Pod Insights True Crime All The Time The Night Stalker About this episode For 17 years, an unknown suspect called the Night Stalker carried out a series of burglaries and sexual attacks against the elderly in South London, Kent, and Surrey, England. In 2009, a massive surveillance operation resulted in an arrest and identification. The Night Stalker was branded one of the most prolific and depraved sex attackers in British history.
Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Britain's Night Stalker. Eventually, Delroy Grant was identified and charged with the crimes of the Night Stalker. The authorities believe that his victims range from 200 to 600 as he operated for many years, unidentified.
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Transcript 10,244 words · 4 speakers
0:33 Speaker 00 Hello everyone and welcome to episode 454 of the True Crime All the Time Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you? I'm doing good. How about you? I'm doing great. I'm having an excellent week. We did want to make one announcement. We talked about it on our Patreon episode this weekend. You know, we've been with Wondery for a very long time. Yeah, we were. Six, seven years. I don't know how long it's been. Right. But they gave us notice last week that, you know, we need to find a new partner. So we have done that. We had to scramble pretty quickly. But the reason why we're letting everybody know is that, you know, if you do listen to us on
1:17 Speaker 00 Wondery Plus or the Wondery app, we won't be on there anymore. But everything else will be the same. You can find us in all the regular places. Absolutely. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Elsa Queen Psycho. Oh, hey Elsa. Glenda Allen Pratt. Well, thank you Pratt. Cindy Blankenship. What's going on Cindy? Effie Anastasia Dis. That's hard for you to say. It is. I've never seen it like that. Well, hey Effie. Rhonda Harton. What's going on Harton? Mark Taylor. Hey Mark. Tara Brown. Well, thank you Tara. Stephanie Magura. Oh, Magura. And last but not least, Steph Lee. Just sounds so simple, doesn't it? It does. And then we go back into the vault.
2:02 Speaker 00 This week, we selected Andrea L. Williams. Well, thanks, Al Williams. Yeah, we appreciate the new support and the continued support very much. So Gibbs, we have a brand new episode out on True Crime All the Time Unsolved, where we're talking about the death of Amanda Antoni. And she was found at the bottom of her stairs by her husband. So it's got a real staircase vibe to it. It does. It's very mysterious. Now, her husband, Lee, was suspected, or maybe still is suspected, but we get into all of that. Good case. Yeah, it is. Check it out. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All the Time? I am ready. We're talking about the Night Stalker.
2:46 Speaker 00 And no, not Richard Ramirez, right? We've already done our episodes on him. We're actually headed to England. For 17 years, an unknown suspect called the Night Stalker carried out a series of burglaries and sexual attacks against the elderly in South London, Kent, and Surrey, England. In 2009, a massive surveillance operation resulted in an arrest and identification. The Night Stalker was branded one of the most prolific and depraved sexual attackers in British history. I love it when you go to Britain. No, I do too, but when you say British history. It's pretty serious.
3:28 Speaker 00 Well, they have a much longer history than we do, so. That's true. Yeah, this guy is, uh, he's one of the worst. And we're doing something that we did on our Patreon episode last weekend, which is we're not giving away the name of the perpetrator, something we're going to be doing more and more of on TCAT. We've had a lot of listeners ask for that, so we're trying it out. Yeah, we're giving it a shot. And we got a lot of positive feedback on our Patreon episode. The Night Stalker had a specific MO that was easily identified by authorities. The suspect typically targeted older, detached, and semi-detached homes and suburbs.
4:10 Speaker 00 Over time, the suspect became more careful. The first home he broke into was on a busy main road. And he began seeking out homes he could break into from the back with minimal risk of being seen.
4:22 Speaker 01 That's the way to do it. If you're going to break into a home, which you should never do.
4:26 Speaker 00 Well, you know, to break into a, a home on a, a busy road from the front is not the smartest thing to do. Let's be honest, right? But what do we see? Someone who is learning as they go. And I think that's something that happens with a lot of criminals.
4:45 Speaker 01 It is. Well, or any profession, really.
4:48 Speaker 00 Well, sure.
4:49 Speaker 01 Yeah, but definitely in the criminal world.
4:51 Speaker 00 If you want to call crime a profession, which I guess to some it is, uh, when you're talking about burglaries. He also looked for signs that an elderly person might live in the home, such as handrails outside. The night stalker often exploited a design flaw in older double glazed windows that allowed external beading to be pulled away and the entire window pane removed.
5:15 Speaker 01 Well, that's definitely a flaw. And I remember some of these old windows that have that.
5:20 Speaker 00 Because you exploited that very same situation?
5:23 Speaker 01 Just saying, I remember those windows.
5:25 Speaker 00 Okay. He also cut phone lines. And then once inside, he hid the victim's mobile phones and unscrewed light bulbs. He typically woke victims up by shining a flashlight in their eyes and speaking to them before raping, sexually assaulting them. Afterwards, he stole money and valuables from the home. Now, the unscrewing of light bulbs is something we've seen in other cases.
5:51 Speaker 01 We have.
5:52 Speaker 00 As well. Something that I think some predators have learned to do. Flattened grass found in the victim's garden showed that he watched them for hours. Before breaking in, most likely waiting until he felt sure they were asleep. In some cases, the suspect spent hours inside the homes with the victims.
6:12 Speaker 01 It was like he was methodical about what he was doing.
6:15 Speaker 00 Yeah. And, and again, you know, did he refine that over time? And probably so, because I think most criminals do. But we're talking about a very scary situation here. Somebody watching you while you're, you know, in the safety of your home, getting in your home and then sexually attacking you and then spending hours doing, God knows what.
6:41 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's like, has to be one of the worst feelings to have and to remember if you survived the attack. Knowing that you were watched.
6:52 Speaker 00 And to be attacked in, in your own home.
6:54 Speaker 01 Yeah.
6:55 Speaker 00 That's the one place where you're, you're supposed to feel safe.
6:57 Speaker 01 Exactly.
6:59 Speaker 00 And there's no doubt that, you know, he preyed on the vulnerable. The oldest of the known victims was 89 years old. Several of them were blind, deaf, or had conditions such as Alzheimer's and Parkinson's.
7:14 Speaker 01 There should be a special place in hell for somebody like that.
7:16 Speaker 00 Well, I'm, I'm pretty sure there is. The night stalker typically violently assaulted the victims, but there were some cases where he showed what some have referred to as flashes of tenderness. Or he talked to the victims in an attempt to establish some kind of relationship with them. A lot of this came from The Guardian, flashes of tenderness.
7:42 Speaker 01 Do you find that to be really bizarre?
7:45 Speaker 00 Yeah, I think in the context of a very brutal sexual assault.
7:49 Speaker 01 Yeah.
7:50 Speaker 00 Trying to be tender in, in some moments. Yeah, it just seems, it seems strange. You got, you gotta wonder what the thinking was there. And trying to establish some kind of relationship. What does that mean? Was this a lonely guy who besides, you know, as we know, he wanted to sexually assault these women, but he was also trying to get close to them? And it doesn't make any sense, right? For example, he supported some of the victims elbows as he moved them around the house. He kissed one victim's cheek and said he wouldn't assault her again.
8:28 Speaker 00 He took another victim's pulse. He lifted one victim into a position where the pain of the rape would be minimized.
8:36 Speaker 01 That's so weird. It's like, here, I'm gonna do something to help you not be in so much pain as I violate you. Just don't even touch me.
8:46 Speaker 00 Well, you just have to wonder what's, what's going on in this guy's mind.
8:50 Speaker 01 Yeah.
8:51 Speaker 00 After demanding money from one victim, he refused to take the coins from a plate in her hallway because she said they were for her church collection. The night stalker could easily overpower the elderly victims, but he often fled when they confronted him. One victim read the Quran to him until he left her home. Forensic psychologist Professor David Cantor from Huddersfield University told the BBC that the night stalker escalated from burglary to, quote, stealing sex. He explained, for them, stealing anything is potentially acceptable, and that would include stealing sexual activity, using a person as some sort of surrogate,
9:35 Speaker 00 and often thinking that they have every right to do so.
9:39 Speaker 01 Again, where's that thinking coming from, right? I have the right to do this, so I'm gonna do it.
9:45 Speaker 00 I can take anything I want.
9:46 Speaker 01 Yeah.
9:47 Speaker 00 Many of the victims felt humiliated by what happened to them, and they were reluctant to call the police. The suspect told some of them not to call the authorities, and they were so terrified that they didn't long after he left their home. Police linked the night stalker to incidents involving 203 separate surviving victims, but the actual number is thought to be much higher.
10:12 Speaker 01 That's already a very high number.
10:14 Speaker 00 Very extremely.
10:16 Speaker 00 The following is a timeline of known offenses between 1992 and 2009 that later resulted in charges. Victor May, who was 89 years old, was raped in October 1992 in her home in Croydon, South London, according to police as reported by the BBC. Her bedroom door opened. She saw a man. His face was covered by a balaclava. He went over to her and forced a black glove over her mouth. He shouted at her to be quiet. She asked whether he wanted money. She gave him money from her purse, 25 pounds. He took the bulb from her lamp. He then raped her. And then
10:57 Speaker 00 there were no known night stalker cases for six years until 81-year-old victim B was raped in September 1998 in her home in Surrey. She was described as immobile and housebound, and she died of unrelated causes the following year.
11:15 Speaker 01 Immobile and housebound.
11:17 Speaker 00 Well, Gibbs, we know that a lot of predators look to prey on, you know, some of the more vulnerable persons, right, in society. But this is taking it to the very extreme level. We're talking extremely elderly here. And in some cases, you know, with a disease like Parkinson's or Alzheimer's, in this case, this person was immobile. I mean, you talk about helpless, that's helpless.
11:50 Speaker 01 I mean, this individual really is the bottom of the bottom.
11:54 Speaker 00 But what do you make of this six-year gap? Was there really a gap? Or was this person still committing, you know, crimes? They just, they just don't know about it.
12:05 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think they were probably either still committing crimes, or they were locked up somewhere doing a, you know, a short stint for something.
12:13 Speaker 00 And couldn't commit crimes.
12:14 Speaker 01 Couldn't commit them.
12:15 Speaker 00 But that year, DNA evidence confirmed the same man committed the 1992 and 1998 rapes, but there was no match in the national database. Scotland Yard initiated Operation Minstead to find the Night Stalker. Officers started calling the suspect Minstead Man and called break-ins with his MO, Minstead Burglaries. In June 1999, the Night Stalker burglarized 71-year-old victim C's home in Beckingham. The Night Stalker attempted to burglarize 77-year-old victim D's home in Orpington between June and August 1999.
12:57 Speaker 00 83-year-old victim E, a male, was assaulted in July 1999 in Colson. 82-year-old victim F was assaulted in July 1999 in Kent. The very same month, 82-year-old victim G was raped in her home, also in Kent.
13:15 Speaker 01 He really does like the elderly.
13:17 Speaker 00 Yeah.
13:18 Speaker 01 Doesn't care if they're male or female.
13:21 Speaker 00 I think most of his victims were female, but you know, we just talked about a male being assaulted. So yeah, I mean, I think you would have to say that maybe he had a preference, but was open, right, to assaulting anyone he thought was vulnerable. 88-year-old victim H was assaulted in August 1999 in Croydon. 88-year-old victim I was assaulted and raped in August 1999 in Orpington.
13:53 Speaker 01 Makes me sick. It really does. Cause I'm thinking about, you know, like when my granny was alive.
14:00 Speaker 00 Yeah.
14:01 Speaker 01 You know, like somebody would could actually break in and do something like this to somebody's granny or grandma.
14:07 Speaker 00 Great grandmother.
14:08 Speaker 01 Great grandma, you know? I mean, 80 plus years old, how do you do that?
14:14 Speaker 00 Well, you know, we say it all the time, but how do you do it to anyone?
14:18 Speaker 01 Yes.
14:19 Speaker 00 But I go back to what you said. I mean, this is the lowest of the low.
14:24 Speaker 01 Yeah.
14:25 Speaker 00 I mean, it's all low, but to attack somebody who's, you know, almost 90 years old, unable to defend themselves, in some cases with, you know, very serious diseases, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, or just completely unable to defend themselves.
14:48 Speaker 00 In this last attack, The Guardian reported details of it and used the fake name Rose in their article. Rose lost consciousness after she was raped for the first time. She recalled afterwards, he threw a towel at me to dry myself. Then he came at me again. I said, no, please. Can't you go to a prostitute? Why pick on old ladies of 88? But he did it again. Threw me a towel. Give me a break. Was he trying to be cordial? Four hours later, she was able to crawl to her CareLink alarm. She was rushed to the hospital for extreme blood loss. Her injuries were too severe for her to be transported
15:31 Speaker 00 to the special rape unit in Buckingham. She had to undergo an emergency operation to repair a perforated bowel. She spent a month in a hospital, followed by two months in a nursing home. Rose said, that man did awful things to me. I still have terrible mental and psychological scars to show for it. This man has taken my life away from me. Yeah, she was brutally attacked. And I'm sure a lot of assault victims that survive have that, those same feelings, right? There's mental and psychological scars. Yeah, absolutely. You're going to have the one with the other.
16:13 Speaker 00 Seventy-seven-year-old victim J was assaulted in October 2002 in her home in Ken. In March 2003, the night stalker burglarized 78-year-old victim K's home in Ken. Eighty-four-year-old victim L's home in Bromley was burglarized in September 2004. So, I mean, we're just going down a list here, Gibbs, and it's burglaries, it's sexual assaults, but there's a lot of them happening. Sometimes multiples in the same month.
16:46 Speaker 01 Yeah. I mean, this guy is very busy.
16:50 Speaker 00 Yeah, very prolific. During the Operation Minstead investigation, police worked with two behavioral profilers and a geographical profiler. Victims described the Night Stalker as a light-skinned black male, who was about five foot nine with a slim athletic build. He was estimated to be between 25 and 45 years old, but he often wore a mask.
17:15 Speaker 01 I mean, 25 to 45, that's a pretty healthy gap.
17:19 Speaker 00 It is, but I'm sure a lot of people are like me. I am terrible with guessing people's ages. I would never be good, a good carny.
17:30 Speaker 01 No.
17:30 Speaker 00 At that booth where you guess weight or guess ages. Actually, I'd probably be better at weight and height. Ages, for some reason, they really throw me off.
17:40 Speaker 01 I think either way, you're getting punched.
17:42 Speaker 00 Well, yeah, I mean, it's not like you walk around guessing people's ages because a lot of people don't like that.
17:48 Speaker 01 No.
17:49 Speaker 00 But the other thing is if this guy's wearing a mask, that's going to make it a lot more difficult.
17:54 Speaker 01 Sure it is.
17:55 Speaker 00 In April 2004, news outlets reported that a new DNA technique that traces ancestral bloodlines determined that the Night Stalker was of Caribbean origin. His ancestry was linked to the Windward Islands. Okay, never heard of the Windward Islands. I'm sure you've been there.
18:14 Speaker 01 Oh, you know.
18:15 Speaker 00 You travel to the Caribbean frequently.
18:18 Speaker 01 So the ocean blue too.
18:20 Speaker 00 In 2006, the police created a list of 21,500 people of interest to rule out.
18:27 Speaker 01 I'm sorry, that is a massive list.
18:30 Speaker 00 It is. I don't know that we've ever had a case where you're talking about 20-plus thousand persons of interest.
18:38 Speaker 01 Yeah.
18:39 Speaker 00 Now, I get it, probably wouldn't label the list as persons of interest, but if you're having to rule them out, it's pretty much the same thing.
18:50 Speaker 01 Seems like there'd be a lot of work involved.
18:52 Speaker 00 But by this point, 98 attacks had been linked to the same man, including four rapes and 24 sexual assaults.
19:01 Speaker 00 Black men in London were asked to voluntarily submit DNA for elimination. Over 2,000 samples were collected. However, in 2006, the Metropolitan Police were accused of sending threatening letters to men who refused to submit their DNA.
19:18 Speaker 01 Well, that's not going to help you get what you want.
19:21 Speaker 00 No, I don't think that's the right tactic to take. But I will say, I'm sure they were under immense pressure to stop this guy. 98 attacks linked to the same man. The Night Stalker struck again in the late spring and summer of 2009, sometimes committing multiple burglaries in one week. 62-year-old victim M's home in Bromley was burglarized in May 2009. In June of that year, the Night Stalker burglarized 82-year-old victim N's home in South Croydon. That month, the London Police announced that nine recent burglaries appeared to be the work of the Night Stalker.
20:02 Speaker 00 By 2009, the Night Stalker had been linked to at least 106 crimes.
20:08 Speaker 01 I mean, he's very active.
20:10 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, I can picture this guy out at night. He had to have been doing reconnaissance, right? Maybe out during the day, doing his reconnaissance and because he's going to strike at night. But he's looking for homes with elderly victims. So my thought is, he's not just picking homes at random. He's watching.
20:35 Speaker 01 Yeah, he's doing well at identifying these homes.
20:40 Speaker 00 And that takes a lot of work.
20:42 Speaker 01 It does.
20:43 Speaker 00 16 other burglaries had been linked to the Night Stalker before June. The most recent June victims were 91 and 93-year-old women who lived just 400 yards apart in Shirley, near Croydon in southeast London. Both houses were broken into on June night. The women reported that they were disturbed in the middle of the night by an intruder in their home, but they weren't injured. The location of the break-ins was somewhere the Night Stalker had struck previously. So again, two houses in one night, 400 yards apart from each other.
21:21 Speaker 01 Well, it seems like he's taking a little bit of risk there if it, uh, police get called on sight.
21:26 Speaker 00 Yeah, to strike another house just 400 yards away. But my thought was, okay, two victims, both in their 90s. Again, he had to have scouted them ahead of time. He had to have picked them out ahead of time. You're not just stumbling upon two homes with women home alone who are in their 90s.
21:48 Speaker 01 No, no, you were definitely stalking them.
21:52 Speaker 00 In August 2009, 88-year-old victim O, a male, was sexually assaulted in his home in Croydon. The Guardian identified this man as Merrick, which was a fake name, a Polish immigrant who lived alone. Merrick recalled that on the night of August 13th, 2009, he heard someone forcing his front door open and walking into the hallway. Merrick said, "It was the second time he had come. The first time around a year earlier, he broke in, dressed in black with his face all covered up. But after I challenged him, he left. I think it surprised him that I wasn't asleep. The second time, he told me he wanted money.
22:35 Speaker 00 I gave him what I had, but then he said he wanted something else." And we said it earlier, but I think it's kind of emphasized here, right? This person, the night stalker, seems like he was easily scared off with the slightest challenge by any victim. So I don't think there's any debate as to why he chose, you know, these victims who were in their late 80s, early 90s. I think this guy did not want confrontation with anyone.
23:09 Speaker 01 Yeah, he was definitely looking for the least resistance.
23:14 Speaker 00 In October 2009, the night stalker burglarized an 87 year olds in an 82 year olds home in London and Croydon respectively. The night stalker attempted to burglarize 86 year old victim ours home in Croydon in November 2009. So by 2009, the night stalker was burglarizing up to three houses a night.
23:37 Speaker 01 Busy person.
23:38 Speaker 00 Well, yeah, because you think about the time that it would take to commit the burglaries. But then there's also has to be the reconnaissance beforehand to identify the victims.
23:50 Speaker 01 Do you think it's risky that he's trying to pull off three in one night?
23:54 Speaker 00 I, I don't know that it is if he's spreading them out. I mean, I don't think he's committing burglaries right next door to each other. For two weeks in late October and early November 2009, 70 officers conducted a massive covert surveillance operation in an area of Croydon. The surveillance started on October 29th. On the first night, there were three reported night stalker break-ins, but they were outside the surveillance area. However, CCTV captured a man getting into a vehicle, identified as a box hall Zafir. And I'm not familiar with that. I know over in, in the UK,
24:36 Speaker 00 they have, you know, some different names that for vehicles that might be similar to what we're used to here, but I don't know what this is.
24:46 Speaker 01 You know, I did notice that when I was in Greece, that there was a lot of vehicles with different names, but they look similar to what we have. Yeah.
24:56 Speaker 00 After two weeks, the surveillance operation was coming to an end, but on November 15th, 2009, the night stalker was caught fleeing the scene of a burglary at 10:30 PM. An officer spotted a box hall Zafir that matched the suspects. At midnight, he saw a man running to the car. He was stopped and police searched his car. Inside the trunk was a flashlight, a crowbar, gloves, a hat. A blue weatherproof coat and a fleece jacket. The suspect was also wearing two pairs of jeans, three shirts, two pairs of underwear and shoes, but no socks. That's really weird.
25:40 Speaker 00 Well, that is a lot of layers of clothing to wear. I'm just wondering if maybe he would shed a layer of clothing before he went to his next house. Maybe. So as to give a different description in case somebody happened to see him. I don't know what the theory would be behind wearing two pairs of jeans. Or maybe he thought that that would better keep DNA from shedding. I, or I don't know. Yeah. It's just bizarre. At the place where the car was parked, a dog followed a scent trail back to a house that had just been broken into.
26:24 Speaker 00 The person who lived there was 88 years old. The man was arrested and identified himself as 52 year old Delroy Grant. While his prints were being taken, Grant told the officer, I don't know why you're bothering. I always wear gloves. That's a kind of a ballsy statement to make. Oh, but you're also kind of giving yourself away there, aren't you a little bit? Now I want to go back to what was found, you know, inside this guy's trunk. I, it seems to me very similar to what, you know, police would find if they searched your vehicle. You call it tools of the trade, but. I do, and I carry them around for research. Or at least that's what you would tell the authorities if you were pulled over. Absolutely.
27:09 Speaker 00 But Delroy Grant seemed like an unlikely suspect. He was a father of eight and a full-time caretaker for his wife, Jennifer, who had MS. However, detectives had often suspected the night stalker would be someone known as a family man, but one who lived a secret life. Delroy Easton Grant was born in Jamaica in 1957 at the age of two. His mother left him in the care of his elderly relatives. Police looked into his childhood, but found no evidence of abuse.
27:41 Speaker 01 Well, I remember that they were looking for somebody from the Caribbean.
27:45 Speaker 00 Yeah, some, some DNA technique had traced his origins to the Caribbean.
27:51 Speaker 01 I wonder because he was being taken care of by elderly family when he was younger. If that has something to do with.
28:01 Speaker 00 His choice of victims?
28:02 Speaker 01 Yes.
28:03 Speaker 00 Could have. When he was a teenager, Delroy and his father moved to the UK. According to the Telegraph, soon after the move, Delroy began committing petty crimes like theft. But this escalated to burglary and an armed robbery of a post office. Which if you're going to commit armed robbery, a post office is a terrible place to pick.
28:25 Speaker 01 That's what I'm thinking.
28:26 Speaker 00 Cause then it becomes kind of federal, at least here in the United States.
28:29 Speaker 01 I'm sure it's, uh, has similar implications over in the UK.
28:34 Speaker 00 I would think so. The sources used for this episode didn't report what type of sentencing he received. In 1975, Delroy met his first wife, 19 year old Janet Watson at a pub in Bermondsey. They were engaged within two weeks of meeting. Janet told the Telegraph, he was very charming and sophisticated. I thought I'd found my soulmate, but then the violence started. They had two sons together, Delroy Jr. And Michael Janet claimed Delroy attacked her when she was in labor with one of their children.
29:08 Speaker 01 This guy's a real winner.
29:10 Speaker 00 Well, and I mean, I think that goes to the level of violence or rage in a person. I mean, the delivery of your child. It's supposed to be this magical time and it is for most people, especially for, you know, a father who's not having to put in the, the very tough work.
29:33 Speaker 01 Yeah.
29:34 Speaker 00 Let's say, but what kind of man attacks his wife who's about ready to give birth to his, to his child?
29:40 Speaker 01 Oh, very weak man.
29:42 Speaker 00 I mean, let alone attacks his wife at any point, but specifically while she's in labor. Janet said that he was obsessed with cleanliness and if she didn't clean up to his standards, he beat her.
29:56 Speaker 01 Sounds like, sounds like one of those guys that likes the labels faced out. It's spaced a certain distance, towels even on the rack.
30:04 Speaker 00 Yeah. According to the Telegraph, Delroy left his family after viciously attacking Janet in 1977. She divorced him in 1979. Delroy moved to Leicester where he met his girlfriend, Jane Finley. They had two children together. In 1991, Delroy was convicted of handling stolen goods. The Guardian reported that this was his only criminal conviction before his 2009 arrest, which contradicts the Telegraph's report that he was convicted of armed robbery. And this does make some sense because he wasn't in the country's DNA database and
30:44 Speaker 00 his fingerprints were not on file, which is why I think he, you know, was able to get away with his crimes for so long. His relationship with Jane ended after his conviction. Delroy eventually returned to Southeast London. He met his future wife, Jennifer Edwards. They married in November, 1991 and moved to a home in Broccoli, Southeast London. He worked as a truck driver, cab driver and handyman.
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32:11 Speaker 00 Delroy and Jennifer had two sons named Jason and Louis, and Jennifer's twin daughters from her previous marriage live with them. They were active members of their local Jehovah's Witness congregation. Between 1992 and 1996, there was no evidence of Grant committing any crimes. Detectives weren't sure why he stopped. But one theory attributed the pause in crime to his marriage with Jennifer. So we kind of talked about it, right? Why would this guy just all of a sudden quit? You said, well, maybe he was incarcerated, which I, you know, is a really good theory.
32:48 Speaker 01 Sure.
32:49 Speaker 00 But also, a change in your family situation can also prompt some serial predators to pause.
32:59 Speaker 01 And maybe that's exactly what happened. She was able to get him unknowingly to stop doing what he was doing.
33:06 Speaker 00 Or maybe he just didn't have the freedom that he had before.
33:10 Speaker 01 Well, that's true.
33:11 Speaker 00 Because a change in your family situation can mean that, you know, maybe you can't just sneak out of the house whenever you want.
33:18 Speaker 01 And do hours of surveillance and stalking and...
33:23 Speaker 00 Or burglarizing homes in the middle of the night.
33:25 Speaker 01 Yeah.
33:26 Speaker 00 In 2001, Jennifer was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis. She relied on a wheelchair and later became paralyzed. Delroy was her full-time caretaker and continued driving cabs at night. Friends, neighbors, and church members thought Delroy was charming, honorable, and self-sacrificing. Delroy's longtime friend and neighbor Ray told The Guardian, "Even now, I still respect him for the way he looked after his wife. He was a number one to all of us on the street because he was so kind to her and so gentle. He would take her on day trips if the weather was nice and come to my allotment to pick up fresh vegetables for her." Ray added, "I never saw him lose his temper or heard him say a single swear word.
34:11 Speaker 00 He never gave away very much, but we thought he was a good man, humble and cool." Ray did notice that Delroy kept his house extremely clean. He said, "There wasn't a speck of dirt and nothing was out of place." He did that himself. Jennifer couldn't leave her wheelchair to do any cleaning.
34:30 Speaker 01 It's so strange that you have this individual that's so compassionate.
34:35 Speaker 00 Towards his, towards his wife.
34:37 Speaker 01 Yeah, one hand, but then can be the totally opposite to the elderly or anybody.
34:44 Speaker 00 Well, it's also strange to me that he seems to have changed in, in regards to his wives over time, in the way he treated them. You know, we detailed out some of his, his first marriages, you know, he was violent, but it doesn't sound, at least from the, the reporting, that he was with Jennifer. And maybe that part of him did change.
35:10 Speaker 01 Yeah.
35:11 Speaker 00 Over time, what didn't change was the predator side of him. Yeah, he took a break or he took breaks, but he was, but he would always go back to it. Neighbors recalled that Delroy liked to go out for late night drives, but they didn't think much of it because he was a cab driver. One neighbor recalled that man could drive at two to three o'clock in the morning. He would come blazing up in his family car and brake sharply outside his house. Then 10 minutes later, he'd be back off again at high speed and stay out for hours.
35:45 Speaker 01 You know what's interesting about this is I know somebody, let's go back like nine, 10 years ago, that used to go out for late night drives for several hours. And that person is sitting across from me.
35:59 Speaker 00 Oh, you mean when I was Ubering?
36:01 Speaker 01 You called it Ubering.
36:02 Speaker 00 Right before we started the podcast?
36:04 Speaker 01 Yeah.
36:04 Speaker 00 Yeah, I told you and I told my wife I was Ubering. Who knows what I was really doing?
36:10 Speaker 01 Yeah, we're kind of unsure what you actually were doing.
36:13 Speaker 00 An elder at the family's church said, Jennifer always seemed content and well cared for. The boys were friendly but respectful. They were always smiling. Delroy was definitely very attentive and caring. He was affectionate. They were a nice family. So again, as you pointed out, you know, some of these things said about Delroy, or what people observed of him, thought about him, is very much at odds with what we know he did.
36:43 Speaker 01 Yeah.
36:44 Speaker 00 At the time of his arrest, he and Jennifer were separated, but he was still her full-time caretaker. The Telegraph reported that Delroy was in a relationship with a bank worker named Barbara Stocks, whom he met driving cabs. They had what was described as an intense relationship. In the early stages, Delroy would shower Barbara with flowers and gifts. Her friends thought he was charming and handsome, and they noticed he dressed in expensive clothes. Delroy began to spend more and more time at Barbara's home, sometimes up to four nights a week. It was only about a 15-minute drive from his home, so he could get there quickly if Jennifer needed him.
37:25 Speaker 00 And this is a, you know, such a strange thing as well, right? He's met somebody new, he's separated from his wife, yet he's still taking care of her.
37:35 Speaker 01 Yeah.
37:36 Speaker 00 He's her full-time caretaker. And you would think, Wow, how honorable of him. You know, if you're an outsider looking in, I get it. Okay, maybe the relationship didn't work out, but he's still taking care of her full time? Now, what are those people gonna think when they find out that, yeah, he's this prolific burglar and rapist and sexual assaulter?
38:02 Speaker 01 They're gonna change how they feel about him.
38:05 Speaker 00 And it was said that Barbara was completely devastated when she learned of Delroy's crimes. After he was arrested, Delroy was unwilling to answer questions, but he did try to shift suspicion to his own son, telling officers, have you thought about my son, Delroy Jr.?
38:22 Speaker 01 Now, talking about throwing somebody underneath the bus.
38:26 Speaker 00 Your own son. It's not the first time we've heard that.
38:30 Speaker 01 Have you tried my piece of shit, son?
38:32 Speaker 00 Like I always say, people will say just about anything once they're caught, right? To try to get out of this awful situation that they put themselves in. DNA testing linked Delroy to the original 1992 and 1998 attacks, as well as numerous other crime scenes. So, I mean, I think when you talk about throwing someone else under the bus, it can't be just anyone, right? It has to be someone who could potentially share DNA markers with him.
39:06 Speaker 01 Yeah, because at least you can try to throw them off.
39:10 Speaker 00 Delroy went on to construct an elaborate story. He claimed his ex-wife Janet had been storing his DNA for years, and an accomplice of hers planted his DNA at the crime scenes. All right, so first it's, hey, check out my son. Now it's my ex-wife, who for some reason has been storing my DNA for years. We don't know what DNA that form was in, but she's got someone who is planting it at these crime scenes.
39:45 Speaker 01 Well, use your imagination on what that is and seems pretty far fetched.
39:51 Speaker 00 Yeah, I'm sure police weren't putting a lot of stock into these claims. Delroy's trial started on March 3rd, 2011. By this point, seven of the known victims had died. Police believed trauma hastened the deaths of some of the victims. And, you know, unfortunately, that's going to happen when you're choosing victims who are in their 90s.
40:16 Speaker 01 Maybe that was part of his plan, too.
40:17 Speaker 00 And I actually thought about that as a possibility. I think it had more to do with the fact that he was afraid of any type of fight and felt as though these older individuals were less likely to be able to, you know, fight with him. But that's, that is a possibility.
40:38 Speaker 01 I mean, if anything, it was a convenient benefit for him.
40:41 Speaker 00 Yeah, even if he didn't think about it ahead of time. In their opening statement, prosecutors described how Delroy preyed on vulnerable elderly people in their homes at night. The jury heard that Delroy tried to pin the crimes on his son and his supposed admission after he was arrested. As mentioned, Delroy told the officer taking his fingerprints, "I don't know why you're bothering. I always wear gloves." And this was true as none of his fingerprints were recovered from any of the crime scenes. Prosecutor Jonathan Laidlaw said, per the BBC, "He was apparently desperate enough to have suggested that his own son may be responsible, arriving at him as an alternative candidate,
41:26 Speaker 00 presumably because he hoped that his son might share his DNA profile." During his interviews, Delroy said nothing at all, and he provided not a hint of genuine defense. His story that his ex-wife tried to frame him was extraordinary.
41:43 Speaker 01 Yes, it was.
41:45 Speaker 00 Delroy went to great lengths to avoid being caught, such as removing light bulbs and cutting phone lines to give himself more time to escape. This became a hallmark of his crimes. And I think we said it early on, but you know, he obviously had a, an MO. One of the big things was the, the age of his victims. But some of these other things, you know, helped police throughout the years to kind of think that, you know, they were dealing with the Night Stalker.
42:16 Speaker 01 Yeah, they were related to the other cases.
42:18 Speaker 00 After the 1999 media campaigns to catch the Night Stalker were ramped up. Delroy became increasingly careful not to leave clues. He often wore gloves and in March 2003, he burglarized the home of a 78-year-old widow and wiped her hands with a cloth. So, I mean, you could say he knew, right? That they were really looking for him.
42:44 Speaker 01 Right.
42:45 Speaker 00 And so he had to be extremely careful. What's amazing is that he can't stop or doesn't want to stop. You know, the, the threat of being caught. We had this entire manhunt operation out for the Night Stalker. But his compulsion was too great. He couldn't stop it.
43:08 Speaker 01 No.
43:09 Speaker 00 Or didn't want to stop. One or the other. He just went to greater and greater lengths is to try to not leave anything behind.
43:17 Speaker 01 Yeah. I mean, you're wiping down your victims now.
43:19 Speaker 00 But even that didn't work because police were still able to obtain a DNA sample. The rapes mostly stopped in the last 10 years of Delroy's crime spree, possibly because he thought advances in forensic science would lead to his capture. And that would make sense. You think about the, at the time when he started, I mean, DNA was around, it was known about, but it wasn't everywhere. And not everybody outside of law enforcement had a great understanding of it. But, you know, this guy was active for 17 years.
43:57 Speaker 00 So at some point, I'm sure he started to hear more and more about DNA and started to get scared that that was going to be what caught him. It was difficult and if not impossible to understand what Delroy's motive was. The prosecutor told the jury whether it was just the additional sexual element that he enjoyed, or it was the power and control he could assert whilst committing these offenses, or it was the fear and anxiety which he created and reveled in will probably remain unclear. The prosecutor read details of several cases where the victims had passed away. The court heard that after attacking an 88-year-old victim, Delroy touched him on the shoulder
44:42 Speaker 00 and said, "We're still good friends." Okay, yeah, sure we are, buddy. That just goes back to what we were talking about earlier, right? The mindset, what's going on in this guy's mind? Despite the attack, the man still had the presence of mind. To give Delroy the wrong PIN number for his bank card, Delroy made two failed attempts to withdraw money from cash machines shortly after the attack. Detective Constable Yvette Daniel testified that the 89-year-old victim from 1992 told her she regretted reporting the attack. Daniel described the victim as proud and private. She was left crying and shaking.
45:24 Speaker 00 His doctors inspected her after she was raped twice in her home. After the attack, she was too scared to be left on her own at night. And I think it's, again, just gives you a sense of what some of these victims not only go through during the attacks, the rapes, the sexual assaults, but what they have to live with after the fact. Yeah, for the rest of their life.
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46:47 Speaker 00 The detective read the woman's statement in court. She said that she got into bed to read but struggled to sleep. After hearing a loud knocking sound, she made herself a cup of coffee and returned to bed for about 15 minutes before seeing a man in the doorway of her room. The victim asked him what he was doing. And according to her statement, "He rushed to me and forced his gloved hand on my mouth. He shouted at me to be quiet. I said, 'What do you want? Money?' He didn't say anything. She attempted to hide a key to her safe, but gave him her money in purse. He unscrewed the light bulb in her bedroom and cut the phone line. He raped her and left her home with several hundred pounds in jewelry. She couldn't call for help,
47:31 Speaker 00 so she had to walk to her niece's house to call the police." The second victim's statement was also read in court. "She believed the attacker was going to finish me off." She initially didn't want to tell her son because he would have been horrified. When recalling the attack, the victim said, "It's a nasty feeling to know that a stranger has been through your home." The assault was absolutely ghastly.
47:57 Speaker 01 I can't imagine, but to be violated on different levels.
48:03 Speaker 00 And inside your own home.
48:05 Speaker 01 Exactly.
48:06 Speaker 00 I think is an extra added element. The prosecutor read a statement from an 82-year-old victim identified as Mrs. F, who was attacked in July 1999. Mrs. F fell asleep and said that, "The next thing I knew, a hand was covering my mouth and nose. I felt quite a bit of pressure from his hand on my face. I thought, I must be dreaming. I remember seeing this big, black, hooded masked face. After assaulting her, the man drank a can of beer, shook her hand, and walked out the front door. She thanked him because she feared the attack could have been worse."
48:46 Speaker 01 Like, what was he trying to do by shaking her hand? Like, "Hey, thanks. Hope we're all good here."
48:52 Speaker 00 "We're still friends," like he told that one guy.
48:54 Speaker 01 Yeah.
48:55 Speaker 00 But, you know, if you're one of the victims, you know, at that point, you're doing anything you can to save your life.
49:04 Speaker 01 Yeah, of course.
49:05 Speaker 00 So if he reaches out to shake hands, you're gonna shake hands.
49:09 Speaker 01 Yeah.
49:09 Speaker 00 If that's gonna keep you alive, you're gonna do whatever you have to do. But it does seem so strange. Mrs. F elaborated in her statement. "I said something like, 'Thank you for not hurting me. I felt that he could have been so horrible and nasty to me that, as shocking and unpleasant as it was, I was thankful that he didn't hurt me. Somehow, he shook my hand and pushed me back from the door.'" She described him as well-spoken and almost respectful.
49:40 Speaker 01 Minus the assault.
49:41 Speaker 00 Right, minus that. A deceased 88-year-old victim who was assaulted in 1999 said the attacker stopped after she told him, "It's a good job. Your mother can't see you now." She later told the police she was unsure if she had actually spoken the words. Another 88-year-old victim said in her statement that she was woken up by a creaking noise. "And all of a sudden, I saw this figure at the end of the bed. He was completely covered, head to foot, in an all-in-one type catsuit. He was really brutal. I was in such awful pain." The jury heard testimony from Delroy's ex-wife, Janet Watson, who said his allegations that
50:23 Speaker 00 she stored his semen in order to plant it at crime scenes years later was unbelievable.
50:31 Speaker 01 Yeah, I don't think there's too many people out there storing semen.
50:36 Speaker 00 Yeah, you have a freezer full of yours. I don't know why, but for most people, that's not a thing that they do.
50:45 Speaker 01 It's not normal.
50:46 Speaker 00 It's not. And just the thought that this woman who, you know, had been married to Delroy, he was violent to her, and she's storing his semen. Why? Because years later, she's going to find somebody to help her plant this as evidence at burglaries. It's just such an outlandish claim.
51:11 Speaker 01 It really is.
51:13 Speaker 00 Janet testified about her reaction to learning of the allegations that Delroy accused her of using a male accomplice to plant his DNA, saying, "I was speechless. I was amazed that he could do that." Halfway through her testimony, Delroy shouted at her, "You are a liar." During her cross-examination, Janet testified that Delroy was a serious womanizer. They met after Grant started talking to her infant daughter. Their relationship moved quickly and he soon moved in with her and proposed. At first, she said he was prince charming, but their relationship turned well sour after they were married. She soon became pregnant. And I said it, right?
51:56 Speaker 00 He was violent during their marriage. Janet said, as quoted by the BBC, "He made it very clear that it was not going to be a nice time staying with him." So she filed for divorce in 1979. After the divorce, she said she knew nothing about where he was or what he was doing. She denied having a friend at a hospital who gave her specimen bottles in which she could store Grant's semen. She said, "None of this is true. I think his imagination is getting away with him. I had no friend working at the hospital. He needs help. I do not know what is wrong with him. I did not do that. I was getting on with my life.
52:39 Speaker 00 I had a sick child to look after and I had other children to look after. I had no time to do this." So, you know, just imagine what this woman went through. She didn't have a great marriage, right? With Delroy. And then years later, he accuses her of storing his semen and planting it at crimes to frame him.
53:03 Speaker 01 Yeah.
53:03 Speaker 00 And she has to get on the stand and defend herself. Now, Delroy got on the stand and denied committing the rape, sexual assaults and burglaries. Again, he accused his ex-wife of framing him in a campaign of malice and hatred and maintained that "my DNA was planted by someone else."
53:23 Speaker 00 But because what else are you gonna say? Your DNA is found at these crime scenes.
53:29 Speaker 01 You're trying to create some reasonable doubt.
53:31 Speaker 00 And the only way to do that is to claim that someone planned it. You can't say it's not yours because they've conclusively matched it to you. He denied telling officers there was no point taking his fingerprints and that the crowbar and fleece jacket in his car were planted by Janet and her accomplice. Man, they were busy, right? Janet and her accomplice.
53:53 Speaker 01 They were really, really busy.
53:55 Speaker 00 Planting all this semen all over the place. There's just semen everywhere.
54:00 Speaker 01 Like a lot of Navy vessels stopped off at port?
54:02 Speaker 00 Yeah, exactly. During cross-examination, he asked the prosecutor, for what reason would anyone want to rape old women? When asked how one of the victims who said she was kissed by the attacker had his DNA on her, Delroy responded, it's possible he, meaning Janet Watson's alleged accomplice, knows how to kiss someone and leave someone else's DNA on her face.
54:29 Speaker 01 Because they teach that somewhere and.
54:32 Speaker 00 This is like a, like a sci-fi movie or some kind of spy thriller that, you know, is kind of outside the realm of possibility. He also claimed that the reason he was wearing two pairs of jeans, three shirts and two pairs of underwear on the night of his arrest was because he was helping his lover decorate her kitchen. Now, and that makes sense, right? Because when you're decorating a kitchen, you want many, many layers of clothes on.
55:02 Speaker 01 Yeah, at least two pairs of pants and three shirts.
55:04 Speaker 00 He said he normally wore two pairs of underwear because he was not like some men walking about in one pair, hanging about. I do not like to see that. So what is it? He's bragging he needs two pairs of underwear to keep his junk in or what?
55:21 Speaker 01 It sounds like it. I mean, I get it. I mean, from, coming from somebody that wears four pairs.
55:28 Speaker 00 So you know what that's all about. It's just, again, right? We say it a lot, but the things that these people say when confronted with the known evidence, it's laughable sometimes.
55:43 Speaker 01 It is. It really is.
55:44 Speaker 00 Now, their crimes are not laughable. They're horrible. But what they say to try to get out from under those crimes is laughable. In his closing statement, prosecutor Jonathan Laylaw said, Delroy's defense defies belief in that the series of attacks were the stuff of nightmares in the sort of case which keeps us all awake at night. And he's not wrong there, right? What this guy did is the stuff of nightmares. On March 24, 2011, Grant was found guilty of 29 offenses, including burglary, rape, and sexual assault. The following day, he received four life sentences with a minimum of 27 years.
56:28 Speaker 00 He was given life sentences for three counts of rape and one count of attempted rape. He received concurrent eight-year sentences for seven indecent assaults and concurrent six-year sentences for 18 burglaries and attempted burglaries. The judge told Delroy, per the BBC, "Your utter depravity knows no bounds. I have no doubt that you're a very evil man capable of committing heinous crimes." The judge described how he left a trail of distress, fear, and misery, and carried out humiliating and degrading sexual attacks. He said, "You targeted elderly victims living alone. Your actions blighted the remaining precious years of their lives,
57:13 Speaker 00 their homes, where many of them had lived for years, should have been their safest refuge, where they could have expected to live their lives undisturbed and at peace. It's hard to imagine the extreme fear that the feel of your gloved hand in the sight of your masked figure looming above them must have been felt by your victims in their beds."
57:34 Speaker 01 Well, he's exactly right.
57:36 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah, he is. And it just goes back to, for me, to that, what must have been horrifying feeling of now being in your home, where before it was probably where you felt the safest.
57:50 Speaker 01 Yeah, and it's never going to be the same, right?
57:52 Speaker 00 No.
57:52 Speaker 01 You've been violated.
57:55 Speaker 01 On several different levels inside your own home.
57:58 Speaker 00 And even if you move out of that home, your, your, your feeling of safety is never going to be the same.
58:04 Speaker 01 Yeah, I don't know if you would ever feel secure.
58:06 Speaker 00 No, I think it would be hard. Delroy had never shown remorse in his allegations about his ex-wife, planning semen at crime scenes to frame him, showed his complete amorality. The court also heard statements from victims and their families. An 85-year-old identified as Ms. Jay said that she now does a lot of locking and bolting and taking precautions. It changed my life. Police linked Delroy to incidents involving 203 victims. But like we said in the beginning, Gibbs, some investigators believe that actual number of victims could be as high as 600.
58:46 Speaker 01 I think it's pretty high.
58:48 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, there's, there's no way to know for sure, but you know, many of the victims likely died without reporting what happened to them. You know, if they were in their late 80s, their early 90s, and for whatever reason, decided not to come forward and reported, as you know, some victims do, it's likely that they could have died and no one ever knew about it.
59:14 Speaker 01 Yeah.
59:14 Speaker 00 The Metropolitan Police said Delroy was responsible for some of the most awful and disturbing crimes in police history. After the conviction, it came out that the police missed the chance to arrest Delroy. In 1999, 146 offenses, including 23 sexual assaults, were committed after this missed opportunity. And that's, that's tough. That's always tough.
59:41 Speaker 01 Well, it's not going to make the victims feel any better about what happened.
59:45 Speaker 00 Commander Simon Foy, head of the MET's homicide and serious crime command, said, "We are deeply sorry for the trauma suffered by all those victims and our failure to bring Grant to justice earlier."
59:58 Speaker 01 As you should be.
59:59 Speaker 00 An independent police complaints commission investigation found that confusion over names and a poor response to a burglary caused officers to fail to arrest Delroy sooner. On May 28th, 1999, a member of the public spotted a car at a burglary in Bromley. They took down the license plate number and called the police. The car was traced to Delroy Grant through driver records at the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency when officers did a search of their own system. The police national computer, they found a man with the same name, living in East London. He wasn't the same age as the other Delroy Grant.
1:00:40 Speaker 00 By coincidence, this Delroy Grant's DNA happened to be in the national database. His DNA was not a match to the crime scene. The police did go to the older Delroy Grant's home in South London, but they weren't thorough enough. He wasn't home. An officer spoke to his wife. She confirmed that the car seen near the burglary did belong to them. Inexplicably, the police never returned to the home to speak to Delroy himself. In August of 1999, Delroy Grant was eliminated from police inquiries. So, I mean, I think when you actually learn the full scope of it, it becomes even more
1:01:23 Speaker 00 frustrating that police really kind of had him. They just didn't, they didn't do their job.
1:01:29 Speaker 01 They didn't follow through.
1:01:30 Speaker 00 No. In 2001, police received another clue that might have led to Grant. A citizen called Crime Stoppers and said an E-FIT of the offender resembled a man in a children's home named Delroy Grant. Police do not regard this as a missed opportunity because the information was sketchy and the caller said the E-FIT also looked like someone else. Officers also found no evidence Delroy worked in a children's home and the children's home in question was destroyed in a fire, making it difficult to obtain records. The investigation may also have been sidetracked by Scotland Yard's public appeal in 2006. Investigators said the suspect rode a motorcycle and this was
1:02:14 Speaker 00 one of his significant characteristics. One victim heard a noisy throaty engine roar after the offender left their home. However, there was no evidence Delroy Grant owned a motorcycle, but he did own a car that could have made a similar noise.
1:02:31 Speaker 01 Yeah, but if you're Scotland Yard and putting something like that out there, people are going to be thinking, oh, it's gotta be the motorcycle Scotland Yard.
1:02:38 Speaker 00 Yeah, so it's a bad idea, right? To put that out there with no proof. According to the BBC, what sidetracked the police more than anything was their effort to identify the offender's ancestry. DNA analysis showed that he originated from the Caribbean and his relatives going back five generations were probably from the Windward Islands. This helped narrow down the pool of potential suspects from 26,000 to 6,000, but it didn't get the police closer to Delroy, who was born in Jamaica and was not on the list of suspects. Following the IPCC investigation, two detective constables were disciplined by being given management advice. Okay?
1:03:23 Speaker 00 I don't know exactly what all that entails. It doesn't sound like that much of a discipline. According to the BBC, Delroy can apply for parole after 25 years and eight months, but it's possible he may never get out of prison. For 17 years, the night stalker terrorized South London and the surrounding area. Delroy Grant targeted elderly men and women who lived alone, like we've touched on, right? An extremely vulnerable group and will most likely never know the true number of his victims, which authorities believe ranges from 200 all the way up to 600. And I have a feeling it's probably closer to the latter.
1:04:07 Speaker 01 Same here. Guy was a piece of shit.
1:04:10 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, you say was, he's still alive, so I would probably change it to is. Now, could he technically be rehabilitated?
1:04:21 Speaker 00 Yeah, maybe. But in my opinion, should a guy like this, having done what he did to so many people, ever get out of prison? And I would say no.
1:04:32 Speaker 01 He shouldn't. I mean, he got a handful of life sentences, so he should just stay there.
1:04:38 Speaker 00 But he, he could be eligible for parole after 25 years. That doesn't mean they'll let him out, but I, I think it would be scary, even though, you know, obviously, he would be older. He would probably be what, in his 80s? I don't know.
1:04:55 Speaker 01 Well, you know what? Maybe they should let him out when he's in his 80s. And, uh, maybe someone could go visit him.
1:05:02 Speaker 00 I, I don't know how many people are as sick as this guy, nasty as this guy. You know, for, for all we know, he never killed anybody. But that doesn't change the fact that, you know, he's a, a very brutal, nasty human being.
1:05:19 Speaker 01 Yeah, his violence didn't go to the extreme of murder, like you said, that we're aware of. But he scarred these victims for the rest of their lives.
1:05:30 Speaker 00 Yeah, the number of people he affected is unbelievable. But that's it for our episode on Delroy Grant, the Night Stalker. We got a voicemail, Gibbs, you want to check that out?
1:05:42 Speaker 01 Let's hear it.
1:05:43 Speaker 03 Hi, Mike and Gibby. This is Catherine from Atlanta, Georgia. I just finished listening to the episode about Todd Kenhammer, wherein you two were, uh, debating how to pronounce the word cricoid, which is correct, the way that y'all said it. Um, Mike, I believe you said your daughter just started working as a speech pathologist, um, which is what I do for a living. And I would say anytime you're not sure how to pronounce a structure in the neck or the throat for the podcast, you should probably ask her, um, because we all have to learn all of that for our licensing exam, and it's probably pretty fresh in her
1:06:24 Speaker 03 mind. So just something you might not have thought of. Um, I love the podcast and, um, keep your head on the swivel, keep your own time ticking. Bye.
1:06:36 Speaker 00 No, that's great advice. You know, I'm not used to asking my daughters for advice on the podcast, but you know, my daughter is a professional now. It's kind of hard to believe that.
1:06:48 Speaker 01 That's true. She is.
1:06:50 Speaker 00 So I should be asking her about stuff like that.
1:06:53 Speaker 01 You've got a few professionals in your life now.
1:06:56 Speaker 00 Uh huh.
1:06:56 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:06:57 Speaker 00 I'm still waiting for you to graduate to that rank.
1:07:00 Speaker 01 Oh, okay.
1:07:00 Speaker 00 A professional. Professional. You're a professional, but professional what?
1:07:05 Speaker 01 There you go.
1:07:06 Speaker 00 That's, that's the question. But we appreciate the voicemail very much. All right, buddy. That is it for another episode of True Crime All The Time. So for Mike.
1:07:15 Speaker 01 And Gibby.
1:07:15 Speaker 00 Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.
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