Pod Insights True Crime All The Time The D.C. Arsonist About this episode In 2003 and 2004, the DC area experienced multiple house fires with suspicious similarities. The fires resulted in two deaths and significant property destruction. An ATF-led task force identified the arsonist’s signature incendiary device, and the same DNA profile was found at several fires.
Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the D. C. Arsonist. Thomas Anthony Sweatt was eventually linked to the fires through DNA evidence. He divulged to police implicating him in over 300 fires and more deaths than they knew about. But it was a series of letters that Sweatt wrote to a journalist that really gives insight into why he did what he did.
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Transcript 11,562 words · 3 speakers
0:34 Speaker 00 Hello everyone and welcome to episode 457 of the True Crime All the Time Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?
0:45 Speaker 01 Hey man, I'm doing good. How about you?
0:47 Speaker 00 I'm doing great, having another good week. It's a busy week for you and I.
0:54 Speaker 01 It is.
0:55 Speaker 00 We had a brand new Patreon episode drop Saturday night. It's on the murder of Tina Stewart. She was a 21-year-old college student who was also a star basketball player at Middle Tennessee State University. She was there on a full ride scholarship, but she had problems with her roommate. That resulted in a really volatile situation and her being stabbed to death.
1:25 Speaker 01 I mean, I know a lot of people have issues with their roommates and we all kind of deal with it, you know, there's just some things about people you just don't like when you have to be around them 24/7, but this was a very escalated issue.
1:39 Speaker 00 Yes, yeah, very much so. And we also have a brand new episode out on True Crime All the Time Unsolved. We're talking about Judy Smith. Judy decided to accompany her husband to a work conference in Philadelphia. She disappeared sometime after leaving the hotel to go sizing. And then months later, her body was found in a remote area of a national forest in North Carolina. So we'll dig into all those mysteries.
2:08 Speaker 01 Yeah, for this, this one seems intriguing to me like I wonder if. And then listen to the podcast here, figure out why.
2:16 Speaker 00 Okay. It's a little cryptic, but I see where you're going with it.
2:19 Speaker 01 I'm kind of a cryptic type of guy being from, you know, Mensa.
2:24 Speaker 00 Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Ashley M.
2:28 Speaker 01 Hey, Ashley.
2:28 Speaker 00 Sandy G.
2:29 Speaker 01 What's going on Sandy?
2:30 Speaker 00 Beverly Gosling.
2:32 Speaker 01 Hey Beverly.
2:33 Speaker 00 Edna Brandon.
2:34 Speaker 01 Well, thanks, Brandon.
2:35 Speaker 00 Tara Stiles.
2:36 Speaker 01 Hey Tara.
2:37 Speaker 00 M. Brad Yorton.
2:39 Speaker 01 I like that Yorton.
2:41 Speaker 00 Sue Herman.
2:43 Speaker 01 Hey Sue.
2:44 Speaker 00 Casper.
2:45 Speaker 01 Yeah, pretty friendly.
2:46 Speaker 00 Aiden Posey.
2:47 Speaker 01 What's going on Posey?
2:48 Speaker 00 Dixie Coleman.
2:49 Speaker 01 Hey Coleman.
2:50 Speaker 00 Amanda Crossland.
2:52 Speaker 01 Thanks, Amanda.
2:53 Speaker 00 And last but not least, Tori Corrigan.
2:55 Speaker 01 Ah, Tori.
2:57 Speaker 00 And then if we go back into the vault. This week, we selected Lindy Lou.
3:02 Speaker 01 One of my favorites.
3:03 Speaker 00 Yeah. So we appreciate all the support that we get. All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All The Time?
3:11 Speaker 01 I am.
3:11 Speaker 00 We're talking about the DC Serial Arsonists. In 2003 and 2004, the DC area experienced multiple house fires with suspicious similarities. The fires resulted in two deaths and significant property destruction. An ATF-led task force identified the arsonist's signature incendiary device. And the same DNA profile was found at several fires. Over a two-year period, the task force linked 50 fires to a single individual. DNA evidence confirmed the identity of the arsonist. The following is a timeline of the fires that resulted in deaths and later criminal charges,
3:56 Speaker 00 and how the investigation unfolded.
3:58 Speaker 01 You know, I've learned a little bit more about arson after watching that Apple series called Smoke. Um, that has that, uh, really good British actor.
4:10 Speaker 00 Boy, you're really narrowing it down.
4:12 Speaker 01 Taran, Tarrigan, Taran, um, yeah.
4:16 Speaker 00 The guy that played Elton John?
4:17 Speaker 01 Yes.
4:18 Speaker 00 Okay.
4:18 Speaker 01 Yeah, him.
4:21 Speaker 01 He does a really good job. He plays a.
4:23 Speaker 00 He's a good actor.
4:23 Speaker 01 Yeah, an arson investigator in this one.
4:27 Speaker 00 I always love how you start talking about a show and an actor that you know you're not gonna be able to tell me who it is.
4:33 Speaker 01 In my mind, I feel like it's gonna flow out, but it just never does.
4:38 Speaker 00 Yeah, that's Mensa.
4:41 Speaker 00 A fire occurred on February 5th, 2002 at 1210 Montel Avenue Northeast, Washington DC. Smoke seeped through the walls into the adjoining home of 89-year-old Annie Brown. Annie suffered from smoke inhalation and died in the hospital on February 14th. Investigators determined the fire was arson and the manner of death was declared homicide. In the spring of 2003, DC and Prince George's County Fire Officials were exchanging notes at a promotional exam when they realized that a series of suspicious fires occurred along their border. The fires had features in common.
5:26 Speaker 00 They were set in single-family detached homes. The fires started on porches or near doorways, and they started in the early morning hours. Forensic testing at the ATF lab determined each fire was set with the same device. A plastic jug, such as a milk or juice container, filled with gasoline and carried to the scene in a plastic bag. Most of the fires started near exits, as if the arsonist wanted to trap people inside. Now, I get it, there are some people who like to start fires.
6:04 Speaker 00 I don't understand the reasoning behind it, but this arsonist seems as if he's doing it in a way to try to maximize the casualties.
6:17 Speaker 01 Yeah, like he really wants to harm people.
6:20 Speaker 00 Yeah, not, not just burn a structure down.
6:23 Speaker 01 Right.
6:24 Speaker 00 He wants to kill some people.
6:25 Speaker 01 Almost like he's using the structure to do the dirty work.
6:29 Speaker 00 The lab conclusively linked four fires, and 15 were deemed similar looking. The victims didn't appear to have any connection. Investigators created a map showing the location of all the fires in hopes of figuring out a pattern, but they were scattered. They did determine the arsonist preferred low-income and working-class neighborhoods.
6:54 Speaker 00 Now you and I talk a lot about serial killers, right? And those individuals are scary. They're out prowling, they're looking for victims. But this is a very scary situation, too.
7:07 Speaker 01 It is.
7:08 Speaker 00 You have an individual who is looking to start fires and he's not afraid of killing people. In fact, he might be aiming at it.
7:19 Speaker 01 And that makes it more scary, right? I mean, it's like, yeah, I know some people start fires on abandoned homes because they either like it or they just don't want the home to be there anymore. But it's a different twist when you do it, knowing that someone's probably inside and you just don't care.
7:38 Speaker 00 On June 5th, 2003, firefighters were called to 2800 Yvart Street Northeast, Washington DC, where they found a home engulfed in flames. Two occupants escaped by jumping out a second story window. Firefighters recovered 86-year-old Lou Edna Jones from her second floor bedroom, but she was pronounced dead at the hospital. Lou Edna died of smoke inhalation and her feet were burned badly from trying to escape her bedroom. Her manner of death was declared homicide.
8:13 Speaker 01 And it just hurts thinking about this older woman trying to escape through this fire to the point where she was having her feet burned as she was trying to get away. And then obviously the smoke was just too much.
8:29 Speaker 00 Yeah, smoke inhalation can hit, you know, pretty quickly. But, you know, let's face it, when you're 89 years old, you're not as spry as you were when you were younger. It's going to be tougher to, let's say, scramble out of a second story window or, you know, do something like that. Once again, investigators found a plastic jug containing flammable liquid near the front door of the home. Investigators were deeply troubled by the June 2003 fire, which they knew was set by the arsonist because of the device found at the scene. Another fire occurred that same night about two and a half miles away near RFK Stadium.
9:14 Speaker 00 It started 50 minutes before the one on Everts Street. Investigators assumed the arsonist saw the fires in the news and knew he killed somebody. They had a hard time believing he set his first fire in March and then escalated to murder three months later, which meant they needed to go back and look for older fires with similarities.
9:37 Speaker 01 So we know they have determined there's a pattern here, and I think it's a good decision for them to take a deeper dive into these.
9:46 Speaker 00 And to go back and look at older fires, right? I mean, how many times have we talked about a killer and said, is this really the only one, two or three murders that they committed? Or is this just what they've been caught for? You know, I often think some of these killers killed more people in the past, but they're not going to offer up that information.
10:11 Speaker 01 Yeah, why would they? No benefit.
10:13 Speaker 00 So it seems logical, right? That it could happen with this type of arsonist as well. By mid-July 2003, the ATF and local law enforcement had launched a manhunt for the arsonist. Agents recreated models of the arsonist's device using plastic jugs and cloth wicks, then conducted stage burns at the lab and at a field home. They found that when the wick was lit, the gallon jug didn't ignite as expected. The narrow opening at the top of the jug allowed only so many vapors to escape at a time.
10:52 Speaker 00 Because gasoline itself doesn't burn, only its vapors do, the gasoline acted as a coolant, letting the device burn slowly and steadily. It took around 20 minutes for the plastic to melt, allowing the gasoline and its vapors to spread across the porch. Once it did, the fire would reach the wood or siding. And that's fascinating to me. I mean, you know, I'm getting some Dexter vibes. Now Dexter would be hitting some type of model cranium on the head with a hammer.
11:28 Speaker 00 And blood, fake blood would be flying all over the walls, but you know, it's a similar scenario.
11:36 Speaker 01 Yeah, I get you.
11:37 Speaker 00 You were trying to recreate a crime. Now, not knowing a lot about gasoline, starting fires with gasoline. I would have assumed that if you had a whole gallon of gasoline in a jug and you put a wick in there and lit it, that thing was going up pretty quickly. But that's not what they found.
12:00 Speaker 01 No, and I kind of knew that because I remember back in the day when guys would do construction, like on bridges and stuff. They would take containers of gasoline, open containers and pour gasoline in there. And they would take a wick and float it and that would give them light. And it would never explode. And that makes sense, what they're saying here, it's the vapor that ignites. So this arsonist in his approach seems fairly smart to know, I'm going to do it this way, conceal it in a plastic bag. And as it melts away, all those vapors are going to just like poof.
12:45 Speaker 00 Well, and it also would mean he's in no danger, right? He's got plenty of time to get away.
12:50 Speaker 01 Yeah, he's gone.
12:51 Speaker 00 And be somewhere, you know, far away. I guess that does maybe explain like the Molotov cocktail, that it's really when the bottle breaks after it hits something.
13:06 Speaker 01 Yeah.
13:06 Speaker 00 That it really goes up in flames. But the arsonist made a critical error that allowed the police to catch him. When he needed a wick, he used a piece of his own clothing, which left his DNA at some fire. One night in September 2003, three brothers who were out partying returned to their home on Anacostia Avenue Northeast. They saw a stranger sitting on their front porch. After a brief exchange, the man acted like he was lost and walked off. He left behind a plastic shopping bag, inside of which was a gasoline filled jug that had a piece of cloth tied to the handle.
13:48 Speaker 00 Investigators were called to the scene, and in the bottom of the bag was a single strand of hair. A DNA sample was obtained from the hair, which the lab determined likely belonged to a black male. And in some of these cases where there's a lot of forensics in play, how someone gets caught is often the most interesting part.
14:11 Speaker 01 It is.
14:12 Speaker 00 You think about someone not trying to leave DNA behind. Okay, maybe they're using gloves and all of that. But if you make the decision to use a piece of your own clothing, there's a good chance there's something on there, hair stuck on there, you know, who knows what.
14:31 Speaker 01 Yeah, not the smartest thing to do, but he probably wasn't thinking like that.
14:36 Speaker 00 No, because I think he thought anything that would have been in there would have burned up.
14:41 Speaker 01 Yeah.
14:42 Speaker 00 But he didn't plan on these guys coming home and not being able to start the fire. Investigators created a profile and theorized that the arsonist was lonely and felt a deep sense of failure about his life. On November 16, 2003, the Alexandria Fire Department responded to a fire in a cottage at Lynn House, a nursing care facility. The Lynn House leased rooms to nurses working in the area longer than three months. A destructive device was recovered from the location. The task force realized they might need to expand their search area. Some investigators believe the arsonist moved areas because they were close to catching him.
15:23 Speaker 01 Isn't that strange, though, if the arsonist is moving around because he knows that they were getting close to him, but he doesn't decide to stop, right? He could just stop.
15:34 Speaker 00 Sure.
15:35 Speaker 01 And he'll be probably okay.
15:37 Speaker 00 Well, and you could say the same about killers.
15:40 Speaker 01 Yeah.
15:40 Speaker 00 But why don't they stop? It's almost, you know, it's a compulsion.
15:45 Speaker 01 Yeah.
15:46 Speaker 00 I think if some of them could stop, they would, but I think a lot of them can't.
15:51 Speaker 01 It's like a drug. They've got to have it.
15:53 Speaker 00 It's a rush. It's whatever you want to call it, and they have to keep doing it. On February 6, 2004, there was a fire at an apartment building in Alexandria, Virginia. Days later, on February 14th, a device containing ignitable liquid was placed between the first and second floors of an apartment building's only stairwell at 7700 Blair Road, Silver Spring, Maryland. The fire flowed across the landing and down the steps to the first floor. Occupants were forced to jump from second and third story windows, resulting in injury. The apartment fire never fully destroyed the incendiary device, which was
16:37 Speaker 00 a shopping bag, a gallon jug, and a swatch of a pair of black slacks. Although the cloth was charred, the lab was able to extract trace DNA. The DNA from the apartment fire matched the hair taken from the attempted fire on Anacostia Avenue in September 2003. Investigators now had the DNA profile of the arsonist, but they didn't know the identity of the suspect. And that goes back to something you and I talk about all the time. DNA is great, but if that DNA is not in some database, it really doesn't help you much at that point in time.
17:18 Speaker 01 It's not going to do anything for you.
17:19 Speaker 00 You got to find somebody to match it to. I do want to go back to this apartment fire, this last one, deliberately setting the fire in the stairwell. I mean, that's diabolical.
17:36 Speaker 01 Yeah, you're starting the fire right where the escape route would be.
17:41 Speaker 00 Meaning, nobody's getting down, forcing them to jump from second and third story windows. But you know, investigators have to feel like they're closing in, right? They have to feel pretty good about what they have.
17:56 Speaker 01 Yeah.
17:57 Speaker 00 They have two DNA samples that match. Now, they don't have a match to the suspect, but it's more than they might have in a lot of cases. On December 5th, 2004, Arlington County Fire Department responded to a report of a fire at 301 North Bryan Street. The fire was set on the side porch of the home. A block away from the house, investigators found a pair of Marine Corps dress trousers and a white cap. The DNA from the pants matched DNA from other fire. So they are having really good luck finding DNA. And it's linking these fires to the same person.
18:41 Speaker 00 Investigators reached out to the Naval Criminal Investigation Service and learned that the organization was investigating a string of vehicle fires set near the Marine barracks in southeast Washington. All right, so we have CSI meets NCIS now.
18:58 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah.
18:59 Speaker 00 We've got a crossover episode.
19:04 Speaker 00 The NCIS had known the identity of their suspect for two years. A car captured on video leaving the scene of a fire was traced to 50-year-old Thomas Anthony Sweat, a manager at the KFC Pizza Hut store in DC. It was unclear how Sweat obtained the military slacks since there was no indication. He served in the military. Investigators began surveillance on Sweat, but after he didn't exhibit any suspicious behavior, detectives entered his workplace to talk to him. Sweat was asked directly if he set the fires, to which he responded, "Why would I set those beautiful homes on fire when I'm trying to become a homeowner myself?"
19:50 Speaker 00 Sweat agreed to provide a DNA sample, which matched the DNA found at the fires.
19:56 Speaker 01 Well, that wouldn't be good.
19:58 Speaker 00 No, but I mean, if you go in and ask the guy if you set these fires, what's he gonna say? Yeah, you got me. And I guess every now and then it does happen, but.
20:07 Speaker 01 Yeah, but rare.
20:08 Speaker 00 Yeah, it's rare that people just give up that easily. But Thomas Sweat was arrested on April 25th, 2005. And how could they not arrest him? I mean, this DNA is extremely damning evidence. Sweat maintained his innocence for the first hour and a half of his interrogation, but he eventually broke down and confessed. All right, yeah, hour and a half doesn't seem like that long. He didn't make it too far in.
20:38 Speaker 01 Maybe it was just a good.
20:40 Speaker 00 Interrogator.
20:41 Speaker 01 Interrogator that just kept on drilling away.
20:43 Speaker 00 Maybe, or maybe it was the revelation of all this DNA evidence kind of proving their case where he said, oh, my gosh, I could fight this, but I'm never gonna win.
20:58 Speaker 01 So I'm best just to go ahead and say, yep, it was me.
21:02 Speaker 00 He admitted to setting the June 2003 fire and also the February 2002 fire that killed Annie Brown. He wasn't a suspect in this fire until investigators found the newspaper clipping in his apartment.
21:17 Speaker 01 So just like serial killers, you know, the serial arsonist is collecting articles or trophies.
21:26 Speaker 00 Yeah, right. They're following their work. They're reading the articles. They're clipping the articles. Because what? They get a rush out of setting the fires, I assume.
21:39 Speaker 01 Yeah.
21:40 Speaker 00 And then like a serial killer, they most likely get a rush out of reading and rereading an article about their work.
21:50 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's reliving what they did.
21:51 Speaker 00 Yeah. Now, what they're doing while they read those articles, I don't want to know. In the case of Lou Edna Jones, he claimed he picked the house at random. He sat on the porch for about 15 minutes, working up the nerve to do what he was going to do. He admitted that he typically placed the incendiary device near a door because it was more likely to burn at that location. And he was at times aware, people were in the homes when he set them on fire.
22:22 Speaker 01 He's saying, I know people were there. I still set the fire.
22:26 Speaker 00 And I said it in a way that would make it harder for them to escape the home. Sweat also confessed to setting a fire on April 16th, 2004, at Rosecroft Village Circle East in Oxon Hill, Maryland. Sleeping inside that home were a mother, young child, and grandmother. Investigators recovered a receipt that had a Jackson Hewitt Tax Service ad on the back. This ad was prepared for the giant food store in DC. Additional investigation showed that Sweat made a purchase at the store at 1:44 a.m.
23:05 Speaker 00 on April 15th, 2004. Investigators learned that Sweat's workplace was near many of the crime scenes. He worked a shift that would have allowed him to set fires in the early morning hours. He also lived near a convenience store where he may have purchased a few of the jugs used to set the fires. Sweat spent the next four days driving around DC with investigators to show them where he set fires. Investigators noticed that he seemed relieved, as if a weight was being lifted. He wanted everything over with. And I think there are some serial killers who experienced the same thing.
23:47 Speaker 00 Now, I don't know if any of these people want to get caught. I'm assuming they don't. They want to continue doing these bad things that give them the rush they're seeking. But it does seem as though some of these people, at least once they are caught, it's almost like they are relieved.
24:08 Speaker 01 Yeah, like they're okay with it. Okay, now I can stop.
24:11 Speaker 00 Because I couldn't on my own. At his initial court appearance, Sweat was charged with six federal counts in Maryland and five in DC. Murder charges were pending for the June 2003 fire that killed Lou Edna Jones.
24:27 Speaker 00 Within two weeks, Sweat signed a secret plea deal, admitting to 45 fires. However, with his confessions, investigators were able to close out Gibbs 353 fires, going all the way back to the 1980s.
24:45 Speaker 01 That is crazy. That's so many. I mean, this is definitely a serial arsonist.
24:53 Speaker 00 Oh, to, to the highest level.
24:55 Speaker 01 Yeah.
24:55 Speaker 00 353 fires. And it sounds like he was operating in what, four different decades?
25:04 Speaker 01 I'm surprised that he didn't get caught sooner.
25:08 Speaker 00 Well, yeah, me too. But let's look at the way that he got caught, right? DNA. So in the eighties, yeah, you're probably not going to get caught by DNA, right? Didn't come around until the mid to late eighties. And then even in, as time went on, it took a while, right? For DNA to really find its groove because the technology kept advancing and advancing. Those who knew Sweat were shocked by his arrest. KFC cook Joseph Hunter told NBC, "It's just shocking to me. He was real soft spoken. He was a fatherly shy type figure."
25:49 Speaker 00 NBC reported that Sweat owned an apartment building with his sister in southeast Washington. They had lived in separate apartments in the four unit building for at least 15 years. He was often seen sweeping sidewalks and picking up litter along the street. Neighbor Joe Muse told NBC, "He would start at the front of the block and clean all the way past his building just to make the neighborhood a better place." Antoine Drayton, who lived across the street, said, "He and his sister are good people. When you see them, all they're doing is fixing up buildings, cleaning up, and doing good things for the community."
26:29 Speaker 01 So was he burning these other homes because they were an eyesore? Even though he told police when they first talked to him that, "I didn't do that. Those are beautiful homes."
26:41 Speaker 00 Or did he just have, as many predators do, two sides?
26:48 Speaker 00 Right? How often do you hear when some serial killer is unmasked?
26:54 Speaker 01 Yeah.
26:54 Speaker 00 Oh, my gosh, I cannot believe he could have done that. He was a great neighbor. He was a great father. Here you have this guy's out cleaning up the sidewalks to make the neighborhood beautiful, yet he's leading this secret life that is setting 300 plus fires over a 30, 40 year period.
27:16 Speaker 01 Yeah, sweeping up, cleaning up the streets today, tomorrow night, burning in a house down.
27:23 Speaker 00 On June 6, 2005, Thomas Sweat pleaded guilty to possession of destructive devices, destruction of buildings by fire resulting in personal injury, possession of destructive devices and furtherance of a crime of violence, first degree murder and second degree murder. In addition to the 45 residential fires, Sweat also admitted to setting four vehicles on fire in a parking lot at 8th and I Streets in Southeast DC in February and March 2003. His agreement with prosecutors barred them from using his confessions to charge him with more crimes in exchange for a full account of his crimes. He agreed to be sentenced to
28:07 Speaker 00 life plus 136 years on a select number of offenses. And I actually don't have a problem with that at all.
28:15 Speaker 01 No.
28:16 Speaker 00 You know, some plea deals, you know, I think they're tough for me. They're tough for victims. This one, I mean, the guy's getting life plus 136 years.
28:27 Speaker 01 He's not going anywhere.
28:28 Speaker 00 He's not going anywhere ever. I don't believe. So to get more information from him in exchange for that, I think that's a win-win. Sweat sentencing hearing took place on September 12, 2005. The judge agreed to recommend a psychiatric evaluation. Sweat's defense attorney, John Chambly, argued that his client suffered from a mental illness that caused radical and uncontrollable shifts in behavior. According to Chambly, Sweat didn't have a choice and was laboring under a psychological compulsion. He even compared him to Dr. Jekyll
29:09 Speaker 00 and Mr. Hyde, saying, you had the good Mr. Sweat and the sick Mr. Sweat.
29:16 Speaker 01 Well, that evaluation should flush that out then.
29:20 Speaker 00 When it was his turn to speak, Sweat apologized to the judge and the relatives of the victim, saying, "To my victims and to the victims' families, I'm very sorry for all the harm that I caused you. For those of you who have lost loved ones, I share your hurt and share your pain every day."
29:39 Speaker 01 I just don't know if you can believe that.
29:42 Speaker 00 I wouldn't believe it if I was a victim or a family member of a victim. To anyone who harbored hatreds toward him, Sweat said he would ask God to replace that hate with understanding. Alright, for me, that's going to be a tall order.
29:59 Speaker 01 It's gonna be an impossible order for me.
30:02 Speaker 00 Because how are you going to understand the reason why he did what he did?
30:07 Speaker 01 Even if you could understand why he thought he did what he had to do, it's still not going to be acceptable to you.
30:16 Speaker 00 No, because his reasoning's not going to make sense to you, for sure. After he was sentenced, Sweat spent a year exchanging letters with Washington City Paper reporter Dave Jamison. Sweat wrote about his family, his faith in God, and the fires. In his letters, he confessed to a number of fires for which he was never held responsible, including a 1985 fire that was declared an accident. This man cannot stop confessing to fires.
30:46 Speaker 01 I'm thinking he probably left a few out.
30:48 Speaker 00 He may have. Now, he may not have if he had kind of immunity, right, from his confessions, but we have seen people who have no problem admitting to killing, but let's say if a child was involved, they would omit that.
31:07 Speaker 01 Sure.
31:08 Speaker 00 Because number one, they don't want to admit to it. Number two, they don't want it to get linked to them when they're in prison.
31:16 Speaker 01 I just don't know if I could even remember all the places I said arson to. I just don't think I could remember all of them, like...
31:25 Speaker 00 Well, how many places have you said arson to?
31:29 Speaker 00 The way you said it was like you've said so many, uh, you can't remember them. No, but I get what you're saying. I think the difference is for you and I and people listening. You know, when you say, well, I can't remember what I did last Tuesday. Yeah, that's true. The difference is you didn't kill someone or you didn't, you know, set a place on fire.
31:52 Speaker 01 Something that would be locked into your.
31:54 Speaker 00 Yes. And then you also didn't dwell on those things, relive them over the years. So they maybe kind of get seared into your brain.
32:06 Speaker 00 On July 11th, 1985, authorities responded to a house fire at 67 Quincy Place in DC. Forty five year old Bessie Mae Duncan died in the fire. Her husband, 39 year old Roy Picot, was severely injured and later died in the hospital. Their four children escaped the fire. At that time, Sweat was working as a fry cook at Roy Rogers. He was walking home from work in the early morning hours when he passed Roy Picot, who was walking in the other direction. Roy said something to him and the two nodded. Sweat decided to follow him home. In his letters with reporter Dave Jamison, he wrote that he wanted to see the man one more time,
32:51 Speaker 00 but the only way would be through fire.
32:54 Speaker 01 That's scary. You're, you're on the sidewalk, you walk in, you pass somebody, you go, what up, man? And you do the little head nod thing.
33:02 Speaker 00 Yeah, because you're trying to be nice. You're trying to be neighborly.
33:05 Speaker 01 But because you do that, they have interest in you now and they want to see you again. And the way they're going to see you again, or try to, is to burn your house down with your family in it.
33:16 Speaker 00 Can we talk about Roy Rogers for a minute?
33:18 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah. Good old Roy.
33:19 Speaker 00 I really miss Roy Rogers.
33:21 Speaker 01 Yeah.
33:22 Speaker 00 It was kind of like an Arby's.
33:23 Speaker 01 Kind of.
33:24 Speaker 00 In a way, they had roast beef and, and other things. Sweat returned home to change clothes. He immediately headed back out in his sister's car, stopping along the way to fill a soda bottle with gasoline. And, and this is why it says right at the pumps, right? Only use approved containers.
33:44 Speaker 01 Does it say that?
33:45 Speaker 00 It does.
33:46 Speaker 01 Well, you did work at a gas station. I never read that.
33:48 Speaker 00 Well, I also pump gas all the time. You don't need to work at a gas station to have seen the sign, but. Yeah, they don't want you to fill up a 20 ounce Coke. They don't want you to fill up a gallon milk jug. Because those are not made to hold gasoline.
34:07 Speaker 01 Apparently, they don't want you to leave your car running while you're putting gas in either, which.
34:11 Speaker 00 No, they don't.
34:12 Speaker 01 I've never really complied with that till recently.
34:15 Speaker 00 They also don't love it when you pull away from the pump before taking out the nozzle.
34:20 Speaker 01 Oh, man, that's one thing I haven't done.
34:23 Speaker 00 Oh, when I worked at the gas stations, I used to see it all the time.
34:26 Speaker 01 Probably frustrated you.
34:28 Speaker 00 Well, that's why they came out with that quick disconnect thing. So only the hose pops off, not that you don't drag the, like in the old movies where you would drag the whole pump with you.
34:39 Speaker 01 So at the gas station, did you guys have like a back in the storage room, some backup hoses?
34:45 Speaker 00 No, it was actually an involved process and it cost the people quite a bit of money every time they did it.
34:51 Speaker 01 Yeah, well, it's a loss of revenue for the gas station. I'm assuming if you can't utilize that pump for a while, you're not selling the amount of gas you'd like to sell.
35:00 Speaker 00 Sure. Sweat parked near the Quincy Place home and walked up to the front door. He poured gas beneath the door, used a towel to hold it there and struck a match. He fled back into his sister's car and circled the block. When he returned, he saw the man standing on the front porch in his underwear. He heard the man scream that his wife was still in the house and could hear someone calling for help from a basement window. Sweat wrote, I was glad to see him again and wanted to help, but the fire trucks were coming. Roy Picot woke up to find his bedroom on fire. He escaped by jumping out a window.
35:41 Speaker 00 A neighbor saw this and heard him screaming for help because he couldn't get to his wife. Roy and Bessie May's daughters Cheryl and Martha were in their bedrooms on the second floor when the fire started around 4 a.m. They escaped through the back of the house. Their two sons Rodney and Danny fled from their basement bedroom and were not injured.
36:04 Speaker 01 This just sounds really bizarre. He just wanted to see the guy again.
36:08 Speaker 00 He saw him in his underwear yelling on the front porch that his wife was still in the house. I'm just wondering what kind of rush someone gets from that. Again, I don't understand the rush that people get from killing others either, but.
36:26 Speaker 01 We know they get that rush.
36:27 Speaker 00 They do. Firefighters went inside the burning row house to look for Bessie Mae. But the flames grew too intense and they were ordered to leave. As the final firefighters walked out, the cornice collapsed. Several firefighters were injured. Bessie Mae's body was found in a front bedroom on the second floor. After an investigation, the fire was declared an accident. An investigator wrote in the final report. The fire started as a result of a carelessly dropped cigarette in the bedding of a second floor bedroom. And that's shocking, knowing that the fire was started on the first floor near the front door.
37:10 Speaker 01 Yeah.
37:11 Speaker 00 So how they came to that conclusion, I have no idea.
37:15 Speaker 01 They might have came to it a little too quick.
37:18 Speaker 00 But obviously that would change the direction.
37:20 Speaker 01 It would.
37:20 Speaker 00 Right of an investigation. Roy Picot suffered second and third degree burns on over 60% of his body. And he was in critical condition. Cheryl was also in critical condition due to second and third degree burns. Martha suffered burns and was in fair condition. Roy died of his injuries on March 5th, 1985. Thomas Swat wrote that he learned the names of the victims from the news. He was saddened to learn that a woman had died, but she was collateral damage that had to happen to make his fantasies reality. Just let that sentence soak in. She was collateral damage. So what does that mean?
38:06 Speaker 00 Roy, this guy he had passed on the street.
38:09 Speaker 01 Yeah.
38:10 Speaker 00 He was the real target. Like he said it, right? I want to see this guy again, but the only way is going to be through flames.
38:20 Speaker 01 And if those.
38:23 Speaker 01 Kids would have died. I think he would have made the same statement.
38:27 Speaker 00 I think he would have looked at them as collateral damage as well. But here's the thing that is so scary. You know, you said it, just walking by someone on the street. It's not like they got in some big beef. It's not like Roy cut this guy off and this guy followed him home.
38:44 Speaker 01 Yeah.
38:44 Speaker 00 He just kind of acknowledged him on the side of this or on the sidewalk. And that's all it took for this guy to kind of focus in on him. Reporter Dave Jameson worked to verify Sweat's confession. The only victim's name he listed in his letter was spelled phonetically as Roy Peacock. However, Sweat's retelling matched details from the Washington Post's original reporting on the fire. Jameson was able to locate Rodney Peacock and his sister Cheryl Legrose. Rodney had always questioned the fire report. His father had stopped smoking years before the fire and no one else in their house smoked.
39:28 Speaker 00 They spent years wondering how the fire really started. And again, I just go back to this, you know, fire arson investigator really dropping the ball on this one.
39:40 Speaker 01 Yeah, it seems like it.
39:42 Speaker 00 Rodney also noted that one investigator estimated the fire started at 2:40 a.m. But he was up at that time, watching a movie and put the fire closer to 4 a.m.
39:53 Speaker 01 Well, you would think an investigator would have asked the kids at that time, hey, what time did you go to bed? And did you notice anything?
40:01 Speaker 00 Yeah. And if you were up, was the house on fire? And the answer was no. Okay, maybe you need to readjust your time a little bit. Rodney also told Jameson that in 2006, a DC detective reached out to him and told him they arrested a man who was responsible for multiple fires in DC in the mid 80s. And they believed he set the Quincy Place fire. The detective never told him the full story, most likely because investigators were barred from discussing the confessions publicly if they were not part of the final plea deal. The investigator also told Rodney that the suspect showed up at the funeral home viewing for his parents,
40:42 Speaker 00 but did not go inside. So, I mean, you know, this guy, he really shared a lot. Of details. Yeah, he did. With investigators as he was confessing to these crimes. Kind of creepy, though. Very creepy. Going there because he just wants to see. Well, it's like a killer showing up at someone's funeral. Yeah. Right? And a lot of times, the police will put undercover, you know, folks in the crowd, just looking for someone, you know, who seems out of place. When Dave Jameson told the siblings about Sweat's account of the fire, they came to believe he was responsible.
41:24 Speaker 00 Dave Jameson's exchanges with Thomas Sweat provided detailed insight about his life and the inner workings of his mind. For example, he wrote, "I kept up with all the news reports about my fires, plus others that they didn't know about. I have a diary of fires that I put away elsewhere for I knew someday the ATF would ask for it. I still believe in my mind that the Lord God Almighty brought them, the ATF people, to me because it was time for all this to stop. Thirty years of fires. It was like, come get me. I'm tired. Jail can't be any worse than the life I had then.
42:09 Speaker 00 And believe it or not, life is pretty much the same. It just, I'm not free to go wherever I want to. And I think, you know, it's somewhat rare to get this kind of insight, right, into a criminal's mindset. Yeah. But pretty fascinating. I mean, he's letting us in, or he's letting them in. And now us. Yeah. Sweat explained that he set fires for different reasons. Why did I set the fires when I set them? That's an all too familiar question that cannot be understood if you don't know the story. There were different reasons for most of the fires.
42:49 Speaker 00 It could be because of one feeling, the need to have power about something or someone. I don't want you driving that car. So the fire becomes a weapon to destroy it. Or in case of some house fires, I might like a particular style of a house and wish one day to own it, but it's only a dream. Fire is a tool to destroy. And some house fires also become my fantasy of people scrambling to exit windows.
43:19 Speaker 00 And sort of feel like they need my help. So I stay and watch. Then I'd masturbate over the fire while driving away from the scene.
43:30 Speaker 00 I'm, I'm, I'm lost for words. I'm just, I mean, people masturbate over a lot of different things. Normally in the privacy of their own home, I believe.
43:41 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's why I sit on this side and not where you sit, but.
43:44 Speaker 00 Obviously.
43:44 Speaker 01 Yeah, but.
43:45 Speaker 00 But he would masturbate over the fire while driving away from the scene. So he's in his car masturbating.
43:56 Speaker 01 Yeah.
43:56 Speaker 00 Thinking about the fire as he's driving away from the scene. And now I have that, that picture in my head and I can't get it out.
44:04 Speaker 01 Well, that's just not safe driving.
44:06 Speaker 00 No, it's not. That's really going to jack up your rates. Uh, no pun intended.
44:11 Speaker 01 Yeah, I see what you did there. Yeah, those D D U M's are not good.
44:16 Speaker 00 Or D W M's.
44:17 Speaker 01 Yeah, D W M's.
44:18 Speaker 00 Driving while masturbating. In 1992, Sweat moved into an apartment on Le Baum Street Southeast. He enjoyed tending to the property, cutting the grass, cleaning up trash. He prided himself on his interior design. He wrote, people would visit and say, wow, this is a huge apartment and nicely decorated. I like that. But no matter what good, nice things people said, I never felt better. That depressing feeling wouldn't go away. Instead, it'd make me want to go out and do evil stuff, like setting something afire. Again, I mean, this insight into this guy's mind.
45:02 Speaker 00 Now he's writing all of this right to this reporter, Dave Jamison. This thought though, that he longed to have certain things. But he knew he'd never have them. He was obviously incredibly jealous, right? He even said it, he would set a car on fire because he liked that car, but he knew he couldn't have it.
45:23 Speaker 01 And if he couldn't have it, nobody should have it.
45:26 Speaker 00 Right. He'd set a house on fire because he longed to live in a house like that, but he knew he never would. On his off days, he read do it yourself books, which is kind of humorous because it seemed like he was doing a lot of do it yourself.
45:43 Speaker 00 But he and his sister also did home renovation on the side. According to Sweat, then we both became masters of the trade and renovated apartments as well as houses. On my off days, I would work at the apartment. I did kitchens completely, including floors, walls, cabinets and molding. We saved a lot of money too. And at the same time, my thoughts would wonder a lot about the tenants. If they only knew that I was the person responsible for many fires and that it was easy for them to have become victim.
46:19 Speaker 01 It's almost like he had a little power thing there, like he could felt like, well, do you know how easy it is for me if I wanted to?
46:29 Speaker 00 Well, yeah. I think for a lot of these guys, there is a feeling of like playing God, right? You can troll or can control who lives and who dies. And obviously that must be a very powerful feeling. He wrote about his neighborhood. I felt like that was my world. The people were friendly, not a lot of money in the neighborhood, but everybody happy go lucky. If you know what I mean, but that was the good part of Tom that people saw and only knew. Then when darkness fell, it was the other person living inside of me.
47:08 Speaker 01 Jekyll.
47:09 Speaker 00 After Sweat moved to La Baum Street, fire started in his neighborhood. Some in vacant buildings and others in homes and stores. He burned the garage behind his apartment and the neighborhood laundromat. When he received a bad haircut, he burned down the barber shop. He burned it a second time when he grew tired of people hanging around the block.
47:32 Speaker 01 He just didn't like something, he burned it down and then masturbated as he drove away.
47:37 Speaker 00 This dag gone haircut, one hand on the wheel. I mean, but think about that. You got a bad haircut. Okay. It happens to everybody.
47:46 Speaker 01 Yeah, what happened?
47:48 Speaker 00 Just go to a different place. You don't have to burn down every place. You're going to burn down the McDonald's when they, when the fries aren't fresh off the, uh, fresh out of the, uh,
48:00 Speaker 01 Friar?
48:01 Speaker 00 Friar? I mean, you, I mean, he did burn down like 350 plus places. So maybe he is, I don't know.
48:08 Speaker 01 Good thing they didn't have a Chick-fil-A around the corner. He would really wouldn't like all those cars stacked out there.
48:13 Speaker 00 But then he, you know, he burns down the barber shop for a second time. Cause there's just too many people staying out front.
48:20 Speaker 01 Yeah, I don't like that. I don't like people, uh, hanging out. And so let's get rid of the barber shop.
48:25 Speaker 00 Sweat wrote, there were lots of barber shops and carryouts as well as gas stations. I like barber shops because there were always attractive men there. Crazy as it may sound, I had a fascination for barbers.
48:40 Speaker 01 Yeah, I can, uh, see where he's going with this. So obviously he was attracted to men. And for whatever reason, he really liked the barber shop guys.
48:51 Speaker 00 Well, you know, some of them old school guys, they use the straight razor and they sharpen it up on that, that leather strap thing.
49:00 Speaker 01 Yeah.
49:01 Speaker 00 I, I get it. Uh, I don't personally see the attraction there, but I see how somebody maybe could.
49:07 Speaker 01 I think he, I think he maybe liked that they had, uh, nice groomed hair. Maybe he just liked the scent of Dapper Dan.
49:16 Speaker 00 Or the, uh, comb disinfectant, one or the other. According to the Washington city paper, Sweat lit many fires throughout the eighties and nineties, but police never caught on to him. It was a busy time for the city's arson investigators since over 200 fires per year were classified as arson in the early 1990s.
49:38 Speaker 01 It's crazy though, isn't it? That many fires?
49:41 Speaker 00 Yeah, but I mean, you are talking about, you know, a pretty. Good size population there. In 2001, Sweat purchased a car, which allowed him to venture outside of southeast DC. He could drive around northeast where he worked and middle-class neighborhoods in Prince George's County. This was his favorite area. Sweat wrote, "There was one fire at Southview Drive, Maryland, side a whole complex under construction, which damaged net $1 million because of pipeline explosion. That was a huge fire that could be seen and heard miles away. It was amazing to watch. This was one of the fires I was
50:26 Speaker 00 never connected to. After doing for so long, it just became easier and easier. But the fear of getting caught was always there. Each fire was like doing the first time. And I'd always take deep breaths and ask the Lord to forgive me for what I'm about to do. Each one was special in its own way."
50:46 Speaker 01 I would hate to see what those floor mats look like.
50:50 Speaker 00 Maybe had some of those special like rubber weather tacks or something, you know? Sweat wrote that he started working at the KFC in northeast DC in 1993. He worked as a cook for years and was later promoted to manager. Jermaine Bryant, a cook at KFC, told the Washington City Paper that he viewed Sweat as his mentor. He seemed like he had his life in order. Bryant said, "Everybody complains," but he didn't. He'd be there at 6:00 AM every morning doing inventory. Everything he did was so neat. He knew where everything was. He'd bring in coffee and donuts for everyone in the morning, just the sweetest guy.
51:32 Speaker 01 Isn't that strange? You know, you have this account of this individual being the sweetest, nicest, very organized, professional type of a guy. But then, on the other side, you have this guy that just wants to burn it all down.
51:47 Speaker 00 But again, you hear the same kind of things about killers, right? Their neighbors say, yeah, he was just the best neighbor. He'd cut our grass or he'd help out. Yet, you know, he murdered 20 people. I just can't reconcile these two different people. And I, and I think Sweat was two different people. You know, he, like many of them are, he was one person to friends and family and coworkers. And he was another person. I don't mean technically, like psychologically or mentally, but Right. there was another side to him when he went out at night or in the early morning hours to set these fires. Sweat wrote about his job.
52:29 Speaker 00 The sad news is that KFC at 1944 Bladensburg Road contributed to how my life ended. The beginning years, 1993 on were bad because I had no real reason to excel fast. I was just content where I was and what I was doing. People saw the good in my work and that's how I climbed up the corporate ladder, so to speak. So from 1993 to 2005, I was promoted from cook to all star to shift supervisor, assistant manager, unit manager. KFC was very stressful and I had little time for anything else.
53:11 Speaker 00 When coming and leaving that restaurant, I put on a mask to hide the other person, which took over after closing. Sweat worked long hours and only earned about $1,700 a month, according to the article. He wrote about his life. Dave, I lived one day at a time. People always, including family, said, you work at a chicken joint? That ain't no real job. And it used to hurt my feelings because it required so much of my time. KFC had benefits for salaried employees only. I was 50 years old with about 15 years service. I just couldn't see myself trying to run a fast food joint at 60 plus.
53:54 Speaker 00 It's too stressful and I'd have a heart attack. That, that has happened to a manager before. I was like, go to work, sometimes all day, come home, eat and go to sleep. Wake up early hours in the AM and go hunting for a fire. Repeat that over and over again. Go hunting for a fire. Sweat also described how he had felt different his entire life. He wrote to Jamison, "As a child growing up, I never did the normal thing, like learning how to ride a bike, play sports, do boyish things. Instead, I wanted to play house out in the woods, making straw houses,
54:35 Speaker 00 pretending to be the lady next door and dare my brothers to enter my house without knocking. It was funny. We used to call each other, one brother and I, Mrs. Lady. I always wanted to walk uptown to McCrory's dime store, only to steal doll babies. My brother stole racing car toys. Even look in white folks trash and find yeast bread just to taste it and bring it home. I get aroused by just the thought of big shoes and big patent leather boots from childhood all the way up to even now. I always wondered why I liked to masturbate over my uncle's shoes,
55:17 Speaker 00 sleep with them in his bed when he's away, my father's shoes too. I always was glad to see darkness fall so that I could sneak outside and go behind the house, where my father's bedroom and peep through the window, only to see him lying on the bed, reading the paper. I would masturbate over his big, black, shiny shoes. Crazy stuff, right? But no one never found out about these obsessions I have. I kept them hidden, as you stated in your letter. When we had church meetings in our home, I can still picture this one member, standing outside in the backyard, congregating with others.
55:57 Speaker 00 I could see him through a bathroom window and have fantasies of him by ejecting off. His shoes were an orange, brown color, but military style. I wonder if he still has those.
56:11 Speaker 01 Okay, it's uh.
56:13 Speaker 00 Woo, we are getting a lot here.
56:16 Speaker 01 It's having me little flashbacks about the, uh, what's that one serial killer that like to, uh, masturbate into women's shoes, especially the red pumps.
56:26 Speaker 00 Oh, Jerry, uh, Bruto's?
56:28 Speaker 01 Yeah.
56:29 Speaker 00 Yeah, he, he's, he has no trouble telling this guy, uh, kind of bearing his soul to this reporter.
56:38 Speaker 01 It doesn't seem like he's holding back.
56:40 Speaker 00 And maybe it was cathartic to get it off his chest. I don't know.
56:45 Speaker 01 Well, clearly he has a fascination towards the men in his life, uncle, dad.
56:50 Speaker 00 And apparently shoes.
56:52 Speaker 01 And shoes.
56:53 Speaker 00 He went on to say, you asked, were there any special relationships while living on the bomb street? The answer is no. There were a few one night stands, sort of speak, but nothing to hold on to. I don't look to have a romantic relationship as a normal human being would. Love roses and red wine sort of thing. Mine's was more of choosing the person for crazy reasons. It's like, ooh, he has a nice funky walk or maybe enjoy their companionship, but don't come by often. Most of these experiences ended violently. Some involve police and some I took matters in my own hand.
57:36 Speaker 01 And there you have it, right? There's the, uh, I'll burn your house down with you in it.
57:41 Speaker 00 Maybe that was his way of ending some relationships. He said, it really goes all the way back to childhood. Never felt loved by family. And even now I say I love them, but it's very hard to feel in my heart, even during visits. They pretend also, I know, because it's all the expression on their faces that tells me so. And even on the phone, I never probably will learn the reason why. I trusted others' judgment and decisions over time, over mine. And should I say, just easy to be persuaded. I have trouble explaining why I do certain things. I looked for answers to many questions, but only left with more question marks. Why, why, why?
58:25 Speaker 00 Even here on my record, it states personality disorder. I'll be your friend, yet turn around and don't want anything else to do with you. Crazy. Occasionally, Sweat went to LGBTQ clubs in the city. There were times when he found himself attracted, even obsessed with a man for inexplicable reasons. He wrote, "I had a special friend. We used to go to clubs almost every night, drinking and smoking. We had a nice time, but there was always this need to be loved by young guys on the street. I wasn't a thug, but was attracted to street life. So after leaving the clubs and bars,
59:07 Speaker 00 he would take me home and ask if I needed the car for the next day. Of course, I'd say yes, but that same night I went cruising up Georgia Avenue and picked up this young guy named Tyrone. We became best of friends until I became obsessed with him, which drove me to set his house afire. Actually, his aunt's house on Peabody and Third. She was slightly injured and the house was damaged, just the basement where he lived. I was glad she didn't get hurt. Well, Tyrone was a boxer and very handsome, and he used to come over to my apartment on Wednesday night to watch Dynasty. The night before the fire, I went inside the basement of the place he lived
59:50 Speaker 00 and took all his clothes, tennis shoes, some of which I bought for him. He wore a size 12 shoe. That was attractive to me and I would actually go to bed with his shoes on my pillow and to smell the odor." Oh, so bizarre. Well, we're getting more into what attracted him. Yes. Right? Obviously, he was attracted to guys. He didn't have, in his own words, like, long-term relationships. He had short relationships. Non-commitment stuff. Yeah. And, you know, you can speculate on the reasons for those, but it seemed like if it ended badly, he might set somebody's house on fire.
1:00:32 Speaker 00 Now we find out he's not only attracted to shoes, he's attracted to the size of the shoe. And the odor emanating from the shoe. He likes a, a good 12 size with a little maybe stink to it. Sweat was asked to tell the story of the June 2003 fire that killed Lou Edna Jones. He wrote, I think about this house the most because it's where a death occurred. And that was not my intentions, but knew that all the fires there would be risky for human life. That fire occurred about 4:30 a.m. Just as people were waking up or coming to work early morning hours, such as the delivery
1:01:17 Speaker 00 man for the papers, metro bus driver, which is right in that area. I sat there a long time trying to get my nerves together because this was a huge house and wasn't quite sure it would burn. Just like this house, none of the fires were easy, like the house on Anacostia. I sat there so long that the occupants drove past and saw me sitting on their porch. That was about 30 to 40 minutes, way too long and way too early for a fire, 11:30 p.m. What was I thinking? But Dave, it's hard to think that for about three years or more that she's been dead.
1:01:57 Speaker 00 And I often pray for forgiveness and ask God to help the victims' families cope with their struggles. Yesterday, my mother came to visit me here in Terre Haute, along with sisters and nieces. I couldn't help but think of what it's like not to have a mother, no matter how old. You're exactly right about Lou Edna Jones having a lot of grandchildren. And it was her grandson that led me back to that house later that night, only because I didn't know him personally, but saw him get the mail out of the mailbox on the front porch. And he was tall and has a muscular build and I wanted to meet him. So I would live out my fantasy through fire.
1:02:39 Speaker 00 Watching him jump out the window for help and come running to me. I raced home to watch the news. It was saddened about the fatality, but was fascinated by this huge fire. Wow. I'll always remember this house. I think one of the fascinating parts for me is, you know, him saying that he would see a guy that he thought was good looking, find out where he lived. And instead of, you know, maybe trying to bump into him casually on the street or something like that, he thought he just set his house on fire. And when he jumped
1:03:20 Speaker 00 out of like, the second story window, maybe he'd be there to comfort him. It's a very strange thought process.
1:03:28 Speaker 01 Yeah, kind of a weird way to kick off a relationship.
1:03:31 Speaker 00 Yeah, it's not a meet cute by, by any means. They're not going to make a rom com out of it.
1:03:38 Speaker 01 It's kind of like he wants to be the hero, but he's not doing the hero thing, right? He's just happened to be by the house when the fire starts.
1:03:46 Speaker 00 Oh, and by the way, he's the one who started the fire.
1:03:49 Speaker 01 Yes.
1:03:50 Speaker 00 Assuming he's hoping they don't know that part.
1:03:52 Speaker 01 He's interesting, though.
1:03:54 Speaker 00 Well, it's interesting because he's laying everything out for this reporter.
1:04:00 Speaker 01 Yes.
1:04:01 Speaker 00 I mean, it's so rare that we get this kind of intimate details.
1:04:07 Speaker 01 Yeah, we're, I mean, we're actually getting the insight into his thoughts.
1:04:12 Speaker 00 Yeah, and into his way of thinking. During the manhunt, task force members spent all night staking out different areas. Sweat got a thrill from walking past agents doing a stakeout. He wrote, I liked the attention from setting fires, the blue and red lights, flashing from the fire trucks and police cars, the rushing of firefighters hooking up the hoses to put out the flames, and people gathering to watch. They were in arm's length to arrest me. I recognized them at many locations, especially the fires in northeast and PG County. As the holidays approached,
1:04:52 Speaker 00 Sweat went on a fire spree. He set two fires in November 2003 and another a few days before Christmas in New Carrollton. Investigators went to nearby businesses in hopes of getting security footage. A hotel had a tape of a fire truck racing to the burning home, facing the opposite direction with someone in a stopped car flashing their lights at the oncoming truck. They actually sent this video to NASA, but it was too grainy to make out the license plate. Investigators later learned this was Thomas Sweat.
1:05:29 Speaker 01 Who would have thought you would have gotten NASA involved?
1:05:32 Speaker 00 I don't know, but it does seem like they were somewhat close to catching him a couple of times, or at least had the opportunity to possibly catch him. Sweat provided some insight into why he had a Marine issued uniform. He wrote that if he could have been anything, he would have been a Marine. He wanted somewhere to belong and appreciated order. He tried to enlist in the Navy in 1976. He passed the aptitude test, but failed the physical. That rejection stuck with him. He had always wanted to wear a military uniform, and he was attracted to men in uniforms. During his free time, he would
1:06:14 Speaker 00 drive to recruiting stations to watch military officers going into work. If they left their cars unlocked, he would come back at night and steal what he could until he assembled the uniform. He wore the Marine uniform around the apartment, but never outside. He also set fire to recruiter stations as far as Richmond. Sweat stated that he started to report false fires on his block just to initiate a response. He lingered at the scenes of fires. He said to take videos and watch them back later.
1:06:49 Speaker 01 Yeah, we know why he was watching them back later.
1:06:52 Speaker 00 Well, he didn't say what he was doing, but I think we, we can guess on that part. He was also attracted to police officers, but resented their authority. This was most likely because in 1984, he was arrested for stealing $2,500 of jewelry from the home of a man he met at a party. He agreed to a court ordered diversion program and the case was dropped. Sweat admitted, "I burned police cruisers parked at the station and some that were at their residence. To me, they seemed to have power because of their badge and gun. And I felt powerful through fire when they lost their vehicles. Some of the burned cars would remain at the spot for many days.
1:07:35 Speaker 00 And I'd drive back that night and just stare and smell the smoke. One of the stations was on Penn Avenue and Minnesota Avenue Southeast. One of the police residents was Wheeler Road and Miss Ave Southeast. Some people use guns, knives, et cetera, as weapons. I use fire as a source of weapon, not afraid of fire at all, for it is my friend and I miss it. You mentioned small and safe fires. Well, that's correct about the small leading to big fires. And I just needed more satisfaction and excitement. I must have masturbated 100 times a day.
1:08:17 Speaker 00 That's all I wanted to do was make tapes and come home and watch them.
1:08:24 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:08:25 Speaker 00 He was masturbating.
1:08:28 Speaker 01 A lot.
1:08:30 Speaker 00 100 times a day. Man, you, you better have a lot of Gatorade. You need to stay hydrated.
1:08:37 Speaker 01 Gonna need more than Gatorade.
1:08:39 Speaker 00 Yeah, I don't know what they make for that. He also enjoyed setting cars on fire at the Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Yard where bus drivers parked their cars before starting work. If he saw a car, he deemed sexy. He said he wanted to set it on fire.
1:08:57 Speaker 01 Sexy car.
1:08:58 Speaker 00 That car is too sexy. It's got to burn.
1:09:01 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:09:02 Speaker 00 Although he confessed to starting the January 1985 fire that caused two deaths, it wasn't until March 4th, 2018, that the Quincy Place fire was reclassified as a homicide. A detective in the cold case unit reviewed the inquiry that led to the manner of death being changed. Thomas Sweat was considered the main suspect, but no charges were filed. And that doesn't surprise me. Like we said, I mean, this is a guy who barring something unforeseen, you know, just had no chance of getting out of prison. Police Chief Peter Newsom said the earlier media reports should have prompted quicker
1:09:46 Speaker 00 action by authorities. He had said something to a reporter saying he was involved. It was years ago that information had become available. And I would suggest that at that point, probably some additional follow-up should have been done, and it was not. So, you know, he's admitting that they made a mistake. I always appreciate that when the police come out and say that.
1:10:11 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:10:12 Speaker 00 A lot of times they deflect and all that. I mean, they make mistakes. They're human just like us. But, you know, if you make a mistake, come out and admit it.
1:10:20 Speaker 01 Yeah, just own up to it.
1:10:22 Speaker 00 So as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, I mean, there's no doubt. Thomas Sweat was a prolific serial arsonist. He caused untold millions of dollars in property damage. His fires caused multiple deaths. And my thought is, if he hadn't been captured, right, if they hadn't found his DNA, he would have just kept. Continuing to set fires throughout the DC area. And I would say most likely he would have killed more people.
1:10:54 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean, to me, he's a serial arsonist, a serial killer. And he's a serial masturbator. And eventually probably would have found his DNA because he was leaving it all over the place. Just didn't leave it at the scene of the crime yet.
1:11:11 Speaker 00 But that could have happened eventually.
1:11:13 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:11:14 Speaker 00 We don't know. What I thought was fascinating about this case is just, you know, these letters he wrote to this reporter, Dave Jamison.
1:11:23 Speaker 01 Oh, so fascinating.
1:11:24 Speaker 00 Just providing the type of insight that you don't get in a lot of cases.
1:11:29 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:11:30 Speaker 00 About his, you know, exact thinking, his thought process.
1:11:38 Speaker 00 You know, what attracted him? Why he set the fires?
1:11:42 Speaker 01 He would be interesting to talk to because he's so open about.
1:11:47 Speaker 00 Well, and I'm assuming he's being very candid in these letters. I mean, I don't know why you would admit to this stuff if it wasn't true.
1:11:56 Speaker 01 Yeah. I guess if I ever went to the prison that he's at, I'd have to make sure I left my shoes outside though.
1:12:03 Speaker 00 Yeah, well, you only wear a size seven, so I don't think he's going to be attracted to this.
1:12:08 Speaker 01 That's really tiny, man.
1:12:12 Speaker 00 Well, you know what they say? I just thought it was a fascinating case because, I mean, what he did was terrible.
1:12:19 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
1:12:19 Speaker 00 I mean, he killed people. And even in the fires where no one was killed, there were some people injured. But you know what happens if your house gets set on fire? You don't have any place. You got to stay with somebody, but also most people have all their memories.
1:12:37 Speaker 01 Sure.
1:12:38 Speaker 00 Inside their home.
1:12:39 Speaker 01 If they don't have the proper insurance, I mean, you're ruining people's lives.
1:12:44 Speaker 00 Well, even with the insurance, you can't replace a lot of the stuff.
1:12:47 Speaker 01 Exactly.
1:12:48 Speaker 00 The stuff that's sentimental, your kids' things, your, your photo albums, stuff like that. You can replace a lot, but you can't replace everything.
1:12:56 Speaker 01 And if your logic is, I'm going to burn this place in hopes that I'll see an individual again. To the point, I don't care if something really terrible happens to the other people in there, I'm okay with that. That's just not okay.
1:13:14 Speaker 00 Wait, and to what end? It's like, what did he think was going to be the result?
1:13:20 Speaker 01 Yeah, like, oh.
1:13:21 Speaker 00 They were gonna have a relationship?
1:13:23 Speaker 01 And then one day, like, oh, you know how I, how I arranged me meeting you, you know, I'm the one that set your place on fire.
1:13:29 Speaker 00 Yeah, it's just, it is a bizarre way of thinking. Now, you know, there was some stuff put out by his attorney as far as mental illness. He even said himself, he was diagnosed with personality disorder, but I didn't see a lot else as far as like, you know, with the trial and stuff like that. So I just don't think it went anywhere with the psychiatric evaluation. But that's it for our episode on Thomas Swett, the DCR arsonist. We got a voicemail. You want to check that out?
1:13:59 Speaker 01 Let's hear it.
1:14:00 Speaker 02 What's up, guys? It's Tethn Cat. Hey, I was calling to see if I could give a shout out to Becca all the way in Atlanta. What's up, Rogers? I told her to listen to you guys. And after the first episode, she listened to you guys, gained a new follower, a new fan. She loves you guys. Mike, I had to listen to that, uh, Las Cruces Bowling Ball Massacre on Criminology. So I believe you guys got another fan and follower over there. Shout out to you guys, too. Still doing it. Loving the content, loving the cases. Hey, you guys keep your own time ticking. Stay safe.
1:14:32 Speaker 00 I appreciate the voicemail so much.
1:14:35 Speaker 01 And we appreciate you getting as a new listener.
1:14:37 Speaker 00 Oh, absolutely.
1:14:38 Speaker 01 Not only on TCAT and TCAT Unsolved, but over on that other podcast that Mike does, I don't remember its name. It's, you know, something like Crime Today.
1:14:48 Speaker 00 You don't remember who I did it with?
1:14:50 Speaker 01 Yeah, some guy named, uh, I don't know, like he's trying to use our name, Mike or something. I don't know.
1:14:57 Speaker 00 Yeah, but we appreciate it very much.
1:14:58 Speaker 01 We do, man. Thank you.
1:14:59 Speaker 00 All right, buddy. That's it for another episode of True Crime All the Time. So for Mike.
1:15:04 Speaker 01 And Gibby.
1:15:04 Speaker 00 Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.
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