Selects: Plant Migration

Climate change is having sweeping effects on our climate and this is changing the world, not just for humans and other animals, but plants too. Will the Earth’s flora manage to find safe refuge in time? Josh and Chuck run down the odds in this classic episode. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Josh Clark?

  When you're in do it yourself mode, the last thing you want to do is drop everything to pick up that one part or tool that you need. That's where My Lowe's Rewards and My Lowe's Pro Rewards come in. Place your order and Lowe's handles the rest. Lowe's will make the run for you with free same-day delivery. Members get more at Lowe's. $25 minimum and loyalty membership required. Order eligible items by 2 p.m. Subject to weight and size restrictions and availability. Terms at Lowe's.com/shipping.

• 0:35Speaker 02

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• 1:17Josh Clark?

  Introducing Voices of VivGart. VivGart is also known as its generic name, Fgart Tigamod Alpha F Cam. And this new show features firsthand stories from people living with a rare disease. Hosted by Andrew Stratton, these perspectives highlight that life is more than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Living with a rare disease can be challenging, but it does not define the Voices of VivGart. In these episodes, they share their stories, from diagnosis to working with their care team on their treatment plan. Listen to Voices of VivGart on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, guys. It's me, Josh. And for this week's select, I've chosen our August 2023 episode on plant migration. This one makes me a brainy boy, what with its earth science

• 2:01Josh Clark?

  and something that goes on under our noses without us really realizing that it's happening. And we figure out that there's a lot to learn about plants on the move, which makes it even sweeter. I hope you love this one as much as I do.

• 2:20Speaker 03

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 2:30Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck and Jerry's here, too. And this is Stuff You Should Know, the We're All Melting Edition.

• 2:38Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'm just a migrating fern.

• 2:42Josh Clark?

  Oh, that's a good one to be.

• 2:44Speaker 04

  Blowing through the forest, looking for a new home.

• 2:48Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 2:49Speaker 04

  I'm a spore.

• 2:50Josh Clark?

  What happens when you get there, spore?

• 2:52Speaker 04

  Well, I'll probably grow into a beautiful new fern, because ferns are pretty hardy.

• 2:58Josh Clark?

  That's awesome. And I'll bet you'll contribute to society in all sorts of beneficial ways that ferns that were already there couldn't necessarily do.

• 3:07Speaker 04

  I hope so. There is fern stuff in here, and I have a wonderful fern scene at my camp

• 3:14Speaker 04

  on the other side of the feeder creek that goes into the main creek. I call it, I even have a sign, this is Fern Forest. And it's a forest of ferns. It's quite lovely.

• 3:23Josh Clark?

  God knows where they're from, because those things can travel quite a bit, as we'll see.

• 3:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, they could be from Alabama.

• 3:31Josh Clark?

  Easily. I'm not kidding. Easily, man. I've got a stat that's gonna blow your mind in a second.

• 3:37Speaker 04

  Oh, boy.

• 3:38Josh Clark?

  Actually, I'll just bust it out now. You ready?

• 3:39Speaker 04

  Yeah. How far can a fern travel?

• 3:42Josh Clark?

  A fern can travel, the Tasmanian tree fern in particular, can send its spores 500 to 800 kilometers. It's 300 to 500 miles from the mother plant. And get this, a single frond, a frond produces more than 750 million of those spores.

• 4:04Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 4:04Josh Clark?

  So you can understand that ferns, I mean, you find ferns everywhere. They're really hardy. They can actually survive colder temperatures than you would think. They also thrive in the tropics. They're like a really great pioneer plant. They usually are among the first large plants that show up in like a newly cleared part of Earth, right?

• 4:26Speaker 04

  This all makes sense, then.

• 4:27Josh Clark?

  Okay, so what we're talking about, then, is that those ferns that showed up in this new place and said, hey, let's get this biosphere going again. Let's get this biome back into shape after this wildfire or something like that. Or there's like a stampede because there was a really great ice cream truck that drove through. One of those two. Those ferns have migrated. They came from Tasmania, apparently, all the way to wherever the ice cream truck was. And now they're there. And so they actually moved in that sense, which is really surprising because plants are what are known as sessile organisms. They don't move from place to place

• 5:08Josh Clark?

  individually as organisms. But as a species, they can actually move around like inchworms pretty good.

• 5:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's pretty cool. I didn't really know much about this. We're talking about plant migration and the idea, well, not idea, the very real fact that, just like humans and animals, will go to more hospitable climes as the climate may change or just, I don't know, just to seek a better place to be. Plants and trees and things en masse do the same thing.

• 5:40Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And there's all sorts of ways that they do that, too. So they do it by dispersing their seeds or their spores, in that case, fern spores or single-celled organisms. They're not like a seed technically, but they do the same thing, right? They show up in a place and set up shop, and they start rocking out.

• 6:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's right. And ferns, you know, it depends, and we'll get all into this stuff, but how fast this happens depends on different factors. How far these plants can migrate depends on different factors. Why this is happening is generally climate change.

• 6:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 6:20Speaker 04

  And plants and trees and things are generally moving north or up in elevation if they hit mountains.

• 6:28Josh Clark?

  Or south in the southern hemisphere.

• 6:31Speaker 04

  Exactly. So that's sort of the general pattern. And we mentioned ferns because, like you said, those spores can really haul. Ferns also mature very quickly. And, you know, the wind can just, that's why I got a fern forest at my camp, probably.

• 6:47Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So they check both of the boxes that you need to be a fast migrating plant species. They produce seeds or spores at a very young age, and their seed or spore can travel very far distances, right?

• 7:01Speaker 04

  Right.

• 7:02Josh Clark?

  So they can move around. And also, it doesn't hurt that, like I said, ferns are adaptable. Trees and other plants don't move quite so fast, but they move, especially if you look at the fossil record, a lot faster than they actually should. So if you pay attention to a single organism, say, an oak, those acorns don't travel terribly far. They may get a little further away from the drip line if a squirrel happens to bury it somewhere and a new oak tree grows.

• 7:30Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 7:31Josh Clark?

  I think it was Anders Sandberg who described acorns as solar-powered factories for producing more oak trees.

• 7:40Speaker 04

  Whoa, Andy Sandberg said that?

• 7:42Josh Clark?

  No, Anders Sandberg.

• 7:44Speaker 04

  Oh, okay.

• 7:45Josh Clark?

  He's a philosopher at Oxford.

• 7:48Speaker 04

  That makes a lot more sense.

• 7:50Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Yeah. Andy Sandberg, he ate his lime accidentally in his Corona bottle. That's what he's got.

• 7:57Speaker 04

  You know who he's married to?

• 8:00Josh Clark?

  Patricia Arquette.

• 8:02Speaker 04

  No.

• 8:03Josh Clark?

  Roseanne Arquette.

• 8:04Speaker 04

  You've been guessing Patricia Arquette for a lot of things lately, I feel like.

• 8:09Josh Clark?

  Have I?

• 8:09Speaker 04

  He's married to, yeah, I feel like that's come up before recently. Maybe, I don't know.

• 8:14Josh Clark?

  Her name just rolls off the tongue.

• 8:16Speaker 04

  I know. A big fan of hers. He is married to, what's her name? Joanna Newsom, the singer and harpist.

• 8:24Josh Clark?

  Oh, neat.

• 8:26Speaker 04

  And if you like, if you're into architecture and homes, you should seek out, I don't know if it was Architectural Digest or something, but someone did a spread on their home, and it is really something else.

• 8:36Josh Clark?

  Okay, so that's Andy Sandberg hour.

• 8:40Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 8:40Josh Clark?

  That we just checked out.

• 8:42Speaker 04

  A quick detour.

• 8:44Josh Clark?

  Wait, wait, I wasn't done.

• 8:45Speaker 04

  Oh, no, go ahead.

• 8:46Josh Clark?

  So if you look at an individual tree, an oak tree, those acorns don't go particularly far away from the tree, as the old saying goes. But the fact that they do fall away from the tree means that very slowly, some of those seedlings are going to grow up a little more northward or a little more southward than its mother plant. And very, very slowly, the whole group of oaks can move southward or northward, right?

• 9:12Speaker 04

  Over hundreds and thousands and tens of thousands of years.

• 9:15Josh Clark?

  So long. The thing is, if you look at the fossil record, they move way faster than that, than they should. And there's actually a paradox that was named by a guy named Clement Reed, right?

• 9:29Speaker 04

  Reed's Paradox.

• 9:30Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he's got a great, great title for it.

• 9:32Speaker 04

  Of Rapid Plant Migration. That's the full title.

• 9:34Josh Clark?

  It sounds almost like snake oil from the 19th century.

• 9:37Speaker 04

  Yeah, it kind of does.

• 9:40Josh Clark?

  So what is it?

• 9:41Speaker 04

  Oh, okay. I didn't hear you set me up. We're still tight after all these years.

• 9:45Josh Clark?

  For sure.

• 9:46Speaker 04

  So what he found from the fossil record, like you were talking about, and as we'll see, that's one, like, you know, a pretty good way to study this stuff, especially pollen fossils, right?

• 9:55Josh Clark?

  Yeah, because they're so hardy.

• 9:57Speaker 04

  Yeah, so he saw that trees were migrating a lot faster than like the rate that you would think. And so he, like, those oaks, I think, was one example you gave on the British Isles. After the last glacial period over a span of like 10,000 years or so, they traveled about 600 miles, and it would normally take about a million years if the seeds were just dispersed in a typical way. But what he figured was that what may be happening here is like some weird weather event happens that sent things much farther than usual, or like some deer or something

• 10:39Speaker 04

  eats something and then poops out something really far away from where it started. And so all of a sudden, this animal has spread it via their poo poo.

• 10:50Josh Clark?

  Right, and this, this is how like, large-scale migration happens, or I should say rapid migration over long distances, right?

• 10:59Speaker 04

  Right, yeah.

• 10:59Josh Clark?

  It's the, it's the unusual, not just the acorn falling and hitting the ground. It's not just gravity assisted, it's animal assisted, which is called zucory, or it's wind assisted, which is called a nemocory, or water assisted, which is called hydrocory. And that's just the way that some plants disperse their seeds, that's kind of on top of the normal way they disperse it, which is just dropping it from their leaves, or the spores blowing on the wind, which I guess is one type of quarry.

• 11:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, so like if a squirrel loaded up its mouthful of things and somehow found its way into your camper as you set off for Arizona.

• 11:36Josh Clark?

  That would be a freak event, sure.

• 11:39Speaker 04

  And it probably wouldn't be en masse, but, you know, that's a way a tree could move.

• 11:44Josh Clark?

  All it takes is that one, that one oak to make it

• 11:46Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 11:47Josh Clark?

  to just survive, and then it starts its own new part of the range.

• 11:53Speaker 04

  Yeah, absolutely. And we also should point out, when was, when was Reed doing this? This is a while ago, like 100-plus years ago, right?

• 12:00Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he was a geologist, I don't know if we said, but his, Reed's Paradox of Rapid Plant Migration came out in 1899, and it was a smash hit.

• 12:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, so people, I mean, for at least that long, science has been sort of curious about this, this migration happening at a rate that they would not expect.

• 12:20Josh Clark?

  Right. The thing is, is that it's really hard, when you throw in the X-factor, to calculate how fast an actual species can migrate. And there's a few ways that you can study that kind of thing. One, as you said, is studying the fossil record, which is super helpful, but it's not showing you what's going on contemporaneously, or within the last couple decades. This is 10,000, a million years ago, something like that, right?

• 12:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, so if you wanted to study something a little closer to home, timeline-wise, you would maybe set up what's called a permanent vegetation plot. So you would just, you would mark off an area, and you would go back there, you know, every so often, like every six months or every year or so, and just sort of chart what's happening. That's one really good way. I think they've been doing this for about 100 years, since the 1920s, so we've got a pretty good data set there. Something else you could do is go somewhere, like, let's say you dug up some cool scientific journal from a scientist from, you know, 200 years ago that went and explored some island.

• 13:31Speaker 04

  And while they may not have like, charted everything out exactly like you would in today's science, they may have a really nice diary about all the plant life there, and things that they saw there, and where it might be, and you could go back to that place, and it's not quite as tight of a record, but you could still get a pretty good idea of what's happening.

• 13:48Josh Clark?

  Yeah, depending on whose journal you're working from. And back in 2012, a Danish team of scientists followed the record left by a 19th-century geologist named Alexander von Humboldt, from Germany, who was just an interesting dude in and of himself. He called coffee concentrated sunbeams, so he's my kind of guy.

• 14:09Speaker 04

  Oh, man, that's great.

• 14:10Josh Clark?

  They went back to Chimborazo volcano in Ecuador, which Humboldt studied in detail. And not only did he study the vegetation there, and he classified all sorts of new plants that Europeans didn't know about at that point, he also noted exactly where they were on the mountain, as far as the elevation went.

• 14:29Speaker 04

  Super helpful.

• 14:29Josh Clark?

  Super helpful. So based on this information, the 2012 Danes were able to go back and recreate his trip, and then they were able to note what plants were where, and they found that everything, all species on average, had moved up the mountain by about, an average of about 500 meters, which is significant. It's like, almost a mile, it's like eight tenths of a mile.

• 14:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, that's the average.

• 14:57Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 14:58Speaker 04

  There was a lot of variation within that, but that's, that's a long way.

• 15:01Josh Clark?

  For sure.

• 15:02Speaker 04

  And what we found out, and I guess this comes up a little later, but a plant can find more hospitable climbs going up 500 meters than they might by going, let's just say, north, like 90 to 100 miles.

• 15:17Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 15:17Speaker 04

  So like a much quicker road to better climbs, if you just go up that mountain.

• 15:23Josh Clark?

  For sure. Yeah, that's kind of two ways they move, is longitudinally?

• 15:29Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:30Josh Clark?

  Or altitudinally?

• 15:32Speaker 04

  You gotta be in shape, though.

• 15:33Josh Clark?

  Oh, for sure.

• 15:34Speaker 04

  If you're gonna climb that mountain.

• 15:37Speaker 04

  Should we take a break?

• 15:38Josh Clark?

  I think we should, but just to wrap it up real quick, there's a bunch of ways you can study the movement of trees, but it's so slow, and it happens over such long timelines, longer than a human timeline, that it's harder to do than you'd think. But we still have figured out some ways to do it.

• 15:53Speaker 04

  All right, we'll be right back, and we'll talk about all this stuff in more detail right after this.

• 16:11Josh Clark?

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• 16:34Josh Clark?

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• 17:14Josh Clark?

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• 18:01Josh Clark?

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• 18:20Speaker 05

  First thought is like, wow, how are we gonna do all this?

• 18:22Josh Clark?

  Hey, this is Josh and Chuck from Stuff You Should Know.

• 18:25Speaker 04

  That's Alan Goya, planning engineer at AT&T, and he's talking about Intuit Dome, home of the Los Angeles Clippers, where every seat, screen, phone, and transaction is connected with AT&T fiber and 5G, redefining the fan's experience. And Alan's master plan made it all possible.

• 18:41Speaker 05

  It was gonna rival anything that was already built, and that takes quite a bit of people and different teams to all be on the same page.

• 18:49Josh Clark?

  That includes field services manager Drexel Jones. His team made sure it all came together and held up on game day.

• 18:55Speaker 06

  Through what Alan's whole crew designed, we connected the event visitors to the world.

• 19:01Speaker 04

  And after years of hard work and collaboration, it was opening night.

• 19:04Speaker 06

  To actually see the whole stadium light up and data's flowing is a beautiful thing.

• 19:09Speaker 05

  With the fan's experience, it's incredible. It gave me a lot of pride.

• 19:12Josh Clark?

  AT&T, connecting fans to what they love.

• 19:16Speaker 07

  Connecting changes everything. AT&T.

• 19:29Speaker 04

  One other way we failed to mention, probably would have been better to just say that before the break, but again, still learning after 16 years.

• 19:36Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 19:37Speaker 04

  Satellite images is another way that you can study on the short term. You know, the fossil pollen is much longer and those plant plots and things like that, vegetation plots are shorter term, but satellite images can also help.

• 19:52Josh Clark?

  Yeah. If you want to catch like a Venus flytrap and the act of leapfrogging over some other plant, satellite image is going to help you with that. Fossil record won't show you that.

• 20:02Speaker 04

  Here's the thing with all this, though. It's not like we're going to talk a lot about climate change because that's what's spurring a lot of the movement right now. But the Earth's climate has changed a lot over the, you know, over the years. And this is not some new thing. There used to be periods of time where the Sahara Desert was quite green and there was grasses growing there and tropical plants growing there and elephants roaming the Sahara and wildlife living there. And they've learned that this is actually one of the things that helped move, you know, humans around. Like, humans could actually migrate through the Sahara with much more ease than they could before during these green Sahara periods.

• 20:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah. That's so fascinating that, you know, who knows when we would have migrated out of Africa into Europe and the Azores had the green Sahara not happened? Isn't that just nuts?

• 20:55Speaker 04

  Yeah. Like, hundreds of miles, it says here, that they would find tropical plants growing where they shouldn't be growing alongside, you know, the desert stuff that survived. So that was this weird sort of mixed up biome for a time.

• 21:08Josh Clark?

  Yeah. In the green Sahara period, there were a few of them that have been documented, but they figured out that they happen about every 23,000 years.

• 21:16Speaker 04

  Right.

• 21:16Josh Clark?

  We're due for one in about 12,000 years, something like that. And it's based on the tilt in Earth's axis. That's neither here nor there. But the point is, is during these, these periods where the Sahara was just a humid kind of tropical forest, there was a mixture, kind of what you touched upon, of different, like you said, a hybrid biome of stuff that wouldn't necessarily live together under normal circumstances, but got along just famously in the couple thousand years that the Sahara was green and those plants were growing together.

• 21:50Speaker 04

  Yeah. It's just amazing to think about.

• 21:52Josh Clark?

  And then in North America, we have another example, too. After the Laurentide Glacier, which is way up in the Arctic right now, used to be down in Indiana and northern New Jersey.

• 22:04Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 22:05Josh Clark?

  And when it retreated, it took everything with it. It took bowlers, it carved out lakes, it did all sorts of neat stuff. But what it didn't leave behind was vegetation. So it left, it was like a giant ice cream truck, basically.

• 22:17Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 22:18Josh Clark?

  It left nothing behind and it was just a great place for plants to pioneer and colonize.

• 22:23Speaker 04

  Yeah. I mean, that's why you have pine trees in New Jersey, right?

• 22:27Josh Clark?

  I would think so. Yeah. Or in the South, because they were too far, they were trapped below, or yeah, below the Laurentide Glacier down in the Southeast, even though they normally would have been growing in the North, right? And as the glacier retreated, the climate changed in that area and so the trees just moved on up. So that's an example of migration as well.

• 22:51Speaker 04

  Yeah. Oh, wait, I thought they, I thought they were, it was more hospitable in the South for these trees and that migration sent them north.

• 22:59Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's what I said, right?

• 23:01Speaker 04

  Oh, okay. Maybe I heard you wrong.

• 23:03Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 23:04Speaker 04

  The other thing we should talk about as far as climate change goes, because like I said, we're going to mention that a lot, is the rate of change of the climate is increasing, as most people agree on. And that is kind of where we are now in discussing this, is like, is the rate of climate increasing too fast for the plant migration to catch up? Or in some cases, are the plants migrating ahead of that pace? And that's really sort of, you know, a lot of this episode is about this rate of change. In the 200 years since the beginning of the Industrial Age, no coincidence, the temperature of the Earth has increased more than one degree.

• 23:46Josh Clark?

  Celsius, right?

• 23:47Speaker 04

  And again, yeah, we all know now that, you know, one degree is like a huge, huge deal.

• 23:52Josh Clark?

  It's 1.8 degrees Fahrenheit.

• 23:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly. But 0.37 of that change over the past 200 years has come since 2011.

• 24:03Josh Clark?

  Yes, dude.

• 24:04Speaker 04

  So it's, people have, you know, someone has stepped on the gas here.

• 24:08Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 24:09Speaker 04

  And it's happening much, much faster and seemingly in many cases, faster than these plants can catch up.

• 24:15Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So plants are used to migrating, like, they've been migrating through our Earth's history, but these conditions are different. It's not like it was before, even when the Earth was heating up after the last Ice Age. I think, did you say that it took about an average of 1,400 years to increase by one degree after the last glacial period?

• 24:35Speaker 04

  No, no, that was the setup that would have been very helpful, actually.

• 24:38Josh Clark?

  I mean, think about it. So we've achieved one degree in 200 years and after the last glacial period ended, the Earth heated one degree every 1,400 years.

• 24:50Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's called a rapid increase.

• 24:52Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Like you said, somebody's put their foot on the gas and that somebody is Western industrialized nations, right?

• 24:57Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 24:58Josh Clark?

  So that's, that's one thing that's really kind of putting the heat on plants, literally, is their southernmost ranges or their northernmost ranges, depending on what, I guess their equatorial pointing ranges, where it's hotter.

• 25:14Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 25:15Josh Clark?

  Those are the ones that are really at stake. So are those plants ranges big enough that they'll be able to survive that change in climate and just keep moving northward? Or are they going to be outpaced by the movement of the climate? Because the climate is racing toward the poles, just like the plants are, right?

• 25:34Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 25:34Josh Clark?

  So who's faster? Well, it turns out, if you talk about New England's trees, they move something, I think red oaks is what it was, that this University of Vermont group was studying, they move something like a tenth to three tenths of a mile a year, right?

• 25:52Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 25:53Josh Clark?

  The climate is moving something like four to six miles a year. So the climate is really kind of showing up as kind of the Usain Bolt of this race. And I don't know, the plants are like me, racing Usain Bolt.

• 26:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, that lab group in Vermont, they all have T-shirts that just say, "You do the math."

• 26:15Josh Clark?

  Exactly.

• 26:16Speaker 04

  It's very smarmy, but they get their point across.

• 26:18Josh Clark?

  For sure.

• 26:21Speaker 04

  There's another example of, and you know, we've kind of been talking about northern, northern movement, which is generally the pattern, but not always. There's a researcher at Purdue named Songlin Fei, I think Fei or Phi?

• 26:34Josh Clark?

  I don't know.

• 26:35Speaker 04

  F E I, I bet it's Phi, who studied 86 species of trees in the eastern US over about 30 years, from the mid 80s to 2015. And it depends on what the tree is. Hardwoods, scarlet oaks, red maples, magnolias are moving west at about one and a half kilometers a year because the Midwest is becoming more wet and the conditions are good for those trees to grow. Softwoods, shortleaf pines, red pines, bald cypress, they're actually moving north about a kilometer of the year, a kilometer a year. So different plants and trees are moving in different directions at different rates.

• 27:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's very much akin to a neighborhood that's this old settled-in neighborhood with a bunch of mix of people that's being gentrified, it's being pushed out and separated. Not everybody just, the whole neighborhood doesn't just move, this neighborhood breaks up and goes in different directions.

• 27:34Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 27:35Josh Clark?

  And so to ecologists and arborists, like, this is very concerning because for a long time, we've looked at groups of plants as communities. Like, some, some plants go with other plants. Like, I think, what is it, beech and hickory? Where is it?

• 27:55Speaker 04

  I don't know. I like hickory, though.

• 27:59Josh Clark?

  We can't, we can't leave that in there. Oh, yeah, hemlocks. I knew it was an H tree.

• 28:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 28:04Josh Clark?

  Beech and hemlocks go together like peanut butter and chocolate.

• 28:07Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 28:08Josh Clark?

  So too do like firs and spruces, right? So when you find one of these, you usually find the other one. And there's also a bunch of other plants that kind of interact and usually some types of animals that hang out in those same types of forests. So if you've got the hemlocks going north and the beech going west, who are the hemlocks going to mix with and who are the beech going to mix with when they start to set up these new communities? And that was really troubling to ecologists. But I think palaeontologists, these fossil pollen scientists, have said, "It's always been this way. Communities aren't permanent. They're kind of unstable. They just seem permanent to us because our life years, our lifespans on the order of like 70, 80 years, right?"

• 28:50Speaker 04

  Right.

• 28:51Josh Clark?

  This is much, it's a much slower process, but it's a constantly changing turnover. So it's not that big of a deal. But again, because of the pace of climate change, when these hemlocks get further north and the beech get further west, they're going to have far less time to develop new connections and networks with the new plants that they set up communities with.

• 29:12Speaker 04

  Yeah. And the other thing, too, you know, earlier when I mentioned that a series of trees might move up a mountainside, because it's a way quicker way to get to a more hospitable climate than moving that 90 miles north.

• 29:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 29:28Speaker 04

  When they, and this happens in other cases as well, it's not just like up a mountainside. But when they get to the place where they're going, it may be a better place, maybe more hospitable climate-wise, but other things aren't so great. So if you move up that mountain slope, let's say you have shallower soil, and so those trees move up there because the climate's better, but then they get there and the soil isn't as great, so they get squeezed into where they can grow, maybe into like a tiny little narrow band that's, you know, potentially choking off the rest of the forest.

• 30:03Josh Clark?

  Yeah. I figured out it's kind of like hiding in a closet during a house fire. Like, you're going to be safe in the short term, but in the long term, it's not a great strategy. But it's not like the trees have any choice. They can't go back down, it's too hot there, they can't move further up, there's, the soil's inhospitable. So they're trapped and they're eventually going to become a thinner and thinner band until they just pop out of existence.

• 30:27Speaker 04

  That's right. And the other thing that can happen, too, when, like you said, when they get to a new place and they don't have enough time to make new friends, all of a sudden, that can open the window for bad friends to show up.

• 30:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 30:40Speaker 04

  And all of a sudden, invasive species are there and then you've got a whole other set of problems.

• 30:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah. The ones that wear like leather jackets with the little silver studs on their shoulders. Those are the ones you gotta watch out for, those plants.

• 30:54Speaker 04

  Uh, this all seems very kind of, um, on too long of a timeline for you to care. First of all, you probably don't care much about climate change, because that's the whole name of the game there.

• 31:04Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 31:06Speaker 04

  But maple syrup is a good example that Livia found. Livia helped us out, and she did a great job with this. The maple tree, uh, which species is it? The sugar maple is one of the two main species that we use to get that delicious maple syrup.

• 31:20Josh Clark?

  I'm sorry, just as an aside, sugar maple are two beautiful words that form an even more beautiful.

• 31:27Speaker 04

  You are right on the money, my friend.

• 31:28Josh Clark?

  You know?

• 31:29Speaker 04

  Sugar maple. It just sounds nice coming out of my mouth.

• 31:32Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 31:34Speaker 04

  They have been migrating, uh, north into Canada, and you might say, well, that's great. Canada's a fine place to live, and I'm sure they love their maple syrup there, too. But, uh, in Quebec, the researchers have found that they're not gonna go beyond their current range up there, because the, they're boreal forests up there. So the soil, again, they, the climate might be better, but then they get up there and the soil pH and the microbe content in the soil is not what they're used to and not what they work well with and grow well with. So they're not doing well up there in the forest.

• 32:08Josh Clark?

  No, no, and that's, it's, it's the exact same position as the, the trees that are trying to go up the mountain are running into. Eventually, these trees that are moving into the boreal forest areas, they're, like, they can't go any further. Like, they're not adapted to that. Over a long enough timeline.

• 32:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, maybe.

• 32:26Josh Clark?

  Those sugar maples could, like, a few of them could land in the boreal forest and end up surviving in that kind of soil. And then they would be adapted for it, and they'd start reproducing. And then as the boreal forests move closer to the poles or the Arctic, the, those trees would move where the boreal forests used to be, right? Totally not a problem over a long enough time span. Again, climate change has so drastically shortened that time span that there's probably not gonna be time for this, and those sugar maples will just run into that boreal soil and just, they, they'll, it'll be like hitting a brick wall for their species.

• 33:01Speaker 04

  Yeah. Uh, another issue that can happen, and I know this all just seems like doomsday stuff.

• 33:07Josh Clark?

  Kind of is.

• 33:08Speaker 04

  It kind of is, though. Uh, let's say, like, the Amazon episode that we talked about, when trees are moving out there, um, they might be replaced by something, and it may not be an invasive species, but it may just be weeds or grasses or something. Uh, those aren't as good at capturing carbon as those trees were. So then that accelerates the problem even more.

• 33:30Josh Clark?

  Right. Um, and then there's another, if you wanna keep talking about doomsday scenarios, um, those boreal forests, they actually are, if you look at a, a map, or if you look at Planet Earth from outer space. They're dark, which means that they absorb more sunlight, more heat, more UV radiation than the polar caps, the ice that reflects it back into space. So as those boreal forests advance further and further north toward the, toward the Arctic or the, um, North Pole, and there's less and less ice to reflect it, there's more and more heat for them to trap, which is just going to heat the Earth up that much faster. It's a, it's a positive feedback loop that's super duper negative.

• 34:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, very negative. Um, maybe we should cover tropical things moving north and then take a break?

• 34:20Josh Clark?

  Yeah, cuz I got some good stuff on that, man. I'm super excited.

• 34:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, it goes both ways. So you can have, like, uh, tropical plants in tropical zones like Florida, where, you know, the Earth is warming, so they can move further and further north, and all of a sudden, these plants that are native to tropical zones are ending up in areas where it's, um, you know, not necessarily a tropical zone. Uh, I can't remember which zone. Atlantis.

• 34:48Josh Clark?

  Atlantis, um, 7B and 8A.

• 34:51Speaker 04

  Seven, I love that you know that stuff. Uh, but the point is, like, these, um, these, like, uh, kill, killfrost that you might get that happen to, I love that name, killfrost. Uh, like, it'll get really cold and frost over and, like, kill things, maybe that shouldn't be there. If that's happening less and less, then there's even less in the way of those tropical plants moving northward.

• 35:14Josh Clark?

  Right. And so the, the, I guess climatologists are expecting that by the end of the century, which seems like a long way away, but buddy, that's like, less than, that's like eight decades, 70 something years, maybe even 77, you could say, to be exact. But in 77 years, climatologists expect all of Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California, I'm guessing the southern half, to be tropical. Those are subtropical now. If you want an example of what a tropical, um, country is, go to Ecuador. Go to, um, Guatemala. Those are tropical, and Alabama and Arizona are going to be like

• 35:59Josh Clark?

  Guatemala by the end of the century.

• 36:01Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 36:02Josh Clark?

  That's insane.

• 36:04Speaker 04

  I know. It's really, uh, and it's happening. It's not like, um, like, they, they've, they've shown that it's currently happening.

• 36:11Josh Clark?

  Yes, and it's happening because, like you were saying, those extreme cold events are becoming rarer and they're becoming warmer. So the coldest day of the year is not as cold as it used to be, in other words.

• 36:21Speaker 04

  I think the scientific term is killfrost.

• 36:24Josh Clark?

  I love that. That is definitely a band name.

• 36:27Speaker 04

  Oh, for sure. Like, what are they, though?

• 36:29Josh Clark?

  Kill, oh, um, I don't know, they could be all sorts of things.

• 36:32Speaker 04

  Heavy or something, right?

• 36:33Josh Clark?

  I don't know. Remember Destroyer? They were great. They didn't really, they had, like, kind of like a, a bellying name, you know what I mean?

• 36:40Speaker 04

  No, that's true.

• 36:41Josh Clark?

  So it could be like that.

• 36:43Speaker 04

  I think he named the band that, uh, for that reason, is a bit of a tongue-in-cheek thing, maybe.

• 36:47Josh Clark?

  I, I knew I liked that guy.

• 36:51Speaker 04

  Behar is who we're talking about. Not Joy.

• 36:54Josh Clark?

  Tony.

• 36:56Speaker 04

  Tony Behar.

• 36:56Josh Clark?

  Todd.

• 36:57Speaker 04

  No, it's, uh, Dan, I think, right?

• 36:59Josh Clark?

  I don't know. I just know a couple of Destroyer songs. I don't have to know the guy's life story, do I?

• 37:04Speaker 04

  Well.

• 37:07Speaker 04

  Settle down. Uh, no, I wanted to look it up, because he is, uh, he's also a part-time member of, uh, maybe my favorite all-time, uh, band, The New Pornographers, like, modern band.

• 37:17Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 37:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, he's, he's on most of their albums, but hasn't done the past few.

• 37:22Josh Clark?

  Who was the singer for New Pornographers? Was it Nico Case?

• 37:26Speaker 04

  Well, she sings and Carl Newman sings, and also, uh, the great Catherine Calder, who is a Stuff You Should Know listener.

• 37:33Josh Clark?

  Oh, neat. Oh, wow.

• 37:35Speaker 04

  Yeah. I found that out, and I was like, oh, I gotta get in touch with her. And I did, and now we are email buddies. And on the last, uh, New Pornographers show in Atlanta, she was kind enough to meet me behind the bus, as they say.

• 37:50Speaker 04

  Uh, in the back parking lot, and we chatted for a while, and she's just wonderful. And, uh, she also, I'm gonna plug her other band, cuz she has, uh, put out a great album, uh, last year with her band Front Person. So get Front Person. If you like synthy goodness and, like, a beautiful angelic voice, then get Front Person.

• 38:11Josh Clark?

  Speaking of synthy goodness, it's so funny you bring that up. Just today, I discovered an entirely new genre of music called Dungeon Synth. Have you heard of it?

• 38:19Speaker 04

  What? No.

• 38:21Josh Clark?

  Okay, okay. It's the, a really well-named genre, but it is synth, super, like, synthy synth, like 80s kind of synth.

• 38:30Speaker 04

  I love it.

• 38:31Josh Clark?

  But the kind of synth that you would find is like the, the, the score to a 70s Hobbit, like, cartoon movie, animated movie. It's super wizardy and fantasy. It, it just evokes all that stuff, and it does such a good job of it. But I've only heard one album. I can't remember whose it was, but check out.

• 38:52Speaker 04

  Killfrost.

• 38:54Josh Clark?

  Check out Dungeon Synth. Yeah, Killfrost is a Dungeon Synth band. Nice work.

• 38:58Speaker 04

  All right, Dungeon Synth and the Front Person album, uh, their most recent one, Parade, is great.

• 39:03Josh Clark?

  Very nice. I think it's.

• 39:04Speaker 04

  Full stop.

• 39:05Josh Clark?

  Time for a, uh, break.

• 39:07Speaker 04

  Yeah, let's take a break. We'll be back with more album reviews right after this.

• 39:25Josh Clark?

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• 39:34Speaker 04

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• 39:47Josh Clark?

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• 40:03Speaker 04

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• 40:27Josh Clark?

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• 40:50Speaker 04

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• 41:14Josh Clark?

  That's pretty awesome. And Smart Downloads automatically downloads videos by your favorite creators, so even if you forget to download it ahead of time, Premium has you covered. So if you like YouTube, you'll love Premium. Sign up now for your free trial. Terms and conditions apply.

• 41:35Speaker 04

  You know, you're never done decorating your home. You know what I mean?

• 41:38Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 41:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, because it's a process. There's always something you could do, or buy, or update. The only question is, what's next? For us, our animals just wear out our rugs so quickly, it's usually a new rug.

• 41:49Josh Clark?

  Well, Chuck, whether you need a rug, or whatever is next for you, you can go to Wayfair. It's the smart place to get it.

• 41:56Speaker 04

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• 42:07Josh Clark?

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• 42:41Josh Clark?

  So Chuck, one thing you can say about humans is that we are action-oriented.

• 42:47Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 42:48Josh Clark?

  In a lot of ways. I will give you that.

• 42:50Speaker 04

  It depends.

• 42:50Josh Clark?

  We sit around and bicker, and complain, and moan, and undermine one another. But when the chips are down, we can invent our way out of a lot of problems. And invention doesn't have to necessarily mean that we, you know, put some metal on metal and made it go on its own. It can be something like inventing new areas for species that are in danger of being lost to climate change to settle and make another part of their range out of.

• 43:21Speaker 04

  Well, sir, it sounds like you were talking about forest-assisted migration.

• 43:25Josh Clark?

  By God, I am.

• 43:27Speaker 04

  That's right. And that is basically, and we'll talk about the good, the bad, and the ugly of this, that is, human beings, scientists, getting involved in the ecosystem and nature, and spreading seed, and sort of getting ahead of the pace, if the pace isn't where it should be, to keep up with climate change, saying, well, let me give you a little help forward. And this is, can be kind of thorny, because it's, it's humans, like I said, getting involved in the ecosystem in ways that science has long said, let nature work it out, and that's the best way to do it, because you don't know what can happen once you start messing around.

• 44:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah, like, nature finds a way.

• 44:09Speaker 04

  It does.

• 44:10Josh Clark?

  These guys are saying, the people who are in favor of this are saying, that made sense before July 2023, which is probably the hottest month in Earth's history, at least as far as since it cooled, basically. And that followed the hottest June ever, right? So they're, these ecologists that are like, no, we need to take much more of an active hand in this, are saying, like, it's our obligation to do something. Not doing anything is going to be more destructive. It's like saying, like, yeah, we shouldn't move these people out of this house that's being bulldozed over, because we don't know what they're going to do in their new neighborhood. So we're just going to stand there and watch

• 44:50Josh Clark?

  them die as the bulldozer crushes them inside of their house. That's a pretty good analogy, if I do congratulate myself here. It's very much akin to that. And so those ecologists have a pretty good point. Like, it's like, yeah, it's not a great, perfect solution, but it's way better than doing nothing.

• 45:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, but, and they're not, they're not doing it willy-nilly, though. They're very aware of the potential pitfalls, like, you know, spreading disease and introducing something to an area that could be really bad for other things in that area. So they're not just out there, you know, with a seed cannon blasting stuff all over the place, like Dolph Lundgren or something.

• 45:30Josh Clark?

  Wearing bike coat shorts.

• 45:34Speaker 04

  There's a couple of different kinds, though. There's forest-assisted migration. The one that's really sort of thorny is assisted range expansion. So, like, if you're interested, if you're spreading something within the zone where it might still normally grow in like 200 years, that's one thing. If you're moving something completely out of that range, like, you know, they do forecasting and stuff, and they're like, what might this area look like 100 miles from here, 100 years from now? If they're moving something completely out of a range that it would even potentially grow, that gets way, way trickier. And I think there's less of that happening, right?

• 46:13Josh Clark?

  Yes, for sure. Like, but you hit it on the head. They're, they're saying, like, okay, by 2100, what is this area going to be like? Is it going to be like where these red oaks like to live now in 2023? And if so, maybe we can give them a head start and hope that some of them will survive and adapt and start colonizing there, right?

• 46:33Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 46:33Josh Clark?

  It gets even pricklier than assisted range expansion. There's another, even more radical one, called species rescue, or assisted species migration. And that is where you take a plant completely out of its normal range, out of what you would even predict would be its normal range, and just move it somewhere it would never be.

• 46:54Speaker 04

  Right.

• 46:54Josh Clark?

  This is considered the riskiest of the three by ecologists, because you can easily take something that's totally innocuous and benign under normal circumstances and make it into an invasive species when you move it. And the critics of this typically point to the Monterey pine as a good example.

• 47:13Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's right. It's endangered in California. It is native to California. But they have introduced it in Australia, and it's, I don't know about wreaking havoc, but, but it's damaging the, it's an invasive species on Australia.

• 47:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah, for sure. They consider it a weed, and when they see it, they pluck it. They do not like those in New South Wales and Victoria, I believe, states.

• 47:37Speaker 04

  Now, that's a weed.

• 47:40Speaker 04

  I don't know.

• 47:41Josh Clark?

  That's okay.

• 47:41Speaker 04

  Wasn't my best.

• 47:42Josh Clark?

  No. I'm going to have to agree with you on that. I think you just, you just came up with a brand-new type of accent, frankly.

• 47:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 47:49Josh Clark?

  Can we hear it again?

• 47:51Speaker 04

  No.

• 47:52Josh Clark?

  Okay. I'm just going to go back and replay it.

• 47:55Speaker 04

  You know, it's funny, though, is I use my, the lady on my phone that talks to me, what's it called on Apple?

• 48:01Josh Clark?

  Siri.

• 48:02Speaker 04

  Siri, I guess. I don't use Siri, but I still have a voice for Maps and stuff. And I use a, I usually go between an Irish woman and a Kiwi, a New Zealander.

• 48:12Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah?

• 48:13Speaker 04

  And the New Zealander says, "Ride," and it always cracks me up.

• 48:17Josh Clark?

  That sounds like Matthew McConaughey.

• 48:19Speaker 04

  It does. "At the next street, take a ride."

• 48:23Josh Clark?

  I gotta hear that. I didn't know you could do something that gee whiz to an Apple iPhone. Make it talk like a...

• 48:29Speaker 04

  Some, some regular old thing?

• 48:31Josh Clark?

  I don't do, like, sounds, digital sounds are one of those, like, I don't have misophonia, but if I do, it's for digital sounds. Like, when I get a new computer, the first thing I do is turn off all sounds on it. Like, any bongs and bongs have to go. Like, I have to change my text sound every month or so, because I'll just get, like, anxiety from it. I can't stand text sound, so I have to come up with a new one. I do not like them.

• 48:56Speaker 04

  Well, you know what I do, is I record, I record my own text and phone rings and stuff.

• 49:01Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah?

• 49:02Speaker 04

  Yeah, I record my voice. Like, when my phone rings, I never have my ringer on, but if it ever does, it's me going, "Ring, ring, ring, ring."

• 49:09Josh Clark?

  That's awesome.

• 49:10Speaker 04

  And if I get a text, it's me going, "Text, man."

• 49:13Josh Clark?

  That's great.

• 49:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, and I get strange looks, but who cares?

• 49:16Josh Clark?

  Can I just use yours?

• 49:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'll send it to you if you want.

• 49:19Josh Clark?

  Thank you.

• 49:20Speaker 04

  Yeah. Or you can, like, you can make one specific for Yumi, which is like, maybe just her sweet voice saying, "Hello, my love."

• 49:28Josh Clark?

  I used to have a ringtone with her singing that part from What's Love Got To Do With It, that...

• 49:34Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly.

• 49:35Josh Clark?

  Oh, but she just kept saying that over and over again. It was pretty great.

• 49:38Speaker 04

  Oh, I'd love to hear that. It's also kind of maddening.

• 49:41Josh Clark?

  Yeah. No, it never was, actually. I never got sick of that one. I think that says a lot.

• 49:46Speaker 04

  But it's better than, "Doodloo doo, doodloo doo doo."

• 49:48Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Man, you just stressed me out.

• 49:51Speaker 04

  Sorry.

• 49:52Josh Clark?

  You got anything else?

• 49:54Speaker 04

  Uh, no. I had a joke about your dislike of digital sounds, but your love of craft work flies in the face of that, but I won't even say it.

• 50:01Josh Clark?

  That's more a statement than a joke.

• 50:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, true.

• 50:04Josh Clark?

  But it is true. It's quite accurate. I think that's it, Chuck.

• 50:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, I got nothing else. This is, this is a good one. Look out, you know, if you're in, if you're in New Mexico and you see a palm tree growing, then watch out.

• 50:18Josh Clark?

  That's right. It means that you've gone tropical, and you're in trouble now.

• 50:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, not in a good way.

• 50:24Josh Clark?

  Uh, if you want to know more about plant migration, there's a lot of interesting stuff out there on the internet to read, and go do that. And maybe go become an ecologist and figure out how to save the planet, please.

• 50:36Speaker 04

  I agree.

• 50:37Josh Clark?

  Since Chuck said agreed, it's time for listener mail.

• 50:42Speaker 04

  This is from William Lloyd. We did a shorty on the NATO phonetic alphabet. And what we didn't consider was this. Hey, guys. Being a pilot in prior air force, I was glad that you did one on this topic. It's not a correction. You guys did a good job. But you missed what I think is the best part, the numbers. The NATO alphabet is kind of a misnomer because it actually also includes numbers zero through nine, but you can't really make a word starting from a number. So it's purely pronunciation. Most numbers are the same with a notable exception of niner. We use niner instead of nine because

• 51:21Speaker 04

  over garbled radio, it sounds like five, but mainly because NATO countries speak German, nine means no in German.

• 51:29Josh Clark?

  Nice.

• 51:30Speaker 04

  Three is pronounced tree, to not be confused with the antiquated prefix sri, s-r-i. Four is two syllables, rhymes with lower. So you'd say four. Sounds kind of funny to differentiate it from, you know, F-O-R. And five is fife, to keep the word fire distinct in some dialects.

• 51:55Josh Clark?

  Huh.

• 51:56Speaker 04

  This is good stuff. I feel dumb that we missed that. That's all interesting, but you're probably thinking, does anyone actually say it like that? It depends. Niner is pretty universal. Plus, we think it makes us sound cool, which it does, of course. The rest are much less common, but depending where you are in the world and what dialects are involved, they're useful from time to time. Signed, Tailwinds Decker.

• 52:18Josh Clark?

  That's awesome. And also, what a great nickname, too. I hope that's your nickname and your parents didn't actually name you Tailwinds.

• 52:24Speaker 04

  Well, no, no, no. Decker is the name. Tailwinds was the...

• 52:28Josh Clark?

  Oh, the sign off?

• 52:29Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 52:30Josh Clark?

  The cheers or the one love?

• 52:31Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 52:33Josh Clark?

  So Decker's the first name?

• 52:35Speaker 04

  Well, I don't know. It's just Decker. Decker may be a call sign, actually.

• 52:38Josh Clark?

  All right. Well, I love that. Thanks a lot, Decker. Much appreciated. I say niner whenever the occasion arises, you know?

• 52:45Speaker 04

  I like that. You know, our good friend, Joe Randazzo, formerly of The Onion and at midnight fame, our comedy writer friend, he signs his emails, yours with a comma, Joe Randazzo.

• 53:00Josh Clark?

  That's great. That's very warm.

• 53:02Speaker 04

  I think yours is, yeah, it's very, very warm, as is Joe.

• 53:04Josh Clark?

  Sure. It's perfect for him.

• 53:06Speaker 04

  And as always, hi to the kids.

• 53:08Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 53:09Speaker 04

  Joe's kids who listen.

• 53:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah, the Randazos.

• 53:12Speaker 04

  Their listening family.

• 53:13Josh Clark?

  The Flying Randazos. Their trapeze artist family just waiting to happen.

• 53:16Speaker 04

  They should be.

• 53:17Josh Clark?

  Well, we'll see. A lot's gonna happen by the end of the century, apparently. So who knows?

• 53:23Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 53:24Josh Clark?

  Well, if you want to get in touch with us like Decker did and confuse me with your sign off, I'd appreciate it. So would Chuck, too. He loves that kind of thing. You can wrap it up, spank it on the bottom, and send it off to [email protected].

• 53:38Speaker 03

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 53:57Josh Clark?

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• 54:39Josh Clark?

  Hosted by Andrew Stratton, these perspectives highlight that life is more than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Living with a rare disease can be challenging, but it does not define the Voices of VivGart. In these episodes, they share their stories, from diagnosis to working with their care team on their treatment plan. Listen to Voices of VivGart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's play a quick game. When I say Carnival cruise, what comes to mind? Maybe a buffet, maybe a lively Lido deck, or maybe you've already decided cruising isn't for you. But we can assure you, a Carnival cruise isn't what you think. From casual bites to five-star dining, laugh-out-loud comedy, a relaxing spa, and unforgettable shore excursions, Carnival

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