Pod Insights True Crime All The Time Bruce McArthur Part 1 About this episode Bruce McArthur is a grandfather who worked as a landscaper and a mall Santa in the off-season. For nearly eight years, McArthur lived a secret life as a serial killer, primarily targeting men in The Gay Village, an LGBTQ+-friendly area of Toronto.
Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the Canadian serial killer Bruce McArthur. In part one of the Bruce McArthur episodes, we’ll cover the police investigation and how McArthur was first identified in connection with missing men. Rumors about the missing men and a possible serial killer in Toronto’s Gay Village started in 2010. McArthur had a habit of targeting South Asian or Middle Eastern men who struggled with their sexuality. He knew many of his victims, which meant there was a connection to him; the police just had to put all of the pieces of the puzzle together.
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1:48 Speaker 00 Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode 414 of the True Crime All the Time Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson, and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?
1:58 Speaker 01 Hey, I'm doing good. How about you?
1:59 Speaker 00 I'm doing great.
2:00 Speaker 01 Good.
2:01 Speaker 00 We just talked about it on our Patreon episode for this week, but we're both having a good week.
2:07 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:07 Speaker 00 I'm happy and excited because my kids are coming home. This Saturday.
2:14 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:14 Speaker 00 And they've got a couple of weeks off from school. They're going to be home. So that's always cool.
2:20 Speaker 01 Going to force you to come out of this basement.
2:22 Speaker 00 Maybe a little bit, yeah.
2:23 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:24 Speaker 00 But I will to see them.
2:25 Speaker 01 That's a good thing.
2:27 Speaker 00 Let's go ahead and do our Patreon shout outs. We had RZA.
2:30 Speaker 01 Hey, RZA.
2:31 Speaker 00 Astrid Cox.
2:32 Speaker 01 What's going on Astrid?
2:33 Speaker 00 Brooke Marshall.
2:34 Speaker 01 Thanks, Brooke.
2:34 Speaker 00 Lee Linder jumped out to our highest level.
2:37 Speaker 01 Oh, you're awesome, Lee.
2:38 Speaker 00 Kathy.
2:39 Speaker 01 Hey Kathy.
2:40 Speaker 00 Jimmy Schneider.
2:41 Speaker 01 What's going on Jimmy?
2:41 Speaker 00 Michelle Carmichael.
2:43 Speaker 01 There's Michelle.
2:44 Speaker 00 Miranda B.
2:45 Speaker 01 Oh, good old Miranda.
2:46 Speaker 00 Sally Sheppman.
2:48 Speaker 01 What's up Sally?
2:49 Speaker 00 Tyler 1015M.
2:51 Speaker 01 Well, thanks 1015M.
2:53 Speaker 00 Which is very specific.
2:54 Speaker 01 It's very.
2:55 Speaker 00 And last but not least, the machinist gardener.
2:58 Speaker 01 Well, thanks gardener.
2:59 Speaker 00 And then if we go back into the vault.
3:02 Speaker 00 This week, we selected Jeff Harden Jr.
3:05 Speaker 01 Well, thanks Jeff.
3:06 Speaker 00 Yeah, appreciate the new support, the continued support, all of them. So Gibbs, we have an episode out right now on True Crime All The Time Unsolved. And we're going back over a hundred years to talk about Bella Wright. Bella was riding her bicycle to visit a relative when she encountered this man on a green bicycle. Some witnesses saw them together. Then hours later, her body was found, but police identified this guy. So there's a ton to get into. I don't want to give too much away. I want people to, to check this episode out because it's about as close to being solved as an unsolved case can be.
3:47 Speaker 01 Sure. Very interesting.
3:49 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah, very interesting. All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All The Time?
3:55 Speaker 01 I am.
3:56 Speaker 00 We're starting, uh, part one of a two parter on Canadian serial killer Bruce MacArthur. This is a guy who is a grandfather who worked as a landscaper and a mall Santa. But for nearly eight years, MacArthur lived a secret life as a serial killer, primarily targeting men in the gay village, an LGBTQ plus friendly area of Toronto.
4:25 Speaker 01 A mall Santa.
4:26 Speaker 00 You know, I did watch Bad Santa.
4:28 Speaker 01 Yeah.
4:29 Speaker 00 The other day. I hadn't seen it in a while and I forgot how raunchy that movie is.
4:36 Speaker 01 Is that the one with Billy Bob?
4:37 Speaker 00 Yeah.
4:37 Speaker 01 Yeah.
4:38 Speaker 00 That is a raunchy movie.
4:40 Speaker 01 Yeah, not one for the whole family.
4:42 Speaker 00 No, not, not a Christmas, uh, movie, uh, for the kids by any means. And you know, what I really found strange and interesting about Bruce MacArthur was that, you know, most of his victims were either South Asian or Middle Eastern men, who struggled with their sexuality. Some of the victims dealt with addiction and homelessness. But, you know, to target specifically South Asian or Middle Eastern men, that seems kind of strange to me from a serial killer perspective. Not something that, that we've seen a lot of.
5:26 Speaker 01 It's not typical.
5:27 Speaker 00 No, I, I don't think it is. I mean, people have their type.
5:32 Speaker 01 Right.
5:33 Speaker 00 And when I say people, not just serial killers, right? Everybody has their type. Whether you're talking about dating or, or whatever it is, serial killers do as well.
5:44 Speaker 01 Sure.
5:45 Speaker 00 But most of the time we see, you know, that it's a, it's a specific gender or the person might have a specific trait. I don't know that we've seen very often someone targeting people specifically from a, a region outside of where they live.
6:06 Speaker 01 If you were one, would you like target like, I don't know, what would your target be like?
6:10 Speaker 00 If I was one, meaning a serial killer?
6:13 Speaker 01 Yeah.
6:14 Speaker 00 So you want to play devil's advocate on me being a serial killer? And you want me to say who I would target?
6:23 Speaker 01 I think you'd probably target like, uh, podcast co-host. In their mid 40s to 50s, uh, maybe slightly older.
6:34 Speaker 01 That's, that's what I'm thinking.
6:35 Speaker 00 Okay.
6:36 Speaker 01 I don't know.
6:36 Speaker 00 Maybe.
6:37 Speaker 01 Could be wrong.
6:37 Speaker 00 Maybe. Yeah. I, I don't know how anybody would answer that question.
6:42 Speaker 01 Well.
6:44 Speaker 00 And if they were being honest, then everybody should be scared of that person.
6:50 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
6:51 Speaker 00 So in part one of the Bruce MacArthur episodes, we'll cover the police investigation and how MacArthur was first identified in connection with missing men. Rumors about the missing men and a possible serial killer in Toronto's gay village started in 2010. Forty year old Skandara Navaratinum went missing on September 6th, 2010. He was last seen around 2 a.m. with two men at Zipper's nightclub near church in Carlton Streets in the village. The police believe he was murdered that day. A friend reported him missing on September 16th after not hearing from him for days.
7:36 Speaker 00 And I think that's a little different than what we normally see in a lot of the episodes that we cover. That's 10 days before this person was reported missing.
7:48 Speaker 01 I think when you're single and you don't have that daily interaction with people at home, I think that distance of time can occur.
7:58 Speaker 00 Yeah, I think there's a lot of variables, right? How much family do you have? How close are you with that family? How often do you speak with them? Are you single, alone? You don't live with anybody? Are you not going into a specific, you know, work site where they're going to miss you? A lot of different variables involved. But, you know, I did say early on that MacArthur targeted South Asian and Middle Eastern men. So we are going to be talking about a lot of people with names that are a little harder to pronounce than, let's say, a normal episode.
8:42 Speaker 00 And we struggle in most of our episodes, let's be honest.
8:45 Speaker 01 You really do.
8:47 Speaker 00 I really tried to go out of my way to listen to a bunch of pronunciations of these names, but like I always find, they're all over the map.
9:00 Speaker 01 Sure. Yeah. I'm here to help you.
9:02 Speaker 00 Well, you always are. Skandara Navaratinum, who went by the nickname Skanda, was a charismatic man who loved animals and was an environmentalist. Now, you love animals.
9:15 Speaker 01 I do love animals.
9:17 Speaker 00 You also have called yourself an environmentalist. I don't know what you do for the environment, but.
9:24 Speaker 01 Drive a truck.
9:25 Speaker 00 You drive a gas guzzling truck. But you think of yourself as an environmentalist. But, you know, people always get on some of these billionaires who are always talking about the climate and the environment, but yet they are jetting all around the world.
9:45 Speaker 01 Hey, when I jet, I want to use one engine. I don't use both.
9:48 Speaker 00 Just to save on.
9:49 Speaker 01 To save on, help the environment.
9:51 Speaker 00 Okay.
9:51 Speaker 01 I should say, turn that other engine off, pilot.
9:55 Speaker 00 Safety be damned.
9:56 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's right.
9:57 Speaker 00 Skanda was an immigrant from Sri Lanka. According to the CBC, his brother described him as a jovial character in their family. He wanted them to have a better life and financially supported them while he was living in Canada.
10:13 Speaker 01 Jovial. Haven't heard that in a long time.
10:15 Speaker 00 And you probably won't hear it.
10:17 Speaker 01 Probably. You're probably exactly right.
10:18 Speaker 00 I don't think people consider you all that jovial.
10:22 Speaker 01 Nor should they.
10:24 Speaker 00 No, it's a word that a lot of people don't use anymore. But I, I think, you know, are we getting into why maybe it took so long for someone to report him missing? You know, it sounds like he's in Canada, sending money back home to family in Sri Lanka. So maybe the only people to miss him quickly would be the friends that, that he had made in Canada.
10:51 Speaker 01 Yeah.
10:53 Speaker 00 Scanda was always willing to help others. His friend Kevin Nash recalled a time when his son was briefly missing. And Scanda got on his bike and drove around nearby parks, looking for the boy. Scanda went missing over Labor Day weekend in 2010. And we, we said it, right? He was at Zipper's nightclub and last seen with an unknown man. A few months later, a second man disappeared from the gay village. On December 29th, 2010, 44 year old Abdul Basir Faze called his wife and told her that he was working late. However, he was last seen at Steamworks, a bathhouse in the gay village.
11:38 Speaker 00 The police believe he was murdered on the day he went missing.
11:43 Speaker 01 You ever taken a steam?
11:44 Speaker 00 No, I don't know that I've ever taken a steam. I thought you were going to ask me if I've ever been to a bathhouse.
11:50 Speaker 01 Well, that was my next question. Have you taken a steam? Was it at a, like a bathhouse, like one of those Turkish ones?
11:55 Speaker 00 That's why I have to take my time answering these questions from you because I feel like I'm getting ready to open myself up to something. I, I think I've been in a sauna.
12:05 Speaker 01 Yeah.
12:06 Speaker 00 But I've never, is that a steam? Is that the same thing? I know it's, it's a little, I don't know the differences of some of these things.
12:16 Speaker 01 Take a steam, it's going to be a little more foggyish.
12:18 Speaker 00 Steam room, right?
12:20 Speaker 01 You see hot moisture jetting out at you.
12:22 Speaker 00 Yeah, no, I've only ever done like the, the wood encased sauna type thing.
12:29 Speaker 01 Hot sauna box.
12:30 Speaker 00 Yes.
12:31 Speaker 01 Yeah. Yeah. Remember that movie Easter Promises?
12:35 Speaker 00 It sounds familiar.
12:36 Speaker 01 But I can't remember his name, uh, good actor.
12:39 Speaker 00 Okay. Well, I'm glad you started this conversation up then.
12:43 Speaker 01 But that's like, there's a big fight scene.
12:46 Speaker 00 Is it Clive?
12:47 Speaker 01 No, it's the, um, he does a movie like called Hinda Go or Hindal Go or something. We ride a horse across.
12:55 Speaker 00 Hidalgo.
12:56 Speaker 01 Hidalgo.
12:57 Speaker 00 Are you talking about, uh, Vito Morgan?
13:00 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's him.
13:01 Speaker 00 Something, something.
13:01 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
13:02 Speaker 00 Yeah, okay.
13:03 Speaker 01 Yeah.
13:03 Speaker 00 Yeah, this, this is great podcast. I gotta be honest with you.
13:07 Speaker 01 But he was in this movie called Eastern Promises where.
13:09 Speaker 00 You got that part.
13:10 Speaker 01 He got in a big fight, uh, inside the, uh, bathhouse.
13:14 Speaker 00 Hmm. Okay. Was that worth it? Was that worth it?
13:18 Speaker 01 Probably not. If I could pull it back or, you know, I'd say edit it out, but you don't like to, you'd like to leave this in.
13:24 Speaker 00 Oh, I'm leaving that in. Fazey's cousin reported him missing to the Peel Regional Police on December 30th. Abdul Basir Fazey was a funny and intelligent man who loved his two daughters. He had been married since 1999. A friend recalled that the last time they spoke, Fazey said he was working overtime to buy Christmas presents for his children.
13:49 Speaker 01 A dedicated guy.
13:50 Speaker 00 Yeah. And I know there's a lot of parents out there who do. You know, Christmas is expensive. I don't think there's anyone who would argue with that. Now, some people spend more, some people spend less, some people go overboard, spending money they don't have. I mean, you know, we've all done probably a mixture of all those things. The one thing I will say is that, you know, a lot of the things that your kids put on their Christmas list can be very, very expensive. And you start to see those pile up on there. You're like, oh, well, you know, obviously you're not getting all that. But you might have to work overtime or even a second job to pay for some of that stuff.
14:32 Speaker 01 Especially as your kids get older, the gifts get more expensive.
14:36 Speaker 00 But Abdul Basir was living a secret life. He was hiding his sexuality from his family. According to the CBC, Fazey spoke to a childhood friend about the possibility that he was gay while he was still living in Iran. His friend told him he was in the wrong place to be gay and he should, quote, "try to find God or leave."
15:01 Speaker 01 I think he's right. Probably not the right place to.
15:05 Speaker 00 Be openly gay?
15:06 Speaker 01 Yes.
15:07 Speaker 00 Iran?
15:08 Speaker 01 Right.
15:09 Speaker 00 Doesn't sound like it from what this guy was saying. On January 4th, 2011, the police found Fazey's car abandoned on Moore Avenue in the area of St. Clair Avenue East and Mount Pleasant Road. When speaking to the police, Fazey's wife said her husband had no enemies. He wasn't involved in criminal activity and spent most of his time working or with family. He seemed happy and was looking forward to going on vacation. They weren't having any financial problems at the time. The police took the family's computer as part of the investigation. As quoted by the CBC, his wife learned that her husband was living a double life
15:52 Speaker 00 and having numerous extramarital affairs with men. The investigators felt that he abandoned his family and didn't want to be found.
16:01 Speaker 01 Probably a confusing time for the family. Hearing this, wondering, well, wait a minute, what's really going on here?
16:08 Speaker 00 Well, number one, I, I think if you're a wife that finds this out about your husbands, that's going to be a startling revelation. But here it's on the heels of him going missing. And then I think, you know, this presents kind of a quandary for the police. Is this guy really missing? Or does this information mean that, you know, he was already kind of leading a, a second secret life and he decided that he was going to abandon his family for that life? Now, I, I don't think it's right to assume stuff like that.
16:49 Speaker 01 Of course, yeah.
16:51 Speaker 00 And the research didn't say that the investigators did. It said they felt that that could be the case. His wife made attempts to locate him by sending emails and reaching out to friends, both at home and abroad. None of them knew about Fazey's secret life. His cell phone was soon disconnected. So that's, that is truly a secret life. Sounds like he didn't share that with anyone.
17:18 Speaker 01 For whatever reason, maybe he was scared because the religious side of it, or?
17:25 Speaker 00 Or maybe he was scared of losing his family?
17:27 Speaker 01 Yeah.
17:28 Speaker 00 Maybe he just didn't feel like there was anyone in his life who he couldn't trust with that information. I don't know. His wife later initiated divorce proceedings to get custody of the children. She wrote in one court filing per the CBC. I believe Abdul Basir Faze has abandoned his family, including his children. I believe he is avoiding all responsibility to his family, both emotional and financial. He is avoiding completing a divorce and seeing and supporting his children. So it sounds like his wife and the police kind of thought he's still alive, but he voluntarily left.
18:10 Speaker 00 Detective Marie Catherine Marsault from the Peel Regional Police was investigating the disappearance of Abdul Basir Faze. She told colleagues, there might be a serial killer in the gay village and she was laughed at. She tried to contact the Toronto Police, but didn't get a call back. She sent an email comparing Faze's case to other disappearances in the gay village and received no response. The Toronto Police told the BBC, there was no record of the correspondence.
18:43 Speaker 01 Well, it's probably good. There was no record because it wouldn't look good for you if there was some records.
18:48 Speaker 00 Well, maybe there was a record at one point and that record miraculously disappeared.
18:55 Speaker 01 It got Ray Donovan?
18:56 Speaker 00 It got Ray Donovan after the serial killer aspect came out. I mean, I, I get it. You have this theory that there's a serial killer. Are some people going to be skeptical? Yeah, I could see that now being laughed at. I, I don't know there. If you've got quite a number of people who are going missing from this same locale. Is it that far fetched to think that there might be a serial killer involved?
19:29 Speaker 01 Not at all.
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21:41 Speaker 00 Luxury quality pieces without the luxury price tag. Give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was true crime all the time. It's the best way to support the show. Nearly two years later, on October 18th, 2012, 58 year old Majid Kayan was last seen by a friend near Alexander and Yonge Streets. Authorities believed he was killed on or about this day.
22:22 Speaker 00 So this is the third individual that we're talking about. And all three, the police believe they were murdered the same day they were last seen. So what does that mean?
22:36 Speaker 01 If this is being done by the same person, they're killing them pretty quickly.
22:41 Speaker 00 Yeah, this is a not a person that is taking their victims and keeping them somewhere for a period of time before killing them. Kayan's adult son reported him missing on October 25th. Majid Kayan moved to the gay village after his marriage broke down. He lived on Church Street and frequented bars in the area. Sources didn't really have a lot to say about his life, but we do know that he had many older siblings, nieces and nephews. He had two children and three grandchildren. He told his friends he was in a relationship with the man,
23:26 Speaker 00 but his family knew him as his roommate. His family maintains that Kayan was not gay.
23:33 Speaker 01 I don't know if he was or wasn't, but that would be hard for some family members to come to terms with.
23:39 Speaker 00 I think it can be. I mean, I, I kind of feel like the signs point to him being in a relationship with a man. I mean, he moved to what is known as the gay village.
23:51 Speaker 01 Right.
23:52 Speaker 00 And he apparently told friends that he was in a relationship with the man. In November 2012, the police created a task force called Project Houston to investigate the disappearances of Skandarav Navaratinam, Abdul Basir Faze and Majid Kayan. On September 17th, 2012, the police obtained the first judicial order of Project Houston, which was a tracking warrant for a vehicle. The task force would obtain 40 more warrants during its operation. So, you know, it's obvious Gibbs that, you know, we went from a point of,
24:35 Speaker 00 you know, one officer saying, I think it's possible we have a serial killer. She was laughed at to a task force being established. Was that because, you know, the numbers increased? Or, you know, just more signs started to point to that fact? I don't know, but obviously at some point in time, someone made the decision that they thought a task force was warranted. On December 20th, 2012, the police obtained a general warrant for a residence in London, Ontario, owned by James Alex Brunton. Brunton was investigated as a suspect in the disappearance of Skandarav Navaratinam.
25:21 Speaker 00 At least six other judicial orders were obtained in connection to Brunton.
25:26 Speaker 01 They must have really thought they had something here.
25:29 Speaker 00 Yeah, connected to this James Brunton guy for sure. Now, he was later ruled out as a suspect in the disappearances, but he did plead guilty to child pornography charges in January 2014. On November 11, 2013, Bruce MacArthur was first interviewed by the police after an analysis of Scanda Navaratinum and Abdul Basir Faze's belongings indicated they connected with him on a dating site.
25:59 Speaker 01 We got some common ground here.
26:01 Speaker 00 Sounds like it. Now, we know he's eventually going to become a key suspect in the investigation of the missing men, but what first put him on the radar? A connection with two of the missing men based on a dating site? This is what we talk about, you know, all the time, whether you're talking about serial killers or someone who's plotting a one-off murder, you know, this electronic trail that we all leave every day.
26:35 Speaker 01 True.
26:36 Speaker 00 Yours is probably one of the scariest ones of all. I'd hate to, to see the full breadth and width of it.
26:46 Speaker 01 I do that to throw people off.
26:47 Speaker 00 Oh, so you visit certain sites just to?
26:50 Speaker 01 Yes.
26:51 Speaker 00 Throw people off. But, you know, in all seriousness, the question at least comes up to me a lot. I mean, how do people not know that eventually, you know, that kind of connection or that electronic trail, whatever you want to call it, is going to catch up with them? If you're killing people that you met on a dating site, you don't think they're going to go back investigators and, and look at, you know, what these people were doing before they went missing, who they were talking to, what's on their computer?
27:30 Speaker 01 Well, I think some people just don't clue into that. I think people are more aware of it today.
27:35 Speaker 00 Yeah, probably. Over the last 10 years, I'd say so. But we're not talking about 1950 here, right? Or 90s. This was, uh, 2012, 2013. It wasn't the initial stages of the internet. Like, nobody knew, you know?
27:56 Speaker 00 What police could gather, I guess. Thomas Donald Bruce MacArthur was born on October 8th, 1951 in Lindsay, Ontario. He was the second child of Malcolm and Islay MacArthur. Bruce grew up on a farm near Argyle. His mother and father had a good reputation in the community. They were foster parents to troubled children from Toronto who came to their farm to get out of the city.
28:24 Speaker 01 The farm life, man, that will straighten you out.
28:27 Speaker 00 Well, we've talked about it many times. There's gonna be a lot of work to do. Mary Ann McKeecher, a family friend who grew up with Bruce, told the National Post, "There was always kids coming and going. Lots of times, there would be maybe six to 10. I never heard any of those kids ever complain about being there." That is a lot of kids to kind of foster.
28:51 Speaker 01 It is, but it sounds like they were happy while they were there. If they're not complaining about it.
28:58 Speaker 00 Well, I'm taking that to mean they were treated well. According to the Canadian Encyclopedia, Bruce's father was Presbyterian and his mother was Catholic, which caused some division in the home. Bruce often sided with his mother, which made his father angry. Bruce later told a therapist that he believed his father suspected he was gay and tried to suppress this through manual labor. He felt like his dad gave him an unfair share of the farm labor and he resented him for this.
29:31 Speaker 01 You know, you can always tell when a parent gives you more work than somebody else.
29:36 Speaker 00 Than one of your other siblings or treats you differently.
29:39 Speaker 01 Yes.
29:40 Speaker 00 You know, like the, the youngest often gets away with more. The oldest is asked to do more, maybe punished more. That happens in certain families. But, you know, I really want to focus in on this idea that Bruce thought his father suspected he was gay and was trying to suppress it or kind of force it out of him through manual labor.
30:08 Speaker 00 And I'm not so sure there weren't quite a few men back during the timeframe that we would be talking about here, who might have thought like that, that this was more of a choice that they could influence as opposed to the kind of the knowledge that we have today.
30:29 Speaker 01 Yeah, I remember hearing about certain camps like this, you know, that the objective was to work it out of them.
30:39 Speaker 00 Bruce was an average student. According to Ron McKeachern, who attended school with him, he was the teacher's suck. He never got into any trouble. Like, we were in a one-room school, boys. We done shit. He was always sucking up to the teacher. If we got into trouble, he'd run in and squeal on us. He just wasn't like the rest of the boys. I have never heard that term. The teacher suck.
31:07 Speaker 01 Yeah. You never heard that, huh?
31:09 Speaker 00 No, have you?
31:10 Speaker 01 Actually, I have, ever since I've been going up to Canada, you hear.
31:14 Speaker 00 Oh, okay. Well, maybe that's a Canadian type of term. I've never heard it. I mean, that could be taken, you know, a bunch of different ways.
31:23 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
31:24 Speaker 00 But obviously, it's kind of like teacher's pet, maybe, or suck up, I think, is what they're trying to say.
31:32 Speaker 01 Right.
31:33 Speaker 00 For his senior yearbook entry, Bruce said his favorite pastime was a good argument, and his ambition was to be successful.
31:42 Speaker 01 Well, you like a good argument, as long as you win.
31:45 Speaker 00 Well, I win most of them, but I, I do like a good argument every now and then. Now, I don't like to start them, but if someone starts one with me, I have no, you know, qualms about jumping in and actually kind of relish in the back and forth.
32:03 Speaker 01 Yeah, you're a very confident arguer.
32:07 Speaker 00 Orator.
32:08 Speaker 01 Orator.
32:09 Speaker 00 He wrote about his future, "Your guess is as good as mine." So, you know, what's your ambition? To be successful. Well, who doesn't want to be successful? How are you going to do that? I don't know.
32:20 Speaker 01 Yeah.
32:21 Speaker 00 After high school graduation, Bruce completed a two-year business course at college in Barrie, Ontario. When he was 23, he married Janice Campbell, who attended the same high school. They had a son named Todd and a daughter named Melanie. Bruce and Janice moved away from Lindsay after graduation, but they went back to visit Bruce's parents often. And both of Bruce's parents died relatively young. His mother died of cancer in 1978. She was only 49. His father died of a brain tumor in 1981. He was only 59.
33:00 Speaker 01 That is young.
33:01 Speaker 00 Bruce started working as a buyer's assistant for Eaton's department store in downtown Toronto. This position led to a job as a traveling salesman for McGregor Hosiery.
33:13 Speaker 01 Remember when George's dad was trying to get into, was it hosiery?
33:19 Speaker 00 He developed the man's ear.
33:21 Speaker 01 The man's ear, yeah.
33:22 Speaker 00 In 1986, Bruce and Janice purchased a house in Oshawa. Bruce and the family moved to Oshawa, Ontario, and he later became a merchandising representative for Stansfield Limited, a clothing manufacturer. So Bruce appeared to be a pretty normal family man, right? He kept a steady job. He was active in his local Presbyterian church, but there were problems at home.
33:51 Speaker 01 Doing well everywhere but at home.
33:53 Speaker 00 It sounds like it. I mean, you know, he jumped from job to job some, but don't we all? And I think a lot of the problems that he had at home were due to the fact that he came out to Janice in the early 1990s and admitted that he had been with men during their marriage.
34:15 Speaker 01 It'd be a tough conversation to have.
34:17 Speaker 00 It would be. I mean, anytime, I think as a spouse, you're admitting infidelity. That's going to be a tough conversation. But this is a different dynamic. You know, this is a man admitting to his wife, not only that he's had affairs, but these affairs were with other men. In the late 1990s, Bruce began a relationship with the married man that would last four years. Bruce and Janice separated in 1997 and he moved to Toronto in 1998. In 1999, Bruce saw a psychiatrist as a result of difficulties coping with the breakup of his
35:00 Speaker 00 marriage and his first gay relationship. He also declared bankruptcy that year. Bruce experienced financial difficulties when he lost his job and had to pay for his son's legal expenses. Then it was reported that as a teen, his son Todd got into trouble for making obscene phone calls to women. He didn't know. He eventually received dozens of convictions for harassment in making indecent phone calls. In 2014, Todd was sentenced to 14 months in jail after he confessed to making multiple obscene phone calls to a stranger at her workplace.
35:40 Speaker 00 He was already on probation for two similar charges when he committed the offense. His lawyer told the court, he was diagnosed with telephone scatologia.
35:53 Speaker 01 Scatologia.
35:55 Speaker 00 And had been treated for this illness for at least a decade.
35:58 Speaker 01 I think it'd be hard to do those type of calls with caller ID and.
36:04 Speaker 00 Yeah, we're not talking the 1980s here, 1970s.
36:08 Speaker 01 Yeah.
36:08 Speaker 00 This is 2014.
36:10 Speaker 01 Kind of risky making calls like that today.
36:13 Speaker 00 Well, and it sounds like he knew it was risky. He had already been convicted. He was on probation for two similar charges. It was almost like he had the compulsion though, and he couldn't stop. I've never heard of telephone scatologia. I don't even know if I'm saying it correctly. Usually scat refers to feces. So I'm not really sure the origin of that word, but.
36:40 Speaker 01 Look at you breaking down the word.
36:43 Speaker 00 What do they call that? The. Etymology, I don't know what the right word is, but.
36:48 Speaker 01 I think it's funny that you're asking me.
36:50 Speaker 00 It is. I'm sure I got it wrong anyway. Todd's condition was linked to depression and could be associated with his first sexual experience. He said he had an explicit conversation on the phone with an older woman when he was just 11 or 12 years old. And I don't think you can downplay what experiencing adult type behavior at such a young age can do to somebody. It's kind of, it's kind of what I worry about today with the, the ease of access with, you know, too pornography on the internet.
37:31 Speaker 00 I don't know, you know, how many kids are seeing things they shouldn't be seeing at the age that they are.
37:39 Speaker 01 Too many for sure.
37:40 Speaker 00 I'm sure that it is. And what is it going to do to them down the line? Todd was warned that if he offended again, he would go to federal prison. In the fall of 2017, he was charged with new counts of indecent telecommunications, criminal harassment and breach of probation. He was released on bail in order to stay with his father in Toronto. So I said, you know, Bruce is having financial issues. He's having to pay for, you know, some of his son's legal fees. Sounds to me like some of these legal fees could have been quite extensive for the amount of trouble that he was getting into. At Todd sentencing hearing in 2014, the Crown noted
38:24 Speaker 00 that Todd had extremely supportive parents and came from a quote, "healthy middle-class family." And I'm sure they were seen as a, you know, kind of a normal, middle-class family. Does seem strange though, that Todd, who's in all this trouble, is released to his dad's custody to live with his dad, who is later going to be found to be a serial killer.
38:51 Speaker 01 It is strange.
38:52 Speaker 00 In December 2000, MacArthur and his wife sold their house in Oshawa. According to the National Post, it's not clear whether Bruce and Janice were ever legally divorced. It seems like they maintained a pretty positive relationship. After the separation, Bruce was referenced in her parents' obituaries in 2003 and 2007. And Janice attended his sister's anniversary party in 2017.
39:21 Speaker 01 Well, it sounds like they probably had a decent relationship then.
39:25 Speaker 00 And a lot of people do. You know, they realize that they can't make it work, a marriage. They don't want to live together, but it doesn't mean that they, you know, at some level still don't love each other. Or at the very least can be civil and, you know, have a, a good relationship for the sake of their children or just in general. Bruce's Toronto apartment had three bedrooms. He had a roommate and he saved a room for Todd. A friend of Todd's once came to visit while Bruce was away and found disturbing photos in the bathroom attached to Bruce's room.
40:07 Speaker 00 This friend told the Toronto Star, there was a lot of developed photos of naked men with erections.
40:15 Speaker 01 It was probably shocking to find.
40:16 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, I don't know how old this, this guy was. But there's also, you know, the sense that, well, this is my buddy's dad. He's divorced. He may not have had any idea, I don't think, probably didn't, that Bruce was gay. So yeah, I think could have been a little shocking. Todd told him these were men his father knew. When the photos were mentioned at breakfast, Bruce laughed it off. Okay, so it doesn't sound like it was that awkward of a conversation for him.
40:51 Speaker 01 Just kind of got past it.
40:53 Speaker 00 Hey, you're in my house, man. You want to use my bathroom? You're going to see pictures of men's erections.
41:00 Speaker 01 It's just going to happen.
41:01 Speaker 00 That's just part of the deal. But is that any different, Gibbs, than, you know, you go to use like your, your buddy's bathroom? And his dad's got a Playboy in there.
41:14 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah, that.
41:17 Speaker 01 Strange.
41:18 Speaker 00 No, now, when you're 10, it's confusing.
41:22 Speaker 01 Yeah.
41:22 Speaker 00 But when you're an adult and you say, okay, he's got a Playboy in there. I'm sure it's just for the articles, but whatever.
41:28 Speaker 01 I mean, I've used this bathroom here downstairs and there's things in there that I'm really not sure, but I don't say anything because you know, it's your bathroom. What you do in your bathroom is between you and that bathroom.
41:41 Speaker 00 Yeah. What's, what happens in the bathroom stays in the bathroom.
41:44 Speaker 01 Exactly.
41:46 Speaker 00 Bruce frequented bars in Toronto's gay village. Some men who dated MacArthur said he had normal sexual interests, but others said he enjoyed BDSM and rough sex. And I think a lot of, I don't know how many, a lot, I think, obviously there are quite a few people who are into this kind of BDSM lifestyle. I don't understand at all because it's not something that I've ever been into. You know, I don't really think I would enjoy like a, like one of those ball gags in my mouth or, you know, anything like that, or being zipped up in a leather hood,
42:27 Speaker 00 or I'm, I'm trying to think of things I've seen in movies that might be, or being whipped. I don't, I don't want to be hurt in any way.
42:35 Speaker 01 Just the fact that you said ball gag in your mouth, that's.
42:39 Speaker 00 I guess I'm kind of thinking pulp fiction is about the extent of my knowledge.
42:44 Speaker 01 Oh, man. I hope that when you play this back later, your wife hears that. I just want her to hear that.
42:50 Speaker 00 Well, she'll hear me say, I don't know anything about it. Some people who knew him or had dated him thought he was obsessive and controlling, but his friends said they saw no signs of anger issues or aggression. But does that surprise you at all?
43:07 Speaker 01 No.
43:07 Speaker 00 I mean, how many times have we talked about serial killers who, to their friends and family, were the absolute, complete opposite of how they were with, you know, their victims, or really what their true nature was. They were playing a part to all these other people, showing them the good side.
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44:49 Speaker 00 According to Robert James, who got to know Bruce in the gay village, Bruce often expressed sadness over the fact that his son didn't accept his sexuality.
45:00 Speaker 01 Well, I can see how some sons could struggle with that.
45:02 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah, I could see it. You know, if you thought that, you know, your dad was this family man, and then at some point you found out that he was gay. I'm sure some people in that situation would struggle with it. But it sounds like, at least from what, you know, Bruce was telling people, that his son never really fully accepted it. I can understand, you know, it being shocking when you first found out, but over the years, it sounds like he just never really accepted it. Eventually, Bruce started seeing a psychiatrist and was prescribed Prozac.
45:44 Speaker 00 He also took a muscle relaxer that he said he used as a sex aid. And it seems like that would have the opposite effect of being a sex aid.
45:55 Speaker 01 Maybe there were just some muscles that he needed to relax.
45:58 Speaker 00 Yeah, I'm kind of. Latching on to that now, as you say it. In 2003, Bruce started a landscaping business called Artistic Design. He developed a large client base, mostly consisting of older wealthy women. Bruce couldn't store his equipment in his apartment, so he made a deal with a few of his clients. He agreed to work for free in exchange for storage space. Bruce occasionally hired workers. Some of them were South Asian or Middle Eastern men. Bruce first got into legal trouble on October 31st, 2001, when he assaulted a man with a metal pipe outside the victim's home.
46:41 Speaker 00 36-year-old Mark Henderson was walking home when he was attacked. He was unlocking his apartment door and felt a blow to the head. He saw the attacker lift the pipe over his head and felt multiple blows.
46:56 Speaker 01 Well, metal pipe will definitely do some damage.
47:00 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, to me, that's a very scary situation. You're attacked from behind while you're trying to open your door. Henderson told local news outlet W5, "Every muscle in his face was clenched. He was full of rage." Henderson was able to get into his apartment and call emergency services, and the attacker fled. MacArthur turned himself in that afternoon. The police learned that he met the victim through a chat line, and they had sex twice. Bruce maintained that he blacked out before the assault and didn't know why he did it.
47:39 Speaker 00 According to court documents, MacArthur admitted to consuming amyl nitrate, known colloquially as "poppers" on that evening.
47:50 Speaker 01 Some "poppers."
47:51 Speaker 00 Well, I don't know that I ever did "poppers," can't remember doing "poppers," but maybe I did them and don't remember it, because apparently he blacked out. Or at least he said he did. But how strange is it, you know, that he turned himself in?
48:06 Speaker 01 Well, maybe he thought.
48:07 Speaker 00 It was just a matter of time anyway?
48:09 Speaker 01 He was trying to just hedge it off.
48:11 Speaker 00 I don't know. Maybe he realized what he had done and he felt sorry, but that would be kind of an anomaly, right? From what we're used to.
48:20 Speaker 01 Right.
48:21 Speaker 00 On January 29th, 2003, MacArthur pleaded guilty to one count of assault, causing bodily harm and assault with a weapon. On March 19th, 2003, Dr. Marie France Dion wrote a psychological report on MacArthur at his lawyer's request to find out if a mental health issue could have led to the assault. Per the CBC, the psychiatrist found no sign of mental health problems that could have contributed to the incident and offered no explanation for the assault. There was a low risk. MacArthur would reoffend and he showed absolutely no signs of psychopathy.
49:04 Speaker 01 Okay.
49:05 Speaker 00 I think there's very little doubt that that person was wrong on both accounts. According to CTV News, the assessment also stated, "His profile portrays an exaggerated striving to be liked, as well as a rigid, intense compliance to social conventions. Tendencies to want to be seen as self-effacing and non-assertive are also apparent. On the surface, he expresses a strong sense of duty to obey and follow others as if their expectations of him must not go unmet."
49:42 Speaker 01 I feel about that description.
49:44 Speaker 00 To be honest with you, it made me think of you. I feel like for as long as I've known you, you've always strived to be liked and to really meet the expectations of the people around you.
50:00 Speaker 01 Been a tough go.
50:02 Speaker 00 What? To meet, to be liked and to meet all these expectations?
50:05 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
50:06 Speaker 00 No, I mean, I'm being pretty serious, you know, a strong sense of duty. I feel like, you know, and most of this comes from us working together.
50:15 Speaker 01 Sure.
50:15 Speaker 00 But you always had that. Now, I'm not saying you're a serial killer or anything like that. On April 11, 2003, MacArthur was sentenced to two years of probation, a six-month curfew and a 10-year weapons prohibition. He was forbidden to possess the muscle relaxer, Amal nitrate, and was barred from the gay village for the period of his probation. He was also ordered to take anger management counseling and submit his DNA to a database. So he only got probation, but there was a lot of stuff that kind of went with it. Right? A six-month curfew, 10-year weapons ban.
50:58 Speaker 01 It's a long time.
51:00 Speaker 00 He's not allowed to own the, you know, this muscle relaxer. And for the whole two years, he's barred from the gay village.
51:09 Speaker 01 And he's got to take anger management.
51:11 Speaker 00 And submit his DNA to a database. So that's a lot that goes with it, but you're not going to actually spend time incarcerated or any more time than he might have.
51:21 Speaker 01 I don't like when you gotta take those courses, like anger management.
51:26 Speaker 00 Remedial driving, any of those types.
51:29 Speaker 01 All that stuff, yeah.
51:31 Speaker 00 The Crown in defense entered a joint submission for a conditional sentence. The Crown believed it wouldn't be in society's interest or Mr. MacArthur's interest to have him go into jail at this point in time. Now, obviously, Gibbs, they're going to look back on that as a, as a mistake, but it's kind of hard to, to know at that point that this guy is or is going to become a serial killer.
52:03 Speaker 01 True.
52:04 Speaker 00 The Toronto Star quoted MacArthur at his sentencing hearing, "My life's been kind of a mess in the last year and a half. Knowing what's going to happen and what's happened to me, I'd like to apologize to the victim. I wouldn't know what to say other than I'm sorry for all the pain and anger I've caused him." So I don't know, I get the feeling that, you know, maybe he's saying this stuff for the benefit of the court, you know, to benefit him. But they're also. Unlike many serial killers, seems to be something different about Bruce MacArthur. He voluntarily turned himself in. Now, I know he didn't kill this guy, but he's apologizing.
52:49 Speaker 00 I mean, how many times we talk about people saying the F word to the victims and flipping them off?
52:54 Speaker 01 True.
52:55 Speaker 00 And doing all these things. This is not this guy.
52:58 Speaker 01 It's almost like he has a level of compassion.
53:01 Speaker 00 Or he feels bad.
53:03 Speaker 01 Or he feels bad.
53:04 Speaker 00 Or he's putting on an act, but he didn't have to turn himself in. That, that part's kind of still throwing me. After his probation ended, MacArthur resumed frequenting bars in the gay village. He made accounts on dating sites. He preferred submissive men and wrote that he likes to push a guy's limits. Okay, that's a pretty broad statement and one that quite frankly, might scare a lot of people, should scare a lot of people. So now let's focus on MacArthur's interview with the police on November 11th, 2013.
53:44 Speaker 00 Right? This is back to him being linked with two people through a dating site. MacArthur explained that he knew Skanda Navaratinam from a group he socialized with at a Toronto bar called Black Eagle. He denied having a sexual relationship with Skanda. However, sources report that MacArthur met Skanda in 1999 and that they had a romantic, but non-monogamous relationship in the early 2000s. Skanda worked for MacArthur's landscaping business at one point. The two continued seeing each other over the years.
54:25 Speaker 00 Another friend of Skanda's met MacArthur in 2008 or 2009. This friend wasn't surprised. He was seeing MacArthur because Skanda liked older men. The two were Facebook friends. MacArthur was active on social media. He shared recipe videos, cat pictures, and posted photos of his children and grandchildren, as well as photos of him working as a mall Santa. I mentioned that, right? He worked as a mall Santa.
54:56 Speaker 01 Yeah. Would you ever do that?
54:59 Speaker 00 Work as a mall Santa or post any pictures to Facebook? Cause the answer is the same to both. It's no.
55:06 Speaker 01 No and no.
55:08 Speaker 00 No, but again, I'm getting such a different vibe from this guy than I think we have gotten from a lot of serial killers. Yes, they want to blend in. They don't want to stand out. But how many of them are sharing recipe videos and cat pictures on Facebook? I don't know how many. MacArthur admitted to knowing Cayenne. Since 2003, he did landscaping for Cayenne, and they had a sexual relationship, which he said he broke off. MacArthur was not considered a suspect at this time. So, you know, he went through the interview process. He must
55:49 Speaker 00 have done pretty well in explaining, you know, yes, I did know these people. I had sexual relationships with these people, but I don't know what happened to them. The task force Project Houston shut down in April 2014 due to a lack of criminal evidence. On June 3, 2014, MacArthur was granted a record suspension from the Parole Board of Canada in connection with his 2003 conviction. This meant his record was essentially expunged. But just a little over a year later, another man went missing. On August 15, 2015, 50-year-old
56:30 Speaker 00 Sarush Mamudi was last seen sleeping in his apartment on Markham Road in Scarborough, Ontario. He didn't show up to work later that day. Investigators believe he was killed on or about this day. Mamudi was described by friends as a jokester. He enjoyed camping and soccer. He moved to Canada as a refugee. When he was 20 years old, he didn't have any family until he met his wife. He worked at an auto parts factory until 2008, then started working as a taxi driver. He later moved to the Toronto area to be closer to his wife's family. Sarush's wife reported him missing on August 22.
57:14 Speaker 00 And I, and I was looking at this timeline and I, I found it a little bit strange because it was seven days since he was last seen before his wife reported him missing. Now, we talked about, you know, some other people who didn't have family.
57:30 Speaker 01 You can make that work out. You can make sense of that because they don't have anybody dependent on them every day.
57:38 Speaker 00 And less people to notice that they're missing.
57:41 Speaker 01 Yeah.
57:42 Speaker 00 But you would think if, if you got a wife and you're seeing her on a regular basis, that maybe the report would come sooner. Maybe there's something to it that wasn't in the reporting, but.
57:54 Speaker 01 Well, yeah, maybe there's something we just don't know.
57:57 Speaker 00 Yeah. In August 2015, the family of 37 year old Krishna Kumar Kannagaratna spoke to him over the phone for the last time. Krishna came to Canada in 2010, hoping for a bright future. He arrived with 491 other Sri Lankans fleeing a civil war. He lost his youngest brother during an armed conflict in 2007. He worked odd jobs in Toronto and sent money home to his family. He was said to be the responsible one of all his siblings. In 2013, Krishna told a friend that his application for refugee status and his subsequent
58:40 Speaker 00 appeal were rejected. He remained in Canada and over the next couple of years, he called his mother every day, but those calls stopped in August 2015. So, you know, his family was worried, but they didn't report him missing because they thought he was in hiding and would be sent back to Sri Lanka if he were found. So that's a, that's a different scenario altogether.
59:05 Speaker 01 It is. It really is.
59:07 Speaker 00 They're receiving regular calls. The calls stop. They're worried, but they don't want to report him missing. Because they would have known that, you know, his request for refugee status had been rejected, his appeal had been rejected, and they didn't want to put him on the radar because he's, they're just gonna send him home. And I'm sure they're not thinking the worst at that point, even though they're worried.
59:37 Speaker 01 They have to be worried.
59:38 Speaker 00 They're worried, but they also, you know, like they said, thought, well, maybe he was just in hiding. The police believe he was murdered between September 15th and January 2016. In December 2017, his family posted on Facebook that they were looking for him. The police saw this post and investigators said they had evidence linking Karushna to Toronto up to 2014. On April 22nd, 2016, 47-year-old Dean Lissowick was last seen after he was discharged from the extreme weather program at the Scott Mission on Spadina Avenue
1:00:21 Speaker 00 in Toronto. Authorities believe Dean was murdered on or about April 23rd. He was never reported missing. And Dean had a difficult life. He experienced mental health problems that led him to living in the streets, and he stopped keeping in touch with his parents. He occasionally sent his mother cards, but she died in 2011. So, you know, I think here again, we're talking about a person in Dean Lissowick who didn't keep in touch with any of his family. So who was going to miss him to the point where they would report him missing?
1:01:03 Speaker 01 There's the problem.
1:01:03 Speaker 00 Yeah. And it's probably why he was never reported missing. Dean regularly stayed in Toronto shelters and was a fixture in the gay village. He did sex work and was known for sticking up for others. His acquaintance, Michelle George, told the CBC, if he saw someone being harassed or something- Like that. He was always the first one to come to the rescue. He was very street savvy. So it just baffled me that he of all people would be a victim. Dean had a daughter, but never met her. His cousin Julie Pirro said he had plans and goals and wanted to get his life together. So he could buy his daughter a bike.
1:01:47 Speaker 00 Bruce MacArthur had another brush with law enforcement on June 20th, 2016. That day, he asked a man he'd known for several years to meet him in his van in a parking lot. The man got into the back of the van and MacArthur asked him to lie down on top of a fur coat. He attempted to strangle the man, but the guy escaped and called emergency services.
1:02:13 Speaker 01 He's known this guy for several years and now he decides he wants to strangle him?
1:02:18 Speaker 00 Hey, you, you kind of wonder what was going through his mind? Was it a situation that we've seen with other serial killers where, you know, it builds up, it builds up to the point where, you know, they need that release? And the release is killing.
1:02:36 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:02:37 Speaker 00 And this is the person he singled out? I, I don't know.
1:02:42 Speaker 01 It's like working with somebody for so many years, you know, like eight years and, you know, as you're going up the steps from their studio, you decide at that moment, this is the time.
1:02:52 Speaker 00 Uh huh. But then you realize that that person is armed at all times and you think better of it and you just leave.
1:02:59 Speaker 01 And you say another day.
1:03:00 Speaker 00 Another day. But it did seem strange. What also was strange was that similar to the 2001 incident, MacArthur went to the police station on his own, was arrested and gave a statement.
1:03:14 Speaker 01 It's really weird.
1:03:15 Speaker 00 Again, it's almost like he does these things and then he feels bad about doing them? Or he knows he's gonna get caught because he knew this guy. Because in his statement, he said, well, this is all just a misunderstanding. And he was released without charges because authorities believed his statement was credible. So, I mean, I think with this one, and maybe with the, the other one too, because he knew that person.
1:03:42 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:03:43 Speaker 00 I don't know if the person would have known it was him. That wasn't clear in the research, but this guy I think definitely would have known and was going to tell the police most likely, hey, this guy tried to kill me or strangle me.
1:03:57 Speaker 01 So he thought, I'll hedge it off.
1:03:58 Speaker 00 Yeah, I get the jump on it and it it worked out because he gave, you know, some story and the police believed them. They did a background check on him, but because his earlier conviction was expunged, nothing came up. And I think that's the problem with that way of doing things. Now, I understand if, you know, you do stuff as a juvenile.
1:04:20 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:04:21 Speaker 00 And that record gets expunged at a certain point. An officer later faced professional misconduct charges in connection with this incident. And they didn't really expand on that, but I'm assuming, you know, that's going to be after it comes out that, you know, Bruce MacArthur is a serial killer.
1:04:45 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:04:45 Speaker 00 And he did try to strangle this guy, but the police took his word, but we don't have all the details, but I'm assuming it was something around that. Like they didn't do the proper due diligence or something along those lines. Now, if it's not found out that he's a serial killer, this guy never gets in trouble. But somebody's got to face the music.
1:05:09 Speaker 01 Of course.
1:05:10 Speaker 00 Once all of that comes in. In part two of the Bruce MacArthur episodes, we'll cover the final disappearances in the gay village, how MacArthur was finally caught and his later court proceedings. But, you know, as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, here's a guy who was in trouble with the law, you know, multiple times, got probation, it was expunged, that record was expunged, talked his way out of a second incident, which sounded pretty serious. He tried to strangle a man in his van on top of a fur coat. Not sure
1:05:51 Speaker 00 what purpose the fur coats served, but maybe it was meant to be like a makeshift bed.
1:05:57 Speaker 01 Maybe, yeah.
1:05:59 Speaker 00 But I'm all over the place with this MacArthur guy.
1:06:02 Speaker 01 I just wonder what would be different if he didn't turn himself in those few times.
1:06:09 Speaker 00 I don't think anything other than maybe he would have killed more people.
1:06:13 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:06:14 Speaker 00 You know, here's a guy who got married, either knew he was gay or realized he was gay. At, at some point, we don't, I, we don't know exactly when. My assumption is when he said that his father suspected that he was gay, that Bruce MacArthur knew from an early age that he was gay, but got married to a woman for whatever reason. Maybe it was to hide his sexuality. Men did that.
1:06:44 Speaker 01 Surely did.
1:06:45 Speaker 00 He had kids. So he's having, you know, these relationships with men, but multiple times feels as though he needs to attack men that he knows. And we've already said it, but some of his victims he knew and he knew quite well.
1:07:08 Speaker 01 Yeah, weird.
1:07:10 Speaker 00 And we'll get more into all of it in episode two, but you know, obviously we know he's a bad guy. He did terrible things. He killed, you know, a large number of people, but he's also kind of a strange guy to break down. You know, this, this turning yourself in thing is kind of foreign.
1:07:32 Speaker 01 It is with these serial killers.
1:07:34 Speaker 00 With serial killers. It's not that it never happens. It's just not something we see very often. And then it was almost like he may have had some remorse or that was an act that he put on, but and he, he goes to see a psychiatrist, right? And he's kind of pouring out his feelings. Now he's not saying he's killing people, obviously, but you're getting some insight into, you know, the issues that he had with his dad. There's no doubt that he loved his mom, hated his dad, had issues with his dad.
1:08:12 Speaker 00 How much of that led to him becoming a serial killer? He had this very strange, inappropriate sexual experience with an older woman when he was like 10 or 11 years old. And what did that do to his psyche? It's all stuff that we're gonna have to
1:08:32 Speaker 01 Break down?
1:08:32 Speaker 00 Break down. But more to come next week in the second and final part on Bruce MacArthur. We got some voicemails. You want to check those out? Let's hear them.
1:08:43 Speaker 02 Hello, guys. It's Carrie calling from Grand Junction. I sent you some Enstrom's toffee last week and you've probably gotten it by now. Hopefully you've eaten it because I'm going to tell you the thing that makes it so special. And so like a few years ago, the Enstrom's toffee people had decided to fully automate their production. And so they had this like assembly line thing where they would shoot out the toffee and then another machine would like layer the chocolate on top of it. And then that year was a catastrophe because none of the chocolate stuck to the toffee. It all peeled off and like, so everybody had a box of like toffee and chocolate shards.
1:09:26 Speaker 02 And people were very dissatisfied because usually the chocolate sticks, as you may have noticed. So they looked into it. They did a forensic investigation and they figured out that the thing that creates fingerprints is also the magic in Enstrom's toffee. Finger oil is necessary to keep the chocolate adhered to the toffee. So they've unautomated the system and now they have humans patting the toffee with their bare hands to flatten it out before the chocolate is applied so that the chocolate will stick. So again, I hope you've eaten it already. But regardless of whose fingers have touched it, it's delicious. Happy holidays, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.
1:10:08 Speaker 00 So I said last week, when I mentioned it, I thought that's who it was. I thought it was Carrie, but I didn't want to say, because if I was wrong, I'd have felt bad. It actually was very good. Um, I, I didn't give you any. I actually kept it for myself.
1:10:24 Speaker 01 Cause you liked it.
1:10:25 Speaker 00 I did. I ate both of the milk chocolate and my wife ate both of the dark chocolate bars.
1:10:30 Speaker 01 So it was coffee chocolate?
1:10:31 Speaker 00 No, it was toffee, toffee.
1:10:33 Speaker 01 Oh, toffee.
1:10:34 Speaker 00 It was chocolate covered toffee.
1:10:36 Speaker 01 Oh, I get you.
1:10:37 Speaker 00 Really good.
1:10:38 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:10:39 Speaker 00 Uh, I thought she was going to have like some type of rat poop story that was going to make me.
1:10:44 Speaker 01 Like, why did I?
1:10:45 Speaker 00 Sorry that I ate the, the toffee.
1:10:48 Speaker 01 Why didn't I give it to Gibby?
1:10:49 Speaker 00 No, it was, it was very good.
1:10:50 Speaker 01 And you don't know whose fingers touched it though.
1:10:53 Speaker 00 But like she said, regardless of whose fingers touched it, it's very good chocolate.
1:10:59 Speaker 01 Wait till I find a picture to show you who touched it.
1:11:01 Speaker 02 Hi, this is Ashley. I've called a couple of times. I'm over in Batavia, but I just finished your Patrick Purry episode from like 2019 and someone left a voicemail with a turkey gobble. And I'm so glad that I'm alone in the cat shelter I work at because the laugh I let out would have probably terrified my entire staff of coworkers. That was the best thing I've heard ever. And she was so nonchalant about it. It just went straight into just continue talking. Anyways, keep your head on a swivel.
1:11:37 Speaker 00 So I do remember that. It was funny. I thought when she started that voicemail, she was going to say that I made some comment about how 2020 was going to be a great year.
1:11:47 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:11:47 Speaker 00 Cause I, I know I said that on Patreon.
1:11:49 Speaker 01 I know.
1:11:50 Speaker 00 And people still bring it up. And obviously I couldn't have known that 2020 was going to be, uh, the year of COVID.
1:11:57 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:11:57 Speaker 00 And change everything.
1:11:59 Speaker 01 Tough prediction.
1:12:00 Speaker 00 That's why I make no more predictions about how the next year's gonna go. Cause you just don't know.
1:12:06 Speaker 01 You don't. That's true.
1:12:07 Speaker 00 But thanks for the voicemails. We appreciate them.
1:12:09 Speaker 01 We do.
1:12:10 Speaker 00 And that's it, buddy, for another episode of True Crime All The Time. So for Mike.
1:12:14 Speaker 01 And Gibby.
1:12:15 Speaker 00 Stay safe and keep your own time ticking. The End of the End of the End of the End of the End
1:12:41 Speaker 00 of the End of the
1:12:49 Speaker 00 End of
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