The Beloved Judy Blume

Judy Blume is more than an author. She's a legend in teen literature for her frank and honest portrayals of adolescence. Today we pay tribute to her. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 1:52Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 2:02Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck. And it's just us. Jerry's on vacation, actually, as usual. And this is Stuff You Should Know.

• 2:13Speaker 02

  Uh, have you read any Judy Blume books?

• 2:17Josh Clark?

  Yes, I've read a bunch of them. I was going down the list, checking off the ones I've read.

• 2:20Speaker 02

  Oh, interesting. Me too. I had a feeling you hadn't for some reason.

• 2:24Josh Clark?

  Because I'm soulless and robotic?

• 2:28Speaker 02

  Meat merp. Uh, yeah, let's, I bet you we've read a lot of the same ones. So let's go over that.

• 2:33Josh Clark?

  I bet too. Oh, right now? Okay. You ready?

• 2:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:36Josh Clark?

  We'll say them all at the same time.

• 2:38Speaker 02

  No, you say yours and I'll say whether that's one of mine.

• 2:41Josh Clark?

  All right. Freckle Juice?

• 2:43Speaker 02

  Did not read that one.

• 2:44Josh Clark?

  I did. It was a good one. I'm going to say that about all of them. Tales of a Fourth Grade, nothing?

• 2:49Speaker 02

  I did read that.

• 2:51Josh Clark?

  I did too, but I didn't remember what that one's about and I didn't go look it up.

• 2:55Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:56Josh Clark?

  Otherwise known as Sheila the Great.

• 2:58Speaker 02

  I read that.

• 2:59Josh Clark?

  That was a good one. Blubber is the one, aside from Are You There God, It's Me, Margaret, that I remember the most.

• 3:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, I read both of those.

• 3:07Josh Clark?

  And then I think that was it for me.

• 3:10Speaker 02

  All right. I think I read all the, I read Then Again, Maybe I Won't.

• 3:14Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 3:15Speaker 02

  And I also read, um, Super Fudge.

• 3:19Josh Clark?

  Oh, I did too. I'm sorry. I did too. I read Super Fudge.

• 3:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I think I read six or seven of these.

• 3:25Josh Clark?

  And I had a question mark next to Then Again, Maybe I Won't. I may have read that one, or I just may have been aware of it.

• 3:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then the one, what is it? Tiger Eyes? Sounded familiar, but I'm not sure if I read those. But I think like, you know, one reason I wanted to ask, because I think Judy Blume and her books get associated with young girls.

• 3:43Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 3:44Speaker 02

  And I was like, was I an outlier? Because I read six or seven Judy Blume books and like, loved them all? Or, you know, maybe we're both outliers?

• 3:52Josh Clark?

  I don't think so. I don't remember it being particularly odd or weird, at least in my elementary school. So the fact that you did too, I would guess is probably fairly normal. I also read a lot of Ramona Quinby books. Did you read any of those?

• 4:06Speaker 02

  No, I never read those.

• 4:07Josh Clark?

  I knew that the day I became, at an adolescent, I guess, because I was halfway through a Ramona Quinby book.

• 4:15Speaker 02

  You were seven.

• 4:15Josh Clark?

  And I realized I didn't give a good damn what was about to come next in Ramona Quinby's life all of a sudden.

• 4:23Speaker 02

  Oh, no.

• 4:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And that was it for me and Ramona. I always have fond memories of her. Those were great, fun books.

• 4:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, I think it's cool that we both read this stuff and that our parents were, and my suspicion is that it was the same in my house, is that they weren't paying attention enough probably to say, hey, should you be reading this book about, you know, a young girl going through menstruation and discovering her sexual awakening?

• 4:48Josh Clark?

  Right, exactly. My parents paid enough attention. I remember my dad, like, some tense conversations I barely overheard. The only word I could make out was fruity.

• 4:58Speaker 02

  Oh, man. Goodness me.

• 5:01Josh Clark?

  He was a real jerk growing up.

• 5:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, here we are, though. Well adjusted and kicking butt in life.

• 5:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah. You know, what's great is I can't wait to get the one or two emails where they're like, that was really mean of your dad to call you fruity.

• 5:13Speaker 02

  Right. Yeah. Get some support.

• 5:17Josh Clark?

  He didn't really everybody is what I'm trying to say.

• 5:19Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 5:20Josh Clark?

  I think you make a great point, though, Chuck. Like, I think it's, whether it's normal or not, I feel like it was great that we read those books. They were great books to start with.

• 5:30Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 5:31Josh Clark?

  But also, like, it's just so rare for an adult to have that level of insight into what it's like to be a kid, growing into, well, an adolescent again, right? That's just, people have memories of that. I have memories of it, but the vibe, the feeling, and being able to convey it again, that is long gone.

• 5:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, I totally agree.

• 5:53Josh Clark?

  So she was good at what she did. And she was a trailblazing pioneer of, of the first kind.

• 6:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally. And when you say was, Judy Blume amazingly is still with us in her late 80s, living down in Key West. But I think she's basically given up writing. She hasn't put out a book in a while. She does run a bookstore down in Key West, which I would love to go to sometime.

• 6:21Josh Clark?

  I wish I had known the one time I went to Key West, because I definitely would have popped in to see her.

• 6:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. So today we salute Judy Blume. And I guess let's go back to her childhood.

• 6:31Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 6:31Speaker 02

  Because she was born Judith Marcia Sussman on February 2nd, 1938, in Elizabeth, New Jersey, just outside of New York, and grew up in a, a pretty just normal, middle class Jewish family. Her dad was a dentist, her mom was a homemaker. And she, you know, seemed to have a, uh, you know, I was about to say a happy life, but she was a fraught kid about some stuff, but not because she had like some awful life. It was a pretty normal life, but a lot of angst, it seems like.

• 7:03Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and fairly well earned, I, I feel like.

• 7:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure.

• 7:08Josh Clark?

  But not because her family dynamic was screwed up. It was like her father was her confidant, like her entire, entire childhood. He's, sounds like a really good father. I didn't get the impression that her mom was anything terrible, but I think her father played a more prominent role.

• 7:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think so too.

• 7:25Josh Clark?

  But what her mom gave her was the gift of loving to read, which is, man, there are a few gifts you can give a kid better than that, you know?

• 7:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, no kidding. And I know you and I have talked about this privately, but you know, when Ruby had, was diagnosed with dyslexia, we were both as avid readers, just, you know, sort of afraid that meant she wouldn't have that joy. And she's gotten over it to the point where she's an avid reader and it just makes us so happy. And you always wonder what your kid's going to be like. And when I was reading about young Judy Blume, making up stories, like life stories and backstories for her dolls and playthings and creating characters and scenarios, like Ruby does a lot of that stuff. And I'm always wondering if like, you know, she writes stories and stuff, like, is that her path? And like, who knows? But, um, you know, just like Judy Blume, they both had these active, or have

• 8:18Speaker 02

  these active, um, kind of make believe lives, which, which I think is super cool and healthy and awesome.

• 8:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah. The thing that stuck out to me was that she would take piano lessons. And then while she was practicing the piano herself, she, in her head, she was teaching imaginary students, like made up characters.

• 8:37Speaker 02

  I love that.

• 8:38Josh Clark?

  She was giving them piano lessons.

• 8:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:40Josh Clark?

  And you know, that's pretty cool in and of itself. She actually kept a journal, a notebook to chart their progress. The imaginary students she was teaching's progress in her notebook. Like, that's how refined her imagination was in, as far as character development goes, as a kid.

• 8:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's super cool. And that reminded me, and again, not to just keep bringing Ruby into it, but I know you're a fan, so you don't mind.

• 9:04Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 9:04Speaker 02

  But when I took her to her first Hawks game, when she was like, eight or nine, maybe, she sat there, and I don't think I've told this before, but she, I looked and she brought her little notebook like she always does, just in case she gets bored. And she was keeping notes. And finally, it was like, what are you noting? And she had noted all the players and all of their shoes and what brand and what color shoes they had and what number they were and everything. And I just thought, what an interesting thing to do.

• 9:31Josh Clark?

  That, yeah. I mean, I was never into that kind of thing. Um, so I, yeah, I feel like I'm definitely looking at it from the outside in.

• 9:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. I just, you know, when you're a parent, you're always like, what does that mean? And like, maybe one day I'll look back and go like, oh, it all makes sense now or whatever.

• 9:48Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 9:48Speaker 02

  Maybe she'll be in inventory or something.

• 9:52Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 9:53Speaker 02

  What's it called when you manage?

• 9:57Josh Clark?

  Logistics?

• 9:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, logistics.

• 9:59Josh Clark?

  She'll be in charge of logistics of moving basketball players around the country.

• 10:03Speaker 02

  Hey, great.

• 10:04Josh Clark?

  Um, yeah, that's cool. That's a great story. And I, yeah, I, I can't quite get it either. I mean, is it like a calming thing?

• 10:12Speaker 02

  I don't know. I have no idea.

• 10:14Josh Clark?

  Well, let me know when you figure it out.

• 10:16Speaker 02

  All right.

• 10:16Josh Clark?

  I'm interested.

• 10:17Speaker 02

  It'll be in like 20 years, probably.

• 10:19Josh Clark?

  So even though Judy Blume was like, she came up with characters and had a very rich internal life as a kid, she apparently never particularly aspired to be a writer. She ended up wanting to find essentially like a creative outlet later on, as we'll see. But as a kid, that wasn't, she wouldn't like, that's what I'm going to be as a writer. And so that comes later in between then and now, but the opposite. So now would be while she was a child, then would be as she's grown up a little more.

• 10:57Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 10:58Josh Clark?

  You said that she had a kind of a fraught childhood and as a result of that, she definitely suffered from anxiety as a kid. And this is like 1950s anxiety. So like the real deal kind where you saw like a psychoanalyst sometimes.

• 11:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, certainly. Starting out in the 40s when you're a little kid, especially a Jewish American kid and World War II is going around. There was a big preoccupation in her family and, you know, every probably Jewish American kid's life about what was going on overseas, afraid that could happen to them and their family, that kind of thing. And then really, this is so sad. She was always just worried about her father dying because a couple of her uncles died when they were younger in their early 40s of heart attacks, I guess, heart failure.

• 11:41Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 11:41Speaker 02

  And she was just always worried about her dad and, you know, doing kid stuff like, you know, making a deal with God, like, hey, if I ace this test, it'll help my dad live. And just, it's just so sort of heartbreaking to hear that stuff.

• 11:56Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And if that sounds a little familiar, then you probably have read, Are You There, God? It's Me, Margaret.

• 12:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:02Josh Clark?

  So yeah, that was a big deal. Like that kind of guided her outlook and, and that's a lot to worry about as a little kid, right?

• 12:09Speaker 02

  Totally, yeah.

• 12:11Josh Clark?

  So another thing that happened, remember I said her dad was like one of her, her biggest, most prominent figures in her entire life as a kid. There were two years where she and her mom and brother moved to Miami Beach because her brother had suffered some sort of chronic illness, I believe. And they were like, go to Miami. Apparently the 110% humidity will do you good.

• 12:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:34Josh Clark?

  And her father stayed back in Elizabeth, New Jersey because he was a dentist. So he had to stay dentisting.

• 12:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:43Josh Clark?

  And that separation apparently was so significant that she developed obsessive compulsive disorder. Not only would she, like you said, kind of make deals with God, she would, you know, maybe turn a doorknob handle X number of times. And as long as she remembered to do that, her father would stay alive, like that kind of stuff. Again, we're talking about a kid who's less than 10 years old.

• 13:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a lot to take on. It just made me real sad to hear that. But she also had a few, and you know, as we'll see, she wrote a lot about stuff that she knew, either places where she lived or about things that were, you know, like you said, in Are You There, God? It's Me, Margaret, kind of writing about that. She also wrote later in life about a family who experienced these three plane crashes sort of near their house that affected their household. And that really happened to her, right?

• 13:36Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Over the course of 58 days, less than two months, there were three separate plane crashes at the, from the Newark Airport, which apparently was like right there, that the runways were pointed essentially at Elizabeth.

• 13:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:51Josh Clark?

  And 100 people died from those three crashes, 11 of which were like neighbors, friends and neighbors, like town folk from Elizabeth who had been on the ground in the wrong place at the wrong time.

• 14:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. So that's obviously gonna, you know, color a young kid's psyche, you know?

• 14:10Josh Clark?

  For sure. I mean, what are the odds of something like that happening? I guess it was bad enough that they closed the Newark Airport for a year and rebuilt the runway so that they weren't pointed at Elizabeth anymore.

• 14:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's, that's terrible.

• 14:24Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So all those things together certainly like shaped her childhood, her pre-adolescence.

• 14:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think so.

• 14:32Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And then as she like kind of grew up, like her life was pretty normal 1950s, early 1960s type life.

• 14:42Josh Clark?

  Although she was a little more on the alternative side. It looks like, it sounds like she was a bit of a beatnik.

• 14:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think she gravitated towards that. Like when she graduated and she graduated, you know, high school at the top of her class and then went to NYU. And then there in the 50s at NYU, it sounds like she was definitely kind of slanted toward that bohemian culture and drawn to the beatnik types.

• 15:01Josh Clark?

  Yeah, she was hanging with Llewellyn Davis.

• 15:06Speaker 02

  Should we take a break?

• 15:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 15:08Speaker 02

  All right. We'll take an earlier break. It seems like a good, college seems like a good breaking point to me.

• 15:12Josh Clark?

  Oh, I agree.

• 15:13Speaker 02

  All right. We'll be right back.

• 15:25Josh Clark?

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• 17:36Josh Clark?

  Hey, this is Josh and Chuck from Stuff You Should Know.

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• 18:44Josh Clark?

  So we're back. Chuck and Judy Blume is stuck in college because we took an ad break and we're going to dislodge her. She's a junior. It's 1959. She meets a guy named John Bloom. She was 21 at the time. He would have been 27.

• 19:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:01Josh Clark?

  He was already like well out of school, established himself as a lawyer. And he said, "Hey, toots, how about we get married?" And she liked that idea. So they got engaged and they got married that year. Sadly, very, very sadly, I'm sure this hit her quite hard. Her father wasn't there to walk her down the aisle because like a month before the wedding, he died from a heart attack. He wasn't early 40s, but he was early mid 50s, which is still very, very young.

• 19:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, to see your fear realized like that, like the one thing that she was worried about specifically the heart attack too, uh, must have been devastating. Um, so she gets married in 1961. She graduated from NYU with a degree in early childhood education. And the plan was to sort of, you know, you know, you mentioned earlier, she didn't want to be a writer necessarily. And, you know, one of the big reasons because is in the 1940s and early 1950s, when she was a kid, that just wasn't an avenue that was as open to young women. Uh, it's a big reason that S.E. Hinton kept the initials S.E. Hinton, uh, when she wrote The Outsiders and all those books, you know?

• 20:11Josh Clark?

  I didn't know S.E. Hinton was a woman.

• 20:14Speaker 02

  Are you serious?

• 20:15Josh Clark?

  Yeah, dead serious.

• 20:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:17Josh Clark?

  I thought it was like-

• 20:17Speaker 02

  S.E. Hinton was a teenage girl when she wrote The Outsiders.

• 20:21Josh Clark?

  I had no idea. Wow.

• 20:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 20:24Josh Clark?

  I thought that was Stephen Eadie Hinton.

• 20:28Speaker 02

  That's why she did it. I mean, it worked, I guess. She was like, I gotta be able to fool Josh Clark.

• 20:32Josh Clark?

  No, but I mean, like, I had no idea. This is literally the first time I'm hearing that. It's not even like, oh, that vaguely rings a bell. I have never heard that in my entire life.

• 20:41Speaker 02

  Well, there you have it. Yeah, she was a teenage girl in high school when she wrote The Outsiders.

• 20:45Josh Clark?

  That's really cool.

• 20:46Speaker 02

  But again, that's why she kept the name S.E. Hinton because just publishing wasn't so open to young women writing books. So that's why Judy Blume didn't. And when she, uh, was graduating college, she was just sort of on that track. She was like, I'm gonna get my degree. I'm gonna get married, which I already did before I graduated. I'm gonna have kids and be a homemaker. And within a couple of years of graduating, she had a daughter named Randy Lee and then a son named Lawrence Andrew and was, you know, very happily, it seems, back in the New Jersey suburbs.

• 21:16Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 21:16Speaker 02

  While her husband was attorneying.

• 21:19Josh Clark?

  Yes. So, um, I had said though, that she was, she started writing because she was like, I need to do something else besides just like raise kids and sit at home and dust. Um, that just was not enough to fulfill her as a person. So once both of her kids were in preschool, um, she was like, I'll write some books for my kids or at least my kids' friends if the kids don't like it. So she started creating picture books, essentially. The first one she came up with, uh, or at least the first one, her first published book, was a children's picture book called The One in the Middle is the Green Kangaroo.

• 21:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:56Josh Clark?

  Which is a great, great children's book name. Uh, but that, that didn't come like easy. That wasn't like a, you know, first try and she, she got her big break.

• 22:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, it's, I think she went a couple of years, like two, two and a half years getting, you know, rejection letter after rejection letter. Um, I think they dug-

• 22:16Josh Clark?

  Who helped us with this one? Uh, Julia.

• 22:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, Julia found that she was getting like six no letters per week, uh, before she became like an overnight success. You know, that's how the, the media like tends to view those things.

• 22:28Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 22:29Speaker 02

  But it seems like the big turning point was when she took a continuing ed class at NYU in the late 60s, uh, like a writing class for like tween writing and teen writing. And she told NPR a few years ago that it was like such a monumental thing for her to like, to, to know that she was gonna leave every Monday, leave her family, get, go to the bus to, uh, New York City and like, her husband was gonna feed the kids and she wasn't gonna be home until later that night. And just knowing she had that creative outlet really freed her up mentally, I think.

• 23:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 23:03Speaker 02

  And led to that children's book and then eventually led to the publishing of her first novel, uh, Iggy's House.

• 23:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah. It was a children's book, I guess maybe young adult, um, book about a, it's from the viewpoint of a little white girl named Winnie who lives in a neighborhood where her best friend has just moved and a black family moves into the neighborhood. And it's all about the racial tensions that develop white flight. Um, but it's rather than Judy Blume trying to make it from the viewpoint of the, the little girl from the black family that just moved in, I think she very wisely did it from the viewpoint of this, you know, little white girl who's looking at it from the outside and was kind of innocently, um, trying to figure out what, what, what the problem was, what was going on. And this

• 23:54Josh Clark?

  was 1970 when it was published. And this was not the kind of book that children were, were finding in the library at the time by any means.

• 24:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. Uh, so that's her first one published in 1970, as far as a novel goes. And then right out of the gate, her follow-up book, again, also in 1970, was Are You There God? It's Me, Margaret.

• 24:17Josh Clark?

  Wow.

• 24:18Speaker 02

  So, I mean, can you just imagine starting your career out with a stone cold classic like that? Uh, it was eventually made into a movie that was actually pretty good. I know she-

• 24:28Josh Clark?

  Was it?

• 24:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, it wasn't bad. Um, you know, it's hard when you have such a beloved book from your childhood. And I think that's why she waited so long, uh, you know, overtures for years and years and years to like decades to try and get it made into a film. And she always said, no. And I think she finally found, you know, that it was time. And it turned out pretty good. I'm waiting, you know, Ruby saw it and I'm waiting for her to want to read these books. Um, yeah.

• 24:51Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 24:51Speaker 02

  Cause we, we got them all like, you know, ready at the gate waiting for.

• 24:54Josh Clark?

  They're just idling in the bookshelf?

• 24:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. They're, they're, they're ready.

• 24:59Josh Clark?

  I didn't see it. I saw it had a 7.3 on IMDb, which is definitely respectable and 99% on Rotten Tomatoes. So-

• 25:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:06Josh Clark?

  You're not the only one who thought it was pretty good. Um, so this book that comes out, let's talk about Are You There God? It's Me, Margaret for a second, okay?

• 25:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:16Josh Clark?

  The reason we referred to Judy Blume as a trailblazer is because she was, she was one of the first people writing this kind of book for this age group. S.E. Hinton, her, um, uh, her book, The Outsiders, takes place among high schoolers. Um, same with like The Chocolate War by, um, what was his name?

• 25:38Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 25:39Josh Clark?

  Robert, um-

• 25:40Speaker 02

  Ludlum?

• 25:41Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Robert Ludlum's Chocolate War. Um, and then also there's another one called The Cat Ate My Gym Suit by Paula Danziger. That was fairly, the, all of them had to do with ninth graders or up, right?

• 25:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:55Josh Clark?

  She's writing about like 11-year-olds. It's going through the beginnings of what high schoolers are now dealing with, right? And the only person who beat her was S.E. Hinton, from what I could tell. I think The Outsiders came out in 1967. Are You There God? Are You There God? It's Me, Margaret came out in 1970. And again, it was just totally different from other books for kids at the time.

• 26:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, you know, and kids books are still like this in a lot of ways, although there's a lot more variety now, uh, thankfully. But back then, it was kind of like you present a big, uh, problem. Maybe there's a moral issue or something and there's some big grand solution that teaches a big, uh, grand lesson. And she was like, you know what? It's not that easy and it's not that clean to grow up and, um, and, and black and white. So like, I'm gonna write books about how messy it is and how maybe it's just a struggle sometimes. And, you know, there's just a lot of realism in her books of like what it was really like to be an adolescent. And, uh, you know, critics, um, liked them right

• 27:00Speaker 02

  away. Uh, the buying public loved them. I think it was in, Are You There God? It was a New York Times bestseller and a New York Times Book Review Outstanding Book of 1970. And just kind of launched her right out of the gate, you know?

• 27:14Josh Clark?

  For sure. Um, yeah. And I saw it also really took off when it came out in a trade paperback version in 1972 at a price that like younger kids, her audience could afford.

• 27:25Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 27:26Josh Clark?

  Like they didn't have to ask their parents to buy it for them anymore.

• 27:28Speaker 02

  Right.

• 27:29Josh Clark?

  So, um, one of the things that, that Judy Blume is credited with, um, is essentially approaching adolescents, approaching, um, well, not just menstruation, Chuck, but monarchy. Remember that?

• 27:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:44Josh Clark?

  Monarchy used to be like a, a guest character, a recurring guest character on early Stuff You Should Know, weirdly enough.

• 27:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's just a good trivia word.

• 27:53Josh Clark?

  For sure. Um, but she approached it as like, it's a good thing. This is exciting. Like her characters are like, hurry up. I want to hurry up. Um, and one passage that's very, very famous, um, is when, um, Margaret and her friends who all collectively make up the pre-teen sensations. It's their little secret club where they get together and talk about this stuff. One of them has the idea that they want to basically grow breasts, I guess is the best way to put it. And so one of them suggests they like move their elbows like back and forth alongside of their, like they're basically pumping. And while you do that, you have to say, I must, I must, I must increase my bust.

• 28:36Speaker 02

  Classic.

• 28:37Josh Clark?

  I didn't know that came from that. I always associate that with the Lords of Acid. Remember that song?

• 28:41Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 28:42Josh Clark?

  I had no idea that, um, Jade For You from Lords of Acid was a Judy Blume fan and was citing Are You There God? It's Me, Margaret.

• 28:53Speaker 02

  Pretty cool. And S.E. Hinton was a teenage girl when she wrote The Outsiders.

• 28:56Josh Clark?

  I'm just finding out all sorts of big stuff.

• 28:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's pretty cool. I mean, monumental book right out of the gate. She is, at the same time this is going on, you know, a kind of playing this housewife role. But again, realizing like, you know, I don't know if that was the life for me. I got married when I was young. I never had sort of the freedom and adventure that I longed for in her life. And she said, you know, there was a quote where she said for 16 years, writing saved me and my marriage. But by the mid 70s, the rules had changed. So by 1975, she's like, you know, I think I want a divorce. And she did that. She divorced her first husband, moved to New York. And then a year later, married a physicist named Thomas Kitchens.

• 29:43Speaker 02

  They were only married for about four years, but they had a pretty adventurous life. They lived in London and in New Mexico.

• 29:49Josh Clark?

  Right. I think at Los Alamos.

• 29:54Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 29:55Josh Clark?

  So also by 1975, when she decided to get divorced from her first husband, the lawyer, she had put out 10 books between 1970 and 1975.

• 30:07Speaker 02

  Pretty amazing.

• 30:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Basically, almost all the ones that you and I read came out in that first like 10 year spurt. Like she just wrote classic bestselling kids books just right out of the gate. It's just really cool how much she was able to do, how much she was able to just connect with little kids. I still don't get it. Like I do not understand how an adult can do that. I'm just in awe of it.

• 30:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. I know her 1975 book Forever is not one that I read. But that's a very big book for Emily and I know a very big book for a lot of like, probably girls of all generations, but Gen X girls in particular, because that was the one where she had kind of been building up to, you know, talking about prepubescent stuff and adolescence and puberty. And then finally in Forever, it's like finally a character that wants to try and have sex for the first time. And Emily was just like, oh, man, like to read that book as a kid, it was like a really big deal.

• 31:07Josh Clark?

  Yes. And the book itself, I've seen it described as essentially a self-help manual for having safe sex. Because she follows the main character Catherine throughout like this process where she meets the dude. She falls in love, she decides to have sex. And then before she has sex, she goes to like Planned Parenthood to get condoms.

• 31:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:28Josh Clark?

  She like, like she basically learns anatomy and reproductive stuff, like all sorts of different things that are laid out, like this is what's happening to Catherine, but reader, I'm really talking to you. And I'm making it as plain as possible. If you're gonna have sex, do this stuff because this is how you have safe sex. And of course, as we'll see, like that just made it an absolute target for book challenges where you formally request a book be banned or removed from the library.

• 32:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, we can go ahead and talk about that if you want.

• 32:04Speaker 02

  I mean, as much as people love Judy Blume, there was another set of people that hated an author, a grown woman, writing about the realistic challenges of like being a kid and being a tween or a teen and going through puberty and all that stuff. So she was a target right out of the gate for book banning, like you said, and is on a lot of lists as, you know, some of the most banned books of all time have been Judy Blume books, which is like a, to me, a feather in your cap as an author, because that means you're probably telling the truth about something.

• 32:36Josh Clark?

  Yeah, but as we'll see, that drove her crazy. Like she is not one for censorship, you know?

• 32:41Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, for sure.

• 32:42Josh Clark?

  So the, the key I saw to understanding why everybody wants to ban Judy Blume books is that Judy Blume was the epitome of second wave feminism. Like all this stuff that Betty Friedan talked about in Feminine Mystique is embodied in the writing of Judy Blume. And Judy Blume is talking directly to the next generation of kids, essentially saying, this is the way to be. This is a good, this is a good way to become a good person and love yourself and treat other people kindly. And the arch rival to second wave feminism in the 70s and 80s, and I think still today, is conservatism. They don't want kids shaped like that.

• 33:27Josh Clark?

  So when they see people, when they see books like that, Judy Blume books in their library, they don't want their kids anywhere near it. So they request the book be removed. That's why those, those books get challenged all the time is because they're a challenge themselves to conservative ideology, which largely revolves around the idea that if you don't teach kids stuff, they're not gonna do it. They're not gonna think of it themselves and they're not gonna do it. And yeah, it seems preposterous to me too. And it gets proven wrong time and time and time again. But that's just how, that's just the conservative outlook. That's just, they don't feel comfortable trying a different way in that respect. And, you know, I mean, that's a lot of people's viewpoint.

• 34:11Josh Clark?

  It's not necessarily mine, but I think, you know, it doesn't mean it's inherently wrong. I just, I just don't like the idea of banning books, even though I get to an extent where they're coming from, they're trying to protect their children, not tick off Judy Blume or the liberals.

• 34:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I think a lot of what that frame of mind comes from is I want to be the decider of my kid learning what they learn, when they learn it, as far as sexuality goes.

• 34:37Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 34:37Speaker 02

  I want to be in charge of that. I don't want it to come from some book from some lady that they happen to check out at the library.

• 34:42Josh Clark?

  Cause they had a good like cover illustration.

• 34:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, you know, I get that to a certain degree, but like TS, you know?

• 34:52Speaker 02

  For Judy, as far as she goes, she didn't think she was being very controversial. She thought, I'm just writing in a very frank way about how kids really are. Like I was writing the truth, like Chuck Bryant will one day say. She didn't like the sterilized adolescents that she saw portrayed in like other kids books. And, you know, books that ignored the angst of what was going on in kids' lives. So she thought, and I think she was very much correct, in my opinion, and I'm sure yours, that she was doing a service by like kind of portraying the realism of childhood and teendom.

• 35:24Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Better to learn this stuff from an adult who knows what they're talking about, who's been through this and knows how to describe the process of having safe sex than from Tina, who has an older brother that mentioned to her like, you know, one time.

• 35:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 35:40Josh Clark?

  So, um, yes, she has been, I think she's not just been one of the most banned authors of the 80s and the 90s, but also the 21st century. I think even in 2025, 2024, 2025 school year, she was, um, her novel Forever was on the list of most banned books, the one that had, it was basically a safe sex self-help manual. So yeah, you can kind of understand that, but it's not, it's not just that. There's been other ones too, like Tiger Eyes. Is about a girl whose father is killed during a robbery of the 7-Eleven that he works at.

• 36:23Josh Clark?

  And her coming to terms with that and suffering from grief and depression. One of her friends is an underage binge drinker. I mean, that book gets banned a lot too.

• 36:34Speaker 02

  Yeah. Man, I just think it's so cool that she was brave enough to like write these stories, you know?

• 36:40Josh Clark?

  Yeah, for sure. I mean, like she was very brave, especially after it became clear. And I think it did fairly early on, that there was a large segment of America that viewed her books as controversial. And so, yeah, every time she sat down and wrote one of these, it was a greater and greater act of bravery.

• 36:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, and a bigger and bigger middle finger.

• 37:01Josh Clark?

  Pretty much.

• 37:04Speaker 02

  Should we take our second break?

• 37:05Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 37:06Speaker 02

  All right. We'll be right back, everybody, with more on Judy Blume.

• 37:18Josh Clark?

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• 39:08Josh Clark?

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• 39:29Speaker 02

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• 39:32Josh Clark?

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• 40:01Josh Clark?

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• 40:35Speaker 02

  All right, so I did mention, and you know, this isn't the most revealing thing in the world. A lot of authors write about what they know, but Judy Blume definitely did that. When she was living in Maine, she wrote a story set in Maine. When she lived in New Mexico, she wrote, I think it said movie, she wrote a book, you know, I'm talking about books here. She wrote a book. Did I say movie?

• 40:55Josh Clark?

  I don't think so.

• 40:57Speaker 02

  Okay, I thought it said movie.

• 40:58Josh Clark?

  If you did, I'm sorry I missed it.

• 41:00Speaker 02

  Anyway, a lot of times she wrote books like set where she was living, or about sort of veiled, thinly veiled, sort of, things that happened in her own childhood. Not super unusual, but she also did the same thing. You know, she wrote adult books, too. We're talking about her kids' books. She wrote four novels for adults. They were all bestsellers as well, and they were all sort of about her life experiences, starting with Wifey in 1978, about a woman who was in a sort of traditional marriage, who wanted to break out of that.

• 41:30Josh Clark?

  Yeah, pretty autobiographical. There's also Smart Women, which was about women navigating dating and relationships after, like, post-divorce.

• 41:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, there you go.

• 41:42Josh Clark?

  That was '83. There's also one that came out in '98 called Summer Sisters. It's about a female friendship. That sounds pretty sweet.

• 41:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, summer's in the season.

• 41:51Josh Clark?

  And then in the unlikely event from 2015, that was the one you mentioned, that she wrote about a family going through those actual plane crashes that she went through.

• 42:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. And you know, I said that critics, they certainly didn't love everything. I know Are You There? Got It's Me, Margaret and a lot of her bestsellers got some good marks with critics, but a lot of critics kind of dunked on her for being a simplistic writer. There was one critic who compared her writing to a shopping list, and I always just thought her work was just very readable for her audience. If that's simplistic, then I guess it works, in my opinion, you know?

• 42:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah. I mean, we're talking about 11-year-old readers who may have only been reading for the last handful of years, you know?

• 42:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally.

• 42:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah. But the difference is, she didn't write down to them.

• 42:42Speaker 02

  Right. Good point.

• 42:43Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I think, I think there were just people who just didn't like what she was writing, and were taking potshots wherever they felt they could.

• 42:51Speaker 02

  I want to, this made me kind of want to reread one of her books and just see how it grabbed me as an adult, you know?

• 42:56Josh Clark?

  Same. Yeah, I ran across a couple of people who were talking about some of these books, and they're like, yeah, I spent three hours reading this, and it was well worth it.

• 43:04Speaker 02

  Right. You can just play through it.

• 43:05Josh Clark?

  Yeah. I feel the same way. That, I'd like to read some more, just at least one or two, and then the entire catalog of Sweet Valley High.

• 43:16Speaker 02

  Emily read those, too, man. She, gosh, she reads a lot, and read a lot as a kid.

• 43:20Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Well, they were huge when we were younger.

• 43:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, and the other one for Emily was the Nancy Drew books. She still has her collection from like, her mom, from when she was a kid, and she read all of those.

• 43:31Josh Clark?

  That's really cool. Yeah, my sisters read those, and the Hardy Boys a little bit.

• 43:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:37Josh Clark?

  I was a fan of Alfred Hitchcock's Three Investigators. Remember them?

• 43:43Speaker 02

  Two, why does that sound so familiar?

• 43:45Josh Clark?

  It was like Alfred Hitchcock's nephew, and every once in a while, they could call on Alfred Hitchcock.

• 43:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:51Josh Clark?

  But they would

• 43:52Speaker 02

  I think I might have read some of those.

• 43:53Josh Clark?

  Investigate some. It was very Hardy Boys-esque.

• 43:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 43:56Josh Clark?

  I liked them for some reason.

• 43:59Speaker 02

  What a time.

• 44:00Josh Clark?

  What a time to be alive.

• 44:02Speaker 02

  So because of all of the book banning and stuff that went on, it's probably no surprise that she became very much a kind of central person in the anti-book banning movement.

• 44:15Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 44:16Speaker 02

  She has worked a lot over the years with the National Coalition Against Censorship.

• 44:22Speaker 02

  She had a couple of projects in the 80s, trying to get like, parents and kids talking more, and one was called The Kids Fund, capital K-I-D-S, in 1981.

• 44:30Josh Clark?

  Yeah, very cool.

• 44:31Speaker 02

  And that's to develop programs that encourage communication between parents and teens, to foster parent-child discussions through books. And then she had a book, she, I don't think we mentioned, one of the things that she got a lot through her career was letters from kids who often told her things that like, they would never tell their parents, and were just very open and expressive. So she hopefully had permission, but she eventually put those out in a book called Letters to Judy: What Your Kids Wish They Could Tell You, and this was in 1986.

• 45:03Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I thought that was a pretty cool thing to do.

• 45:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, same.

• 45:08Josh Clark?

  So yeah, like, she's the real deal. She's not just in it for the dough. Although, I'm quite sure she's made quite a bit of dough, because I think she's sold like 90 million copies of her books over the years.

• 45:22Speaker 02

  Woo, man.

• 45:22Josh Clark?

  In 40 different languages.

• 45:24Speaker 02

  That's amazing.

• 45:27Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so she has made quite a bit of money, but she's also legit in the fact that she's, she really genuinely wants to figure out how to bridge the gap between parents and their kids, to help both groups. She also, you said that she was like, really against censorship. One of the things that she took a stand against was back in 2023, was cancel culture. Basically, any kind of intellectual censorship, or anything that was against any intellectual freedom, she was, she was against. And she was talking about this in an interview with The Times of London in April of that year. And apparently,

• 46:10Josh Clark?

  they asked her about J.K. Rowling, who at the time, and I think still basically every day, was controversial, because she made some like, repeated, double-down comments about, that were just transphobic, essentially.

• 46:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:28Josh Clark?

  And out of that context, in a different context, they asked Judy Blume about that, about J.K. Rowling, and she said that, "I love her, I am behind her 100%, as I watch from afar." And the way that it was printed in The Times of London article, it made it sound like she was like, "Yeah, I'm backing up this, this person's transphobic comments, I'm behind her 100%." So she had to take the social media to be like, "That was out of context."

• 46:59Speaker 02

  Yeah. In fact, I think we should read her quote even. She said, "I wholly support the trans community. My point, which was taken out of context, is that I can empathize with a writer, or any person who has been harassed online. I stand with the trans community, and vehemently disagree with anyone who does not fully support equality and acceptance of LGBTQ plus people. Anything to the contrary is total BS."

• 47:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 47:23Speaker 02

  And I love that she took such a hard stance of like, hey, hey, hey.

• 47:29Speaker 02

  Don't misunderstand my words like I'm Judy effing Bloom.

• 47:33Josh Clark?

  Exactly. That was pretty much what's between the lines there for sure.

• 47:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:38Josh Clark?

  So, uh, let's see, you said that she lives in Key West now.

• 47:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:42Josh Clark?

  You can go to Books and Books at the studios of Key West and say hi, maybe buy something. And then she's, I mean, she's just basically been really back in the spotlight in the last few years, even though she's, from what I understand, still on hiatus since 2015 from writing, or at least publishing. But starting in 2023, there were not just that movie for Are You There God, It's Me, Margaret, which, like you said, people have been waiting decades for. There's a documentary that came out that year, Judy Bloom Forever.

• 48:11Speaker 02

  It's great.

• 48:12Josh Clark?

  And, and yeah, and then in 2024, there was a biography, The Genius of Judy, by Rochelle Bergstein. That was kind of like a scholarly exploration of how Bloom's work impacted kids. And then there was another one, it was an authorized and then unauthorized autobiography called Judy Bloom, a life that her friend Mark Oppenheimer, um, published in March 2026, and that she publicly removed her support from, cut off contact with Oppenheimer, and then didn't explain to the public or Oppenheimer why.

• 48:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know why.

• 48:51Josh Clark?

  No, no one knows why.

• 48:52Speaker 02

  She didn't tell me.

• 48:53Josh Clark?

  People poured over those books and have been like, or that book and have been like, maybe this is it. Is this it? I don't know. Mark Oppenheimer is like, I have no idea. She didn't explain it to me. There wasn't anything controversial. She like, but she read the first draft and that was it.

• 49:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. Who knows? You know, I know what you mentioned. She had those two divorces, but you'll be glad to know, uh, that she found, uh, long lasting true love. Sometimes it takes a couple of times to get it right, but she, uh, met a guy named George Cooper in 1979 and they moved in together after their very first date and got married, uh, eight years later in 1987. And that is who helps her run that bookstore down in Key West. So they're still together after all these years.

• 49:35Josh Clark?

  That is super cute. Yeah. He's like, uh, he's like a civil rights law professor, I think.

• 49:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, that sounds about right.

• 49:44Josh Clark?

  What else you got?

• 49:46Speaker 02

  I got nothing else.

• 49:47Josh Clark?

  I don't either. Hats off to Judy Bloom. Even if you don't agree with her writing and what she writes about to kids, you still got to admire her bravery and courage.

• 49:57Speaker 02

  Agreed.

• 49:59Josh Clark?

  And if you want to know more about Judy Bloom, it doesn't really matter what age you are, go read some of her books.

• 50:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:05Josh Clark?

  And while you're doing that, and you know what? You could do a lot worse than checking it out at your local library to support its existence there.

• 50:12Speaker 02

  True.

• 50:12Josh Clark?

  And/or could do both. Buy one from your local independent bookseller.

• 50:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, maybe from Judy Bloom herself.

• 50:20Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 50:21Speaker 02

  If you're in Key West.

• 50:23Josh Clark?

  Or if you find a dude selling books out of the trunk of his car, that is as independent a bookseller as you can find.

• 50:31Speaker 02

  I wonder if you bought one from Judy Bloom herself in her own bookstore and you're like, oh my God, will you please sign this? She's like, I don't sign books on Judy effing Bloom.

• 50:39Josh Clark?

  Please leave. Here's your receipt.

• 50:41Speaker 02

  Middle finger.

• 50:43Josh Clark?

  Let's see, Chuck just made himself laugh, which is wonderful. That means it's time for listener mail.

• 50:50Speaker 02

  That means he's awake. Uh, bonjour, Josh and Chuck. My husband and I finally had a chance to see you live for the first time at Massey Hall in Toronto this June.

• 50:58Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 50:58Speaker 02

  Which in real time was just a couple of nights ago for us, and it was the greatest show. On earth.

• 51:04Josh Clark?

  Yeah, we got a standing ovation.

• 51:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was really something. Uh, we are from a small community, about, uh, two hours and a half north of Toronto, and we're definitely not city people, but we figured it's worth it for Josh and Chuck. Uh, my husband's been a huge fan and loyal listener for many years. I'll admit that I had personally listened because it gave me something to talk about with a guy who would eventually become my husband. Uh, but it didn't take long before I genuinely fell in love with the show myself. And because of that, I've always associated both of you with the very beginning of our relationship.

• 51:32Josh Clark?

  Nice.

• 51:34Speaker 02

  Your show at Massey Hall far exceeded, um, our expectations. I just wanted to thank you for giving us such a wonderful evening. Atmosphere was warm, relaxed, genuinely fun. My husband was smiling from ear to ear the entire time. And despite the anxiety that events like this can sometimes bring, uh, he was comfortable and able to simply enjoy himself. And that alone, uh, meant more to me than I can express. So thank you both for doing what you do. Despite all the craziness in the world right now, it brought me so much joy to see a room full of people come together, simply to laugh and learn and enjoy a couple of hours together. I think your Canadian listeners know just how kind and genuine you both are, and we truly appreciate that you made the trip to spend some time with us here in Canada. We'd be lucky to have you back anytime because you're always welcome here. Thanks for such a memorable experience. Warmly, Kelsey and Andrew Sweet.

• 52:19Josh Clark?

  That is a world-class email, huh?

• 52:22Speaker 02

  Maybe best ever.

• 52:23Josh Clark?

  That's the kind of email that removes borders and just turns us into one great big North American continent, you know?

• 52:30Speaker 02

  Agreed.

• 52:32Josh Clark?

  Well, thanks a lot, Kelsey and Andrew. Thanks for coming to see us. And thank you, Kelsey, for such a great email. And if you want to try to top that, let's see what you got. You can wrap it up, spank it on the bottom and send it off to [email protected].

• 52:50Speaker 00

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, my heart radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 53:06Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it starts with a great deal on an off-road ready Tacoma or half ton Tundra, two of Toyota's longest lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures, and style in between. And they're built on a reputation for quality and reliability, which is why Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places. Introducing Voices of VivGart. VivGart is also known as its generic name, F-GarTigamod Alpha F-Cab. And this new show features firsthand stories from people living with a rare disease. Hosted by Andrew Stratton, these perspectives highlight that life is

• 53:51Josh Clark?

  more than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Living with a rare disease can be challenging, but it does not define the voices of VivGart. In these episodes, they share their stories, from diagnosis to working with their care team on their treatment plan. Listen to Voices of VivGart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's play a quick game. When I say Carnival Cruise, what comes to mind? Maybe a buffet, maybe a lively Lido deck, or maybe you've already decided cruising isn't for you. But we can assure you, a Carnival Cruise isn't what you think. From casual bites to five-star dining, laugh-out-loud comedy, a relaxing spa, and unforgettable shore excursions, Carnival has everything you want in a vacation. So take another look, then book your next getaway

• 54:35Josh Clark?

  at carnival.com. Ships registry, the Bahamas, and Panama.

• 54:39Speaker 06

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.