Pod Insights True Crime All The Time The McStay Family Murders About this episode Joseph McStay, his wife Summer, and their two young sons went missing in February 2010. Their bodies were found in the California desert three years later. Initially, it was believed that the family had decided to travel to Mexico, but authorities discovered evidence suggesting that someone close to Joseph was involved in their murders.
Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the murders of the McStay family. The family of four was thriving in California at the time that they went missing. Several things led the authorities to believe they had walked across the border into Mexico. However, the evidence began to lead authorities to a close friend and business associate of Josephs named Chase Merritt. But Merritt wasn't the only one with a motive and who had evidence pointing in their direction.
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1:47 Speaker 00 Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode 449 of the True Crime All the Time Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson, and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?
1:58 Speaker 01 I'm doing good. How about you?
2:00 Speaker 00 I'm doing great. You and I just did our weekly Patreon kind of mini-soad thing and, you know, talked about what we were watching, what's going on in our lives, but also talked about the return of Mindhunter.
2:15 Speaker 01 Yes, we did.
2:16 Speaker 00 Which is a very exciting thing.
2:19 Speaker 01 I can't wait to be in that episode.
2:21 Speaker 00 As a perpetrator.
2:23 Speaker 01 As a perpetrator.
2:27 Speaker 01 I'll be the guy in the mask, so you might not recognize me.
2:30 Speaker 00 Uh huh.
2:31 Speaker 01 And they're also changing my voice up a little bit, so.
2:33 Speaker 00 Might be hard.
2:34 Speaker 01 Hard to realize it's actually me.
2:36 Speaker 00 Yeah, but it is you.
2:37 Speaker 01 Yes.
2:38 Speaker 00 Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Amber Hoff jump out at our highest level.
2:43 Speaker 01 The Hoff, you remember the Hoff?
2:45 Speaker 00 You mean from Baywatch?
2:47 Speaker 01 Eating the cheeseburger off the floor?
2:49 Speaker 00 Oh, you're talking about drunk, uh, cell phone video Hoff? Oh yeah, that was something else, man.
2:58 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:58 Speaker 00 Was he also like bad mouthing his daughter or was that Baldwin?
3:03 Speaker 01 I think it was Baldwin. Yeah.
3:04 Speaker 00 Some of these guys, uh, let themselves get videotaped in very compromising situations.
3:11 Speaker 01 Yeah, exactly. But thank you, Amber.
3:13 Speaker 00 Yeah, we had Kristen Walker.
3:15 Speaker 01 Hey, there's the Texas Walker.
3:17 Speaker 00 Margaret Poroski.
3:19 Speaker 01 What's up, Poroski?
3:20 Speaker 00 Moni Hill jumped out at our highest level.
3:23 Speaker 01 It's like Billy Idol, moany, moany.
3:24 Speaker 00 Yeah.
3:25 Speaker 01 Yeah.
3:25 Speaker 00 Amber Ryan.
3:26 Speaker 01 Hey, Amber.
3:27 Speaker 00 Padre Paul Ballin.
3:30 Speaker 01 Gotta be ballin'.
3:31 Speaker 00 Tamara Moore.
3:34 Speaker 00 Did she say you gotta be ballin'?
3:35 Speaker 01 I don't know why that came out that way. He made me laugh.
3:38 Speaker 00 Free ballin'.
3:40 Speaker 01 Hey, Tamara.
3:42 Speaker 00 And last but not least, Noah.
3:44 Speaker 01 Hey, Noah.
3:44 Speaker 00 And then if we go back into the vault. This week, we selected Nicole Dutcher.
3:50 Speaker 01 Hey, Nicole.
3:51 Speaker 00 Yeah, so we appreciate all the support we get. Gibbs, we have a brand new episode out right now on True Crime All the Time Unsolved. We're talking about Matt Flores. He was murdered in the parking lot of his workplace on what appeared to be a normal morning in 1994. But over three decades have passed and investigators still have not identified a suspect. They're still struggling with even a potential motive.
4:20 Speaker 01 Yeah, that makes it really hard to solve a case.
4:21 Speaker 00 Yeah, so we'll go through all the details. All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All the Time?
4:28 Speaker 01 That I am.
4:29 Speaker 00 We're talking about a fairly big case here.
4:32 Speaker 01 We are.
4:33 Speaker 00 That a lot of people have kept a close eye on over the years. It's the murders of the McStay family. Joseph McStay, his wife Summer and their two young sons went missing in February 2010. Their bodies were found in the California desert. Three years later, at first, it was thought that the family decided to travel to Mexico. But authorities found evidence pointing to someone close to Joseph. The McStay family consisted of 40 year old Joseph, 43 year old Summer, and their two boys, four year old Gianni and three year old Joseph Jr. In the winter of 2009, the family moved to Fallbrook, California.
5:19 Speaker 00 Soon after they moved, they started renovating the house and Summer adopted a puppy.
5:26 Speaker 01 Well, who doesn't love a puppy?
5:27 Speaker 00 If you don't, there's something wrong with your wiring. I gotta be honest because puppies are delightful. I find myself sometimes losing two or three hours just watching puppy or dog videos on YouTube.
5:44 Speaker 01 Puppies are only puppies and babies are the only thing that you're okay when they pee on you or around you.
5:54 Speaker 00 Yeah, cuz grownups and things like that doesn't go over so well.
6:00 Speaker 01 It does not.
6:01 Speaker 00 As you've learned at a number of all night parties. People do not like to be urinated on.
6:08 Speaker 01 Excuse me, sorry.
6:10 Speaker 00 Both Summer and Joseph had good relationships with their respective families. Joseph talked to his brother and his parents several times a week. He was also close with his 14 year old son from his first marriage.
6:25 Speaker 01 Which sounds strange, right? You would just assume that you would be close to your 14 year old son. But I know that there's a lot of times that just doesn't happen.
6:36 Speaker 00 Yeah, you're right. I mean, I think most people want to stay close, but it could be a very contentious divorce. Things can get nasty. Things can be said about both sides. You know, also. Your ex-wife might move to a different state.
6:55 Speaker 01 Makes it tough to have a good relationship if that happens.
6:58 Speaker 00 Making it harder. Summer was a stay-at-home mom who was described as fiercely protective of her sons. She was also in regular contact with her family.
7:08 Speaker 01 Maybe like a super helicopter mom?
7:11 Speaker 00 Yeah, I don't know if fiercely protective and helicopter mom are synonymous. You know, to me, helicopter mom is you don't let them do anything on their own kind of deal. Fiercely protective just means you better not mess with my kids.
7:29 Speaker 01 Or I'll kick the shit out of you.
7:30 Speaker 00 Yeah, so I don't know. You could take that a couple of different ways. I think for me, the important takeaway here is that both Joseph and Summer, you know, they had good relationships with their families. They were in regular contact with those families. So that's going to come into play, right? When someone goes missing.
7:53 Speaker 01 I just had a weird vision in my head of a movie where, um, I can't remember the name of the movie.
8:00 Speaker 00 Shocker.
8:02 Speaker 01 It's got Paul.
8:03 Speaker 00 Gibby alert.
8:04 Speaker 01 It's got Paul Rudd in it and like him and his wife are getting ready to have their 40th birthday party.
8:10 Speaker 00 Is it called This Is Forty?
8:12 Speaker 01 That's it.
8:13 Speaker 00 With Paul Rudd and I don't remember her name, but she was in Forty Year Old Virgin.
8:18 Speaker 01 Yeah, she's actually married to the director or whatever. Yeah. And there was like some boy picking on her daughter and she went to the school and got in his face and like just tore into him. He started crying. That's what just kind of ran through my head.
8:34 Speaker 00 Fiercely protective.
8:36 Speaker 01 Yes.
8:37 Speaker 00 Joseph owned a successful decorative waterfall business called Earth Inspired Products. In early 2010, the family was still working on renovating their home and overall it seemed like they had a normal, happy life. The family celebrated Joseph Jr.'s third birthday on January 31st. Days later, on February 4th, 2010, the entire mixed-day family disappeared without a trace. On the morning of February 4th, Summer talked to her sister who had recently had a baby and promised to come up for a visit soon. That afternoon, she used her card to buy baby clothes.
9:19 Speaker 00 Summer's sister Tracy Russell recalled that Summer was preoccupied with the home renovation. She and Joseph had already put $30,000 down on their home and she just spent $4,000 on new floor.
9:35 Speaker 01 Well, renovating a home is expensive.
9:36 Speaker 00 And you would know because you just finished up renovating one.
9:40 Speaker 01 I did.
9:41 Speaker 00 And it was a real pain in the you-know-what.
9:43 Speaker 01 Yeah, I'm still feeling the burn.
9:45 Speaker 00 And not to mention the fact that you actually had to dole out money, which because it wasn't all at one time, it was in drips and drabs, I don't know how you survived it.
9:56 Speaker 01 I barely survived, but I made it.
9:59 Speaker 00 Summer had a friend come over to help paint on February 3rd. When he left, they agreed he would come back on Saturday, February 6th, which Summer confirmed over text. Joseph spoke to his father on the phone, but said he was in a hurry because he had to go to a lunch meeting. Joseph and Summer texted each other around 5:00 PM. At 8:29 PM, Joseph's phone called his business associate, Charles Chase Merritt, in Rancho Cucamonga, which is one of the more fun cities to say.
10:35 Speaker 01 It is. You just like saying Cucamonga.
10:37 Speaker 00 I do. Merritt said he didn't answer the call because he was watching a movie and this was Joseph's last known call.
10:47 Speaker 01 Huh, somebody else that doesn't answer a call from their partner when they call because they're watching a movie and it's me using my quotation thing in the air.
10:57 Speaker 00 Quotation thing, like air quotes?
11:00 Speaker 01 Yeah.
11:01 Speaker 00 So you do not believe me when I say I'm watching a movie?
11:04 Speaker 01 I do not.
11:05 Speaker 00 Okay. Joseph and Chase met through Joseph's business. Chase was a fabricator and Joseph worked with him to expand the custom side of the business. Chase did the welding and metalwork for the fountains and Joseph was the primary businessman. What started as a business relationship soon turned into a close friendship. Joseph and Chase played paintball together and had dinner together a few nights each week. So obviously, you know, this information comes out right after the family goes missing, but it's all important to kind of try to establish timelines, not to mention the fact
11:46 Speaker 00 that, okay, some of this is evidence of planning for the future, right? This guy comes over to help paint, he's going to come back later on, on another day. And to me, all of that goes to, well, did this family just up and voluntarily leave? Or did something happen to them? On February 10th, 2010, Dan Kavanaugh, another associate who ran the website for Joseph's business, called the San Diego County Sheriff's Department because he hadn't been able to reach Joseph for several days, which was highly unusual.
12:28 Speaker 00 Sheriff's deputies conducted a welfare check, but they didn't enter the home because there were no signs of foul play. On February 13th, Joseph's brother, Michael McStay, went to the home and entered through an open window to check the house. The family wasn't home, but their two dogs had been left in the backyard for days. There was a banana and a carton of eggs on the kitchen counter, both of which had gone bad, and bowls of popcorn in front of the TV. It looked as if the boys were watching TV and Summer or Joseph were going to cook eggs when they suddenly left the house.
13:09 Speaker 01 That's gotta be a spooky feeling when you see that.
13:13 Speaker 00 Well, to walk through the house and see these types of things.
13:17 Speaker 01 Yeah.
13:18 Speaker 00 Now, you know, the eggs, the bananas, the bowls of popcorn, yeah, they, they jump out at me as, as a little strange, but what really hits me is leaving the dogs alone in the backyard.
13:32 Speaker 01 I mean, it feels like they had to leave quickly. Why else would you leave the dogs behind?
13:37 Speaker 00 Well, and quickly, but then it speaks to, was it voluntary? Because let's face it, most people love their dogs as much as they love, you know, other people.
13:53 Speaker 01 If not more.
13:54 Speaker 00 If not more. Very few dog owners would just abandon their dogs if they had any choice in the matter.
14:04 Speaker 00 There were paint cans and brushes in the living room. Most of their furniture was in storage and they appeared to be living out of suitcases due to the renovation, which as you have talked about before, it's kind of a really rough period.
14:20 Speaker 01 It is. It really is.
14:22 Speaker 00 You don't have access to all your stuff. You're maybe living in one room while another room gets done. It's, it's kind of tough.
14:32 Speaker 01 So I get the whole living out of a suitcase situation.
14:36 Speaker 00 On February 15th, 2010, family members reported the McStays missing. They knew that while Joseph and Summer had occasionally gone away for a long weekend without telling anyone, they wouldn't leave home long-term without notice. And again, all of this goes back to, you know, they were in regular contact with their family. We talked about the dogs and stuff. Yeah. Could you just spur of the moment say, hey, we're going to take off for a weekend and not really call everyone you know and your family? Sure. A lot of people do that.
15:13 Speaker 00 Do most people go off for an extended period of time and not let anyone in their family on both sides, when both of them are close to their family, know about it?
15:28 Speaker 01 No.
15:28 Speaker 00 Oh yeah. I would say by and large, the answer is no. The neighbor who met Michael McStay at the house, went door to door to speak to neighbors, no one had seen the family in over a week. Neighbors were getting worried about the dogs and they had started feeding them. The family's truck was parked in the driveway, but their Izuzu trooper was missing. Investigators obtained critical surveillance footage from a neighbor's camera. At 7:47 PM on February 4th, the camera captured the family's vehicle, leaving the cul-de-sac, but the footage didn't show who was driving. Their car was found within hours.
16:10 Speaker 00 On February 8th, the vehicle was found in a parking lot near San Ysidro. It was an hour's drive from the McStay home and the parking lot was a short walk from a pedestrian crossing into Mexico.
16:25 Speaker 01 So maybe a better lead now.
16:27 Speaker 00 Well, it's a lead for sure, but I mean, I think with this information, you know, what would be the first thing that maybe police might think happened?
16:38 Speaker 01 That the family drove and parked and decided to walk into Mexico.
16:42 Speaker 00 Yeah. I mean, I, I think that's a very natural conclusion, at least in the beginning. Two security guards first noticed the vehicle in the parking lot shortly after dark on February 8th. Because the hood was cold, they concluded it arrived around 5:00 PM. Security called a tow truck when the car was still there at 11:00 PM. According to LA Times, there were car seats and toys in the back of the vehicle. The fingerprints all matched the missing family. And I think that alone, you know, that kind of leans towards them parking and then walking into Mexico.
17:24 Speaker 01 Yeah.
17:25 Speaker 00 Now, obviously we know if there was foul play involved, somebody could have used gloves. Right? They're for not leaving any prints behind. Lieutenant Dennis Brugos told the media on February 18th, as quoted by NBC San Diego. At this point, we haven't found anything that would suggest that they would have any problems with anyone. Or there was any involvement in narcotics trafficking or anything of that nature. That would really point us in any particular direction. Authorities searched the McStay home on February 19th. There were no signs of forced entry or violence, but it did seem like they left the home quickly.
18:11 Speaker 00 And you pointed that out earlier, you know, eggs left out.
18:16 Speaker 00 Bowls of popcorn in front of the TV. It doesn't take that long to put eggs up.
18:22 Speaker 01 No, it doesn't.
18:23 Speaker 00 So even if you all of a sudden need to go somewhere, that's about a 30 second interaction to put those eggs up.
18:34 Speaker 01 And I was thinking about the dogs too, right? If you were going to leave the dogs because you had no choice, wouldn't you like put some bowls of water and food and, you know, all that type of stuff just so that you didn't have to worry about the dogs, while you were away.
18:52 Speaker 00 Or just text the neighbor.
18:53 Speaker 01 Yeah.
18:54 Speaker 00 And say, hey, we have got to run out. We have an emergency. Can you please come over and feed the dog?
19:00 Speaker 01 Exactly.
19:01 Speaker 00 And most people would have no problem doing that. There was also no suspicious activity on the couple's bank accounts and credit cards. On February 22nd, authorities said they were baffled by the family's disappearance. Lieutenant Brugo said, quite frankly, I've never seen a case like this before. On February 23rd, San Diego County investigators asked Interpol to be on the lookout for the family who could possibly be in Mexico. On the 25th, officials distributed flyers and asked Mexican authorities to search airports, bus stations, and other travel hubs.
19:44 Speaker 00 On March 5th, 2010, authorities released a video showing images of four people who could possibly be the McStays walking into Mexico through a border gate. The video was dated February 8th around 7:00 PM, the same day their vehicle was found. In the bottom left corner of the video, a man can be seen holding a child's hand. Behind him is a woman holding another child's hand. And some family members said Summer owned a white jacket, similar to the one the woman was wearing in the video, but others weren't sure because of the poor quality of the footage.
20:24 Speaker 00 Mike McStay explained, per NBC San Diego, it's very grainy, overshadowed. There's no definition to shape. So it doesn't sound like the video quality was very good at all.
20:36 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean, if it's grainy and stuff, how can you really determine who it is? But if it was them, what are they doing in Mexico?
20:43 Speaker 00 Good question. Now, could they just want to go sightsee in Mexico? Possibly. But you couple that with the way that they left the house, the way they left their dogs behind. That's where it doesn't really add up.
21:00 Speaker 01 Right.
21:01 Speaker 00 Not to mention the fact that they haven't told anyone, friends, family.
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23:55 Speaker 00 One search on the computer specifically asked, what documents do children need for traveling to Mexico?
24:03 Speaker 01 You know, I didn't realize how many people will actually walk over to Mexico. So I, until I started watching that series Contraband. And you see all these people walking back and forth between, you know, the United States and Mexico, some going over there for prescriptions and medication and things or procedures, things like that.
24:25 Speaker 00 Now things may be more nefarious. Have you not seen No Country For Old Men?
24:29 Speaker 01 I did see that.
24:31 Speaker 00 Where he walks back and forth to Mexico. But this search on the computer, right? This is in January before they go missing. I think it just kind of feeds in to that initial thought that for whatever reason, they decided to up and go to Mexico.
24:53 Speaker 01 It's just a strange way of how they did it.
24:56 Speaker 00 Lieutenant Dennis Brugo said about the January 28 searches, "It's significant because it shows us at least there was some sort of planning, perhaps for going into Mexico, other than it was out of character for this family to pick up and leave in the middle of home renovation and leaving perishable food out. There was nothing that pointed to criminal involvement in this case." And I think that's a very interesting statement. All right, it does seem as though there was some pre-planning about going to Mexico. Now, like you said, the way they went about it, very strange.
25:35 Speaker 01 Yeah.
25:36 Speaker 00 But they don't have any evidence of any type of crime whatsoever. Right? We mentioned it, no forced entry. I'm assuming there was no blood spatter in the house, right? That would have been kind of one of the main things pointed out. So, right now, it's just a real big mystery as to what happened to the McStay family. The FBI joined the search on April 2nd, 2010. On May 13th, investigators traveled to El Rosario, Baja, California, after a waiter at a local restaurant described seeing a little boy with a birthmark on his forehead, similar to Joseph Jr.
26:20 Speaker 00 This tip was given to authorities by Michael McStay. According to the San Diego Union Tribune, "A family friend who traveled to Baja to distribute flyers went into a restaurant where waiters said they recognized the family." On June 19th, the case was featured on America's Most Wanted. And we've talked about, especially in many of our unsolved cases, what a big boon that, that was. If you could get a case featured on America's Most Wanted, you know, some of the unsolved mysteries, some of the big shows of the time.
26:59 Speaker 01 Yeah.
27:00 Speaker 00 That was a big deal.
27:01 Speaker 01 It put you in front of a lot of people.
27:03 Speaker 00 Yeah, a lot of eyes watched America's Most Wanted back in the day. In November 2010, Joseph's father, Patrick McStay, who had been combing through Joseph's emails for leads, informed detectives of suspicious activity by his business partner, Chase Merritt. This lead turned into a dead end. Patrick also discovered that Summer ordered a Spanish language program a few months before the disappearance.
27:34 Speaker 01 So, learning Spanish.
27:36 Speaker 00 Parked near the border.
27:38 Speaker 01 Maybe there's something there.
27:39 Speaker 00 Looks like they walked into Mexico. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of things pointing to, you know, that being the case. Now, I think what starts to break that down is no activity in a person's bank account. I get it, maybe your dollar goes a lot further in Mexico, but at some point, you're probably going to need to withdraw money.
28:05 Speaker 01 Yeah, and you would think that either you made a big withdrawal before you went or while you were over there, but their accounts aren't showing that.
28:14 Speaker 00 Yeah, all of which would be easy to verify. Unfortunately, the McStay case went cold with no evidence leading to the family's whereabouts. Three years after they went missing in April 2013, the San Diego Sheriff's Department announced they had reached the consensus that the family moved to Mexico of their own free will. And I'll be honest with you, Gibbs, with everything that we've talked about, that does seem to be the most likely scenario with the facts that we have.
28:47 Speaker 01 But if that's the case, why would you move without telling the family?
28:51 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, that is a big question. That plus not accessing any of your money. Because here's the thing, as far as anybody knows, it's not like they're trying to run away from something criminal. So what's the harm in accessing your bank account and letting the authorities know that, well, you're in somewhere in Mexico? You're not wanted.
29:17 Speaker 01 And why wouldn't you place your dog somewhere?
29:19 Speaker 00 Right, all of those things are the against voluntarily going to Mexico. They're in that side. Later that year, on November 11, 2013, a motorcyclist riding trails in the Mojave Desert near Victorville, California, discovered a small human skull that appeared to belong to a child. Investigators found two graves containing multiple human remains. The remains were found 50 yards from the nearest road. They were only buried a foot or two deep and were primarily intact. A three pound sledgehammer was also found at the site.
30:02 Speaker 00 Now you and I talk about everyday people stumbling across dead bodies, remains, things like that. We talk about it all the time. It's not going to be a good day, right? When you find something like that. But finding a skull that you can so easily tell belongs to a small child. That has to hit very hard.
30:26 Speaker 01 Sure, not going to be easy.
30:29 Speaker 00 On November 15, authorities announced that Summer and Joseph McStay were identified through dental records and the other remains were believed to be their children. The cause of death was blunt force trauma. The family was found about 100 miles from their home. And then later that month, the California Department of Justice DNA lab confirmed that the other two victims were four year old Gianni and three year old Joseph Jr.
30:59 Speaker 01 Tragic news for sure.
31:01 Speaker 00 Yeah, tragic for everyone involved, friends, family. You know, I'm sure there were varying opinions on what was going on. Did they really leave and go to Mexico without telling any of us? But now this kind of proves, right? That they didn't. They met with foul play. After the bodies were found, Chase Merritt did an interview with the Daily Mail. He claimed he didn't know anything that could help solve the case and said he was questioned by the police. He told the paper, he decided to speak out because he wanted to find the killer, saying, now things have changed. It's not about finding
31:44 Speaker 00 them. It's about finding the people who did this. And if anything I say can help jog someone's memory, or offer some clue, then I'll be happy. Chase said he spent over an hour with Joseph on the day he went missing, and was the last person Joseph called. He also claimed he was the first one who went to the McStay home, realized the family was missing, and helped relatives call the police. He told the detective from the beginning, that Joseph would not have left without telling him. Joseph was his best friend, and they told each other everything. Chase explained that he didn't believe Joseph would
32:24 Speaker 00 take his children to Mexico, and the man in the border crossing footage was not him, because Joseph had a very particular walk. It sounds strange, but he moved like a duck, and that man didn't. There is absolutely no possibility that was him.
32:42 Speaker 01 I mean, people have a specific walk.
32:45 Speaker 00 A gait, yeah, sometimes. Now, moving like a duck is not the most flattering of descriptions.
32:54 Speaker 01 It's not.
32:55 Speaker 00 It's like you're waddling.
32:57 Speaker 01 But in this case, it helps if you believe what he's saying, because at that point, you're saying, well, then that's not who crossed over. That person was not Joseph and his family.
33:10 Speaker 00 Joseph used to regularly go to Mexico for surfing trips, but he stopped a few years earlier because he felt it was dangerous to go. Chase also said, and any suggestion, he was involved with the cartels is nonsense. Joseph was the most honest person I had ever met. Crossed his I's and crossed his T's. He wouldn't even litter, let alone get involved in anything more serious. Even the thought of being involved in drugs would have sent him into a fit of paranoia. There's no way he would have been caught up in crime. He was just not that kind of person.
33:49 Speaker 01 Now, see, that's something I could say of you.
33:52 Speaker 00 Yeah, I, you know, first of all, I have no desire to commit a crime. And then secondly, that would involve most likely leaving my house. A heck of a lot of effort, just something I'm really not interested in.
34:06 Speaker 01 You are not.
34:08 Speaker 00 I got my hands full with this podcast. At the time of the disappearance, their business was doing better than ever. And they had just landed a lucrative contract in Saudi Arabia. They had lunch in Rancho Cucamonga. On February 4th, during their meeting, they talked about the Saudi Arabia contract. Joseph seemed excited. Chase spoke to Joseph on the phone two or three times. While Joseph drove back to Fallbrook, they spoke for the last time around 6:00 PM. Joseph did call Chase at 8:28, but he was watching a movie with his girlfriend. So he didn't answer. Chase explained, when you talk to Joseph, it takes about half an hour. So I thought I'd catch up with him in the morning.
34:53 Speaker 00 I didn't answer that call and I regret it to this day. He called Joseph several times a day over the next three or four days and couldn't get ahold of him. This was highly unusual because they normally talked six to eight times a day.
35:08 Speaker 01 Oh, man, that would never happen with us.
35:11 Speaker 00 No, first of all, once a day is pushing it. Twice a week is a better algorithm.
35:18 Speaker 01 Yeah.
35:19 Speaker 00 For me, on the fourth day, Chase drove to the house, stopping to talk to Joseph's mother on the way. She hadn't heard from him either. And she called Michael, Joseph's brother, and suggested he meet him at the house. Chase said he drove to the house and Michael didn't call him that day. He found the dogs in the backyard and gave them food and water. He opened up a shed in the backyard for the dogs because it was cold and wet. On the way home, he stopped again at Joseph's mother's house and told her to get Michael out there. And there was one thing that really jumped out at me about this. Your brother is missing, right? Joseph's missing.
36:03 Speaker 00 Your mom calls you and says, hey, can you get out and meet this guy at Joseph's house? I'm worried about that.
36:12 Speaker 01 Right.
36:13 Speaker 00 I think you as a son and as a brother are probably going to do that.
36:18 Speaker 01 Should be a sense of urgency.
36:19 Speaker 00 Yeah. So the fact that he doesn't show up that day, or at least in this version given by Chase, doesn't show up that day, that seems very strange to me. On day seven, Chase called Joseph's mom and said she should call the sheriff's office. After the welfare check, Chase called Joseph's mother and told her to tell Michael to meet him at the house. They found an open window and Michael climbed inside and opened the door for him. As we know, the family was reported missing soon after Michael entered their home. Chase told the Daily Mail, he regretted not going to the police sooner.
37:00 Speaker 01 Well, yeah, how couldn't you be regretful?
37:03 Speaker 00 Yeah, because a lot of time has passed.
37:04 Speaker 01 Yeah.
37:05 Speaker 00 After the sheriff's department finally went to the house, Chase was called in for questioning and he became a suspect.
37:13 Speaker 01 That's not surprising.
37:15 Speaker 00 No, I mean, he's, he's a business partner or associate. He is one of the last individuals to either have seen or talked to Joseph on the phone. Okay. Yeah, you're, you're going to be looked at for sure. He told the Daily Mail about his criminal record. In 1978, he was convicted of burglary and in 1987, he was convicted of receiving stolen property. He served time for both convictions. Chase said nine out of 10 people on this planet have got some kind of criminal background. Mine is 25 and 30 years old now. I'm 56. I'm an old man.
37:57 Speaker 00 I got into trouble here and there when I was a kid, but I don't have some long criminal history, which is what people have tried to imply.
38:06 Speaker 01 I know what he's talking about.
38:07 Speaker 00 About being an old man?
38:09 Speaker 01 That too.
38:11 Speaker 00 Well, you know, he's only at this point, a few years younger than you and just like four years older than me. I don't consider myself an old man. I could get in trouble right now if I really wanted to.
38:24 Speaker 01 You could. And you know, I have.
38:26 Speaker 00 Yes. And I'm not a hundred percent sure that it's not ongoing.
38:32 Speaker 01 Well, we shouldn't be talking about this on the podcast.
38:34 Speaker 00 I know. You keep telling me that. Chase also revealed that the lead detective asked him early on if he would take a lie detector test because he was convinced Chase knew where Joseph was. He declined at first. An attorney told him not to do it, but after talking with his girlfriend, he decided to do it. So investigators would move on and focus on finding the family. After Chase took the polygraph, he was told there were a couple of inconsistencies, but that was just them trying to trick me into saying something. I didn't hear any more about it after that. Now, obviously, this is according to him.
39:15 Speaker 01 Yeah.
39:16 Speaker 00 After the bodies were found, Joseph's father did an interview stating he thought there were three prime suspects in the case, one of whom was a former business partner with a criminal history. Chase said he wasn't sure Joseph's father was talking about him because he had mentioned someone with an attempted murder charge.
39:36 Speaker 01 Well, that's what he did look at. Attempted murder charge? I'd want to know a little bit more about that.
39:42 Speaker 00 But a former business partner with a criminal history does seem to match, right? Chase Merritt. The Daily Mail also reported that at one point, Summer came under suspicion because she went by aliases, had officially changed her name and lied about her age. Records from the family computer showed she sent Joseph angry and somewhat threatening emails about his son from his previous marriage. Chase said Summer could fly into a rage for small reasons, but he didn't think she would have harmed her family. He claimed- Joseph told him things about the marriage, like the fact Summer was jealous and didn't like
40:25 Speaker 00 anyone outside the family, taking Joseph's time and attention. All right, can we get back to somebody lying about their age? Now it depends on, you know, the context of it. If it's something where you shouldn't legally lie. But if not, my wife should be locked up. Because she is constantly either purposefully, but most often just gets confused about what her age is.
40:53 Speaker 01 Yeah.
40:54 Speaker 00 She always thinks she's one year younger than what she actually is.
40:58 Speaker 01 I mean, in fairness to her, I've done that to myself.
41:01 Speaker 00 Yes. You've done a lot of stuff to yourself, but uh, no, I think a lot of people do that, right? The year switches over, you kind of forget how old you are, especially when you get up there like we are.
41:14 Speaker 01 I actually think I've even made myself older than I am.
41:17 Speaker 00 Yeah, that wouldn't surprise me. But for a long time, like even well into her 40s, my wife always said she was 29. Now that was jokingly to me.
41:26 Speaker 01 Yeah.
41:27 Speaker 00 She thought, okay, you know, I'm going to stay 29 forever. Chase also did an interview with CNN where he said he was definitely the last person to see Joseph. And this comment to CNN really stood out to investigators.
41:45 Speaker 01 It should. I mean, when you hear someone say that, that I am definitely the last person that saw this individual. Well, how can that be?
41:55 Speaker 00 Or how do you know that?
41:56 Speaker 01 Yeah.
41:57 Speaker 00 You could possibly be the last person, but if they met with foul play, which it sure seems like they did after the bodies were found.
42:08 Speaker 01 Yeah.
42:09 Speaker 00 Well, then if you're the last person, then you're the killer.
42:12 Speaker 01 Exactly.
42:12 Speaker 00 I mean, there's no two ways around it.
42:15 Speaker 01 You just admitted to it.
42:19 Speaker 00 Sheriff Sergeant Eddie Bachman told CNBC's American Greed, "That was kind of a red flag for us because I don't know how anyone, person could be so certain and say that he was the last person that saw his best friend alive if he wasn't in fact, the last person who saw him alive." Cause so kind of echoing what we just said.
42:42 Speaker 01 Yeah.
42:43 Speaker 00 Although the Chase Merritt lead was a dead end in the beginning stages of the investigation, he was questioned by the police and he did display some concerning behavior after the family's disappearance. Investigators spoke to Chase two weeks after the family went missing and he was already talking about them in past tense. When asked about it, he said he had no idea why he did it. Chase also told investigators that on February 4th, 2010, he and Joseph met for lunch at a Chick-fil-A in Rancho Cucamonga. He said they had to go over all kinds of money stuff related to the business.
43:25 Speaker 00 Chase also claimed that during their meeting, Joseph gave him physical copies of checks to pay for some of the projects they were working on. When investigators examined Joseph's QuickBooks accounts, they did find a series of checks made out to Chase and other vendors Chase owed money to. The checks were dated February 4th, but the metadata in the computer revealed the checks were actually written several days after the family disappeared and had been backdated.
43:58 Speaker 01 Hmm. Getting into a little bit of motive here, potentially.
44:03 Speaker 00 Yeah. And also it doesn't look good, right? For Chase at all. If he's saying one thing and then the evidence is pointing to the fact that, you know, these were written after the family disappeared, well, it kind of contradicts his statement.
44:24 Speaker 01 You know, he has these checks and he's talking about them in past tense. Why do that?
44:29 Speaker 00 Well, this is really when Chase's story fell apart. And like you said, it really started to provide a motive. Investigators found evidence showing someone took control. A Joseph's checking account shortly before and after he disappeared. They wrote nine checks to Chase Merritt or those he owed money to totaling almost $15,000. A QuickBooks customer service rep told the police he remembered a call from someone who identified himself as Joseph McStay, who wanted to delete his account and all information on the account. The caller didn't have the passcode to delete the account.
45:11 Speaker 00 So the customer service rep couldn't carry out the request. Police determined the phone used to call customer service belonged to Chase Merritt, not Joseph McStay.
45:23 Speaker 01 So now we're really getting into some motive here.
45:26 Speaker 00 Well, and we're also stacking evidence, right? Up against Chase Merritt. Then investigators found an email from Joseph dated February 1st stating that Chase owed him almost $43,000.
45:42 Speaker 01 Chunk of change.
45:43 Speaker 00 That's a good chunk of change, you know, especially when you're talking about motive for murder. Chase Merritt was arrested on November 5th, 2014 and charged with four counts of first degree murder. Authorities revealed that cell phone records and forged checks linked him to the crime. Cell data placed Chase in the desert where the bodies were found just two days after the family disappeared. He grew up in the area and was familiar with the terrain. Authorities said they believe the murders took place at the family home, but did not discuss a motive. Well, not too hard to at least theorize on what the motive might be.
46:26 Speaker 00 Right? If he owes him $43,000 and he's stealing, you know,
46:33 Speaker 00 At least 15,000. Okay, that would be a motive.
46:38 Speaker 01 It would be. Basically, at that point, you got about $60,000 in robbery.
46:44 Speaker 00 Well, we talked earlier too about no forced entry at the home. You know, if these murders did occur at the home or the family was taken from the home, there would be no forced entry with Chase Merritt.
47:00 Speaker 01 No, because he was a family friend.
47:01 Speaker 00 Yeah, he was known to the family. They would have obviously let him in. On the day of the arrest, investigators also said that the video from the border crossing did not appear to show the family and they didn't think it was related to the McStay case. Chase Merritt's trial began on January 7, 2019. Prosecutors argued greed was the motive. Chase killed Joseph and his family because he'd been stealing from the company and was angry he was being cut out of the business. Days before the disappearance, Joseph accused Chase of owing him almost $43,000. Investigators have said that Merritt wrote multiple checks totaling more than $21,000
47:47 Speaker 00 on Joseph's QuickBooks account after he went missing. Then deleted the electronic version of the checks after printing them to try to cover his tracks.
47:59 Speaker 01 Trying to be sneaky, but not sneaky enough.
48:01 Speaker 00 Well, and that's what trips up a lot of people, right? You think this is going to cover things up. But electronically, sometimes that's harder to do than what you think. But it turns out he was also writing and printing checks three days before his February 4th meeting with Joseph. Chase used the money to go on a gambling spree at different casinos. The prosecution told the jury that the family was bludgeoned with a sledgehammer. Joseph's skull was shattered. Summer sustained a blow to the jaw. Both boys had skull fractures, but there were not enough remains
48:45 Speaker 00 of one of the boys to even determine how he was killed.
48:49 Speaker 01 So really sick guy, right? Taking out the mom, the dad, the kids.
48:58 Speaker 00 Well, we said a three pound sledgehammer was found with the remains. I mean, how gruesome is that, you know, kind of video in your head?
49:08 Speaker 01 Yeah.
49:09 Speaker 00 Of someone killing an entire family with a sledgehammer?
49:14 Speaker 01 And these kids probably knew him as Uncle Chase.
49:17 Speaker 00 Yeah, probably. I mean, they were only, what, three and four years old?
49:21 Speaker 01 Yeah.
49:22 Speaker 00 Probably, I'm sure they'd known him all their lives, their short lives. Supervising Deputy DA Sean Doherty said Chase desperately tried to cover his tracks after the murders, misled investigators, talked in circles and played the victim. The prosecution presented a list of checks and phone calls to QuickBooks where Chase impersonated Joseph. The defense presented calls and other evidence to suggest Chase and Joseph were working together to change the QuickBooks accounting system from online to desktop, out of concern that their business associate, Dan Kavanaugh, might try to hack it.
50:05 Speaker 00 Chase and Joseph apparently called him Hacker Dan. You know who you don't want working for you?
50:11 Speaker 01 A hacker?
50:12 Speaker 00 Someone with the nickname hacker.
50:15 Speaker 01 Unless you're into hacking.
50:17 Speaker 00 Unless you're in the hacking business. Yeah, I guess that's right.
50:20 Speaker 01 I tried to hack your system once.
50:23 Speaker 00 How'd that go?
50:24 Speaker 01 Well, I got in, but it was very disturbing, so I got out really quick. And it wasn't true crime stuff that I made, that was so disturbing.
50:32 Speaker 00 Like plunging headfirst into the dark web?
50:34 Speaker 01 I was like, oh, I gotta get out of here quickly.
50:38 Speaker 00 The jury also heard that on February 6th, between 10:46 a.m. and 1:30 p.m., Chase's phone pinged cell towers in the desert where the bodies were found. The defense said the analysis did not include two phone calls that Chase made, which put him in Victorville and not the burial site. And I did recently watch a pretty good documentary about this case. And a lot was made about this cell phone evidence and what, you know, it really showed. Prosecutors noted that for several days after the disappearance, Chase's phone went dark for hours at a time.
51:19 Speaker 00 The shadow of a truck, consistent with one driven by Merritt, was captured by a security camera in the family's neighborhood. Additionally, a DNA mixture, including a sample that matched Chase, was found on the gear shift and steering wheel of the family's car. The defense countered that the DNA could have transferred to the vehicle when Chase met with Joseph on February 4th. Chase's DNA was not found at the grave sites, but there was DNA belonging to other unidentified individuals. Okay. I mean, I think, you know, as the jury, if you're soaking all this in, some of this might hit home with you. Yeah, I get it.
52:03 Speaker 00 His DNA is on the, on the family vehicle. But, you know, do you shake hands when the meeting is over and then Joseph gets in the car, therefore transferring Chase's DNA? I mean, that's a possibility, but this DNA belonging to other unidentified individuals. Now, we don't know exactly where this DNA was found, but is that something that might sow the seeds of reasonable doubt in the minds of a juror or multiple jurors?
52:40 Speaker 01 Sure.
52:41 Speaker 00 It could. The defense argued there was no physical evidence linking Chase to the scene alleging that if Chase had killed the family in their home, there would have been indications of a struggle and blood everywhere. And this is something that I, I did kind of think about. It's hard for me to believe that this family was killed inside their home, especially all four members being bludgeoned with a sledgehammer.
53:07 Speaker 01 Yeah.
53:08 Speaker 00 Because. There would have been evidence everywhere. More likely that they were either led out of the home, tricked out of the home, or forced out of the home at gunpoint. And that the murder then happened somewhere offsite. The defense presented an alternate suspect that they said was overlooked. Dan Kavanaugh. Dan was broke in early 2010 and he was angry over being cut out of Joseph and Chase's new custom fountain venture. Joseph agreed to pay Kavanaugh a $30,000 cut. After the family went missing, Kavanaugh stole almost $8,000 from the business account.
53:52 Speaker 00 And everybody's got their hand in that cookie jar.
53:54 Speaker 01 Yeah, they do.
53:56 Speaker 00 The defense also noted that there was no boarding pass or ticket to verify the prosecution's assertion that he traveled to Hawaii at the time the family went missing. So that must have been his alibi, right? I couldn't have done it. I was in Hawaii. In her testimony, Joseph's mother, Susan Blake, testified that she observed an argument between Chase Merritt and Dan Kavanaugh. She claimed Merritt wanted Kavanaugh to give him money. She said, per KABC, they were yelling big time at each other, arguing, and Dan was just not going to budge. It was scary. I literally walked out and said, if my son loses his business,
54:40 Speaker 00 so be it. I need to find my family. She gave Chase money to keep the business going, explaining, at the time, I would do anything to help my son because I'm probably not in my right mind anyways at that time. In closing arguments, the prosecution acknowledged that it was still unknown where and when the family was killed. But they still had a case without answering those questions. And only the killer knew exactly what happened in the house. On June 10th, 2019, Chase Merritt was found guilty of the four murders. On June 24th, a jury recommended the death penalty for the deaths of Summer and the children
55:24 Speaker 00 and life in prison with no parole for the murder of Joseph McStay. On January 21st, 2020, the judge upheld the jury's recommendation and sentenced Chase Merritt to death for killing Summer Gianni and Joseph Jr. And life in prison for the murder of Joseph McStay. And I thought that was a little strange. Why death for three, but life for Joseph? Why not just death for all four? Not that it's gonna make any difference, right?
55:56 Speaker 01 But it is strange.
55:57 Speaker 00 It is strange. Three death sentences versus four death sentences. Barrett said at the hearing, per K R O N four, I loved Joseph. He was a big part of my life and my family's life. I would never have hurt him in any way. I would have never raised my hand for a woman or child. I did not do this thing. He claimed prosecutors framed him, accused witnesses of lying, and said the judge allowed it to happen. You know what judges don't like?
56:28 Speaker 01 Being accused of stuff like that?
56:29 Speaker 00 Being accused of running a shoddy courtroom. But as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, you know, you've got the, the cell phone data, the computer and financial records. With all of that, prosecutors were able to build a compelling case showing that Chase Merritt murdered and stole from the man he claimed was his best friend. Authorities believe Summer and the children were killed because they could have identified Merritt.
57:00 Speaker 01 So it's one thing to be a killer. It's a whole nother level, I believe, to be a killer that kills kids.
57:08 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, killing anyone is wrong.
57:11 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
57:12 Speaker 00 But I agree with you. I mean, the heinous factor seems to go up, right? When you're talking about children. I mean, these were three and four year olds.
57:24 Speaker 01 Yeah, babies.
57:25 Speaker 00 But could they have identified Chase Merritt? Yeah.
57:30 Speaker 01 Sure.
57:30 Speaker 00 I think the answer to that is yes. I think, you know, there are some people that are split on this case. Some evidence and some pretty good evidence, compelling evidence against Chase Merritt. And obviously there was enough for the jury to convict him and to recommend three death sentences and one life sentence. But I don't think this is a case where you say, well, you know, there's, there's the, the big smoking gun evidence. There's a bunch of things that kind of all add up to him most likely doing this.
58:11 Speaker 00 But I think there are some people that see some reasonable doubt in this case. And, and I don't have a problem with that.
58:17 Speaker 01 No.
58:18 Speaker 00 I mean, I think that can happen in, in many cases, we've said it often, right? A lot of cases are really built on a mountain of circumstantial evidence, more so than just overwhelming physical evidence. Those cases are often more slam dunky type, right?
58:43 Speaker 01 Yeah.
58:44 Speaker 00 These other ones, they're a little more nuanced and probably much tougher for the jury. But if he did do it as the jury believes he did, I mean, what are we talking about here? Gibbs, 50 grand or so?
59:01 Speaker 01 Yeah, 60 grand.
59:03 Speaker 00 Something.
59:04 Speaker 01 Yeah.
59:05 Speaker 00 Along those lines, not only to kill your best friend or one of your good friends, but also a wife and mother and two very young children. That's just hard to wrap your mind around.
59:22 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean, you are a special kind of evil to do something like that.
59:26 Speaker 00 Yeah, I agree with you. But that's it for our episode on the McStay family murders. We got a voicemail. You want to check that out?
59:33 Speaker 01 Let's hear it.
59:34 Speaker 02 Hey, Mike and Gibby, this is Christie. I am calling to wish my daughter who had, introduced me to you guys back when she was in high school, but she is turning 21 at the end of this month. So I just wanted to call and celebrate her 21st birthday with you guys. And I hope she hears this and gets embarrassed. Happy birthday Samantha.
59:58 Speaker 01 Awesome. Happy birthday Samantha.
1:00:00 Speaker 00 Happy birthday, happy birthday, happy, happy birthday to you Samantha. Very cool though.
1:00:11 Speaker 01 It is cool.
1:00:11 Speaker 00 That she's actually the one who, you know, turned her mom on to the show. And it kind of reminds me of my daughters a little bit, you know, when we started this podcast, they were, they were young.
1:00:23 Speaker 01 They were.
1:00:23 Speaker 00 And now I have one who just got, uh, finished her graduate degree. My youngest is in her second year of college.
1:00:31 Speaker 01 That's right.
1:00:31 Speaker 00 She's about ready to turn 21. So, hey, time flies, man.
1:00:36 Speaker 01 It, it does. And for you to get a singing happy birthday from Fergie.
1:00:43 Speaker 00 Put that in your pocket and take it with you.
1:00:45 Speaker 01 Exactly.
1:00:46 Speaker 00 But that is it for another episode of True Crime All The Time. So for Mike.
1:00:51 Speaker 01 And Gabby.
1:00:52 Speaker 00 Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.
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