Pod Insights True Crime All The Time Rodney Alcala Part 1 About this episode Rodney Alcala was an American serial killer and sex offender who was sentenced to death in California for multiple murders. Alcala has been conclusively linked to eight murders, but authorities suspect he could have killed over 100 people during his travels around the country.
Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the infamous serial killer Rodney Alacala. In part one, we’ll cover Alcala’s early life, his known crimes in the late ‘60s and ‘70s, and how sentencing laws at the time allowed him to continue preying on vulnerable young women and girls.
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1:47 Speaker 00 Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode 351 of the True Crime All the Time Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson, and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?
1:57 Speaker 01 Hey, I'm doing good. How about you?
1:58 Speaker 00 I'm doing great. It's awesome to see you. We just got done doing our Patreon episode where you were kind of catching me up on CrimeCon.
2:07 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:08 Speaker 00 And I was telling you how Crappy my weekend was sitting here missing Crime Con.
2:13 Speaker 01 I know, I feel so bad for you.
2:15 Speaker 00 Yeah, it did kinda stink, but uh, there was a reason for it and uh, I'll, I'll definitely make the next one.
2:22 Speaker 01 We had a great, good time.
2:23 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's awesome. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Kim.
2:28 Speaker 01 Hey, Kim.
2:29 Speaker 00 Holly Cobb.
2:30 Speaker 01 What's going on, Holly?
2:31 Speaker 00 Heather Thomas.
2:32 Speaker 01 Hey Heather.
2:33 Speaker 00 Anthony Hammett.
2:34 Speaker 01 What's happening Anthony?
2:35 Speaker 00 Donkey Daddy jumped out at our highest level.
2:38 Speaker 01 Donkey Daddy?
2:39 Speaker 00 Yeah.
2:39 Speaker 01 Okay.
2:40 Speaker 00 Which you cannot say with a straight face.
2:42 Speaker 01 I cannot.
2:44 Speaker 00 Uh, Echo.
2:45 Speaker 01 Hey Echo, Echo, Echo.
2:48 Speaker 00 You also cannot say with a straight face. We had Zach Loveland.
2:52 Speaker 01 Hey, thanks Zach.
2:53 Speaker 00 Charles B.
2:54 Speaker 01 Hey, there's Charles.
2:54 Speaker 00 And last but not least, Oisin.
2:57 Speaker 01 There's, you gotta do that right. Oisin?
2:59 Speaker 00 Yeah.
2:59 Speaker 01 Yeah.
3:00 Speaker 00 I'd, I'd do it how I do it.
3:02 Speaker 01 Yeah, you do. Yeah.
3:03 Speaker 00 And then we go back into the vault.
3:06 Speaker 00 This week, we selected Zoe Darling Maxwell.
3:10 Speaker 01 Thanks Zoe Darling.
3:11 Speaker 00 So when it comes to Patreon, we appreciate the new support, the continued support, all of it.
3:17 Speaker 01 You know, we're at 351.
3:19 Speaker 00 Yes.
3:20 Speaker 01 I realize that Crime Con, I added a hundred to the episode numbers to a couple of people. I'm like, yeah, we got, we're getting ready to do 451.
3:30 Speaker 00 No, we are at 451.
3:32 Speaker 01 Oh, we are at 451?
3:33 Speaker 00 Yes, I said it wrong.
3:34 Speaker 01 Oh, okay. I'm like, wait a minute.
3:36 Speaker 00 No, you're right.
3:37 Speaker 01 Oh, good.
3:38 Speaker 00 I'm wrong.
3:39 Speaker 01 Normally I'm wrong.
3:40 Speaker 00 Yes, but this time you are a hundred percent right. I don't know why I wrote it down as 351, it's 451.
3:48 Speaker 01 That's perfect.
3:49 Speaker 00 Yeah.
3:49 Speaker 01 Yeah.
3:50 Speaker 00 So thank you for correcting me. Cause a lot of times, well, a lot of times, you know, you're either half asleep, you're not paying attention. And so I'll say something that's absolutely categorically wrong.
4:05 Speaker 01 Yeah.
4:05 Speaker 00 And you just let me go with it.
4:06 Speaker 01 Right, yeah. Cause I assume you're always right, cause you normally are always right.
4:10 Speaker 00 No, but I, I so appreciate you, uh.
4:13 Speaker 01 Yeah.
4:13 Speaker 00 You, uh, pointing that out because yeah, I've got us off by a hundred.
4:18 Speaker 01 All right, 451. It's a big one for us.
4:21 Speaker 00 It is a big one. Now 450 was a big one. And like I said last week, normally we would do a heavy hitter.
4:28 Speaker 01 Yeah.
4:28 Speaker 00 Or, or what we would have always called a big timer. I miscalculated the weeks, so.
4:36 Speaker 00 You know, I missed it by a week, but we're going to be talking about Rodney Alcala, which is a huge case.
4:44 Speaker 01 That is a huge case.
4:45 Speaker 00 But first I want to talk about what we have on, out on True Crime All Time Unsolved. We're talking about this guy named Woody Kelly, who was a successful investment counselor and really kind of well-known in his community, well-respected. In June 1985, his yacht was found abandoned on Lake Michigan, but Woody was nowhere to be found. I think what's so intriguing about this case is that, you know, things started to come out in dribs and drabs that made it seem as though he probably didn't meet with foul play and that there were some other things going on.
5:24 Speaker 01 Yeah.
5:25 Speaker 00 So you'll have to tune in to check that out.
5:27 Speaker 01 Give it a listen.
5:28 Speaker 00 All right, you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All The Time?
5:32 Speaker 01 Oh, I'm excited for this.
5:33 Speaker 00 So Rodney Alcala was an American serial killer and sex offender who was sentenced to death in California for multiple murders. He's been conclusively linked to eight murders, but authorities suspect that he could have killed over a hundred people during his travels around the country.
5:52 Speaker 01 I definitely feel like he's done more than eight.
5:54 Speaker 00 Oh, there's, I don't think there's any doubt about that. And we'll get into why they believe that is and the evidence behind it. And as we talked about on Patreon, you know, we were set to do this case all the way back in, I think, 2018.
6:11 Speaker 01 Yeah.
6:11 Speaker 00 Our second year of the podcast. And one of our other kind of fellow podcasts came out with an episode or multiple episodes on Rodney, right before we were getting ready to do it.
6:24 Speaker 01 Right, yeah.
6:25 Speaker 00 So we didn't want to step on them. And so we shelved it. I don't know why it's taken this long for us to get back to him because it is a very fascinating case.
6:36 Speaker 01 I remember that because I was going to take the lead on that.
6:39 Speaker 00 Sure.
6:39 Speaker 01 On that episode.
6:40 Speaker 00 Yeah.
6:41 Speaker 01 And then I couldn't do it, so I had to pull back.
6:44 Speaker 00 And you've never? Thought about doing it ever again.
6:47 Speaker 01 Yep.
6:48 Speaker 00 So in part one, we'll cover Alcala's early life, his known crimes in the late 60s and 70s, and how sentencing laws at the time allowed him to continue preying on vulnerable young women and girls. Rodney James Alcala was born on August 23rd, 1943, in San Antonio, Texas. His birth name was Rodrigo Jacques Alcala. Rodney was the third of four children, born to Raoul Alcala Boukour and Anna Maria Gutierrez. His older brother Raoul was born in 1941, followed by his older sister Marie Therese, who was born in 1942.
7:33 Speaker 00 Rodney's younger sister Maria Christine was born in 1947. But unlike a lot of the serial killers that you and I have covered over the years, Rodney had a relatively normal childhood and was not abused by his family.
7:49 Speaker 01 Which is surprising, once you realize what he does. You know, because so many serial killers have that background, you think there'd be some type of connection.
7:59 Speaker 00 Well, I think there is some type of connection, but as we've talked about often, right? A lot of people who go through abuse in childhood don't turn out to be murderers. And also, some serial killers don't have that in their background. So it's not a one size fits all thing, but I do think there is some, what's the word, Gibbs? Correlation between the two, maybe?
8:26 Speaker 01 Yeah.
8:26 Speaker 00 Alcala completed most of his education in Catholic schools. He earned excellent grades, showed above-average intelligence, and took his studies very seriously. He was considered a respectful and kind student, and no one ever reported any problems with him. And again, you know, you can look at that in a couple of different ways. A lot of serial killers have very low IQs. Some have very high IQs. But him being considered respectful, kind, nobody even having a problem with him. I don't know that that's the norm, right? When it comes to serial killers, most of the time, there's something in their past.
9:11 Speaker 01 Right.
9:11 Speaker 00 That, that you would look at and say, oh, that's probably a red flag. So far, I don't know that we have anything, right? When it comes to Rodney.
9:21 Speaker 01 Yeah, so far it just seems like he's a normal individual.
9:25 Speaker 00 In 1951, Alcala's maternal grandmother, who lived with the family, became ill and wanted to spend her final years in Mexico. The family moved and Alcala enrolled in an American school. His grandmother eventually passed away. In 1954, Alcala's father abandoned the family. That year, his mother and the children relocated to Los Angeles. Now, like I said, we haven't seen anything that you would consider to be a red flag. But he is having things happen in his life that maybe could be triggers, right? People are triggered by different types of things.
10:08 Speaker 01 Well, maybe with him moving to Mexico and then moving back to the States and, and also his dad abandoning the family.
10:17 Speaker 00 And, and his, the loss of his grandmother, these are all types of things.
10:20 Speaker 01 Sure.
10:21 Speaker 00 Right? That could possibly be triggers. During Alcala's last semester of high school, he felt like he'd had enough religious education since he'd attended Catholic school most of his life and insisted on attending public school. In 1960, he graduated from public high school in Montebello. According to his peers, Alcala had plenty of friends and he went on plenty of dates. He played piano, did cross country and was on the yearbook planning committee. Again, Gibbs, I think what is standing out to me is that this doesn't seem like the typical bio of a serial killer.
11:05 Speaker 00 The problem is, as we know, there really is no typical playbook.
11:10 Speaker 01 Well, that's true.
11:11 Speaker 00 When it comes to serial killers, they have all kinds of different childhoods, experiences. But so far, he seems well-liked, has a big friend group, he's not a loner.
11:26 Speaker 01 And similar to you, he plays the piano, loved cross country, and more importantly, was on the yearbook planning committee, which I know you headed up on your senior year.
11:37 Speaker 00 I didn't head it up, but that's the only true statement you actually made. I was on the yearbook committee.
11:42 Speaker 01 Were you really?
11:43 Speaker 00 Mm-hmm.
11:44 Speaker 01 I knew it.
11:44 Speaker 00 And that was when my girlfriend accidentally stabbed me in the buttocks with an X-acto knife.
11:51 Speaker 01 Oh, accidentally?
11:52 Speaker 00 Uh-huh.
11:53 Speaker 01 Is what she told you?
11:54 Speaker 00 That's what she told me, anyway. On June 19th, 1961, Alcala enlisted in the army. It seemed like a logical thing for him to do because his older brother was at West Point. Up to this point, his life had been mostly normal and he'd never been in any type of serious trouble. And that is one thing, right, that's standing out. Has to.
12:18 Speaker 01 Yeah.
12:19 Speaker 00 He entered a program in North Carolina to become a paratrooper. He served as a clerk and was assigned to Fort Campbell on the Kentucky-Tennessee border, according to ABC. Alcala's father died unexpectedly. In January 1962, he attended the funeral before returning to a station. While assigned to Fort Campbell, Alcala went AWOL multiple times.
12:45 Speaker 01 You know, the circle back to he joined the army. We've had other serial killers that served in the armed forces.
12:53 Speaker 00 Mm-hmm. There, there is thought by some that, you know, that has played a part in, in the ultimate behavior of some serial killers. But you also have to think about the time, right? A lot of this is sixties and seventies where, you know, a lot of, a lot more people were serving.
13:13 Speaker 01 Well, that's true.
13:15 Speaker 00 Especially when you get into the seventies, people being called up for Vietnam and all that. In June, 1963, Rodney took a routine weekend pass to Nashville. According to an army report, he stole a vehicle and robbed another driver of their credit card, then fled to New York City. After leaving a bar in the city, he spotted a young woman walking down the street and followed her a short distance before striking her with a Coke bottle. But she was able to escape. So I mean, I feel like we've really taken a huge turn in his life.
13:53 Speaker 01 Like a quantum leap?
13:54 Speaker 00 Yeah. Well, I don't know about that, but I don't know if it's Scott Bakula type stuff here, but, uh, you know, all the things we said about him, he kind of seemed like an all-American kid growing up and, you know, doing the right things, had friends. Now all of a sudden, it seems like after joining the army, things started to go downhill for him.
14:17 Speaker 01 Stealing cars and hitting a woman with a Coke bottle.
14:21 Speaker 00 Does any of that have to do with his father dying unexpectedly? You know, all of a sudden he starts going AWOL multiple times. Alcala traveled to Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, where he was arrested and charged with being AWOL while he was being transported back to Fort Campbell. He escaped during a change of trains in Atlanta and hitchhiked all the way to California.
14:46 Speaker 01 Man, that is a long hitchhike way to go.
14:48 Speaker 00 I mean, When you look at the country, right, Atlanta to California, that's the span of the east coast to the west coast. I'm sure there are farther spans if you go up into like the northeast.
15:03 Speaker 01 Sure.
15:04 Speaker 00 Like Maine or something to California, but that's a long way.
15:07 Speaker 01 It's a healthy distance.
15:09 Speaker 00 And hitchhiking, no less. You are having to get a lot of rides. I can't imagine you're finding someone who's going to take you all the way to California.
15:21 Speaker 01 Get lucky like that?
15:22 Speaker 00 Yeah, they'll take you so far and then you have to get out and then you have to get somebody else to take you part of the way. Alcala's mother and sisters were shocked when he showed up at their door and told them what happened. They advised him to turn himself in. While staying at home, he exposed himself to his youngest sister. She became hysterical, per the military report, and Private Alcala stated he didn't know if he wanted to have sexual relations with her.
15:53 Speaker 01 Okay, getting into the disturbing stuff now.
15:58 Speaker 00 Well, absolutely. So either his life has completely changed, or he had some things going on even earlier, but was able to keep them completely hidden from everyone around him. There's only two explanations.
16:16 Speaker 01 Yeah.
16:16 Speaker 00 It's gotta be one of those two.
16:18 Speaker 01 But to say, I don't know if I want to have sexual relations with my sister or not, really disturbing.
16:24 Speaker 00 Well, so is exposing yourself to your youngest sister.
16:27 Speaker 01 Yeah.
16:28 Speaker 00 He turned himself in at a local recruiting station. His superiors believed he suffered a nervous breakdown. Experts with the Army Hospital at Fort Ord, California, determined Alcala knew right from wrong, but was, quote, "totally unsuitable for further military duty." Okay, I don't think that's a hard determination to make.
16:50 Speaker 01 I think that determination was probably made when he turned himself in for being AWOL so many times.
16:56 Speaker 00 He was diagnosed with chronic severe antisocial personality disorder. He was also estimated to have a near genius IQ of 135. So he's not quite Mike Gibson.
17:11 Speaker 00 Mensa level.
17:13 Speaker 01 No, he's not on 170, but he's close. I mean, he's getting there.
17:15 Speaker 00 That's a very, very high IQ. Alcala pleaded guilty to being AWOL and paid a fine. His rank was reduced, but in February 1964, he received an honorable discharge without even a single blemish on his record. And that's a little bit surprising just in the fact of, you know, he went AWOL multiple times. But maybe I guess that wasn't enough to get a less than honorable, or whatever it would have been called back then, discharge. Because it's a big difference, right? And, and the benefits that you get.
17:53 Speaker 01 Absolutely, it is.
17:55 Speaker 00 Honorable versus, you know, one of the other ones.
17:58 Speaker 01 Plus, when you step out into the
18:00 Speaker 00 Real world?
18:01 Speaker 01 Real world, you know, you want to be able to say that you were honorably discharged.
18:06 Speaker 00 Well, I think if you're going for a job and stuff, it's probably going to make a big difference. But the thing with Rodney Alcala is I think we're going to see quite a bit of this. Right? He's done something and the punishment for doing that thing or being caught doesn't seem to ah, kind of line up with what you would expect it to be. But I don't know that that's uncommon with a number of serial killers. And Gibbs, how many times have we seen it? Right? They get caught early on, but they get what is essentially a slap on the wrist. They do a little bit of time, maybe. But they're out so quick, it's like, okay, why wouldn't I go back to doing what I want to do?
18:51 Speaker 00 Because if I get caught, what's the worst that can happen to me?
18:55 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's no big deal. So let me go ahead and do it again.
19:00 Speaker 00 After Alcala returned home, he began to feel more like himself. He enrolled in UCLA School of the Arts in Architecture. He graduated in 1968 with a fine arts degree. That year, he committed one of his first known violent crimes against a child. On the morning of September 25th, 1968, eight-year-old Tali Shapiro was walking to school along Sunset Boulevard in Hollywood when a car pulled up alongside her. The driver was a man in his twenties who offered her a ride. Tally was reluctant to accept. She told people years later, I told him I didn't talk
19:44 Speaker 00 to strangers. That is when he told me that he knew my parents. I really didn't want to get into the car, but I was raised to respect my elders. I didn't know to fear people.
19:57 Speaker 01 Man, think about what she said there. I didn't know to fear people.
20:02 Speaker 00 What is the sixties?
20:03 Speaker 01 Right.
20:04 Speaker 00 You know, when you and I were kids, it was pretty much all over the place, right? Don't talk to strangers. Don't get into cars with strangers. They used to have like, you know, public service announcements about stuff like that. I don't know how much of that they had in 1968, but you also have, you know, these individuals like a Rodney Alcala with a high IQ who, you know, could figure out what to say to people to maybe put them off guard. Hey, you know, I know your parents. I'm, I'm okay. It's okay to talk to me. It's okay to get into the car.
20:46 Speaker 01 Yeah. You're safe with me.
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21:59 Speaker 00 Call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org. Please play responsibly. 21 plus. Physically present in Connecticut, Michigan, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and West Virginia only. Void in Canada. Eligibility restrictions apply. Non-withdrawable spins issued at 50 spins per day for 20 days. Valid for select games only and expire each day after 24 hours. Spins values vary. See terms at casino.draftkings.com/promos. Ends November 22, 2026 at 11:59 p.m. Eastern Time. The man proposed they take a short detour to his home so that he could show her a poster.
22:42 Speaker 00 This is when Tally started to panic, but she couldn't get out of the moving vehicle. She doesn't remember going into the man's apartment or anything that happened afterwards. A driver named Donald Hanks had witnessed Tally getting into the car and felt something was wrong. He followed the driver to the apartment and called the police. Former LAPD Detective Chris Camacho went to the apartment and knocked on the door. A young man answered and said he was showering and needed to get dressed. Camacho gave him 10 seconds before he kicked the door in. He found Tally's body on the kitchen floor. She was barely breathing.
23:23 Speaker 00 She had suffered a severe head wound and was bleeding vaginally. A steel bar was placed over her neck. Detective Camacho thought she was dead and began searching the house for the suspect. Moments later, he returned to the kitchen and saw Tally trying to breathe. She was rushed to the hospital. She was in a coma for 32 days and spent months in recovery. So obviously, you know, what happened to this young girl was horrible. And it really is kind of amazing that she survived. And I want to go back to this guy named Donald Haynes, right?
24:01 Speaker 00 He's just an average Joe who happens to see something and have the wherewithal to, you know, understand that something doesn't appear to be right. And so he calls the police. If he doesn't do that, Gibbs, this young girl most likely dies.
24:23 Speaker 01 Yeah, we're telling a different story.
24:24 Speaker 00 Yeah. So, I mean, I think that's pretty amazing for him to have even, number one, noticed what's going on. But number two, and more importantly, realize the gravity of the situation.
24:38 Speaker 01 Yeah. A good thing Detective Camacho didn't waste any time either kicking that door in.
24:43 Speaker 00 Yeah, you're right, because, you know, we don't know how much time she had. The suspect had escaped out the back door. He was identified as 25-year-old Rodney Alcala, based on a UCLA student ID, left at the apartment. Inside the residence, the police found photography equipment and numerous photographs of young girls. LAPD Detective Steve Hodel worked the case after Alcala fled. Hodel interviewed acquaintances at UCLA. One of Alcala's professors told him, you have the wrong guy. He would never hurt a fly.
25:21 Speaker 01 And he really had him fooled.
25:23 Speaker 00 Yeah, I think this does go back to that notion of a person showing people what they want them to see. Right? Go back to his childhood. We already know he, I think he was having some messed up thoughts.
25:42 Speaker 01 Right.
25:43 Speaker 00 But I don't think anybody else knew about them.
25:46 Speaker 01 They just thought he was the perfect kid.
25:48 Speaker 00 Yeah. And here you have a professor saying, there's no way that this guy would, would do that sort of thing, because he had him snowed. Authorities later learned that Rodney had fled to New York City in September 1968. He was accepted into NYU under the alias John Berger. He claimed he studied under film director and producer Roman Polanski, but this has been debunked. Alcala graduated from NYU in June 1971. That same month, he murdered 23-year-old Cornelia Crilly, a flight attendant for Transworld Airlines.
26:31 Speaker 01 TWA. My grandfather worked there.
26:34 Speaker 00 It was huge.
26:35 Speaker 01 It was, yeah.
26:36 Speaker 00 I don't know the, the whole thing around it, how it got dismantled and probably bought up by, you know, other airlines.
26:47 Speaker 01 Leo, he ruined it.
26:49 Speaker 00 Leo ruined it. Kind of the same thing with Pan Am. Right? Pan Am was huge.
26:54 Speaker 01 It really was.
26:55 Speaker 00 According to 48 Hours, Cornelia was temporarily living in the Upper East Side with her new boyfriend Leon Borstein while she was waiting on her own apartment, which she was going to share with another flight attendant. Cornelia spent June 24th, 1971, moving in. When her boyfriend came home from work, he was surprised to find the door locked. She wasn't answering the phone. He called the police, who found Cornelia's body inside the apartment. A 2020 article on the case presents slightly different details. 2020 reports that on June 24th, Leon received a call from Cornelia's mother, who said she hadn't heard from her.
27:38 Speaker 00 Leon offered to check her apartment. She lived in a building where anyone could get inside without a key. He knocked on the door and received no response. So he called the police. Officers broke in through the back window and found Cornelia. So there's a little bit of a difference in reporting, but the end result is the same, right? Cornelia Crilly is dead inside her apartment. She had been strangled with her own stockings and a gag was placed in her mouth to keep her from screaming. She had also been raped and had a bite mark on her breast. Leon Borstein was the main suspect.
28:21 Speaker 01 Wonder what he felt when he walked in and saw his girlfriend?
28:24 Speaker 00 I'm sure it was something along the lines of utter devastation. What else could it be? And then later on, to be the main suspect. Now, I understand why that is, right? You're the new boyfriend. You are the person, if not finding the body, calling the police to come find the body. You're going to be looked at for sure. Borstein, who later went on to become chief special prosecutor for New York City, said he was devastated by his girlfriend's death. Leon suspected Cornelio could have met the killer while moving into her new apartment.
29:04 Speaker 00 He told OC Weekly, "I can easily see her invite someone up to help her move the furniture. She was a very secure child of the 60s. She wouldn't think anything like this would happen to her."
29:18 Speaker 01 Nor would a lot of people back then.
29:20 Speaker 00 I think you kind of heard it in his quote. He was surprised to find the door locked. I mean, how many people who live in New York City right now don't lock their apartment door?
29:31 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah.
29:33 Speaker 00 Very few, right?
29:34 Speaker 01 Exactly.
29:34 Speaker 00 Even Seinfeld would lock his sometimes. Now, he couldn't all the time because if he did, then Kramer couldn't do his
29:42 Speaker 01 Bustin' move.
29:43 Speaker 00 His bustin' move. Rodney Alcala was not a suspect in the Krilly murder. However, he left the city and moved to New Hampshire, where he was hired as an arts and drama counselor at New Beginnings, a summer camp in Georges Mills. He changed the spelling of his alias from John Burger with an E to John Burger with a U.
30:07 Speaker 01 Like a hamburger.
30:08 Speaker 00 Yeah, more like a hamburger. Back in 1969, the FBI put Rodney on the most wanted list.
30:18 Speaker 00 And this had to have come from the, the Tali Shapiro attack, but also, you know, probably had something to do with the amount of material, the photographs of young girls that they found, because it's a big deal, right? To be put on the FBI's most wanted list. I know you've been trying to get off of that for a very long time.
30:43 Speaker 01 I have been. It's not easy. Once you're on.
30:45 Speaker 00 No.
30:47 Speaker 01 It means many things. People aspire to want to be on lists.
30:51 Speaker 00 That's not one of them.
30:52 Speaker 01 No.
30:53 Speaker 00 In the summer of 1971, two campers went to the local post office and they saw Rodney's photo on a most wanted poster. They realized he was their camp counselor and reported it to their dean who called the police. The camp director confirmed John Berger was his employee. On August 12th, 1971, agents arrived at the camp and arrested Alcala. He was extradited back to California. According to police documents, he told Detective Steve Hodl at the time, I've been trying to forget what happened. I have forgotten all about Rod Alcala and
31:34 Speaker 00 what he did. So he's not even Rodney anymore. He's John Berger. What Rod did, that's in the past.
31:42 Speaker 01 So what was he thinking? That he was just going to change his name and move on with his life and not pay for what he did?
31:48 Speaker 00 I think that's exactly what he was thinking. Why else would you, you know, change your name, come up with an alias? It's because you don't want to be caught. You want your freedom. You want to keep doing maybe some of the things that you want to do. But first and foremost, you want to stay out of jail or prison. Hodl told OC Weekly, I go back and find out that he had reinvented himself. He had new ID. He went back to college in New York. He just repeated out there. He was a class A con man and I recognized how dangerous he was. He was able to con people as an intelligent, refined person. And that is a dangerous combination. And I think this is a theme that we've touched on before.
32:33 Speaker 00 You know, it's kind of the oddest tool, Henry Lee Lucas serial killer.
32:41 Speaker 00 Versus, you know, like a Rodney Alcala, Ted Bundy. Those are two very different types of individuals. One, you would see walking on the sidewalk and think, oh, I don't want to tangle with this person. Exactly. The other, you would see a pleasant looking person. And if they asked you for help, you would think, oh, I should help this person. Yeah, they're not gonna hurt me. No, on top of that, that they have high level IQs and are master con men, master manipulators. That is a very dangerous combination. Really dangerous.
33:24 Speaker 00 By the time Alcala was arrested, in the Tali Shapiro case, her family had relocated to Mexico. They didn't want her to testify at trial. And without her testimony, prosecutors were forced to offer Rodney a deal. Instead of being convicted of rape and attempted murder, he pleaded guilty to child molestation. He received a sentence of one year to life in May 1972. One year to life. Yeah, so there's a couple of things, you know, regarding this to stand out to me. One, you know, the family has to make a decision.
34:04 Speaker 00 Do they want their, you know, young daughter in this case to have to testify, to have to sit in court? And relive some very terrible, horrible moments. Now, on the one hand, it could help put this guy away for a very long time. But what's it going to do to her? So that's, uh, you know, something that that has to be taken into consideration. And then, you know, obviously, the one year to life is very strange. Now, at the time, indeterminate sentencing was pretty commonplace.
34:43 Speaker 00 Judges sentenced the defendant to a range of time, instead of a specific time to be served. And parole boards later determined when the inmate had been reformed. By the time indeterminate sentencing came to an end in California, Alcala was already out of prison. He served only 34 months in prison for his crimes against Tali Shapiro. In August 1974, a state prison psychiatrist determined that he had improved considerably, and he was released on parole in Los Angeles, under the stipulation that he register as a sex offender.
35:23 Speaker 01 So less than three years.
35:25 Speaker 00 Yeah, and for what he did, that's shocking, right? Now, he only pleaded guilty to child molestation, but that on its own, Gibbs, should be more than three years. And I think that was the big problem with the indeterminate sentencing, and why it eventually went by the wayside. You know, a guy like Rodney Alcala, is he going to be able to fool a psychiatrist? Yeah, at some point. He can keep it up long enough to make it seem as though he's reformed.
36:01 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think he can definitely manipulate a psychologist, and did.
36:07 Speaker 00 Yeah, I think that's exactly what he did. Retired LAPD detective Steve Hodl told OC Weekly, "My impression was that it was his first sex crime, and we got him early, and society is relatively safe now. I had no idea in two years he would be out and continue his reign of terror and horror. I expected he was put away and society was safe. It's such a tragedy that so much more came after that." And I think that's what you and I rant and rave about quite a bit, right? Especially going back to the 60s, 70s.
36:45 Speaker 00 Even into maybe the early eighties, just the sentencing, especially when it came to crimes against women, it's always shocking to see how very little emphasis was placed on crimes against women.
37:03 Speaker 01 Really shameful.
37:05 Speaker 00 And in this case, you have a child, a female child, less than two months after he was released, Alcala kidnapped a 13 year old girl in Huntington Beach. On October 13th, 1974, Rodney approached 13 year old Julie J. As she was waiting for her school bus, after some hesitation, she accepted his offer to drive her to school. When they passed her destination, she asked to be let out several times. At first, Alcala said he was checking an apartment in the area and wouldn't be long. He eventually told her rudely to be quiet, and she became frightened. He stopped at the cliffs overlooking the beach. Julie
37:48 Speaker 00 tried to get out and run, but Alcala came around to her door and grabbed her arm. He steered her to a spot by the cliffs, forced her to smoke marijuana, and grabbed her leg when she tried to leave. He put her arms around her, gave her a French kiss, and asked if she liked boys, and was passionate when she was loaded, per people versus Alcala. This is a 13 year old girl.
38:14 Speaker 01 Yeah, weird, weird question.
38:16 Speaker 00 Yeah, weird to say the least, but you know, there's so much more behind it, right? Now, a ranger arrested both of them for the marijuana. This time, Alcala was only convicted of violating parole and giving marijuana to a minor. His parole was revoked, and he remained in prison until June 1977.
38:38 Speaker 01 Now, do you think Julie J. revisits that time in her head, especially years down the road?
38:45 Speaker 00 Oh, I don't think there's any doubt about it, especially, you know, once the full knowledge of who this guy really was comes to light, and the full kind of list of his depravities, she has to believe that she was saved by this ranger, or something, you know, really terrible would have happened to her. Alcala was released after he completed self-improvement programs and was declared reformed. He was required to report to his parole officer weekly. That summer, his parole
39:25 Speaker 00 officer approved his request to travel to New York to visit family. Orange County Senior Deputy DA Matt Murphy said in an interview with LA Weekly, "The 70s in California was insane as far as treatment of sexual predators. Rodney Alcala is a poster boy for this. It is a total comedy of outrageous stupidity." And I can't, I couldn't agree with him more. And Matt Murphy is kind of a, you know, a guy that you might not remember his name, but if you saw him, you'd know who he is.
40:02 Speaker 01 Right.
40:03 Speaker 00 Because he was involved in so many high-profile cases throughout the years. But I think he's absolutely right. You know, slap on the wrist. Okay, he's reformed. Let's let him out. Is he really reformed? Well, obviously, we're going to find out that Rodney wasn't. Authorities believe Alcala killed again approximately one week after returning to New York on July 15th, 1977. 23-year-old Ellen Jane Hoover went missing after leaving her Manhattan apartment. Ellen was an aspiring music conductor who came from a prominent family. Her father owned the famous nightclub, Ceres, in Hollywood. Her godfathers were Sammy Davis Jr. and Dean
40:48 Speaker 00 Martin.
40:49 Speaker 01 Some pretty good godfathers to have.
40:50 Speaker 00 Yeah. I mean, when you're talking the entertainment world, those, those two guys were at the top there for quite a long time. And obviously, you add in Frank Sinatra and, and people like that, but they were, they were everywhere. Ellen's friend Anita Feinberg recalled receiving a call from Ellen's mother, who said she hadn't heard from her and nobody could find her. The police searched Ellen's apartment and found a note in her calendar. She had marked that she was going to meet John Berger on July 15. Ellen's father hired a PI who put ads in the New York Times,
41:33 Speaker 00 seeking information about John Berger with a U or Burger with an E. But the suspect wasn't found. In September 1977, Alcala returned to Los Angeles and was hired as a typesetter at the LA Times. He was hired under his real name, despite his prior conviction, per OC Weekly. So there's a couple of things that that jump out at me. One of the things is, you know, he's, he's been locked up. He's out, he's back in for, you know, a stretch. He's out, but he is moving around. Now, he's using aliases at some point,
42:15 Speaker 00 but now he's back in LA and he decides to go back to his real name. Maybe that's because there's a private investigator looking for John Berger.
42:25 Speaker 01 Well, that's probably true. Still seems somewhat risky.
42:28 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, he could have used a completely different alias, but maybe by this point in 1977, aliases are a little harder to do. I don't know. I mean, he was able to get through college using an alias. Obviously, it wasn't that hard to do.
42:49 Speaker 01 Yeah.
42:50 Speaker 00 During this time, Alcala convinced hundreds of people. He was a professional photographer and took their photos for his portfolio. He preferred to photograph young women and girls. Authorities believed he used his charm to entrap and convince women to let him take their photos.
43:09 Speaker 01 I think it'd be hard to convince hundreds or thousands of people or whatever that you are, something you're not.
43:16 Speaker 00 Well, you've managed to convince hundreds of thousands of people that you're a podcaster.
43:26 Speaker 00 No, I'm just kidding. But you know, think about today's environment. If you walked up to, to somebody on the street and said, hey, you know, I'd like to take some photographs of you. Let's say it's a woman. I'd like to take some photographs of you for my quote unquote portfolio.
43:45 Speaker 01 Yeah.
43:46 Speaker 00 How's that gonna go over?
43:47 Speaker 01 Not gonna go very well, I don't think, today.
43:49 Speaker 00 No. Now, I'm sure he was very charming, maybe in the 1970s. With the technology that existed at the time, you could possibly find some, some women, some girls who were interested in becoming models and thought that this guy was a legitimate photographer.
44:13 Speaker 01 Right.
44:14 Speaker 00 Today, I don't know, people just go on to be a cam model, OnlyFans. I don't even know what all is out there. But they're certainly not taking pictures for their portfolio or letting strangers take pictures.
44:31 Speaker 01 Cam photos. That was funny.
44:34 Speaker 00 Well, I said cam models.
44:35 Speaker 01 Yeah. Cam model for a cam photo. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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46:00 Speaker 00 An LA Times coworker recalled Alcala sharing his photos with them. She told LA Weekly, I thought it was weird, but I was young. I didn't know anything. When I asked why he took the photos, he said their moms asked him to. I remember the girls were naked. Okay. All right, let's analyze that for a minute. It's, it's one thing if you want to be a model and you're going to get some headshots. But to tell a coworker that you took naked pictures of a bunch of girls and their moms asked you to. Who's buying that story? I get it. She said she was young. She didn't know anything. Yeah.
46:43 Speaker 00 But I'm wondering why he would even tell the story that way. It seems strange. Whose mom wants someone to take naked photos of their, their young daughter? Yeah, honey, it's okay. Go ahead and take your clothes off. Let this. This is how it's done. We don't know. Take your photo. Yeah, this is how everybody does it. Another victim was murdered in the fall. On November 10th, 1977, the body of 18 year old Jill Barcom was found on a dirt path on Franklin Canyon Drive in the Hollywood Hills. This was near Marlon Brando's house. I mean, this is a Godfather timeframe. Yeah. Marlon Brando. Marlon had a nice house. I know you had some key parties there.
47:27 Speaker 00 You've told some of the stories, you know, put your key in a bowl and see where the night takes you. But Jill was naked from the waist down and in a knee to chest position. She had been beaten, sexually assaulted and was strangled with a pair of blue slacks. According to a prosecutor, Jill was assaulted with multiple ligatures and her face was smashed with a rock. She also had bite marks on her breasts. What is it with these killers wanting to bite their victims breasts? I mean, we've covered a number of killers who did this. I know.
48:06 Speaker 01 What if it's some type of mom issue or something?
48:08 Speaker 00 I don't know if it's wanting to leave them, like leave their mark, so to say. I really don't know. In the fall of 1977, residents of Los Angeles were terrified by the Hillside Strangler case. Police initially suspected Jill was a victim of the strangler. And this is the thing, man, in the late seventies in LA. You think about all the infamous serial killers that were kind of running around.
48:36 Speaker 01 Was not a good time to be in LA.
48:39 Speaker 00 No, I mean, some of the most infamous in history were operating in the late seventies, early eighties. You think Richard Ramirez, the Hillside Stranglers, so many more that I'm blanking on right now. And you've got Rodney Alcala in the mix. Jill was originally from Oneida, New York. She was the fifth of 11 children. According to her brother Bruce, Jill was a runaway. She had only been in LA for about three weeks and was living in motel. On December 14th, 1977, the LAPD received a call from the FBI about the disappearance of Ellen Hoover in New York.
49:23 Speaker 00 The FBI linked Alcala to Ellen's disappearance several months earlier. Based on a tip from a camp counselor in New Hampshire, who told detectives that a camp counselor named John Berger had been arrested there. The LAPD determined that John Berger was an alias used by Rodney Alcala and brought him in for questioning. Alcala admitted to knowing Ellen, but denied harming her. Without a body or any direct evidence, he could not be arrested.
49:56 Speaker 01 What do you think was going through his head at that moment? Man, I got away with another?
50:00 Speaker 00 Yeah, I don't know. I mean, let's not forget, this is a guy who was pretty intelligent. I often think that a lot of these types of individuals. Think, yeah, I can talk to the cops. I'm smarter than them. And in some cases, they are.
50:18 Speaker 01 That's true.
50:19 Speaker 00 Or at the very least, he knows enough about what to say and what not to say in order to, you know, not get himself in trouble. Just two days later, 27-year-old Georgia Wickstead was murdered in Malibu. Georgia was born in New York, but grew up in Southern California. She worked as a pediatric cancer nurse and had just moved into her own apartment. Her sister said she was outgoing, had lots of friends, and just wanted to help others. On December 16th, 1977, Georgia was found dead in her apartment. The night before she was killed, Georgia attended a birthday party at Brennan's Pub in Santa Monica.
51:02 Speaker 00 She drove fellow nurse Barbara Gale home. When Georgia didn't show up for work the next day, her coworkers reported her missing. Police found signs of forced entry at her apartment. Georgia was new and appeared to be posed. She suffered massive head injuries and had been sexually assaulted with a claw hammer, which was found next to her body. She had a nylon stocking wrapped around her neck.
51:30 Speaker 01 Saw that face I made, didn't you?
51:31 Speaker 00 Yeah. And it is a tough visual, right? There's no way around it. You think about being hit in the head with a claw hammer and then sexually assaulted with that same claw hammer? It is not a good visual at all. Blood and a handprint from the crime scene would later be used to link Al Kala to this murder. In March 1978, Rodney was investigated by the Hillside Strangler Task Force, who were questioning known sex offenders as possible suspects.
52:08 Speaker 00 He was interviewed at his mother's home on March 22nd. He was ruled out as the strangler, but served a short time in prison for possession of marijuana. Shortly after he was released, 32-year-old Charlotte Lamb was murdered in El Segundo. Charlotte Lamb was a legal secretary who lived in Santa Monica. On June 24th, 1978, Charlotte was found dead in the laundry room of a large apartment complex in El Segundo, about 15 miles from her home. She was nude except for her jewelry and one shoe. She had been sexually assaulted and strangled with a shoelace.
52:50 Speaker 00 She also had bite marks on one of her breasts. The apartment manager found her body, which was posed with her arms behind her back.
53:00 Speaker 01 Strange poses, bite marks on the breasts. Seems to be his thing.
53:05 Speaker 00 It does. Yeah, definitely. 10 days earlier, on June 14th, the remains of the missing Ellen Hoover were found in Westchester County, New York. She was found on the Rockefeller Estate. This was near an area where Alcala had photographed other women. A witness also claimed they saw someone who looked like Ellen in the area with a man carrying a camera back. The Rockefeller Estate.
53:32 Speaker 01 Good old Rockefeller.
53:34 Speaker 00 Which I'm sure was quite large.
53:36 Speaker 01 I'm assuming as well.
53:37 Speaker 00 As far as acreage. Authorities had been searching hundreds of acres of the woodlands for three months before a detective found her skeletal remains. Detective Donald Tassick had been going to the woods since March 1978. During his 24th trip to the woods, he found a bra and a pair of underwear that were about Ellen's size. Days later, he was poking a garden hoe into what looked like a clump of leaves 15 feet from where he found the undergarments. He lifted a rock with the hoe and found a bone. Ellen's remains were buried under heavy rocks on a hillside overlooking the Hudson River. She was identified through dental records and her jewelry.
54:23 Speaker 01 There's a guy that never gave up.
54:25 Speaker 00 Yeah, so he made 24 trips to the woods. He must have had a really good sense that this was where she was going to be found. And he turned out to be correct. On September 13th, 1978, Rodney Alcala appeared on the famous show, The Dating Game, as bachelor number one, trying to win a date with a woman named Cheryl Branch. Host Jim Lang introduced him as a successful photographer who got his start when his father found him in the darkroom at the age of 13, fully developed.
55:00 Speaker 01 But um boom.
55:01 Speaker 00 Between takes, you might find him skydiving or motorcycling. So my first question is, do you remember this show?
55:09 Speaker 01 I do remember the show.
55:10 Speaker 00 I do too. I don't know that I watched it live because I don't know that I would have been old enough, but I definitely remember watching it.
55:19 Speaker 01 I'm surprised you didn't ask if I was on it.
55:22 Speaker 00 I assumed you would have offered up that information if you had been. The one thing I do remember about it, there were a lot of sexual puns.
55:30 Speaker 01 Yeah.
55:31 Speaker 00 Kind of like the one I just read, right? Fully developed. And not just, you know, from the host, but the contestants themselves and even the, the, the person, you know, who was going to go out on the date with them. There was a lot of back and forth and a lot of it was sexual innuendos.
55:51 Speaker 01 Same with the other show, the Newlyweds.
55:54 Speaker 00 Oh, the whoopee where he's always using the word whoopee. Where's the strangest place you ever made whoopee?
56:02 Speaker 01 They just couldn't say what they really wanted to say.
56:04 Speaker 00 Right. Executive producer, Mike Metzger and contestant coordinator, Ellen Metzger, his future wife, told 2020, they initially disagreed on whether Alcala should be a contestant. They didn't have the technology for a background check. So no one was aware of his criminal history. Ellen told 2020 that Rodney Alcala was tall and attractive. So she thought women were going to love him. Mike thought he had a strange personality. He explained, he had a mystique about him that I found uncomfortable. Ultimately, they decided to have Alcala on the show. So I think that tells us, Gibbs, who won that argument? And it was his future wife. Yeah.
56:50 Speaker 00 I also thought it was kind of, you know, very interesting that they couldn't do background checks. So you have all these contestants on these shows. They're going to go out on a date, maybe possibly with someone. You have no idea. They could be wanted for murder, have been paroled on, you know, serious convictions. True. I mean, you don't know who you're setting them up with. Fellow contestant Jed Mills told CNN, "He was creepy, definitely creepy." Mills recalled, "Something about him, I could not be near him. I'm kind of bending toward the other guy to get away from him. And I don't know if I did that consciously, but
57:34 Speaker 00 thinking back on that, I probably did." Mills said about their time in the green room together, "He was quiet, but at the same time, he would interrupt and impose when he felt like it. And he was very obnoxious and creepy. He became very unlikable and rude and imposing as though he was trying to intimidate. I wound up not only not liking this guy, not wanting to be near him, he got creepier and more negative. He was a standout creepy guy in my life." Mills also revealed to 2020 that Alcala told him, "I always get my girl." So I get it. This guy felt creeped out by him. I wonder how much of this though was
58:16 Speaker 00 felt right then and there? Or how much of this was intensified after, you know, all of the facts came out about what he had done? I assume some of, some of it had to be intensified. Yeah, I would think so too. During filming, Cheryl Bradshaw asked Alcala questions such as, "I'm serving you for dinner. What are you called? And what do you look like?" Alcala responded, "I'm called the banana and I look good." When Cheryl asked him to be more descriptive, he answered, "Peel me." Okay. So again, back to the sexual innuendo, right? Cheryl chose Rodney for a date, but after talking with him face to face, she changed
59:01 Speaker 00 her mind. She said in a 2012 interview with the Sunday Telegraph, "I started to feel ill." He was actually really creepy. I didn't want to see him again. The day after filming, Cheryl called the office and told contestant coordinator Ellen Metzger, I can't go out with this guy. There's weird vibes that are coming off of him. He's very strange. I'm not comfortable. Ellen told her she didn't have to go. And you know, it's this appearance by Rodney Alcala on the show that led to his moniker, The Dating Game Killer, which is, you know, kind of a
59:40 Speaker 00 misleading moniker as far as serial killers go. Yeah, he was on The Dating Game and he was a killer, but it's not like he killed people only who were on The Dating Game or you know what I'm saying. They also came out with a movie. I don't know if you've seen the movie, Gibbs, but Cheryl is played by Anna Kendrick. Yeah. I think is her name. Yeah. Right. From Pitch Perfect and The Accountant and she's a, she's a really good actress.
1:00:09 Speaker 01 I saw the very beginning, but wasn't able to go back to it. I forgot. I forget why.
1:00:15 Speaker 00 Yeah. I actually haven't seen it. I will watch it though, as we're in the midst of this.
1:00:22 Speaker 01 Yeah, same here.
1:00:23 Speaker 00 Rodney Alcala saga.
1:00:26 Speaker 01 But how lucky do you think Cheryl felt later in life? Again, like the other victim that says, man, I was so close, but I listened to my gut.
1:00:37 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:00:38 Speaker 01 And I went the other direction.
1:00:39 Speaker 00 Well, and it's a good thing, right? We don't know what, if anything, would have happened, but the chances are high, knowing what this guy did. I think the listening to your gut thing cannot be overstated. It also kind of makes me think that the guy really was creepy because you had, you know, three or four people saying. So as we wrap up this, you know, part one on Rodney Alcala, there's a few things that stand out to me. This dichotomy between what is really a sadistic killer and the person that
1:01:18 Speaker 00 everyone said he was growing up is striking. So, you know, as we go along, we're going to have to dive into that. What happened? When did it happen? Was it always there? Was he masking it when he was younger? Or did something happen that kind of flipped the switch for the lack of a better term? In part two of the Rodney Alcala episodes, we'll cover the known crimes he committed in 1979 and how he was finally apprehended for good. So the dating game aspect of it, right? It gets a lot of play because of the moniker,
1:01:59 Speaker 00 the dating game killer, but it's really just a small kind of tidbit.
1:02:04 Speaker 01 Right, right.
1:02:04 Speaker 00 In his life, what to me is, is the big thing is in addition to the murders that we've already talked about, obviously, we're going to talk about more are the number of photographs that police found and will continue to find. That's a big part of this case.
1:02:28 Speaker 01 Yeah, it plays a big role.
1:02:29 Speaker 00 Because that's really what leads people to believe that this guy was a very prolific killer. And, you know, we'll, we'll get into it in, in these episodes, but some of the, the women in these photographs have not been identified and they're still working to this very day to try to figure out and identify some of these women to see if, you know, are they still alive? Could they be dead somewhere and, and just not have been found? But join us next week for part two on Rodney Alcala. We got a voicemail, Gibbs, you want to check that out?
1:03:09 Speaker 01 Let's hear it.
1:03:10 Speaker 03 In my community, this is Joe calling from Charleston, South Carolina. Just finished the uh, the case that y'all covered. Um, very intriguing because I'm also in that same boat with you guys and that it's hard to determine what the motive was, but it's also damning that his stories that God gave him the things were very conflicting. So it's really hard to say that he was innocent or he was an accident or he purposely did kill his wife. And listening to it, it also had me thinking because you all mentioned that he worked in windshield repairs. So maybe his experience working in windshield, he was able to possibly state that. Maybe he had a client that had maybe a pipe
1:03:53 Speaker 03 go or something similar to a pipe go through a windshield and he was thinking to himself, oh, this might be a good, this is like the perfect setup to, you know, kill my wife and stage it to look like an accident. Maybe he fired him, do something like that. But I'm with Mike on that and Jimmy, of course, guys had said that it was uh, clear to determine um, if he was innocent because of his conflicting stories and the evidence showed because of the conflicting stories and whatnot. Anyway, great show. Keep up the good work, guys. Stay safe and keep that topic.
1:04:25 Speaker 00 All right. Thanks very much for the voicemail. And that's an interesting take. I don't know that we touched on it at the, at the end of that episode. Obviously we did say he was in windshield repair and he gave those bogus stories. It, it could have been that the guy had cars with windshields and he had, you know, kind of used the pipe ahead of time to see how it would work, what would look the best. Sure. How hard would he have to strike it? That's very possible. Seems plausible to me. And that's all that matters. It really is. At the end of the day, is what seems plausible to give me. Cause you're like the whole jury here. Exactly. 12 angry men.
1:05:10 Speaker 00 I'm just glad you finally coming around to see it. You know, 12 angry men. I'm giving you, I'm giving you your props and then I'm making fun of you before you realize.
1:05:23 Speaker 00 All right, buddy. That is it for another episode of True Crime All the Time. So for Mike. And Gibby. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.
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