Denise Huber

Denise Huber was abducted in the early morning hours of June 3rd, 1991, after her car broke down on the side of the freeway. Denise’s disappearance was one of the most sensational cases in Orange County, California. Three years later, her body was found under shocking circumstances. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the disappearance and murder of Denise Huber. Denise’s case was featured on America’s Most Wanted and Inside Edition, but the case went cold. On July 13th, 1994, the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office responded to a call about a possible stolen truck parked outside 37-year-old John Famalaro’s home in Dewey, Arizona. This call began the investigation into Famalaro that ultimately led to him being charged with Denise's murder. You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetime Visit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation information An Emash Digital production See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Every good true crime story has a twist. DraftKings Casino has a spin. Flex spins let you spend your way. Didn't see that coming? That's because flex spins are exclusive to DraftKings. New casino players play $5 and get 1,000 total flex spins, including 100 lightning link spins. Unlock 50 spins a day at varying values for your first 20 days. You decide where the story goes next. Download the DraftKings Casino app, sign up with code TCAT, and spend your way. The crown is yours. In partnership with DraftKings Casino. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER. In Connecticut, help is available for problem gambling. Call 888-789-7777. Or visit ccpg.org.

• 0:45Speaker 00

  Please play responsibly. 21+, physically present in Connecticut, Michigan, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and West Virginia only. Void in Canada. Eligibility restrictions apply. Non-withdrawable spins issued at 50 spins per day for 20 days. Valid for select games only and expire each day after 24 hours. Spin values vary. See terms at casino.draftkings.com/promos. Ends November 22, 2026. At 11:59 PM Eastern Time.

• 1:48Speaker 00

  Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode 524 of the True Crime All the Time Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson, and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?

• 1:58Speaker 01

  I'm doing OK. How about you?

• 1:59Speaker 00

  I'm doing great.

• 2:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01Speaker 00

  Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Kerry Martins.

• 2:04Speaker 01

  Like Kerry liked that famous song that was written for her. Did you know that?

• 2:08Speaker 00

  I did not know that.

• 2:08Speaker 01

  You know the song I'm talking about?

• 2:09Speaker 00

  I do not.

• 2:10Speaker 01

  The 80s, Kerry.

• 2:12Speaker 00

  Ela San or however you say it. I don't even know if that's the word, but I do remember that song. I'm not sure I ever really knew how to pronounce the whatever they were saying. We had Gina R.

• 2:24Speaker 01

  What's going on, Gina?

• 2:25Speaker 00

  Becky Ross.

• 2:26Speaker 01

  Ross in the house.

• 2:27Speaker 00

  Deanna.

• 2:28Speaker 01

  Just good old Deanna.

• 2:30Speaker 00

  Just good old.

• 2:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:31Speaker 00

  Tina Bishop jumped out at her highest level.

• 2:33Speaker 01

  What's up, Bishop?

• 2:34Speaker 00

  Angela Gunderson.

• 2:36Speaker 01

  Hey, I like that Gunderson. It sounds like, ugh.

• 2:40Speaker 00

  OK, whatever that means.

• 2:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:42Speaker 00

  And last but not least, Dee.

• 2:44Speaker 01

  Well, we already talked about Dee on Patreon.

• 2:46Speaker 00

  We did. And if we go back into the vault. This week, we selected Fluffel.

• 2:52Speaker 01

  Fluffel.

• 2:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's fun to say.

• 2:54Speaker 01

  Everybody needs some Fluffel.

• 2:55Speaker 00

  Sure. We also had a great PayPal donation from Deanna Gentry.

• 3:00Speaker 01

  And Deanna, thank you so much.

• 3:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, thank you. So we have an episode out right now on True Crime All the Time Unsolved, where we're talking about the disappearance of eight-year-old Zachary Bernhardt. He went missing nearly 26 years ago on September 11, 2000. Zachary has never been found. And his case is the longest-running Amber Alert in the state of Florida.

• 3:24Speaker 01

  And that's not a record you want to have.

• 3:26Speaker 00

  No, it's not, unfortunately. But tune in for that one. Check it out. And then on next Thursday's TCAT, we're talking about Samuel Hoshstetler, an Amish teenager who was recently sentenced to 25 years to life for aggravated murder. This is a fascinating case. Prosecutors argued that Hoshstetler killed Rosanna Kinzinger during a non-consensual sexual encounter, while the defense argued that her death was accidental.

• 3:56Speaker 01

  And I had to use some of my Pennsylvania Dutch when we researched this.

• 4:00Speaker 00

  Sure, just to figure out what was going on. But, you know, I said it was fascinating. Number one, because, you know, the people involved are Amish, and that's a different way of life than, you know, what most of us are used to. But it also comes into play during the legal proceedings. You know, what did this guy understand in the form of his Miranda rights and all of those different things? All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All the Time?

• 4:29Speaker 01

  I'm ready.

• 4:29Speaker 00

  We're talking about Denise Huber. Denise Huber was abducted in the early morning hours of June 3, 1991, after her car broke down on the side of the freeway. Denise's disappearance was one of the most sensational cases in Orange County, California. Three years later, her body was found under shocking circumstances. So June 3, 1991 was right about the time I was graduating from high school.

• 5:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, you were, especially a young pup back then.

• 5:03Speaker 00

  And just a head full of gorgeous hair.

• 5:06Speaker 01

  Yes, I see the pictures. It was actually pretty nice.

• 5:09Speaker 00

  It was. It was glorious. Denise Huber was a 23-year-old waitress and a recent graduate of the University of California at Irvine. Denise graduated in 1990 with a degree in social sciences. At the time of her death, she was living with her parents in Newport Beach, California.

• 5:29Speaker 01

  Nice area.

• 5:30Speaker 00

  Very nice. The job market was tight, so Denise worked as a waitress at the Cannery Restaurant in Newport Beach and had a job as a cashier at Broadway in the Fashion Island shopping mall.

• 5:43Speaker 01

  Well, you're going to do what you have to to make ends meet until the job market finally turns around, and maybe you can get something in what you studied.

• 5:50Speaker 00

  Or something that pays a little bit more, so you don't have to have two jobs. But you're right, you got to make ends meet. So if you have to, maybe you got two jobs, and some people have to do that for sure. Denise was dating a man named Steve Horx, whom she met at the Old Spaghetti Factory in Newport Beach. She was a waitress, and he was a bartender.

• 6:13Speaker 01

  The Old Spaghetti Factory. I've ate at one of those, or a couple of them, actually. They're franchised out. We also have the Spaghetti Warehouse here, growing up, but the Old Spaghetti Warehouse, I mean, the Old Spaghetti Factory, it was all right.

• 6:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't, I don't think I've eaten there.

• 6:29Speaker 01

  It's not your thing. You like seafood and all that other nasty stuff.

• 6:34Speaker 00

  I like Italian, too. But I don't like to buy spaghetti at a restaurant.

• 6:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:39Speaker 00

  I don't know why. It's, if it's something I can make at home, I don't like to order it and pay for it.

• 6:45Speaker 01

  Well, that makes sense, though.

• 6:46Speaker 00

  Yeah. Plus, I don't like a lot of spaghetti at restaurants. I just don't like the taste of it.

• 6:51Speaker 01

  You're kind of picky.

• 6:52Speaker 00

  I am. In the early morning hours of June 3, 1991, Denise and a friend left a Morrissey concert at the Great Western Forum in Inglewood, California.

• 7:04Speaker 01

  Wow, he was a big, big timer back then.

• 7:07Speaker 00

  Yeah. And, you know, the Great Western Forum, what an amazing venue, right? That's where the Lakers played. So many championships won there.

• 7:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:18Speaker 00

  And, you know, concerts, all kinds of other stuff. Denise's boyfriend, Steve, had two free tickets to the concert. He gave one to Denise, but he couldn't attend because he had to work. He gave the other ticket to his friend, Robert Calvert. Steve got off work early that night, but decided not to attend the concert because he was trying to save money. After Denise and Robert left the concert, they went to the El Paso Cantina in Long Beach. Denise dropped Robert off at his house in Huntington Beach around 2:00 AM and then headed home. So there's a couple of things here for me. Sounds like a pretty good night out. Then you have Steve, who, you know, seems like a good guy. He's got a couple of tickets.

• 8:03Speaker 00

  He gives one to his girlfriend.

• 8:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:05Speaker 00

  Gives another to his friend, whom he must have trusted to go with his girlfriend.

• 8:11Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 8:12Speaker 00

  And she must have trusted Robert as well. But it was a pretty late night, right? She doesn't drop Robert off until about 2:00 AM. Denise's tire blew out on California State Route 73 in Costa Mesa, part of the Corona del Mar freeway. She managed to turn her hazards on and pull over to the shoulder.

• 8:33Speaker 01

  Man, I hate when a tire blows out.

• 8:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, I feel like it doesn't happen as much as it used to. You know, tires nowadays, they're just constructed a lot differently than they were when you and I were younger.

• 8:47Speaker 01

  Sure, yeah.

• 8:48Speaker 00

  Now you have some of those run flats, which nobody would have dreamed of.

• 8:55Speaker 01

  Back then.

• 8:56Speaker 00

  Back then. But the thing is, Gibbs, Denise was less than three miles from home. She could have easily walked to a nearby call box or gas station to ask for help, but she was abducted before she could get there to any of these types of locations. Denise's parents, Dennis and Ione Hubert, woke up later on the morning of June 3 and discovered Denise wasn't in her bedroom. They assumed she spent the night with a friend and went about their day. Both of them went to work, and when they came home, the knee still wasn't there. And this is kind of a very scary situation, because I think a lot of us have been here.

• 9:40Speaker 01

  Right.

• 9:41Speaker 00

  You know, as your kids get older, they tend to stay out later than many of their parents are able to stay away.

• 9:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:50Speaker 00

  So you may not know that they came home. You assume they did. You wake up the next morning, maybe you peek in on them. They're there, great. But if they're not, then there's a serious cause for concern.

• 10:05Speaker 01

  I remember several times I'd wake up, you know, I'd try to stay up thinking, I can stay up until, you know, they get home.

• 10:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:13Speaker 01

  And then they didn't get home, and then I fall asleep, and I wake up in a panic because I'm like, did they come home? I don't remember them coming home.

• 10:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:20Speaker 01

  Like you said, you get up, you look, and I remember a few times, like, my daughter wasn't home. And then I'm automatically, like, looking at my phone. I'm texting like, hey, it's like 4 o'clock. You're not here, were you?

• 10:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, now, I never had that problem because I stay up very, very late.

• 10:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:34Speaker 00

  But, you know, my wife goes to bed at 7:38, so, you know. It's kind of hard to set a curfew for your 20, 21 year old that's eight o'clock.

• 10:44Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah.

• 10:45Speaker 00

  Little difficult. Yeah. I only had a gut feeling that she needed to call Denise's friends. Around 10:00 PM, one of Denise's friends found her car abandoned on the side of the freeway. Her parents and the police drove over to the area. They found her car unlocked. The battery was drained from the hazard lights that were left running all day. There were signs Denise had been abducted. Her high heeled shoes were found at the scene and had marks indicating she was dragged.

• 11:18Speaker 01

  I'd be sick at that moment.

• 11:19Speaker 00

  Oh, absolutely. Sick to your stomach. Worry, fear, all of those emotions. Retired Costa Mesa detective Jack Archer was one of the first investigators assigned to the case. He interviewed Ione and Dennis, who said Denise was not in trouble. Did not use drugs and wouldn't just disappear for days at a time without talking to someone. And I would think 90 some percent of parents would say that about their kids.

• 11:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so.

• 11:53Speaker 00

  Now, there are people who we know get into trouble, start using drugs, disappear for days at a time. But that is a, a small minority.

• 12:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 12:03Speaker 00

  I think friends, coworkers and acquaintances had no idea where Denise might have gone. Her boyfriend Steve told the LA Times, I know that lots of people have said that she probably just took off. But she would have called her parents and let them know where she was, or she would have called me. And I almost say that exact same thing about most people that we talk about in unsolved disappearance cases.

• 12:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:31Speaker 00

  I just believe that that's what happened. Even if someone said, hey, I hate my life. I just, I gotta start something new. I gotta get away from everybody. They would find a way at some point in time to call their parents.

• 12:46Speaker 01

  They don't have to worry.

• 12:47Speaker 00

  To call their kids in some examples. Steve also said, I just know that foul play is involved. And insisted Denise would not accept a ride from a stranger. In mid-June, investigators announced they were searching for a young man. Who told the vendor at the Orange County swap meet that he saw a woman resembling Denise standing with two men. Near a car on the shoulder of the Corona Del Mar freeway around 2:30 AM on June 30. The man was shopping with a young woman and a baby in a stroller and stopped to look at Dolores Berg's booth. He saw a photo of Denise that Berg had posted in her booth.

• 13:30Speaker 00

  He commented that he remembered seeing the young woman on the freeway.

• 13:34Speaker 01

  What an interesting tip.

• 13:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, because he's got the time that lines up, right? With her dropping Robert off at his house at two o'clock. Okay, he sees her standing with two men at around 2:30 AM. It seems to line up.

• 13:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. But what if he didn't go to that booth that day?

• 13:54Speaker 00

  Well, now we're into the what ifs, right? And those are fascinating in and of themselves in all of these cases. He said, two men were standing near a car with its trunk open. One was tall with long blonde hair and the shorter man had dark hair. Berg asked him to talk to the police, but he said, I don't like cops. And you know, we talk a lot about, why don't people come forward with information if they have it? Well, here's a reason why some people might not.

• 14:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:25Speaker 00

  They're afraid of cops. They don't like cops.

• 14:28Speaker 01

  Or maybe had a bad experience at one time, or a family member did.

• 14:31Speaker 00

  Or maybe they're wrapped up in some things that they don't want to, to come out.

• 14:36Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 14:37Speaker 00

  They're, they're not involved in this, let's say, but maybe they got some other stuff going on.

• 14:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:43Speaker 00

  And they don't want to take a chance. She asked him to call the Huber family and he indicated he didn't want to get involved and left the booth. Now that's tough, right? Because let's say this guy didn't do anything wrong. Let's just say he did witness what he said he did. You'd really like for him to call the cops. You'd also like for him to call the family. He doesn't want to do either. Denise and I only Huber would spend the next three years of their lives searching for their daughter. Family and friends raised a $10,000 reward and distributed more than 15,000 flyers.

• 15:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a decent reward back then.

• 15:22Speaker 00

  It is.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  That's a boatload of flyers.

• 15:25Speaker 00

  It's actually not a bad reward now.

• 15:26Speaker 01

  No, you're true. That's true.

• 15:28Speaker 00

  We see it. We see a lot less. Dennis and I only even erected a banner on the side of an apartment building along the highway where Denise disappeared. Dennis said his car became a rolling billboard with posters of his daughter all over it. Every time he saw a woman, a young woman with long brown hair. He had to see her face to see if it was Denise.

• 15:52Speaker 01

  I can only imagine what that had to feel like.

• 15:55Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, your whole life changes in an instant. And that's really the only thing that you're focused on, I'm assuming.

• 16:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:05Speaker 00

  What happened to my daughter? How do I find my daughter? Do you, do you find yourself just driving around? And like he said, kind of looking at every young woman who has, you know, long dark hair and just wondering if that could be her.

• 16:21Speaker 01

  But look, I mean, he's trying to make the effort, right? He's, they're putting up these banners. He's got his car plastered in posters, you know, of, of his daughter. I mean, I think I'd do the same thing, you know? I mean, today you do like a, some type of car wrap, right? But back then, you know, just to glue those posters, I would do the same thing. Maybe somebody would drive past me and go, wait, I think I might know something about that.

• 16:47Speaker 00

  Well, when you think about it, is there really anything you wouldn't do?

• 16:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't think so.

• 16:51Speaker 00

  Within your power.

• 16:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:52Speaker 00

  Right? On October 9th, 1991, P I Logan Clark, who was hired by Denise's parents, told the LA Times. She was probably killed by someone she knew. Investigators believed Denise was abducted as she was walking to a call box. And I don't know if everybody is familiar with what a call box is. We don't really have them here in Ohio, or if we do, I don't see them.

• 17:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:19Speaker 00

  Very much. But I think they're big in California.

• 17:22Speaker 01

  They are.

• 17:23Speaker 00

  Where, you know, they're kind of every so often, maybe along a, a road. But it's a place where you can call for help, basically, like a phone. I don't think you can call anybody, but you can call an emergency number.

• 17:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. You get stranded, you go walk up to the call box, pick it up and they know your location. You tell them you need help.

• 17:42Speaker 00

  I think they have them in New York too. I've seen movies where they're like in New York City and different places, but.

• 17:48Speaker 01

  In Canada, I've seen them in Canada too.

• 17:50Speaker 00

  Maybe just not as big here in middle America.

• 17:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:54Speaker 00

  Where we are. As time passed, Dennis and I only hope started to fade. The police pursued many leads, but none of them panned out. And man, I, I just, I feel like what a tough roller coaster for parents. You gotta have hope.

• 18:11Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 18:12Speaker 00

  But at what point does that hope start to fade? And I think it has to a little bit, or maybe it's in the back of your mind. Maybe you don't want to admit it, but it has to.

• 18:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:25Speaker 00

  For example, officers staked out the freeway and took photos of driver's license plates. Then mailed letters asking if drivers saw anything suspicious on the night of June 2nd. Denise's case was featured on America's Most Wanted and Inside Edition, but the case went cold.

• 18:44Speaker 01

  Two popular shows.

• 18:46Speaker 00

  Yeah. Everybody would love to have that attention on their loved one's case.

• 18:52Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 18:53Speaker 00

  I only Huber said in June, 1994, on the third anniversary of her daughter's disappearance, per the LA Times. As time goes on, I realized Denise is probably not alive. Just to know and not have to constantly wonder what happened would be easier to handle than this mystery.

• 19:12Speaker 01

  That makes sense to me.

• 19:13Speaker 00

  And we've heard it before, right? From other family members, the not knowing is sometimes the toughest part. You know, I have a closet full of clothes, but I tend to go back to the same things. The ones I know that feel the best, fit the best. And right now I keep going back to Quince. I love everything I've gotten from Quince, but what I continually go for is their activewear flow net line. Quince focuses on high quality wardrobe staples made with premium materials like 100% Mongolian cashmere. Organic cotton and merino wool. Their styles are amazing and they design their clothes to become the dependable pieces you reach for day after day.

• 19:57Speaker 00

  Their 100% Mongolian cashmere sweater started just $60 and they are incredibly soft. And we know temperatures are getting ready to drop. Those sweaters are perfect. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. So you're paying for high quality, not brand markup. And it's not just clothing. Quince brings that same approach to everything they make. I love their bedding. They even have kitchen essentials and thoughtfully designed furniture. Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too.

• 20:39Speaker 00

  And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was true crime all the time. It's the best way to support the show. On July 13th, 1994, the Alva Pi County Sheriff's Office responded to a call about a possible stolen truck parked outside 37-year-old John Famalaro's home in Dewey, Arizona. The truck in question was a 24-foot Ryder rental truck that was reported stolen from Orange County, California, six months earlier. A woman who bought paint from Famalaro reported this truck. He was a self-employed house painter.

• 21:20Speaker 00

  Denise Huber told the LA Times, "She saw the truck and she told us that she felt the spirit pulling her to the truck. She felt so compelled, she wrote down the license plate number."

• 21:33Speaker 01

  Wow, that's some intuition there.

• 21:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's also kind of chilling a little bit. Now, Famalaro wasn't home when police arrived at his house. The deputy at the scene noticed a power cord running from the house to a freezer that was locked and sealed with tape inside the truck. Authorities thought the freezer was a mobile drug lab, but when they opened it, they found a frozen body inside a black trash bag. The victim's head was wrapped in three more trash bags, secured with duct tape. The victim was curled into the fetal position with her hands behind her back. I mean, what a scene that, you know, these investigators are walking up on. Obviously, it would be odd.

• 22:20Speaker 00

  This truck is reported stolen. Somebody's got an extension cord or a power cord running to the back of this truck, right? Inside of it, you see that it's being run into a freezer or something. I get it. The first thought is probably not going to be there's a body in there. It's probably going to be there's, there's drugs going on, there's something going on. But when they uncovered this body, it had to have been shocking.

• 22:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't think anybody would ever open that up to be like, "Oh, it's just a body, Bob." You know, no, they're going to be like, "What the heck? What do we got going on here?"

• 22:56Speaker 00

  The body was identified as Denise Huber on July 16th using fingerprint technology. Denise had been sexually assaulted and bludgeoned to death in the head with a claw hammer and nail remover.

• 23:11Speaker 01

  Brutal.

• 23:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, that's a terrible way to go. Authorities believed John Famalaro targeted Denise when he saw her alone and vulnerable on the side of the highway. He hadn't been a suspect, and there was no indication Denise knew him. Famalaro was arrested and charged with murder, kidnapping, and sodomy. Inside his residence, investigators found a box labeled "Christmas Decorations." Inside that box was the clothing Denise was wearing that night. Famalaro's clothing and items suspected to be the murder weapons. A bloody crowbar, a claw hammer, and a metal nail puller.

• 23:55Speaker 01

  Isn't that weird that he kept all that stuff?

• 23:58Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, and, you know, you hear about this quite a bit, right? In different cases, it is sometimes what trips killers up, but for some reason, they feel compelled to keep some of this stuff.

• 24:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:14Speaker 00

  Whether it's trophies, you know, whatever, it allows them to relive the attack, the incident. But let's be honest, right? Keeping your bloody clothing, the victim's clothing, and the murder weapons, you're not going to be giving your defense attorney a lot to work with.

• 24:38Speaker 01

  Oh, you're, you're doing a great job helping out the prosecution.

• 24:41Speaker 00

  Now, we're not telling killers to get rid of the stuff. It just, I just think a lot of these people, they don't think they're ever going to get caught. The, the compunction to kind of keep this stuff overrides probably their common sense.

• 24:55Speaker 01

  Right, for sure. I mean, I'm glad they do.

• 24:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, because it leads to a lot of them getting caught. Denise's wounds were consistent with an object like a crowbar. Her wallet, ID, makeup, and car keys were found in another box, as well as a bloodstained tarp. And I think if you're a prosecutor, this is about as much evidence as you can ever expect to have, right? In a murder.

• 25:22Speaker 01

  I think you're feeling really good as long as it was collected the right way. You know, I'm thinking, man, we got a slam dunk here.

• 25:29Speaker 00

  Famalaro also had several issues of the Orange County Register, featuring headlines about Denise's disappearance and a videotaped recording of an episode of Inside Edition that featured a story about Denise's case.

• 25:45Speaker 01

  So they got all this evidence. They had the body.

• 25:48Speaker 00

  In his possession.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, if you're a prosecutor and the investigators, I think you're feeling extremely, you know, good about it all.

• 25:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, and if you're the defense attorney, you're like, "What am I going to do with this? This is a mountain of evidence." As investigators dug into Famalaro's background, they learned he moved from Orange County to Arizona in 1992 to take care of his aging father, who had Parkinson's disease. His neighbor said he was a loner and avoided contact with them. He was a secretive person. Even his mother, Ann, who lived next door to him, didn't know much about his life. Ann, who was active in local politics, told reporters after the arrest, "I didn't know what he had in there. I thought he was moving paint. I really can't tell you much about him. I just don't know. I think he's a good boy.

• 26:44Speaker 00

  I don't know what to make of all of this."

• 26:46Speaker 01

  Don't think he's a good boy.

• 26:48Speaker 00

  No, I don't think he is, but, you know, what's a mom going to say? Most people are not going to tell their mom that they're a killer.

• 26:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:58Speaker 00

  And they're going to act around their mom in a much different way than what they would do around, let's say, their victims, if they are a killer or a serial killer. According to LA Times, Famalaro was raised in a strict conservative Christian home that emphasized education. He went to college but never earned a degree. He attended Rancho Santiago College from 1975 to 1979. In 1984, he asked for his transcripts to be sent to Cal Poly Pomona. Officials at the university had no record of him attending there. So, I mean, he went for four years to the one college, didn't graduate.

• 27:42Speaker 00

  Sounds like he was planning to maybe go back in 84, but never did. He made several attempts in 83 and 84 to be a police officer, sheriff's deputy, or a reserve officer, but was either rejected or dropped out early in the application process. He did spend four months as a reserve sheriff's deputy for the LA County Sheriff's Department. He began the six-month training program in November 1983, but dropped out in March 1984 because of an injury.

• 28:13Speaker 01

  So he never really became what he wanted to be?

• 28:16Speaker 00

  No. In May 1983, he applied to be a reserve deputy in Orange County, but he dropped out after passing the written exam, physical agility test, and oral interview. A year later, two months after he dropped out of the LA Academy, he applied again at Orange County for a job as a deputy.

• 28:37Speaker 01

  Sounds like he was a quitter.

• 28:39Speaker 00

  Well, in 84, he applied with the Irvine PD, but he dropped out early in the process. Yeah, he, he had a, a desire, it seems, to be in law enforcement. He applied many, many times, but it seemed like somewhere in the process, he would drop out. Sometimes very early on, sometimes later in the process, one time after he basically passed everything. He just dropped out. So did he really want it, or I don't know?

• 29:13Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, it seems like he definitely was a quitter and couldn't follow through on things, but what was driving that, I have no clue.

• 29:22Speaker 00

  Authorities found two look-alike LA County Sheriff's Deputy shirts in his home in July 1994. Officials at the company that supplied the training academy uniform said that it wasn't difficult for someone to buy the shirts. The issue was when they tried to put department patches on the shirts. Famalaro reportedly sewed a handmade replica of a Los Angeles Sheriff's Department patch to the uniform. So for whatever reason, you know, he did have some desire to be in law enforcement. And then at a certain point, he was just like, "You know what? I don't need to go through all this. I'm just going to fake it.

• 30:06Speaker 00

  I'll just buy some shirts and make my own uniform." But what would be the reason for that?

• 30:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, unless you're doing something nefarious.

• 30:14Speaker 00

  Right, it's not, it's not just to have them in your closet, right? Is he going to use them in the commission of some crimes, maybe? Is that why he wanted to be in law enforcement? Because he wanted the power? And maybe he was planning to misuse that power to commit crimes? We just don't know.

• 30:33Speaker 01

  Maybe he wanted to wear them to the club at night, like, "Hey, I just got off work, ladies, I'm a police officer."

• 30:39Speaker 00

  It's hard to tell. I know one thing, though, investigators are always really concerned when they find out that a killer either tried to be a cop, was a cop, or was impersonating a cop. Because it can lead to a whole bunch of other different things. You think about Ed Kemper, he had a fascination with cops. It's pretty well known.

• 31:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:05Speaker 00

  And I don't think he's the only killer who has had that.

• 31:10Speaker 01

  I mean, what if this guy got off the road where she was at and pretended to be an active police officer or a police officer that just got off of work? And look, I'm here to help you. Let me open my trunk up. I'm sure I can, got some tools in here. And then hits her and drags her or throws her in his trunk and take off.

• 31:30Speaker 00

  Well, that's why it's so scary, right? You think about what we've all been taught, don't talk to strangers. Okay, well, if you're in a situation like she was in, you might have to talk to a stranger, but you might be wary. But what if it's a police officer? Is that level of concern going to drop dramatically? Because you think this is a person whose sole job is to protect the community. I can trust them. They, they're going to help me out.

• 32:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think your guard is coming down.

• 32:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's why it's so scary when you have someone like this who is possibly impersonating law enforcement. Famalaro lost his contractor's license in Arizona in early 1994. After customers complained about his work and refusal to fix mistakes, some of the employees contended that they never got paid. His clients described him as a silver tongued salesman who gave eloquent pitches. One neighbor who asked to remain anonymous said he believed Famalaro egged his house after he hired someone else to paint.

• 32:46Speaker 01

  I guess it's like, okay, you don't want me to do it? I'm gonna show you.

• 32:50Speaker 00

  I'm gonna egg your house.

• 32:52Speaker 01

  You ever been egged?

• 32:54Speaker 00

  No, but I have done some egging. I'm, yeah, sad to say that is something I did in my younger days.

• 33:01Speaker 01

  Can do some real damage.

• 33:02Speaker 00

  It can. Yeah, it can. I feel bad about some of the things I've done. I really do, but.

• 33:07Speaker 01

  Did you go back later in life and apologize?

• 33:09Speaker 00

  I did not.

• 33:10Speaker 01

  You didn't feel that bad?

• 33:11Speaker 00

  No, I, I, I maybe did went egging one time, but I remember going TPing quite a bit.

• 33:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:18Speaker 00

  That was kind of a big thing when I was in school.

• 33:21Speaker 01

  I know we TP'd a lot. You did too, right after COVID? Cause we all had that, so much toilet paper. We're like, what are we gonna do with all this stuff? And we're like, let's go TPing.

• 33:31Speaker 00

  No, my wife is like, she would not have let me done that because she was very into making sure that this family had enough TP to go around. Plus, by that time, my, my TPing days were long behind me. But here's the thing, right? Famalaro had no criminal record, except for two minor traffic violations. And that's really not surprising because he wouldn't have been allowed to, you know, go through the, the training, right? To be a police officer if he had some type of serious criminal record. Now, we talked about it. He wasn't very social with his neighbors. People were curious about the large truck and freezer outside his home.

• 34:14Speaker 00

  When they asked what was in the freezer, he only said meat.

• 34:19Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 34:20Speaker 00

  First of all, I gotta be honest with you. I'm probably not asking a lot of people what's in their freezer. I might be asking, why do you have a freezer outside of the home? Can you not put that in a garage, in a basement, somewhere else?

• 34:36Speaker 01

  I'm sure his neighbors were like, what the heck, man?

• 34:39Speaker 00

  Maybe that's not strange in California. That's pretty strange where I live. You have a freezer outside.

• 34:45Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, that would be definitely looked down upon and also alarming.

• 34:51Speaker 00

  Records showed the freezer was purchased on June 10th, 1991.

• 34:57Speaker 01

  Really?

• 34:57Speaker 00

  Just a week after Denise went missing. In July, the LA Times ran a story on Elaine Canalia, the woman who called in the tip that led to the discovery of Denise's body. Elaine had known Famalaro for about two months. She knew that he already had a van and a truck. So she wondered why he needed a large rental truck. He also wasn't driving it anywhere because he had boxes of paint cans stacked around. She visited his home on July 9th to buy painting supplies and decided to write down the license plate number. Elaine was there with her business partner, Jack Court.

• 35:38Speaker 00

  As they were loading boxes into Elaine's car, Famalaro seemed to be in a rush. He wouldn't let Jack Court's grandson use the bathroom in his house, saying he had no running water. They had all had a long day at the Prescott Valley swap meet where they had previously done business. So she assumed Famalaro was tired. And we just did a case recently that was in Arizona. And I just called it Prescott, but I was told by various people that it's actually pronounced Prescott.

• 36:11Speaker 01

  Prescott?

• 36:12Speaker 00

  I did not know that, but I'm going to try to remember.

• 36:15Speaker 01

  As in like a, like a biscuit?

• 36:17Speaker 00

  Kinda.

• 36:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. Or Triscuit.

• 36:21Speaker 00

  Well, those rhyme, so.

• 36:25Speaker 00

  That's pretty funny.

• 36:26Speaker 01

  I'm a lyrical genius.

• 36:27Speaker 00

  You are.

• 36:29Speaker 00

  Elaine assumed the truck was stolen when she took down the license plate, but she never imagined a body was inside. Something about the truck nagged at her. And I get it, right? So you think something's not right? And she did really have a, a pretty good sense about that. Some people wouldn't notice it at all, but she did.

• 36:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:51Speaker 00

  Right, where does he need this truck? He's got other trucks. He's not using it to haul paint in because the paint's just all stacked around it. But probably the last thing in your mind is, well, he's got a body in there. That's just not where most people go to right away.

• 37:08Speaker 01

  But she sounds like somebody you wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of. She's going to find out what you did wrong.

• 37:16Speaker 00

  Well, she's observant. I'll give her that. And it's a good thing because if not for her, you could make the argument, maybe this case isn't solved.

• 37:25Speaker 01

  Oh, I definitely think that's true.

• 37:27Speaker 00

  On July 12th, her detective friend from Phoenix came to her warehouse to buy paint. So Elaine gave him the license plate number and suggested he check it out. The detective made a call from Elaine's office and learned that the truck was stolen. The next day, he returned to Elaine's warehouse and received a call from colleagues who had found Famalaro's house. Elaine recalled to the LA Times, from where I was, I heard him say homicide, body, freezer. I was horrified. It makes me sick to think I was standing right next to this truck that held this body.

• 38:08Speaker 01

  Make me sick too. Well, like you said, she has to also realize if it wasn't for her poking and prodding, they wouldn't have found this.

• 38:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, or, and following her gut, right? Cause not everybody follows their gut. They might have the feeling, but they don't act on it.

• 38:24Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 38:25Speaker 00

  The LA Times reported that Denise's murder was almost solved a month earlier. In June, 1994, Ryder officials failed to follow up on a lead from a San Clemente woman who traced Famalaro to his address in Dewey. Carolyn Copeland went to the San Clemente Ryder franchise with her daughter, who was returning a rental. She struck up a conversation with the clerk about her job, which is finding missing heirs. And the clerk mentioned he had someone he wanted to find and asked if she could find John Famalaro, who failed to return a rental truck in January. Copeland used computer databases and she found Famalaro, which wasn't difficult because

• 39:10Speaker 00

  of his pretty unique name. She passed the information on to the San Clemente franchise, who passed it on to Ryder officials at the headquarters in Miami, but they didn't follow up on the lead. That's kind of shocking because you would think they would really want that truck back.

• 39:27Speaker 01

  You would think unless that insurance money was pretty darn good.

• 39:30Speaker 00

  Well, and Ryder is a pretty big company.

• 39:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:34Speaker 00

  I have a feeling that a lot of Ryder trucks go missing. I've actually heard that on some of the YouTube body cam police videos.

• 39:43Speaker 01

  Really?

• 39:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, that Ryder trucks are stolen quite often.

• 39:48Speaker 01

  Come in pretty handy for different things.

• 39:50Speaker 00

  Well, they're used to transport drugs. They're used to transport all kinds of different.

• 39:54Speaker 01

  Human trafficking.

• 39:55Speaker 00

  Human trafficking, that could be true as well. Denise's parents were devastated when they learned their daughter was dead. Dennis recalled, as quoted by A and E, I thought my world was ending that day that we got confirmation. And then to know what she went through, it gnaws at me all the time. And how could it not? Right. First of all, you don't know what happened to her. Then all of a sudden you find out what happened to her and then you can't stop thinking about that.

• 40:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, you go from one type of feeling to a whole nother extreme on the other side.

• 40:30Speaker 00

  And we talked about it, right? The particulars of what happened to Denise, they were brutal. And how's a, a parent not going to think about what their daughter went through when you know how heinous it was?

• 40:49Speaker 00

  DNA evidence showed that Famalaro killed Denise inside a warehouse unit in Laguna Hills in Orange County, California. After killing her, he stuffed her body into the freezer and took it with him when he moved to Arizona. And this is what I can't get out of my mind is, it's actually two things. Number one, how long he had this rider truck?

• 41:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:15Speaker 00

  And then number two, how long he had her body inside this freezer?

• 41:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I don't know why he kept the body as long as he did, besides the fact that we know sometimes they like to have trophies and they like to relive the experience and all that. But if he would have got rid of the body years ago, maybe they would have never tied him to her disappearance.

• 41:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's absolutely possible. I wonder if it was a trophy situation, or whether he was just unsure of how to get rid of the body, or fearful that it would be found. I don't know.

• 41:54Speaker 01

  Wanted to have control of it by keeping it with him at all times?

• 41:57Speaker 00

  Possibly, but then he also kept all of the murder weapons and the clothing. So it does kind of seem more like a trophy type situation.

• 42:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:08Speaker 00

  Famalaro lived in and ran his painting business from the warehouse unit. A witness told police, the unit had to be cleaned after he moved out. And there was a spot covered in what they thought was red paint. The substance had been washed away by the time police searched the unit. But investigators cut into the wall near the spot and found dried blood. And how many times do we talk about it, right? Can you clean up everything? Because blood has a tendency to find its way into cracks and crevices, behind, underneath, places you can't see.

• 42:47Speaker 01

  You don't want it there, you better burn it.

• 42:49Speaker 00

  Investigators worried there were more victims, because during the search of the home, they found IDs, credit cards, and clothing, some of it with red stains on it. I mean, you have to be wondering, right? If you're investigators, is this guy a serial killer? How many victims could he possibly have?

• 43:09Speaker 01

  You know, somebody that does something like this, you have to kind of think he probably has done it before.

• 43:15Speaker 00

  Well, he's certainly capable of it.

• 43:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:17Speaker 00

  They developed a list of nine women in Southern California in Phoenix, and managed to track down almost all of those women in July, 1994. Court documents released that month indicated that police dug up to 10 feet deep in areas of his yard, where cadaver dogs picked up a scent, but no bodies were found. And I always wonder if that means that possibly a body was there at some point, and then it was moved later.

• 43:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:48Speaker 00

  At a July bail hearing, a sheriff's lieutenant testified that several of Famalaro's ex-girlfriends said he threatened him. Investigators also said they talked to his brother Warren several times, and described him as being anywhere from a witness to a suspect.

• 44:07Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 44:08Speaker 00

  Okay, that's a pretty wide chasm.

• 44:11Speaker 01

  It is.

• 44:12Speaker 00

  Pretty big chasm, right? This guy, he could be a witness, he could potentially be a suspect.

• 44:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, he might have been involved.

• 44:19Speaker 00

  Two witnesses came forward with important information. One man said he helped Famalaro measure the 23 foot long freezer, to see if it would fit in his home in Arizona. A woman said she once found an 18 inch bone while digging at this guy's house, but thought nothing of it.

• 44:41Speaker 01

  So a couple of things here. Didn't realize the freezer was 23 feet long.

• 44:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, we talked about, hey, can you not put that in your garage? Can you not put that in the basement? I don't even know where you get a 23 foot long freezer.

• 44:56Speaker 01

  I have no clue.

• 44:58Speaker 00

  That is, that's a big ass freezer.

• 45:00Speaker 01

  That is a huge freezer. Like maybe like some industrial freezer.

• 45:05Speaker 00

  Well, I'm over six foot tall.

• 45:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:08Speaker 00

  So that's, if I lay down, that's almost four of me.

• 45:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:13Speaker 00

  That is a really long freezer.

• 45:16Speaker 01

  And then, I don't know how you find an 18 inch bone?

• 45:20Speaker 00

  And think nothing of it?

• 45:21Speaker 01

  Ah, this is a bone. I'll just toss it over here.

• 45:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, I can't get this 23 foot freezer out of my mind. I kind of thought it was a typo. I just don't, I don't know that I've ever seen a freezer that big. I'm not even sure like restaurants would have room for that type of.

• 45:40Speaker 01

  Maybe like a grocery store or something?

• 45:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, a grocery store. But they normally, they wouldn't have one with like a lid.

• 45:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:49Speaker 00

  That was that long. They have whole sections, right? Where they keep frozen foods, but I don't know, that's so strange.

• 45:57Speaker 01

  It would be cool to have one that big.

• 45:59Speaker 00

  For what? How many frozen pizzas do you need?

• 46:03Speaker 01

  Says I'm putting pizzas in there.

• 46:04Speaker 00

  Well, that's what I would be afraid of. I don't think you need a big ass freezer. Denise was buried in Harrod, South Dakota, on August 2nd, 1994, next to her grandfather. Denise never lived there, but her father, Dennis, grew up in the town. He left the state in the late 60s, after meeting and marrying Ione. Dennis and Ione moved back to South Dakota after Denise went missing, because the memories were too painful in Southern California.

• 46:37Speaker 01

  I can understand that.

• 46:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, we talk about, you know, can people live in the same house, where they know their loved one was murdered? I think it would be tough, but it would, it'd be just tough to live in the same town, right? Too many memories.

• 46:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:52Speaker 00

  The other thing that I thought was, you know, South Dakota to Orange County, California, that's, that's quite a difference, right? When they moved there, that might have taken some getting used to.

• 47:06Speaker 01

  Definitely going to be a lifestyle change.

• 47:09Speaker 00

  Well, the weather's going to be a heck of a lot better, I can tell you that. The winters aren't going to be as harsh.

• 47:14Speaker 01

  Well, one of these days, you're going to get to South Dakota, I know you will.

• 47:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's on my bucket list.

• 47:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:20Speaker 00

  But a lot of things are on my bucket list.

• 47:22Speaker 01

  You got a pretty big bucket list.

• 47:24Speaker 00

  You know, I've only crossed so many of them off, and you know, I probably only got 47, 50 more good years. So I got to get working on it.

• 47:33Speaker 01

  Get busy.

• 47:35Speaker 00

  You know, how good I take care of myself, I'm assuming I'm going to live to be 100.

• 47:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, I hope you do. What's the old saying? Get busy dying, or get busy living? Or something like that?

• 47:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm close enough.

• 47:51Speaker 00

  Opening arguments in John Famalaro's murder trial began on May 8th, 1997. He was eligible for the death penalty due to special circumstance allegations that Denise was killed during a kidnapping, and during the commission, or attempted commission of sodomy. In his opening statement, Deputy DA Christopher Evans told the jury that Famalaro had a dark side and a history of sexual violence against former girlfriends. Evans described the final hours of Denise's life, telling the jury that she was dragged from her car and taken to the warehouse, where she was sexually assaulted and struck in

• 48:34Speaker 00

  the head 31 times with a nail puller.

• 48:38Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 48:39Speaker 00

  Horrific.

• 48:40Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 48:42Speaker 00

  And I always wonder about, you know, right? Her family is probably in the courthouse. How difficult would it be to have to listen to all these details? Because you know, the prosecution has to go into every minute detail. The jury's got to know, because they want to get a conviction, but man, it's got to be tough on the family.

• 49:06Speaker 01

  And they go in some details. I mean, 31 times with a nail puller? Do you really want to hear that?

• 49:12Speaker 00

  No, you don't. You don't. And I know sometimes family members walk out during that part. Famalaro put three plastic bags over her head, and hit her with such forceful blows, that parts of the bags were embedded in her skull.

• 49:28Speaker 01

  More details you don't really want to hear.

• 49:29Speaker 00

  No, brutal. He kept Denise's body as a perverse trophy, to remind himself of the success he had that night.

• 49:39Speaker 01

  Wow. And I had a good night, guys.

• 49:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, let's, let's just break down that statement by the prosecutor. So, you know, his thought is, kept the body as a perverse trophy, but this is what we often talk about, right? To remind the killer of what they did, maybe even help the killer relive it. But he's saying, of the success he had that night.

• 50:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:07Speaker 00

  And that's probably how some of these killers look at it. They were successful in pulling off what they wanted to do.

• 50:16Speaker 01

  It was a perfect night. Everything went the way that it should have, in his mind.

• 50:20Speaker 00

  Denise broke down in a well-lit area, and could have easily walked to a convenience store or a call box, but she was abducted before she could do that. The jury saw her high heeled shoes that were damaged with drag marks. Two forensic scientists testified that Denise's blood was found in a warehouse in Laguna Hills, where the prosecution said she was killed. The same blood type was also found on a nail puller, hammer, and other items recovered from Famalaro's home. However, forensic scientist Mary Hong testified that

• 50:58Speaker 00

  DNA samples taken from Denise's body did not show any DNA besides hers. And I don't know what you make of that, if you're a juror. I've always thought.

• 51:12Speaker 00

  You know, what does the absence of DNA mean versus the presence?

• 51:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:18Speaker 00

  Of DNA, because to me, they're, they're two very different things. If a killer is careful and they wear gloves and they take certain precautions, is it possible to get away without leaving DNA? Possibly, yeah.

• 51:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:33Speaker 00

  I think it is. But if you find DNA, to me, that actually means a lot more than the absence. But the defense is going to make a lot out of the absence.

• 51:45Speaker 01

  Sure. But if they find the body in your possession, DNA or not.

• 51:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:52Speaker 01

  I mean.

• 51:53Speaker 00

  You got the murder weapons, right? You got the, her clothing. I think that in and of itself kind of defeats any type of, well, there were, you didn't find any of his DNA argument.

• 52:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 52:07Speaker 00

  Deputy Public Defender Leonard Gumlia said outside court that the absence of other DNA bolstered the defense's contention that Denise was not sexually assaulted.

• 52:20Speaker 01

  You can make that claim, but at the end of the day, she's been murdered.

• 52:25Speaker 00

  Well, and, and so my question is, what are they trying to do? They're trying to say she wasn't sexually assaulted, but he did murder her. And so, okay, they're trying to get out of some of the charges, but they're not going to be able to get out of the big one. I, I don't know. I don't know what they're trying to do exactly. Two former girlfriends testified that Famalaro was devastated when they ended the relationship. Both said he was secretive and described incidents where he handcuffed them against their will. Denise was found with her hands handcuffed behind her back. One woman who dated him in the late eighties and again in 1991,

• 53:06Speaker 00

  described the 1987 incident where Famalaro handcuffed her in the blink of an eye against a hotel window in New York City and left her there for three hours. She broke up with him after the trip.

• 53:19Speaker 01

  Can you blame her?

• 53:20Speaker 00

  No, I think for most, that's a deal breaker.

• 53:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:23Speaker 00

  Most people do not like to be handcuffed against their will. Now, can it be part of a couple's sex life, right? Role playing, sure. I'm, I'm sure some people are into that, but it's consensual.

• 53:38Speaker 01

  I have bought you so many handcuffs because you asked me to get them for you because you didn't want them to show up here.

• 53:43Speaker 00

  Okay, that story was about ready to go real sideways. That you're buying me handcuffs as though we're into some.

• 53:50Speaker 01

  No, no, no.

• 53:51Speaker 00

  Kind of, let's just make that clear right now.

• 53:53Speaker 01

  For you because you didn't want them to be delivered here and your daughter see that you got them.

• 53:57Speaker 00

  I just think the implication, right? That it's done against someone's will. All right, that, that's going to go a long way with the jury. When we know she was found with, you know, her hands behind her back handcuffed. Under cross-examination, the woman was shown photos of herself handcuffed and engaging in what appeared to be consensual sexual activity on that trip. She said she blocked out parts of the episode and had no recollection of what was in the photos. Now, to be fair, there could have been some consensual acts.

• 54:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:38Speaker 00

  And then he could have taken it further and, and there could have been a part of it that was not consensual as far as the handcuffing.

• 54:44Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 54:45Speaker 00

  She testified though, that she remained friends with him over the years, even after their second breakup. Besides the handcuffing incident, she said he was caring and generous. And, and I think the jury probably is going to take that into account. Not only did she remain friends with him, she actually got back together with him in 1991. So I, I don't know, as, as a juror, you're going to have to take everything.

• 55:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think you kind of weed through that a little bit.

• 55:15Speaker 00

  She mentioned that her sons helped John move the freezer on a few occasions.

• 55:21Speaker 01

  I'm sure he had have a handful of people move that, uh, big freezer.

• 55:25Speaker 00

  Another woman who dated him in 1989, described an incident where she was thrown down on a bed and handcuffed. A 10, 15 minute struggle ensued. She testified, there was a look in his eyes I hadn't seen before. His eyes looked like he was enjoying what he was doing and I didn't. John called her a bitch and said she brought it on herself. He said she obviously didn't understand mature sex games.

• 55:58Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 55:59Speaker 00

  Again, there are things that are consensual and there are things that are not.

• 56:03Speaker 01

  I mean, if you're going to have some sex games, good for you, but maybe you need to kind of have that conversation first, like, hey, sometime this week, we're going to do some sex game thing where I'm going to handcuff you and toss you down on the bed. Are you good with that?

• 56:19Speaker 00

  Well, there's got to be ground rules, right? You just can't do something and then expect someone to be okay with it. You know, maybe some prior advance notice, some agreements, a safe word. There's all kinds of things involved here.

• 56:34Speaker 01

  What was your safe word?

• 56:36Speaker 00

  Artichoke, artichoke, always artichoke.

• 56:40Speaker 01

  As long as she knows.

• 56:41Speaker 00

  She broke up with him after this incident, but got back together with him three months later. She saw John about a week after Denise's murder. When she dropped off a birthday present at the warehouse where he was living, he appeared the same as usual.

• 56:58Speaker 01

  He really wasn't shaken about what he did. If anything, maybe, because we know he had, we think he enjoyed it.

• 57:06Speaker 00

  Why, maybe he was satiated. I don't know that some of these killers, it really changes their demeanor all that much.

• 57:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:14Speaker 00

  I, I don't know that a lot of them are going to act like they're freaking out or, even if they are, they're probably not going to let that on to people they know. But here's the thing, Gibbs, the defense didn't contest that Famalaro killed Denise, but they did contend that he didn't kidnap or assault her as alleged in these special circumstances. Defense attorney Leonard Gumlia said outside court, as quoted by the LA Times, there was no captivity, no longevity. She died within and out. When presenting their case, the prosecution didn't address how long Denise may have survived after encountering Famalaro. And, and it's a big deal, right?

• 57:58Speaker 00

  The defense is conceding to the fact that he killed Denise. What they're trying to do is trying to get him out of the special circumstances that I think would allow the prosecution to secure the death pill.

• 58:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:16Speaker 00

  And that's the kidnapping and the homicide during the assault. Both the prosecution and the defense agreed to tell the jury that Denise's blood alcohol content was between point zero eight and point one one. When she pulled over to the side of the highway, the judge instructed the jury to accept these facts. This was done to avoid lengthy questioning that might have taken half a day of testimony. And that happens sometimes, right? It might not be something that one side wants in, but they know it's going to get in.

• 58:56Speaker 00

  So both sides agree, hey, we're going to submit these as facts and, you know, what does it mean? Technically, she was probably above the legal limit.

• 59:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:06Speaker 00

  A little bit. Denise's friend, Robert Calvert testified earlier at trial that he and Denise had four to five shots of vodka each and some beers at the concert. And then later at a restaurant, he testified that they were not intoxicated.

• 59:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, maybe they didn't feel intoxicated, you know, but based on her blood level, it seemed like she might have been.

• 59:29Speaker 00

  Oh, I think legally, she shouldn't have been dry.

• 59:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:32Speaker 00

  Now, if, if, if she's around point oh eight, I mean, she's right on the line. If that's what it was in California at the time, I don't know what it was.

• 59:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:42Speaker 00

  That's what it is most places nowadays, right? Point zero eight. Defense attorney Leonard Gumlia suggested that Denise may have drunk enough to not want to call authorities for help when her tire blew out and might take a little more risk than you might otherwise do in that situation. And I understand what he has to try to do, but he really is blaming her for this guy killing her, which I find offensive.

• 1:00:10Speaker 01

  Same here.

• 1:00:11Speaker 00

  Charles Sims, Associate Director of Pathology at Century City Hospital in LA, testified for the defense that evidence from Denise's body could not definitely be called sperm. During cross-examination, he admitted he hadn't viewed such forensic samples in the last two decades prior to this case. And he was not testifying in his area of expertise.

• 1:00:38Speaker 01

  Then why say anything at all?

• 1:00:39Speaker 00

  I'm assuming because they're paying him.

• 1:00:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:42Speaker 00

  To.

• 1:00:42Speaker 01

  But that's really shitty of them, to be honest.

• 1:00:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, but you know, sometimes so-called experts do things for money. I get that. I think if you're the jury though, you would take this into account. The defense also showed the jury a, a pair of heels similar to Denise's and argued that they could have been damaged while she was hiking up and down the freeway embankment looking for help. And what are they trying to do, Gibbs? They're trying to say, no, these aren't drag marks.

• 1:01:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:14Speaker 00

  As the prosecution contends. During closing arguments, Deputy Public Defender Denise Gregg presented a scenario of what the defense believed happened the night Denise died. They argued that Famalaro didn't kidnap or sexually assault her and struck her with a hammer in a spontaneous attack because Denise was running from him or resisting a sexual overture. When she went unconscious, he panicked and at some point decided to kill her. According to Gregg, Denise encountered Famalaro on the side of the road in a friendly enough manner. She was stranded and went willingly with him.

• 1:01:58Speaker 00

  Gregg suggested Denise's judgment may have been impaired by alcohol and her misplaced trust led to her violent death. Again, putting it back on her.

• 1:02:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:10Speaker 00

  And again, I, I understand that the defense has to say some things here. They have to try something. I don't like the victim blaming, but I also, as a juror, I'm having a hard time buying the fact that she went willingly with him to this warehouse, as though that was going to somehow help her out with her car trouble and that he spontaneously decided to kill her.

• 1:02:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, if, I think if they said. She got in the car with him because he was going to take her down the road somewhere and drop her off. But why would she ever agree to go to a warehouse?

• 1:02:50Speaker 00

  But see, they can't say that because then that would be kidnapping.

• 1:02:53Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:02:54Speaker 00

  Right? If he says he's going to take her one place, but takes her to his warehouse against her will, that by definition is kidnapping. So they can't say that. Deputy DA Christopher Evans told the jury that Denise was abducted and perhaps dragged, as evidenced by her heels, and taken to the warehouse against her will, where she was raped and murdered. Evans showed the jury photos of Denise's body and said, this is a victim who not only had her head caved in, but was blindfolded, probably gagged, handcuffed, had her clothing removed, and had bags placed over her head in a pretty calculated manner.

• 1:03:36Speaker 00

  The defense maintained that Denise was dead before her clothing was removed and she was gagged and blindfolded.

• 1:03:44Speaker 01

  Sick guy.

• 1:03:45Speaker 00

  Well, but why would you need to gag and blindfold someone if they're already dead?

• 1:03:53Speaker 01

  Maybe it's part of his fantasy.

• 1:03:55Speaker 00

  Ah, it doesn't make sense. I'm not buying it. Gragg emphasized that the killing was not premeditated and the absence of injuries other than the head injuries indicated that there was not a kidnapping or a struggle. And I don't think that's necessarily true either.

• 1:04:11Speaker 01

  I don't think so either.

• 1:04:12Speaker 00

  Leonard Gumlia also told the jury that there was no conclusive proof that samples collected from Denise's body contained sperm. These samples also did not contain Famalaro's DNA. On May 22nd, 1997, John Famalaro was convicted of first degree murder under the special circumstances that Denise was killed during a kidnapping and during the commission or attempted commission of sodomy. During the penalty phase, the defense argued that he suffered from childhood trauma and mental health issues. Defense attorney Gumlia asked the jury to keep an open mind when hearing about Famalaro, who truly wants to do good

• 1:04:55Speaker 00

  with his life, but is too psychologically scarred to do so. He said, brain scans showed that Famalaro had extra activity in his temporal lobe associated with basic instincts of sex and violence, which he couldn't control and did not understand. An extremism element in his Catholic upbringing also shaped him and his view. According to the defense, he suffered from hereditary OCD, which might explain why he kept Denise's body stored inside a freezer. They rejected the prosecution's notion that Denise's body was a trophy. They

• 1:05:38Speaker 00

  said he was separated from the body for over a year when he moved from Orange County to Arizona in 1992, and the freezer remained in a storage facility. He brought it over in the rider truck in early 1994. The defense noted that his psychological descent began in the early 80s when his pregnant girlfriend broke up with him and put the baby up for adoption despite his objections. They said he never recovered from that in a certain way. In the weeks leading up to Denise's murder, another woman broke up with him and he contacted a suicide hotline. They said he was badly scarred by rejection and did

• 1:06:19Speaker 00

  not know if he could go on. His mother testified about her struggles of raising John and his siblings. She said, as quoted by the LA Times, "I'm up here brokenhearted in every way, and I know that pornography is the reason." She said that John, her youngest son, just didn't seem right growing up. He was nervous and sullen, but she didn't seek professional help for him. Ann said, "I'm sorry to say, I didn't think, period. I was just so busy just trying to raise three kids." She discussed raising the children with her husband in Santa Ana, where she was active in politics and served on the city council. She often

• 1:07:02Speaker 00

  gave speeches to hundreds of people on religion and politics and organized protests against abortion and an adult theater in the city. She said she tried to teach her kids to be good and do the right thing. Defense attorney Denise Gragg asked Ann about how she raised the children and suggested through questioning that Ann didn't do laundry often or have the kids bathe regularly. And when they did bathe, she scrubbed their genitals especially hard and washed them with hot water. Now, Ann denied doing this, but did admit telling her sons that masturbation would make them go crazy.

• 1:07:43Speaker 01

  What'd you used to say about masturbation?

• 1:07:45Speaker 00

  Nothing. You and I have never talked about masturbation, and why would we? I know you're trying to elicit some response from me, but why in the world would we ever have a conversation about that?

• 1:07:58Speaker 01

  I'm just checking with you.

• 1:07:59Speaker 00

  This is so strange.

• 1:08:01Speaker 01

  It's very strange.

• 1:08:02Speaker 00

  Because you know, the defense attorney had to get that from John.

• 1:08:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:06Speaker 00

  Right? They're trying to get her to admit it on the stand. She won't admit it. I think they are trying to put some of this back on her. And then John's brother, Warren, testified. And during his testimony, John asked to leave the courtroom. Warren, who was convicted of sexually assaulting a 10-year-old boy and a 16-year-old girl in 1980, testified that his mother pushed his grandmother down the stairs during an argument. The judge did not allow the jury to hear their sister Marion's testimony that the same month as the murder, Famalaro told her that Warren molested him as a child. The prosecution

• 1:08:49Speaker 00

  brought up Warren's admissions that he tried to fondle his younger sister a few times and his conviction for sexual assault. The prosecutor asked Warren if he molested his younger brother, which he denied. He did testify, Gibbs, that their mother bathed them until they were 10 and would scrub their genitals.

• 1:09:10Speaker 01

  It's a long time to bathe your kids.

• 1:09:12Speaker 00

  It's a lot of genital scrubbing.

• 1:09:14Speaker 01

  It is a lot of genital scrubbing.

• 1:09:16Speaker 00

  I don't know. I do feel like there was something going on in this family. There's too much smoke, not for there to be some fire. Denise's parents were also witnesses during the penalty phase. During her testimony, Ione Huber held up a large photo of Denise for the jury as a contrast to the autopsy photos that they had to view during the trial. She said, "I want to show you a picture of the real Denise. This is my daughter with her smile and her sense of humor. She brought so much joy to our lives. When she died, so many of my dreams for her died. She had dreams of her own, too. Denise dreamed of getting

• 1:09:56Speaker 00

  married, having a career, and having a family. Dennis recalled how during the three years Denise was missing. They didn't know whether to pack up her things or sell her car. They never celebrated Christmas." The parents' testimony made several jurors and spectators in the courtroom cry, including one of the detectives who worked the case. Even Famalaro's attorney said he was fighting back tears. On June 18th, 1997, the jury recommended the death penalty. On September 5th of that year, a judge formally sentenced Famalaro to death. Judge John Ryan spoke about the terror Denise must have felt in her final

• 1:10:39Speaker 00

  moments. He noted the extraordinary impact the murder had on her parents, who started the nationwide search for their daughter. The judge denied a defense motion for a retrial, said he believed the jury was correct in convicting Famalaro and that the evidence of his guilt was overwhelming. I would agree.

• 1:11:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:11:01Speaker 00

  I mean, based on everything we went through, I just don't see how the jury got it wrong. But the judge discussed the special circumstance allegations, saying Famalaro must have had forcible sex in mind when he took Denise to the warehouse. He said he did believe John suffered during his upbringing and that his mother's control over the children was not normal or healthy.

• 1:11:30Speaker 01

  In no way was it normal.

• 1:11:31Speaker 00

  It didn't seem, like if some of that stuff was true, it definitely was not normal. In 2011, the California Supreme Court upheld his death sentence. However, due to the state's moratorium on executions, he's been on death row for many years. Denise's parents have accepted that he will likely die of old age in prison. They're glad he's in prison, though, where he cannot harm anyone else. Dennis and Ione are now in their late 80s and are still deeply affected by the loss of their daughter. Dennis told A&E in 2026, "There are things that we'll never see, and that is grandchildren from her. I will never

• 1:12:13Speaker 00

  have the opportunity to walk my daughter down the aisle, and that hurts every time I'm at a wedding. But that's not for me, I guess." And that's heartbreaking for me personally. I just walked my daughter down the aisle a few months ago. It was one of the highlights of my life.

• 1:12:31Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:12:32Speaker 00

  And I know you did as well. So that hurts me.

• 1:12:36Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:12:37Speaker 00

  You know, to know that this guy didn't get to do that, will never have grandchildren, tough, tough. He said that John Famalaro took part of my life away. Denise was so special, and we were so close that that part is gone, and he ripped her away from her. So Gibbs, as we wrap up this case, I mean, this guy was monstrous in what he did to Denise. And, you know, at the end of it, I just think that, you know, he found, as he was driving, Denise stranded. He thought, well, she's vulnerable.

• 1:13:15Speaker 01

  Easy target.

• 1:13:16Speaker 00

  Easy target. He probably offered her a ride. Somehow, he got her back to his warehouse.

• 1:13:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:25Speaker 00

  Whether he incapacitated her before that, right, before the drive, whatever it was.

• 1:13:33Speaker 00

  I just don't buy any of the defense arguments that, you know, she went there willingly. He didn't, you know, kidnap her. I just don't buy it. I think he meant to kidnap her. He meant to sexually assault her and he meant to kill her.

• 1:13:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, he did all that on purpose for the sole outcome of he wanted to do exactly that. Rape her and then kill her.

• 1:14:02Speaker 00

  Now, I also think he might've had a jacked up childhood.

• 1:14:04Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure he did. Doesn't give him a reason to do what he did.

• 1:14:08Speaker 00

  No, no, I agree with that, but based on, you know, some of the things he did, some of the things his brother did, some of the things that came out during the penalty phase, you know, having your mother wash your genitals up until you're 10 years old.

• 1:14:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:26Speaker 00

  There, there's something wrong with that.

• 1:14:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure there is. And I also feel like she was not his only victim. I feel like this guy probably dabbled in this a little bit more than just her.

• 1:14:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you. But that's it for our episode on Denise Huber. We got a voicemail. You want to check that out?

• 1:14:45Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:14:46Speaker 02

  Hello, Mike and Gibby. My name is Deanna and I have been meaning to call and leave a message for six years. I started listening to you during COVID. I am a respiratory therapist and I was on the front line and I know that some people might think it's very strange and morbid to unwind with true crime, but honestly, it was probably the only thing that kept me sane was just totally forget it. It was the most horrific time of my life. And I have been meaning for six years to call and leave a message thanking you for being there and keeping me sane. I appreciate everything you do and I'm going to make a

• 1:15:28Speaker 02

  big old donation and I'm a Gibby fan and I'm a Mike fan. You guys really go good together. And that's all. Thank you.

• 1:15:39Speaker 00

  Well, thank you so much, Deanna. We really appreciate it. And we talked about her PayPal donation in the beginning.

• 1:15:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're a big fan of hers.

• 1:15:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, we're a big fan. Thanks for, thanks for all you do.

• 1:15:49Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:15:50Speaker 00

  All right, buddy. That is it for another episode of True Crime All the Time. So for Mike.

• 1:15:54Speaker 01

  And Gibby.

• 1:15:55Speaker 00

  Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.