Pod Insights True Crime All The Time David Brom About this episode In February 1988, 16-year-old David Brom murdered his parents and younger siblings. His defense argued that David was mentally ill, suffering from abuse, and snapped after an argument with his father. Prosecutors had evidence that David spent months planning the murders and killed his family in a cold and calculating manner.
Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss David Brom. There was no doubt that David murdered his family. What investigators and prosecutors had to focus on was David's mental health and whether there was premeditation involved.
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1:47 Speaker 00 Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode 450 of the True Crime All the Time Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson, and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. How are you? Hey, I'm doing good. How about you? Doing very well. I didn't realize that it was episode 450. It's kind of a milestone. And normally on milestones, we do really big cases. Yeah. But we have one coming up next week. Yeah. I missed it by a week, so. Shocker that you would have that wrong. Yeah, something to look forward to. Yeah. A really big case. Okay. That I think people are. Have been waiting for for many, many years. I like how you threw everybody off. I think you did it on a purpose, right? They're counting on it. No, I just messed it up. Delay of a week.
2:32 Speaker 00 I just messed it up. I'm gonna be completely honest. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Patty Musari. Musari. Melanie Madamba. Ooh, Madamba. Peter Ozuna. These are fun names. Yeah. Ozuna. Nikki and Xavier McNada. Yeah, there's the McNada. Good old Sarah jumped out of her highest level. Thanks, Sarah. Tracy Dale. There's Dale. And last but not least, Don Reed. I can read. Like, you should read something every day. You should. You know? And then if we go back into the vault.
3:05 Speaker 00 This week, we selected Marie Helen Rancourt. Thanks, Rancourt. Yeah, so we appreciate the new support, the continued support, all of that. We have a brand new episode out right now on True Crime All The Time Unsolved, where we're talking about Ashley Willette and Tony Torres. And this is such a fascinating, layered, complex case. Ashley was murdered in 1999 up in Maine after leaving a sleepover at a friend's house. And then about a month later, this young man named Tony Torres kind of said what happened to Ashley. And then he went missing just a few months later and has never been found.
3:49 Speaker 00 So there's, there's a number of mysteries here. It's very intriguing to me. It is. A good episode. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All The Time? Yeah, I'm ready for this. We're talking about David Brom. In February 1988, 16-year-old David Brom murdered his parents and younger siblings. And, you know, this is a case where, you know, the defense is going to argue one thing. The prosecutors are going to present evidence that supports their argument, which is something, you know, in the opposite direction. The Brom family lived in a quiet, well-to-do area of Cascade Township, Minnesota.
4:32 Speaker 00 The family consisted of 41-year-old Bernard, 40-year-old Paulette, 16-year-old David, 14-year-old Diane, and 9-year-old Ricky.
4:42 Speaker 01 Big family.
4:43 Speaker 00 It is. It is. And they actually had the, another child, the oldest child, 19-year-old Joe Brom, who was living in Rochester at the time of the murders. By 1988, David was a sophomore in high school. He and Joe both worked as cooks at a restaurant in Rochester. To outsiders, the Broms seemed like a happy, close family. And we say that a lot.
5:09 Speaker 01 We do.
5:10 Speaker 00 You know, but it's, it, it comes up that when you read through articles and you, you know, pay attention to what neighbors have to say about families. They're like, you know, this was the all-American family. They seemed very happy, very close.
5:26 Speaker 01 Now, anytime I see a really happy family.
5:29 Speaker 00 You start to wonder.
5:30 Speaker 01 Yeah, I'm like, yeah, you, you aren't that happy.
5:32 Speaker 00 What's going on behind closed doors? Bernard had worked as an advisory engineer at IBM for 20 years. Bernard and Paulette were respected leaders at Pax Christie Catholic Church. They often hosted other members at their home for singing and social gatherings. Bernard and Paulette served as Eucharistic ministers, ushers, and leaders in the marriage counseling program. Paulette was the church's preschool director for many years, but resigned in 1986 to spend more time with family. So, no doubt, they were very active in the church. Neighbors later said there didn't appear to be any friction among the family.
6:16 Speaker 00 They said David was friendly, helpful, and often babysat younger children in the neighborhood. During the snowstorm in early 1988, David plowed his neighbor's driveway and wouldn't accept any money from him. David's manager said he was a quiet, dependable worker. His school friend said he was a sensitive person who wasn't violent. David even objected to the killing of animals in slaughterhouses. A counselor at David's school said he was sensitive, a good writer, and an artist.
6:50 Speaker 01 Is it uncommon to hear all this wonderful stuff about this individual?
6:54 Speaker 00 Well, I think, I don't know that it's uncommon. I think it's less common than what you hear about, you know, a family. Because when you're talking about someone who goes on to kill, sometimes there are signs, right? People come back and they say, well, you know, we were worried about him, or he was doing this, or doing that, or she. But in some cases, there are no signs, or the, or the signs are missed. And maybe he was just a genuinely good, sensitive kid.
7:35 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah.
7:36 Speaker 00 I mean, up to a point.
7:38 Speaker 01 Before something changed him.
7:40 Speaker 00 Yeah, because obviously, we know something has to change for him to go from this person that everybody is describing to a murderer. Although the Brahms seemed like a normal family, there were rumors about a rift between the parents and the two oldest sons. Overall, those who knew David said he was a nice boy. He was often frustrated with his parents, particularly his father. He felt his parents were too strict. And I don't know that that's uncommon at all. I mean, what kid at some point or another doesn't think, oh, why are my parents doing this to me? They're too strict. They have too many rules.
8:21 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think we've all been through that. I know I went through that.
8:24 Speaker 00 Yeah.
8:25 Speaker 01 Can't believe you guys are, uh, doing this to me. And my neighbors had the strictest parents ever.
8:31 Speaker 00 The strictest? Oh.
8:33 Speaker 01 They were pretty strict.
8:34 Speaker 00 They were pretty strict.
8:37 Speaker 00 Yeah. Um, my parents weren't super strict. I mean, there was rules, but you know, it was pretty relaxed. I had some friends though, who, and they couldn't do nothing.
8:50 Speaker 01 Yeah.
8:50 Speaker 00 Couldn't get away with anything.
8:52 Speaker 01 Like on lockdown all the time.
8:54 Speaker 00 Yeah. And I was like, I'm glad I don't live in that family. Not that they weren't good people. It's just, yeah, you're not going to have any fun. And I'm sure that's what it was designed to curb.
9:05 Speaker 01 Also, that one friend that had like.
9:07 Speaker 00 Way too much freedom.
9:08 Speaker 01 Yes.
9:09 Speaker 00 I had one too, but he's the kid that always had to blow out keggers and stuff because his mom just didn't care.
9:17 Speaker 01 Didn't care. Or she was working her third job and he had free reign of the house.
9:22 Speaker 00 On the evening of February 18th, 1988, the bodies of Bernard, Paulette, Diane, and Ricky Bra were found in their home in Cascade Township. Authorities went to the home after they received a call from staff at Lord's High School, who said other students reported that David Bra may have threatened to harm his family. David came to school on February 18th, but didn't attend any of his classes. His friends noticed that he had drastically changed his appearance. He dyed his hair black, shaved the sides of his head, and spiked the hair on the back of his head. He was also spotted that day purchasing a wig and makeup. Okay. So we just got done
10:07 Speaker 00 talking about David in, you know, pretty glowing terms, right? All these people had these great things to say about him.
10:15 Speaker 01 Yeah.
10:15 Speaker 00 And now, all of a sudden, not that changing your appearance means that you're going to do something bad, but it had to stand out to people, especially at the school who knew this kid.
10:29 Speaker 01 Yeah. If you see him changing his appearance, you're hearing about him buying a, some makeup and a wig. On top of that, there's rumors that he talked about doing harm to his family. It's gonna raise some flags.
10:43 Speaker 00 Yeah. Well, you know, what is going on with him? The police spoke to David's friends, who said David was having trouble with his parents, specifically his father. He and Bernard got into an argument because David purchased a punk music tape, which his parents disapproved of. And, you know, we do kind of have to frame everything in.
11:05 Speaker 00 The timeframe that we're talking about, right, that, that late eighties was really kind of a seminal moment for music and, you know, the lyrics and people being up in arms, wanting to slap labels on music.
11:22 Speaker 01 Yeah.
11:22 Speaker 00 I kind of remember all of that.
11:24 Speaker 01 You're right.
11:25 Speaker 00 On February 17th, 1988, David talked about killing his parents. And on the 18th, he told a friend he had killed them. This rumor reached school staff who notified the police. When the police arrived at the Brahm household, the doors were closed, but not locked. Bernard, Paulette, Diane and Ricky were found dead on the upper floor. All four had been struck at least once in the head with an axe. And when you describe a murder, or in this case, four murders, it's never good, but some of them are way more gruesome than others.
12:06 Speaker 00 And I think being hit in the head with an axe, that's a very gruesome way to go.
12:12 Speaker 01 When I hear axe, I just get even more nauseated. I don't know. It's just something about the word axe.
12:18 Speaker 00 Yeah, denotes savagery, carnage. Now, obviously being shot to death is not good either.
12:26 Speaker 01 No.
12:28 Speaker 00 But there is something about an axe to the head that seems particularly nasty.
12:34 Speaker 01 Because it's so hands on.
12:36 Speaker 00 I think that's part of it, right? You're up close and personal, but also, you know, the axe to the head is a serious blow. Ricky was in his bed. Bernard was found next to a bed in another room. Paulette and Diane were found in the hallway. It appeared that Bernard attempted to defend himself against the killer. They were in their pajamas, leading authorities to believe they were attacked in the early morning hours of February 18th. I think that's a pretty easy, safe theory to, to come to, right? They're still in their pajamas. So either they were killed as they slept, right? Before they went to bed or before they got up.
13:21 Speaker 01 Yeah.
13:23 Speaker 00 A bloody axe was found in the basement. Two cars were found in the driveway, but the family's van was missing. Authorities put out a national alert for David and spent the night searching for him. There were multiple citizen reports from people who thought they saw him in Rochester. I mean, obviously Gibbs, he's going to be the main suspect. There's no way around that.
13:46 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean, he has to be right. I mean, there's reports of him acting differently, looking differently. And he's the only person from that family unaccounted for.
14:00 Speaker 00 That was living at the home at the time.
14:02 Speaker 01 Yeah.
14:03 Speaker 00 And he had actually threatened the family and told a friend that he'd killed them.
14:09 Speaker 01 Right.
14:10 Speaker 00 So, I mean, once police get all that information, it's kind of a no brainer.
14:14 Speaker 01 Pretty high on the list.
14:16 Speaker 00 The van David was seen driving was found late that night near the Rochester Methodist Hospital. On the morning of February 19th, 1988, David was arrested at the post office in Rochester and charged with four counts of first degree murder. A citizen called the Olmsted County Sheriff's Office to report seeing someone fitting David's description in a phone booth near the post office. And I thought this was pretty strange. You know, here's a, a guy who is suspected of murdering everyone in his house, his family members, but he takes the van, but doesn't leave the area?
14:59 Speaker 01 Yeah, not the smartest guy when you, when you think about it that way, you know? I mean, you're, you wanted to, you are a suspect in a quadruple murder. You're going to hang out? No, you should be getting, you should have got out of town, but he didn't.
15:13 Speaker 00 So what does that mean? Does that mean that he, you know, there was no planning here or he didn't have a plan for what was to come afterwards? I think that's something we're going to have to look at as we go through the story. David didn't enter a plea at his arraignment. He was ordered to undergo psychiatric examination and was being held under 24 hour watch at the county jail. Prosecutors announced their intentions to try David as an adult. And that doesn't surprise me at all. I get it. He's 16 years old, but if, you know, they think you killed.
15:50 Speaker 00 Four family members with an axe. That's an adult-like crime.
15:55 Speaker 01 It is.
15:55 Speaker 00 So it doesn't surprise me at all that they wanted to charge him as an adult. No motive was established, but the sheriff confirmed reports that David had a disagreement with his father over the purchase of a punk music tape. In late February, David was transferred to a juvenile detention center for a week of psychiatric testing. Prior to his hearing, the testing would assess whether David should stand trial as a juvenile or an adult. Local authorities completed their investigation in March and announced they wouldn't be making any more arrests.
16:31 Speaker 01 Because they felt like they had their suspect.
16:35 Speaker 00 And he acted alone, right? That's what they must have concluded.
16:40 Speaker 01 Yeah.
16:41 Speaker 00 David's highly publicized hearing to determine whether he should be tried as a juvenile or an adult started on April 5th, 1988. The first witness was Deputy Michael Brayley, who testified he was in a state of shock. After finding the victims, he said, "I had never seen so much carnage in such a small area." And I never know, Gibbs, how big some of these police departments are, right? That we're talking about. I'm going to assume this was one that was probably on the smaller side, but even still,
17:18 Speaker 00 you know, how many police officers have seen a house with four family members, you know, murdered by an axe? I don't know how many.
17:31 Speaker 01 Something they would never really want to ever see.
17:34 Speaker 00 No, and, and I don't know how you prepare for that. You know, the police academy is not going to prepare you for that. I don't think there's really anything that can. According to Deputy Brayley, two kitchen knives were found in the hallway leading to David's room. Downstairs, police found hair dye splattered in a bathroom sink, an empty hair dye container, and rubber gloves. Letters and cards were strewn across the kitchen floor. It appeared as if there was a struggle in the kitchen because numerous utensils were also scattered. Deputy Coroner Dr. Katherine Burke testified that Bernard had multiple deep wounds to the
18:14 Speaker 00 back of his head, several tears in his pajamas, and several wounds on his shoulders.
18:20 Speaker 01 I'm sure he had hit his dad hard and, uh, and, uh, pretty aggressive. I mean, that was probably his biggest threat when he decided to attack his family, right? Got to take out the dad first.
18:31 Speaker 00 Yeah, I think he would have been the biggest threat. Paulette suffered multiple wounds to the left side of her head and a deep wound to her left forearm. Ricky had wounds to the right side of his face. In total, Bernard had 22 wounds, Paulette had 19, Richard had nine, and Diane had eight. And, I mean, you can analyze the number of wounds. It was thought that he had a real issue with his dad. Is it surprising that his dad suffered more wounds than anybody else?
19:07 Speaker 01 No.
19:08 Speaker 00 Followed by his mom, and then his siblings had less wounds, but they were obviously fatal still.
19:17 Speaker 01 But it's so brutal. I mean, think about it. I mean, this is your, your parents, it's your siblings.
19:23 Speaker 00 And just the, the thought of somebody, you know, holding that axe, raising it up, and just raining down with it. It's a very scary thought. And if you're a parent, the last thing you expect is your 16-year-old to attack you with an axe.
19:42 Speaker 01 Yeah, I'm sure you're taken off guard, right? And then do you fight back the way that you probably should? Or are you, you just so shocked and timid, I guess, that you, you don't fight back as strong as maybe one would have? Because it's your kid. You're like, I don't know if I want to hurt my own kid, even though he's hurting me.
20:05 Speaker 00 Yeah, I think this is one of those things that nobody knows what they would do unless they were in that situation. Every good true crime story has a twist. DraftKings Casino has a spin. Flex spins let you spin your way. Didn't see that coming? That's because Flex spins are exclusive to DraftKings. New casino players pay $5 and get 1,000 total Flex spins, including 100 lightning link spins. Unlock 50 spins a day at varying values for the first 20 days. You decide where the story goes next. Download the DraftKings Casino app. Sign up with code TCAD and spin your way. The crown is yours. In partnership with DraftKings Casino. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER in Connecticut.
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22:57 Speaker 00 The only other entry in the notebook was four horsemen of the apocalypse now. Okay, that's pretty cryptic. First one's pretty cut and dry. This four horsemen of the apocalypse now is a little more cryptic. Two of David's friends testified that he hated his parents and told them he killed his family. Both witnesses were only 16 and were not identified by the press. A 16 year old student at David's school said David told her he took an axe into his parents' bedroom and hit his father several times, then killed his mother, brother and sister. The witness rode with David in his family's van.
23:40 Speaker 00 The morning after the murders, they stopped to talk at a park. David told her his father hit him during an argument. At 4 a.m., David went into his parents' bedroom and hit his dad in the head with an axe. He repeatedly hit his father as he tried to get up from the bed. His mother was screaming and ran out of the bedroom. He left the bedroom and quote, "got his mom." Then went into Ricky's room. Ricky screamed and David screamed back before hitting his brother with the axe. He returned to the hallway where he found Diane cradling his mother. She screamed, he screamed back, and then he hit Diane with the axe.
24:22 Speaker 00 David felt as if he had to leave, so he left the axe behind and fled the house. The witness and David left the park and drove to a store where she planned to call the school and tell them she was sick. At that time, David was changing clothes in the van. According to the witness, David seemed nervous and he told me he was sick. They went to the witness's home because David wanted to cut his hair. She couldn't get it as short as he wanted, so they went to Kmart and bought a razor, then returned to her home where she helped David shave his head. The girl's mother came home while they were there. She explained that she left school because she didn't feel well, but she was feeling better now, so her mother took her to school.
25:07 Speaker 01 If you're that girl, what's it like hearing this? And why is he telling her?
25:12 Speaker 00 Yeah, that was my first thought is why is he going around telling so many different people that he killed his mom, his dad, and his siblings? But yeah, your question is equally is compelling. You're digesting this information and what do you do? You gotta be a little scared, right? That if you do the wrong thing, say the wrong thing, maybe even act the wrong way, you could be next.
25:46 Speaker 01 And do you really think it's best to bring him back to your house?
25:51 Speaker 00 Again, don't know what she was thinking. She could have just been in self-preservation mode, trying to just keep his trust. I don't know. A girl David had been dating testified that he told her he hated his parents and told her he killed them.
26:09 Speaker 01 Just another person that he tells.
26:11 Speaker 00 He's just going around telling a lot of different people. After leaving the first witness's house, David went to the girl's school and met with her and some of her friends. They went to a pizza restaurant for lunch. The girl testified per the Rochester Post-Bolton, David said his parents had kicked him out of the house and that he slept in the van the night before. David said he killed his parents, but they all thought it was a joke. However, she believed him. When he called her after school from his home, David said he went back home to get some tapes. She asked why he was kicked out of the house. David said his dad was upset about some of his albums and thought the covers were too explicit.
26:53 Speaker 00 Later in their conversation, he said he killed his family in the early morning hours and they were all upstairs. He wanted to get out of the house as fast as possible. David said he was going to dye his hair, move to the Twin Cities and live on the streets. So he did have at least somewhat of a plan, but I think we know he never really kind of put it into motion. He never got that far. He claimed he had enough money to live for a couple of years. He had been to an ATM and had about $250.
27:28 Speaker 01 Well, that's not going to get you very far.
27:30 Speaker 00 No, but for a 16 year old, you know, do they always have the best understanding of money? No, not always.
27:39 Speaker 01 Yeah, I got about enough to get me through two years. Oh, wait, what? I gotta pay what?
27:45 Speaker 00 Well, you know, if you're living on the streets, okay. Obviously there's not going to be a lot of expenses. Maybe he was planning on, you know, asking for money, panhandling. I don't know. The witness saw David one more time that day when he returned her book bag, which she left in the van. He told her he was in deep trouble. He planned to sleep under a bridge and go to the Douglas Trail in Rochester in the morning. The girl testified that she met David at a church retreat in January, 1988, and they started dating shortly after. She soon learned things were not well in David's home. One night they were talking in David's van after a date.
28:29 Speaker 00 The girl testified, he said he didn't like his parents. He said his dad abused him. He didn't like how they made him do everything around the house like always chop wood. David also talked about his older brother, Joe, and how upset he was that Joe was kicked out of the house a couple of years earlier. They talked often about a fantasy in which David would hit his father over the head, take the family van and go with her to Florida. Part of his fantasy was scaring his siblings with a knife so they wouldn't tell his parents where he went.
29:04 Speaker 01 So he had all these fantasies in his head on what he would think about doing someday.
29:10 Speaker 00 But I do think this is all going to be important, right? When it comes to trial, because it kind of hints at how long this deep seated hatred had been building up. Was it spur of the moment or, you know, did it kind of escalate over a period of years? And I would argue it sounds like more of the latter. Although David said he hated his parents, she didn't really believe him and wasn't sure what to think. David also talked about dying and said he was never happy. But before he wanted to die, he wanted to get back at his family. And we talk about this a lot, right? Someone says something to you, 15, 16, 17 years old.
29:55 Speaker 00 Think back about, you know, what your friends, your boyfriend, your girlfriend says. A lot of people joke around about things that they really shouldn't joke around about.
30:06 Speaker 01 True.
30:07 Speaker 00 Or they're venting and they say, ah, I'm so mad I could kill them. But you don't think they really mean it.
30:14 Speaker 01 No, but in some cases, I guess they do.
30:18 Speaker 00 County services worker John Raymond wrote a report recommending David to be tried as an adult. Raymond testified that David claimed he was physically abused by his father and that his family had many conflicts. Raymond also testified that after the murders, David wandered around Rochester for 30 hours. He fell asleep in a culvert before he was arrested at the post office. Under cross examination, Raymond said the family had been in conflict for years and had sought family counseling over disagreements with Joe, who moved out when he was 16. The conflicts stemmed from how Joe was treated due to differences in religious beliefs.
31:01 Speaker 00 David also felt his parents imposed strict limits on him. David told Raymond that his father physically abused him, but he didn't tell another adult because he didn't trust anyone and thought he would be laughed at. He didn't think anyone would believe him because Bernard was well respected at church.
31:21 Speaker 01 That's kind of a struggle for, for somebody that's in a abusive relationship. Who can you tell that will actually believe what you say?
31:30 Speaker 00 Yeah, now, we don't know at this point if what David is saying is true. But I think people do struggle with that. Right? Do I come forward and tell this secret? Right? When they are being abused? Because am I going to be believed? We've heard that before. The defense asked if Raymond was aware that David and his father argued the night before the killings? And that Bernard pushed David over a coffee table? Raymond said David did mention the argument, but in his opinion, David was physically disciplined, not physically abused.
32:09 Speaker 00 No other adults, such as school counselors, ever indicated David had injuries suggesting abuse. Raymond said social services had not received any reports about the Brahm family. But the defense counted that three years earlier, social services considered foster care for Joe Brahm. And the one thing that I will say, Gibbs, is that the absence of visible injuries, the absence of reports, doesn't necessarily mean that something is not going on.
32:45 Speaker 01 Yeah, you're right. I mean, clearly, there's going to be things people can do that can hurt you that wouldn't stand out to somebody.
32:54 Speaker 00 Raymond testified his recommendation for adult prosecution was partially based on the fact that there were multiple homicides. He agreed that David had no history of problems. Dr. Carl Malmquist, who performed David's court ordered evaluation, diagnosed David with severe depression and said he didn't know how to deal with his aggression. David suffered from progressive depression that built up over a period of years. He tried to end his life in June and September 1987. Dr. Momquist characterized David as an extreme case. He didn't fit the mold of most juveniles who were certified as adults after continuous trouble with the law.
33:39 Speaker 00 Momquist testified per the Post-Bolton, "David doesn't know what to do with his aggression. He smiles. He's a nice kid. Everyone likes him. David played the role of a clown to try to make others happy." So we have differing opinions here. I think what's interesting to me about this doctor is that, you know, he's saying, "Most juveniles, you would see a pattern, right? A progression." They didn't see that here with David. He was a good kid. Everyone liked him. And the next thing you know, he murdered his parents and siblings with an act.
34:17 Speaker 01 Yeah.
34:19 Speaker 00 David's feelings of unhappiness intensified in the ninth grade because it became difficult for him to make people happy. Two of his close friends moved away and his brother Joe had moved out.
34:32 Speaker 01 Kind of lost his network.
34:33 Speaker 00 Well, you know, if you are a person who plays that role, right? Of making others happy, and maybe that's where your self-worth comes from. If you lose that ability and you lose the friends, your core friends, okay, maybe that does something to you.
34:54 Speaker 01 Yeah.
34:55 Speaker 00 Your self-worth goes down because you're not able to perform that function or that role anymore. David was fearful of his father, but that fear was exaggerated. Momquist explained, "He lived in terror of his father, that something terrible would happen, and David's terror was real." Part of their family conflict was that the parents didn't want David, Diane, and Ricky to turn out like Joe, so they were overly strict. And I could see that happening. You know, we've talked about cases where parents lose, you know, one of their children, and then... They try to protect the other one or the remaining children at all costs.
35:39 Speaker 00 And part of that is not giving them the freedom that they probably would have had something not happened to one of their children. Mom Quiz had reservations about keeping David in the juvenile system because he felt David needed long-term treatment focused on his tendencies of self-destruction and the bursts of violence. He added, "I have real reservations that I could assure myself in this court that I could step back and say he was well, and I wouldn't have to worry about suicide or homicide if he was kept in the juvenile system and released at age 19." So although this doctor does differ in some ways from the previous doctor, he's got some
36:24 Speaker 00 real reservations about David and what he would do if he was back out on the street, I think.
36:34 Speaker 01 I don't think he's wrong.
36:35 Speaker 00 No, I don't think he is either. He also said he believed the murders were premeditated and willful, saying, "It flitted in and out of his mind, just as suicide had." Mary Alice Richardson, an attorney and Joe Brahm's former foster parent, testified that Bernard and Paulette were strict disciplinarians and couldn't accept their children's taste in music and dress.
37:02 Speaker 01 I just think sometimes people can be too strict. Parents can be too strict.
37:06 Speaker 00 They can be.
37:07 Speaker 01 Yeah. I kind of think of the old, uh, what was that movie? Footloose? The original one.
37:14 Speaker 00 No dancing?
37:15 Speaker 01 No dancing.
37:16 Speaker 00 All that?
37:16 Speaker 01 Yeah.
37:18 Speaker 00 Yeah, obviously, that was way, way too strict. But is it unusual for parents not to like the way that their kids dress sometimes, the music that they listen to? I don't think it is. But, you know, do some people go way farther than others? Yes.
37:38 Speaker 01 Yeah, for sure.
37:40 Speaker 00 The court heard that Bernard and Paulette committed Joe to a locked psychiatric ward at the hospital because he wouldn't stop dressing in a punk style. Let's face it, man, kids go through phases.
37:53 Speaker 01 They do.
37:54 Speaker 00 You know? Especially in those 14, 15, 16, 17.
38:01 Speaker 00 Age range. I mean, there's all kinds of different phases.
38:05 Speaker 01 But is that the best way to address how because your son is going through a punk rock stage?
38:11 Speaker 00 No, it doesn't seem like it to you and I, and probably not most people, but there are some people out there, right? As parents who really lay down the law, but committing him to a state psychiatric facility for the way he dresses.
38:28 Speaker 01 Yeah.
38:28 Speaker 00 That's rough.
38:29 Speaker 01 It really is rough. And if you were his brother coming up.
38:33 Speaker 00 You're seeing it.
38:34 Speaker 01 And you're thinking, well, I kind of want to dress that way, too. What does that mean for me?
38:39 Speaker 00 Witness Anita Fatch testified that the Brahms took Joe to the hospital under the guise of having a physical exam. Prior to his commitment, he had been staying with the Fetches for a few days. Joe was dating one of Anita's daughters. Anita testified that Bernard and Paulette misled her about why they were taking Joe to the hospital. She tried to understand what their problem was with Joe, who she said was a nice boy. And, you know, she must have liked him to a point because she's letting him date her daughter.
39:14 Speaker 01 Yeah.
39:15 Speaker 00 Both Mary Richardson and Anita Fatch described Joe as a normal adolescent who happened to dress in a punk style. Joe didn't drink or smoke, and he was an above-average student.
39:28 Speaker 01 Just liked to dress a certain way.
39:30 Speaker 00 Mary Richardson testified that before becoming Joe's foster parent, she inquired with the doctor who treated him at the psychiatric hospital. The doctor described Joe as just a typical adolescent rebelling against family rules, and there's nothing wrong with him psychologically or chemically. He just dresses punk. I mean, we're hearing it not only from, you know, his foster parent, but his girlfriend's mom. Now we're hearing it from a doctor. The Richardsons got involved because their son Edward asked if his friend Joe could live with them due to family problems. Joe spent a month with them.
40:13 Speaker 00 During that time, the Brahms only came to the house twice to drop Joe off and pick him up. They never met the Richardsons in person and didn't show concern for Joe's welfare. They called once and didn't even ask how Joe was doing. All right, that's a little cold.
40:30 Speaker 01 Extremely cold, I think.
40:32 Speaker 00 Before taking Joe in, Mary talked to Paulette over the phone. Paulette said her son was argumentative, stubborn, and more than they could handle. She also warned Mary, "Once you see him, you won't want him."
40:47 Speaker 01 Okay.
40:48 Speaker 00 Why? Because of the punk dress?
40:50 Speaker 01 Yeah.
40:51 Speaker 00 Mary was angry. When the night before Joe was supposed to go back to his parents, she still hadn't heard from them. Joe had nowhere to go the following day. When the Richardson's were leaving for a family trip, Mary called the Brahms and told them she couldn't believe. Her family loved Joe more than his own parents. And that was when Bernard and Paulette finally took Joe back home. And it sounds to me like it was done begrudgingly. Like, they really didn't want to. Now, I want to be careful. I don't want to badmouth the Brahms, right? They are the victims in this story.
41:30 Speaker 01 True.
41:31 Speaker 00 But I think it is important to analyze the treatment of Joe and how it relates to, you know, what David would have seen, would have felt during this period of time. Several teens testified that David frequently talked about suicide and made plans with several friends to take a summer trip financed with money he would obtain after killing his family. David once said he would kill his family by putting something in their foot. He told another person he was going to shoot them. And all of these people thought David was joking at the time. Now, I don't know what he was planning to put in their feet that would kill them.
42:14 Speaker 00 I don't know if this was an injection between the toes. You've seen that in TV shows and movies.
42:20 Speaker 01 Yeah, I have. I'm not surprised people don't believe him at this point.
42:25 Speaker 00 No, because I think most people just think this is venting, spouting off, you know? It's not ever going to actually happen. You're just trying to get, let some steam off.
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43:10 Speaker 00 They still didn't believe David when he said he killed his family. On February 18th, two of the teens called the elementary school to see if David's younger siblings were there, and one called the Brahm household to see if anyone would answer. The prosecutor introduced a notebook that contained a list of things David needed to do before and after killing his family. One entry was a list of supplies that ended with, "Kill, bury, fast bank, hair done." Okay. There were notes to call friends, "Have a friend get a gun", and "Have a friend get beer and cigarettes." And I don't really ever understand the lists.
43:55 Speaker 00 I know people journal a lot. There are a lot of people do keep journals or write down their thoughts. But to write down kind of a, what do you want to call it, Gibbs? A to-do list for murder?
44:09 Speaker 01 Yeah.
44:10 Speaker 00 Seems like such damning evidence that the police are going to find at some point.
44:18 Speaker 01 Yeah, but maybe at his age, he doesn't realize that. And he just wants to make sure he doesn't forget to do certain things. So he's going to put it down. So he's got a place to reference, you know, when this goes down.
44:29 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, the kid, you know, he was 16 years old at the time. A crime lab analyst testified that there was strong evidence. David wrote the list. However, the handwriting of another note found in David's room that said, "The killings I'll do, and will the four horsemen of the apocalypse ride", was not consistent with David's handwriting samples. The last witness at the hearing was psychologist Dr. James Gilbertson, who believed David could be treated for his depression and would pose no risk to the general public.
45:05 Speaker 01 So this guy's saying, hey, we can treat him. He can be out in the general public. No concerns.
45:10 Speaker 00 He won't ever do this again. And I get that, that he could have that opinion and it could happen that way, but it could also go very badly, be taking a big risk. I think the other thing is, you know, that kind of line between getting the help you need and paying for what you did. And sometimes that line is very gray.
45:37 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah.
45:38 Speaker 00 If a person has a real mental illness.
45:42 Speaker 01 And doesn't this plan only work if there's some guarantee that he'll follow through on the treatment?
45:50 Speaker 00 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure it would be mandated. He'd probably even be in a facility that he, where he couldn't leave. But, you know, look at some of the things we talked about, Gibbs, the, the planning, the telling friends that he's going to do this and this once he gets his money. You know, that to me seems to be at odds with, you know, not knowing what he was doing.
46:13 Speaker 01 Yeah.
46:14 Speaker 00 And that it was wrong.
46:15 Speaker 01 It doesn't seem like it was a spur of the moment thing.
46:19 Speaker 00 On April 22nd, a judge ordered that David would be tried as a juvenile because the state failed to prove he couldn't be treated or that he was a danger to the public. The judge did say, as quoted by the Post-Bolton, "I don't agree with the outcome, but I have to follow the law. I tell my jurors that all the time, that they are to follow the law even if they don't agree with it." And that's pretty interesting when a judge comes out and says, "I don't agree with this, but the state didn't prove it." And, and those are two different things. He doesn't think this guy is not going to be a risk, probably should be tried as an adult, but the state didn't prove it to him.
47:04 Speaker 01 He makes a good case, right? You gotta be able to prove it. And if we go this other route, we're setting ourselves up for appeals and things like that.
47:15 Speaker 00 Well, in this case, the prosecutors appealed the decision and asked that the proceedings be postponed until the case was reviewed by the Minnesota Court of Appeals. In June 1988, David was transferred to a treatment facility in Texas for severely emotionally disturbed children and adolescents, per the Post-Bolton. This was at the request of his defense because they wanted David in a juvenile psychiatric facility. The Minnesota Court of Appeals heard oral arguments on whether David should be tried as a juvenile or an adult on August 11th. On October 18th, 1988, the Court of Appeals reversed the ruling and ordered David to be tried as an adult.
47:59 Speaker 00 The defense appealed to the Minnesota Supreme Court but lost. And I just wonder how the original judge felt about that. You know, coming out and saying, I don't agree with what I'm doing, but I feel like it's the right thing to do. I don't think he was probably all that upset that he was overturned.
48:19 Speaker 01 No, I mean, at least he said what he needed to say to make his conscience and professionalism heard. Right. He's saying the law doesn't allow for this, in his opinion. Well, obviously somebody else felt that it did and they overruled them and that's what it is.
48:37 Speaker 00 David returned to Rochester in January 1989 to begin the process of standing trials as an adult. On January 26th, a grand jury returned an eight-count indictment against David. He was indicted on four counts of first degree murder and four counts of second degree murder. David pleaded not guilty to the charges. David's attorneys filed a notice that they may rely on a mental illness defense. Opening arguments in David's trial started on September 27th, 1989. David pleaded not guilty and not guilty by reason of mental illness to all the charges against him. Because of this, his trial was split into two phases.
49:20 Speaker 00 One to determine whether he was guilty of first or second degree murder and one where his defense had the burden of proving his legal mental illness. According to State versus Brahm, during Phase 1, the defense requested permission to introduce expert psychiatric testimony about David's capacity to premeditate his actions. The court denied the request and the defense rested without offering testimony.
49:48 Speaker 01 That's gotta hurt.
49:49 Speaker 00 Well, it sounds like they, they were hanging their hat on this one expert. Defense Attorney Terry Walter said in opening arguments that there was no doubt David killed his parents, but he added, "At least I can see that the physical body of David Brahm committed the physical acts he is accused of." Walter said he expected the jury to return some guilty verdict. The question was whether it would be first or second degree murder. They argued that there was no premeditation to support a first degree murder verdict. The prosecutor told the jury that David's former classmates would speak of a longstanding game that preceded
50:33 Speaker 00 the murders. This game included talk by David about how he would kill his family and go on a trip funded by his family's credit cards and cash. They also introduced David's notebook, which contained the list of things to do before and after the murders to support their premeditation argument. The defense questioned if there was a way to tell when the entries were made.
50:58 Speaker 01 I mean, this is not good.
51:00 Speaker 00 For him?
51:01 Speaker 01 Yeah.
51:01 Speaker 00 And the defense? I would say no, because there does seem to be quite a bit of evidence of premeditation, right? On the part of David Brahm, two friends of David's testified that he had an imaginary friend called Justin Time, who was almost like a part of him. Okay. I mean, who didn't have an imaginary friend growing up? I didn't have one at 16 years old, though. I have to be honest about that. When I was little, little, sure. You know, you have an imaginary friend you talk to. I was an only child. I needed one. You probably didn't need one because you had two brothers and you were all beating the you-know-what out of each other.
51:44 Speaker 01 That's true.
51:44 Speaker 00 Day in and day out.
51:45 Speaker 01 I have one now, though.
51:47 Speaker 00 Because you need one.
51:49 Speaker 01 It's right over there.
51:50 Speaker 00 I see. Justin Time. That's such a strange name.
51:54 Speaker 01 I know. I'm thinking, is it a play on words?
51:58 Speaker 00 Why are you thinking that? Yes, obviously, it's a play on words. You think that the imaginary friend's name just happens to be Justin? And his last name is Time? Not Justin Time?
52:12 Speaker 01 Kind of like that one Patreon member we got a couple of weeks ago.
52:16 Speaker 00 Who was that? You can't remember, can you?
52:18 Speaker 01 I can't.
52:19 Speaker 00 It's a good story. This makes for good pot.
52:21 Speaker 01 It does, doesn't it?
52:22 Speaker 00 Yeah.
52:23 Speaker 01 It was like, uh, Richard, uh...
52:25 Speaker 00 Oh, Richard Handler?
52:27 Speaker 01 Yeah, Richard Handler.
52:28 Speaker 00 I got you.
52:29 Speaker 01 Yeah.
52:30 Speaker 00 Justin Time was both a pen name and a fictional character. David used in many short stories and poems. David never said he was Justin Time, but the character was who he wanted to be. One girl testified, as quoted by The Post Bolton, "In school, he was the clown. He made everybody laugh. He made everybody smile. Outside, he was serious. He was darker. He was still sweet and gentle and kind, but he was serious." David told one of his friends, "He thought about ending his life every single second of the day."
53:05 Speaker 01 It's rough, man.
53:06 Speaker 00 Yeah, if that's the truth, that is a horrible way to live. David's former girlfriend Catherine Rigmar testified that they broke up because David was too depressing. He was preoccupied with death and suicide and wrote morbid poetry. The girl who David spent the morning of February 18th with testified that David described in detail how he killed his parents. David said he just kept on swinging for about half an hour.
53:36 Speaker 01 Well, with 20 some hits on his dad, 19 some hits on his mom, and the rest of the hits on his siblings. Yeah, I guess it probably was nonstop swinging.
53:46 Speaker 00 But I don't know how many people have split wood. A half hour of splitting wood is one heck of a workout.
53:54 Speaker 01 Yeah, for sure.
53:55 Speaker 00 Swinging a fairly heavy axe that many times is not the easiest thing to do. David said it was really gross and told her that someone has to be sick to be doing something like this.
54:10 Speaker 01 So is that him trying to label himself?
54:13 Speaker 00 Well, it's almost like he's talking about himself in the third person, right? Like this wasn't really me, even though it was. In closing arguments, the defense said David didn't plan to kill his family. It was an act of impulsivity carried out amidst screaming and crying. The prosecution argued that it was a clear case of premeditation. David had a plan that he discussed with his friends. He wrote down lists and followed through with many of the things on that list. The jury was instructed not to consider evidence of David's mental illness in phase one deliberations. And I thought, you know, to me, this is a very interesting part of this case, kind of the two phases.
54:58 Speaker 00 Now we're used to the guilt or innocence phase and then the sentencing.
55:04 Speaker 01 Right.
55:04 Speaker 00 But this is different. On October 3rd, 1989, David Brom was found guilty of four counts of first degree murder. So then in phase two, it was David's defense who bore the burden of proving his legal mental illness. The defense presented testimony from a psychiatrist who concluded that David didn't understand that killing his parents and siblings was wrong, and therefore he was legally insane. The state called four psychiatrists. Two of the four concluded David was not legally insane at the time of the murders, and two didn't offer an opinion as to his mental illness.
55:45 Speaker 00 However, all of the experts agree that David suffered some form of mental illness or impairment.
55:52 Speaker 01 I mean, to swing an axe at your parents and your siblings, I think there's something there.
56:00 Speaker 00 Well, I think it's hard for most people to believe that someone doesn't know that that is wrong. Now, there are some people who are mentally ill to the point where they don't know right from wrong. But is that David Brom? One person saying yes, two people are saying no, two other experts aren't sure, or they're not willing to say either way.
56:28 Speaker 01 Is this him playing like the Edward Norton role, you know, in that one, that one movie?
56:34 Speaker 00 Oh, the one with Richard Gere?
56:36 Speaker 01 Yeah.
56:36 Speaker 00 That was a good movie.
56:37 Speaker 01 It was a really good movie.
56:38 Speaker 00 According to the Post-Bolton, Dr. James Stevens testified for the defense that David was diagnosed with atypical psychosis, depression, and multiple personalities. David didn't know the nature of his acts or that they were wrong. However, the Texas psychiatrist who treated David daily for over six months testified that David was depressed and had borderline personality disorder, but was not psychotic. Dr. Carl Momquist testified that David did not see himself as a criminal. He felt relief after the killings. He quoted David as saying during his psychiatric evaluation, "Until this all happened, it was
57:20 Speaker 00 like I had such a great burden, which I could not escape from. It was like it took a great deal to make me laugh. The feeling I had inside me was like I was full, not of food, but rather that I couldn't handle anymore. It was like if a feather was put on me, I'd collapse." David first thought about taking his life, but that expanded to killing his entire family. He didn't want Ricky and Diane to feel sad about the loss of their parents. He also felt he had to kill the family so no one could interfere with him carrying out the acts.
57:55 Speaker 01 That's his reasoning.
57:57 Speaker 00 But what acts are we talking about here? Him ending his life? Because I feel like if that's what he wanted to do, he could have done that without killing his family.
58:10 Speaker 01 Sure.
58:11 Speaker 00 The incident that triggered the murders was David's argument with his father on February 17th. Bernard pushed him into a table and said if his attitude didn't improve, he would lose his albums. David said he thought about running away, but it hadn't worked for Joe. He thought about killing himself, but also said, "I thought my parents were the only burdens I had left to relieve all the stress and tension." David stayed up all night thinking. At 3:00 a.m., he got an axe from the garage and went to his parents' bedroom. He remembered standing in the doorway with the axe. According to David, he said, "When I think about it, I get kind of sick. What I remember is gross.
58:54 Speaker 00 I walk into my parents' room and they're asleep. I have the axe. There's a lot of screaming in there. I'm screaming, they're screaming. I was scared. I don't remember hitting anyone. I could hear the screaming though, and it went on and on. Then I remember being in my room and packing things like blankets. All the lights were on and I had to go into each room. My brother was in his bedroom and my mother and sister in the hall. There was blood everywhere." David said, "I've always held in my aggression and I don't know how I could have done it. The anger inside me grew and grew. When I was in the room those hours, I felt angry, frustrated and confused when I dwelled on it.
59:39 Speaker 00 I think I snapped."
59:41 Speaker 01 I think he did too. I mean, he's sitting there thinking about it, thinking about it. And just like that, come 3 o'clock, he makes the decision to go out to the garage, grab the axe, and he's gonna do this thing. He's 16 years old. He decides to do this.
59:58 Speaker 00 But is that a snap? That's, that's the thing that I have, or the question I have. Is it a question of snapping? Or, you know, as he put it, "I snapped," when you've been talking and plotting and planning ahead of time?
1:00:15 Speaker 01 Maybe not snapped, but there has to be something that finally pushes you to do something so violent. Now, you can talk about it all day. "I'm gonna kill them. I'm gonna kill them. You know, I hate them. I'm gonna kill them." But are you really gonna do anything? But what pushes you to actually finally go out, put your hands on an axe and have the... The nerve to walk up to your dad and do what he did.
1:00:44 Speaker 00 Yeah, but see, I think with him, it was more than just talk. It was planning, right? He had written it down. He had told friends what he was going to do with the money he would get from killing his parents. On October 15th, 1989, the jury found David guilty of four counts of first degree murder during Phase Two. On October 16th, David received four life sentences, three to run consecutively, and the fourth to run concurrently to the last consecutive term. Under state law at the time, David was required to serve 17 and a half years for each life sentence for a total of 52 and a half years in prison before he would be eligible for parole.
1:01:29 Speaker 00 According to the outlet KTTC, the judge's decision to make the sentences for the murder of his younger siblings concurrent was controversial. Many questioned why Diane's life seemed to be worth less than her younger brother's. Some argued that the judge was giving David leniency because he was a juvenile. In 2023, Minnesota lawmakers ended life without parole for juveniles. The new law changed the minimum term of imprisonment for individuals under 18 at the time of the offense, which made David eligible for parole after serving a total of 30 years.
1:02:09 Speaker 00 KTTC reported that during his 36 years in prison, David had just one violation. Dated August 24th, 1992, he was cited for Rule 500, violation of special unit regulations. At the time, David's housing unit couldn't have more than four people in the cell at any given time, and he was observed with five people. Okay, for 36 years in prison, that's the only thing you're ever busted for?
1:02:38 Speaker 01 That's pretty good.
1:02:39 Speaker 00 Either you're really good at hiding stuff, or you're just not going against the rules. David's review before the parole board took place in January 2025. He apologized and said he was struggling with depression at the time of the murders. K T T C quoted him as saying, I thought these things were going to last forever. And I knew I couldn't live with that forever. And in that cloud of depression, I started to believe other people were at fault for the way I felt. On July 29th, 2025, David Brom, now 53 years old, was granted work release.
1:03:20 Speaker 00 He'll be residing in a halfway house in the Twin Cities area, per the Minnesota DOC. His work release involves case management, supervision, and GPS monitoring. David's recent release refocused attention on this older case and brought up important conversations on laws regarding juvenile sentencing for violent crimes. So it's a timely case in that he just got this or was granted this work release. Obviously, the murders go all the way back to the, you know, the late eighties. And I do think, you know, as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, it's these types of cases that can sometimes divide people.
1:04:04 Speaker 00 You know, anytime you're talking about mental health, right? You know, who's right and who's wrong about the state of this guy's mental health? You have people saying, he didn't know what he was doing at the time was wrong. You have others saying, yeah, he was depressed. He had some mental health issues, but he knew what he was doing.
1:04:26 Speaker 01 And he should be held accountable.
1:04:27 Speaker 00 Yes, those are difficult sometimes.
1:04:31 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean, you got a juvenile with or without mental illness, depending on how you look at it, or some form of mental illness. It's going to be tough. And like you said, it's going to be a split decision.
1:04:44 Speaker 00 Yeah, let's not discount the fact that he was 16. You know, obviously what he did was horrible. It's hard to fully know what he went through, you know, inside the home. There was a lot of talk of abuse and possibly there was quite a bit of it. We don't know for sure, though. I think what gets me, what I keep coming back to is the level of premeditation. You know, talking about what he was going to do with this money that he would get once his family was dead, the writing of the list. I don't know that this was a case of an
1:05:24 Speaker 00 argument that happened the night before that caused him to sit up all night and then just snap in a rage. It just seems like there was much more to it than that that had been building up for a while. What I don't know is exactly what role mental illness played and how can we know for sure?
1:05:48 Speaker 01 Yeah, I don't think we can.
1:05:50 Speaker 00 But he was so young when he killed his family that, you know, he's, he's now like our age.
1:05:58 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:05:59 Speaker 00 And, and can still, if he gets out, live a life. I don't know what that life will be.
1:06:06 Speaker 01 Well, I'm sure it's gonna be better than what he's been living in prison.
1:06:10 Speaker 00 Oh, absolutely. But if he had been 18 or 19?
1:06:14 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:06:15 Speaker 00 I don't think he's ever getting out.
1:06:16 Speaker 01 No, no.
1:06:17 Speaker 00 For that type of heinous quadruple murder.
1:06:21 Speaker 01 He's in there for life.
1:06:22 Speaker 00 Yeah, there's no doubt about it. That's it for our episode on David Brom. We got a voicemail. You want to check that out?
1:06:28 Speaker 01 Let's check it out.
1:06:29 Speaker 03 Hey, Mike and Gibby. I've been listening for a while and never thought I would actually call and leave a voicemail, but here it goes. I am listening to your James Van Callis episode and I got to the part where you're talking about the victim having studied German and being really into it. And it's just funny because that's actually my first language. And a lot of my really close friends I ended up finding because we had a common bond over them loving the German language while being American. So my best friend is.
1:07:10 Speaker 03 Studied it in college to become, do international business and all of that. So there are a lot of people out there who study German and really enjoy studying German. So I was just gonna give you a little clue on that. But love the podcast. I once listened to you guys on a trip from California to Kansas and Oklahoma and back. So that was a lot of hours of true crime all the time. And I'm getting back into it, as you can see, since I'm only on the James MacHealth episode this season, but you guys are doing great and love listening to you. Thanks, bye.
1:07:47 Speaker 01 Nein, nein.
1:07:50 Speaker 00 Is that all the German you know?
1:07:52 Speaker 01 That's it.
1:07:53 Speaker 00 Okay.
1:07:53 Speaker 01 I think it means no, I don't know.
1:07:55 Speaker 00 I think it does too.
1:07:58 Speaker 01 It's from Stalik eight or nineteen or whatever. Captain, I was gonna get ready to say Captain Kirk.
1:08:04 Speaker 00 Yeah, I don't know what you're saying. I don't think you know what you're saying.
1:08:08 Speaker 01 You don't remember Stalik, Stalik? What the hell's it called?
1:08:16 Speaker 00 I think that's the first problem is you're messing that word up.
1:08:19 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:08:20 Speaker 00 I know what you're, what you're trying to say, but I get it. German to me sounds like, and maybe it's just how it comes out, it sounds like such an angry language.
1:08:30 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:08:31 Speaker 00 Like people are angry when they're not even saying things that, that really they're mad about.
1:08:38 Speaker 01 Like, I love you, you know, but however you say it in German.
1:08:43 Speaker 01 The women are like, okay.
1:08:46 Speaker 00 But we appreciate the voicemail very much.
1:08:48 Speaker 01 Yeah, we do.
1:08:49 Speaker 00 All right, buddy, that is it for another episode of True Crime All the Time. So for Mike.
1:08:53 Speaker 01 And Gabby.
1:08:53 Speaker 00 Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.
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