Pod Insights True Crime All The Time Michelle Yvette Busha About this episode In May 1980, a woman’s body was found near Blue Earth, Minnesota. In 2015, the woman was identified as 18-year-old Michelle Yvette Busha, who had been buried in an anonymous grave for nearly 35 years.
Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the murder of Michelle Busha. In 1988, a former Minnesota State Trooper named Robert Leroy Nelson confessed to a litany of crimes. One of these crimes was an unsolved murder that Nelson said he committed in Minnesota while on duty. The details of his confession, as well as his former occupation, shocked people.
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1:46 Speaker 00 Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode 413 of the True Crime All the Time Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson, and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?
1:56 Speaker 01 Hey, I'm doing okay. How about you?
1:58 Speaker 00 Doing great.
1:59 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:59 Speaker 00 We talked about it on Patreon this week, but we both had a really good Thanksgiving holiday.
2:04 Speaker 01 We did.
2:05 Speaker 00 Got to hang out with family. It was nice.
2:08 Speaker 01 Been a good time.
2:09 Speaker 00 Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Sean McKinney jump out to our highest level.
2:15 Speaker 01 Hey Sean.
2:15 Speaker 00 Caroline Gillespie.
2:17 Speaker 01 Well, thanks Caroline.
2:18 Speaker 00 Andrea Edwards.
2:19 Speaker 01 Hey Andrea.
2:20 Speaker 00 Tracy Kinsey.
2:21 Speaker 01 Hey, there's Tracy.
2:22 Speaker 00 Bethany Harnett.
2:24 Speaker 01 Hey, thank you so much Bethany.
2:25 Speaker 00 Emanon Tremaine jumped out to our highest level.
2:28 Speaker 01 I like that Emanon.
2:30 Speaker 00 Naomi Witt.
2:31 Speaker 01 Hey Naomi.
2:32 Speaker 00 And last but not least Alexis Rome.
2:34 Speaker 01 Well, thanks Alexis.
2:35 Speaker 00 Yeah, appreciate the new support. And then if we go back into the vault. This week, we selected Kristen Moser.
2:44 Speaker 01 Thanks Kristen.
2:44 Speaker 00 Yeah, appreciate the long-term support. We also had a great PayPal donation from Lily Goldfarb.
2:51 Speaker 01 Oh Lily, thank you.
2:53 Speaker 00 So thank you to everyone who helps support the show. We have an episode out right now on True Crime All The Time Unsolved where we're talking about 26-year-old Tiffany Witten. She was last seen fleeing a Walmart in Marietta, Georgia after she was apprehended by loss prevention associates. And she hasn't been seen since, but you know, there have been some suspicious types of activity on her social media accounts. And there is a main suspect in this case. So people who don't really like Unsolved might be okay with this.
3:32 Speaker 01 Yeah, this, I don't want to say it has closure, but it's, you know.
3:36 Speaker 00 More people than not believe that there is a person of interest who was close to her. I'll leave it at that. All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All The Time?
3:49 Speaker 01 I am ready.
3:51 Speaker 00 Doing this one a little differently. Now, I titled the episode Michelle Boucher. In May 1980, a woman's body was found near Blueworth, Minnesota. In 2015, the woman was identified as 18-year-old Michelle Yvette Boucher, who had been buried in an anonymous grave for nearly 35 years. A man confessed to the murder and people were shocked to find out who it was. So we almost always title our episodes with the name of the killer.
4:27 Speaker 01 We do.
4:29 Speaker 00 Because the identity of this person came so much later and it's pretty shocking who this person was, I wanted to withhold that information for a little bit.
4:44 Speaker 01 Cause you can.
4:45 Speaker 00 Yeah, it's our show. We can do whatever we want. On May 30th, 1980, a Jane Doe was found in a drainage ditch along I-90 near Blue Earth, Minnesota. The body was a woman between 20 and 30 years old. Her head was shaved, but she had a small patch of hair on the back of her head, about one inch long. No clothing or forms of ID were found near her body. The remains were badly decomposed, which made identification difficult. Now, you and I have talked about, you know, bodies being
5:26 Speaker 00 found. A lot of times, we've done a lot of episodes, whether it's a solved case or it's an unsolved case, you would have to say this is a fairly strange set of circumstances.
5:41 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's got me scratching my head.
5:43 Speaker 00 You know, first of all, what's going on with the shaved head? Is this something that, you know, this woman would have done on her own? Probably not likely. Most women don't shave their head. There are some who do, but by and large, most people don't. And then the fact that she had this small patch of hair on the back of her head, which was said to have been about an inch long. Strange.
6:13 Speaker 01 Yeah. I mean, if it was you, I'd understand because you hold on to any hair that you can possibly still have.
6:19 Speaker 00 If I just had one inch on the, the back and it was just one strand, I wouldn't cut it off.
6:25 Speaker 01 No.
6:26 Speaker 00 Holding on for dear life.
6:27 Speaker 01 Exactly.
6:28 Speaker 00 In August, 1980, Faribault County Investigators and the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension compared the woman's fingerprints and dental records to cases from several surrounding states, but no identification was made.
6:45 Speaker 00 The woman was buried that same month in an anonymous grave at the Riverside Cemetery in Bluer. And then obviously, her case went cold for a number of years. And I always think that's extremely sad. Number one, a person lost their life, but to not even be able to figure out who that person is, means a lot of different things. You can't notify their family.
7:11 Speaker 01 Right.
7:12 Speaker 00 And then at a certain point, a decision is made to bury this person in an anonymous grave because what else are you going to do? You have nothing to call her other than Jane Doe or.
7:29 Speaker 01 Yeah.
7:30 Speaker 00 You know, some people are given some type of Jane Doe-ish type moniker, but they don't know her real name. On January 13th, 1988, Agent Dennis Fear with the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension received a call from Lieutenant David Turner in Smith County, Texas, in regards to a man in custody in Smith County. The man in question was former Minnesota State Trooper Robert Leroy Nelson, who was in custody for criminal sexual conduct involving his 11-year-old son.
8:06 Speaker 01 It was like we're headed down a very disturbing path.
8:09 Speaker 00 Yes. Yeah. Nelson turned himself in and was accompanied by his pastor. The pastor told Smith County officials that Nelson made statements to him about being involved in an unsolved murder in Minnesota in 1980. He also admitted to beating and sexually abusing his young son for years.
8:33 Speaker 01 So I guess it's good that he's went to his pastor and told him this and then they went to the police, but everything that led up to that moment. Is shocking and disturbing.
8:45 Speaker 00 Well, and then let's factor in the fact that this guy used to be a Minnesota state trooper. You know, that's going to shock people.
8:54 Speaker 01 Sure.
8:56 Speaker 00 Nelson was a Minnesota state trooper from 1970 to 1985, and he was stationed in Farah Bowl County, where the Jane Doe was found in 1980. In January 1981, Nelson requested a transfer and moved with his wife and three children to Vergis, Minnesota. He worked out of the patrol office in Detroit Lakes. He later joined a religious group. In 1985, he resigned from the State Highway Patrol and moved to Texas. You ever join a religious group, Gibby?
9:30 Speaker 01 I have not.
9:32 Speaker 00 Now, when I hear religious group, it kind of screams out to me like outside of the mainstream church.
9:40 Speaker 01 Right.
9:41 Speaker 00 Now, could be cult, could not be cults. Your mind kind of goes there. My mind does it at least for some reason.
9:50 Speaker 01 I've thought about joining a cult just for the fun of it.
9:53 Speaker 00 Yeah.
9:54 Speaker 01 You know.
9:55 Speaker 00 You make more money as a leader, but you have more fun as a follower.
10:00 Speaker 01 Exactly.
10:01 Speaker 00 Nelson spoke to investigators from the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension and the County Sheriff's Office and provided details about the unsolved murder. He claimed he committed the murder while on duty one night, but he didn't know the woman's name. So, I mean, I think we have to kind of take all of this in. You, we talked about him going into the police station with his pastor. Did he just unload on this pastor all at one time? Or had they been talking through some of this stuff for a period of time?
10:40 Speaker 01 And he's pastor's like, I think it's time for us to go visit the police now.
10:46 Speaker 00 And he must have talked Nelson into it, right?
10:50 Speaker 01 I'm thinking when he started talking about abusing his son that's still alive at that time. The pastor thought we gotta get him into the police to protect that boy.
11:02 Speaker 00 Yeah, no, I'm, I'm sure that thought was there, but I don't know the ethical constraints around the whole confession type thing. You know, you think about client attorney privilege.
11:20 Speaker 01 Right.
11:20 Speaker 00 There's doctor patient confidentiality. There's a lot of things like that.
11:26 Speaker 01 You think clergy?
11:27 Speaker 00 Well, the clergy has something similar. Now, some of those have caveats, which, you know, involve somebody saying they're going to hurt themselves or hurt somebody else, or, you know, that's when they're allowed to break that oath or that whatever you want to call it. I don't know if that exists with the clergy or not. And it may depend on.
11:53 Speaker 01 Domination.
11:54 Speaker 00 Did you say domination?
11:58 Speaker 00 In, in what way does that word play in?
12:02 Speaker 01 It doesn't.
12:03 Speaker 00 Oh, okay. No, I meant like denomination. That's what you meant. You said domination. Yeah, you're right. That's where I was headed. And but there's no way that I could have, or I should have, I guess, put the fact that you were trying to say denomination.
12:23 Speaker 01 Just thought the very key piece of that word at the beginning.
12:27 Speaker 00 But how many times have I told you, leave your personal life at home?
12:32 Speaker 01 Yeah.
12:33 Speaker 00 So he's giving investigators details about this unsolved murder. He said the murder occurred on or about May 26, 1980. He was watching traffic when a dark colored van let a young woman out on I-90 near the Breslin exit. She started hitchhiking and he picked her up. About 45 minutes later, the woman became enraged over his sexual advances. He handcuffed her and proceeded to sexually assault and torture her before strangling her. He disposed of her body in a drainage ditch. And he admitted to throwing away the woman's clothes, jewelry and purse.
13:17 Speaker 00 So I know we've touched on this before, but you have a person in power. And you would have to say a police officer, state highway patrol. You know, these are individuals with a lot of power. But here's the other thing that crossed my mind. If you're a young woman who's hitchhiking, right? And you see a state highway patrol person stop and say, you know, offer to give you a ride. Would you be much more apt to take that ride than you would from another person?
13:55 Speaker 01 I would say yes.
13:56 Speaker 00 I would say yes as well, because why? We think of these types of individuals as they're to protect and serve.
14:07 Speaker 01 Yeah, they're safe.
14:08 Speaker 00 They're safe. Obviously this guy was not safe.
14:12 Speaker 01 I mean, that's why, you know, back in the day, probably even today, you know, when, when somebody that has a police light come up behind you, you know, a lot of people will pull over. You know, they're, they're not a, uh, but if it was just a plane car and someone's flashing your lights at you, are you going to pull over? No, you're going to keep on going down the road. But as soon as they put that light on, you're like, oh, well, it's a police officer. They're not going to hurt me.
14:39 Speaker 00 Well, and you're also required by law, right? To pull over.
14:43 Speaker 01 Pull over somewhere safe or whatever.
14:44 Speaker 00 Yeah. Former lead investigator Jerry Kate spoke to Fox nine about Nelson's confession. He said he had her handcuffed at that time. She's hollering and screaming a lot. He said he had pliers in the car and he took the pliers and pulled some of her fingernails out.
15:04 Speaker 01 The heck, man? Is this like mafia collecting the money time?
15:09 Speaker 00 So he sexually assaulted her. He tortured her and then he strangled her with a cord and left her body in a ravine near I 90 east of Blue Earth. But after speaking to Nelson, investigators determined his admissions regarding Jane Doe were too nebulous and vague to justify prosecution. There's a good word of the day for you.
15:35 Speaker 01 Nebulous.
15:36 Speaker 00 Nebulous. Now Nelson was charged with criminal sexual conduct in Minnesota involving his son and was brought back to answer those charges. So he's confessed to two different things. One, a murder and the other, you know, abuse, both physical and sexual of his young son. I just found it strange that investigators thought what he said was too vague because it sounded pretty specific to me.
16:11 Speaker 01 I did, I thought the same thing too. So I'm guessing they just needed more detail?
16:17 Speaker 00 Well, and maybe they just thought, well, we have no way to corroborate his statement. So can we really move forward with a prosecution? Yes, he's confessing, but if we can't prove any of the, the things that he's saying, is it worth moving forward? Maybe that's what they thought. According to case file documents, Nelson made a disturbing handwritten statement on January 7th, 1988. He wrote, "I began molesting children when I was about 12 years old. My parents and another couple that were neighbors would go out to party and I was left in charge of kids."
17:00 Speaker 00 He said, "One victim was about four years old and he molested her eight to 10 times. He did the same to another girl who was nine."
17:09 Speaker 01 Wow.
17:10 Speaker 00 He also said that he molested his cousin several times when he was 12 or 13 and she was just four or five years old.
17:19 Speaker 01 Sick.
17:20 Speaker 00 And then at the age of 28, he said he molested his 10 year old niece eight to 10 times.
17:26 Speaker 01 Wow.
17:26 Speaker 00 This is, I mean, just a lot of admissions of really heinous crimes. Some of these victims, young as four years old. You're one sick SOB in my book.
17:42 Speaker 01 Yeah.
17:43 Speaker 00 And I don't see how anyone can look at that any other way, but to be sickened and outraged.
17:52 Speaker 01 Makes you wonder what made him do those things.
17:55 Speaker 00 Well, he wrote that he'd had the urge to sexually assault children for as long as he could remember. I guess he also exposed himself dozens of times over the years at public rest areas, parks, and occasionally near schools. He also peeped into windows when he was young. And, you know, we talked about a number of serial killers who have had some of these same traits, right? Peeping Tom, voyeurism, stealing of women's underwear off.
18:34 Speaker 01 Right.
18:35 Speaker 00 Clotheslines, you know, that's in the background of a lot of serial killers. But exposing yourself in a park or a public rest area or near a school? What kind of thrill is someone getting out of that?
18:52 Speaker 01 Well, some type of sick thrill is what he was getting out of it.
18:56 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, maybe it's the, the, the taboo, the riskiness of it all, someone else seeing, I don't know what it is.
19:06 Speaker 01 Yeah, I don't think there's ever been a time somebody would have exposed themselves and the other party been, oh, I've been waiting for that, for someone to do that to me.
19:19 Speaker 00 Yeah.
19:19 Speaker 01 Come on over here.
19:20 Speaker 00 Yeah, like it's just, it's just welcomed.
19:23 Speaker 01 Yeah.
19:23 Speaker 00 But maybe that's part of it as well. You know, the perpetrator knows that the, the person seeing is going to be shocked and it's almost like you're forcing them to see something they don't want to see. I, I don't know. I'm trying to dive into, you know, these people's minds, but as we always say, it's not that easy.
19:46 Speaker 01 No, not at all.
19:48 Speaker 00 But I want to go back to this statement he wrote. He had the urge to sexually assault children for as long as he could remember. He said he started when he was 12 years old and you just wonder Gibbs, how does that develop?
20:04 Speaker 01 I mean, sometimes you're a victim yourself at a young age.
20:08 Speaker 00 But, and we're going to find out that he was.
20:10 Speaker 01 Yeah.
20:10 Speaker 00 We are. He wrote that while he was living in Mexico, he became aware of the fact that he had molested his son for many years. He actually used those words. I became aware. Well, you weren't aware, you became aware. That's a strange choice of words.
20:30 Speaker 01 Yeah.
20:31 Speaker 00 Almost like I didn't know what I was doing until this point. And then all of a sudden I realized.
20:39 Speaker 01 There's always that follow-up question, right? Once you realize what you were doing, did you stop?
20:45 Speaker 00 Well, he also claimed that this brought up memories of when his own father raped him. So, I mean, that's where, you know, you said a lot of times, these types of individuals experience, you know, sexual abuse themselves and he claims that he did at the hands of his father. He said he confessed everything because he recognized that he needed help. And to me, this is, you know, one of the interesting facets of this story. Now, this is not a person who was caught through some type of advancements in DNA.
21:23 Speaker 01 No.
21:23 Speaker 00 This is a guy who voluntarily made the decision.
21:28 Speaker 00 To walk into the police station and confess to a murder and to abusing his son.
21:37 Speaker 01 And thankfully, he did.
21:39 Speaker 00 Yeah.
21:39 Speaker 01 Decide to do that.
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23:44 Speaker 00 Call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org. Please play responsibly. 21 plus. Physically present in Connecticut, Michigan, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and West Virginia only. Void in Canada. Eligibility restrictions apply. Non-withdrawable spins issued at 50 spins per day for 20 days. Valid for select games only and expire each day after 24 hours. Spins values vary. See terms at casino.draftkings.com/promos. Ends November 22, 2026 at 11:59 PM Eastern Time. Nelson wrote, "I have done everything that my son has said and probably more, occurring over a continuing period of many years.
24:29 Speaker 00 I wish I knew why." While incarcerated in Ferbowl County, Minnesota, he gave a detailed confession to the murder. He spoke to investigators over the phone on April 15, 1988, and said that his memories were becoming more clear to him. He thought the victim's name was Caroline Marie Jacobson, but said these were just impressions. The victim got out of a dark van and was arguing with the people inside. He picked her up and they got off the freeway at the Blue Earth exit. He drove onto a gravel road where they had a conversation. They went to a field and he had the impression of him standing behind the victim with a
25:14 Speaker 00 cord around her neck, but that was all he could remember at that time. He potentially remembered handcuffing the victim, but not removing her clothing. And he kept using this word, "impression," which I thought was a strange word.
25:31 Speaker 01 Yeah. Strange way of saying recalling his memories.
25:35 Speaker 00 That he's not sure, or he believes this is how it happened. On October 21st, 1988, Nelson was convicted of sexual assault in Texas and sentenced to life in prison. He was also charged with first degree manslaughter in 1988, according to CBS. On July 17th, 1989, Nelson did an interview with county deputy sheriff Jerry Kate. According to case documents, he said, okay, the incident occurred, I believe it was a Sunday night. May 24th of 80 was the night that I had an accident with Frankie Drake.
26:18 Speaker 00 I took the following day off, which was a Saturday, and I worked the Sunday night. The Sunday and Monday that I worked before I took off on vacation. I didn't do very much. I just drove around here and there and parked along the side of the road. And spent some time at the sheriff's office, basically just kind of put in some time. Didn't do very much patrolling. Sunday night, it was out east of Bluer and parked up on the north side of the Breslin Exchange on I-90. I was parked off the freeway on the road that goes off to the north. And I was maybe a block away from the freeway interchange where I could kind of watch traffic.
27:00 Speaker 00 But I wasn't. You wouldn't notice the police car there. So, all right, we already know this guy did some horrible things.
27:09 Speaker 01 Right.
27:10 Speaker 00 He's also kind of outing himself as a terrible police officer as well. Yeah, I'm just kind of putting in my time. I'm, I'm just riding here and there, but I'm not really doing much.
27:22 Speaker 01 Not gonna really patrol a lot, you know?
27:24 Speaker 00 He went on to say, anyway, it's probably about nine 30 at night. It's completely dark and it's before, you know, like the 11 o'clock coffee break time. So that's about nine 30. That's what I'm thinking. And I saw a van. I remember it to be dark colored. I think it was blue and it would have been in the middle 70s. Ford van drove up, stopped at the stop sign and sat there for a little while. And it sat there for a few seconds and the side door opened and a gal got out. I believe there were two other people in the front of the van. Anyway, the door shut on the van and the thing went back down on the freeway and back westbound on 90.
28:07 Speaker 00 The gal's standing there and she crosses the ramp and starts down the ramp. I started the car up. This is maybe three or four minutes later and drove up to where she was walking down the freeway. I stopped sort of alongside of her and got out. She was up by the front fender, front corner, and I asked her for some identification. And she produced some kind of identification. I just remember it being a plastic identification card. Now, the name that I had given you before, I believe is correct. Just about dead positive on the first name. That's probably the only name I would have remembered.
28:49 Speaker 00 The woman's name was either Catherine or Kathleen. The middle name was Marie and the last name was Jurgensen or Jorgensen. So, you know, on the one hand, Gibbs, he's giving some very detailed information.
29:07 Speaker 01 He is.
29:08 Speaker 00 But on the other hand, he's also very sure about the name. Or there's a couple of possibilities of names, but he's pretty positive. It's, it's one of two first names or last names.
29:23 Speaker 01 Cause it's a little bit different than the name that they originally had.
29:26 Speaker 00 Yeah, you're right. It's close, but it's different. He recalled that the woman didn't have a noticeable accent, but she could have been from the Midwest or the East. And you and I talk about accents a lot.
29:42 Speaker 01 I've got a lot of them.
29:43 Speaker 00 You do. Most of them sound very, very similar. But, you know, we do talk about people being from different parts of the country, having different accents. A lot of times, you know, when you're traveling, you can tell where somebody's from, or
30:01 Speaker 01 You can.
30:01 Speaker 00 If somebody's traveling through Ohio here and you hear them talk, okay, they're from New York, they're from Boston, they're from Minnesota.
30:11 Speaker 01 See, right there. See, like when you go to Minnesota, you know, if you're there long enough, you start talking like you're from Minnesota.
30:17 Speaker 00 Well, but let's flip it around. If you're in Minnesota, if you live in Minnesota,
30:23 Speaker 01 Yeah.
30:24 Speaker 00 A lot of other people's accents are going to sound strange to you. They're, they're going to be very noticeable.
30:31 Speaker 01 Yeah, I agree with you.
30:33 Speaker 00 Some people have said that we sound like we have southern
30:36 Speaker 01 They do.
30:37 Speaker 00 accents.
30:38 Speaker 01 Until you're down in the South and they don't think we sound like we're from there at all.
30:41 Speaker 00 No.
30:42 Speaker 01 Though if we want to, we can talk pretty, you know, slow it down and draw things out a little bit like, you know, some good butter.
30:51 Speaker 00 That, that didn't sound southern at all. That sounded more Forrest Gump than it did anything.
30:59 Speaker 01 Forrest Gump's more southern than anything.
31:01 Speaker 00 Well, that is true.
31:03 Speaker 01 Mama said.
31:04 Speaker 00 Nelson said he asked her to get in his car and she complied. He didn't write her name down and didn't call dispatch to report what he was doing. Normally he would call in a hitchhiker to see if that person was wanted. He explained, I don't know if I just never got to it, or if I just didn't do it because of what I thought might happen later. I don't know. Seems to me more likely to be the latter of those two things.
31:33 Speaker 01 I think so.
31:34 Speaker 00 He saw, you know, what he thought was a pretty 18 year old girl, and I think he knew he was going to do something. And therefore it would not be in his best interest to call it in.
31:49 Speaker 01 Yeah, he didn't want to document that he put this girl in his car.
31:52 Speaker 00 Yeah, and I'm just not buying the, oh, you know, maybe I just forgot. I think he had a, a plan.
31:59 Speaker 01 Yeah.
32:00 Speaker 00 And that plan involved specifically not calling it in. They were in his patrol car headed west on I-90. He asked the woman what happened. She said she was heading west to visit some friends. She was riding in the van with people she had known anywhere from a few days to a week. They got into an argument because she was asked to cooperate with them sexually, but she refused and was kicked out of the van. Okay, it's kind of rough.
32:31 Speaker 01 It is kind of rough. You need to cooperate with us sexually.
32:35 Speaker 00 You either go along with our sexual plan here or you're walking. And she said, okay, open the door because I'm not, uh,
32:45 Speaker 01 Not into that.
32:45 Speaker 00 Not into it. Nelson continued in the interview. As we talked, she, uh, the way that she talked was sort of leading. And by that, I mean that she was kind of flirting sexually. And of course I was returning that probably. Okay, let's break this down. First of all, was she flirting sexually? Was she trying to, you know, kind of putting something out there in the air? Or was that all in his mind?
33:18 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think his perception was warped.
33:22 Speaker 00 And then he says, and of course I was returning that probably.
33:27 Speaker 01 Okay, buddy.
33:29 Speaker 00 He said he continued driving and ended up eight or nine miles east of Blue Earth, down a gravel road. He was looking for a quiet secluded place. Because their conversation led him to believe she would cooperate with his sexual advances. He said she was talking as to lead me on and I was eating it up and wanted to take advantage of the situation. So she literally just got out of a van and gave up a ride to start walking because she didn't want to cooperate.
34:04 Speaker 01 Yeah.
34:05 Speaker 00 With, you know, someone's sexual advances, but she's going to cooperate with yours. And even if she was, let's say flirting.
34:17 Speaker 00 This is a state trooper who is on duty. I mean, let's not forget that part of it.
34:26 Speaker 01 Yeah, he should be shutting that down.
34:28 Speaker 00 Right. He's saying, I wanted to take advantage of the situation. You're not at a bar, meeting people. You're doing a job for which you're getting paid for. That job should not involve trying to have sex with people you pick up in your official capacity.
34:46 Speaker 01 Yeah, definitely should not.
34:49 Speaker 00 He said, he turned into a field about 100 yards north of the freeway alongside a drainage ditch. He got out and went to the passenger side. He opened the door and the young woman got out. Now, the following details come from his confession. He said, I began to make advances towards her and she sort of cooperated. But I got the feeling that she wasn't really going to do what she had kind of hinted or led me to believe. I had her take the jacket off and I was kind of messing with the T-shirt. I won't say that she panicked, but she realized that, you know, she, I realized and she realized, I guess,
35:33 Speaker 00 that she either changed her mind or didn't meet it in the first place or whatever. And at that point, I sort of forced her to take off the T-shirt. And that's when she began to indicate that she wasn't going to go through with any sexual advances. Okay, so that's just part of it, but I want to kind of talk about that first part. I feel like, you know, he might be telling the truth here, but it almost seems that he's, he could be massaging it as well.
36:06 Speaker 01 Yeah, I feel like he is and also feel like it's a abuse of power right here.
36:11 Speaker 00 There are no doubt it's an abuse of power, but I almost feel like he's softening it. She was saying things that led me to believe that we were going to have a sexual encounter. And then at some point, she must have changed her mind. And it was at that point that I forced her to take off her T-shirt. Okay. He continued by saying, at that point and at that time, I handcuffed her with her hands behind her back and caused her to perform oral sex on me. And by this time, she's very upset. And what she's talking about is getting back at me, getting me fired, getting me put in jail,
36:52 Speaker 00 all kinds of things, rightfully so, but I don't like to use it as an excuse. But the anger and the frustration and a whole lot of stuff that was buried deep inside of me that I didn't even know was there. And coming out in my assault of this lady and in the things I did next. She was screaming and carrying on that she was going to see me fired and in jail and in prison and all kinds of things.
37:18 Speaker 01 Well, you're abusing her right now.
37:21 Speaker 00 Yeah.
37:21 Speaker 01 She's pissed.
37:22 Speaker 00 He does say rightfully so. She's upset. Yeah, no shit. She's handcuffed and forced to perform oral sex on a state highway patrol officer. He said, instead of just kind of a sexual interlude that maybe would have been forgotten and passed off if I hadn't forced her to do anything. Now I was looking at some serious problems. But now I had not only done something that was wrong as far as the policy and everything else and wrong in the eyes of law enforcement. Now I had actually done something and caused her to perform a sexual act on me that she was not cooperating with.
38:05 Speaker 01 So weird how he describes that.
38:07 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, I think I understand what he's saying. You know, not only had I, you know, broken every policy that existed as far as it pertains to my job, but he knew he was, what he was doing was criminal. He was a police officer after all. Obviously, he's going to know that restraining someone who's innocent, right, against their will and forcing them to engage in a sexual act. That they don't want to do, that's a crime. He said he knew he was in over his head. He realized the woman was right. He was going to go to prison. If anyone found out what he did.
38:51 Speaker 00 He said, and to try to shut her up, to try to scare her into somehow believing that she should be afraid of me and so on. I found pliers. Nelson was in another vehicle because of his earlier car accident, but he found the pliers in a toolbox. He threatened to pull the woman's fingernails off if she wouldn't stop shouting. According to Nelson, and that only led to more abuse and screaming and carrying on. And like I said, something inside me, you hear it all the time. The phrase, something inside me snapped. But all the frustration and all the anger, plus all that I had done in the last few minutes that she was right about.
39:36 Speaker 00 What I did was yanked out, I believe, two or three fingernails to show her I meant business. And I realized that it had gone so far, so fast, you know, in a few minutes time. So I do think maybe he's being pretty honest about what he's done.
39:56 Speaker 01 He is.
39:57 Speaker 00 Now, he, he might be sugar coating it some, he might be massaging it, like I said earlier, but he's admitting to doing horrible things.
40:06 Speaker 01 And I'm carrying to you, that hurts like hell.
40:09 Speaker 00 It can't feel good. I mean, there is a reason why that has been a torture method for hundreds and hundreds of years. Because it must hurt like hell and it probably works.
40:23 Speaker 01 Let's try it out.
40:25 Speaker 00 But is it going to work in a situation where you don't want someone to tell on you for what you've done? And that's where I feel like it was a little misguided. Now, If you're a CIA operative, which you may or may not be, I know you're not at liberty to confirm.
40:49 Speaker 01 Never.
40:50 Speaker 00 But you also don't deny, that might be a tactic you would use, right? To extract information out of someone because if they give you the information, you'll stop hurting them. But that's not the scenario we're talking about here.
41:07 Speaker 01 It's not.
41:08 Speaker 00 It's almost like he's saying, I don't want you to get me in trouble for what I've already done. So I'm going to pull some of your fingernails out and that's going to what? Keep you from going to the police later on? If anything, you're just adding ammunition for why this person would want to go to the police.
41:31 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think so.
41:32 Speaker 00 And I thought it was interesting that he said, I realized it had gone so far, so fast in a few minutes' time.
41:40 Speaker 01 Escalated quickly.
41:41 Speaker 00 But who was behind the escalation?
41:44 Speaker 01 Him.
41:44 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, she did nothing to escalate this situation. He said, he snapped off the drawstring in the bottom of the woman's jacket, tied it around her neck and strangled her. She couldn't put up much of a fight because she was handcuffed and kneeling on the ground. He stood behind her, nodded the rope and strangled her from behind. He said, and I remember the anger and the emotion and all that, like built up and almost out of nowhere in just a minute or two. It was crazy. And I remember strangling her and the hatred. And I hated myself. I hated her. I hated everything at that moment.
42:26 Speaker 00 You know, one of the things that I found very interesting about this case was you do have so much from Nelson. Some of it I'm sure is very truthful. Some of it is embellished or skewed maybe in his favor a little bit, but you got a lot of information here from not only what he did, but how he was feeling as he was doing.
42:52 Speaker 01 He's doing a pretty good job of pulling you into his story.
42:56 Speaker 00 He said he removed the rest of the woman's clothing and rolled her body into a drainage ditch. He put her clothes and purse in his vehicle and later took the clothes to a landfill. He believed the woman was wearing a wig because he didn't remember her having a shaved head. He believed he threw the wig out with the rest of the evidence. Now, we talk a lot about killers, not maybe knowing exactly what to do after they have committed some type of murder. Well, you know, who would have a pretty good idea of how to get rid of evidence? Someone in law enforcement.
43:36 Speaker 01 State trooper?
43:37 Speaker 00 More than the average person, right? I mean, they're, they know kind of how law enforcement works. They know what they're going to be looking for. You know, folks, we're getting closer to Black Friday and Cyber Monday where everyone's going to be racing to get the best deals. But what about the retailer on the other end, trying to get every one of those orders out the door during peak season? Well, ShipStation is built to tackle peak season. We've been using ShipStation for our podcast merch for years and they're a valued partner. ShipStation is an end-to-end order fulfillment platform built to handle the order surge of
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45:03 Speaker 00 On August 25th, 1989, Robert Leroy Nelson pleaded guilty to first degree manslaughter. He also pleaded guilty to first degree criminal sexual conduct involving a family member from 1977 to 1981, when he was living in Minnesota. He was sentenced to a total of 16 years to run concurrently with his life sentence in Texas.
45:31 Speaker 01 So he just got 16 years for that stuff?
45:33 Speaker 00 Yeah, it's kind of hard to believe, but the first degree manslaughter is kind of hard to believe too.
45:40 Speaker 01 Yeah.
45:41 Speaker 00 If this went down even the way he said it did, that seems to be a cold-blooded murder.
45:49 Speaker 01 So why such a light charge?
45:52 Speaker 00 Yeah.
45:53 Speaker 01 And I know it's not light, but compared to what he's done?
45:56 Speaker 00 Oh, I think it is light.
45:57 Speaker 01 Yeah.
45:58 Speaker 00 I think you're right. Faribault County Attorney Arvid Winland said at the time of sentencing, is quoted by the St. Cloud Times, "He told us he didn't know the woman, except from what he could recall at looking at her. At the time of the incident, Nelson hasn't come up with anything new that's going to help." Nelson's request for parole was denied in January 2015 due to the violent nature of his crimes. So this is a little strange, Gibbs, when you think about it, because the case was solved, but investigators still didn't know the identity of the woman buried in Bleuer.
46:40 Speaker 01 They just have what he thinks could be her name.
46:43 Speaker 00 And he's given a couple of different ones. Retired police officer Deb Anderson was primarily responsible for getting the police to exhume the body and perform DNA testing. Anderson learned about the case in 2001 from a friend in law enforcement. She decided she wanted to help identify the woman, and she began advocating for exhumation in 2003. Anderson told the Star Tribune in 2014, "She doesn't have an advocate. She doesn't have anybody." And it's a pretty true statement. You know, how can you have someone when nobody knows who you are?
47:23 Speaker 01 Right.
47:24 Speaker 00 There's no family member going to come in and help out because
47:29 Speaker 01 They don't know she needs the help.
47:30 Speaker 00 They don't know. Anderson couldn't find much information online and she felt that the county sheriff didn't offer much information in response to her inquiries. She set up a website to publish the details of the case and included dozens of missing persons cases that could be the Jane Doe. She persuaded one company to send thousands of mass emails about the case. She also found an artist to create a sketch of the Jane Doe based on her skull x-rays from her autopsy records. And we've talked about, you know, sketch artists before. Some of the stuff that they do, to me is fascinating.
48:13 Speaker 00 When you think about, you know, taking a skull and you've seen before where they do like clay modeling
48:22 Speaker 01 Yeah.
48:23 Speaker 00 to fit the contour of the skull and try to figure out what the person might have looked like. Here we have a person who is drawing a sketch solely based on x-rays of a skull. That's
48:39 Speaker 01 Amazing.
48:39 Speaker 00 Amazing. If they're even close to what this person looked like in real life. According to Reveal News, Anderson's campaign sometimes put her at odds with local officials whom she accused of dragging their feet. But it was said that the biggest obstacle was funding. Exhumation and DNA analysis was estimated to cost $10,000. With Deb Anderson's help, it would only cost a thousand. A funeral home and local construction firms donated their services for the exhumation and several technology firms volunteered to do the DNA analysis for free. And this is a problem. We've discussed it many times.
49:25 Speaker 00 There are pieces of evidence all throughout this country sitting on shelves, sitting in evidence rooms.
49:34 Speaker 00 That if tested could potentially lead to a DNA sample, which could possibly lead to the solving of a case. But you gotta have money.
49:48 Speaker 01 You do.
49:48 Speaker 00 To get all that stuff done.
49:50 Speaker 01 Cause you need people to process it.
49:52 Speaker 00 Yeah. And what I think Deb was doing was kind of amazing. She was taking as many obstacles away as she could. You know, she went out, got some of these people to donate their services. Okay. Taking the reasons for not being able to do it away, one by one. The goal of the exhumation was to collect DNA samples and perform a facial reconstruction. Mike Gormly took over the Faribault County Sheriff's Office in 2007. He met with Deb Anderson to discuss the case. In 2008, he told the Faribault County Register,
50:37 Speaker 00 he was not sure we would gain anything from an exhumation. On August 12th, 2014, the Blue Earth Jane Doe was finally exhumed for DNA sampling. As part of the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension's Unidentified Human Remains Program, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children created a new sketch based on x-rays and a skull scan. The Smithsonian conducted an isotope analysis on a bone and a tooth. A complete mitochondrial DNA profile and a partial nuclear DNA profile were uploaded to national databases.
51:22 Speaker 01 Getting busy now, right? They're doing the things that need to be done.
51:26 Speaker 00 Well, they're, yeah, they're doing the things that could potentially identify this young woman. If they don't do anything, if they don't exhume her body and at least attempt to get a DNA profile, is anything ever going to change? And I would say the answer is probably no. The odds are slim. Yeah. Could somebody just walk into the police station and say, yeah, I know who this person is? Sure.
51:55 Speaker 01 Could happen.
51:56 Speaker 00 Call in a tip, but is it likely? I would say no. In mid February 2015, the DNA was uploaded to CODIS and pinged a match to Donald Boucher and Marla Torgerson, two parents of a missing woman who submitted their DNA to CODIS in March 2007.
52:20 Speaker 01 You know, I kind of think this is a step that a lot of parents would take in the aftermath of their loved one going missing.
52:28 Speaker 00 Yeah, I think so as well. I mean, most people want to take every avenue available to them. You know, if you think about the parents of a missing child, if you said to them, you know, here's something that could ultimately lead to the identity of your child, would you not do that? Especially if it's as simple as uploading your DNA to a database?
52:56 Speaker 01 Yeah, why wouldn't you do it?
52:57 Speaker 00 Yeah. I mean, let's face it, it had already been 27 years. On March 5th, 2015, the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension contacted the Matagorda County Sheriff's Office in Texas. They were informed that the unidentified female's DNA was a strong match to Michelle Yvette Boucher, a missing woman in their county. Michelle's remains were positively identified on March 13th, 2015. Michelle Boucher was originally from Bay City, Texas. She was born on September 2nd, 1961, and she was just 18 years old when she was murdered.
53:44 Speaker 00 Don Boucher told USA Today that Michelle was his first child. She was a rebellious teenager and she ran away from home in 1978. Don also told K H O U T V, she wanted her freedom. She left, that's the last time I saw her.
54:04 Speaker 01 I feel like a lot of kids ran away back then, but I don't know if that's true.
54:08 Speaker 00 I don't know if that's true either.
54:10 Speaker 01 Yeah.
54:10 Speaker 00 But we can always go with your feelings.
54:13 Speaker 01 I just feel like that.
54:14 Speaker 00 I would say maybe more did back then than today. I don't know.
54:19 Speaker 01 Did you ever want to run away?
54:20 Speaker 00 No.
54:21 Speaker 01 No?
54:23 Speaker 00 I couldn't wait to go to college.
54:25 Speaker 01 Yeah.
54:26 Speaker 00 But I never wanted to run away. And what was I gonna do? Hop freight cars and carry my hobo bindle? And eat beans out of a can?
54:38 Speaker 01 Beans out of a can.
54:39 Speaker 00 I know you do that, but it's just because you're cheap. I have seen you throw cans on the ground to dent them just to get like 10% off.
54:50 Speaker 01 Yeah, I eat them that night.
54:52 Speaker 00 But don't you think it's suspicious that every can in your shopping cart is dented?
54:58 Speaker 01 Hey, that's, that's their problem. Probably time to get a new stock person.
55:03 Speaker 00 CBS reported that Michelle's family reported her missing on May 9th, 1980. According to the case file, Michelle was last seen by her family in December 1979, heading to Louisiana. From January to May 1980, Michelle made collect phone calls from Indiana and Mississippi and charged them to her father's phone. But her family had not had contact with her since May 1980. So, you know, she left home. She wanted to be on her own, but she did call back home. She did stay in contact.
55:41 Speaker 01 Yeah, check in, give some updates.
55:44 Speaker 00 No, she did so collect, but I'm assuming she didn't have a lot of money. She was fairly young and trying to make it on her own.
55:52 Speaker 01 I mean, who's gonna say no to a collect call? Oh, maybe you.
55:57 Speaker 00 From my kids? I would never say no.
55:59 Speaker 01 No, from me?
56:01 Speaker 00 I don't even accept free calls from you. I'm sure as hell not gonna pay for one.
56:08 Speaker 01 Gibby who? I don't know any Gibby.
56:12 Speaker 00 Michelle's sister, Marla Boucher, was also a teenager when Michelle left. She described her sister as a free spirit who left home to go on an adventure. Michelle planned to visit relatives occasionally, including their grandma. So, I mean, it doesn't sound like she was mad and she just ran away. Right? She wanted to leave home. She wanted to be free.
56:36 Speaker 01 Explore the world.
56:38 Speaker 00 But she was still contacting family. It wasn't like she had disowned everyone and wasn't talking to them. But this is when she encountered Robert Leroy Nelson while hitchhiking in Minnesota and was sexually assaulted and murdered. On February 17th, 1984, Mata Gorda County received a call from the New York State Police in regards to an unidentified female body that matched Michelle's description. They obtained Michelle's dental records, but the NYSP advised Mata Gorda County that there was no match.
57:17 Speaker 00 On May 15th, 1984, the FBI contacted Mata Gorda County in regards to one of their missing persons cases. An unidentified woman was found in Frederick, Maryland on August 4th, 1982. The FBI sent dental records to Texas and a local dentist compared the charts to Michelle's records, but they were not a match. So there was a lot going on back in Texas. They were, law enforcement was, aware that she was missing. I'm assuming, you know, we talked about her family. They hadn't talked to her after a certain part in 1980.
58:02 Speaker 01 But it seemed like efforts being made.
58:05 Speaker 00 Yeah, I think they they listed her. And so there were other jurisdictions who had unidentified female victims who thought maybe they could be a match to Michelle. But as we always talk about Gibbs, how heartbreaking would that be for the family? You know, something's wrong, because like we said, she set out on an adventure. She didn't want to be at home anymore, but she was calling, it seemed somewhat regularly. She was contacting people. When all of that stops, and you have no way to get in touch with her, right? There's no cell phones in 1980,
58:50 Speaker 00 she's not calling. That's got to be a very worrisome scenario. And at a certain point, you know, obviously, they must have gone to the local authorities and said, hey, we think our daughter is missing.
59:03 Speaker 01 Yeah.
59:04 Speaker 00 And then I would think every time, you know, one of these other agencies inquires, or there's a possible match, that would be tough for the family. You know, you don't want it to be her. But at the same time, if she's no longer alive, you'd like to bring her home. You'd like for her to be identified.
59:26 Speaker 01 Sometimes I think it's really hard to comprehend what these families go through.
59:32 Speaker 00 Yeah, unless you've been there. And let's face it, nobody wants to be in that position. But unless you've been there, it's tough to know exactly how hard it would really be. As the years passed, Don Boucher kept his address and phone number the same, hoping Michelle would find her way home. And that has come up, you know, time after time. And it's something that I just could not see changing either. I wouldn't want to move. I wouldn't want to change a single. Bit of my contact information. Now, we've heard in other stories where people moved
1:00:14 Speaker 00 because they couldn't stand to be, you know, walking around that same house. You know, every room was a different memory, just kind of smacking them right in the face. So you can, you can see it from both sides. I think I would be probably more in the camp of, of what Don did, which is, you know, as long as there's hope that she could come back, I ain't leaving.
1:00:41 Speaker 01 Yeah, you're gonna hold on to that hope.
1:00:44 Speaker 00 Michelle's remains were taken to Bay City, Texas in April 2015. Her brother and sister came to Blue Earth to pick up her ashes and bring them home. Marla Boucher told the Faribault County Register, "This town is incredible. It has been a huge comfort to us, my family and my father, that the people of Blue Earth cared so much for Michelle." And it is kind of amazing. And when you hear about these types of stories, Minnesota and Texas are not very close to each other.
1:01:19 Speaker 01 They are not.
1:01:20 Speaker 00 But it doesn't change the fact that, you know, a lot of times, wherever you are, when there's a missing person who is unidentified, the town really comes out and does whatever they can do, because I think they know what that would mean for a family. It's kind of like what we talk about when a child goes missing.
1:01:44 Speaker 01 Right.
1:01:45 Speaker 00 A lot of people are parents. So in your mind, you know, or have a good idea, or can at least imagine what it would be like for those parents. And you would do anything you can to help out.
1:02:00 Speaker 01 Yeah, you want to participate and do the right thing.
1:02:04 Speaker 00 So as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, as of this year, Robert Leroy Nelson is 78 years old and still incarcerated in Texas.
1:02:15 Speaker 01 Maybe he'll call the hotline. We can have a little phone interview with him.
1:02:20 Speaker 00 It would be interesting to talk to a person like that.
1:02:24 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:02:25 Speaker 00 You know, I, I found a lot of his statements to be fascinating. Now, he's a POS for the record books. Don't get me wrong.
1:02:35 Speaker 01 Of course.
1:02:36 Speaker 00 But in studying his, his words, you know, I think it does give you some insight into, you know, what this guy was going through at the time, what he was thinking at the time. Now, what he did still doesn't make sense, but you know, I, I get the picture of Nelson, of a guy who was just kind of going through the motions. He even said it like, I was just putting in time. I wasn't really working, just driving around. Now, was he driving around looking for a victim? Or was this kind of a perfect storm scenario where he happened to see Michelle?
1:03:19 Speaker 00 Get out of a van. She starts walking down, you know, the ramp of the highway, and he goes to pick her up. Now, was that because he had bad intentions from the get-go? Or was he being a police officer up until a certain point? Those, those are the kind of things that, you know, I, I like to try to figure out, but he's the only one who really knows that.
1:03:50 Speaker 01 Yeah. I mean, he got manslaughter. So if it was pre-planned, he would have got, well, I don't want to say he wouldn't have got manslaughter. I mean, they still can.
1:03:59 Speaker 00 Well, I don't think it was, I don't think it was premeditated in the fact that he set out to kill her.
1:04:06 Speaker 01 No, or a woman, really. He said, if you believe him, when the sexual assault didn't go the way that he thought it would, and she didn't care for it, that's when she started threatening him with taking all these different steps of action, right? Going to. Get you fired, gonna call the police, you know, and do this and do that.
1:04:30 Speaker 00 Well, at that end, at that point, it becomes self-preservation in his mind.
1:04:34 Speaker 01 Right.
1:04:35 Speaker 00 I have no choice. I have to kill this woman because she's going to ruin my life.
1:04:40 Speaker 01 Yeah, I can't have that. I can ruin her life. I just can't have a ruin of mine.
1:04:44 Speaker 00 Yeah. Yeah. I think that's exactly what he thought. I don't think this guy's getting out of prison. I think he's going to die in prison. And I'm totally fine with that for, you know, what he's done.
1:04:56 Speaker 01 Yeah. He's right where he needs to be.
1:04:58 Speaker 00 Yep. But that's it for our episode on Michelle Boucher and Robert Leroy Nelson. We got some voicemails, Gibbs. You want to check those out?
1:05:06 Speaker 01 Let's hear them.
1:05:07 Speaker 02 Hey, Mike and Gibby. This is Zach from Missouri. I just was listening to the latest episode and you guys had gotten off on a tangent about off-brand and no-brand and mentioned something about picking stuff off of a fell off the trailer. I reminded me that I saw a recent story of a frozen pizza truck that had overturned and all of the frozen pizzas, all the tombstone frozen pizzas all over the interstate. And it just reminded me that when I saw that, I could picture Gibby scurrying all through the lanes of traffic, picking up as many tombstone pizzas as he could get his hands on.
1:05:50 Speaker 02 Um, but just wanted to share that story with you because I thought it was funny, uh, funny image of that when you mentioned off-brand and no-brand and things off the truck. But I appreciate what you guys do. Uh, just really enjoy the show and team D cat for me and keep your head on a swivel. Grill time ticking.
1:06:10 Speaker 00 All right. Love the voicemail. Yeah. I think he's painting a, a real vivid picture and, uh, it just goes to show you how well the fans get to know you.
1:06:19 Speaker 01 Free pizza.
1:06:20 Speaker 00 Free pizza.
1:06:21 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:06:22 Speaker 00 I can see you like playing a, a, a real life version of Frogger in between cars, uh, on the highway to get your hands on these tombstone pizza.
1:06:32 Speaker 01 I would just be a good citizen trying to clean up the streets and nobody gets hurt.
1:06:35 Speaker 00 Oh, it's more about littering.
1:06:37 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:06:37 Speaker 00 Or somebody skidding on one of these frozen pizzas.
1:06:40 Speaker 01 Exactly.
1:06:41 Speaker 00 It's all about safety.
1:06:42 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:06:42 Speaker 00 But you're still going to take them home.
1:06:44 Speaker 01 Well, you gotta do something with them.
1:06:47 Speaker 03 Hi, Mike and Gibby. This is Brittany from San Diego. This is my first time calling. I have been listening since 2018. You guys were my first podcast and also you guys are with me during my massage sessions because I'm a massage therapist. So it's kind of funny to me that I'm listening to you guys talk about some heinous stuff during my sessions, in my earbud, of course. But you guys have gotten me through many, many, many boring sessions. But I had to call today because I'm listening to the new episode, the Eddie
1:07:27 Speaker 03 Radcliffe one. And when Mike said tripping balls, I laugh, I mean, I laughed so hard. You guys make me laugh at that one. I won't forget for a while. That was hilarious. Maybe next time, say like, high as a kite or something. But anyways, love you guys. I'll keep listening during work and keep your own time ticking. Bye.
1:07:51 Speaker 00 All right. Love it. We were just talking, Gibbs, that my lower back was hurting. I could use a massage.
1:07:59 Speaker 01 You could.
1:07:59 Speaker 00 You always wonder about like a massage therapist. When you're doing that all day long.
1:08:04 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:08:05 Speaker 00 How strong do your hands get? Because, you know, when I give my wife a massage, five minutes in, my hands are starting to cramp up a little bit. So, you know, some of these sessions are 60 minutes, 90 minutes.
1:08:21 Speaker 01 You know, if you're dating a massage therapist, I'm guessing he or she does not want to rub your back when they get home. They're probably like, this is the last thing I want to do.
1:08:31 Speaker 00 No, I, yeah.
1:08:32 Speaker 01 Another massage.
1:08:32 Speaker 00 I get you. I'm just saying, can they, you know, can they crush things that other people can't? Do their hands get like, super strong?
1:08:40 Speaker 01 I'm gonna say.
1:08:41 Speaker 00 I'm not talking superhuman, like Superman or anything.
1:08:43 Speaker 01 I was gonna say, yeah, I think they probably got some.
1:08:46 Speaker 00 Hand strength, right?
1:08:48 Speaker 01 Good fitness in those hands.
1:08:49 Speaker 00 Okay.
1:08:50 Speaker 01 Yeah. Tripping balls.
1:08:53 Speaker 00 That one's more descriptive than high as a kite.
1:08:55 Speaker 01 It is.
1:08:56 Speaker 00 And, and less used.
1:08:57 Speaker 01 So she is San Diegoan?
1:08:59 Speaker 00 Yeah, San Diego.
1:09:02 Speaker 00 You stay classy, San Diego.
1:09:03 Speaker 01 Right.
1:09:04 Speaker 00 All right, buddy. We had one thing in the mailbag. It came from Colorado.
1:09:09 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:09:10 Speaker 00 Some amazing chocolate toffee.
1:09:15 Speaker 00 The person didn't leave their name. I have a good idea of who it is, but I don't want to say it in case I'm wrong.
1:09:20 Speaker 01 Okay.
1:09:20 Speaker 00 Whoever sent it knows who they are.
1:09:22 Speaker 01 Okay.
1:09:23 Speaker 00 We appreciate it very much.
1:09:24 Speaker 01 Thank you.
1:09:25 Speaker 00 But that's it, buddy, for another episode of True Crime All the Time. So for Mike.
1:09:30 Speaker 01 And Gabby.
1:09:30 Speaker 00 Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.
Previous The Gitchie Manitou Murders Next Bruce McArthur Part 1 Page updated November 5, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated