Stephen Graham on Acting, Adolescence & Al Pacino

How did Stephen Graham become one of Britain's best actors? In this Monday episode of The Romesh Ranganathan Show, Romesh is joined by legendary actor, producer, and writer, Stephen Graham, to talk about his incredible, award-winning career, spanning over two decades. Stephen reflects on his career, from This Is England and Boiling Point, to his latest work on Adolescence and Nocturne. He discusses method acting, the challenges of filming in one-shot, and what it takes to disappear into a character. They also get into a discussion on their shared love of music and hip-hop, breakdancing, street fashion, and the culture around it. Plus, he talks about his new book, Letters To Our Sons, which he was prompted to write after Adolescence. He reflects on being a dad and the importance of communication. Plus, Romesh and Stephen discuss Liverpool FC, fragrances, and the unexpected ways their lives have crossed paths. It's an episode you don't want to miss. A Ranga Bee Production in partnership with Platform Media. If therapy is something you've been thinking about, visit Counselling Directory and find a therapist that's right for you: https://www.counselling-directory.org.uk/?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=romesh_sponsorship Go to https://surfshark.com/romesh or use code ROMESH at checkout to get 4 extra months of Surfshark VPN! Chapters 00:00 Intro 03:27 A gift for Stephen 08:39 Music & hip-hop 11:48 Rom’s Ice Cube interview 14:22 On breakdancing & culture 17:15 The street fashion 18:52 Adolescence 26:11 Boiling Point & the one-shot take 31:40 Method acting & This Is England 90 36:50 Stephen’s new book 38:28 On being a dad 46:26 A question from Shanthi 48:03 Being working class & changing the story 53:31 Nocturne 55:28 Imposter Syndrome, fame and being yourself 58:57 Misquoted 01:08:40 Liverpool FC 01:11:08 What fragrance is Romesh wearing? 01:13:10 An exclusive 01:14:38 Outro Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

  It must be amazing to just be a straight up ledge. Like, you are, it's, it's, you're, you're undeniable. I'm deniable. So like, what, what I was, the difference in you and me is, listen, I'm not saying I'm untalented, but there's an argu- there's an argument about me, you know, like, you would accept counter arguments. I'm deniable. You are undeniable. Nobody has got anything bad to say about you. It's amazing.

• 0:24Speaker 01

  Uh, that's slightly, yeah, I mean, I don't know what to say about that. It's, yeah, thank you very much for your very kind words.

• 0:29Speaker 00

  No problem.

• 0:30Speaker 01

  Well, I think you're a legend as well, do you know what I mean?

• 0:32Speaker 00

  Thanks, man, but deeply flawed. And

• 0:35Speaker 01

  Aren't we all as human beings?

• 0:36Speaker 00

  Well, if you look at my online mentions, it's very Marmite, mate.

• 0:42Speaker 00

  There's as many people hate me as like me, I'd say.

• 0:44Speaker 01

  Really?

• 0:44Speaker 00

  Um, yeah, I reckon, yeah. And some of them in my house.

• 0:51Speaker 01

  I'm Stephen Graham and I'm gonna be on The Rames Show.

• 1:05Speaker 02

  Oh, shut up, Rames.

• 1:10Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Counseling Directory. I've been very open about my mental health struggles over the years. I've tried everything from meditation to hypnotherapy. I like to keep an open mind. But something that's really helped me is therapy. I think it can be great if you struggle with anxiety, if you're going through something like a breakup or a loss. It can also be really good if you just need someone to talk to that isn't your partner or your dog. Sometimes it can though feel like even finding a therapist is an uphill struggle. Where do I look? Are they legit? How do I know who's gonna be right for me? So that's why I think Counseling Directory is so great. It helps you find a therapist that's right for you, whether you want to see someone face to face or online.

• 1:49Speaker 00

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• 2:19Speaker 00

  My guest today is a BAFTA, Emmy and Golden Globe winning actor who's widely considered to be one of the most talented and versatile actors of our generation. He's also a writer and producer and runs his own entertainment production company alongside fellow actor and wife Hannah Walters. After early roles in Snatch and Gangs in New York, he rose to prominence playing skinhead combo in Shane Meadows' This Is England. He's since starred in movies including Martin Scorsese's The Irishman and the one-shot film Boiling Point, as well as TV series Boardwalk Empire, Line of Duty, Peaky Blinders, A Thousand Blows, The Virtues and the Netflix phenomenon Adolescence.

• 2:51Speaker 01

  Fucking hell, that's a lot, that, innit?

• 2:52Speaker 00

  It is. It's the legendary Stephen Graham over here, everybody!

• 2:58Speaker 01

  Mate, what? I felt like you was asking me one of the questions there on a game show. I was about to come up with the answer. No, don't bank it, you did, carry on.

• 3:08Speaker 00

  Does that feel amazing here? I mean, you must have heard that a lot, right?

• 3:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've never heard a soliloquy like that, no. There's a lot going on there.

• 3:15Speaker 00

  It's incredible. Now, we've got, we're very excited about this. We've got a present for you.

• 3:25Speaker 00

  We've got, we've got a present for you, Stephen. Now, this is, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give Georgie full credit for this because I said, I think this would be a great gift for Stephen, all right? And Georgie has gone to 15 different shops.

• 3:43Speaker 01

  Oh, God, I'm nervous now.

• 3:45Speaker 00

  I'm gonna show you the gift.

• 3:46Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 3:47Speaker 00

  And then I'm gonna tell you exactly what happened.

• 3:50Speaker 01

  Okay, let me just say though.

• 3:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:52Speaker 01

  I, and Hannah, Hannah gives me so much shit for this, basically. I'm really terrible at pretending that I like something when I don't.

• 4:01Speaker 00

  That's fine. I'm gonna be honest with you. If you don't like this.

• 4:04Speaker 01

  Well, no, I feel really sorry for Georgie, so.

• 4:07Speaker 00

  Well, she looks like she's crying already.

• 4:09Speaker 01

  I haven't even done nothing yet, George.

• 4:12Speaker 00

  All right, here you go. Just see what you think.

• 4:13Speaker 01

  Well, go on. No, you said there was a story, but is this?

• 4:15Speaker 00

  Well, open it first and then I'll tell you. It's a little bit of a story, but have a look, see what you think. If you don't like it, it's fine if you don't like it.

• 4:24Speaker 01

  Oh, oh, oh.

• 4:27Speaker 00

  So this is, this is a vinyl copy of Young MC's Know-How.

• 4:34Speaker 01

  Oh, Georgie, fucking hell, what a present. Oh, my days. That's phenomenal. Now, I'm not blagging it, you can tell, can't you? I've gone tingly and everything. That's absolutely, how did you?

• 4:51Speaker 00

  So, okay, so basically, Georgie went to 15 different record shops. She ended up in a shop called 181, which is like this.

• 4:58Speaker 01

  181, yeah.

• 4:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, hip hop shop and cafe. That, what you're looking at there, this is a genuinely true story. Georgie said, we're looking for a present for Stephen Graham for The Romesh Show. He didn't have any copies. He sold Georgie his copy. What you are holding is the owner of the shop's vinyl copy of that tune.

• 5:17Speaker 01

  Really?

• 5:17Speaker 00

  Because they're so hard to get hold of.

• 5:19Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 5:20Speaker 00

  He's got a little note in there for you. As soon as he found out it's for you.

• 5:23Speaker 01

  I haven't got me bins on.

• 5:24Speaker 00

  That's all right. It says, legend, legend, legend. Here's the record, basically. That's the gist.

• 5:30Speaker 01

  Jeez, what, what's his name? I can't see without that. What's his name?

• 5:33Speaker 00

  So this is Rod, Rod from 181. He, that you are looking at, he said he's played, he's actually played it at clubs. And so you're, that, that record is like done the rounds.

• 5:43Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 5:44Speaker 03

  He said it's quite worn, but it's very loved and it's.

• 5:48Speaker 01

  Rod, thank you very much, mate. Thank you very much.

• 5:51Speaker 00

  How many shops did he go to, Georgie, then?

• 5:53Speaker 01

  What a gift.

• 5:54Speaker 03

  Well, virtually I went to lots. I called around lots of places and.

• 5:59Speaker 00

  No, it's just good to mop up the story, really. Sorry, Stephen. Georgie looked online for about 10 minutes, found Rod.

• 6:05Speaker 01

  Found Rod and said Rod Doos is a very, that's phenomenal.

• 6:08Speaker 00

  And then Rod, when, um, when you went to the shop, Rod got the, this, I'm laughing, this is not actually a, Rod got the record and played it. So Georgie was in the shop.

• 6:17Speaker 01

  And he played it for you just to show you that it was.

• 6:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

• 6:21Speaker 01

  It was very offensive.

• 6:22Speaker 00

  And you were in a bit of a rush, weren't you? So you were going, this is really cool. Oh, my God, this is the full version.

• 6:26Speaker 01

  Can you hurry up, Dave? Yes.

• 6:28Speaker 00

  So anyway, that's for you.

• 6:29Speaker 01

  Is it a remake?

• 6:31Speaker 01

  Wow, thank you so much. That is absolutely brilliant. As soon as I get home, I'm gonna bang that on.

• 6:36Speaker 00

  Yeah. It's, did it, how, did he say it was, I didn't, I didn't realise it'd be that, I didn't think it'd be that difficult job to get it, but.

• 6:42Speaker 03

  I think because it was quite popular.

• 6:43Speaker 01

  Right, at the time.

• 6:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:45Speaker 03

  But actually, it was really hard to track down across London.

• 6:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, and you got shouted at by a punk shop, didn't you?

• 6:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:50Speaker 00

  Phoned up a punk shop and said, have you got Young MC? And they went, this is a punk shop. We can't choose you. That's hip hop. Get off the line. Shall we shout them out? Fucking Nestor Pricks.

• 7:05Speaker 01

  That should be a good name for a punk.

• 7:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, Nestor Pricks is a great name.

• 7:08Speaker 01

  That's a great name.

• 7:09Speaker 00

  Yeah. Um, is it true, do you know all the lyrics to that tune?

• 7:13Speaker 01

  Quite possibly.

• 7:14Speaker 00

  And do you do it karaoke? Is that true?

• 7:16Speaker 01

  Um, I have done it karaoke, I think, once, yeah, yeah, maybe.

• 7:20Speaker 00

  Have you ever been to hip hop karaoke?

• 7:22Speaker 01

  No.

• 7:23Speaker 00

  Mate.

• 7:23Speaker 01

  Where is that?

• 7:24Speaker 00

  So it's run by my mate, Rob Percy. It's like this, it's a travelling night, but it's, it's karaoke, but just hip hop.

• 7:31Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 7:32Speaker 00

  The la, so we do, I, I run a nightclub for the love of hip hop.

• 7:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:35Speaker 00

  And with mine too, so we have, and Rob Percy. So Rob does hip hop karaoke as part of the thing. And we originally did it like at, like, club time, so at 10 till 4. And then we're like, we're too old for this. So now we do it from like 3 till 8. And, um, the, the, the people that come and do it, one guy came and did, um, a digital underground tune. He brought the glass.

• 7:55Speaker 01

  Which one?

• 7:56Speaker 00

  Um, Humpty Dum, Humpty Hum. Yeah, Humpty Dance. And he, he brought some.

• 8:01Speaker 01

  Because in a 69, my Humpty nose will circle your rear. My nose is big.

• 8:05Speaker 01

  I'm not afraid. Big like a pickle. I'm still getting paid.

• 8:08Speaker 00

  Yes, mate. That's a great impression, man.

• 8:11Speaker 01

  Thank you very much.

• 8:12Speaker 00

  Um, he brought glasses with the nose.

• 8:14Speaker 01

  Laid by the ladies and living it. Oh, sorry, now I can't stop thinking of it. Yeah, he brought glasses and everything.

• 8:18Speaker 00

  Glasses and the nose. And somebody else.

• 8:20Speaker 01

  Chain.

• 8:20Speaker 00

  Yeah. If somebody else did food, like, they go in. One guy, I know it's not strictly hip hop, he did 21 seconds, all of the verses, including the chorus. One guy did the whole thing. It was mad. It was mad.

• 8:37Speaker 04

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• 9:36Speaker 00

  Are there, um, how important is music to you now then? I know you've got a hip hop background, but like, how much does music play a part in your life now?

• 9:46Speaker 01

  Massively, there's always music and it's phenomenal of finding new artists and stuff. And, you know, my dad always brings new artists and now obviously you've got Grace and Alfie. Who bring music, there's always music in our house.

• 9:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:59Speaker 01

  It's a, it's a necessity, I think, do you know what I mean?

• 10:02Speaker 00

  Do you use it at work?

• 10:03Speaker 01

  I, I do, yeah, I do in many different ways. I do for kind of, I'll find a, a song that gives me a mood for a character.

• 10:11Speaker 00

  Right.

• 10:12Speaker 01

  Sometimes that's, that's kind of a little road I'll go down. And it can be anything, do you know what I mean? It can be absolutely anything. It can be classical music, it can be hip hop, it can be anything. But just something that find, that I'll get me into that character.

• 10:26Speaker 00

  How do you choose what song? Is it like, do you look at what the character's traits are and then try and find something that matches that? Or, or something that they might listen to, is that what you're thinking?

• 10:35Speaker 01

  No, so it's, it's more that kind of thing, what you said first of all. It's just something organically that I'll listen to a song and it'll give me that feeling or that intention. Do you know what I mean? It'll, it'll just create that mood for me basically. So I tend to find a song to get me into the mood base of the character. Sounds a bit wanky and pretentious like, but it's not.

• 10:55Speaker 00

  Well, I, I would say even if it did sound wanky, which it didn't, it's working for you. You know, like what would be embarrassing is if you did that and you were shit.

• 11:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course.

• 11:05Speaker 00

  That would be.

• 11:05Speaker 01

  No, look, see, I'm randomly, so what I do remember is one of the, one of the ones that really stick out is when I did, um, when I did Baldwalk Empire.

• 11:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:14Speaker 01

  And when I was playing Al Capone, it was kind of, I couldn't, it was, he was a wonderful character to play, do you know what I mean? So much fun, but what I used, cause there was levels to him as well. It wasn't, we were not just trying to play that one dimensional kind of aggressive hard man, do you know what I mean? There was complications to him and, and kind of trying to get into that understanding of who he was as a man.

• 11:36Speaker 01

  And Ben Drew, Plan B, his first album, he had a song on there, which there was a lyric in there, which went, uh, I can't, I'll stab you in the eye with a barrow, the same fucking barrow you used to sign your gyro. And that just, I don't ask me why, but it made me think of Al Capone.

• 11:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 11:54Speaker 01

  Cause when I, when I, I was like, fucking yeah, I will stab you in the eye with a barrow. Do you know what I mean? And what are you, what are you doing with a fucking gyro on the first play? But it was everything else that was in that song, but it created that kind of.

• 12:04Speaker 00

  It gives you that energy that you need to have for that.

• 12:07Speaker 01

  For that particular role.

• 12:08Speaker 00

  Don't fuck with me sort of thing.

• 12:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:10Speaker 00

  I should start listening to that man. Change up my style, do you know what I mean? I feel like I'm too late, but no, but I need to fucking, I need some of that fucking barrow gyro energy, man.

• 12:19Speaker 01

  No, you don't.

• 12:19Speaker 00

  Fucking fuck someone up.

• 12:20Speaker 01

  No, you don't.

• 12:21Speaker 00

  No. I'd love it though.

• 12:23Speaker 01

  You're smooth.

• 12:24Speaker 00

  I'd love to do it for a day.

• 12:26Speaker 01

  You'd love to walk around like that for a day.

• 12:27Speaker 00

  Just to be a fucking bad man. You know, like I, I sometimes like with hip hop in particular, put on like some pretty aggressive tunes and then I'm walking around the supermarket.

• 12:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:37Speaker 00

  And you think you're a proper, I think I'm a proper bad man.

• 12:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know what you mean.

• 12:39Speaker 00

  Choosing cereal.

• 12:40Speaker 01

  A bit of Ice Cube or something like that.

• 12:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 12:42Speaker 01

  And you're pushing the trolley. Yeah, yeah.

• 12:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know exactly what you mean.

• 12:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, I remember, I remember like, I, I interviewed Ice Cube once and, um.

• 12:49Speaker 01

  Did you?

• 12:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, for my radio show. And, um, I said to him, this is not about me, by the way, I'm gonna let you speak at some point. Cause we're gonna get a lot of fucking hate for this. Yeah, well, Dom, we've got Stephen Graham on, do you wanna let him get a couple of words in, you prick? I can already predict the comments, but when I said to him.

• 13:06Speaker 01

  Don't look at them.

• 13:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, I know, I can't help it. It's, I masturbate.

• 13:09Speaker 01

  Don't fuck it, eh? Oh God, no, fucking, yes, keep calling me bad things. Tell me I'm a, eh, no, sorry, I've just said that word, it's really sorry, I didn't mean that.

• 13:20Speaker 00

  It's all right, we do it loads. Don't worry about it.

• 13:22Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 13:23Speaker 00

  No, I, um, I, uh.

• 13:25Speaker 01

  That's a weird perverted image you've just put in my head there now, which I can't shake at the minute.

• 13:28Speaker 00

  No, do you know what? It was a slight exaggeration of the truth.

• 13:31Speaker 01

  I fucking hope so.

• 13:35Speaker 00

  What, but the, the truth, the honest truth is, I, there's something about me that likes seeing people.

• 13:42Speaker 01

  Being negative.

• 13:43Speaker 00

  Having a go, I don't know what it is. I, I like, so if something like that happens, like I want to see it, I don't know why, it's bad, isn't it? It's like some sort of, you don't do that, I take it, well, you don't get any.

• 13:55Speaker 01

  Really look, I, I try not to look, I don't really, do you know what I mean? People will tell me things that might be on it, but I try not to look.

• 14:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:02Speaker 01

  Cause you can go down a rabbit hole, only takes one person to make one bad comment and that sticks in your head.

• 14:07Speaker 00

  Yeah. But when I said to Ice, I said to Ice Cube, he did a song called, he did an album called Death Certificate. On the album, there's a song called Bird in the Hand, right? And it's all about how young black males fall into drug, fell into drug dealing in the nineties. It was like a real snapshot of, of black America at that time. And then I was interviewing him and I said, I just wanted to say, I thought the way you encapsulated the, the journey to drug dealing that a lot of black men in, in, um, in LA were facing is really accurate and on point. I think, Romesh, what are you talking about? How can you possibly know? You grew up in Crawley. Like, well, well done Ice Cube, I thought you nailed that, bro. That was, yeah, what was his response?

• 14:49Speaker 00

  He, he, he just got excited that I knew that, he was just like, thank you. As soon as they think you're an actual fan.

• 14:56Speaker 01

  Fan, yeah.

• 14:56Speaker 00

  Like rappers don't wanna do interviews. So as soon as they know that you've actually listened to something, they're delighted.

• 15:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, we watched that one where you interviewed, uh.

• 15:04Speaker 00

  Ray Kwan?

• 15:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. Wow.

• 15:07Speaker 00

  And Rob rapped in front of him.

• 15:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, and he, yeah, and he wasn't too bad, was he?

• 15:11Speaker 00

  He was all right, actually.

• 15:11Speaker 01

  You've gotta give him his credit, he was all right.

• 15:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was all right.

• 15:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was all right.

• 15:16Speaker 00

  Well, he, I think he benefited from low expectations.

• 15:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:19Speaker 00

  But he was pretty good. Have you doubled, I know you were in a breakdancing crew.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, when I was a kid, yeah.

• 15:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:26Speaker 00

  When's the last time you threw down?

• 15:28Speaker 01

  Probably at a christening and pulled me up or something like that, I think. No, it was, it was, cause it was big where I came from as a kid, you know what I mean? It kind of, well, you know, it just blew up, didn't it really?

• 15:41Speaker 01

  And there was a few people around by ours who were into it and a lot of my cousins were into it. Our little pop, he was brilliant, he was a, God rest his soul, he was a wonderful breakdancer. But there was two lads in particular, Darren Ely and Justin Henry, who were phenomenal. And they kind of took me under the wing a little bit, do you know what I mean? And taught me a few moves and stuff like that and everything. And we used to take our lino down to, down to the townie. When I get old blaster and do it in the townie and, and a couple of quid.

• 16:09Speaker 00

  Did you get a crowd?

• 16:11Speaker 01

  We had, yeah, we had a good circle around us. Yeah, we were all right.

• 16:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 16:14Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean? It was decent, we were good. So we'd go every Saturday morning to the townie.

• 16:20Speaker 01

  And my ma never knew, but my auntie Vera was there once and I'm breaking and then I look up and I was like, oh shit, this is our hair. And I just carried on and then I finished and she was like, what are you doing? I was like, well, we're just breakdancing, she's like, you're very good, yeah. Give me fifty pence or something like that, do you know what I mean? There you go. But it was just, it was, you know, it was something that, it started from the community centre. Going to Como, the boys' club up the top of Ruffey, and then it just kind of progressed from there really.

• 16:47Speaker 00

  And do you, did you indulge in any other stuff? Like, for example, I, I did a little bit of graffiti when I, you know, like when you do the, the pillars of hip hop?

• 16:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, I had a go, yeah. Yeah, on my own skill.

• 16:58Speaker 00

  Did you have a, did you have a tag?

• 17:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, but it was a bit of a dickhead because, uh, my nickname, but it was a good nickname. My nickname was Dutchy.

• 17:08Speaker 00

  Right.

• 17:09Speaker 01

  Cause me and my ma went to Holland for a little bit when I was a kid and I come home and one of my mates, David McMahon, David McMahon went to him. Where have you been? And I was like, oh, we were in Holland and he was like, I'm gonna call you Dutchy from now on. So in Kirby, I'm, I was known as Dutchy.

• 17:23Speaker 00

  It's amazing how nicknames start, isn't it?

• 17:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it's a great nickname, isn't it? Dutchy, it's a boss nickname. But then when you spray it on your own school.

• 17:32Speaker 01

  I mean, no one can say it wasn't you, can they? What a gobshite, Dutchy, yeah. Was that you, Stephen? No, sir. I think it fucking was, yeah. So, yeah, I did a little bit of that.

• 17:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then we'd done it in school, didn't we? Remember we had to back our books and stuff like that?

• 17:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:51Speaker 01

  And you'd do the, like, the block writing and stuff.

• 17:54Speaker 00

  That's why, that's why I kind of loved the whole hip hop thing so much because, and I know a lot of other musicians have this, but it felt like a proper culture. Like you'd have mates that were good, like DJing, you'd know like people that were into breaking, graffiti. You'd ever go spit in a hot sixteen, do you know what I mean? All of that. It was like, it was an amazing, it just totally, you know, I mean, I still slightly occasionally, I'm, I feel like I'm, I still dress like I'm influenced by hip hop. Occasionally Lisa will go to me, this is starting to look like a fancy dress now. And then I have to change.

• 18:27Speaker 01

  I get the same.

• 18:27Speaker 00

  Do you really?

• 18:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I do. There was, in fact, the other day, um, we both came down in a pair of trackies and we looked like a fucking dance troupe or something. We had similar trackies on, me and her, and it was like, oh, what are we doing? But yeah, every now and again, she'll tell me the same thing.

• 18:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:43Speaker 01

  It's like you're fifty three now, do you know what I mean? But you can't help it, can you? When you see a piece of clothing or an item that you really, that reminds you of that nostalgia.

• 18:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, like a number of tracksuits, I just, I ended up getting like a MF Doom tracksuit. Like there was like a, I got a custom MF Doom, like tracksuit made just like his album cover. And it arrived and I showed Lisa and she was like, okay, it's cool. And then I put it on and she went, what are you doing? I said, I'm just coming, she goes, you can't go outside like that. What are you talking about? She goes, I thought it'd be nice that you can have it in the.

• 19:16Speaker 01

  You didn't go out there though, did you?

• 19:17Speaker 00

  No, I wasn't allowed, I wasn't authorised.

• 19:23Speaker 00

  She goes, Rom, you can't leave that. Are you joking?

• 19:26Speaker 01

  Well, Lisa's got your best interests at heart, though, hasn't she?

• 19:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, and hers as well, mate.

• 19:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it is, of course, yeah.

• 19:31Speaker 00

  Just sort of people looking like, you're all right with him.

• 19:33Speaker 01

  Well, it does look a little tiny bit slightly dead. I say noncey.

• 19:38Speaker 01

  Grand man walking in a full suit.

• 19:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, Lisa's like, I can't.

• 19:40Speaker 01

  Either that or you're in the mafia, do you know what I mean? Yeah.

• 19:42Speaker 00

  Or you're in, yeah. I don't mind the mafia thing. Well, obviously, I don't, it goes without saying that I don't wanna be looking like a nonce.

• 19:49Speaker 01

  No, of course.

• 19:50Speaker 00

  No, not again.

• 19:51Speaker 01

  No.

• 19:51Speaker 00

  Um, now, let's talk a little bit. I don't, if you're sick of talking about adolescence.

• 19:56Speaker 01

  No, no, of course not.

• 19:57Speaker 00

  The impact of that.

• 19:58Speaker 01

  The gift that keeps on giving.

• 19:59Speaker 00

  The impact of that show, unbelievable. You decided to, you know, we had, we had Jack Thorne on the podcast.

• 20:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I saw that.

• 20:07Speaker 00

  And, you know, he was talking about your initial idea for it and just this whole thing about young men in our country and, and, and the impact that adolescence had, the, the conversations that it's spawned. Have you been able to kind of really sit in and appreciate the impact that, that you guys have had through making that?

• 20:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, um, obviously, look, when we made it, we had no idea what it was gonna be like. Uh, we never thought it'd be as, anywhere near as successful as what it was. We made it and we made it with integrity and we made it with love and, you know, we just wanted to tell the story that, that we wanted to put out there. We, we had no, no other aspirations for it to become what it became. Um, we, we never thought it'd get involved in politics or anything like that. That was not our intention. Our intention was merely to just look at the subject and have a look at it from a different perspective. And Jack is the most gifted writer. And I had this idea, you know, when I was in the car with Phil, I just kinda said, I think this is what it is. This is what I'd like to do.

• 21:10Speaker 01

  Because there'd been a few incidents, um, particularly in Liverpool, a young girl was stabbed to death just a few days before Christmas or maybe even Christmas Eve. Uh, forgive me for not remembering, but she was attacked by, uh, three lads and she was stabbed to death. And then there was the young girl in, was it Hull, the young transgender girl that was lured into the park and then she was stabbed to death. And so it was kind of, it made me just think, what's, what's happening now? What's going on? Where's this coming from? So we had, we had no real idea what it was gonna be. We knew the structure of it, but then Jack looked into it and his, his wonderful, um, assistant, Marielle. I think she kind of said, look at the manosphere.

• 21:54Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 21:54Speaker 01

  I had no idea what it was or I didn't understand it at all.

• 21:57Speaker 00

  So it really was the incidents you weren't, you hadn't, you weren't thinking about the manosphere right at the beginning?

• 22:01Speaker 01

  No, I was thinking, I just wanted to look at the fact that why would a young lad stab a young girl? What would that be? And then I had kind of, I remembered when we were kids in school, I remember there was, there was a situation where a lad said something to a girl and it was innocuous. And then at the end of, at the end of school, her brother battered this kid for something really simple, do you know what I mean? But it was the way she took umbrage to it. And then I just thought about the possibilities of her saying something to him or doing something to him or rejecting him in a certain way. And then his ego and his identity being so kind of in a place where he felt he had no other option but to, to attack her.

• 22:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:41Speaker 01

  But I didn't know what that was, but we just knew that was gonna be the concept of the story. And then obviously, you know, Jack looked into all of that side of it and wrote that beautiful third episode with just the two of them, Owen and Erin.

• 22:54Speaker 00

  Um, Erin, obviously, I used to be Erin's head of year.

• 22:57Speaker 01

  I know, yeah, that's my dad, innit?

• 22:59Speaker 00

  Well, she was, um, so Lisa, my wife, who, that school is where I met Lisa. So I used to go, I used to be head of sixth form and then I'd go to watch the drama performances. And Erin was like, you could just tell Erin was gonna be.

• 23:12Speaker 01

  She's a talent.

• 23:13Speaker 00

  You know, like, this, just, some people have just got it, haven't they?

• 23:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 23:19Speaker 00

  And she just, as soon, you just go and watch it, she was just incredible, even, even then, man. It's, it's amazing.

• 23:26Speaker 01

  You can see it, you can spot talent.

• 23:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:28Speaker 01

  You can really see it, do you know what I mean? You can, and you, that kind of thing, you can't teach. You can teach technique.

• 23:34Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 23:35Speaker 01

  And you can teach, you know, how to dissect a script and how to look through it and how to find the one certain means and the motivations for your character. But talent, I don't, I don't think you can teach talent at all.

• 23:45Speaker 00

  No, there's like, you can, you can get to there, can't you? And then there's something else that you're just born with or whatever.

• 23:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, and we, we just never knew it was gonna be what it was. But I remember Jack told you, you know, with the success of it all, even when we were over there in, in America and going to all these wonderful awards ceremonies and that, you know, I was like, well, let's get a bus. Let's get a bus, cause I wanted us all to be together.

• 24:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:07Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean? Cause you never get to share those experiences. They're kind of, you know, you're picked up by a car and you're saying, it's all lovely, don't get, you don't get, it's, it's a strange environment and a weird world, but I just wanted us to share it together. And there was something lovely about us all being in that same bus and travelling together and thankfully, look, you know, it was, it was one of those nights and we, we all kinda came away with a trophy, but it's not about that. It was about the fact that we made something with honesty and with integrity and with passion and with love. And it was colloquial. It was a simple British story, but yet it resonated.

• 24:42Speaker 00

  It's, it's an interesting thing because like, you know, you talk about you didn't know how big it was gonna be, right? And you, it's a really organic origin where you just thought, I wanna talk about this. I wanna do something about this. And then not only did it change the landscape of television in terms of like, you know, it, it, it, it had such an impact. It also changed national discourse, do you mean? And obviously you couldn't have predicted that was gonna be the case.

• 25:07Speaker 01

  Not at all.

• 25:08Speaker 00

  How did it feel to create a piece of art that has done that, you know, because the manosphere in particular is something that we, you know, we've, we, I, I do think adolescence was like, it was kind of, uh, it, it, it accelerated and exacerbated that conversation about all of that, didn't it? How did it feel to be, to be watching that and seeing that? And I mean, you can't have, obviously you couldn't have imagined that. Did it, I mean, you, you've, that's a legacy thing. I mean, not that you needed that for your legacy, but it's pretty amazing. You've made an indelible mark, right?

• 25:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it, thank you very much for saying that, but you, you don't see it like that. You, you know, you, you know yourself, you do the work and, and then it's open for everyone's interpretation of what they wish to take from it.

• 25:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  So we never had any idea it was gonna be like that. But for me, if I'm completely honest, you know, pushing the trolley in Tesco's or, you know, this is the supermarkets out there, but that's the closest one to our house. Um, when we go there, you know, and, and sometimes Anna goes, I'll, she'll go, right, I'm going to Tesco's. I'll go, I'll come with you. And she'll go, no, I wanna get in and out. And I'm like, oh, all right then. But you know, look, it's, it's being approached by people, by men and women and, you know, uh, proper, real, average, everyday people, normal people like myself, like who we are and just saying thank you for that piece because what it's done is it's made a lot of parents kind of try and understand their kids a lot more.

• 26:31Speaker 01

  And, you know, we said, at the very beginning, when we were thinking about it and talking about it, Hannah said a wonderful thing and I'll never forget. She said, our objective and our aim for this is to try and make parents open the doors, open the bedroom doors and see what's going on. And just begin that line of communication. And that was kind of the thing that it was. That's, that's all we, that was, that was all we could have expected.

• 26:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:56Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean? That was all we could have expected and that was all we ever wanted. So it's predominantly for me, it's more when people, you know, when people say thank you because they've began that conversation. So for me, that's the, that's the most important thing for me.

• 27:10Speaker 00

  Um, the one-shot stuff feels like the most stressful way of doing anything. Um, would you wanna do more of it? Cause it just seems so, I, I can't, I can't even begin to imagine what it's like to do something like that.

• 27:25Speaker 01

  It's the best thing ever. It's the most exhilarating. Look, you've done plays, you've done stage.

• 27:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:30Speaker 01

  So you know what?

• 27:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, but, yeah, I have, yeah.

• 27:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, you have and you were great, you know what I mean? So you know what it's like. You know that kind of performance element to something. But if you take that concept and what this, what this did, which was beautiful, which was married both of those mediums. So you have the naturalism and the authenticity and truth of television and film, but then you're also in a performance state.

• 27:53Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 27:53Speaker 01

  So, and, and again, you know, I'm not wanting to sound wacky in any way, shape or form, but it was kind of the most zen I've ever been.

• 28:00Speaker 00

  Right.

• 28:00Speaker 01

  Because you're a collective, every single one of you is a vital to what's going on.

• 28:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:05Speaker 01

  And when, to me personally, it's not about acting, it's about being. So when you're in that presence and when you're in that space and everyone's in it together, the energy's unbelievable. Do you know what I mean? You tune in and you lock in and you're just, you're, you're in it. Cause it's all about listening to each other, isn't it? It's all about being present in that moment. And so you just jump on and the whole thing just moves on its own. There's loads of preparation involved. Matt, our D O P U is phenomenal. And Phil, our wonderful director, you know, they plan it meticulously. Along with our first A D, Sarah, who was phenomenal. She's a general, she was, she's the best first A D in the business.

• 28:47Speaker 01

  But they planned it meticulously to the extent where they were in a little car driving from the house to the police station going, right, how long did that take then? Do you know what I mean? They were doing that, they were doing that like four weeks before we got in the car.

• 29:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 29:01Speaker 01

  So you, you work on it meticulously. So it's like a fine tuned machine. And then as soon as we're all ready and we go, you say action and it just flows. But you're in the moment completely. There's, there's not, the, the excitement and the energy is unbelievable. And you have to really listen and you have to be present.

• 29:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:19Speaker 01

  Because anything can happen. Like in real life, if something goes wrong, we'll go with it.

• 29:23Speaker 00

  Right, right, right.

• 29:24Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean? And it came from that oiling point. So if someone drops a plate, then, you know, people drop plates in restaurants. So just carry on.

• 29:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:33Speaker 01

  Just see what happens with it. So to me, it's the most exhilarating I've ever been performing.

• 29:38Speaker 00

  Yeah. And it's so, cause obviously when you watch it, when you watch something like that, you are, you just go, holy shit, that looks so hard to do. But you're saying over and above that. It adds, is it, is adding something to your performance?

• 29:52Speaker 01

  Absolutely, yeah, because look as well, and in, in many respects, you know, I, I've been number seventy-two on a call sheet and, and you walk in and you're filming for a day and you're like kind of, oh hello everyone and, and you know, some people are lovely and some people you're like, oh, all right, wasn't it, so the experience can be varied, whereas on that production particularly and on Boiling Point, even if you were number seventy-two on a call sheet, you were with us for three weeks.

• 30:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:20Speaker 01

  Because you were involved in the whole rehearsal process, so you were integral to it, do you know what I mean? And then when it, when the thing's moving along and you're, we're coming to you now, your game's raised, you're ready, so, and, and that's what it does, we were, we were a collective, do you know, it was like a big, and I, and I, I know people say this, but we were a big family.

• 30:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:41Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean? And we all took care of each other because you all want what's best for the production, you all wanna do the best you possibly can, it's about passing the ball to each other.

• 30:49Speaker 00

  Right.

• 30:49Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean? So when it's coming for your moment and you know it's coming and we're round the corner and you've got someone.

• 30:55Speaker 00

  But the adrenaline must be through the roof, man.

• 30:57Speaker 01

  So it's just energy, you're harnessing this energy.

• 31:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:01Speaker 01

  As you're going through the whole production and it's like a, it's like a well-oiled machine, but it has to look like it's happened for the first time.

• 31:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:09Speaker 01

  You have to be so present and so in the moment.

• 31:12Speaker 06

  I loved Boiling Point, I thought it was awesome.

• 31:15Speaker 00

  I find it's incredibly stressful watch as well.

• 31:17Speaker 06

  Yeah, and that's, it was, it's such a, really puts you in that, you know, you are in it, but like, do you have to know your character so much better because you, you, you might be reacting to something, so you don't know what you actually might have to react to if something does go wrong?

• 31:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, but not better because you do, you know, look, if, um, for me, I've been very blessed with the people I've worked with, um, but for me, like ten years of, of drama school was all done in, um, doing one film with Shane Meadows.

• 31:47Speaker 00

  Right.

• 31:47Speaker 01

  Just because of the way he helps you to construct a person, a human being that you know inside out and back to front. And look, there's lots of different stuff and, you know, Stanislavski and there's lots of different methods and techniques, Utter Hagen and things like that, where you do study a character and you get to know the character and, but with Shane, the way Shane goes about it, you get to breathe it and you know it inside out and back to front, you know what his favourite colour is, you know what, you know what his favourite socks are.

• 32:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:16Speaker 01

  You know what undies he wears, you know his favourite music, you go into it in a depth and in a level that is, then allows you to be open and play any kind of, excuse me, situation or possibility.

• 32:28Speaker 00

  So the, the idea is you get, you know the character so well.

• 32:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:32Speaker 00

  That you could, li- literally you could go to a part, like a real life part and you would be that guy. You know exactly how that person's responding in every situation.

• 32:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, one of the maddest experiences I've ever had in me life, um, and I don't think I've ever, one of the strangest experiences I've ever had, was when we all, when we all came back to meet to do, um, This is England ninety, he was telling me that, uh, you know, look, you, you've been homeless, you've been on the street for a bit and you, you're a drunk and so I was like, okay, all right, yeah, wow, yeah, okay, I get that. And then everyone was getting to do these little things, these little improvisations and then he sends us off and then we kind of put a little bit of a beard on me and he put me in these clothes and he went, and he gave me like, I think he gave me one pound twenty or something like that.

• 33:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:16Speaker 01

  And went right, going to Sheffield. And I was like, what? And he went, going to Sheffield. So I ended up going into Sheffield, walking, like big fuzzy hair and that and a coat and, and, but you're in character.

• 33:28Speaker 00

  Right.

• 33:29Speaker 01

  And I'm in Sheffield and I'm walking about the streets and all that and everything and I'm like asking for money and stuff like that and no one recognised me at all. I mean, I, you know, it was one of those things.

• 33:40Speaker 00

  And they might have done, they thought, bloody hell, what's happened to Stephen?

• 33:42Speaker 01

  Well, they might have done, but what I'm saying is, I, and this is the weirdness of it.

• 33:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:47Speaker 01

  Somehow I ended up with a load of alcoholics and a load of drunks at the back of a shop.

• 33:51Speaker 00

  Right.

• 33:52Speaker 01

  That were offering me a place to stay for the night in the corner round the back and they made, give me a cup of tea and they were asking me questions. And so I'm talking to these real people and I'm having to think about the actual truth of the character. I'm saying I've got ironich a bit ago and, you know, I've been low and I've got a place to stay and they, they took me in.

• 34:13Speaker 00

  That's amazing.

• 34:14Speaker 01

  But I felt terrible because I'm thinking, fucking hell, shit, this, I'm, but I'm also, I felt like some FBI agent undercover. I'm like, shit, I'm going deep here.

• 34:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 34:23Speaker 01

  I'm going deep, I've gotta, I've, I've gotta try and find a way to get out of this in a minute.

• 34:27Speaker 00

  Stephen's been researching his character for six months now.

• 34:29Speaker 01

  And we don't know where he is. But it was getting, but it was also getting scary because there was a little fight kicking off between two of them and I'm sitting here with me cup of tea, like being quite sheepish, thinking, fucking hell.

• 34:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:41Speaker 01

  And you would have never known that this round the corner place existed where there was all these people, do you know what I mean?

• 34:47Speaker 00

  But, and also I imagine you don't know how people look at homeless people, you know, un- until you've experienced that, right?

• 34:56Speaker 01

  And that was the other thing, Romesh, that was the other thing, when I was walking through and I, and I know no one recognised me because of the, the great beard, the hair and everything and the way I looked, when I was walking through, I've never felt that, that invisible, ever.

• 35:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 35:10Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean? And people were looking down on you. There was a couple that'd smile at you when you'd put, when you'd show, you'd raise your head and you'd dare to make eye contact.

• 35:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:21Speaker 01

  There was a few people that looked at you with sympathy, do you know what I mean? But the majority were just like, fucking, didn't want nothing to do with you.

• 35:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I just imagine it's just like.

• 35:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:29Speaker 00

  Blinkers on and like, and then.

• 35:30Speaker 01

  And they had like rips in me kecks and that and they had half a shoe hanging off and, you know, dirty feet and that, so I looked the part.

• 35:36Speaker 00

  That's incredible, man.

• 35:37Speaker 01

  It was unbelievable. It was the best experience I've ever had.

• 35:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:41Speaker 01

  With that kind of research and looking into something and finding a character.

• 35:46Speaker 00

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• 38:21Speaker 00

  Um. Now, let's talk about the book. Adolescence prompted you to write this book. Stephen Graham, Letters to Our Sons. Can you just talk to me a little bit about the the origin of this, like how this all came about?

• 38:32Speaker 01

  It came about, my wonderful friend Jude, who I've known for like thirty-three years. Uh, and she works for a publishing company now, um, an agency. And Ollie had this idea for her son, who also, you know, co-created it. She had this wonderful idea for her son when he was turning, is it thirteen when you have your bar mitzvah, I think, isn't it? So she got a few men in his life to write him a letter, just like some advice and things like that. And I think Jude's sister knows her, so it's kind of, the way it comes together is then Jude ended up at ours going, look, this is, this is really interesting. Do you think there's anything we can do with it?

• 39:11Speaker 01

  And I went, well, the way it would work is if we got dads to write letters to, to the sons. I think that's a possibility for it. So that's kind of the embryo of the idea. That's where it came from.

• 39:24Speaker 00

  And so it's, it's just, it's lots of fathers writing to their sons.

• 39:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:30Speaker 00

  And you've got, you've got some, you know, well-known people, and then you've just got, you know, members of the public, right?

• 39:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, we, we put it out there and, you know, we had a great team behind the whole push. They went to, they went to community centres, they went to football grounds, um, they went to the libraries and we reached out and we had everyone from, and I, you know, from bimmen to barristers, send letters in. And it was more of a kind of, I don't know, I don't know about you, but you know, look, for me personally, I mean, I'm a soppy twat. Um, I am. I cry at the drop of a hat, you know what I mean? I'm just, yeah, I'm, I don't know. But I tell my kids I love them all the time. Do you know what I mean? And I'm extremely tactile. I adore my children.

• 40:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:15Speaker 01

  I don't my world. I don't my world. Everything I do, I do for them. Do you know what I mean? And my wife, but I adore my children.

• 40:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:21Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And, and I tell them that all the time. And, you know, uh, we've got a wonderful relationship. But I know some men find it difficult, some of my mates find it difficult to communicate with their sons. So we just thought it'd be something to, kind of, a love letter to your son.

• 40:38Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 40:39Speaker 01

  And taking that time, taking that time to sit down and write the letter and think of your son or your sons. It's a very meditative kind of thing that happens. You did it.

• 40:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:52Speaker 01

  You experienced it.

• 40:53Speaker 00

  Yeah. So, so I, I think that my experience of submitting a letter for this, and I was, I was very grateful to be asked. But it's that thing of like, I'm, I'm similar to you in terms of I tell my boys I love them all the time. I would say to a point where they're like, dad, we get it.

• 41:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:08Speaker 00

  Yeah. Do you know what I mean?

• 41:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 41:10Speaker 00

  You support and love us on whatever we do. You'll be behind us. We get it. Do you know what I mean?

• 41:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. Yeah, Charles. Yeah, whatever. Yeah.

• 41:17Speaker 00

  It made me, uh, engage with, what did I actually want for my book? You know, like, what do I actually, what advice do I actually want to give them? Because like, I remember when I was growing up, my mum and dad, like, they came over from Sri Lanka. They want me to do really, really well, you know, and so they want me to get a great job. They want me to be secure and all of this. And we butted heads about that because I wanted to do other things and, you know, that, and that was a thing. And so I thought to myself, well, I want my boys to, to choose to do something they love. But then equally, I don't want that to be the be all and end all. So you start thinking about like, you know, what do I want for the boys? And the truth is, I just want them to be content in their lives. Do you know what I mean?

• 41:59Speaker 01

  Happy.

• 41:59Speaker 00

  Happy. And so then you go, well, what, what do I say to them that I think is my help in, in doing that? And it made me think about that in a way that weirdly I hadn't sat, I probably had all of those elements of those thoughts at some point, do you know what I mean? And had those conversations with them. But to put it all together and go, this is the, I am putting this all together in one thing to my boys. What do I want to say? And, um, it was an, it was an amazing experience putting it together.

• 42:27Speaker 01

  It is a beautiful experience, isn't it?

• 42:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's incredible. I, I think, you know, I think when you look through these letters, you know, some of them are, some of them are funny, some of them are, are, are emotional and, and all of them feel very, very honest.

• 42:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:43Speaker 00

  And

• 42:45Speaker 00

  as a dad, I don't, I don't even know if you need to be a dad. I mean, I know that George, like Georgie read some of it and it made you emotional. Lisa's read some of it.

• 42:53Speaker 01

  Beautiful. I think it's, it's a wonderful thing.

• 42:56Speaker 00

  I don't think you need to be a dad to go to read, to read these letters. And you can't help but be moved by what these fathers are imparting to their sons because you can feel, I don't, look, this might turn to sound like wanky. You can feel these fathers grappling with what it is they want to say to their kids, right? Uh, uh, and that is compelling. Do you, do you know what I mean? And you sort of go, I can, I can feel you sat thinking, what do I want to say to myself?

• 43:30Speaker 01

  How do I put this down?

• 43:30Speaker 00

  Yeah. How do I put this together? It's, it's an amazing thing. And it's made, uh, it's actually, you know, it's sort of changed the way I think about like, you know, the way I think about expressing things to the boys, do you know what I mean? Because I want them to be guided and it's made me think about how I interact. You know, you, you sort of want to put that across them in, in every way that you can. Do you know what I mean? And it, I think, I think writing my letter and then looking through some of the other letters, it really makes you think about, and I don't want to sound too heavy, it makes you think about what we're doing as parents. What, what are you supposed to do for your kids, man? Do you know what I mean? Because you don't want to go, this is the set in stone path that I need you to take. That is so far from what I want to do.

• 44:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:13Speaker 00

  But equally, you know, they have to make mistakes. They're gonna, they're gonna experience negatives, right? How do I give them enough? How do I give them a toolkit that whatever they come across, they're gonna be able to deal with it? Do you know what I mean? It's, it's an unbelievable, it's an unbelievable idea. I don't think you can read it for more than about ten minutes before you start to get a bit emotional, Jude.

• 44:36Speaker 01

  I mean, even sometimes you flick it up on the first page, you're like, oh, oh, God, you know what I mean? But it's one of those things you can keep coming back to.

• 44:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:45Speaker 01

  And also the same thing, which is, you know, which was what you were saying, my mate Leon. He's, his lads, um, I don't know how old he is, his lads are about maybe twenty-four, twenty-five. Um, and look, he won't mind me saying this, do you know what I mean? But he, him and his mum separated when he was like seven. Um, and Leon's been through a few different relationships trying to find that right person. Um, and he sat down, and I think it's that art and it's that act of sitting down with some paper, with a pen, because it's ancient.

• 45:14Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 45:15Speaker 01

  It's ancient and we don't do it often. Do you know what I mean? We don't, you did it in school because you had to do it.

• 45:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:21Speaker 01

  But to sit down with that pen and actually think like what you said about his boy and about what he means to him and about the things he wishes to express to him. He said it broke him. And he realised throughout that process that no matter what's been happening in his life, his son has been that one constant.

• 45:39Speaker 00

  Right.

• 45:40Speaker 01

  His rock. Do you know what I mean? So it's, it's that, it's that kind of sitting down, taking the time and just writing. And then if people read it, which hopefully they do, and if it inspires one person to write their own letter to their son, then again, that's the objective complete, isn't it?

• 45:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. It's, it's, I mean, look, it was, it was a gift to me to write the letter.

• 46:03Speaker 01

  No, thank you.

• 46:04Speaker 00

  I showed it to the, I showed it to Lisa. Lisa started crying. And then she said, you've got to show this to the boys. So I showed it to the boys. I sent it to the boys. And I said, I sent it on what's, on the family WhatsApp. And I just said, look, I've written this letter. It's me being like, because obviously our love language is ripping the piss out of each other, right? So I said, it's, it's quite earnest. I'm just telling you that straight off the bat. See what you think. And then my oldest son said, I love this so much, dad. My middle son was like, thanks so much, dad. It's a great letter. And then my youngest son just went, great letter, bro.

• 46:37Speaker 00

  And the thing is, you know what I think about that is I think like, with those boys, I think your kids, my kids sometimes, you know, they are expressive and they say, I love you, love you, love you.

• 46:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:46Speaker 00

  But some, they're just getting on with their lives. Their job is to not make you feel better as a parent. That is not on their list of, that's not on their list of things to do.

• 46:54Speaker 01

  So much more important things to do.

• 46:55Speaker 00

  They've got other shit going on, do you know what I mean? So you can't expect that from your kids. But I've said it. Do you know what I mean? Now, I've said it now, right? And so whatever happens now, they know that. They know that's how I feel. And I, and I think that's, that's what's so amazing about this book. And I think that, I think as a parent or even as a non-parent reading that, it will make you reflect on how you interact with your loved ones regardless. Do you know what I mean? Because it's, it's a really powerful thing, man. It's an amazing thing you've put together.

• 47:26Speaker 01

  It's been an honour to be a part of.

• 47:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:29Speaker 01

  And the team involved, I think we had over three and a half thousand letters entered. Um, and it's, I think there's two hundred and odd in there, but the selection process as well. So, you know, I'd just like to take this opportunity to thank everybody that sent a letter in. Not, not every letter that came in could make it, but they all were a part of the process of making it what it is.

• 47:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:51Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean?

• 47:52Speaker 00

  No, it's, it's so good, man. It's so good.

• 47:53Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 47:54Speaker 00

  So thank you. Uh, we've got a question from my mum now that I don't know what it is. Uh, she sent in a voice note.

• 47:59Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 48:01Speaker 02

  Hi, Stephen. I'm Shanti. Ramis is mom.

• 48:04Speaker 01

  I know you.

• 48:04Speaker 02

  Congratulations on all your success. I can't believe you are on the podcast. You are acting royalty. I hear you have an amazing wife and you were raised by a very strong woman. What have you learned from all strong women in your life? Love to know. You have a wonderful day. Enjoy the podcast. Take care, Stephen. Bye bye.

• 48:35Speaker 01

  Wow, what a question.

• 48:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, what a question. Phil's loaded that. Um, I'm asking about strong women in your life. I wonder what inspired her to ask that question?

• 48:47Speaker 01

  Well, dare I say, dare I say, um, yeah, uh, to listen.

• 48:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:54Speaker 01

  That's what I've learned from the strong women in my life, to listen and to do, to listen and to do to the best of my ability.

• 49:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 49:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, you know, uh, um, there was, there was just me and my mum for the first ten years and my mum, God bless her soul, was a wonderful woman. Um, and if anything, you know, she, she taught me, she taught me a lot of things, um, but predominantly that you're never above anyone and you're never below anyone, treat everyone equally.

• 49:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:23Speaker 01

  Do you know, we all have a right to be seen. That's kind of the way my mum brought me up. Um, and I don't know if that was, you know, you know, that was, that was something that I've kept.

• 49:32Speaker 00

  Well, that feels like if, if you, anybody that talks about working with you, uh, it sort of is reflected in how you work on, like you're, you are very keen to, my impression is, you know, uh, I, I, I've, I've never worked with you directly, but like, when people that have worked with you, you, my impression is that you are making sure that everybody involved from top to bottom is, it feels seen as included in your part. I mean, you talked about it earlier when you were talking about adolescence. Part of a team and, you know, it's that you're getting away from this hierarchical idea of, of making stuff, right?

• 50:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm not a big fan of that. And, you know, you only get the best out of people when you make them feel like they belong and they're involved, you know what I mean? And, and I, I'm not saying it's because I'm a working class kid and anything like that, but the opportunities aren't really there that much, do you know what I mean? For people like me who, who speak the way I speak or come from where I come from. So if I've managed to get into this position and I'm, I feel very blessed and very privileged to be able to do what I do, but I've worked my arse off, do you know what I mean? There's been times when, you know, many, in our early days, me and Hannah were counting money to go and buy fucking beans and bread, you know what I mean? From across the road. That's just the truth of it. That's the reality of it. That was kind of where we were, but.

• 50:46Speaker 00

  This is like, so you, you weren't getting work and you were just struggling?

• 50:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, there was, there was plenty of time, uh, and it's, you know, look, and Hannah kind of put her career on hold completely. Uh, while I tried to pursue the acting.

• 50:59Speaker 00

  Right.

• 51:00Speaker 01

  Because she, you know, she went, she went and did a teaching job. She was a teacher. She taught six, six form, A level, uh, drama and English. And she, she did other jobs as well, do you know what I mean? In order to, to try and keep me going in many ways. And ultimately, that, that was a massive sacrifice. And that's something I'm so grateful for because her ultimate aim and goal when, you know, when she was younger and she's had opportunities now and, you know, hopefully she will have more, was to be an actress.

• 51:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:30Speaker 01

  But she put that on hold for me, which is something that I, you know, I'll always cherish. Because that, that the faith and the backing that she gave me in them situations. But I also feel now that, and that's, you know, when we set this little production company up, um, it was that kind of, the ethos and, and the philosophy which we try to pursue is the fact that we're trying to create opportunities for working class kids and kids, not just kids, but anyone who wants to get into the industry. Trying to create them opportunities for them and give them them chances. Because you only keep what you have by giving it away.

• 52:04Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 52:04Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean? So it's kind of trying to create a platform for that. And that's the stories we wish to tell as well.

• 52:10Speaker 00

  Do you think it's got better for working class actors?

• 52:14Speaker 01

  Um, it, it's, it's changed. Look, when, when I was young, I mean, one of my biggest heroes of all time is Gary Oldman.

• 52:21Speaker 00

  Right, yeah, yeah.

• 52:22Speaker 01

  It's, it's, it's changed, but for me, there was Gary Oldman, there was Kathy Burke. Um, you, you had him on the other day, there was Ray Winston, do you know what I mean? Ian Hart for me as well. Um, there was, there was lots of working class, because of the stories that were being told, you know what I mean? Alan Clark made some wonderful films. Absolutely wonderful films. So there was lots of those working class stories being told. Today, I think they're less.

• 52:49Speaker 00

  Right.

• 52:49Speaker 01

  Um, and it's gone, it's moved in a different way. It's not, you know, the kind of stories. Look, the work that I've always tried to pursue and tried to be involved in, and it has been choices that I've made. But I've, I'm not necessarily, I'm not saying that they were overly political, but it's kind of stories of social realism. And stories that are telling honest accounts of ordinary people in all, in extraordinary circumstances.

• 53:14Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 53:16Speaker 01

  And I don't know if that stuff's being made as much anymore. Um, I don't think it is. I don't see it as often as what I used to.

• 53:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 53:24Speaker 01

  But there's other avenues, don't get me wrong. There are other avenues, but you, you know, you can only play what's out there.

• 53:30Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 53:30Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean? So I feel we have an obligation as well to try and tell stories of those people and represent those people honestly and truthfully.

• 53:38Speaker 00

  There's kind of two types of representation in there, because there's representation where that thing about them is what the story is about.

• 53:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:46Speaker 00

  Do you know what I mean? And then there is a type of representation where that thing about them is just texture for the story, you know, it's, it's just a story and they happen to be working class. So it's just a story. And they happen to be black, you know, you, do you know what I mean? That's not the front and centre of the thing.

• 54:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:03Speaker 00

  And that sometimes you feel like there's not enough of that, right?

• 54:06Speaker 01

  There's not enough of that. That's exactly it. I mean, look, for example, you take, you take Ashley.

• 54:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:11Speaker 01

  Um, who I feel is a wonderful actor and he's a phenomenal actor. And Ashley's, a lot of Ashley's work were, you know, in Top Boy. He was phenomenal. He was brilliant. The whole cast were.

• 54:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:21Speaker 01

  And, okay, and I see those stories that need to be told and them stories are great to be told. But not every story is about that, which is what you're saying. That's why, that's why it was important to show Ashley as a police officer. And I think no one expected him to be in that role and no one expected it, no one expected him to play it the way he did.

• 54:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:39Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean? But you've met Ashley a few times, haven't you? And I know Ashley, I've known Ashley for over twenty years. He's a wonderful man. He's a family man, do you know what I mean? But we'd never see those qualities that he has. So I really wanted to go have a look what else he can do.

• 54:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:56Speaker 01

  I felt like that, that was a necessity for me, do you know what I mean?

• 55:00Speaker 00

  Yeah. Um, can we talk a bit about Nocturne? This, uh, this is your new thing where you're playing a diabolical, diabolically cunning serial killer, is that right?

• 55:09Speaker 01

  Diabolically cunning serial killer.

• 55:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, not just cunning, diabolically cunning.

• 55:14Speaker 01

  Diabolically, who said that?

• 55:16Speaker 00

  That's a quote from the, yeah, it's a direct quote, diabolically cunning, yeah.

• 55:20Speaker 01

  Oh, is that a compliment?

• 55:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, I guess, well, if you're a serial killer, I, I, I, do you know what I mean?

• 55:26Speaker 01

  No, yeah.

• 55:27Speaker 00

  If you're a serial killer, you want to be diabolically cunning and punctual. Those, those are the two things.

• 55:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, you have to be bang on sound.

• 55:35Speaker 00

  Um, how did you prepare to play that guy?

• 55:36Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 55:39Speaker 00

  What tunes are you banging out for that?

• 55:41Speaker 01

  Well, I'll be dead honest with you.

• 55:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:45Speaker 01

  Hannah's obsessed with serial killers.

• 55:48Speaker 00

  Right.

• 55:48Speaker 01

  And.

• 55:49Speaker 00

  In a cool way or in a?

• 55:51Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 55:52Speaker 00

  Right.

• 55:53Speaker 01

  She's not far from writing a letter, wait, do you know what I mean? One of them slightly. Sorry, love.

• 56:00Speaker 01

  She's already written one. Yeah, she probably, she probably got a fucking pen pal somewhere, do you know what I mean? Who I know nothing about. And all these parcels that are saying, I'm like, let's watch this now. I don't look anymore because there's so many.

• 56:11Speaker 00

  I see it from your side.

• 56:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, if I was you, I would have probably done the same thing. Um, no, no. Um, so basically to start it off, she just, she, I was like, I'm not gonna do this, but she was like, well, watch, watch some of these with me. Um, yeah, I became obsessed with watching them. And then things just sink in, don't they? Do you know what I mean? But it's all about the script. It's all in the script. It has to start with the script. And we've got a wonderful director who started it all off, Tim Van Patten.

• 56:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:40Speaker 01

  Who I'd worked with before in adolescence. And I loved him. He's, he's fantastic. So it was the director for me and the script. Then it was the complexities of the character. And I just thought, I've never done this. I've never done anything like this before.

• 56:52Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 56:53Speaker 01

  And I just really wanted to have a go, do you know what I mean? And see what I could do with it.

• 56:57Speaker 00

  When did you realise that you were so shit hot at this? Cause like, because.

• 57:01Speaker 01

  You never do.

• 57:02Speaker 00

  Because, but the thing is like you, it's difficult because you are Stephen Graham, right? But the way you're spoken about. You know, like you think, conversations in pubs are had about, you're one of the greats, right? Like, like you're so, but you're so you're so good and so versatile at what you do. Do you like, for example, I'd love to know, do you have any imposter syndrome? Do you have any doubts about?

• 57:24Speaker 01

  Absolutely, yeah. I go through some, yeah, I've got, I'm doing a job coming up soon and, and already those little tiny fears and doubts and those insecurities are kicking in. And my head, my head can play a lot of tricks on me, do you know what I mean? My mind can really try and self sabotage myself to, to an extent.

• 57:43Speaker 00

  Self sabotage is one of my favourite hobbies, man. I love it.

• 57:45Speaker 01

  Well, wanking to what people are writing about is fucking really ridiculous, do you know what I mean? That's next level. We need to have a proper conversation, Rom lad. I think you need to sit down with someone. Fucking hell, no one's, I don't blame Lisa for half the things she says. Um. Imagine her catching, imagine catching him. What, what are you, it's not even porn on there, do you know what I mean? He's reading the negative things about himself.

• 58:10Speaker 01

  Fucking hell, lads. That's terrible. See, I told you, you put the image in my head and I can't get rid of it. It's your fucking fault.

• 58:17Speaker 00

  That's, do you know what? We've given you two gifts today.

• 58:22Speaker 01

  No, I don't see, look, and this is the weird thing as well, right? This is the thing with it for me, properly, if I'm completely honest. I don't see myself as, I still, I go to Tesco's, I'm at the tip three times a week, you know what I mean? Cause the shit she's got me collecting off the back. Um, I live my life as I've always lived my life. Um, it's, nothing has changed. I don't, this perception of fame and success and things like that, I don't see it that way.

• 58:50Speaker 00

  Right.

• 58:50Speaker 01

  Cause I'm still just Steven doing what he's doing, do you know what I mean?

• 58:53Speaker 00

  But it is, I don't know, was it deliberate? I think you wear it very lightly and there is another world in which the person that's done the stuff that you've done, you could have come in here, you could come in here very differently, you could be like entourage'd up, you know.

• 59:07Speaker 01

  That's a twat, innit? That's, that's a twat. Let's be honest, that's a twat. That's a twat. There are lots of twats in our industry.

• 59:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 59:17Speaker 01

  Loads of them.

• 59:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:19Speaker 01

  But, you know, there's loads of wonderful people as well. You wonder, I'm not lying, am I, I'm telling the truth.

• 59:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 59:24Speaker 01

  There's a load of twats out there.

• 59:26Speaker 00

  None of them are here.

• 59:27Speaker 01

  No, no, I don't see any of these, Tony, they're all wonderful.

• 59:31Speaker 00

  Um, but yeah, yeah, but it feels like, yeah, I just think for your, what you've done and how you carry yourself.

• 59:40Speaker 01

  Well, I'm no more important than anyone else, you know what I mean? But it, you, but again, it's for me, it's that, that kind of self doubt. And I, you know, I would say only over the past five years, maybe that imposter syndrome has decreased.

• 59:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:55Speaker 01

  Uh, especially, you know, since myself and Hannah get to sit at the table and be a part of those adult conversations now. With respect to products that, productions that we've got going on and stuff, do you know what I mean? So there is a change in it and we do, me and her constantly pinch ourselves and look at each other and go, what the hell are we, you know, you're sat in a fancy restaurant and all that. And we say it all the time, we go, I didn't find ours could see us now, you know what I mean? Cause it is, you know.

• 1:00:22Speaker 00

  It is good, I think it's so healthy to do that, man.

• 1:00:24Speaker 01

  Absolutely, absolutely.

• 1:00:26Speaker 00

  Right, we're gonna play a little game with you now, Steve. Zero stakes, zero jeopardy.

• 1:00:30Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:00:31Speaker 00

  It's called Misquoted. I'm gonna, um.

• 1:00:33Speaker 01

  He's good at this game show shit, innit?

• 1:00:35Speaker 00

  Welcome to Misquoted.

• 1:00:40Speaker 00

  So I'm gonna give you some quotes, some of them you said, some of them you didn't. You've just got to tell me whether you think you said it or not.

• 1:00:44Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:00:45Speaker 00

  Okay. Here's your funny, uh, here's your funny, here's your first one, fuck. Here's your first one. She's funny as fuck, I find her dead saucy. Did you or did you not say that?

• 1:00:57Speaker 01

  Kind of sounds like my language maybe. Um, I'm gonna say, wow, who's that about? Um, this is hard, I'm gonna say, yeah.

• 1:01:07Speaker 00

  You did say it about Hannah.

• 1:01:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, good, get in there, yes, yes. Yeah, I did, yeah, of course, yeah, funny as fuck. And I find her dead saucy. Yeah, I don't know, I remember saying it now.

• 1:01:20Speaker 00

  It's the GQ in, uh, last year, actually.

• 1:01:22Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:01:23Speaker 00

  Uh, it's good to find each other funny, right? That's a, in, in a relationship, it's the best, right?

• 1:01:29Speaker 01

  Imperative, imperative. She's my bestie mate, you know what I mean? And she is funny as fuck.

• 1:01:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, she's proper funny.

• 1:01:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, and dead saucy.

• 1:01:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, dead saucy, yeah.

• 1:01:39Speaker 00

  Uh, what's it?

• 1:01:40Speaker 01

  I don't have to wank at people writing things about me, so, yeah. I'm all right in Nazi apartment salad. I'm not having a sad, angry wank on my own. Looking at things that people have said negatively about me.

• 1:01:53Speaker 00

  What a terrible runner I set up for this episode. No, it's my fault, it's my fault. Uh, okay, here's your next one. Um, I didn't wanna put a foot wrong with Al Pacino. Did you ever say that?

• 1:02:06Speaker 01

  No, I wouldn't have, but see, put a foot wrong is not my linguistics.

• 1:02:11Speaker 00

  Not your vernacular, uh, you didn't say that. You sl- you said, what's, what's happened to me?

• 1:02:16Speaker 01

  You can't say anything, you didn't slap her, you're sorry, this is my brother, man.

• 1:02:20Speaker 00

  How close to a stroke would I have to be before you guys would intervene?

• 1:02:28Speaker 00

  Because you're just sitting here, Steve has had to say something, I'm clearly having some sort of fucking episode. And you're just letting it happen.

• 1:02:37Speaker 01

  How close to a stroke would I have to be before you said cut?

• 1:02:48Speaker 01

  Fucking hell.

• 1:02:49Speaker 00

  Oh shit.

• 1:02:54Speaker 00

  Steven, what you actually said was, um, I slapped an ice cream out of Al Pacino's hand is what you said.

• 1:03:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:02Speaker 00

  And this is, um, you improv that, didn't you?

• 1:03:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:05Speaker 00

  That takes guts, doesn't it?

• 1:03:08Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, but it's also that kind of being able to play, do you know what I mean? And having that ability to, to kind of know your character, like we were saying earlier on. I'll tell you what, how it actually happened was, and this is where I'm like, oh, fucking hell. You see, we were, but before, miles before I got there, we were reading it, cause you know, I always read stuff with Hannah as well. Um, and my dyslexia, she helps me out with that quite a, quite a lot, you know what I mean? And, and things and, and kind of when I'm like rehearsing with it, I'm never going for it, but I'm like kind of doing bits. And she's my best critic. And we were doing it and I remember snatching the paper out of her hands and she went, what are you doing? I went, well, I'm gonna, I think I might like knock the ice cream off or snatch it.

• 1:03:52Speaker 01

  And she went, okay. And I just thought, oh no, I just didn't think that was any good then, no, fuck. But then on the day I was like, no, I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it. And I said, I didn't say anything to Marty and I didn't say, I told the cameraman and I told the props fella, just, I was like, how many, how many, how much, um, you've got loads of ice cream? And he was like, he was like, yeah, we got plenty. And I was like, we've got loads of the bowls and she, and he's like, yeah, yeah, we've got loads. And I said to the cameraman, right, mate, do something. Are you gonna be over there for it? And he was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're fine. And then, so I left it for the first couple of takes and then on the third take, on the wire, I just went, fuck off, and threw, and just threw the ice cream and that and looked at him and he, and I'll never forget it, he went,

• 1:04:37Speaker 01

  and then, and then I had to run around the table and then he went cut. And then, and then it was the best, I mean, you know, look, he's my, he's, this is, this is the thing, it is, it's, I'm so excited with these people. I'm a massive fan, I love acting, do you know what I mean? I've watched them since I was a kid. Me dad, I used to get the Empire magazine, they had them lovely little postcards. I had Liverpool FA Cup winning team as well, but I had loads of these actors, these wonderful actors on my wall that I used to look at, you know what I mean? So they'd been a part of my life in that respect and watched all the films and everything. So to be opposite him and then to do something and to see the fear in his eyes. And then when he went cut and then I went, did you see that, Marty?

• 1:05:20Speaker 01

  He frightened me, the kid frightened me. And I'm like, what? And he's like, oh. And then we kept doing it and then I ended up cutting me hand and I, and he went, what? And I went, oh, it's all right, I've cut my finger. And he was like, this kid give blood for the scene, he'll give blood for the scene. And I was like, wow.

• 1:05:41Speaker 00

  That's amazing.

• 1:05:41Speaker 01

  It was wonderful, do you know what I mean? That appreciation and that respect, which I respect him hugely and to just be in the moments with him.

• 1:05:51Speaker 00

  But there's a difference though, isn't there, between doing that and being so shit scared to be in that situation? That you just try and be, you just try and be competent, right? That, that is the, that is kind of the easier route to take. What you did was, you took a risk.

• 1:06:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I took a risk.

• 1:06:06Speaker 00

  And that takes courage, doesn't it?

• 1:06:08Speaker 01

  But my character would take risks.

• 1:06:09Speaker 00

  Right, right, right.

• 1:06:10Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean? And it was, it was the, it was the reason why he owed me a shitload of dough and he wasn't paying me. And then he insulted me. So then it's a different thing altogether, do you know what I mean? It changes it. So it's having that freedom to be able to play. And already, you know, like I said before, I'm kind of not preempting, but I'm going, oh, I'm worrying about the thing that I'm gonna be doing. But then having these conversations with you, it's like, oh no, hang on, I'm, I'm actually all right with this, I know what I'm doing. It'll be, I will be all right as long as I play and I don't get locked up and have that fear, do you know what I mean?

• 1:06:44Speaker 00

  Uh, no, it's an amazing thing, man. Uh, okay, here's your next one. You're two for two, by the way, congrats. Uh, my mum used to dress me in some funky looking clothes. I had a navy velvet suit when I was about three.

• 1:06:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I said that and it's a boss little, it's a boss little get up, yeah, yeah.

• 1:07:01Speaker 00

  So were you like dressing, were you dressing good from, from early days?

• 1:07:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, me mum used to, yeah, she, I, I had like a, um, I had an overcoat and all that and I had, um, my uncle Joey's wedding. I had this grey suit with a little grey tie. I had an overcoat and I had a trilby. Um, it was a bollocks, honestly, it was, I looked nuts, you know, it was like, it was on a fucking little, I once was wearing a bad nine or something like that. But yeah, she used to dress me in, yeah, she, me mum was, me mum had a lot of style, yeah.

• 1:07:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, you like your clubbing now, don't you as well?

• 1:07:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I love my clubbing.

• 1:07:38Speaker 00

  You've grown up being a bit of a clothes horse, have you?

• 1:07:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I like, yeah, she'll tell you, I've got too many jackets and trainees, but I bet you're the same.

• 1:07:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm on, I'm on a one in, one out now at my house.

• 1:07:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, um, yeah.

• 1:07:49Speaker 00

  It's very, it's very difficult.

• 1:07:50Speaker 01

  It's not, it's not easy, is it?

• 1:07:51Speaker 00

  No, it's not.

• 1:07:52Speaker 01

  And I love a jacket, don't, do you love a jacket?

• 1:07:54Speaker 00

  Mate, I'm like, my house is like a fucking shack at Emporium. It's so many of them.

• 1:08:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:00Speaker 00

  It's crazy.

• 1:08:01Speaker 01

  What do you reckon that is? Jackets and trainees predominantly, white?

• 1:08:04Speaker 00

  I don't know, man, but like, I've, the number, like, sometimes I'll get gifted a pair of trainers.

• 1:08:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:12Speaker 00

  And I think, I can't get into trouble for that. I've not paid any money, right? Surely this is gonna be received positively, no, mate?

• 1:08:19Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:08:20Speaker 00

  Where are they gonna go?

• 1:08:21Speaker 01

  Where will you put those?

• 1:08:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, where will they go, where are you putting them? Not in my closet.

• 1:08:26Speaker 01

  I've actually nicked a little section of his as well, now you see, yeah.

• 1:08:30Speaker 00

  That's, that's the problem. Oh, look, you've got yourself another pair of trainers.

• 1:08:34Speaker 01

  It's like, no, I didn't, but I didn't pay for them, no.

• 1:08:35Speaker 00

  What can I do?

• 1:08:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:37Speaker 00

  You know what I mean? People wanna give me trainers, reckon, game recognize game, you know what I mean? Uh, okay, here's your next one. I'm a hard man on screen, I'm a hard man at home.

• 1:08:46Speaker 01

  Not at all. No, that's all I'd never say anymore.

• 1:08:50Speaker 00

  The real quote is, my family's always calling me a soppy twat.

• 1:08:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, because I am, yeah.

• 1:08:55Speaker 00

  You're soft guy. It's nice. That's nice, man. Because.

• 1:08:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, um, you know, look, to me, the biggest form of masculinity is vulnerability.

• 1:09:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:09:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's just, that's kind of, that's, that's who I am. Do you know what I mean?

• 1:09:11Speaker 00

  Do you know, I had, um, I get so, I, I want my, you know, when your kids spend time with you, right?

• 1:09:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:17Speaker 00

  Uh, you get that, you get that self doubt because you think they could be doing anything. They've got, they could be hanging out with their mates and whatever. So last, on my last tour, Theo, my eldest, he was sixteen, fifteen, sixteen at the time. I was doing a couple of nights in Birmingham on the tour and I said to him, like, you've got half term, why don't you come up to Birmingham and we can hang out? And he goes, yeah. So he comes up and like, he comes with me, comes to the shows, didn't watch the show, mind you, stayed backstage, played Mario Kart. But anyway, he came to the shows, right? We hung out during the day, went out afterwards. I was, I was so worried that he was having a good time. I kept going to him, you're having a good time, right? You're having a good time. Eventually he went to me, dad, can you do me a favour? Can you just assume I'm having a good time? And if I'm not, I'll let you know.

• 1:09:57Speaker 00

  Because I was checking on him so much, man. It was so embarrassing. Anyway, he's not made plans to come on the next tour.

• 1:10:06Speaker 00

  Here's your next one.

• 1:10:09Speaker 00

  I stopped watching my team Liverpool play live because it fucks with my spiritual equilibrium.

• 1:10:13Speaker 01

  Definitely said that, yeah.

• 1:10:14Speaker 00

  You did say that.

• 1:10:15Speaker 01

  I definitely said that.

• 1:10:16Speaker 00

  So what's the deal with you and watching Liverpool then?

• 1:10:21Speaker 01

  I change a little bit, yeah.

• 1:10:24Speaker 00

  Scary?

• 1:10:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:25Speaker 00

  Shouting?

• 1:10:26Speaker 01

  Very, sweary.

• 1:10:29Speaker 00

  Nice.

• 1:10:29Speaker 01

  Telly.

• 1:10:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:10:30Speaker 01

  Front of.

• 1:10:31Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:10:32Speaker 01

  That close. Yeah. I can go from near to.

• 1:10:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know. Yeah.

• 1:10:38Speaker 00

  Do you ever go to the games?

• 1:10:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. No, no, no, it's different. When I'm at a game, it's different.

• 1:10:42Speaker 00

  It's weird, isn't it?

• 1:10:43Speaker 01

  It's different.

• 1:10:44Speaker 00

  It's so weird how you can sort of handle it when you're there.

• 1:10:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:49Speaker 00

  Watching on TV.

• 1:10:50Speaker 01

  Watching on telly is completely different, isn't it? So I don't, I purposefully try not to watch games now on the telly.

• 1:10:58Speaker 00

  You don't watch Liverpool on the telly at all?

• 1:11:01Speaker 01

  No, no, I try not to. I try not to. Just be, I don't know why. It's been last season and this, the beginning of this season, I, you know, I, I think we'll come good in the end.

• 1:11:12Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:11:13Speaker 01

  He's a wonderful manager.

• 1:11:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:11:14Speaker 01

  I just think we need that right back situation. So it's, but hopefully the big fella's gone in that position now and we'll sort that out. But it's, I don't know. I think we've got some great players, but they're not clicking properly. Once they understand how he works and what he wants from them, I think they'll get it.

• 1:11:30Speaker 00

  I don't think we're seeing this season's Liverpool yet. I think that, that's the truth of it.

• 1:11:34Speaker 01

  I think it may come, but how long, we haven't got long, do you know what I mean? Before you fall back.

• 1:11:38Speaker 00

  I know. Well, that's the problem with the, the Premier League now. It's like, people start making assessments on the season now.

• 1:11:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:45Speaker 00

  Like, it doesn't make any sense, do you know what I mean? But that's where we're at within the game.

• 1:11:49Speaker 01

  And who's your team?

• 1:11:50Speaker 00

  I'm an Arsenal fan.

• 1:11:52Speaker 01

  Phenomenal. He's absolutely phenomenal.

• 1:11:54Speaker 00

  It's exciting.

• 1:11:55Speaker 01

  What a team, do you know what I mean?

• 1:11:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:11:57Speaker 01

  What a manager.

• 1:11:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:11:58Speaker 01

  But they've stuck by him and allowed him to.

• 1:12:01Speaker 00

  Well, he's been given a project, do you know what I mean? And there was a time when you'd be at Arsenal and I remember hearing people go, get this guy out. And I'm like, people were like going, Arteta's not the one.

• 1:12:12Speaker 01

  But it just shows your patience and perseverance, do you know what I mean? And allowing him to develop his own style in that club has completely transformed it.

• 1:12:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:12:22Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean?

• 1:12:22Speaker 00

  Teams don't do that.

• 1:12:23Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:12:24Speaker 00

  Enough, don't they?

• 1:12:24Speaker 01

  Because they want the instant success, do you know what I mean? They need that instant success. And fans, as you know, fans can be very fickle.

• 1:12:32Speaker 00

  Yeah. Um, well, look, you, you're five for five or misquoted. Well done.

• 1:12:36Speaker 01

  Nice one. Thank you very much.

• 1:12:38Speaker 00

  That brings us almost to the end of our podcast. You've been amazing.

• 1:12:41Speaker 01

  What have we done? Wow.

• 1:12:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, I know. That time flies.

• 1:12:44Speaker 01

  I didn't even get to say how lovely you smelt.

• 1:12:48Speaker 00

  Like, Stephen, don't do this.

• 1:12:48Speaker 01

  You do smell gorgeous. That aftershave's gorgeous. What is it, lad?

• 1:12:54Speaker 00

  You're such a fickle shit.

• 1:12:55Speaker 01

  No, no, what is it? I like a nice scent, you know what I mean? Oh, that's another thing. I use scent for my characters to find the mood. I love a nice smell.

• 1:13:03Speaker 00

  It's called.

• 1:13:03Speaker 01

  What is it?

• 1:13:04Speaker 00

  Oud for greatness.

• 1:13:07Speaker 01

  Excuse me?

• 1:13:10Speaker 01

  Come again?

• 1:13:11Speaker 00

  It's called oud.

• 1:13:12Speaker 01

  Rewind. What did you just say? It's called, come on, take your time.

• 1:13:15Speaker 00

  It's such an embarrassing note. It's called oud, oud.

• 1:13:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:18Speaker 00

  For greatness.

• 1:13:20Speaker 01

  Okay. And where did you get your oud for greatness?

• 1:13:25Speaker 00

  I'd, it, the, I would.

• 1:13:28Speaker 01

  Come on.

• 1:13:29Speaker 00

  I was on TikTok.

• 1:13:30Speaker 01

  It's all right. We're in a safe space. Let it out.

• 1:13:34Speaker 01

  You've already told me you wank over things people say about you. I mean, oud for greatness, how you got it? Can't be that bad, can it? Come on.

• 1:13:39Speaker 00

  I was on TikTok and some.

• 1:13:40Speaker 01

  And what were you doing on TikTok?

• 1:13:44Speaker 00

  I was just having a little doom scroll and somebody said, it's so embarrassing.

• 1:13:50Speaker 01

  Go on.

• 1:13:51Speaker 00

  Do you want to get loads of compliments with your fragrance? You should get oud for greatness, man. When you put this on and walk into a room, people cannot stop telling you how great you smell. And I thought,

• 1:14:03Speaker 01

  Click.

• 1:14:04Speaker 00

  And I bought it. It's sad, isn't it? I wanted compliments.

• 1:14:09Speaker 01

  Ah.

• 1:14:11Speaker 01

  Ah, was you a lonely child?

• 1:14:16Speaker 01

  You did have friends, didn't you?

• 1:14:19Speaker 00

  Yeah?

• 1:14:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:20Speaker 00

  Yeah?

• 1:14:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:21Speaker 00

  And a couple of them were visible.

• 1:14:37Speaker 00

  Mate, it's been such an honour to talk to you. The, the last thing I'd love to ask you before we release you into the wild is, we like to try and, uh, have a little moment at the end of the podcast, a dream you have, something you haven't done that you'd love to do, or the best advice you've been given, or something you've never said publicly before. Any of those would be, would be great if you've got anything.

• 1:14:58Speaker 01

  Oh, it's a good question, no?

• 1:15:00Speaker 00

  Thanks.

• 1:15:02Speaker 01

  Um.

• 1:15:03Speaker 00

  I'm amazed I was able to get it out after the stroke.

• 1:15:06Speaker 01

  Um, a dream, something I haven't said.

• 1:15:10Speaker 00

  Well, let me ask you this. You've had such an incredible career.

• 1:15:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:14Speaker 00

  Are you now, like, if you retired now?

• 1:15:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:19Speaker 00

  Are you happy? Like, it, it, or is there some sort of thing? What is the thing that you'd love to have achieved by the time you, you finish up? Or have you done it?

• 1:15:29Speaker 01

  I, I think just, just being able to, to kind of be a part of great projects.

• 1:15:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:15:37Speaker 01

  Um, that, that's basically it for me, do you know what I mean? And, and not, you know, living just for today, being in the day, being in the moment and being present constantly. Yeah, trying to switch the, the monkey mind off.

• 1:15:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:15:50Speaker 01

  Um, no, I'm just so, I'm full of gratitude for everything that I have.

• 1:15:56Speaker 00

  Do you know what, man? Uh, it, it's sort of like the perfect thing because I think you've achieved so much. You are so humble with it and you also try and give back. It's like such an honour to chat to you.

• 1:16:06Speaker 01

  Thank you very much.

• 1:16:06Speaker 00

  Thank you so much for coming on. Please give it up for Stephen Graham over here, everybody.

• 1:16:10Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:16:12Speaker 00

  Mate, legend. Thank you so much for watching and listening to this episode. Before you go, if you've enjoyed this episode and you've not subscribed, that's a bold decision, crazy behaviour. Follow and subscribe to the Romesh Wang and Ethan Show wherever you listen. It helps me, really, like, really helps me. It helps the team and it costs you absolutely nothing. We drop episodes every Monday and Thursday. Mondays, I'm joined by great guests. Thursdays, my mum Shanti joins me to answer your questions and family dilemmas. I'll see you Thursday with mum who, let's face it, is who you're actually here for. If you've got a problem you want to solve or a story you want to share, send it to [email protected],

• 1:16:50Speaker 00

  voice note or text us on 07731 623355. We can't promise good advice, but you might end up on the show. See you soon. See you soon.

• 1:17:04Speaker 04

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