Pod Insights True Crime All The Time Bruce McArthur Part 2 About this episode Bruce McArthur is a grandfather who worked as a landscaper and a mall Santa in the off-season. For nearly eight years, McArthur lived a secret life as a serial killer, primarily targeting men in The Gay Village, an LGBTQ+-friendly area of Toronto.
Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the Canadian serial killer Bruce McArthur. In part two of the Bruce McArthur episodes, we’ll cover the final disappearances in the Gay Village, how McArthur was finally caught, and his later court proceedings. Rumors about the missing men and a possible serial killer in Toronto’s Gay Village started in 2010. McArthur had a habit of targeting South Asian or Middle Eastern men who struggled with their sexuality. He knew many of his victims, which meant there was a connection to him; the police just had to put all of the pieces of the puzzle together.
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1:50 Speaker 00 Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode 415 of the True Crime All the Time Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?
2:00 Speaker 01 Hey, I'm doing good. How about you?
2:01 Speaker 00 I'm doing great. You and I just finished up our weekly Patreon thing that we put out every week. And it's kind of shocking that we are as close to Christmas as we are, kind of snuck up.
2:17 Speaker 01 Yep.
2:17 Speaker 00 Went very quickly.
2:19 Speaker 01 Did.
2:19 Speaker 00 So this is officially our last episode of the year.
2:24 Speaker 01 Yeah, gotta wait till next year to hear more.
2:26 Speaker 00 Yeah, we're taking the, the last weekend of the year off, which we, we normally do somewhere around Christmas. Just to, you know, recharge the batteries and get ready for a, a, a new year.
2:39 Speaker 01 We do.
2:40 Speaker 00 Which I'm excited for.
2:41 Speaker 01 And always have that recovery period after the wrestling match of the Festivus.
2:45 Speaker 00 Yes. Yeah. Um, you're black and blue.
2:49 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:50 Speaker 00 Your family goes at it pretty hard.
2:52 Speaker 01 We, we, uh, get all those.
2:56 Speaker 00 Pent up, uh, uh, all, all the, the year's worth of anger.
3:00 Speaker 01 That's right.
3:01 Speaker 00 Out on each other.
3:02 Speaker 01 Yeah.
3:03 Speaker 00 Well, let's go ahead and do our Patreon shout outs. We had Mohammed Sheik.
3:07 Speaker 01 Hey Mohammed.
3:08 Speaker 00 Katie McCormick.
3:09 Speaker 01 Hey Katie from the McCormick, uh, spice.
3:14 Speaker 00 Family. Savannah McCoy.
3:17 Speaker 01 Hey Savannah, stay away from the, uh, um, Hatfields.
3:22 Speaker 00 Uh, Mike Oxmal.
3:23 Speaker 01 Hey Oxmal.
3:24 Speaker 00 Tracy Robbins.
3:25 Speaker 01 There's Tracy.
3:26 Speaker 00 Leah Levine.
3:28 Speaker 01 Levine. I like that.
3:30 Speaker 00 Charlie Ward.
3:31 Speaker 01 Hey Charlie.
3:32 Speaker 00 Who won a Heisman back in the, uh, eighties or nineties.
3:37 Speaker 01 I was thinking that and then played for the Raiders or something, right?
3:40 Speaker 00 I don't know about that. He played basketball for the Knicks.
3:42 Speaker 01 Did he really?
3:43 Speaker 00 Yeah, he was actually one of Heisman as a quarterback, but ended up playing professional basketball.
3:47 Speaker 01 He's like me. He's one of those guys that did, uh, lettered in all.
3:51 Speaker 00 Multi talented. Yeah. Olivia.
3:54 Speaker 01 What's going on Olivia?
3:55 Speaker 00 Allison Hardwick.
3:57 Speaker 01 Hey Allison.
3:58 Speaker 00 And last but not least, Holly Lewis.
4:00 Speaker 01 Hey, thanks Holly.
4:01 Speaker 00 In the news.
4:02 Speaker 01 Oh, nice. There's that. And if you're gonna go that, or if you're gonna go like Clark, you know, Lewis.
4:07 Speaker 00 Lewis and Clark. And then if we go back into the vault.
4:12 Speaker 00 This week, we selected Rosalyn Rainey.
4:14 Speaker 01 Hey, thanks, Rosalyn.
4:15 Speaker 00 Yeah, I appreciate the new Patreon support, the continued support. We also had a great PayPal donation from Ann Kelly.
4:22 Speaker 01 Well, thanks, Ann.
4:23 Speaker 00 So Gibbs, right now, we have a brand new episode out on True Crime All the Time Unsolved, where we're actually headed to Norway.
4:32 Speaker 01 We are.
4:32 Speaker 00 To talk about an unidentified woman who has become known as the Eisdal Woman. In 1970, the burned remains of a woman were found in a remote area of Norway's Eisdalen Valley. And over 50 years later, they still have not identified this woman. And obviously, don't know exactly what happened to her, if somebody did something to her. But we get into all the details.
5:04 Speaker 01 Well, I'm excited. You know, I have a deep love for Norway.
5:08 Speaker 00 I know you do.
5:09 Speaker 01 Ever since sixth grade. So, you know, I'm excited to do this story.
5:14 Speaker 00 Would you like to expand on that? Because it was very cryptic.
5:18 Speaker 01 Oh, well, you know, as, as mentioned on Patreon.
5:22 Speaker 00 Right, which most of these people are not going to have heard.
5:27 Speaker 01 Well, that's true, unless you jump over right now. Um, but, uh, no, in sixth grade, we had to represent a country. And my country was Norway. And so we had like the, you know, field Olympics and we had to do their customary dance, you know, where the, the.
5:50 Speaker 00 Traditional, like outfit of the country. Oh, man, if I had a video of a sixth grade Gibby.
5:57 Speaker 01 Yeah.
5:57 Speaker 00 Dancing to some Norwegian song.
6:00 Speaker 01 With like clogs on it.
6:01 Speaker 00 It would, I could make a fortune.
6:05 Speaker 01 It was good times.
6:06 Speaker 00 All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All The Time?
6:10 Speaker 01 I am ready.
6:11 Speaker 00 We're on to part two and the last part on serial killer Bruce MacArthur. In part one, we covered the police investigation and how MacArthur was first identified in connection with missing men. In part two, we'll cover the final disappearances in the gay village, how MacArthur was finally caught, and his later court proceedings. On April 16, 2017, 44-year-old Saleem Essen was last seen near Yong and Bloor Streets in Toronto. The police believe he was killed on or about this day.
6:50 Speaker 00 And, you know, we said that multiple times about victims in episode one. And I do think it's an interesting statement because it just shows you that, you know, this was a predator who struck and killed immediately, or very quickly.
7:12 Speaker 01 He didn't toy around.
7:13 Speaker 00 No, this was not a person who, you know, took his victims somewhere for days and, and kept them or, you know, anything like that. Essen was reported missing by a friend on April 30. Saleem Essen was born in Istanbul and grew up in Turkey where he graduated from university. His older brothers said he was unhappy as a gay man in Turkey. Saleem spent several years in Australia and moved to Canada in 2013 to marry his boyfriend. Their relationship didn't last, but Saleem stayed in Toronto. And we're also hearing another common theme.
7:58 Speaker 00 You have some men here who were gay, but were living in countries or parts of the world where it was extremely hard, nearly impossible to be an openly gay man.
8:17 Speaker 01 Probably somewhat dangerous too.
8:18 Speaker 00 Very dangerous. And so I think what a lot of these individuals did was, you know, they looked for areas of the world. They looked for countries. They looked for cities where they felt as though they could be themselves. He was described as friendly and curious. He wanted to learn new things and travel. Saleem worked as a cafe manager and enjoyed studying philosophy in his free time. And I know, you know, you study a lot of philosophy.
8:52 Speaker 01 I do.
8:53 Speaker 00 In your free time.
8:54 Speaker 01 Love it. Some people call me the philosopher.
8:57 Speaker 00 Some people call you the BS artist. I don't know how different some of those things are.
9:03 Speaker 01 There's a blurred line.
9:05 Speaker 00 It's a very fine line, right? Saleem was once a client at the St. Stevens Community House in Toronto, which provides classes, counseling, and job placement services for new immigrants. He completed a training program and volunteered peer support. Richard Kycott, who met Saleem through the peer training program, said that at the time of his disappearance, he was confused, afraid, and believed something bad was going to happen to him.
9:35 Speaker 01 It's a terrible feeling to have.
9:39 Speaker 00 Well, it does seem like a worrisome combination, especially, you know, being afraid and feeling as though something bad was going to happen. Okay. Did that just come from nowhere? Or were there some things that had happened that, you know, had instilled that fear in him? Two months later, on June 26, 2017, 49-year-old Andrew Kinsman was last seen in Toronto's Cabbage Town neighborhood. Kinsman was a highly intelligent child chess prodigy, according to the CBC. His sister said he had a gruff demeanor, but he cared about social justice
10:24 Speaker 00 issues and wanted to help others. And I'm going to be honest with you, I have been fascinated with, you know, chess.
10:34 Speaker 00 I know how to play chess. I'm not very good at it. But you know, these people who are considered prodigies. I guess I'm fascinated by any prodigy, but chess in particular. You know, when you think about like a Bobby Fischer.
10:50 Speaker 01 Right.
10:51 Speaker 00 Who, as a kid, was beating like these adults who were considered to be amazing chess players.
11:00 Speaker 01 Right, yeah.
11:01 Speaker 00 It just blows my mind that somebody's, I guess, mind gets to the level where it works that way.
11:11 Speaker 01 Just to think, you know, 64 squares and all these pieces move different directions. And you're always thinking, you know, multiple steps ahead. Just the concentration level.
11:22 Speaker 00 Is there 64 squares?
11:24 Speaker 01 Yeah.
11:24 Speaker 00 I am really shocked that you knew that. Do you play a lot of chess?
11:28 Speaker 01 Yeah, at a high level.
11:29 Speaker 00 Okay. He enjoyed volunteering, baking and camping. He spent decades working with the Toronto HIV AIDS Network and was involved in the city's LGBTQ community. Andrew was the superintendent of his apartment building in Cabbage Town. He had an elderly cat, so his friends were concerned when his cat was left alone for a full day after the annual pride event. And we know how much, you know, people love their animals. We talk about it a lot. Some people love their animals more than than they like some humans, you know?
12:10 Speaker 01 Not a bad thing.
12:11 Speaker 00 But if he was really attached to this cat, you know, it's an elderly cat, it needs taken care of. Okay, to leave the cat alone for a full day, what does that mean to someone who really knows him? And I think, you know, that's what you're looking at in some of the cases, right? That we do, someone does something that's out of the ordinary for them, but what does it mean? Sometimes, you know, friends are concerned immediately, others not so much. But it sounds like to me in this situation, this was a concerning thing.
12:48 Speaker 01 Yeah, it sounds like he had a pretty set routine and he didn't follow it and it caused concern.
12:53 Speaker 00 Yeah, on June 29th, 2017, Andrew's neighbor reported him missing. The police would later say this was critical to their investigation because Andrew was reported missing within 72 hours. They were able to get surveillance video showing Andrew getting into a Dodge caravan outside his apartment building. And we talked about it in episode one, right? A number of people went missing. They weren't reported missing though, for some time due to various circumstances. Well, what does that do to an investigation?
13:33 Speaker 00 Now, obviously the later you get started, after someone is thought to have last been seen, the harder it would be to, you know, gather evidence, track their movements, all of that.
13:47 Speaker 01 Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's definitely going to hamper the process.
13:50 Speaker 00 The police searched Kinsman's home and found the name Bruce written on his calendar on June 26th. A detective cross-referenced the list of vehicles that matched the description with owners named Bruce. There were only five matches and Bruce MacArthur was one of them. The other four men were eliminated because none of their vehicles had chrome sighting like the one in the surveillance video. So again, this is fascinating, kind of old school police work. Right? You've got some surveillance footage of a car.
14:31 Speaker 00 All right, let's start looking at how many cars of that make and model are out there. They find this name Bruce, right? Let's cross-reference the cars with owners with the first name Bruce.
14:47 Speaker 01 Just good detective work.
14:48 Speaker 00 It really is. Now, is it tough? Is it hard? Is it painstaking? I'm sure it is, but that's how a lot of cases are solved.
14:58 Speaker 01 Yeah, you gotta do all that legwork to get to a good spot.
15:02 Speaker 00 What is really sounds like they did in July 2017, Bruce met a man named Sean Cribbin on a dating app. Sean went to MacArthur's apartment for sex. He agreed to BDSM role playing, but MacArthur did not respect his limits or his safe word. According to the Toronto Star, MacArthur cut off Sean's airway with his hand, his genitals, and by sitting on his chest. Sean said, that's the only memory I have from it. Just this overall, I couldn't breathe. I couldn't breathe. I couldn't breathe. Now, I think I said in
15:42 Speaker 00 episode one, I don't have a vast knowledge of the BDSM world. But the one thing I do know is that it often involves a safe word. And, you know, if you don't respect a safe word, okay, somebody is in for a bad time.
16:02 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's a problem. What is, what's your safe word? Is it Bosco still?
16:06 Speaker 00 Yeah, Bosco. Why you would know that is beyond me.
16:11 Speaker 01 I do my research.
16:13 Speaker 00 But, you know, here again, let's think about the position that this person Sean was in. You know, if part of your sexual desires involve this role playing BDSM, you know, are you tied up? I think it often involves that being restrained. You're in a very vulnerable position or situation.
16:43 Speaker 01 Oh, absolutely. You gotta be in a vulnerable situation. And if you're not okay with that, I think your anxiety would be pretty high.
16:52 Speaker 00 Well, I think a lot of people are okay with being in the vulnerable situation. What they're not okay with, or what they wouldn't be okay with is the other person taking advantage of them being in that vulnerable situation.
17:10 Speaker 01 True. Yeah.
17:11 Speaker 00 And doing things. That they're not comfortable with, whether that's something sexual or something, you know, more heinous, like, you know, this guy trying to essentially strangulate Sean. Sean was also drugged with GHB and lost consciousness. He believes he survived because MacArthur's roommate came back unexpectedly. And I can imagine, you know, roommate walks in, it's going to be a kind of a strange sight. You're going to have to explain what's going on unless the roommate knows what you're into.
17:52 Speaker 01 Yeah, I remember the like, the first time I shared that room with you and I came back early from dinner and you were in your diaper outfit.
18:03 Speaker 00 You're really reaching now at this point. Now, if you just had furry costume, okay, maybe, maybe people would have believed you.
18:13 Speaker 01 I couldn't even get that out with a straight face.
18:15 Speaker 00 Sean told the BBC in a different interview, when I came around, I saw him standing, looking at me, he never made any reference to the fact I'd lost 20 minutes. I took it as a bad date. And, you know, for me, I'm taking that to mean that he didn't think MacArthur was trying to kill him at the time. I think later on, when he finds out who this guy is, it's probably pretty easy to see that he got lucky. A detective later contacted him and told him they found an image of him on MacArthur's hard drive. He'd put a hood over my head and duct tape over my eyes.
18:57 Speaker 00 His hand was over a pipe jammed up against my throat and he took a photograph. That happened during the 20 minutes. I mean, that's some real scary stuff.
19:08 Speaker 01 It is, and then you want to know where was that headed?
19:11 Speaker 00 Well, I think it was headed in the worst possible direction. If the roommate doesn't come home, I think MacArthur kills this guy.
19:22 Speaker 01 I agree with you.
19:23 Speaker 00 A GHB dealer identified as Joey told the BBC about visiting MacArthur's apartment to consensually use the drug and have sex with him. He said, "He had some G for both of us. It started to feel real creepy. He was asking me odd questions like, was I close to my family? Do I have brothers and sisters? In hindsight, he was probably seeing if anybody would miss me if I went missing. I told him, "I'm not feeling well, so I'm just going to go." There was no life in his eyes. He looked evil to me.
20:01 Speaker 00 So here's a guy who really got a bad sense of the situation. And probably luckily for him, he did because he was able to, you know, make that decision to get out of there.
20:17 Speaker 01 Which we know many people did not have that option.
20:20 Speaker 00 Yeah, never got to that point. On August 14th, 2017, the police established a task force called Project Prism to investigate the disappearances of Saleem Essen and Andrew Kinsman. On September 6th, the Toronto Police began tracking Bruce MacArthur's movements. On the 8th, the police used MacArthur's name in their request to seal a production order for the service provider, Bell Canada. And a production order, I guess in Canada is just a, an order compelling a person or company to provide records, right? They're trying to get phone records.
21:03 Speaker 00 On the 14th, the police obtained a tracking warrant for two of MacArthur's vehicles. On September 16th, MacArthur sold his maroon Dodge Caravan to Dom's Auto Parts outside Toronto. And I think if you're the police, you have to be looking at that as kind of a telltale sign.
21:26 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah.
21:27 Speaker 00 I mean, could it be that this guy just happened to make the decision that he wanted to sell this Dodge Caravan? Well, sure, it could be, but could it also be that he knew there was most likely evidence in it and he just wanted to get rid of it? He wanted to end his connection with it.
21:46 Speaker 01 Very possible.
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24:01 Speaker 00 You can connect to multiple devices and switch seamlessly without hassle. Honestly, they've just become part of my daily routine. Go to buy raycon.com slash TCAT open to get up to 50% off site wide during Raycon's Black Friday sales. Thanks to Raycon for sponsoring. On October 3rd, investigators went to Dom's Auto Parts looking for the Dodge auto shop owner, Dominic Vettier, confirmed Bruce sold the car to him in September. The vehicle had 243,000 kilometers on it and the shop bought it for $125.
24:41 Speaker 01 Wow.
24:42 Speaker 00 When the police showed up on October 3rd, they asked for surveillance footage and towed the vehicle. Now, the shop workers said they never saw any blood in the vehicle, but the police still needed to do a detailed forensic investigation.
24:57 Speaker 01 Yeah, because sometimes even though you don't see any blood, doesn't mean it's not there.
25:02 Speaker 00 Yeah, we've definitely heard of that before. On October 24th, the police obtained a production order for data from the user squirt on a gay hookup site. They have reason to believe MacArthur, Kinsman, Essen, and Navaratinum had accounts on the site. And we kind of talked about this a little bit in episode one. This is one of the ways that they linked Bruce to some of these men. On October 2nd, 2017, investigators obtained tracking warrants for two cell phone numbers used by MacArthur. The warrant application stated that the police were developing a plan to invite MacArthur
25:45 Speaker 00 to the station for an interview as a person of interest in hopes it would incite him to reach out to another person or take actions that could help locate Andrew Kinsman.
25:58 Speaker 01 I can see how that could happen. Sometimes people make phone calls after their interview.
26:03 Speaker 00 Or maybe they might get so scared that they would, you know, go to a location where a person's being held or move a body or any number of things.
26:14 Speaker 01 That's true.
26:15 Speaker 00 On November 8th, MacArthur officially became a suspect in Kinsman's murder after traces of his blood were found in the van. Saleem Essen's DNA was also found in the van. So, you know, obviously, these were big breaks, right? In the case. Now, if you're thinking trial down the road, you know, what is a defense attorney going to have to, to put out there to counteract this type of evidence?
26:46 Speaker 01 Well, he knew the guys. They had a relationship, sexual relationship.
26:51 Speaker 00 And maybe they had, you know, sex in the van.
26:54 Speaker 01 Down by the river?
26:55 Speaker 00 Down by the river. The following day, a mobile surveillance unit restarted covert surveillance of MacArthur. On November 17, 2017, Cadaver Dogs searched the area behind 53 Mallory Crescent, a house where MacArthur stored landscaping equipment, but there were no results. On December 5th, the police obtained a general warrant to covertly enter MacArthur's apartment to clone data from his devices. Investigators did enter the apartment, but had to leave quickly because an unnamed person was on the way home. On the 7th, police returned
27:35 Speaker 00 to MacArthur's apartment for just over an hour, but had to leave because MacArthur was on his way home. The police were able to obtain swabs of an orange stain on MacArthur's pillow and a metal bar wrapped with tape. They also found posted notes with website account names and passwords. I know that's how you have always kept your account names and passwords. I've told you repeatedly, it's not a very safe way to do it, especially when you used to tape them, you know, just on the side of your monitor where everybody could see them. These weren't, these were not business sites. These were clearly personal sites.
28:20 Speaker 00 This was back in the days when companies didn't really track your internet usage.
28:26 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah.
28:27 Speaker 00 So much at work, or they didn't have the ability to block you from getting to certain websites.
28:33 Speaker 01 The good old days.
28:35 Speaker 00 You never knew what you'd see when you passed by Gibby's Cubicle.
28:39 Speaker 01 Just keep walking if you don't like what you see.
28:42 Speaker 00 When looking through MacArthur's computer data, investigators found over 100 photos of Andrew Kinsman. Some of the photos dated back to 2007. In the middle of the investigation, during a December 8th news conference, the Toronto Police told the public they had no evidence of a serial killer in the gay village.
29:06 Speaker 01 So why would they say that?
29:08 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, maybe they didn't want to scare people. I mean, obviously, they thought MacArthur had done some things, right? They were keeping an eye on him. He was in their crosshairs, but maybe they didn't think he had done enough to be considered a serial killer? I don't know. On December 11, 2017, the police installed a hidden camera to capture the garage door of 53 Mallory Crescent, the house belonging to MacArthur's landscaping client. On January 17, 2018, the police found critical evidence linking MacArthur to Saleem
29:49 Speaker 00 Essen and Andrew Kinsman's disappearances. Photos of the two men and other victims were found on MacArthur's devices. All of the men were deceased in these photos and posed in a fur coat or with the murder weapon wrapped around their throat. MacArthur attempted to delete these photos, but they were uncovered through forensic analysis. So there's a couple of things here. One, we've talked about many times, which is just because you think you've deleted something doesn't mean the police won't be able to recover it. The second for me is, you know, not only has he committed a number of murders.
30:36 Speaker 00 But for some reason, he felt compelled to take pictures of these men after they were dead. I mean, this is bombshell type evidence, right? That you're creating. It's not that you're leaving hair behind or, and you don't know about it. You know, you're taking these pictures. You also know you don't have to.
31:00 Speaker 01 But you're still doing it.
31:01 Speaker 00 Yeah. Yeah. It's almost like he was compelled. Additionally, photos of the surviving assault victim from 2016 were also found on MacArthur's devices. In some of them, the man was wearing a fur coat that looked similar to the one the deceased victims were wearing. And remember, we talked about a fur coat in episode one. He had a fur coat laid out in his van and attempted, I think, to kill someone in the van, but that person got away. So there's something with this fur coat. Investigators also saw that on April 7, 2017, MacArthur
31:42 Speaker 00 emailed himself a photo of Skanda Navarado, the first known victim. On January 18, 2018, Bruce MacArthur was arrested and charged with two counts of first degree murder for the deaths of Andrew Kinsman and Saleem Essam. Detective Sergeant Hank Inzenga told the public, is quoted by the CBC, "We believe he's responsible for the deaths of Mr. Essam and Mr. Kinsman, and we believe he is responsible for the deaths of other men who have yet to be identified." Okay, so they came out and they said, you know, "We don't have a
32:22 Speaker 00 serial killer in the gay village, or we don't have evidence." I think at this point, that has changed. If you're saying, "We're charging him with two murders, and we believe that he's killed other men," but then you're talking about a serial killer.
32:42 Speaker 01 You are.
32:43 Speaker 00 Inzenga revealed MacArthur and Kinsman had a sexual relationship for some time, but police didn't know if MacArthur had a relationship of any kind with Saleem Essam. MacArthur was arrested while attempting to murder another victim.
33:00 Speaker 01 Wow.
33:01 Speaker 00 On the morning of January 18th, a man named John met him at the apartment. They connected on a dating app in the summer of 2017 and had sex several times before this. MacArthur asked John if anyone knew he was coming over and John said, no. MacArthur said he wanted to try something different. MacArthur handcuffed John and put a leather bag over his head. John was able to get the bag off and MacArthur attempted to tape his mouth shut. Because MacArthur was under surveillance, officers saw a man go into the building and went to the apartment to make the arrest. John was found restrained in the bedroom.
33:43 Speaker 00 So, you know, here again, when this guy finds out later, the full extent of what Bruce MacArthur had done. I mean, how lucky does he have to feel?
33:55 Speaker 01 I think he has to feel extremely lucky.
33:57 Speaker 00 That he really dodged probably death.
34:01 Speaker 01 Probably very thankful when they came and knocked on the door that day.
34:05 Speaker 00 You know, but I also talked about putting yourself or allowing yourself to be put in a very compromising position. Well, you know, being handcuffed, being restrained. It doesn't get a whole lot more compromising than that.
34:22 Speaker 01 You wouldn't know.
34:23 Speaker 00 Yeah, the difference is mine's all been recreational. Yours has been law enforcement mandated.
34:34 Speaker 00 As we mentioned, forensic analysis showed that MacArthur had a folder of photos for each of the eight known victims. He also downloaded photos of John from social media and saved them in a ninth folder. There was also a photo of John on his bed. By all indications, it seems like MacArthur intended for John to be the next victim. So not only is he killing, you know, a large number of men, he's really kind of keeping a treasure trove of evidence pointing to, you know, his involvement with these men. And in some cases, really pointing to the fact that he killed these men.
35:16 Speaker 01 Sure.
35:16 Speaker 00 I mean, how do you get a photo of them deceased if you weren't involved with them dying? John is Middle Eastern, like several of the victims. He's married and kept his sexuality secret from his family and friends. And it does seem like there were a lot of these guys kept their sexuality secret from either wives or, you know, family, you know, is that something that MacArthur looked for? And he was asking these guys, does anybody know you're here? Do you keep in contact with your family?
35:55 Speaker 00 There's no doubt he was trying to gauge whether or not some of these individuals would be missed.
36:02 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean, they sound like the prime screening questions for what would make the best victim for him.
36:11 Speaker 00 On the day of his arrest, investigators also said they secured five properties connected to MacArthur, including his apartment, a house connected to a friend in Scarborough, a property connected to this same friend in Maddox, a house in Midtown Toronto where MacArthur worked as a landscaper, and another address in Toronto. So he didn't own five properties, but obviously he had some association with all five, one of them being his apartment. One of these properties was the house on Mallory Crescent that had been under surveillance. The couple who owned the home went away for weekends in the spring and summer.
36:56 Speaker 00 Bruce stored his equipment here and did house sitting. While the couple was away, MacArthur had keys to their house. And it was this home, Gibbs, that was the location of most of his criminal activity.
37:12 Speaker 00 And there's two thoughts that I have about that. Number one, it's fairly smart. Right? That's a, that's a better idea than to bring these men back to your apartment.
37:25 Speaker 01 Oh, for sure.
37:26 Speaker 00 Yeah. And then the other thing was that, okay, if you're the people that own this house, eventually it's going to come out that this man who you trusted to kind of house it, was killing people inside your home while you were away.
37:44 Speaker 01 Not a good situation to be in.
37:46 Speaker 00 No, and I would think for some, you know, it's going to be hard to continue to live there. You know, after learning about that, in the case of Abdul Basir Faze, his abandoned vehicle was found just about a kilometer from this house. On one occasion, the owners returned home and found the dark stain on their bedroom floor. MacArthur told them that he spilled the coat and tried to clean it. Homeowner Karen Fraser recalled that MacArthur once brought victim Majid Kayan to the house, and she had seen him working with younger Middle Eastern men.
38:25 Speaker 00 She told the CBC that MacArthur had wonderful clients and he was kind and generous to them. He was a cheerful, kind grandfather and made her laugh with his client stories.
38:38 Speaker 01 The other personality.
38:40 Speaker 00 The one that he wanted others to see.
38:42 Speaker 01 Yes.
38:43 Speaker 00 MacArthur was questioned after he was arrested. He claimed he had not seen Andrew Kinsman since December 2016. When he viewed a photo of Saleem Essen, he said he looked like a man he randomly met and befriended in 2017, but he didn't remember his name. He said he picked him up in the area of the gay village and took him back to his apartment. They had sex and the man left. And we talked about this just a little bit ago, right? This is, you would think, going to be kind of central in any type of defense for Bruce MacArthur.
39:24 Speaker 00 Yes, I was active on, you know, these dating apps or these dating websites. I had sex with a lot of different men, but that doesn't mean I killed them.
39:36 Speaker 01 No, it doesn't.
39:37 Speaker 00 Now you're gonna have to explain why you have photos of their dead bodies and, and things like that. The police executed the search warrant on the Mallory Crescent House. From January 21st to the 26th, they removed plastic crates and bins, a suitcase and a hacksaw. Search warrants from January 2018 identified Sarush Mahmudi and Majid Kayan as two more victims. On January 29th, 2018, MacArthur was charged with three more counts of first degree murder for the deaths of Kayan Mahmudi and Dean Listaway.
40:20 Speaker 00 The police revealed they found dismembered remains of at least three people in the bottom of large planters at the house on Mallory Crescent. And this was the first time the police called MacArthur a serial killer.
40:35 Speaker 01 They're finally coming to realize what he's done.
40:38 Speaker 00 Or they're finally willing to admit to the public. One or the other. But think about, you know, they find a hacksaw and then it's discovered that the remains of three people were buried in these planters at the house of these people that he kind of house set for, where he stored some of his equipment. Yeah, you're gonna have to sell that house. You're not going to be able to live in that house. Also, you're gonna take a beating on that house because nobody's gonna pay what it's worth.
41:14 Speaker 01 No, not with the rumors going around about it.
41:18 Speaker 00 And I don't know about you, I go back to this, you know, spilling of coke on a rug or a carpet. Think most of us have done that.
41:27 Speaker 01 Oh, I spill stuff all the time.
41:29 Speaker 00 You do. You are clumsy as shit.
41:32 Speaker 01 Sprite in my, at then boss's car.
41:35 Speaker 00 But think about a coke, okay, it's dark liquid. But you know, if you get on it, you can clean that up.
41:42 Speaker 01 Yeah, most cases, sure.
41:44 Speaker 00 I mean, is it the same as a kind of a large blood pool? And I would say, no, that's a little harder to clean up than a spilled coke. But again, you have to come up with something. You can't tell the truth. You know, I murdered someone in your home and, you know, this is their blood.
42:06 Speaker 01 Well, you could tell the truth, but it wouldn't go well for you.
42:09 Speaker 00 Yeah, I guess you could, but not if you're into self-preservation. In January 2018, the Alliance for South Asian AIDS Prevention issued an open letter calling for the Toronto Police Service to review whether the racial or sexual backgrounds of the men affected the resources or effort put into investigating their disappearances. The group also demanded an external review. The letter stated, "It's saddening and unacceptable that it took the disappearance of Andrew Kinsman to reopen public interest in the cases of the missing South Asian and Middle Eastern men."
42:51 Speaker 00 So basically, this letter was suggesting that it wasn't until Andrew Kinsman disappeared that the disappearances were finally taken seriously. The letter said that "a different standard of justice for racialized and LGBTQ plus people is the reality of our city and province." And it gives, how many times has this come up in the cases that we've done where, you know, a charge is levied against the police that they didn't do as much as they should have, they didn't put, you know, the resources into the investigation that they should have
43:35 Speaker 00 because of the backgrounds of the victims or the people who had gone missing?
43:42 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think it comes up a lot more frequent than most would realize.
43:48 Speaker 00 Yeah, or like to believe.
43:50 Speaker 01 Yes.
43:50 Speaker 00 You know, whether it's race, whether it's, you know, where someone hails from, or whether it's what someone does for a living. We have seen pretty concrete examples that you have kind of proven out that police didn't do what they might have done if the person was someone else. Now, I'm not saying that happens all the time, but it does happen. You know, folks, we're getting closer to Black Friday and Cyber Monday, where everyone's going to be racing to get the best deals. But what about the retailer on the other end, trying to get every one of those orders out the door during peak season?
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45:18 Speaker 00 Peak season doesn't wait, and neither should you. Get ahead of it today with ShipStation and get 60 days free at shipstation.com with code TCATT. That's shipstation.com code TCATT. Taxes and fees apply. Toronto Police spokesman Megan Gray said investigators worked diligently throughout Project Houston to find the missing men in a February 2018 interview with CBC. Lead investigator Detective Sergeant Haik Idzinga was asked if the police considered a possible serial killer during Project Houston, which was in operation from 2012 to 2014.
46:01 Speaker 00 He responded, "To be accused of not considering that is in effect not accurate. We're human beings. Of course, are we thinking, is that a possibility?" He said at the time, there was no evidence of foul play involved in the disappearances, adding, "I wish we had that evidence in 2013. I wish we could have stopped it in 2013." And I'm sure that's a truthful statement. Would they have liked to have stopped it before many more people were killed? Absolutely. And I think, you know, part of his statement does shed some light on, okay, yeah, was there talk about a possible serial killer? Was that part of the thinking?
46:47 Speaker 00 Yes. But when they didn't even have evidence of foul play in the disappearances, it's pretty hard to come out and say, hey, I think we have a serial killer here.
46:58 Speaker 01 Yeah.
46:59 Speaker 00 Cause we don't even know what happened to these individuals.
47:02 Speaker 01 That's true.
47:03 Speaker 00 But once the evidence is obtained, it's, it's pretty easy.
47:07 Speaker 01 Then you can change your statement then.
47:09 Speaker 00 Yeah. On February 8th, 2018, the police announced that the remains of three more people were found in planters at the Mallory Crescent House, bringing the total to six victims. One set of remains was identified as Andrew Kinsman. On February 16th, police documents identified Skandaraw Navaratinam and Abdul Basir Faze as two more victims of MacArthur. On February 23rd, MacArthur was charged with the first degree murder of Navaratinam after authorities confirmed his remains were among those found in the planters. Sarush Mahmudi's remains were also identified.
47:53 Speaker 00 So, you know, first of all, it doesn't seem as though he went to a great extent to get rid of these remains. Yes, sounds like he dismembered them. He buried them in planters. Did he think anyone was going to find them in the planters? No, probably not. But could he have done a better job of, you know, hiding them, really getting kind of rid of them? And I would say, yes, I'm glad he didn't.
48:26 Speaker 01 No, but he could have.
48:28 Speaker 00 Yeah. On March 5th, 2018, the police announced they discovered a seventh set of human remains in the planners at the Mallory Crescent home. During a news conference later that day, the police released a photo of a deceased man found on MacArthur's computer. This was kind of a last resort to try to figure out the man's identity. So, police are finding remains of people that they're linking to MacArthur, but they're also finding pictures of dead people on his computer.
49:03 Speaker 01 Which has to be strange.
49:05 Speaker 00 Well, it has to make the police wonder. How many people did this guy really kill? Because we only know about the ones that, you know, we've tied to him. We found remains. But you've got pictures on the computer. At least one of the individuals not identified was dead in the picture. I'm sure there was many more pictures on there. Could he have killed others but just didn't take a picture of their body after death?
49:35 Speaker 01 Strong possibility.
49:36 Speaker 00 Well, it's gotta be a big question, right? What's a true number? What's the count? How many murders did this man commit? On April 4th, 2018, the police obtained a production order for MacArthur's probation records from 2003. In their application, the police noted their efforts to track MacArthur's movements throughout his adulthood were hindered by his ex-wife and son's unwillingness to talk to the police.
50:03 Speaker 01 It's gonna make the police think they know something about it.
50:07 Speaker 00 Yeah, I could see how police would think that. You know, the other thing is, you know, do you really want your ex-husband to be a serial killer? Do you want your dad to be a serial killer? Because what's that going to do to your life?
50:22 Speaker 01 Well, maybe some of our listeners might want that, you know, because their love for true crime.
50:26 Speaker 00 Might want their exes to be, uh, found out to be serial killers?
50:32 Speaker 01 Or maybe not.
50:33 Speaker 00 May- maybe not. Now, maybe they hate him so much that they want it because of that.
50:39 Speaker 01 That's a good.
50:40 Speaker 00 But you think about, now you're the ex-wife of a serial killer.
50:43 Speaker 01 Yeah.
50:44 Speaker 00 You're the son of a serial killer. So are you really wanting to help with the investigation all that much? Maybe not.
50:51 Speaker 01 Maybe not.
50:52 Speaker 00 On April 11, 2018, MacArthur was charged with the murder of Abdul Basir Faze, bringing the total to seven charges against him. Faze's remains had been identified, along with the remains of Saleem Essen and Dean Lissowick. In an April 12 search warrant, the police wrote they had no evidence to suggest anyone assisted MacArthur with the murders. On April 16, MacArthur was charged with the murder of Karushna Kumar Kannagaratna, whose remains had been identified. He was first identified as the deceased man in the photo. That was
51:32 Speaker 00 released in March. On May 7, 2018, after the ground thawed, the police sent out cadaver dog teams to investigate 100 properties linked to MacArthur's landscaping work. And we haven't even talked about that.
51:49 Speaker 01 No, we haven't.
51:50 Speaker 00 You know, this guy's a landscaper. He's working for all kinds of people. You know, could he have buried a body part here, there, you know, scattered them over a number of different properties where he was doing landscaping work?
52:07 Speaker 01 Yeah, probably pretty easily. It's kind of.
52:11 Speaker 00 Macabre to think about, but that your landscaper is, uh, using your property to dispose of their victims. The police completed their inch by inch search of MacArthur's apartment on May 15. They collected over 1,800 pieces of evidence in what was the. Largest forensic examination in Toronto police history. So, I mean, this was absolutely huge investigation, but it had to be, right? Here's a man who was linked to the death and thought to be a serial killer of at least seven people.
52:52 Speaker 01 Yeah.
52:52 Speaker 00 Possibly eight people. When searching MacArthur's bedroom, the police found duct tape, a glove, rope, zip ties, a black bungee cord, and syringes. They also found Dean Lisiewicz's beaded necklace, Saleem Essen's personal notebook, and Skanda Navaratinum's bracelet in the apartment.
53:14 Speaker 01 That's a pretty good find.
53:16 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, obviously, there's a lot of stuff here that, you know, people would say, well, I have that stuff in my house. And I do. I have duct tape. I've got gloves. I think I even have some zip ties. I probably got bungee cords.
53:30 Speaker 01 I know. I keep all those in a nice little bag in my trunk.
53:34 Speaker 00 Yeah, I keep them in like a toolbox in separate areas. They're not like in a to-go bag.
53:40 Speaker 01 Oh.
53:41 Speaker 00 Like they are for you, but I don't know when I'm gonna need duct tape or zip ties or whatever. But when you start finding known items.
53:53 Speaker 01 Yeah.
53:54 Speaker 00 Of the victims. Okay. Could you make a case that, oh, well, the person left it here? We had a sexual relationship. Yes, the defense could try to make that case. But the evidence is mounting, right? And it's mounting pretty high.
54:14 Speaker 01 Yeah.
54:15 Speaker 00 At this point.
54:17 Speaker 01 I think the prosecutor would be happy with all this. And obviously, the defense would be getting really nervous.
54:24 Speaker 00 Yeah, I would agree with you, but you know, I also, I don't understand why so many killers feel the need to keep these trophies. I get it. They, they use them. They get some kind of thrill. They're able to relive through them, what they've done, but you are really condemning yourself. If any of this stuff is found, taking a big chance.
54:57 Speaker 01 A huge risk.
54:59 Speaker 00 But is risk part of the equation for some of these people?
55:03 Speaker 01 Oh, for sure. It's what gets their heart beating.
55:07 Speaker 00 I was kind of gonna go the other way.
55:09 Speaker 01 Yeah.
55:10 Speaker 00 And, and say, well, if they were so worried about it, they wouldn't do what they're doing in the first place. But yeah, maybe there's a little bit of both.
55:19 Speaker 01 Well, that's true. Yeah.
55:21 Speaker 00 You know, maybe the risk, the excitement is part of what they're doing. The fur coat used to pose the victims after death was found in a hidden compartment of MacArthur's van. On June 1st, 2018, K-9 units completed their search of 100 properties, including the Mallory Crescent home. In July 2018, the Toronto Police launched the service's first ever dedicated missing persons unit after facing public scrutiny over how the missing men's cases were handled.
55:58 Speaker 01 So some good comes out of it.
56:00 Speaker 00 Well, some good came out of it. In this instance, you would hope that it would carry forward.
56:05 Speaker 01 Yeah.
56:06 Speaker 00 That, you know, nothing like that would ever happen again. On July 4th, the police began excavating the forested ravine behind the Mallory Crescent home. And man, what are you thinking if you're these people that own this home? First of all, they've probably dug up the whole place.
56:24 Speaker 01 Yeah.
56:25 Speaker 00 It looks like they just have like thousands of moles.
56:27 Speaker 01 Yeah.
56:28 Speaker 00 Probably in the yard. You've got packs of cadaver dogs that have searched the whole place. They're digging. Now they're excavating behind the house.
56:39 Speaker 01 I think I'd be on my, on the phone with my agent. Hey, this house you sold me. I'm not sure if I really want to stay here anymore.
56:46 Speaker 00 Well, but what choice do you have? You can't sell a house that's being checked for body parts and, and they're every day finding a new body part.
56:56 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's not gonna, you're not gonna have a great, uh.
56:59 Speaker 00 That's like the scene from, uh, Step Brothers when they're trying to sell the house and they're doing everything they can to scare, uh, scare away the, uh, potential buyer.
57:09 Speaker 01 Oh, those are some great scenes right there.
57:12 Speaker 00 On July 5th, the police confirmed they found more human remains in the area. Back in May, K-9 units indicated human body parts were buried there. So this is the excavation behind the house. The excavation ended on July 12th. Investigators revealed they found human remains nearly every day of the search. On July 20th, the remains found in the ravine were identified as Majid Kayan. So the search lasts a week, let's say seven days or so. Every day they're finding human remains.
57:53 Speaker 00 Now, it makes it sound like these were all remains of Kayan. So does that just mean his remains were scattered all over the property?
58:05 Speaker 01 What it sounds like.
58:07 Speaker 00 During a news conference, lead investigator Idzinga said they had no reason to believe they would find the remains of any more victims at any of the properties they searched. And I don't know, Gibbs, if that was based off of all of the work that cadaver dogs had did. They probably felt pretty confident that they had found everything they were going to find.
58:29 Speaker 01 Yeah.
58:30 Speaker 00 It did check a hundred properties.
58:32 Speaker 01 It's a lot of properties.
58:33 Speaker 00 It is. On October 22nd, 2018, MacArthur waived his right to a preliminary inquiry and was ordered to stand trial. On November 30th, a judge announced his trial would begin January 6th, 2020, and would likely take three to four months. So that's over. A year and I get it. Both sides need time to repair and all of that, but uh.
58:59 Speaker 01 It's a long time.
59:00 Speaker 00 It is a long time. We often see that in big trials though, but this trial would never happen. On January 29th, 2019, Bruce MacArthur pleaded guilty to eight counts of first degree murder. His guilty plea resulted in an automatic life sentence. And why would he do that?
59:19 Speaker 01 Well, maybe he just wants to go ahead and get the clock ticking.
59:22 Speaker 00 Get the clock ticking on what? The end of his life?
59:26 Speaker 01 But does a life sentence always mean a life sentence?
59:28 Speaker 00 Not in Canada. It, it, it doesn't. I would hope in this case it would, but I don't know. I just had this thought that I get it. There's so much evidence against you, but you're not going to get more than a life sentence in Canada, right? So why not roll the dice? Maybe he just was tired of it all. Didn't want to sit through a trial. I don't know. On February 4th and 5th, the Crown read a 36-page statement of facts during the sentencing hearing, which revealed shocking details to the public. The murders involved sexual assault or forcible confinement, and MacArthur murdered victims via ligature strangulation.
1:00:13 Speaker 00 Afterwards, he engaged in post-defense rituals, such as posing the victims and dressing them. He took hundreds of photos of dead victims with a rope around their neck cinched with a bar.
1:00:28 Speaker 01 So weird.
1:00:30 Speaker 00 And the victims were posed nude, some had cigars in their mouth, shaved or with a fur coat and hat. Some photos were taken in his bedroom or vehicle. The murders were planned and deliberate, producing a uniformity in the way they were executed. MacArthur dismembered the victims and buried them at his client's property. He kept souvenirs from the victims, such as jewelry and notebooks, and kept digital files of all the victims categorizing them into subfolders.
1:01:10 Speaker 01 That is so shocking.
1:01:13 Speaker 00 But is it? I mean, we've seen serial killers, you know, keep so much incriminating stuff. Now, I think this digital file thing is a little different for me. You know, he's got photos, he's got who knows what else in these files on his computer, kept in subfolders.
1:01:39 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:01:39 Speaker 00 Like, we would keep spreadsheets or, you know, monthly expenses.
1:01:46 Speaker 01 But such a risk to have that on there. I mean, you can encrypt it, I guess, but most of these agencies, police department, IT people, they're pretty, pretty darn smart. They know how to break a lot of that encryption stuff.
1:02:01 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, I think when you do that stuff for a living, yeah, you get pretty good at it. The police also found a metal bar and a rope used in the murders, which signaled MacArthur's desire to keep the weapons despite their incriminating nature. And, and it did sound, Gibbs, to me, as though he was almost using like this rope and the bar as kind of a garrote.
1:02:27 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:02:27 Speaker 00 And, and maybe twisting the bar to tighten and strangle his victims. On February 8th, 2019, Bruce MacArthur was sentenced to life with no parole for at least 25 years. The judge noted, it's highly unlikely MacArthur will ever walk free. And this guy should never walk free.
1:02:49 Speaker 01 Oh, he should not.
1:02:50 Speaker 00 But we've talked about it, right? Canada's a little more lenient when it comes to sentencing sometimes than, than we are here in the US. But I think when you have a guy like Bruce MacArthur and the evidence is so strong and the murder count is so high, I get it, he may come up for parole in 25 years, but the parole board's gonna look at what he did and say, no way, buddy.
1:03:18 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:03:19 Speaker 00 You ain't getting out.
1:03:20 Speaker 01 You're staying right where you're at.
1:03:22 Speaker 00 Or they're gonna give him a day pass and let him go in to town shopping. I, I don't know. We've seen some. Different types of things, right, in other countries. But I don't think that will happen with MacArthur. The judge told MacArthur that his crimes were pure evil, but cited his guilty plea, which spared the victims' families from going through a traumatic trial in his age as his reason to grant parole. So apparently, the judge could have said, no parole. Now, I think it is important to point out, right? The guy was in his 70s. So maybe that was part of the, it's highly unlikely MacArthur will ever walk free,
1:04:05 Speaker 00 because he's probably not going to make it 25 more years.
1:04:08 Speaker 01 Yeah, unlikely.
1:04:10 Speaker 00 You know, but this sparing the families from going through a trial. You know, I think for some families, that could be a huge thing, to not have to hear all the really horrible details of what happened to their loved ones. Now, there could be some families or family members who think, no, I don't want to let this guy off the hook. I want him to face the prosecution. The judge noted that MacArthur showed no remorse, adding Bruce MacArthur is a sexual predator and killer who lured his victims and ended up killing them for his own warped and sick gratification.
1:04:54 Speaker 01 Spot on.
1:04:55 Speaker 00 Yeah, I think it is for a lot of killers. After the proceedings were over, Toronto's LGBTQ community accused the police of not doing enough to catch the killer. Chief Mark Saunders said they might have caught MacArthur sooner if residents of the gay village were more forthcoming. We knew that people were missing, and we knew we didn't have the right answers, but nobody was coming to us with anything. And, you know, this was a statement that was not well received.
1:05:28 Speaker 01 I bet.
1:05:28 Speaker 00 And it sounds pretty harsh, right? Hey, we could have caught him, but nobody in the community came forward to help him.
1:05:36 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:05:37 Speaker 00 Now, is there a reason that that some people in that community would not want to come forward? We've already said it. You know, some of the victims were married.
1:05:48 Speaker 01 That's true. And some of them came from some very unfriendly countries.
1:05:56 Speaker 00 Countries who were very unfriendly to gay people.
1:06:00 Speaker 01 Exactly.
1:06:01 Speaker 00 Very intolerant. So maybe, you know, they had that kind of seared into their, their mind. You know, as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, Bruce MacArthur is often cited as an unusual serial killer, mostly due to his age. This guy was killing at a grandfatherly age, like well into a grandfather, maybe a great grandfatherly age. Crime experts say that, you know, most serial killers start murdering victims in their mid to late 30s. This guy was, but he started when he was in his 60s, I think.
1:06:42 Speaker 00 So for that reason, it's a little strange. Now, does it mean he didn't murder a bunch of people 30 years prior? No, we don't know. We never know. But at that age, he was working as a traveling salesman. And I think that alone has raised the possibility of additional victims throughout the Ontario province. Right? When you're traveling around, would it be a little bit easier to get away with some of these crimes?
1:07:13 Speaker 01 I think so.
1:07:14 Speaker 00 Yeah. You're kind of blowing in and out of town. According to the National Post, local police have been advised to go back through their unsolved cases from 20, 30 years ago. Bruce MacArthur took the lives of eight men. Several of the victims came from marginalized groups. This is a guy who lived a double life for many, many years. To most people, he was this friendly landscaper. But as we heard from survivors who had encounters with MacArthur, he had a real dark side and an inner rage that could be deadly. And I think the same thing can be said about many, many serial killers.
1:07:56 Speaker 01 Oh, for sure.
1:07:58 Speaker 00 And your family sees you one way. Your friends see you a certain way, but it's not going to be usually the way that your victims are going to see you. You can't show that dark side to, you know, the people you live with day in and day out.
1:08:17 Speaker 01 No, you can't. Or you shouldn't.
1:08:20 Speaker 00 Well, you can't do it and expect to go unnoticed. Now, you think about Dexter. I bring Dexter up a lot, but Dexter had to learn how to blend in. Right? He was terrible at showing emotion. He had to learn to fake it. And I think a lot of these killers have to, to learn some of those types of things because they don't want to get caught.
1:08:47 Speaker 01 They don't.
1:08:48 Speaker 00 Most of them. Right? If you get caught, you can't keep doing the sick stuff that you want to do.
1:08:55 Speaker 01 No, you cannot.
1:08:56 Speaker 00 But that's it for our episode on Bruce MacArthur. We got some voicemails. You want to check those out?
1:09:02 Speaker 01 I love hearing those.
1:09:03 Speaker 00 All right.
1:09:04 Speaker 02 Hey, my team, Debbie. Um, my name's Victoria. I've been listening since 2017. I won't bother you with all that. Um, sorry if it's loud because I'm at work. I listen to you guys, um, at work. I'm a elder, but I just wanted to call you guys. First time caller because I have officially been traumatized. Um, nothing normally bothers me, but I was listening to your, um, William K. Dean, um, story on Unsolved. And normally, you know, at the end of every Unsolved, when y'all give like the website or whatever, if you have information on the case. Well, I never look them up, but where this one was so old, I decided to look it up.
1:09:46 Speaker 02 And, um, there's the pictures of this deceased man on that website. And that's just, um, I wasn't prepared and that's all. But, um, love you guys. Keep doing what you're doing and I love this show. It's the only podcast I listen to and I love through prime. But thanks, uh, keep your own fun thinking. Bye.
1:10:12 Speaker 00 All right. Thanks for the voicemail. I probably should have put that on and saw. You know, you do have to be careful in your research.
1:10:18 Speaker 01 Yeah, you do.
1:10:19 Speaker 00 Because, you know, the interwebs out there, there's a lot of crazy stuff.
1:10:25 Speaker 01 There is. You never know what you're going to get when you click sometimes.
1:10:29 Speaker 00 Yeah, what you're going to stumble upon.
1:10:30 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:10:31 Speaker 03 Hi, Mike and Gibby. My name's Sarah and I'm calling from Australia. Just to let you guys know that I've been on a nine hour car ride from South Australia all the way to New South Wales. I've got three hours left in my car ride. And I have gone through about five podcasts already. I started at Matthew Owen and I've gotten through quite a lot. It's been a wild ride. Love the podcast, by the way. The amount of research that must go into them is absolutely phenomenal.
1:11:13 Speaker 03 I hope you guys have a wonderful Christmas and keep your own time ticking. Bye.
1:11:19 Speaker 01 Nine hour drive.
1:11:21 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:11:21 Speaker 01 It's a long time.
1:11:22 Speaker 00 It is. It is. Can take quite a while, right, to get across Australia. But you know what I will say? I think Australian is my favorite accent.
1:11:34 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:11:34 Speaker 00 I just love it. Not yours, so please don't do it.
1:11:38 Speaker 01 You sure?
1:11:38 Speaker 00 I'm positive because that wasn't even a good one. But I just love, and they're different, right?
1:11:45 Speaker 01 Just they are.
1:11:46 Speaker 00 Depending on where you are in Australia, just like we, ours are here in the US. But I just like that accent so much. All right, we had some mailbag this week. Donna Paduano sent us a big Christmas box and it had a bunch of Harley tokens in it, some Twizzlers for you, and then also like TCAT Christmas ornaments and mugs that were handmade for both you and I.
1:12:15 Speaker 01 Very nice.
1:12:16 Speaker 00 Yeah. So thank you, Donna, very much. All right, buddy. That is it. Another episode of True Crime All The Time. So for Mike.
1:12:24 Speaker 01 And Gibby.
1:12:25 Speaker 00 Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.
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