Pod Insights True Crime All The Time Jonathan Scott Graham About this episode In the early morning hours of August 16th, 1986 an intruder entered the home of 27-year-old Gary Larson and stabbed him to death before raping Gary’s fiancee. The case was unsolved for almost twenty years, until a peeping tom was arrested in 2004, when authorities noticed similarities to the suspect in the cold case.
Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Jonathan Scott Graham. Graham had a history of peeping around his neighborhood. When he was arrested on something unrelated to the murder, the authorities noticed striking similarities to the murder of Gary Larson. However, another suspect had been identified and charged years prior.
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1:47 Speaker 00 Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode 429 of the True Crime All the Time Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson, and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?
1:58 Speaker 01 Hey, I'm doing good. How about you?
1:59 Speaker 00 I'm doing great.
2:00 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:00 Speaker 00 We talked about it on Patreon, but my wife is on her spring break.
2:04 Speaker 01 She is.
2:05 Speaker 00 So she's down in Florida with her mom. Every day I get a picture of the drink of the day. So it seems like she's having a good time.
2:12 Speaker 01 What about the other pictures she's sending?
2:14 Speaker 00 Just those.
2:15 Speaker 01 Okay.
2:16 Speaker 00 Just those.
2:16 Speaker 01 Just checking.
2:18 Speaker 00 You're trying, you're trying to, to get me to admit something that's not happening.
2:22 Speaker 01 Maybe.
2:23 Speaker 00 Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Brad O H.
2:27 Speaker 01 Hi, O.
2:28 Speaker 00 Shafen.
2:29 Speaker 01 Oh, hey, Shafen.
2:30 Speaker 00 So that's pretty cool. Audrey Fetzer.
2:32 Speaker 01 What's going on, Audrey?
2:34 Speaker 00 Tats and Cats.
2:35 Speaker 01 Ah, you gotta love some tats and cats.
2:37 Speaker 00 Kelly Murphy.
2:38 Speaker 01 What's going on, Murphy?
2:39 Speaker 00 Jace Thornock.
2:40 Speaker 01 Thanks, Thornock.
2:41 Speaker 00 Erica C.
2:43 Speaker 01 C? Yeah.
2:45 Speaker 00 Yes.
2:45 Speaker 01 Yes.
2:47 Speaker 00 Colleen F.
2:48 Speaker 01 Hey, F.
2:49 Speaker 00 Mary M C.
2:51 Speaker 01 What's going on, M C?
2:52 Speaker 00 Lonnie Davis.
2:53 Speaker 01 Thanks, Lonnie.
2:54 Speaker 00 Brenda.
2:54 Speaker 01 Well, good old Brenda.
2:55 Speaker 00 And last but not least, Chad O'Neil.
2:57 Speaker 01 Well, never last, Chad.
2:59 Speaker 00 No, never last. And then we go back into the vault. This week, we selected Jody Searle.
3:05 Speaker 01 Oh, thanks, Jody.
3:06 Speaker 00 So appreciate the new Patreon support, the continued support. We also had a great PayPal donation from Gentry Summerall.
3:13 Speaker 01 Man, Gentry, thank you.
3:14 Speaker 00 Yeah, thank you very much. So Gibbs, right now, we have an episode out on True Crime All the Time Unsolved. We're actually headed to Scotland.
3:23 Speaker 01 Your hometown.
3:24 Speaker 00 Yeah, my hometown. It is a country, but it is where my ancestors are from. But we're talking about this Scottish banker named Alistair Wilson. He was gunned down outside his front door. And, uh, you know, there's a lot of mysterious things about the case, so check it out.
3:46 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's a good one. Hey, don't forget, Crime Con coming up.
3:51 Speaker 00 In September.
3:52 Speaker 01 It's the, yeah, that time right there.
3:56 Speaker 00 If you're going, uh, just use our promo code TCAT, T C A T T at, uh, crimecon.com.
4:03 Speaker 01 And come hang out with us.
4:04 Speaker 00 Yeah, hang out with us. All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All the Time?
4:09 Speaker 01 I am ready.
4:09 Speaker 00 We're talking about Jonathan Scott Graham. In the early morning hours of August 16th, 1986, an intruder entered the home of 27-year-old Gary Larson and stabbed him to death before raping Gary's fiance. The case was unsolved for almost 20 years until a peeping Tom was arrested in 2004, and authorities noticed similarities to the suspect in the cold case. And these are very interesting types of cases, you know?
4:42 Speaker 00 Anytime that you have a, a, a pretty cold case and, and obviously 20 years is cold.
4:49 Speaker 01 It is.
4:50 Speaker 00 As you and I do a lot of those on Unsolved. But the way that a cold case is solved is always very fascinating. Because you know, it's not like, you know, they solved it within a week. Right? They saw somebody on video. They went to talk to them. They put everything together. The person confessed. This is 20 years later catching somebody doing something similar. And noticing that there were similarities. To me, that, that's always amazing.
5:25 Speaker 01 It is. Especially knowing most likely the original investigators are probably not even part of the case.
5:32 Speaker 00 May not be at that point, right? 20 years is a long time.
5:35 Speaker 01 It is.
5:36 Speaker 00 Gary Dell Larson was born in 1958 and grew up in Muskegee, Oklahoma. Sources didn't provide a lot of information about his life, but his sister Diane was interviewed for the show Solved. And said that she was 12 years older than Gary and loved being his big sister.
5:56 Speaker 01 Oklahoma. Gotta love Oklahoma.
5:58 Speaker 00 Why do I have to love Oklahoma?
6:00 Speaker 01 Well, outside the fact that you did the play Oklahoma.
6:02 Speaker 00 Oh.
6:03 Speaker 01 It's just, it's a, it's a nice state, man.
6:05 Speaker 00 Yeah. Surrey with the fringe on top.
6:07 Speaker 01 That's you.
6:08 Speaker 00 12 years though, is a pretty big gap.
6:11 Speaker 01 That is, it's almost like a second mom.
6:14 Speaker 00 Okay. I'll go with you on that.
6:16 Speaker 01 Yeah.
6:16 Speaker 00 I hate to disagree with you anymore because people just give me crap for it.
6:20 Speaker 01 No, but you know.
6:21 Speaker 00 They always say. No, you're right.
6:23 Speaker 01 Yeah.
6:23 Speaker 00 If, if you have a sister who's 12 years older than you, she's going to be taking care of you all the time.
6:30 Speaker 01 Yeah. Telling you what to do.
6:32 Speaker 00 Gary graduated from college and became a CPA. His friends described him as an outgoing, bright young man who was kind and down to earth.
6:42 Speaker 01 Kind and down to earth. I like that.
6:44 Speaker 00 Those are good qualities.
6:45 Speaker 01 They are.
6:46 Speaker 00 At the time of his death, he was living in Edmund, Oklahoma and was engaged to a woman whose name was not published in sources. So obviously we're going to be calling this woman his fiancee because we don't know her name.
7:01 Speaker 01 Yeah.
7:02 Speaker 00 On the night of August 15th, 1986, Gary and his fiance went to a performance at the Lyric Theater in nearby Oklahoma City. They went to a restaurant and a bar before heading back to Gary's house. His fiance planned to spend the night with him. So they got ready for bed and they left the bedroom window open because it was a warm night. They had just fallen asleep when shortly after midnight on August 16th, they heard a noise in the house. Gary went to investigate but found nothing as his fiance was drifting off to sleep. Gary got up to check things out one more time.
7:43 Speaker 01 Don't we all do that? When you hear something, you're like, what the heck is that?
7:47 Speaker 00 It happens to me all the time.
7:49 Speaker 01 Yeah.
7:50 Speaker 00 And it is definitely scary to be woken up by a sound that you don't know, hey, you know, is this coming from inside the house? Is it, you know, the dogs making noise?
8:05 Speaker 01 Right.
8:06 Speaker 00 Is it something outside? But for me, it's really hard to just go back to sleep. Like I have got to go check it out because if not, I'm going to just sit there and lay there and think about it.
8:19 Speaker 01 Problem with you is that you go full out Rambo. I'm going to check this out and, uh, you know, take no prisoners.
8:27 Speaker 00 Oh, yeah. Yeah. I put the black paint under my eyes.
8:31 Speaker 01 I know you do.
8:31 Speaker 00 Everything, just in case.
8:33 Speaker 01 I've been down here where all of a sudden you think you hear something upstairs and I'm like, what are you transferring into? You're like transforming into.
8:40 Speaker 00 I grab a weapon, do a roll, a barrel roll.
8:44 Speaker 01 Which is very funny because sometimes it takes you three or four times before you actually get the barrel roll down.
8:50 Speaker 00 I'm not as spry as I used to be.
8:52 Speaker 01 And then you're like, hey, can you give me a hand? Get back up. I'm like, okay, this is real threatening.
8:57 Speaker 00 So Gary gets up to check things out. His fiance heard a gasp and a groan of pain. When she called out for Gary, he didn't answer. She got up to check on him and saw a stranger across the hall. She later said he was wearing only a pair of men's briefs and gloves. And he was armed with a knife. Okay, first of all, very scary to hear a sound. We just talked about that. Even more scary and much more scary to see a stranger inside your home. And then I'll take it a step further and say even scarier. And a little weird too.
9:40 Speaker 00 For this stranger to be only wearing briefs and gloves.
9:45 Speaker 01 I think it's a little freaky, you know?
9:48 Speaker 00 I mean, that's, that's how you sometimes come into my house. And I'm like, how did you even get from your truck to the house?
9:56 Speaker 01 I wait till I get to the garage door area, then I drop my pants.
9:59 Speaker 00 Uh huh. And then knock on the door.
10:01 Speaker 01 Knock on the door.
10:02 Speaker 00 Just so you can see my face when I open it.
10:04 Speaker 01 Yeah.
10:05 Speaker 00 But you know, he's also armed with a knife. So no doubt, a very scary situation.
10:12 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
10:12 Speaker 00 According to the Daily Oklahoman, she hid in the bedroom. A few minutes later, she went into the adjoining bathroom, which had a second door that opened into the hallway. She peeked into the hall. That's when the stranger saw her and chased her through the bathroom into the bedroom. He tackled her on the bed and a struggle ensued. The man bound her and raped her for three hours at knife point.
10:40 Speaker 01 Brutal. Wow.
10:41 Speaker 00 Yeah, these are hard things to talk about because in your mind, you can't help but. Try to imagine, you don't want to, but you're imagining what this woman went through. And I think you can also kind of see why sources don't name her. The man didn't speak much, but she remembered him saying, "Time is of the essence," while deciding what to do with her. Gary's fiance focused on talking to the man and trying to reason with him so he wouldn't kill her.
11:14 Speaker 01 Strange thing to say, right? Time is of the essence?
11:17 Speaker 00 Yeah, it's a, it's a very lawyerly type business term.
11:23 Speaker 01 Yeah, something you'd see in a contract, but not for someone to say, "Why are they doing a terrible act?"
11:31 Speaker 00 Committing a violent sexual crime. But the one thing I will say is, and you do hear this quite often. I think this is a smart tactic on her part, right? Trying to talk to this person.
11:46 Speaker 01 Humanizing.
11:48 Speaker 00 Yeah, you've often heard people talk about that, right? How can you get this person to see you as a human being? Because that might be your best chance to escape the situation. Now, what's already happened to her is horrible.
12:05 Speaker 01 Sure it is.
12:06 Speaker 00 Should never happen, but she's still in a fight for her life. When everything was over, the man tied her with rope and left her in the bedroom closet. She heard him rummaging through the house. Before he left, she managed to escape and discovered Gary's body in the dining room. She then called the police. So obviously what happened to Gary was horrible because he lost his life. But what happened to this woman was, you know, terrible as well. I mean, she went through a very vicious, a very long lasting sexual attack, and then had to find her fiance dead.
12:48 Speaker 01 Very traumatic.
12:50 Speaker 00 Detective Scott Day, then a patrol officer, was the first one to arrive at the home. He found Gary's fiance at the front door with blood on her body. She said, he's dead. I know he's dead. Is he dead? Gary's body was found in the corner of the dining room. There were two massive stab wounds to his chest and numerous other stab wounds on his abdomen. In total, Gary was stabbed 24 times.
13:18 Speaker 01 Yeah. How do you recover from 24 stabs?
13:21 Speaker 00 Yeah. And I think a lot of times, most people wouldn't, especially when two of those are directly to the chest, maybe even to the heart. But I do think in a lot of cases, you know, obviously the fiance is going to be looked at. And then here's a situation where the fiance was actually inside the home.
13:41 Speaker 01 Yeah.
13:41 Speaker 00 Is covered with blood. They're going to have to look at her, try to figure out if she could have possibly been involved in it. There was a blood stain on the wall above Gary and a large dent about the size of his body, indicating he crashed into the wall before he collapsed.
14:01 Speaker 01 I'm sure he did, or he got slammed into the wall before he collapsed.
14:05 Speaker 00 Yeah, one or the other. On the floor next to his body was the outline of a bloody bear footprint, which investigators thought was unusual. And I'm, I'm sure they did. If they're thinking this is not Gary's or his fiance.
14:20 Speaker 01 Right.
14:21 Speaker 00 Cause to me, I don't imagine a lot of burglars kind of going in barefoot.
14:29 Speaker 01 Yeah, but this one decided to drop his pants, take his pants off and he was just in his briefs. So maybe.
14:36 Speaker 00 And gloves.
14:37 Speaker 01 And gloves. So maybe he took off his socks and shoes with his pants and his shirt and.
14:41 Speaker 00 Yeah.
14:42 Speaker 01 Said, okay, I'm going to go in just with the, like this.
14:45 Speaker 00 Tidy whities only.
14:47 Speaker 01 Exactly.
14:48 Speaker 00 The police decided to use luminol in the house, which at the time was relatively new. The luminol revealed another bear footprint on the carpet and a trail of footprints leading to the main bedroom. There was evidence of a struggle in the bedroom and blood stains on the sheets. Most likely transfer stains from the perpetrator. Authorities also found a bloody footprint in the bathroom and removed the tile to store as evidence.
15:18 Speaker 00 And the footprints didn't match Gary or his fiance, which confirmed they belonged to the killer.
15:24 Speaker 01 Good piece of evidence.
15:25 Speaker 00 Yeah, great piece of evidence. Now, you gotta find somebody to match it up to.
15:30 Speaker 01 Well, that's true.
15:30 Speaker 00 That's the hard part. Investigators found a cut window screen outside the house, which showed the killer's point of entry. And I don't know about you, Giz, but I feel like we've been talking about cut window screens in a lot of the episodes that we do lately.
15:45 Speaker 01 We have.
15:46 Speaker 00 Which is a scary thing. Now, I know in certain parts of the country, maybe certain times of the year, or just in certain decades, it's more likely than not that some people are going to leave their windows open.
16:03 Speaker 01 Sure. People love fresh air.
16:05 Speaker 00 Yeah, it's great. The problem is, it's also a pretty easy entry point.
16:12 Speaker 01 It really is.
16:13 Speaker 00 For someone who's looking to do something bad. Gary's house had a small wall extending from it with bushes that were higher than the primary bedroom window. Investigators found impressions in the dirt, under the window, suggesting someone was there for an extended period of time, most likely watching the house. Okay, something else that to me is a very scary thing.
16:39 Speaker 01 Definitely creepy.
16:40 Speaker 00 The thought that someone is kind of just camped out, casing you, casing your house.
16:46 Speaker 01 Stalking.
16:47 Speaker 00 Yeah, stalking, that's a good word. Robbery was ruled out as a motive because nothing was taken from the house. The suspect was believed to be a peeping Tom, who was escalating his crimes. And Gary was likely an obstacle in the way of a sexually motivated crime. So, you know, if we kind of take everything we know so far, right? This is a person who is thought to have been kind of watching the house, maybe a peeping Tom, we don't know for how long.
17:21 Speaker 01 Right.
17:22 Speaker 00 You know, this could have gone on for X number of nights. I'm sure he had seen Gary's fiance at some point, maybe developed a fixation with her, or just decided that she was going to be his next target.
17:39 Speaker 01 So either random or stakeout?
17:41 Speaker 00 Yeah, it could have been random. I lean more towards stakeout just because of this ledge thing and the impressions that they found in the dirt, which they they thought meant somebody had been kind of there for an extended period of time. Officers canvassed the neighborhood, but no one saw or heard anything unusual, despite the fact that the bedroom window was open and Gary's fiance screamed for help during the attack.
18:10 Speaker 01 I know sometimes it seems unbelievable that no one would hear that, but you think about that time at night, most people were asleep.
18:19 Speaker 00 Yes.
18:20 Speaker 01 And I know you're a heavy sleeper.
18:22 Speaker 00 Very, very heavy. And we also use like a big fan.
18:26 Speaker 01 Right.
18:27 Speaker 00 As kind of a white noise slash just, you know, I can't sleep in silence. So that's another thing that kind of would probably prohibit me hearing something outside of my own home.
18:42 Speaker 01 It's going to drown out those outside noises.
18:44 Speaker 00 Yeah. And maybe not everybody else had their windows open.
18:48 Speaker 01 That's true.
18:49 Speaker 00 So that would make it maybe a little tougher. And we don't know the layout of the neighborhood. We don't know how close together the houses were, but this is not the same type of situation like, you know, the Kitty Genovese story.
19:04 Speaker 01 Yeah.
19:04 Speaker 00 You know, the one where a bunch of people heard it. Some people saw it. They just didn't call for help. It's not that same scenario. Gary's fiance was taken to the hospital. She was injured and traumatized, but her main concern was for Gary and his family. And that's amazing.
19:23 Speaker 01 It really is.
19:24 Speaker 00 You know, when you think about it, what she went through was horrific and hard to imagine, but she's not thinking about herself. She's thinking about her fiance and her fiance's family. What are they going through?
19:39 Speaker 01 Tells you about her character.
19:41 Speaker 00 Gary's sister Diane Clary recalled, she was so good to us when she was so hurt. And she was beat up, scraped up and had like rug burns all over every joint she had. And she was trying to comfort us. She was really very special. She was just crushed.
20:02 Speaker 01 Well, she lost the love of her life.
20:03 Speaker 00 Yeah. I mean, you know, here's a couple planning to get married, but they hadn't gotten married yet. Think back to that period, that's kind of like for many, the most blissful.
20:18 Speaker 01 Yeah.
20:18 Speaker 00 That you'll ever be. I'm not saying people aren't happy once they get married. But that kind of courtship period before is all smiles and rainbows most of the time.
20:32 Speaker 01 Sure it is. Yeah.
20:33 Speaker 00 According to Detective Scott Day, Gary's fiance was legally blonde without her glasses. And she wasn't wearing them when she was attacked. So her description was vague. She didn't know the suspect, who she described as a white male in his early twenties with blonde hair, a scraggly beard and possibly a mustache. He was between five nine and five 10 and weighed about 170 pounds.
21:00 Speaker 01 I mean, not a bad description though.
21:02 Speaker 00 It's not a bad description, but it's also, I think, one that would fit quite a few individuals.
21:08 Speaker 01 Sure.
21:09 Speaker 00 You know, five nine, five 10, that's a very average height. 170 pounds. That's an average weight. There's nothing really standing out there. Now, long blonde hair, scraggly beard, maybe that rules out quite a few people, but.
21:26 Speaker 01 Yeah, it might help limit it down a little bit. But if I'm that person, knowing that someone's coming after me, maybe I'm shaving my face and cutting my hair.
21:32 Speaker 00 Yeah. Or even dying your hair.
21:35 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah.
21:35 Speaker 00 Which you do anyway.
21:37 Speaker 01 Hey now.
21:38 Speaker 00 Oops. Sorry. I didn't mean to let that one out of the bag.
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24:09 Speaker 00 Investigators found it puzzling that the killer was partially undressed in barefoot, but speculated that he might have removed his bloody clothing after killing Gary. Gary was larger than the killer, but according to Detective Dennis Dill per the Daily Oklahoman, it was almost a classic textbook assault. He hit the vital organs, which caused a lot of blood loss and loss of strength. Larson didn't have a chance.
24:37 Speaker 01 Like he knew what to do. Or got lucky.
24:40 Speaker 00 Yeah, one or the other. On August 19th, 1986, the police released a composite drawing of the suspect. An officer told the public that a man matching the description was seen in the area on the evening of the murder. And I'm sure they went door to door, right? Talking to all the neighbors. Investigators also ran background checks on Gary's friends and business associates. Gary had been married before, but there was no evidence of any issues with his ex-wife. It was said to have been an amicable divorce. Gary's finances were in order and there didn't appear to be any suspicious business dealings.
25:20 Speaker 01 So nothing really jumping out yet?
25:22 Speaker 00 No, they haven't struck on anything that's, that's leading them in a certain direction. One detective told the show salt. This guy wasn't just an angel. We couldn't find anything.
25:33 Speaker 01 So for detectives, this has to be kind of frustrating. Cause you want to try to find some type of lead to get you going.
25:40 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, you don't want your victim to, to be a bad person, but it would be helpful for the investigation if you had something to go on, right? A, a business deal gone bad, something to show a motive on the part of someone. Gary's fiance also had no known enemies. The police looked into all the men she knew as potential suspects, but none of those leads panned out. The entire community was fearful, especially because the police believed the killer lived in or was familiar with the area.
26:16 Speaker 01 Well, I definitely would not leave my windows open after this.
26:20 Speaker 00 No, no, absolutely not. But you know, think about living in a neighborhood and learning that a man was killed in his home. His fiance was raped in the home.
26:32 Speaker 01 Yeah.
26:33 Speaker 00 I mean, I think an entire city is going to be fearful, but you're especially going to be fearful in that neighborhood if police think that the person might live there.
26:44 Speaker 01 Yeah. Cause now you're thinking, is he lingering around?
26:47 Speaker 00 Well, it sounds like he was kind of stalking. So maybe he's going to be stalking another house soon. It's gonna be scary stuff. Edmund experienced another tragedy just four days after the murder. On August 20th, 1986, postal worker Patrick Sherrill entered the Edmund Post Office and shot 20 of his coworkers, killing 14 and injuring six before he fatally shot himself. Detectives were still working on Gary's case, but pretty much all media attention shifted to the mass shooting. And, and this was, this was huge, right? This was absolutely a huge case.
27:26 Speaker 01 I remember when this happened, you weren't working for the post office at this time. You were still probably in school.
27:33 Speaker 00 I don't even think I was in high school yet. I know you were on to your fourth PhD. I was still probably in junior high, but this was a big mass shooting. It also might be kind of the, if not to start, one of the, the main things of that, that whole going postal.
27:54 Speaker 01 Right.
27:54 Speaker 00 Term.
27:55 Speaker 01 I was just thinking the same.
27:57 Speaker 00 Seven months later, the FBI released a profile of the killer, which confirmed police suspicion that the murder was random. Authorities released the profile in hopes of refreshing the public's memory of Gary's case. The FBI concluded per the Daily Oklahoman, the killer is familiar with the neighborhood and may even live in the area. The crime was one of circumstance, probably committed under the influence of alcohol and/or drugs and was not planned. The killer blames women for his own failures and may have had violent confrontations with women before. Those who know him may suspect that he is capable of such a crime. Unless he is financially dependent on another person, he lives in.
28:43 Speaker 00 subsidized or low rent housing Larson's assailant was a single white man who's had difficulty establishing long-term relationships with women and is uncomfortable about this situation. He likely has a short temper and erratic behavior that has caused problems in his relationships, employment, or finances.
29:05 Speaker 01 So he's a woman hater?
29:07 Speaker 00 And he's frustrated with women.
29:08 Speaker 01 Yeah.
29:09 Speaker 00 And that's why he hates women. Now, we've talked about this before, you know, when you think about a profile, a lot of them are very similar. There are reasons for that, but they do tend to be fairly similar.
29:23 Speaker 01 Yeah.
29:23 Speaker 00 Now, we know in this case, it's a white male because we have a surviving witness.
29:28 Speaker 01 Sure.
29:29 Speaker 00 So it's not like they're pulling that one out of a hat.
29:34 Speaker 01 So the FBI saying that they may be living in the area, maybe in some low-income subsidized housing. Obviously, if you're anywhere near that, you are scared.
29:44 Speaker 00 That you have this killer and serial sexual predator living right next to you? Yeah, yeah, you're definitely scared. But also may even live in in that exact area. But the rest of the stuff, you know, difficulties with relationships with women, erratic behavior. I understand why they say all those.
30:08 Speaker 01 Sure.
30:08 Speaker 00 According to the profile, people who knew the killer probably noticed behavioral changes. After reading news stories about the murder, the killer might have become withdrawn and likely leaned on drugs or alcohol to cope with his guilt. He might have left the area temporarily. The man was likely aware that his acquaintances suspected him of the crime and viewed them as possible threats. The FBI also believed the killer possessed tendencies indicative of a serial killer, and authorities feared he would strike again.
30:42 Speaker 01 Well, if he did this one so easily, maybe he would.
30:45 Speaker 00 Yeah, I can understand the rationale behind all of it. You know, obviously, there was something compelling him to commit this crime. And so far, he's gotten away with it. So it's logical, right? That that urge is going to come back again.
31:03 Speaker 01 Yeah.
31:03 Speaker 00 And he's going to do it again.
31:06 Speaker 01 Now, I've never sat around after hearing about some local crime, murder, and thought, oh, that's my one friend. Have you?
31:16 Speaker 00 No, no, I've never had a thought that, oh, well, you know, maybe it could be so and so.
31:23 Speaker 01 Right.
31:24 Speaker 00 Never once crossed my mind.
31:26 Speaker 01 That's reassuring.
31:27 Speaker 00 According to a reporter from the Daily Oklahoman, the FBI reached out to the paper and asked them to put out stories profiling the killer and making statements that authorities hoped would enrage him and get him to show himself. And, you know, this is interesting, right? Using the media, a lot of the times, the media is trying to get information from the authorities that the authorities don't want to give up. Here you have, as we've seen before.
31:56 Speaker 01 Right.
31:57 Speaker 00 In real life, and especially in movies, the authorities using the media to kind of draw out the killer.
32:05 Speaker 01 Sometimes that partnership's needed.
32:07 Speaker 00 It reminds me a little bit of the Hannibal Lecter one, the Red Dragon one.
32:12 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah.
32:13 Speaker 00 They use Philip Seymour Hoffman's character. You know, he's like this journalist for a tabloid. And they have him print a bunch of stories that are actually made up, but are meant to enrage the killer. They do, because he ends up killing Philip Seymour Hoffman.
32:33 Speaker 01 Yeah.
32:34 Speaker 00 Just over three years later, on August 29th, 1989, 25-year-old John Brent Johnson was charged with first-degree murder, first-degree rape, and first-degree burglary in connection with the case. Police believe Johnson was the one who broke into the home, stabbed Gary to death, and raped his fiance because they surprised him during a burglary. So this is kind of a little bit of a different take on the crime, right? There was kind of a thought that maybe this was a sexual predator casing the house, only killed Gary because Gary was in his way of getting to his actual intended victim.
33:19 Speaker 00 Now we have the thought that maybe this was a burglary.
33:23 Speaker 01 Gone wrong.
33:24 Speaker 00 Gone wrong. Johnson had a criminal record. In November 1987, he pled guilty to grand larceny, two burglaries, and possession of a stolen vehicle. He was sentenced to six years, but was released on June 5th, 1989. Johnson came under suspicion when the police came to his workplace to question him about a July 1989 robbery. He fled out of a back door and had not been seen since. Detective Dill believed Johnson's 1987 mugshot looked similar to the composite sketch of the suspect in the Larson case. The police wanted to compare the crime scene evidence, mainly the bloody footprint, to
34:08 Speaker 00 Johnson in hopes of finding a match. But Johnson's on the run, right? And he was on the run for a number of weeks. In September, it was announced that he would be featured on America's Most Wanted. And you and I talk about America's Most Wanted a lot. To me, if you were a criminal back when that show aired, hearing an announcement that they were going to profile you would probably cause you to start shaking in your booties.
34:39 Speaker 01 For sure. To the point, you're probably like, okay, time for me to move on from where Matt right now.
34:43 Speaker 00 Yeah, I gotta change up my look. I gotta, you know, get to a different country. That show was watched by a lot of people and a lot of people were caught and or turned in, you know, by being profiled on that show.
34:59 Speaker 01 Yeah, you didn't want to be part of that last segment where they go, update.
35:02 Speaker 00 We got so and so. On September 23rd, 1989, Johnson turned himself in with his attorney before the episode could air. So obviously he must have found out that he was going to be profiled. On December 22nd, 1989, Gary's fiance testified against Johnson at his preliminary hearing and identified him as the man who raped her. She testified that about 20 minutes after she and Gary went to sleep, they heard a noise, Gary got up to investigate and she heard him scream. She said it was a gut scream from deep inside. He was in pain, dire pain.
35:45 Speaker 01 That'd be tough retelling that story.
35:48 Speaker 00 Well, and just reliving that scream, that's probably not going away. She testified that the intruder startled her in the bedroom. She struggled against him and screamed loudly, hoping to attract help. She later tried to reason with him and testified per the Daily Oklahoman, "I felt that the only way I was going to live through it was to try to reason with him. I told him I was a virgin and Gary and I were going to get married and have a family. I told him he didn't really want to do that. I didn't know at that time that Gary was already dead." She said he tried to suffocate her several times, saying at
36:28 Speaker 00 one point that she started saying the 23rd song because I really thought I was going to die.
36:35 Speaker 01 I'm sure she did.
36:36 Speaker 00 This is a, you know, heart wrenching testimony. John Johnson told the Oklahoman after the hearing, I'm innocent. It's awful, but I didn't have anything to do with it. The preliminary hearing continued in January 1990. Johnson's friend Leslie Carey testified that Johnson came home on August 16th, 1986, and admitted to killing someone in Edmond during a burglary. Carey testified, he said he'd done a burglary and he thinks he did an old boy. He thinks he stabbed him to death. Okay, I don't know who calls a man an old boy, but.
37:15 Speaker 01 Yeah, and I don't know how you remain a friend with somebody like that.
37:18 Speaker 00 Well, they could have been ex friends by this point. I don't know, it just said, you know, Johnson's friend, maybe one time friend. But, you know, this is damning stuff, right? You have the victim identifying you. You have a friend coming forward and testifying that you admitted to killing someone during a burglary in Edmond. Hey, things are not looking good for this Johnson guy.
37:44 Speaker 01 Not at all.
37:45 Speaker 00 Johnson and Carey lived together and committed burglaries together in the late eighties. At the time of the hearing, Carey was serving 10 years for the July 1989 burglary. He said he made no deals in exchange for his testimony. Well, maybe that answers your question, Gibbs. You, maybe they were friends.
38:05 Speaker 01 Sure.
38:06 Speaker 00 But as we often see, you know, once somebody in the friendship or the partnership is pinched and they're doing time, what are they willing to say to maybe get a little leniency? Now, he's saying he didn't get any deals, but we don't know.
38:25 Speaker 01 Maybe he had a higher standard. I just rob, I don't do anything more than that.
38:29 Speaker 00 Johnson left the trailer around 10:00 PM on August 15th and returned around six or seven AM on the 16th with blood on his hands and clothing. At first, he claimed the blood was from a cut, but then he admitted he killed someone. Again, this is all testimony, right? From Leslie Carey. The court heard that Johnson was charged with murder after Gary's fiance picked him out of a photo lineup. His defense attorney argued she identified him because the police methods were improperly suggested. And we don't know whether or not they were. What I will say is if they were, it wouldn't be the first time.
39:11 Speaker 01 Exactly.
39:12 Speaker 00 I mean, it's been proven in many different cases that, you know, maybe they didn't have as many different photos as they should have. Maybe the person was holding his finger on the one that they wanted the victim to select. There's been all kinds of strange things that have happened throughout the years.
39:34 Speaker 01 Can't really say it's unbiased.
39:36 Speaker 00 No, you hope it is, but it hasn't always been, right? That's the thing. Now, I do believe these are outliers, especially today, but I'm not going to say that it still doesn't happen today. But one thing I do want to talk about is, you know, Gary's fiance being called legally blonde and knowing that she wasn't wearing her glasses that night. To me, that's going to make identification pretty tough.
40:04 Speaker 01 Yeah.
40:05 Speaker 00 And it would give some ammunition, you would think, to a defense attorney to explore that.
40:09 Speaker 01 Some good ammunition.
40:11 Speaker 00 On February 23rd, 1990, a judge ordered Johnson to stay in trial. Prosecutors intended on seeking the death penalty. Two months later, on April 20th, Johnson was eliminated as a suspect by tests that determined his hair was not consistent with pubic hairs left at the scene by the rapist. And his footprint didn't match the one found inside the home. His blood type was also different from the rapist. Okay. So. I mean, let's just think about this. Now, this guy's not a free man because he's still going to have to serve a seven-year sentence for that burglary, but he was facing death.
40:54 Speaker 01 Sure he was.
40:55 Speaker 00 And a murder conviction.
40:58 Speaker 01 So he's feeling pretty good at this point.
40:59 Speaker 00 Yeah, I'll do my seven years because I actually did that, right? This other stuff I didn't do. But it's a scary thought that someone could be charged and even convicted for murder.
41:14 Speaker 01 Sure.
41:14 Speaker 00 And not have committed the murder.
41:17 Speaker 01 Well, there's a lot of people sitting out there in that situation right now.
41:22 Speaker 00 Well, we don't know how many. In a phone interview with the Daily Oklahoman, Johnson said, "I just don't know how to explain what I went through. It was a terrible ordeal. I just didn't think something like this could happen to somebody. I never thought something like that could happen to me especially. I'm going to live differently. I haven't been the best guy in the world. You know, I have done wrong, but I'd never do anything like that. I'm just going to make the best of it and try to get on with my life and try to look past this. I really feel that's all I can do. The system is terrible. It's as crooked as can be."
41:59 Speaker 01 Well, it sounds like he's going to make a good decision and just get out of that business altogether.
42:03 Speaker 00 Yeah. Now, he's making a distinction between the crimes that he committed in this one, and there is a distinction.
42:11 Speaker 01 Sure there is.
42:12 Speaker 00 I'm not saying burglary is is good, but it's a far cry from murder and rape.
42:18 Speaker 01 But it throws you into a certain type of pool.
42:21 Speaker 00 Well, let's face it, he most likely would have never got caught up in this investigation had he not committed the burglary.
42:31 Speaker 01 Exactly.
42:32 Speaker 00 Now, that doesn't make what, you know, happened to him okay, but.
42:40 Speaker 00 The case went cold once again, but it stuck with the Edmond police, especially Detective Scott Day. On the night of April 5th, 2005, Detective Day went to investigate a report of a peeping Tom at a home in Edmond. Homeowner Scott Eagleson said there had been a couple of instances where his kids saw someone outside or someone looking through the window. So he set up a security system. His motion detector went off that evening. And when he went outside, he found a man dressed all in black, lying on the ground. He was barefoot. Eagleson yelled at him and the man got up and began walking away.
43:21 Speaker 00 Eagleson chased after him, tackled him, and subdued him until the police arrived.
43:27 Speaker 01 He wasn't gonna stop it, just letting the guy go away, was he?
43:30 Speaker 00 No, and this sounds like something honestly that you would do. You would go full Jason Bourne on this guy and, you know, chase him down, tackle him.
43:40 Speaker 01 Would have to.
43:41 Speaker 00 Tie him up in a pretzel knot and just sit on him until the police got there.
43:45 Speaker 01 Hulk tie him right up?
43:46 Speaker 00 But let's face it, this guy's got kids, right? So he may have, you know, had a significant other as well. I don't know, he didn't say that, but he's got a family, so he's gotta be worried about a guy standing outside of his home dressed all in black. Are you just gonna let that guy walk away?
44:05 Speaker 01 No. If you're not Johnny Cash, you're going down.
44:09 Speaker 00 Cause that's the only, that's the only one that should be wearing all black?
44:12 Speaker 01 That's right.
44:16 Speaker 00 The man was soon identified as 38-year-old Jonathan Scott Graham. Officers went to Graham's address and spoke to his father, who agreed to let them search the residence. Officers found a computer and were granted permission to search it. Investigators found photos taken through a window screen, looking into a bathroom of a home. There were also photos of nude people. Okay. Pretty easy to see that this is some kind of peeping Tom at the very least.
44:47 Speaker 01 And creepy.
44:48 Speaker 00 Oh, very creepy. The computer was taken to the police department for a more thorough search. Now Graham was initially arrested on a misdemeanor peeping Tom charge. Detective Scott Day started working the case the next day and read the report with the homeowner's statement that he was suspicious Graham had been trying to take pictures through the window. To charge Graham with a felony, the police had to prove he was taking photos of the house. He was caught peeping into. So apparently misdemeanor to look in or peep.
45:23 Speaker 01 Right.
45:24 Speaker 00 But felony to take a picture into is what I'm getting from that statement.
45:29 Speaker 01 Same here. Didn't we talk about at one point, maybe I'm just not remembering. It's been a long time.
45:36 Speaker 00 Well, that would be shocking.
45:37 Speaker 01 My memory? Yeah. How peeping Tom came to be?
45:42 Speaker 00 How the word peep or the term peeping Tom? No, I don't remember. We probably did, but I don't remember it now.
45:47 Speaker 01 Yeah.
45:48 Speaker 00 But it's good podcast, though.
45:50 Speaker 01 It is. Yeah, it's good.
45:54 Speaker 00 Detective Day studied the Eagleson's home so he could recognize it if it showed up in photos from Graham's computer. They got an eerie feeling and realized that the house was just one block away from the Larson crime scene. So Detective Day started looking back at the Larson case file and found that Graham fit the suspect profile. He was 20 years old at the time of the murder and lived with his parents a block from the crime scene. He moved out of town soon after the attack, but apparently was still living with his parents at the age of 38, it sounds like.
46:32 Speaker 01 Some people do that.
46:33 Speaker 00 Some do.
46:34 Speaker 01 In the basement.
46:36 Speaker 00 With their computer.
46:37 Speaker 01 With their computer, yelling at their mom for more lasagna.
46:40 Speaker 00 A background check showed that Graham was charged in Waco, Texas for unlawfully carrying a weapon. I didn't even know you could be charged in Texas for unlawfully carrying a weapon. I just assumed it was completely lawful for everyone to carry in Texas.
46:56 Speaker 01 That's what I thought so too.
46:57 Speaker 00 Probably not back then. I'm pretty sure it is today, though. Heck, it's lawful here in Ohio now for everyone to carry. On June 16th, 2000, he was caught peeping into someone's house. The police stopped him in the neighborhood. He was carrying a camera and was arrested. When the police searched his car, they found a bag that contained black clothing, gloves, duct tape, sex toys, lubricant, condoms, knives, swords, handcuffs, lockpicking tools and lighter fluid.
47:34 Speaker 01 What the heck?
47:35 Speaker 00 Okay, I mean, people carry a lot of different things in their vehicle.
47:39 Speaker 01 Sure.
47:40 Speaker 00 This is a strange menagerie of things that you're going to have to explain.
47:46 Speaker 01 I mean, I remember being in your truck once and I opened up that one bag and I quickly closed it because I was like, I don't even want to see what I'm seeing at this point, but this is another level.
47:56 Speaker 00 This is, I mean, it's like a kit for doing all kinds of bad things. Breaking and entering, murder, sexual assault.
48:08 Speaker 01 I mean, who carries swords?
48:10 Speaker 00 Zorro?
48:11 Speaker 01 Zorro?
48:12 Speaker 00 No, today? I don't know.
48:14 Speaker 01 Yeah.
48:14 Speaker 00 In recent years, I don't know. Graham admitted he was a voyeur and had been struggling for years. However, he said the bag was for fantasy and not reality, per the Oklahomian. This is my fantasy bag with black clothing, duct tape, sex toys, knives, swords, you know, all that.
48:37 Speaker 01 Well, clearly, well, clearly he has to come up with something.
48:40 Speaker 00 Yeah, what are you gonna say?
48:41 Speaker 01 Yeah.
48:42 Speaker 00 But even if it's your fantasy, you got some, you got some strange fantasies.
48:47 Speaker 01 Yeah, a little bizarre.
48:49 Speaker 00 When Detective Day read that Graham was also barefoot at the time of his 2000 arrest, he felt strongly that he was involved in the Larson murder. And again, that is such a strange element, right? You're dressed all in black, but yet you're barefoot. Again, I don't know how many burglars go barefoot.
49:12 Speaker 01 You can move quieter.
49:14 Speaker 00 Oh, there's no doubt about it. I just don't know how many people do it. But when you have this kind of peeping tom incident very close to a murder scene.
49:27 Speaker 01 Yeah.
49:28 Speaker 00 That happened years prior where the perpetrator was also barefoot. It's pretty hard to discount.
49:35 Speaker 01 It really is.
49:36 Speaker 00 Detective Day was working on a search warrant to get Graham's footprint. When he learned Graham was released on bail, investigators were worried he would leave town. I think I'd be worried too. I mean, if this guy was the killer slash rapist, he has to know it's probably a matter of time before they figure out that he did that.
49:58 Speaker 01 Time to get out of Dodge.
49:59 Speaker 00 Yeah. They focused on analyzing the computer as quickly as they could to get more serious charges filed. And that's the problem, right? He's released on bail because right now he's not charged with the serious crime.
50:14 Speaker 01 Yeah. So we got to find something so we can lock him down for a while.
50:17 Speaker 00 A detective found over 250 files of child pornography and voyeuristic images Graham downloaded online. Now, these weren't real peeping tom images, but they were made to look that way. What it did was it showed that his downloads showed he had an obsession with voyeurism.
50:39 Speaker 01 Maybe enough to do something.
50:41 Speaker 00 He was rearrested on felony peeping tom charges, 15 counts of possession of child pornography, and two counts of taking clandestine photographs. He was held without bond.
50:55 Speaker 01 Clandestine?
50:57 Speaker 00 Yeah. I don't know. You usually hear that word used in like special ops type stuff.
51:02 Speaker 01 You do.
51:03 Speaker 00 Graham's footprint was taken and sent to the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation for comparison to the 1986 footprint from the crime scene. On April 28, 2004, investigators determined the prints matched. Two days later, Jonathan Graham was charged with first degree murder for the death of Gary Larson. DNA testing in late May also linked him to the crime scene. Unfortunately, Graham could only be charged with murder because the statute of limitations had expired for rape charges.
51:39 Speaker 01 And that is bizarre to me.
51:41 Speaker 00 It is, and that has been, you know, changed in a lot of jurisdictions. We know there's no statute of limitations on murder. The statute of limitations on rape and other sexual crimes in the past has been very short.
52:00 Speaker 01 Sure.
52:01 Speaker 00 I think in a lot of places, it's been lengthened dramatically.
52:06 Speaker 01 I don't think you should ever get a pass on it.
52:08 Speaker 00 No, I don't think so either. Because of all the technology and everything, you know, if you committed a sexual crime 20, 30 years ago, and they just figure it out today, I still think you should have to pay for that.
52:23 Speaker 01 You should.
52:24 Speaker 00 Graham's trial was delayed later that year. Gary Larson's family and his former fiancee urged the prosecution to consider a plea deal. Gary's former fiancee didn't want to go through the trauma of a trial or the lengthy appeals process of a death penalty case. They all just wanted Graham off the streets so that he couldn't hurt anyone else. And I think that's a decision that You know, a lot of victims' families have to make.
52:52 Speaker 01 Sure.
52:53 Speaker 00 And a lot of victims themselves have to make.
52:55 Speaker 01 I think you have to respect it, too.
52:57 Speaker 00 Yeah, you got to weigh the pros and the cons. You may be in favor of the death penalty, you may not be. You know, there are some downsides of a death penalty conviction. We all know how many different appeals they get, you know, as part of the process. And rightfully so, before you're going to put somebody to death. It also takes a very long time because of those appeals.
53:24 Speaker 01 And to think that his fiance and his family, I don't want to say they've gotten over it.
53:31 Speaker 00 But a lot of time is packed.
53:32 Speaker 01 Yeah. And to have to relive all that again.
53:35 Speaker 00 Well, and if you're her, if you're the fiance, you're going to have to relive it in front of a bunch of strangers. And friends and family too. So that's tough. That's not easy for anybody. On January 5th, 2005, Jonathan Graham received three consecutive life sentences without parole after pleading guilty to first degree murder, first degree rape, and first degree burglary. The last two charges were previously ruled past the statute of limitations, but were added as part of the plea agreement. And that might have gone into their thinking as well.
54:14 Speaker 01 Yeah.
54:15 Speaker 00 You know, I want him to pay for the rape and the burglary. Prosecutors agreed not to seek the death penalty. If Graham would plead guilty to all charges against him, including taking clandestine photos and possessing child pornography. And not to say that those aren't important charges, because they are. Especially the child pornography is horrible.
54:38 Speaker 01 Sure it is.
54:39 Speaker 00 But I think, you know, if you're Graham, you're already facing three life sentences. I mean, what, taking those charges or pleading to those charges, what's that, what's that going to do?
54:50 Speaker 01 Not going to change anything.
54:51 Speaker 00 No. And they had the evidence to prove it anyway. Graham claimed he did not commit any additional crimes. But if crimes he didn't confess come to light, the state will consider the agreement void and seek the death pill. Oh, boy, that would be an interesting scenario. Hey, we just linked you through DNA to this other case. Now your three life sentences are gone and we're going after you.
55:21 Speaker 01 Yeah, capital murder.
55:23 Speaker 00 Graham agreed to a recorded interview as part of the agreement. Parts of this interview were presented in the solved episode covering this case. Graham was asked to explain what happened on the night of August 16th, 1986. He said, I just went out to Pete and went out to a different street. I usually don't leave my street and went to that street and was just opportunistic. I just was wandering around, seeing what windows I could look into. And that light just happened to be on and I looked into the window and she didn't have any clothes on. And she was coming out of the bathroom, I assumed going to bed. He claimed he never saw Gary Larson.
56:05 Speaker 00 He left and returned to the house armed with a knife. He saw that the lights were off and he decided he was going to rape the woman he saw earlier that night. He went through one of the front windows and wandered around the house for a while in the dark. He bumped into Gary coming down the hallway and was surprised. He said, out of excitement, fear, shock. I don't remember much of the incident other than I pushed him against one of the wall. And until I was told last year, I didn't know how many times I had stabbed him because I, you know, was so surprised. Graham was scared and didn't know what to do. The woman was screaming, so he went down the hall and found her in the bathroom.
56:50 Speaker 00 He said, I think I was just trying to knock her unconscious and then decided that I couldn't do it without hurting her. So I figured if I could just tie her up. I don't remember too much about it, other than she didn't want me to hurt her. And I pretty much decided that not, well.
57:08 Speaker 00 I didn't want to at a certain point. He acknowledged that he raped the woman saying, because that's what I came for initially. He was asked what he liked about committing these types of crimes. And he said, control, doing whatever I want to do. And Gibbs, you've, you've heard that said about rape so many times.
57:31 Speaker 01 Sure, yeah.
57:32 Speaker 00 That it's about control. And here you have a guy actually admitting it.
57:38 Speaker 01 Makes him feel powerful.
57:40 Speaker 00 But I also thought it was interesting that, you know, he's claiming not to know that Gary was, was in the house. And I think it's kind of easy to believe that, you know, most opportunistic rapists, I don't believe would go into a house knowing that they're going to have to fight a man. Most of them would pick a target that's much more vulnerable. I'll use that word because I think that's how they think. So I believe that he thought this woman was alone in the home.
58:17 Speaker 01 I believe that too.
58:18 Speaker 00 And was surprised when he encountered Gary in the hallway. Now, he did what he did. He stabbed him, you know, 20 some times and killed him.
58:28 Speaker 01 But just think how his thought process worked, right? This is what I'm gonna do. I was peeping in this home. And just for a second, think about how he said he would go up and down his street. If you were one of his neighbors, you know, at some point, he peeped in your home.
58:46 Speaker 00 Oh, absolutely. He even said it, right? I normally stayed on my street. Normally meant what? How often did you go out nightly? So you're into peeping into everybody's homes? And but, you know, I think what it does show, and it's, and it's kind of been shown, right? Throughout time is that a lot of these people start with peeping. And I'm not saying peeping is harmless at all. It's terrible.
59:12 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
59:13 Speaker 00 But it then progresses to other things. You know, we've heard of, you know, the next thing is they're stealing underwear off the clothesline, or they're, they're slipping into people's houses and stealing underwear, or whatever that is. And then it progresses to some type of sexual assault and may ultimately progress to murder.
59:37 Speaker 01 But he just made it sound so.
59:39 Speaker 00 Casual?
59:40 Speaker 01 Yeah.
59:40 Speaker 00 Yeah. Yeah, he did. Jonathan Scott Graham will spend the rest of his life in prison. So Gibbs, we wrapped this one up. Yeah, I think when you look at a guy like Jonathan Graham, he obviously had a pattern of behavior, some of which we, we just touched on. I think what it shows is that he was a violent sexual predator who was in all types of different ways, a danger to the community. Now, he claimed he didn't commit any additional murders or sexual assaults after 1986, but you really have to question that. I know Gary Larson's family has come out and said they don't believe that's true.
1:00:23 Speaker 01 I can't believe that's true either.
1:00:25 Speaker 00 No, I mean, here's a guy who's, you know, out casing his street and neighborhood every night, peeping into windows. He commits this murder and sexual assault, but that's the only thing he ever does?
1:00:39 Speaker 01 Yeah, I don't think that scared him to not do it anymore.
1:00:42 Speaker 00 No, because he didn't get caught for many, many years. So it's not like that urge is going to go away. So it's hard for me to believe that he doesn't have a lot of other crimes under his belt. And I don't know if he ever murdered anyone again. Maybe he was more careful, but to say that, or to think that he didn't commit any more sexual crimes, that's very hard to believe.
1:01:09 Speaker 01 Yeah, I don't think it was a one and done thing.
1:01:12 Speaker 00 And Larson's family has even come out and said they don't think that, you know, he would commit rape and murder just one time and, and never do it again. And I'm, I'm kind of in that line of thinking too. As of 2025, Graham has not been linked to additional sexual assaults or murders. But again, that doesn't mean he didn't commit them. It's, it's hard to link those.
1:01:35 Speaker 01 Sure.
1:01:36 Speaker 00 I think for me, the, the last thing that I want to talk about is Gary's fiance and Brent Johnson. You know, she had to have had some remorse at some point for picking him out of a lineup. Now, maybe she was coerced or kind of led that way by the police. I don't know.
1:01:58 Speaker 01 But she was also legally blind and didn't have her glasses on.
1:02:01 Speaker 00 Right. It could have been an honest mistake, but still you, you, you would have to have some remorse and, and finding out that you picked the wrong person. And obviously, you know, this Johnson guy, he, there's no doubt his life was altered.
1:02:17 Speaker 01 For sure.
1:02:18 Speaker 00 Now, he did spend time for burglary, so he wasn't a saint, but as far as we know, he wasn't a murderer and rapist either.
1:02:26 Speaker 01 It sounds like maybe this scared him straight. Like, I'm not going to do anything wrong ever again after this.
1:02:31 Speaker 00 Well, that's what, that's what prison is supposed to do.
1:02:34 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:02:35 Speaker 00 Right? It doesn't work for everyone, but it's supposed to be, you know, rehabilitation. You do your time, you get out, you, you become a productive member of society.
1:02:47 Speaker 01 To be accused of murder, that's going to probably change the way you do things.
1:02:51 Speaker 00 And face the death penalty?
1:02:52 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:02:52 Speaker 00 Yeah, I think it adds an extra scared straight element to it.
1:02:57 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:02:57 Speaker 00 For sure.
1:02:58 Speaker 01 But talking about the fiance though, what an amazing woman, really, to go through what she went through to survive such a horrific ordeal.
1:03:10 Speaker 00 Well, and then, you know, the, just think about the 20 years after. This Johnson guy is thought to be the person.
1:03:18 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:03:19 Speaker 00 Then they, they link Graham to it. So she's got to go through all of this and relive it. And so does Gary's family and. Yeah, I mean, you, you have to say that she was a, a pretty strong woman, just in the fact that, you know, she was able to compose herself as that horrific ordeal was going on and kind of try to talk him into not hurting her and, and it did work. You know, he tied her up and he left her in the closet. And I think you said she was trying to get him to see her as a human being. And maybe what she did worked. And maybe that's the reason she lived.
1:04:02 Speaker 01 Sure.
1:04:03 Speaker 00 But that's it for our episode on Jonathan Scott Graham. We got a voicemail. You want to hear it?
1:04:08 Speaker 01 Let's hear it.
1:04:09 Speaker 02 Hi, this is Andrew. I've been listening to you guys for quite a few years. Team Gibby, you guys are awesome. I gotta say, was listening to the Johnny Lewis episode. Gibby was right. Drake, the rapper, was on a Nickelodeon show, just not Drake and Josh. It was a Canadian show. And he was also right about Katy Perry singing a tiger song. I think it's called Roar. And you were wrong. It's not called Paper Bag. It's called Fireworks. As a 36 year old man, I probably shouldn't tell this stuff, but I do. You guys are awesome. Keep your own time ticking. Thanks for what you do.
1:04:50 Speaker 00 All right. Love the voicemail. I love how I'm wrong, but you're right, even though none of that was right.
1:04:57 Speaker 01 In your head.
1:04:58 Speaker 00 Drake was not on, was not Drake of Drake and Josh. He was on another show, and I've got tons of emails and voicemails about this. He, I guess he was on Degrassi, which I've never seen. I don't remember my kids watching that one. But apparently he was on that. And then, so Katy Perry sings a song called Roar. And you said it was Eye of the Tiger, but because the word tiger is in it, you're correct.
1:05:24 Speaker 01 I am correct. Yes.
1:05:26 Speaker 00 People love you so much. They will find a way to defend you.
1:05:30 Speaker 01 Good old, good old Drake, man. I remember, you know, back in the day when he worked at Shopper's Drug Mart up in Canada. Then he went on to do the Degrassi, you know, and then Katie came along and like, let's do a tiger song, Roar.
1:05:45 Speaker 00 Oh, I just, I'm gonna spend a week in your mind. I don't know. That's a long time.
1:05:50 Speaker 01 That's a trip, man.
1:05:51 Speaker 00 I don't know if I can handle it.
1:05:54 Speaker 00 But we appreciate the voicemail very much. All right, buddy. So we had no mailbag this week, so that is it for another episode of True Crime All The Time. So for Mike.
1:06:03 Speaker 01 And Gibby.
1:06:04 Speaker 00 Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.
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