Pod Insights True Crime All The Time Brian Sugrim About this episode In 1996, Brian Sugrim confessed to his then-girlfriend that he killed a man. In 2003, he told her he killed a woman, and even showed her where he buried the body. She waited years to tell the police out of fear for her and their children’s safety.
Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Brian Sugrim. This is a man who terrorized his wife and family for years, all the while holding some murderous secrets. It took years, but Brian's wife, Bernadette, mustered the courage to go to the police even though she was scared to death of what Brian might do.
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Transcript 11,260 words · 3 speakers
0:34 Speaker 00 Hello everyone and welcome to episode 456 of the True Crime All the Time Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Giv me, how are you?
0:45 Speaker 01 Hey, I'm doing pretty good. How about you?
0:46 Speaker 00 I'm having just an excellent week, man.
0:49 Speaker 01 Excellent Ted, excellent.
0:51 Speaker 00 Yeah, just a lot of, a lot of fun.
0:54 Speaker 01 Yeah.
0:54 Speaker 00 To be honest with you, let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Jennifer Davis.
0:59 Speaker 01 Hey Jennifer.
0:59 Speaker 00 Dan Padilla.
1:00 Speaker 01 Hey Padilla.
1:02 Speaker 00 Summer Dawson.
1:03 Speaker 01 Well, thanks Summer.
1:04 Speaker 00 Laura Auckland.
1:05 Speaker 01 From the famous Auckland, New Zealand.
1:09 Speaker 00 Jennifer Melvin.
1:11 Speaker 01 What's that?
1:12 Speaker 00 Melvin.
1:14 Speaker 00 B Alcorn.
1:16 Speaker 01 Hey B.
1:17 Speaker 00 Jergen Dries.
1:18 Speaker 01 Well, thanks Jergen.
1:19 Speaker 00 Jenna Hewson.
1:21 Speaker 01 Hewson.
1:22 Speaker 00 And last but not least, Debbie Andrew.
1:25 Speaker 01 Oh, thanks Debbie.
1:25 Speaker 00 And then if we go back into the vault.
1:29 Speaker 00 This week, we selected Monica Holloway.
1:31 Speaker 01 Hey Monica.
1:32 Speaker 00 Yeah, so we appreciate the new Patreon support, the continued support. We also had a great PayPal donation from Henry Erkila. And I don't know if I'm saying that correctly, but that's what I'm going with.
1:45 Speaker 01 I'm gonna say it's Erkilia.
1:48 Speaker 00 Okay, I'm sure that's closer.
1:49 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:51 Speaker 00 We have a brand new episode out right now on True Crime All the Time Unsolved. And it's a, it's a strange one for me in particular. Because we're talking about the 2010 murder of Roberta Miller. In her home in New Hampshire. And my mom's married name is Roberta Miller.
2:13 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:14 Speaker 00 So, you know, it is, it freaked me out as I was researching it and all of that. But we'll get into all the details. So make sure you check that out. All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All The Time?
2:27 Speaker 01 I am ready.
2:27 Speaker 00 We're talking about Brian Sugrim. In 1996, Brian confessed to his then girlfriend that he killed a man. In 2003, he told her he killed a woman and even showed her where he buried the body. Now she waited for years to tell the police, but it was out of fear for her and their children's safety. Brian Sugrim was born on February 24th, 1976 to parents Jerry and Janice Sugrim. He is originally from Guyana. In an interview with the Kalamazoo Gazette, he claimed he was a permanent resident of the US and was in the military before he was discharged in lieu of a court martial. However, the Gazette reported he was undocumented.
3:12 Speaker 01 We're gonna let you go instead of court martialing you.
3:16 Speaker 00 Well, I think if you're Brian, that's a pretty good option or anybody else in that situation. Brian's parents ran a house in Sullivan County, New York called Loyalty Lodge, where they cared for patients with AIDS and other illnesses. Brian met his future wife Bernadette Hyde in the mid 90s. She was 16 at the time they met. Bernadette lived in Pennsylvania, near the New York State border. She recalled that one summer she was going to her cousin's house to pick him up. So they could go swimming. Brian just kind of walked out of the woods behind that house. His parents lived nearby.
3:55 Speaker 01 Kind of spooky.
3:57 Speaker 00 Well, it could be, but you know, Bernadette said she was curious about him. It was the first time a guy was interested in her. She noted that she also came from a family of six kids and had never had that kind of individual attention before.
4:14 Speaker 01 I've done something like that before. My second girlfriend, I just kind of walked out of the cornfield.
4:19 Speaker 00 Just scared, scared her?
4:21 Speaker 01 Yeah. And she's like, what are you doing? Like, I was just hanging out with the other children.
4:25 Speaker 00 Of the corn?
4:25 Speaker 01 Yeah.
4:26 Speaker 00 I got you. The two started dating and fell in love. Brian visited Bernadette while she was waiting tables at a restaurant in Pennsylvania, often leaving her love notes during her shift. And I think this is something that, you know, so many people have experienced, you know, kind of that, those beginning stages of love is a very exhilarating time.
4:50 Speaker 01 It really is.
4:51 Speaker 00 You know, the hormones are racing, the, the emotions are intense.
4:58 Speaker 01 The honeymoon phase.
5:00 Speaker 00 The first time Bernadette ever saw Brian being violent was in 1995. He was living with her brothers in New York and caught them smoking marijuana. Brian forced her brothers into a car, then picked up Bernadette and her friend. Bernadette told the Kalamazoo Gazette, "He elbowed my brother's nose with us in his car, and he had a knife to my other brother's throat."
5:25 Speaker 01 All right. Seems like a little tense moment.
5:27 Speaker 00 Yeah. I mean, Brian broke one brother's nose and both of the other brother's legs because he thought they were bad influences on Bernadette.
5:36 Speaker 01 It seems, uh, over the top.
5:39 Speaker 00 You mean the reaction in comparison to the crime, quote unquote, as he viewed it?
5:46 Speaker 01 Yeah.
5:47 Speaker 00 Yeah. You're breaking one kid's nose and a, two of the other guy's legs? Bernadette said she always remembered seeing the look in Brian's eyes for the first time. They were blank, angry. Nothing else matters right now. I don't feel anything else about anybody. It's all about me and what I'm doing.
6:09 Speaker 01 Kind of a creepy look, it sounds like.
6:11 Speaker 00 Yeah, but I also think that experience would be a deal breaker for a lot of people. To see not only that type of violence, but perpetrated against your own family members, your two brothers.
6:26 Speaker 01 I think it would be hard to recover from that.
6:28 Speaker 00 And, and to continue on with the relationship.
6:31 Speaker 01 Yeah.
6:32 Speaker 00 Bernadette said that during their relationship, she saw this expression approximately every 10 days.
6:39 Speaker 01 That's scary.
6:40 Speaker 00 It is, because that's pretty often. But she was in love and she wanted to help Brian become a better person. The incident with her brothers was the first time she realized how much he needed her. She recounted his apology to the Gazette, saying, "He sits down on the front porch, I sit next to him, I end up on his lap because he's crying." He said, "I didn't mean for it to get out of control, but the drugs are so bad for you. I'm a bad person, can you love me anyway?" Bernadette's brothers chose to press charges. Brian fled to Canada to avoid the police. He sent Bernadette letters while he was away
7:21 Speaker 00 and brought up the topic of marriage. She told him he needed to clean up his act first.
7:27 Speaker 01 I would say absolutely he does.
7:29 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, we all know what a big commitment marriage is. I don't think that's the, the one thing you want to have in the back of your mind as you're, you're going into it. Brian eventually came back to the US and turned himself into the police. Bernadette and her mother helped him get a lawyer and he was sentenced to probation.
7:50 Speaker 01 I wonder how the brothers felt about this. Wait, my sister and my mom are helping this guy get an attorney?
7:56 Speaker 00 Well, and my sister's still with him, right? In a relationship after what he did to us, Bernadette's mother, Maria Hyde, said, "She was so in love with him and I knew, no matter what we said, there was no tearing her away from him. I knew I had to wait for her to reach out to me when it came to Brian. So I helped her get a lawyer. My sons were not happy with that."
8:20 Speaker 01 I'm sure they won't.
8:20 Speaker 00 Just like, like you said, one day in 1996, Brian shocked Bernadette by telling her he did something really bad. He claimed he killed someone the night before, but he didn't give any further details at the time. Bernadette told the Gazette, "Part of me was in disbelief with the first murder confession. At that point, I needed to be his savior. It's hard to remember my reaction, but I remember clearly him telling me that." But at that time, life was upside down anyway. So, I mean, we have to talk about this, right? Your significant other comes to you and says, "I did something really bad. I killed someone last night."
9:04 Speaker 00 All right. What are you doing with that information?
9:07 Speaker 01 Yeah, I'm sorry, but I have to go to the authorities.
9:10 Speaker 00 Yeah, I think a lot of people would say that now. And at the very least, you gotta look for a way out of this relationship.
9:18 Speaker 01 Well, for sure. Yeah.
9:19 Speaker 00 And maybe both, right? How do I accomplish both of those things?
9:23 Speaker 01 How can I help this person, but also get myself far, far away from this?
9:28 Speaker 00 Brian became a suspect in the murder of 60-year-old Demetrius Carter, who was found dead on March 1, 1996, in the basement of Brian's parents' house. Brian's father reported Carter missing two days earlier and told police he hadn't been seen since February 26. Carter had been living in the boarding home for about 14 months. A search party looked for Carter. His body was bound with duct tape and rolled in a rug. And my thought is, you know, pretty hard not to say homicide at that point.
10:02 Speaker 01 Right.
10:03 Speaker 00 Based on those details. But it wasn't until later in the 2000s that Brian shared details with Bernadette. According to her, he actually pointed out where he did it, saying, "This was where I killed that guy. I shot him in the head, wrapped him up." His reason, it staggered. But for the first time, he said it was meant to be his father. And then he said he knew this guy had AIDS, no life, and it didn't matter if he lived or died. But she also added, "I think he just wanted to kill somebody."
10:37 Speaker 01 Which is scary.
10:38 Speaker 00 Well, I think anybody like that is scary, right? I mean, people snap in the heat of the moment, right? You walk in on your significant other being unfaithful with someone. Could somebody snap and do something that they regret? Yeah.
10:53 Speaker 01 Of course.
10:54 Speaker 00 Happens all the time. But when you think about somebody just making the conscious decision that, you know, I'd really like to figure out or find out what it feels like to murder someone. That's a much different scenario. I'm, I'm not saying either one of them is good.
11:11 Speaker 01 Right.
11:12 Speaker 00 Brian tried to lead the police to believe his father committed the crime. So son of the year there. Bernadette's mother, Maria, said Brian prepared their family for police interviews. He told them to tell police he was at an abandoned house in Jeffersonville, New York, at the time of the murder. Brian harbored resentment towards his father. He only brought Bernadette to meet his father once before they married. It was a quick visit and Brian spoke privately with his father. When they returned to the car, Brian broke down. But Brian wasn't charged with the murder and the case went cold. So they might've thought it was him, but obviously they didn't have the evidence they needed to move forward with it.
11:57 Speaker 00 He and Bernadette moved into an apartment while she finished high school. They got married on June 22nd, 1997. Bernadette was 19 and Brian was 21.
12:08 Speaker 01 So, I mean, she stayed with him because she loved him. She stayed with him because she wanted to be his savior.
12:16 Speaker 00 Which, which is not uncommon, right? There are people who feel as though in their heart, they can help someone, they can fix someone. And maybe for some, there's even an attraction to that.
12:31 Speaker 01 I think there's a lot of people in relationships out there that are fixers. They think they can make the person they're in a relationship with a better person.
12:41 Speaker 00 Bernadette told the Kalamazoo Gazette that Brian was always controlling, but he gradually became verbally and emotionally abusive. It later escalated into physical abuse. Bernadette suspected Brian was cheating not long after they married. In 1999, Bernadette moved to Florida with a friend, but she didn't file for divorce. Brian followed her and attempted to reconcile. Bernadette became pregnant and about six months into that pregnancy, she realized it wasn't working out. Bernadette said Brian must have been using drugs, but she didn't know at the time. Still, she hoped the baby would be their new beginning.
13:23 Speaker 01 Well, that's a rough thing to bank on. Hoping this new baby will bring us back together.
13:30 Speaker 00 Or closer together. But let's face it, it wouldn't be the first time that that people have tried that.
13:36 Speaker 01 Oh, absolutely. I think that's happened. I know it's happened to people I know. They thought having a baby, having kids would make their marriage better.
13:45 Speaker 00 And maybe sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. All Bernadette ever wanted was to have a family and be a good wife to Brian. Brian told her she rushed things and got pregnant on purpose to trap him. At one point Bernadette threatened to leave if he was not more supportive. In response, Brian bought her a bus ticket and left it on the tape. Bernadette took it and went to New York.
14:09 Speaker 01 He called her bluff?
14:11 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah, he did. I mean, I think you're also getting a real good picture of this guy.
14:18 Speaker 01 Yeah.
14:19 Speaker 00 I mean, number one, he's very cold.
14:23 Speaker 01 Seems so.
14:23 Speaker 00 And we know, as Bernadette has said, you know, he was emotionally abusive.
14:32 Speaker 00 Physically abusive, on top of being verbally abusive. Brian showed up a week before their daughter was born and told her he loved her and they could make it work. Bernadette went into labor on February 24th, 2000. That day, they were visiting the woman who was Brian's unofficial foster mother. They showed up late for their visit, which upset her. Then Brian became upset. He hit his foster mom, threw her on the floor, and as they were struggling, Bernadette's water broke. The foster mother kicked them out of the house. I mean, there's a lot going on here, dude.
15:11 Speaker 01 There is. Wow.
15:13 Speaker 00 Their daughter, Sky, was born the next day.
15:15 Speaker 01 I just think this relationship has a lot of negativity going on with it.
15:22 Speaker 00 Yeah, I'm sure it did. My question is, at what point did it go from some red flags to obviously knowing that it wasn't good to Bernadette becoming fearful to leave? Because she wasn't sure what he would do to her or, you know, the children they had. Most of their belongings were still in Florida, but family in Michigan offered to help. The couple moved to Michigan that year. They first lived with family in Battle Creek. Brian made a plan to burn down the house to get insurance money, so he and Bernadette could buy their own house.
16:05 Speaker 01 Okay.
16:06 Speaker 00 That's a good plan.
16:07 Speaker 01 Yeah.
16:08 Speaker 00 Just not for me, but you know, maybe for some people.
16:11 Speaker 01 I mean, to burn down the house you're staying at so you can get money. Huh.
16:16 Speaker 00 But I think the big thing, Gibbs, is this was the first time Brian threatened to kill her and her family if she told anyone his plans. So I asked the question, right? At what point did the I love you, I want to help you switch to, oh, I'd like to get out of here, but I'm too scared.
16:39 Speaker 01 Yeah.
16:39 Speaker 00 And I think we might be, we're probably getting into that territory. After the fire, they used the money to move into a house in Kalamazoo. No one was ever charged with arson, per the Gazette. But money was always a struggle. Brian never kept a job long and changed his mind often about his career path. Bernadette paid the bills. She couldn't discuss her financial concerns with Brian because he would make it seem like their money problems were her fault. And, you know, is this not a trait that you see with a lot of guys like this? You know, they're not pulling their weight.
17:19 Speaker 00 They're not doing the things that they should be doing to take care of the family. But they're somehow putting it all back on the other person who is actually working and, and holding down a job. And I'm sure taking care of the baby and making dinner and keeping the house clean probably as well.
17:41 Speaker 01 And making her question her own self, like, well, I thought I was doing everything right, but maybe, maybe I'm not.
17:48 Speaker 00 Yeah. Is that, is that the term gaslighting?
17:51 Speaker 01 It is.
17:51 Speaker 00 Okay. I, I thought it was, but I, I'd sometimes get confused on what that is.
17:56 Speaker 01 Yeah.
17:57 Speaker 00 In 2001, Brian's brother, Anil Christopher Suger, was killed in a motorcycle accident. Brian was close with his brother and was deeply affected by his death. After the funeral, Bernadette found piles of empty peppermint schnapps bottles that Brian tried to hide from her. She later learned he was using drugs because he was depressed, but he refused to see a psychologist. Now, I know you drink a lot of peppermint schnapps.
18:27 Speaker 01 I'm a schnapps guy.
18:28 Speaker 00 It's, it's one of your go-tos. Peppermint schnapps would not be my first choice of, of drink.
18:37 Speaker 00 After their son was born, Brian became obsessed with having intelligent children. The family had some good times, which included bike rides and trips to museums, art exhibits and symphonies. But when the kids started grade school, Brian became what was described as overwhelming. In 2003, Brian came to Bernadette with another disturbing confession. He woke her up on September 14th. She could tell that he had been up all night and he seemed pretty shaken up. He said that he had done something real bad. Bernadette recalled, "I knew what he was going to say before he said it, because I had heard it before. He said he killed somebody.
19:22 Speaker 00 He told me he killed the prostitute and he stabbed her to death and that we needed to prepare and he needed to go away for a little while. He even showed her where he dumped the body and said he had burned the victim's clothing and a knife in their backyard fire pit. He also got rid of the family van. But he threatened to kill Bernadette if she ever told anyone about the murder and Bernadette believed he would do it.
19:49 Speaker 01 I'm just amazed that she's still with him, but I know why, right? She's afraid to leave him.
19:54 Speaker 00 Yeah, because I'm telling you what, when, you know, she says, "I believed he would do it." I don't know how you couldn't believe that this guy would do it. He's already confessed to multiple murders. He has shown her repeatedly how vicious he could be to her, right? Verbally, emotionally, physically. She has to be scared. And now there's kids in the picture.
20:21 Speaker 01 Yeah, so she can't even worry about her. She has to worry about the kids.
20:26 Speaker 00 After his confession, Brian went to New York and stayed with Bernadette's sister for six weeks. Bernadette lied and told her family. They separated. At Brian's direction, she reported the van stolen to the insurance company. Brian called Bernadette to ask if there were any news reports on the victim or if anyone came by the house. Looking for him. And it was through these news reports that Bernadette learned the victim's name. On September 14th, 2003, 39-year-old Linda K. Gibson was found in a secluded industrial area east of Palmer Avenue in Kalamazoo's Edison neighborhood, not far from Brian's house.
21:08 Speaker 00 Her nude body was found under a board and other debris. Investigators believed her body was posed. Lab specialist Brett Appelgrin later testified, per the Kalamazoo Gazette, "The legs were splayed out in almost a position where she'd be giving birth. Both sides of the upper thighs were heavily slashed, cut extremely deep. Once we removed the cement block, we could see her head had been smashed with that block and had been cut extremely deeply." This was rage. And, you know, by that description, it's a very gruesome crime scene. You think about slashing someone very deeply.
21:52 Speaker 01 Yeah.
21:53 Speaker 00 But then also smashing their head with a, like a cement cinder type block? That's, that's nasty.
22:00 Speaker 01 It's a lot of anger.
22:02 Speaker 00 Investigators determined the murder occurred in a different location due to a lack of blood at the crime scene and the fact that it appeared the body was clean. The medical examiner noted that two deep lacerations on Linda's inner thighs, one of which was almost two inches deep, were carved while she was still alive. Linda also suffered stab wounds to the chest, blunt force trauma to the head, and her throat was cut. But indicators of rape were not present on her body. It was possible she was strangled, but unconfirmed because there was no hemorrhage or bleeding under the skin.
22:41 Speaker 01 But it's all brutal.
22:42 Speaker 00 Oh, absolutely. Even more so now that I've read additional details, right? Throat cut, more stab wounds. Obviously, we know about the blunt force trauma to the head. Cement found in Linda's body came from a man the police identified as one of her clients. There were numerous suspects, including a pimp, but the murder remained unsolved. And Bernadette kept the secret.
23:10 Speaker 01 In fear of her life.
23:11 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, I don't think there's any way around it. Now, could she have made the decision to go to police? Yes, absolutely, she could have, but I could also see how she would have been scared to death. I know what this guy is capable of. What chances am I really willing to take, not only with my life, but with the children's lives?
23:37 Speaker 01 Yeah, because we know he can come unhinged.
23:39 Speaker 00 Well, I think it's easy for, you know, if we wanted to sit here and say, well, we would go to the police. But we don't know that because I don't think you and I have ever been in that position. I know I haven't.
23:53 Speaker 01 You're right.
23:53 Speaker 00 I'm speaking for you because I don't think you've ever been in that position either. So we can't say what we would do.
24:01 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean, he's conditioned her to be fearful.
24:05 Speaker 00 And for good reason. I also was thinking about, you know, this woman, Linda. She was a sex worker, murdered, and the police find, you know, semen in inside her body. That's another danger of visiting sex workers. You know, if you're a John, right, you could be linked to some type of crime.
24:30 Speaker 01 Could be, yeah.
24:32 Speaker 00 I don't know how many people think about that, but according to a later affidavit, Brian told Bernadette he killed Linda because she looked like her.
24:43 Speaker 01 How you take that?
24:44 Speaker 00 Uh, as in you want to kill me, but you can't, so you're finding a surrogate?
24:51 Speaker 01 Well, if you weren't scared by that point, you would be.
24:55 Speaker 00 Afterwards.
24:56 Speaker 01 Yeah.
24:56 Speaker 00 Yeah. Bernadette said, I learned to not let it eat away at me. I put it out of my mind. I couldn't survive if I thought about it all the time. And I get that because that's kind of something that you would think would just kind of eat away at you. You know, how do you compartmentalize? How do you shove that down? And obviously she had to figure out a way. In 2005, the family moved into a new home in Kalamazoo, where they remained until Brian's arrest. That year, Brian sent Bernadette to the Kalamazoo Sheriff's Office to get a license to purchase a handgun. Since he couldn't, she saw a poster asking for information about the murder of Linda Gibson.
25:39 Speaker 00 Bernadette wanted to scream that she knew who did it, but she couldn't. And by this time, Bernadette and the children experienced both psychological and physical abuse often. Bernadette's daily goal was to avoid setting her husband off, but his temper was getting worse and worse. He broke household items in his fits of rage. After the family dog ran out of the yard, Brian shot the dog in the head in front of Bernadette and the kids.
26:11 Speaker 01 That's just messed up. One, you heard an innocent animal.
26:16 Speaker 00 Your animal.
26:17 Speaker 01 Yeah, your pet.
26:18 Speaker 00 Your pet.
26:19 Speaker 01 But then you did it in front of your kids. That's going to mess them up.
26:25 Speaker 00 Because you know they love that dog. I'm sure Bernadette loved that dog. Yeah, I don't know, man. You talk about being sadistic and torturous. The first time Brian beat Bernadette was when she didn't answer the cell phone he'd recently purchased for her. He hit her repeatedly and told her she needed to live up to his standards. If she didn't, he would kill her and make it seem like an accident. Afterwards, he told her he loved her and they could move past it. And I think, you know, this is kind of a, like a common theme with people like that.
27:01 Speaker 01 Sure it is.
27:02 Speaker 00 You know, I'm doing horrible things to you, but then I'm apologizing and I'm trying to make it all better. Yet I'm just going to turn around and do horrible things to you again. And it's just like a vicious cycle.
27:17 Speaker 01 But then I'm also going to say, I'll look past this and we'll move on. Like, is he trying to blame it on her? Like, this is your fault. I'm going to look past it and we'll move on because I want to stay with you.
27:30 Speaker 00 Yeah, it's, it's very narcissistic, right? To me.
27:34 Speaker 01 Yeah.
27:35 Speaker 00 Brian once woke Bernadette up by pointing a shotgun at her head. He brought her to the dining room and waved the gun around while ranting about all the things she wasn't doing right. Brian also strictly controlled the family's daily life. He required Bernadette and the kids to carry a knife for self-defense. He trained in martial arts and he kept knives, swords and guns in the home.
28:00 Speaker 01 Scary.
28:01 Speaker 00 What was said every Monday, he made his family practice kickboxing for about three hours. And he didn't care that he hit Bernadette hard enough to leave bruises. He even made the kids fight each other and threatened to punch them if they took it too easy on each other.
28:20 Speaker 01 It kind of reminds me of the, uh, the, uh, the accountant?
28:23 Speaker 00 Yeah, I was thinking the exact same thing.
28:26 Speaker 01 Yeah.
28:26 Speaker 00 The father in that was pretty rough on the boys.
28:30 Speaker 01 Yeah, he was.
28:31 Speaker 00 And they both turned out to be assassins, not to give the movie away, but.
28:36 Speaker 01 I mean, most families have like movie Monday.
28:40 Speaker 00 Game night.
28:40 Speaker 01 Game night.
28:41 Speaker 00 Taco Tuesday.
28:44 Speaker 01 But not, uh, kickboxing Monday.
28:47 Speaker 00 Well, this is every night, three hours of kickboxing?
28:50 Speaker 01 It's, it's, uh, it's a lot of kickboxing going on on the Mondays.
28:55 Speaker 00 And it sounds like, you know, he's kickboxing Bernadette and beating the you know what out of her and then having the kids fight each other. Bernadette and the kids learned how to appease Brian, the best they could. They kept to a strict routine. Bernadette took the kids to school before Brian woke up because he got irritated by noise. She scheduled parent conferences for times he couldn't attend. The kids had to complete lessons in their notebooks every morning. Bernadette always checked them because if the kids made an error on something they'd covered before, they would get a beating.
29:34 Speaker 01 Very strict dad.
29:36 Speaker 00 Bernadette said that Brian would whip the kids with a belt two or three times, but when they started to pull away, he kept going. If they hid behind her, she would get whipped too. If she intervened, Brian hit harder.
29:51 Speaker 01 Wow.
29:52 Speaker 00 So this guy is a POS of the highest order.
29:56 Speaker 01 He is.
29:56 Speaker 00 I mean, he is just a nasty, nasty person to his wife and kids. This is aside from the fact that he has told her he's murdered two people.
30:07 Speaker 01 Just physically abusive.
30:09 Speaker 00 According to Bernadette, he called us pieces of shit, sluts, bastards. He told us, "In this moment, I hate you." He had no qualms about saying that. And afterwards, he'd say, "I love you." But that doesn't mean I don't mean what I said. I did hate you. What he said verbally hurt more than the hitting.
30:30 Speaker 01 There's the verbal abuse, right? And that mentally can really mess people up.
30:34 Speaker 00 Oh, and the back and forth. "I hate you. I hate you. I hate you. I love you. You're a piece of you know what, but I love you and we'll get past the things that you are doing." Because I'm perfect.
30:46 Speaker 01 Yeah, exactly.
30:47 Speaker 00 I'm not doing anything wrong. I'm trying to live with the mistakes you're making. In October 2009, Bernadette was picking up Brian's family from the airport when she had a heart attack. She was clinically dead for seven minutes and was on a breathing machine for four days. She had never had heart problems before and believes it was caused by stress.
31:11 Speaker 01 Surprise she didn't get in trouble for having a heart attack.
31:13 Speaker 00 Well, I mean, let's talk about stress. You know, as we're going through these details, I can only imagine her stress level. You know, you we use that term walking on eggshells.
31:27 Speaker 01 Right.
31:27 Speaker 00 This is walking on eggshells. You do not know when this man is going to fly into a rage. And I would imagine that would be about as stressful as it gets.
31:40 Speaker 01 And it's no way to live.
31:42 Speaker 00 Terrible way to live. While she was in the hospital, Brian's sister left a letter in her dresser begging her to leave him. She never saw Brian's sister, mother, or brother again. So that's interesting, right? Brian's sister obviously has some inkling of what's going on because she's saying, hey, you need to leave my brother.
32:05 Speaker 01 Yeah, he's bad news for you.
32:08 Speaker 00 But this marked a turning point for Bernadette. She asked Brian for divorce. He agreed to think about it and said she could leave, but the kids had to stay with him. Bernadette didn't want to leave them. Brian also told her that if she left, he would kill her and it would mess up the legacy for the children. I mean, you want to talk about a no win situation. You're making the move to leave.
32:33 Speaker 01 Right.
32:33 Speaker 00 But he is saying, okay, you can leave, but the kids can't go. At the same time, he's also saying that if she does leave, I'll kill you. So that's not really, yeah, you can leave.
32:46 Speaker 01 Yeah, he's just trying to put more fear into her.
32:48 Speaker 00 And there's no way she's going to leave the kids behind and leave them alone with this guy. In the spring of 2011, Bernadette gave a sealed letter to a friend so that if she died, someone would know Brian had threatened her, had killed before, had a fake identity, and was a danger to the kids. Her friend never opened the letter. Bernadette said she started sleeping with a loaded gun under her pillow. Their daughter, Sky, asked if they could leave Brian, but she told her he was sick and needed them. Bernadette also told Sky that if she ever felt like they were in danger, she needed to run and get help. And my other thought, Gibbs, is, you know, as these kids get older,
33:33 Speaker 00 they're seeing more and more, their, their understanding has to be greater of how wrong all of this stuff really is. To the point where, you know, Sky is saying, hey, we need to get out of here.
33:48 Speaker 01 Yeah.
33:49 Speaker 00 Sky did run for help on May 16th, 2011. Bernadette came home from work and found Brian and their son doing martial arts training like they always did on Mondays. She saw that her daughter was strapped to the family dog's back with a belt. Sky said Brian was punishing her because she couldn't get the family dog to submit to her.
34:13 Speaker 01 What is wrong with this guy?
34:15 Speaker 00 Well, according to Bernadette, he beat Sky with a karate stick across the back. He said, you're going to submit the dog. You're going to submit the effing dog, or I'm going to hit you. Brian hit their daughter 75 to 100 times with the karate stick and at one point dragged her into the garage and slammed her against the wall.
34:40 Speaker 01 You know, this karate stick, I'm assuming it's like a bow.
34:43 Speaker 00 Yeah, or a Kubaton. I mean, there's all kinds of different names for some of these things.
34:48 Speaker 01 Up to 100 times? Are you kidding me?
34:51 Speaker 00 Well, I can see it in your face. You want to be left alone in a room with this guy for 20 minutes.
34:58 Speaker 01 Yeah.
34:59 Speaker 00 Because. This is just horrible, what he's doing to his family. But Sky escaped and called 911. Deputies arrived and arrested Brian. Bernadette told a responding officer, if you don't take him into custody, he will kill us all before the night is through. And that night, while at the hospital with her daughter, Bernadette told the police about Brian's past confessions. Authorities started an investigation and shared Bernadette's statement with New York authorities. Police searched the family's former home on May 31st, 2011. Officers removed items from the old fire pit, including buttons, a watch, and a burned knife.
35:43 Speaker 00 They also took a brick, a rope, and a wallboard from the garage with a stain on it.
35:49 Speaker 01 Luckily, they could still find these things.
35:51 Speaker 00 Yeah, well, you know, let's face it, burning stuff in a pit or a barrel or whatever, doesn't completely always get rid of it. Now, it is still kind of amazing that it's still there, right? Somebody didn't scoop it up, throw it away. Somebody later on who bought the house. In June, police sought warrants to obtain Brian's student records from Western Michigan University and records from the university bookstore and library. Police sought similar records for Brian and his deceased brother Anil from Kalamazoo Valley Community College. Brian attended both schools between 2003 and 2011 and had assumed his brother's identity.
36:36 Speaker 00 So essentially, there's nothing that this guy is, you know, not willing to do. On July 11th, 2011, Brian was sentenced to 56 months to 10 years in prison after pleading no contest to assault with intent to do great bodily harm, less than murder for attacking his daughter. Charges of felonious assault, child abuse, and domestic violence were dismissed. In that same day, he was arraigned on one count of first degree murder.
37:08 Speaker 01 Well, I guess it's good, right? The first case, I mean, it's less than five years, but it gets him. Locked up where they can keep an eye on them.
37:15 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, it's essentially what five to 10 years is what he got. I think it could have been a lot more if the, you know, felonious assault, child abuse, domestic violence charges weren't dismissed, but maybe that was needed to get him to plead guilty and not fight it. And they may have also thought, well, we're, we're going after this bigger, you know, charge anyway.
37:42 Speaker 01 Right.
37:43 Speaker 00 At a pre-trial hearing in August, Bernadette testified that Brian admitted he killed the man in the mid 90s in his parents' home. He admitted to killing Linda Gibson in 2003, but she never came forward because she feared he would kill her, her family and their kids. At one point, the prosecutor asked Bernadette why Brian would want to kill her. She answered, because I reminded him of stupidity. But Bernadette testified that Brian told her he couldn't kill her because he needed me to raise the children. So it's kind of going back to this idea that he really did want to kill her, but felt as though he couldn't.
38:29 Speaker 00 So he found another woman to take his anger out that he had, you know, for his wife.
38:38 Speaker 01 Yeah. Because substitute.
38:41 Speaker 00 At the hearing, Bernadette testified that Brian said he killed Linda in the family van before he dumped her body. Her testimony confirmed authorities' belief that the murder occurred elsewhere. Brian cleaned the van with bleach and had a friend crush the vehicle. It was never found. Brian's attorney asked Bernadette why she didn't contact the police while Brian was in New York in the fall of 2003. Bernadette said, I was afraid he would hurt me, my children or my family. He was in New York where all my family lives and he has told me he would kill them. Bernadette testified about the May 16, 2011 incident and said she finally talked to the
39:23 Speaker 00 police because I knew if he got out, he would hurt us and he would kill us, all of us. And, you know, I think it's very tough. I know a defense attorney has to do it. But, you know, to question this woman who has been the recipient of just, you know, this awful, awful behavior, like we detailed out, right? Verbal, emotional, physical abuse. The kids were also recipients of that as well. Yeah, you, you're gonna have to ask the question. But I think a lot of people listening will sympathize with this woman. What she went through and how scared she probably was.
40:07 Speaker 00 That if she did go to the police, he would make good on all his threats. Bernadette also spoke about the letter she gave to a friend weeks before the May incident. It said in part, "My husband, Brian Suger, has threatened my life. If he succeeds, he would make it look like an accident or suicide. I'm telling you this because my children are not safe with him. My children fear him and say and do anything to keep him happy. I have no choice but to stay and try to make the best of it." In August 2011, Arthur Hawker, chief of patrol for the Sullivan County Sheriff's Office in New York, said, "Police exhausted leads in the Demetrius Carter murder case
40:51 Speaker 00 and the investigation had not been active until after Brian was arrested." Hawker declined to say if Brian was a suspect or if Brian was previously a person of interest, but did say Brian's parents and other men in the home were interviewed. In an affidavit for a search warrant, a senior investigator with the New York State Police told Kalamazoo Detective Greg Cordes that Brian was the prime suspect in the Carter case and the police found he had purchased books on how to kill people.
41:25 Speaker 01 How to kill people? Wow. Well, I guess you can get a book on almost anything, so.
41:30 Speaker 00 You can.
41:31 Speaker 01 Kind of hard to hide it, though, if you go to the library and check one out.
41:35 Speaker 00 Or if you buy it on Amazon or, you know, some type of website. Probably not that hard for police to go back and, and dig that up.
41:48 Speaker 00 At one point, Brian was supposed to take a polygraph, but declined after purchasing a book on how to pass a polygraph. So I don't know if he was an avid reader, but he obviously read some books that had to do with, with some of the things he was dealing with, you know, how to murder people, how to pass a polygraph. Brian did a prison interview with the Kalamazoo Gazette in November 2011, where he admitted he was one of the last people to see Linda Gibson alive. He also said he was fully aware of what he faced, but was confident he'd be acquitted. He said he purchased drugs from Linda in the early hours of September 14th, 2003.
42:33 Speaker 00 At the time, he knew her as Candy. He smoked meth the night before and stayed up all night, practicing kickboxing in his garage. I don't know if that's a common thing, Gibbs, to smoke meth and then, you know, get your kickboxing practice in. Maybe it is. I don't know. I've never tried meth. Not planning on it.
42:57 Speaker 01 It's probably good that you don't.
42:58 Speaker 00 Yeah, I do have an addictive personality, so I do try to stay away from certain things.
43:04 Speaker 01 Well, yeah, maybe, you know, for him, it made him want to do something, and that was the kickboxing.
43:11 Speaker 00 He said he left home before 6:00 a.m. and drove around, eventually spotting Linda on Stockbridge Avenue. She got into his van and they talked about whether she could hook him up. He drove her to the corner of Reed and March Streets. She got out and told him to meet her near Tower Automotive on Palmer Avenue. He was sitting in his van, smoking and drinking beer. When Linda walked up with a man she referred to as D or T, Linda and the man got into his van. He and Linda began taking hits off her crack pipe as the drugs took effect. The man who showed up with Linda pulled out a gun and put it to his head. This scared Linda, and she got out of the van
43:55 Speaker 00 and began walking towards the railroad. Tracks, the man told Brian, he got lucky, then got out of the van and began following Linda. He never saw either of them again. He drove around and then went home. Okay. So, you know, here again, a story that a defendant, you know, has to craft. Yeah, I was with Linda, but she brought somebody else along. This guy pulled a gun. Linda hopped out of the van and this guy went after her. He didn't harm me. He went after Linda.
44:28 Speaker 01 Yeah, just deflect this whole thing over to this other mystery guy.
44:32 Speaker 00 And then after Linda's body was found, Brian was afraid the police would identify him as a suspect, just like they did in New York. He explained his thoughts at the time by saying, don't bring yourself forward because they will stop with you. I don't trust the cops. I knew exactly where that investigation would stop and it would stop at me. Instead, according to Brian, he and Bernadette made a plan for him to leave town. He took the van to New York. He stayed for a week and returned home. Bernadette kept track of the case through the news reports, but he didn't read them because he didn't want to know the specifics of how Linda died. Brian explained, in me, it would have brought it too close.
45:16 Speaker 00 I would have felt a personal responsibility. I feel bad for the way it all happened. I wish she hadn't died, but I didn't kill her. He also said he had no confirmation of the identity of the woman found dead, but he assumed it was Linda because he had seen her near that location. And as I said before, right? He said he didn't know her real name until 2011. But to me, you know, this guy saying, well, I didn't know, I didn't want to know, right? The specifics of how she died, that would have brought it home. I would have felt personally responsible. You were personally responsible.
45:52 Speaker 01 That's why you would have felt that way.
45:55 Speaker 00 Well, you didn't need the specifics because you already knew them. That's part of it. But, you know, it's just, it's just a bunch of horse doovers. That's, that's all it is.
46:06 Speaker 01 Horse what?
46:07 Speaker 00 Horse doovers.
46:07 Speaker 01 Okay. Haven't been around any horse doovers for a while.
46:11 Speaker 00 Not that you know of.
46:13 Speaker 01 Well, that's true.
46:15 Speaker 00 Brian briefly returned to Kalamazoo so he could get rid of the van. He returned to New York and stayed until October 2003. He declined to elaborate on what happened to the van, only telling the Gazette, "The van no longer exists." When asked why he went to such lengths to leave town and get rid of the van, Brian said he acted out of fear after what he went through in New York. When asked if he did anything with Linda in his van, other than drugs, he declined to comment, but said she was a sex worker.
46:48 Speaker 01 Okay, kind of just leaving that open for the imagination?
46:53 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, you know, I think a lot of times when people decline to comment, you can read between the lines, but it's also, you know, this whole thing of, you know, why did you need to clean the van? Why did you need to crush the van and, and literally get rid of its existence?
47:11 Speaker 01 Right.
47:12 Speaker 00 Because you were fearful the police were going to pin it on you? Or you knew most likely that there was probably DNA in there?
47:21 Speaker 01 Yeah, evidence.
47:23 Speaker 00 Brian claimed that he returned home in October 2003. He stopped drinking and using drugs and began pursuing a master's degree. He was working at Western Michigan University as an airplane mechanic before he was arrested. So he's got to throw some good stuff in there, right? Hey, I stopped drinking. I stopped using drugs. I'm going after my master's degree. I've got a job.
47:48 Speaker 01 I'm a better man. I'm a model citizen.
47:50 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, that's what he wants the jury to believe, right? He denied telling his wife that he killed Linda and denied abusing his family, other than the May 2011 incident. He claimed he recalled very little, but didn't deny that it happened. He was on medication from nose surgery and pain medicine Bernadette gave him. Brian said, "It happened. We got there. I'm just not exactly sure how. I thought I had spanked her." So again, who is he blaming for this whole thing? Bernadette.
48:25 Speaker 01 Sure, yeah.
48:26 Speaker 00 Bernadette gave me this pain medicine and then after that, I don't remember anything.
48:30 Speaker 01 I thought I spanked her. I didn't realize that I hit her 100 times with the karate stick.
48:36 Speaker 00 And it never fails to amaze me how, you know, people's memories are fuzzy when it comes to, you know, certain things, but in others, they're crystal clear. You know, when he's telling the story of why he couldn't have killed Linda, he's crystal clear, right? On all the things. But when it comes to this 2011 incident, he's very fuzzy. And he's also blaming the, the bulk of it on Bernadette. He also claimed that Bernadette had a medical incident in 2009 that affected her brain and caused her to have what he called blended memories.
49:20 Speaker 00 He said, "My wife has adopted an entirely altered reality. She's given three different versions of what happened. I would tell her she's not telling the truth." He claimed he and Bernadette rarely argued before the incident, but her conditions strained their relationship and his relationship with the children. So he is really making himself out to be the good guy.
49:44 Speaker 01 Sure he is.
49:45 Speaker 00 He's making Bernadette out to be, you know, a person who doesn't really know what reality is. Brian's trial started on February 8th, 2012. Prosecutor Stuart Fenton told the jury that Brian killed Linda Gibson in his family van. Understanding why required insight into his mind. Felton said, "The defendant thinks extremely highly of himself. He doesn't tolerate stupidity. He doesn't suffer fools." In his own words, he said, "Evil cannot thrive without stupidity. His form of evil is counting on your stupidity." Fenton also described Bernadette's testimony as 100% credible.
50:29 Speaker 01 That's a lot of confidence.
50:30 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, 100% is, is pretty high. Defense attorney Robert Champion emphasized that Bernadette had repeated opportunities to go to police and never did. And on the surface of that statement, it is true, right? I'm sure she did have many opportunities to go. But I think you also have to factor in the fear for her safety, the fear for, you know, the safety of her children.
50:58 Speaker 00 Kalamazoo Department of Public Safety Assistant Chief Carrie Ann Thomas testified that Linda's body was posed for a shocking effect. Authorities also questioned the lack of blood at the crime scene. Mark Bush, a mechanic and former security guard at Parker Abax near the Palmer Avenue crime scene, provided blurry images of vehicles that passed the site on September 13th. He identified more than one image as a van or SUV. Eddie Shah, who previously owned an asphalt plant near the site, saw a van going near the area where Linda was found around 8:00 a.m. on September 14th, then heading in the opposite
51:38 Speaker 00 direction less than a half hour later. Brandy Davis, a former sex worker who went by the name Candy, testified that she and Linda were with clients earlier in the night before getting into Brian's van on September 14th, 2003. Brian was a regular client on the street. Brian was driving and Linda was in the passenger seat. Davis wasn't sure when the conversation went sour, but she knew it happened when they were parked behind factories in the Edison neighborhood. Davis testified per the Gazette, "We thought we were making more money. I saw my friend get out and the next thing I know, she was laying on the ground. I left her there fighting with him and it's the last time I saw Linda. I saw
52:23 Speaker 00 a silver shiny object when he reached in his back pocket." Davis said she was swinging and fighting and I got out and opened the side of the van and took off running and left her there fighting him. When I turned around, he was on top of her. He's the last person I saw a Linda alive with. Davis, though, admitted to lying to the police about the Gibson case multiple times. She acknowledged that in one interview, she said the killer was her ex because she wanted him out of her life. When asked if she felt guilty, she said, "I was a prostitute. The only thing I cared about was my next fix. I was using drugs all day, every day. I ran out on my best friend." According to Davis,
53:07 Speaker 00 Linda was wearing blue Gap shorts and a wristwatch the night she was killed. Lead investigator Greg Cortez testified that when the police searched the fire pit in the former family home, they found a small watch face, buckles, and Gap buttons, as well as the remnants of a knife. When asked whether Davis admitted to him that she was there the night of the murder, he said, "He didn't ask. She didn't tell me she saw the murder, and she didn't deny it. My purpose was to see if she knew Sue Graham and if she had information." So, you know, I think it's pretty damning, right? It puts Linda in the van with Brian. Now, does this woman lose some credibility because she was caught lying, caught trying
53:52 Speaker 00 to blame her ex-boyfriend because she wanted him out of her life? Yeah, probably so. I think anytime you're caught lying, you lose credibility.
54:00 Speaker 01 Yeah, I don't know how you can't.
54:02 Speaker 00 But I also get the sense that she feels very remorseful, that, you know, she left her friend there, fighting with this guy, and her friend later ended up dead. Cortez testified that Bernadette gave him access to Brian's safe. He found documents showing that Brian stole his brother Anil Christopher Sue Graham's identity. He had a social security card in Anil's name, but with Brian's photo on it, which was signed in 2011. Brian had also opened and used a bank account in his brother's name and was enrolled in the Kalamazoo Valley Community College. And why would he do this? Gibbs?
54:44 Speaker 00 I mean, people who have nothing to hide, who have done nothing wrong, don't assume their brother's identity.
54:53 Speaker 01 No, because you wouldn't have to.
54:55 Speaker 00 There'd be no need to. Obviously, there was a need to in his mind.
55:00 Speaker 01 The Escape Plan.
55:01 Speaker 00 Cortez testified that he read the book Kill Without Joy, the complete how to kill book. After he found evidence Brian had read it. According to Cortez, the book really concentrates on attempting to get away with it. And I saw things in that book that are consistent with this case. It talked about the proper way to stab and kill people in the quickest way. The types of cuts found on Linda's body, especially a cut behind her knee, were mentioned in the book. And this guy is reading the wrong books.
55:35 Speaker 01 That's for sure.
55:36 Speaker 00 Or at the very least, he is leaving a trail of evidence that he, you know, either bought or read these books. Bernadette testified about Brian's two confessions, the years of abuse she suffered and read letters Brian sent to her from prison. One letter said, Bernadette, I will always love you. Don't be so foolish as to abandon everything, even the good things, because you were afraid in the moment. One day you'll realize you could have done things differently and experienced a different future. You were the greatest gift God put in our lives. Another letter said, be aware, you don't have to testify against your spouse.
56:19 Speaker 00 I'm afraid of all of the skeletons that could come tumbling from our closet if you are cross-examined by an attorney. He asked her to think about the memories their children would have of them when they were gone and said, the kids do not deserve to bear the costs of our mistakes. And I like to use the word our there.
56:40 Speaker 01 Yeah.
56:41 Speaker 00 He, I mean, this man, time and time again, put most, if not all of the blame somehow on her.
56:50 Speaker 01 Yeah, there's no way he's going to own up to it all by himself.
56:54 Speaker 00 He seems to be owning up to very little. Bernadette read a third letter that said, you're being used. You're getting effed from so many different directions and you know it. I didn't kill Linda Gibson and nothing can bring her back. If I hadn't towards the van, they would have pinned the murder on me for sure. Please retract the lies you told of me in our history. These people are going to try to kill me and ruin my reputation forever.
57:22 Speaker 01 If I didn't burn the van, but the only reason. That would be true is because her DNA would be in there.
57:30 Speaker 00 And something really bad happened inside that vein.
57:33 Speaker 01 Yeah, but he's trying to do what he always does and he's trying to blame her, make her feel bad, put it on her. How can you do this to me?
57:41 Speaker 00 Yeah, it's not just deflecting, right? A lot of people deflect. This is deflect and then also blame her for everything. I also like the line that these people are going to try to ruin my reputation.
57:54 Speaker 01 Yeah.
57:55 Speaker 00 What reputation do you have?
57:57 Speaker 01 You don't have a good one.
57:59 Speaker 00 It's in the dumper. I mean, nobody likes you. Your own family's scared to death of you. The jury also heard from Brian's daughter, Sky, who said, "We had to do everything perfect and we were always scared. We had to keep him happy and we did whatever we had to, to do that. He would yell, curse, and say rude names to me and my mother. It varied on the situation. Little things would displease him, like not doing a lesson on Rosetta Stone, or the dishes not being washed." She testified about the May 2011 incident, as well as witnessing two of their dogs being shot in the head, her father shaving her head because of lice,
58:43 Speaker 00 and being punished for not keeping her brother out of trouble. Sky also testified, "He would say that if there is ever a problem and someone needed to be killed, he would do that. He didn't tell us about Linda Gibson or Demetrius, the man murdered in New York. He didn't tell us that he has killed people." And obviously, you have to feel for this girl.
59:06 Speaker 01 Sure you do.
59:07 Speaker 00 And her brother as well. I mean, I think they both went through terrible, horrible things.
59:13 Speaker 01 I mean, their dad's a monster.
59:15 Speaker 00 And they lived through it. Tamara Hyde testified that she and her family lived with the Sugrim's more than once, and at Bernadette's request, moved back in. When Brian went to New York in the fall of 2003, the couple claimed they were having marital problems. After Brian returned from Michigan, Tamara said they had a flag system in which he asked her to lower the flag in the front yard if someone, such as a police officer, was looking for him. Okay. You know, people who haven't done anything wrong don't need a flag system or an alert system.
59:53 Speaker 01 Uh, but we had that one alert system where you put something in the window to alert me.
59:58 Speaker 00 I have an alert system where my wife alerts me if you get too close to the house on a day you're not supposed to be here, but that's for a totally different reason. I mean, he, he just, he makes himself look guilty with all of these different, you know, things he did. She testified that Brian often gave his family direction and what they did and acted differently when they were in his presence, making sure he would find it fit. The kids would act less like children and more like adults and Bernadette would end mid-conversation when he was around if she didn't think he'd approve it.
1:00:36 Speaker 01 And she even had to worry about the conversations.
1:00:39 Speaker 00 Yeah, I, I, I think it just further sheds light on, you know, what kind of situation she was living in, the kids were living in. Again, going back to that walking on eggshells. Bernadette's cousin, Michael Hyde testified that Brian threw his pocket knife in the backyard fire pit in October 2003 in letters Brian sent him from jail. Brian claimed the knife police found in the fire pit belonged to Hyde. So he's not above throwing anybody else under the bus. Neighbor and friend Tammy Hibner recalled Brian breaking down during a private conversation with her and her ex-boyfriend in 2004. He just switched from gleeful to, man, I'm so screwed up.
1:01:24 Speaker 00 He started crying and saying it should have been him to die rather than his brother. He said, I'm the evil one. He's the good one. I've done awful things.
1:01:34 Speaker 01 Well, yeah, you have.
1:01:36 Speaker 00 Yeah. I mean, it's not specific, but who says that kind of stuff? The defense didn't call any witnesses and Brian didn't testify. And when, you know, the defense doesn't call witnesses, I'm always kind of like, well, who are they going to call? This guy has nobody left.
1:01:53 Speaker 01 Yeah, there's nobody that likes him.
1:01:55 Speaker 00 There's nobody that's going to say good things about him. So, I mean, I think as far as character witnesses, you're, you're probably SOL.
1:02:03 Speaker 01 And you certainly don't want to put him up on the stand.
1:02:06 Speaker 00 No, because he's just going to tell a bunch of lies and a smart prosecutor is probably going to catch him.
1:02:11 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:02:12 Speaker 00 In a lie. In closing arguments prosecutor Stuart Fenton asked the jury, why would he get rid of the van if he didn't kill Linda? And if you believe his preposterous interview with the Gazette, they did drugs in the van, not murder, there would be no physical evidence of a murder there. And I think that's kind of what we were talking about, right? This getting rid of the van thing, to me is so damning because, you know, as he said, well, they were going to pin it on me. Well, how can they pin it on you if there's nothing in the van that proves anything bad happened?
1:02:46 Speaker 01 Yeah. The reason you get rid of the van is so they can't find the things that they could use against you.
1:02:52 Speaker 00 Fenton reminded the jury, they had enough evidence to convict Brian based on the testimony of his wife. Fenton also alluded to transcripts of interviews with investigators during which Brian said that if he were a juror, he'd find himself guilty. Okay, not a great thing for a defendant to say.
1:03:10 Speaker 01 No. It's not how you want to put that out there.
1:03:14 Speaker 00 Defense attorney Robert Champion said almost every piece of evidence was either disputable or irrelevant, including the knife and clothing remnants buried in the old fire pit. Champion asked the jury to be wary of Bernadette's story because she had years to tell the police what she knew and didn't. Champion said all she had to do, if she was so afraid when he left for New York in 2003, was go to police. Not different than what she did. She had a home, she had a phone, she worked, she knew how to use a weapon, she was trained in martial arts, she took vacations by herself, she asked for a divorce, she left him several
1:03:55 Speaker 00 times and said she acknowledged there were no physical abuse until after the children were abused. She wanted Brian out of her life. She can get away and not be charged with anything from insurance fraud to child abuse. Again, I understand why the defense attorney is saying those things.
1:04:14 Speaker 01 Sure.
1:04:15 Speaker 00 But to me, it's, it's just a, it's too much of a simplified argument.
1:04:21 Speaker 00 When in, in reality, I think it's much more complex. Just because she went on vacations by herself, just because she left him at times, doesn't mean she wasn't scared that he was going to kill her and the children.
1:04:35 Speaker 01 Oh, that's very true.
1:04:37 Speaker 00 On February 15th, 2012, Brian Sugrim was convicted of first degree murder. In March 2012, New York authorities said Bernadette could play a major role in getting Brian charged with the murder of Demetrius Carter, were it not for state law that barred her from testifying against her husband. Brian could only be charged if they had enough evidence without her testimony. It was reiterated that Brian was the main suspect in the murder. And I don't know how he couldn't have been, right? This guy is found rolled up in a carpet with his mouth duct taped inside the family home.
1:05:15 Speaker 01 Yeah, it only really points to one person.
1:05:18 Speaker 00 Well, especially after you find all this stuff out about him. On April 9th, 2012, Brian was sentenced to life in prison. During his sentencing hearing, Brian told the court that Bernadette was mentally incapable of telling the truth and maintained his innocence.
1:05:34 Speaker 01 Well, this is all according to him.
1:05:36 Speaker 00 Oh, yeah. I mean, what else is he gonna say? As usual, he's putting it all back on her, right? He's putting the blame on her. He said, per the gazette, "They didn't tell you she is brain damaged. I heard the words of Linda Gibson's family. I really want to tell you guys, I feel you. I understand your pain and I hear your words, but the anger and the hatred that you have, please hold on to that a little bit longer. It's not mine to bear. You were lied to and robbed of justice by the very dogs that are ordered to protect you." Brian then accused specific officers and detectives of falsifying information and accused the judge of making public statements against him.
1:06:21 Speaker 00 Yeah, as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, to me, you know, Brian Sugrim is kind of the classic narcissist.
1:06:30 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah.
1:06:31 Speaker 00 And I do feel like he's, he's a master manipulator.
1:06:35 Speaker 01 Gaslighter.
1:06:36 Speaker 00 Yeah, you can use all those different terms. I think he put his family through hell for many years. I think he had Bernadette to the point where she was scared for her life, the, the kids' lives. I also think he was a man who craved order and control.
1:06:59 Speaker 01 I agree.
1:07:00 Speaker 00 And especially control over other individuals.
1:07:04 Speaker 01 At, at any cost.
1:07:06 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:07:07 Speaker 01 I mean, he was just a, an abusive piece of shit.
1:07:10 Speaker 00 I would agree with that statement. I think most people listening would as well. But Brian remains incarcerated in Michigan. For years, you know, he controlled his family with psychological and physical abuse. And like I said, right, Bernadette and the kids lived in fear of him. So much so that she didn't go to the police. On two different occasions, when he confessed a murder. After Brian's daughter bravely escaped and called for help. Bernadette knew telling the truth would keep Brian away forever.
1:07:45 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:07:45 Speaker 00 Because, you know, let's face it, you can talk about whether she was right or wrong. You know, for not going to the police. We have heard it from victims time and time again. Right. One of the reasons why they didn't, or they don't go to the police is because they're not confident something is going to be done. And if nothing is done to this person, what have you just caused?
1:08:12 Speaker 01 Right.
1:08:13 Speaker 00 You've caused the situation to probably escalate. It's not going to get better, it's going to get worse because you just went to the police. And if this person's not locked up, they're probably coming back after you.
1:08:25 Speaker 01 Well, I just hope that Bernadette and the kids are healing. And I hope that, uh, he is somebody's personal puppet in prison.
1:08:35 Speaker 00 Yeah, personal puppet is very descriptive.
1:08:37 Speaker 01 Yes.
1:08:40 Speaker 00 Kind of gives new meaning to that, you know, using the whole fist there, Doc.
1:08:46 Speaker 01 I wasn't gonna go there, but you did.
1:08:47 Speaker 00 I did. I did. Again, I don't feel for these people.
1:08:52 Speaker 01 I don't either.
1:08:53 Speaker 00 So as much as you and I would never joke about victims.
1:08:58 Speaker 01 Right.
1:08:59 Speaker 00 I have no problem joking about these types of individuals because what they did was horrible.
1:09:06 Speaker 01 Sure.
1:09:06 Speaker 00 So, you know, if something happens to them in prison, it's okay. I'll sleep well tonight. It's not gonna affect me.
1:09:14 Speaker 01 He was a very bad person.
1:09:16 Speaker 00 Yeah, to his core.
1:09:18 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:09:19 Speaker 00 I truly believe that. But that's it for our episode on Brian Sugrim. We got a voicemail. You want to check that out?
1:09:25 Speaker 01 It's here.
1:09:26 Speaker 02 Hey, guys. I was just listening to the Tiffany Boyer episode. And I thought you'd like to know that Apodaca is a Hispanic last name. I don't guess anybody ever pointed that out to the white supremacist, but does show you the irony of racial bias because the people who engage in that are just so stupid, all of them. I hope Mr. Apodaca is getting what he deserves. Although, I don't know, sounds like Machete Bob was kind of a bad guy, too. Who knows? Very confusing, all of it. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.
1:10:02 Speaker 00 All right. Thanks for the voicemail. No, I was not aware that that was a Hispanic last name.
1:10:07 Speaker 01 Now you know.
1:10:08 Speaker 00 And now I know. Not the first nor the last time that somebody's gonna say, I hope he gets what he deserves in in prison. But I do think that was a very confusing case because you had victims who were not angels.
1:10:21 Speaker 01 Right.
1:10:22 Speaker 00 And so that always makes a case a little different.
1:10:25 Speaker 01 It does.
1:10:26 Speaker 00 But thank you.
1:10:28 Speaker 01 But in the end, the right people got what they deserved.
1:10:31 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah, I agree with that.
1:10:33 Speaker 01 I mean, did they deserve more than what they got? Yeah, but.
1:10:37 Speaker 00 As is normally the case.
1:10:38 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:10:39 Speaker 00 All right, we had nothing in the mailbag this week, so that's it, buddy, for another episode of True Crime All The Time. So for Mike.
1:10:45 Speaker 01 And Gibby.
1:10:46 Speaker 00 Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.
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