What's the deal with Swiss neutrality?

We all know Switzerland is neutral. But why? Listen in and you might learn something. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:52Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 2:02Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here, too. And this is Stuff You Should Know, everybody.

• 2:10Speaker 02

  That's right. We're talking about one of the two things Switzerland is known for.

• 2:14Josh Clark?

  What?

• 2:16Speaker 02

  It's not the cheese.

• 2:18Josh Clark?

  Okay, then chocolate?

• 2:20Speaker 02

  Oh, that's true. Three things.

• 2:22Josh Clark?

  Okay, cuckoo clocks?

• 2:24Speaker 02

  Four things.

• 2:26Josh Clark?

  Beautiful mountains?

• 2:28Speaker 02

  Five things. Beautiful people.

• 2:31Josh Clark?

  Roche.

• 2:31Speaker 02

  Six things, seven things. All right, let's just cut to the chase then. There's a lot to Switzerland, everybody. And this is just one of myriad things we could talk about. And that is Swiss neutrality. And I think this came to mind because of the recent talks between the United States and Iran. And I knew Switzerland was, had a role to play there. And I'm like, what the heck is up with that country?

• 2:58Josh Clark?

  Did you say that out loud?

• 2:59Speaker 02

  I think I did. And Ruby was like, what country did?

• 3:02Josh Clark?

  It's a good idea, Chuck. I had no idea about this. And I'm not sure if I ever would have thought of doing one on this, but it's actually pretty interesting.

• 3:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. And thanks to Libya, I now understand it.

• 3:13Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And we should say that right before we started recording, Jerry announced that she is the Switzerland of Stuff You Should Know.

• 3:22Speaker 02

  Jerry likes to think she is.

• 3:24Josh Clark?

  Well, then who, who would be the Switzerland?

• 3:27Speaker 02

  We have no Switzerland.

• 3:28Josh Clark?

  Oh, okay. Who are you?

• 3:30Speaker 02

  Uh, I don't know.

• 3:33Josh Clark?

  I'm a mix of Turkmenistan and Denmark.

• 3:36Speaker 02

  Okay. All right, great.

• 3:40Josh Clark?

  And this is where we're going to leave this, because let's get back to talking about Switzerland, which is, like you said, known for many things. And this neutrality thing, I had no idea, but it is in stark contrast to how Switzerland used to be during the Middle Ages, or medieval times, if you're one of those people who goes to medieval times.

• 4:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, you know, we should point out, too, Switzerland's not the only neutral country. I think Libya found 20 to 25, basically neutral countries around the world. But Switzerland, it's a real, like, when you think of neutral countries, I think most people would say Switzerland because they've taken, not just neutrality as a stance, but like a really active neutrality. And like, hey, come and settle your warring disputes here in our friendly confines, or your financial disputes in our friendly confines.

• 4:30Josh Clark?

  Yeah. As a matter of fact, Switzerland is the only country that comes to mind when I think of neutrality. I had honestly no idea that other countries were officially neutral.

• 4:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:40Josh Clark?

  Like Ireland is. Did you know that?

• 4:43Speaker 02

  No, but I believe it.

• 4:44Josh Clark?

  Okay. Well, at any rate, yes, they are the standard, the gold standard, the Nazi gold standard of neutral countries.

• 4:53Speaker 02

  What a tease.

• 4:55Josh Clark?

  So like I said, the whole thing kind of, I think it was officially neutral as of like the 18 teens, right?

• 5:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then 1851, I think, when they formerly became a country. But

• 5:10Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 5:11Speaker 02

  But yeah, but you promised talk of the Middle Ages. And it is interesting that we can go back to the 13th century to kind of see the beginnings of this.

• 5:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah, apparently this is where William Tell comes from, too. Did you know that?

• 5:23Speaker 02

  Hmm, no.

• 5:25Josh Clark?

  I know shamefully little about William Tell.

• 5:28Speaker 02

  Same.

• 5:28Josh Clark?

  I was reading, I think it's Swissinfo.ch. They're like the English speaking outlet for Switzerland. And this article, this guy was writing, he's like, we all know the story of William Tell, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, actually, I don't know anything that you just mentioned.

• 5:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, agreed. He has a heck of an overture. That's all I know.

• 5:47Josh Clark?

  Yeah, apparently. So here in the United States, everybody, we're taught that William Tell, like, shot the apple off of his kid's head to show off, like, his skills. Apparently, he was forced to do that by some evil, evil Austrian, like, overlords who had taken over Switzerland. And William Tell is actually a resistance fighter who helped Switzerland overthrow those Austrian overlords.

• 6:10Speaker 02

  Fantastic.

• 6:11Josh Clark?

  But he comes out of this time, right? So Switzerland, like you said, until the 1850s or 60s, was a confederation. It's still known as the Swiss Confederation of cantons, which would be like states, provinces, maybe counties. But they're independent little municipalities that all together form Switzerland, or the Swiss Confederation. And that's where the whole thing starts. Back in 1291, there was an alliance between three of these cantons. Now there's like 25. Uri Schweiz, maybe?

• 6:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:45Josh Clark?

  And Unterwalden?

• 6:47Speaker 02

  Walden, yeah.

• 6:48Josh Clark?

  And, yeah. And they formed the Waldstad Alliance.

• 6:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. Sted.

• 6:56Josh Clark?

  Sted?

• 6:57Speaker 02

  Waldstad Alliance, I would say, I think. I don't know if the E is pronounced.

• 7:01Josh Clark?

  I love it when you speak German.

• 7:02Speaker 02

  Well, I know that that gives you a certain thrill, but I think the Umlaut would make it Sted, Sted, Sted?

• 7:08Josh Clark?

  Say it again. Say the whole thing.

• 7:10Speaker 02

  The Waldstad Alliance?

• 7:12Josh Clark?

  Very nice.

• 7:14Speaker 02

  These were basically free peasants at the time. And they, you know, partially, the reason this all goes down is because of their location in the Alps, kind of isolated from a lot of Europe. And so they were isolated, these free peasants, from a lot of the feudal hierarchies all over Europe. And they were like in a good, like, geographic position, because they were there in those mountain passes with Italy to the south and, you know, German speaking peoples to the north. And so they were there as like, hey, we're kind of here in the middle. So that kind of started the whole thing of like, hey, everyone wants to get along with them because they needed them.

• 7:54Josh Clark?

  Yeah. They've, they've, from time to time, served as a very useful buffer, which has helped other outside nations support their bid for neutrality, right? And just to be left alone. And at the same time, that isolation, like you said, from time to time, some of their neighbors would break it and try to basically take over Switzerland, in wood to varying successes from time to time, like I said. But the isolation and the fact that they were mostly independent made Switzerland, or still to this day, that gave them this fiercely independent streak as a nation, that, that they see themselves as like, it's a different thing. They're a separate thing. They're nothing like a typical nation whatsoever.

• 8:39Josh Clark?

  They're their own thing. And one of the big things, you can almost call it a brand, is their neutrality.

• 8:44Speaker 02

  That's right. And when they formed that Volchsted Alliance, it wasn't the biggest deal because that that had always kind of been the deal with them. So it was really just renewing these ties that had already been around for a long time. But everyone later on would say, oh, actually, that's kind of when Switzerland started coming together as what would later be a country.

• 9:06Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 9:07Speaker 02

  And then more Cantons came aboard, the alliance got a little bigger and started getting referred to as the Old Swiss Confederation. Not the, not the new one that we have now. And that's when they started becoming like a real kind of piece of the military puzzle that was going on all around them.

• 9:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I'm very, I'm certain when, when, uh, back in the 13th century, they were confused when people called it the Old Swiss Confederation. Cause it was present to them.

• 9:34Speaker 02

  They're like, what are you talking about?

• 9:35Josh Clark?

  So it was around this time that the Swiss actually became militarily mighty. The Swiss actually were known for their warlike tendencies and their excellent fighting skills. So much so that as they kind of grew and started to take part in European wars during the medieval era and that very, very early modern era. Apparently Niccolo Machiavelli referred to them as the New Romans. This conquering group of incredibly well-trained fighters that were willing to take on the world, essentially. That's, that was the image of Switzerland. It's like the total opposite of how we view Switzerland today.

• 10:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally. Uh, and you know, they had some pretty decent military upsets leading up to the beginning of the 16th century. And that's when they started to kind of move away from that idea because there were some really big countries and countries getting together and like forming larger alliances around them. And they were, you know, they were still, even though they had some military might, they realized they were probably smallish compared to other places that were popping up around them.

• 10:43Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 10:44Speaker 02

  Uh, notably the, the Holy Roman Empire, of course, France, Spain, and Italy, kind of all over the place over there, trying to get at least control in the 16th century of the Duchy of Milan. And that's when the Swiss came out and they're like, hey, you know, the different Cantons had different ideas on who they should support.

• 11:03Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 11:04Speaker 02

  Which would kind of become a recurring theme of like, um, like who they should have allegiance to and not necessarily agreeing. So maybe remaining neutral was the best path of least resistance, I guess. But in this case, at the time, they started out backing France, then switched to the Italians. And then at the Battle of Marignano in 1515, the French kind of kicked their butts, the French and Venetians. And they were like, all right, we lost 10,000 infantry people. So like, maybe we need to really rethink putting our eggs in baskets of other countries.

• 11:41Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that 10,000 was half of the entire Swiss military force was killed at this one battle. So yeah, it was a really big deal. So much so that they were like, yeah. This whole warlike thing is not really working out all of a sudden. Let's explore the idea of being neutral. And it wasn't just that, but from everything I've seen, that battle was a decisive turning point for the mentality among the Swiss about, you know, taking part in European wars. But there were other things that kind of contributed to that decision. One was the, um, the Protestant Reformation, uh, because different Cantons in different parts of the country supported or were Protestant or were Catholic, right?

• 12:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:24Josh Clark?

  And that's a very sticky situation when you're trying to keep these Cantons part of a confederation, right? There's no central government that's telling the Cantons, no, you can't do this. No, you can't do that. They're a confederation essentially. So they're all still quite independent, but they're all still also Swiss. So that in and of itself meant like, how can you participate in European wars when half of your Cantons want to go to war with one another, you know, and the wars out in the rest of Europe are about the, are between Protestants and Catholics. Like you just can't do that. So the Swiss said, you know what? Let's just stay neutral. And this is a good example of how being neutral has literally kept the country together many times over the years.

• 13:07Josh Clark?

  Like where they're like, our differences, our differences of opinion are too great right now among the Cantons. So we're just going to not have an opinion officially as a country.

• 13:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. Uh, another thing that helped was they got a pretty sweet financial deal out of the end of the conflict with France in 1516. That peace treaty gave them access to French markets. They had, I think internally they were like, I'm not sure if they noticed, but we can do business with France now and we could already do business, business with other people. So let's just keep flying under the radar here financially speaking, because we've got the best of both worlds. So they had no, like financial incentive to bust up, uh, I almost said bust that move, but that wouldn't be the right term, I don't think.

• 13:53Josh Clark?

  Bust a move on French markets?

• 13:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure.

• 13:57Josh Clark?

  Okay. Yeah. So yes, this is where their business, um, image also started to.

• 14:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:05Josh Clark?

  This is where the three-piece suit was invented in the, um, peace treaty between France and Europe in 1516.

• 14:12Speaker 02

  And now see, here's a great example. I have no idea whether to believe you or not at this point in my life.

• 14:16Josh Clark?

  I don't know whether to believe me or not even.

• 14:19Speaker 02

  At least we're, at least we're aligned.

• 14:22Josh Clark?

  So there's, this is a, I don't know if you're picking up on this, Chuck. This is a time of frequent wars across Europe. And that's the problem. When you put authoritarian despots in charge with limitless riches, they, the elites want to compete among themselves because they want to have the biggest castle or I want to have the most people at my command. I want to torture the most people, right? And they start competing with each other and they send their own people off to war with one another. It's a great lesson today. It was, um, something to learn from and it happened a lot during this era.

• 14:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, there were a lot of threats to kind of break up this neutrality. Uh, the 30 years war was a big one in 1618. Uh, because again, they were divided, um, sympathies, I guess, within those Cantons. Uh, because what you talked about, but religion for the most part. And if you got involved in that war as Switzerland, that would have kind of torn apart this confederation that they had worked so hard to keep together.

• 15:23Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 15:23Speaker 02

  And so again, they were like, hey, let's, we got to keep a good thing going here. Let's remain neutral. And in 1646, uh, the, the Swedes were, um, sort of threatening them. And so they were like, well, we need to at least have an army though for national defense. Like we can be neutral, but we can't be, we can't be rubes.

• 15:42Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 15:43Speaker 02

  So each Canton had like quotas for troops that they had to supply. And that's, that's when they were like, kind of formed that army of, uh, for defense purposes, which still exists today.

• 15:54Josh Clark?

  So yeah, they created an army in 1646 and then two years later, a really big thing happened. It's, it's just enormous. I'm really impressed. There is this guy named Johann Rudolf Wettstein. Yeah.

• 16:08Speaker 02

  Sounds great.

• 16:09Josh Clark?

  He was the mayor of Basel, right? And the 30 years war came to an end in 1648 through the Peace of Westfalia. And Wettstein Stein showed up to the, to the Peace of Westfalia treaty negotiations. He said, I'm glad you guys are doing this. This is fantastic. Keep, keep up the good work. Also, I want to talk to everybody about something, even though I'm just the mayor of Basel. I want to make sure that Switzerland is represented here because we're just neutral. And we think that we should no longer be, um, under the, the thumb of the Holy Roman Empire. We think that we should have recognition as an independent nation. And also we want to be neutral too.

• 16:55Josh Clark?

  And he got it passed through, like they, he gained recognition from these major powers of Europe. Uh, that Switzerland was now its own country, Holy Roman Empire. Sorry, you just lost Switzerland.

• 17:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, that was, I'm not sure how he pulled that off actually at the time, you know?

• 17:13Josh Clark?

  With a lot of chocolate, I'll tell you that.

• 17:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. And cuckoo clocks. Uh, so about a hundred years after that, there was another threat to their neutrality. This was 1790s, late 1790s. Uh, when the French Revolutionary Republic and Austria and Russia were going at it. And they kind of eat that battle into Switzerland some. And, uh, I think after that victory, that was like 1798, close to 1800. The French government created, uh, the Helvetic Republic, a sister nation. Uh, and that covered a lot of Switzerland.

• 17:50Josh Clark?

  Yeah, they basically said, oh, we just happened to create this country that just is within the borders of Switzerland. Sorry, Switzerland.

• 17:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, some overlap there, guys.

• 17:58Josh Clark?

  Yeah, they basically turned it into a territory. And this is pretty much par for the course for Napoleon. He really kind of sealed the deal when he sent an army to occupy Switzerland, I guess, to protect his new made up country of Helvetic. I want to say Helvetic is so bad.

• 18:16Josh Clark?

  But he essentially plundered Switzerland for the next decade in resources and humans. And actually, when he invaded Russia in 1812, he brought some Swiss troops with him, and they did not do very well there.

• 18:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, they sent 9,000 troops and 700, only 700 came home.

• 18:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 18:39Speaker 02

  You know, the tide finally turned against Napoleon. And so they were like, all right, thank God, we got rid of this guy.

• 18:44Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 18:45Speaker 02

  And so after the Battle of Leipzig in, I believe, 1813, they were like, all right, we're back to being neutral again. We do have our military force, but we're not going to fight anymore. And in fact, in December of 1813, when the Austrian Imperial Army was like, all right, we want to march through your country to go to France, they're like, fine, go right ahead. We'll just let you do that.

• 19:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah, they just turned their backs and whistled. So one other thing happened. There was another, another guy named Charles Picte de Rochmont. And also in 1813, during the peace treaty that ended, well, Napoleon's reign, I guess, essentially, he showed up and he said, also, we want to make sure that we're still getting recognized. We're now the Swiss Confederation. And everyone said, you mean the old Swiss Confederation? And de Rochmont said, no, no, this is brand new. It's a new Swiss Confederation. You guys are going to love it. And he was at first just the mayor of Geneva, which was actually

• 19:48Josh Clark?

  a city-state, independent city-state, part of a Canton now. And I guess he did such a good job that he ended up representing Switzerland as a whole. And this is where their perpetual neutrality was established at the 1814 Congress of Vienna.

• 20:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right. And that was it. I mean, people generally look back to 1815 as like, that's when everything really officially kind of started. When they became a unified federal state in 1848 was when the final stamp was stamped.

• 20:24Josh Clark?

  Right. So now we've reached the point where modern Switzerland is born, and it is officially neutral. It's a sovereign nation, but it's still a confederation. Don't forget that.

• 20:34Speaker 02

  That's right. And that is where we're going to take a break. And we'll be right back with more Swiss neutrality, right after this.

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• 24:12Josh Clark?

  So Chuck, we're in Switzerland now. It's a nice, established country. And part of

• 24:18Speaker 02

  Lovely.

• 24:18Josh Clark?

  It is very lovely. Part of what you said it needs and should have is a military for defense. And still today, it has a military. In fact, I believe this month, the military assembled like 4,000 troops along the border to basically just keep any of the ne'er-do-wells at the G7 summit spilling over, because the G7 summit's in France right now.

• 24:45Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 24:46Josh Clark?

  But their, I guess, military presence dates back, I mean, much further, obviously, but the modern version of it is from like, the 19th century, I think.

• 24:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, you know, they have to abide by certain rules that have happened since then, like the Hague Convention of 1907. If you're a neutral country, which I guess there's like 23 or so, now that we've learned that, they can't fight in a war. They can't support any other countries' warring parties. They can't send them weapons like most other countries do. They can't send money to help out in a war. They can't say, hey, we'll host a base here, or your foreign troops can stay here for a little while. So, you know, they have to remain truly neutral under the Hague Convention, which they were, I'm sure they were quite delighted to make it official. But they, again, they maintain

• 25:40Speaker 02

  that army because they have to have their own defense. And also, we should point out that the Swiss Army knife kind of came around in the 19th century, the 1880s. It's like a literal, you know, if you didn't think the Swiss had an army, they had a knife named after them.

• 25:57Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 25:57Speaker 02

  Of course, they had an army.

• 25:58Josh Clark?

  For sure. And it, I mean, it really is the Swiss Army knife. They just call it the Army knife, I'm guessing, in Switzerland, but everywhere else

• 26:06Speaker 02

  The old Army knife?

• 26:07Josh Clark?

  Swiss Army knife.

• 26:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:09Josh Clark?

  Like the cake roll.

• 26:11Speaker 02

  God, I forgot about the cake roll. That's another thing.

• 26:14Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Well, I don't know that they know that Little Debbie is putting their name on its cake rolls, because I think they would have a problem with that.

• 26:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah, look it up, Switzerland. You're not going to be happy. So World War I was a threat. Obviously, all of Europe was fighting, but I don't believe Switzerland was drawn into it much. World War II was a much greater threat. They had to work much harder to stay neutral and to keep the other countries out. And when Germany occupied France, all of a sudden, Switzerland was surrounded by the Axis. And it was a very nervous time. And they managed to amass an army of, I think, 400,000 troops in the Alps. And they let everybody know, we're staying neutral, but if you come here, we're going to beat you

• 27:08Josh Clark?

  badly. And it generally worked. I saw that they were accidentally bombed several times, that other powers basically said, oh, we didn't mean to bomb you. Sorry, but, you know, we killed a bunch of your people. But for the most part, you know, it worked in that they were never invaded by anyone.

• 27:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. You know, just because you're neutral doesn't mean that you have, like, you're not taking part in anything to do with the war. So they've, as you'll see, you know, we'll talk about a little later, they have a long tradition of receiving refugees, like war refugees. But kind of shamefully, like the US and a lot of other places during, in the aftermath or during World War II, they prevented a lot of Jewish people from the Holocaust from finding refuge there. So that's one of the sort of dark spots.

• 27:58Josh Clark?

  Sure. And then still today, if you are a man between ages 18 and 34, you have to enlist in the military. Or if you're a conscientious objector and say, I'm not carrying a gun around, you can also, there's civilian services you can enlist in. And then if you're a woman, you can also do it, but it's voluntary. You're not required to. And I think today, they have 150,000 active and reserve troops. And just like back in the day, each Canton has to fulfill a quota, and they have their own civilian defense forces.

• 28:33Speaker 02

  That's right. Which is, you know, it would be foolish not to at this point in world history.

• 28:38Josh Clark?

  For sure. So, yeah, there's still a military despite the fact that they're neutral. I feel like we've managed to drive that point home.

• 28:48Speaker 02

  That's the stuff you should know. So this whole idea that we mentioned kind of early on as Switzerland taking an active role in neutrality and not just being like, hey, just leave us alone.

• 28:58Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 28:59Speaker 02

  Where they're like, we will host your dealings with one another and we become a center of arbitration for the world, basically. That started out basically in like the mid 19th century. The Geneva and Basel Chambers of Commerce said, hey, let's get a system together and let's make this like, let's get serious about this and put some structure around what we want to do. And they got their first stab at that, I guess, in 1872, when it was around the Civil War, when negotiators from the United States and Great Britain went to Geneva and worked out what were called the Alabama Claims, which were about losses caused by these British-built Confederate ships, one of which was the Alabama.

• 29:44Speaker 02

  During the Civil War, Britain ended up having to pay damages there. And that started the whole system of like saying, hey, Geneva's pretty nice, you guys. We're pretty chill. And why don't you just come here to settle your disputes in our courtroom, the people's court?

• 30:02Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 30:03Speaker 02

  And then the bongo drums started.

• 30:04Josh Clark?

  I did not see Alabama coming up in an episode on Swiss neutrality, did you?

• 30:10Speaker 02

  I did not either.

• 30:11Josh Clark?

  So since then, like you said, they literally wrote the rules on arbitration. And since then, like they have had some pretty high-profile arbitration meetings, so much so that they eventually worked what are called the good offices, which are everything from like a meeting place to mediation services for arbitration. It's worked into the Swiss federal constitution. So they, like, that's a huge part of Switzerland maintaining its neutrality is saying, like, come, take advantage of our neutral territory. Like, this is a place where you can meet and work out your differences. Let's all just work out our differences, Guy.

• 30:54Josh Clark?

  And I saw, Chuck, one other thing that they do, which is really surprising. They represent the interests of countries who are not speaking to each other. So I think that they represent Iran and Canada. So let's say Iran's like, we're not even talking to you, Canada, anymore. We're going to get Switzerland to meet with you. We're not even going to be in the same room with you. They do that for several different countries.

• 31:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, it's, they provide a service. I wonder what kind of like, do they charge a fee for this?

• 31:25Josh Clark?

  Oh, I'm sure that there's fees involved.

• 31:28Speaker 02

  Sure. Even if it's just like, you know, the hotels in Geneva are very overpriced.

• 31:35Josh Clark?

  Dude, I'll bet you their like, like coffee service at these meetings and conferences are amazing.

• 31:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, because they got, they got to get something out of it besides neutrality.

• 31:45Josh Clark?

  Sure. So I, you know, I knew like, the Swiss were known for being very businesslike. I did not realize the extent that that is true. I believe that the Swiss mentality is generally like, yes, it's business. We conduct our business appropriately, fairly, like, we are really good at it, we have good contracts, like, we are really businesslike. And that that is like, yes, that they are probably getting something for all of the services that they're providing because that's business.

• 32:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I bet you're absolutely right. They're also known for their real push toward humanitarian aid all around the world, especially during times of conflict.

• 32:32Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 32:33Speaker 02

  Like, no less than the Red Cross, still based in Geneva. And if you look at their symbol, it's the inverse of the Swiss flag. And that's no accident. But that all started out because of a Geneva businessman named Henry Dunant.

• 32:51Josh Clark?

  Saint Henry?

• 32:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, for real. In 1859, he was in Solfarino, a town in the north of Italy. He was there for work and he saw the aftermath of a battle between French and Austria and saw like 40,000, you know, dead and wounded soldiers all about him. And it really, really moved him and put a dent in his psyche, I think, because he got like personally involved, started helping out locals, started providing medical assistance, dressing wounds, like, you know, literally himself doing this. And spoke to French officials, was like, hey, you got a bunch of Austrian surgeons who are POWs, like, let them out and let them help their own people and let them help your people. And it moved him to the point where he kind of dedicated his life to it.

• 33:37Speaker 02

  He wrote a book called A Memory of Solfarino and talked about these experiences and the creation of these committees that would train volunteers. And that's the stuff that would become the first National Red Cross Society.

• 33:50Josh Clark?

  Yeah. If you're like, okay, that's pretty impressive, well, prepare for this one, too. You've heard of the Geneva Convention of the Treatment of Prisoners of War?

• 34:01Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 34:02Josh Clark?

  Well, that was his work. He started arguing and lobbying for some sort of international agreements on how to treat the sick and the wounded and the prisoners of war. And that became the first Geneva Convention in 1864.

• 34:16Speaker 02

  Pretty great. And the YMCA that you know and love. He didn't create the YMCA, but do not really made it a global movement. And the World Alliance of the YMCA is also still in Geneva.

• 34:30Josh Clark?

  So two things, when I hear YMCA, I obviously think Village People. But I also think of this great moment from a Simpsons episode where Lionel Hutz is staying there at the YMCA and he's asleep, sitting down with his back up against the wall and his knees pulled up to his chest and his elbows on his knees and his head down, so you can imagine. And I think Barton Lisa walk up and wake him up and he suddenly comes awake and he has a, he brandishes a knife and he says, don't touch my stuff. Like, that's, he was staying at the YMCA. Like, that was his experience there.

• 35:04Speaker 02

  That's pretty good. I love it. Oh, man, Lionel Hutz was the best.

• 35:07Josh Clark?

  Yes, he was. So if you're like, okay, still, Dunant's impressive, but he was probably also just some crazy billionaire who just wanted to make a good name for himself. Wrong. As a matter of fact, all of this humanitarian work that he focused on led to him becoming bankrupt. He wasn't paying enough attention to his business. And so he lost his business, became bankrupt, and essentially unknown for a couple of decades. Until 1895, there was a journalist who was like, oh, my God, this guy, I know this guy. And he's living like obscurely in poverty. I need to let everybody know about him. And he was one of the co-recipients of the first Nobel Peace Prize in 1901.

• 35:52Josh Clark?

  Quite rightfully so, but this guy was seriously, legitimately, a good person.

• 35:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, we've seen, that's kind of one of my favorite things. We've seen it happen quite a bit in history where someone has done great things, but we're sort of lost to history. And then some journalist or somebody or historian dug him up, well, not literally, but, you know, dug up their legacy and brushed it off and said, hey, how about this awesome person that we kind of forgot about?

• 36:18Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's nice when they're still alive, too, so they can get the recognition. And maybe you're like, okay, I'll bet he owned slaves or something like that. Nope, he was agitating for the abolition of slavery. Or he was a gun nut. Nope, agitating for disarmament. Like, he was, he was a humanitarian, as if there was ever a humanitarian.

• 36:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. All right, I say we take another break. Is that good?

• 36:44Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I think we're at a good break. Let's all just think about how great Henry Dunant is.

• 36:48Speaker 02

  All right, let's spend a few moments doing that and we'll be right back.

• 37:04Josh Clark?

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• 37:14Speaker 02

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• 37:27Josh Clark?

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• 37:43Speaker 02

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• 38:07Josh Clark?

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• 38:30Speaker 02

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• 38:54Josh Clark?

  That's pretty awesome. And Smart Downloads automatically downloads videos by your favorite creators, so even if you forget to download it ahead of time, Premium has you covered. So if you like YouTube, you'll love Premium. Sign up now for your free trial. Terms and conditions apply.

• 39:15Speaker 02

  You know, you're never done decorating your home. You know what I mean?

• 39:18Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 39:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, because it's a process. There's always something you could do, or buy, or update. The only question is, what's next? For us, our animals just wear out our rugs so quickly, it's usually a new rug.

• 39:29Josh Clark?

  Well, Chuck, whether you need a rug, or whatever is next for you, you can go to Wayfair. It's the smart place to get it.

• 39:36Speaker 02

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• 39:47Josh Clark?

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• 40:20Speaker 02

  All right. I dwelled on the, uh, on the life of Henry Do Not, and I feel even better than I did a few minutes ago.

• 40:28Josh Clark?

  Same.

• 40:29Speaker 02

  But we're gonna move on and talk a little bit about some of the, you know, it's not all, I talked about, you know, one sort of darkness, uh, in that they didn't allow Jewish refugees on mass during World War II. Um, there's some other stuff that they have on their record that's not the greatest in the world. Um, I guess we should talk about Nazi gold a little bit, but, uh, in order to talk about that, we should probably talk a little bit about just their, you know, you talked about them being, you know, brilliant business people and a center for business around the world. Um, that happened because after they became formally neutral in 1815, um, they said, you know what, this is probably a good place for people to put their money, uh, because we're neutral, it's safe. Anytime

• 41:14Speaker 02

  there's a lot of chaos around the world, like with world wars, everyone knows that they can come here and do some banking. Uh, we may not be at like, you know, uh, like a world banking center on with, like, by the likes of London or Berlin, but we can become, uh, pretty quietly powerful in our own way, especially if we tell everyone that all their business will be super private, if you know what I'm saying.

• 41:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah. They put an emphasis on that kind of thing, where like, if you open an account in Switzerland for decades and decades, most of the 20th century, in fact, if not longer, um, you could have a secret bank account where like, nobody could really figure it out. And that's, it's not fully true. Like, I think if, say, the US government came with a subpoena to find out who the owner was of a specific account, this was, we'd cooperate with them, but for the most part, this was secret stuff, right? Um, and that was how they made their name as an international banking center. But also because, like, um, again, they are really, really good at business. So you knew that this was,

• 42:21Josh Clark?

  like, your money was safe, not just because Switzerland was stable, but because their banking system was incredibly stable. So a lot of people took advantage of that. Dictators, money launderers, eventually drug dealers, terrorists, um, uh, basically anyone, Jackie Chaney, anyone you can think of, um, who wanted to evade taxes, launder money, or just wanted to have their money stashed away, you know, quietly, and weren't really breaking any laws, um, though you went to Switzerland. Like, it's, it's almost a trope. I think it is a trope, this, the secret Swiss bank account that you would have money transferred to.

• 43:00Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, that officially became official with the Federal Banking Act of 1934, uh, to the utter delight of screenwriters everywhere, uh, then and to come. Uh, but that unfortunately dried up in the 1990s when, uh, they were like, all right, no more, no more secret accounts. I guess we gotta get rid of that provision. Uh, but yeah, it worked its way into a lot of movies over the years, uh, just like, you know, a numbered Swiss bank account. That's, uh, growing up with, especially like Cold War movies and stuff like that, spy thrillers. It was always like a secret Swiss bank account, I feel like, at play.

• 43:35Josh Clark?

  They ended up, um, removing that ability, um, from the Swiss banking system because it started to come out just how, how many bad guys

• 43:46Speaker 02

  Right.

• 43:47Josh Clark?

  were using it, where in Switzerland was allowing it to happen. So if their banking system took a hit, um, you know, its image did, and they're like, we can't afford to do that. We're not making enough money off of drug dealers and terrorists. We need to, you know, brush our image back up. So that's when they got rid of that.

• 44:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. Uh, and their image probably needed a little brushing up because, you know, I think I mentioned something about Nazi gold, or if I didn't, I'm mentioning it for the first time now. But they, uh, because of World War II, they, the Swiss National Bank ended up buying about $440 million in Nazi gold, which was basically, you know, laundering that gold

• 44:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 44:28Speaker 02

  that was plundered, uh, that we've talked about a lot of times, like the, the plundering of World War II of the Germans, uh, from, you know, different countries, uh, brutally from Holocaust victims. I know we've mentioned stuff like gold dental fillings and stuff.

• 44:42Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that was real.

• 44:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, from, uh, Jewish concentration camp victims. Um, and so it's not a good look for the Swiss National Bank to be holding on to this stuff. Uh, so later, uh, with the Washington Agreement of 1946, uh, they were made to return, uh, well, at least some of that Nazi gold, not much of it, only about 12% of it, uh, supposedly to its rightful owners. And, um, that's, you know, they ended up using it for other stuff, too, though. They used it sometimes as funds to repay, uh, citizens of Switzerland who had seized property by communist regimes in Europe. So they were like, hey, maybe we'll use some of this Nazi gold to, to repay our own coffers.

• 45:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And you said that they, you know, basically laundered it. They 100% laundered this. So they, the Nazis showed up with literally tons and tons of gold, hundreds of tons of gold that was stolen from other countries, gave it to Switzerland. Switzerland gave the Nazi regime money, lots and lots of money in return. And then Switzerland turned around and took that gold and sold it to Spain and Portugal. So they fenced stolen gold for the Nazis and gave the Nazis money in return. It's as simple as that. People didn't know this until the 1990s, when, uh, Switzerland was sued by a few organizations, including the World Jewish Congress. Um, that was bad enough. So this is coming out at the same time that the secret account stuff is coming out, too. So Switzerland's

• 46:06Josh Clark?

  taking like one, two punches. Haymakers, rope-a-dopes even, left and right. And then on top of that, even worse, um, you said that they were returning 12% of the Nazi gold to its rightful owners as part of the Washington Agreement of 1946. Well, a lot of people, um, who were fleeing Germany, or fleeing the Nazi regime, or fleeing the Holocaust, uh, but wanted to kind of keep their valuables in a safe place, went to Switzerland to, to put money in bank accounts, to put valuable items in safe deposit boxes. And after the war ended, their heirs would show up and say, you know, my grandpa, or my dad,

• 46:45Josh Clark?

  or somebody put this, you know, this family heirloom, this Hope Diamond, in a safe deposit box in your bank. And I'm here to claim it. Here's all the documentation that I'm the rightful heir. And they would say, all of your papers look like they're in order, but I don't see a death certificate. And the heir would say, well, uh, my father, or grandpa, or whatever, died in a concentration camp. The Nazis didn't issue death certificates for that. They kind of wanted to keep it secret. And the Swiss would say, sorry, can't help you. And they did that across the board. So they basically kept hundreds of millions of dollars, is the accusation, of legitimate deposits from legitimate heirs of victims of the Holocaust.

• 47:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. And well, a lot of times, they didn't even have documentation at all, you know, much less death certificates, because that stuff was destroyed in the war. Uh, finally in 1946, uh, they promised to say, all right, we're gonna-

• 47:45Speaker 02

  Find these assets of Holocaust victims from people who have no identifiable heirs, and we're going to at least transfer them to a Jewish reconstruction organization. And decades later, they basically concluded that that didn't really happen. And then 1990, I think, was when you said, finally, like, fully, like, was exposed. And there was a suit from the World Jewish Congress that got a $1.25 billion settlement, finally, in 1998.

• 48:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And again, since then, the Swiss have been doing everything they can to kind of rehabilitate their image. But at the same time, they have also shown, like, they're not ones to just immediately bow to international pressure. The way that you get them is to hit them in their pocketbooks, like threaten their business or their entire banking industry. That's kind of what the pressure from the outside world was doing.

• 48:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure.

• 48:40Josh Clark?

  So they seem to have rebounded largely. There are some other things that make Switzerland peculiar, too, that are much less evil or dark. One is that they really are in a kind of a weird position as far as international groups go. Like, in some ways, like, it makes a lot of sense that they're the host of the International Red Cross headquarters, Geneva is, right? But what about the UN? Should they be members of the UN? The UN does, they have, like, peacekeeping troops with guns and stuff like that. What is, what are the ramifications of Switzerland joining the UN? And they debated that for decades.

• 49:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, they finally, I mean, it wasn't until 2002 that they even joined the UN. And like you said, it took a long time to kind of work out internally whether or not that's something they wanted to do, or if that would kind of ruin all those decades and decades of neutrality that they had become known for. There was a referendum that they eventually voted on whether or not to become a member. And advocates said, you know what? If we get involved with them, we can get involved and still, like, be committed to mediation and humanitarian aid. Like, that will be our role within the UN.

• 49:55Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 49:56Speaker 02

  And it was a pretty close vote. It was 54.6 in favor. And 12, yeah, almost like right at half, 12 out of the 23 cantons voted yes. And then finally, in 2023, it became a non-permanent member of the UN Security Council.

• 50:12Josh Clark?

  That's those peacekeeping troops.

• 50:13Speaker 02

  That's right. And that was another, you know, it wasn't, it was pretty evenly split as well. So like, even within the country, they've always sort of hedged, like, whether or not they wanted to support joining up with these world groups, you know?

• 50:28Josh Clark?

  Right, exactly. And for good reason, too. I mean, it's tricky stuff. One of the, one of the places or one of the groups that they are just roundly rejecting, so much so that they basically told the EU, like, we're not, we're not negotiating anymore. We're not joining the European Union. And the reason why, they actually have pretty legitimate reasons why, especially if you come at life from a business-like attitude. But one is, is that they would immediately be a net contributor. They would be paying out way more than they were benefiting from being a member of the EU. And the reason why is because they basically have cherry treaties with all of the European countries to do business with them, which is like the attractive thing for a rich country

• 51:12Josh Clark?

  to join the EU. So they have that without being a part of the EU, without having to pay into the EU right now. So they have the best of both worlds and a really negative incentive, a number of negative incentives to join the EU.

• 51:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. Another is, they just, they really love taking care of their own business, what they would call direct democracy, and deciding for them what's best for them. And if you're a part of the EU, then obviously you're a part of a larger collective. And you don't, like, just individual citizens' ability to decide things for themselves and have, hold those referendums, that would go away. And so they're not into that. And also just, you know, they built up this neutral brand over the years. And it's not like branding, branding, but it kind of is, in that they don't want to just throw that all away after, again, you know, more than 100 years, more than that, actually, of, like, being known.

• 52:11Speaker 02

  Like, you know, when you think neutral, and you think chocolate, and you think cuckoo clocks and army knives, you think of Switzerland. And they don't want that to go away.

• 52:21Josh Clark?

  Yeah. When you think thirst, you think Sprite. When you think neutral, you think of Switzerland.

• 52:26Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 52:27Josh Clark?

  There's another thing, too, that being a member of the EU means that any member nation, or the residents of any member nation of the EU can move to your place unrestricted, as far as I know. So immigration is free throughout the European Union. And Switzerland's like, we actually are pretty strict on immigration, and we're worried that if we get a lot of people migrating to Switzerland, the wages in Switzerland are going to start to be decompressed because a lot of people migrating here are willing to accept far less than what the average Swiss person is paid. So, yeah, essentially, every, they have all these incentives, you know, morally upstanding or not, to not join the EU.

• 53:10Josh Clark?

  And it does not look like they are ever going to join the EU.

• 53:13Speaker 02

  Yeah. Or NATO, obviously, that's a warring organization.

• 53:17Josh Clark?

  For sure.

• 53:18Speaker 02

  Or, or not a warring organization, but a military alliance.

• 53:20Josh Clark?

  For sure. And for all of its blemishes and rough spots and all that, I hope Switzerland stays Switzerland, you know? It would be a-

• 53:28Speaker 02

  I think everyone does.

• 53:29Josh Clark?

  I think the world would kind of lose something if, if Switzerland just became like any other country, you know?

• 53:34Speaker 02

  Agreed.

• 53:35Josh Clark?

  Well, that's Switzerland, Chuck. Swiss neutrality, I should say.

• 53:39Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 53:40Josh Clark?

  If you want to know more about Swiss neutrality, travel to Switzerland or watch a documentary on Switzerland. And in the meantime, it's time for Listener Mail.

• 53:50Speaker 02

  This is another MASH follow-up. Hey, guys, huge MASH fan. I'm a bit older than Chuck and still only 12 when it debuted. It was a perfect blend of comedy and poignant drama, showing the horrors of war. I always thought the writing was brilliant and did take characters on a great growth arc. Being a closeted gay kid, now openly and very happy gay man, it was one of the first times that a TV show dealt with the subject of homosexuality in a sympathetic way, even if only on one episode. I was such a fan that I developed a MASH trivia game, similar to Trivial Pursuit. And a number of details you mentioned in your episode were part of the game, like Toledo and Tony Paco. So, great job, guys.

• 54:35Speaker 02

  You always do a great job and are so pleasant to listen to on my daily walks. And whenever you guys touch on LGTBQ+ topics, you do an amazing job as two straight guys. So thank you for that. And that is from Dave in Vancouver. And Dave, I hope you're coming to see our live show in Vancouver.

• 54:51Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 54:52Speaker 02

  We can't wait. There's still tickets available for all of the, well, I guess the first leg will be over by this time, but that second leg in July, I believe, is probably somewhere around this time. So we'd love to see everyone.

• 55:03Josh Clark?

  Coming up quick, Dave. So, yeah, we'd love to see you, too. You can watch us be two straight guys live and in person.

• 55:10Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 55:11Josh Clark?

  If you want to be like Dave and let us know how much you like us, we really appreciate those kind of emails, or you can say whatever you like. Whatever you have to say, send it off to [email protected].

• 55:24Speaker 00

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 55:44Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it starts with a great deal on an off-road-ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's longest-lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures, and style in between. And they're built on a reputation for quality and reliability, which is why Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop Toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places. Introducing Voices of Vivart. Vivart is also known as its generic name, Efgart Tigamod Alpha F-Cab. And this new show features firsthand stories from people living with a rare disease.

• 56:25Josh Clark?

  Hosted by Andrew Stratton, these perspectives highlight that life is more than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Living with a rare disease can be challenging, but it does not define the Voices of Vivart. In these episodes, they share their stories, from diagnosis to working with their care team on their treatment plan. Listen to Voices of Vivart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's play a quick game. When I say Carnival Cruise, what comes to mind? Maybe a buffet, maybe a lively Lido deck, or maybe you've already decided cruising isn't for you. But we can assure you, a Carnival Cruise isn't what you think. From casual bites to five-star dining, laugh-out-loud comedy, a relaxing spa, and unforgettable shore excursions, Carnival has everything you want in a vacation.

• 57:10Josh Clark?

  So take another look, then book your next getaway at carnival.com. Ships registry, the Bahamas, and Panama.

• 57:17Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.