Robert Chae

Robert Chae was a successful Philadelphia businessman who was murdered during a home invasion. The brutality of the crime left his close-knit community on edge as investigators worked to identify multiple suspects. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the murder of Robert Chae. Investigators had to use every tool at their disposal to identify suspects. Once they got someone to crack, that person turned on everyone else involved. In the end, it turned out that the mastermind of the entire operation was someone very close to the Chaes, a person no one would have suspected. You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetime Visit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation information An Emash Digital production See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

• 0:34Speaker 00

  Hello everyone and welcome to episode 494 of the True Crime All the Time Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?

• 0:44Speaker 01

  I'm doing okay, man. How about you?

• 0:46Speaker 00

  I'm doing great. Having a good week, although, you know, I normally have a good week.

• 0:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, you are a good week kind of type of guy.

• 0:54Speaker 00

  I kind of like my life, to be honest with you.

• 0:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, you got a good life, you know, good family, good kids, which is part of your family.

• 1:02Speaker 00

  So I am blessed. I am blessed.

• 1:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05Speaker 00

  Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Natasha Jones.

• 1:08Speaker 01

  What's going on Natasha?

• 1:10Speaker 00

  Tony Mathis.

• 1:11Speaker 01

  Hey, that's like the Kung Fu praying man this.

• 1:14Speaker 00

  Okay, it's Mathis, but if you want to say mantis, you can.

• 1:19Speaker 01

  Well, that's the, that's the short version of that before they changed it. Yeah.

• 1:24Speaker 00

  Yana.

• 1:25Speaker 01

  Hey, Yana.

• 1:26Speaker 00

  Don Birch.

• 1:27Speaker 01

  What's going on, Don?

• 1:29Speaker 00

  Lulu.

• 1:30Speaker 01

  Uh, hey Lou, thank you.

• 1:31Speaker 00

  Justine.

• 1:32Speaker 01

  What's going on, Justine?

• 1:34Speaker 00

  Brianna Michelle.

• 1:36Speaker 01

  Well, thanks Brianna.

• 1:37Speaker 00

  Suzanne Jackson.

• 1:38Speaker 01

  There it is, Jackson.

• 1:40Speaker 00

  Dana Stark.

• 1:41Speaker 01

  Hey Dana Stark, I feel like that's like related to some Stark Industries.

• 1:48Speaker 00

  Hmm, you think she's part of a fictional, uh, multi billionaire family?

• 1:55Speaker 01

  Do you think it's fictional?

• 1:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, I believe it is. So if we go back into the vault. This week, we selected Stephanie Goulet.

• 2:05Speaker 01

  Ah, thanks, Stephanie.

• 2:06Speaker 00

  So we appreciate all the Patreon support that we get. Gibbs, we have an episode out right now on True Crime All The Time Unsolved, where we're talking about Cecilia Devine. She went missing from Newcastle, New South Wales in September 2018. Her remains were found six months later in a dam near Kootumbe, which was quite a bit of ways from her home. So we'll get into all the details. That's out now. Check it out. And then on Thursday's TCAT, we talk about 18-year-old Brittany Gargle, who was found dead on the side of the road in Saskatoon, Canada in March 2015.

• 2:49Speaker 00

  And this is a fascinating case because police used social media to solve her murder, and they really focused in on a selfie taken with her friend on the night she died.

• 3:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was an interesting case.

• 3:04Speaker 00

  All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All The Time?

• 3:07Speaker 01

  I am.

• 3:08Speaker 00

  We are discussing Robert Che. Robert Che was a successful Philadelphia businessman. He was murdered during a home invasion. The brutality of the crime left his close-knit community on edge as investigators worked to identify multiple suspects. Robert Che was born on March 10, 1950. He grew up in South Korea. He came from a low-income family, and he wanted to move to the United States to pursue the American dream.

• 3:40Speaker 01

  That's awesome.

• 3:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, so many people want that, have done that, and many have been very successful. He was married to Janice Che. They had two children, Richard and Mina, who were adults at the time of his death. The family settled in the Philadelphia area. In 1989, Robert and his family moved to North Wales, which is a suburb of Philadelphia. And we talked about it on Patreon, but I've never been to Philadelphia. And I'm ashamed to say that.

• 4:14Speaker 01

  Well, you need to go and get yourself some of that good Philadelphia food.

• 4:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, I would go just for the history.

• 4:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:23Speaker 00

  I'm a history buff and that would be, that would be great. So Robert owned his own business for 25 years. In 1994, he was one of the first to open a Korean beauty supply store in Philadelphia. Before that, he owned a cafe in the same location. The restaurant industry was tiring and he wanted something that was a little bit slower paced. Robert still went to work every day to sort inventory.

• 4:52Speaker 01

  And think about it, Korean beauty products are like big time now. That's if you're into like skincare and stuff, I guess the Korean beauty products are the ones to have.

• 5:06Speaker 00

  Okay, did not know that.

• 5:08Speaker 01

  So.

• 5:08Speaker 00

  As you can tell, I'm not into skincare at all. Probably should be.

• 5:14Speaker 01

  Maybe.

• 5:14Speaker 00

  A little bit more than I am, but I could understand, you know, like a cafe, a restaurant. And that, that would be, I think, a lot of hard work. I mean, any business is hard work, but you think of like the food service industry and it's go, go, go. I could see how that would be very tiring.

• 5:36Speaker 01

  It'd be tough for you to have something like that because I think you would eat the profits.

• 5:40Speaker 00

  I would, so it'd be no profit.

• 5:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:42Speaker 00

  Robert and Janice left their home at 5:00 AM to drive into the city. Robert worked long hours to provide for his family and he was known for hiring people experiencing homelessness.

• 5:55Speaker 01

  Like a good guy.

• 5:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, it sounds like a guy who really wants to help people out when they're having a hard time. Robert was one of the most successful individuals in the Korean beauty supply business in that area. From 2005 to 2007, he was president of the Pennsylvania Korean Beauty Supply Association. He more than tripled membership and began a program of awarding college scholarships to the sons and daughters of customers. So, I mean, it was said, Gibbs, in every article by everyone that Robert was well liked. He was highly respected by everyone who knew him. He had no known enemies.

• 6:38Speaker 01

  And we hear that a lot in some of these cases, right?

• 6:42Speaker 00

  Which you have to imagine can make it a little tougher for police, right? In trying to solve someone's murder be easier when a person has one like mortal enemy.

• 6:57Speaker 01

  Right.

• 6:57Speaker 00

  Or a couple of people who really dislike them and would want to see them dead.

• 7:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was known to be a real asshole and he did this and that to these people. And, you know, at that point, the police could, you know, focus in on that.

• 7:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, but they, but with a person who has no known enemies, I mean, who do you start to focus in on? On January 9th, 2009, Robert and Janice were up early and out the door at 5:00 a.m. To go to work as they always did. Man, 5:00 a.m. I have barely hit my REM cycle. I just climbed into bed about an hour or two.

• 7:37Speaker 01

  I was gonna say, you can get started.

• 7:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, 5:00 a.m. is early. Now, I did have a job one time where I had to be at work at 4:00 a.m. But that was a long time ago.

• 7:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, thank you.

• 7:48Speaker 00

  It was my younger days.

• 7:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:50Speaker 00

  As soon as Robert opened the garage door to go to his car, he was attacked by three gunmen. While Robert was tied up and badly beaten, Janice and Richard and Mina, who were sleeping in their rooms, were forced down to the basement and bound. I mean, this is a nightmarish situation. And we talked about Robert wanting to take care of his family as most husbands, fathers do. Well, okay, part of that is financially, you want to be able to provide, but you also want to ensure that your family is safe.

• 8:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:30Speaker 00

  And this is a situation where he's not going to have control over that.

• 8:35Speaker 01

  This is a really scary situation.

• 8:38Speaker 00

  The robbers demanded that Janice tell them where the money was. One of the robbers watched Richard and Mina while Janice led the other two to a safe and opened it for them. They took cash and other valuable items. And I don't know how you don't do that in that situation. I mean, it's the same thing they tell like, you know, bank tellers or convenience store workers. Just give them whatever they want. Right? Money's replaceable. Your life is not.

• 9:08Speaker 01

  Right. Just go with the flow.

• 9:10Speaker 00

  And I think for Janice, that decision had to be very easy because her son and daughter are there. She has to try to protect them. And at this point, she probably has no idea what's going on with Robert. Janice was soon able to escape out the basement door. She ran to her neighbor Pam Lambert's house ringing the doorbell frantically. When Pam answered, Janice said, call 911, call 911, my husband, my husband, three men. When the robbers discovered Janice was gone, they also fled through the basement door and drove off in a dark colored SUV. The police arrived minutes later, but the suspects were gone. So I think we have to break this down a little bit.

• 9:56Speaker 00

  You know, this is, I think, a very tough decision for someone in Janice's position. Number one, you want to get away so that you can call for help to try to save your family. But on the flip side, Gibbs, you're leaving your kids and your husband there while you escape.

• 10:18Speaker 01

  I mean, it's a risk, but I think if you feel like you can get away and get to a a phone or to somebody that can make a call, that's the way to go because you don't know what their intentions are. After they got that money, what were they going to do with you and the kids?

• 10:35Speaker 00

  Right. It may be the only way to save anybody. Richard and Mena were alive and still bound with duct tape, but Robert was dead. His hands were zip tied behind his back. His head had been wrapped in tape, leaving only his nose exposed. Robert's head was wrapped so many times, it looked like the killers used an entire roll of duct tape, according to one detective.

• 11:02Speaker 01

  I guess they want to make sure it was all wrapped up.

• 11:05Speaker 00

  Well, anybody that's had a big roll of duct tape, there is quite a bit on a roll.

• 11:11Speaker 01

  There is.

• 11:11Speaker 00

  So let's assume that it was a new roll. You are wrapping that around somebody's face quite a few times.

• 11:21Speaker 00

  To use up that whole thing. Robert was so badly beaten that authorities thought that he'd been stabbed. But it was determined that Robert died of asphyxiation from his own blood, clotting blood from his broken nose sealed the small hole through which he had been breathing.

• 11:41Speaker 01

  Wow, suffocated.

• 11:43Speaker 00

  Well, and I said this was a very brutal attack. He was beaten so badly that investigators thought he'd been stabbed. You just gotta let that sink in.

• 11:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:55Speaker 00

  Janice described how the three unmasked robbers attacked Robert and forced their way inside. One man beat Robert and held him in the garage. The others forced her into the house and demanded access to the safe. Investigators determined that the robbers left with $20,000 in cash, jewelry and purses. Investigators wondered why the robbers exposed their faces and how they knew the family had a safe. And this for me goes back to, you know, if you're Janice, do you make the decision that if you can, you bolt out of that door? To me, the fact that these people weren't wearing masks would make me think that

• 12:40Speaker 00

  I gotta do whatever I have to do because how can they leave us all alive? When they're not covering their faces?

• 12:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, they don't, because they're not going to want to leave any eyewitnesses.

• 12:52Speaker 00

  No, it's almost like, did they not cover their faces? Because they weren't expecting to leave any witnesses alive. Police immediately suspected the robbers had been casing the house and waiting in the driveway because they knew what time Robert and Janice left for work. It was highly unlikely for three robbers to be lurking around a peaceful suburban neighborhood at exactly the moment his garage door opened. A garbage collector soon reported seeing an SUV with three people circling the blocks days before the murder. And I think that's a good observation, right? What are the chances that you've got a roving gang of robbers just kind of going around?

• 13:37Speaker 00

  And then all of a sudden, they see this garage door open and they, they see it as an opportunity.

• 13:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, man, that's so unlikely.

• 13:45Speaker 00

  It's like they knew what time that garage door was gonna open. They knew what time Robert and Janice left the house. They knew a lot about this family, including the fact that they had a safe with a lot of cash and valuables.

• 14:02Speaker 01

  And they felt pretty confident about it.

• 14:04Speaker 00

  So I think if you're the police, knowing all that, it has to inform the direction that you take. Right? These people either knew the family, knew someone in the family, or were given information by someone who knew the family. This was not a complete stranger robbery slash murder.

• 14:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, they got information somehow.

• 14:28Speaker 00

  According to Delaware County Assistant DA Pearl Kim, Robert was killed at a time when hate crimes against Asian Americans were increasingly hot. Asian business owners were targeted because it was thought they were more likely to carry cash or have cash in their home and also less likely to call the police. Janice recalled the intruders were talking to each other on their phones from different floors of the house. Detectives analyzed phone records in the area and a sketch artist created composites of the suspects' faces. After the murder, Janice, Richard, and Mina stayed with Robert's sister, her husband,

• 15:11Speaker 00

  and Robert's nephew, 25-year-old Angelo Shin. Angelo spent a year living with the Chays. After he moved to the US, he eventually moved out, but remained in Northwells. Recently, he had fallen in with a bad crowd. Okay, again, if you're the police, it has to pique your interest.

• 15:31Speaker 01

  It has to, I agree.

• 15:33Speaker 00

  Here's a guy related to the family, but also lived with them for about a year. Meaning he knew their habits.

• 15:45Speaker 00

  He most likely knew they had this safe. He would have had quite a bit of information.

• 15:50Speaker 01

  And maybe he knew that they kept a substantial amount of money in that safe.

• 15:54Speaker 00

  Investigators got a break in the case when they identified three numbers linked to burner phones that were in regular communication around the time of the murder. One of those numbers belonged to Angelo Shin. When Angelo was called in for questioning, he appeared devastated and he immediately came clean. Angelo revealed that he had recently befriended 24-year-old Joseph Page, a Philadelphia local. He tried to impress Page by telling him he knew where they could find $100,000. He believed his uncle kept the cash in his safe.

• 16:31Speaker 01

  It's a weird way to try to impress your friend, right? Or this guy you want to be your friend.

• 16:38Speaker 00

  But is it? If these people are in what was described as kind of a, the bad crowd, or however you want to say it, well, it probably means they're, they're doing some illegal stuff already. Maybe they're into drugs. Maybe they're looking for money. So he's like, hey, I know where we can get our hands on some money.

• 16:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, but once you open that door, you know that they're gonna wanna go down that route. It's not like they're gonna be like, yeah, it's only 100 grand. We're not gonna mess with it, man. And it's your uncle. We don't want to do that to him.

• 17:10Speaker 00

  Well, Angelo tried to tell the police that, well, he wasn't real serious, right? About the robbery, but it was too late because Page had already told five of his friends about it. 25-year-old Amitati Latham, 33-year-old Robert Eetman, 18-year-old Kareh Pitts, 32-year-old Julius Wise, and 17-year-old Sybil White. The idea was that three would go inside the house while the others would act as lookouts and getaway drivers. Everyone would split the money.

• 17:45Speaker 01

  That's a lot of people for a, for a job.

• 17:48Speaker 00

  It is, but $100,000 is a lot of money. And let's say everybody's getting 20 or 15 or whatever it is. That is a boatload of money to many, many people.

• 18:00Speaker 01

  For a short amount of work. I get it. In and out kind of quick.

• 18:05Speaker 00

  And let's not forget, they have the inside knowledge.

• 18:09Speaker 01

  Well, that's true.

• 18:10Speaker 00

  So he's feeding them this knowledge that, hey, they leave at five in the morning. Be easy, tie him up, go in. And my thought is, they weren't planning on killing anybody. Let's just say that.

• 18:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 18:25Speaker 00

  So to your point, kind of in and out, tie people up. I'm not excusing it. I'm not saying it's a good thing, but from their way of thinking, 20 grand or 15 grand for, what, 30 minutes, an hour max?

• 18:41Speaker 01

  Yep. Good money.

• 18:43Speaker 00

  For criminals, that's hard to pass up.

• 18:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:45Speaker 00

  Angelo identified Pitts and Joseph Page from police photos and said they were with him at a planning session. Can we also talk about how this guy like literally caved immediately?

• 19:00Speaker 01

  No backbone. I mean, I'm glad he caved.

• 19:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:03Speaker 01

  But.

• 19:04Speaker 00

  I just wonder if he thought that by laying it at the feet of all these other people, it was going to somehow absolve him.

• 19:15Speaker 01

  I think he thought it was going to help him somehow, but I don't know how he would think he would be let off the hook.

• 19:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, because when somebody dies in the commission of a crime and you were involved.

• 19:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:29Speaker 00

  You helped plan it. There's going to be some serious repercussions for you.

• 19:33Speaker 01

  And I doubt his family's gonna want anything to do with him after that.

• 19:39Speaker 00

  Oh, that's a great point. Now, maybe he thought that he would get the sweetheart deal, right? If he was the first one to cave and kind of roll over on the other individuals and testify against them. That's always possible. He said that no one was supposed to get hurt. Angelo maintained that he did not participate in the actual robbery. When Angelo asked Page why he killed Robert, Page suggested it was Robert's fault for fighting back. You want to talk about the ultimate victim blaming?

• 20:11Speaker 01

  Man, some nerve there.

• 20:13Speaker 00

  It was his fault for fighting back. No, it was your fault for taping him up with a thousand yards of duct tape.

• 20:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:23Speaker 00

  So that he couldn't breathe. On February 4th, 2009, Angelo Shen and five others were charged with murder. Prosecutors revealed that Angelo helped plan the robbery, which Paige and the others then carried out. Montgomery County Prosecutor Riza Vetri-Furman said at a press conference, Angelo is a traitor to his family, his people. His treachery is the lowest kind ever seen. He got $2,000 to betray his family.

• 20:54Speaker 01

  Man, that's really sad. It really is that he did all this.

• 20:59Speaker 00

  For $2,000?

• 21:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:02Speaker 00

  Now, I get it. He didn't think anybody was going to be killed. I understand that part.

• 21:08Speaker 01

  And he thought there was going to be more money in the safe.

• 21:11Speaker 00

  That's true. He was telling everybody there was 100. It turned out there wasn't anywhere near that much in there, but still, 2,000, 15,000 to betray your own family? Ah, we've seen people kill for a lot less than that, but it's still hard to believe. According to a report by the Philadelphia Inquirer, after the robbery, Paige called Angelo to complain about not getting enough money. And it was hours later that Paige gave Angelo $2,000 for his participation. When he asked why his uncle had been killed, Paige said he had been screaming and kicking, so they had to hurt him a little bit.

• 21:56Speaker 01

  Well, they did more than just hurt him a little bit.

• 21:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's for sure. Police also learned of Angelo's involvement, not just through cellphone records, but also because an informant told them Kari Pitts had been overheard talking about a two-car, seven-person robbery crew. And that was my other thought, Gibbs. How in the world did these people think that five, six, seven people being involved, nothing was going to get leaked? That's a lot of people involved in a, in a job.

• 22:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:33Speaker 00

  It was also reported that Robert Eatman told detectives he was the lookout and that Amitati Latham called him from inside the house to say that Joseph Page went crazy. He kept hitting and hitting Robert Che. So they had Angelo and three others and all four of them were arraigned, but Page and Pitts remained at large. All but Angelo were charged with second degree murder. Angelo was charged with third degree murder. Pitts turned himself in the following day. On February 19th, 2009, US Marshals found Joseph Page

• 23:15Speaker 00

  in a woman's apartment near Wakefield Park in the Logan neighborhood of Philadelphia. He showed them a fake ID with the name James Mears, but his neck tattoo and fingerprints gave him away.

• 23:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, see, he thought he was gonna be able to be sneaky.

• 23:33Speaker 00

  And this is why I always say, you know, you gotta watch out for those neck and face tattoos. Even if Mike Tyson wasn't famous, do you know how easy it would be to describe him because of that crazy tattoo he has around his eyes and his face?

• 23:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. You can't hide that kind of stuff.

• 23:52Speaker 00

  Well, it's hard. I guess you could wear a ski mask or something like that, but they weren't even wearing masks. So obviously, they, they weren't trying to cover up their, their necks or their tattoos at all.

• 24:06Speaker 01

  I just wonder if Janice didn't get out of there. What would have really happened?

• 24:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, again, I, I go back to planning the robbery and planning to take all of these people hostage or, you know, at least bind them, but make the conscious decision not to cover your face. To me, that screams that there were plans not to leave anyone alive.

• 24:34Speaker 00

  Now, it doesn't necessarily absolutely mean that, but I know I would be thinking that if I was in that position, hey, I gotta do whatever I can because these people decided not to wear masks for a reason.

• 24:49Speaker 01

  And maybe they went into this thinking they weren't going to kill anybody, but once he died.

• 24:55Speaker 00

  They could have changed their way of thinking.

• 24:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I think, I hate to say it, but you almost kind of have to because now you just murdered somebody and people have seen your face, right? She's seen their face.

• 25:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, I could, I could understand that too, how maybe their way of thinking could have changed after, you know, Robert dying. At the preliminary hearing, Richard Che testified that on the morning of January 9th, he was shaken and awake by two men, one of whom pistol-whipped him. He was dragged from his bedroom into the basement where three men bound him with duct tape. They wanted money from the safe. The family agreed, but it seemed that they weren't satisfied and that they thought that we had more. Well, yeah, they thought that because Angelo Shen told them there would be at least a hundred thousand dollars.

• 25:48Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 25:49Speaker 00

  Richard and Janice freed themselves from their restraints while the men were upstairs looking for more money. She ran outside and he ran upstairs and barred himself in his bedroom, then called 911. And I get it, Gibbs, this would be a very chaotic, you know, situation. You're trying to get free, but it did seem like kind of mom and son left the daughter slash sister kind of there by herself.

• 26:18Speaker 01

  Kind of sounds like it. Also sounds like these weren't the best robbers.

• 26:23Speaker 00

  Well, no, obviously they didn't do a very good job of restraining these people. They were able to get out pretty easily. Robert Eetman appeared as a witness against Paige, Pitts, and Latham, who were the three defendants at the hearing. Eetman testified that Angelo Shen set the stage for the home invasion in late 2008, when he told them Robert Che had a safe containing cash and other valuables. Joseph Page talked to Eetman about a sting they could do. In early 2009, Eetman drove Page to case the neighborhood. They got lost and had to call Angelo for directions.

• 27:03Speaker 00

  On January 8th, the day before the crime, all of them met at a home in Philadelphia. Angelo went through the details of how to get inside, where to go, where the safe was at.

• 27:16Speaker 01

  He was really, uh, kinda like the ringleader.

• 27:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I get it. He wasn't there when the crime occurred, but it's hard for me not to say that he was the mastermind, right? None of it happens without Angelo Shin.

• 27:34Speaker 01

  It's kinda reminds me a little bit of the case we did, I think just last week, where the guy pointed at this duplex and said, "The marijuana is in the house on the, you know, the, the door on the left."

• 27:47Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, yeah. So he didn't participate in the crime, but he's the one that told the other people about it. He pointed it out. And so I think you can make the argument, just like here, none of what ultimately occurs would have happened without the, the person who sets it up.

• 28:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:07Speaker 00

  On the day of the crime, Eetman was alone in one getaway car. Seventeen-year-old Sybil White testified that she was the second driver and drove the others in her mother's vehicle. She was paid $500 to drive, and all she knew was what Joseph Page told her. "He was going to get some money, and he wanted me to drive." I get it. You may not be in on the full particulars of what's gonna happen, but do you at least have to question why somebody is paying you $500 to drive them to get some money?

• 28:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, unless you just know that they're not upstanding guys and they do bad stuff, and you're gonna make some money by driving them around.

• 28:55Speaker 00

  And you kinda know whatever it is is gonna be criminal, but you don't maybe exactly know what it is?

• 29:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:01Speaker 00

  She dropped them off near the home. She waited at a nearby convenience store, then started driving around. She picked them up when she got a cell phone notification to do so. During the drive home, the men discussed whether they took too long there and whether there were cameras in the house. On September 25th, 2009, Angelo Shin pleaded guilty to third-degree murder, robbery, burglary, and other counts.

• 29:29Speaker 00

  His attorney said at no point at all did he ever contemplate that any of his family members would have been hurt. And that probably is true. But here's the thing. If you're the mastermind of a crime where somebody dies,

• 29:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:44Speaker 00

  you're gonna get charged.

• 29:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:46Speaker 00

  There's, there's just no way around it.

• 29:48Speaker 01

  As you should.

• 29:49Speaker 00

  And you should. I also thought it was interesting that these guys are talking about whether they had stayed there too long, but they're also discussing whether there were cameras in the house. Because obviously, they weren't wearing masks.

• 30:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:05Speaker 00

  But I would have thought that that would have come up in the planning phase.

• 30:09Speaker 01

  I would have thought Angelo would have said, hey, by the way, there is a few cameras. Let me, uh, you know, draw them in here on the map. So you guys know, uh, where to, uh, avoid going.

• 30:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, I would have thought that. Sybil White also pleaded guilty to third degree murder and other charges that same day. On December 24, 2009, Robert Eaton was sentenced to 20 to 40 years in prison after pleading guilty to third degree murder, robbery, and conspiracy. And that's interesting because on the episode that we have coming out on Thursday, we talk about a murder committed up in Canada, and the person only got seven years.

• 30:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, big difference.

• 30:54Speaker 00

  And they were let out on day parole in two years, you know, so we struggle with that a little bit. Part of that is because we're used to US sentences. 20 to 40 years in prison for what happened to me, I'm totally fine with. On January 12, 2010, the trial for Pitts, Page, and Latham began. In opening statements, prosecutor Todd Stevens told jurors that a mountain of evidence connected the three defendants to the home invasion, including cellphone records, DNA linking Page and Latham to the crime scene, as well as Angelo Shin's

• 31:33Speaker 00

  confession. Page learned Robert Chae's routines and the layout of his home from Angelo Shin. So there is some evidence, right? I mean, it's not just the word of Angelo Shin, but I'm sure that that is a big part of it. You have the cellphone records.

• 31:56Speaker 00

  Have DNA, which is huge, right? Linking at least two of the individuals to the crime scene.

• 32:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think they thought they were just gonna go in, do this and get out quick with a hundred thousand dollars. And then quickly found out that, uh, that's not how it was gonna go.

• 32:13Speaker 00

  And I believe they thought that maybe they didn't need the masks because they had no connection to the family. So they had no idea who they were. They had no idea they were working with Angelo Shin, so there was never gonna be a connection. Or is my other theory, which is they were planning on killing them anyway, but everybody says that wasn't true, so.

• 32:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I think, you know, it could have been true. They just got, uh, spooked when she fled the scene and they knew it was just a matter of time before the cops got there.

• 32:46Speaker 00

  And they had to get out quick. The three defense lawyers countered that prosecutors didn't believe the correct story. Robert Eaton, who was thought to be a getaway driver, was actually the violent intruder. The defense argued that early descriptions of a large attacker and a sketch of a suspect matched Eaton more closely than any of the three defendants.

• 33:10Speaker 01

  Boy, if you knew you were gonna be pulled into this, I mean, that's the way to go, just to say, I was the getaway driver.

• 33:18Speaker 00

  When you were really like part of the, the violence that happened inside of the home.

• 33:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, but it's also a pretty good tactic for the defense, right? They're trying to muddy the waters and they're saying, hey, uh, police, yeah. I know you were told this story, but this isn't what happened. Testimony showed that Joseph Page's DNA was found on the fingertip of a black latex glove. Amitati Latham's DNA was found on duct tape left behind at the crime scene. There was no DNA evidence linking Kari Pitts to the home invasion.

• 33:58Speaker 01

  I mean, really, if you think about it. These guys are kind of idiots, you know, using duct tape. What, what, what did you think was going to happen?

• 34:08Speaker 00

  No fingerprints on duct tape? I mean, it's like a duct tape magnet.

• 34:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 34:14Speaker 00

  With all that adhesive. Yeah, I, I think you're right. I don't think we're talking about, you know, criminal masterminds here. Janice Che testified that in the early morning darkness, it was difficult to see everything, except for the man who accosted her while the others duct taped and beat Robert. She gestured towards Amitati Latham and said, "He came right up to me and put a gun to my head." And I think if you're a juror, that's a pretty powerful statement.

• 34:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:48Speaker 00

  You have the victim directly identifying her attacker in court.

• 34:54Speaker 01

  She just painted that image in your head.

• 34:56Speaker 00

  And let's not forget, there's DNA that puts him at the scene. So I think that's a, that's a big one, too. Janice cried as she recounted the attack. She said, "Robert was dragged back into the garage, seconds after opening the door to go to their car. The attacker who took her upstairs stayed behind her and hit his face while ordering her around." She testified that from what they were saying, they clearly knew what was in the house and where it was.

• 35:26Speaker 01

  Well, we now know the reason behind that.

• 35:29Speaker 00

  Once again, Civil White testified that she used her mother's car to drive the three defendants to Robert Che's neighborhood before dawn. They got out carrying duct tape and a gun and were wearing latex gloves. Okay, maybe you throw that in a bag. I'm just saying, I'm not, I'm not trying to tell you how you, how to do your job. But walking around, I get it. It's five o'clock in the morning and there's probably not many people up at that time. I'm certainly not. But walking around with duct tape and a gun is a, not a great look.

• 36:04Speaker 01

  No.

• 36:05Speaker 00

  Sybil was told via pay as you go phone when to pick them up. During the ride back, Pitts asked Page, why'd you have to kill him? Page responded that he had to do what he had to do. During the drive back, Latham used his phone to talk to a woman. And those phone calls were key evidence in the case.

• 36:27Speaker 01

  I mean, how upset are you if you're the other guy saying, you really? You had to call your woman, you know? And that's being used against us? You couldn't wait until you got home later?

• 36:39Speaker 00

  Well, I, I think there's this misconception, right? That these kind of burner phones or pay as you go phones are untraceable. The problem is, and we've seen it in a number of cases. The authorities have the ability to just look for any cell phone calls made in that area during a specific time.

• 37:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:07Speaker 00

  And once they get those, then they start working them. They can figure, figure it all out. That, that's been used to crack a number of cases.

• 37:16Speaker 01

  That geo.

• 37:17Speaker 00

  Fencing or, yeah, we talked about it, I think in a, a recent episode. FBI Special Agent William Schut showed jurors a map tracking the use of several cell phones from the Frankfurt neighborhood of Philadelphia to the area around the crime scene. On the morning of January 9th, there was no record of a phone connected to Cory Pitts making the trip. However, cell phones linked to Page and Latham were used in the vicinity of Robert's home at the time of the home invasion. So there is one thing that's kind of standing out to me here. Page and Latham have.

• 37:56Speaker 00

  Quite a mountain of evidence against them, but the prosecution doesn't have near as much linking pits. No DNA, no fingerprints. They don't even have the cell phone data that they have for the other two. Robert Eaton testified that he would not have been the ringleader of the robbery because he weighed more than 400 pounds and used a cane to get around because he was shot eight times in 2007.

• 38:25Speaker 01

  Eight times. That's a story right there.

• 38:28Speaker 00

  That that's a lot of times to be shot. But, you know, also, I think if you weigh in excess of 400 pounds, it does make more sense for you to be a getaway driver as opposed to someone going inside the house in what will likely be kind of a scenario where the need for some agility may arise.

• 38:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, if you're 400 pounds and you're on a cane, are you really going to be going inside?

• 38:58Speaker 00

  I would think you'd be quite a liability.

• 39:01Speaker 01

  I would think so, too.

• 39:02Speaker 00

  In a situation like that. But again, let's not forget, the defense is trying to paint him as the violent intruder.

• 39:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 39:12Speaker 00

  Eaton named Joseph Page, Amitati Latham, and Kari Pitts as the attackers, saying, "My whole role was just to follow the car up there and watch their back." Joseph Page approached him about the robbery. He knew that there was a safe with a couple hundred thousand inside. Eaton went along to buy supplies for the raid and provided the duct tape used to restrain and suffocate Robert. Instead of going into the house, he drove around the neighborhood and communicated by cell phone. Afterwards, he met the attackers in Philadelphia. Eaton recalled that Latham and Page were bloody from head to toe.

• 39:52Speaker 01

  From beating Robert.

• 39:55Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, a savage beating like that, again, we talk about it a lot. When you beat someone to a pulp up close, when you shoot someone at close range.

• 40:08Speaker 00

  It's very hard not to get blood on you.

• 40:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:12Speaker 00

  Now, this Eetman, he's kind of an interesting guy because he is definitely putting himself in this job, right? If you want to call it that. This plan to rob the house. He's very involved in it. He's just saying, I did this and this and this. The one thing I didn't do is go inside the home, but he still played a role.

• 40:37Speaker 01

  I mean, he supplied a lot of the materials they used.

• 40:40Speaker 00

  And was a getaway driver. The defense sought to discredit Eetman by pointing out inconsistencies in his account and his record for theft and cocaine dealing. He admitted that he sold marijuana while on federal parole and took disability payments, saying, I hustled, man. Minna Che testified about seeing her father's body. She said, I turned the light on and saw this pool of blood and my dad just laying there. She also said, I really thought in the basement that we were all going to die.

• 41:15Speaker 01

  Uh, just because I think that might've been the plan.

• 41:18Speaker 00

  Yeah. And even if not, I could see how the victims would have thought that. I mean, they're being bound. You have intruders inside the home. That thought has to go through your mind. We're all gonna be killed. She saw two of the attackers and identified Amatadi Latham in court. She earlier identified Robert Eetman from a photograph, but prosecutor said she had confused him with Joseph Page. And that's interesting, right? Because the defense is trying to put Eetman inside the home.

• 41:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 41:54Speaker 00

  And here you have, at least at one point, Mina identifying him from a photograph.

• 42:02Speaker 01

  And the prosecution saying, no, no, no, no, no. You got the wrong guy.

• 42:06Speaker 00

  Now, maybe it was just a headshot. And had it been full body, that would have been a different story. I don't know. Pathologist Paul Hoyer testified that Robert was beaten and cut with a knife while his head was taped. And that clotting blood from his broken nose sealed the small hole in the tape through which he had been breathing. He described it as a slow, painful death.

• 42:31Speaker 01

  I bet, you know, you're not getting much air at all and it's slowly as minutes tick by, closing up, closing up until there's no way to get any air.

• 42:44Speaker 00

  It'd almost be like drowning.

• 42:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:46Speaker 00

  Or something, you know, along those lines. Joseph Page's friend, Rosemary Evans, testified that he was sleeping on her couch while the robbery occurred. Her brother Alfonso Frayland also testified that Page was at their home the evening before, but he did not see him until late the following morning. A defense DNA expert testified that the DNA analysis linking Page to a glove fragment revealed a third unknown profile as well. Amitati Latham surprised the court with a confession. Towards the end of trial, he testified, I was present and seen everything that transpired inside the house.

• 43:27Speaker 00

  He said he and two others went into the home, pulled guns on Robert Che and duct taped the family before robbing the safe and fleeing. But he said Page and Pitts weren't the other robbers. It was Robert Eetman and Eetman's friend, whom he only knew as O, a bearded, broad-shouldered man. Latham said, I was pretty much following O's lead. Okay.

• 43:53Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 43:53Speaker 00

  Number one, he just all of a sudden, towards the end of it, decides to confess. But then he kind of turns everything on its head by saying, yeah, I was there, but Page and Pitts weren't.

• 44:07Speaker 01

  I mean, talking about muddying the water.

• 44:09Speaker 00

  It was Eetman and this other guy who has never been brought up before named O.

• 44:15Speaker 01

  Is this his way of trying to save his buddies?

• 44:19Speaker 00

  I don't know. It seems strange, doesn't it? Because normally by this point at trial, it's everybody for themselves, you know? You're trying to save yourself. He's not really trying to save himself. That's, that's the strange part about it.

• 44:34Speaker 01

  Maybe he felt like he was gonna go down regardless and he thought, well, I really don't like this guy and this other guy, but I like these guys.

• 44:42Speaker 00

  I'll give, I'll give them a fighting chance.

• 44:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:44Speaker 00

  Maybe. Pitts wasn't mentioned in Latham's account and he claimed that he only saw Paige briefly when he went to a house for a planning meeting on January 8th. Paige was walking out as he was going in. Latham testified that Angelo Shin told a guard at Robert Che's retail shop about the safe and the guard relayed that information to Eetman and Julius Wise, the other suspect who was still awaiting trial while Wise was recovering from hip surgery and couldn't go along for the robbery. Latham had walked away from a halfway house on a drug sentence weeks before and he wanted the money. He testified at the time, being

• 45:29Speaker 00

  a fugitive on the run, I didn't see what was wrong with it.

• 45:33Speaker 01

  I believe him. He thought, I'm a bad guy. I'm on the run. I need some cash. This is an easy way to get it.

• 45:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, they are. I'm already wanted. So what am I now going to be more wanted? But he said, things went wrong quickly. Eetman pistol whipped Robert, then hit him smack dead in the face after O obsessively wrapped his head in tape. Latham testified, I never touched Mr. Che. O and E did all that. And you use the phrase, Gibbs, muddy the waters. They are really muddy at this point.

• 46:07Speaker 01

  Oh, they are. But I'm guessing 400 pound man can do some damage to somebody's face.

• 46:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I guess. And I don't, but here's the thing, and I don't want to focus so much on this guy's weight, but you're not gonna blend in.

• 46:25Speaker 01

  No.

• 46:26Speaker 00

  At 400 pounds, you are really going to stand out. To, to anyone that is there at the home, right? Victims, all of that. Now, I get it if you didn't see them that great and maybe police are only showing you a mugshot. Okay, maybe you get that wrong, but it's, at least in my thought, would be kind of hard to misidentify one of the attackers who weighs 400 pounds.

• 46:57Speaker 01

  And walking with a cane.

• 46:59Speaker 00

  And walks with a cane. The prosecutor pressed Latham about his call to Sybil White for a getaway ride, which Latham said was placed before they realized that Janice had escaped. According to Latham, O was the one who said he had to do what he had to do, not Joseph Page, as Sybil White had testified. So again, man, he is really throwing everything towards Eetman and this guy, Mr. O, while also incriminating himself. But he's basically saying these other two guys, they weren't there. They didn't, they didn't have anything to do with it.

• 47:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, but what type of credibility does he have?

• 47:40Speaker 00

  Well, I don't really know that any of them have a ton. On January 29th, 2010, Joseph Page and Amitati Latham were convicted of second degree murder. Kari Pitts was acquitted of all charges. And that really doesn't surprise me, right? We talked about it. They didn't have the same type of evidence against Pitts that they had against Page and Latham. Now, you also have Latham basically saying Pitts wasn't there. I could understand how the jury would have a hard time convicting him.

• 48:18Speaker 01

  It'd be a stretch.

• 48:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think it would be. ADA Todd Stevens said, "We had somewhat overwhelming scientific evidence against Page and Latham." My guess is that the jury wanted to see that against the third guy. And I think that's true. In a lot of cases, juries want that, you know, very compelling evidence.

• 48:42Speaker 00

  Well, you have it against these two. Why don't you have it against the third guy? Maybe it's because he was there, but way more careful than the other guys? Or maybe he wasn't there. I don't know. Outside court, Richard Chae said the verdict brought some closure, but they were more concerned with the fate of Angelo Shin. He said, "We all know who the real bad person is. He's the person who started it. We believe that if it wasn't for him, everything would be normal." I think he's absolutely correct. Yeah, me too, because like we said, right? He, meaning Angelo Shin, put everything in motion. None of this would have happened, I don't think, without him. Yeah, he's the catalyst here.

• 49:27Speaker 00

  That's a great word. I know. You're surprised. Kari Pitt smiled as he was led away from court to await his formal release from jail. He said, "I've been saying since day one, I'm innocent." On April 13th, 2010, Joseph Page was sentenced to life in prison, plus 40 to 80 years for robbery and other counts. The consecutive sentence will make it impossible for a future governor to commute Page's life sentence. Well, we know where he'll be. Yeah, he's not going anywhere. The judge called the crime cold-blooded, saying, "There can be no justification whatsoever for what occurred.

• 50:08Speaker 00

  This defendant is not capable, in my judgment, of rehabilitation. He should never see the light of day again." When asking for consecutive sentences, the prosecutor referred to Page's record, showing he was previously accused of other violent crimes in Philadelphia, including murder and assault charges, all of which were either withdrawn or dismissed. Page insisted he was wrongfully convicted and was never at the robbery. He told the judge, "At the end of the day, I was railroaded through the whole trial. Everything was fixed." The judge should have said, "Well, I had to do what I had to do." That would have been poetic. But again, like I said, right? They, they had a lot more

• 50:52Speaker 00

  evidence against Page and Latham, DNA, cellphone records. Latham was sentenced to life in prison on April 27th, plus consecutive sentences totaling 32 to 64 years for conspiracy and robbery.

• 51:08Speaker 01

  Some healthy numbers there.

• 51:09Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, again, we know where he's going to be. He's not getting out.

• 51:14Speaker 01

  No.

• 51:15Speaker 00

  Julius Wise's trial started on June 7th, 2010. The ADA argued that Wise was part of the planning, some of which occurred at his home in Philadelphia. A gun that was used also came from his home. Wise was portrayed as a strategist of the attack. Despite never going to the house because of his hip surgery, Wise previously testified in January 2010 that he had no role in planning or carrying out the robbery, but did admit to discarding evidence and keeping some of the robbery proceeds. Why are you getting some of the proceeds if you weren't involved in it at all?

• 51:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. You're getting paid that, uh, you're getting those proceeds because you got rid of some evidence?

• 52:01Speaker 00

  Sounds a little fishy. Prosecutors alleged that Wise provided his cellphone to Carrie Pitts for use during the home invasion. Pitts was not at an afternoon planning meeting on January 8th, 2009, but Wise previously testified that Pitts showed up at his home later that night and took his phone, which he intended to use to communicate with the other robbers. Wise previously testified that Pitts, carrying a duffel bag of loot from the robbery, returned to his home about 6:00 AM on January 9th and told him the other conspirators wanted him to dispose of the items. He kept watches, purses, a jewelry

• 52:43Speaker 00

  box, and $1,500 in cash before dumping the bag in a wooded area. Wise's attorney argued the accusations were overblown and that he would testify that he had a minimal role. On June 8th, 2010, one day after his trial began, Julius Wise pleaded guilty to third degree murder, avoiding a more serious second degree murder conviction and a potential life sentence. Before trial, he had rejected a plea deal for third degree murder. He had no explanation, but his attorney said that why seemed at peace with his decision. On August 10th, he was sentenced to 16 to 32 years in prison.

• 53:24Speaker 00

  He told the court that he felt left out when he couldn't go to Robert Chae's home, but he believed he could have prevented the murder if he had been there. He played a small role in the crime and asked the judge to have mercy on him.

• 53:39Speaker 01

  Sounds like he might've got less if he would've went with a third degree.

• 53:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, I just wonder if this guy looked at, you know, some of the other outcomes and was like, oh, life plus consecutive years. I don't want to roll the dice on that.

• 53:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I want to at least have some time outside of prison eventually.

• 53:59Speaker 00

  On October 1st, 2010, Robert Eaton was sentenced to 24 and a half years in prison, plus four and a half to nine years for a robbery charge. Eaton told the judge he was sorry and made a stupid mistake and was horrified at the result of the crime. Prosecutor said he participated in planning and cover up and he loaned his cellphone to the other defendant and allowed one of them to take a gun from his home. On October 12th, 2010, Angelo Shin was sentenced to 20 to 40 years in prison. On November 5th, Sybil White was sentenced to four to eight years in prison and 20 years of probation, marking the end of the legal proceedings.

• 54:42Speaker 01

  Well, so you think Angelo got off okay, light? Or do you think Angelo should've got more?

• 54:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't know. I mean, 20 to 40 years is no joke.

• 54:55Speaker 01

  No.

• 54:55Speaker 00

  Let's be honest about that. But I, again, I think he was also the mastermind, the catalyst. Nothing happens without him. But he also wasn't there. So I don't know how that all works out in the grand scheme of things. It does make some sense to me that the people who actually killed Robert Chae are going to get the most.

• 55:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 55:25Speaker 00

  And maybe 20 to 40 is the right amount. I don't know. The family's probably going to say, no, he should've got life too. Right? Cause they felt extremely betrayed by him. And they're right to feel that way.

• 55:37Speaker 01

  Or like you said, 20 to 40, maybe ends up leaning more towards the 40, who knows? But um, that's a long time away.

• 55:46Speaker 00

  It is.

• 55:47Speaker 01

  It'll be a old, old man.

• 55:49Speaker 00

  And I, I, I think, you know, whether he does 20, 30, 40, you would have to say, okay, at the end of it, whatever it turns out to be, he paid for his crime. Losing 20 or 30 years of your life?

• 56:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:05Speaker 00

  Or 40 years of your life, that's really hard to imagine for anybody, I think. I, I can't imagine it.

• 56:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know what type of life he would have after spending 40 years in prison, coming out. What's that gonna look like?

• 56:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, he's, he's gonna be a felon. It's, he's gonna have all the difficulties of, that felons have, once they get out of prison. So his life's not gonna be easy, even after he gets out. But as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, you know, Robert Che was known for being a very kind, hardworking person. When his nephew first came to the US, Robert opened his door to Angelo and allowed him to stay for a year. Angelo Shin betrayed his family's trust and set the stage for a violent robbery that ended in his uncle's death, all because he wanted to impress his friends and was what many papers describe as a gangster wannabe.

• 57:03Speaker 00

  And as one prosecutor put it, it, it's just, again, hard to imagine. I'm sure he never thought that this was going to end up with somebody being killed.

• 57:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. But how do you do that to your family? You know, I mean, here's somebody, Robert, and his wife that works hard for their money, and you think, okay, I want to get in with this crowd. I want to be cool like these gangsters. So uh, I'll tell them about how my uncle holds this amount of money in his safe. And um, that'll elevate me up and to this circle of people.

• 57:42Speaker 00

  But even if you don't believe that someone's gonna get hurt, how do you take that chance?

• 57:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:48Speaker 00

  Because you never know when you're sending four, five, however many people are going, right? Known criminals, what's gonna happen? You're really taking a chance with your loved ones lives.

• 58:03Speaker 01

  You really are. And he did.

• 58:05Speaker 00

  He did, and he's paying the price for it. But that's it for our episode on Robert Che. We got a voicemail. You want to check that out?

• 58:13Speaker 01

  Let's hear it.

• 58:14Speaker 02

  Hey, this is Monica Fenster in Buffalo, New York, calling to correct Gibby on the Libby Adami episode when he said Sir Mix-a-lot. It started the baby got back. It was Sir Mix-a-lot, not Tone Loc. He said Sir Mix-a-lot. But it's actually Sir Mix-a-lot, so I had to call and correct Gibby. Love you guys, team, both of you guys. Have a great day.

• 58:41Speaker 01

  Oh, man. Did I mess up?

• 58:44Speaker 00

  Did I do that?

• 58:45Speaker 01

  Did I do that? You know?

• 58:47Speaker 00

  Not Gibby being wrong. No, thanks, Monica, for the voicemail. I actually also got a lot of emails.

• 58:53Speaker 01

  Did you?

• 58:54Speaker 00

  I didn't tell you about them because I know how much it hurts your ego.

• 58:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. Huh.

• 59:00Speaker 00

  You hate to be wrong.

• 59:01Speaker 01

  I do.

• 59:02Speaker 00

  But you were.

• 59:03Speaker 01

  Slightly.

• 59:04Speaker 00

  And Monica pointed it out.

• 59:05Speaker 01

  Yes, Monica did, from Buffalo, New York.

• 59:09Speaker 00

  All right, buddy. That is it for another episode of True Crime All the Time. So for Mike.

• 59:14Speaker 01

  And Gibby.

• 59:14Speaker 00

  Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.