Michael Urie On Shrinking, Working With Harrison Ford & Oh, Mary!

Why Is Everyone Talking About Oh, Mary!? In this episode of The Romesh Ranganathan Show, Romesh is joined by theatre and TV actor, Michael Urie, to talk about the award-winning Apple TV series Shrinking and West End hit Oh, Mary! Michael talks all about his character Brian, working alongside Harrison Ford and Brett Goldstein, and what makes the show's writing so special. He also discusses bringing the hit Broadway comedy Oh, Mary! to London, the magic of performing live, and why theatre creates such a unique relationship between an actor and an audience. Plus, the differences between working in London to his life and career across New York and Los Angeles. Elsewhere, Michael talks about founding Pride Plays, his time on Ugly Betty and the best career advice he's ever received: "Follow the green lights". A Ranga Bee Production in partnership with Platform Media. Chapters: 00:00 Intro 02:08 London vs New York and LA 08:27 A gift for Michael 15:06 On Shrinking 24:08 How important are awards? 28:17 Acting and Harrison Ford 33:20 The Les Mis scene 39:15 A question from Shanthi 42:45 On Oh, Mary! 48:05 Michael’s love of theatre 54:35 Founding Pride Plays 58:22 Misquoted 01:01:52 Ugly Betty 01:05:22 Misquoted continued 01:07:05 The best advice 01:10:10 Outro Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

  So last time I went to New York, I took my, I've got three boys. We went to, me, Lisa and the three boys went to watch Little Shop of Horrors. Yeah, cool. Uh, it was amazing show. Yeah. As we're walking out, a homeless guy sat down, turns to me out of nowhere and goes, "What are you looking at, you fucked little bitch?" And it was, it was out of nowhere, he shouts it at me. It's so loud that people, it draws attention. And then people are like, "Is this guy squaring off with this homeless dude?" My kids, it's the highlight of their trip.

• 0:30Speaker 00

  They fucking loved it, man.

• 0:35Speaker 00

  The rest of it, "Why do you think that homeless guy thought you're such a little bitch, dad?"

• 0:41Speaker 01

  I'm Michael Urie and I'm gonna be on the Romesh Ranganathan Show.

• 0:55Speaker 02

  Oh, shut up, Romesh.

• 0:57Speaker 00

  Uh, okay, let's get into it. So I'm gonna do your intro now.

• 1:00Speaker 01

  Great.

• 1:00Speaker 00

  Uh, my guest today is an award, if you've got any issues with this, let me know. My guest today is an award-winning American stage and screen actor who studied theatre at the prestigious Juilliard School in New York City. As well as classical, oh, why I say New York City like that? As well as classical and contemporary theatre credits, has appeared in hit TV shows including Ugly Betty, Younger, and Apple TV's Smash It Shrinking, a performance that has earned him a Critics' Choice Award and two Emmy nominations. Fresh from his stint on London's West End in O'Meara, is Michael Urie.

• 1:31Speaker 01

  Welcome, everyone.

• 1:33Speaker 00

  What do you think?

• 1:33Speaker 01

  That was a really good intro.

• 1:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, great.

• 1:35Speaker 01

  I can't believe all those things are true.

• 1:37Speaker 00

  Yeah. Is there anything you, we missed out that you'd want added?

• 1:40Speaker 01

  No. Um, handsome, sensitive lover.

• 1:44Speaker 00

  Well, I think that comes across on screen.

• 1:46Speaker 01

  Oh, good, okay.

• 1:46Speaker 00

  I, I think, straight away, you can tell you're handsome. You look like you'd be a sensitive lover.

• 1:52Speaker 01

  Very sensitive.

• 1:52Speaker 00

  Just gentle and considerate of the other person's needs. And not rough, unless it was requested.

• 1:58Speaker 01

  And, and, and if that's what they wanted, I'll, I'll do it.

• 2:00Speaker 00

  Um, but listen, welcome to the podcast.

• 2:02Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 2:03Speaker 00

  We are all massive fans of your work.

• 2:04Speaker 01

  Thank you, so nice.

• 2:05Speaker 00

  Uh, you are fantastic. Um, how are you finding London?

• 2:08Speaker 01

  I love it here. It's so, everything's so, it's so interesting. I know that's like a weird word to say, but I've been trying to figure out this trip, because I've been here lots of times and I've worked here before, and I've been trying to figure out this trip. What is it about London that I love so much? And it's that everywhere I look, it's interesting. It's so old and so beautifully maintained. And like, the new and the old mixed together so well and people are so cool. And, and the streets are so weird, you know, like there'll be an alley and then there'll be a big street and then there'll be a giant bus. And, and, and, you know, I live mostly in New York and...

• 2:49Speaker 00

  Well, because, because a lot of things that you've just said, you could say about New York, right?

• 2:53Speaker 01

  True, yes, true. But New York, I guess, maybe I'm just used to New York because I've lived there so long. But maybe it's also that like, New York is so much newer all around. And it's, I mean, you know, everyone's smelled, there'd be like a pretty rancid smell here. I'll walk by something and I'm like, "Oh, that's awful. That's an awful smell." But in New York, that's what we're really used to. Lots of rats, lots of stinky stuff. And then like some beautiful areas.

• 3:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:20Speaker 01

  Um, and it is a fabulous pace and exciting and there's so much great stuff going on. But it, the buildings are so tall, so like the light, the light is, you know, weird. And, and you, sometimes you feel like you're, you're, it's all closing in on you. And, um, I mean, not to, I love New York, like that's my, that's my home. But it, uh, I think the differences are what make me love London so much. That like, the buildings are short, every street's a little bit different. The grid in New York is very great. It's very easy to get around. You know, it's very easy to find like 16th and 6th because...

• 3:56Speaker 00

  It's great to be a visitor to New York, right?

• 3:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:58Speaker 00

  It's very helpful.

• 3:59Speaker 01

  And, and that's great. And, and riding the train is, is really clear and easy. Because it's just, you know, they go, they don't like, they only go one way or, you know, back and forth. And, but, but, but it gets mundane, I guess. There's something about it that's kind of mundane. It's electric and, uh, very fast-paced, but anyway.

• 4:19Speaker 00

  A lot of people from London or from the UK, or a lot of people that know London sort of go, I think they, they think that New York is the most likely place they'd live in the States, I think. I, I, people feel like it's, there's a lot, it's got a lot in common. And I feel like, you know, I've spent time, I mean, I love New York.

• 4:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:35Speaker 00

  I've also spent time in LA and I've got nothing against LA. And I know you've spent lots of time, you almost exclusively work in LA now.

• 4:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 4:42Speaker 00

  But when, when I go to LA, I do like it, but I don't engage with it in the same way that I do New York. I think New York's got a very specific thing that appeals to Londoners, I think.

• 4:53Speaker 01

  Yes. New York and London, you can hit the ground running. LA takes a long time to figure out.

• 4:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:58Speaker 01

  You have to find like the plate, the area you like to be, the people you like to be around. You can't just like go anywhere and be like, "This is LA," because there's a lot of it that's...

• 5:09Speaker 00

  That is, that is such great stuff for me. Because I remember like going to LA, I was filming it. I turned up and like all of my friends were like, "LA, man, it's good, it's so sick." You go, and I was like, I spent like a few days, I was like, "I don't, is this LA?" Like, I can't. I'm not experiencing what I've heard about, do you know what I mean?

• 5:25Speaker 01

  It's weird. Like, I remember the first time I went, I, I was driving around and I was like, "It's LA." And, and I saw a street and I was like, "That must be an important, La Jolla Street." "I've heard of that. I'm gonna go down that street." And I went down it and I was like, "There's nothing here." That, it's just like, there's a shop, there's a house, there's like, there's nothing that, there's nothing that says LA here. And then I got lost. And then like, an hour later, I finally found my way. Like, that's the other problem with LA. You can make a wrong turn and it'll cost you an hour.

• 5:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:54Speaker 01

  That is a crazy, crazy problem.

• 5:57Speaker 00

  And if you walk, walking in LA is, is illegal, right?

• 6:02Speaker 01

  You will get mugged.

• 6:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:03Speaker 01

  You will get arrested.

• 6:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, you should not.

• 6:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:05Speaker 00

  But then like, I remember we, we moved to LA, my uncle's with me. And he said, "I'm gonna, I'm gonna have a wander around." He had to walk around and he was gone for like an hour, came back. And he said, "Oh, you know the shop down the road, the secondhand shop?" I said, "Yeah." He goes, "The woman that runs it was in Back to the Future."

• 6:24Speaker 00

  And then I was like, "Okay, we're in LA now."

• 6:26Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 6:27Speaker 00

  Do you know what I mean?

• 6:28Speaker 01

  That is LA.

• 6:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:29Speaker 01

  But once you find like the spots you like, it can be really great. And actually, it's taken me many, many years. Like, it's, it's, it's this job, actually, that I have now, Shrinking, that, that has, I, I finally got, I, I finally started living on the east side. Because I was always like, "I'm gonna stay in West Hollywood or Hollywood or Burbank", which is near where I, I'm working. But those are places that I don't really think, I, I, I've never been happy there.

• 7:00Speaker 00

  Right.

• 7:00Speaker 01

  There's, there's, it's too, it, it, there's a lot of like sad stuff in LA. There's a lot of like really like dilapidated buildings and a lot of the industry has left. So there's a lot of like empty studios and there's a lot of, there's a lot of, there's a homeless crisis in LA. And, and, so like, you, you, you have to find the place where you're not, where that, unless you wanna like be around all that stuff and you wanna like, you, you know, engage with all that stuff. You gotta get out of the areas, like I stayed downtown once and downtown's really amazing because it's sort of tall buildings and I'm like, "Oh, this feels familiar." And you'll be walking down the street, it's like, "Oh, this is so beautiful and it's sunny and, and these buildings are great."

• 7:45Speaker 01

  And then you'll turn a corner and it's, suddenly you're terrified for your life. Because there's people that have had serious things happen to them. And they're going through horrible traumas and, and on, on bad drugs. And, um, and then, you know, I've, now I live in Echo Park there, which is the cutest neighbourhood, cutest area. And I'm up a little street and it gets quiet and I don't, and I, and I love it. And I can walk places. I actually can walk places. But yeah, it's not like New York. You can't just like arrive in LA, walk out your door and see the Hollywood sign.

• 8:22Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, that's the thing. New York, you're, you're accessing New York straight away, right?

• 8:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 8:27Speaker 03

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• 9:25Speaker 00

  Um, well, Michael, it's an honour to have you on the podcast. We've actually got you a gift.

• 9:28Speaker 01

  I heard, I was gonna get. This is very nice. Thank you.

• 9:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'll, I'll present it with that comment and then, and then we can talk about what you've got.

• 9:36Speaker 01

  I love all the colours. And I, and I wore this green.

• 9:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:39Speaker 01

  It's really nice.

• 9:40Speaker 00

  We heard, we heard a rumour.

• 9:44Speaker 00

  Now, one of them is sort of slightly counterintuitive.

• 9:47Speaker 01

  Oh, beard oil.

• 9:49Speaker 00

  Beard oil.

• 9:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 9:51Speaker 00

  You don't like having a beard, right?

• 9:52Speaker 01

  No, I don't. I don't. But that's, I, I, I, no, I don't care for my beard. But I-

• 9:59Speaker 00

  Would you describe this as what you've got now as a beard?

• 10:01Speaker 01

  No.

• 10:01Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 10:02Speaker 01

  No, this is like scruff.

• 10:03Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 10:03Speaker 01

  Uh, it's a little lower than it's been. Uh, I, I'm more mustache-y right now. I don't know if you can, I, I, so for Oh Mary, I, I went much lower than usual and I'm growing the mustache. And I, I, I even color it in for the show to make it darker. I don't know what it is. It's like a, it's like a mascara, I think.

• 10:23Speaker 00

  But so it's not, it's not permanent dye, this is like-

• 10:25Speaker 01

  No, no, because in Shrinking, it's, it, uh, uh, it's a little bit more here and then it'll be a little bit less here.

• 10:33Speaker 00

  It does really suit you.

• 10:34Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you.

• 10:34Speaker 00

  But you don't like having it?

• 10:35Speaker 01

  Well, this is the problem. When I, when I auditioned for Shrinking, I was doing a play where I played William Shakespeare and they wanted me to have a big, bushy beard. So I had the most beard I've ever had for that job. And, and I made my audition tape for Shrinking and they were like, you got the job and they liked the beard. And I was like, oh, no. That's terrible.

• 10:58Speaker 01

  So I have, I've had to keep it. And every season I've made it shorter. So that's sort of-

• 11:04Speaker 00

  That's a secret thing you've been doing.

• 11:05Speaker 01

  By season six, I'm gonna be completely bald.

• 11:09Speaker 01

  But I don't like it. I just think I, I, I'm vain and I think I look younger without it.

• 11:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:16Speaker 01

  That's basically it.

• 11:18Speaker 00

  So I, I have flirted with different facial hair.

• 11:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, you have great facial hair.

• 11:23Speaker 00

  That's very kind of you.

• 11:24Speaker 01

  Do you, do you do something to it every day?

• 11:27Speaker 00

  I, I, I have beard oil.

• 11:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, is this, is this the kind?

• 11:30Speaker 00

  It's not the same kind, no.

• 11:31Speaker 01

  Okay, I love a beard-

• 11:32Speaker 00

  Yours is better than what I use, what we've given you.

• 11:34Speaker 01

  I love a beard oil. I do love, that is one thing I like about wearing, oh my gosh, there's so many.

• 11:40Speaker 00

  We thought you, you'd really wanna oil up.

• 11:46Speaker 01

  Wow, all these different flavors. This is, this is a really nice gift.

• 11:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:52Speaker 01

  Well, see, this makes me wanna grow it.

• 11:54Speaker 00

  Well, don't grow it just for the, I don't think you should grow it just for the oil. Don't let the tail wag the dog.

• 12:01Speaker 00

  We also got you a silk eye mask.

• 12:06Speaker 01

  This is the perfect gift.

• 12:07Speaker 00

  Really?

• 12:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 12:08Speaker 00

  Okay, so we now know the beard oils weren't great. From the cha, the change in reaction.

• 12:14Speaker 01

  This is a good gift?

• 12:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:15Speaker 01

  A perfect gift.

• 12:16Speaker 00

  Right. So do you use eye masks?

• 12:18Speaker 01

  I use them every day and I forgot to bring one to London.

• 12:22Speaker 00

  Huh?

• 12:22Speaker 01

  And I wake up to the sun every morning and I don't need to. And now, you know, like, uh, cause I'm, I'm working at night.

• 12:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:28Speaker 01

  So I don't need to. And I always think, oh, and I've been like putting my pillow over my head and every day I think, oh, just go buy one. Just go get one, go somewhere and find one. And I don't have to.

• 12:38Speaker 00

  So, so do you, would you have an, would you, you wouldn't use an eye mask at home then? Or you would?

• 12:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:43Speaker 00

  Every night?

• 12:43Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. I wear, I wear one every night.

• 12:45Speaker 00

  Game changer, sleep wise, is it?

• 12:47Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely.

• 12:48Speaker 00

  I've never done it.

• 12:49Speaker 01

  Oh, it's the best.

• 12:50Speaker 00

  Really?

• 12:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, especially silk. This is the best kind.

• 12:53Speaker 00

  But then do you, what, can I tell you what I find difficult about it? I, I don't mind the idea of wearing an eye mask and I can see all the benefits. It's the grammar of signaling to your partner that you are done talking for the evening. But that's, that's what I find tricky. Do you know what I mean?

• 13:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I hear that.

• 13:10Speaker 00

  So would you continue to have a conversation with the eye mask on?

• 13:14Speaker 01

  Yes, but, but, but I, I go, I'm sort of, I fall asleep almost immediately.

• 13:20Speaker 00

  Right.

• 13:20Speaker 01

  When I, when I put my head on the pillow. So, and my partner knows that. He knows not to, he knows that like,

• 13:27Speaker 01

  he'll keep talking sometimes and be like, are you asleep? Are you, are you even, are you asleep? And I, and I'm, I'm gone.

• 13:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:33Speaker 01

  It's a really, it's like my superpower.

• 13:34Speaker 00

  Does he mind that?

• 13:37Speaker 01

  No, I think he, I think he's charmed by it. I think it was maybe annoying to him at first. There's been times when he's like, wait, wait, wait, wait, you know?

• 13:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 13:44Speaker 01

  Can we finish this before you go to sleep? Um, but, uh, it's, uh, uh, so, but that is a really funny dilemma. If you are chatters in bed.

• 13:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:53Speaker 01

  Before, before bed.

• 13:54Speaker 00

  We like to sort of debrief on the day and stuff.

• 13:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's nice. That's nice.

• 13:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:58Speaker 01

  Well, we don't have kids. I'm sure like by the time you got, like it's alone time too for you, like-

• 14:03Speaker 00

  Yeah. It's the only time we really talk. You know?

• 14:06Speaker 01

  Really?

• 14:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, cause you're just doing functional shit.

• 14:08Speaker 01

  Sure, sure.

• 14:09Speaker 00

  Don't burn that and stop stabbing him. And then, and, and then, then the night draws to a close and you think, oh, we can interact with each other now.

• 14:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:17Speaker 00

  And no, but you sort of do like a, you've been at work for the day and then you, what I don't wanna do is, it's very difficult for me to, to assess when we've finished. Do, do you know what I mean?

• 14:31Speaker 00

  You know, when somebody tells you an anecdote and then you go, oh, yeah, God, that sounds mad.

• 14:37Speaker 00

  No, but that's not the point. Oh, sorry.

• 14:41Speaker 01

  I love that, that you, like, the idea is that you put it on and you're immediately asleep. I mean, that is what, kind of what happens to me.

• 14:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I fall asleep quite quickly.

• 14:49Speaker 01

  But I don't really, I, I, I can fall asleep without, the, the falling asleep isn't the problem. It's waking up and not being able to go back to sleep for me.

• 14:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:56Speaker 01

  If I want to. And especially, um, when the sun's, you know, when the sun comes out.

• 15:02Speaker 00

  How old are you, if you don't mind me asking?

• 15:03Speaker 01

  Forty-five.

• 15:04Speaker 00

  Forty-five. So are you at the, you look much younger by the way. Congratulations on that.

• 15:08Speaker 01

  Imagine if I didn't have the beard.

• 15:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, I know. Well, that, well, that's the other thing. It's, it's sort of, yeah, it, it does take years off you. I'm, I'm thinking about, but it's just my upper lip is so deep. Anyway, let's not-

• 15:20Speaker 01

  But do you, do you, um, do you trim every day? Are you, is it?

• 15:23Speaker 00

  Most days, yeah.

• 15:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:25Speaker 00

  Yeah. Otherwise it starts to get a little bit, you know what I mean?

• 15:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:27Speaker 00

  I want it to look deliberate.

• 15:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. So you, you leave the mustache a little thicker and you go down a little, yeah.

• 15:32Speaker 00

  But I used to have full beard.

• 15:34Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 15:34Speaker 00

  But problem at airports. But anyway, that's, I, I hope you enjoy that. It's very-

• 15:38Speaker 01

  Thank you. No, these are really, and actually beard oil is one of the best parts of having a beard because your face smells good.

• 15:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. It's great. And then you know when people come in to hug and they go, oh God, you smell amazing.

• 15:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 15:50Speaker 00

  Oh, you feel so soft and all that. It's great.

• 15:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, and that, now, when, when someone says your beard feels soft, that also is really nice.

• 15:55Speaker 00

  Although I, I overdid it. Sometimes you can overdo it and it gets a bit shiny, doesn't it?

• 15:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:00Speaker 00

  Anyway, so we need to talk about your career. So I'm so sorry you talked about this.

• 16:02Speaker 01

  No, I don't wanna talk about my stupid career.

• 16:04Speaker 00

  Um, now, congratulations, nominated for outstanding supporting action in a comedy series for your role as Brian in the Apple TV series Shrinking.

• 16:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:12Speaker 00

  Twenty-five and twenty-six. Big up yourself.

• 16:16Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 16:16Speaker 00

  How does that feel?

• 16:17Speaker 01

  It's awesome. I mean, I, it, I wasn't, I, it was a surprise. I mean, like, I didn't see it coming. I can't believe, I just get such good writing. I think, I think that the, the, the writer, we were talking about Brett Goldstein before we came on the air. And, and he had this, he wrote me this thing in season two and it kind of set me up for, um, he wrote me this amazing monologue that I got to do. And then I got to repeat it later. And, um, it was this weird idea that they had where you're gonna do the monologue and then a few episodes later, you're gonna do exactly the same monologue again in a slightly different circumstance. And I was like, okay. And I trust them implicitly. So I was like, okay.

• 17:02Speaker 01

  And it just like really kind of set me up for, I, I, you know, I think, I, I think I had a great, I had a great role. And I was, and I was a great part of the show, a great flavor of the show, but, um, I really, I really, I, I think that that's what made things different for me. And, um, I also think like, the writing on the show is so good that, that there are eight main characters and every episode they, they grow. And it's only a thirty-five minute show, thirty, thirty-five minute show. And that they can do that every single episode, do, they, they, they have eight mouths to feed every week.

• 17:41Speaker 01

  And somehow they give us all something that, uh, it, it makes us evolve into a, a new, and, and, and that we get to play characters a great, you know? It's not, not like a sitcom where it's just same characters, new adventure.

• 17:55Speaker 00

  No. And that, I mean, that's what's so great about it. And I think actually when you're watching it, I think that you're, the evolution of what happens to the characters feels very gentle in, across each episode. And it's only when you sort of think about where you were with these people at the beginning of the first season and now the change is like so dramatic. Do you know what I mean? It's like, it's so, it's, it's beautifully done actually. And, and I think what's great about the show is, uh, is it's really funny. You're so funny.

• 18:25Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 18:26Speaker 00

  And you bring a lot of heart to it. But the earnest moments, for want of a better word, don't ever feel too, it doesn't ever feel too saccharine.

• 18:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:33Speaker 00

  And, and you are actually moved by the episode. A lot, you, you know, it's, it's very moving, some parts of that show. But not in a way where you feel like you're being maneuvered. You know, sometimes when you can feel yourself being carried through that thing.

• 18:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:46Speaker 00

  That doesn't happen.

• 18:46Speaker 01

  Oh, manipulated or-

• 18:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 18:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, they, they, they, they don't like sentimentality.

• 18:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:52Speaker 01

  They don't, they don't like it to be, they like it to be subtle and easy. And actually, a lot of times, um, they'll say, this is what's coming. They'll be like, this is, this is what, this is gonna happen to Brian in the next episode. And they'll explain, or the next few episodes. And they'll be like, this happens and then this happened, and this happened, and then this happens. And I'll be like, whoa, my gosh, that scene's gonna be great. That scene's gonna be great. That's gonna be great. And then I get the script and it's all just like, I, I explain what happened.

• 19:16Speaker 01

  Or it just happened, right before I got here.

• 19:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:19Speaker 01

  Oh, I didn't, we're not doing that scene. That's just, it's one line or it's a text. Oh.

• 19:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 19:27Speaker 01

  But that's how they keep from overdoing it.

• 19:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:31Speaker 01

  It's, it, it stays right on the surface. We never let the audience get ahead of us and we never pound them over the head with it.

• 19:37Speaker 00

  I know that you will be reluctant to say this, cause I know you're quite, you strike me as quite a humble guy. But it's, I think it's fair to say that you, you know, your characters expanded in the show as a result of what you've brought to the character. That's a fair thing to say, isn't it? I, I, I mean, like, I, I actually text Brett about you. Because I knew that I was talking to you today.

• 19:59Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 19:59Speaker 00

  And I said-

• 20:01Speaker 01

  And he said who?

• 20:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, he said, oh, that guy. Yeah, yeah, the workhorse. No, uh, he said-

• 20:06Speaker 01

  He said, he used to be on the show.

• 20:07Speaker 00

  Yeah. He said, he's the loveliest. You'll want to kiss him and that's okay. Maybe when you run out of questions, just kiss.

• 20:16Speaker 01

  Ah.

• 20:18Speaker 00

  And then he said, he's an absolute killer in the show. You write a scene, then pop in his character in the middle and it's amazing.

• 20:26Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 20:26Speaker 00

  One of my favorite people. So there you go.

• 20:28Speaker 01

  That's so nice.

• 20:29Speaker 00

  So funny, so charming. There you go. I mean, he really bigged you up.

• 20:32Speaker 01

  He's a good guy and, and, and we have like, there's a, he, you know, like people think he's like Roy Kent. I mean, I guess people know his comedy now, so, because he's so big now. And they can, so that's what he's kind of like, more like his comedy, but he's nothing like Roy Kent.

• 20:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:48Speaker 01

  He's actually like a cheeky little sweetie.

• 20:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:51Speaker 01

  And.

• 20:52Speaker 00

  Scamp, isn't he?

• 20:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, totally.

• 20:54Speaker 05

  And he's a lot of that.

• 20:55Speaker 01

  You know.

• 20:58Speaker 01

  Oh, when he's Roy Kent, he's down here. I'm really serious.

• 21:00Speaker 00

  Well, I think people, I reckon, like, obviously people know what he sounds like. But I think if you see a photo of Brett.

• 21:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:07Speaker 00

  And then you hear him speak.

• 21:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 21:09Speaker 00

  You, you would be forgiven for thinking somebody else is piping that voice in.

• 21:13Speaker 01

  Totally. Like, who's dubbing Brett?

• 21:16Speaker 05

  Who's that?

• 21:17Speaker 01

  Um, also, I, I mean, he wants, he wants to kiss me. He's, he's a little gay.

• 21:22Speaker 00

  Yeah. I think, I think that is true.

• 21:24Speaker 01

  He's a little gay. And then he wrote a movie for himself with J Lo, which is gay.

• 21:28Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 21:30Speaker 00

  I think that's up there, top five gayest things you could do.

• 21:35Speaker 01

  That's a, sexy with J Lo, that's, that's what I would do.

• 21:41Speaker 01

  I would do the same thing, so. But, uh, yeah, he's the best and he's nominated for an Emmy this year too, for his role on Shrinking.

• 21:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:49Speaker 01

  For guest actor. And, uh, so is Michael J. Fox, um, for his role.

• 21:54Speaker 00

  You, you're up against Harrison.

• 21:56Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 21:57Speaker 00

  What, what's?

• 21:58Speaker 01

  That's so weird.

• 22:01Speaker 00

  What is that?

• 22:02Speaker 01

  My rival.

• 22:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. How does that, that's, that's weird, isn't it?

• 22:05Speaker 01

  It's, it's, it's weird because it's, what's weird is that he hasn't won yet because he should have won. He should have won season one, frankly. Um, and he definitely should have won season two. I mean, what was great about last season, uh, was there were, uh, you know, however many nominees, and most of them were queer.

• 22:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:24Speaker 01

  It was me, Bowen Yang, uh, Coleman Domingo and Jeff Hiller.

• 22:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:28Speaker 01

  And then some straight guys. And Jeff won, which was like amazing.

• 22:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:33Speaker 01

  Cause Jeff's like an old friend of mine and his show, Somebody Somewhere, I don't know if y'all had that here, but it's such a beautiful show and he was so wonderful in it. And I was kind of secretly rooting for Harrison because I really, you know, I mean, I love him. I love him. And I think he's, because he's an action movie star, people don't give him the credit for being like a great actor, but that shit's hard.

• 22:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:00Speaker 01

  That's real acting. And just like, you know, people who do comedy don't win awards, you know, like don't win Oscars and stuff like that. That's hard.

• 23:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:08Speaker 01

  That's hard. Yes, sir. It's hard to cry. It's hard to like be powerful and, and stern and all the things that you win Oscars for are fragile and frail or whatever. But like, so is punching a guy and, and so is like chasing a boulder. Like those things that he does are really, that's good acting. And we give him lifetime achievement awards, but he doesn't win competitive awards and he needs to. He, it's time.

• 23:32Speaker 00

  Well, it's interesting, like if you, you know, Indiana Jones in particular, you sort of think that is an action film.

• 23:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:38Speaker 00

  But part of the reason that film is so, all those, that series of films is so loved is just because of what he brings to that role when there isn't action happening, right?

• 23:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:48Speaker 00

  You know, you sort of think like, that, that film is probably, and this is no disrespect to the writing or the action sequences, greater than the sum of its parts because of the way that Harrison, because of how lovable Indiana Jones is and

• 24:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:02Speaker 00

  what he brings to it. And it never feels like he's reaching either. And I think that's true in Shrinking as well, because that, that character, I think in someone else's hands, sort of the kind of grump, the kind of grump, I guess.

• 24:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:13Speaker 00

  You could easily, easily overplay that hand, right?

• 24:16Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 24:17Speaker 00

  And, and he's like kind of note perfect with that.

• 24:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. He's right in the pocket.

• 24:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:22Speaker 01

  And, yeah, and, and you're right with Indiana Jones, same thing. And he's, and a lot of people, when we started doing Shrinking, they were like, it's weird that he's doing comedy. And I'm like, what do you mean? Indiana Jones is a comedy.

• 24:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 24:34Speaker 01

  Star Wars is a comedy. Like he's been doing, Han Solo is, is the comic relief.

• 24:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:39Speaker 01

  He's been doing comedy our whole lives. He can totally do comedy. But also we lean on his pathos too, on the show all the time.

• 24:49Speaker 00

  But equally, you want to destroy him, right? In this awards thing?

• 24:51Speaker 01

  Oh, well, he's going down.

• 24:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:54Speaker 00

  He has to. Imagine you beat Harrison Ford. Fuck that guy. Am I right?

• 25:01Speaker 01

  Give me that award.

• 25:03Speaker 00

  How, how much, cause you know, obviously you've done, you do theatre and you do TV stuff. And I know theatre is really important to you.

• 25:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:11Speaker 00

  And what goes hand in hand with theatre, I guess, is somebody that loves acting and that sort of telling a story.

• 25:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:17Speaker 00

  So how mu, how important are awards? I mean, it's an external validation, isn't it? Does that, how much does that mean to you?

• 25:22Speaker 01

  I mean, it, it, it's so cool to get nominated and, I mean, it would be so cool to win, obviously. It's great because it like gives you, it just like gives you like a little bit more juice.

• 25:33Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, it's great for the career, isn't it?

• 25:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:34Speaker 00

  It doesn't do any harm.

• 25:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's sort of that. It's like gives you juice and, and, and it's a really nice feather in your cap.

• 25:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:43Speaker 01

  But that's not where we, you know, that's not where we do it. And, and, um, and the real prize is that I have this job. Like, like if we get all these Emmys, get nominated for all these Emmys, maybe we'll get to do the show longer. That's kind of what I think. It's like, I just want the show to keep going and, and I want to keep working. And if that, if this all helps that, great. It, it, it, there's also a lot of stuff that's kind of annoying about, about it. Like, like it's, it's stressful. Like.

• 26:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:11Speaker 01

  Like, you're like, oh, everyone's like, do you think you'll get nominated again? Or do you think you, and, and that's so creepy and weird. And then you have to wake up early and, I mean, I didn't, I don't do it. I, I one time thought I was gonna maybe get nominated for something and I woke up and I watched and I didn't. And I was like, I'm never doing that again. That was so sad.

• 26:32Speaker 00

  Oh, really?

• 26:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. I was like, what a drag. Why did I do that? Ugh. And it was, it was such a bummer. Like I, uh, cause I didn't, I, I got, it wasn't something that I sat, sought out to get nominated. But then people were like, you might, I think you might, I think you might. And then there were some other awards along the way. And I was like, oh, maybe I will, maybe I will.

• 26:53Speaker 00

  I think you might is an unacceptable thing to say, isn't it?

• 26:56Speaker 01

  So weird.

• 26:56Speaker 00

  People think they're being nice, but it's horrible. It's creating a burden for you.

• 27:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:00Speaker 00

  It, it's setting up a potential disappointment, isn't it?

• 27:02Speaker 01

  Yes, totally. Like, I'm like, oh, they're gonna be sad for me now.

• 27:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 27:07Speaker 01

  When I see them.

• 27:08Speaker 00

  Yeah. I thought you would.

• 27:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:11Speaker 00

  You were robbed.

• 27:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you were robbed is one thing, but like, when it's ahead of, ahead of time, like, like, like, like, like a prediction, it's like, eh.

• 27:22Speaker 00

  I know. And, but then I, I think that like, uh, it, it's like you said, there's all these really good reasons to do it. It's really great for the team that make the show, all of that. And I think people forget that because you sort of think, there's part of you that, oh, I don't know how you feel, but part of me that feels like creative stuff, why are we giving it awards? It feels a bit icky, do you know what I mean? This thing, this thing is better than this thing. It doesn't make any sense.

• 27:44Speaker 01

  Comparing, comparing these two shows are so, they're so, it couldn't be more different.

• 27:48Speaker 00

  But, but it does benefit and of the show might run, as you said, the show might run, run longer and stuff like that. But what I feel like is it awakens this part of you that you don't really like, right? Do you, do you know what I mean? It's like that sort of thing of like, you go, oh, I like, I've been nominated. This feels good. But I don't like that it feels good. And now I, I, I'm gonna tell everybody that it's just about being nominated, but I will be sad if I don't win. I have to pretend that I'm not.

• 28:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, and you have to be like, when the, the camera's on you, you're like, huh, huh, okay. What's my face gonna do when I hear it? When it's really, when I really lose, what's my face gonna do? And that was so great last year about Jeff winning.

• 28:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:29Speaker 01

  Was like, we didn't expect him to win and I was so happy for him to win. The show was over. It hadn't gotten anything and it was beautiful. And he, like a win for him was a win for all the, all us queers. And it was, and so my face really did what I wanted it to do and all of us did. There would became this like moment where all the gay guys were like, ah, like all, ah, clutching our pearls. And it was really sweet. And, and, uh, and you know, you don't see that. And, and best actor in a drama. You don't see all the guys like, yay. For each other.

• 29:06Speaker 01

  And, and this year, I really am rooting for Harrison because I think, I mean, I think that's the better move for our show. Like, but I, I, I really want him to win. I love him.

• 29:15Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 29:15Speaker 01

  And talking about like the craft of acting, when I, when I can, when I get him, I love talking about acting with him. Cause I, I've never been in an action movie. I would love to. I love action movies. It's my favorite kind of movie. Um, and I'd love to be in one, but he really takes it seriously. And, and he talks about how, you know, he does his own stunts because that's the best part.

• 29:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:42Speaker 01

  That's the best acting scenes is the, the, and, and you can see it when he's, when he's doing, when he's fighting, it's a struggle. It's not just like some, you know, perfect warrior.

• 29:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:53Speaker 01

  He's a guy.

• 29:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 29:54Speaker 01

  He's a guy like, you know, in an extraordinary situation, throwing himself into it. Oh, he's so good.

• 30:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, he's great.

• 30:01Speaker 01

  What's your favorite Harrison Ford movie? Now I'm interviewing you.

• 30:04Speaker 00

  Uh, I actually tell you, can I tell you what I really loved? I mean, I love all the Indiana Jones films.

• 30:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 30:10Speaker 00

  And, um, but what lies beneath?

• 30:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, Michelle Pfeiffer.

• 30:13Speaker 00

  Oh my God.

• 30:15Speaker 01

  He's, and he's bad.

• 30:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:17Speaker 00

  So there's, I can't remember the exact shot, but I've just got this, she's running away from it or, or something happens and she shuts the door and then you just see his face in the, in the mirror.

• 30:28Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 30:29Speaker 00

  His expression is so horrifying.

• 30:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:32Speaker 00

  It's, it's so great. I mean, yeah, I think that's probably up there, I'd say. What about you?

• 30:37Speaker 01

  It's, well, Working Girl is really important to me.

• 30:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:41Speaker 01

  I told him it's gay canon.

• 30:45Speaker 01

  And he was like, why?

• 30:49Speaker 01

  It's like, because of Alec Baldwin. And I was like, no, not because of Alec Baldwin, because of you. Because you're so sweet and hot and, and, and they're so, you know, she's like this fabulous freak and, and we love her. And that's what, you know, that's what we, that's what we gravitate towards. And that, and the score is amazing and it's just such a great movie. But I think it's The Fugitive.

• 31:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:09Speaker 01

  I could watch The Fugitive right now. From beginning to end.

• 31:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:13Speaker 01

  It's the coolest movie. And it was like a disaster when they were making it.

• 31:16Speaker 00

  Is that right?

• 31:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, they, they, they thought it was gonna be terrible. They were all like, oh, this is gonna be a complete disaster. It was like, they didn't have a script, they didn't have a, and, and then it's just perfect.

• 31:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:26Speaker 01

  And he's so, I mean, of course, Tommy Lee Jones is hilarious and is, uh, won the Oscar. But that doesn't work if Harrison doesn't have the, the tragedy.

• 31:39Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 31:39Speaker 01

  If he doesn't carry that like intense tragedy all the way with him through the, through the movie.

• 31:45Speaker 00

  And have you had, you've had that conversation with him?

• 31:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:47Speaker 00

  What's it like to talk to the guy that did that about that?

• 31:50Speaker 01

  He's, we, he doesn't like, he doesn't really like, he, you can get him to talk about things. You have to be really like, you know, I got him to talk about Star Wars the other day. Cause I was coming here and I was like, where should I hang out when I'm in London? And he, and he was started, and he was, and he, and it was so weird to hear him be like, first time I went for Star Wars. It was the first time I'd ever heard him say Star Wars.

• 32:15Speaker 00

  But that must have felt incredible.

• 32:17Speaker 01

  I was like, I did it. I got him to say it.

• 32:20Speaker 00

  And then you've got to hide your excitement, just like.

• 32:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 32:23Speaker 00

  Oh, I know, right, right.

• 32:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That one.

• 32:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I remember that movie.

• 32:29Speaker 00

  Do you know that's gay canon?

• 32:32Speaker 01

  It is gay canon. That one's gay canon too. But it was.

• 32:37Speaker 00

  But, but, cause the, did he, has he, so did he talk about the experience?

• 32:41Speaker 01

  He didn't talk, he didn't, he was more talking about like the experience of, of being here and shooting it, not like.

• 32:47Speaker 00

  Not the actual.

• 32:47Speaker 01

  More about the London of it, not about the, um.

• 32:50Speaker 00

  No, fair enough.

• 32:51Speaker 01

  But that would be, I think, I don't think he really, cause you know, everybody wants to talk about that. And so he doesn't, he's bored of that.

• 32:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, I can imagine. I mean, just, I can't even imagine what it's like to have people repeat it because they've had an experience with that.

• 33:03Speaker 01

  Well, and also the other thing is, we all know it better than him.

• 33:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.

• 33:09Speaker 01

  He, definitely, we know the movie's better than he knows.

• 33:11Speaker 00

  What about that, you know, when you did that facial expression when, when he takes off the, when he suddenly realized who he is? I don't know.

• 33:22Speaker 01

  I don't know what you're talking about. And, and he doesn't, you know, he, he, he never signs a contract, so he didn't, he, he doesn't, he didn't have a three picture deal. He had a one picture deal.

• 33:31Speaker 00

  Right.

• 33:31Speaker 01

  And that's why they freeze him in carbonite at the end of Empire Strikes Back, cause he wanted off. He's like, I want out of this. And so they were like, all right, all right, well, we'll do this then. And then, and then when they got him back for Return of the Jedi, they.

• 33:43Speaker 00

  That's so funny. It's such a cool story point, isn't it, the carbon, I think? No, he just didn't wanna do it.

• 33:49Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 33:49Speaker 00

  We've had this idea, you're frozen.

• 33:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. But when he was doing the, uh, he came back after season, one of the seasons, and he'd just done the Captain America movie. And I was like, I was like, Harrison, I saw you doing that, how was the Captain America movie? He's like, ah. And I was like, he's like, do you, do you know those movies? I was like, yeah, I love those movies, I've, I've watched them all. And he's like, oh. And then he goes, he goes, I'm the Red Hulk.

• 34:18Speaker 01

  So fun.

• 34:19Speaker 00

  Um, can we talk about that Les Mis scene? It's so brilliant.

• 34:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:25Speaker 00

  You sat in the front of the, just going for it. Um, how did that, how did that come about?

• 34:31Speaker 01

  So Jason Segel and Neil Patrick Harris used to be on a show called How I Met Your Mother together. And I guess when they were shooting that, they would, you know, there was years and years of doing that. And they probably, they're both, Jason's very musical, he taught himself music. And has a great voice, plays piano, taught himself piano. And of course, NPH is a musical theater guy. And they must've just like discovered that they knew all the lyrics to Les Mis.

• 34:58Speaker 00

  Right.

• 34:58Speaker 01

  And they would do that. And then they did it in a couple of, uh, interviews. So, um, that was like a parlor trick that they, that they did. Which I didn't know until, uh, until this came along. Bill Lawrence, my boss, came and knocked on the door and he was like, we got this idea. And anytime he knocks on my door and says, we have this idea, I'm, it's gonna be great. You know, like, he, he's always like, he, you know, he's like, wants to make sure I'm okay with it. But it's always something really fun. Big swing and like the monologues or, or, um, Les Mis. And so he explained it to me and he was like, we're thinking about, we're thinking we're gonna do that. Do you, do you, do you think you, you could learn that? And I was like, learn it?

• 35:41Speaker 01

  Just tell me which part I'm playing. And, um, and, and so I got to be Javert, which is the part I wanted. And what, and I, and like, and like, I'm, I've been into musicals and I can, I can sort of sing. But, uh, it's, it's really more of, uh, it's more like, I'm, I'm really more like holding out pitches than singing. So I'll never actually be in Les Mis, but gosh.

• 36:04Speaker 00

  You could be in Les Mis, couldn't you?

• 36:06Speaker 01

  I could be Tenarié, maybe.

• 36:08Speaker 00

  You got it, you could.

• 36:09Speaker 01

  But Javert, like, you really want a good voice. I don't, I don't know if I could really, I don't know if I could really handle it. I'm more of a comedy, comedy musical theater person, but, but boy, was that a fun day.

• 36:22Speaker 00

  And is it, is it true, or is this a myth, that Harrison didn't know that you were gonna do that?

• 36:27Speaker 01

  He, he knew something was gonna happen.

• 36:30Speaker 00

  Right.

• 36:31Speaker 01

  But the script just said Jimmy and Brian sing the confrontation from Les Mis.

• 36:38Speaker 00

  Right.

• 36:38Speaker 01

  That's all it said. It didn't have like lyrics.

• 36:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:41Speaker 01

  And, and, and I don't think he knew what Les Mis was.

• 36:45Speaker 00

  And he's not gonna have looked it up to know what his reaction is.

• 36:47Speaker 01

  No. And also, he, there's another thing he talks about with acting is, and a reason why he likes doing the action so much. And he talks about this a lot with the Parkinson's. Cause his character has Parkinson's and, and he doesn't, you know, he's like, when you have Parkinson's, you don't know what it's gonna be like day to day. And, and he's really invested in the surprise. So he loves a surprise. So, and, and if he doesn't have to learn lines, all the better.

• 37:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:15Speaker 01

  So here's a scene where he doesn't have to learn any lines and he can just react.

• 37:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:20Speaker 01

  And of course, his reaction is incredible to it in the back. And he does every, they sent me the dailies the day after, um, which was the only time they've ever done this. They sent me the dailies, uh, and it was just a lot, one, one shot, one, one, one, one, one take. And it was a locked off shot of the three of us. And I was like, oh, I can't wait to see my work, to see my Javert and to see how Jason and I play off of each other. And I just watched Harrison in the backseat reacting.

• 37:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:51Speaker 01

  Cause it was just so real. He was confused, he was annoyed, he was touched, he was delighted. He was scared. He does everything in that, in that, uh, in, in that backseat. And, uh, and I was like, oh yeah, that's right, that's what he does. He's movie star.

• 38:11Speaker 00

  I mean, it's, all of you smashed it, it's incredible.

• 38:14Speaker 01

  Thank you. It was a real special day. It was one of those days that like, everyone was like.

• 38:19Speaker 00

  You, you knew at the time that that was good.

• 38:21Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. We all knew like, oh, this is a cool day.

• 38:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 38:24Speaker 01

  Because we were driving around Pasadena on a trailer, you know, we're not really driving. It's like, pretend, uh, on the back of a trailer. And, and it was a beautiful day and people were like, ah, you know, like they see us drive by and they're like, oh my God, oh my God. And, um, the crew was happy and, you know, it was, it's fun. It's fun when you do a big scene like that. And there's a big truck and like, lock off streets and there's police and everything like that.

• 38:55Speaker 00

  What do they call it when they do this thing on the, when they put the car on the, what is that called?

• 38:58Speaker 01

  Okay, it's called a process trailer.

• 39:00Speaker 00

  Right.

• 39:01Speaker 01

  But I don't know why. And actually, there was another time I was in a scene with Harrison and Jason and, in a car. And, and they were calling it a process trailer. And I was like, and, and, and the other fun thing about being in a car with Harrison and Jason is like, we're trapped there between takes. Like, we don't wander off to our trailers or whatever. We, and so that's when we can really be like, so Harrison, tell us about, you know, we can really like asking questions. And this other day when we were shooting on a process trailer, I was like, so you guys are movie stars? Why do they call it a process trailer? And they didn't know. I don't know, that's a good question. I don't know why it's called that. And he was like, oh, but you gotta see this. And he pulled out his phone and he was like, we had this great motorcycle chase in the last Indy.

• 39:46Speaker 01

  And there was a process trailer. And he pulled out his phone and he was like, how do I find pictures? Hey, help me with, and Jason's like, oh, it's that, but, yeah, yeah, right, right, right. And then he's like, where's, damn it, what, look at this fish I caught.

• 40:02Speaker 01

  And he never found him. He never found the pictures of the process trailer. But it was really sweet, like, he's, he, that was another time where you got a little bit in there.

• 40:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:12Speaker 01

  About a movie, one of those.

• 40:20Speaker 06

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• 41:42Speaker 00

  We've got a question from my mom.

• 41:44Speaker 01

  Oh, good.

• 41:45Speaker 00

  I don't know what the question is, so I would like to distance myself from whatever this might be, unless it's good, in which case I'm taking credit. Let's have a listen.

• 41:53Speaker 02

  Hi, Michael. I'm Romesh's mom, Shanti. How are you?

• 41:58Speaker 01

  Good, thank you.

• 41:59Speaker 02

  You are very funny and talented actor. I'm very proud of you. I hear you are just performing in Western. All the theater you have done, what are you proud of? Can you please share it with me? And Romesh, enjoy the podcast.

• 42:20Speaker 01

  Oh, that's.

• 42:20Speaker 02

  Look forward to meeting you one day. Enjoy the weather. Love you. Bye-bye.

• 42:26Speaker 01

  Oh, love you. That was very sweet.

• 42:28Speaker 00

  You don't have to meet her, don't worry, that's not a thing. So don't start panicking about that.

• 42:33Speaker 01

  I was hoping she'd walk in.

• 42:37Speaker 00

  But yeah, what is your favorite bit of?

• 42:39Speaker 01

  That's a great question.

• 42:41Speaker 00

  Well, the thing that you're most proud of, I guess, that's what she was asking.

• 42:47Speaker 01

  We'd, well, it's, that's, there's a couple that come to mind.

• 42:51Speaker 01

  Well, I'm very proud of Oh, Mary and I'm very proud to be part of it. It was something that came to New York and took off Broadway by storm.

• 43:02Speaker 00

  It just blew up, right?

• 43:03Speaker 01

  Blew up.

• 43:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:05Speaker 01

  And it's, and I have been a fan of Cola Scola for a long time. And the moment I saw the first piece of art for the show, I was like, what is this madness? And I was so excited and then it was a huge hit off Broadway, couldn't get a ticket. And then they moved to Broadway and I was like, oh gosh, I hope it, I hope it does well on Broadway because Broadway's a really tough, it's a really tough place to succeed. And it has, it has gone better than anyone expected. I mean, I'm sure some people saw it coming, that those producers ended up being very clever and it, and the play is just amazing. And then it came here and it works here.

• 43:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:50Speaker 01

  And it's a hit here. So I, and I never thought I would, I didn't think that I'd ever get to be in it because I didn't think, I'm not quite what they want for a Mary.

• 44:03Speaker 01

  I'm not really right for Mary's husband. And when they came and asked me, I'd literally, my partner and I had just been talking about how much we loved it like the night before and like, wouldn't it be fun to be, maybe I could be Mary's husband someday, maybe, maybe, maybe I could be Mary someday. That would be fun. And then they were like, we want you to play Mary's teacher. And I was like, Mary's teacher? Mary's teacher? Cause like, this is a role that I thought I would be too, what, da, da, da, da, for it. And I never even, I never even thought of it.

• 44:29Speaker 00

  That wasn't on the list of possible?

• 44:31Speaker 01

  No, no, I just never even thought that. And it's such, and I can't say much because it's like, there's a lot of great twists.

• 44:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:38Speaker 01

  So I don't want to say like really what he does or what it is, but it's everything I've, it's, it's like, it's, it's a role that has all the things that I love the most in it. And so I was honored to get asked and even more honored to get asked to come here and be part of the capture. We're filming it next week. So I'm really proud, I'm sort of, that's sort of more, I'm proud of like myself for like that happening and grateful and.

• 45:09Speaker 00

  But it is, I mean, Oh, Mary is, I went to watch it a few months ago and it's, it's so, so funny. I, I don't, I, I actually genuinely can't think of many times I've been in a theater where the, the laughter explodes like at so many points during that performance.

• 45:35Speaker 01

  There are things that people scream.

• 45:36Speaker 00

  Yeah. And, and, and like people like, like they're watching, I don't know, like people are doubled over, they, and they're, they're sort of shocked, but it's not shocking. It's shocking in a good, you know, it's not like, it's just like, there's so many cool left turns in it and surprises. It's, it was such a good time.

• 45:57Speaker 01

  Breakneck pace. It moves at such a fast pace.

• 46:00Speaker 00

  You can't, you can't believe how quickly. And when it's, when it's done, you're like, you can't quite believe it's done, you know? Like it was, it's, it's like a roller coaster.

• 46:07Speaker 01

  And I, I went, I watched it before we started here with the, with the cat, the British cast before, before we took over. And I hadn't watched it in over a year. And, oh, it was just so wonderful to be reminded of. And, and I was sitting in the back, so I got to watch people too. Just how shocking it is and how surprising and how many laughs there are and how it never, you know, like there's some plays, I've been in lots of plays that are funny. And when they, when the audience starts laughing, you wait. But we don't wait.

• 46:40Speaker 00

  No.

• 46:41Speaker 01

  We just blow right through. We wait a couple of times just to make sure you hear something, but like for the most part, the sound design is good enough that like you'll hear it.

• 46:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:49Speaker 01

  And so we just keep going and the audiences are like, well, okay. And catch up. And, and then the scene, the between scenes, it goes to pitch black and, and you're just like, what is happening? What is going on? And then another scene starts right away and there's no time. Sam Pinkleton, who directed it is brilliant.

• 47:11Speaker 00

  Did you notice a difference in, because obviously it's American history.

• 47:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 47:15Speaker 00

  And you'll, so it was, it was in, on Broadway, off Broadway, then on Broadway. Seeing it in London and the West End.

• 47:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:22Speaker 00

  Did you notice a difference in the way that audiences were responding to it?

• 47:25Speaker 01

  So, no, actually. I thought I would.

• 47:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:30Speaker 01

  But maybe a little bit, but, but, but no, I, I, I thought there would be more of a difference. Maybe y'all are just really up to American history, up to speed with American history. There's also a pre-show announcement here that we don't have in America that gives you just three little important points in a very cute, funny way that, that are kind of all you really need to know.

• 48:00Speaker 01

  Who Abraham Lincoln was, he was president during the Civil War, he was assassinated by John Wilkes Booth shortly after winning the Civil War, and he had a wife named Mary. And that's really all you need to know.

• 48:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:14Speaker 01

  That's what happened to that guy and this is who he was married to and here she is.

• 48:20Speaker 01

  Here's our version of her, which is like, you know, completely fabricated, but it, it, I was prepared for the reaction to be different or less at times.

• 48:33Speaker 00

  Well, I wondered, I wondered when, when it first started, how it was going to go over, you know, because you sort of think.

• 48:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:41Speaker 00

  I, I've, you know, you've heard that it's a phenomenon in America, but obviously they're going to have a different relationship. Is it going to work here?

• 48:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 48:48Speaker 00

  But obviously it's absolutely smashed.

• 48:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. I saw, I saw another play here that is a very different kind of play, but has some things in common. It's 1536. Have you heard about this play?

• 48:58Speaker 00

  I've heard about it, I've not seen it.

• 48:59Speaker 01

  It is incredible.

• 49:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:01Speaker 01

  Totally thrilling. And it is about a piece of British history. And, and I, and when I told, when I told some people I was going, they were like, well, do you know the story? And, and.

• 49:13Speaker 00

  Very condescending, that.

• 49:16Speaker 00

  Well, okay, well, cool, you're going, but maybe do a bit of background reading.

• 49:21Speaker 01

  Read a book.

• 49:24Speaker 01

  And it's a, so like, but what, the thing is, Oh Mary is not really about American history. It's just like, sort of put there and.

• 49:33Speaker 00

  It's just the backdrop essentially, right?

• 49:34Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly. And fifteen thirty six is the same. It's, it's not really about Henry the Eighth and Anne Boleyn. It's just during that time. And, and, and I knew that Henry the Eighth had six wives and I knew that Anne Boleyn was one of them. And that's really all I needed to know. I don't think I missed anything. Um, and it also moves at a breakneck pace and there's no time to think and there's no time to. And obviously it's not, or not obviously, it is not a comedy per se, although it is at times very funny. But I remember thinking, oh, this is kind of like, there's some, there's, there are similarities to these two plays.

• 50:15Speaker 01

  One's about, one, one has a backdrop of American history, one has a backdrop of British history, but um, you don't really need that. And I think fifteen thirty six should go to Broadway, should come to New York because it's, it is really about so much more than, than just this like slice of history.

• 50:32Speaker 00

  You, obviously theatre is incredibly important to you.

• 50:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:37Speaker 00

  What is your relationship with it and why does it continue to be such a big thing for you?

• 50:41Speaker 01

  I think there's something, it's interesting, um, right? We were talking, maybe before we started about, about doing it night to night. And about, um, especially if you've never done theatre, how that is a weird, it's weird. You know, like in TV and film, you do it until it's perfect and then you're like, great, we got it, let's move on. And in the theatre, it's, uh, every night you, you go back and do it again. And, and, and especially with the comedy, when you're rehearsing it, it can get really frustrating because it stops being funny to everyone in the room. And, um, and, and you're like, well, I don't, I don't want to do this anymore and, and, and what's going to happen?

• 51:22Speaker 01

  And then there's, for me, there's always a point in the process as we get closer to an audience coming, that I get this very like, warm and emotional feeling about when the audience is gonna come in and they're not gonna know what we're gonna do. And it's so, it's sort of cheesy and silly, but like, like, they're gonna come in here and they have no idea what we're gonna do. We've been in a room together for a month planning it. And then we're gonna go and we're gonna make sure it's all perfect and then we're gonna do it for them and they have no idea what we're gonna do. Even if they know the play, even if they've seen it before, tonight's different. Like, they really don't know what's gonna happen.

• 52:06Speaker 01

  And I think that that is the thing that makes me always want to go, it's that secret sauce. It's the relationship between the hundreds of people who come in for the first time and those of us who have prepared it. We're gonna give them something that, that, that they have not experienced, even if they've been before. It's not, it's not quite the same. And I'm sure you feel this way with stand-up too. Well, if you have the, if you have a show that's, you know, set that you do the same jokes, it's not quite the same from show to show.

• 52:41Speaker 00

  No, and, and also sometimes like, you know, one of the things that people say to me is, because I laugh a lot after I've, you know, I don't laugh. People go, how come you're laughing during the show? But actually what happens is I know what I'm about to say. And then sometimes I'm laughing at the, of their reaction, because sometimes you might say something quite shocking. And then you hear the laugh and I sort of get the giggles about the fact that I've just said that thing to, do you know what I mean?

• 53:08Speaker 01

  I love that. That's exactly it.

• 53:10Speaker 00

  Yeah. So you're sort of enjoying their reaction. And I do feel like when, you know, with stand-up, you don't say exactly the same thing every night, but you can see into the fu, you are basically, you can see into the future. It's like what you're saying. I know that we're building up, there's an excitement going, I'm building up to a big, a big punch here. Or this routine is gonna build and build and build and then I'm gonna drop the, you know, like all of that is really exciting.

• 53:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:36Speaker 00

  And so it's an audience that, that, that makes that happen. And also I think like, I, I, I think when you go and watch theatre and, and often people really enjoy drama and comedy on TV and wouldn't ever think about going to the theatre. The difference in that experience is you are watching it, the fact that you're in an audience adds so much to that experience, I think. Is, is that kind of thing of being in a room with everybody that's experiencing that thing for the first time is pretty exciting. Do you know what I mean?

• 54:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:09Speaker 00

  And I don't know how you feel about this, but like, one of the things that I grew up not thinking theatre was for me, like, you know, I, I just sort of never thought, my parents didn't go to the theatre. It was like, it was like a, it's like a posh thing, basically, do you know what I mean?

• 54:22Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 54:22Speaker 00

  And then it was only when my wife started taking me to theatre, she was a drama teacher, she started taking me to theatre. I was like, holy shit, this is a great night out, right? Is that, in, in America, are, is it as, is it as exclusive as it, you know, it feels pretty exclusive, you know?

• 54:36Speaker 01

  I think it's more exclusive in America, frankly. I feel like there are more walks of life that come to the theatre here than there. I think it's more of a, I don't know, I, I feel like it's, it's a more, um, more, more part of upbringing here. You're up, one's upbringing. I don't know. I mean, I, I obviously I don't know, I'm not, I don't.

• 54:58Speaker 00

  I mean, the ticket prices obviously make it, they force an exclusivity onto it, right? Regardless of whether you want to go or not.

• 55:04Speaker 01

  Yes, for sure. Cause you can go, you can just stay at home and watch TV for free.

• 55:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:08Speaker 01

  Or go to the movies and see something for, much cheaper.

• 55:11Speaker 00

  I, I guess like, you know, if you're going to watch a film, if you, if you, if you don't enjoy it, you're like, I've lost eighteen quid or something.

• 55:19Speaker 01

  Right.

• 55:20Speaker 00

  Whereas if you go to the theatre and you don't enjoy it. That's a real, that's a real kick in the dick.

• 55:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 55:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that'll turn you off forever.

• 55:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:29Speaker 01

  Potentially.

• 55:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm not gonna roll the dice on this again, right?

• 55:32Speaker 01

  That's, that's, that's a thing. And in, and in America, it's, it's a major thing. And in America, it's not, it, it, I don't think we, we, we teach our children about the theatre enough for them to love it.

• 55:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:50Speaker 01

  And, and I think that there's a lot of theatre that doesn't, uh, that, that reflects a particular demographic back to, to, to its audience.

• 56:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:02Speaker 01

  And so those people like it more because it's about them, you know?

• 56:08Speaker 01

  Which is, which is a bummer. And, and it's always exciting when something can break through and appeal to everyone. Like Oh Mary, I mean, like, you know, like, I, I defy anyone to not enjoy that play.

• 56:24Speaker 00

  Well, I did, I did, you know, when I went to watch Oh Mary, I, one of the things I thought was amazing about is you sort of, you are sat amongst people. I mean, as we were leaving, there were some people in there and I thought, I can't believe you've just watched what I've watched. Do you know what I mean? In terms of what I've just seen? I can't believe that somebody that looks like you has just watched that and looked like you loved it. Do you, do you know what I mean?

• 56:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:47Speaker 00

  It's mad.

• 56:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:49Speaker 00

  And it's like, in a good way, in a really good way, you just go, holy shit, man. I would have thought you'd have hated this.

• 56:55Speaker 01

  But we had fun, huh? How about that?

• 56:57Speaker 00

  It was a great time, wasn't it? Now, with that in mind, with, you know, you're talking about reflecting back, you are obviously a, a real advocate for queer theatre.

• 57:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:05Speaker 00

  And you founded Pride Plays.

• 57:07Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 57:08Speaker 00

  Can you, what's that all about?

• 57:10Speaker 01

  So, yeah, so, uh, to, to that, you know, that end, what we, what we've been discussing about access and, um, and what stories get told.

• 57:22Speaker 01

  I and my co-founders of this, um, festival, Pride Plays Festival. Obviously there's no lack of queer people in the theatre, like it's a, it's a haven for, for queer people to, to, to find. But so often, um, there'll be a stack of plays on the desk of, you know, someone at a theatre company and they'll put plays in the queer pile that like, don't necessarily belong together.

• 57:54Speaker 01

  We contain multitudes, there's lots of, lots of stories about queer people. And to put, you know, like a tragic story of.

• 58:05Speaker 01

  You know, people suffering from AIDS in the eighties with like, Oh, Mary is not fair. You know, that's like, they're so very different. And, and, and, and so a theater might not program both of them simply because, and like, that's

• 58:19Speaker 00

  But it's not a genre, is it? Do you know what I mean?

• 58:22Speaker 01

  Right.

• 58:22Speaker 00

  It's, yeah. I know, I know exactly what you mean.

• 58:25Speaker 01

  Exactly. And, and that's their prerogative. If they, if they, if they don't want to program Angels in America because they programmed Oh, Mary. All right, that's fine. You don't have to do that. Those two plays have nothing to do with each other. It couldn't be any further.

• 58:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:40Speaker 01

  But, okay. And, and we thought, and, and New York doesn't have, there's a lot of cities that have queer theaters. Theaters that are devoted to doing queer work with queer artists. And New York doesn't. There's a few that, you know, do more. But we thought, where, what if there's a place where we can give queer actors, queer writers, and queer directors like an entry or mid-level opportunity so that it doesn't have to be like, get all the way up to the top or bust? And, and we started, when we, the first time we did the festival, we did it for the 50th anniversary of the Stonewall uprising, and it was also world pride in New York.

• 59:24Speaker 01

  And we thought, okay, let's do four stage readings of plays. We'll do some new plays. We'll do some great works, maybe stuff that people haven't seen in a while. And, and we'll make sure that we include the entire community, all the letters, all the colors of the rainbow, all that stuff. And we were like, okay, four is not enough. And we ended up doing 19. And it was amazing. It was really, really thrilling. And, and, and every year, the festival's taken on a different, kind of a different look. And, and right now, we're in a period where we're, we're in a transitional period where we're trying to figure out what the next, we're trying to make, we're trying to take a big step and not little steps and, and really expand our tent, which is, we always

• 1:00:08Speaker 01

  say, how big can the tent be? And, and it, it, it seems to mean a lot to people that are interested in doing queer work and, and finding it hard to break into the business. Because this is tough. Show business is really tough. And there's a huge, there's like, you can get really, really rich, really, really fast if you hit the right, if you hit the right jackpot. Or you can struggle and do amazing, incredible, great work for audiences of 60 in basements. And we just want to like, level that up a little bit.

• 1:00:45Speaker 00

  No, look, it's an incredible thing to do.

• 1:00:47Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:00:47Speaker 00

  So, so well done for doing it.

• 1:00:48Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:00:49Speaker 00

  We're gonna play a little game now.

• 1:00:50Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:00:51Speaker 00

  It's called Misquoted.

• 1:00:57Speaker 00

  It's Misquoted. I'm gonna give you five quotes. Some of them you said, some of them you didn't. And I just want you to tell me whether you think you said them or not. Now, in order to, well, sort of a hint, some of them we've adapted to something you've said.

• 1:01:11Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:01:12Speaker 00

  Okay, so it could be close to something.

• 1:01:13Speaker 01

  Paraphrase.

• 1:01:14Speaker 00

  So, yeah, so don't let that

• 1:01:15Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:01:16Speaker 00

  mislead you. I'd hate for you to not enjoy this game. Because we, we haven't given you the full details.

• 1:01:21Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:01:21Speaker 00

  Uh, okay. So, good luck to you.

• 1:01:23Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:01:24Speaker 00

  There is literally nothing at stake.

• 1:01:26Speaker 01

  Great. I mean, I already have a prize.

• 1:01:28Speaker 00

  Exactly. You've won, you've won. We'd like, we'd like to think, the absence of jeopardy makes it more interesting.

• 1:01:36Speaker 00

  So here you go. Here's your first one. Did you or did you not say this? I've played enough fabulous gay guys to last a lifetime.

• 1:01:47Speaker 01

  I think I, that sounds like something I said.

• 1:01:52Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:01:52Speaker 00

  You didn't say that.

• 1:01:53Speaker 01

  I didn't say that.

• 1:01:53Speaker 00

  No. It's, it's, well, is it close to, it's sort of similar. I've played a lot of mean gay guys. And now I'm playing a nice one on Shrinking, is what you actually said.

• 1:02:05Speaker 01

  Okay, that's fair.

• 1:02:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:02:08Speaker 01

  The, to last a lifetime is, is what gave me a little bit of pause because

• 1:02:13Speaker 00

  Because you're not done.

• 1:02:13Speaker 01

  I'm not done. I'm not done playing fabulous gay guys.

• 1:02:21Speaker 00

  Okay, here's your next one. So that one you got wrong.

• 1:02:23Speaker 01

  Okay, fine, fair, fair.

• 1:02:25Speaker 00

  But there's no stakes. There's nothing at stake. That's literally, that's literally as high as a jeopardy gets. There's me going, you've got that one wrong.

• 1:02:30Speaker 01

  Great.

• 1:02:30Speaker 00

  And if you can take that, I think you're fine.

• 1:02:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:32Speaker 00

  Uh, here's your next one. He's not mugging like I do, he's just behaving, and that's why he's a movie star.

• 1:02:38Speaker 01

  Oh, that's, I said that, yeah. That's something I said.

• 1:02:42Speaker 00

  You were talking about Harrison Ford.

• 1:02:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:02:44Speaker 00

  He's not mugging like I do. You don't mug, do you?

• 1:02:48Speaker 01

  Oh, I mug.

• 1:02:49Speaker 00

  You think you mug?

• 1:02:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I certainly, I have much sharper edges than Harrison. Harrison's much more organic.

• 1:02:59Speaker 00

  Right, right, right, right.

• 1:03:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:02Speaker 00

  Do you, how much do you, theater and TV, obviously such different acting skill sets, right?

• 1:03:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:08Speaker 00

  How much are you still thinking about the craft of what you do? Or do, like, are you trying to push it all the time?

• 1:03:13Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:03:13Speaker 00

  Really?

• 1:03:14Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, especially when I'm working with someone who's 84 and doing that.

• 1:03:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:19Speaker 01

  And like, always trying to get better.

• 1:03:21Speaker 00

  Right, right, right.

• 1:03:21Speaker 01

  You know, like, he takes it, every scene, so seriously.

• 1:03:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:27Speaker 01

  And, and, you, you know, you don't, you don't give anything less than a hundred when you see a guy like that.

• 1:03:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:35Speaker 01

  Who's 84 and richer than, you know.

• 1:03:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, I mean, I, I wouldn't give a shit. You know, if, if I was that, if I had that much money, had that career behind me, I'd fucking fain it in every day.

• 1:03:51Speaker 00

  And they go, what are you gonna do, is rubbish? Yeah, he was shitting that scene.

• 1:03:56Speaker 01

  But he's rich.

• 1:03:57Speaker 00

  Okay, here's your next one. I swear on the abs of Mark Wahlberg.

• 1:04:04Speaker 01

  Is this like something I said, or maybe I said in something? Could it, I couldn't, that sounds like something I maybe said on Ugly Betty.

• 1:04:11Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 1:04:11Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:04:13Speaker 00

  That was a tricky one. You nailed it.

• 1:04:15Speaker 01

  That sounds like something Mark St James would say.

• 1:04:17Speaker 00

  That is, that is from Ugly Betty. Uh, do you, do you ever, I mean, Ugly Betty was an incredible thing for you, right?

• 1:04:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, my God, huge break.

• 1:04:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:25Speaker 01

  Huge, amazing break.

• 1:04:27Speaker 00

  Did it feel like an amazing, huge break at the time?

• 1:04:29Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And that's because, well, because I had no money and then suddenly had a real job. And, and, and it was so fat. Like, that was in the days where we had pilot season and you would audition for the pilot, get the pilot, make the pilot in like, a month or two months. And then if it was picked up, it would be on TV in like, three more months. So like, you, I went from having three roommates in a tiny apartment in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, to being in magazines in LA within four months.

• 1:05:02Speaker 00

  That is wild.

• 1:05:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's crazy.

• 1:05:04Speaker 00

  What does that do, is that difficult to do with mentally? Because that feels like a lot.

• 1:05:07Speaker 01

  It was so fun. It was like, so exciting and so fun. And everyone was so cool that, no, not really. And that show in particular, I'm sure that it's hard for some. I mean, I'm sure that like, when, you know, I was also not supposed to be, you know, I was supposed to be in, in the pilot only. And so everything, everything that was coming was like, extra. I had no expectations. I was not supposed to be, but Vanessa Williams, whose assistant I was, loved me and took me kind of under her wing. And, and they were like, let's keep him. We like him, let's keep him, we like them together. And so I got to stay. And, and so everything was like, a bonus. Everything was, was, was cake.

• 1:05:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:52Speaker 01

  And, and on that show, there, we weren't, there were none of us, and Shrinking's like this too. I think this is really like, it's, you know, like, we all, we're all fragile, we all have egos, and we're all worried about like, being replaced or fired or, or eclipsed or whatever. And on both of these two TV shows that I've gotten to do, I'm the only one like me.

• 1:06:20Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 1:06:21Speaker 01

  And so I'm not like, looking around thinking, hey, how did they get that part? Or why don't I get a joke like that? Or why don't I get to wear clothes like that? Or I wonder what they're, you know, there's nothing like that. We're all different ages, we're all different types, different backgrounds. And, and on Ugly Betty, that was particularly, because there was several that were young, all different. And then there were some older actors, like Vanessa, Judith Light, Tony Plana, who played Betty's dad, Alan Dale, who played Daniel Mead's dad. And these four actors particularly, and then Rebecca Romaine came on, who was a little bit older than us, they were very clear to us, the younger people, that we had something special.

• 1:07:06Speaker 00

  That's amazing.

• 1:07:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. And they were like, this is good. This is really, really, this, it's not always like this. And it's not always nice, it's not always a good group, it's not always good material, and it's not always like, about something that you can be proud of. And then also, successful. So, they were, I, there was never a moment where we didn't, when all of us on that show were keenly aware that we were a part of something really special.

• 1:07:35Speaker 00

  Vanessa Williams is in London right now.

• 1:07:36Speaker 01

  In the Devil Wears Prada.

• 1:07:37Speaker 00

  Yeah. And have you two, have you met up?

• 1:07:39Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. I, I saw her, I was here a few months ago and I saw her. She's coming to see me on Tuesday. So, yeah, yeah.

• 1:07:45Speaker 00

  God, that's cool.

• 1:07:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:47Speaker 00

  Okay, here's your last one. You've done really well.

• 1:07:49Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:07:50Speaker 00

  It's like riding a bike, but it's a different bike. It's like, how does this bike work?

• 1:07:54Speaker 01

  That's, I said that about Oh, Mary.

• 1:07:55Speaker 00

  You did?

• 1:07:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I said that about doing Oh, Mary with Colascola instead of Jinx Monsoon.

• 1:08:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:02Speaker 01

  Because they're both playing Mary, but they are so different and so brilliant. And that's what's so great about, I mean, you know, like, Oh, Mary is, it's like, it's, it's, it's like Hamlet. Like, like, these characters could be any kind of, they could have any kind of interpretation. They could have a Jinx Monsoon, or they could have a Colascola, or they could have a Catherine Tate.

• 1:08:27Speaker 01

  Maya Rudolph just did it in New York. Like, there's so many different kinds of people that could play the role.

• 1:08:32Speaker 00

  And then, and does that then, I guess that changes what you're doing in response, right?

• 1:08:37Speaker 01

  A little bit, yeah, a little bit.

• 1:08:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:40Speaker 01

  For sure. And, I mean, I've, my part, without giving anything away, is, is, there's a, it's kind of reactionary. So I'm, I, which is great. I get to sort of like, take in whatever's coming at me. But, but the tricky thing is like, pace is different, or size is different, or, or speed, you know, speed and, and, and volume and stuff, that's, that's the calibration.

• 1:09:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:09:02Speaker 01

  But it's great. It's really fun to, to do with different Marys.

• 1:09:06Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, look, you did very well. Congratulations, Mark, you're on, on Misquoted. I thought it was fantastic.

• 1:09:12Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:09:13Speaker 00

  Now, we're, we're sort of done, but we like to end the podcast on like, a, a big moment in a desperate attempt to try and, you know, obviously there's loads of podcasts out there.

• 1:09:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:22Speaker 00

  Everybody's just trying to do whatever they can to get the currency of attention. It's just like a fucking cesspit out there.

• 1:09:30Speaker 00

  So we would love, like a little, it's a little closer. Uh, we asked for an exclusive or something like that, but we'd love to ask you the best advice you've ever been given, just to close us out.

• 1:09:43Speaker 01

  The best advice I was given, I would say this is the, the, the, the clearest advice. I've, I've been given this advice in a few different ways, but it was Michael Patrick King, who is an amazing TV creator and film director. He, he was a part, he directed a lot of the Sex and the City, he was the Sex and the City guy, and he created the comeback with Lisa Kudrow. And, uh, he and I have had two, unfortunately, um, failed attempts to work together, two projects that, uh, were very cool and very exciting that didn't get made. But I gotten, I got to know him, um, two different times in my career.

• 1:10:22Speaker 01

  And he has this great advice that's best for, um, people who are trying to break into show business. And it's, it's follow the green lights is the way he puts it. And when I was first starting out, I kind of did this organically and, and I felt crazy about it. I just like did anything. I said yes to anything and I went anywhere and, um, would do any, I would do, play in a basement, I would do, um, you know, reading at your kitchen table, whatever, I'll do anything. And, and then when he said follow the green lights, when he was, when I was, I, I, I had something that I was like, I'm not sure if I should do this or that. And he was like, follow the green lights.

• 1:11:04Speaker 01

  Don't hold out for something that may or may not happen when somebody wants you. Because sometimes this is like such a subjective business that, um, sometimes somebody has to tell you what they want from you, what you're good at. Like I had dreams, you know, I, there's things I wanted to do and I said, I want to be this. I wanted to be that. This is the kind of thing I want, the kind of work I want to do. And that wasn't happening, but other things were happening. They were like, no, we'd like you to come do this. I know you'd like to do that, but no, you'll come do this. And I was like, well, no, what about that? And, and it actually was the, the, the, going where the people actually wanted me was the right move.

• 1:11:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:11:47Speaker 01

  Not trying to fit myself into a mold that wasn't desired of me, but following the guesses, the green lights, not, not trying to push my way through a red light.

• 1:11:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, because, because weirdly you're, are the worst at identifying what the best things are you have to offer, right?

• 1:12:04Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:12:05Speaker 00

  And so you've got this perception of what it is you're gonna be or what you're gonna do. And somebody just goes, you're really, and then you can fall into traffic and go, well, no, I'm gonna hold out for this thing.

• 1:12:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:12:13Speaker 00

  And sometimes this thing's much better, or sometimes this thing can lead to that thing down the road, right?

• 1:12:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like, exactly. It might put you in a position where you can make the decision later.

• 1:12:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:12:22Speaker 01

  Um, but until then, go with what they want, because hey, they want.

• 1:12:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:12:27Speaker 01

  They want.

• 1:12:28Speaker 00

  And that, you can't take that for, they want is something you cannot take for granted.

• 1:12:32Speaker 01

  If they want.

• 1:12:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:12:33Speaker 01

  Give.

• 1:12:37Speaker 00

  Absolutely fantastic to chat to you. We're such huge fans. Thank you for coming on.

• 1:12:40Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:12:41Speaker 00

  Michael, you everybody. Thank you so much for watching and listening to this episode. Before you go, if you've enjoyed this episode and you've not subscribed, that's a bold decision. Crazy behaviour. Follow and subscribe to the Romesh Wang and Ethan Show wherever you listen. It helps me really, like, really helps me. It helps the team and it costs you absolutely nothing. We drop episodes every Monday and Thursday. Mondays, I'm joined by great guests. Thursdays, my mum, Shadi, joins me to answer your questions and family dilemmas. I'll see you Thursday with mum, who, let's face it, is who you're actually here for. If you've got a problem you want to solve or a story you want to share, send it to [email protected], voice note or text us on 07731 623355.

• 1:13:25Speaker 00

  We can't promise good advice, but you might end up on the show. See you soon.

• 1:13:32Speaker 03

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