Pod Insights True Crime All The Time Rodney Alcala Part 3 About this episode Rodney Alcala was an American serial killer and sex offender who was sentenced to death in California for multiple murders. Alcala has been conclusively linked to eight murders, but authorities suspect he could have killed over 100 people during his travels around the country.
Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the infamous serial killer Rodney Alacala. In part three of the Rodney Alcala episodes, we’ll cover his subsequent murder trials and the long path to securing justice for the victims, as well as additional cases linked to Alcala in recent years.
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1:47 Speaker 00 Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode 453 of the True Crime All the Time Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson, and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?
1:57 Speaker 01 Hey, I'm doing good. How about you?
1:58 Speaker 00 I'm doing very well.
2:00 Speaker 01 Good.
2:01 Speaker 00 Having a good week.
2:02 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:03 Speaker 00 Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Kaitlyn Godby.
2:07 Speaker 01 Hey, Godby.
2:08 Speaker 00 Anya Hoffman.
2:09 Speaker 01 What's up, Hoffman?
2:10 Speaker 00 Johnny Brown.
2:11 Speaker 01 Hey, Brown.
2:12 Speaker 00 Robert Phillips.
2:14 Speaker 01 What's up, Phillips?
2:14 Speaker 00 Daryl.
2:15 Speaker 01 Good old Daryl.
2:16 Speaker 00 Fabiola Galindo.
2:18 Speaker 01 Ooh, Fabiola.
2:19 Speaker 00 Which I'm having a lot of fun with.
2:21 Speaker 01 Yeah, you are.
2:21 Speaker 00 Maria. Siya.
2:26 Speaker 00 I'm really not sure on this one.
2:27 Speaker 01 It's just Maria.
2:29 Speaker 00 Okay.
2:29 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:30 Speaker 00 Shane Virgins.
2:31 Speaker 01 Hey Shane.
2:32 Speaker 00 And last but not least Nora Galan.
2:35 Speaker 01 I think that's Nora.
2:37 Speaker 00 Oh, okay.
2:38 Speaker 01 Cause it's got the two O's in it.
2:40 Speaker 00 Yeah.
2:40 Speaker 01 You gotta stretch it.
2:41 Speaker 00 That that makes perfect sense. And then if we go back into the vault.
2:47 Speaker 00 This week, we selected Michelle Starling.
2:49 Speaker 01 Hey, Starling.
2:50 Speaker 00 Yeah. And speaking of Patreon, Saturday night, we dropped a brand new Patreon episode. It's on 20 year old Jody Loomis, who was murdered in 1972. And then decades later, many decades later, almost 50 years later, genetic genealogy was used to identify the killer. And we're trying something new here. And we will be on on TCAT as well with some of these lesser known cases, not giving away the killer right up front. And and maybe providing a little bit more mystery to the episodes. It's something that some people have asked for, and we're going to try it out.
3:28 Speaker 01 Okay.
3:30 Speaker 00 We also have a brand new episode out on True Crime All The Time Unsolved, where we're talking about 15 year old Caleb Burke, who went missing in August 2009, after being dropped off at a condemned property by an older family friend.
3:45 Speaker 01 Hey, you didn't mention that I was wearing a more sizable shirt this time on the Patreon.
3:50 Speaker 00 Yeah, one of the three shirts that you bought that came in after Crime Con, last week's was toddler sized. This week was a normal size that said Team Mike. Last week, it said Fergie, Fergie, Fergie.
4:03 Speaker 01 Yeah.
4:03 Speaker 00 Some people thought that you bought the singer Fergie merchandise and just happened to get it too small, which could be.
4:12 Speaker 01 Could be, I don't know. Typed it Fergie shirt, you know?
4:16 Speaker 00 All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All The Time?
4:20 Speaker 01 I'm ready.
4:21 Speaker 00 We are on to our part three and last part on Rodney Alcala. In part two, we covered the known crimes he committed in 1979 and how he was finally apprehended. In part three, we'll cover his second murder trial and the long path to securing justice for the victims, as well as additional cases linked to Alcala in recent years. Rodney Alcala's second trial for the murder of Robin Samso began on April 23, 1986. The trial was almost identical to the first, except for the omission of Alcala's prior criminal record in the guilt phase.
5:04 Speaker 00 The jury heard from Bridget Wolvert, Jackie Young, and Dana Crappa. At the retrial, Dana testified that she couldn't remember anything from June 20, 1979. The judge allowed the jury to hear a transcript of her earlier testimony. But Alcala's attorneys argued that she had been hypnotized by a police interviewer who made suggestions about details of the case. However, in a hearing outside the jury's presence, the judge found that there was no evidence to conclude she had been hypnotized. During the first trial, several inmates testified about Alcala's alleged incriminating remarks.
5:49 Speaker 00 But at the retrial, the prosecution used testimony from Fred Williams, who told jurors that Alcala once returned from court, laughing after watching the police demonstrate how Robin's bicycle could have been carried inside his car. Alcala allegedly told Williams, "Those guys look like a bunch of morons." I threw that bicycle in with no trouble at all. So I can understand, you know, the prosecution maybe wanting to go away from inmate testimony, right? It can be troublesome in, in a lot of cases. But if Rodney really said this to this guy Fred Williams, okay, it's pretty incriminating.
6:33 Speaker 00 Williams also testified that he and Alcala were once looking at a picture of a woman in a sexually suggestive post. Rodney said, she's nothing like Robin was. Robin kicked and clawed like a wildcat.
6:48 Speaker 01 More damaging statements.
6:50 Speaker 00 It is, but again, I mean, is this from another inmate? Just a different inmate? Maybe they, they weren't sold on the credibility of the other guys that they had used in the first trial, or maybe they thought this guy's testimony was more compelling. The things that he said would be more compelling to the jury. Alcala was convicted of murder a second time on May 28th, 1986. Tali Shapiro and Monique Hoy recounted being attacked by Alcala during the penalty phase. On June 19th, Rodney spoke at the end of the penalty phase and asked the jury to spare his life. He said, as quoted by the LA Times, "Please don't kill me.
7:35 Speaker 00 I don't think I should die for something I didn't do. Please don't kill me, but I killed, you know, all these girls and women."
7:46 Speaker 01 I say, how many of those victims of his said, "Please don't kill me."
7:52 Speaker 00 Yeah. And he didn't listen. Why should the, the jury listen? Alcala admitted to his history of molesting young girls, but denied ever meeting Robin Sampson. His attorney asked him to speak to the jury about what an appropriate sentence would be. He said that his record in prison proved, "I am absolutely harmless. I'm not a threat to anyone. That might be the biggest crock of shit I've ever heard."
8:19 Speaker 01 I was gonna say, who's gonna buy that?
8:21 Speaker 00 First of all, if I'm a juror. The last person that I want to hear from about what an appropriate sentence would be is Rodney Alcala, who's already been convicted. I don't care what you have to say. And, you know, your statement that you're not a threat to anyone is, it's just BS. Alcala's attorney argued that there were too many unanswered questions about where he was the day Robin disappeared, and told the jurors that if they were left with any doubt, they shouldn't sentence him to death. The prosecutor argued that Alcala preyed on defenseless young girls, and the death penalty
9:02 Speaker 00 should be reserved for a special category of crime, which Alcala fit into. And going back to that quote, "I'm not a threat to anyone." Hey, you, you might not be a threat to anyone in prison, because you preyed on young girls. You might get your ass handed to you, literally.
9:23 Speaker 01 You should be feel, you should feel threatened.
9:25 Speaker 00 In, in prison, but you still did what you did, right, to, to these young girls. And you were the predator. You were a huge threat to them, ultimate threat. Deputy DA Thomas Gothel said, "The defendant is the epitome of malevolence. He's a sexual carnivore, and the meat he thrives on is our children."
9:51 Speaker 01 Yikes, man, but that's to the point.
9:54 Speaker 00 He's not wrong, but that's a very scary statement. Once again, the jury sentenced Alcala to death on June 20th, 1986. On August 20th, the judge upheld the death sentence. The judge told Alcala that Robin Samso's murder was heinous enough, and his criminal past made the death sentence even more justified. And it's hard to argue with that. I get it. If you don't believe in the death penalty, you could say, well, nobody deserves it. But I think... If you're looking at it from the standpoint of it exists and because of that, who does deserve
10:35 Speaker 00 it? You have to put Rodney in that category. During his time in prison, Alcala sued the California prison system for a slip and fall claim and for failing to provide him a low-fat diet. He also complained about a law that required he and other death row inmates submit DNA mousewaps for comparisons in unsolved cases. Have you ever heard of an inmate suing the prison for a slip and fall?
11:04 Speaker 01 No.
11:05 Speaker 00 What do you think this is? Walmart?
11:07 Speaker 01 Yeah, but I'm sure somebody has made some money off of it at one point.
11:11 Speaker 00 Somehow, I'm sure. And for failing to provide him a low-fat diet. You're on death row.
11:19 Speaker 01 Yeah.
11:20 Speaker 00 Or you're in prison. You eat whatever they give you.
11:23 Speaker 01 That's the way it should be, but I don't know if that's that way anymore.
11:27 Speaker 00 Yeah, I don't know. But it shouldn't be a country club. It's punishment. And I can completely understand why he doesn't want to submit to DNA mousewaps, right? Because, let's face it, we've talked about it. It's believed that he was involved in many, many more crimes than which, you know, he was convicted for. So he doesn't want to be linked to them.
11:56 Speaker 01 Of course not.
11:57 Speaker 00 Alcala wrote a book titled You, The Jury, where he claimed his innocence and pointed to an alternative suspect. In 1992, the California Supreme Court upheld the verdict, but Alcala filed a federal habeas corpus petition. So, I mean, he's not going quietly.
12:15 Speaker 01 No.
12:16 Speaker 00 Right? And, and a lot of inmates don't. As big and bad as they think they are, they claim to be, most people don't want to be put to death.
12:27 Speaker 01 But he has plenty of time to do all this appeal work. So
12:30 Speaker 00 Yeah. What else you got to do?
12:31 Speaker 01 Yeah.
12:31 Speaker 00 But be a pain in the butt to everybody. Sue people, file petitions. On April 2nd, 2001, the US District Court overturned Alcala's conviction, ruling that the Superior Court Judge precluded the defense from presenting evidence material to significant issues in the case. The court ruled that the jury should not have been allowed to consider the testimony of the Forest Service firefighter who found Robin's remains. This decision was upheld in 2003 by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals Panel, in part because a witness was not allowed to support Alcala's contention that the park ranger who found Robin's body
13:16 Speaker 00 had been hypnotized by police investigators. But they are really big on all these witnesses being hypnotized by law enforcement.
13:25 Speaker 01 They are. So he's got to be happy with this.
13:29 Speaker 00 Well, we just said he's a real pain in the butt at this point, but he's also been pretty successful, he and his defense team, in getting his convictions overturned. In 2003, Orange County Senior Deputy DA Matt Murphy was working on a new strategy for re-prosecuting Alcala. He received a call from his boss, who just heard from the Los Angeles DA's office, DNA swabs from Alcala matched the DNA in semen left at the murders of two Los Angeles women. The victims were Georgia Wickstead and Charlotte Lamb. So it was after this that prosecutors in Orange and Los Angeles Counties began to work together.
14:13 Speaker 00 Investigator Stephen Mack with the Huntington Beach PD took a lead role in the case. He told A&E that his predecessors always suspected Alcala was a serial killer, but they didn't have DNA testing at the time. When he was looking through items, previous investigators discovered in Alcala's storage locker, Mack found two rose earrings and a red satin pouch. He suspected they belonged to one of the other victims. The DNA matched Charlotte Lamb. And we talked about this, right, in a previous episode, the keeping of trophies, pre-DNA, okay, maybe it doesn't hurt someone like Rodney as badly.
14:58 Speaker 00 But after DNA comes about, those things, just to have in your possession, become so very dangerous.
15:08 Speaker 01 As this one did, right? I mean, it, it's going to help the prosecution.
15:13 Speaker 00 Oh, absolutely. On June 5th, 2003, the LA DA's office filed murder charges against Rodney Alcala alleging that he killed Georgia Wickstead during a burglary and rape. In October 2003, the Orange County DA's office refouled murder charges in the Robin Samso case. In 2004, investigators matched Rodney's DNA to semen left on the body of 18-year-old Jill Barcombe, who was murdered in 1977. On September 19th, 2005, Rodney Alcala was indicted for the murders of four Los Angeles County women.
15:55 Speaker 01 He's just being hit, boom, boom, boom.
15:58 Speaker 00 Yeah, and you know, part of that is advancements in DNA. Part of that, I'm sure, is him being successful multiple times and getting his conviction overturned. Hey, you want to mess with us? We're going to try to figure out everything you've ever done.
16:18 Speaker 01 Yeah.
16:19 Speaker 00 And, you know, new DNA technology is going to help us do that. Prosecutors entered a motion to combine the Robin Samso charges with the four other cases. In 2006, an Orange County court ruled that all five cases could be combined and tried in Orange County. On June 12th, 2008, the California Supreme Court affirmed that Alcala would face a single trial for all counts, setting aside a decision by an appeals court that ordered two trials. So this is really playing out in multiple levels of the court system, right?
17:00 Speaker 00 The California Supreme Court is getting involved in a lot of things related to Rodney.
17:07 Speaker 01 But we can see a strategy, right? I mean, they're, they're throwing all these cases together.
17:12 Speaker 00 Something's going to stick.
17:13 Speaker 01 Yeah.
17:14 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, the more cases, the more DNA, the better chance that you're going to get, you know, one or multiple convictions that won't be overturned. In the fall of 2009, Alcala pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity to the murders of Georgia Wickstad, Charlotte Lamb, Jill Parento, and Jill Barkum. He then changed his plea to not guilty.
17:43 Speaker 01 He's all over the place.
17:45 Speaker 00 Yeah. So first, not guilty by reason of insanity. And then second, just plain old not guilty. The retrial started on January 11, 2010. Prosecutors outlined how Rodney Alcala tortured the victims. One victim was raped with a clawtoothed hammer. Another had her skull beaten with a rock. One was strangled hard enough to break bones.
18:12 Speaker 01 He was just a brutal guy.
18:13 Speaker 00 He was. We've said that multiple times, but you know, this, it really drives home how vicious and violent this guy really was. All were repeatedly strangled and resuscitated to prolong their agony.
18:28 Speaker 01 I mean, this is how he got off, right?
18:31 Speaker 00 Yes. I, I think that's a really good inference to make. I mean, why in the world would you strangle someone to the point of death and then resuscitate them only to do it again? I mean, it's, it's sadistic. And you can only surmise that he was doing it because that's what, you know, got him off or floated his boat or whatever term you want to use.
19:01 Speaker 01 Yeah.
19:02 Speaker 00 Two of the four women were posed nude after their deaths. The jury also heard about the DNA evidence linking Alcala to the Los Angeles victims. Although there was no forensic evidence linking Alcala to Robin Samso's murder, prosecuting the cases together allowed the jury to see commonalities. And you know, this is something that we've talked about not being allowed to introduce prior acts into a trial or other cases into a trial. Well, trying them all together kind of takes that out of the equation. Now, you might not still be able to do prior acts,
19:45 Speaker 00 but the jury's hearing about all of these cases at the same time.
19:49 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think it's perfect, actually.
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21:12 Speaker 00 At his 2010 trial, Al Khela acted as his own attorney. He gave his opening statement on February 2nd, three weeks into the trial. And we know that always works out well. Now, this was a fairly intelligent guy.
21:28 Speaker 01 He was.
21:30 Speaker 00 But that does not mean he was an attorney, you know?
21:34 Speaker 01 Yeah.
21:35 Speaker 00 Being smart will get you so far. Bundy was a little different because he did have the law background.
21:43 Speaker 00 But just being a smart person, you know, doesn't mean that you can defend yourself. It doesn't mean you can perform open heart surgery. Cause you stayed at a Holiday Inn last night. It doesn't work that way.
21:58 Speaker 01 No, you gotta know a little bit more than just being smart.
22:02 Speaker 00 Alcala argued that there was only a six minute and 15 second window of opportunity when Robin could have been kidnapped. And he would prove he was at Knott's Berry Farm at that time. But he didn't make a significant attempt to dispute the other murder charges, only saying he couldn't remember killing any of the Los Angeles County women. I don't know how that goes over to the jury. I'm going to dispute and provide evidence that I couldn't have killed Robin. I don't know about these other ones. I just don't remember killing them at all.
22:39 Speaker 00 He got on the stand for five hours and, you know, Gibbs, he was asking himself questions and addressing himself as Mr. Alcala.
22:50 Speaker 01 So, uh, Mr. Alcala. Yes. It's so weird, right?
22:56 Speaker 00 Right. Do you, do you have to ask the questions down by the table and then run into the, the box real quick? Answer and then run back out. He told the jury that on June 20th, 1979, the day Robin disappeared, he went to Seal Beach to visit a friend. His friend wasn't there, so he went to a picture frame store and then went to Sunset Beach, where he took photos of a young woman roller skating. This woman was identified by investigators as Lori Wurts. After that, he went to Knott's Berry Farm. He explained that he could use the angle of the shadows in the photos to estimate the time.
23:38 Speaker 00 The prosecutor objected until Alcala told the judge that his calculations proved he was at the beach around 2:22 PM. This time was consistent with the prosecutor's theory of when Alcala approached Robin and her friend, after taking a picture of the roller skater. Alcala also argued that the gold earrings found in his storage locker were his, not Robin's. During his testimony, he showed the jury a clip of his appearance on the dating game, where he claimed the jury would see him wearing the earrings. He conceded that the video did little to help his case.
24:20 Speaker 00 The resolution was low, and it made it look as if he had one long earring on. Okay, so why are you showing it?
24:29 Speaker 01 Why would you even go down that path?
24:31 Speaker 00 If it doesn't show what you want it to. Alcala called Robin's mother, Mary Ann, come to the stand. He confronted her about how she brought a gun to court during the first trial, which she didn't deny. Mary Ann later told 48 Hours, "I was going to shoot him right between the eyes if I could have gotten a shot at him." But she felt Robin's presence in the courtroom, and she couldn't get her hand out of her purse. So, two things here, right? First of all, what's it like for the mother of a victim to be confronted on the stand by her daughter's alleged killer?
25:15 Speaker 00 That had to be just an absolute nightmare for her.
25:19 Speaker 01 I would think so, like bizarre, nightmarish. It's gonna be like a mix of emotions.
25:25 Speaker 00 Well, and she hates this guy, right? She even said and admitted that she brought a gun to the first trial, and she had thoughts and intentions of shooting this guy. So then my second question is, all right, what was the security like back then? Obviously, it couldn't have been too good. People are just able to smuggle in a gun in their purse.
25:52 Speaker 01 But I understand. I mean, I think I would want to do the same thing, right? You killed my child.
25:59 Speaker 00 I mean, who wouldn't want to pull a Samuel L. Jackson?
26:03 Speaker 01 Exactly.
26:04 Speaker 00 I hate those guys, and I hope they burn in hell.
26:07 Speaker 01 That's pretty good.
26:10 Speaker 00 I don't know if that's the exact quote, but you know, obviously he killed the two people that raped his daughter.
26:16 Speaker 01 Yeah.
26:17 Speaker 00 Because he felt they weren't going to get justice or, or whatever. I mean, as a parent, I don't know how that thought couldn't go through your mind. Now, most people are able to put it aside and say, well, that's not going to help the situation. First of all, I'm just going to end up in prison with this guy. You know, if he doesn't die.
26:39 Speaker 01 Yeah.
26:40 Speaker 00 My family's going to be wrecked even further. But you know, that thought and that inclination has to be there for many people. They just, most just don't act on it. Psychiatrist Richard Rappaport was the only defense witness paid for by Alcala. He testified that borderline personality disorder could explain Rodney's claims that he had no memory of committing the murders. Rodney Alcala was found guilty of all five murders on February 25th, 2010. And that doesn't surprise me, right? I mean, they had evidence against him. This guy's acting as his own attorney. He's got one defense witness.
27:24 Speaker 00 I just don't know how he thought it was going to go any other way. Now, there's a part of me that believes some of these guys, they know they're going to be convicted. And so they want to control as much of it as they can because they know they're about to lose all control. And maybe that's why they act as their own attorney. I don't know why.
27:51 Speaker 01 I mean, that definitely could be part of it.
27:53 Speaker 00 Cause obviously you have very little control once you get to prison.
27:56 Speaker 01 Now, does it also come into play that maybe they're filed some type of appeal saying they shouldn't have representing themselves?
28:05 Speaker 00 Ineffective assistance of counsel. I don't think you can, I don't think you can claim that once you represent yourself. I could be wrong about that. Tali Shapiro also got on the stand during the penalty phase and testified about the details of the day she was attacked. Although she couldn't remember the attack, she testified that it changed her life forever.
28:29 Speaker 01 It had to.
28:30 Speaker 00 Oh, absolutely. What she did remember was the fear she felt. When she got into Al Kala's car, she said, I remember wanting to jump out of the car, but I respected my elders. So I stayed. During cross-examination, Al Kala apologized to Tali, saying, I sincerely regret. I apologize for my despicable behavior. She didn't respond. I mean, how, how was she going to respond? Who is going to accept an apology from this monster?
29:02 Speaker 01 Yeah.
29:03 Speaker 00 After, you know, what he did.
29:05 Speaker 01 What are you gonna say? Oh, well, that's okay. I know you didn't really mean to do what you did. No. Like, you're a son of a bitch, and I hope you die.
29:16 Speaker 00 Die in hell. But, you know, does anybody not think he's just saying this for the court?
29:23 Speaker 01 Well, absolutely. That's what he's doing.
29:25 Speaker 00 I don't think he regrets it. I don't think he is sincere when he apologizes. Monique Coit also testified about Al Kala taking her to a mountainous area and asking her to pose for pictures before he knocked her unconscious. He beat, raped, and sodomized her. When she woke up, he was lying on the ground. She thought if she was kind to him, he would let her go. He agreed to drive her back to town where she was able to escape. And, you know, some of these are, you know, unbelievable stories. And I don't say unbelievable, like
30:05 Speaker 00 in a bad way, just the fact that he let her go. Or maybe he didn't let her go, but he did drive her back to town. Maybe she escaped before he was going to do something else. But you would think if he was going to kill her, he would have done it in this mountainous area where no one was around. So what was his thought process there?
30:31 Speaker 00 She did such a great job of convincing him, maybe that she could be trusted if he let her go, that she wouldn't tell on him.
30:40 Speaker 01 I think he liked the game a little bit, too. I think he wanted to see what she would try to do. I think he kind of liked to play into it a little bit and.
30:50 Speaker 00 And maybe that was part of the thrill for him.
30:52 Speaker 01 Yeah.
30:53 Speaker 00 We don't know.
30:54 Speaker 01 But luckily for her, she escaped.
30:56 Speaker 00 On cross-examination, Alcala asked if she remembered that he apologized in the car. She told him his apology was meaningless. And what apology wouldn't be meaningless when it comes after a beating, a rape, and being sodomized?
31:15 Speaker 01 What can you, hey, I'm really sorry for doing that. I had a really bad day and I took it out on you and I shouldn't have. No, that's not gonna.
31:24 Speaker 00 That's, it's not gonna fly with anyone.
31:26 Speaker 01 No.
31:27 Speaker 00 As part of his closing argument, Alcala told the jury, let me put the death penalty in perspective for you. If you desire to join in the killing of a human being, you and the families of the victims will have to wait at least 15 to 20 years while the case slowly churns through the appellate process. He played a song called Alice's Restaurant by Arlo Guthrie, in which the singer tells the psychiatrist he wants to kill. One part of the song says, I want to kill, I want to kill. I want to see blood and gore and guts and veins in my teeth. Eat dead burnt bodies. I mean, kill, kill, kill, kill. Seems like a strange song to play.
32:11 Speaker 01 Yeah.
32:12 Speaker 00 But I'm also not sure what the families are making of this closing argument that says, okay, you can put me to death, but it's not going to happen for 15 to 20 years. And I get that. That's, that's, that was a true thing, right? It does take a very long time to put someone to death. But if I'm a family member and I'm okay with the death penalty, I'm like, I'll wait.
32:37 Speaker 01 Yeah, exactly.
32:39 Speaker 00 If it takes 15, I'll wait, I'll be there. If it takes 20, I'll wait, I'll be there.
32:44 Speaker 01 At least we're good finality versus you being in prison maybe for 30 years.
32:52 Speaker 00 On March 9th, 2010, the jury sentenced Al Kalla to death for the third time. And that's one of the things about this case, Gibbs, is that, you know, it just, it took so long.
33:05 Speaker 01 Yeah, like I said, 2010.
33:07 Speaker 00 I mean, you're talking, what, 30 years, essentially, almost 30 years from when his first trial was and when these murders occurred for them to gain a third conviction. On March 11th, 2010, the Huntington Beach Police released over 100 photos from Al Kalla's storage locker. Detectives withheld about 900 photos because they were too sexually explicit. Others were cropped for release.
33:42 Speaker 01 Over 1,000 photos.
33:44 Speaker 00 And, and we've kind of mentioned it in the first two episodes, right? All of these photographs found is part of what makes so many people latch on to this case. Yes, the murders he committed were terrible. The things he did were terrible, but it's really the, what else did he do because of all these photographs? How many women could he have victimized and or killed?
34:11 Speaker 01 Yeah.
34:12 Speaker 00 Huntington Beach Police Captain Chuck Thomas said he didn't know why his predecessors didn't release the photos years ago. On March 30th, 2010, a judge formally sentenced Al Kalla to death. In April of that year, it was reported that investigators identified at least 21 women from the photos. None of them were missing persons or homicide victims. They still had over 100 women and two young men they needed to identify. At least six families said they believed they recognized loved ones who went missing and were never found, but none of the photos were definitively linked to a missing person case at that time.
34:57 Speaker 00 Leanne Ledham, a psychology professor and author, was watching CNN and saw a photo of herself on the news. Al Kala took her picture when she was 17 years old. He lived down the street from her with his mother and befriended her in June 1979. He gave her a ride to work and invited her to his mother's home to look at photos he'd taken of other teens. He also showed her photos of nude boys. He asked to photograph her at her parents' house. She recalled, "I was a 17-year-old girl." And I said, "Oh, a professional photographer wants to take my picture. Of course I'll do it." Al Kala bragged about
35:39 Speaker 00 being a member of Mensa and always wore a medallion around his neck that he said signified his membership.
35:47 Speaker 01 I hate fakers like that, you know?
35:50 Speaker 00 I think this does bring into question
35:54 Speaker 01 why he would act like he belongs to something that he did not belong to.
35:58 Speaker 00 No, what you really have been up to. Apparently, there is a precedent about people bragging about being a member of Mensa and doing horrific things. I'm not saying you've done horrific things. That's up for everybody else to interpret.
36:17 Speaker 01 I do need to find out about this medallion.
36:20 Speaker 00 Yeah.
36:20 Speaker 01 I mean, I should get a medallion if that's what they're giving away.
36:26 Speaker 00 Wouldn't you know if you were in Mensa?
36:28 Speaker 01 Well, I am. Maybe it got lost in the mail.
36:31 Speaker 00 Oh, I'm sure that's what happened.
36:32 Speaker 01 You know, that happens sometimes.
36:34 Speaker 00 I'm assuming he just bought a medallion with a big M on it and said, "Hey, this means I'm in Mensa." A neighbor saw Leanne getting out of Al Kala's car and told her parents, who told her not to see him again. The adults in the neighborhood knew. He had already been to prison for attacking a young girl.
36:54 Speaker 01 What a rep right there, you know? That's your rep in that neighborhood already.
36:58 Speaker 00 Yeah, this guy's been to prison. He has attacked a young girl. Don't be hanging out with him. But I want to go back to this woman. She was obviously a woman at the time. You're just watching the news and happen to see a photo of yourself. And I'm sure this story that went along with it detailed out Rodney Alcala and what he did and all these memories are flooding back about, oh yeah, he took my picture. I knew him. The thought is I could have been a victim.
37:32 Speaker 01 How lucky am I that I'm sitting here?
37:34 Speaker 00 Right. You have to be thinking about that.
37:39 Speaker 00 In 2010, the Seattle police named Alcala a person of interest in several unsolved murders. 20-year-old Sherri Ann Green was last seen in Waterville, Washington on September 14th, 1976, after she was released from the Douglas County Jail. A photograph found in the storage locker was shown to her family, but they confirmed it wasn't her. 13-year-old Antoinette Jean Whitaker was living in a foster home when she walked out with an unidentified man on the night of July 9th, 1977. A week later, her body was found in a vacant lot in Lake City, Seattle. She had been stabbed to death. She was fully dressed and propped
38:24 Speaker 00 up on her hands and knees. There was no evidence she was sexually assaulted. On February 17th, 1978, 17-year-old Joyce Francine Gaunt was found in a picnic area in Seaward Park, Seattle. She was nude and her skull had been crushed. She had been strangled and sexually assaulted. Joyce had been living in a group home on Capitol Hill when she was last seen leaving with an unidentified man on February 16th. So I get it, right? The Seattle police have these unsolved murders. I mean, not hard to think that there's a possibility that Rodney Alcala could be responsible.
39:05 Speaker 01 Sure. Some of the MOs match.
39:08 Speaker 00 Yeah. What, what he was known to have done. I mean, one girl's skull was crushed, strangled, sexually assaulted. He had done that. It was proven. Other cold cases were targeted for reinvestigation in California, New York, New Hampshire, and Arizona.
39:28 Speaker 00 On January 27, 2011, Alcala was indicted for the murders of Cornelia Crilly and Ellen Hoover in New York. The renewed interest in the New York cases was spurred by Alcala's latest trial in Orange County and by the creation of a new cold case unit in Manhattan. A law enforcement source told the LA Times, "When that trial happened, investigators said, "Let's see what it shows us that we can use in these cases. Patterns emerged from the California cases that informed the reinvestigation in New York." After the police made public the photos of young women in Alcala's storage locker,
40:11 Speaker 00 several came forward and claimed that a photographer named John Berger took their pictures in New York in the 70s.
40:19 Speaker 01 Well, we knew that was his alias.
40:21 Speaker 00 Yeah, he used John Berger with multiple different spellings. New York investigators were interested in Alcala. As early as 2003, detectives investigating the Crilly case flew to California to interview him and get a dental impression, which matched the bite mark on Cornelia Crilly's body. There was also a letter found underneath Cornelia's body. The print on the envelope was unmatched for many years, until Alcala's prints were entered into the FBI database. So it's kind of interesting, right, that they had this bite mark way back in 2003?
41:01 Speaker 01 Yeah.
41:02 Speaker 00 But he wasn't indicted until 2011. And I just wonder if they just thought, okay, that's not enough. We need a little bit more. You know, maybe it was the prints on the letter that kind of those two together sealed it for them?
41:19 Speaker 01 Pushed it where they could finally move forward with it.
41:22 Speaker 00 Yeah. In Ellen's case, investigators knew Alcala was using the alias John Berger. He was seen near the Rockefeller Estates where Ellen's body was found. Witnesses also saw someone who looked like Ellen, walking with a man who carried a camera back. In March 2011, investigators in Marin County, California, announced they were confident that Alcala was responsible for the October 9th, 1977 murder of 19-year-old Pamela Jean Lamson, who disappeared after making a trip to Fisherman's Wharf to meet a man who offered to photograph her. Pamela's body was found in Marin County, near a hiking trail.
42:06 Speaker 00 Charges were never filed due to a lack of fingerprints or usable DNA. And there again, right? This matches kind of Alcala's MO. Somebody wanted to photograph her. And after that, you know, she disappeared and was murdered.
42:27 Speaker 01 I mean, he checks the boxes on all this.
42:30 Speaker 00 Yeah, he absolutely does. But you know, if you've got no fingerprints, you've got no DNA, you've got no direct evidence. It's not enough just to say, well, this looks like Rodney, because it does. That that's not going to get a guilty verdict. On December 14th, 2012, Alcala pleaded guilty to the two murders in New York. On January 7th, 2013, he was sentenced to 25 years to life in prison for the New York murders. Alcala declined to address the court. And I'm thinking at that point, he's like, all right, I'm on death row. I'm just going to plead guilty. I'm not going to talk. I'm just going to be done with it.
43:12 Speaker 01 Yeah, maybe he's frustrated at this point. Maybe he's.
43:15 Speaker 00 You think he's frustrated about being on death row?
43:18 Speaker 01 Yeah.
43:18 Speaker 00 Probably. Maybe he's done with the circus.
43:21 Speaker 01 Yeah. This point's not serving his needs, I don't think.
43:25 Speaker 00 No, because he's not going to get out from under the death row thing. So why put up this big fight on these two murders that he's probably not going to, you know, get out from under either. But this wasn't the last time Rodney Alcala would face murder charges. Another case was linked to him after the release of the photos. Kathy Thornton spent 39 years trying to find her missing sister. 28-year-old Christine Thornton. She had never heard of Rodney Alcala. But in 2013, her son watched a 48 Hours Story on the killer that led him to their website. CBS had posted the pictures of the unidentified women. So Kathy looked through the images.
44:11 Speaker 00 One picture showed a woman in a yellow shirt on a motorcycle. She looked like Christine. When Kathy analyzed the photo further, she could see that the woman's pinky toe had the same distinctive curve to it.
44:26 Speaker 01 Wow. I mean, that's some detail.
44:28 Speaker 00 Yeah, and I think it's, it's almost the, the chills, the hair standing up on the back of your neck when you kind of realize that the woman in this picture, I believe, is my sister.
44:43 Speaker 01 Yeah.
44:44 Speaker 00 So she Googled Rodney Alcala's name and came to believe her sister had traveled with a serial killer. Christine was originally from Texas, but she was traveling west with her boyfriend. In the spring of 1977, she told her family she was heading to Montana to pan for gold. She also told her mother she was pregnant. This was the last time her family heard from her. Kathy feared something terrible had happened. Christine and her boyfriend had a turbulent relationship. He was abusive and the family thought he was involved in her disappearance. Kathy began trying to track Christine's whereabouts. She called police departments, federal agencies and hospitals, but no one had any record
45:29 Speaker 00 of Christine. So Kathy submitted her DNA to a national database of missing persons so it could be matched in the future. Meanwhile, Wyoming detective Jeff Sheeman was working on a cold case of an unidentified female found in a desolate area. Area of Granger in 1982, the remains were skeletal and had been there for five or six years. The woman's clothing was found next to her bones, which had been scattered by animals. She was believed to be 25 to 35 years old and was approximately six months pregnant when she died. Her skull was intact. So the state crime lab brought in an artist to recreate what she
46:13 Speaker 00 looked like. And this is fascinating to me as well. Right? We talked about genetic genealogy in our Patreon episode. This recreation of a person's face based on their skull.
46:27 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's amazing.
46:28 Speaker 00 If you've ever seen it where they put like little pins in there and then they start to, you know, shape the face. It's, it's kind of scary sometimes how much it looks like the real person. Once they figure out who it is.
46:44 Speaker 01 It really is. I've seen some videos of it, but at last couple of crime cons, they've had somebody there that does that. And every day they progress it further and further. And then they're, they have the face and you're like, wow, that's amazing.
47:00 Speaker 00 It is amazing work. The crime lab was able to save skin tissues and bone fragments, which were submitted for DNA processing. In 2015, Detective Sheeman learned there was a match between Kathy Thornton and the bones. Authorities learned that Christine broke up with her boyfriend in the summer of 1977, and she met Rodney Alcala afterwards. They traveled to Granger together where she was killed. Kathy told 48 Hours, when you see that photo, there's no doubt that she was having fun. I think she just had no clue what he was thinking, what he was capable of doing. So I think you're happy up until the point where you're not. And
47:45 Speaker 00 at that point, there was no escape. Where would she go? The spot where the photo was taken and the location where Christine's remains were found were likely within a few Yards of each other, leading authorities to suspect Christine was killed shortly after the photo was taken. And I just wonder, Gibbs, how much of that, you know, if it happened that way, was part of the, the trophy. And this picture was taken right before I killed this woman.
48:18 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think that's how he liked it.
48:20 Speaker 00 And so every time I pull this picture out and I look at it, I'm kind of replaying what happened right after the picture was taken.
48:30 Speaker 01 Probably gave him some weird adrenaline rush slash.
48:34 Speaker 00 Sexual. Yeah, we don't know what goes on with these guys, but before he would indict Alcala for the murder, prosecutor Daniel Eras Musby wanted to interview him. He flew to California in September 2016. By this time, Alcala was in poor health and had been moved from San Quentin to a medical unit outside of Fresno. Security staff said he had borderline dementia. Detective Jeff Sheeman was also present during the meeting. He recalled how they pulled out photos of the crime scene. And Alcala said, I know that area. That's my area.
49:15 Speaker 01 Wow.
49:16 Speaker 00 That's a little scary.
49:17 Speaker 01 It is.
49:18 Speaker 00 And when he saw Christine's photo, according to Eras Musby, and it almost clicked like that with him. And you could almost tell that he was reliving that day. Alcala placed a photo on his lap and traced over Christine's image for several minutes. They thought he might be willing to talk, but he denied killing Christine and said she was alive when he left her there. On September 20th, 2016, Alcala was charged with the Wyoming murder, but he wouldn't be extradited to Wyoming due to his poor health. The prosecutor said in the press release following the decision not to extradite Al
49:59 Speaker 00 Kala, "The fact that this case will not be proven in court does nothing to dissuade me from knowing that Al Kala murdered Ms. Thornton." Rodney Al Kala died of natural causes at 1:43 a.m. on July 24th, 2021, at a hospital in Kings County. He was 77 years old. After his death, 68-year-old Morgan Rowan contacted former LAPD Detective Steve Hodel. She reported that she was attacked by Rodney in July 1968, when she was 16 years old and living in Hollywood, which would make her the earliest-known victim.
50:40 Speaker 00 Al Kala approached her at a teen nightclub on the Sunset Strip. She entered his car believing he was going to take her to IHOP. Instead, he drove her to his apartment a few blocks away, telling her he was having a party. He dragged her into his bedroom, barred the door, then beat and raped her. She was rescued by friends and acquaintances who broke into the room through the window. Al Kala fled, and her friends took her away. So, I mean, you know, if you're talking about his first victim, it sounds to me, Gibbs, like she was saved by her friend.
51:20 Speaker 01 Sure.
51:21 Speaker 00 Because what would have happened had they not broken in? It's very likely he would have killed her.
51:28 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean, she still had to go through what she went through, which was horrific, but he didn't kill her.
51:33 Speaker 00 Hey, you know, as we wrap this one up, it's been a three-parter, had to be, because there's so much information on Rodney Al Kala. Authorities believe there are many victims that have yet to be identified. Some of them could be among the photos found in the storage locker. It is thought by some that Rodney Al Kala could be involved in up to 130 murders across the country.
52:02 Speaker 01 That wouldn't surprise me.
52:03 Speaker 00 No, it wouldn't surprise me either. It would make him one of the most prolific serial killers. But I mean, I'm sure that that thought is based on the the number of photographs. Many of the people in them, you know, have not been identified. I'm sure he didn't kill everyone he took a picture of.
52:27 Speaker 01 No, I mean, hell, he had almost 1,000 pictures.
52:31 Speaker 00 Yeah, about 1,000, but I'm sure he killed a lot more than eight people.
52:36 Speaker 01 Sure he did.
52:36 Speaker 00 I am certain of that.
52:38 Speaker 01 I am too.
52:39 Speaker 00 And I have a feeling as time goes on, they'll figure out.
52:44 Speaker 01 Yeah.
52:44 Speaker 00 Who some of these people are. Some of them will wind up being alive and well, and maybe have a scary story to tell about Rodney. Or some will be found to be missing. And chances are, those people were most likely victims of Rodney Alcala.
53:06 Speaker 01 Yeah.
53:07 Speaker 00 I think, you know, what we don't know yet is just what is the real number?
53:11 Speaker 01 I just, you know, I dislike all of these killers, but I really just dislike how he he toyed with the victims. You know, the to bring them to the edge of death and then bring them back so he could just do it again.
53:26 Speaker 00 Yeah, he was he was sadistic in the way that, you know, he killed people. He he tortured them before death. He got his jollies off of strangling people. And it's almost like, you know, what you said, when he brought them back, he resuscitated them and then strangled them again. Why? Because he was still getting his kicks out of it.
53:51 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's how he got his rocks off.
53:53 Speaker 00 Yeah, I think the other part of this case is, you know, all these photos, these unidentified people. That's sad because I think there are, you know, a lot of victims who have family out there who just have no idea what happened to them.
54:10 Speaker 01 Yeah.
54:11 Speaker 00 And my bet is a lot of them ended up dead at the hands of Rodney Alcala.
54:17 Speaker 01 I think you're right.
54:18 Speaker 00 But that's it for our three-part series on Rodney Alcala. He's a monster for sure. He goes down as, as one of the more vicious serial killers. He could go down as one of the more prolific serial killers if the police actually knew his true number of victims.
54:38 Speaker 01 Right.
54:39 Speaker 00 I don't know if we'll ever know, but I'm sure we'll find out more throughout the years. But we got a voicemail. You want to check that out?
54:47 Speaker 01 Let's hear it.
54:48 Speaker 02 Hi, Mike and Gibby. This is Jeanette from Washington State. And I've been listening to the Rodney Ocala, um, episodes. And you know what? When I was about 13 or 14, back in the early seventies, there was a guy who asked me and my two friends if we wanted to have our pictures taken. And we lived in the Seattle area. Now, it seems like that might be a little bit too early to be Rodney Ocala, but I am
55:28 Speaker 02 sure glad that even though we had told him we did, we changed our minds and didn't come back the next day. So I am sure glad we kept our head on the swivel. Have a good night. Bye.
55:44 Speaker 01 Kind of a scary thought.
55:46 Speaker 00 Yeah, it's a very scary thought. And, you know, I don't know if it was too early to be Rodney. You know, we just talked about this person coming forward and saying that she was attacked by Rodney Alcala in July, 1968. Now that was out in Hollywood, but a few years later, could he have been in Seattle? Yeah.
56:12 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
56:12 Speaker 00 Absolutely. So it's, it's scary to think you possibly had a brush that close with a really nasty serial killer.
56:24 Speaker 01 Yeah.
56:25 Speaker 00 But that's it for another episode of True Crime All The Time. So for Mike.
56:31 Speaker 01 And Gibby.
56:31 Speaker 00 Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.
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