JoJo

Questlove and JoJo are NOT close friends. They aren’t—or at least, that’s how they approached this conversation: two pals from different genres and generations who have bonded in recent years, sitting down to see what else they might have in common. For The Questlove Show, the two get into JoJo’s evolution from teen prodigy to Grammy-winning, multi-platinum artist—songwriting camps, vocal discipline, Broadway chops, creative blocks, and what it means to define success on your own terms. JoJo also gets real about periods of feeling low, her family, and why she’s no longer interested in trauma-dumping in the studio—but still wants the music to hit you hard. And, because this is QLS, we go everywhere: Boston accents, mermaid dreams, theater nerd deep dives, the standards for singing in the age of AI, and the story behind her viral flip of “Marvin’s Room” by Drake. This is a conversation about craft, resilience, growing up in public, and choosing joy without losing the soul. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

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• 1:05Speaker 00

  The Questlove Show is a production of iHeart Radio.

• 1:18Speaker 00

  All right, we're gonna, okay. Anyway, ladies and gentlemen. Wait, this is starting off the way that I didn't want it to start off. Okay.

• 1:31Speaker 00

  We're gonna breathe. All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to The Questlove Show. So as you know, I have personally spent the greater part of this decade buried in a lot of metaphysical books and self-help books. I've said it over and over again, yada, yada, yada. But at some point, the brain actually needs a break. And those few times that I've taken a break and went left and, you know, my go-to thing has always been music memoirs. And me picking up a particular music memoir also conveniently lined up with one of my very first game nights in Los Angeles, where our pal and friend of the show, Jasmaa Seifus-Jones,

• 2:16Speaker 00

  she basically rolled in with today's guest as her plus one. And I remember the rapid timing of gasps and that went around the room when our guest entered game night. And I will say that probably we hit it off famously. So cut to a week later, I'm book shopping in the airport, and boom, there she is on the shelf staring back at me on her cover. And I thought, okay, let me see what the journey has been for our guest, because I really haven't kept up since, you know, her days of when I first seen her on CRL last

• 3:00Speaker 00

  year and, you know, in the early aughts and whatnot. I gotta say, 20 years plus, you know, the resume that she's not going to brag about, being the artist with the, I guess, the youngest artist with a number one single. She's gone multi-platinum, a Grammy, of course, for Say So, and not to mention Satina Mullen-Ruz on Broadway. And yeah, an instant New York Times bestseller memoir called Over the Influence, and which not only I read as a book, but I read with the companion audiobook, in which, to me, that was the game changer of it all. Like, I basically had to read the book twice.

• 3:43Speaker 00

  And timing has really never worked before, and the stars have aligned, in which our guest has finally come to the show.

• 3:54Speaker 00

  And I'm gonna pretend we're not friends in real life. I'm gonna keep this really professional. JoJo, welcome to The Questlove Show.

• 4:01Speaker 03

  Amir, I can't believe.

• 4:02Speaker 00

  Hello, how are you today? How you doing?

• 4:04Speaker 03

  I am tickled to be here. Thank you for having me. I'm honestly honored.

• 4:09Speaker 00

  Thank you. I'm gonna try to keep this professional.

• 4:12Speaker 03

  Why?

• 4:13Speaker 00

  Well, okay.

• 4:15Speaker 03

  However you have, however you want to do it, I'm excited.

• 4:17Speaker 00

  You know, even though we've been doing this for, I guess you can say, this is 10 years now, in this particular format, I'm like shy of a year or a year plus. And so I'm still learning, still reading the comments, yes. I'm still learning how to navigate this as a solo artist. You know, I'm still on Off the Wall now. I haven't gotten to Thriller yet. So the thing is, is that since we first met and bonded at game night, I thought that I would do something a little bit different than I normally do. Like, I try to do it chronologically, but really, I want everyone out there to get your book and read it themselves.

• 5:00Speaker 00

  And I really, like, second to Mariah's book, like, her audiobook, like, for me to hear the story, to come from the person, makes all the difference in the world.

• 5:10Speaker 03

  When you told me that you were reading my book, I couldn't believe it. And the way in which you, you know, broke things down for me, you really paid attention. You gave me a whole new lease on life about this thing that I had done, that I just thought was kind of just in the ether.

• 5:25Speaker 00

  You just thought, like, eh, put a book out there and...

• 5:28Speaker 03

  No, I mean, I just, you never know. And so just thank you for that gift.

• 5:32Speaker 00

  I admire people with a journey and a story to tell. And so, and more than that, it's not only a journey, but I mean, you drop a lot of gems in there. You know, you're not shy about your shortcomings and...

• 5:46Speaker 03

  I've got a lot of them.

• 5:48Speaker 00

  Where you might have failed. So I mean, the human thing is happening. And plus, I think at the time, I was on my same journey of, if we want to call it the righteous path. And so, yeah, I really admired it. And it's weird for me to come in backwards. I had to start with a memoir and then work my way backwards to your music, whereas everyone got to know you first and did the opposite.

• 6:10Speaker 03

  Well, you were busy, so I get it.

• 6:12Speaker 00

  Yes, we were busy, but we're here now. So what I'm trying to do is I'm gonna ask you some rapid-fire questions that are mixed up, that probably haven't been asked before, because I also want to know, like, the human side of you. So I'm basically encouraging people out there to just read the memoir to get the soup-to-nuts story of your life. But yeah, there's a lot I want to ask you. So number one, what is your coffee order?

• 6:39Speaker 03

  My coffee order is an almond milk cappuccino. Simple, no sweetener, blah, blah, blah. I want a local coffee shop.

• 6:46Speaker 00

  Okay, you support mom and pops.

• 6:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's my preference.

• 6:49Speaker 00

  I got you. Okay. But sometimes when you're in the middle of nowhere and you're in the airport...

• 6:53Speaker 03

  Sometimes I'm at the airport, I will get a quartado. I think...

• 6:56Speaker 00

  Because sometimes?

• 6:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, a quartade's, and just like, just a little bit of, like, it's espresso with a little milk, I think, is kind of what it is.

• 7:03Speaker 00

  Quartado.

• 7:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, quartado.

• 7:04Speaker 00

  Okay. I think the reason why I'm shy...

• 7:07Speaker 03

  I'm insufferable.

• 7:08Speaker 00

  I'm not the coffee person that I should be, because it's just too intimidating to know all those flavors and whatnot and...

• 7:14Speaker 03

  It is.

• 7:15Speaker 00

  Mocholatos and babadatos.

• 7:17Speaker 03

  No, it's a lot of lattes.

• 7:18Speaker 00

  And there's no more small, medium, and...

• 7:21Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 7:22Speaker 00

  It's just really intimidating to me, so I just responded by not having a coffee preference, so.

• 7:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, and there's no reason you should. My first therapist said, "Don't should all over yourself."

• 7:33Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 7:34Speaker 03

  I'll leave you with that.

• 7:36Speaker 00

  Question number two. What is your greatest fear when you start a new project?

• 7:42Speaker 03

  I think we've talked a lot about this, just...

• 7:45Speaker 00

  We don't know each other.

• 7:46Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 7:47Speaker 00

  We're strangers.

• 7:48Speaker 03

  My greatest fear when starting a new project is that I won't be able to produce what, the feeling that I want to create.

• 7:56Speaker 00

  So what's inside here has a hard time...

• 7:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, that I won't be able to manifest that, because also, I am a communal creator. You know, I'm not a producer. I really enjoy the co-writing process, but I also love coming with my ideas and my lyrics and melodies and all that. But I worry that I won't be able to communicate what it is that is the desire of my heart, if that makes sense.

• 8:19Speaker 00

  Okay, I believe, based on how I've been following you post-pandemic and whatnot on social media, there's one thing I always wanted to know about. So I'm a communal person also, but ours is mostly the jam session onstage. Can you walk me through the process of a typical, like, writer's camp?

• 8:41Speaker 03

  Ooh.

• 8:41Speaker 00

  I've seen you do these things where you will gather with what looks to be like 20, maybe 25 people, maybe it's only 11 people.

• 8:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm like, never 25. That's expensive.

• 8:53Speaker 00

  It looks a lot.

• 8:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 8:55Speaker 00

  And like, is there a process where you just gather like three over here?

• 8:58Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 8:59Speaker 00

  All right, so walk me through that process.

• 9:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, so what you're speaking to is like a writer, a camp for a project. I've actually, I've been fortunate enough to be, like, called in to, when I was at a certain publishing company, they would like have their, they rented out a place in France, and they put all of us in a castle. It was crazy. They do these destination things where they'll pair off an artist, a co-writer, a producer. Three, I find to be a good number, and three or four sometimes. They'll, they'll put you in a room, you'll have a computer and interface and, you know, keyboard or a guitar or whatever, and you'll write that way. And it could start with me saying, "I have this idea for a hook," or "I have this concept,"

• 9:45Speaker 03

  or "I'd like to make a song that sounds like this, but with this type of percussive difference in the song," or whatever. Or sometimes we all go in and it's like, what are we listening to? What are we feeling? It could start from a conversation. And then oftentimes, if there isn't magic within the first hour or two, you go to the next idea. Because I'm sure you've read Rick Rubin's book, and I love it. You want to try to follow that. That magic and that impulse and things like that. So camps can go in different ways. I've done it for my album before. Recently, I got some of my favorite creatives in a room together. In Joshua Tree, that was about five of us. Theron nephew, Feimster, Tommy Parker, Nikki Flores,

• 10:29Speaker 03

  and David, who works with NEF. And we just stayed up all night and made things in different rooms. And I bopped around and we finished some ideas. And it can, it can happen like that. I don't know if that makes sense.

• 10:44Speaker 00

  No, no, I can see it.

• 10:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 10:46Speaker 00

  So when's the last time that, like, do you trust the process of just you and one creator?

• 10:54Speaker 03

  I like that a lot.

• 10:55Speaker 00

  Trying to see this through?

• 10:56Speaker 03

  It's my preference, actually. Sometimes I can get overwhelmed. I think the older I get, the more I'm better one on one. And the more I do trust myself and I trust my instincts. And that's been a long time of honing that, getting sensitive to that, that inner knowing. Yeah.

• 11:15Speaker 00

  How much of your soul do you want to expose to your collaborators? If, like, if songwriting is the cathartic healing process that songwriters say it is, like, there's gotta be a point where at least like the pre-talk is, where you talk about where your life has been. Like, okay, well, I got a divorce last year and I had to bury my animal or, you know, like whatever it is.

• 11:41Speaker 03

  Whatever you're going through.

• 11:42Speaker 00

  Is there even space for you to just lay out where you are in life so that the person knows what they're working with?

• 11:51Speaker 03

  I think it's cool, but I also think that using it as a therapy session is not always the most productive thing. It can kind of get in the way sometimes of what the actual objective is. Personally, I think that there's a time for therapy. And this is just how I feel right now. Maybe I'll feel different the next time we speak about this. But right now, I think that it can be a little self indulgent sometimes to go and dump, trauma dump in a session. And there's a time and a place for that. And I've done that so many times over the years. And then I end up writing songs that are about depression or about feeling like, I don't know who I am or I don't know. And you know what? I actually don't want to put that out in the world. That's actually not what I want my contribution to be right now. Do you know what I mean? I want to act as if, I want to project another truth within me,

• 12:35Speaker 03

  which is love and strength and resonance and empowerment and creativity and connection and all those things. So I think sometimes we need to come in, at least for me, and fortify or make a decision about like, what it is that we want to do. And we can get to the other stuff later. I think the after-session download is sometimes a good thing, too. But I like to be productive in a session. And then let's go have a debriefo for a glass of wine after.

• 13:03Speaker 00

  How long is it typically before you know, we got a song here?

• 13:10Speaker 03

  Ooh, I think that by the end of the session, if you've written and laid a first reference of that song, there's a song in, you know, that I'm working on in my new project that I knew that day. I was like, this is special. This is going to set the tone for this new project. But then it really is the opening it up to other people, too. Does it resonate in the way that it feels to the creatives? Because that is an important part of it. Otherwise, I'll just be making stuff for myself. But I want to connect. That's the desire of my heart, is to connect with other people, whether it's one on one or whether it's, you know,

• 13:51Speaker 03

  it's not that I want to pander or cater to what people think I should be doing, but I want it to resonate. So as I start opening it up to other people, is it eliciting a stank face? Is there a visceral reaction? Is there something that they walk away from it with? So that takes time to know.

• 14:08Speaker 00

  So Quincy Jones basically said that his number one rule when working on both Off the Wall and Thriller and Bad was, those three records, that if he doesn't get goosebumps at one point, he'll throw it in the lamp, like, it'll just go. Are you that person where like the song has to hit you somewhere in your chakra where it's like, huh? Or is it, no, because I know some people that are just, I know one songwriter is just a 20 minute person.

• 14:38Speaker 03

  I respect that, too.

• 14:39Speaker 00

  He overthinks it, then the magic's gone. So 20 minutes, it's like, I stop.

• 14:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:44Speaker 00

  And that's the song.

• 14:45Speaker 03

  Anything Quincy says is a yes for me. I'm listening and I want to, you know. But everybody's process is different, right? But, you know, I kneel at the altar of what Quincy does. I mean, so I am looking for some type of visceral reaction at this point in my life because I've done so much over the years that has not felt in alignment, not really felt true.

• 15:11Speaker 00

  Authentically you.

• 15:12Speaker 03

  And not really felt authentically me. And I'm not saying that it needs to be like, this is exactly where I am, blah, blah, blah. But it has to feel true. It has to feel like, and I'm not saying I've done that my whole career, but there's been pockets where I've compromised.

• 15:23Speaker 00

  So where you are right now, from one to 10, and I know this is like, you're relearning yourself, the adult version of you, and you breaking the chains of like the studio system and all those things that held you back before. So from one to 10, where do you feel you are on the number scale as far as like?

• 15:44Speaker 03

  Oh, God, a number scale?

• 15:46Speaker 00

  You know, 10 representing, you know, your absolute destination point of this is where I am now and planting my flag? Or is it still like, you're still trying to figure out like, what your favorite sound patches are? If I like singing slow songs or?

• 16:04Speaker 03

  I think I am in a process of discovery. I'm in a season of trying things on, but not in the same way that I was trying them on in my 20s. I think my 30s have really felt like such a gift for making it through my uncomfortable, weird, messy, dangerous 20s. Like even spiritually dangerous, you know what I mean? Not spiritually, but just like emotionally. Like, I was not a safe place for myself or others. And I feel like, and I write about that in the book.

• 16:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, no.

• 16:36Speaker 03

  I wasn't.

• 16:37Speaker 00

  Like, it's weird meeting you at the destination place. Like, I can't fathom what unstable Joanna is like.

• 16:45Speaker 03

  I mean, I was just like, I was just really good for like, just getting too drunk and just doing some weird shit. You know what I mean? I really was. So I think now.

• 16:54Speaker 00

  I mean, a time machine to see what you like at 28.

• 16:57Speaker 03

  I'm so glad we didn't know each other then. It wasn't, it wasn't the best. But I think that as far as my artistry, I really feel really close to being at a place that I want to like really stay at. And in being like, this is who I am and where I want to stay for quite a while. So I feel really close. I don't want to give it a number because seven is such a boring number. But I did, I did not say that. But no, I'm, I'm close. I'm close. And I, my intention with this, with a project that I'm making now is, it could be the last thing that I make, you know? And then I just go have some babies and go F off. But who knows? I could never really say goodbye.

• 17:41Speaker 04

  Hey, I'm Niall Rogers, producer, songwriter, guitarist, and co-founder of the group Sheik. A great song has a way of defining a moment, a moment of joy, heartbreak, or anything in between. This fall, I'll be driving across the country, dropping in on some of the coolest, most fascinating artists working today. We'll go deep into their lives and careers and hear what it was like before the moment that made them. From hitmakers like Miguel.

• 18:14Speaker 05

  That last year, finishing that record was the hardest experience of my life, regardless of how everyone else buys into this. I believe in this and I'm gonna push.

• 18:26Speaker 04

  To rising stars like Alex Warren.

• 18:29Speaker 00

  You know, a song is a story and the verse is setting the scene. And for me, at least, it's allowing me to be personal and vulnerable with the audience, whether it's about my wife and I'm being vulnerable about her or it's about, you know, my parents and I'm being vulnerable to them. And it's almost like a cinematic piece in a way where each song tells that beautiful story.

• 18:47Speaker 04

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• 19:32Speaker 00

  Great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for deals and details. Toyota, let's go places.

• 19:43Speaker 00

  What is the most air quote diva request on your hospitality rider?

• 19:50Speaker 03

  Okay, you guys asked me if I wanted snacks here and I thought it was like a cute thing because I thought you were like, I thought maybe you did that with your guests. You're like, what weird snacks do you get? So I asked for some weird snacks. I was like, could I have some crispy red grapes? Could I have a Diet Coke? Could I have an Evian? Could I have a charcuterie board? And y'all did it. Y'all did it. But I didn't, I really literally didn't need anything.

• 20:09Speaker 00

  Shit, it's my show and I didn't know that we could have a rider. What the fuck, Cousin Jake?

• 20:16Speaker 03

  Cousin Jake really took care of it.

• 20:17Speaker 00

  I thought you were just like sharing your water with me like, you want some water, Amir?

• 20:20Speaker 03

  I was like, damn.

• 20:21Speaker 00

  You need a charcuterie? God damn.

• 20:23Speaker 03

  You are so generous though, especially with your food offerings and everything. So I thought that that was a part of the thing. So anyway, my weirdest request is that I really do like, I do like really minerally water. So I ask for minerally water.

• 20:36Speaker 00

  Well, mostly I ask that because especially at the Tonight Show. I see the weirdest of riders when it comes to like serious singers.

• 20:46Speaker 03

  Oh, okay.

• 20:46Speaker 00

  I mean, I've seen people.

• 20:48Speaker 03

  What's the weirdest thing?

• 20:49Speaker 00

  One particular soul singer wanted onions, red onions, honey, garlic cloves. Like some people like.

• 21:01Speaker 03

  They made a.

• 21:01Speaker 00

  Shaka Khan's riders real like as far as like the.

• 21:05Speaker 03

  Right, well, she's like very connected to the earth, a little witchy. She's probably making potions and lotions and things. I love that.

• 21:13Speaker 00

  Like I feel like she's back there like.

• 21:16Speaker 03

  Yes. Shut up, what is your potion?

• 21:20Speaker 00

  Like a cauldron of.

• 21:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, 1 million percent.

• 21:23Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 21:24Speaker 03

  I just like some manuka honey. I'll just take some manuka honey.

• 21:26Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 21:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's very antimicrobial, healing. You can put it on your face after you wash up your makeup.

• 21:33Speaker 00

  I've seen that before. Tariq, when he's on stage, one of the funniest things I've ever seen in my life is, you know, he'll, because like his voice is his most important instrument. And, you know, he'll have like echinacea and like all these sprays and whatnot. But also there are sprays that are.

• 21:55Speaker 03

  Oh, no.

• 21:55Speaker 00

  Like deodorant sprays are also in the same bottle. So our hand sanitizer sprays.

• 22:00Speaker 03

  Has he made a.

• 22:00Speaker 00

  At one time. Our new tech person put the deodorant on stage and Tariq was like, oh shit, fuck. Like we stopped the show because we were laughing so hard.

• 22:12Speaker 03

  Can't really, it's hard to recover from.

• 22:13Speaker 00

  So that's when I became more, yeah, I became more aware of.

• 22:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, I, I travel with like a singer pouch though. So I have my, my things in it, like my vocal straws and like singer sprays.

• 22:26Speaker 00

  Vocal straws?

• 22:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, so we often like phonate through straws like.

• 22:34Speaker 03

  To kind of loosen up and you can warm up that way.

• 22:37Speaker 00

  Really?

• 22:37Speaker 03

  There's like a little straw that you can wear around your neck. It looks like a, like a Coke straw or something like someone has been like, oh, is that a party thing? I'm like, no, I'm a singer.

• 22:46Speaker 00

  I never knew this existed.

• 22:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, and you know.

• 22:52Speaker 03

  Just to kind of like, it's nice.

• 22:53Speaker 00

  Okay, again, this is all super random, so it's like non sequitur. What is the most beautiful video? This is a question I've never asked before to any artist.

• 23:05Speaker 03

  Oh, wow.

• 23:06Speaker 00

  What's the most beautiful video that you've ever seen? Music video.

• 23:11Speaker 03

  Oh, God. The way my memory is set up is not right. But I just want to call out something that I just recently saw that Jacob Collier did. And he's a dear friend and one of my favorite artists. And he did a video for this song that is also a meditation. And he's like float, it's a dream that many of us have had, just flying, you know? And he filmed it overseas and somehow they were able to like, maybe he was on a string or something. They, you know, got rid of the string. He's flying through the air.

• 23:45Speaker 00

  Flying?

• 23:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, and it's, it was really touching because I've, I had a re, you know, reoccurring dream. I can't, I hope to have this dream again of flying.

• 23:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, what is your reoccurring theme in all, in your dreams?

• 23:58Speaker 03

  Lately, it's been deep and I've been like bringing, bringing it to my therapist and been like, what's the tea here? What's going on?

• 24:06Speaker 00

  What's the object that's always in your dream?

• 24:08Speaker 03

  Sharks lately, I've had sharks. And you know what it is?

• 24:12Speaker 00

  Are you a mermaid?

• 24:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm a mermaid. I identify as a mermaid.

• 24:16Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 24:17Speaker 03

  No, I think that the past couple of dreams have been deep ocean and fear of what's underneath. So that's clearly my subconscious being like, come hither, come get to know me more. Or else you're going to be afraid of your, you know, sea creatures coming and getting you or whatever. So I can't say that I have like a, I used to have dreams of mummies. Like coming up from the, you know, depths and, and coming after me and stuff. And most recently I had a zombie dream, which is similar. So I don't know what's going on.

• 24:51Speaker 00

  Wow, your dreams are cool. Like my dreams are dumb, like.

• 24:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, right.

• 24:55Speaker 00

  Until 35, I was always about to fail chemistry class.

• 25:02Speaker 03

  Really?

• 25:03Speaker 00

  The way, way past graduation, I would wake up. Of like.

• 25:07Speaker 03

  That's a horrible feeling.

• 25:08Speaker 00

  A final, and I'm like, Amir, you're 32 years old, like you're out of high school. But in my dream for the longest, I was always about to fail a class or something.

• 25:18Speaker 03

  I was about to not graduate in my dream for a very long time because that was like reality. Cause I was homeschooled when I was on the road for a long time. So through my twenties, I would wake up in a panic and be like, you're not going to graduate. And it was really scary. Like I, I just was, you know, not turning something in or.

• 25:35Speaker 00

  Right.

• 25:35Speaker 03

  So.

• 25:36Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 25:36Speaker 03

  I feel that.

• 25:37Speaker 00

  What irrational fear routinely scares you to this day? The part two of that is also what actual fear? There's an irrational fear like you dying by Jell-O or.

• 25:54Speaker 00

  I mean, just like a childhood fear that you've, you know, people imagine monsters or, you know, a fear of sliding boards. I had a manager who's definitely afraid of shellacked popsicle sticks.

• 26:07Speaker 03

  Huh?

• 26:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, like to the point where I offered her $5,000 cash just to hold shellacked popsicle sticks and she couldn't do it. And this is my DJ manager. I mean, you've never seen the clips on Mari Povich with the woman's afraid of pickles?

• 26:23Speaker 03

  What?

• 26:25Speaker 00

  You've never seen this?

• 26:25Speaker 03

  No.

• 26:26Speaker 00

  Wait a minute, you're of millennial YouTube age.

• 26:30Speaker 03

  Yes, scared of pickles? No, I've seen My Strange Addiction where she's like eating the couch and stuff, but that's.

• 26:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, that's dark. Yes, I remember that. But if you Google Mari and they do it just like Jaws, like.

• 26:43Speaker 00

  Camera number four is like, dude, dude, like holding the thing. And she sees it coming and she runs out in the streets. And then the camera starts chasing her in the streets with the pickles. And yeah.

• 26:55Speaker 03

  That, that, that wouldn't fly today. That's unkind.

• 26:57Speaker 00

  Google, yeah, yeah. But like what, is there a fear that you have that's a little?

• 27:06Speaker 03

  That's irrational.

• 27:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:08Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was like, you know what? This is not, I mean, it could happen and it's scary, but of getting a paper cut in my, on my eyeball. Like it's unlikely.

• 27:19Speaker 00

  I always fantasize about paper cuts.

• 27:21Speaker 03

  Really?

• 27:22Speaker 00

  Not fa, well, when you think of something a lot, that's also fantasizing.

• 27:26Speaker 03

  True, I guess.

• 27:27Speaker 00

  I fit, I, I often dream of like shards of glass. I hate walking barefoot in my kitchen because I always imagine that shards of glass are going to cut me.

• 27:37Speaker 03

  Okay, so it's that little cut similar.

• 27:40Speaker 00

  But for you, it's.

• 27:41Speaker 03

  It's a paper cut in the eyeball. That's, ooh.

• 27:46Speaker 00

  I feel that.

• 27:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly. So that's kind of irrational because it's just like how that happened, but I can feel it right now. I could just feel like.

• 27:52Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, I'm, I'd feel it with you. What's your real fear?

• 27:56Speaker 03

  I'm afraid of Dobermans. They're beautiful, but I was bit in the face by one. My nana's Doberman. And I see them on the street and I'm like, that's a beautiful bitch, but oh my God, like.

• 28:07Speaker 00

  I was about to say, I think you're, you're, you're a dog mom.

• 28:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm a dog mom, but she ain't a Doberman. She's, she's a mutt, she's a rescue and yeah, Dobermans are scary to me. You know, sharks, deep ocean.

• 28:22Speaker 00

  This is a Boston thing? Like, how much of your life is spent in the ocean?

• 28:26Speaker 03

  Not, not much these days. Like, I'm, I would be afraid to like be on a big boat and, you know, say you're, you're in the middle of the, a nice ocean somewhere and your anchors down and people, they go, "Do you want to go snorkeling or whatever?" Like, I will go, but I'm terrified the whole time. You know, so trying to face those fears, but...

• 28:47Speaker 00

  This previous weekend, I just visited Martha's Vineyard.

• 28:50Speaker 03

  Oh, that's right.

• 28:51Speaker 00

  Where they shot Jaws. And also went to the inkwell as well. So it was like my first time seeing, it's way smaller than I thought it was. Like, in my mind, beaches are like the sprawling thing, like Jersey beaches are at least.

• 29:03Speaker 03

  Massachusetts beaches are...

• 29:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's like a little bit of sand and then just water and...

• 29:08Speaker 03

  Did you like it?

• 29:09Speaker 00

  It was the most surreal experience I've ever, it was like walking in the Twilight Zone.

• 29:14Speaker 03

  Really?

• 29:14Speaker 00

  Everybody was so nice to me and like, no, but in a, in a weird, like I'm running for president way.

• 29:21Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 29:22Speaker 00

  Everyone was really nice to me and like a very...

• 29:24Speaker 03

  It felt like The Truman Show or something?

• 29:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, or like The Stepford Housewives, like it's welcome. But it was like every other person, like I just had to ease my way down there, so it was...

• 29:35Speaker 03

  I mean, people do regard you as like the mayor wherever you go, I think.

• 29:38Speaker 00

  Not, no, this ways...

• 29:40Speaker 03

  It felt, it felt strange.

• 29:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:42Speaker 03

  I just went to Nantucket for the first time. Nantucket and Martha's Vineyard are like two sides of the same coin. Or, or maybe not, people, people would probably disagree with that.

• 29:49Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 29:50Speaker 03

  But me, growing up in Massachusetts, these were places that were aspirational to me because it was, you know, it's expensive to go there. So I just went for the first time.

• 29:58Speaker 00

  One of the reasons why I champion your audiobook so much is your ability to blend in and out of character.

• 30:07Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 30:08Speaker 00

  And you did a, a Boston accent that was kind of like Lois Griffin of Family Guy meets...

• 30:16Speaker 03

  Oh, my god.

• 30:17Speaker 00

  Mayor Quimby of The Simpsons, like it's...

• 30:20Speaker 03

  I want to use it so bad, please cast me in something where I can be a Boston girl.

• 30:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, I was gonna say, did you ever have, like, you have an amazing speaking voice, especially for your, your book. I believe that certain people have a channel place where when they speak, depending on where their chakra is, like it's effective. Have you ever considered like voice acting work?

• 30:41Speaker 03

  Oh, totally, yes.

• 30:43Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 30:43Speaker 03

  WME be sending the auditions my way and I slang them out and I'm, you know, I, I really would love to do voice acting work. It's fun, it's fun, but particularly, I have such an affinity toward the Boston accent. And I lost it at a young age because moved to LA for a few months for like pilot season when I was 11 and the kids teased me so bad on, that first day of school at, you know, in La Habra Heights, I think is the place where we were, near like Whittier. I was living there and I said, "Uh, excuse me, where's the bubbla?" And they didn't know what that meant. It was another language to them, so it meant, "Where's the water fountain?"

• 31:23Speaker 00

  The bubbla?

• 31:24Speaker 03

  "Excuse me, where's the bubbla?" And I was like, and as the whole class erupted in laughter, I'm like, "Fuck these kids, I'm never, I'm gonna lose my accent." And I did, I guess, you know?

• 31:34Speaker 00

  How did you do that?

• 31:35Speaker 03

  I don't know, I...

• 31:36Speaker 00

  Oh, this is self-imposed? It wasn't a coach?

• 31:38Speaker 03

  No, it wasn't a coach. I think that over the years, I just listened to the way other people spoke and then I tried to speak more like that. Also, I could go in and out of it, you know?

• 31:49Speaker 00

  So come Thanksgiving or Christmas, whatever event that causes you to hang with family members?

• 31:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 31:57Speaker 00

  Or go to Boston?

• 31:58Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 31:58Speaker 00

  Does it sneak in?

• 31:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, it does sneak in, especially...

• 32:00Speaker 00

  So you do code switch?

• 32:01Speaker 03

  I do code switch, yeah. When I'm around my Uncle Dale, it's, you know, he's, he sounds like he's speaking another language, you know, like another, you know, another language, blah, blah, blah, and it's, there's a lot of...

• 32:11Speaker 00

  That's how you talk?

• 32:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think so. And there's a lot of, and a, and a blah, blah, blah. It's interesting though, because the next generation, I think my generation might be the last to actually have regional accents, because I listened to my cousins who are, the closest one in age to me is like maybe nine years younger.

• 32:29Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 32:29Speaker 03

  They don't have the regional Boston accent anymore, anymore. They, it's, um, I think it's because of the internet. And, you know, the interconnectedness of all things. But I find that really interesting from a anthropological standpoint of like, how did it become this way?

• 32:46Speaker 00

  We, we're losing cursive.

• 32:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:48Speaker 00

  Apparently we're losing reading as well, so...

• 32:51Speaker 03

  No. Anyway, I'm not saying, I'm not like, I'm not saying it's a good or bad thing that we're losing a regional accent, I just think it's really interesting, you know?

• 32:58Speaker 00

  I think a lot of the things that we held near and dear might fade into the past. I had a question once, you know, because people are always coming to me and talking about, which kind of sort of taps into a post that you made about singing. I too have had thoughts and the one thing that I've always wondered, I think the key component to the soul music that hits our soul is unfortunately, I believe that there has to be a level of trauma that the singer has to go through

• 33:38Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 33:39Speaker 00

  that shapes that voice. I mean, it's, or, or maybe it's not.

• 33:44Speaker 03

  I mean, you, you would know, and so I, I think you're...

• 33:48Speaker 00

  Well, I, I think for the most part, like, okay, when, when I was teaching about James Brown in school, one of the students asked like, "Does he always have to scream so much?" Like, to another generation, the screaming almost came off as humorous. And I had to explain to them that like, for every time I hear James Brown scream, that's some sort of anger that would have come out on another person. But this is his release, his pressure valve release.

• 34:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:20Speaker 00

  That screaming. The pain that you hear of Retha Franklin and that, that beautiful pain. A lot of this generation doesn't have that, which is a great thing. But this also might mean that that level of soul singing might also be in our past. I mean, unless it's also, you know, but as far as vocal terms, okay. Last night I saw Baby Rose perform and, yo, she sounds like, in, in the most respectful, greatest way ever, like I, her voice is, it's like 100 years old. It's so haunting, it's hauntingly beautiful.

• 35:01Speaker 03

  I wish I got to see that.

• 35:03Speaker 00

  And then when the song's over, "What's up, y'all, how y'all doing?" It's like, wait a minute, what the hell?

• 35:07Speaker 03

  The contrast.

• 35:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:08Speaker 03

  "From day she grows up..."

• 35:11Speaker 00

  Like, I hear like all of her ancestors just inside. It's, it's one of the most haunting things ever. Speaking of which, number six, have you ever had to ghost someone?

• 35:23Speaker 03

  Have I had to ghost someone? I probably didn't have to do it, but I did it.

• 35:27Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 35:27Speaker 03

  I'm not proud of it, but I keep it moving. I really do, I really do. I've done it.

• 35:34Speaker 00

  Ghost is such a harsh term, but like, how do you spring clean? How do you spring clean to protect your space? You don't have to get specific, but...

• 35:44Speaker 03

  Hmm, maybe I will. Um, no, I don't know.

• 35:47Speaker 00

  I was like...

• 35:49Speaker 03

  How do I, how do you protect my space? I mean, sometimes, I'm not proud of this, but I definitely have done a slow fade, you know, in, in friendships or professional relationships or whatever. But I try to be really communicative up until the point where it's just clear that it's not, um, gonna be fruitful for us to be in relationship anymore. And I don't even mean romantically, because romantically, I, I am, I think I'm a good communicator. But with, with other things, what, what are you thinking?

• 36:19Speaker 00

  I think romantic relationships are the easiest to end.

• 36:22Speaker 03

  I think so too.

• 36:23Speaker 00

  But it's, and even as I asked you that question, I'm like, where for you to ask that question when you yourself are actively ghosting maybe four people that you haven't told? I mean, for me, it's easy because like, "Oh, man, I'm so busy right now," or, you know, that sort of thing. But, you know, I'm learning how to properly confront someone without, I'm literally reading a book on how to get your truth out without being rude or...

• 36:54Speaker 03

  What book is that?

• 36:56Speaker 00

  I don't even know, I literally got this two days ago.

• 36:58Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 36:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:59Speaker 03

  A follow-up.

• 37:00Speaker 00

  This is how, well, I share all my books with you, so...

• 37:03Speaker 03

  I'm, I'm listening to...

• 37:03Speaker 00

  But we're not friends.

• 37:04Speaker 03

  But we're not friends. I'm listening to The Big Leap that you didn't send me, but, um...

• 37:09Speaker 00

  Wait, are you serious?

• 37:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 37:10Speaker 00

  When you said I didn't, I was shocked, because I could have sworn...

• 37:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, you hadn't sent it, you hadn't sent it, and then we talked about it. And then you did send it, because Brianna brought it back up to me.

• 37:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:20Speaker 03

  But anyway.

• 37:21Speaker 00

  Shout out to Brianna Weest.

• 37:22Speaker 03

  Yes, our, our girl.

• 37:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:24Speaker 03

  The, the slow fade, the ghost is a product of our, the time that we live in and, you know, us not being as confrontational and wanting people to like us or wanting to keep a door open, things like that. And I do want to be on good terms with, with all people and stuff. But sometimes I, I want to also acknowledge that people are going through their process in their time and I need to be protective of myself. I have done that with certain family members. I've never been able to do the full cutoff, the tough love, blah, blah, blah. I, I've tried to do that, I tried to do that with my father, you know? And I'm glad that I didn't do that to the extent that some people are encouraged to do that.

• 38:08Speaker 03

  Every case is different. But, you know, it'll be 10 years since my dad passed and I'm, I'm grateful that I continue to have a, a relationship of, of some kind. You know what I mean?

• 38:17Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 38:17Speaker 03

  So that, that's how I feel.

• 38:19Speaker 00

  Okay, your bed, are you... Hey, well, wait, let me ask the question first. Your bed, JoJo, are you a out of bed immediately and on to your day? Or are you a must-have bed made before my day starts person?

• 38:36Speaker 03

  Um, I like to make the bed. Like, after I do my things, like drink my glass of water, brush my teeth, you know, walk agape, do things, like take a shower, I'll make my bed before I go. But I don't have a particular order of operations, but I'm...

• 38:55Speaker 00

  Why no OCD people that cannot?

• 38:57Speaker 03

  I'm not OCD.

• 38:58Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 38:58Speaker 03

  I, I like things nice. I like to do things in a certain way that makes me feel nice, but I, I have flexibility. I do snooze a bit. My current ringtone is Carry On by Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young. So I wake up to

• 39:12Speaker 03

  and I'm like, "Uh, this morning, I woke up and I knew..." It's so jarring.

• 39:18Speaker 00

  That's your wake-up song?

• 39:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, but it's so jarring, but I'm like, "Woo, let's carry on."

• 39:24Speaker 00

  So you immediately, and you're not a, you're not a snoozer as-

• 39:28Speaker 03

  I am, I am a snoozer. I, I heard this song three times this morning.

• 39:32Speaker 00

  Okay, so when you set, when you set your alarm, how much time do you do? Like, when I want to get up at eight, I'll set it at seven seventeen?

• 39:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:43Speaker 00

  Are you, are you that person?

• 39:45Speaker 03

  I give myself like eight minute increments.

• 39:47Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 39:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:49Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 39:49Speaker 03

  Torturous to some, but I like it.

• 39:51Speaker 00

  So this is something I just learned. I'm now, I've been doing this all year.

• 39:58Speaker 00

  I actually now set my alarm ninety minutes before the time I did want to get up. So say if I have to get up at eight, I will set my alarm for six thirty. Only because of that bewildered sleepy state. That is literally, that's your twelve minute window to say the affirmation that you want to happen for your life against everything. And I'm a person that does not want to get out of bed, well, make, you know, another five minutes, another five minutes, another five minutes, another five minutes. But now it's like, the conscious thing of like, I want to write a good song today. That's not the way. It's literally the, you're supposed to do it like when you're dead tired

• 40:42Speaker 00

  and you want to go to sleep, if you can force yourself ten more minutes past that,

• 40:48Speaker 00

  that is when your brain implements your thing in emotion. So it's, it's a thing where you have to force this, but I promise you, the first time you press news, just say the key affirmation. And you can say it in a sentence, like it doesn't have to be a long thing of five minutes or whatever.

• 41:05Speaker 03

  Wow, that's a gem.

• 41:13Speaker 04

  Hey, I'm Nile Rodgers, producer, songwriter, guitarist, and co-founder of the group Chic. A great song has a way of defining a moment, a moment of joy, heartbreak, or anything in between.

• 41:29Speaker 04

  This fall, I'll be driving across the country, dropping in on some of the coolest, most fascinating artists working today. We'll go deep into their lives and careers and hear what it was like before the moment that made them. From hit makers like Miguel-

• 41:46Speaker 05

  That last year, finishing that record was the hardest experience of my life. Regardless of how everyone else buys into this, I believe in this and I'm gonna push.

• 41:58Speaker 04

  To rising stars like Alex Warren.

• 42:01Speaker 06

  You know, a song is a story and the verse is setting the scene. And for me at least, it's allowing me to be personal and vulnerable with the audience. Whether it's about my wife and I'm being vulnerable about her, or it's about, you know, my parents, I'm being vulnerable to them. And it's almost like a cinematic piece in a way where each song tells that beautiful story.

• 42:19Speaker 04

  It's gonna be one hell of a trip. Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln Original Series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 42:31Speaker 03

  This is Shirley Strawberry from the Steve Harvey Morning Show. Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it starts with a great deal on an all-wheel drive Camry, Corolla Cross, or a Corolla sedan with the latest features and tech. Or test drive a spacious Grand Highlander or adventure-ready RAV4. And with so many hybrid models available, you can enjoy longer trips without all the stops. While Toyota's legendary resale value means you could get more at trade-in, get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for deals and details. Toyota, let's go places.

• 43:18Speaker 00

  How do you handle creative blocks?

• 43:22Speaker 03

  I'm still trying to figure it out. How do I handle creative blocks? I, right now, I'm going back to the Rick Rubin book. I'm, I'm going to his, is it called The Creative Process or something? And I'm reading it, rereading it, highlighting things, highlighting new things, and interfacing with that wisdom and-

• 43:41Speaker 00

  Is there a time period at which you just-

• 43:44Speaker 03

  I step away.

• 43:44Speaker 00

  Allow nothing?

• 43:45Speaker 03

  Absolutely, yes. I mean, I haven't written for the past couple of months. How do I feel about that? Concerned during the time? But I try to just live, just go, just absorb, be, you know? Get a life, right. Get a life. I was like, I was in such a rush for so long to, to be grown, to arrive, to create success, to, you know, recreate the early success. And, you know, letting that go is such a practice. But even of just trying to, to make a good thing, you know? So yeah, get a life. That's, that's a really succinct, great way of putting it.

• 44:26Speaker 00

  There you go. Number ten, have you ever stolen something?

• 44:32Speaker 03

  Am I a klepto? Is that what, that's what it is, right? Klepto. Have I ever stolen anything? Not that I know of.

• 44:39Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 44:40Speaker 03

  Not that I know of. Like, I don't have that in me where I like, where I want to get away with stealing something.

• 44:45Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 44:45Speaker 03

  I, like, that scares me, actually. I don't want to get in trouble. I don't want to steal something from a hotel. I don't want to steal-

• 44:51Speaker 00

  Not even the hotels? Not a robe? Not a robe?

• 44:55Speaker 03

  I've thought about it, but I haven't done it.

• 44:56Speaker 00

  Hotels?

• 44:57Speaker 03

  What, pillows?

• 44:58Speaker 00

  Oh, this is so bourgeois, me. You know what I love more than anything on this earth? Okay, so-

• 45:03Speaker 03

  At the fancy places where they put your initials in the thing or something? You can take those, right?

• 45:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, I was like, I've, I've been at a few places where they put it on your pillow, whatever.

• 45:12Speaker 03

  What do you, what do you steal?

• 45:14Speaker 00

  Okay, so I think I just started noticing at the caliber hotels I stay at, maybe the last two or three years, I didn't realize that they have these like, these mist bottles that they spray on your bed to give it that downy, fresh feeling.

• 45:32Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 45:33Speaker 00

  And one day I walked past the housekeeper cart and I just saw a whole box of them. Both of my things are cart related, so yes. Four seasons, I'm sorry, I took two boxes of rose, of rose spray mist. Cause I, I wanted my home bed to smell like this particular spot that I was in in Hawaii, where it just smelled misty and whatnot. And the other thing is-

• 46:00Speaker 03

  I get misty.

• 46:01Speaker 00

  I might have, uh, if you're a Delta flyer, you know what I'm talking about. Dog, Biscoff cookies are a problem.

• 46:11Speaker 03

  Come on, crumble those, crumble those drums up. Put it on with some yogurt.

• 46:15Speaker 00

  Yo, yo.

• 46:16Speaker 03

  Good morning.

• 46:18Speaker 00

  So there was two chunky box supplies of Biscoff cookies in the overhead next to my bag. And man, just literally when I opened it-

• 46:30Speaker 03

  Needed those. No regard, no regard.

• 46:33Speaker 00

  I'll even go further, that a girl that was like really sweet on at the time loved those cookies. And I just, I had to make a move. I just-

• 46:42Speaker 03

  Girls love the Biscoff cookies.

• 46:44Speaker 00

  Yes. Oh, man, the way that I was like, these are for you.

• 46:47Speaker 03

  That's very sweet. How'd you get these? I stole them.

• 46:49Speaker 00

  No, I was like, I have a friend at Delta, so, yeah. What is the best compliment that you've ever received from a fellow peer?

• 47:01Speaker 03

  The thing that comes to mind is when I'm doing theater, where I get to act and sing and embody someone new. Cause now I've done Moulin Rouge, I originated something, Cyndi Lauper's new musical based on the movie Working Girl. I've done some other workshops and things like that. The biggest compliment is when someone who I really respect, their artistry, has said, you know, I forgot it was you, you know? And you, you weren't singing like you're, like who I think JoJo is. You weren't acting like who I think you are. I really got to get lost in that. That's, that's a real compliment to me because I don't want to be self-indulgent always with

• 47:43Speaker 03

  the runs or with things or like with doing, you know, I-

• 47:48Speaker 00

  What we expect you to do?

• 47:49Speaker 03

  I want to embody, like, that's my desire, to get lost. I want to get, get lost, you know?

• 47:53Speaker 00

  Okay, so now I feel like I can ask, you gave me an opening, I gotta ask you this question. Okay, so of course, because your life, your life journey has so many like specific pivots and leads you in directions that you probably didn't dream of when you were eight or nine or whatever.

• 48:11Speaker 03

  Right.

• 48:12Speaker 00

  But the reason why I was excited to see you participate in the chess play.

• 48:20Speaker 03

  Amir?

• 48:21Speaker 00

  The reason why I was excited to see you participate in it is because-

• 48:28Speaker 00

  The insane, and I don't mean acrobatic, like performative acrobatic, where like, you know, everybody that we've seen on Showtime at the Apollo do it, and I'm telling you, I'm not going, like, or, you know what I mean?

• 48:43Speaker 03

  And I am telling you. Yes.

• 48:46Speaker 00

  Right.

• 48:46Speaker 03

  I'm not going, which, woo, yes.

• 48:50Speaker 00

  Yes, so, but there is a very intricate, I mean, almost jazz level intellect of difficulty that every song in the chess play, it's literally to me, like, if you conquer that, like seeing Lea Michele conquer that, I had no, I had no expectations whatsoever. One, I didn't know about the history of, of the play chess, which was created by two members of ABBA.

• 49:22Speaker 03

  ABBA and Tim Rice.

• 49:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, and so for me, I was disappointed when the play dissolved before you got a chance to get behind it, but I do want to know, like, how deep into training camp did you get in learning those songs? Because even I feel like practicing one of those songs will improve your artistry.

• 49:44Speaker 03

  Yes, that's what I was most excited for. So to give some context, Chess was a musical that was on Broadway and it was starring Lea Michele and Aaron Tivat and Nicholas Christopher, and like you said, written by two of the guys from ABBA and Tim Rice. The music is astounding.

• 49:59Speaker 00

  Dude.

• 49:59Speaker 03

  And we got to go see this together. And I was like, watching the show and looking over at you, I'm like, am I tripping? This is sick, right? Like, this music is so sick.

• 50:11Speaker 00

  Wait, that was the first time you?

• 50:13Speaker 03

  I had never seen the show. I had heard of, I had been studying and shedding and listening and stuff. I had not seen it.

• 50:17Speaker 00

  We were experiencing that for the first time?

• 50:19Speaker 03

  Yes, yes.

• 50:20Speaker 00

  Were you intimidated at any point?

• 50:22Speaker 03

  Of course, the whole time. But that's what I was, that's what I was excited about. So to answer your question, I, I was already off book by the time, you know, I, I had learned all the songs and I was off book even in the script. I, I deep dived into it. I was gonna take over for Lea Michele while she was out for the summer. And the role is, is beautiful, the songs are amazing, and you, you spoke to like a jazz level of, of difficulty, but it's like classical to, to me. I think they're, they're related, but.

• 50:54Speaker 00

  The one thing that this play didn't have, there was no Broadway jazz hands in it.

• 51:01Speaker 03

  No.

• 51:01Speaker 00

  It was none of that, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, or, or I guess now that version would be like post-Webber, uh, Rint level, where every song is da, da, like Frozen level, like it was, it was not Broadway at all. And barely like melody, like you just had to, I had to catch up with you wherever you sang.

• 51:24Speaker 03

  It's so precise.

• 51:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:26Speaker 03

  Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun. Really sick, really amazing stuff. Da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da. I enjoyed so much learning this material and really abandoning thoughts of, you know, what I thought would like be showy or whatever, like, it, I just, like, like.

• 51:49Speaker 00

  I don't think it even allows you this space to flex as a vocalist, like.

• 51:53Speaker 03

  There are some moments, there are some moments where you can. And what's cool about this musical is that there are many different versions, like the history of the musical was interesting, too. I think it was done for the first time in the eighties and, you know, I got to hear the, the versions from the eighties. I got to hear when Josh Groban and, um, Idina Menzel and some other people did it in, in London for like a stage, just a reading kind of, not a reading, but anyway. So there were different interpretations of it, and like you said, it really did allow me to expand my, my instrument and my artistry just by having proximity to it, just by.

• 52:32Speaker 00

  Even going to the gym, I feel like you're a better singer for it. Yeah, it has to come back, and if it does come back and you're part of that, like, I'll be the front row and center because it's.

• 52:44Speaker 03

  You know, what was hilarious also is that you were texting me as I was preparing for it, you're like, are you nervous? Because I'm nervous for you. I'm like, Amir, do you not think that I can do this? What's going on? Then I started getting in my own head.

• 52:56Speaker 00

  Oh, I did that to you? I'm sorry.

• 52:58Speaker 03

  I'm kidding, I wasn't really in my own head. I was just like, he cares, that's really nice. But you were like, are you sleeping? Are you falling asleep listening to it? Are you programming your subconscious? I was like, I am.

• 53:08Speaker 00

  I literally would wake up some random nights and just hit you like, how are you doing with preparation? Because I thought I could take in music like a sponge and dictate it back verbatim, but yeah, anyone that conquers that, they have all my respect. All right, I have a question about one of your songs, or lack thereof, Sugar and Carbs.

• 53:31Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 53:32Speaker 00

  Is it purposely 21 seconds?

• 53:35Speaker 03

  It's just a little interlude.

• 53:37Speaker 00

  But.

• 53:38Speaker 03

  I should have written the whole song.

• 53:39Speaker 00

  Okay, so there's, there's a part of our friendship that I've not really dived into, and I haven't gone heavy on, we barely talk about our craft with each other. I mean, we'll talk about mu- music or whatever, that sort of thing, but I really wanted to wait for this platform to ask you these questions. See, I thought that you left it at 21 seconds, almost, because what I believe this 21 second interlude to be is sort of your potent assessment of how toxic the music industry is as far as their treatment and expectations of, of how they want women to look and represent themselves.

• 54:23Speaker 00

  And I was like, wow, okay, there's, there must be a reason why this is exactly 21 seconds. So I thought it was like some sort of, I'm an adult.

• 54:31Speaker 03

  Wow, you think I'm deeper than I am. It was literally, I am so literal sometimes.

• 54:37Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 54:38Speaker 03

  Sugar and carbs is literally, you know, you, you're speaking to a project, like an EP that I put out called Try Not to Think About It, which was, I was in a blue space. I was, I was depressed at the time, and the way that I like to self-soothe is through food, historically, many different ways, though. I don't really have a, I can be addicted to, to different things, a moment, a person of, you know, eating, blah, blah, blah. So I've experimented with all different things. Sugar and carbs was just like, this is my comfort right now. And it, it was literally that.

• 55:09Speaker 00

  I really thought it was commentary on how toxic the industry is.

• 55:13Speaker 03

  But I love that, that's where your mind went.

• 55:15Speaker 00

  Oh, man, I was reading so much into.

• 55:17Speaker 03

  It really wasn't. It was just like, I am so uncomfortable in where I am right now, and basically it's 21 seconds because I want to go get a no, another snack. And to go get another almond croissant to just nibble on.

• 55:33Speaker 00

  People often get joy of knocking my fantasy Jenga down of like, how they took all night to craft this thing, and I'll admit, I spent at least 20 minutes just trying to analyze your brain on.

• 55:48Speaker 03

  Wow, I appreciate that so much. I just wanted an interlude, you know, and I hadn't, hadn't made one yet.

• 55:55Speaker 00

  I forgot the literal, just to let it be what it is. Okay, that's cool.

• 55:58Speaker 03

  It's just what it was. That's where I was at, at the time.

• 56:01Speaker 00

  Drake is the type of artist that will make, uh, those that participate, uh, in, you know, the, the mixtape game, or, you know, now we just release singles and whatnot.

• 56:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, all different ways.

• 56:15Speaker 00

  Your, um, interpretation of Marvin's Room. First, did 40 or Drake ever reach out to you?

• 56:23Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 56:24Speaker 00

  Giving you notes on your version of, of that, or?

• 56:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, Drake DM'd me and said really nice things.

• 56:30Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 56:31Speaker 03

  When I released that, and that was so long ago now, which is really wild what time does and just how it keeps going.

• 56:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, 2010, 2011 to me is still like, five years ago.

• 56:45Speaker 03

  I know.

• 56:45Speaker 00

  Four years ago, right?

• 56:46Speaker 03

  So then after that, though, I worked with 40 on, um, because the label that I was signed to initially was doing a deal, they were gonna redo Aaliyah's unreleased, they were gonna work with some for unreleased material, Drake and 40 and stuff. So I, as a, like, another part of that, I was gonna be working with 40. And so I did a song called Demonstrate, went up to Toronto and did some stuff with, with him, and I was so nervous, had such imposter syndrome, but this was after I did Marvin's Room, after I had already kind of accepted, okay, people know that I'm not 13 or 15 or 16 anymore. I was like 19 or 20 or 21.

• 57:24Speaker 00

  Right.

• 57:25Speaker 03

  And, um, but I was still like, how do I, how do I be? Yeah, how do I make a statement?

• 57:31Speaker 00

  So you wanted to make a.

• 57:32Speaker 03

  So I was like, sex.

• 57:33Speaker 00

  This was your thing where it's like, like, I wanna, I'm an adult.

• 57:38Speaker 03

  I'm an adult, yeah, yeah. Yeah, Marvin's Room really was kind of like a turning point for me. It was a pivot point.

• 57:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:45Speaker 03

  In my artistry of being like, I curse and I'm out here having sex and I'm, you know, a bad girl. That's like kind of what I was feeling at the time.

• 57:53Speaker 00

  The response to it, like, what was it for, for you in your circle, but also like, from the comments?

• 58:01Speaker 03

  I think in my circle, they were like, yeah, this is who you, this is like who you are, you're out, out here. And so they were like, that's cool that it's, that's reflected, it's a little, there's some edge and darkness in it, and it got a crazy amount of traction. It's not reflected in the, the views, if you look on YouTube now, but it was taken down to like 100 million, and it was a, a lot of attention toward it. So that was really cool that, um, people were accepting something from me that was less, like, I looked at a record like Leave, Get Out, which was my first single, I looked at that as kind of bubblegummy, and so I was like, oh, I can do some like, you know, dark stuff, and that's cool, it's fine.

• 58:44Speaker 03

  I was definitely in a place of like, oh, looking for acceptance, oh, people will accept this from me, that's good.

• 58:49Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 58:49Speaker 03

  Do, do you know what I mean? So it was, it was a pivot point.

• 58:52Speaker 00

  Did you have trepidation at first, like, uh, will I?

• 58:54Speaker 03

  No, because my, my manager at the time was in alignment with me, and we, we were like, so the fact that I had her approval, I was like, let's do this, let's just go ahead and do it. And it was a great exercise for me as a writer, too, because I took his song, his melody, and I wrote a response to it. So that was something that I learned and became a part of my process.

• 59:14Speaker 00

  Unlike everyone else, like, the fact that you, essentially the person on the other line to whom he was talking to, like, you're.

• 59:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 59:22Speaker 00

  And there's a twist on it, so.

• 59:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was, it was a cool exercise and something that I still continue to do to this day, and something that I had done before the Marvin's Room thing, I did, I wrote to like, a T-Pain song, a Sean Kingston song, I would write female responses because it was inspiring. I'm like, well, what?

• 59:36Speaker 00

  Wait, you did an answer to Beautiful Girls or something?

• 59:38Speaker 03

  I did, it's, it's on the internet.

• 59:40Speaker 00

  I, wait, how did I miss that?

• 59:42Speaker 03

  I'm glad you missed it, it wasn't that great.

• 59:43Speaker 00

  Oh, I'm gonna check, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna search for that.

• 59:46Speaker 03

  No.

• 59:54Speaker 04

  Hey, I'm Niall Rogers, producer, songwriter, guitarist and co-founder of the group Sheik. A great song has a way of defining a moment, a moment of joy, heartbreak, or anything in between. This fall, I'll be driving across the country, dropping in on some of the coolest, most fascinating artists working today. We'll go deep into their lives and careers and hear what it was like before the moment that made them. From hitmakers like Miguel.

• 1:00:27Speaker 05

  That last year, finishing that record was the hardest experience of my life. Regardless of how everyone else buys into this, I believe in this and I'm gonna push.

• 1:00:39Speaker 04

  To rising stars like Alex Warren.

• 1:00:42Speaker 06

  You know, a song is a story and the verse is setting the scene. And for me, at least, it's allowing me to be personal and vulnerable with the audience, whether it's about my wife and I'm being vulnerable about her or it's about, you know, my parents and I'm being vulnerable to them. And it's almost like a cinematic piece in a way where each song tells that beautiful story.

• 1:01:00Speaker 04

  It's gonna be one hell of a trip. Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:01:13Speaker 00

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• 1:01:55Speaker 00

  Let's get the white elephant out the room today. Okay, so recently you made a post on social media about the state of singing today and whatnot. I'll say that your post definitely started a conversation as far as it looks like Song of the Summer in 2026 just very might well be a song totally created by AI.

• 1:02:23Speaker 03

  Which one?

• 1:02:25Speaker 00

  Oh, don't tell me you've not heard "Rubbers."

• 1:02:27Speaker 03

  Uh-uh.

• 1:02:28Speaker 00

  My fuck is in bigger. My son is in bigger. It's basically if someone.

• 1:02:34Speaker 03

  I guess I try not to.

• 1:02:35Speaker 00

  So to me, if Max B, who's sort of inherited the post-Bismarcky, old, dirty bastard, charismatic, horrible singing, lame, his hook writing is, he's the greatest. But he's like, he just sings any old way, like no tone. If Max B were to prompt the spirit of Morrissey and the Smiths.

• 1:03:04Speaker 03

  Whoa.

• 1:03:05Speaker 00

  And so right now, the song called "Rubbers", in which Phoenix Flex and, but also, you know, Tyga has infamously released a record that.

• 1:03:16Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:03:17Speaker 00

  It's also done the same way where everything's done in AI. So what are your feelings on you having spent a lifetime honing a craft and really putting care into your craft? And it might not necessarily matter?

• 1:03:35Speaker 03

  Right. I completely agree with that. And I, I'm making these videos because I'm interested in, in what's going on. And I like having conversations, as you do too. That's what this is about, right? Having conversation. And I'm interested in examining like this culture that I'm a part of and that we're a part of, of music. I'm a lover of it. I'm a consumer of it. I'm a creator of it. I've been inside the music industry for a very long time. I also have a perspective where I can be somewhat outside of it. And so it's almost like these videos that I'm making and sharing

• 1:04:16Speaker 03

  across social media are a little bit of like anthropological investigation. That's where I'm thinking about it from because I wanted to go to school and study that, actually. And so this is just a commentary on it. I'm not really getting into the morality of it, of like, this is bad. People in the comments can do whatever they want and I actually love to see it. I love to see the healthy debate and discourse about it. But um, I think it's interesting above all. I think that we, you don't need to be a great singer to be really impactful. I think it's fascinating as I was listening to the radio last night and a song from the 1990s came on. Someone who we deemed, I'm saying we collectively, I think we're like, they're not a good singer. They're more of a dancer. Guess what? There was no autotune that was being used then.

• 1:05:01Speaker 03

  They sound pretty damn good if we're thinking about from today's standards.

• 1:05:04Speaker 00

  What I used to.

• 1:05:06Speaker 03

  What we used to like.

• 1:05:07Speaker 00

  Judge.

• 1:05:08Speaker 03

  It's actually pretty good and pretty impressive that they had their own sound, their own tone, their own like vibes for real. And I think it's very fascinating, the, what autotune does to, and I use it, okay? I like Melodyne, autotune, I've used all the things. I've experimented with so many different ways of being. But at the end of the day, I also like musical theater because it's one of the last frontiers that are untouched.

• 1:05:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:34Speaker 03

  It's really not being affected by these things, that live, big concerts, festivals, even, you know, content that's being made and deemed as live on the internet.

• 1:05:45Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:05:45Speaker 03

  It's not like that. So I think it's interesting. I think that the pendulum swings like we're, if the Song of the Summer is an AI song, maybe it'll swing in the next few years to where we really want humanity. And I, that's why something like what Rosalia is doing is so cool. Like there's so many musicians that she hired to make that project. You know, Ray, there's such humanity in these things. And just plenty of examples of it. Bruno, as far as the way that he's, I don't think interfacing with live autotune and things like that, or pre-recorded vocals. So maybe I'm not hearing myself correctly,

• 1:06:28Speaker 03

  but it's my intention to not be judgmental or to not be on a high horse or anything like that. And just to be like, whoa.

• 1:06:35Speaker 00

  I totally got that.

• 1:06:35Speaker 03

  And be like, damn, that's really interesting. And how is it affecting us? And does that mean that less people will be interested in working on their craft because we don't need to work as hard? It's just interesting to me.

• 1:06:47Speaker 00

  Does it worry you that someone's artistic ability to give you the feels or goosebumps is now almost in diminished returns? Or like as each year goes by, a certain level of where someone truly, like a supernova talent, where that was like far.

• 1:07:09Speaker 03

  Like D'Angelo.

• 1:07:10Speaker 00

  Well, that was plentiful. Great example. D'Angelo's an awesome example. Like 30 years ago, there were no shortage of like, wow, that person can really sing their ass off. And does it get worrisome that? Well, I also believe that the really good ones, the ones who could be future Mavericks just aren't above sea level yet. And somewhere on YouTube, that person is there.

• 1:07:38Speaker 03

  That's my belief too. I don't really subscribe to this idea that like, music's in a terrible place or things just, you know, blah, blah, blah. That's just not my worldview. I actually get to interface with exceptional talent all the time, almost on a day-to-day basis.

• 1:07:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:07:55Speaker 03

  Getting to live in New York City, being adjacent and a part of the jazz scene and being in that community, hearing great singers all the time, being in musical theater and hearing tremendous talent all the time. I'm just like, damn, I need to be better, like all the time. I think it's inspiring. Getting to be at live shows, getting to go to the Roots picnic, getting to be in small spaces and hear you perform, getting, it's constantly inspiring. So I think that people do love soul and do love greatness and they also love other things and there's room for it all. I appreciate that Leon Thomas, for example, is, you know, out there with his instrument, with the songs he created, with his soul, with his own expression of things.

• 1:08:38Speaker 03

  And he's being influenced by a spirit that I was too with D'Angelo and, you know, from this. And bringing it into, to now.

• 1:08:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:46Speaker 03

  I think it's really dope.

• 1:08:47Speaker 00

  Thank you. What is the one pivotal moment that changed the direction of where your life is to where you are now?

• 1:08:55Speaker 03

  My life has been changed so many different times in beautiful, unexpected ways. But I'll speak to the most recent change, I think, which is deciding to move to New York City. That changed my life. And also realizing that moving away from a spirit of feeling like a victim of the music industry or feeling like a victim of, oh, I was born into a poverty mindset or, you know, I never, I never learned how to do these things. Like I was, I didn't know, I squandered my opportunity. I didn't know because no one taught me. Whatever, yo. Like, okay, and then now what? So I think that I was, living in LA for 13 years. I was just, it felt like Groundhog's Day of just striving and just trying.

• 1:09:39Speaker 03

  And I was becoming more sensitive to the spirit of desperation that I felt, even within myself and just kind of in Hollywood sometimes. Nothing against it. I love LA. I've had great experiences there. But against the suggestion of my team at the time and everything, I moved to New York. And I just wanted to be back on the East Coast, which is where I'm from, closer to my family. And I wanted to be around theater. The first check I ever got was from the Huntington Theater in Boston, playing Mustard Seed and Shakespeare's Midsummer Night's Dream. I love theater. I love seeing shows, being around them. I love walking around New York and.

• 1:10:22Speaker 03

  Singing and nobody cares. Just, I mean, and just like, you know,

• 1:10:26Speaker 00

  Wait, you're one of those people?

• 1:10:27Speaker 03

  I'm, I'm, I'm like in a musical.

• 1:10:29Speaker 00

  You'll break out in song?

• 1:10:30Speaker 03

  No, I'm not breaking out in song, but I'm just like, you know, sometimes humming to myself, learning a song.

• 1:10:34Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:10:35Speaker 03

  I'm not breaking out in song. I'm, no, I'm just like, that sucks, but I am just in my own world, because everyone's in their own world here.

• 1:10:43Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:10:44Speaker 03

  And I like that, you know, like the city.

• 1:10:46Speaker 00

  I feel like you dial the back a bit. I feel like you're,

• 1:10:49Speaker 03

  Ah, no.

• 1:10:49Speaker 00

  I think when you walk in your dog at like one in the morning.

• 1:10:52Speaker 03

  Not where I live. Nope. No, but I just love that the city is like a symphony and there's just constant inspiration wherever you look. So that changing of mindset and just saying, you know what, contrary to what people are telling me is the right thing and you need to be in LA if you want to take your career seriously and blah, blah, blah. I actually think I've taken my life less seriously and more seriously at the same time by following what, by following an intuition, which has led me to a life that I'm really enjoying right now, which is just a little bit more random, but also more dialed in and honed in. Does that, does that make sense?

• 1:11:31Speaker 00

  It makes sense. It does. How long does it take you to get ready for a big event?

• 1:11:36Speaker 03

  It depends. This morning, I put my hair in two braids. Like, this is not a big event. This is, this, but this, this is exciting. I've been looking forward to this.

• 1:11:44Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 1:11:44Speaker 03

  But I'm just saying, like, there's a difference between like, I guess, a red carpet and like, you know, doing a, an interview.

• 1:11:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, when you do a red carpet.

• 1:11:51Speaker 03

  A big event. I would say I like to give myself two hours because I don't like to rush.

• 1:11:57Speaker 00

  Okay. What is the last thing that you cooked for yourself?

• 1:12:01Speaker 03

  A turkey burger. Like, a turkey burger on a bed of greens. So like a turkey burger salad. That sounds very healthy.

• 1:12:12Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:12:12Speaker 03

  And it was.

• 1:12:13Speaker 00

  It was. Okay. How, how did you rate yourself?

• 1:12:16Speaker 03

  It was dry. It wasn't good.

• 1:12:18Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:12:18Speaker 03

  It was not.

• 1:12:19Speaker 00

  I love your honesty.

• 1:12:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was not busting like it should have been.

• 1:12:22Speaker 00

  All right. Do you create better when you're happy or when you're sad?

• 1:12:28Speaker 03

  I think it flows more, like, just like more rapidly when I'm distraught or, or going through something, when there's some type of friction. I'm in a very, I'm, I'm in a place where I'm really, really happy and I'm well. And I'm, it's, maybe I'm reaching my upper limit, like the Big Leap book by Gay Hendrix, where it's like, you're experiencing such, like, things are going nicely and you're, you're like, there's no way. Let me sabotage it.

• 1:13:00Speaker 00

  You want me to sabotage it so I can get some inspiration?

• 1:13:03Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:13:03Speaker 00

  I know many a person that will say, let me get back with an ex or someone toxic, just so I can have material to write about.

• 1:13:10Speaker 03

  What was the thing that we were all just in? Mercury retrograde.

• 1:13:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:13:14Speaker 03

  I had some people knocking on the door being like, hey, is it, where, where are you at? Are you happy? I'm like, you know?

• 1:13:22Speaker 03

  Just saying, you know, are you in town? No!

• 1:13:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:13:25Speaker 03

  So you just never friggin' know.

• 1:13:27Speaker 00

  The retrograde of, of the summer of 26 was one for the record books.

• 1:13:31Speaker 03

  And I normally don't really indulge things like that, meaning like the, oh, it's a retrograde, really? But I actually like, didn't sign a contract during that time because I was like, something's going on right now.

• 1:13:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:13:42Speaker 03

  But, um, yeah, I, I, I'm finding a way to, to allow myself to actually feel and not be afraid of joy and resonance and like things being good.

• 1:13:56Speaker 00

  And feel it. Okay, that's good. Stay there. Your hometown is Boston or is specific?

• 1:14:01Speaker 03

  South of Boston, Foxborough.

• 1:14:02Speaker 00

  Foxborough. Okay. Whenever I take the train there, I never know which stop to get off.

• 1:14:08Speaker 03

  Back Bay or South Station?

• 1:14:10Speaker 00

  Yeah. And it's always, I always choose the right one. Like, is this the one supposed to get off or is it, like, you have two?

• 1:14:16Speaker 03

  You could also get off in Mansfield, I think. Or no, maybe that's the commuter rail.

• 1:14:20Speaker 00

  But in terms of like a car meeting me, like, there's always something. When I travel to Boston, I love taking the train up there just to look at the.

• 1:14:27Speaker 03

  It's so nice.

• 1:14:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's my favorite thing. All right. Could you give me a fond memory of you and your mother?

• 1:14:35Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. Well, my mom has a beautiful voice and she was our soprano soloist at our Catholic church, St. Mary's in Foxborough. And I just remember being in the choir loft, like up with the, where the organ is and like feeling, oh, I just loved the way the organ sounded. And sometimes I think, maybe I'm remembering this right, I hope I am, but like, sometimes if you press the thing down, it'll be like, like.

• 1:15:02Speaker 00

  You would hear the, like a pipe warning?

• 1:15:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:15:04Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:15:05Speaker 03

  And then looking down and hearing my mom's voice reverberate and seeing her just be so in alignment with her gift that God gave her and, and singing for God and, and then being like outside the church afterwards and people, you know, coming up to her and me looking up and just being so in awe and her being so gracious. And then us, you know, getting in the, the Ford Festiva and going to get an ice cream at Friendly's. And another fond memory is my mom reading to me all the time. She read to me every night. She, we would go to.

• 1:15:40Speaker 00

  Is that where this voice comes from?

• 1:15:42Speaker 03

  Maybe. She, oh, I loved the way she read to me. Love, I love sounds, obviously, you know? So she had such a great voice for, for reading and still does. I mean, I would like for her to read to me now. So we'd go to our public library, the Boydin, and rent books and, yeah, that's one of my favorite memories.

• 1:15:59Speaker 00

  Okay. In your hometown, what is the hidden gem? Like, where must you go every time you go back to the old neighborhood?

• 1:16:10Speaker 03

  Damn, Foxborough has changed so much since I lived there.

• 1:16:13Speaker 00

  Damn.

• 1:16:13Speaker 03

  But let me, let me try to think of something. Oh, Primos. There's a, a sub shop that I believe is still there. Primos is still there.

• 1:16:20Speaker 00

  And it doesn't have to be just food either. Like, I go to Newberry Comics when I go to, you know?

• 1:16:26Speaker 03

  Yeah. Oh, okay. It's not called The Ancient Mariner anymore. My uncle calls it The Nurr, but it's called something else. It's called like, something like, that's supposed to be like nautical. I mean, Ancient Mariner is nautical too, but it's a, it's a dive bar. You see some characters in there. And I really love it for that. Like, it's, you can also, there's accommodations. You could stay there. I wouldn't.

• 1:16:48Speaker 00

  All right.

• 1:16:48Speaker 03

  It's a bit dodgy, I think, but The Ancient Mariner, and it, it's like Pike Place or, or something now. You can go and get like a vodka soda, like a cran, something. And you can also play like Kino and maybe get some mozzarella sticks or whatever. But I like going there to.

• 1:17:07Speaker 00

  So there's a dive bar. You have your hometown dive bar that you go to?

• 1:17:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's beyond a dive bar. I don't even know what to call it.

• 1:17:12Speaker 00

  Do they know you when you walk in?

• 1:17:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:17:14Speaker 00

  Should be like, hey, Joanna, how you doing?

• 1:17:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I probably wouldn't go there by myself, but I'd go there with my uncle.

• 1:17:19Speaker 00

  Okay. What is something that you've learned the hard way?

• 1:17:25Speaker 03

  Oh my God, I feel like I've learned everything the hard way. I'm just the type that needs to like bang my head against the wall to be like, that hurts. That, I require preparation. I don't really like winging things.

• 1:17:41Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:17:41Speaker 03

  Maybe it's ADD, some type of.

• 1:17:45Speaker 00

  So if I were to invite you to a jam session, you would like to know ahead of time, like, what songs are you going to do and what would you?

• 1:17:51Speaker 03

  I would like to do my own preparation of being able to be like, so, so I can call some tunes and be like, let's, let's do it in this key. Do you know what I mean? Just so I feel good. But I don't need you to necessarily be like, I mean, I would prefer if you would be like, let's maybe do this. But no, I would just want to go through my own rolodex, my own, do you know what I mean? I just require a little thoughtfulness. That's what I've learned about myself. And that's not a bad thing. It's not a good thing. It's just like, for me to feel most comfortable, if I'm going to a jam session, bitch, warm up. Don't drink. You know, just like do the things.

• 1:18:23Speaker 00

  Oh, you have to, so if you know there's a night where you're going to sing, there's certain things that, certain disciplines that you have to.

• 1:18:29Speaker 03

  Yes. And that's just, that's just in respect of

• 1:18:32Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:18:32Speaker 03

  the opportunity and my gift and of feeling good. Do you know what I mean? I've learned that the hard way.

• 1:18:38Speaker 00

  I think you also know, you're probably more aware that the internet is forever.

• 1:18:43Speaker 03

  That's it.

• 1:18:43Speaker 00

  So you can't afford

• 1:18:45Speaker 03

  That's it.

• 1:18:45Speaker 00

  a bad night.

• 1:18:47Speaker 03

  I've had so many weird nights, so many bad squa, you know, I don't want to think about it as squandering, but like where I've, you know, particularly in my twenties, where I'd get up and I'd be like four vodka sodas in. And that ain't, that ain't it for me. Some people can do that.

• 1:19:02Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:19:03Speaker 03

  I can't.

• 1:19:10Speaker 04

  Hey, I'm Niall Rogers, producer, songwriter, guitarist, and co-founder of the group Sheik. A great song has a way of defining a moment, a moment of joy, heartbreak, or anything in between. This fall, I'll be driving across the country, dropping in on some of the coolest, most fascinating artists working today. We'll go deep into their lives and careers and hear what it was like before the moment that made them. From hit makers like Miguel.

• 1:19:44Speaker 05

  That last year, finishing that record was the hardest experience of my life, regardless of how everyone else buys into this. I believe in this and I'm gonna push.

• 1:19:55Speaker 04

  To rising stars like Alex Warren.

• 1:19:58Speaker 06

  You know, a song is a story and the verse is setting the scene. And for me, at least, it's allowing me to be personal and vulnerable with the audience, whether it's about my wife and I'm being vulnerable about her, or it's about, you know, my parents and I'm being vulnerable to them. And it's almost like a cinematic piece in a way where each song tells that beautiful story.

• 1:20:16Speaker 04

  It's gonna be one hell of a trip. Experience before the moment. A Linkin' Original Series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:20:29Speaker 02

  This is Jason Timp from Hoops Tonight with Jason Timp. Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it starts with a great deal on an off-road ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's longest-lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures, and style in between. Built on a reputation for quality and reliability, Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which can mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places.

• 1:21:07Speaker 00

  So when the universe shows you a sign that a particular project does not belong to you, how do you not take it personal? What's admirable about you is that, yes, you are this established artist, but I also feel like you're taking new steps in territory that wasn't there for you, say, when you were 10.

• 1:21:29Speaker 03

  Thanks, Amir.

• 1:21:30Speaker 00

  Or whatever. So, you know, but I think all of us are doing that.

• 1:21:34Speaker 03

  Exactly, right?

• 1:21:35Speaker 00

  This is new to me.

• 1:21:35Speaker 03

  Look at you.

• 1:21:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:21:37Speaker 03

  You're constantly out there taking steps.

• 1:21:39Speaker 00

  So how do you not take it personal if a setback happens and, you know, something fell through?

• 1:21:48Speaker 03

  For example, with chess, right? Like where that was, I thought that was going to be the rest of my year. I thought that I was going to be going into this Broadway show and that that was what my life was going to look like. Eight shows a week. You kind of have these like future memories that you make. And that's kind of what the morning is for a while. But what I did was I just got real active in imagining something else and being like, you know what? You've wanted to make an album that you're really proud of. You've wanted to dive in. You've wanted to not fragment yourself. And here's your opportunity. Here's your opportunity also to have a summer where you have more time in New York, in this new place that you call home,

• 1:22:30Speaker 03

  to be with my elderly dog, who is almost 15.

• 1:22:34Speaker 00

  That's how old a cop is?

• 1:22:35Speaker 03

  Isn't that crazy? She's cooking. She's running. She's on librela, this arthritis medication. She's mad dogging.

• 1:22:40Speaker 00

  I could've sworn it's like five or six.

• 1:22:42Speaker 03

  I know. So I just pivoted and just got excited about the things that I get to do. And it's crazy the way that life has unfolded for me since that didn't happen. Now I've got to be a part of a workshop for a new musical, new works, which is ultimately what I want to do, which is originate a role. So, you know, now I'm in the room with some incredible heavy hitters, you know, EGOT winners and getting to make something.

• 1:23:06Speaker 00

  Okay. What is your favorite guilty pleasure movie?

• 1:23:11Speaker 03

  The Sex and the City movies.

• 1:23:13Speaker 00

  That's a guilty pleasure?

• 1:23:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, I don't really feel guilty about my pleasures. That's always what I say. I really don't. I just like to feel nice.

• 1:23:19Speaker 00

  All right, Samantha, go ahead.

• 1:23:20Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 1:23:21Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:23:21Speaker 03

  But I would say the Sex and the City movies. I also recently just watched The Devil Wears Prada, second movie. I love that stuff. I love movies set in New York.

• 1:23:28Speaker 00

  Okay. Have you ever been in a car accident?

• 1:23:31Speaker 03

  I have. I got into like a fender bender. And then I also was like in one around Christmas time where I got whiplash. And so that was, that was pretty scary. Nothing really bad, thank God.

• 1:23:44Speaker 00

  What year is this?

• 1:23:46Speaker 03

  I got into that one in like 2022, but it wasn't like.

• 1:23:49Speaker 00

  Wait, since we didn't meet yet?

• 1:23:51Speaker 03

  I don't think so. It's after that.

• 1:23:53Speaker 00

  What was that feeling like?

• 1:23:54Speaker 03

  What I, what I wanted to do, because it was, my partner at the time was driving and I wanted to like just get over it. And I just wanted to be like, it's good. It's good. We're fine. I didn't want him to feel bad, which was really interesting.

• 1:24:05Speaker 00

  Were you driving?

• 1:24:06Speaker 03

  No, he was driving.

• 1:24:07Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:24:07Speaker 03

  And I was in the passenger seat and the car hit my side. And he kind of was not driving in a way that I liked.

• 1:24:13Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:24:13Speaker 03

  But he felt so bad and I just didn't want to feel bad. So I was like, we don't need to go to the hospital. I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. Then like pain set in later.

• 1:24:19Speaker 00

  Ah, the adrenaline set off.

• 1:24:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, the adrenaline, yes.

• 1:24:23Speaker 00

  Okay. Who's the most out of character artist in your phone scroll?

• 1:24:30Speaker 03

  Out of character artist?

• 1:24:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:24:33Speaker 03

  What do you mean? Like who do I have that's unexpected?

• 1:24:35Speaker 00

  Is the Pope a texting friend of yours?

• 1:24:38Speaker 03

  I wish.

• 1:24:39Speaker 00

  Or?

• 1:24:39Speaker 03

  Oh, my God.

• 1:24:40Speaker 00

  Just someone that's like a random notable friendship that you've?

• 1:24:46Speaker 03

  I think people would probably think that this is a random notable friendship. I think maybe.

• 1:24:52Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:24:52Speaker 03

  I'm trying to think of who else. I don't really know what's random anymore. My life is so random.

• 1:24:57Speaker 00

  Well, I mean, we, when newcomers come to game night.

• 1:25:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:25:02Speaker 00

  I'll get their numbers to make sure that they can come to the next game night and whatnot. And I guess like, oh, yeah, the book. When I was like, all right, let me find out about JoJo. Because Zara, hi, Zara.

• 1:25:12Speaker 03

  Hi, Zara.

• 1:25:14Speaker 00

  For me, my moment there was.

• 1:25:16Speaker 03

  Making her happy.

• 1:25:17Speaker 00

  Brianna Weest.

• 1:25:18Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 1:25:18Speaker 00

  Right. But for her, it's like, oh, my God, oh, my God, oh, my God. JoJo was there. JoJo was there. JoJo.

• 1:25:24Speaker 03

  I love her. That's my girl. Yeah, nothing's ringing a bell. I wish I had the Pope's number. He seems like a little pumpkin.

• 1:25:31Speaker 00

  There you go. All right.

• 1:25:33Speaker 03

  I'm not like super Catholic, by the way. I was just raised that way. It's just a very Catholic coded podcast for me. Wow.

• 1:25:39Speaker 00

  Really?

• 1:25:40Speaker 03

  Right? I've dropped a few Catholic moments.

• 1:25:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, you do.

• 1:25:42Speaker 03

  Anyway, God bless everyone.

• 1:25:45Speaker 00

  So this might be your future. You'll?

• 1:25:47Speaker 03

  I don't think so.

• 1:25:48Speaker 00

  You never know with you.

• 1:25:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's true.

• 1:25:50Speaker 00

  Who are the five voices that you feel that they haven't been given enough light?

• 1:25:59Speaker 03

  Whew. The first artist that comes to mind, and you said voices, so you kind of mean in any capacity, right? Just like people that I think should be platformed bigger, maybe?

• 1:26:09Speaker 00

  Oh, okay. We can expand to that. I kind of meant singers.

• 1:26:12Speaker 03

  Okay. There's this artist, Sunny Cologne. Do you know this?

• 1:26:14Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:26:15Speaker 03

  Whew, I love. One of my favorite projects is Juju and the Flower Bug. And I just really feel like I'm his biggest fan. I really want more people to know. I think that Victoria Monet is perfection to me. I love her so much. I think that she's having a wonderful season. I just want it to continue to grow. I admire her so much. Wow, five. Cecile McLauren Salvante.

• 1:26:39Speaker 00

  I learned this.

• 1:26:41Speaker 03

  Oh, incredible jazz singer.

• 1:26:42Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:26:42Speaker 03

  Samara Joy, already getting so much attraction. I absolutely love her. So curious to continue to see what she continues to do. God, this is.

• 1:26:50Speaker 00

  That's four?

• 1:26:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's four. Lastly, damn, I wish I could look at my phone.

• 1:26:55Speaker 00

  Max B. No, I'm playing.

• 1:26:57Speaker 03

  Yeah. Max B. There's so much dope music out there.

• 1:27:01Speaker 00

  All right, well, we'll leave the last one blank.

• 1:27:04Speaker 03

  Lakely47.

• 1:27:05Speaker 00

  Nice. Okay.

• 1:27:06Speaker 03

  Obsessed.

• 1:27:07Speaker 00

  That's a name you don't hear often in people's.

• 1:27:10Speaker 03

  Just brilliant.

• 1:27:11Speaker 00

  Okay. I have a general thought on the art of karaoke. And if a person rips it at karaoke, that's unfair. I like karaoke bars in which it's a hot mess.

• 1:27:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:27:27Speaker 00

  One, are you a karaoke singer? And what is your go to karaoke song?

• 1:27:32Speaker 03

  Don't Invite Me to Karaoke. I'm gonna make it weird. Someone's gonna try to sing Leave, Get Out, or Too Little, Too Late, or Baby, It's You.

• 1:27:39Speaker 00

  Oh, no.

• 1:27:40Speaker 03

  And I'm gonna be like, okay, cool. But I'm gonna be like, this is so whack. Why is this happening?

• 1:27:47Speaker 00

  Does that always happen? If you show up at a bar, like somebody will sing it?

• 1:27:51Speaker 03

  Doesn't always happen. I don't want to speak hyperbolically or in absolutes or whatever, but like, it's been known to happen. And I'm just like.

• 1:27:58Speaker 00

  You get ambushed with love?

• 1:27:59Speaker 03

  And then they want me to sing it. And then I'm like, now this is going to end up on the internet and then I look stupid, but like, whatever. So.

• 1:28:05Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:28:06Speaker 03

  But if I were to do a karaoke song, it would probably be like a TLC song or, I don't know. I don't love it. I don't love it. I don't love karaoke.

• 1:28:14Speaker 00

  Okay. I'm fine with that.

• 1:28:16Speaker 03

  I don't.

• 1:28:16Speaker 00

  I'm fine with singers not loving karaoke.

• 1:28:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:28:19Speaker 00

  Okay, so the irony is in Lost On Me that you'd name Pedialyte. You know, this is something that we use to survive whatever happened the night before, right?

• 1:28:36Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:28:36Speaker 00

  And, you know, you made it sound moody and sexy and all those things that you were going for. But when you sing it now, is it still a song that hits you the same? Or is it a symptom? Like, where does it fall now when you sing it?

• 1:28:52Speaker 03

  So that song is from the Good to Know album, which came out during the pandemic. And what really resonates with me about it still is that I wanted to kind of do like a Irish drinking song in the chorus. Like, I really loved.

• 1:29:05Speaker 00

  Not jump around?

• 1:29:06Speaker 03

  Right. Damn. I really loved Rihanna's like cheers. Cheers to the freaking weekend I drank to that. Yeah, yeah. I wanted to do something in that vein, kind of. But this was more down. This was more blue or more like a depressed episode of it. So I'm like, every day is like a melancholic thing. Every day is another celebration. Life is the occasion. Party till the sun, blah, blah, blah. So what I, what does resonate with me is that kind of Celtic heritage in the melody. And that's something that I'm really interested in exploring with this project, too, is just my lineage of being a little, a little clover in the, I don't know. You know, it's somewhere in, deep in my ancestry.

• 1:29:51Speaker 03

  So that's what I like about it. But I don't, I don't dig getting drunk anymore. I love a glass of wine, but I just don't really like feeling completely out of my mind. It used to be my desire to get out of my mind. And now I much prefer reality.

• 1:30:05Speaker 00

  Okay. I'll delve into the tipsy part, but I haven't been like shitfaced drunk.

• 1:30:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:30:11Speaker 00

  And I actually wanted to know what that felt like.

• 1:30:14Speaker 03

  You've never been drunk.

• 1:30:15Speaker 00

  Nah, I'm such a lightweight that if I were to drink like Bailey's Kahlua ice cream, I'll be shitfaced drunk. Like, I'm that light. Yeah.

• 1:30:26Speaker 03

  You hold it very well.

• 1:30:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, the second I start feeling smooth, criminal, leany, then I'm like.

• 1:30:32Speaker 03

  Human hippie.

• 1:30:33Speaker 00

  Right, yeah. Is it hard forgiving yourself sometimes?

• 1:30:38Speaker 03

  Yes. Yeah. You know, I even used the word earlier, like squander an opportunity. You know what I mean? Yes, it's hard to forgive when I felt like I didn't rise to the occasion of a moment that I didn't see was presented to me at the time or where I felt like I should have stepped through something. I should have stepped up into something and I wasn't able to do that. There's that. Then it's when I've hurt somebody unintentionally or just through negligence or selfishness.

• 1:31:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:31:02Speaker 03

  So that is hard to forgive myself for. I'm still actively working to forgive myself for not being, you know, a friend that I should have been or a partner that I should have been. You know, particularly through my twenties, I was just really, I was in so much pain and only able to kind of see my own, I was just up my own ass of just like feeling bad for myself, you know?

• 1:31:25Speaker 00

  What is the greatest song of all time? One.

• 1:31:33Speaker 00

  One.

• 1:31:34Speaker 03

  That's really hard, but I'm just gonna say like a favorite of mine that I think deserves to be part of the conversation. And it's "Give Me the Night" by George Benson. I know that's a really weird thing to say, but-

• 1:31:47Speaker 00

  No, I admire you for that's so random.

• 1:31:49Speaker 03

  I love George Benson, that's Rod Temperton, right? Is it Quincy too?

• 1:31:53Speaker 00

  Yes, Quincy Jones, Rod Temperton.

• 1:31:55Speaker 03

  I think it's so beautiful and I love that he's that George is scatting on it and playing the guitar like he did on the On Broadway song.

• 1:32:01Speaker 00

  And in the video, he's doing it and skating backwards. He's skating backwards as he's doing it.

• 1:32:05Speaker 03

  That's just what comes to mind for me. I'm sure that there, you know, we could reference a Stevie song or MJ song. There's so many songs that, but I, just for me.

• 1:32:14Speaker 00

  That song checks everything. It's a great melody. The bridge is awesome.

• 1:32:18Speaker 03

  It's so nice.

• 1:32:19Speaker 00

  Everything is inside that song. I accept that answer.

• 1:32:22Speaker 03

  Cool.

• 1:32:23Speaker 00

  Okay, I would like to talk about your, I won't say your advocacy or your, I don't even think it's social work, but I believe that is, it's quietly admirable, the way that you handled the comeback situation.

• 1:32:40Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 1:32:41Speaker 00

  And, you know, especially in the case of what happened to Meg Thee Stallion. People were slow to really get behind her, especially in the very beginning, in the very beginning. And I would like to know the decision-making process that went into you deciding to, because that could have been an easy win for you in terms of like, you know, like you establishing a new song and-

• 1:33:12Speaker 03

  And standing on that.

• 1:33:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, it could have been easy to just like-

• 1:33:16Speaker 03

  First of all, I had no idea what you're talking about. I'm like, the comeback situation, what do you mean? Like when people have said I was coming back?

• 1:33:21Speaker 00

  I meant the song.

• 1:33:22Speaker 03

  No, totally.

• 1:33:23Speaker 00

  Sorry, forgive me, forgive me.

• 1:33:24Speaker 03

  So I had a song called "Comeback" and I'd like to give some context to that.

• 1:33:27Speaker 00

  See, and this is the problem with us, like, because right now it's just you and me in a room right now and I forget that I have to clue them in.

• 1:33:33Speaker 03

  Well, I'll help fill in a little bit. So I had the song called "Comeback," which was about spinning the block with an X and being like, you know what, now it's time to come back and you make me come and all that stuff. I'm just being just a little freak. And I don't really love that song, but that's how I felt at the time. And what I want to share, and I, I want to increase my tolerance for being misunderstood, but I still struggle with it. So I'm just gonna try to explain some of this. So my label at the time wanted to feature on it and I was excited about that. And I had some ideas and they proposed, they were like, what if we go out to Chris Brown for this? He'd be perfect for it. I said, I am uncomfortable with the history of violence and particularly against black

• 1:34:18Speaker 03

  women that there has been. And so many of my fans are black women and I don't, I don't feel comfortable with that. So let's keep looking.

• 1:34:28Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:34:29Speaker 03

  Tory Lanez had been doing dope stuff and he's, he's an amazing creative. I like a lot of his music. This was before anything happened with Meg Thee Stallion. So I was like, what about Tory? He, he just reached out about something, you know, I think he'd be perfect for it. And he delivered a really dope verse. So we put out the song with him on it. It was during the pandemic, everything was shut down. So we, we shot parts of the video like virtually and everything. Then what happened with Meg Thee Stallion happened. And I was just like, oh my God. The fact that, first of all, my intention to not be aligned with someone that is-

• 1:35:05Speaker 00

  It would have been seen as tone deaf.

• 1:35:06Speaker 03

  Perpetuating violence.

• 1:35:07Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:35:08Speaker 03

  Wow, that is really crazy. My, my heart was broken. It was inconceivable what Meg went through. And it wasn't even a question of, I'm, I'm pretty sure this, the version is still out there with him on it. But when it came to like, I think it was the deluxe version or continuing on with that, I, I pulled it. I just, it, it made me really uncomfortable. So that's kind of-

• 1:35:35Speaker 00

  That's understandable.

• 1:35:36Speaker 03

  It just made me really uncomfortable and, and like my original intention, which was to try to do the right thing was, I was like, oh, I, I'm just gonna continue to try to do the right thing. And, and then he was like, oh, nobody gives a shit about you anyway. You know, and he, he said some disparaging comments about me.

• 1:35:53Speaker 00

  That part I did not know.

• 1:35:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I was like, that-

• 1:35:57Speaker 00

  Oh, you made the right decision.

• 1:35:58Speaker 03

  That may or may not be true, but I have to be able to look at myself in the mirror. So.

• 1:36:03Speaker 00

  You made the right decision. Oh, you know, you're to be commended for that. When you were a child, what were your dreams of in terms of like, I made it?

• 1:36:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:36:16Speaker 00

  Versus what do you feel right now is success?

• 1:36:19Speaker 03

  So I made it really young and I'd been singing since I was two and making money from performing since I was like six years old. So by the time I was 13 and my first single came out, I was like, yeah, it's about time. Like I've been doing this my whole damn life.

• 1:36:36Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:36:37Speaker 03

  So I made it. I had a number one single. I got to tour the world. I opened for Usher, my first tour ever on his confessions tour in Europe. You know, I got to see the world. I had people giving me diamonds, putting clothing on me and like, you know, I got to wear like baby fat and go to the, you know, fashion week and stuff. I was like, wow, you know, I really, that's all I could have dreamed of. And then I had another amazing success with my second album, where we're too little too late and I just felt on top of the world and MTV and all this stuff. And then things slowed down with my label not being a functioning record label, not letting me go. It's, it's, it's all out there. And if I didn't change my definition of success, I would never be able to feel successful

• 1:37:22Speaker 03

  again. Because if, if it's chart positioning, if my self-worth is determined by being on the Billboard 200 or being or not being in the Kia asylum or, you know, chasing that pop thing, I would not experience joy. I would not experience happiness and I refuse.

• 1:37:40Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:37:40Speaker 03

  I refuse to go through this life and not experience pleasure and joy and resonance and alignment and the fruits of what, what life has to offer and what your work can, can offer. So, long-winded way of answering your question. If I like what I'm doing and I know it's to the best of my ability and I can see or I can feel that it's resonating with who is there and that there's conversation about it and that I can be paid and that I can live a, a life that is a little more than comfortable, you know what I mean? Like I'm not asking for a whole lot, but I want to be able to make a living from what I love.

• 1:38:24Speaker 03

  I find that to be successful.

• 1:38:26Speaker 00

  A good living.

• 1:38:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, a good living.

• 1:38:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:38:29Speaker 03

  You know, that I feel respected and appreciated, that's success to me. Like I, I look at my life and I'm proud of myself.

• 1:38:45Speaker 04

  Hey, I'm Niall Rogers, producer, songwriter, guitarist and co-founder of the group Sheik. A great song has a way of defining a moment, a moment of joy, heartbreak, or anything in between. This fall, I'll be driving across the country, dropping in on some of the coolest, most fascinating artists working today. We'll go deep into their lives and careers and hear what it was like before the moment that made them. From hitmakers like Miguel-

• 1:39:18Speaker 05

  That last year, finishing that record was the hardest experience of my life, regardless of how everyone else buys into this. I believe in this and I'm gonna push.

• 1:39:30Speaker 04

  To rising stars like Alex Warren.

• 1:39:33Speaker 06

  You know, a song is a story and the verse is setting the scene. And for me at least, it's allowing me to be personal and vulnerable with the audience, whether it's about my wife and I'm being vulnerable about her or it's about, you know, my parents and I'm being vulnerable to them. And it's almost like a cinematic piece in a way where each song tells that beautiful story.

• 1:39:51Speaker 04

  It's gonna be one hell of a trip. Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln Original Series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Colin Cowherd from the Colin Cowherd Podcast. Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. All starts with a great deal on an off-road ready Tacoma or a half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's most capable and longest-lasting trucks. Built on a reputation for quality and reliability, Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. For a great deal today to a great value tomorrow. Shoptoyota.com. Toyota, let's go places.

• 1:40:39Speaker 00

  What is your hidden talent? That has nothing to do with your career? What's a hidden talent that you have?

• 1:40:46Speaker 03

  I try to put all my talents out there. No, okay, I don't know if I can still do this.

• 1:40:51Speaker 00

  Ah, nah, nah, no double jointy shit.

• 1:40:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:40:54Speaker 00

  Come on, dawg.

• 1:40:55Speaker 03

  You can't unsee it.

• 1:40:55Speaker 00

  Just say you make good sourdough bread or something. Come on, man.

• 1:40:59Speaker 03

  Uh, uh, ouch, that hurt. I used to be able to like, literally lie it flat back.

• 1:41:02Speaker 00

  I hate you people.

• 1:41:04Speaker 03

  I'm so sorry.

• 1:41:05Speaker 00

  Laney Seporsy used to do that in the 4th grade, like, eh, like, bendy.

• 1:41:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:41:10Speaker 00

  Ah, okay.

• 1:41:12Speaker 03

  I don't know if that's a talent, but something.

• 1:41:15Speaker 00

  I got what I asked for. Can you share with me a fond memory about you and your father?

• 1:41:23Speaker 03

  Oh, yes. Hmm, I love thinking about us being in the car. He would drive from Nashua, New Hampshire to Foxborough, Massachusetts, to pick me up like every other weekend. You know, child of divorce, only child. And on those car rides from Foxborough back up to Nashua, we would harmonize. And there's nothing like family blend.

• 1:41:48Speaker 00

  Would you sing with your mother ever?

• 1:41:50Speaker 03

  Yeah. But my dad and I would sing more like, cool songs. Like, you know, he had like a Blues Brothers type of voice. And he'd play the harmonica and the guitar. And so we would, we would sing more classic rock and soul. And I'd play him some hip hop I was listening to. He didn't quite get it. He didn't quite like it. I'd, I'd play him some R and B and stuff that I was listening to. We loved to, to bond over music. So that was definitely, those are among the fondest memories.

• 1:42:18Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:42:18Speaker 03

  You know, rooted in music and both, with both parents. The, the memories are music based.

• 1:42:23Speaker 00

  Okay. I would like to know, how did you convince or pitch to Zelda Williams, daughter of Robin Williams, uh, the great Robin Williams, to direct the video for Save My Soul? And just the cathartic process of both of you kind of having your relationships with your dads in common? And just that whole process, how did that come to be?

• 1:42:56Speaker 03

  So Zelda is one of my longest friends, one of my closest friends, like a sister to me. Um, her mom, Marcia, and the whole tribe of, of people that, that they roll with. And I remember when her father passed. And I played his daughter in a movie. And I'm not going to say much more about it, other than I remember when it happened. I remember how I wanted to be there for her. And I remember how she was there for me when my father passed. So in the Save My Soul video, which was like, or, or the song, I took it to be about addiction and about feeling like you are really just lost in the sauce of feeling like you're not in control.

• 1:43:41Speaker 00

  And you made this for your dad before he passed away, which?

• 1:43:45Speaker 03

  I think so.

• 1:43:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:43:47Speaker 03

  Or maybe, maybe it was after. I, I really don't remember when, when we did it. It might've been after, but anyway, I, I was in a really dark place too. And Zelda and I always talked creatively. And we always shared things that we were watching. And she's, she's really, not only is she an amazing creative, she's an amazing critic as well. Like she, her assessment of things is really helpful. So she can, she can be really constructively critical. And she's a brilliant woman. And, um, I was like, would you ever direct something? I think she was telling me she wanted to get into directing. And I ended up being the first thing that she directed. It happened to be a music video. Now she's gone on to work with like Focus Features and do Lisa Frankenstein. And she's developing her next project.

• 1:44:31Speaker 03

  And so I am honored to be a part of her journey with, uh, her creative output, because she really is brilliant. But it just started through conversation.

• 1:44:39Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:44:39Speaker 03

  Just friends.

• 1:44:40Speaker 00

  What's the best advice that you've ever given a younger artist?

• 1:44:44Speaker 03

  Well, do as I say, not as I did. And, and I'll explain what I mean. Because the advice that I would give is learn how to engineer and produce yourself. And I can't do those things yet, not proficiently.

• 1:44:59Speaker 00

  Really?

• 1:44:59Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:45:00Speaker 00

  I thought you were a one human.

• 1:45:02Speaker 03

  In logic and stuff.

• 1:45:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:45:03Speaker 03

  I mean, no, I, I love to be with my engineer and comping my vocals and doing all the things. But as far as me doing it myself, no, I, I love seeing Ariana Grande do that. I love seeing my good friend Tori Kelly do that. I really admire that. And the advice that I would give younger musicians is learn how to do, learn how to be self-sufficient. So you don't have to, you know, depend on like me doing a show and trying to track down this M D or this producer and be like, can we get the stems separated for this? You know, have them on a hard drive. Like, collect your things, be organized. And get really obsessed with, with your craft, whether your instrument is, and, and learn how to play an instrument so you can accompany yourself, which is something I don't do.

• 1:45:46Speaker 03

  And it's never too late for an old dog to learn new tricks. But, you know, it's really wonderful to, to have that from a young age. That's the advice I would give young creatives. And, and get comfortable with promoting your music.

• 1:45:58Speaker 00

  How hard is it for you to cut ties? Especially, I mean, this could be also personal.

• 1:46:06Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:46:07Speaker 00

  But in terms of, you know, just knowing the, the history of your journey, from record label to different managements, to people on your team and your staff, you know, like confronting people, that's like my Achilles heel. I'd rather, I'd rather be underground, hiding under the rubble than to have to like, end the relate, like to advocate for yourself. How hard is it to advocate for yourself and let someone go?

• 1:46:39Speaker 03

  It's so hard, right? It is. It takes time. And I have stayed in dynamics that I knew had an expiration date, but I was just waiting for something like really bad or really, I couldn't live with it anymore, to rip the Band-Aid off. And sometimes you never get that really bad thing that happens. So you're just like in a state of like dissatisfaction with, with the status quo. But I, I've tried to increase my tolerance for, sorry, increase my tolerance for the discomfort of having the hard conversation. And oftentimes I need to like, write it out and almost rehearse it. Or sometimes be like, hey, I want to share something with you.

• 1:47:22Speaker 03

  I'm gonna send it in a text or an email, sit with it. Let me know what you think, then let's talk about it. Because I'm gonna stumble over my words. And sometimes I'll try to.

• 1:47:30Speaker 00

  Are you doing it in real time?

• 1:47:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:47:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:47:32Speaker 03

  And sometimes I'll try to plant seeds of like discontent and be like.

• 1:47:38Speaker 00

  You're passive aggressive, JoJo?

• 1:47:40Speaker 03

  I guess so. I just mean, I'll, I'll plant a seed of like, you know, and obviously this isn't working, right? You know what I mean? I guess that is passive aggressive. I'll be like, you know, and clearly the way that this is needs to be reconfigured. So let's, I get so like dead ass too.

• 1:47:55Speaker 00

  Oh my God, the way, even that hypothetical example like had me scared like, okay.

• 1:47:59Speaker 03

  I know, I, I really. I'm so intense sometimes. But, um, it's, it is challenging to, but I like to think about it like this right now. Because I want to be on good terms with all people and especially people I respect. It's not that I want to, I want them out of my life. It's just like, let's find the new correct place for us to be in each other's lives, perhaps work together, but maybe with a new perspective on it. And maybe with you focusing in this area. And I take more of a, right now, at this point in my life, I want to be in a more CEO position in, in my life and career, you know?

• 1:48:36Speaker 00

  You want that?

• 1:48:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:48:39Speaker 00

  Wow. Like, for me, I have such a fear of really becoming a suit.

• 1:48:45Speaker 03

  I don't want to be a suit. I want to wear a cool leather jacket.

• 1:48:48Speaker 00

  Well, that's, I, I know, but it's, it's just, you know, in my mind, I need to be 100% immersed inside of my creativity. And whenever, any logistical, like things I have to sign or have a meeting about this or, you know, it's the, the business end of it, like pulls me out of it and I.

• 1:49:10Speaker 03

  Okay, so, yeah, maybe when I say CEO, I really don't mean that. I just mean that I just want to be way more inside of and across all things.

• 1:49:18Speaker 00

  But I got the gist of it.

• 1:49:20Speaker 03

  I don't like the logistical stuff either. That's why a, a chief of staff, you know, a head of operations is really, really important when you have different plates spinning. I don't know how you do all the things that you do. I truly, truly don't. But even just being in proximity and in friendship with you has been very inspiring in, in my own journey.

• 1:49:37Speaker 00

  I just wake up.

• 1:49:38Speaker 03

  No, you don't.

• 1:49:39Speaker 00

  All right, these are my last three questions. Okay. What is the most awkward thing you ever said to a hero of yours when you first met them?

• 1:49:47Speaker 03

  Oh my God. Well, uh, this thing came to mind because I love Destiny's Child. I love all three members. And Kelly Rowland is so talented, so beautiful, so gracious, so stunning, all the things. And I was so awkward because I thought her husband was her makeup artist. So I was like, oh my God, I love him. He does such beautiful work. And I think she was just like, that's my husband. I was like, oh my God, that's not who I thought that was.

• 1:50:16Speaker 03

  That's a different guy. Okay.

• 1:50:22Speaker 03

  I still think about it to this day. I'm just like, why?

• 1:50:25Speaker 00

  Did you ever clarify or is this how they're finding out?

• 1:50:28Speaker 03

  I've never clarified. I'm sure she still thinks, maybe she doesn't think about it at all. But I was just like, I'm like, oh, my God, he's so.

• 1:50:34Speaker 00

  Sorry, Tim.

• 1:50:35Speaker 03

  I was saying all types of like, I thought it was someone else.

• 1:50:39Speaker 00

  But I'm also the king of that. What is the most treasured item you've ever collected?

• 1:50:45Speaker 03

  Most treasured item?

• 1:50:46Speaker 00

  Yes. What's, what is, what's your soul train? What's your vintage cars or like?

• 1:50:52Speaker 03

  Oh, man, I don't think that I'm much of a collector, actually, but someone got me a real.

• 1:50:57Speaker 00

  You're not sentimental?

• 1:50:58Speaker 03

  No, I'm not.

• 1:50:59Speaker 00

  I'm jealous. Okay.

• 1:51:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, like.

• 1:51:01Speaker 00

  How though?

• 1:51:02Speaker 03

  Like, literally, I lived in L.A. for 13 years. I had a, a storage space. I let almost everything go when I moved to New York. I just keep it moving. I, I don't know. You know, people are like, do you have those outfits that you wore, you know, from the, you know, from the thing? I'm like, no, I don't know where they are.

• 1:51:18Speaker 00

  None of your clothes, none of your concert posters, none of your?

• 1:51:22Speaker 03

  I have a few plaques and stuff that I'm thankful that my mom kept at her boyfriend's, like, basement or something like, we just, I just moved so much. I've moved 22 times in my life and it's, it, it makes me sad, actually, a little bit. But this is my answer to the question. My friend got me a pressed four-leaf clover and they're really rare. And I think that's really cool. Is it sad that I'm not sentimental?

• 1:51:47Speaker 00

  No, it's, it's, it actually tracks because I know many an artist like that.

• 1:51:52Speaker 03

  Just gotta keep going.

• 1:51:54Speaker 00

  All right, last question. When all is said and done,

• 1:52:00Speaker 00

  what do you want us to know about you?

• 1:52:02Speaker 03

  Ah, I think that's a hard question. I mean, what do I want people to know about me? That I am passionate and curious and always wanting to evolve and grow. And I love music so much. The, the industry of it can sometimes suck the joy from it.

• 1:52:24Speaker 00

  Not so much.

• 1:52:24Speaker 03

  But music is so awesome. And I love to be around people who are passionate and evolving too. And that's really my, yeah, that's what I'd like, I think.

• 1:52:35Speaker 00

  Okay, this wasn't that hard, was it?

• 1:52:37Speaker 03

  This was so.

• 1:52:38Speaker 00

  From one to six, we, we did a nice, we did a, we did a, we did a 6.8.

• 1:52:45Speaker 03

  This was so great. I, I appreciate all these questions. This was really.

• 1:52:48Speaker 00

  You know, I wanna, I wanna get to the surface of someone being a human being, not just, so, tell me about your new record.

• 1:52:55Speaker 03

  Totally.

• 1:52:56Speaker 00

  And what was it like doing, you know?

• 1:52:57Speaker 03

  We covered so much ground and, and all, so many of the things that I, that are important to me and that I wanna talk about from just the state of the music industry and singing and theater and coast to coast and all the things. So thank you for giving me the opportunity.

• 1:53:12Speaker 00

  My pal, thank you.

• 1:53:13Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 1:53:14Speaker 00

  My, my friend Joanna. And yeah, this is the Questlove Show and we will see you on the next go around. See y'all.

• 1:53:21Speaker 03

  Wow, that was so nice.

• 1:53:23Speaker 00

  We did it.

• 1:53:24Speaker 03

  You pulled out some songs that I've not.

• 1:53:30Speaker 00

  The Questlove Show is hosted by me, Amir Questlove Thompson. The executive producers are Sean G., Brian Calhoun, and me. Produced by Brittany Benjamin and Jake Payne. Produced for iHeart by Noel Brown. Edited by Alex Conover. iHeart video support by Mark Canton.

• 1:53:54Speaker 00

  Logos, graphics, and animation by Nick Aloy.

• 1:53:58Speaker 00

  Additional support by Lance Coleman. Special thanks to Kathy Brom. Special thanks to Sugar Steve Mandel.

• 1:54:08Speaker 00

  Please subscribe, rate, review, and share The Questlove Show wherever you stream your podcasts. Make sure you follow us on socials. That's at Q L S.

• 1:54:20Speaker 00

  Check out hundreds and hundreds of Q L S episodes, including The Questlove Supreme Shows in our podcast archives.

• 1:54:28Speaker 00

  The Questlove Show is a production of iHeart Radio.

• 1:54:42Speaker 05

  Hey, this is Mario Lopez from All Mario Lopez Daily Podcast. Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it starts with a great deal on an all-wheel drive Camry, Corolla Cross, or a Corolla sedan with the latest features in tech. Or test drive a spacious Grand Highlander or adventure-ready RAV4. And with so many hybrid models available, you can enjoy longer trips without all the stops. While Toyota's legendary resale value means you could get more at traded. So get a great deal today and great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for deals and details. Toyota, let's go places.

• 1:55:18Speaker 04

  If you love music and great artist interviews, check out Before the Moment, hosted by Nile Rodgers. This new series follows Nile as he travels across the country, talking with some of today's most fascinating artists about the moments that shaped their lives and careers. From hitmakers like Miguel to rising stars like Alex Warren, Nile explores the stories behind the careers, the songs, and the moments that changed everything. Because every musician remembers the point where everything changed. And this podcast tells the stories that came before it. Listen to Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series, on the iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:55:56Speaker 00

  Behind every chart-topping hit, you know by heart there's an original, writing it someplace where nobody was listening. Behind the culture that marks a generation, there's an original, already moving, already shaking things up. Behind every night that changed the room, somebody had to walk in first. Not knowing it would land, but doing it anyway. Originals are out there, living stories worth telling. What's yours? Behind every original, live in Levi's.

• 1:56:31Speaker 06

  Honestly, honestly.

• 1:56:32Speaker 00

  Honestly, no one wants to think about HIV, but there are things that everyone can do to help prevent it. Things like PrEP. PrEP stands for pre-exposure prophylaxis. And it means routinely taking prescription medicine before you're exposed to HIV to help reduce your chances of getting it. PrEP can be about 99% effective when taken as prescribed. It doesn't protect against other STIs, though, so be sure to use condoms and other healthy sex practices. Ask a healthcare provider about all your prevention options and visit findoutaboutprep.com to learn more. Sponsored by Gilead. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.