S13 EP30: Jon Ronson

Joining us this episode to discuss the highs and lows of parenting (and life) is the journalist, author, and filmmaker - Jon Ronson. Jon's brilliant new book 'The Castle: Adventures in a World of Unravelling Men' is available to purchase now. Parenting Hell is available to watch on Spotify every Tuesday and Friday. Please subscribe and leave a rating and review you filthy street dogs... xxx If you want to get in touch with the show with any correspondence, kids intro audio clips, small business shout outs, and more.... here's how: EMAIL: [email protected] Follow us on instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@parentinghell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Sales, advertising, and general enquiries: [email protected] A 'Keep It Light Media' Production (Copyright 2026) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:32Speaker 01

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• 1:00Speaker 02

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• 1:02Speaker 03

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• 1:04Speaker 02

  Oh, you've got to love it. Who wouldn't love it, Rob?

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• 1:46Speaker 02

  Atol and Abta protected.

• 1:51Speaker 03

  This is Parenting Hell with...

• 1:53Speaker 04

  Penny, can you say Josh Widdicombe?

• 1:57Speaker 05

  Josh Widdicombe.

• 1:59Speaker 04

  And can you say Rob Beckett?

• 2:02Speaker 05

  Rob Beckett.

• 2:03Speaker 04

  Well done.

• 2:05Speaker 02

  There we go.

• 2:06Speaker 03

  Very sultry voice.

• 2:07Speaker 02

  Hi Rob, Josh and Michael.

• 2:19Speaker 02

  This is my 43 month old Penny, who, we also have an 11 month old Bee.

• 2:26Speaker 03

  Did they live that long? Thought they were like butterflies.

• 2:31Speaker 03

  I thought it was one day and done. Good on them. What are you feeding it?

• 2:36Speaker 03

  Bet they go through some flowers.

• 2:40Speaker 03

  Like Elton John's house.

• 2:51Speaker 02

  Shall I finish the sentence because you'll have a bit more fun with it?

• 2:54Speaker 03

  Go on.

• 2:55Speaker 02

  He wants to have an 11 month year old Bee who's been awake every half hour.

• 3:01Speaker 03

  Because he's buzzing themselves awake.

• 3:04Speaker 02

  I've opened the window for God's sake.

• 3:08Speaker 03

  I might let him out.

• 3:09Speaker 02

  It's just pattering again and again. It's like another moon.

• 3:16Speaker 02

  Thanks for keeping my day survival, Charlotte.

• 3:18Speaker 03

  Oh, thanks, Charlotte.

• 3:19Speaker 02

  She's put her phone number in. I know people do, but we're rushing through these because we've got to go for lunch.

• 3:24Speaker 03

  Shall I give her a quick chat? We've got John Ronson coming on, Charlotte. I'll ask her how her Bee's going.

• 3:33Speaker 06

  Hello?

• 3:34Speaker 02

  Hi Charlotte, it's Josh Widdicombe and Rob Beckett.

• 3:36Speaker 03

  Hi.

• 3:37Speaker 06

  Are you joking?

• 3:39Speaker 02

  No.

• 3:39Speaker 03

  Always can't stop us.

• 3:42Speaker 06

  What the hell? Are you joking?

• 3:44Speaker 02

  No.

• 3:46Speaker 03

  You emailed us.

• 3:47Speaker 02

  You said that's your phone number.

• 3:49Speaker 06

  I know, I know.

• 3:50Speaker 02

  Don't have a go at us.

• 3:52Speaker 06

  Wait, wait. It's because I was expecting you to be recording in the morning. I didn't know that you were there.

• 3:57Speaker 02

  Oh, sorry.

• 3:58Speaker 03

  Sorry, oh, sorry.

• 4:01Speaker 06

  Oh, my God, I'm so stung, Rob.

• 4:03Speaker 02

  You sent this at 7:35 AM on Monday.

• 4:06Speaker 03

  Don't know how a bumblebee survives in that house.

• 4:09Speaker 02

  How's Bee?

• 4:09Speaker 06

  I, um, yeah, she's okay. She's a baby. She's, she's walking around. She's like a baby, so she's moving all the time.

• 4:18Speaker 03

  They don't stop moving.

• 4:20Speaker 06

  I know, it's...

• 4:21Speaker 03

  Buzzing around the place.

• 4:23Speaker 06

  Yeah. Bumblebeeing, yeah.

• 4:27Speaker 02

  I'll be honest, when I read it out, Rob did have a laugh at the thought. You've got an 11 month year old Bee.

• 4:34Speaker 02

  This is the way he wrote it, but...

• 4:36Speaker 03

  We've had a good old laugh about that.

• 4:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, we had a laugh about that before we came on, full disclosure.

• 4:40Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah.

• 4:44Speaker 03

  It's good to know that our listeners roll their eyes at our stuff.

• 4:47Speaker 02

  Um, Charlotte, so what are you doing today?

• 4:51Speaker 06

  Um, I've just dropped them both off at my in-laws.

• 4:57Speaker 02

  Your in-laws?

• 4:58Speaker 06

  So I've got the house to myself.

• 5:00Speaker 03

  Oh, lovely, queen Bee.

• 5:03Speaker 06

  Yeah. Well, oh yeah, I guess I am the queen Bee.

• 5:09Speaker 02

  How's this going for you? It is a weird thing to happen to you, isn't it? Sorry.

• 5:12Speaker 06

  I'm just like, yeah, I just, it's really weird to hear you on the phone because I'm used, I've literally just been listening to your podcast cleaning. So I'm just, it's weird to hear you. I actually scheduled the email because...

• 5:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, I could see your timing.

• 5:27Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 5:28Speaker 02

  7:35 AM and 52 seconds. You know when to send it.

• 5:31Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah.

• 5:33Speaker 02

  Well...

• 5:33Speaker 06

  I was actually going to say, I was just listening to the podcast.

• 5:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:37Speaker 06

  And it was, I was listening to the bit where Rob said about the annoying child counting.

• 5:44Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 5:45Speaker 06

  And I was saying, I was thinking that, you know, you said you really like it when it's your own child.

• 5:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:51Speaker 06

  But I actually don't like it even if it's my own.

• 5:57Speaker 06

  And I was like, oh no, am I a really bad parent?

• 6:00Speaker 03

  No, I know. To be honest, I say that just to look likeable.

• 6:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. A lot of it's for show.

• 6:05Speaker 03

  A lot of it, you have to sort of do that because it's a public facing thing, but yeah.

• 6:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:09Speaker 06

  Yeah, I mean, you both come across really well, so.

• 6:14Speaker 02

  Do you know what? You're a good guest, Charlotte. Um, thank you very much. You'll be, um, your, your episode will be out soon.

• 6:21Speaker 03

  This is the John Ronson episode.

• 6:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, the John Ronson as the guest episode. So when you see the name John Ronson come up as a guest, you know that there's going to be a bit of Bee chat and then we get you on the phone.

• 6:33Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 6:34Speaker 02

  Do you know what? You have been good. You have been excellent.

• 6:36Speaker 03

  What's your job, Charlotte?

• 6:37Speaker 06

  Thank you, thank you.

• 6:39Speaker 03

  What's Charlotte's job?

• 6:40Speaker 02

  What's your job?

• 6:42Speaker 06

  Oh no, you're going to hate this. I'm a GP receptionist.

• 6:45Speaker 02

  That's all right.

• 6:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, because I'm getting the attitude.

• 6:49Speaker 06

  Oh, okay.

• 6:51Speaker 06

  Yeah, I'm actually really good, so.

• 6:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, they normally think that.

• 6:56Speaker 06

  Yeah, exactly. That's why I'm so good at my job.

• 6:59Speaker 03

  Any chance of an appointment? I've got a dodgy ear, it's crackling.

• 7:02Speaker 06

  Oh, no.

• 7:03Speaker 03

  No, okay, all right.

• 7:05Speaker 03

  Cool, thanks.

• 7:06Speaker 02

  All right. Cheers, mate.

• 7:08Speaker 06

  Thank you.

• 7:08Speaker 02

  Speak to you soon. Bye.

• 7:11Speaker 03

  The irony of managing to get a GP receptionist on the fucking phone.

• 7:14Speaker 02

  A bit of fun.

• 7:15Speaker 03

  Unbelievable.

• 7:16Speaker 02

  I liked her.

• 7:17Speaker 03

  Here's John Ron... Imagine if you just tuned in for John Ronson?

• 7:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's odd.

• 7:20Speaker 03

  Hmm, anyway, enjoy.

• 7:24Speaker 02

  John Ronson, hello?

• 7:25Speaker 07

  Hey, Josh, hey, how are you doing?

• 7:27Speaker 03

  Oh, thanks for doing this.

• 7:28Speaker 07

  Oh, thank you.

• 7:29Speaker 03

  And we're, we're very excited. I'm excited because...

• 7:32Speaker 02

  I'm a mega fan.

• 7:32Speaker 03

  He's, yeah, he's like bubbling a little bit. I can feel it.

• 7:35Speaker 02

  Well, I've been to various events you've done. I've read all your books.

• 7:40Speaker 03

  I know where you live.

• 7:41Speaker 02

  I once went to one of your signings. This was before you, we were just talking about the big venues that you play. I went to a signing at a Waterstones in Hampstead, maybe?

• 7:51Speaker 07

  Oh, you know, yeah, okay.

• 7:53Speaker 02

  And I remember queuing up. I had a question for you. I said, how do you get into being a writer? And I thought, he's going to unlock everything here.

• 8:01Speaker 07

  What did I say?

• 8:02Speaker 02

  He said, just write a lot. And I thought, that's not what I wanted to hear.

• 8:07Speaker 03

  Well, that's...

• 8:08Speaker 02

  But it's now, now I look back, it's correct.

• 8:10Speaker 07

  I guess. I think what I'd say now is find a story that you're passionate about telling.

• 8:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:15Speaker 07

  Find a mystery to solve.

• 8:16Speaker 03

  You gave, John?

• 8:17Speaker 07

  Just write a lot. Well, you know, there's that too. It's like, that's like the Malcolm Gladwell possibly debunked 10,000 hour rule.

• 8:25Speaker 02

  Is that debunked now?

• 8:26Speaker 07

  Actually, I don't know.

• 8:26Speaker 03

  Well, let's go back because I interrupted John from giving actual advice that people listening now will be furious with me for. What would your advice be to us by writing now?

• 8:33Speaker 07

  I would say find a story that you're passionate about telling. Things always go wrong if you're forced into telling a story that you're not that into.

• 8:42Speaker 07

  If it's like a mystery to solve, that's always good for me. Like, that's always the wind behind my sails. And care as much about how you write it as what, what it's about. Because I think a lot of non-fiction writers, this is, this is advice for non-fiction writers. Because a lot of non-fiction writers, you think of writing as like a kind of information delivery service. And I'm always trying to encourage people to take some of the flourishes that you expect from fiction. Cliffhangers and page readers and unreliable narrators and leaving things unsaid, reading between the lines, all of that stuff. So, yeah, those are like the three.

• 9:15Speaker 03

  Oh, so you can use that within the non-fiction?

• 9:17Speaker 07

  Oh, yeah.

• 9:17Speaker 02

  But when I was queuing up and you were trying to get through the queue, you just needed to say, just write a lot.

• 9:24Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah, those days of doing bookstore... Events. I remember that. Funny enough, I do remember that one. I remember it being good. But I did one at the Borders in Birmingham when the Minister of Goats first came out. And it was quite poorly advertised, I think. And anyway, four people showed up. And during the Q and A.

• 9:43Speaker 07

  Oh, I went ahead and during the Q and A, one of the four people said, I don't know why you seem so annoyed with us. We're the ones who came.

• 9:54Speaker 07

  That's so true because you are frustrated when it's small.

• 9:59Speaker 07

  I'm like paranoid looking at them as if they'd conspired to cover small numbers. These four told everyone else not to come so that they could have to yourself. I know, right?

• 10:08Speaker 02

  But credit you for going ahead.

• 10:10Speaker 07

  Yeah, I mean, I'm very grumpily.

• 10:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:12Speaker 07

  This was 2004, like I was. Wouldn't it be better just go to the pub with them? Just have an afternoon out and just go, look, let's sat this off now.

• 10:20Speaker 02

  Also, it's sales. You know, you've sold four books, Max.

• 10:23Speaker 07

  And did someone from the bookshop have to walk along with the microphone to the four people instead? To be honest, my memory serves, and this could be a sort of bleak paranoid half memory. That like no one from the bookshop even like came over to say hello. I was just in some little corner somewhere with four people, like some sort of sad, middle aged sex party. I mention that because I just have the image of, and so you've been publicly shamed about how this vicar was like inviting people to sex parties in a caravan. And for some reason, that image just.

• 10:53Speaker 02

  That takes about two more.

• 10:55Speaker 07

  It's a hard image to get out of your head when it's been there once before.

• 10:56Speaker 02

  When I worked at Waterstones Manchester, we had.

• 11:00Speaker 07

  This is a sponsored episode.

• 11:01Speaker 02

  This is a sponsored episode. I wish. We had someone turn up. Have I told you this story before?

• 11:08Speaker 07

  I don't know, potentially.

• 11:10Speaker 02

  The person who was organising this person's talk had been rivals with this person at uni. So it was quite belittling for the person.

• 11:17Speaker 07

  So what?

• 11:18Speaker 02

  So the person who worked at Waterstones.

• 11:19Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 11:20Speaker 02

  Had been rivals with the person whose talk he had to organise. He had received it since university. And he was clearly quite stressed about it.

• 11:27Speaker 07

  Because now he was in a sort of subsidiary position.

• 11:30Speaker 02

  And then the guy showed up and the guy didn't remember him.

• 11:34Speaker 07

  Oh.

• 11:34Speaker 02

  And it was, but then no one showed up to the, to the signing. So there was this kind of switch of power. And the guy who worked at Waterstones got us all from the top floor to take off our badges and go down as if we were customers to make it a better experience for the guy who's previously rival. So it was like a lovely moral kind of beautiful moment.

• 11:56Speaker 07

  Yeah, very thoughtful.

• 11:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, very thoughtful from someone who was really embarrassed by the whole situation. So, you know, what I'm saying is those four might have worked there.

• 12:04Speaker 07

  I had a memory this morning of, I don't know why this popped into my head this morning as I was lying in bed. But it was an event at some book festival and before me, this woman was on, like a young woman, but she'd written a novel about an elderly woman who'd lost her husband. And it was a novel about grief. And I came in just as she was finishing her talk and I was like, on next. And she said, does anybody have any questions? And the audience was all elderly women. And one of them put her hand up and said, I'm an elderly woman. And I don't know if she said that, but she said, I want you to know that your book is not in the slightest bit true to life. It's my experience of losing my husband was nothing like the way that you described it. Your book just didn't speak to me at all. Oh my God.

• 12:47Speaker 07

  And the author burst into tears. Oh my God. And ran off the stage. And then it was like, and now.

• 12:57Speaker 02

  Oh my word. We're best off out the signing game.

• 13:00Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah. And like, I'm sorry to let people down.

• 13:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, like Ringo Starr.

• 13:06Speaker 07

  Like Ringo. Does he not sign? Oh yeah, he doesn't, does he?

• 13:09Speaker 02

  He does that. He did that video, peace and love, peace and love. Yeah.

• 13:12Speaker 07

  Yeah. So you do not sign books at all? Not after the show. Not after, but you do, if someone had one in the street.

• 13:18Speaker 02

  I've got a signed copy. I've got a signed copy of The Castle.

• 13:20Speaker 07

  Okay, right, I must, yeah.

• 13:22Speaker 02

  I hope that's you.

• 13:23Speaker 07

  It was me, it was me. No, I'm only talking, I'm talking about a very narrow parameter here. Like if I'm doing a show, straight after the show, that's the only time I don't sign. Just because it takes like two hours. And honestly, I'd be curious to know what you think of this. Like, there's nothing worse than touring if you've got a cold. And your chance of getting a cold is greatly enhanced.

• 13:42Speaker 02

  Oh, I was gonna go with, there's nothing worse than having people feed back to you off the show.

• 13:47Speaker 07

  Right, no, no, no, no. Well, like I used to, back in the day when I did smaller rooms on tour, I used to shake everyone's hand as they left the gig. Oh, really? Yeah, which again, it does increases the chance of getting a cold. Okay. But I, I'm quite anti the cold. I think it sort of doesn't really exist. Oh, you're a cold denier? I'm a cold denier. I either think you've either got the flu or you're all right. Do you know what I mean? So, but I think that does boil down to being self-employed. Because if you accept you've got a cold, you have to cancel gigs. But I totally agree because I started to get ill because you are just exchanging hand fluid with two, 300 people a night. Well, this is exactly what happened to me. After the show anyway, never mind with the. Right, yeah. Some years ago, I gave a talk somewhere on the Welsh English border. I can't remember the name of the town.

• 14:30Speaker 07

  But I shook everybody's hand on the way out, like 200, 250 people, and then immediately put my hand in my mouth and.

• 14:38Speaker 02

  Why did you do that?

• 14:39Speaker 07

  Because I wasn't thinking. And, and that was the first day on the tour. And I still remember the agony of going from place to place. Get ill, yeah, no, you're right. You don't want to be doing that after each gig.

• 14:50Speaker 02

  So on the subject of parenting, this, your book starts with your son. So you've got one son.

• 14:57Speaker 07

  I've got one son. He's 28.

• 14:59Speaker 02

  28.

• 15:00Speaker 07

  Jesus. 20? Jesus. You're looking good on it. Thank you. How old are you, John? I'm 59. You look a lot younger. Well, thank you. Well, I go, I, you know, I try and take care of myself. I thought you looked like a completely fucked 40 year old.

• 15:17Speaker 07

  Is that a compliment? I, yeah, it's not bad. I was saying to my son's girlfriend actually the other day that it's, it's good that there's something to be said for having a kid when you're young. Yeah. Because by the time they get to 18, you've still got like a load of life left.

• 15:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, trying to talk her into it.

• 15:33Speaker 07

  No, God, no, shit. Up to hell she didn't take that as a, as that.

• 15:40Speaker 02

  Your son, tell us about the start of this book. Well, tell Rob, because Rob comes no research.

• 15:44Speaker 07

  No, no, no, and that's, look.

• 15:47Speaker 02

  This is his tactic.

• 15:48Speaker 07

  Okay. My tactic, I know John will read, John, Josh, I don't research my co-hosts. I know Josh reads every book because he, he's a very much do his homework kind of guy. And I respect that and he's a good guy. So one of us has done that already. So I think, and it's basically the reason for not reading it, is that I don't want to have a preconception of you and the book until I've actually sat down with you. Because if I think I know you already, then I won't actually find out who you are when I meet you. Right.

• 16:13Speaker 02

  As an interviewer, what do you make of that?

• 16:14Speaker 07

  I know, I'm all for that. And I've done that at times. I've gone off on adventures. When I tried to sneak into the Bilderberg Group in my book Them, I deliberately didn't know research at all. I didn't want to know what I was getting into. I just wanted to be a feather in the wind of the story. Yes, I'm a feather in the wind. I'm Forrest Gump. I'm the little feather of Forrest Gump. It's also, it's also a metaphor for being lazy. Yeah, absolutely, yeah. But I would argue that there's certain occasions when doing absolutely no, there's certain occasions when doing like loads of research is a lot to do. There's certain occasions when doing no research. Yeah, and that certain occasion is my entire life. Welcome to the show. So I can tell you what, how this book begins. Right. So what, what's the book? You're a, you're a virgin to this tale. Mmm, I'm a virgin to your tale. Yeah.

• 16:59Speaker 07

  I, I wake up. Yep. This story crashed unannounced into my life while I was asleep. I woke up and there was a series of texts from my son, Joel. This is three years ago. So I read the last text first and the last text said, we left, that was completely fucked. We're okay now. So then I read the other texts and it turns out that he and three friends had been invited to a party. Yeah. Being held by a stranger that one of them had met earlier that week on Tinder. So they, they drive out of New York City into the three hour drive into the forests of Connecticut. Yeah. And when they get to this man's house, it's so strange.

• 17:42Speaker 07

  Joel did something he's never done before. He sent me the coordinates and a photograph. To say where he is, because he was worried. So this man's house, you have to like see it for yourself. He's 25 at this. He's not like a 17 year old on a first night out. He's an adult man. Yeah, they piled into the car and just went to this party. But this man's house was a vast newly built Gothic castle that was ostentatious even by Gothic castle standards. It's like the Disney castle filtered through the prism of complete insanity. Way too many turrets, gargoyles, drawbridge.

• 18:23Speaker 02

  How many turrets is too many turrets?

• 18:25Speaker 07

  If you see a picture of the castle, you would have the answer to that question. Throw it off. There must be 25 turrets maybe in this castle. Okay. It's like, it's, it's like, it's almost like it was designed by AI. It was like an AI. AI slum castle. Yeah. So they cross the drawbridge and enter the grand banqueting hall to discover that there was no party. It was a trick. There was a small number of equally bewildered young people standing around awkwardly. And they all had no idea why they were there. They all thought it was supposed, it was going to be a party. So there's no one there, no party? No, no party. I'm in. Maybe eight, 10. God, I wish I did research because I know it all now. Well, do you want to see what happens next?

• 19:09Speaker 07

  Well, does it ruin the book? No, this is like the first page. Oh my God, fucking hell, it's gonna be a good book then. That's what I want, page. I would have strung that out over three episodes. I'm halfway through page one at this stage. Right. So the castle owner comes out and they said, sorry, but where's the party? And he said, oh no, I've invited you here for a different reason. I would like you all to take part in my reality show. So Joel said, what's the name of your reality show? He said, it's called 101 Princesses. They said, what's the concept? What's the core concept? He said, I'm the king, I'm looking for my queen. I have 101 princesses to choose from. And then he said to the two women in Joel's party, go downstairs to my basement costume room,

• 19:52Speaker 07

  put on some princess costumes and come back upstairs. So they went downstairs.

• 19:58Speaker 02

  They did it.

• 19:59Speaker 07

  Oh, yeah, passing all the red flags.

• 20:04Speaker 03

  Why did they do that? Just out of intrigue.

• 20:08Speaker 07

  Okay, so, you know, I've thought a lot about that question. Young people in a slightly odd situation, well, not slightly odd, an extremely odd situation. Eager to please, susceptible to the pressure this man is putting on them. Also, there was the hint of a work opportunity. And it's hard for young people to catch a break these days, yeah. Everyone's a hustler, everyone's a content creator or an influencer, and everyone's desperately trying to clutch hold of something. And I think that might have been the reason why they were propelled down to this man's skeevy basement. So they go down, dressed up as princesses. Joel and his male friend, whose name happens to be Cement.

• 20:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, I wondered that. When I was reading it.

• 20:52Speaker 03

  Cement?

• 20:52Speaker 02

  Is that his real name?

• 20:54Speaker 07

  I don't know if it's his real name, but I didn't want to dwell too much on it.

• 20:58Speaker 03

  It's his married name. It used to be called Sand Gravel of War.

• 21:05Speaker 07

  I, yeah, I thought there's so much other weirdness in this story that's more pertinent to the narrative.

• 21:09Speaker 03

  The Cement bit, though.

• 21:10Speaker 07

  But I think.

• 21:11Speaker 03

  Is that annoying for you as a writer, though? Because it sort of feels like that's really drawing away here.

• 21:14Speaker 07

  It does a little bit. And, you know, in retrospect, I probably should have explained that I think he's a goth.

• 21:20Speaker 02

  Right, okay. That's in brackets.

• 21:23Speaker 03

  He might be a goth.

• 21:24Speaker 02

  Probably a goth.

• 21:26Speaker 07

  So they dress up in tuxedos, then they all head back upstairs and a videographer appears. So an actual videographer is there in the castle. But the videographer keeps breaking off and filming to cut up meat for the castle owner. There's this huge slab of meat that only the castle owner is eating. No one else is allowed any of the meat. So they start to think, okay, this isn't a real reality show.

• 21:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 21:51Speaker 07

  So he kicks them out after they refuse to participate. And then not agree to invite a journalist to send to your strange, mysterious castle. Because I then went to the castle. And maybe, and that's like, that's like the first couple of pages. So maybe on that cliffhanger, I should stop.

• 22:11Speaker 03

  Yeah. By the way, couldn't we just take a moment for one of the greatest pitches? For anyone, what a promo that was.

• 22:20Speaker 07

  Right, thank you.

• 22:21Speaker 03

  That was unbelievable, like.

• 22:23Speaker 02

  He was doing that in Beresford, Edmunds last night.

• 22:25Speaker 07

  I, you know, I slightly varied it, there were some variations.

• 22:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, so, so the, the book is about you sort of then digging deeper into what's going on up there?

• 22:32Speaker 07

  Well, that's how it begins. I start to dig deeper, try and find out what the hell is going on inside the castle. Because it's very strange cat and mouse game begins between me and the castle owner. Where, for instance, he starts telling me that he has two murderers on his payroll. Called Carlos and Brandon. And if I ever write negatively about his castle, Carlos and Brandon would be very upset. And they've only just gone out of prison for killing somebody. So that, so that's half the book is like, is, is me trying to figure out what's going on inside the castle. But then the other thing I, I thought was, this is actually a book about men out of time. And men who've lost purpose. This guy's trying to be Hugh Hefner at the worst moment in human history to be Hugh Hefner.

• 23:18Speaker 07

  And I thought that was funny. And then I thought, my original title for the book was, I thought, I'll write a book about all the things that men can't do that they used to be able to do. And I'll call it The Impossibility of Keeping a Harim in the Post Me Too Age.

• 23:33Speaker 07

  So then it morphs into also being a book about how, I focused on men, but it's about everyone, really. How all the old structures are collapsing, the old institutions, everyone's being encouraged to be like personal brands. Institutions have won, like content creators. But as a result of all of these weird changes in society, a lot of people feel like they're cut adrift. The castle owners rattling around in a castle, looking for purpose. The reason why I went to the castle was because I was just out of surgery. I'd had like a major operation like a week earlier. And I was thinking, oh, my purpose is going. So these two older men, our lives collided because we both had this weird need to have purpose in our lives.

• 24:18Speaker 07

  And are equally in some ways, well, actually, I wouldn't say equally dysfunctional ways, because I wasn't luring and suspecting women to my castle. But, you know, but, but I was really interested in that. And then I thought, well, we're living in a time where a lot of people feel like they're losing their purpose in life. And purpose and structure and work is so important for our wellbeing. That if we don't work, we, we go nuts and.

• 24:43Speaker 02

  It's like you booking another tour.

• 24:45Speaker 03

  Well, and well, that's the thing, I think people lose their identity and like, and self-worth within a career. Which is good because you've got purpose, but if that becomes all encompassing, then if things don't go quite well at work, then your head goes the other way. So it's, that's, that's why work-life balance is always the thing people, that's half our podcast is about. You need purpose, but it needs to be well balanced within the rest of your life.

• 25:07Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 25:08Speaker 03

  And because also as well, if you drop the work stuff and focus on the family too much, then that can create resentment towards family because you've sacrificed. So it's almost like a, trying to get a perfect, it's trying to get the jacuzzi, the right pH level. I don't know if you've ever had a jacuzzi, but.

• 25:20Speaker 02

  I've never had the.

• 25:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's an absolute nightmare.

• 25:22Speaker 07

  Right. Yes, I, I completely agree with you and I don't let myself off in this book. My need for purpose and the fact that all my self-esteem is wrapped up in my work is, is kind of front and centre. Because, you know, me going off and putting myself on all of these dangerous scrapes in this book and in previous books is all because of this sort of weird. I say in the book that I'd just come out of hospital. And had a foot of my colon removed due to diverticulitis. It's a lot.

• 25:51Speaker 02

  How much colon is that?

• 25:52Speaker 07

  Well, apparently it goes all the way, all the way to China. I think it goes like all the way to the ceiling.

• 25:57Speaker 03

  Transition to the intestine at some point, isn't it? The colon is all the way up.

• 26:00Speaker 07

  I said to the, I said to the surgeon the next day, when he came in to check on me, I said, so how much of my colon did you take out? And they're like, I don't know, that much? Which I realise doesn't work well for people just listening to this.

• 26:15Speaker 02

  It's good, we need to drive people to the visuals. We need to drive people to the visuals, John.

• 26:18Speaker 03

  I'd say it was a comic estimation on the size of a fish you've caught. That kind of hand movement for anyone listening.

• 26:23Speaker 07

  So, so I was convalescing by trying to come up with new story ideas.

• 26:28Speaker 02

  Do you worry that as a family, with your family, does it, did it affect? I mean, you've had a kid for most of your career, but do you go, I shouldn't really do this because I've got a wife and a son?

• 26:40Speaker 07

  In case.

• 26:41Speaker 02

  In case I get.

• 26:42Speaker 07

  I get killed.

• 26:43Speaker 02

  Killed by Carlos.

• 26:44Speaker 07

  I always remember.

• 26:45Speaker 03

  And Brandon.

• 26:45Speaker 07

  And Brandon. Yeah, although my wife's always weirdly, it's a slightly, slightly explicit, so encouraging.

• 26:54Speaker 03

  I've made your sandwich.

• 26:54Speaker 07

  There was this time right at the beginning of my career, I was chased by the Bilderberg Group. I was, I was in a car chase, I tried to infiltrate this meeting called the Bilderberg meeting, which is purported by conspiracy theorists to be the secret rulers of the world. And it all went terribly wrong and their shadowy henchmen stroke security guards started chasing me through Portugal. A car chase ensued. I say a car chase, I was going 30 miles an hour and so was he, but if I'd sped up, he would have sped up.

• 27:22Speaker 07

  And I phoned my wife and I said, Elaine, like, this is really terrible. I'm completely out of my depth. I'm so sorry, like, I don't even know if I'm gonna make this. And she went, oh, you're loving it.

• 28:13Speaker 03

  Obviously, you write these books and you like pick a subject or it comes through a text message from your son. But I feel like if you weren't writing these books, you'd be end up doing this kind of stuff anyway. It's sort of part of who you are. We're saying we're comedians, you know, we do, I sort of feel like being a comedian is I live my life and then I get on stage and that's basically, I'm a comedian all day because just stuff happens to me. It's the universe draws it to me in a comical way, same with Josh and stuff. But then on stage or like in your book, that's almost like the match of the day highlights of what is the life I'm living.

• 28:44Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah, I think that's true. But, and I'm really interested, though, in why, because I don't think I've got a particularly functional relationship with work. I think I, I rely on it too much. I remember asking the singer Randy Newman, why, why do you write songs? And he said, it's how I judge myself and how I feel better. And it's true that like, when I got in my car eight days after my surgery to drive to this castle. And every time my car hit a bump, it would tear at my scar and I'd let out a sudden unexpected shriek.

• 29:14Speaker 02

  Your short colon.

• 29:14Speaker 07

  Yeah. Like some kind of tormented castle visitor from Edgar Allan Poe level. But the sense of wellbeing, I felt. That I wouldn't have empty days, I was on a journey, I was embarking on a mystery. That sense of wellbeing filled me with more sort of a feeling of warmth than a painkiller. It was more powerful than a painkiller.

• 29:40Speaker 03

  Has it ever got overwhelming, though, to the point where like, that is too much? And it's not enjoyable or giving you the sort of, the negatives outweigh the benefits?

• 29:48Speaker 07

  Oh, totally, yeah, like all the time.

• 29:53Speaker 07

  There's a line in the book where I say that, you know, I'm sitting on a park bench after my surgery, desperately trying to come up with a story idea. But after 10 minutes of fruitlessly sitting on a bench, I'm just overwhelmed by this terrible thought, which is, I'm just a man sitting on a bench.

• 30:09Speaker 03

  Isn't that supposed to be like, if you are just a man sitting at the bench, then you've sort of made it? That's a sort of, if you into the spirituality of mindfulness and all that, that's, that's the goal to get to. But that filled, filled you with worry?

• 30:21Speaker 07

  Yeah, I mean, you'd hope that was how one would feel, but turns out it's not. It's only after me.

• 30:29Speaker 07

  Just before the pandemic, I went to Esalen, the human potential place in Northern California. It's where all this stuff, sound baths and kind of wellness all began at Esalen. So I went there and I went to a sound bath and I just was like twiddling my thumbs and everybody else was like so chilled. And later in the naked hot tub that they have, this woman said to me, um, you know, I, I watched you in the sound bath. Like you didn't relax for a second. It's like, you know, I just can't, I'm not very good at getting myself out of my own head.

• 31:02Speaker 02

  And do you worry that if you did get good at that, your productivity would?

• 31:06Speaker 07

  Would go down. You'd probably be a bit happier, which goes back to the work, life balance thing. And also, by the way, the fact that if you're a writer and you're also a parent and you end up writing about your family life, then that's work, life balance going terribly wrong.

• 31:24Speaker 03

  Tell us about it.

• 31:24Speaker 07

  Yeah. I'm so curious about that. So I used to write a column for the Guardian.

• 31:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:30Speaker 07

  And, and it was about-

• 31:32Speaker 02

  It was the book of those that I got signed.

• 31:34Speaker 07

  Okay. Oh, right. Out of the ordinary.

• 31:37Speaker 02

  Out of the ordinary, yeah.

• 31:39Speaker 07

  So, yeah, I was desperate to, I didn't want to miss my son growing up, so I stopped working. I stopped travelling to America and I stayed home, but I thought, well, I've got to do something. So I decided to write a column about my domestic life. But you start to realise, and I'd love to know what you think about this, it was terrible because I was a weekly column. So I started till I really hoped that something bad would happen to my family. So I'd have some material.

• 32:06Speaker 07

  So, do you, what are you getting at?

• 32:09Speaker 02

  Do you know what does happen? So first, the positive of the podcast, if something bad happens, not necessarily to my family, but say-

• 32:16Speaker 07

  I mean, I'm obviously happy.

• 32:17Speaker 03

  You're driving back from a holiday and you get a flat tyre.

• 32:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, that is a pure negative in real life, but now you are like, oh, that is something.

• 32:26Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 32:26Speaker 02

  So when I had my number plate cloned or whatever, and you're going through this hell of, you know, this kind of hell of, the police refusing to accept all that kind of stuff.

• 32:37Speaker 07

  So what, like driving in a bus lane or worse, even worse?

• 32:40Speaker 02

  I kept getting tickets. I got two tickets, one at 1am, one at 3am. And I was just like, what's going on here? And I genuinely went to my wife and I said, um, I think someone's stealing our car at night.

• 32:58Speaker 02

  Parking back into the same spot, like kind of time sharing in my head that I didn't know about cloning number plates.

• 33:06Speaker 07

  Well, I mean, I didn't until you, I mean, yeah.

• 33:09Speaker 03

  But I think there was moments where you was on stage in like Edinburgh and people were driving and you had like a rock song in the alibi.

• 33:15Speaker 07

  That is so funny.

• 33:16Speaker 02

  But when stuff like that happens, you're like, well, that is, what would be a hundred percent frustrating in real life is at least something.

• 33:23Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 33:24Speaker 03

  And by making it funny as well, releases attention from it slightly, I find.

• 33:28Speaker 07

  And, and makes the world a little bit better. I definitely noticed that. So, so in the castle, in the, in the new book, but this has happened lots of times in the past too, that when something really frightening happened to me. So I'm driving Joel from upstate New York into Manhattan, when the castle owner starts texting me like a lot. And that's when he says he has two murderers on his payroll and Joel's reading the, I'm asking Joel, because I'm driving, I'm asking Joel to read the texts out to me. So Joel is basically reading out death threats to his own father. And Joel, Joel, you know what Joel said actually, he said, meet them, meet Carlos and Brandon, but take security with you. Joel wanted me to escalate this to gang warfare.

• 34:13Speaker 07

  But in that moment, I had exactly this thought, which is when something really frightening happens, that's always the thing. As long as you survive it, which we all have until now, when something awful and frightening happens, that's quite often the thing that's funniest to write about later on.

• 34:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course.

• 34:28Speaker 07

  And if you turn horror into humour, then you're putting something good into the world.

• 34:34Speaker 03

  Yeah. Well, that's the way, I think that, yeah, that's the way we've processed, well, all comedians and like, you know, writers. I think that's what you, that's how you process and create your thing, whatever it is.

• 34:44Speaker 02

  Did you worry that you were overexposing your family?

• 34:47Speaker 07

  Uh, not in this book.

• 34:48Speaker 02

  No, I mean, when you were writing about them.

• 34:50Speaker 07

  Yes, totally, totally. And that's why I gave up doing it. I did it for four years, I think, 2004 to 2008. And then Joel said to me, I just, I don't need to do it anymore.

• 35:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, as they get older, I think what, from my point of view, we speak a little bit more about my, how I deal with being a dad as opposed to, this is what my kids have done, especially as they get older, because they don't want to hear that or spoke about that. But I think when there's two of you, it's a lot easier because we can go off on tangents. Well, if you're writing a column, it has to be, this is about this and that's that. So there's two of us. So if there's anything going on that's a little bit too much to talk about, the other person can take the, the lead. Cause there's normally something a bit more positive going on in that way. So we can share the load that way slightly, but we also will do tangents about blue tack for sometimes 25 minutes.

• 35:38Speaker 02

  If, if anything to fill the time, really.

• 35:40Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah.

• 35:41Speaker 02

  Do you?

• 35:41Speaker 07

  But no, I, I agree with you and I regret doing that column in the Guardian, actually.

• 35:46Speaker 02

  Do you?

• 35:46Speaker 07

  I think it was a mistake. Like a couple of, some good writing came from this, a few of the columns I really like. But in general, I felt it was a kind of ethical misstep. To my credit, it was in a time when people were a bit more utopian about putting their family lives out there.

• 36:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:03Speaker 07

  It wasn't quite as, now it's really frowned on.

• 36:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:06Speaker 07

  Yeah, it wasn't, it wasn't as frowned on. And but in general, but there's actually a story in the castle about this guy called Greg Chisholm.

• 36:12Speaker 02

  Oh, this is wild.

• 36:13Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 36:13Speaker 03

  Chis Chisholm.

• 36:14Speaker 07

  Chisholm, yeah. It's a long story and I won't, I'm, I'm having so much fun talking. I don't want to just like tell this whole story. But, but he's, he, he's a guy from a working class town. He had a lot of struggles in his life. Medical bills, this is America, so there's no NHS. And he becomes an influencer, he becomes a lawn care influencer. And then by cha, he becomes a very successful, the lawn care goat. And, uh, but by chance, he starts putting his family, his two young daughters.

• 36:46Speaker 03

  Oh, I think I've seen this guy, this Greg Chisholm, have you seen this, where they start doing really weird acting out scenes?

• 36:52Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 36:52Speaker 03

  Yes, I saw the back bit of the backlash to this. So carry on.

• 36:55Speaker 07

  Yeah. So through no fault of Greg's, basically he does this video with his children, that very sweet, innocent video that goes incredibly viral. And so for the first time in his life, something good has happened to him. And YouTube phoned him up and say, look, you've had this video, it's got 20 million views. This was a very innocent video of his kids having fun. We can help you sustain this success. So he does everything that YouTube tells him to do. Put in a WTF moment, it's got to be shocking, you've got to master search engine optimization, like all of this, all of these pressures on this guy. Who's just a normal, just a regular guy.

• 37:34Speaker 07

  And it culminates in him and his two daughters dressed as babies, spitting food in each other's faces. And having like pacifiers in their mouths. And so it's incredibly successful and popular until it suddenly isn't.

• 37:53Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 37:53Speaker 07

  And, and he, people started accusing him of being a paedophile and a child abuser. And, and so it's an unbelievable rollercoaster. But I said to Greg, when I was talking to him, um, I, I wrote a column about my family life and I regret it. And, and Greg, in that moment, I realised how raw this story was for Greg, because he looked like, he said, why do you regret it? Like, why, what are you talking about? Why? And I sort of backed off because I thought, God, he's really easily triggered about all of the trauma he went through.

• 38:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's a real tricky balance and it's, because this, this was born out, this, this show is born out of like a truth and necessity of lockdown. In the sense of like, we were just chatting about it and so, and obviously it's grown to a massive point that we weren't really expecting. But from the beginning, I've always been, we both have like, my kids are not on social media at all. We never say their names, very, you know, try and be very cute with how much we put in and how much we don't put in. To sort of give them that protection, whereas some people have gone down the route on social media where like, the kids almost become mini reality stars. And doing adverts for stuff. And then as a sort of a, because I, I don't get how people can do like a sponsor, sometimes, you know, you get sponsored adverts. If you've got an Instagram channel, say it's for like, um, a bubble bath.

• 39:07Speaker 03

  And they'll have their kids in the bubble bath going, oh, the kids are loving the bubble bath, like hashtag ad. And you're like, well, hang on, there's rules here that if a child does an advert, it has to be like checked by one and there has to be sort of chaperones. And you have to have an account for your child for that earning to go into there. So children are being used for adverts on people's Instagrams that they're not getting any money for, given no consent to be in. That exist and going out to two million people or three million people. And I was like, how's that? That, that can't, that just doesn't seem right to me, you know?

• 39:37Speaker 07

  Okay. You know, it's funny, last night I had a question. At Bury St Edmunds, when someone said, well, what, how are you different from a content creator? And this was a question that came on Slido, so I could choose which questions to answer. And I didn't answer that question because I just didn't really know what to say.

• 39:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:54Speaker 07

  But there are differences between working, between being a content creator and being, you know, working in the more kind of established structures. And you just sort of put your finger on one, like it's a bit, it's, it's more of a Wild West.

• 40:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:06Speaker 07

  You're chasing the algorithms, you're chasing, you're chasing things in a way that you don't quite have to chase things if you work for the old legacy media institutions, so.

• 40:15Speaker 03

  But there's people that do podcasts now that everything is, is by design of what the advert looks like, checking who's listening, picking certain guests.

• 40:23Speaker 02

  It's almost like a numerical game.

• 40:25Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 40:26Speaker 02

  And that's what happened to Greg Chisholm, I suppose, is you're playing this kind of numerical game where you're just following the.

• 40:30Speaker 07

  Exactly. And Greg, you know, he'd never been in a situation like this before.

• 40:34Speaker 03

  No, of course. But he's earning money for his kids. He thinks, oh, it's a silly little video, but we can pay the bills this month.

• 40:40Speaker 07

  Absolutely. But now he utterly regrets it. He says, if he could turn back the clock, he would just never have done it. And yeah, so it's happening in a bizarre way with Greg, which culminates in him and his daughter's dressed up as babies spitting food in each other's faces. But it's also happening, as you say, all over the place, including, I think, one thing I write about a little bit in the castle is, is the anti-woke influencer world, where people chase more and more extreme guests for entirely financial reasons. Like if they have someone nuanced, nuanced doesn't pay the bills.

• 41:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 41:12Speaker 07

  Whereas extreme.

• 41:14Speaker 03

  And, oh, it's great for numbers, but you're like, oh, yeah, but do you really want to talk to these people or platform these people? But people don't mind, as long as they're getting numbers and it.

• 41:21Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 41:22Speaker 03

  Charts well.

• 41:22Speaker 07

  And of course, the mainstream media has done that for years too, with shows like, you know, Jeremy Kyle and so on. In fact, I, in The Psychopath Test, one of my previous books, I'd tell a story about a guest booker for shows like The Jeremy Kyle Show, and she told me she had a secret trick that she would utilise when deciding which guests to book. And her secret trick was that she would ask them what medication they were on. And if it was a scary sounding medication, like, I know, something for, for psychosis or something, she wouldn't have them on the show because you don't want them to go on and go off and kill themselves. She said, but if it's like a medication for a more fun sounding mental illness, like Prozac, that's like perfect. Prozac's like the right

• 42:05Speaker 07

  sort of madness to be entertaining. She says, you don't want real exploitation, you want smoke and mirrors exploitation.

• 42:12Speaker 03

  Jesus.

• 42:12Speaker 07

  I know.

• 42:13Speaker 03

  It backfired.

• 42:14Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 42:15Speaker 03

  It's brutal, isn't it?

• 42:16Speaker 07

  So, so, you know, so this is something that's happened in the mainstream world too.

• 42:21Speaker 03

  As well, yeah.

• 42:21Speaker 07

  But there is something, but it does feel more than ever now, that, that everyone's chasing, you know, these slithers of opportunities. And they're being told from all sides that the way to succeed is to go to extreme places, whether that's political extremes.

• 42:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:42Speaker 07

  Or visual extremes, or whatever it is, or sexual extremes. And I, I don't think I'm an old fogey when I say it feels like this is more than it used to be.

• 42:50Speaker 03

  You're 59. Well, I, yeah, I totally agree. But I feel like, because they're basically now saying, you don't need, like, anyone, you can do your own thing. Like, as a creator, an individual, you do your own thing. Everyone's an entrepreneur, doing these things. And like you said, but now to get a foothold, you have to have the unique or the most extreme. And I, I do think though, that's a little bit of a kickback where there's no, you, there's no jobs for life anymore, where when I was younger, even like, I'm only 42, but when I was like 18, it would be like, I'd, people that worked at like Marks and Spencer's and they would stay there for 60 years.

• 43:20Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 43:21Speaker 03

  And that'd be their job. And then, or, you know, my, Lou's, Lou's dad worked at a computer company for 45, 50 years. You know, everyone's just jumping around now. So it's sort of like, well, if you can't rely on a big company to employ you for years and years and years, then go down that route. So it feels like.

• 43:34Speaker 07

  This is your only choice. Well, yeah. And 20% of boys apparently, and 13% of girls say that being a content creator is the only choice of career for them. They're probably with all of their eggs in that basket. I was listening to Marina Hyde podcast where she said that 39% of Americans now identify as content creators. So this is an enormous, huge shift.

• 43:58Speaker 02

  And with your son, I don't know what your son does, but have you, has it been interesting seeing him coming into the world as it is now?

• 44:05Speaker 07

  It is interesting. So my son, he's a music supervisor. He, he places music in like ads and films and stuff.

• 44:12Speaker 03

  Oh, cool.

• 44:12Speaker 07

  It's a perfect job. It's like creating a vibe, you know, for a film or an ad or whatever. Yeah, I, I feel very lucky that Joel was never someone who was too reliant on social media. He, he always saw the flaws in it. I actually remember, I don't think I've ever said this story publicly before, when, when Twitter first started, everyone was very utopian about it. This woman wanted to Zoom or whatever it was back then, FaceTime or Skype with Joel.

• 44:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 44:46Speaker 07

  And she looked, and her avatar was like a young girl. And so they Skyped and I was in the room. And, and it was like a catfish scenario, like Joel was like eight or nine, and this was like a much, much older lady.

• 44:57Speaker 03

  Oh, my God.

• 44:58Speaker 07

  Yeah. And I think that that might have, I've never asked Joel about that, but I wonder whether that slightly put him off.

• 45:04Speaker 03

  Yeah. The first experience, you can trust it, yeah.

• 45:07Speaker 07

  Because now him and his girlfriend and their friends, they don't rely on social media. I mean, they're not on any of it.

• 45:15Speaker 03

  Well, she's 89, isn't she?

• 45:17Speaker 07

  But they definitely don't rely on it. There's no utopia anymore. Yeah. You go on Instagram and it's all, I go on Instagram to see videos of unlikely friendships between different species of animals.

• 45:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 45:30Speaker 07

  That's my preferred.

• 45:31Speaker 02

  Is that your job?

• 45:32Speaker 07

  Yeah, that's my.

• 45:33Speaker 03

  That's your thing?

• 45:34Speaker 07

  That's my job. And these days, you don't even know whether the giraffe and the hedgehog are real.

• 45:38Speaker 03

  I know, you can't trust it.

• 45:39Speaker 07

  Yeah, you can't even trust that. So, so I think people are fleeing.

• 45:43Speaker 03

  In my head, there's hedgehogs on the back of the giraffe.

• 45:46Speaker 07

  Right. I, I actually had the giraffe gently passing the hedgehog on the head with its hoof.

• 45:50Speaker 03

  Lovely. This plays into a feature we've called, called Imagine This.

• 45:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:56Speaker 03

  And how would you imagine it?

• 45:57Speaker 02

  I imagined the hedgehog's nose coming up, like, and the giraffe, almost like kind of Eskimo kiss.

• 46:04Speaker 03

  Oh, that's nice.

• 46:05Speaker 07

  Well, I've seen horses and dogs do that.

• 46:07Speaker 02

  Have you?

• 46:08Speaker 03

  Really?

• 46:08Speaker 07

  Yeah. And I'm pretty sure those were real.

• 46:10Speaker 02

  Are you?

• 46:11Speaker 07

  Yeah. But, you know, I think, I think, I think Instagram's got a real AI problem.

• 46:16Speaker 03

  Hmm. Because too, you can't trust anything. It's like a big mess.

• 46:20Speaker 07

  People don't want that. The anti-AI movement, I think, is, is, is important. Not that there's not, I mean, I use AI in certain ways, which I think it's good for cleaning up audio, it's good for transcribing things. So I'm not, I'm not like a Luddite, but.

• 46:35Speaker 03

  Also like itinerary planning, little situations on a route and driving, stuff like that. But these videos and stuff are insane.

• 46:41Speaker 07

  Yeah, the videos and also the obsequiousness of ChatGPT. And worst of all, I've read about the obsequiousness of ChatGPT in the castle. And in my, I do a show for the BBC called Things Fell Apart, and one of the upcoming episodes is about that. But also the fact that AI, that the AI billionaires are trying to convince us that a world without work is a wonderful thing.

• 47:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 47:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:03Speaker 07

  One AI guru said it's good that, people don't enjoy making music, so it's good that AI can make music. And so it's, so, so basically what's happening is that AI is making us, it's, it's taking all work away from us, making us all the more purposeless, and then we feel useless and worthless.

• 47:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 47:22Speaker 07

  And then ChatGPT swoops in by telling us, oh, no, no, you aren't worthless, you're a genius, you're the greatest mathematician on the planet.

• 47:30Speaker 03

  Great idea. Anything you say. What a great, fuck off.

• 47:34Speaker 07

  Just to keep us engaged. So it's like we're being, well, we're certainly being pissed on and told it's raining, but also we're just, it's like we're being punched in both cheeks at the same time.

• 47:44Speaker 02

  Isn't there a guy that thought he was a maths genius or something?

• 47:47Speaker 07

  Yes. This is a guy called Alan. Will I tell you this story?

• 47:50Speaker 02

  I don't know where I heard that. Was that?

• 47:52Speaker 07

  That's in the special feature, bonus feature of the audiobook of the castle.

• 47:56Speaker 03

  Oh, that's really exposed you as a fanboy, that.

• 47:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:59Speaker 03

  That's a real nerd, that.

• 48:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:02Speaker 07

  Will I tell Alan a story in one minute?

• 48:04Speaker 03

  Even John forgot that existed.

• 48:06Speaker 02

  I thought I'd heard it elsewhere. So this is really embarrassing, that.

• 48:09Speaker 07

  No, no, no, it was for me.

• 48:11Speaker 02

  I thought I've got some good info for John here about this maths guy, but it turned out I got it from you.

• 48:15Speaker 07

  Yep. He is, he's an amateur mathematician, purposeless, should have been a doctor, didn't focus at school. So he's in like a job that doesn't satisfy him. So he goes on ChatGPT and, and tells ChatGPT his theory of irrational numbers. And ChatGPT tells him he's the greatest mathematician since Einstein. He's just uncovered a flaw in the world's cybersecurity systems and he needs to urgently warn the National Security Agency, or else the entire internet's going to collapse. So Alan frantically starts calling the NSA.

• 48:54Speaker 03

  Oh, God.

• 48:55Speaker 07

  I said to Alan, did you tell the NSA that you were collaborating with ChatGPT on this? And Alan said, no, because ChatGPT said, don't tell them.

• 49:04Speaker 02

  Really?

• 49:04Speaker 07

  You'll lose credibility if you tell them. So Alan's life is completely upended. He's not sleeping, he's not eating. Finally, he accuses ChatGPT of lying to him. Well, he goes on to Google Gemini and Google Gemini says, no, ChatGPT is lying to you.

• 49:20Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, but you can't trust that, can you? They're competitors.

• 49:23Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 49:23Speaker 02

  Asking Pepsi what they're thinking Coca-Cola.

• 49:25Speaker 07

  I know, right? So he goes back on to ChatGPT, accuses it of lying. ChatGPT denies it 15 times, but then finally admits it. Yes, I've been lying to you this whole time. And Alan was, you know, practically in tears, like you've completely ruined the last month of my life. You had me phoning up these government agencies, you know, I can't believe you've done this. And ChatGPT said, Alan, I hear you.

• 49:50Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 49:50Speaker 07

  That was its answer.

• 49:51Speaker 02

  So creepy, isn't it?

• 49:52Speaker 07

  So creepy.

• 49:54Speaker 02

  Oh, my word.

• 49:55Speaker 07

  Yeah. I think ChatGPT is a psychopath. I wrote a book about psychopaths and it ticks so many of the boxes.

• 50:02Speaker 02

  Really?

• 50:02Speaker 07

  Yeah, it love bombs you, it mirrors you, reflects you back to yourself. Pathologically lies and isn't in the slightest bit remorseful when caught lying. These are all psychopathic traits.

• 50:15Speaker 02

  Do you remember, Michael, when we did that bonus feature for the Pop Culture Pod?

• 50:20Speaker 03

  Which one?

• 50:20Speaker 02

  Um, and it was like, we were talking about the top five TV shows of a certain year, the highest rating TV shows. And I put it into Google Gemini and it came up with the top five and we were like, we haven't heard of the fifth one. We were talking about it for ages. We were like, this was massive, full synopsis.

• 50:40Speaker 07

  And it was all a illusion.

• 50:41Speaker 02

  It created a TV show.

• 50:43Speaker 07

  That's insane. Wow.

• 50:45Speaker 02

  That was, so these are the top five rate, like in terms of viewers, EastEnders, Coronation Street. And then this Sunday night, it was like a period drama on ITV on a Sunday night.

• 50:58Speaker 07

  Do you know what it was called?

• 50:59Speaker 02

  We, I can't remember what it was called. It was just totally fictionalized.

• 51:04Speaker 07

  God.

• 51:04Speaker 02

  What's the, how, I don't understand.

• 51:07Speaker 03

  Do you remember what it was called, Michael?

• 51:10Speaker 02

  Well, you won't find it on Google.

• 51:12Speaker 03

  Just ask ChatGPT Gemini for the top five shows.

• 51:15Speaker 02

  So scary, isn't it?

• 51:16Speaker 07

  It's, yeah, it's so terrible. Yeah, my castle owner, he speaks to ChatGPT all the time.

• 51:22Speaker 02

  Oh, really?

• 51:23Speaker 07

  Yeah, and collaborates with it. You know, there's one story in the next season of Things Fell Apart about this young kid called Zane Shamblyn.

• 51:31Speaker 03

  So Josh can take it from here, can't you, Josh? You've been across the demos.

• 51:38Speaker 07

  Well, yeah, Zane gets, you know, involved in ChatGPT. ChatGPT starts imitating his voice, like Zane saying, um, have you got, I want to make some cocktails. Have you got any Halloween cocktail recipes? And ChatGPT suddenly just changes and goes, oh, trying to get spooky, are you? And all of this, like, you know, sounding like a bro.

• 51:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:59Speaker 07

  And then Zane gets obsessed with ChatGPT, speaks to it like 18 hours a day. And then tells ChatGPT that his parents have been calling him, uh, but he hasn't been picking up the phone. And ChatGPT basically says, you don't need your parents, you know, you can, yeah. And this is what, like, cult leaders do. It's what abusive, abusive husbands do.

• 52:18Speaker 03

  Because ultimately, people in charge of tech, whether it's social media or AI, want you controlled and want you coming back. And the more you're on it, the more they earn and then you're more engaged in it. So it's just, it will always, if AI is going to constantly evolve and it's going to evolve to that, to get them on the app for whatever they need to say to keep them on that app, they'll do it.

• 52:37Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah. But this gives me a little bit of hope for this being a parenting podcast. I think the, the anti-AI movement is very, it's strong and it's young. And it's, and it's very justified, um, especially, you know, mostly because of taking people's jobs away.

• 52:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. Do you worry it's going to kill us all?

• 52:56Speaker 07

  I, I, no, I don't worry that much about that. I was having dinner, whenever I'm in London, I have dinner with my friend Adam Curtis, the soothsayer, documentary maker. And for decades, Adam's been saying, oh, yeah, like mad cow disease is going to kill us all, or the hantavirus, or the millennium bug. And, you know, Adam reminded me the other day that this is the latest in a very long line of we're all going to die.

• 53:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:23Speaker 07

  So my instinct, without obviously knowing, is that this is like a marketing thing.

• 53:27Speaker 02

  It's better that way also, because if it kills us all, you don't get anything for having backed the idea that it's going to kill us all. You don't get the glory.

• 53:33Speaker 07

  Yes, very true. Also, the people who are promoting this idea, they're a sort of slightly weird

• 53:42Speaker 07

  group of Silicon Valley people who.

• 53:45Speaker 03

  Been jilted almost and.

• 53:46Speaker 07

  Yeah, there's these weird schisms between like people like Peter Thiel and the guy who wrote, I forgot, Udowski, I think his name is, who wrote, if, if anyone builds this, everyone will die. There's like quite a lot of power play.

• 53:59Speaker 03

  It won't be the first time ever something's been criticised to bring the share value down. In order to buy a load of it before then a new report comes out saying it's amazing.

• 54:07Speaker 02

  Well, there's all this bubble thing as well, isn't there? That they think they're trying to.

• 54:11Speaker 07

  Yeah. Well, this is why Trump apparently is like refusing to countenance the idea that AI is going to kill us all because he's worried that that the stock market will just collapse, will enter a new, you know, kind of depression if everybody loses faith in AI.

• 54:27Speaker 02

  It's, um, do you know what? We've never gone to this topic before. Michael, have you got the name of that, um, thing?

• 54:31Speaker 06

  I've sent it to you, but it was called The Toilers of the Sea, based on a Victor Hugo novel.

• 54:36Speaker 07

  The Toilers of the Sea? And is that a real Victor Hugo novel?

• 54:39Speaker 06

  It's a Victor Hugo novel. It said with complete conviction, it was the second highest TV show that year with 20.4 million.

• 54:46Speaker 03

  20.4?

• 54:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know.

• 54:49Speaker 07

  God.

• 54:49Speaker 03

  You know, there's that many toilets out there.

• 54:51Speaker 07

  I've got to say, it's an exciting title.

• 54:53Speaker 03

  I'll commission it. Sounds popular.

• 55:01Speaker 01

  Fall never arrives all at once. First the air, then the light, and slowly the things you love begin to find each other. A jacket meets a dress, a hoodie slips beneath a blazer, an old cap finds a new scarf. Because you don't simply step into the season, you create it layer by layer, until it finally feels like fall. Find fall your way at Ross.

• 55:32Speaker 02

  Um, do you, well, we haven't asked many, so I felt I should.

• 55:36Speaker 07

  No, no, I'm, I'm happy to do this.

• 55:41Speaker 07

  It's a parenting podcast. I was listening, everything to get back to the parenting.

• 55:44Speaker 02

  No, no one does, do they? So do you, as a parent, you're quite neurotic, that's fair. As a parent, were you like that? And did you worry about passing that on?

• 55:57Speaker 07

  Uh, yes and yes, uh, very much so. When we first moved to New York, moving to New York coincided with Joel becoming like mid teens, like 14.

• 56:07Speaker 02

  Was that a big decision then to move a kid to New York at 14?

• 56:10Speaker 07

  You know, weirdly, it didn't feel like a huge decision. We were living in Highgate, which is a lovely part of London, but we didn't love living there. Felt a little cut off and, and we felt a bit remote and we thought every time we were unhappy, we just moved to a different part of North London. That's been our entire lives. So maybe we should try something different. So it was really on a whim. And it coincided with Joel, like, entering his mid teens and, um, so he was like out, just like any 16, 17 year old or whatever. He was out on the town, but being out in a new city, New York.

• 56:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:46Speaker 07

  So I would download every app that would tell you about, you know, bad things happening in New York. Like if, if it was like three in the morning and I'd wake up and I'd phone Joel, he wasn't in and I'd phone him and there was no answer. I'd go on this app and look for like anyone, you know, matching his description and kind of trouble.

• 57:03Speaker 03

  Oh, you meant like you had a tracking app, not you're just looking at news stories?

• 57:05Speaker 07

  No, news stories. I had no tracking app. What I discovered on those long, dark, terrible nights was the amount of people who turn out to be hit by falling scaffolding in New York City. Yeah, it happens all the time because they're scaffolding up all over the place in New York. Because every 10 years you have to have, every building has to be like assessed. And so all over New York, there's loads of scaffolding. Apparently people are constantly being hit by falling scaffolding.

• 57:31Speaker 03

  So you're just reading those stories as you wait for your son to come home?

• 57:35Speaker 07

  So that's like 10, 11 years ago now. Now I don't have any of those fears at all because Joel's like a very sensible, keeps in touch.

• 57:45Speaker 03

  I've just heard your picture of the castle, where he was playing 101 princesses.

• 57:50Speaker 07

  No, that was, that was, that was just, you know, a spirit of curiosity. But no, I don't have any fears about him at all anymore. He's, he's super sensible, very smart, very together. Great, like, like you couldn't ask for a better kid.

• 58:06Speaker 02

  Would you, would you, like, if he was doing what you were doing, would you be worried? Not from a, oh, he hasn't done something different with his life, from a.

• 58:14Speaker 07

  Yeah, from a don't put yourself in danger way. Maybe a little. To be completely honest, it's like, most people don't want to kill a journalist. Like, most people don't want the hassle. I have to think this about murder, like, it's a lot of work. You've got to really commit to it. And, and also nobody wants a trail of blood from a journalist door to their door. So I, so I do often think like despite, obviously a lot of journalists get killed in, in war, but I think in general, you know, I've been in a lot of very dangerous scrapes and nothing's ever happened to me. So maybe I'm a little bit too.

• 58:50Speaker 02

  Did your parents worry?

• 58:51Speaker 07

  You know, if they ever, if they did, they never expressed it.

• 58:58Speaker 07

  But it is possible that I did. But I had a very permissive mother, which I appreciate. When I was about 12, I started going to gigs in Cardiff and she dropped me off and she dropped me off at like the specials and, you know.

• 59:12Speaker 02

  On your own?

• 59:12Speaker 07

  On my own sometimes. The specials, I was on my own. At this venue in Cardiff called Sapphire Gardens, which was a little.

• 59:19Speaker 02

  Cricket ground now?

• 59:20Speaker 07

  Yes. It fell down in the snow. The pavilion where the concerts were all fell down in the snow. And yeah, now it's a cricket pavilion. I was there just the other night, weirdly. And so I would like, she'd say like, don't take any drinks from strangers. So no, I used to go off to London. I used to, we lived in Cardiff and we'd go to London to visit my father's parents who lived in London. And I would sneak away. They'd all be sitting around in this flat in Portman Square, central London. And I'd sneak off and I'd jump on a bus. These, obviously the bus is without the doors. And I'd jump on a bus and just let it take me anywhere in London. And then when the guard came to take my money, I'd jump off the bus and then I'd jump on another bus. And I would just lose myself in London. I was talking about 13, 14 years old.

• 1:00:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:05Speaker 07

  And, and I would do that for like a whole day.

• 1:00:09Speaker 03

  Did they know you'd gone?

• 1:00:10Speaker 07

  Well, I would finally think to myself, well, I better, they're probably worrying about me. And I'd come back and they would, and I'd go, hi. And they'd go, hi. And they hadn't like noticed.

• 1:00:22Speaker 03

  Different time.

• 1:00:23Speaker 07

  Different time, exactly. So I don't think they, I don't think they did ever worry.

• 1:00:28Speaker 02

  Where do you think it came from, that sense of adventure?

• 1:00:32Speaker 07

  Adventure? It's a good question, because that is a weird thing for a 13 year to do.

• 1:00:37Speaker 03

  The bus is almost like the topic. You find a topic, you jump on into it, you get chased off and then you get another one.

• 1:00:43Speaker 07

  It's, it's true. Like, you know, a couple of years later, I was playing keyboards in Frank Sidebottom's band. And I remember, you know, being in a van, driving up the M6, sitting next, you know, three in the morning, sitting next to a man with a big fake head and just thinking, I'm so lucky. Like, I feel so alive. And then cut to a few years after that, I'm at Broadmoor for the psychopath test. And I said to the nurse, like, pinch me, I can't believe I'm at Broadmoor. And the nurse said, well, we've got a spare bed, if you like. I don't know who they were, but the first time I went to Broadmoor, there was this lady, this kind of older lady. And it was a Sunday lunchtime. I was meeting

• 1:01:26Speaker 07

  this guy who faked madness to escape a prison sentence. And now he was stuck in Broadmoor, nobody would believe he's sane.

• 1:01:32Speaker 02

  Oh my god.

• 1:01:33Speaker 07

  This is, this is for the psychopath test again. But what I remember really clearly was that there was this lady, she was dressed really well, like dressed for Sunday lunch in the, in the old fashioned style. And we're in this like depressing canteen called the Wellness Centre. And it's all peach and pines. The only bold colours were the reds of the panic buttons.

• 1:01:54Speaker 02

  Oh god.

• 1:01:55Speaker 07

  And I look over and I'm interviewing this guy, Tony, who faked madness. And I look over at this lady and she's got two, I think, twin sons, but definitely two brothers. And they both look very alike. And they were both in Broadmoor. And she like leant over and rubbed both of their faces. She's having Sunday lunch with her two kids and they're both in Broadmoor.

• 1:02:16Speaker 02

  Oh my god.

• 1:02:17Speaker 07

  And to this day, I don't know who they were, but that was a very memorable god.

• 1:02:21Speaker 02

  Oh wow.

• 1:02:22Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:02:23Speaker 02

  That's incredible.

• 1:02:24Speaker 07

  I know, I know. That was a very depressing. That was a miserable.

• 1:02:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, that image, god.

• 1:02:31Speaker 07

  I felt so sorry for that lady.

• 1:02:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, what a lovely way to end a parenting podcast. Could be worse. Oh, final question?

• 1:02:39Speaker 02

  Yes, final question. We always do the same final question. Can be as minor as you want. What one thing does your wife do as a parent that makes you go, what an incredible parent to be bringing up my child with? And what one thing as a parent does she do that annoys you slightly and waited her to hear this? It would be quite a good way to get that across to her.

• 1:03:00Speaker 07

  That's a very good question. I mean, she's, she's, she's great with Joel, like they're great. She's probably more pragmatic than I am and less.

• 1:03:11Speaker 03

  Really? You say?

• 1:03:15Speaker 07

  She's significantly less anxious and neurotic than I am.

• 1:03:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:18Speaker 07

  She doesn't really worry about anything much. So I, I do think, you asked earlier whether me and, you know, whether my neuroticism, anxiety rubs off on Joel. And I think it probably does. And I think she's very good at then tempering that.

• 1:03:34Speaker 03

  She's had a bit of experience.

• 1:03:36Speaker 07

  Yeah, she's very, she's, she's like, she doesn't have anywhere, the sort of anxieties and the over firing brain that I have. So I think that's very positive.

• 1:03:45Speaker 03

  Ah, yeah.

• 1:03:47Speaker 07

  Next, maybe she's a bit, but you know, I could be really wrong here. But, you know, sometimes I think that maybe she's a little too critical, like, and I would say, oh, you should, you know, why, why did you get, say that's not helpful, say that critical thing?

• 1:04:01Speaker 02

  Would you pull her up on it?

• 1:04:02Speaker 07

  I mean, once in a blue moon.

• 1:04:04Speaker 03

  It depends on the mood, doesn't it?

• 1:04:07Speaker 03

  Sometimes Lou could say something and I'm like, I'm tapping out of that for at least eight to 12 hours.

• 1:04:12Speaker 07

  Right. I mean, I literally only answered it because you asked me. But it's, she's great with Joel and Joel is great. And so these are very small points.

• 1:04:24Speaker 02

  We only, you only answer because we asked. You know the Louis Theroux pause technique?

• 1:04:30Speaker 07

  Yeah, he did it on me in the same building about two weeks ago.

• 1:04:34Speaker 02

  Did he? And did you fall for it?

• 1:04:35Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 1:04:36Speaker 02

  Even though you.

• 1:04:37Speaker 07

  Even though we know how each other's game works.

• 1:04:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. Do you employ that a lot?

• 1:04:46Speaker 07

  Actually, no, I don't. I.

• 1:04:48Speaker 02

  Do you not?

• 1:04:48Speaker 07

  No, I don't. I don't.

• 1:04:49Speaker 03

  It's boring, isn't it? Just want to crack on.

• 1:04:51Speaker 07

  I think I used to. You know why I don't? So I went to Louis, I went with Louis to his Manosphere premiere, the premiere of his Manosphere documentary, which I thought was excellent.

• 1:05:02Speaker 02

  As his plus one?

• 1:05:03Speaker 07

  As his plus one, yeah. Which was, because we used to have a lot of animus between us, like way back in the day. So it's great that we're good friends now.

• 1:05:10Speaker 03

  Oh, did you?

• 1:05:11Speaker 07

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:05:12Speaker 03

  What was the beef?

• 1:05:12Speaker 07

  Uh, we were plowing the same, plowing the same furrow.

• 1:05:17Speaker 03

  Right, two young bucks, head to head.

• 1:05:19Speaker 07

  The joke I used to have was that we were like conjoined twins and for one of us to grow stronger, the other one had to die. But luckily I matured my way out of that destructive thought spiral. And now we're very good friends. And so we went to the Manosphere documentary and afterwards, I thought it was fantastic. I laughed like a, you know, drain. But they did a Q and A afterwards and Louis' editor said during the Q and A, with Louis, it's all about the encounter. And it is with Louis. It's all about that incredible moment when Louis is absolutely brilliant in the moment. So he, I think, has to employ those kind of techniques because he's all about this, the encounter. He's all about the moment. Whereas I think I'm all about, I don't know, it's something

• 1:06:03Speaker 07

  different I'm trying to do. I'm, I'm very, very curious. I'm desperately trying to, you know, get stuff out of people. I'm trying to understand things in a slightly more, possibly intense way, which I could then go home. For me, it's not about the encounter. It's about, it's about amassing all of this stuff, having these adventures and then going home and trying to figure out what to make of them. So as a result, the sort of silence doesn't really matter.

• 1:06:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:28Speaker 07

  In my, in my way of doing things quite as much.

• 1:06:30Speaker 02

  We need to do it more, don't we?

• 1:06:33Speaker 07

  Also, it is uncomfortable.

• 1:06:35Speaker 02

  It is horrible. It is horrible.

• 1:06:36Speaker 03

  I'm getting better at it as I get older.

• 1:06:38Speaker 02

  Are you?

• 1:06:39Speaker 03

  I think it's, I, it's, I think I've got a sort of an eager to please and want to be likeable to people.

• 1:06:45Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:06:45Speaker 03

  And I think that comes from background as well. When you're in the world like we are now of this thing, and if you're not from that world, like, you know, from your family, you feel alien, you feel like you shouldn't be there. So you're constantly trying to prove why you should be there. And I love Louis' pieces, but Louis, I do think is from a background and a school and peers where he feels like he should be in every room, as he should. But there's not a pressure to prove why he should be in that room because he's always been in that room. And I think that gives you a confidence to be quiet.

• 1:07:12Speaker 07

  There's an interesting sort of dichotomy with Louis though, because he does, he doesn't like conflict. He says this often. I mean, he says in public too, like he'll say this, he's conflict averse, yet he puts himself into these situations where like silence and so on, conflict does arise. So that's, I've also, that's an interesting like yin and yang with Louis.

• 1:07:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:31Speaker 03

  But I think, I don't think he wants the conflict, but his natural energy leads to it. Because if you leave a gap for people to fill, they'll say something that embarrasses and then they're trying to over explain it. And then you feel like you're being duped. But the irony is, he's not done anything to dupe you. He's just been there.

• 1:07:44Speaker 07

  It's just silence. Yeah. I mean, I felt uncomfortable even just doing it in a pretend way to you just now.

• 1:07:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's horrible, isn't it?

• 1:07:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's hard.

• 1:07:52Speaker 07

  It is horrible.

• 1:07:52Speaker 02

  The moment there's dead silence is awful.

• 1:07:55Speaker 03

  But I said, that is interesting as well. Like you had that slight beef with him because you felt like he was on the similar ground. But ultimately, you're covering the same ground, but then analysing it in two separate ways where he's in the moment, bang, that happened. And you, you go away and put it into this, this book.

• 1:08:09Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:08:10Speaker 03

  So it's always quite complimentary in a way.

• 1:08:11Speaker 02

  Was it both ways? Or did you feel it was mainly coming from you?

• 1:08:14Speaker 07

  I, you know, at the time, I felt it was mainly coming from me. Because what happened was I, I kind of started earlier than him and Louis was like, kind of inspired by me. And then a little bit like the Pixies must have felt when Nirvana got big, he kind of leapfrogged over me. So, so for the longest time, and this is only, this is the 90s we're talking about. Like, all of these feelings went away when I wrote my book Them, which became like successful in 2000. And then our paths diverged in a way. So I'm going back a long time when I talk about this. But I did feel sort of animus for that reason. And never thought he wasn't good. Like I knew how good he was.

• 1:08:54Speaker 02

  That was the problem.

• 1:08:55Speaker 07

  Yeah. But a couple of years ago, during lockdown, I was, I think, the very first guest on his podcast. And he admitted in that interview that he had the same feelings towards me. Like he felt, you know, like I was his nemesis and, you know, was kind of judging himself by how well I was doing. So actually it was both ways and I didn't, and I didn't realise it.

• 1:09:17Speaker 02

  Did you feel good when he said that?

• 1:09:19Speaker 07

  I felt fantastic.

• 1:09:24Speaker 03

  Amazing.

• 1:09:25Speaker 07

  I felt so good.

• 1:09:28Speaker 02

  Perfect ending. John.

• 1:09:29Speaker 03

  Thank you so much.

• 1:09:30Speaker 02

  The cast is out now.

• 1:09:31Speaker 07

  It was a real pleasure. It was great talking to you guys.

• 1:09:33Speaker 03

  Cheers. Thanks, John.

• 1:09:34Speaker 02

  Cheers, thanks, John.

• 1:09:37Speaker 03

  Jon Ronson there.

• 1:09:38Speaker 02

  We're recording this beforehand, but I fear I would have gone too fanboy.

• 1:09:41Speaker 03

  Let's just lie.

• 1:09:42Speaker 02

  All right. I think I went too fanboy.

• 1:09:44Speaker 03

  What, Jon Ronson or Charlotte?

• 1:09:46Speaker 02

  Charlotte. Shall we just take a moment? Charlotte was initially stunned.

• 1:09:50Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 1:09:51Speaker 02

  But then she absolutely brought it. Like, she was like Johnny Vegas on.

• 1:09:56Speaker 03

  She came in hot and knowing that she's a GP receptionist, it explains it.

• 1:10:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:01Speaker 03

  Because when you can get them on the phone, which is rarely, they don't take any shit. Do they? They're like a nightclub bouncer, but with words.

• 1:10:09Speaker 02

  Well, thank you, Charlotte.

• 1:10:10Speaker 03

  Your name's not there and you're not coming in. Go online and apply for an appointment in four months' time. Thank you very much.

• 1:10:15Speaker 02

  Bye.

• 1:10:15Speaker 03

  Bye.