Pod Insights True Crime All The Time The Gitchie Manitou Murders About this episode On November 17th, 1973, five teens went to the Gitchie Manitou State Preserve on the Iowa-South Dakota border to hang out and play guitar. Three brothers found them sitting by the fire and began shooting. Only one of the teens survived the night.
Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss what has become known as the Gitchie Manitou murders. The only survivor was a 13-year-old girl. She was dropped off at home by one of the men, and she was able to give the police many details about what had happened that night. The brothers all had a different story to tell, with each of them blaming someone else for the shootings.
You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetime
Visit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation information
An Emash Digital production
See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Transcript 10,484 words · 4 speakers
0:00 Speaker 00 Every good true crime story has a twist. DraftKings Casino has a spin. Flex spins let you spin your way. Didn't see that coming. That's because flex spins are exclusive to DraftKings. New casino players pay $5 and get 1,000 total flex spins, including 100 lightning link spins. Unlock 50 spins a day at varying values for the first 20 days. You decide where the story goes next. Download the DraftKings Casino app. Sign up with code TCAD and spin your way. The crown is yours. In partnership with DraftKings Casino. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER in Connecticut. Help is available for problem gambling.
0:40 Speaker 00 Call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org. Please play responsibly. 21 plus. Physically present in Connecticut, Michigan, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and West Virginia only. Void in Canada. Eligibility restrictions apply. Non-withdrawable spins issued at 50 spins per day for 20 days. Valid for select games only and expire each day after 24 hours. Spins values vary. See terms at casino.draftkings.com/promos. Ends November 22, 2026 at 11:59 p.m. Eastern Time.
1:49 Speaker 00 Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode 412 of the True Crime All the Time Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson, and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. How about you?
2:00 Speaker 01 Hey, I'm doing OK. How about you?
2:01 Speaker 00 I'm doing great.
2:02 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:03 Speaker 00 We're all getting ready for Thanksgiving.
2:06 Speaker 01 Yes, we are.
2:07 Speaker 00 At the time this comes out, Thanksgiving will be over, but
2:12 Speaker 00 Hope everyone had a great one. We don't know yet because we're taping before. Yeah.
2:17 Speaker 01 I got my turkey cooking, my ham cooking, this cooking and that cooking.
2:24 Speaker 00 While you brought it all over to my house to use my equipment, I don't know. But you loading it all back up cooked to take home is going to be hard to do.
2:35 Speaker 01 It's wrong, but you know what? It saves me a lot of electricity.
2:39 Speaker 00 Yeah. You said, hey, hope you don't mind, but I brought all this over and hey, word on.
2:45 Speaker 01 Hey, when I said, hey, do you mind if I use your oven? You never expected.
2:49 Speaker 00 No. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Nicole Trigunza.
2:54 Speaker 01 Hey Nicole.
2:54 Speaker 00 Bob Bronley.
2:55 Speaker 01 What's going on Bob?
2:56 Speaker 00 Danette.
2:57 Speaker 01 Hey, good old Danette.
2:58 Speaker 00 Jason LaRue.
2:59 Speaker 01 Hey, there's LaRue.
3:00 Speaker 00 Selena Barton.
3:01 Speaker 01 Hey Selena.
3:02 Speaker 00 Rebecca Joe jumped out of her highest level.
3:04 Speaker 01 Well, thanks Rebecca.
3:05 Speaker 00 Dave.
3:06 Speaker 01 Hey, good old Dave.
3:07 Speaker 00 Cynthia Lee.
3:08 Speaker 01 Hey Cynthia.
3:09 Speaker 00 Chief.
3:10 Speaker 01 Chief. I like that.
3:12 Speaker 00 And last but not least Ranger Gal.
3:15 Speaker 01 Hey Ranger Gal.
3:16 Speaker 00 And then if we go into the vault, this week we selected Les.
3:21 Speaker 01 Hey, thanks Les.
3:22 Speaker 00 Yeah. So we appreciate the new support, the continued support. We also had a couple of great PayPal donations from Garland Amick.
3:30 Speaker 01 Hey Garland.
3:30 Speaker 00 And Kim Van Giel.
3:32 Speaker 01 Ah, thanks Van Giel.
3:34 Speaker 00 So appreciate all the support.
3:36 Speaker 01 Yes.
3:37 Speaker 00 We have an episode out right now on Unsolved where we're talking about Brandon Lawson, pretty well-known case. A young man from Texas who disappeared in August 2013 on a remote highway. So that's out. Make sure you pop on over and listen to that. We also dropped a brand new Patreon episode Saturday night.
4:00 Speaker 01 Like our 74th or something.
4:02 Speaker 00 Yeah. Number 74.
4:04 Speaker 01 Yeah.
4:04 Speaker 00 But it was on Donna Scrivo and this is a mom who murdered and dismembered her adult son.
4:13 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think she should lose her mom card.
4:15 Speaker 00 Well, this case is beyond mystifying because she's never even come out and said why she did it. The prosecution put forth a theory, but there really wasn't like a concrete motive. But it's a very fascinating case.
4:35 Speaker 00 All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All The Time?
4:39 Speaker 01 I am ready.
4:40 Speaker 00 On November 17th, 1973, five teens went to the Gitchie, Manitou State Preserve on the Iowa-South Dakota border to hang out and play guitar. Three brothers found them sitting by the fire and began shooting. Only one of the teens survived the night. So we're talking about what has been referred to over the years as the Gitchie, Manitou murders. It's a pretty well-known case. The victims were 13-year-old Sandra Chesky, her boyfriend, 17-year-old Roger Essam, 18-year-old Stuart Beatty, his brother, 14-year-old Dana Beatty, and 15-year-old Mike Hedra.
5:25 Speaker 00 Sandra was in the 7th grade. In 1973, she had moved to the T-South Dakota area within the previous year from Minnesota. Earlier that summer, she was walking back to her car from the concession stand at a drive-in theater in Sioux Falls and saw a handsome boy. It was Roger Essam who stopped to talk to her and asked for her number. All the old concession stand at the drive-in theater.
5:53 Speaker 01 Oh, good times, man.
5:55 Speaker 00 I remember, you know, people piling into trunks just to get around paying for a group of people. There was something kind of magical about the drive-in.
6:07 Speaker 01 It really was. Do you remember the concession stand commercials?
6:10 Speaker 00 Oh, yeah.
6:11 Speaker 01 You know, the hot dog dancing?
6:12 Speaker 00 Sure.
6:13 Speaker 01 Popcorn dancing.
6:14 Speaker 00 Absolutely. But it's just, you know, one of those things that has kind of slowly gone by the wayside.
6:23 Speaker 01 Yeah.
6:23 Speaker 00 For whatever reason, people stopped wanting to watch movies in their car. Maybe it's because they didn't want to hang that speaker, you know, on the side. Scratch your whole side of your Yeah, they were like big metal behemoths. So, you know, they meet at the drive in, they went on three or four dates, often accompanied by Roger's friend, Stuart Beatty, who drove them around in his van. Roger and Stuart were in high school. Sandra didn't think much of the age difference because she spent time in the foster care system and was used to being around older kids.
7:04 Speaker 00 Sandra told the Argus leader that her mother's husband convinced her foster care and a mission school was the best way to deal with Sandra and her siblings. She said, I wasn't a bad girl. I just think he made a mistake marrying a woman with four kids and didn't know how to get rid of us. I think I grew up faster because I had been in two foster homes and then to school at Marty Mission. That was a hard place to be.
7:33 Speaker 01 Kind of forced to grow up pretty quick, I think.
7:35 Speaker 00 Yeah, I think in in certain situations, but how tough is that? I mean, you got four kids and all of a sudden you marry a man who apparently didn't want the kids around? And that was the solution to put them into the foster care system? Rough on them.
7:53 Speaker 01 Either put the kids in foster care or lose me. What kind of person puts a mom in that situation?
8:00 Speaker 00 Yeah, I don't know if that's exactly how it happened, but if so, pretty rough. I want to go back to this age difference, you know, 13 years old, 17 years old. You know, four years is not that big a difference. But, you know, to me it is when you're, one of them is 13.
8:16 Speaker 01 And it's your daughter?
8:17 Speaker 00 Yeah, and it's my daughter. That that would kind of be a tough sticking point.
8:23 Speaker 01 Yeah. And I don't believe I'd be okay with it.
8:26 Speaker 00 No, I don't think you would either. Some people would, some people wouldn't be. I mean, I guess it's just, you know, it, it varies by the situation. On the night of November 17th, 1973, Roger asked Sandra to go to the Gitchie, Manitou State Preserve. They were going to build a campfire, smoke a few joints and listen to Stuart play his guitar. Stuart planned to bring along his younger brother Dana and their friend, Mike Hadrick.
8:53 Speaker 01 Sounds like a good time.
8:55 Speaker 00 Well, you know, 73, let's get into the, what was probably a VW van, you know? Let's load up, let's go, you know, smoke some joints, sit out by a campfire. Heck, I don't know, people might be doing that today, but they're probably doing it in an apartment. They just don't need the campfire.
9:18 Speaker 01 And it's all legal now.
9:19 Speaker 00 And it's all legal in most places. The, the four boys were all close friends. According to Stuart and Dana's brother, Leland Beatty, they were kids that pretty much kept to themselves. There were bullies back then too. So it was the four of them that hung out by themselves, minded their own business. My brothers were into music. Stuart could play guitar pretty good and Dana was learning to play the bass. Those two were real close.
9:49 Speaker 01 We got a whole Dazed and Confused vibe going on.
9:51 Speaker 00 Yeah, because we're, you know, in that time period. That night, their mother was in the hospital with bronchitis. Leland stopped by the house to ask his brothers what their plans were. They said they were going to apart to build a fire and play guitar. Mike's older brother, Bill Hadrick, couldn't remember if Mike told him where he was going. He spoke to the Argus Leader about Gitchie, Manitou, a well-known party spot in Lyon County, Iowa, and said, I was probably out there myself at one time or another, when there were probably a hundred other kids out there. There were a lot of parties at that place, a lot of beer parties.
10:34 Speaker 01 Growing up, been to a lot of big outdoor parties, you know, back in the high school days and really junior high too. And I'm sure you've been to many of them as well.
10:46 Speaker 00 Yeah, I, I don't remember going to a lot of.
10:51 Speaker 00 Outdoor parties? Now, they were, they might've been outdoor, but they were at somebody's house. For some reason, there was always somebody's parents who weren't home.
11:03 Speaker 01 Yeah.
11:03 Speaker 00 And I can tell you, it was never my parents, that's for sure. Because the last thing in the world I was going to do was throw a, a, a big kegger at my house.
11:15 Speaker 01 Yeah.
11:16 Speaker 00 And put my ass on the line.
11:18 Speaker 01 I don't see that being good for you.
11:19 Speaker 00 No, if somebody else wanted to do it, I'll show up and have fun. But you're not going to wreck my house or get me in trouble.
11:28 Speaker 01 You probably were the, uh, and get, and against, uh, the, uh, person, uh, promoting it to your, one of your buddies. Like, hey, your parents are gone. Let's get a keg, let's have a party here.
11:39 Speaker 00 I might've thrown it out.
11:40 Speaker 01 Instigator.
11:41 Speaker 00 A few times. But I'm sure a lot of people listening, you know, can think back to kind of the party spot.
11:49 Speaker 01 Yeah.
11:49 Speaker 00 Maybe that they had around their area where people would meet up and, you know, drink a little beer and do whatever. Mike's sister, Lynette Hadrich Dahl, recalled that Mike told his mom he was going to spend the night with Roger Essam. She gave him some money and watched him leave the house. And this is something that you and I have talked about a lot, that we both did growing up, which was the whole, hey, I'm going to spend the night at so and so's house. When really the plans were something.
12:20 Speaker 01 Much different.
12:21 Speaker 00 Much different. But that was a cover story.
12:23 Speaker 01 Sure.
12:24 Speaker 00 Now, maybe he was going to spend the night with Roger, I don't know. Stuart drove the group to Gitchie, Manitou in his blue van. He parked in the tall grass near a stone shelter. They walked down a narrow path with the Big Sioux River, 30 yards behind them, and settled into a clearing near a natural quartzite wall. So, I mean, it does sound like a cool place. Just to hang out, you wouldn't think you're going to be bothered.
12:54 Speaker 01 Yeah. Just to have a chill night around the fire.
12:57 Speaker 00 Yeah. They built a fire and Stuart played his guitar. Roger stood with his arm around Sandra and Dana and Mike sat by the fire. They'd been there about 20 minutes when they heard sticks snapping. Roger started walking towards the noise and said, per the Argus leader, "Who the hell are you? What are you doing there?" The teens encountered three brothers. 29-year-old Alan Fryer, 21-year-old James Fryer, and 24-year-old David Fryer from Sioux Falls, South Dakota. Okay, I just mentioned, you know, this sounds like a pretty cool place to have a, you know, what you would think would be a chill night.
13:42 Speaker 01 Yeah.
13:42 Speaker 00 Well, that all goes out the window when you encounter three people. Now, you don't know what they're there to do, right? In the beginning, but you, you gotta be a little worrisome, I think.
13:58 Speaker 01 And they're significantly older. I mean, really, 29, 24, 21.
14:03 Speaker 00 Yeah, they're older, but pretty quickly, the teens heard a gunshot. Roger was hit and fell to the ground, dying almost immediately. The teens saw the three men standing on top of the courtside ledge. They shot at the group again. Stuart and Mike were both hit, but not seriously wounded. In her interview with the Argus leader, Sandra recalled that everyone dropped to the ground. Stuart screamed, "I've been shot. It hurts, it hurts." The brothers moved down from the ledge and yelled at the teens to come out of the trees. They kicked at the feet of the teens lying on the ground and told them to quit playing dead.
14:44 Speaker 00 Alan Fryer claimed they were police officers and the teens were in trouble for having marijuana. David said Roger would be all right, and he had been shot with a tranquilizer gun. And Sandra said she believed the brothers at the time. Again, though, this girl's only 13 years old.
15:03 Speaker 01 Right.
15:04 Speaker 00 I mean, most people would know that there is a huge difference between the sound of a tranquilizer gun and a real gun being fired.
15:17 Speaker 01 And it's also coming from somebody a lot older than her, 24, saying, hey, this is what's going on. You don't need to really be worried.
15:25 Speaker 00 Well, and you got one kid on the ground screaming, I've been shot. It hurts. It hurts. So the whole, you know, Roger's going to be okay. We just shot him with the tranquilizer gun. Probably a little hard to believe. Sandra, Stuart, Dana and Mike were forced to walk up a path at gunpoint and Mike was hurt. So Sandra had to help him walk. She still didn't think though, that they were in real danger. The boy said nothing and showed no signs of fear. Sandra thinks that if they did show fear, she would have tried to run and would have been killed. She told the Argus leader years later, I think they were trying to protect
16:07 Speaker 00 me and that's what makes them such heroes to me. And we said it upfront, Gibbs, there's only one person that makes it out of this thing a lot.
16:16 Speaker 01 Right.
16:16 Speaker 00 And so for her to say that she believes they were thinking about her, didn't want her to panic. And, you know, she thinks of them as heroes. I mean, it's, it's really touching if that's the way it went down.
16:32 Speaker 01 Yeah.
16:33 Speaker 00 Sandra's hands were bound as she was placed in the brother's truck. She thought the others were going to jail in another vehicle. The last thing she told them was, well, I guess I'll see you in school. Sandra told the Argus leader, I really thought we were all going to some kind of detention school.
16:52 Speaker 01 Yeah. She felt, you know, her hands are bound, put in the car like it was an official arrest or something.
16:59 Speaker 00 Alan Fryer got into the truck and untied Sandra. He told her she was too young to be busted in a drug deal. When Alan drove off with her, Stuart, Dana and Mike were still alive. Law enforcement believes that James and David Fryer lined up the boys in front of Stuart's van and shot them after they left. So I think we need to, you know, stop and take a minute to talk about these boys.
17:27 Speaker 01 Yeah.
17:28 Speaker 00 You know, Roger was killed first, very quickly, but then, you know, you have Stuart, Dana and Mike who are left behind. And at a certain point, Gibbs, they had to have known what was getting ready to happen. If they were lined up in front of a van and guns were, you know, drawn on them.
17:51 Speaker 01 It's like a firing squad.
17:52 Speaker 00 It had to have been a terrifying situation. And then at the opposite end of the spectrum, you know, you have Sandra, who wasn't really that worried. I'm sure she thought, well, I'm going to get in trouble. You know, I was smoking pot or whatever, but she wasn't in fear for her life.
18:13 Speaker 01 She figured, well, I'll see them all Monday.
18:15 Speaker 00 Yeah.
18:16 Speaker 01 You know?
18:17 Speaker 00 Alan took Sandra back to South Dakota. He stopped at a convenience store in Sioux Falls and bought her a soda. She still believed he was a police officer at this point and said that if she had known differently, she would have tried to run when she had the chance.
18:35 Speaker 01 I bet she would have.
18:36 Speaker 00 And she had the chance, right? He went into the convenience store, left her alone, but she didn't think that she needed to run. The brothers met at a farmhouse near Hartford, South Dakota. Alan Fryer got out of the truck and James Fryer got in, told Sandra to take her clothes off and raped her. When Alan returned to the truck, Sandra told him, per the Argus leader, I was a virgin, you know? He responded, nah, no, you aren't. She told Alan she was only 13 and he appeared shocked and said, I'll do what I can to get you out of this.
19:17 Speaker 01 What a nightmare.
19:18 Speaker 00 So, you know, we go from Sandra believing that, yeah, she's in some type of trouble, but it's not, you know, life threatening or it's not the end of the world to her being told to remove her clothes and being raped at the age of 13. Well, obviously she knew right then and there. This was not what she thought it was. These were not official. These were not police officers.
19:47 Speaker 01 Yeah.
19:47 Speaker 00 This thing was not what she thought it was.
19:50 Speaker 01 At this point, you gotta be really scared.
19:52 Speaker 00 Yeah, I'm sure her fear level rose dramatically. And then, you know, obviously devastating to be raped like that. But then you have this guy, Alan, saying, after finding out that she was only 13, almost acting like he's going to try to help her out.
20:14 Speaker 01 Trying to be the good guy now.
20:15 Speaker 00 Alan told his brothers he would get rid of her. He had a club with him and told her they needed to go into the farmhouse to look for and kill a rodent. She said she didn't want to go with him and Alan didn't make her. Alan drove her home and told her not to talk about what happened. And it's such a strange situation, right? These boys were shot and killed. Sandra was raped, not by Alan, but he was part of the group. And then he just drops her off at home and says, hey, don't, don't talk about this.
20:51 Speaker 01 Yeah, whatever you do, don't tell anybody.
20:52 Speaker 00 Like she's not going to find out later that all of the friends she was with, including her boyfriend, were murdered.
21:01 Speaker 01 Yeah. And she's still going to remain quiet after that?
21:04 Speaker 00 No.
21:06 Speaker 00 This message is sponsored by Raycon. You know, folks, it's almost Black Friday and this year the decision is easy because you get up to 50% off site wide. No overthinking it. And Raycon just upgraded my favorite earbuds, the everyday open earbuds. They now adjust in two directions for a better fit and have a real button for volume and skipping tracks. They have great sound and all day comfort. These earbuds sit just outside your ear canal. So you get a really clear sound, but you can actually hear what's going on around you too. And they're light and the ear hook part rotates, so they actually stay in. Raycon has over 3 million customers and the sound quality is just as good as the way more expensive brands.
21:49 Speaker 00 And if you don't like them, they have a 30 day guarantee. I've been wearing these every day since I've. Got them. They are the most comfortable earbuds I've ever owned. They have a 35-hour battery life. You can connect to multiple devices and switch seamlessly without hassle. Honestly, they've just become part of my daily routine. Go to BuyRaycon.com/tcatopen to get up to 50% off sitewide during Raycon's Black Friday sales. Thanks to Raycon for sponsoring. The best pieces in your closet are the ones you can count on whether you're heading to work, going out, or keeping things casual. And this time of year, Quince makes finding something great for everyone else just as easy. This holiday season, it's where I'm shopping for
22:34 Speaker 00 myself and everyone on my list. Quince focuses on high-quality staples made with premium materials like 100% Mongolian cashmere, 14-karat gold, and Italian leather. All timeless, versatile pieces that feel special to unwrap and become everyday favorites long after the holidays. Their cashmere sweaters start at just $60. And with the weather starting to turn colder, those are going to be my go-to. I have two of the cashmere sweaters, and I absolutely love them. Everything at Quince is priced 50% to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen, so you can give luxury-quality pieces without
23:15 Speaker 00 the luxury price tag. Give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was True Crime all the time. It's the best way to support the show.
23:39 Speaker 00 Terry Johnson, a retired agent with the Iowa Bureau of Criminal Investigation, told the Argus Leader, "Alan wasn't the brightest bulb. After the boys were gunned down, and it was just him and her in the truck. I think he became aware of her as a person, rather than just somebody standing out in the woods. She remained calm, and they talked. And he couldn't bring himself to kill her."
24:04 Speaker 01 Well, I mean, she was smart and she got him to see her as a individual.
24:11 Speaker 00 As a person, and you hear that a lot. Whether, you know, someone's been abducted and their loved one is trying to appeal to their abductor and they're doing it in a way to really humanize the person who's been abducted. You want the abductor to see that person as a, as a real person, a human. Now, did she do that on purpose or did she do it just because she didn't think she was in that much trouble or that much danger? So she was able to stay pretty calm because it wasn't a life and death situation from what she knew of it.
24:52 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's a good point.
24:54 Speaker 00 And so she's just talking like she would have talked to anybody else. Sandra couldn't sleep that night because she was worried about her friends. She called Rogers home around 8 a.m., but no one answered. Sandra and a friend hitchhiked into Sioux Falls and called again. One of Rogers' brothers told her to stay where she was and he would come get her because something bad had happened. On November 18th, Edwin Scott and his wife found the bodies while visiting the nature preserve. They stopped at a picnic shelter and saw three boys lying in the tall grass. They thought they were asleep, so Scott blew his horn. He went over and saw that they were dead. He and his wife drove out of the park to call the police.
25:40 Speaker 00 And we kind of talked a little bit about this on our Patreon episode that came out on Saturday night, but you know, someone out doing something, you know, these people were going to a nature preserve to have a picnic.
25:55 Speaker 01 Yeah.
25:56 Speaker 00 I'm sure the last thing they thought they were going to encounter were dead bodies.
26:03 Speaker 01 Oh, for sure. Last thing they would ever think they'd see. They're probably just excited about looking at the landscape.
26:09 Speaker 00 Maybe some birds, animals, things like that. Roger Essam's body was found the next day at the clearing where the shooting first started. On November 19th, the sheriffs of Minnehaha County, South Dakota and Lyon County, Iowa, held a press conference and gave detailed descriptions of the suspects they were seeking.
26:33 Speaker 00 They didn't say how they got those descriptions. Sandra Chesky wasn't identified in the initial news coverage of the murders because she was being held in protective custody. Also, she was only 13 years old.
26:47 Speaker 01 Good point there.
26:48 Speaker 00 I wouldn't think they would have given her identity anyway. In the days that followed the murders, Sandra looked over mug shots, gave statements, and drove around trying to find the farmhouse where she was raped. But some officers doubted her story. Sandra told the Argus leader, "They weren't mean to me. They just thought that I knew the names of the people that did it, and they wanted them. They didn't want to do all this driving around because in their minds, they thought, why would they let her go? Why did only one of the three rape her? To them, it seemed unbelievable."
27:27 Speaker 00 Now, unfortunately, we have heard many times of the authorities not believing someone's story. But you can see here why her version of events would seem unlikely to the authorities. You know, if they gunned down four people, why would they then, after she had seen all their faces, drive her home and just let her go? It doesn't seem like something a group of murderers would do.
28:05 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's hard. It's definitely a hard pill to swallow.
28:08 Speaker 00 It is, even though that's the way it happened.
28:11 Speaker 01 But you'd have to figure out, if the story wasn't true, why was she lying to them?
28:16 Speaker 00 Yeah, I can't imagine that they thought this 13-year-old girl was involved in the murders. So what would be her reason to lie about it? On November 29, 1973, Sandra identified the farmhouse in Hartford. And, you know, you have to really feel for this young woman, girl, right? She's a 13-year-old girl. She was raped. She then later found out that her boyfriend and three of her friends were all murdered, and she's sitting there looking at mug shots. She's driving around with the police, trying to find the farmhouse where she was raped.
28:57 Speaker 01 Yeah.
28:58 Speaker 00 That's a lot to put on a 13 year old.
29:00 Speaker 01 It's a whole lot.
29:01 Speaker 00 But she did it. While the officers were looking for evidence, Alan Frye passed by in the same truck he used to kidnap Sandra. According to the Sioux City Journal, an Iowa Bureau of Criminal Investigation agent stopped the driver to ask who owned the farm. Sandra approached the truck and shouted, that's him. That's the boss. So, I mean, I'm getting even more badass vibes.
29:30 Speaker 01 Yeah.
29:31 Speaker 00 From this young girl.
29:33 Speaker 01 She couldn't control it. She's, that's him, you know? She needed to shout it out.
29:37 Speaker 00 Yeah, she's pointing him out. She referred to Alan Frye as the boss because he told her he was the leader of the police group making the bust. Alan Frye and his brothers were arrested that day. They were each charged with four counts of first degree murder. Authorities offered no information about the three suspects. The press reported that Alan was a married farmhand with a large family. The other brothers were single and had worked as construction truck drivers. And you know, these murders and the rape were shocking to people.
30:14 Speaker 01 Of course.
30:15 Speaker 00 And then the identification of these suspects had to be shocking as well. Why would these three brothers do what they did? Why would they just go out to this preserve? Shoot four people, kidnap a girl, rape her, and then drop her off back at home?
30:35 Speaker 01 I'm thinking Alan's family, you know, he's got this large family. What are they thinking?
30:40 Speaker 00 Oh, he's married. He's got a bunch of kids. And maybe it's part of the reason why he couldn't bring himself to harm.
30:50 Speaker 01 Yeah.
30:51 Speaker 00 Sandra, after he figured out what her true age was. You know, he had a bunch of young kids. He was a father and maybe, and maybe that's why he let her go.
31:02 Speaker 01 He kind of related to her age and said, I can't do this.
31:05 Speaker 00 It's possible. Alan and David were soon extradited to Iowa, but James remained in South Dakota because he was serving a 90 day sentence for attempted grand larceny. Before his arrest, he was participating in a work release program. Sandra was released from protective custody after the arrest.
31:27 Speaker 01 Well, I guess they felt pretty comfortable. They had all the suspects, so she wasn't in danger.
31:32 Speaker 00 Yeah, I, I, I don't know how safe she felt, but I don't know after an incident like that, Gibbs, if you ever really truly feel safe again.
31:43 Speaker 01 Probably not.
31:44 Speaker 00 The innocence is gone.
31:46 Speaker 01 Sure.
31:46 Speaker 00 And that you're never getting that back. There are going to be times where, you know, those memories flood back. And that's going to be tough to deal with. I think for the rest of someone's life. James Fryer fought extradition, but his habeas corpus petition was denied on February 11th, 1974. Among the extradition papers were statements given to BCI agent Terry Johnson, which indicated two of the brothers had implicated each other. In Allen's statement, he wrote that James was present at the park and took part in the murders. However, James said Allen opened fire and shot one of the teens around the campfire.
32:29 Speaker 00 And what do we always talk about? You know, a lot of times it's not family. It's a group of people. And they're thick as thieves.
32:37 Speaker 01 Sure.
32:38 Speaker 00 Until they're caught and then it's every person for themselves.
32:43 Speaker 01 Quickly turn on each other.
32:44 Speaker 00 Well, here you have three brothers who you would think if anybody would stick together would be three brothers. But even they turned on each other. On February 12th, 1974, David Fryer pleaded guilty to an open charge of murder for the death of Stuart Beatty. The judge said a hearing to determine his degree of guilt before sentencing. The prosecution wanted David to be found guilty of first degree murder. But his attorney argued he should be convicted of second degree murder because the state failed to prove deliberation and premeditation.
33:24 Speaker 01 I think that would be hard to prove.
33:26 Speaker 00 Yeah, it seems like with the, with the facts we have, it would be. I mean, these guys just came out of the woods and started shooting people. Now, if one of them, you know, testified that they planned to go to the preserve to try to find somebody to kill, or they were driving around trying to find somebody to kill. That would be a different story. Sandra testified publicly for the first time on February 19th at the evidentiary hearing.
33:56 Speaker 00 She said that although she was smoking marijuana that night, it did not impair her powers of observation. And you know, that's something that the defense was probably going to try to hammer her on, you know, you were hot. How can we trust your testimony or what you said you saw that night? She said they were sitting around a campfire when they heard twig snapping. Stuart and Roger went out to get more firewood. She testified that she saw David and Alan Friar holding shotguns in the clearing where the shooting started. And you said earlier that this is something out of a horror movie.
34:37 Speaker 01 It really is.
34:38 Speaker 00 You know, it's dark. You're sitting around a campfire and all of a sudden you see men holding guns. Okay.
34:47 Speaker 01 You almost want to piss yourself, I think.
34:49 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, I'm hoping that's all I do. Cause it could go, it could go further than that.
34:55 Speaker 01 It could.
34:56 Speaker 00 Sandra testified that she heard two shots and Stuart and Roger fell to the ground. Alan Friar came forward and ordered her, Mike and Dana to come out. Mike said, who the hell do you think you are? And was shot. Alan marched the survivors up the trail. She never saw Roger after he was initially shot. When Alan drove her away, she saw David and James pointing guns at Dana, Stuart and Mike. So, yeah, she might've been smoking that night. I don't know how high she was, but she gave pretty detailed testimony.
35:36 Speaker 01 Well, I think what happened that night was ingrained in her memory. Wasn't going to go anywhere.
35:41 Speaker 00 Yeah, I absolutely agree with that because it was such a traumatic thing. And I think that can work both ways. Sometimes, you know, being involved in a, an extremely traumatic experience can make you block things out.
36:01 Speaker 01 Yeah.
36:02 Speaker 00 Or it can kind of cement things into your memory. Sounds like for her, it was the latter. But, you know, this testimony about seeing David and James actually pointing guns at the three boys as she was being driven away. That's huge testimony. Cause obviously all three of those boys were shot and later found dead.
36:27 Speaker 01 Yeah, defense lifts, right?
36:29 Speaker 00 Yeah, I'm assuming they didn't have any weapons with them.
36:32 Speaker 01 Lined up like a firing.
36:33 Speaker 00 Why would they need weapons? They're out at a campfire, smoking doobies and strumming guitars.
36:41 Speaker 01 Yeah, they just wanted to have a good night out around the campfire.
36:44 Speaker 00 Right, it's the seventies, you know?
36:48 Speaker 01 We want to go do a campfire right now. By the time you got your repellent spray out, got that on.
36:54 Speaker 00 My hat with the net on it, the mosquito net.
36:58 Speaker 01 You know, do the fire the right way, the, the Mike Ferguson way. Uh, it's going to be morning time.
37:04 Speaker 00 I am a big fire guy, but I do like to make my fires a very certain way.
37:09 Speaker 01 Yes, you do.
37:10 Speaker 00 I have a Lincoln log type system that I use.
37:16 Speaker 01 Three hours later, the fire begins.
37:18 Speaker 00 The defense noted that Sandra didn't say she saw David fire a gun. David admitted to shooting Stewart, but claimed it was an impulsive act after James shot him first. So I just said it was good testimony, right on her part, but she only could say that she saw the two guys pointing guns. I don't think she saw them actually shoot. So here's where, you know, the brothers are, you know, kind of probably turning on each other. Everything turns kind of to self-preservation, right at that point. And their defense attorneys are involved in that as well. But claiming it was an impulsive act.
38:03 Speaker 00 I only shot him because my brother shot him first.
38:07 Speaker 01 My hand just went off like that.
38:09 Speaker 00 Seems like a strange statement.
38:10 Speaker 01 It's a very strange statement.
38:12 Speaker 00 On February 26th, 1974, David Fryer was found guilty of first degree murder and sentenced to life in prison without parole. So obviously Gibbs, the jury didn't buy the impulsive act.
38:27 Speaker 01 Yeah.
38:28 Speaker 00 Concept. Because they went with first degree murder. Alan Friar's trial started on May 14th, 1974. Papers reported that back in February, Sandra was not asked to testify about what happened to her at the farmhouse, but she did file a statement that one of the brothers sexually assaulted her. During opening statements, the county attorney told the court that one of the brothers raped Sandra, but didn't name the perpetrator. The defense argued that Alan was not guilty of murder. Only one shot had been fired from the gun identified as Alan's, and the three boys were still alive when Alan took Sandra away.
39:11 Speaker 00 At Alan's trial, Sandra testified that David Friar fired the first shot that hit Stuart Beatty, and Alan fired the second shot that hit Roger Essa. Alan also shot Mike in the arm. She testified that Alan kept up the pretense that the brothers were law enforcement, and they were busting the teens for marijuana. He told Sandra he would try to get her out of the situation. He bought her a soda and said it would hide the scent of marijuana on her breath.
39:44 Speaker 01 Trying to act like a good guy.
39:46 Speaker 00 She testified that Alan drove her to the farmhouse and identified James Friar as the rapist. She said Alan drove her home and threatened to get her if she told anyone what happened. She gave her first police statement the following morning. So, you know, obviously Alan is trying to say, you know, I didn't kill anybody. I didn't rape anybody, but she's testifying that he fired a shot that hit Roger. And he also shot Mike.
40:20 Speaker 01 And he delivered her to the rapist.
40:23 Speaker 00 Yeah, he absolutely did that. Alan's defense attorney asked Sandra how much she smoked and if she was hot. Sandra said she smoked two joints, but she didn't feel very hot. Sandra was asked if it was possible that James Fryer shot the boys out of her line of vision. She said, as quoted by the Sioux City Journal, "I suppose anyone could have done the shooting."
40:48 Speaker 01 I mean, for a kid, she's doing really good.
40:50 Speaker 00 Well, she's trying to be truthful.
40:52 Speaker 01 Yeah.
40:53 Speaker 00 Sandra repeated that she saw David aiming a gun at Stewart and Alan aiming a gun at Roger, but she didn't actually see them pull the trigger. A pathologist testified that all four boys were killed by shotgun wounds. They were each shot multiple times. A BCI agent introduced Alan's 12 gauge shotgun into evidence. Initially, Alan told the police he threw the gun into a pond, but he later admitted it was at his home in Sioux Falls. A ballistics expert testified, "There was only one shell casing fired from Alan's gun, and it contained number four shot. The only body which had number four shot in it was Mike Hadred."
41:38 Speaker 01 So number four shot, you want to explain that?
41:40 Speaker 00 Yeah, we don't talk about shotguns all that much, but shotgun shells can either contain shot, which is basically a bunch of, you know, small lead balls or pellets or whatever you want to call them, and they can vary in size, which is designated by the number. So you have bird shot, buckshot, and obviously buckshot is a lot bigger as far as the pellets. There's less of them, but they're bigger.
42:13 Speaker 01 Because of the intended target?
42:14 Speaker 00 Yeah, because of the intended target. You can also have slugs too, which are obviously not made up of a bunch of small pellets. It's a slug.
42:24 Speaker 01 Yeah.
42:25 Speaker 00 But this is number four shot. And it's interesting in that they could determine, you know, what size shot was in each body and they determined that only one body had number four shot in it and that was Mike. But this evidence seemed to contradict Sandra's statement that Alan killed Roger Essam. Alan's statement to the BCI was also presented at trial. Alan said the brothers came to the park, saw the van and walked to the campsite. They saw two boys and returned to the truck to get their guns intending to rob them of their marijuana or whatever else they had on them.
43:09 Speaker 00 They lined up on the ledge and the shooting occurred. They marched the teens up the path and he left the scene. So, you know, if he's being truthful, you know, he does provide some insight into at least what they were thinking in the beginning, which was, hey, we know these kids got marijuana. We're going to take that. We're also going to steal whatever else they have on them.
43:34 Speaker 01 So their attention was never to kill anybody. It was just to rob them.
43:38 Speaker 00 According to him.
43:39 Speaker 01 Yeah.
43:40 Speaker 00 And for me, it was always going to be kind of hard to believe that, you know, these three brothers went there with the sole intention of murdering these specific people.
43:53 Speaker 01 Right.
43:54 Speaker 00 I don't, they didn't know them. How could they have known they were there? It always did seem like a crime of opportunity and that's kind of the, the picture that Alan is painting, but it went much further, obviously than a robbery. It ended up with the murder of four people and the rape of a 13 year old girl. In closing arguments, the prosecutor told the jury that Alan should still be convicted, even if he didn't kill anyone, because it's just as if he pulled the trigger himself.
44:29 Speaker 01 I can't disagree with that.
44:30 Speaker 00 Well, you know, that's part of the law in many places. You know, if you and I go in to rob a liquor store and you shoot the clerk, I would be charged with murder as well. In most places, I believe that's how it works, even though I technically didn't pull the trigger. Now, I don't know about 1973. I don't know specifically, you know, state by state, but the prosecutor is arguing it. It's just as if he pulled the trigger himself.
45:03 Speaker 01 I think it's a good argument.
45:06 Speaker 00 You know, folks, we're getting closer to Black Friday and Cyber Monday, where everyone's going to be racing to get the best deals. But what about the retailer on the other end, trying to get every one of those orders out the door during peak season? Well, ShipStation is built to tackle peak season. We've been using ShipStation for our podcast merch for years, and they're a valued partner. ShipStation is an end-to-end order fulfillment platform, built to handle the order surge of peak season and bring all of your orders into one place. So your team isn't scrambling when volume spikes. Automated rate shipping with ShipStation compares rates across UPS, USPS, and FedEx in real time, with savings up to 90% off.
45:50 Speaker 00 So you're not overpaying when volume is high. Over 1 million businesses have leaned on ShipStation to get through peak season, scaling fulfillment up to 40x while cutting costs up to 30%, right when they need that capacity most. Peak season doesn't wait, and neither should you. Get ahead of it today with ShipStation and get 60 days free at shipstation.com with code TCATT. That's shipstation.com code TCATT. Taxes and fees apply. The prosecution speculated that Allen may have used a 12-gauge pump shotgun to commit the murder. The gun that was identified as Allen's was semi-automatic.
46:32 Speaker 01 So what's the difference that they're looking at there?
46:35 Speaker 00 Well, most people are very familiar with a pump shotgun, right? You see them in movies all the time. That distinctive sound of somebody pumping the shotgun. You're loading the shotgun shell by doing it. It's kind of like racking the slide on a pistol. But a semi-automatic shotgun is very similar to a semi-automatic pistol. Every time you pull the trigger, it shoots a shotgun shell. There is no pumping. It's just how fast can you pull the trigger?
47:07 Speaker 01 And it just automatically advances the next.
47:10 Speaker 00 Yes.
47:11 Speaker 01 Always remember that lady in Terminator did the one.
47:14 Speaker 00 The one hand rack.
47:15 Speaker 01 Yeah.
47:16 Speaker 00 And I think that's why the pump shotguns are used so often in movies, because you do get that sound.
47:24 Speaker 01 Dramatic effect.
47:25 Speaker 00 It's very distinctive. You know, when you hear that sound, you're facing a formidable weapon.
47:32 Speaker 01 Very true.
47:34 Speaker 00 You don't get that sound with a semi-automatic shotgun. Although arguably a semi-automatic shotgun is much more deadly because you can pull the trigger a little bit faster than you can pulling the trigger and pumping the shotgun to then pull it again.
47:51 Speaker 01 Yeah, a lot quicker.
47:53 Speaker 00 The defense pointed out that Roger Essam was the only victim who was dead when Allen left the scene. And Roger was killed by a gun that did not belong to Allen. So you can see what they're doing here. But it's very clear. The defense is saying, hey, Allen didn't kill anyone. They also claimed that Allen wanted to save Sandra. The prosecutor responded to this in rebuttal, saying, "The defense has talked about the nice character of Allen Fryer. His character is so nice. He took a 13-year-old girl to be raped by his brother."
48:32 Speaker 01 I mean, so true and perfectly said to the jury.
48:37 Speaker 00 Yeah, now ultimately he did take her home. There's no denying that. But there's also no getting around the fact that he took her from the scene, took her back to that farmhouse where his brother raped her. But the defense is trying to do their job, right? They're, they're trying to paint him as a better guy than his brother.
49:01 Speaker 01 He just mixed up with the wrong brothers.
49:03 Speaker 00 On May 20th, 1974, Alan Fryer was found guilty of four counts of first degree murder, but his sentencing was delayed because his attorney was sick. Then on June 19th, 1974, Alan and James escaped from the Lyon County Jail. Alan pried the lock off his cell door and freed James from another cell. They were arrested later that day in Gillette, Wyoming, driving a stolen vehicle. Now, I gotta ask, you know, how good is your jail? When somebody can just pry the lock off of the cell door?
49:41 Speaker 01 Oh, very good.
49:42 Speaker 00 I mean, this is not Alcatraz, obviously, if we're talking about.
49:46 Speaker 01 I know you've been inside a few of those jail cells and you understand how flimsy they can be sometimes.
49:51 Speaker 00 Yeah, that one you kept me in in your basement at your house for a week was not all that sturdy. I'm still a little sore about that.
50:00 Speaker 01 See, now you turn that on me.
50:01 Speaker 00 But seriously, how do you pry the lock off of a cell?
50:06 Speaker 01 Sounds like he was very resourceful.
50:08 Speaker 00 He must have been. It's not like he had a whole set of craftsman tools in there, I'm assuming.
50:14 Speaker 01 Maybe MacGyver or better yet, MacGruber.
50:16 Speaker 00 MacGruber. He pulled the MacGruber. On August 13th, 1974, Alan Fryer received four concurrent life sentences. So, you know, we talked about it earlier. This concept of no matter really what your participation is in the actual pulling of the trigger. If you're involved in a crime where a murder or murders occur, oftentimes you're given the same consequences as the person who did pull the trigger because you participated in the crime.
50:53 Speaker 01 Yeah, he didn't do anything to stop them from killing anybody. And he didn't go to the police to report anything either.
50:59 Speaker 00 James Friar's trial started on December 12th, 1974. At this trial, Sandra testified that James Friar was sitting in the truck during the initial shooting and joined his brothers when they walked up the trail to a shelter house at the park. She again testified that James Friar raped her. Her handwritten statements were admitted as evidence. She wrote that at one point, James pointed his gun at them and said, "You stand right where you are, or I'll blow your blanking heads off." And I can't say enough, Gibbs, about this, this young girl Sandra. I mean, you've been on the stand before. I've been on the stand before.
51:43 Speaker 00 As an adult, as a 40 some year old man, it was nerve wracking for me.
51:49 Speaker 01 Sure.
51:50 Speaker 00 And I wasn't in trouble, but I was testifying, you know, as to what I knew about something. It's very nerve wracking when, you know, the defense attorney is cross examining you. The prosecutor, not so much because a lot of times there's prep involved. You sit with the prosecutor, kind of know what some of the questions are going to be, but you have no idea what the defense is going to ask you.
52:20 Speaker 01 You don't.
52:21 Speaker 00 What they're going to say and how they're going to try to paint you. Now, my involvement wasn't really anything like that. It was pretty simple testimony, but still it was nerve wracking. I can't imagine what it would be like for a 13 year old girl who's maybe a little older at this point because the, the trials are happening a little later. Maybe she's 14, but still to get on the stand in front of all these people and say, "This man raped me. This man shot so and so, or this is what I saw."
53:01 Speaker 00 You know, that takes a lot of sand.
53:03 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think it'd be very difficult, but clearly she's remarkable.
53:07 Speaker 00 Two BCI agents testified about James's statement to authorities. James told an agent, he met his brothers on the evening of November 17th, and they went to several drinking spots before they came to Gitchie, Manitou, and encountered the five young people. One of the brothers said, they've got marijuana and we've got to get it. James claimed that he fired his gun into the air to scare the teens, and Alan cut loose. According to James, Alan fired the shot that killed Roger Essam. So again, we talked about it, right? Brother turning on brother. You know, at this point, I don't know that it mattered.
53:48 Speaker 00 Some of the, two of the brothers have already been convicted and given life sentences. James is probably apt to say whatever he has to say at this point.
53:58 Speaker 01 Yeah, he's just trying to save his own ass at this point.
54:00 Speaker 00 He's not going to hurt his brothers, I don't think, any more than they've already been hurt. James said he left and went back to the truck. The group appeared several minutes later. Stuart Beatty was having trouble breathing because he was shot in the chest. James claimed he drove away in Stuart's van, but the engine gave out after a short drive. He heard two or three shots and returned to the shelter house area. Alan took the girl away. James and David drove to Sioux Falls to get David's vehicle and looked for Alan. They, James claimed they found Alan smooching Sandra at the farmhouse.
54:41 Speaker 01 Smooching?
54:41 Speaker 00 Well, you know, first of all, James has a very different story than anybody else, including Sandra. You know, if you look at his story, he didn't do anything, Gibbs, right? His version of events paints him out to pretty much be excluded from anything, including the killing. He also claimed Sandra removed her clothing and said she would have sex with all three of them. James claimed he had what he called sexual relations with Sandra, and David did after him.
55:25 Speaker 01 Well, it sounds like he's just trying to get out of the fact that he raped her.
55:28 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, in his version of events, he has a 13 year old willingly removing her clothing and agreeing to have sex with all three of the brothers. Now, if you're a member of the jury who has seen this girl testify on the stand and talk about what happened to her, how much of that story are you believing? Because to me, I'm saying none.
55:57 Speaker 01 Absolutely not.
55:58 Speaker 00 I'm seeing through that, you know, as a guy who's lying and willing to say anything to try to get out of trouble.
56:06 Speaker 01 It's actually gonna piss me off if I was like that.
56:09 Speaker 00 Yeah, I'm with you. That would actually anger me. On December 20th, 1974, James Fryer was found guilty of four counts. Manslaughter in the death of Roger Essam, first degree murder in the death of Michael Hadrich, first degree murder in the death of Stuart Beatty, and first degree murder in the death of Dana Beatty. On January 7th, 1975, James received three life sentences plus eight years and a thousand dollar fine.
56:41 Speaker 01 I always love when they do the plus eight years or whatever, right? After the life sentences, just to like really.
56:47 Speaker 00 Oh, and what gets me is the thousand dollar fine. Like, okay, you've just been handed down three life sentences and then they tack on eight years. And by the way, you're gonna have to pay a thousand dollars. But it is interesting that he didn't get the four first degree murder convictions. He got manslaughter in the death of Roger Essam. According to the Des Moines Register, because James was going to serve life without parole, the DA felt there was no need to subject Sandra Chesky to a rape trial. And I don't know whether the DA, you know, consulted with her on that.
57:29 Speaker 00 If she was okay with that, you know, I'm sure that was not going to be an easy trial for her.
57:35 Speaker 01 Right.
57:35 Speaker 00 She'd already been through a lot.
57:37 Speaker 01 At some point, she probably wants to get her life back on track.
57:40 Speaker 00 Yeah. So that might've been a good thing for her. I don't know. I think you could also have a person who, even though they know this, their perpetrator is probably going to spend the rest of their life in jail, wants them convicted of what they did to them as well. I think some people would want that, but I don't know in this case. Sandra Chesky, now in her 60s, is a mother and grandmother. In 2013, she spoke with the Sioux Falls Argus Leader about what she went through. She said that her classmates shunned her because their parents told them
58:20 Speaker 00 to. She dropped out of school a few months after the murder. Why would this girl need to be shunned? What did she do wrong? She smoked a couple of joints?
58:30 Speaker 01 Yeah. You know, sometimes I think back then, things were handled incorrectly.
58:36 Speaker 00 Oh, yeah. Throughout history, a lot of things have been handled incorrectly. I think what jumps out at me here is it's not, at least as it was reported, the kids on their own doing this. It was at the parents urging, "Hey, don't talk to that girl."
58:57 Speaker 01 She's bad news.
58:58 Speaker 00 Yeah. Why?
59:00 Speaker 01 Because she was having fun, wanting to go sit by a campfire, listen to somebody playing the guitar, and then...
59:07 Speaker 00 Something really horrible happened to her?
59:10 Speaker 01 Yeah.
59:10 Speaker 00 And she stood up like a frickin' rock star and helped get all these people convicted.
59:18 Speaker 01 I think you'd say, "Befriend her. That's a person you want in your life."
59:23 Speaker 00 Well, it's sad. It's sad. Now, her mother was supportive, but she was busy working two jobs. And it was said that Sandra's stepfather was not supportive. Sandra kept her head down for years because she felt ashamed... And alone. Many people judged her for hanging out with older boys that night. Some even alleged she survived because she was in on the murders.
59:49 Speaker 01 Wow.
59:50 Speaker 00 That's I don't, I don't get people, man. I really don't. I don't understand why there seems to be a need by some to really kick people when they're already down. Not bad enough what this girl went through, but then she has to have, you know, people telling untruthful conspiracy theories, you know, on her and saying she was involved in the murders and she got what she deserved. I'm, I'm assuming that's the type of stuff that was, you know, the, the type of vitriol that was coming her way.
1:00:27 Speaker 01 And that's a shame.
1:00:28 Speaker 00 It is. Sandra felt ready to tell her story in 2013 because she wanted her family to hear it from her. She told the Argus leader, my grandchildren are going to Google, get you man to two, and they're going to see my name and read horrific stuff that they don't know about. I just don't want them to find it and be shocked and upset. I want them to know that it was a huge tragedy and that grandma wasn't doing anything bad. And, and that's such a interesting and very sad statement at the same time.
1:01:05 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:01:05 Speaker 00 You know, we have talked about this before, whether, you know, it's somebody who was killed while they were a sex worker. Or in this case, a girl who happened to be with her older boyfriend, smoking a couple of joints. That doesn't mean that you deserve to have these terrible things happen to you.
1:01:29 Speaker 01 Not at all.
1:01:30 Speaker 00 And then for people to pile on. I mean, I just think that's so wrong. I can't emphasize it enough.
1:01:37 Speaker 01 That's just some shitty people.
1:01:38 Speaker 00 The Friar brothers are in their seventies and are still incarcerated. They have never fully revealed their motive. And I don't even know if they had a motive. You know, they're out. They've been drinking. They know these people have pot. They want the pot. Now, they could have taken the pot and taken any money they had.
1:02:00 Speaker 01 Sure.
1:02:00 Speaker 00 And just left. Why they chose to shoot four people that night? And then take Sandra? Why James, you know, chose to rape her? If they don't come out and say those things, then there's nothing you can do but speculate.
1:02:19 Speaker 01 It makes you wonder if they were able to so easily shoot and kill that day. Did they do it before?
1:02:27 Speaker 00 Yeah, it's not like it. It seemed to be a big deal to them.
1:02:31 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:02:32 Speaker 00 So.
1:02:33 Speaker 01 Traumatizing to them.
1:02:34 Speaker 00 Yeah, maybe they were involved in a lot of other things that have never come out. Not sure. Early media reports suggested the brothers were at the preserve trying to poach deer. Former law enforcement officer Kevin Kunkel told the Argus leader, these guys went pheasant hunting that day, but didn't get any pheasants. So they went deer hunting, but couldn't find any deer. That's when they decided to hunt the one thing they could find. Humans. Okay. Scary thought.
1:03:04 Speaker 01 Very scary.
1:03:05 Speaker 00 But I don't know that he's that far off. You know, was this a case where, you know, they didn't want these people to be able to identify them? It doesn't seem to me to be that. You know, in a lot of cases, people are killed because the perpetrator doesn't want to take the chance that they'll identify them later.
1:03:27 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:03:28 Speaker 00 If that's the case, why didn't they just shoot Sandra there at the preserve as well? The whole thing seems, you know, a little random, chaotic.
1:03:40 Speaker 00 What's the word I'm looking for? Almost like thrill seeking.
1:03:44 Speaker 01 Right.
1:03:45 Speaker 00 Maybe. Maybe there was an aspect of that to it. I don't know.
1:03:49 Speaker 01 I'm guessing Alan and the brothers wished that Alan hadn't taken her away from the scene.
1:03:56 Speaker 00 And, and taken her home?
1:03:58 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:03:58 Speaker 00 Yeah. I'm sure they do. But luckily he did because, you know, I don't know that we'd have the answers that we have in this case. And it really is a fascinating case. It's tragic because four people, four young people lost their lives. One young girl was scarred, I'm sure, although it sounds like she's doing pretty well now, but it altered the course of her life. I don't think there's any doubt about that. That's it for our episode on the Gitchie Manitou murders. We've got some voicemails, Gib. You want to check those out? Let's hear them.
1:04:36 Speaker 02 Hi, Mike and Gibby. I don't think you'll ever play this, but I wanted you to know you have a huge fan in Los Angeles, California. I am literally obsessed with the podcast. I think it is the perfect mix of I tune in because I love listening to you guys. I think you're hilarious, hilarious. And I know the point of the podcast is not to be funny. And of course I know that you're you're not, and I never feel like you're making light of people's tragedy, but just some of the comments that you guys make have me literally dying. I love this podcast so much, but I would not want to listen to these cases from anyone else. It's truly you guys that I tune in for. So thank you. And sorry, one more
1:05:17 Speaker 02 thing. I wanted to suggest you do the case of Scott Rattigan out of, I believe it's Fairfax, Virginia or Arlington, Virginia. Very weird case where they have something on video of a guy, but like, no leads, literally no suspects, like no in life and crimes, like very, very bizarre. So suggestion for that case and keep your own time ticking.
1:05:41 Speaker 01 You know how you get your voicemail played?
1:05:44 Speaker 00 Say, you probably won't play this.
1:05:46 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:05:47 Speaker 00 Yeah. Yeah. No, that was a very nice voicemail.
1:05:49 Speaker 01 It was.
1:05:50 Speaker 00 Definitely wanted to play that. Although I probably should have played an unsolved because her suggestion was an unsolved case.
1:05:54 Speaker 01 But hey, you just roll the way you want to roll.
1:05:57 Speaker 00 I do.
1:05:58 Speaker 03 Hi, Mike and Gibby. It's the dispatcher Lisa. Long time no chat. I was just listening to the Tammy police case episode. How the husband wanted her or wanted the police to.
1:06:19 Speaker 03 Take the gun and give it to her because he didn't want to see her. That's not a thing the police department has time to do, to be honest with you. Um, I'm in Illinois also, as you well know, I remember this case. But if we did that for one person, that's all that the police department would be doing is going and dropping things off to people. We have people call all the time wanting us to pick up their keys from so and so and bring them to them. So the officers will stand by while somebody retrieves property or drops off property or drops off the children, one of those things.
1:07:04 Speaker 03 But they're not just going to go and pick up something and drop it off. That is just not the way things work. Anyway, I hope you have a, had a great Thanksgiving because by the time you hear this, it'll probably be after Thanksgiving. Love the show still, still listen to it every week and have a great day. Bye bye.
1:07:25 Speaker 01 Think she meant she was in Illinois.
1:07:27 Speaker 00 Yeah. I think she said Illinois, but hey, uh, we always love hearing from dispatcher Lisa.
1:07:33 Speaker 01 We do.
1:07:34 Speaker 00 As she calls herself. But you know, that makes sense. You know, the police are not courier services. They, they have those. You used to work for one of them.
1:07:41 Speaker 01 I did.
1:07:42 Speaker 00 You know, if you need something taken from point A to point B, that's not, uh, that's not what the police are there for.
1:07:48 Speaker 01 Give it to Gibby, he'll get it done.
1:07:49 Speaker 00 He'll get, he'll get it done in his short brown shorts.
1:07:52 Speaker 01 That's right.
1:07:53 Speaker 00 All right, buddy. We had no mailbag this week, so that is it for another episode of True Crime All The Time. So for Mike.
1:08:00 Speaker 01 And Gibby.
1:08:01 Speaker 00 Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.
Previous Timothy Bliefnick Next Michelle Yvette Busha Page updated November 6, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated