Stacey Dooley on 100+ Documentaries, Selling Sunset & Southampton

What makes Stacey Dooley such a good documentary maker? In this episode of The Romesh Ranganathan Show, Romesh is joined by broadcaster and documentary maker Stacey Dooley to reflect on her journey through documentary-making, how she approaches telling them and the stories and experiences that have stayed with her. They also get into some very important Selling Sunset and Below Deck gossip, before Stacey explains exactly why she hates Southampton. Plus, there's some questionable role play, a game of Misquoted and a brief detour into boxing, Little Mix and Jamie Oliver. A Ranga Bee Production. Chapters 00:00 Intro05:56 A gift for Stacey08:21 Why Stacey loves boxing12:39 Stacey hobbies14:36 Questionable role play17:06 What makes Stacey a good documentary maker25:37 Selling Sunset and Below Deck gossip28:16 Louis Theroux and the manosphere29:55 Stacey's new documentaries38:38 Are there really goodies and baddies?44:35 A question from Shanthi45:43 Why Stacey hates Southampton50:47 Lessons from inspiring women55:16 Who Stacey would love to interview1:07:27 Outro Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

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  The Vision returns for the final chapter of the groundbreaking trilogy.

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  Don't miss the two-episode premiere of Marvel Television's Vision Quest. Nothing bonds a family together quite like Mortal Jeopardy. Now streaming, only on Disney+.

• 1:00Speaker 04

  Have you seen the clips of this Barney? This, what's it called? It's basically a horror film. But it's like this, you know Barney the dinosaur? So it's like an orange dinosaur called Buddy. And basically eventually sort of gradually kills all the kids. It's fucking insane.

• 1:16Speaker 05

  Who's the target demag? Who's watching that?

• 1:19Speaker 04

  Some sick fucks. I mean, I honestly don't know. It's so wild. I couldn't, I was just thinking, I thought exactly that. Who is this for?

• 1:27Speaker 06

  Well, my like, the media brain goes, it's people who grew up with Barney, but who are now horror fans. So you've got like a bit of nostalgia. I guess you've got like a bit of like childhood nostalgia plus, it's like the perfect like mix of things for horror film, right? You've got childhood nostalgia plus...

• 1:45Speaker 05

  It's quite the hybrid that I'm...

• 1:46Speaker 06

  This big scary idea.

• 1:47Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:49Speaker 04

  So could we get like a Nightmare on Sesame Street?

• 1:51Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:52Speaker 04

  That'd be good, wouldn't it? Oscar the Crouch pops out of the bin and fucking smashes a shower. Or pulls, drags you down into the bin. And then you just hear some knocking noises and then eventually the kid stops talking.

• 2:04Speaker 05

  Great.

• 2:06Speaker 04

  I mean, Big Bird in a row.

• 2:08Speaker 05

  A lot.

• 2:09Speaker 04

  I reckon he could handle himself.

• 2:10Speaker 05

  Feathers everywhere, yeah. Chaos. I am Stacy Dooley and I'm very happy to say that I am on the Romesh Ranga Nathan Show.

• 2:28Speaker 04

  Oh, shut up, Romesh. Okay, shall we, I'm gonna do your intro now.

• 2:33Speaker 05

  Yes, okay.

• 2:34Speaker 04

  If you don't like it, I always say this, if you don't like, no, not tough. You can add stuff.

• 2:39Speaker 05

  No, you're in, yeah.

• 2:40Speaker 04

  Okay. My guest, good luck. Not good luck, good luck to me. My guest today is an internationally acclaimed...

• 2:47Speaker 05

  That is true.

• 2:48Speaker 04

  And Grierson Trustee's award-winning documentary maker and bestselling author. First, regular smoker. First appeared as a contributor on the BBC Three documentary Blood, Sweat & T-Shirts in 2008. And has gone on to make over 100 documentaries on subjects ranging from sexual abuse and human trafficking to suicide bombers and drug cartels. She's navigated intense and challenging situations across the globe, from war zones to the Strictly Ballroom with boldness and empathy. Her new series Clickbait Clinic is out now and she's got three powerful BBC Three documentaries investigating difficult issues in the UK, including ketamine addiction and military deaths, coming out later this year.

• 3:28Speaker 04

  It is the one, the only Stacy Dooley, everybody!

• 3:36Speaker 05

  That was great.

• 3:37Speaker 04

  Yeah?

• 3:38Speaker 05

  And you know what, it's always lovely to be called Stacy Dooley because often, this literally happens yesterday, they go Stacy Solomon, who we love, who we love, but I get that a hell of a lot.

• 3:50Speaker 04

  You know what I get a lot? Overexposed.

• 3:53Speaker 05

  I don't feel like that.

• 3:55Speaker 04

  I get that so much.

• 3:56Speaker 05

  But I am gobsmacked you're not presented strictly. I did just assume it would be you. And I thought what they'll do is they'll strip away the dancing. Because that's not important and it will just be the Romesh Show.

• 4:08Speaker 04

  Look, I pitched it.

• 4:09Speaker 05

  They didn't go for it.

• 4:10Speaker 04

  They said, they described, what were the words they came back with? Car crash.

• 4:15Speaker 05

  Absolutely not.

• 4:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 4:16Speaker 05

  But it is lovely to see you.

• 4:17Speaker 04

  It's lovely to see you, thanks for coming on. Like, you're a proper documentary maker.

• 4:21Speaker 05

  I'm a very highbrow, serious documentary.

• 4:23Speaker 04

  Over 100?

• 4:24Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's mad, huh? It is crazy.

• 4:26Speaker 04

  It is crazy.

• 4:27Speaker 05

  But don't forget, I started young. So I started as a contributor.

• 4:30Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 4:31Speaker 05

  And it was only ever meant to be a one-off. So they're like, oh yeah, well, you know, we'll take this girl, you know, this sort of Luton, you know, she works at Luton Airport and she's into shopping and she's into fast fashion and we'll sort of, you know, take her to India and show her the sweatshops. And then 20 years later, I'm still making documentaries. It's mad.

• 4:49Speaker 04

  It is mad. It's like you've had a journey, haven't you?

• 4:51Speaker 05

  Yeah, the J word. I truly have though. And that's the thing. No, but you're right, it's like painfully predictable. It's like I sort of turned up and now I know how telly works, they must have just been rubbing their hands in glee, Romesh, because it was like, I was just soundbite, soundbite, soundbite, just like this uneducated, curious, sort of fairly pleasant little girl from Luton who'd never left Europe.

• 5:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 5:15Speaker 05

  And then they take six of us and show us like how we're complicit, you know, fast consumerism, this insatiable appetite for like t-shirts for three quid. I'm like, this is unbelievable, have the most amazing time, like Discover India, like it was amazing, it really was, you know? And then you come back and I remember the guy who was in charge of the Beeb at the time saying, ringing me up before it aired, just sort of warning me, like, you might get hassled, people might not get you, you know?

• 5:45Speaker 04

  Why did they think that?

• 5:47Speaker 05

  Well, because we were sort of covering current affairs-based issues, but I'd left school at 15 and wasn't a journalist.

• 5:54Speaker 04

  So you're not coming at it from a point of view of an expert.

• 5:57Speaker 05

  Exactly right.

• 5:57Speaker 04

  And then, so they thought you might get some shit from us?

• 6:00Speaker 05

  Yes, which I did. And I think it was like, I really split the camp. Some people were like, why on earth has this girl been given a platform? Which is sort of fair enough. And then other people were like, oh, she's a breath of fresh air, you know, she's, her sort of relatability is useful for those who don't necessarily watch Newsnight religiously or listen to sort of Women's Hour. So I kind of found my feet, I sort of was navigating this space that hadn't really been that well trodden before. So, and listen, I'm still doing it, and by some miracle, they haven't sent me back to Luton Airport, so I'm still, yeah.

• 6:38Speaker 04

  Is that on the cards then? Will they do that?

• 6:40Speaker 05

  Well, you never know.

• 6:40Speaker 04

  What do they say? Do they say, at some point Stacy, we will have to send you back to Luton Airport?

• 6:44Speaker 05

  At some point, you are gonna be pushed out the fire exit door. But enjoy your time while you're here.

• 6:49Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 6:50Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 6:50Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'm waiting for the tap on the shoulder.

• 6:52Speaker 05

  Listen, you never know.

• 6:52Speaker 04

  Straight back to Gatwick.

• 6:54Speaker 05

  Of course, because you're Crawley! Are we rivals?

• 6:57Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think we might be.

• 6:58Speaker 05

  No, fine, okay.

• 6:59Speaker 04

  Airport on Airport B.

• 7:00Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's it, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 7:01Speaker 04

  And is it true you're into boxing?

• 7:02Speaker 05

  I love boxing.

• 7:03Speaker 04

  Great. Because we've got a gift for you.

• 7:07Speaker 05

  Okay. Thank you ever so much, Romesh.

• 7:09Speaker 04

  This is to help you train?

• 7:10Speaker 05

  No, fine. I'll just put my tea between my legs. Did you watch Garcia and Ben? Are you into boxing?

• 7:17Speaker 04

  No, I didn't. I'm a casual, but I know, I saw the highlights of the fight.

• 7:20Speaker 05

  Did you watch Moses?

• 7:21Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 7:22Speaker 05

  We love Moses, he just couldn't take his chin off.

• 7:25Speaker 04

  Yeah, it was, well, I've never seen...

• 7:27Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 7:28Speaker 04

  I've never seen, at the end of the fight, I've never seen anything like that. It looked like somebody was controlling him for like a consul, like he was so battered, wasn't he?

• 7:40Speaker 05

  Correct.

• 7:41Speaker 04

  But he'll still have a great career, won't he?

• 7:43Speaker 05

  Can I, it's really unexpected that I love boxing, but I absolutely love it with my whole heart. Like if it's silly o'clock over in Vegas or, you know, it's across the park, I'll like get up, set the alarm for like 10 to 3. Get a cup of tea and a pop tart and I'm like, this is great.

• 7:56Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 7:57Speaker 05

  Anyway, thanks for the gift.

• 7:58Speaker 04

  No worries. Well, wait till you see it first.

• 8:04Speaker 04

  They've just thrown it on the floor, kidding.

• 8:07Speaker 05

  Oh, what is this? What is it?

• 8:09Speaker 04

  So it's a folk, it's basically, it's a headband with a ball and a string attached. I'm really simplifying it. And then you...

• 8:16Speaker 05

  So I can train?

• 8:17Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 8:18Speaker 05

  But that is so thoughtful, thank you ever so much.

• 8:20Speaker 04

  No problem.

• 8:21Speaker 05

  Shall I try it now or?

• 8:22Speaker 04

  You can if you want, I mean, I don't know how long it'll take to set up.

• 8:25Speaker 05

  Oh, you've got questions to ask, haven't you? Yeah, it's just, it's just a ball and a string. I don't as much set up, record. I absolutely love it. Let me just, a quick go.

• 8:33Speaker 04

  Well, I mean, I said I don't know, in my defence.

• 8:36Speaker 05

  Look, let's just have a quick go. Oh, we've done it. There we go.

• 8:42Speaker 05

  Eddie Hand's gonna be on the phone.

• 8:43Speaker 04

  Sorry, can we just, I would like, can we play a little bit of, a little bit, a little of a jingle? I'd like a jingle into this and make it a new feature. Ben's being...

• 8:54Speaker 04

  It was so, it was such an unnecessary roast that. I just said I don't know how long.

• 9:03Speaker 05

  So this is low and slow?

• 9:04Speaker 04

  Low and slow, I'm really impressed.

• 9:06Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 9:07Speaker 04

  Low and slow apparently, and it's difficult.

• 9:10Speaker 05

  All right, well, Katie Taylor's just retired.

• 9:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, so there you go, that's why we thought we'd get you this.

• 9:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, that is good. And totally expected, to be honest with you.

• 9:26Speaker 05

  Outstanding.

• 9:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, outstanding. So enjoy that.

• 9:29Speaker 05

  That is so thoughtful. Thank you. I made up with that.

• 9:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, good. I'm glad you liked it.

• 9:32Speaker 06

  How did you get into boxing?

• 9:35Speaker 05

  How did I get into loving boxing? That's a good question.

• 9:38Speaker 04

  Been to Wetherspoons a lot?

• 9:39Speaker 05

  I've been to Wetherspoons.

• 9:42Speaker 05

  You ever heard of Luton Andre? I don't know. I've just followed it for years. And do you know what it is for me? I love like the showmanship of it all. I love like the trash talk prior to the fight and then them kicking off and someone throwing a can. And then the dad getting involved and, you know, all of that, I just love.

• 10:01Speaker 04

  You know, my favourite thing is when the trash talk sort of goes wrong. When they try and sound threatening and it actually becomes quite homoerotic.

• 10:06Speaker 05

  Yes, they're like, why do you want to kiss me?

• 10:08Speaker 04

  I'm gonna be all over you.

• 10:10Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 10:10Speaker 04

  I'm gonna be all over you like a lover that won't ever let go. My tongue's gonna be all up in and around you. And you go, okay dude, what's going on?

• 10:17Speaker 05

  Wow, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I know. I can't remember if it's Dylan. There was someone who said something and the other lad went, nah, bro.

• 10:24Speaker 04

  He said, I think it's something like, I'm gonna go through you.

• 10:26Speaker 05

  Yeah, something, yes.

• 10:28Speaker 04

  I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go through you like diarrhea or it was something like that.

• 10:34Speaker 05

  Yeah. And then he goes, what? And he goes, you know what I mean.

• 10:38Speaker 04

  Yeah, I know what you mean. It sounds disgusting.

• 10:42Speaker 05

  And I saw Caroline Dubois, I know this isn't a boxing podcast, um, obviously Dubois's sister. And she is such a slay. They look identical.

• 10:51Speaker 04

  Oh, really?

• 10:52Speaker 05

  Like, there was, it was the first time it's been a women's only card at the Royal Albert Hall.

• 10:56Speaker 04

  I was there.

• 10:57Speaker 05

  Oh, I was there?

• 10:58Speaker 04

  Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 10:59Speaker 05

  He was probably further to the front.

• 11:01Speaker 04

  I was, yeah, I was, I had my one hand on one of the ropes.

• 11:04Speaker 05

  Yeah, you were in the corner, weren't you?

• 11:06Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 11:06Speaker 05

  But yeah, I love boxing.

• 11:07Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. Um, I, I'll tell you what I do. I've only been to a couple of boxing fights. The sound of them getting hit, I find incredibly upsetting, actually.

• 11:18Speaker 05

  Oh, really?

• 11:18Speaker 04

  And I always feel sorry for the person that loses.

• 11:20Speaker 05

  Really?

• 11:20Speaker 04

  Because I think they worked really hard as well, didn't they?

• 11:22Speaker 05

  But don't you feel like, the thing is with me, which is really interesting, in a Wetherspoons, I can't bear, I cannot bear confrontation.

• 11:30Speaker 04

  Right.

• 11:30Speaker 05

  I can't bear it when it's a scrap, like a, like a mean fight.

• 11:35Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 11:36Speaker 05

  Boxing, I think they've been training for weeks, you know, it's a great payday for them. It's a sort of discipline, you know, I think, take his head off.

• 11:45Speaker 04

  Fine.

• 11:46Speaker 05

  It's crazy.

• 11:47Speaker 04

  Yeah. No, it was, it was, they made quite a jump to take his head off.

• 11:51Speaker 05

  No, I know. It's like.

• 11:53Speaker 04

  I know you felt like that was a smooth runway, but it's still fun. And do you like UFC as well?

• 11:58Speaker 05

  I did like, I like it less now. I did like UFC. Um, I think I've fallen out of love with some of the characters, you know what I mean?

• 12:06Speaker 04

  Right.

• 12:06Speaker 05

  For obvious reasons. But I actually went to a UFC fight, I think it was like 200 or 202, when I was in Vegas.

• 12:13Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 12:13Speaker 05

  Spent all this money that I didn't really have when I was up in the gods and then I had to pay to get the binoculars, but it was like, I think that was like Lesnar, I think Mighty Mouse four, I can't remember. I loved the experience. As I say, I sort of loved the showmanship of it all.

• 12:27Speaker 04

  Yeah. Um, again, UFC is like another level of brutal.

• 12:31Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah. I used to love Ronda Rousey, but then obviously she went over into wrestling and I don't really mess with wrestling. My 44-year-old boyfriend loves pro wrestling.

• 12:40Speaker 04

  Right.

• 12:40Speaker 05

  Yeah. Which I sort of, I think.

• 12:42Speaker 04

  Have you said his, the way you said, can I be honest? The way you said his age,

• 12:46Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 12:46Speaker 04

  implied that you thought he was too old to be into wrestling.

• 12:48Speaker 05

  Ah, yes. I know. And, but do you know what's interesting?

• 12:52Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 12:52Speaker 05

  This is why I fancied him, because he's so into what he's into.

• 12:55Speaker 04

  Right.

• 12:56Speaker 05

  Unapologetically. And I think that's a slay, because it's so naff, it's cool.

• 13:00Speaker 04

  Got you. If you're so into something,

• 13:02Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 13:02Speaker 04

  regardless of how much of an ick that might be.

• 13:05Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 13:05Speaker 04

  That's attractive.

• 13:06Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 13:07Speaker 04

  He's gone through the ick wormhole.

• 13:08Speaker 05

  Correct.

• 13:09Speaker 04

  To being attractive. Yeah, I get that.

• 13:10Speaker 05

  Yes, you know?

• 13:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, I totally get that.

• 13:12Speaker 05

  So, yes, I don't really watch the wrestling. But then he says, you know, when, when we're sort of watching all the boxing, he's like, you know, it's just like pro wrestling. It's like kayfabe. And I'm like, no, I know, you've made that point a hundred times.

• 13:23Speaker 04

  It's, is it like wrestling?

• 13:25Speaker 05

  Well, I think it is because it's kayfabe, isn't it? It's like, nothing's real. It's like politics. It's like, you know, kayfabe is everywhere. Like, nothing is real. We just sort of wear these, we wear these outfits and costumes and play a part and we don't really mean it.

• 13:39Speaker 04

  Yeah. But this is really a podcast.

• 13:41Speaker 05

  No, sorry, yes.

• 13:42Speaker 04

  No. What, what else do you like apart from boxing and UFC? What else are you into?

• 13:45Speaker 05

  What am I into?

• 13:46Speaker 04

  What are the hobbies of Stacey Dooley?

• 13:47Speaker 05

  I'm so dull. I like buying overpriced things for the house.

• 13:51Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 13:51Speaker 05

  I'm into interior design.

• 13:52Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 13:53Speaker 05

  Um, I am into going on holiday, staying at pretentious hotels. Um, that is it.

• 14:01Speaker 04

  Can I ask you what, what you think about this then?

• 14:04Speaker 05

  Go on.

• 14:04Speaker 04

  Because, uh, when we moved into our house, Lisa has bought.

• 14:07Speaker 05

  Have you got a new house?

• 14:08Speaker 04

  Well, we've been in there a couple of years, but.

• 14:10Speaker 05

  Fine, so she's doing it, huh?

• 14:11Speaker 04

  But, but Lisa, I think Ben and Georgie, I don't know if you remember seeing this when you came around. Georgie, you were absolutely battered, so you wouldn't have seen it.

• 14:19Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 14:19Speaker 04

  But, but.

• 14:20Speaker 05

  Good for you.

• 14:21Speaker 04

  But, but, um, Lisa bought,

• 14:24Speaker 05

  Go on.

• 14:25Speaker 04

  They're in, they're in little boxes, they're all on the wall, all the different positions from the Kama Sutra.

• 14:31Speaker 05

  Did she?

• 14:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 14:32Speaker 05

  Get it, girl.

• 14:32Speaker 04

  I know.

• 14:33Speaker 05

  Lucky you.

• 14:34Speaker 04

  It's on the wall. The kids walk past it every day as they go upstairs.

• 14:37Speaker 05

  That's fine, though.

• 14:38Speaker 04

  Is it?

• 14:38Speaker 05

  My, my house, so I live in Liverpool and I've basically got this beautiful old house and I really feel the business in it.

• 14:46Speaker 04

  Really?

• 14:46Speaker 05

  Yeah. You know, when you go to view a house and you're like, there's not a world where I can afford this.

• 14:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 14:50Speaker 05

  But then you can.

• 14:51Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 14:52Speaker 05

  Because, well, only because I'm up north.

• 14:53Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 14:54Speaker 05

  And so you're sort of walking around and you're like, Yeah, I'll take it all.

• 14:57Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 14:59Speaker 05

  That's, I think that's what the lad in Brookside did, now he's very rich. But, um, I love my house and I feel, I'm sort of really house proud and I just sort of, I love doing the house up and then it gets trashed and then I get the ump. But I understand Lisa completely.

• 15:12Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:13Speaker 05

  Do you have any say whatsoever, no?

• 15:15Speaker 04

  Uh, yeah.

• 15:16Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 15:17Speaker 04

  I do have some say.

• 15:18Speaker 05

  That's not useful.

• 15:19Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 15:19Speaker 05

  I don't want Kev to offer any opinions whatsoever.

• 15:22Speaker 04

  Oh, cool.

• 15:23Speaker 05

  Which is really healthy, isn't it?

• 15:25Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's, yeah. Listen, you're, you're running a dictatorship.

• 15:27Speaker 05

  No, but it's really.

• 15:29Speaker 04

  More power to you. Well, I say more power to you, it seems that you've got all of it.

• 15:32Speaker 05

  I don't need any more. I've got all of it. Yeah.

• 15:34Speaker 04

  Um, so i- if he expressed an opinion, what, what happens? I- i- if he said to you, oh, I've seen, I just, let's just see how this would go.

• 15:43Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 15:43Speaker 04

  So he says to you, oh, Stacey, by the way, first of all, before we get into this, I love all the stuff that you, it's so great.

• 15:50Speaker 05

  Thank you.

• 15:51Speaker 04

  And I just thought it'd be cool if I had like a little, like a little thing that, you're already starting to shake your head.

• 15:56Speaker 05

  Go on.

• 15:57Speaker 04

  If I had a little thing, you know what I'd love?

• 16:00Speaker 05

  Go on.

• 16:00Speaker 04

  Is one of those cat, I sort, you know, the cats that do that.

• 16:02Speaker 05

  I do, in the nail shop, yeah.

• 16:04Speaker 04

  I would, well, not just in nail shops, you know, they're all, you know.

• 16:08Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 16:08Speaker 04

  I, I would, I would really, I think it would work really well in the living room if we just sat, and just a small one.

• 16:13Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 16:14Speaker 04

  What do you think?

• 16:15Speaker 05

  Well, listen, I appreciate your input.

• 16:19Speaker 05

  I, I think it'd work in your wardrobe.

• 16:22Speaker 04

  In the wardrobe that's closed?

• 16:24Speaker 05

  In your wardrobe.

• 16:24Speaker 04

  The closed wardrobe?

• 16:25Speaker 05

  In the closed wardrobe.

• 16:26Speaker 04

  So it's for me to, when I'm choosing something to wear?

• 16:28Speaker 05

  When you're saying, oh, what am I gonna wear today? You've got somebody waving at you. That'd be nice for you.

• 16:34Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 16:34Speaker 05

  But thank you.

• 16:35Speaker 04

  Could we keep the wardrobe open then? Like, you know, so it's on display all the time?

• 16:38Speaker 05

  I don't want you to walk into it accidentally.

• 16:41Speaker 04

  Okay, fine.

• 16:42Speaker 05

  This is coercive.

• 16:43Speaker 04

  I thought, I thought.

• 16:45Speaker 04

  Uh, I smell another documentary.

• 16:49Speaker 05

  An authored piece. I know. I am so highly strung. I am so highly strung about the house.

• 16:57Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 16:57Speaker 05

  It's like, I, that's actually not a nice trait, but it's how it is.

• 17:01Speaker 04

  No, listen, we wanted to expose you in some way.

• 17:03Speaker 05

  And here I am, yeah.

• 17:07Speaker 04

  This episode is brought to you by American Express. When I'm not podcasting from my glorious studio, there's a lot of other things I like to do, like going to gigs or sports events. With Amex, you can get the most of experiences like this with some added perks. With Amex, you can earn points on eligible everyday spending, even things like the weekly shop, and put them towards tickets or travel to your next gig. And if that takes you to Aviva Studios in Manchester, Amex card members can enjoy pre-sale tickets, fast track entry, and some of the best seats so you can enjoy more of the night. But I love food too. And for that, there's pre-sale access to London Restaurant Festival with exclusive experiences, plus access to London and Manchester Food Fest at Freight Island.

• 17:47Speaker 04

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• 18:07Speaker 04

  Now, you talked about your start and.

• 18:10Speaker 05

  Yes, yeah.

• 18:11Speaker 04

  And, you know, about coming at it from a non-expert starting position or whatever. But what, what has happened is you've, you've, you're very good at it, right? And, and, and you, you have been able to tackle really challenging, like I, you know, when I was doing your intro, I found it, I was like a bit, when I was talking about the topics that you've dealt with, and that was just to mention, you know, the sort of things you tackle. And you're deep diving into those things. Why do you think you are so good? Like, what, is that, is that something that you've had to think about? Or is it just the way that you deal with people has made, meant that you're good at it? What, what, do you, have you ever been to put your finger on it?

• 18:49Speaker 05

  Yeah, do you know, um, I, it's difficult, it's difficult to talk about the documentaries and not sound too earnest. So that's my sort of disclaimer. But I, you know, when we go into these situations, like often it's really hostile environments, people have been through hell and back, right? Like, you are sort of exposed to, like, the most abhorrent, sort of despicable characters that like walk the earth. I've done like really, really, really intense films. And I think I'm not there to kind of tell the viewer how much information, you know, how sort of

• 19:28Speaker 05

  knowledgeable I am about this, you know, section of society in this part of the world. It's like, it's really my job to go in and sort of speak to the people who are living this experience and make them feel comfy. And then they can tell us from their point of view what life is like. Like, I've never kind of overcomplicated it. It's like, I think, you know, and you know what it's like, like, you know, it can be so sort of, everyone's sort of scratching their chins and sort of, you know, talking about all these very sort of highbrow sort of philosophical ideas. It's like, ultimately, you have to go into a situation, make people feel comfy and understand what life is like for them. And that has served me pretty well. And I remember like the guy giving me my first gig, he was like, Stacey, if you're gonna do this, there'll be, you'll feel a real temptation to conform because this isn't your space.

• 20:12Speaker 05

  And people are gonna tell you that over and over and over again. He said, the reason I asked you to do this is because it isn't your space. There's thousands of journalists that would do a brilliant job, but we like your approach. So it's always, I've always sort of, yeah, I've always sort of done that.

• 20:28Speaker 04

  Well, the, cause the danger is, and you haven't done this.

• 20:31Speaker 05

  Yeah, no.

• 20:31Speaker 04

  But the, but the danger is that you end up doing an impression of documentaries you've seen before, right? Because you sort of think, for you, if you think about it coming into it.

• 20:39Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 20:39Speaker 04

  You probably never would have imagined that you end up doing these documentaries.

• 20:42Speaker 05

  Of course.

• 20:43Speaker 04

  And then you think, how do I do this?

• 20:44Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 20:44Speaker 04

  Let me watch a load.

• 20:45Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 20:46Speaker 04

  And then sort of ape their behaviour in a way, right? And you haven't done that. And then you probably got, I imagine you got some blowback for it initially, right? And then how did you, how did you deal with all that?

• 20:56Speaker 05

  When I was young, I really cared. So, and I think you're so right, and that's why I think he made the phone call. The guy who was in charge at the time, it was like, he sort of understood that I might have done that. Um, and I, and I just thought, oh, I'm just gonna go into this. I was sort of a bit of an opportunist. I was like, well, they're asking if I wanna do a couple of shows for the BBC and I'm working at Luton Airport. Like, I might as well try.

• 21:16Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 21:17Speaker 05

  And then as I say, some people are like, oh, this is a breath of fresh air. This is really interesting territory. She brings a demographic that we can't get to. Hilariously, I think at one point it was like, it's nepotism. I was like, and then someone was, you know, tweeting me, cause I was on Twitter at the time. Who, you know, who's your dad? He must be so high up at the BBC. I was like, my dad's dead. And you know, when you've got, yeah, and I thought, shut up, you.

• 21:41Speaker 04

  I often tell people, even if they're not criticizing, my dad's dead.

• 21:45Speaker 05

  Just to remind you.

• 21:46Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 21:46Speaker 05

  But you know, so there was a bit of that, but in all honesty, I've been really lucky. When I was a younger kid. And you know what it's like, you read things that are wholly untrue, so you wanna go, and that's not even true. You've come to that conclusion, but you know, what you've been privy to isn't even accurate. But.

• 22:01Speaker 04

  There's no point engaging.

• 22:02Speaker 05

  This is it. And then a few years down the line, it was like, you know, we were well received and we were, you know. We were in our sort of top of our place, you know, people were watching the films, so there was an appetite for that style. And then I just.

• 22:15Speaker 04

  What do you think that, if you were to describe that style?

• 22:17Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 22:17Speaker 04

  What would you say it is?

• 22:19Speaker 05

  Probably like emphasis placed on the human story.

• 22:24Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 22:24Speaker 05

  And how informal I am. And, and then, to be totally honest, it sort of got trickier further down the line. Because the more experience I got, the more I was mindful of like editorial policy. And you know, kind of people wanting you to be a bit more neutral and a bit more objective. But my USP, my stick had always been that I wasn't that.

• 22:45Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 22:45Speaker 05

  So then you sort of don't really know what you're doing for a bit.

• 22:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 22:49Speaker 05

  But, um, listen, I, you know, I have had the most amazing life. I can't, you know, it's like, I can't believe it, you know?

• 22:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 22:57Speaker 05

  Very, very, very lucky.

• 22:58Speaker 04

  Well, I, I think, you know, as an outsider looking in, I, I, I think one of the thing, well, there's lots of things that you do that are really great. But the, I think, one, you're, you never come across like you're, I know this is awful to hear somebody tell you what they think of what you do.

• 23:14Speaker 05

  Do you know, no, I'm, I'm listening.

• 23:15Speaker 04

  But, but one, you don't ever come across like you're trying to sound like you know everything about the thing you're talking about, right? Which is, I feel like if you talk about somebody that's perceived as an expert.

• 23:26Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 23:27Speaker 04

  They, they need, there, there, there's an inevitable need to try and put across your expertise on, on screen, right? So you wanna show that. And, and also you're so interested in people above and beyond their story, right? So often, when you start talking to them, you're not talking to them about the actual thing. You're getting to know them and getting to interact with them. And I feel like what you're doing is you're getting a complete picture of that person before you them. And to give you some context to talk about what is they're gonna, you know, the, the nub of what you're gonna talk to them about. It's, it's really unique, actually. I, I think it's really good.

• 24:00Speaker 05

  No, mate, I really, really appreciate that. Cause just, you know, it's like, even like you've been doing it like twenty odd years or whatever. There are still periods where you're like, oh God, what am I doing? You know? But, um, I am really interested. I just find people fascinating. And also I spent so much time with people I never would have met otherwise.

• 24:17Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 24:17Speaker 05

  You know, and there is often common ground, you know? And I've travelled the world extensively. It's like, how did I get this gig? How did I get this gig?

• 24:26Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 24:26Speaker 05

  Most of my twenties, you know, you're gonna do a film in Peru and then you're gonna go to Mexico. And then there's something in Colombia, and then you can fly to Taiwan, and there's something in Phillip. And I was just like, meeting all these wicked, these really fascinating people. It was unbelievable, really.

• 24:41Speaker 04

  Do you have any contributors that really particularly stayed with you?

• 24:44Speaker 05

  Mate, I mean, different contributors stick with you for different reasons, obviously. I mean, like the Yazidi, I did a film in Iraq. I did a couple of films in Iraq, spent a lot of time there. Afghanistan, Middle East, well, Syria. And there was like these girls from the Yazidi community, right? And that, I mean, it's well documented, like, so-called caliphate, like IS came in and, you know, the Yazidi girls through their eyes would sort of bottom of the. Bottom of the pit and they were just treated in such a despicable way. And, you know, so it was just horrific, like the most horrific side of humanity. But these girls sort of familiarised themselves with firearms and kind of trained.

• 25:25Speaker 05

  And then now, and then they were on the front line fighting IS. But these girls were like hairdressers. Or one was a pop star.

• 25:33Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 25:33Speaker 05

  Like one had a market stall. These were ordinary girls in extraordinary situations.

• 25:37Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 25:38Speaker 05

  You know what I mean? Like, to, to hang out with people like that is bonkers. And I always, I often think of them. And then, you know, like people you sort of build up a rapport with and. It's trickier to stay in touch with the girls abroad, especially in those kind of situations, cause they have a SIM and they share a phone and, you know. But, um, it was, you know, I spent time in a lot of prisons where, but you know, sort of killed their own kids and. Um, just done really deplorable things and that sort of stays with you.

• 26:07Speaker 04

  So, you know, you've done over a hundred documentaries.

• 26:09Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 26:09Speaker 04

  Loads and loads of challenging stuff.

• 26:11Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 26:11Speaker 04

  So if you think about the hours of your life.

• 26:14Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 26:14Speaker 04

  That have been spent engaging with some pretty dark shit.

• 26:17Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 26:18Speaker 04

  How are you then disengaging from that?

• 26:20Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 26:20Speaker 04

  Do you know what I mean?

• 26:21Speaker 05

  Yes, I do. I think like I really lean into escapism.

• 26:24Speaker 04

  Right.

• 26:24Speaker 05

  I'm like so daft and so silly and so like, yeah, you know, I watch the Kardashians. And I have a look on Net-a-Porter, so what do I fancy?

• 26:36Speaker 05

  You know, I'm like so lowbrow. I am so lowbrow. In fact, for my birthday, Kev bought me a cameo. You know, you can get them videos off of Mary from Selling Sunset.

• 26:48Speaker 04

  Right.

• 26:49Speaker 05

  I watched the entire, I binged the entire series, yeah.

• 26:53Speaker 04

  What'd she say?

• 26:54Speaker 05

  Hi, Stacey Dooley. I must have it after. Hi, Stacey Dooley. Um, I understand you're into interiors. Me too. Maybe we could do something together, you know? I love all that.

• 27:04Speaker 04

  Yeah. Can I ask like genuinely, and you're such a nice person, but you've talked about some really interesting things on the pod. And the team have only really shown an interest when you talk about that cameo. Do, do you, do you, do you, that's quite, to me, I'm gonna be honest, I'm gonna speak on your behalf, I found that offensive. I, I don't know.

• 27:22Speaker 05

  Do you know what? This is exactly like my mum, Lady Di, right? I've been working tirelessly, trying to make these important films, right? Uh, doing my best, you know, taking my life into my own hands. The only time she has been remotely interested in my career is when I did Strictly.

• 27:39Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 27:40Speaker 05

  She was suddenly, oh, everyone in TK Maxx knew about it. Absolutely everyone. So, yes, the docs, they're not for everyone.

• 27:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, no, we get it, guys. Is Mary your fa- is Mary your favourite?

• 27:51Speaker 05

  I did like Mary. I did like Mary. I've sort of, I'm on my high horse a bit now. But the last series, I'm like, I'm a bit over them tearing chunks out of each other. Yeah, I'm like, everyone chill out. And I just think, I just wanna see the fancy houses. I wanna see your handbags. I could do, I could do without the twins, in all honesty. You know? Have you even seen it? No.

• 28:13Speaker 04

  I've watched the first season.

• 28:15Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 28:15Speaker 04

  And then I thought, I get it.

• 28:16Speaker 05

  Uh, yeah, yeah.

• 28:17Speaker 04

  Below deck, though.

• 28:19Speaker 05

  I've never seen.

• 28:20Speaker 04

  Well.

• 28:20Speaker 05

  I know.

• 28:21Speaker 04

  It is. Let me tell you, Stacey.

• 28:23Speaker 05

  Chaos.

• 28:24Speaker 04

  Fucking unbelievable.

• 28:26Speaker 05

  Yeah, I bet.

• 28:27Speaker 04

  Oh my gosh.

• 28:28Speaker 05

  It's, it's just follows the crew, eh, that working on the boat.

• 28:31Speaker 04

  And, and they, and the same thing happens every series. And I lap it up like it's the first time I've ever seen, oh, they've got into a little bit of bother sexually. That's a surprise.

• 28:43Speaker 05

  Invested. We're so invested and it's tragic.

• 28:47Speaker 04

  And I, and I, and I'll be like, I don't know if you're like this with, uh, with Selling Sunset, but Lisa and I'll be watching it and I'll go to.

• 28:54Speaker 04

  I don't think Sandy should have done that. I don't think she handed it well. And we're talking about it like it's our people.

• 28:58Speaker 05

  No.

• 28:59Speaker 04

  Do you know what I mean? It's like.

• 28:59Speaker 05

  That's what I'm saying.

• 29:00Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 29:01Speaker 05

  Because and then you sort of pick a team, you sort of pick a side.

• 29:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 29:04Speaker 05

  And you're like, oh, that is so a man. Like, oh, I could have told you she was gonna say that.

• 29:09Speaker 04

  At least we go like, trust you to side with Gary.

• 29:11Speaker 05

  Yeah. Might have known you'd be saying that about Gary.

• 29:16Speaker 04

  Um, we had Louis Threw on here.

• 29:18Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah, never heard of him.

• 29:19Speaker 04

  Yeah, he's a.

• 29:20Speaker 05

  An up and coming documentary maker.

• 29:22Speaker 04

  I hadn't before he came on.

• 29:24Speaker 05

  The female Stacey Dooley.

• 29:25Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 29:26Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 29:27Speaker 04

  Um, but he's, he was doing the, the, the man, he did the Manosphere documentary, obviously.

• 29:30Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 29:31Speaker 04

  And one of the things that people said about that is, obviously the Manosphere is something that's continuing to be spoken about and, um. But one of the things that it'd be nice to see a, a woman look into, into that whole world. Is that something that sort of struck you at all?

• 29:44Speaker 05

  I didn't feel like that actually necessarily. I think, you know, Louis is obviously like the OG, you know, he's the kind of guy that we're all sort of in awe of. And I think anything he does, I mean, he's so fucking smart. Like he, you know, he's the best for a reason. I thought it was a fucking great film. I thought it was really exposing. I think.

• 30:01Speaker 04

  I don't mean instead of, by the way.

• 30:03Speaker 05

  No, yeah.

• 30:03Speaker 04

  I mean as well, you know, like.

• 30:04Speaker 05

  I think to be totally honest, you know, a couple of commissioners have sort of said to me, you're interested in that space. I don't know what else we would learn. I don't know, you know, I don't know what else. I don't think there would be any sort of revelation. I sort of, I think we know what that space looks like and how it's problematic. And I thought it was a fucking great film.

• 30:21Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 30:22Speaker 05

  They sort, you know, he sort of gave them enough time to show us for themselves.

• 30:26Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 30:26Speaker 05

  Who they were. And it was, um, it all felt quite, quite tragic, you know, sort of little lads sort of pretending to be.

• 30:33Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 30:33Speaker 05

  Pretending to be. It's like if you asked a five year old, what's a man like?

• 30:38Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 30:38Speaker 05

  That's their interpretation of.

• 30:40Speaker 04

  Really fast car and they've got loads of women in it.

• 30:42Speaker 05

  Yeah, got like loads of money and loads of girls and loads of cars.

• 30:45Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 30:45Speaker 05

  It's like, wow, cool, like.

• 30:47Speaker 04

  Yeah, God, thank God I've left that behind.

• 30:51Speaker 05

  You were drowning in it, weren't you? Drowning in it.

• 30:54Speaker 04

  It was too much. Oh my God, stop.

• 30:56Speaker 05

  But I did think that was.

• 30:58Speaker 04

  Need a break.

• 30:59Speaker 05

  Bloody great film.

• 31:00Speaker 04

  Yeah. Uh, like tell us, we, we want to talk about your three new films.

• 31:03Speaker 05

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 31:04Speaker 04

  Uh, Fallen Women, Down the K-Hole, Death in the Barracks.

• 31:07Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 31:08Speaker 04

  Um, how do you decide what topics to, because they're all, the, the, the Fallen Woman in particular. Well, actually all three of them actually, but Fallen Woman, I, it's about women that have fallen from height and, and the, and the. What the story is behind them getting to that, because the argument is, is it, was this accidental?

• 31:28Speaker 05

  Uh-uh.

• 31:28Speaker 04

  Is this as a result of domestic abuse? You know, all of that. That is a phenomenon that I wasn't aware of at all. So how, how do you decide about the topics that you're gonna tackle?

• 31:36Speaker 05

  Yeah, you're totally right. I was exactly the same. When they said to me, because it's much more collaborative now. So it's like. You know, back in the day, it would be, oh, the channel want you to do this, or, you know, we're interested in this area. Would you be up for it in theory? And there was sort of a couple of girls sort of going for the same gig. But now it's much more like, if I wanna do something, I can sort of bring it to them. And I'm much more involved in like pre-production and post. But so Fallen Women was their idea and I didn't even know it, it was an issue, you know? And then you sort of look at the numbers and you look at the parallels and you look at the details and you think that this. You know, and it's not like we're sort of trying to play detective, but we're just saying there's, there are loads of women who are falling to their death.

• 32:17Speaker 05

  Often from social housing. So it's probably a bit of sort of unconscious bias, you know, people kind of have preconceived ideas of who these women might be. And often they're labelled as being chaotic women or, you know? Um, and you could argue there's not the same sense of urgency to kind of take what's happened to them seriously. But, you know, or it was a tragic accident, or she was suicidal, or she had mental health issues. And absolutely, that might be true. But also, there were so many similarities, like so many of the girls were in really abusive relationships for a very long time. And the perpetrator of those situations was in the flat at the time that she fell.

• 32:57Speaker 05

  So we're just, you know, we're just sort of trying to have a measured, grown up conversation about that. Um, I mean, there's one example, right? It's this girl called Shannon. We speak to her mum and this happened in Bristol. She's going out with this guy. It's just chaos. It's just a total sort of. Toxic, turbulent, awful relationship. He's physically abusive. Um, the night she died. Police got a call from some random in a pub. There's two, you know, there's two people here kicking off. He's. Being physically abusive. She's got black eyes. He rings her mum the night she dies. Saying, I know it's your daughter, but I'm gonna have to kill her. Da, da, da, da, da. The conclusion was.

• 33:43Speaker 05

  Um, you know, it was suicide, she, she jumped. Um. Which, you know, I'm not a detective, I'm not a CID, but you know, I just, I just, I, I find that fascinating. And then there's like this landmark case in Scotland. Because, you know, the, like, the kind of legislation's different. So there's like this case with a lady called Kimberly Mill. She was with this guy, again, just a really abusive relationship, just night met together for years. Um. And then she jumps, she did jump off a bridge. Nobody disputes that. But he was at, he was on the bridge. And they were, they managed to charge him with culpable homicide because they took into consideration what her life had been like for her because of him.

• 34:28Speaker 05

  Don't you think that's interesting?

• 34:30Speaker 04

  Whoa.

• 34:30Speaker 05

  Yeah. So that's kind of.

• 34:33Speaker 04

  That's like a mitigating circumstance or something.

• 34:36Speaker 05

  So it was like, yeah, he, he, he was complicit, he was complicit, you know, the reason she jumped, he played a significant part.

• 34:42Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 34:43Speaker 05

  So, you know, so things are changing and I, I found that really surprising.

• 34:48Speaker 04

  But that's got to be really, that's got to be almost, it feels almost impossible to determine all of that, right?

• 34:52Speaker 05

  Well, this is it. And that, and that's what we were saying. We were saying, no, how do you go about that? And he was like, it's incredibly difficult, but you kind of. Go through hours and hours and hours of footage and CCTV and you read the text, you know, it's, it's a lengthy investigation, but it's really interesting film.

• 35:06Speaker 04

  When, when you start off doing a film like that.

• 35:09Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 35:10Speaker 04

  Do you have like a, what's, do you have an objective? Like, what, what journey are you trying to, I've said journey twice now.

• 35:17Speaker 05

  No, it's fine.

• 35:18Speaker 04

  Just so you know, it's not a thing that we say publicly, but if I say it a third time, I have to stop the episode.

• 35:23Speaker 05

  That's okay.

• 35:24Speaker 04

  It, it, it, it, it's just a rule that we have.

• 35:26Speaker 05

  I might throw up on the third time anyway, so.

• 35:30Speaker 04

  But what are you trying to take the viewers, are, are you thinking you want them to come to a conclusion? Are you trying to come to a conclusion? Or are you just, we're gonna shine a light on this and it's up to you what decision you make?

• 35:40Speaker 05

  Of course. In an ideal world, that's exactly the take. It's like, look, we're not sort of telling you, you know, what to think or how to feel, but this. These are our findings. This is what the situation looks like. You have a conversation. You have a conversation with the person that you've just watched it with and talk about things.

• 35:56Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 35:56Speaker 05

  You, you make up your own minds.

• 35:58Speaker 04

  I mean, that, that, that one in particular that we're talking about is, I think that would just blow up a whole thing that people haven't even, it hadn't occurred to me that was the thing.

• 36:06Speaker 05

  Yeah, no, same.

• 36:06Speaker 04

  It's a pretty amazing.

• 36:07Speaker 05

  Yeah, I'm really pleased they gave us that commission.

• 36:09Speaker 04

  And then the, the, the K-hole one.

• 36:11Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's pretty self-explanatory. So it's like, you know, obviously care is everywhere, you know, loads of kids are taken care. Do you know, it's, it's pretty, I mean, it's an issue everywhere, but the North West is like particularly prolific, like there's, there's. There's a children's hospital in Liverpool, Alderhey, children's hospital, and they've got a wing. Um, that focuses just to look after kids on care. That's like, it's like thirteen year olds, fourteen year olds, fifteen year olds, just care, care, care, care, care. And then the, the thing is, I mean, drugs are bad, you know, we have, we understand that, but it's like, the speed. In which care can destroy your life is, is, is pretty sobering. Like we was in, I was in a rehab in Stockport for four months.

• 36:54Speaker 05

  And they're amazing, you know, kids in their twenties. And you get it, like, you know, they've taken, you know, they've kind of used it recreationally. But then all of a sudden, it's just like, there's lads wearing nappies.

• 37:07Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 37:07Speaker 05

  Because they're just passing parts of their bladder and they're having to get the bladder removed and a new bladder made out of their intestines. I mean, it's like serious surgery, like it totally rids them of any dignity. So that, and, and. The good thing is about that film, right? You like them all. So you're sort of rooting for them. I think it's easy to feel frustrated with addicts at times. But you, you sort of get how they've gotten there.

• 37:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, because I think the instinct is if you're not an addict or haven't come close to being an addict, you just think, sort yourself out. The, the, the, the negative effects are so clear.

• 37:40Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 37:41Speaker 04

  Why can't you get out of this, right? That's, that's your instinctive.

• 37:44Speaker 05

  I agree.

• 37:44Speaker 04

  Reaction, isn't it?

• 37:46Speaker 05

  So, yeah, so I'm really pleased. Let me sort of hear from their loved ones. And, um, you know, you sort of see. The pain, I mean, they're just, two things can be true, you know, you can really adore this person and wanna just grab them and. Shout and scream at them, what the fuck are you doing? You know, sort this out.

• 38:03Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 38:04Speaker 05

  Um, so the kind of nuances are, there's some really like powerful scenes in that film. It's, yeah, it's interesting.

• 38:10Speaker 04

  And then the third film centres on one case in particular, doesn't it?

• 38:13Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, this one's, um, so, yeah, it centres around a girl called Jacy Lee Beck, who was a young soldier. She died by suicide. Um, yeah, teenage girl, like very proud soldier. Sort of becomes clear that there was sort of sexual harassment. She was sexually assaulted by someone much more senior than her colleague. Senior in rank, you know, much older than her. Um, she reports it. He's then promoted. So it kind of forces us to ask the question, you know, how much of an issue is sexual harassment, you know, inside the British Army?

• 38:53Speaker 05

  They need to, you know, we sort of need to have these conversations. And the thing is, we sort of follow Leanne, who's Jacy Lee's mum, just this sort of stoic. Powerhouse who's just like throwing herself into like, you know, she's sort of advocating for her daughter. She's got so many messages. Please keep doing this, please keep doing this. It happened to me, it happened to my sister, you know, it's prolific, it's horrendous. So. That has been, we've sort of followed that play out in real time.

• 39:18Speaker 04

  Yeah. When you see these things, and obviously you're, you're going in as an observer.

• 39:24Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 39:25Speaker 04

  Is there any part of you that thinks like I might like, I don't know, train in that sort of thing? Or or try and you know, try and get, I don't know, work towards getting a skill set that might make you be able to help in those situations?

• 39:38Speaker 05

  Do you know what? One time, right? Sometimes when I've worked with NGOs, you know, like non-government organisations or charities, you know, you meet these people who work

• 39:50Speaker 05

  twelve fourteen hour days, they're up at silly o'clock, they work so hard, they give all of themselves to a cause or a campaign or something they so, so, so believe in. And that's the thing, like, you meet all these baddies. But I do believe there are more goodies than baddies on a very sort of simple level. And you always are, you meet them when you're going, you're sort of understanding these hardships. And I always think, oh, I should get a real job. Do you know what I mean? Do you know what I mean?

• 40:17Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 40:17Speaker 05

  Like, it's like, I was in.

• 40:21Speaker 04

  We feel, it feels like, it makes you feel like you're frothed, doesn't it?

• 40:24Speaker 05

  Yeah, because it's just daft, showbiz. Like, I was in Honduras once and there was a girl called Heidi and she was with this guy and he was in an awful relationship. I'm leaving, he said, you can't leave if you've got no legs. And he machete'd both her legs off. And she survived in front of the kids and she survives. And she is sat in this like homemade wheelchair and there's like all these NGO, there's all these women who have just like made it their life's work to make sure this never happens again. Now, when you're around people like that, you're like, fuck, there are amazing people. They're just less noisy.

• 40:57Speaker 04

  Yeah. This sounds like a mad question after what you've just said, but.

• 41:04Speaker 05

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• 42:03Speaker 05

  It's hard for people to interview me because it's like, I'm so daft, but also.

• 42:10Speaker 05

  It's like, it's like you talk about such serious things and then it's like.

• 42:14Speaker 04

  But, but, you know, sometimes you, when you read about, and like, you've, look, you've been exposed to loads more than, than, than most people. But you lot, part of it is you like to convince yourself that there are no baddies, right? That, that people are how they are as a result of circumstance and what they've been through, et cetera. What you've just described, that sounds like a baddie to me. Like, like, so do you, after having done a hundred plus documentaries, is that what you said is what you believe? That there are, there are just baddies? We have to, right?

• 42:46Speaker 05

  I think there are. Often it's circumstantial, of course. Often it's circumstantial. But I have met a handful of people who I, I just think are, are just inherently bad.

• 42:57Speaker 04

  Is that what you think?

• 42:58Speaker 05

  I mean, I'm not an expert, but they've done pretty deplorable things and don't show any sign of, um.

• 43:06Speaker 04

  Remorse or.

• 43:06Speaker 05

  No remorse whatsoever. You know, I've, I've interviewed some, some pretty shocking people. I interviewed those guys, those British men who had been nicknamed the Beatles.

• 43:18Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 43:18Speaker 05

  Do you remember them? And they were part of ISIS because of their British accents?

• 43:22Speaker 04

  Oh, yes, yeah, yeah.

• 43:23Speaker 05

  And they were doing all of these horrific things to these charity workers. Um, yeah.

• 43:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, so there are baddies. Okay, all right.

• 43:32Speaker 05

  But we're not bad.

• 43:33Speaker 04

  Well, not all.

• 43:34Speaker 05

  No, no, no, no. There are most are good people, but there are some.

• 43:38Speaker 04

  So then, do you, do you, you're, you're quite open on camera about how you're reacting to these things. It feels like, to be honest, that that's how you would conduct yourself, even if there weren't cameras on you.

• 43:51Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 43:52Speaker 04

  Is there any part of it that you're thinking, I'm opening, you're, you're opening yourself up quite a lot in terms of your reactions and stuff? Is that in your head at all? Are you just thinking, let's just see what, are you just going, I'm just going to react how I react and we can deal with that in the edit?

• 44:04Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, the thing is as well, like, when I first started, because I had no editorial input whatsoever and I didn't know how telly works and I didn't know how you make a documentary.

• 44:14Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 44:15Speaker 05

  I thought, you know, they say Ed Paul, like editorial policy. I thought there was a person called Ed Paul.

• 44:20Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 44:21Speaker 05

  Like, that's how out the loop I was. When people would be like.

• 44:24Speaker 04

  It's not going to be happening.

• 44:26Speaker 05

  But you know what I mean? People would be like, what will Ed Paul say? I'd be like, who is this guy that everyone is like so terrified of?

• 44:31Speaker 04

  Let me just get on the phone with Ed. I reckon I can smooth this over.

• 44:35Speaker 05

  Really? You know, so I was like, so I would just do whatever they asked. And if someone said, how are you feeling? I'm just, um, I realise it's, no one's particularly interested in watching a TV presenter cry. Um, so I'm less sort of, I sort of, you know, I can sort of hold, you know, hold it together a bit more, but I'm also much more involved in the edit. So if it looks a bit like, it just feels a bit worthy or whatever, we can just get rid of it.

• 45:02Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, with things like that.

• 45:04Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 45:05Speaker 04

  People don't know what it feels like to actually be there, right? And, and also viewers are cynical.

• 45:12Speaker 05

  Yes, which I get.

• 45:13Speaker 04

  Well, yeah, but I think there's a difference between, we all, you and I both know, there are shows and things

• 45:21Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 45:21Speaker 04

  where crying is part of the.

• 45:23Speaker 05

  Mandatory.

• 45:23Speaker 04

  The, the checklist of things they want to be in the show, right? That's not what's happening with you.

• 45:28Speaker 05

  No.

• 45:28Speaker 04

  So if you have a real reaction, that's legit, right? But then, but then you might, are you saying that afterwards you might think, do you know what?

• 45:34Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think so. Like, I try not to, you know, I mean, like, if, if I'm with the director, normally, you know, we've got a great relationship and I'll just trust that I sort of let them shoot as much as they want or need. If, if, and sometimes you can sense, if they're like fishing, it's like, oh, all right, you know, we've sort of got it now. But, yeah, I, I sort of trust that they're trying to make the best film. Um, but it's fucking, yeah, it's tricky sometimes. You're just like, oh, fucking, sometimes you're sick of the sound of your own voice, aren't you?

• 46:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's difficult because I, I, you know, whenever I've done stuff like that, you get, I know I should watch the edit.

• 46:09Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 46:09Speaker 04

  But the sad thing is I'm in it.

• 46:11Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 46:11Speaker 04

  You know, it's incredibly difficult to watch yourself and just go, you thought that was good, did you?

• 46:15Speaker 05

  Yeah. Ugh. I know. You can't.

• 46:20Speaker 05

  He's awful. You can't really edit yourself because the thing is as well, when you're putting a film together, it's like, you just want to use all the bits where you said something, you know, really concise. And they're like, that doesn't make any sense. You're like, oh, my hair looks nice in that shot. No, okay, you want to use that one. We're like, that's shit, no problem.

• 46:38Speaker 04

  Um, we, now, listen, I know you're disappointed that my mum's not here.

• 46:40Speaker 05

  I am, actually.

• 46:41Speaker 04

  But she has, she has recorded a question for you.

• 46:43Speaker 05

  She has, um.

• 46:44Speaker 04

  Here we go. Let's have a listen. Don't know what this is.

• 46:46Speaker 06

  Hi, Stacey. It's Romesh's mum, Shanti.

• 46:49Speaker 05

  I know.

• 46:50Speaker 06

  I know you have travelled all over the world for your work, sometime some dangerous places. Of all the places you have been, where do you never want to go back to? And where did you feel most at home? Love to know.

• 47:10Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 47:10Speaker 06

  Have a blessed day. Bye, darling.

• 47:13Speaker 05

  Bye, darling. What an angel. She's the real star of the duo, isn't she?

• 47:18Speaker 04

  Please don't keep echoing the comments.

• 47:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, she is. You're absolutely right.

• 47:23Speaker 05

  She's such a sweetheart. Um, where's my fave place and where would I never go? Was that the question? Yeah.

• 47:29Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 47:30Speaker 05

  Um.

• 47:31Speaker 04

  And she also wants you to have a blessed day.

• 47:32Speaker 05

  And I really appreciate that. Um.

• 47:37Speaker 05

  I'm sure, I'm sure.

• 47:40Speaker 05

  Oh, God, it's going to get me cancelled. I don't love Southampton.

• 47:44Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 47:48Speaker 04

  If you'd have given me ten guesses as to what you were going to say, that would have been my third.

• 47:53Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 47:53Speaker 04

  Uh, no, I'm joking. Southampton?

• 47:54Speaker 05

  Yeah, I've got this and it's me.

• 47:57Speaker 04

  But you've been to war zones.

• 47:59Speaker 05

  Yeah, but as I'm saying, like, I can sort of handle that. Like, I,

• 48:05Speaker 05

  I can handle hostile.

• 48:06Speaker 04

  I just want to, I just want to, I just want to summarise this. Southampton more challenging than Iraq? Is, is, is that what you're saying?

• 48:15Speaker 05

  It's not more challenging. I, I had less. I never have a good time in Southampton.

• 48:22Speaker 05

  So, the thing is, and it is me, it's me Southampton, it's not you.

• 48:27Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 48:28Speaker 05

  It is me, I'm gonna have the mayor of Southampton emailing me. Um, I think where it will, so Kev tours a lot, my boyfriend's a dancer, so he tours a lot. So, you know, he'll always do a week in Southampton. And then I was touring.

• 48:41Speaker 04

  Is it the Mayflower?

• 48:42Speaker 05

  Yes, you know that one?

• 48:43Speaker 04

  Yeah, I know it.

• 48:44Speaker 05

  Actually, I am happy to say I don't like Southampton.

• 48:47Speaker 04

  Oh, okay.

• 48:47Speaker 05

  And I'll tell you why, I just remembered something.

• 48:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, I didn't think you were gonna go, you're going further. I thought you were gonna take, I thought you were about to take a step back, but no.

• 48:56Speaker 05

  And another thing. No, well, various reasons.

• 49:01Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 49:01Speaker 05

  One time I found a hair in my fajita. And in a very mediocre restaurant, and I'd paid a lot of money, I thought, this is not a nice pleasant experience.

• 49:11Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 49:11Speaker 05

  As I was dragging somebody else's hair out. But also, I did a play in the Mayflower.

• 49:16Speaker 04

  Right.

• 49:17Speaker 05

  And it's a big space, isn't it?

• 49:18Speaker 04

  It is big, yeah.

• 49:19Speaker 05

  And it was two twenty-two, so it's like a play, where I was like, this woman, have you seen it?

• 49:24Speaker 04

  No, I've not seen it, but I've heard great things. Did you, you toured it, didn't you?

• 49:28Speaker 05

  Yeah, so I did it in the West End.

• 49:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, and then it went on the ride.

• 49:31Speaker 05

  And then we took it on tour.

• 49:33Speaker 04

  Because you, I'm sure you went to the Hall, because I wanted to come and sit at the Hall.

• 49:36Speaker 05

  Yeah, we were crawling.

• 49:37Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 49:38Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 49:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, but I couldn't make it.

• 49:39Speaker 05

  Oh, Matt, no, you're very busy. But it is great, it's a great, great play. But I also, so we were sort of rehearsing and da, da, da, da, da, but it's a big space. Um, and I heard two girls slagging me off in the canteen area, saying I wasn't speaking loud enough. And I felt like saying.

• 49:56Speaker 04

  What girls?

• 49:57Speaker 05

  Just two girls that worked at the theatre.

• 49:58Speaker 04

  Worked at the theatre?

• 50:00Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 50:01Speaker 04

  Slagging you off?

• 50:02Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 50:03Speaker 04

  Do you know what? Fuck Southampton.

• 50:04Speaker 05

  Yeah!

• 50:06Speaker 04

  That is a goddamn disgrace.

• 50:08Speaker 05

  And if you've bought tickets, Russia's very successful.

• 50:10Speaker 04

  Oh shit, no, I'm in Southampton. I am doing, I am doing, I am doing Southampton, I'm doing the Mayflower.

• 50:16Speaker 05

  No.

• 50:17Speaker 04

  Yeah, shit.

• 50:18Speaker 05

  Well, let me tell you, be prepared for feedback.

• 50:21Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 50:23Speaker 05

  Because you're getting it, whether you like it or not, off of Sally and Trace.

• 50:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, okay. Well, that was bloody, but I'm looking, but listen, I'm bloody looking forward to it.

• 50:31Speaker 05

  Yeah. So, I don't love Southampton.

• 50:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, okay.

• 50:36Speaker 05

  Yeah, is the answer.

• 50:37Speaker 04

  Uh, where would you like to go back to the most?

• 50:39Speaker 05

  Oh, do you know, this, I obviously have such a soft spot for India, because that was like the first place I went to. That was like outside of Europe, and also it was like, just, that's really, again, I sort of get how like lame this sounds. But like, it did change my life.

• 50:54Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 50:54Speaker 05

  Went to India, like, had all of these incredible experiences, and then had a brilliant life for the next twenty years. It was like, great.

• 51:02Speaker 04

  India is, I love India.

• 51:05Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 51:05Speaker 04

  Let's get that out of the way.

• 51:06Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 51:07Speaker 04

  But what I would say is, challenging to film in India, I think.

• 51:10Speaker 05

  Really?

• 51:10Speaker 04

  Is a fair thing to say, is that right?

• 51:12Speaker 05

  Have you filmed over there, yeah?

• 51:13Speaker 04

  Yeah, and Ben, you filmed there in Lys.

• 51:14Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 51:15Speaker 04

  Haven't you?

• 51:15Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 51:16Speaker 05

  And how, how?

• 51:18Speaker 04

  How? How did he manage to get that job? Is that what you're asking? Because, to be honest with you, Stacey, that's a question we've, we've been too scared to ask. Do you know what? This is why you're a good documentarian. You ask the questions, nobody else has got the guts. How the fuck did you end up filming in India?

• 51:35Speaker 05

  I'm not questioning your credentials or your CV, I'm saying, how did you find it tricky?

• 51:41Speaker 06

  It's just intense, isn't it?

• 51:42Speaker 05

  Because it's so busy.

• 51:43Speaker 06

  We were with, uh, yeah, I went with Carl the first time, and then like, just like you'd go out on the street, and then.

• 51:49Speaker 05

  Logistics.

• 51:49Speaker 06

  People are interested, right? But you end up in a crowd of like seventy, we were in an old deli, and it's just like.

• 51:54Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 51:55Speaker 06

  Intense, and everyone's trying, and personal space feels like less of a.

• 51:58Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 51:58Speaker 06

  Issue there.

• 51:59Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, I just love the fuss maybe then.

• 52:02Speaker 06

  Maybe.

• 52:02Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 52:04Speaker 06

  It's just, it's just a lot.

• 52:05Speaker 05

  Yeah, it is a lot, it's like an assault on all your senses, but I think that's what I love. And I think, so I'd never experienced anything like it before. I remember like, driving to like the location when we got off the plane, and it was just like, I didn't know what to like. I didn't know what to react to first.

• 52:20Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 52:20Speaker 05

  You know, so.

• 52:20Speaker 04

  Was that your, so your first time out of Europe?

• 52:23Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 52:23Speaker 04

  Landing in India?

• 52:24Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 52:25Speaker 04

  I mean, that's proper travelling.

• 52:26Speaker 05

  It was phenomenal, and, and, yeah, it was just incredible. And we went right the way down to the border, spent a lot of time in Mumbai.

• 52:34Speaker 04

  Mumbai's amazing.

• 52:35Speaker 05

  Mumbai's amazing.

• 52:36Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 52:36Speaker 05

  Mumbai's amazing, um, there's an area, what's it called? I can't remember, it's Pali Villa, anyway, there's an amazing part of Mumbai, and I just thought, this, this is a real treat.

• 52:46Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 52:47Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 52:47Speaker 04

  You have like, obviously various different influences, and you talk a lot about, um, about the women that you've met that have been through difficult things.

• 52:54Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 52:55Speaker 04

  What, uh, is there stuff that you've learnt from some of the, you know, some of the women that have gone through stuff and come through it and are able to fight the battles, you know, that they've gone through? Uh, is there anyone that stayed, do anything you've learnt from them?

• 53:06Speaker 05

  Yes, geez, yeah, I mean, you sort of, you try and be a bit more like them, because they're so bloody impressive, and you realise that you've done very little. Like, you know what I mean, like in the grand scheme of things, it's like, um, I actually, I wrote a book, my first book, it was about, it's women on the front line who fight back. So it's basically me just sort of talking you through all of these women I'd met over the past decade, and just, you know, what you sort of take from spending time with them. And it's kind of a celebration of all the fucking wicked women I've met over the years. I think as well, it's so easy for us like, um, to be kind of portrayed as, you know, the, the sex that always, you know, we're always, we're often the victims.

• 53:49Speaker 05

  Or, you know, it's often sort of horrific things happening to us, but also like, there's so many impressive women doing really impressive things. So, that book was really cool, because I sort of went back and just remembered everybody that I'd come across.

• 54:01Speaker 04

  And it smashed it, didn't it as well?

• 54:02Speaker 05

  That did well, yeah. The, the, the.

• 54:05Speaker 04

  Difficult for you to say, but it did well.

• 54:07Speaker 05

  No, it was a Sunday Times bestseller.

• 54:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, there you go.

• 54:11Speaker 05

  The other two weren't, annoyingly, but you can't win them all.

• 54:13Speaker 04

  No, you can't.

• 54:14Speaker 05

  Have you written a book? Must have.

• 54:16Speaker 04

  I've, uh, written four.

• 54:19Speaker 05

  Mate, my god.

• 54:20Speaker 04

  Two, like, sort of memoir-y things.

• 54:22Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 54:23Speaker 04

  And two children's books. But, um, but the, I was, this is what I was gonna ask you, because when I first started writing my first book.

• 54:30Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 54:31Speaker 04

  I, um, I sent, you know, they wanted me to send like the first couple of chapters.

• 54:35Speaker 05

  Yeah, in it, to see how bad you are.

• 54:37Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 54:37Speaker 05

  Yeah, they asked me to do the same.

• 54:38Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 54:38Speaker 05

  So how much help is this girl gonna need?

• 54:41Speaker 04

  So I sent them, and he came back to me and he said, this doesn't sound like you. I had done what I asked, you know, you know when I said to you about when you do a documentary?

• 54:47Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 54:48Speaker 04

  You, you, you don't wanna copy what other people have done?

• 54:50Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 54:50Speaker 04

  I had sort of become author-y.

• 54:52Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah.

• 54:53Speaker 04

  When I was like doing the chap, and he just said to me, oh, it doesn't sound like, people aren't buying the book to see your author version. Like, they wanna hear from, they want you to write this, right? So I had to re, completely rewrite it, because it was like, I was just trying to be. Did you, did you find, how did you find writing in your own voice?

• 55:09Speaker 05

  I think the bar, the expectation was so low, it was like, they sort of wasn't expecting anything, even remotely readable.

• 55:18Speaker 04

  Just like a couple of sentences and some drawings that you've done. This is what one of the women looked like, just a little stick figure.

• 55:24Speaker 05

  With the triangle dress.

• 55:26Speaker 04

  My hero.

• 55:29Speaker 05

  She was lovely.

• 55:30Speaker 04

  Yeah. W O Z.

• 55:35Speaker 05

  Suddenly.

• 55:36Speaker 04

  Just a little line, arrow, frontline, woman.

• 55:41Speaker 05

  Fixing the world, I honestly think, I honestly think that was the sort of level of expectation. So, I think, yeah, actually, the one thing I did do all right, was when people used to say to me, they've read the book, they were like, oh, we could hear you.

• 55:55Speaker 04

  That's good.

• 55:56Speaker 05

  You know, as we was reading it, we was reading it in your voice almost.

• 55:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 55:59Speaker 05

  So that was the one thing we did get right.

• 56:01Speaker 04

  I did a chapter in my second book.

• 56:03Speaker 05

  Go on.

• 56:04Speaker 04

  And it was about, this is so disgusting, but anyway. It was basically about my, I've got a chili sauce addiction.

• 56:10Speaker 05

  Oh, fine.

• 56:10Speaker 04

  And how it was affecting my digestive system. And I went into quite graphic detail.

• 56:14Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 56:15Speaker 04

  About how much I was having to shit.

• 56:17Speaker 05

  No, fine.

• 56:18Speaker 04

  And when you're typing that.

• 56:20Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 56:20Speaker 04

  It's fine, when it's not fine.

• 56:22Speaker 05

  Is it fine when you're typing that?

• 56:25Speaker 04

  It's a really good question, actually. It's like.

• 56:28Speaker 05

  Lisa was busy downstairs.

• 56:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 56:30Speaker 05

  Sorting the ornaments out.

• 56:31Speaker 04

  But when I, when I, um, when I had to do the audio book.

• 56:35Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 56:36Speaker 04

  Horrific.

• 56:37Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 56:37Speaker 04

  And then, and also, when you do the audio bit, there's a person.

• 56:40Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 56:40Speaker 04

  Who's running the session, just sitting there looking at you like this.

• 56:43Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 56:44Speaker 04

  And then I'm just sort of going, and it was pouring out of me.

• 56:48Speaker 05

  Like a river. No, I know.

• 56:50Speaker 04

  Why did I do this?

• 56:51Speaker 05

  You feel sort of quite lame and quite vulnerable, don't you? Because you're sort of, you know, you've put a lot into this book, well, you've put a lot into the book, and then you're sort of.

• 57:00Speaker 04

  I did as well, Stacey. So, wow, I don't know what, I don't know, that was quite, quite horrible gesture you made there.

• 57:07Speaker 05

  No, I just mean that, you know, that was probably one of the lighter chapters, eh?

• 57:11Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 57:11Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 57:14Speaker 05

  And then you've sort of got this person in the corner just staring at you thinking, I've got another eight hours and then we're back tomorrow.

• 57:22Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 57:22Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 57:23Speaker 04

  Are there any women that you'd like to do a documentary that you haven't done yet?

• 57:26Speaker 05

  Good question.

• 57:27Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 57:29Speaker 05

  Who was I liked? Well, actually, so you know Celine Dion's on tour?

• 57:35Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 57:36Speaker 05

  So I have no shame whatsoever. I didn't get the tickets. So I put a post on Insta and I was basically begging. I was like, has anyone got any tickets to Celine Dion?

• 57:45Speaker 04

  Right.

• 57:45Speaker 05

  Like, I'm not even on the scrounge. Obviously, I'll buy them, but I just need some tickets.

• 57:49Speaker 04

  So you tried, sold out instantly?

• 57:51Speaker 05

  Well, I'm always nervous about what website. I'm like an old lady.

• 57:55Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 57:55Speaker 05

  I'm like, I'm gonna get scammed if I put, buy anything on the internet.

• 57:58Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 57:59Speaker 05

  Like, and I can't copy and paste an email. It's, I just can't. I'm computer literate. So I thought, let me just put the feeling that I must know someone who knows, someone in showbiz who might know Celine. Or not even, not her, but her team.

• 58:13Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 58:13Speaker 05

  Anyway, I think I've got these tickets, which is great news. So.

• 58:18Speaker 04

  Well, you had to send over three grand.

• 58:21Speaker 05

  Your passport. We've got your tickets all in it, your passport, your mortgage details, your child's full name. Yeah. So I'm gonna go over there.

• 58:30Speaker 04

  That's exciting.

• 58:31Speaker 05

  Yeah, that would be so fun. Imagine if I sort of get beat backstage and I get to like spend some time with Celine. That would be incredible.

• 58:37Speaker 04

  That would be great.

• 58:37Speaker 05

  I also met another one of my heroes, Gloria Estefan.

• 58:40Speaker 04

  How was that?

• 58:41Speaker 05

  That was amazing.

• 58:43Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 58:43Speaker 05

  We did a show together and then I was like singing the wrong lyrics to her song to her.

• 58:50Speaker 04

  Nice.

• 58:50Speaker 05

  And she was sort of very, you know, gracious. She sort of entertained me.

• 58:54Speaker 04

  Did she tell you?

• 58:55Speaker 05

  Uh, no.

• 58:57Speaker 04

  That is very gracious.

• 58:58Speaker 05

  That is very gracious.

• 58:59Speaker 04

  That's incredibly gracious.

• 59:00Speaker 05

  And then I made a cake and sort of in homage to her and she was very sweet about that as well. So I've already sort of interviewed her in a way, like I've spent time with her.

• 59:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, all the key parts of an interview, getting the lyrics wrong, giving her a cake.

• 59:13Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 59:14Speaker 04

  But I always think if, once you've done those two things, the interview's done.

• 59:19Speaker 05

  Piers Morgan could never. But who would I seriously like to interview? I mean, I, and this again, is a really like, oh, I'm so normal. This is like, oh, I'm so normal, this answer. But it's true. I much prefer interviewing ordinary people.

• 59:34Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 59:35Speaker 05

  You know, in their living rooms, cup of tea, everyone's got a story. You know, the, you know, I've interviewed politicians and, you know, they ask for the questions prior to sitting down with you. And then they've got a kind of rehearsed answer and then the whole thing is very underwhelming.

• 59:51Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 59:51Speaker 05

  So I love hanging out with normal people.

• 59:53Speaker 04

  Hmm. Yeah, not me.

• 59:55Speaker 05

  No.

• 59:55Speaker 04

  Not for me, that.

• 59:56Speaker 05

  Not showbiz, you eh?

• 59:58Speaker 04

  Dreadful. No, thank you.

• 1:00:01Speaker 05

  Absolutely not. Okay.

• 1:00:03Speaker 04

  I don't mind seeing them when I'm out and about doing my normal day.

• 1:00:06Speaker 05

  Sort of waving from a distance.

• 1:00:06Speaker 04

  Yeah, but don't get too close.

• 1:00:08Speaker 05

  No, you don't want to convert.

• 1:00:09Speaker 04

  Scum.

• 1:00:10Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:00:10Speaker 04

  Uh, okay.

• 1:00:11Speaker 05

  But buy my tickets.

• 1:00:13Speaker 04

  Uh, okay, we're gonna play a game called Misquoted, Stacey.

• 1:00:16Speaker 05

  Okay, yeah.

• 1:00:17Speaker 04

  Uh, gonna give you some quotes. Did you say them or did you not?

• 1:00:20Speaker 05

  Oh, boy. Oh, man. Okay.

• 1:00:22Speaker 04

  Okay, you ready?

• 1:00:23Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:00:23Speaker 04

  Here's your first one.

• 1:00:24Speaker 05

  You hate Southampton.

• 1:00:26Speaker 04

  Yeah. Um, when I was filming in prisons, I realised the food was not dissimilar to school dinners.

• 1:00:33Speaker 05

  That is true.

• 1:00:34Speaker 04

  That's true. You said that to the Daily Mail in twenty five.

• 1:00:37Speaker 05

  I can't have given the Daily Mail an interview. Maybe they took it from someone else.

• 1:00:41Speaker 04

  Um, well, the quote continues, P S, you're my favourite publication.

• 1:00:49Speaker 05

  Everything you stand for, I stand for.

• 1:00:51Speaker 04

  Yeah. Um, do you, so do you have beef with Jamie Oliver?

• 1:00:57Speaker 05

  I don't think so.

• 1:00:57Speaker 04

  He's trying to change school dinners, isn't he?

• 1:01:00Speaker 05

  Oh, yes, that was his, they wasn't it? Turkey Twizzlers?

• 1:01:02Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:01:03Speaker 05

  And I, I actually love Turkey Twizzlers.

• 1:01:05Speaker 04

  Hmm. Well, we had him on the podcast as well and he said he was just trying to get them to put more than sixty five percent meat in.

• 1:01:10Speaker 05

  That's fair enough, I suppose.

• 1:01:12Speaker 04

  Because it was just, before that, it was just turkey and stuff that had fallen off a turkey that it might have picked up from just wandering around.

• 1:01:19Speaker 05

  Bit gravel.

• 1:01:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, sort of turkey debris.

• 1:01:22Speaker 05

  I am a middle class mother now, so I probably feel quite differently towards the Turkey Twizzlers.

• 1:01:25Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:01:26Speaker 05

  You know, my friend has got a kid that goes to nursery and you know what that kid had?

• 1:01:29Speaker 04

  What?

• 1:01:29Speaker 05

  Horisakod.

• 1:01:32Speaker 05

  I'm deadly serious.

• 1:01:35Speaker 04

  That is wild.

• 1:01:37Speaker 05

  You know, on the apps?

• 1:01:38Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:01:38Speaker 05

  It's like, huh, so and so had Horisakod for lunch. I'm like, Horisakod? How's that?

• 1:01:45Speaker 04

  That is.

• 1:01:46Speaker 05

  Yeah. But my baby loves, she loves capers. She's like, go on, you anchovies, mum. I'm like, keep.

• 1:01:50Speaker 04

  Got any anchovies, mum?

• 1:01:53Speaker 05

  Keep your voice down. So off brand.

• 1:01:55Speaker 04

  That is great, though.

• 1:01:56Speaker 05

  Very off brand.

• 1:01:57Speaker 04

  Yeah. Um, okay, here's your next one.

• 1:01:58Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 1:02:00Speaker 04

  You have to look after yourself mentally when you're making films about incest and paedophilia and cartels cutting people's heads off.

• 1:02:06Speaker 05

  I probably did say that.

• 1:02:08Speaker 04

  You did to The Guardian in twenty nineteen.

• 1:02:10Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:02:10Speaker 04

  The quote goes on to say, P S, you're my favourite publication. It seems like you say this, it seems to say this in a lot of your interviews.

• 1:02:20Speaker 05

  You gotta keep them sweet.

• 1:02:21Speaker 04

  Is it true that you use Little Mix to get you out of the funk?

• 1:02:23Speaker 05

  That is very true. I am an enormous Little Mix fan and I've met, I've only met one, I've only met one Little Mixer and it was a very pleasant experience. She didn't disappoint.

• 1:02:36Speaker 04

  Uh, okay, here's your next one. Uh, no filming location has got a patch on Mikasa.

• 1:02:42Speaker 05

  No, I don't think I'd have said that.

• 1:02:43Speaker 04

  You didn't say that. Uh, the.

• 1:02:46Speaker 05

  I think it.

• 1:02:47Speaker 04

  Yeah, sure. Uh, recently, this is your quote to The Guardian in twenty twenty two. Uh, recently I was hanging out with a load of nuns in a convent and I was like, actually, I really love what they've done with the place.

• 1:02:58Speaker 05

  That is true.

• 1:02:59Speaker 04

  P S, you're still my favourite publication.

• 1:03:03Speaker 05

  Please write nice things about them.

• 1:03:04Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:03:05Speaker 05

  Um, yeah, I had an amazing time in that convent. I've got to say, I spent a couple of weeks in a convent. They were a scream.

• 1:03:11Speaker 04

  Really?

• 1:03:12Speaker 05

  And this is the thing, you go in and you know, however sort of open minded you think you are, you have preconceived ideas.

• 1:03:17Speaker 04

  About nuns.

• 1:03:18Speaker 05

  Uh, you know, you think they're gonna be like.

• 1:03:19Speaker 04

  That's all I think about.

• 1:03:20Speaker 05

  Really, really straight laced and very sort of dull. They were great company.

• 1:03:26Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:03:27Speaker 05

  And actually, one of them talked me into having a baby.

• 1:03:29Speaker 04

  Really?

• 1:03:30Speaker 05

  Yeah. She was like, you know, Stacey, I know you think like, showbiz is like gonna last forever, but it's not.

• 1:03:38Speaker 04

  No.

• 1:03:39Speaker 05

  And then you're gonna turn into an old lazy and what are you gonna have to show for it?

• 1:03:42Speaker 04

  Doesn't sound that motivational, I think that woman is saying. You're gonna be a withered old hag with no, with no children to speak of.

• 1:03:49Speaker 05

  Sister Helen was like, just like talking to me about, I just was having this sort of like existential crisis in Whitby. Um, yeah, it was an amazing, it's a good film, that.

• 1:04:01Speaker 05

  Don't watch it, but it is a good film.

• 1:04:02Speaker 04

  Oh, okay. Don't watch it.

• 1:04:03Speaker 05

  No, you've probably seen enough, but it is a good one.

• 1:04:06Speaker 04

  No, I've not seen it. I've not, I've not decided I've seen enough.

• 1:04:09Speaker 05

  No.

• 1:04:10Speaker 04

  I'd love to watch it.

• 1:04:11Speaker 05

  It is a, it is a great film.

• 1:04:12Speaker 04

  Is that conversation in the thing?

• 1:04:13Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:04:14Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:04:14Speaker 05

  And it's because I am desperate to be, I would love to be religious. Like, you know, people are like, don't convert me.

• 1:04:20Speaker 04

  It feels so deeply reassuring, doesn't it?

• 1:04:23Speaker 05

  That's what I'm saying.

• 1:04:24Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:04:24Speaker 05

  People are like, don't try and convert me. I'm like, I'm desperate for you to convert me.

• 1:04:27Speaker 04

  That, that rock steady faith.

• 1:04:29Speaker 05

  Of course. Unwavering.

• 1:04:31Speaker 04

  Remarkable.

• 1:04:32Speaker 05

  Everything's happening for a reason. You are gonna be looked after.

• 1:04:35Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:04:36Speaker 05

  Everything has a purpose. Lean into it.

• 1:04:39Speaker 04

  I think conspiracy theories thrive in the absence of religion.

• 1:04:42Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:04:43Speaker 04

  You know, because it's, it's, it's much nicer to believe that this has been organised in some way.

• 1:04:48Speaker 05

  I'm so envious.

• 1:04:49Speaker 04

  Yeah. Uh, lucky, lucky you. Uh, here's your next one. I don't even like flying. The fact I get on a fucking plane to get there is a miracle in itself.

• 1:04:57Speaker 05

  I probably did say that.

• 1:04:58Speaker 04

  Yes, you were directly quoting, uh, Mr. T. Uh, no, you weren't.

• 1:05:02Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 1:05:02Speaker 04

  I get an old plane. Uh, no, sorry, that was quite a niche eighteen reference. Uh, you said that to N M E in twenty eighteen. So do you not like, you don't like flying at all? Is that still true?

• 1:05:12Speaker 05

  I hate flying.

• 1:05:13Speaker 04

  Really?

• 1:05:14Speaker 05

  I hate flying, but again, it's completely, it doesn't make any sense, my fear. I don't like flying over water. So if I'm going America or South America, I am a nervous wreck. I mean, crying, holding on to the air hostesses' hands.

• 1:05:28Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:05:29Speaker 05

  Are we gonna be okay? Are we gonna be okay?

• 1:05:32Speaker 04

  They don't know.

• 1:05:33Speaker 05

  They don't know, but they assure me we are. Hate the water. If I'm going east, I'm fine.

• 1:05:37Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:05:38Speaker 05

  It doesn't make any sense, does it?

• 1:05:39Speaker 04

  No, a lot of these things don't make sense.

• 1:05:40Speaker 05

  Because I just think, oh, if we're gonna crash, it's like, they're like, oh, you're safer going into the water. I'm like, I would rather not. I would rather them see that there's a fault and then we've got loads of bases to potentially land in.

• 1:05:50Speaker 04

  Yeah, I get it.

• 1:05:51Speaker 05

  When we're in the middle of the Atlantic, when you look at those screens, I'm like, why have they done this?

• 1:05:55Speaker 04

  I, I've never understood when people go, if you don't like flying, they go, you're more likely to get into an accident on the way to the airport. And you go, why have you given me another thing to worry about?

• 1:06:03Speaker 04

  Is that supposed to be reassuring?

• 1:06:05Speaker 05

  Don't worry. Okay.

• 1:06:07Speaker 04

  Um, okay, here's your last one. You've done very well so far.

• 1:06:09Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:06:10Speaker 04

  That was quite camp, wasn't it? You've done very well so far.

• 1:06:12Speaker 05

  Thank you.

• 1:06:13Speaker 04

  Uh, it got to the point where I was walking across dead bodies to get to work and I realised I needed some better shoes.

• 1:06:18Speaker 05

  I wouldn't have said that.

• 1:06:21Speaker 04

  It'd be fucking amazing if you did. If you'd have said that. Oh, why did I get my Jimmy Choo's? Uh, it's because, uh, here's a quote.

• 1:06:31Speaker 05

  Go on.

• 1:06:31Speaker 04

  I'd been to Iraq a couple of times. It was all quite harrowing. It got to the point where I was walking across dead bodies to get to work. And I thought, you know what? I wouldn't mind taking a couple of months to be at home, see my crowd, see my family, prioritise home a bit and do strictly.

• 1:06:43Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:06:44Speaker 04

  Hello in twenty nineteen. You know how the quote continues? You're my favourite publication.

• 1:06:47Speaker 05

  Yay.

• 1:06:49Speaker 04

  But that was, but I guess family time and all of that.

• 1:06:52Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:06:52Speaker 04

  And like strictly.

• 1:06:53Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:06:55Speaker 04

  I know it sounds, to have a bit of fluff.

• 1:06:57Speaker 05

  Of course.

• 1:06:58Speaker 04

  Is good, right? In those circumstances, isn't it?

• 1:07:01Speaker 05

  I totally echo that. And that's the thing, you know, sometimes people have never really, they've felt frustrated by me. It's like, are you a serious documentarian?

• 1:07:09Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:07:10Speaker 05

  Or are you making, um, light a telly tonally? And I'm like, I will just do what I want, you know, and, and you can do all of it, you know, you don't have, I mean, you, you do everything. It's like, you know, I'm just, I'm an adult now and I'll just decide what I'm interested in and then I'll just do that, you know. I did, and I got such, like, I did, um, I hosted a makeup show for a couple of years and these were talented artists, you know what I mean? But because it's makeup, you know, people sort of trivialise it and it's like, this, like, these kids are real, you know, they're artists. Like, and I did that after I'd done a panorama and that, you can imagine, like, all these kind of middle class sort of journo's going, and I just, I don't subscribe to the idea that people are one dimensional, particularly women.

• 1:07:54Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:07:54Speaker 05

  So, yeah, I did do that. They asked me a couple of times and then I'd done some quite full on films. And then it just felt quite, um, appealing, the idea of sort of learning the quickstep.

• 1:08:07Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:08:07Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:08:08Speaker 04

  Well done for doing it.

• 1:08:09Speaker 05

  Thank you.

• 1:08:10Speaker 04

  Um, now we're almost at the end of the podcast. I'm sorry to say.

• 1:08:13Speaker 05

  I am sorry to hear that.

• 1:08:14Speaker 04

  It's really sad, isn't it?

• 1:08:15Speaker 05

  It's very sad.

• 1:08:16Speaker 04

  Sorry about the, can I just say, before we do finish, sorry about the team.

• 1:08:20Speaker 05

  No, listen, I've had a lovely time. You've taken notice of him. I've had a lovely time.

• 1:08:26Speaker 04

  That means a lot. That means a lot to us. Oh, shut up, shush. Shut the fuck up.

• 1:08:32Speaker 05

  You spoke yesterday.

• 1:08:36Speaker 04

  We like to end the podcast on a big moment.

• 1:08:38Speaker 05

  Oh, yes.

• 1:08:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, so what we're after is something you haven't said publicly before, the best advice you've been given, some ambition you have never expressed before, just anything like that, really. Best advice you ever have given.

• 1:08:50Speaker 05

  Ha, okay. So something very sort of poignant.

• 1:08:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, basically.

• 1:08:57Speaker 05

  To end this episode.

• 1:08:58Speaker 04

  Yeah, we're looking for, you know, anything that will go viral, really. But sort of a million plus is what we're thinking, isn't it?

• 1:09:03Speaker 05

  Yes, nice, fine.

• 1:09:04Speaker 04

  That's likes, not views.

• 1:09:05Speaker 05

  Fine, no, fine, fine, fine. Oh, I did have a bit of a kind of showbiz fling once. Yeah? You want to hear more?

• 1:09:16Speaker 04

  No, I think that's it. Thank you. Thank you so much, Stacey D.

• 1:09:24Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 1:09:25Speaker 05

  How fun.

• 1:09:27Speaker 04

  Thank you so much for watching and listening to this episode. Before you go, if you've enjoyed this episode and you've not subscribed, that's a bold decision, crazy behaviour. Follow and subscribe to The Romesh Rang and Nathan Show wherever you listen. It helps me, really, like, really helps me. It helps the team. And it costs you absolutely nothing. We drop episodes every Monday and Thursday. Mondays, I'm joined by great guests. Thursdays, when Mum Shanti joins me to answer your questions and family dilemmas. I'll see you Thursday with Mum, who, let's face it, is who you're actually here for. If you've got a problem you want to solve or a story you want to share, send it to [email protected], voice note or text us on 07731 623355. We can't promise good advice,

• 1:10:10Speaker 04

  but you might end up on the show. See you soon. Oh, shut up, Romesh.

• 1:10:17Speaker 00

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• 1:10:47Speaker 01

  From the studio that brought you WandaVision.

• 1:10:49Speaker 02

  I was an Avenger, but I'm not a hero anymore.

• 1:10:55Speaker 01

  The Vision returns for the final chapter of the groundbreaking trilogy.

• 1:10:59Speaker 02

  That family wasn't real.

• 1:11:00Speaker 03

  You sure about that? I had a father called Vision. How is this possible?

• 1:11:06Speaker 01

  Don't miss the two-episode premiere of Marvel Television's Vision Quest. Nothing bonds a family together quite like Mortal Jeopardy. Now streaming only on Disney+.