#2521 - Aravind Srinivas

Aravind Srinivas, PhD, is the co-founder and CEO of Perplexity AI, creator of the AI-powered search and answer engine Perplexity.www.perplexity.ai Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. This video is sponsored by BetterHelp. Visit https://BetterHelp.com/JRE Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The Joe Rogan Experience.

• 0:06Joe Rogan?

  Show you my day, Joe Rogan Podcast, my night, all day.

• 0:13Joe Rogan?

  Good to see you.

• 0:14Speaker 02

  You too. Thanks for having me.

• 0:16Joe Rogan?

  My pleasure.

• 0:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 0:17Joe Rogan?

  How many podcasts have you done?

• 0:19Speaker 02

  I don't know. I don't know the count, but maybe tens.

• 0:23Joe Rogan?

  Well, when we were talking, we were talking in the lobby, I was like, this dude would be a good guest. Because we were talking about ancient Hindu scriptures, where you were talking to me about something that sounds like a nuclear bomb.

• 0:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 0:33Joe Rogan?

  And I was like, oh.

• 0:34Speaker 02

  The Brahmastra.

• 0:35Joe Rogan?

  I need to know more about this.

• 0:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. So the Brahmastra is part of the Mahabharata. You've talked about Mahabharata.

• 0:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, the Brahmanas and yeah.

• 0:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. So the Mahabharata is one of the two Hindu epics. The other one is Ramayan. But Mahabharata is more interesting. It's more complicated. It's like a lot of different stories interleave together. And the Brahmastra is the equivalent of the hydrogen bomb.

• 1:03Joe Rogan?

  And how is it described?

• 1:04Speaker 02

  It's described as a weapon of like mass destruction, going to annihilate like human population, should not be used at any cost. There's like a moral contract, like you clearly have to be like, you know, violating so many things at a deeply moral level to even like wield it. And it's not actually, it's not actually accessible to most warriors. There's probably like two warriors in the world in that era who were allowed to use it. And it has to be passed through special access, like a teacher has to like pass it on to you, the secret to use it. Almost like a new, you think about it as like the equivalent of the nuclear code, right?

• 1:47Speaker 02

  And Arjuna had it, this particular character in Mahabharata called Arjuna. He was allowed to use it. And then this other person was this, basically Arjuna had a teacher named Drona. And Drona had a son named Ashwattama. And Ashwattama was always jealous of Arjuna. Arjuna was not Drona's son, but he was his model disciple. And so Drona passed on the secret of the Brahmastra to him.

• 2:19Speaker 02

  Drona's son also wanted it, but because it was his son, he also passed on the secret to his son, even though the son wasn't as good as Arjuna. And during the war, Arjuna and Drona fought on the opposite sides. It's just, you know, circumstances. And his dad died, Ashutama's dad, the teacher died in the war. And so the son got mad and like unleashed the Brahmastra. And Lord Krishna had to come and save, save the planet to not, not get that destruction force.

• 2:52Joe Rogan?

  How old is the Mahabharata?

• 2:54Speaker 02

  Again, there's a lot of different opinions on this, so I don't actually know for sure. My understanding is at least 1,500 to 2,500 years old. Like 1,500 years ago is the minimum, 2,500 years ago is the maximum. So it happened in some period in that thousand year timeframe between that. And there's still like, it's still unclear if like, a lot of it is just like, you know, being mythologized. And what actually happened was just a war between kins. There were two groups of people, the Pandavas and the Kauravas. And, you know, each side thought they were fighting for their own rights and justice.

• 3:38Speaker 02

  But at the end of the day, you can crudely understand it as like, essentially fight for the kingdom. Basically, there were like, there was a previous generation and two brothers, and both the brothers had a bunch of kids, and those kids were warring to get the next in line. And that ended up being like a massive war, and a bunch of other allies fought on each sides. And so many amazing weapons were used as part of the war. And a lot of these weapons are like, extremely, like describe an extreme level of detail that is pretty incredible. Like, there's a lot of detail around like targeted weapons.

• 4:20Speaker 02

  So you could precisely identify a target and just shoot at that. And then-

• 4:25Joe Rogan?

  Does it explain like what the weapon is?

• 4:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, so there is one weapon called the Devyastra, where you can just specifically target any, any particular person or a group, and it would just automatically direct itself and do it, almost like a semi-autonomous weapon. And then Lord Krishna had this-

• 4:44Speaker 02

  Weapon called the Sudarshan Chakra, it's basically a discus. And then you can just release it and it'll go and specifically identify somebody and chop off their head and come back to your, you, you, right? It, it self directs itself. So my, what I was amazed by is how interesting it is in terms of all the autonomy in the weapons, semi-autonomy or autonomy, where the weapons could just be directed at people or like directed at, you know, a group of soldiers and it would just go and do its job and come back to the wielder. And there were so many different astras, Devy Asra, Varan Asra, Nag Asra, Ram Asra is obviously the ultimate, the hydrogen bomb equivalent.

• 5:26Speaker 02

  And all of these are like described in a lot of detail and like who has access to it. And of course, it's mythologized, so it's described as just like these arrows in your, like, you know, in the back of your shoulders, but you could, you could understand it as like, you know, somebody having just access to a lot of weapons. And then whoever was powerful would go capture and colonize and like gain power. And essentially a fight between a group of cousins. That, that, that, that's the bottom line of that story.

• 5:55Joe Rogan?

  Now, if we think of history as this linear progression from caveman to us.

• 6:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:00Joe Rogan?

  And we hear about autonomous weapons that were written in the Mahabharata somewhere around 2,000 plus years ago, we go, well, mythology.

• 6:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:07Joe Rogan?

  But if not, if there's been some sort of rise and fall of civilization, if there has been catastrophic, whatever it is, asteroid impacts.

• 6:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:18Joe Rogan?

  Shifting of the poles, whatever it is.

• 6:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:20Joe Rogan?

  That's caused great disasters. You can imagine that these people are remembering a time where there was some sort of very advanced civilization. And this is what they're describing, like, if you knew for a fact that there had been a great advanced, technologically advanced civilization, when we have evidence that they had some technology, like the pyramids of Giza and stuff, like, how did you do that?

• 6:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:44Joe Rogan?

  There's some technology involved, right?

• 6:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:46Joe Rogan?

  But we don't have evidence of the technology.

• 6:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:49Joe Rogan?

  But if we did, if we knew for a fact, you would look at the Mahabharata and go, oh, this is history. They're just explaining it in a kind of crude contemporary way for the time, arrows instead of, you know, semi-autonomous drones.

• 7:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:03Joe Rogan?

  With exploding heads on them.

• 7:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:05Joe Rogan?

  I mean, that's what we have now. All those things that they're describing. Hydrogen bomb, semi-autonomous and autonomous drones. I mean, they have, they have autonomous fighter jets now. Like, they don't need people anymore. Like, this, we're, we're in that area right now. So when you read about something like that from the Mahabharata, you go like, okay, what, what was really going on? This episode is brought to you by The Mosquito Bowl. Here's a story that's pretty incredible. After Pearl Harbor, four of the best college football players in America walk away from promising NFL careers to enlist in the Marines and fight in World War II. And the craziest part, it's a true story.

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• 10:12Speaker 02

  Exactly. Yeah, I mean, that's always been my fascination with those epics. And the level of detail with which they described all these weapons, and who had access, different levels of access, the status required to have access, and how it was used in the wars, different formations of the soldiers. They had all these crazy formation structures, like forming the army like a lotus, forming the army like a, you know, there's something called a chakra view, how like, literally, like it has to have concentric circles. So you cannot actually get into the innermost circle without going through the outer circles, and then you can get killed by each of the flanks whenever you're trying to enter in.

• 10:56Speaker 02

  And the secret of how to actually break into these vihlas, vihlas means formations, was only known to a few people. And it's incredible, like, you could say, okay, like, somebody had to be extremely skillful to have that sort of like visualizations and imaginations of describing a story like that. And obviously, like, Tolkien has done an amazing job with A Lot of the Rings, you know, in creating so much detail. At the same time, like, a lot of it actually coming true in real life in some form, again, not exactly the same weapons, but similar style, makes you wonder... Was there actually something around then? And people have tried excavations in all these areas. There's like two main areas in the Mahabharata.

• 11:40Speaker 02

  Hastinapur was the name of the kingdom. And people have done excavations around there and have like found some artifacts that might date back to those years. But there are also some details that are described in the epics that don't quite align with reality. For example, all the men, all the main warriors in that era were described as like very tall, very big, seven, eight feet, whatever, you know? I don't even know exact numbers. But, but our history, studies by archaeologists also say that people who lived in those years, in those regions were probably not more than six feet tall.

• 12:22Speaker 02

  So it's not clear exactly like what happened, what was correct, what was not correct. And, you know, we just have to keep probing more. But I find the idea fascinating to think of like what could have existed in sacred texts that was only partially communicated to the next generation and having a lot of like reinterpretations. Another thing that is very interesting to think about is Vedic math. So that basically Vedic math is like a branch of mathematics that, you know, some people in India are grown up learning, like I read it myself too. And some people actually practice it just to be sharper at mental math for doing their exams, like GMAT and things like that, GRE.

• 13:04Speaker 02

  And it has like a line in the Vedas that says, oh, like one from the last digit, two from the first digit, whatever, you know? So many different ways of multiplying two different numbers, like 97 times 96. Oh, like subtract the last two digits, put it in the right, multiply the first digit, just put it in the left, that's the result. And then you, you wonder like, oh wait, the Rig Veda is so old, it's as old as, it's the oldest sacred text out there. How is it describing computation? That feels

• 13:35Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 13:36Speaker 02

  very unreal. Like, do they actually know or understand advanced forms of computation even back in those days?

• 13:43Joe Rogan?

  And And how old is Rig Veda?

• 13:46Speaker 02

  I don't exactly know how old it is.

• 13:50Joe Rogan?

  Why don't we put that into perplexity?

• 13:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, let's do that.

• 13:53Joe Rogan?

  Let's find out.

• 13:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, it is technically the oldest sacred text out there.

• 14:03Joe Rogan?

  And so what's interesting is I wonder how old the stories were by the time they were written down. Like, how much of it is relayed person to person for years and years, just like the Bible, before it's ever actually written down? Scholars usually date the composition of the Rig Veda to about 1500 to 1200 BCE. So its oldest layers roughly 3200, 3700 years old today. Like, if there really was, like, every ancient culture has a story of a flood. Everyone, they all have an apocalypse.

• 14:42Speaker 02

  Mahabharata had the same thing. Mahabharata had the same thing where there was a big, like, almost like a tsunami-like thing. I don't exactly know what it was called, but that was the collapse of Lord Krishna's kingdom, Dwaraka. After the war, a lot of people died, but some people survived. And even those who survived got wiped out by a calamity or like some kind of like a fight among themselves. And most of the people who participated in that era actually died.

• 15:11Joe Rogan?

  Here it is, the primordial, how do you say it, Manu?

• 15:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:14Joe Rogan?

  Manu flood, classic Hindu great flood myth where the righteous king Manu is warned by a divine fish about an imminent deluge that will destroy humanity.

• 15:26Joe Rogan?

  He builds a boat, loads it with his family. It's like Noah and the ark. It's the same thing with seeds and animals, ties it to the horn of the god in fish form, which toes the boat to safety until the waters recede and the world is repopulated. They all have the same story.

• 15:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:44Joe Rogan?

  That's what's really crazy.

• 15:46Speaker 02

  There is a, there is a concept in Hindu philosophy called the yogas.

• 15:51Joe Rogan?

  Mm hmm. I'm, I'm reading a book about it right now.

• 15:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's like different yogas and yogas are like thousands of years. And the concept is that the yogas keep cycling around. And so like, we are in the Kali Yuga right now. And before that was a Dwapara Yuga, that's when most of Mahabharata happened. And before that, there was a Treta Yuga where the Ramayan happened. And before that, there was another Yuga?

• 16:14Joe Rogan?

  What is next after Kali Yuga?

• 16:16Speaker 02

  It, no, there is nothing next after Kali Yuga. It, it goes back to the first one. I forget the name of the first Yuga.

• 16:22Joe Rogan?

  Cause the, what the interpretation that I'm reading is that we're not in Kali Yuga anymore. And that Kali Yuga ended in the nineteen hundreds and Dwapa Yuga started then.

• 16:31Speaker 02

  No, no, we are in Kali Yuga right now.

• 16:32Joe Rogan?

  Hundred percent.

• 16:33Speaker 02

  Hundred percent.

• 16:33Joe Rogan?

  So why do people have different interpretations? Like, there, is there a?

• 16:37Speaker 02

  Is that true?

• 16:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, there's like a guru interpretation. There's like one specific guru.

• 16:42Speaker 02

  I see.

• 16:42Joe Rogan?

  That has this interpretation that Kali Yuga ended in the nineteen hundreds.

• 16:47Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 16:47Joe Rogan?

  And that we're moving on.

• 16:49Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 16:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but I don't know who's right, cause it's, it's an enormous cycle, right? The cycles of humanity.

• 16:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, thousands of years.

• 16:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 16:56Speaker 02

  Thousands of years and uh.

• 16:58Joe Rogan?

  So.

• 16:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, so these are the four Yugas, um, and um.

• 17:07Joe Rogan?

  So why do people have different interpretations? What, let's, um, let me tell you the book I'm reading.

• 17:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:13Joe Rogan?

  Uh, see if this book is discredited, young Jamie. It is, um, it's by a guy named, uh, David, uh, Steinowitz?

• 17:30Joe Rogan?

  Stein, Steinmetz, David Steinmetz. The book is called The Yugas.

• 17:35Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 17:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I mean, the, the, the problem is when someone's got their own interpretation or some guru's interpretation, it doesn't totally align. It's hard to know who's right and who's wrong.

• 17:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:48Joe Rogan?

  Keys to Understanding Our Hidden Past, Emerging Energy Age, and Enlightened Future.

• 17:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, so that, go back up to that again. So this is in the description. See what it says that? Where it says, "In eighteen ninety-four, an Indian sage gave us an explanation not only for our hidden past, but for the trends of today and for future enlightenment." So there's like one guy's interpretation that this guy is going off of.

• 18:15Speaker 02

  I guess the difference might be that, um, he thinks the Yuga cycle is twenty-four thousand years. Whereas, I think it's probably much longer than that.

• 18:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 18:24Speaker 02

  Um.

• 18:25Joe Rogan?

  Four Yugas together is four million, three hundred and twenty thousand years. You know what's really nutty?

• 18:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:32Joe Rogan?

  One of the really nutty things is, um. Both in the ancient Sumerian texts and in some of the ancient Egyptian texts. There's depictions before the flood of people who reigned for thousands of years as kings.

• 18:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:49Joe Rogan?

  And it's common. It's not, it's, and it's also they're referenced multiple times in different scripts that are from different parts of uh what was Sumeria at the time.

• 18:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:00Joe Rogan?

  It's really weird because they take it as established history. Once it gets to a certain age, once they get into like whatever the age is where they can verify that this person was the king for a certain period of time. But it's all in the same texts as people that reigned for six thousand years.

• 19:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:18Joe Rogan?

  It's, it's weird.

• 19:19Speaker 02

  One even just wipes out the whole thing.

• 19:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 19:21Speaker 02

  And um, I mean, this is also somewhat like tangentially related to um um the Fermi paradox. You know, like if, if you assume all these things are happening on Earth itself, that entire civilizations are getting wiped out. You, and, and like we always wonder, I mean, you, you've explored this topic the most, um and um, where are the aliens?

• 19:45Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 19:45Speaker 02

  And um, there are different arguments that like, okay, like, the reason we haven't quite found that is because the great filter exists. And uh, there is like one entertaining theory that um I like, just for the sake of entertainment is um, almost all civilizations end up advancing technologically a lot. And um, either a calamity wipes them out or like they build some miscellaneous AGI and then AGI wipes them out. And um, and because of that, um, they never actually like, and end up being visible to us. Or the other theory is that like, they're like, um, we haven't quite built the Weinmann probes to actually go find them.

• 20:29Speaker 02

  And um, both of them are plausible. And um, it, it, you know, the, there's, there's no clear way to like, know.

• 20:39Speaker 02

  Unless we actually like send out enough probes.

• 20:42Joe Rogan?

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• 21:21Joe Rogan?

  Their live sessions have an average rating of 4.9 out of 5. Don't let stigma stand in the way of support. Start therapy with BetterHelp. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/jre. That's better H E L P dot com slash J R E. There's a bunch of possibilities. I mean, there's almost too many to count, but there's the possibility that they are observing and that they don't want to interfere. And that we are on some sort of evolutionary cycle.

• 21:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:50Joe Rogan?

  A cycle of cultural evolution, civilization evolution.

• 21:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:54Joe Rogan?

  And one of the things about this, the crazy ages that comes from the Sumerian text and from the ancient, the hieroglyphs that depict the zeptet. How do you say it? Zeptet-y? No.

• 22:10Joe Rogan?

  How am I saying that? What is that text? That ancient, remember we talked about it was Zahi Hawass and he denied its existence?

• 22:19Joe Rogan?

  Zeptet-y? Is that it? Either way, you're dealing with these kings that reigned for thousands and thousands of years. Well, you know, David Sinclair is in the middle of this research now. That's they're working on life extension drugs, like that are actionable.

• 22:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's it. Zeptet-y.

• 22:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, I've heard of it.

• 22:38Joe Rogan?

  So these, but this is what's so weird. If they look at hieroglyphs, they get to a certain point and they're like, oh, Kufu, he was real. This guy was real. All these people were real.

• 22:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:48Joe Rogan?

  But then they get back to these guys that reigned for thousands of years and they go, oh, that was just horseshit.

• 22:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:53Joe Rogan?

  But why is it that all these people have these stories that align with this timeline that's pre-flood? It's all like the same story.

• 23:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:02Joe Rogan?

  And then if you're talking about. These ancient Hindu scriptures that are discussing technology that seems remarkably similar to technology that we have today.

• 23:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, the Ramones or flying cars, basically.

• 23:15Joe Rogan?

  And probably what we're going to have a hundred years from now, or whatever it is. Or we could have gone that way in the past.

• 23:22Speaker 02

  And it's very entertaining to think of like, let's say something happens to us, right? I don't want anything to happen to us, but let's say something happens to us and would people really believe you were like launching reusable rockets?

• 23:32Joe Rogan?

  Right. Or making FaceTime calls to people in Australia?

• 23:36Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, like even fundamental things like all we were doing today. I think it's all incredible. Like there's a lot of things that could be just technological ideas, or maybe people actually had it and the knowledge of it was lost and it's not been documented, it's not been passed along. And so we are skeptical if they ever had it.

• 23:55Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 23:55Speaker 02

  And so we end up reinventing it in different forms again and again and again. And we keep cycling through this process.

• 24:01Joe Rogan?

  Well, it also could be that this is the natural progression of human curiosity. The human curiosity and ingenuity always moves into these very particular ways. Like what's the best way to defeat my enemies?

• 24:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:12Joe Rogan?

  If we're always going to be territorial primates, we're always going to want to defeat our enemies. We're always going to protect ourselves from being invaded. So we're going to make better and just with technological innovation, it just goes down the same path. Oh, we figure out bullets. Oh, we figure out nuclear bombs. Well, we figure out, well, we don't even have to use an actual plane. We can use an autonomous drone and that delivers it. And then scale upwards and onwards and AI and then also life extension. So if these people were able to make the pyramids, like,

• 24:43Joe Rogan?

  you know, there's a lot of speculation as to the timeline of the pyramids. But let's just say they really built it 2500 B.C. Let's just say back then. What the fuck were they using? Like what were you, what did you do? How did you get these stones down from the mountains that were 500 miles away?

• 25:01Speaker 02

  How about this one?

• 25:01Joe Rogan?

  How about that one?

• 25:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:03Joe Rogan?

  We were going to get to that for sure. There's a ton, no, thank, what's good as any? How about these temples that they find in India that are carved entirely out of one piece of stone?

• 25:16Joe Rogan?

  What did you do? How did you do that? How long ago did this happen? How many of them were buried and then they had to uncover them? And then like, figure out, like, what is this? Who made it? There's no timeline. No one really knows. There's no evidence of tools that were capable of doing this kind of work back then. And they're huge and beautiful and perfect. And they have like acoustic properties and the geometry is fucking fantastic.

• 25:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:46Joe Rogan?

  It's nuts, man.

• 25:47Speaker 02

  It's not just that, all of these temples were actually just built, uh, not just, they were specifically, the locations for them are picked out so that you get the right seismic vibrations over there. In terms of like, uh, proximity to the ocean, the gravitational waves from the sun and the moon. People actually made that level of like-

• 26:10Joe Rogan?

  Look at this, man. Imagine the undertaking of carving that temple out of the side of a fucking giant piece of rock.

• 26:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:22Joe Rogan?

  You screw up one thing and it's over.

• 26:24Speaker 02

  There's no simulations. You just have to like, build it.

• 26:27Joe Rogan?

  Well, what did they have? This is the question. Like, imagine today, if we had to do this, look, it's possible. This is a possible endeavor. It can be done.

• 26:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:38Joe Rogan?

  But imagine, what kind of technology would we have to need to map it out? To make sure that it was all precise? That it all, I mean, it's precise within like, millimeters from point to point. And everything is done out of one piece of stone. Like, what did they do? Was it chisels? Did you do that with chisels? That's crazy. How many times did you have to sharpen your fucking chisel? That's nuts. Or did you have something completely different? Because some of the more intricate ones, see if you can find these. Some of the crazy ones, inside these temples, there's sculptures that are three dimensional. And they're carved like, inside of the sculpture.

• 27:19Joe Rogan?

  So there's like an outer area and then there's these, all these openings and then inside it's highly detailed, like- How'd you even reach in there?

• 27:28Speaker 05

  It just says they use chisels and hammers and I don't think that's possible.

• 27:33Joe Rogan?

  And careful geometric planning.

• 27:35Speaker 05

  There seem to be people trying to do that. They said like this is how much work someone could do in like 12 hours with a hammer and they get nowhere, let alone like perfect and looking good.

• 27:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's nuts, man. And there's a lot of evidence of stuff like that all over the world, which is really weird. You have the stuff in Peru, like Saxoan, when you look at these stones and it looks like they're melted into place and they're 900 tons. Like what did you do?

• 28:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, how did he even get it up there?

• 28:05Joe Rogan?

  How'd you, where'd they get it? How'd you get it there? How'd you align it perfectly? Built in only 18 years. How do they know that? How do they know that? Cause it's attributed to one king?

• 28:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:16Joe Rogan?

  So King Christian I, 756 to 773 CE? Maybe. How do you know though?

• 28:25Speaker 05

  Yeah, they said, archaeologists said it would have, they calculated it would take them 100 years to do it.

• 28:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 28:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, this is where like, you know.

• 28:33Speaker 05

  I don't know.

• 28:34Speaker 02

  Different historian accounts are all like muddled up, you know.

• 28:36Joe Rogan?

  Uh huh. Well, it's a real problem. History is a real problem.

• 28:40Speaker 02

  But yeah, it goes back to like the thing you were saying, right? You know, what is one thing that's common across all these different ages is the human curiosity. So, I mean, that's something that, you know, I would love to get your take on this. Like I've been dying with this idea called a curiosity premium, which is the most effective people, the most successful people have always been the most curious people, the ones who have been good at asking the best questions and they tend to do better in every aspect of their life. And you're a good example of that, so that's why I would love to get your take on this. And the reason I believe that is because.

• 29:17Speaker 02

  Long term, people who continuously ask questions tend to do better. They make more money. They have a higher quality of life. They're happy. They have more compounding relationships. People find them more interesting. And so they compound their relationships over time. And so naturally, they end up succeeding. But their spirit of inquiry, their intrinsic curiosity doesn't actually stop once they succeed. It only, they just channelize it even more. And so that's why it keeps compounding. And I would argue that like it's the only quality, it's the only like quality that makes us really human. You know, in this world where we can seek a lot of information, get information way faster than ever before.

• 30:01Speaker 02

  It feels like that's that one universal human quality that's existed since ancient time. Since the oldest texts, like in fact, in the Rig Veda, you're explicitly encouraged to seek wisdom more than wealth. And it's not just an idea specific to Hinduism. That specific idea exists in the Bible, it exists in the Quran, it exists in the Torah. It's not that seeking wealth is admonished by religious texts. It's actually that it's more important to seek wisdom. And you know, like you can, why I said you're a good example of that is like, sure, you have a very, very large podcast. But the way you're running it is like, you're just curious about a lot of things and asking a lot of questions. And I think that's that one quality that's very important.

• 30:45Speaker 02

  So, and I feel like it's the oldest thing, it's the only thing that we have known since ancient time, being curious.

• 30:52Joe Rogan?

  Well, I, I think it's stimulating to people and genuine curiosity is stimulating to other people. When, when someone is genuinely curious about something, I become curious about it. I think it's contagious. And I think that it's, it's also an authentic quality. And I think. There's, there's something about really wanting to know something and being interested in something. And if you're curious, generally you're gonna ask more questions about something so you'll have a deeper understanding of it. So if you're trying to do, whatever you're trying to do, a sport, a game, you'll probably get better at it because you're more curious. Because instead of just assuming things, you'll ask more questions, you'll reexamine things. It's genuine, it's, it's one of the most important human qualities, and to me, it's one of the most attractive human qualities. It's always been.

• 31:37Joe Rogan?

  When I meet curious people, I'm always interested. I'm always like, like, "Tell me what you're curious about, and I'll tell you what I'm curious about. Let's talk." You know, it's, it's, um, and this podcast started out genuinely because of, well, it was a lot of just talking shit with friends. But it also led into, like, one of my very first guests, actual guests, was Graham Hancock. And it's just because I was curious, because I had read Fingerprints of the Gods, and I'd seen him talk, I'd seen speeches, and I'm like, "I wanna know, like, what do you know? What do you think's going on?" And, uh, he's another guy, incredibly curious, and absolutely fascinated with his, his takes on ancient history. He has been talking about this subject a long time.

• 32:22Joe Rogan?

  And when he first, when he first wrote Fingerprints of the Gods, I think that came out in like, I wanna say it was like 97 or 98 or something like that? And I remember reading it, and so many of my friends, you know, educated friends, like, "This is horseshit, why are you paying attention to this?" More and more and more, as time goes on, it's been proven that he's correct. The timelines shifted back, and from the publication of that book, the discovery of Gobekli Tepe and the surrounding area, like, it's like, okay, now we realize, well, there was some crazy shit going on at the very least 11,000 years ago. So we pushed civilization back 5,000 years. So like, and this is just what we found now, and we keep finding things, keep digging, keep looking.

• 33:06Joe Rogan?

  And then you see the stuff that they're finding underneath the pyramid with this radiotomography where they're looking under the pyramid that it seems that there's structures under the pyramid. You've seen that stuff?

• 33:16Speaker 02

  I haven't seen that.

• 33:17Joe Rogan?

  I had the scientist that's involved in it, he's an Italian guy, Filippo Biondi, and he came on the podcast, wonderful accent, almost as good as yours. It was amazing. But he's describing the use of this stuff and that they've used it successfully on known areas in pyramids and other structures and they can, in fact, they, there's a, in Italy, there is a particle collider that is underneath a mountain. And using this technology, which is satellite-based technology, they get an accurate description of this particle collider that's, I think it's 1,200 meters underground? Like, how, how far is that thing underground? We'll find out.

• 34:01Joe Rogan?

  But it's like, deep under stone. And they find, they can get an accurate, like, they can actually give you the dimensions of this particle collider, they have like an image of it. And this same technology is showing that there's these columns underneath the pyramid in various places that are 20 meters wide and they have coils around them. They don't know what the hell they are. And they, the whole structure of this thing, it's not small, it goes almost a kilometer into the ground. There's like this enormous, like, bottom of it and it seems like it's something that's constructed. And so they're like, okay, well, the pyramid is crazy, it's crazy enough.

• 34:44Joe Rogan?

  But if there's something underneath it that's a man-made, or someone made it, that's a kilometer deep into the ground, like, what the fuck are we even talking about? Like, who made this? What, what did they have?

• 34:59Joe Rogan?

  1.2 kilometers into the mountain.

• 35:03Joe Rogan?

  That's nuts. It's a half a fucking mile in it plus into the mountain. And this thing can see through all that and get this accurate depiction of this particle collider. And it's showing with multiple scans, not just one, multiple scans and different technology. The same exact images, the same exact structures underneath this fucking immense two million, three hundred thousand stone structure that almost perfectly aligns to true north, south, east and west. Like what, what was going on? Don't tell me police. Don't tell me copper tools. Like what the fuck was going on? Something crazy. And I have a feeling our simplistic explanation of it is just doing no one any justice.

• 35:48Joe Rogan?

  It's doing no service to history. It's doing no service to our understanding. They've got to be a little bit more open in the fact that they are perplexed. And not just perplexed by stuff like this. This is a 3D print of an actual vase that exists in Egypt that they found that is, they found it in tombs of the old kingdom. This thing was somehow or another, it's made with diorite, so it's incredibly hard stone. And made to like a thousandth of a human hair in, in its, yeah, like crazy dimensions. Like the way the, the precision of it and wasn't turned on a lathe because it has handles. So you look at the handles on the side. Well, you can't carve the, and those are perfect too.

• 36:32Joe Rogan?

  Like the alignment of it, everything. And it's like you just look at it. Oh, it's a vase. No big deal. But no, it's kind of fucking crazy. Like how did they cut that out? There's also these, there's all these core marks in some of the stones that they find in Egypt. And they've analyzed the amount of revolutions per minute that you would have to go through to be able to cut through something and leave these lines. And it defies explanation. Like what is this? This is crazy. This is not sand and copper and just rubbing things. No, this is some insane technology that we don't understand. There's scoop marks out of the bottoms of some of these stones. It's like, what the fuck is this? How'd you scoop rock?

• 37:16Joe Rogan?

  Like it looks like ice cream. Like they just went whoop. Like, what are they doing? There's so many questions.

• 37:23Speaker 02

  What tools did they even have to do all these things?

• 37:26Joe Rogan?

  They had copper. I mean, there's some evidence that they had some iron. And then, I think Tutankhamun had a dagger that was actually made from meteorite, which is interesting. You know, like, when they could find meteorites and make things out of them was very valuable, obviously. But, the... Just the sheer volume of work that they did there. It's... If, like, you look at the Temple and Man, you look at the three major pyramids, you look at all the different temples and all the construction, and the older you go, the deeper into the sand they go, the more complex these things are, which is even weirder. So it seems like civilization after civilization, just... There was probably a rise and fall with their technology as well.

• 38:10Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 38:11Joe Rogan?

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• 38:55Joe Rogan?

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• 39:11Joe Rogan?

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• 39:56Joe Rogan?

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• 40:15Speaker 02

  I think it's incredible that none of this knowledge was properly documented ever. And it's a whole line of work to just go understand, how to even rebuild these things? Leave alone how did they build it?

• 40:28Joe Rogan?

  Well, think about what we're doing, right? So, all of our knowledge is essentially stored on hard drives and paper. Those are the two things that are going to deteriorate the quickest.

• 40:40Speaker 02

  Maybe we should take a dump of the internet and

• 40:43Joe Rogan?

  Put it on a rock.

• 40:44Speaker 02

  Go preserve it somewhere. So that even if our civilization is wiped out and all the data centers are gone or whatever,

• 40:51Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 40:52Speaker 02

  Whoever comes next can go figure it out.

• 40:55Joe Rogan?

  Well, I mean, and then you've got to always assume that even if they found a hard drive, that they would, like, how long would it take for them to back engineer what we did and figure out what these ones and zeros actually mean?

• 41:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:09Joe Rogan?

  That which is one of the most bizarre and fantastic accomplishments of modern civilization. Is that like, this is a terabyte, which is nuts.

• 41:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:20Joe Rogan?

  Like, I don't know what your first computer had.

• 41:23Speaker 02

  I don't remember. Definitely not, not even a gigabyte, probably.

• 41:27Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 41:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:28Joe Rogan?

  Like a few hundred megabytes was your hard drive.

• 41:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I mean, I remember when they first came out with gigabytes, I was like, this is nuts.

• 41:36Speaker 02

  Yeah. You know? Remember like when Gmail launched and gave everybody like free email storage, unlimited email storage? And the bottom sliding bar would just keep increasing in terms of the total allowed size.

• 41:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 41:47Speaker 02

  And that was nuts to me.

• 41:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 41:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, and I think, yeah. We, we take it for granted that we have like infinite RAM and infinite hard disk. And nobody has to worry about like, you know, you, back in those days, you worry about like taking too many photos on your phone.

• 42:01Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 42:02Speaker 02

  Right?

• 42:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 42:03Speaker 02

  And then you have to go delete all the old ones or bad ones.

• 42:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you'd run out of storage on your phone.

• 42:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then you have to buy like an external hard drive to keep storing things.

• 42:11Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I remember those days.

• 42:12Speaker 02

  You keep transferring stuff from your phone to the hard disk.

• 42:14Joe Rogan?

  I remember the old Android phones, you'd get an SD card.

• 42:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:17Joe Rogan?

  You could slip one of those in there and you could store images on that.

• 42:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:21Joe Rogan?

  So you could save space.

• 42:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:23Joe Rogan?

  And all that stuff is so vulnerable. It's so vulnerable. And again, if a completely alien society had to come down and find our hard drives and they went a totally different path of technology, they'd have to back engineer, reverse engineer everything that we did. Try to figure out, you know, what, what, what are we using? What operating system? How's the operating system work? Is it Unix? Is it Linux? Is it like, what is it? How do they do it? It would be a nightmare.

• 42:52Speaker 02

  They would need an advanced AI to like figure it all out for them.

• 42:55Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 42:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. And so, uh, that's just if the hard drive survive, right? So if there's some massive flood, cataclysm, whatever, some, some horrific thing that damages all of our electronics, which is totally possible.

• 43:10Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 43:10Joe Rogan?

  You know, just some solar flare, some intense.

• 43:13Speaker 02

  Or just, just, just another lab leak.

• 43:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, right?

• 43:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:17Joe Rogan?

  Just time. A lab leak in time.

• 43:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. It's nuts. And it, we could go back to zero real quick. And we would basically be like preppers and hunter gatherers.

• 43:29Speaker 02

  It would be hard to reverse engineer everything again.

• 43:31Joe Rogan?

  It would be almost impossible.

• 43:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:33Joe Rogan?

  Which is why I'm really fascinated by the flood, the post-flood timeline. Because if these people like Graham Hancock and a lot of these other folks that have speculated that there was probably a very advanced civilization that went in a completely different direction many thousands of years ago. If you look at like the emergence of like Sumer and you know Mesopotamia and that area, which a lot of people attribute to be the earliest known civilization.

• 44:00Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 44:00Joe Rogan?

  That's around five thousand plus, six thousand years ago, right?

• 44:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, roughly.

• 44:05Joe Rogan?

  So the flood's like eleven thousand years ago, plus. So you're looking at like five thousand years of what?

• 44:13Speaker 02

  It's not even that long in the grand scheme of things.

• 44:16Joe Rogan?

  No, not to the earth, but for people.

• 44:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:18Joe Rogan?

  Pretty fucking long.

• 44:19Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 44:19Joe Rogan?

  Like, think of how long it took us to get our shit together.

• 44:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:22Joe Rogan?

  It took thousands and thousands and thousands of years of people probably being monsters. Just being the worst of the worst.

• 44:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:31Joe Rogan?

  And that's probably the only way they survived. There's probably a lot of cannibalism.

• 44:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:34Joe Rogan?

  There's a lot of murder. There was a lot of like horrific shit going on for five thousand years until people slowly but surely figured out agriculture again.

• 44:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:43Joe Rogan?

  Started building walls, everybody relaxed a little, got some solid weapons to keep people away so you could work on math. And then next thing you know, civilization emerges again. And it goes right, you know, goes right back onto the cycle. And then you start reading in the Rig Veda about stuff that happened thousands of years. You go, oh, what the fuck is this? Like, what happened?

• 45:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:04Joe Rogan?

  And that's my belief.

• 45:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:07Joe Rogan?

  I think there was something going on on earth many, many, many thousands of years before established beginnings of history. That was very bizarre. And probably technology that went in a completely different direction than what we're doing now with combustion engines and circuits and all the different things that we use. They probably figured out some other kind of technology.

• 45:30Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 45:31Joe Rogan?

  Which is totally possible.

• 45:32Speaker 02

  And it's amazing. Like, it's amazing to think of like, what if we could rediscover all of that again?

• 45:37Joe Rogan?

  Yes. Well, I would love to be able to. I would love to just have a, if I could choose one window in time to go back to see what it would look like, I would one hundred percent pick ancient Egypt while they're building.

• 45:51Speaker 02

  The pyramids.

• 45:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Show me what the fuck was going on.

• 45:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:55Joe Rogan?

  There's just, just put me in a big hamster wheel. There's a big plastic bubble where no one could see me. Just let me violate space and time and exist there for just a few minutes. Just let me look. I think that would be the most insane thing that you could see about humans in human history. Yeah. I just, I wanna know what they knew, what they had, what they used.

• 46:16Speaker 05

  Just look in this thing Petra's same time period, at least attributed to. Seven thousand roughly B.C.

• 46:23Joe Rogan?

  Jesus.

• 46:24Speaker 05

  And they, you know, how would you do that?

• 46:27Joe Rogan?

  Right. How?

• 46:28Speaker 02

  The details of all those carvings is insane.

• 46:31Joe Rogan?

  Insane?

• 46:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:32Joe Rogan?

  And what, in seven thousand B.C., what are the tools? What the hell were you using? How did you make a temple out of the side of a fucking mountain? Look at the size of it, man. The size of those columns.

• 46:47Speaker 02

  It would be hard to do anything like this even today.

• 46:50Joe Rogan?

  It would be incredibly difficult, insanely time consuming.

• 46:54Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah, the Kalyasa temple, by the way, I don't have it up right now, but in sixteen fifty or so, someone sent a thousand people to try to destroy it, and after three years of doing nothing, they stopped. They barely made a dent on a couple statues.

• 47:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, a lot of times when invasions happen in India, like.

• 47:12Speaker 05

  They tried really hard to fuck it up and couldn't.

• 47:14Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 47:17Speaker 02

  That's very robust.

• 47:22Joe Rogan?

  That's a great way to describe it. It's just, there's so much of that stuff that's so interesting. Because it's so undeniable. It's so undeniable in its scale, so undeniable in its complexity, and the planning, and the the understanding that you, you had to have a, a deep knowledge of geometry, of measurement, of, you had to have accurate. Yes, everything.

• 47:49Speaker 02

  Sturdiness, like, resist like calamities, like earthquakes, floods.

• 47:53Joe Rogan?

  What tools are you using?

• 47:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:57Joe Rogan?

  Like, how are you doing this?

• 47:59Speaker 02

  How are you coordinating all these people?

• 48:01Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 48:01Speaker 02

  Getting them to do stuff. I mean, sure, my, conditions must have been very harsher, like, I'm sure people didn't really have a choice but to do these things, because back in those days, like, the only way you could take care of your food and clothing and shelter is like, you commit yourself as a laborer, laborer to the state, to the kingdom. But you could also ask like what gave them the initiative or drive to go do these things?

• 48:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, that description is perhaps of a later time. We don't even really know what civilization was like when these were constructed.

• 48:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:33Joe Rogan?

  The real, the real problem is the material science. The real problem is like you, there's a lot of things that you have to have to make those things. It's not as simple as a sculpture, like Michelangelo making a sculpture out of something that's like fairly easy to carve into as far as stone goes. Now, this is, the scale is, it's so undeniable. They're like something, something, some piece of our understanding is missing.

• 49:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I mean, it, it, it, like, looking at all this, like, everyone should just be like a lot more humble, right? Like, we don't actually know that much, like, what we know is like so little, like, whatever, like, the same thing as what Socrates said. What we know is very, very little. And the only thing we, we should all strive to be is just be curious. And I think there's a lot of tendency for people to like, think like, oh, like, we have all this advanced technology. We're so amazing, like, look at us, and it's like, wait, hold on, like, you don't even understand what happened thousands of years ago. And there's so much out there to just go and explore and learn and like, get better at understanding more.

• 49:43Joe Rogan?

  What is this place?

• 49:44Speaker 02

  This is, yeah, this is unreal.

• 49:47Joe Rogan?

  This is called the Elora Caves, timeless wonder carved in stone?

• 49:51Speaker 05

  They're all, I think that's all like kind of the same area.

• 49:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, it's the same Elora Cave in the Shiva Temple that you saw.

• 49:57Joe Rogan?

  Look at that, my god, look at this stuff, it's insane. And again, there's no steel back then.

• 50:06Speaker 02

  It's actually really symmetrical. It, it's not even like, can you go back to the first one with the symmetrical top? Yeah, look at the symmetry at the top.

• 50:19Joe Rogan?

  That's nuts.

• 50:19Speaker 05

  It looks like that mall in New York they made where the World Trade.

• 50:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but way more robust. I mean, how? What, what, what were you, they, you, this is the thing, it's like the material science aspect of it.

• 50:37Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 50:37Joe Rogan?

  It's like, you don't have the ability to do, look at that top one. Go to that top one again, the one that you just had, Jamie? Yeah, that one. Look at, that's crazy, man. I mean, I am just blown away when I see stuff like that. My mind just starts racing. And I just think, how did you do this? Who, who was involved? How was it planned? How is it so symmetrical? What were the tools? Like, what were the tools, man?

• 51:06Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 51:07Joe Rogan?

  If you don't have steel, you don't have, what are you using? How'd you do?

• 51:12Speaker 05

  I mean, most of it is done with stone, clearly, right?

• 51:15Joe Rogan?

  I guess, I guess, I doubt it. I bet they had something else. I bet they had something else that, over time, eroded, just like metal would today. I mean, if you left a shovel outside today, and you came back to that same spot 500 years from now, there's nothing. That shovel's gone, right?

• 51:35Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 51:36Joe Rogan?

  And you've got to assume that these many thousand-year-old temples that were carved out of a fucking mountain, whatever tools they used, probably got absorbed by the earth. And the only thing that's remaining, yeah.

• 51:48Speaker 05

  It's given me a weird thought, like, when they make a big building downtown, though, they only bring the crane in for a temporary period of time. And there's only so many cranes on the planet currently, too, so.

• 51:57Joe Rogan?

  Right. True.

• 51:58Speaker 05

  You take it, you move it, you go, take it to the next spot.

• 52:01Joe Rogan?

  Yep. Yeah, true.

• 52:02Speaker 05

  Yeah, I don't know.

• 52:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, especially something like this, like, if they had heavy equipment and machinery and whatever the fuck they were using, they probably moved it and then moved it out, and then it probably rotted away, and now it's gone. If there was machinery. If there wasn't, like, there must have been something else. Some other kind of, like, some technology that we haven't even imagined.

• 52:23Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 52:26Joe Rogan?

  But it's like their their commitment to art too was so fascinating. Cause these aren't just structures, they're

• 52:34Speaker 02

  Fashion projects.

• 52:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah intensely beautiful.

• 52:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:37Joe Rogan?

  Intensely ornate.

• 52:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:39Joe Rogan?

  So it's not, it's not just that they wanted to build like a functional structure.

• 52:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:44Joe Rogan?

  That a good architecture, no, it's this, it's a fascinating artwork. And it's so intricate, there's so many different features and so many different images of, of different people and beings and animals and elephants and

• 53:00Speaker 02

  There's one more temple like you could pull out like it's called the Tangier Temple.

• 53:04Joe Rogan?

  Oh, I've seen that one too. Yeah, yeah.

• 53:06Speaker 02

  That was done more recently in the, in the age of the Cholas and it's, it's pretty incredible.

• 53:11Joe Rogan?

  When did they do that one?

• 53:14Speaker 02

  I don't know the exact number, but more recent than the ones that you saw.

• 53:18Joe Rogan?

  All of them are nuts, man. And then there's stuff like that all over the world. Whoa.

• 53:23Speaker 02

  This was done as a, as a project by the king. To, to basically make a name for himself.

• 53:29Joe Rogan?

  Wow. That's incredible.

• 53:34Joe Rogan?

  Is that multiple pieces of stone or did he carve that whole thing out of stone too?

• 53:39Speaker 02

  Probably multiple pieces.

• 53:41Joe Rogan?

  So that's actually like construction.

• 53:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:44Joe Rogan?

  Not like removal. The other ones are, it's essentially a, a giant sculpture. Wow, it's so pretty. Look how geometric it is too.

• 53:56Speaker 02

  That's what amazes me. Like they didn't actually have all these simulations and CAD tools and all these things.

• 54:01Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 54:02Speaker 02

  And

• 54:04Joe Rogan?

  What year was this made, Jamie? Does it say?

• 54:08Joe Rogan?

  It's just so incredible how much of this stuff exists where it's really baffling. Like I just found out recently that the Aztecs didn't build those temples. That they found them.

• 54:20Speaker 02

  Really?

• 54:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. They found like the Tenochtitlan, they, they call it the place where the gods were born. The Aztecs found it and uncovered it and then on the, when, uh, is it Tenochtitlan or, uh, Teotihuacan, whichever one it was on the consecration day. When they were done with like whatever they were doing with it to celebrate, they killed somewhere between 20,000 and 80,000 people in four days.

• 54:50Speaker 02

  Damn.

• 54:51Joe Rogan?

  Not exactly the mindset of the type of people that would construct something like that.

• 54:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:55Joe Rogan?

  So those are the people that found it and it might have been sitting there for a thousand years. And then they came along and said, oh, this is cool. Let's live here. Okay, but what was the society that lived there before them? And where are they? And what happened? And how they do this? And why'd they do it? And why did they have it aligned with the constellations? Like, what were they doing?

• 55:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's some of the, some of the calculations are pretty, pretty amazing. Like, how they timed it, how they positioned it, how they cared about planetary positions and stuff like that. Sure, like, some of it could even be pseudoscience, but whatever. I think just the level of like calculations they were making back in those days without, you know, powerful computers is just outstanding.

• 55:40Joe Rogan?

  It's just nuts and it doesn't make sense. It's like, okay, they're making it without powerful computers, so what are they using?

• 55:47Speaker 02

  I mean, at one point, the word "computer" just meant "human."

• 55:51Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 55:51Speaker 02

  Like, human beings would be doing the calculations. That was their only job, like, to literally like multiply two numbers. Or like to, to make some, astronomers were actually the first mathematicians. The term mathematician and astronomer were used synonymously at one point.

• 56:06Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 56:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:08Joe Rogan?

  Why is that? Why, why studying of the stars and math?

• 56:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, because like studying the stars involved making a lot of geometry calculations. And that was kind of actually one of the first set of mathematicians in India. People like Aryabhatta, Bhaskara, all these guys were actually astronomers too. They were not just mathematicians. And Aryabhatta was earliest to like, like the idea of using zeros. And then he had a lot of like contributions in geometry. And he was doing all this like just because he was interested in astronomy.

• 56:46Joe Rogan?

  Isn't there evidence of Pythagorean theorem in ancient, is it ancient Sumerian?

• 56:55Speaker 02

  Is it?

• 56:57Joe Rogan?

  It's some ain't some something that predates Pythagoras.

• 57:01Speaker 02

  Interesting. My my theory is that even though it was not formulated as a Pythagorean theorem, like I'm sure people had to understand concepts of science, sines and cosines and like, you know, whatever is the right angle for the right incline to get this right level of like geometry. You need to you needed to have some implicit understanding of it to build these kind of structures. There's no way you could do it without that.

• 57:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, a hundred percent. And you have to have incredible measurement tools, like not just the actual mathematics. Okay, the oldest known evidence of Pythagorean theorem dates from old Babylonian clay tablets from about nineteen hundred to sixteen hundred BCE, roughly one thousand years before Pythagoras. Isn't that wild? Like, how? How? Clay tablets often cited, uh, use what we now call the Pythagorean theorem to complete, to compute rather the diagonal of rectangles and squares, including an excellent approximation. Look at this. This is nuts, man. Vedic ritual texts explicitly states the rule equivalent, I don't know how to say that. What is that?

• 58:08Speaker 02

  A squared, B squared, C squared.

• 58:12Joe Rogan?

  For the diagonal of a rectangle that includes numerical examples predating or roughly contemporary with classical Greek mathematics. So completely different parts of the world.

• 58:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:22Joe Rogan?

  And they're coming up with the same stuff.

• 58:23Speaker 02

  Exactly. Because they're all curious, that's it.

• 58:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, they're all curious and eventually all curiosity leads to truth or some form of it.

• 58:32Speaker 02

  I would argue that anything, anything that's of impact in the world has only been done by curious people. In hindsight, we label those people as successful, as smart or rich, but the common trait across all of them has been like curious.

• 58:48Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's certainly a powerful trait. And people that aren't curious are not fun.

• 58:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, they are interesting, so because of that, they don't attract other smarter, interesting people. And therefore, they won't be able to do something very meaningful in the world. So it's kind of like,

• 59:08Speaker 02

  it's less about, and it applies to your personal relationships and personal life, too. It's not just about professional success. Like, you have a more fulfilling life with your wife or your kids if you're a more curious person. You ask them more questions, you take interest in them, right? So that's the one quality everybody wants in personal relationships is like taking interest in them and like actually understanding them better. Or like being curious about common things. And so it's not just, you know, being curious leads to success. It's more that people around you want you to be successful. If you're curious, because you will have more compounding and fulfilling relationships.

• 59:47Joe Rogan?

  I would agree with that. Yeah, I'd say it's one of the more important qualities of human beings. I mean, it's led to everything that we have today. All curiosity has led to all of our architecture, math.

• 59:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:58Joe Rogan?

  Everything, art, everything.

• 1:00:00Speaker 02

  The transistor, like, you know the story of the transistor?

• 1:00:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:03Speaker 02

  So Bell Labs was basically employing as many, like, history-adjusted as many telephone engineers back then as the number of software engineers today. But only three people cared enough to question whether you should use these really hot giant vacuum tubes for amplifying telephone signals. So vacuum tubes were very big, power-hungry and very hot. And so they were not fall-tolerant, and it's very expensive. And so three people questioned the need for that and came up with the idea of the transistor to amplify current. And that was the Nobel Prize-winning discovery. And not just that it was useful to amplify telephone signals. It basically led to the rise of modern computing and

• 1:00:46Speaker 02

  we wouldn't have an iPhone like this today if not for those three people.

• 1:00:50Joe Rogan?

  Do you know what the tinfoil hat conspiracy theory about transistors is?

• 1:00:53Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:00:54Joe Rogan?

  That they are back-engineered from the Roswell crash, along with fiber optics.

• 1:01:01Speaker 02

  Tell me more.

• 1:01:02Joe Rogan?

  So, uh, we read this on the podcast. Remember, Jamie, there's the two scientists that were attributed. There's this one scientist that said they weren't even remotely exceptional guys and that they gave them the credit for this so that they didn't have to reveal the true nature of where this technology came from.

• 1:01:18Speaker 02

  I see. Interesting.

• 1:01:19Joe Rogan?

  So, again, tinfoil hat securely on our heads. This is not something I believe.

• 1:01:26Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:01:26Joe Rogan?

  This is just something that's fun. Um, there's a few inventions that came out of that time period, roughly after 1947, that are weird. And one of them is fiber optics and one of them is a transistor. And these are supposedly attributed to back engineering programs. So the Roswell crash, I don't know if you ever paid any attention to it, it's a real weird one. Because the cover of the Roswell Daily Record said that the government has a crashed disc that landed in the desert, a bunch of witnesses, a bunch of people saw it. It's also people that saw, um, supposedly saw physical bodies of these creatures and supposedly, uh,

• 1:02:08Joe Rogan?

  again, who knows what's true. But Truman went to the site, he visited it, and then the planes, two separate planes, were flown to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, uh, which was, uh, I think it was just Wright Base back then. I don't think it was Wright-Patterson. But they, they flew them out and the idea was, this material was so important, they didn't want to risk one plane crashing. So they flew it in two different planes. And that this stuff has always been known to be stored at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. That's what everybody always talks about. And then a lot of it was moved to Bell Labs.

• 1:02:46Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 1:02:47Joe Rogan?

  And there was a company called the American Computer Company. And back in the day, the American Computer Company was just like, it was a consumer website where you could go and say, "Oh, I need a Windows computer that does this, that, and the other thing." And you could just put in whatever your specs were and they would build it for you. They owned a whole section of their website dedicated to Bell Labs and back engineered UFO technology. And all they talked about in this one, like whoever ran it was like a fucking kook. I don't know. Is that still around? Yeah, American computer companies is still around?

• 1:03:20Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 1:03:21Joe Rogan?

  So this is like the nineteen nineties.

• 1:03:23Speaker 02

  So you're saying your, your, your, your theory, I mean, not that you believe in it, but your theory is that

• 1:03:29Speaker 02

  the transistor was not like invented, it was known and it was given to the.

• 1:03:32Joe Rogan?

  There's apparently a giant leap between the first ideas of the transistor and then what it, what, what actually came about and how much money had to be spent to create it uh, off of this leap. This was this assertion by these scientists that were trying to examine this. The thing about Bell Labs is there's a, a military base right outside of Bell Labs. And they said, well, that military base is to guard New York City, but New York City is quite a flight away, but Bell Labs is right there.

• 1:04:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:04:01Joe Rogan?

  And they were working on some deep, dark shit at Bell Labs for sure, because I've had a bunch of people on that were talking about, uh, remote viewing exercises that they were doing out of Bell Labs. You know, we've had a bunch of people that came on and, and talked about various programs that were going on that were like top secret programs that were happening that were being run through Bell Labs. Uh, there's some weirdness to that place, like real weirdness.

• 1:04:25Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 1:04:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and it's fun.

• 1:04:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:04:28Joe Rogan?

  The idea that like, you, you know, that.

• 1:04:31Speaker 02

  Because it, it, it, it definitely feels very disconnected, like, okay, like you were using all these vacuum tubes.

• 1:04:39Speaker 02

  And then suddenly you're like, okay, like what if we just use semiconductors? Okay, that, that, there's definitely a pretty far drift from what you were doing currently to what you're supposed to do. And, um, um, and also the, the, the idea of the first transistor and what ended up being used in chips. The junction transistor are quite different too. So they're like big leaps in terms of what the core idea was. It's not an incremental change. The way I thought about it was like, okay, that's like tens of years of work. And that's why they made a big change. And so if you actually looked into the individual milestones they had, maybe it would have looked pretty different. But your conspiracy theory is pretty interesting, like.

• 1:05:22Joe Rogan?

  It's always fun.

• 1:05:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:24Joe Rogan?

  Um, and, and also, there's just too many stories of this. And David Grush has, you know, on oath said that they, there are back engineering programs and he was read into these and that they've been around for a long time. But this is the assertion of that movie, The Age of Disclosure, that the real problem is that they have misappropriated funds and lied to Congress. And so they come out and tell you, okay, we do have this program. Well, guess what? Everybody goes to jail because you guys are a bunch of liars. And you've been stealing money and you've been doing it, whatever you want to do with this money. I don't know, like, how much, how much oversight is there on back engineering UFO programs? You know, so probably a lot of people get in trouble, a lot of people go to jail.

• 1:06:05Joe Rogan?

  On top of that, these things are all being done by weapons manufacturers, right? Like, where are you gonna bring them to? Well, you're gonna bring them to Lockheed Martin or you're gonna bring them to, you know, Rocketdyne or it's gonna be someone that does that kind of work.

• 1:06:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:20Joe Rogan?

  You're, you're not gonna do it on your, it's not gonna be like, we'll do it. No, you're gonna have to bring it to people that already make spaceships or bring it to people that already make jets.

• 1:06:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:27Joe Rogan?

  And so they have a massive competitive advantage over any other company that's doing it. So then there's other companies that also had contracts with the United States government, they can sue. And so he lays out all the problems with disclosure. And their assertion is that the only thing, what we need, if we really want to find out the truth, is we're gonna need widespread amnesty for all these people that were involved. My problem with that is, that's what I would say too, if I had been stealing money for decades and decades, I'd be like, all right, we need amnesty. And then I'll tell you where all this stuff is. I'm like, how do we know what this stuff is, whether or not these are just top secret military programs with advanced propulsion technology that's unavailable to the public?

• 1:07:12Joe Rogan?

  And they're gonna say that it's aliens and they back engineered this and they did that, like. They clearly don't want to tell people. They don't want people to know. I think a large part of it is probably because they could get in trouble. But I think also a large part of it is because it's fun to keep secrets from people.

• 1:07:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:29Joe Rogan?

  Especially when you're the government. Why tell them? Fuck those people.

• 1:07:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:32Joe Rogan?

  Fuck them. They don't even know UFOs are real. Meanwhile, you know, we're going into a bunker in the middle of the mountain and we're remote viewing. You know, it's, it's probably, there's probably a lot of fun involved in having access to information that most people would kill for.

• 1:07:48Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, there's so much information that um, we just, we just don't have access to.

• 1:07:54Joe Rogan?

  Which brings me to this question. With, it seems like one of the things that's happening with, uh, both with AI and with technology in general, is that you have more and more access to information and more and more answers to questions than ever before.

• 1:08:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:11Joe Rogan?

  At a certain point in time, there's gonna be no bottleneck.

• 1:08:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:16Joe Rogan?

  And we're gonna know everything about everything.

• 1:08:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:18Joe Rogan?

  So how is anyone in government gonna keep a secret? How is any corruption ever gonna be possible? At a certain point in time, all of it will get uncovered. Like, it's much more difficult to commit murder now with DNA evidence, right? Back in the eighteen hundreds, like, I didn't see nothing. I wasn't there. And then you're free. Like, now, they do your fingerprints. Now, they get your DNA. Now, there's flock cameras. There's like, more and more and more. It's harder to get away with things.

• 1:08:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:48Joe Rogan?

  So it seems like to me, like, whatever they have, whatever anybody has, ultimately, there's gonna come a point in time where there's so much data and so much information, and you could run all your questions. Like, there's an AI fact checker for politicians now.

• 1:09:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:02Joe Rogan?

  So while a politician is giving a speech, you can run an AI fact checker and in real time, it will tell you whether or not these people are full of shit. This, it seems like the direction is there's not gonna be anybody full of shit in the future, because it's not gonna be possible.

• 1:09:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, the government still would have access to things that the human beings wouldn't have access to. Like, like, like, regular people.

• 1:09:24Speaker 02

  And particularly with defense related, weapons related. Like, for example, uh, when they did the Venezuelan thing. I don't think people in Venezuela even understood like what even those weapons were.

• 1:09:39Joe Rogan?

  Probably we did.

• 1:09:40Speaker 02

  They, they, they were described as like, yeah, they were described as something, the, the literal words used were like alien-like technology. So we, even we didn't know that, um, the United States had access to, uh, that quality of defense technology until that incident happened. So there are obviously going to be secrets, right? Especially the highest stakes things. Um, I would say like, building frontier AI models is similar to that. Um, of course, as more and more models are getting open source. I think the knowledge is diffusing, but still, uh, the, the true amount of details you need to actually train a really amazing frontier reasoning capability model. It's still not like widely diffused.

• 1:10:26Speaker 02

  So I, my, my things, my, my, my hypothesis is that, um, whatever is extremely high stakes. Will still not be widely diffused. It's, it's, it, it, at, at least there'll be enough structures in place to keep it secret.

• 1:10:41Joe Rogan?

  Forever?

• 1:10:42Speaker 02

  Not forever, but for a while.

• 1:10:44Joe Rogan?

  For a while?

• 1:10:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:45Joe Rogan?

  That's the thing.

• 1:10:46Speaker 02

  Long-term, sure, like, things do get out and people do understand.

• 1:10:49Joe Rogan?

  But it feels like, long-term is what I'm looking at, like, look, when we're looking at history, we're talking in these, like, when we're looking at all these different temples and all these different things, we're talking about thousands and thousands of years. And thousands of year time span in between each individual one. With our world, we're talking about massive change in two hundred years. Like, this country's two hundred and fifty years old. Think about how kooky that is.

• 1:11:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:15Joe Rogan?

  That is a blink of an eye in history.

• 1:11:16Speaker 02

  But do we, do we understand everything that happened in the United States?

• 1:11:19Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:11:20Speaker 02

  Exactly, so, there are still some details that are

• 1:11:22Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 1:11:23Speaker 02

  Hidden from us, like, we, we don't fully understand everything, right?

• 1:11:26Joe Rogan?

  For now.

• 1:11:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:27Joe Rogan?

  But my question is, as time goes on, two hundred and fifty years from now, is it even possible to keep any secrets from anybody?

• 1:11:38Joe Rogan?

  And is that a good thing? It might be a good thing. It sounds horrible to people because they're like, oh my god, what about privacy? Right, but also what about lies?

• 1:11:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:47Joe Rogan?

  No more lies? Like, everyone's gonna know what you're thinking? Everyone's gonna know everything people do all the time?

• 1:11:54Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, if you're a true surveillance state, obviously, there are no secrets.

• 1:11:58Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:12:00Speaker 02

  Except about the government itself.

• 1:12:02Joe Rogan?

  That's the problem.

• 1:12:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:12:04Joe Rogan?

  Does it bottleneck with the government? Or does it get to a point where there, you can't even have government secrets? Because as technology evolves and as human civilization evolves, secrets will be less and less, not just necessary, but secrets will be problematic. Because there'll be an impediment to knowledge. There'll be impediment to understanding the true, the true scope of what the world is. Like, the true nature of all of our various moving parts.

• 1:12:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, as long as the human quality, the intrinsic human quality of curiosity and truth-seekingness, which is, you know, universal, it's existed ever since we've known human beings. If that continues and that continues to be the case, then people will have enough incentives to figure out the truth.

• 1:12:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:48Speaker 02

  And if something is actually hard to get to, it only motivates you more to actually go and find it.

• 1:12:54Joe Rogan?

  For sure. But so my question is, where does this all go? You know, and you obviously work in AI. And when you think about AI, and when you think about just technology in general, and you extrapolate, you just take it from here and you just plot it out. Like, what is a possible scenario of 250 years from now? Like, what does it even look like? What does the United States look like at 500 years old?

• 1:13:19Speaker 02

  It's very hard to know. I'll be very honest. I think it's very hard to know even five years from now how it's gonna look like.

• 1:13:26Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 1:13:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:27Joe Rogan?

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• 1:15:36Joe Rogan?

  Visit betterhelp.com to explore your payment options. That's better, H E L P, dot com. Five years ago was like...

• 1:15:45Speaker 02

  Five years ago, whoever is the topmost in AI, I don't even consider myself like that, but whoever is at the most frontier level of decision-making in AI, five years ago, I don't think they predicted the exact state we are in today. Nobody did. If they did, they would have already procured all the compute and like, you know, manufactured all the chips, bought out all the fabs. They have done all that, right? Just this counterfactual. Everyone's like bottleneck by not having enough compute and like we have, we don't have enough chips. We don't have enough power. These are all the problems that if you invite anybody in AI and ask, what is a bottleneck in AI today? And everybody would say power. I think Jensen was here and he said the same thing, right?

• 1:16:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:25Speaker 02

  But, okay, like if you predicted this exact state five years before,

• 1:16:32Speaker 02

  wouldn't you have secured enough power and started building more power plants yourself and started getting permits? And like started like planning out capacity? No, nobody did that. Nobody, everything's reactive to the demand that we're having today, so.

• 1:16:43Joe Rogan?

  And that's just five years?

• 1:16:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's just five years. So when you ask me to predict 250 years, like I just have to honestly say I don't know.

• 1:16:50Joe Rogan?

  Do you ever sit back and think about it, though?

• 1:16:52Speaker 02

  I do think about it.

• 1:16:53Joe Rogan?

  What it could be?

• 1:16:53Speaker 02

  I don't think about it. So there are like a lot of fun, I, I, I use perplexity a lot for these kind of things. Especially this new feature computer inside it and um, one, one, one, one, this is just for hypothetical scenarios. Let's say there is an AGI, right? I, I've seen you ask a lot of people about this and um, and um, a lot of conventional answers is like, oh, like we'll just become managers of the AIs, don't worry. But um, if, if the price of cognition is the price of compute, managing an AI is also pretty much doable by the AI itself. Because it's, the bottleneck is not like unique cognition capability there.

• 1:17:36Speaker 02

  So the value of the society will automatically shift to what is scarce. And fundamentally, what has been scarce is like asking like high quality questions about things. Okay, like what if like we just completely spend all our time understanding the past? Like that's an interesting endeavor. It was not cool before, but it'll, it'll become cool again. And like we usually used to view like archaeology or history is not something that's like worth having a career in because it doesn't pay well. But what if it actually starts paying you a lot more? Now that like actual knowledge works being done by AIs and like it's all mundane and all the price of that is basically a zero.

• 1:18:15Joe Rogan?

  Right, and archaeology would be one of the few things that it wouldn't have access to because it doesn't have the actual ground. It can't get into the ground and do the scans and.

• 1:18:25Speaker 02

  No, let's say we have like robots to go do that.

• 1:18:27Joe Rogan?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:18:28Speaker 02

  But but you're still gonna be the one probing.

• 1:18:31Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:18:31Speaker 02

  Because you have incomplete information all the time. Even the idea of like, okay, let's go explore this particular area. Let's go understand better. Or let's let's go try to reverse engineer this. Let's go try to build this again. Or how would it be if we wanted to do the same thing on the moon? There are like so many interesting projects to work on for us. As long as we are, we stay curious and we stay interested in like a lot of things that we've done before and trying to understand like civilization. That I'm not really concerned about like what things we get to do. We might be doing a lot more cool things for what it's worth. Like, I don't know if anybody will be like coming and telling you that, oh, it's so cool to like open an Excel sheet every day and make financial models. Compared to like.

• 1:19:12Joe Rogan?

  There's gotta be somebody out there that likes that.

• 1:19:14Speaker 02

  I mean, that that's something about like the task you do and and and what you get paid for, like what is the job title, blah, blah, blah. And some people associate their personal worth with like where they work at and how much they get paid. And I think that that thing is gonna collapse in in in a world where like the price of all that cognition is gonna be the price of compute.

• 1:19:36Joe Rogan?

  What do you think happens to people if a large percentage of jobs get replaced by AI?

• 1:19:45Speaker 02

  I think they'll find new things. We've always gravitated towards things that are scarce, because that's where the value lies. And so if if um you know, have you, one interesting analogy is um, have you, do you, the Gulf states, where there's an abundance of resources and export their resources to other states and that pays for the whole state. You know how like they they offer everybody um free electricity, subsidized health, subsidized education, and like no taxes? When I first went to Dubai, like in um, almost like twenty years ago.

• 1:20:27Speaker 02

  They told me like people don't pay taxes here and nobody pays for electricity here. And education is like super cheap. And I was like, wait, how is that real? And, and, and, and the way that's real is that, I mean, of course, Texas also has no taxes and you know, any well-run state can do this. But the way it's happening is that because the government provides you all these things, it becomes a run TA state. Like you offer political acquiescence to the state. And what ended up happening is citizens there expect the state to find them jobs. Expect the state to take care of like job displacement for them. So they don't worry. So it made them a little more lazy. So that's not a good future to have.

• 1:21:11Speaker 02

  Where some people talk about AI subsidies and AI dividends that get paid to everybody. I think we need to do some form of that, but that, that in entirety won't solve the problem.

• 1:21:22Joe Rogan?

  Right, well, the thing about peo- human nature is sort of undeniable. And if you give people the ability to be lazy, a large percentage of people will take that.

• 1:21:33Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:21:34Joe Rogan?

  A large percentage won't though.

• 1:21:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:36Joe Rogan?

  There's gonna be enough people that are inspired to do something and they say, okay, well, now my basic needs are taken care of. Let me pursue my actual interests.

• 1:21:43Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:21:44Joe Rogan?

  And find purpose in that.

• 1:21:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:45Joe Rogan?

  Cause that's, a lot of people find purpose in whatever their occupation is.

• 1:21:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:49Joe Rogan?

  And if we can shift that to finding purpose in which your actual interests are.

• 1:21:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:54Joe Rogan?

  And then really pursuing something, whatever it is in that, then you'll still have meaning in your life. And we've just become a-

• 1:22:01Speaker 02

  Keeps coming back to staying curious.

• 1:22:03Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:22:03Speaker 02

  And, and, and finding value in your relationships, your, your, the family, caring for each other. If you ask a lot of retired people, actually retired people is a good demographic to understand what would happen. What, what are things people find meaning in after like work's taken off them? And all, majority of the answers are always like family, caring, you know, personal, like, like relationships and community. Like, these are the things retired people keep doing to like, you know, keep themselves active and wake up every day and have something to look for. So all those things will become even more important at a time when like work itself doesn't mean much.

• 1:22:45Speaker 02

  Doesn't mean humans won't be status seeking. I think we'll still be. But status is not gonna come from whether you're working at, you know, like a particular famous bank or tech company or whatever. It'll be driven by like, um, how interesting you are. Are you interesting to talk to? When I can talk to an AI, like, despite that, are you still interesting to talk to? Are there certain things I get out of talking to you that completely change my perspective about like a bunch of things? Or is it just fun to hang around you? Um, can we have a compounded relationship together? And, and I think, again, it goes, goes back to like, you know, being curious about things.

• 1:23:23Joe Rogan?

  Well, this is best case scenario, right? Worst case scenario is civilization upheaval, chaos, civil war.

• 1:23:30Speaker 02

  And it's possible, it's possible even without an AI.

• 1:23:33Joe Rogan?

  Right, yeah. Look, we've gotten real close to it a couple of times.

• 1:23:36Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:23:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:37Speaker 02

  So, and, and, and, and we did not need an AGI like scenario for a civilizational collapse in the past, as you've clearly seen.

• 1:23:45Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:23:46Speaker 02

  A calamity can just take out all of us, wipe out everything.

• 1:23:50Joe Rogan?

  Sure, especially natural ones.

• 1:23:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's why I'm not a big fan of like, everybody claiming that, um, the AI is gonna, you know, kill us. So like, AGI is gonna destroy humanity and like, it's too dangerous and we all need to stop doing these things. But at the same time, continuing to feel always status interest and continuing to make money. You, you, you have to have one's consistent position. My position is that, um, whether AI or not, I think being curious is gonna serve you really well. Um, I think it's gonna help you have a better life. And, uh, there are two paths to curiosity, one that can kill it and one that can supercharge it. In my opinion, the one that kills curiosity is algorithmic feeds.

• 1:24:30Speaker 02

  Like, the, the brain rot that you're fed every day with just, you know, this continuous doom scrolling, that's bad. Um, and the one that can supercharge it is AI. Okay, like, now that you could just ask whatever you want, if everybody has like a pull it up JME for them, you know?

• 1:24:48Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:24:49Speaker 02

  And, and that's amazing. So, okay, so all you have to do is. Be curious about a lot of different things. And, and of course, talk to interesting people, engage in interesting activities together. If money is no longer an issue, you can fund fashion projects yourself. You don't have to like require government funding or

• 1:25:06Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:25:07Speaker 02

  venture funding. Like, what if you just wanted to build a mini cave yourself? Okay, like you find a piece of land somewhere. There's a lot of land in America. Way more land than we know what to do with it. And, and, and surely we can build a lot of interesting things there.

• 1:25:23Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's a good glass half full scenario. And one of the things that I keep coming to is this whole idea of people working and making money and having careers and having portfolios and bank accounts and all that. This is all very recent in human history.

• 1:25:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:43Joe Rogan?

  Very recent.

• 1:25:44Speaker 02

  Very recent. It's very recent.

• 1:25:45Joe Rogan?

  But we've become accustomed to this as a way of life and we

• 1:25:48Speaker 02

  And Microsoft, Microsoft built this concept of a knowledge worker because they wanted to sell more office software.

• 1:25:54Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 1:25:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, like this whole idea of putting a PC on every desk and, and making you like glued to the PC was there. That, that was Bill Gates' vision, put a PC on every desk.

• 1:26:04Joe Rogan?

  That fucking wizard. What a, what an incredible accomplishment because boy, did they nail it.

• 1:26:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, so it was not about making computing like beautiful or anything in the way like Steve Jobs envisioned it.

• 1:26:16Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:26:17Speaker 02

  It was just about like

• 1:26:17Joe Rogan?

  Selling computers.

• 1:26:18Speaker 02

  Sell more software, sell more computers because that way you can sell more software. And, and if you sell more software, you, you become rich. And, and, and, and the company just was a machine that was just, you know, built a, essentially a large sales machine that's built to sell software. And, and, and, and now they sell cloud, but whatever. Like that, that, that's essentially the, the reason that like, you know, we all got trained to use software. People went and did tutorials on how to use Excel, how to use Word, how to use all these email tools. And then now that became the upscaling you needed to go work at a different companies and then write code and like whatever, right? So that, if that part's going to be done by an AI, it's not necessarily a bad thing.

• 1:27:04Speaker 02

  Because this is not actually the way you feel like real purpose and fulfillment in your own life. If if you were never exposed to that, whatever you had is the intrinsic curiosity in you.

• 1:27:17Speaker 02

  That that's probably what you should be doing.

• 1:27:18Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, there could be a completely new way to live life.

• 1:27:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:21Joe Rogan?

  Where we're not dependent upon labor for basic needs. And but then it's gonna be incumbent upon people, they're gonna have to figure out a way to be either self-starting or we're gonna have to expose people to things that are gonna excite their curiosity and make that a mandate.

• 1:27:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, it it has to start from schools.

• 1:27:42Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:42Speaker 02

  And as long as we keep rewarding people for having answers. Instead of asking interesting questions, it's it's gonna be a difficult change. Like in schools, you're always rewarded for being smart based on whether you have answers like to any different questions. Like who cares, like all those twenty questions can be answered by AIs. Have you ever like flipped the script where you say, okay, like I'm gonna, the smartest person in the room is the one who has the most interesting questions?

• 1:28:10Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:28:11Speaker 02

  Okay, like what what kind of students can you cultivate based on that? Like imagine if the room had no pressure to always know the answer. But the freedom to ask a lot of questions.

• 1:28:23Joe Rogan?

  Right, because sometimes if someone asks a question, it'll it does.

• 1:28:28Joe Rogan?

  Make you pause and go, I never even thought of that, but that's it. Like that's the question.

• 1:28:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:28:33Joe Rogan?

  And it takes a, I mean, so many people have so many different perspectives, which is one of the more interesting things that I've experienced doing this podcast is I get to talk to so many different people and they vary so widely. There's so many different ways of looking at the world and so many different ways of engaging with the world and so many different things that people are fascinated with that they spent their entire life studying and and pursuing. It's like you give us this rich tapestry of the human experience that's just. I would have never been exposed to this many people.

• 1:29:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:29:07Joe Rogan?

  And in turn, I've been able to expose these people to all these other folks that are just listening and watching right now. And it's fucking incredible. And it's such a, for me, it's like the perfect job. I've never had a job that more aligns with my own personality as much as this. Because I've always been that kid, like, shut the fuck up with all the questions. I've always been that kid.

• 1:29:28Speaker 02

  That's the system, right? It's not, it's not your fault.

• 1:29:31Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:29:31Speaker 02

  Like, it's actually, the reason you're successful now is the exact thing that people told you to shut up about in the past. Right?

• 1:29:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:39Speaker 02

  So, you know, hey, you, you, you know, stop bothering my lecture. You know, asking all these unrelated questions. It's, it's mainly a frustration of the teacher that they don't have the answers to you. Right, or?

• 1:29:51Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 1:29:52Speaker 02

  And, and, and, um, and now that, that bottleneck is gone. We did this experiment with, with one, one instructor at MIT who taught the introduction to biology class. Where, uh, he came and told us that he's gonna give perplexity to all the kids, all the students. And, um, they would use it as part of the lectures. So, so instead of fighting AI, you just give AIs to everybody. And let them ask whatever questions they want, and they can actually use it in the exams too.

• 1:30:19Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:30:20Speaker 02

  So, so how do you even design questions for an exam? Uh, in, in such a world is maybe you just encourage people to pose a question that AI can't answer right now. And that becomes your research project. And you turn everybody into a scientist. Fundamentally, like, there's this belief that scientists have to go through a rigorous PhD and like, you have to get, you know, accredited by like, an amazing university to be that. Sure, but, uh, every, anyone who's curious can be a scientist. The only thing that's required to be a good scientist is intellectual humility. To understand that you could be wrong about things. Things that everyone takes for granted, you could still question them.

• 1:31:02Speaker 02

  And when you, when you're presented with new evidence and new data, you're willing to change your mind. And you're willing to operate with ambiguity and uncertainty about the world. That's that's basically all the qualities you need to be a scientist. And you can run your experiments, you can gather data, you can gather evidence and you can consult people, you can bring in experts and talk to them. And as long as you're uncovering more and more about the world, you are a scientist. You don't need a PhD to feel that you're, you know, allowed to be a scientist or not. And I think that's the most important quality we need to inculcate in our kids, the upcoming generation, so that they all feel more liberated. Okay, like finally, I don't have to memorize this textbook or these lecture materials.

• 1:31:47Speaker 02

  And like, I don't have to feel bad if I get like 12 out of 20. Okay, who cares? Like, AI is always gonna get 20 out of 20. That's not what you're meant to be like good at. Of course, master the foundations, the basics, great. But your job is to actually pose interesting questions.

• 1:32:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and the intellectual, excuse me, intellectual humility is so important. Because one of the things that was really weird about the whole COVID pandemic was that we weren't supposed to question science.

• 1:32:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:32:16Joe Rogan?

  It was like that, or when Fauci said, if you question Anthony Fauci, you are questioning science.

• 1:32:22Speaker 02

  That's because they tried to assign credibility through their degrees.

• 1:32:26Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:32:26Speaker 02

  Through their affiliations.

• 1:32:28Joe Rogan?

  Yes, appeal to authority.

• 1:32:29Speaker 02

  But not through the scientific method.

• 1:32:30Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:32:31Speaker 02

  Anybody should be allowed to ask questions as long as they are open to new evidence.

• 1:32:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:37Speaker 02

  And that's the most important quality of a scientist.

• 1:32:40Joe Rogan?

  Well, the scientific method alone, I mean, it's one of the most important things that we can use to try to figure out what's real and what's not real. And as soon as someone says, don't use it.

• 1:32:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:32:50Joe Rogan?

  So don't question. Well, wait a minute. And then there was this, an actual government push to silence questioning? And legitimate researchers were kicked off of Twitter because they didn't back the narrative?

• 1:33:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:33:04Joe Rogan?

  Like, this is all anti-science. This is not, this is not, you're questioning science. Well, science demands questioning.

• 1:33:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:33:11Joe Rogan?

  It's what it is.

• 1:33:12Speaker 02

  Yeah. When you don't understand something, the best thing you can do is ask all possible questions.

• 1:33:18Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:33:18Speaker 02

  And so curbing that is almost like a way of saying, look, I'm gonna tell you what happened, you need to believe in my worldview. And I'm not open to. New perspectives.

• 1:33:29Joe Rogan?

  I wonder if anybody has used AI to try to map out possible scenarios for where technology leads human civilization and what could be done to mitigate the problems and push it in the proper direction, like have a bunch of different models of how this could play out.

• 1:33:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:33:50Speaker 02

  I mean, I try to do that for fun, but I haven't done it in a serious enough way to have like a proper answer to that.

• 1:33:56Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:33:57Speaker 02

  But I think like, you know, a lot of things that we are doing today will not be considered needed or valuable. And maybe a little bit of taking our own lessons from the past. I don't know if you, when you grew up as a student, did you have to like be good at mental math, like multiplying arbitrary numbers? Was that considered a sign of smartness or remembering people's phone numbers or something?

• 1:34:22Joe Rogan?

  Well, you had to because there was, I mean, you had little address books as we used to carry around like a little, I had a little address book that I keep on my desk.

• 1:34:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:34:29Joe Rogan?

  It's a little tiny thing with everybody's number and name. That's the only way I knew people's numbers. And I remembered a bunch of them, like all my friends. I had all my friends. I don't have any of my friends' numbers remembered.

• 1:34:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:34:40Joe Rogan?

  Maybe my wife and my friend Eddie. I have two numbers in my head.

• 1:34:44Speaker 02

  But was there a time when people thought somebody was smart based on how good their memory power was?

• 1:34:50Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah, definitely.

• 1:34:51Speaker 02

  But would you say that now?

• 1:34:53Speaker 03

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• 1:36:09Joe Rogan?

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• 1:36:24Joe Rogan?

  Well, people are impressed if you know things now. Yeah. I have a bunch of weird information, obviously, that I've gathered through so many years of doing this podcast and just so many years of being curious. You know, like sometimes even my own daughter was like, how the fuck do you know that? Like, this is what I do. Like, that's my thing. Yeah. You know, I pay attention to stuff. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, memory itself is always very impressive. And someone has an excellent memory. Yeah. And can pull out facts of the past. Yeah. We automatically equate that to intelligence. Yeah, I think it's impressive, but it's not necessarily a sign of being intelligent, right? Like, I think that's just a look. You have a very fast lookup table in your head. That's great. It's very valuable.

• 1:37:09Joe Rogan?

  But I still think like being smart is all about posing the most interesting questions. Also, the decisions that you make. Yeah. And whether or not you self-correct when you make mistakes. Yeah. Yeah, all those things. Exactly. So when you have an amplifier to intelligence, like an AI, all the time, where lookups is essentially something you can delegate.

• 1:37:29Speaker 02

  Um reasoning for decision making is something you can delegate. But posing the right questions to gather the right data and then forming your own judgment based on what it reasons and comes up with. And finally, having the courage to make the decision, that's still you. That agency, that intrinsic curiosity to ask the right question, the scientific intellectual humility to like, you know, gather new evidence, always questioning your beliefs, that that is still you. And so I feel like that is essentially what would be considered smart in the ages to come. If somebody is like, you know, like a proxy scientist or whatever, like no more, doesn't have to go to like MIT or Harvard and get a PhD to be a scientist or to be considered a scientist.

• 1:38:12Speaker 02

  Because all scientific literature is open and like so accessible to everybody and you can, you can even take a paper written by an expert and, and use an AI, understand it deeply, ask a lot of questions and maybe even disprove what they claim to be true. That's the whole peer review process, right? The peer review process is all about questioning somebody's paper. And that's why like, you know, whatever you said happened in COVID days is, is wrong. Like you should be allowed to ask questions about even eminent scientists' work. It's okay, like if you're dumb and you had, had the wrong questions, sure, you're going to learn from that. The, it's worse than not being allowed to ask the question.

• 1:38:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, agreed. It's going to be interesting to see what the future of education looks like. Like how valuable are degrees when essentially AI is going to be able to do the majority of whatever work you need done on variety, like how, how good are they right now at just law? Like you could ask questions.

• 1:39:17Speaker 02

  Pretty good.

• 1:39:18Joe Rogan?

  Pretty, pretty amazing, right?

• 1:39:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:39:19Joe Rogan?

  How good are they at mathematics? Perfect. Like how good are they at coding? Way better than people.

• 1:39:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:39:25Joe Rogan?

  And at a certain point in time, it's going to be interesting to like, what is education now? Is education just providing you with information? Cause that information's readily available.

• 1:39:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:39:34Joe Rogan?

  Or is education teaching you how to think?

• 1:39:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:39:37Joe Rogan?

  Teaching you how to pursue your interests and be curious and have intellectual humility and understand what you know and what you don't know?

• 1:39:44Speaker 02

  I think that that's where it should be. I still think. Institutions will preserve their brand value because there is a certain aspect of education that's outside of learning, which is just having access to other curious and intelligent people.

• 1:39:58Joe Rogan?

  Sure, community.

• 1:40:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, and and brands attract good communities, peer groups, blah, blah, blah. But the actual process of learning itself has to change and and and what you're rewarded for has to change. So fundamentally, everything, you know, flows down is downstream of the incentive, right? So if the incentive is to score the highest on the exam based on answers, you're not really changing much. If you need to change that process, you need to change the process of what do you reward a student? Like, what is A plus or A?

• 1:40:27Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:40:28Speaker 02

  That that's where we need to start at.

• 1:40:30Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's also the, we know, we talked about this the other day, that the education system in this country was designed to make workers.

• 1:40:37Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:40:37Joe Rogan?

  That's what they did when they first started doing it.

• 1:40:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:40:40Joe Rogan?

  The turn of the century.

• 1:40:41Speaker 02

  Curriculum was designed around that, yeah.

• 1:40:43Joe Rogan?

  Well.

• 1:40:43Speaker 02

  In India, it's still the case, by the way.

• 1:40:45Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 1:40:45Speaker 02

  Even if you're a computer, even if you go into a computer science degree, I don't know if it's still like, I shouldn't misspeak, but at least when I was there and for many years after, the first two years, you just spend learning hardcore electrical and mechanical engineering. You would learn like welding, using lathe machines, you would you would have to like go and like do workshops, carpentry, a lot of these things. It was fun.

• 1:41:08Joe Rogan?

  I would think there's be a lot of value in that.

• 1:41:10Speaker 02

  So so in hindsight, I actually think it was fun to learn soldering and like how to like make circuits on redboards and turn the circuit boards. But if somebody was just interested in some, you know, just writing code, let's say, back then, all this is kind of like pointless to learn, but you had to go through it to be qualified as an engineer. So and and and the reason the curriculum was designed that way is because that's what the labor force was required back then to build like oil factories and like all these things. So you had to learn mechanical engineering, you had to learn fluid mechanics, whatever. But I think that that that should also change because if if if the way like you do work changes, then what you're trained for in college should also change.

• 1:41:55Speaker 02

  And it's much harder to change these things, you know, people are much slower, they're scared to do changes, disruptions always like looked down upon. And so I think we should, let's at least start at the incentive structure. Uh, right from the schools, right from the colleges, like, let's not like reward people based on like how much they know.

• 1:42:14Joe Rogan?

  Well, it seems like in the future, when things do radically change and they seems like they're inevitable, they're gonna radically change.

• 1:42:23Joe Rogan?

  Universities and schools are gonna be rewarded for having developed thinkers that are able to adapt to this new world.

• 1:42:31Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:42:32Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, so they're gonna have to figure out how to adjust their curriculum.

• 1:42:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:42:36Joe Rogan?

  Because the, the, the tools are so spectacular now that just this idea of just memorizing information is, it's not. That's not what you're gonna need to get by in the future.

• 1:42:47Speaker 02

  It's not. And, and I, I guess like one proxy different schools use is like maybe if more entrepreneurs arise out of your school. You probably uh created a lot of independent thinkers. Um, because they are like willing to take a fresh perspective towards a problem.

• 1:43:03Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:43:03Speaker 02

  And, and build their own thing from scratch. And, and fundamentally, that's what Ameri- America's always been about is, you know, some, the American dream of coming here and like. Having your own idea and still be taken seriously by a bunch of people. The whole idea of venture capital only exists here or like. Kick family and friends around. There's a whole idea of just having your friends help you to bootstrap a business and then turning it into a success. And success doesn't mean like multi-billion or ten billion or whatever, right? Like, as long as it pays you enough that you don't have to work for somebody else. And you can live a fulfilling life and you can just go explore your passions. That's success. That's actually a better success than. Creating a company based on what other people want you to do and then hating your job for it.

• 1:43:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and having a yacht and being miserable and working every day.

• 1:43:51Speaker 02

  Exactly. That's why I said like not the, the, the smartest, the richest people are not always the ones who have the most fulfilling lives. The most. Curious people have the most fulfilling lives because they have better relationships. They're actually able to sit and look at something and, you know, be curious about it. Instead of like being worried about what's going on.

• 1:44:09Joe Rogan?

  Well, what did the American dream, what was it to you when you weren't in America? Like, what, what is it like? Or like, what is, how's it discussed?

• 1:44:18Speaker 02

  Well, um, to me, like, I always thought, America is the only country where you can come here. And um have an idea and people listen to you and uh and, and encourage you to go pursue it. The risk-seeking culture is just incredible here. Everybody, everywhere else you cannot are like either explicitly or implicitly are forced to defer to authority. Okay, like go and ask the permission of this person, go and ask the permission of that person, or get their approval, get their insight, or sure, you can get their, you can consult everybody out there, but if you have a thought that challenges what they believe in, this country still encourages you to like go pursue it.

• 1:44:58Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:44:59Speaker 02

  And so, yes, like when I came here, obviously, you know, Google was the number one company that everybody wanted to work in. But it's also the same country where it allows you, as a new person, to start a new idea that challenges one of the biggest companies in this own country. And it actually wants it, people actually want new ideas. And, and then you can consistently see that there are like always going to be more and more new ideas and new companies to be created here. And so that spirit of like questioning is encouraged a lot here.

• 1:45:38Speaker 02

  And it happens in academic research, I started off as an academic, even there, a lot of ideas when I had it, and I would share it with people.

• 1:45:50Speaker 02

  You know, people actually give you very honest feedback about things, but they don't stop you from working on anything. And that's fantastic, because that's, that's very fresh, it's very liberating.

• 1:46:02Joe Rogan?

  And that's not anywhere else.

• 1:46:05Speaker 02

  I would say it's not.

• 1:46:06Joe Rogan?

  It's not in India.

• 1:46:07Speaker 02

  It's a simplification to say it's not anywhere else, but.

• 1:46:11Joe Rogan?

  It's not as encouraged.

• 1:46:12Speaker 02

  It's not as encouraged, the incentive structures are not quite there, and ability to like be taken seriously for some crazy ideas is why America is still at the top.

• 1:46:25Joe Rogan?

  But it's crazy to me that if the American dream is so compelling and so many people come here for it, why doesn't the rest of the world sort of adopt those values?

• 1:46:34Speaker 02

  It's hard, you know, like a lot of it is cultural. Like America was, was born, was made from, from like, you know, a piece of land essentially, right? And a lot of ideas that we built here, a lot of industries that we built here, were all like created here from nothing. And that required you to like go take bold risks. I think Jeff Bezos said this in some podcast that where else would you like be able to go raise like a few million dollars for an idea that has like five to 10% chance of working? And then fail at it and still go and raise another few million dollars for your next

• 1:47:18Speaker 02

  idea? Nowhere else. People are willing, like, people who get rich here actually want to encourage and be part of somebody else's crazy journey. Because it's hard to pursue all crazy bets yourself.

• 1:47:33Joe Rogan?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:47:34Speaker 02

  So it's an ecosystem. And once something becomes an ecosystem, there's network effects. So it's very hard to copy that elsewhere.

• 1:47:42Joe Rogan?

  And so your value is measured in your curiosity and your willing to work, your willingness to work on whatever it is.

• 1:47:50Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:47:51Joe Rogan?

  That is your pursuit.

• 1:47:52Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:47:53Joe Rogan?

  And then eventually adjusting and learning.

• 1:47:54Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:47:55Joe Rogan?

  Catching fire with one of them.

• 1:47:56Speaker 02

  Correct. And you have to work hard, like, you know, like, I'm a big believer in intense hard work. I think nothing great can be accomplished by being soft. And so all this like recent push for, you know, having a lot of work-life balance, this and that. Sure, if you have work-life balance, if that's what you want, then I think there are certain jobs that would give you that. But when you're trying to do something from scratch, when you're trying to create something from nothing, it's not meant to be easy.

• 1:48:24Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:48:25Speaker 02

  There are some sacrifices that have to be made. And you're signing up to be part of that experience, that surreal joy you get from doing something that's felt almost impossible to achieve. And you're not doing, you're not like staying up late or waking up early because you're getting paid more. Maybe you might not get paid anything, maybe this whole thing goes to nothing, but that that experience you're getting of being part of something that feels very hard to achieve is what you're signing up for to be part of.

• 1:48:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and if you're not, find something else.

• 1:48:58Speaker 02

  It's fine, respect that.

• 1:49:00Joe Rogan?

  There's nothing wrong with that.

• 1:49:00Speaker 02

  Exactly, and and and the country has enough jobs to provide for all kinds of like needs, right? And and everybody goes through different phases in their life, sometimes they feel a little lazy or like disillusion, okay? And and so what I like about this country is that there's a lot of curious people here. There's a lot of like so many different people, you you know, like whether they use AIs or not AIs, they're all like finding meaning in like so many interesting projects.

• 1:49:25Joe Rogan?

  Well, obviously, I don't know any other country really because I was born here, but the people that do talk to me about what the American dream is like from another country, they're the most passionate and the most supportive of this this idea, this experiment in self-government. And this this the, just the whole idea that the country operates on, that anybody can chase their dream. That you can, if you have a dream and you're willing to work hard, you could actually do it in this country.

• 1:49:56Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:49:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's, you know, it's most, the people that are most passionate about that idea oftentimes are people that come from somewhere else where that wasn't available.

• 1:50:05Speaker 02

  And and it's not just like, you know, people coming from one particular country or another. It's it's it's the attitude, it's the the way the system works and rewards you to like be bold and take bets against established players, it's okay, right? It's okay to like be an upstart, a challenger, and people love that like underdog. And I and I think, you know, that's fantastic, like and and that culture is continuing. Yes, there are like multi-trillion dollar companies here and they're all going to become even bigger. But people still want the young, hungry person to also be successful.

• 1:50:40Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, they they love disruptors.

• 1:50:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:50:42Joe Rogan?

  And people love underdogs in this country.

• 1:50:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:50:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:46Speaker 02

  It's it's it's it's it's universal, it's not specific to technology.

• 1:50:50Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:50:51Speaker 02

  Like, I'm sure everybody would love an underdog story that wants to go against like Coca-Cola or Pepsi or something too.

• 1:50:56Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 1:50:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:50:57Joe Rogan?

  Oh, in sports, it's our favorite thing.

• 1:50:58Speaker 02

  Sports, yeah.

• 1:50:59Joe Rogan?

  We don't like when the guy who's supposed to win wins, we love when the guy who's not supposed to win triumphs.

• 1:51:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:51:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:05Speaker 02

  The underdog story.

• 1:51:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's a very uniquely American story.

• 1:51:10Speaker 02

  To me, that's what this this this country is. I mean, sure, there's a lot of obstacles and challenges. Just like every other country, there are things here that are challenging, but it's one thing that has consistently stayed true.

• 1:51:25Joe Rogan?

  One of the big fears that people in America have about technology in particular is that without being aware that this was going to take place, everybody gave up their data, everybody gave up their data and didn't recognize it was a commodity. That in turn made these corporations immensely wealthy and powerful, and then they have the ability to shape narratives. And that that concerns people because using their ideological position as leverage to try to push that through technology that has immense control and influence over people. And that we didn't see technology and corporations as having that much control

• 1:52:10Joe Rogan?

  over how society views itself and how we interact with each other. And there's a real, real concern that these companies got so big and have so like, there's a guy named Robert Epstein, who's done a lot of work on narrated or curated search engine results. And how much that can have, have you read, seen any of his stuff?

• 1:52:32Speaker 02

  I think I've seen this, yeah.

• 1:52:33Joe Rogan?

  How much that can affect elections, how much that can affect people's perceptions on any societal issue that's coming up.

• 1:52:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:52:42Joe Rogan?

  And it's concerning, it really is, because they do curate search results. It's not simply, you know, you just run it out there and you get this is the data. No, you get, you know, if you look for specific political figures, depending upon where they fall in the right or left spectrum, and depending upon which way the company forms, the the corporation forms, falls rather, you'll get different results. And that sucks. You know, that's, it's very concerning that people don't recognize, they don't, they don't have the ability to see how that is dangerous for all of society.

• 1:53:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:53:18Joe Rogan?

  To have that kind of power and wield it in that way where you're not being honest about accurate, objective information. You're pushing particular ideologies.

• 1:53:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I think it's kind of like a

• 1:53:32Speaker 02

  This is almost an effect of the asymmetry that exists between the amount of AI power that centralized systems and centralized companies have and the amount of AI power as you as a sovereign individual has. So when you don't have the AIs to just go judge for yourself like what you should be reading and fed, you're obviously like under the influence of what, you know, whatever big tech company is controlling the information for. But when you have access to all those AIs, you can actually just customize what you want to see by telling the AI like, hey, this is what I think you should actually question and tell me. Until now, you never had that power for yourself. You're finally getting it. Right.

• 1:54:15Speaker 02

  And eventually, we'll be able to have our own LLMs, like our own models that we would be able to post in our own hardware. We don't have to rely on like one centralized model given to us by like any specific model company. And using that, you can shape it to your beliefs, your custom, you know, your custom data. And so when you're consuming a search result, you can actually task that AI that you control and you run, so nobody can shut off access to it to tell you like, hey, like, can you actually like, give me a contrarian perspective on this? Or like, can you tell me if these search results are actually biased?

• 1:54:56Speaker 02

  So I think we need to give individuals more sovereignty with more access to their own AIs that they own and run on a piece of hardware they own themselves. And this is the whole like, this is going to be leading to the whole rise of local AIs. So as AI models like today, they're very power inefficient, they're running on large data centers, but in a year or two from now, whatever capability that exists in the most power hungry data centers will be, it'll be possible to run it in some box that you own. Really? Yeah. It's already happening. It's already happening that like, there are like interesting hardware projects like the Apple Mac Mini and Nvidia DGX, where you can actually host a reasonable sized model.

• 1:55:41Speaker 02

  And and put it in a box and have it run and you don't have to pay for all the tokens it it produces you. You just have to plug it into your power car and it works.

• 1:55:52Joe Rogan?

  I know Duncan, my friend Duncan Trussell, he does that.

• 1:55:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, and and and today, the capability of that model that can run locally is not quite there. So you would still prefer to use something that runs on the data center. But eventually, this is going to be a spectrum. There's going to be some percentage of tasks that you you would you would start delegating to this local system. It'll be a hybrid model. And over time, it could end up being the case that you could buy something that feels like a refrigerator for your home. Which is your own AI box. And host a model that you control. So nobody can arbitrarily shut off access to it. One day. And then you can. You can have that be your weapon against what the big tech wants you to be fed or believe in.

• 1:56:33Joe Rogan?

  Hmm, so.

• 1:56:34Speaker 02

  This is the only way we can fight this because they have far more computing power, far more data, far more algorithms than you. So the only way you can fight that is you have something you own yourself. And with the rise of open source models, open source L L Ms. You can just and and and and and progress in local hardware. And and both Apple and Nvidia and Intel, they're all doing amazing work here. You could potentially change the future and give people more power, and this may not be as expensive as people think.

• 1:57:04Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's a good solution. Because I I've always wondered, like, is are these searches like using Google, is that going to be irrelevant one day? Because you already can just ask your phone, like I. Most of the time, if I want to have an answer for something, I just ask perplexity. I was like, what is it? And instead of like having to sift through all these Google searches.

• 1:57:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:57:26Joe Rogan?

  And try to figure out what it's showing me first and get to page three where it's what I really want to know.

• 1:57:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:57:31Joe Rogan?

  I can get the accurate information, then follow up questions. Oh, it's instantaneous.

• 1:57:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, and and and and even the models that are running the perplexity app today. They're all in the cloud. Eventually, you'll be able to do that. On on a box that you own. You can still, you can still use the front end, the UI of the app. But you can control the compute that runs. On on on piece of hardware. You you may ask, why? Why do I care? Okay, like, what if some someday, like, the data center gets taken off? Like, Iran was bombing data centers.

• 1:58:04Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:58:04Speaker 02

  Like, what if someday, like, the government decides that model is no longer available? You you want some control over like like what models you can run and like. You can you may even wanna shape it to like your context that you never want to be living on any data center.

• 1:58:19Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:58:20Speaker 02

  And and and and I think that's where I believe the individual gets more sovereignty against big tech. And that's how like we fight surveillance or like centralization of power.

• 1:58:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and cer- certainly pushing narratives. Um, what do you think happens with social media? Because social media and as you were talking about before, like algorithms, like it's one of the biggest problems in terms of the way people view the world.

• 1:58:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm curious what you think like, you know. Like my my opinion is that it's not good for the kids.

• 1:58:54Joe Rogan?

  It's terrible for them.

• 1:58:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:58:55Joe Rogan?

  But I think they should have some exposure to it because I think it's good to know that it's a thing. And I think children are fairly resilient and they learn. But the anxiety levels of kids is much higher than ever before.

• 1:59:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:59:08Joe Rogan?

  Suicidal ideations higher, self harm.

• 1:59:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:59:11Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:13Speaker 02

  I'm a little, I my belief is that um. When you're just fed a feed. And and and and the algorithm of the social media company decides what you're gonna see next. It it curbs your curiosity. And I I don't I don't think things that curb human curiosity should be encouraged.

• 1:59:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I agree.

• 1:59:34Speaker 02

  And so i- if the app is designed in a way where it asks you what you're interested in. And helps you to come up. And find things that that are very related to what you're interested in.

• 1:59:45Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:59:46Speaker 02

  That's awesome, but that's not how it works. It it's literally like it starts with something, you start doom scrolling and then start showing you what you just scroll. And then you end up in an echo chamber. And and that's not that's not necessarily good.

• 1:59:58Joe Rogan?

  Well, you can get trapped.

• 1:59:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:59:59Joe Rogan?

  You can get, I'm in a trap of schizophrenics lately on Instagram. Which is mostly schizophrenics, like people that tell them that the rightful president of the United States and like that you tell the guy hasn't showered in days and. You know, and if you have a phone, you can create an account and you just start uploading nonsense and then for whatever reason, I've watched a couple of them, so now they just keep showing them to me.

• 2:00:22Speaker 02

  And it's full of AI slop right now, like a lot of AI slop, like it's it's not even clear. And it's not labeled also clearly whether it's been made with AI or not so often. So essentially, it's leading to a complete loss in trust. Where when I see something, I don't even know if it's real anymore.

• 2:00:39Joe Rogan?

  Right, and it's gonna get worse.

• 2:00:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's gonna get worse, to the extent that you're gonna like, your default would be that this is AI. And then like, you're gonna have to go through multiple layers to finally verify if it was real.

• 2:00:54Speaker 02

  And even like verified accounts post a lot of AI stuff, so it's not, it's not about like whether the account is verified by Meta or some, or whatever, right? So I think fundamentally, I feel like, okay, the way I think about it is, what are pieces of technology if did not exist would be a really bad thing for the world? And what are pieces of technology if did not exist, wouldn't even matter? And I feel like social media is more towards a second.

• 2:01:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:26Speaker 02

  Like, you know, searching for information and answering questions and like getting, you know, AIs to like do things for you, help you learn new things faster, all that stuff is some, we need more of that. But because it supercharges our curiosity. Whereas like brain rot feeds with AI slop doesn't actually supercharge our curiosity. It actually curbs our curiosity and so if we believe that, if you believe in the curiosity premium idea, we need to encourage things that supercharge our curiosity and discourage things that curb our curiosity.

• 2:02:02Joe Rogan?

  Do you anticipate a time where we recognize the dangers of algorithms? And there is some discussion to either curb them or allow people to have control over them in a real meaningful way? Like you could dictate, maybe through AI even, that there's an AI interface to your algorithm that understands your particular emotional needs, your curiosity, like only show me this. This is what I'm interested in, carpentry and basketball games, show me those things. I don't wanna, I don't wanna see who's getting divorced, I don't give a fuck about this. Yeah.

• 2:02:37Speaker 02

  So here's the thing, you can still customize on most of the social apps. You know, if you it'll be deeply buried somewhere in the settings somewhere. And you can you can go and say stuff, but the reason it's buried is because once you you always have to say it, or like it's the starting entry point for your experience there. Your engagement time would go down because once you consume the content that you really want, you you would go back to your work, which is what you really need to be doing.

• 2:03:03Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:03:03Speaker 02

  But that doesn't help them sell more ads.

• 2:03:05Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:03:06Speaker 02

  And so the incentives are not aligned. And and so Elon has this really good metric he talks about where it's like a total amount of unregretted minutes spent on the app should go up.

• 2:03:20Joe Rogan?

  Hmm, that's good.

• 2:03:20Speaker 02

  It's hard to measure. It's hard to measure. It's more like in spirit, the right metric. But this metric is also why it's hard to make money on ads if you care about this metric. Which is why X doesn't really make a lot of money on ads compared to, you know, Instagram or YouTube.

• 2:03:37Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:03:37Speaker 02

  Because you're kind of like optimizing for interestingness, like doesn't mean X has everything, right? There's a lot of chaos, there's a lot of memes, there's a lot of like weird shit going on there as well. But in general, social media is not necessarily like great for people.

• 2:03:55Joe Rogan?

  I think it's terrible for people, but it also provides you with a way better understanding of what's going on in the world than has ever existed before.

• 2:04:05Speaker 02

  X, X particularly.

• 2:04:06Joe Rogan?

  X particularly.

• 2:04:07Speaker 02

  Because it's it's a place for like discourse. It's it's a text-based app more than a video-based app.

• 2:04:14Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:04:15Speaker 02

  So naturally, like, people tend to engage in discussions and debates and, you know, there's a lot of curious debates going on there and a lot of interesting viewpoints expressed by people. So I think in terms of the unregretted minutes, it's actually one of the better social media apps. But apps that are purely based on like video or or images.

• 2:04:37Speaker 02

  And largely video these days. I think that's just, you know, just trying to get your eyeballs in time.

• 2:04:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, those are the mind numbers.

• 2:04:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:04:45Joe Rogan?

  They just numb your mind.

• 2:04:45Speaker 02

  I mean, it's depressing when you go into a metro and you just see people just scrolling through their feed. Nobody.

• 2:04:51Joe Rogan?

  Everybody doing it. You look, the entire car, everyone's doing it.

• 2:04:54Speaker 02

  It's just insane.

• 2:04:55Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's weird.

• 2:04:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:04:57Joe Rogan?

  I always say that if there was a drug that existed that made people stare at their hand for six hours a day, everybody would be like, get that out of here.

• 2:05:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:05:03Joe Rogan?

  But that's essentially what we're doing. Cause like, most of what people are looking at, most of the time, they don't even remember.

• 2:05:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:05:10Joe Rogan?

  They're just scrolling through this thing.

• 2:05:11Speaker 02

  It's brain rot. It's just brain rot. It curbs your curiosity.

• 2:05:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:15Speaker 02

  I mean, Apple has these settings in different apps. Have you, have you tried this?

• 2:05:18Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 2:05:19Speaker 02

  You can set the timer for every app.

• 2:05:21Joe Rogan?

  No, I just use discipline. I don't, I don't engage very much anymore. I very, I dip my toe into X every day for a few seconds. I go, what's everybody mad at? What's going on? Who stole this? Who, how much corruption's here? Who got killed there? Okay, bye. And then I just check out. I don't want to do it. And Instagram to me is just nonsense. It's, I just look at that every now and then for nonsense and occasionally something interesting. Really YouTube is my main go-to thing.

• 2:05:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:05:55Joe Rogan?

  Because YouTube is my most unregretted minutes.

• 2:05:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:05:58Joe Rogan?

  YouTube for me is always interesting. There's always like some cool thing on cosmology. There's some. I watch fights on YouTube. I watch professional pool matches. That's what I do for the most part. I, that's where I really like find my actual interests and fulfill my curiosity.

• 2:06:16Speaker 02

  Long form content is what human mind should be trained to consume more of. Whether it's books, whether it's like, you know,

• 2:06:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:24Speaker 02

  thirty minute videos explaining something.

• 2:06:26Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:06:27Speaker 02

  And you, you, you need to train your mind to actually complete it. That's actually the biggest problem with the younger generation. The more. Their reels experience, short form video, uh, they're unable to actually like complete like long videos anymore.

• 2:06:41Joe Rogan?

  That's true, but also at the same time, the rise of podcasts is happening.

• 2:06:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's great, it's great.

• 2:06:48Joe Rogan?

  So there's, it's not, it's not universal. It's like, there's a lot of people that don't find fulfillment in all the doom scrolling and all the nonsense. And they, they really do want.

• 2:06:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm, I'm particularly just focused on the younger generation. I'm sure like people like us can adapt to like, okay, let's say maybe you have a temporary addiction to social apps and you can.

• 2:07:06Joe Rogan?

  But a lot of the young people are the people like, I meet kids like at the mall that are eleven that listen to my podcast.

• 2:07:12Speaker 02

  Really?

• 2:07:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:13Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 2:07:14Joe Rogan?

  I know, it's nuts. They go, I love your podcast. I'm like, who lets you listen? Get out of here.

• 2:07:21Joe Rogan?

  No, I'm always joking around about it. Like, that's really cool. But no, there's a lot of like particularly like young boys that come up to me all the time that are interested in it.

• 2:07:29Speaker 02

  That's amazing.

• 2:07:30Joe Rogan?

  I love it. I love it because then they're gonna get exposed to some interesting ideas and it'll also encourage them to have those kind of conversations with each other.

• 2:07:38Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:07:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:40Speaker 02

  Who, whose, whose podcast do you listen to?

• 2:07:43Joe Rogan?

  I love Tim Dillon's. He's probably my favorite because it's the most accurate and also satirical and hilarious view on everything that's going on in the world. Terms of like war and world news and culture shit and he's my favorite. He was just on here yesterday. I fucking love that guy to death. He's so funny. He's so crazy. It's like, his mind works in such a unique way and it's developed. Cause his podcast is different where he very rarely has guests. So most of the time it's just him ranting and his producer laughing. And he's the best ranter that's ever lived. I don't think there's anybody that's even close. He's the goat. Like, there's like, I don't think there's any argument. Every comedian agrees.

• 2:08:28Joe Rogan?

  Like as far as like just the ability to just sit in front of a microphone and rant, like Bill Burr does it well. He's good at it. There's a few other guys that are good at it. No one's as good at it as Tim. He's the most consistently entertaining. And then for just mind, not mindless, but like to escape, I listened to a lot of archery shows and hunting shows. Where they're talking about different tactics in hunting, or different techniques in archery, new equipment and new innovations. Archery is an interesting thing because every year bow manufacturers make a better bow. And like tiny little engineering changes of these bows.

• 2:09:10Joe Rogan?

  Like it's a weapon that's been around for who knows how many thousands of years, but what the.

• 2:09:16Speaker 02

  And you're able to feel those improvements.

• 2:09:18Joe Rogan?

  Oh yeah, yeah, you feel the difference. Every year Hoyt puts puts out a new bow and every year I'm like, motherfucker, they did it again. It's better. So just tiny changes, less vibrations in the hand, more balance in the shot, you know, more forgiving in terms of accuracy. I love that stuff. So I get really fascinated by engineering, really fascinated by automotive engineering. I'm really interested in like, that's another thing where like every year, people figure out to make a car that can hold more G's on a skid pad, that can get around a track quicker. Like every year they're battling to see who can get around the Nürburgring quicker. And what are they doing? They're adding horsepower, increasing suspension travel and and suspension tuning rather, and

• 2:10:02Joe Rogan?

  making them more compliant, or making them stiffer and and making them more adjustable and then like tire compounds and I'm just interested in anything that where someone's working on something and getting better at something or getting new information. I love history podcasts, I listen to a bunch of history podcasts. So that's most of the time when I'm, if I'm listening to something, I either want to be entertained or I want to be educated.

• 2:10:29Speaker 02

  Educational, yeah, yeah.

• 2:10:30Joe Rogan?

  And that's entertaining.

• 2:10:33Joe Rogan?

  What about you? What kind of stuff do you listen to?

• 2:10:34Speaker 02

  I mean, I listen to your stuff. I listen to Lex. There's this guy, um, I mean, you know, you might, you had him on like Rick Rubin, of course.

• 2:10:42Joe Rogan?

  Sure. Yeah. Love that guy.

• 2:10:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. He's awesome. I listen to his stuff. Um, and, um, I mean, I also watch like some interesting videos about, you know, stuff, concepts I don't understand. There is this YouTube channel, Veritasium. You should check it out.

• 2:10:59Joe Rogan?

  What is it called?

• 2:10:59Speaker 02

  Veritasium.

• 2:11:01Joe Rogan?

  How do you spell that?

• 2:11:02Speaker 02

  V E R I T A S E U M. Veritasium.

• 2:11:08Joe Rogan?

  What does it mean?

• 2:11:09Speaker 02

  Um, I think.

• 2:11:10Joe Rogan?

  Is that someone's name?

• 2:11:11Speaker 02

  No, Veritas just means like seeking truth kind of thing.

• 2:11:14Joe Rogan?

  Oh, okay.

• 2:11:16Speaker 05

  Is it this channel?

• 2:11:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:11:18Joe Rogan?

  Ooh, okay. Twenty point nine million subscribers. Obviously, a lot of people agree.

• 2:11:24Speaker 02

  So they make all these very interesting videos about like, um, stuff that, you know, you would be curious about, but you never actually bothered to ask that or learn more about and, um, explain some of the most under-understood companies, uh, or like phenomena. And, um, I just love watching it. You know, I'm, I'm, this is kind of like my idea of doom scrolling. Like, I like, I like watching like twenty videos at once.

• 2:11:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I am going to subscribe to it right now.

• 2:11:53Speaker 02

  It's pretty cool.

• 2:11:54Joe Rogan?

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• 2:13:22Joe Rogan?

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• 2:13:52Speaker 02

  And explains all these like fun concepts that are, you know, you take it for granted, like, okay, why is Google Maps really fast? Like, okay, it'll tell you what's going on, how the data is used across so many different people at once and all these different departments.

• 2:14:07Joe Rogan?

  CIA's new tech doesn't make sense. Exactly. We were just talking about that yesterday. We were doubting it. You know, the heart murmur thing? Do you know about that?

• 2:14:16Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:14:17Joe Rogan?

  So, the pilots that were downed in Iran, they said that they have this technology that allows them, I think they could use it up to 70 miles, and they can detect a very unique heart rate. Like, your heart rate is different than my heart rate. They could know it's you. You could be hiding in the mountains and they could find you from 70 miles away with this technology.

• 2:14:38Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 2:14:39Joe Rogan?

  A lot of people are like...

• 2:14:40Speaker 02

  Is it like beams or waves or something?

• 2:14:42Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's called, what is it called? Quantum magnetometry? Is that what they call it? I think that's what it was. Remember, we looked it up yesterday? They're using the word quantum and not explaining what they're doing, like how they're doing it. And you're like, okay, is that real? Or is this some invented horseshit to cover the fact that they have some very sophisticated satellite imagery? Where they can have a detailed map of literally the entire surface of the world. They know exactly where people are, but they don't want our enemies to know that they have this capability. So they're making up something.

• 2:15:18Speaker 02

  I see.

• 2:15:18Joe Rogan?

  That was my suggestion yesterday. That like, maybe they're full of shit. Cause the whole thing seems nuts. What is it called?

• 2:15:25Speaker 02

  You got it.

• 2:15:26Joe Rogan?

  It's quantum magnetometry?

• 2:15:28Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 2:15:28Joe Rogan?

  Okay, what does that mean? You tell me.

• 2:15:29Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 2:15:30Joe Rogan?

  Exactly.

• 2:15:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:15:31Joe Rogan?

  So, this guy, he's saying it doesn't make sense. Yeah, and a lot of people say it doesn't make sense. Like, it doesn't seem to vibe with anything that we know that we can do.

• 2:15:40Speaker 02

  Magnetometry, yeah.

• 2:15:41Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:42Speaker 02

  First time I'm hearing it.

• 2:15:42Joe Rogan?

  See the, pull up the descrip- this description, the official description of what this stuff is capable of. So this is supposedly some very advanced CIA tech that allowed them to locate this down pilot.

• 2:15:56Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 2:15:58Joe Rogan?

  Maybe. Or maybe there's something else going on. Or maybe there's some other methods that they use that they don't want the enemy to know about. Maybe some beacon these guys have on them.

• 2:16:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, I guess what's the incentive for CIA to actually describe how their technology works?

• 2:16:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, zero.

• 2:16:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:16:14Joe Rogan?

  Why would they tell you that?

• 2:16:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:16:16Joe Rogan?

  Why would they tell you they even have that? That's crazy.

• 2:16:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:16:19Joe Rogan?

  And then Jamie had a good point.

• 2:16:20Speaker 02

  But the capability is insane. Detecting your heart rate seventy miles away is just insane.

• 2:16:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, how? And when they throw the word quantum and things, I always go, huh. Hey, what happened with that White House announcement? Sorry, I keep...

• 2:16:33Speaker 05

  The quantum computing?

• 2:16:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, the, remember? There's Q News coming soon, and then, and they like at the bottom of the text, Q sounds for quantum.

• 2:16:42Speaker 02

  Oh, I see.

• 2:16:43Joe Rogan?

  Is that what it is?

• 2:16:44Speaker 02

  I thought they just announced a bunch of investments in a bunch of quantum companies.

• 2:16:47Joe Rogan?

  Maybe that's it.

• 2:16:48Speaker 02

  Like, they're getting a...

• 2:16:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:49Speaker 02

  IBM was getting some funding or whatever.

• 2:16:52Joe Rogan?

  Hmm. So, this quantum magnetometry, can you pull up a description of what it is?

• 2:16:58Speaker 05

  Sorry, I started looking up the...

• 2:16:59Joe Rogan?

  Sorry. I was asking you too many questions at the same time. Quantum sensor help rescuers. Yeah, so this is it.

• 2:17:07Speaker 02

  Ghost Murmur.

• 2:17:08Joe Rogan?

  Yes, that's what it's called. Purported surveillance technology utilizes long range quantum magnetometry. What is that? Quantum magnetometers measure extremely faint magnetic fields, including the body's natural electromagnetic signals, by tracking changes in the energy states of atoms or subatomic particles. What? Technology reportedly uses microscopic defects in synthetic diamonds. When illuminated by a laser, these sensors are hypersensitive to tiny magnetic fluctuations. The heart signal, while human heartbeats produce a magnetic field that is extremely weak, around fifty to one hundred pico teslas, and typically degrades over very short distances.

• 2:17:52Joe Rogan?

  So the ghost mermur deployment, they reportedly use ghost mermur during a mission in southern Iran to pinpoint the location of a down American airman using, hiding rather, in dense mountainous terrain. By mounting these quantum sensors into a helicopter, the system purportedly registered the pilot's heartbeat from afar. Okay. Does that sound like horseshit?

• 2:18:17Speaker 02

  I mean, not, it doesn't sound full of shit, but like, basically, the part that sounds surprising to me is how they're able to deal with all this, like, distance and attenuation across the distance.

• 2:18:26Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:18:27Speaker 02

  And all this interference, and they claim to use AI for that, but nothing is really described on how they use it.

• 2:18:33Joe Rogan?

  Right. So if they're not describing how they use it, why are they even telling us they have it?

• 2:18:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, so, like, there's a lot of skepticism on it.

• 2:18:40Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Laws of physics. Physicists point out that the heart's magnetic field is a million times weaker than the Earth's. Detecting it at a range of miles rather than centimeters defies currently published, peer reviewed physics. Alternative explanations suspect that while quantum sensors were likely on board, they were probably tracking the radio waves of a survival beacon. The metal in the pilot's equipment or using traditional thermal infrared and radar capabilities rather than detecting a raw heartbeat via magnetic fields.

• 2:19:13Speaker 05

  I do remember seeing a different part of a, when that story happened back in April, someone did report on like one of the military websites that there was a survival beacon that they used to track them. And that the whole quantum number stuff is like nonsense.

• 2:19:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I saw that too.

• 2:19:27Speaker 05

  But no one wants to report that because it's not fun.

• 2:19:30Joe Rogan?

  Right. No, the ghost murmur thing is awesome fun. And if that is real, like, boy. And you could imagine a world 100 years from now where that is real. So it's exciting.

• 2:19:41Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, 100 years is a long time for this to be real.

• 2:19:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, 100 years, they probably got it down pat. Then that's the problem. You can't hide from the robot dogs from Black Mare.

• 2:19:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:19:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:19:54Joe Rogan?

  Do you ever, while you're working in AI, do you ever wonder like, is this the downfall of humanity? Is this a good thing to be working on? Did you ever have like doom moments?

• 2:20:07Speaker 02

  Not on specific things I'm working on, but in general, I do worry about like, how much, you know, you, you, you obviously want to like, stay in charge and, you know, be in control of your experience. Still be the one driving change and have a lot of agency for yourself. So I do worry that like, it's all about like making sure everybody's upskilled and understanding like where the future is headed and not being like, fed only like dangerous apocalyptic messages. And because it's very essential that human beings retain their agency and staying curious, right? Like, so if, if, if that stops being the case, if you start subscribing to the vision

• 2:20:50Speaker 02

  that, okay, your jobs are done, you don't really have any meaning in the world and we'll pay you some dividends and you just sit at home and chill. That is, that is not a good thing. So, and, and, and I feel like there are not enough voices in AI that are actually saying anything different to that. And I like, like when Jensen was here, I think he was a little different. I think he tried to give a more positive. Uh, version where he said, okay, like the, the radiologist thing, if, okay, if all radiologists can take away, you know, they start doing different kind of work. So I think we need to start looking at like, okay, like, okay, first of all, guys, relax. You have a lot of, you have one premium skill, your curiosity. So let's figure out ways to channelize that.

• 2:21:31Speaker 02

  Let's change the way work is done in companies. Let's change the way educational institutions run. Let's change the incentive structures and let's help you build new ideas and new companies. And explore things that are not even being considered. And the government should obviously like, you know, support all these initiatives. So that's what needs to happen more. But what's happening actually right now is, um, okay, like, hey, guys, you're all losers. You're gonna lose your jobs. And, and, and, and don't blame me because I'm, I told you so, right? And, um, and, and, and, and still give us money because we're still gonna do it anyway. And so that's what's happening more. And I think, uh, we should stop doing that. But that's my opinion.

• 2:22:13Joe Rogan?

  Well, it is, the problem is, it's kind of a self fulfilling prophecy. And if you tell people that they're gonna be a loser and you're gonna, yeah, their life is over, they're gonna think that way. Instead of giving them an understanding of like, look, this can open up new doors for you.

• 2:22:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:22:26Joe Rogan?

  And anytime there's any sort of disruptive technology, there's always the, the fear that it's gonna go badly.

• 2:22:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:22:32Joe Rogan?

  This was the case with the locomotive. This was the case with, uh, the, when the printing press was invented.

• 2:22:39Speaker 02

  Yeah. By the way, like I, I, I did some research on this where, um, in the industrial revolution happened.

• 2:22:47Speaker 02

  People got new ideas. Um, okay, like, for example, uh, when the industrial revolution happened.

• 2:22:54Speaker 02

  Who came up with the idea of a steel plow? John Deere. Until then, we were using wooden plows to like, for farming. No farmer complained that, hey, like, we need fewer farmers now because steel plow is able to do it more effectively. No one complained. You actually had more farms and more productivity, more crop yields, and you're happier.

• 2:23:14Joe Rogan?

  But isn't that, this is a regular tool as opposed to AI?

• 2:23:18Speaker 02

  Sure, AI is, AI is different. It's not overnight gonna become something. That's capable of just running an entire multi-trillion dollar company on its own. There are a lot of things that AIs cannot do. There's a lot of tacit knowledge in every company that AIs don't quite understand. And there's a lot of new directions that you can just start working on that AIs are not well equipped to do because it doesn't have full knowledge about it and the knowledge about it is yet to be captured. And some of that requires like human to human work and collaboration. So we obviously have to gravitate towards what is scarce. When AI makes the current labor that's considered scarce, because that's where the money is going in, commodity, then we have to gravitate towards what is scarce.

• 2:24:02Speaker 02

  And the only way to do that is to seek things that we don't know about, which is only something we can discover through our curiosity. There's nothing else. Whatever we don't quite understand well, whatever we don't know how to do well yet, even with the current capabilities of AI, that's where we should pull our labor and workforce into. So it needs more responsible messaging and that's not quite happening right now.

• 2:24:30Joe Rogan?

  I think it needs responsible messaging and then in the future, what it needs is like real direction in terms of like letting people find their curiosity and find these paths of interest and find something to do with themselves. It doesn't involve whatever their previous occupation that's irrelevant now.

• 2:24:50Speaker 02

  Mm hmm. That's true. I think like passion for people is something that not a lot of people will be able to answer out of the out of the box. Like if you go and ask them, what is your real passion? And and and the only thing they have known in life is to just climb up career ladders and make more money. That's going to actually take them a while to even discover.

• 2:25:12Joe Rogan?

  Right. Which is why it's so important to get kids off on the right start.

• 2:25:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's that's the hope. That's that's our hope for the future is the kids. The kids are born curious. They don't need to change themselves to be curious.

• 2:25:24Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:25:25Speaker 02

  The adults who probably already are like because of this knowledge work thing. Who kind of curb their curiosity and try to fit into the existing system. It might be a little hard for them to adapt, but the kids, I think they don't have this problem. So I'm actually optimistic about the future long term because the future is all centered around like whoever is like very young today.

• 2:25:47Joe Rogan?

  What do you think about this idea that the universal basic income is going to be required?

• 2:25:53Speaker 02

  Some form of it is good. Some, it's like a dividend. I almost think of it as a dividend. If a lot of spend that most companies are currently doing today on like payroll, which is paying a knowledge worker for a certain task. Think of knowledge work as basically taking information and transforming it into an artifact. Right? And it's messy and complicated. Let's assume that's being done by AIs. So obviously companies will start spending more on compute instead of payroll. It's just a reallocation of like spend or budget. Similar to like what happened in advertising industries where most of your advertising budgets went to like television and like billboards. And then now it's starting to go to Google and Instagram and YouTube and all that. So um.

• 2:26:39Speaker 02

  When that happens, um, obviously like the AI companies are going to make a lot of money. And people who helped be part of creating it or either directly or indirectly would want to have some role to play in that ecosystem. And a good way to involve them is through giving them some ownership in the company. So as shareholders, if you get dividends from the profits generated by AIs, it's not a bad thing. But that shouldn't be the only thing.

• 2:27:09Joe Rogan?

  Right. So this is similar to like people that live in Alaska. They get a check.

• 2:27:13Speaker 02

  Correct. Alaska, Alaska, Alaska does this and it's not a bad thing. As long as they are doing some other things.

• 2:27:20Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:27:20Speaker 02

  Alongside.

• 2:27:22Joe Rogan?

  It could lessen the burden.

• 2:27:24Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 2:27:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:27:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, and, and if people are interested in still being part of the AI industries, they go do things that AIs are not able to do today. And that's, that's been the case before, like when industrial revolution started. The, the United Kingdom actually started like, like, like projects around building railroads. And that gave a lot of people who were in the cottage industries new jobs. So there are gonna be a lot of new projects to just, okay, like, what if we wanna reimagine the government itself, where the government runs largely on AI?

• 2:27:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that was my next question.

• 2:27:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, so then we need people for that.

• 2:28:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:28:00Speaker 02

  Because thi- this is a legacy industry. It's not, it's not about the capabilities not being there. It's about working through the legacy and bureaucracy to like, actually deploy and implement this inside the most like, like largest institutions in the country. And that's gonna need a new set of skilled workers to go do that. So some people who might be working at Microsoft or something today might actually end up working for the United States government because Microsoft may not need them especially for like, you know, internally deploying AI or selling AI to their customers, but the government needs them. And, and, and if the government can pay them well and it's a fulfilling job to find some meaning for like doing something

• 2:28:41Speaker 02

  good for the country, it's not a bad thing. So I, I, I think like, just like in the industry revolution where we had new projects because the demand for AI was so big, we're gonna start seeing some new projects being created in AI as well when the capability is advanced enough that they can replace knowledge workers.

• 2:28:59Joe Rogan?

  That's the rosy scenario.

• 2:29:02Speaker 02

  It's not as rosy. Like, the real world is messy. A lot of things are still done through trusting other human beings. Nobody is like blindly trusting AIs. AIs still make a lot of mistakes.

• 2:29:13Joe Rogan?

  I know a lot of people are hesitant to the idea of AI running government, and I get it. But also, look at what the people are doing. Look at how much corruption there is, how much fraud and waste. Imagine if all fraud, waste, and corruption was instantaneously eliminated.

• 2:29:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, that was what Elon tried to do with Doge, right?

• 2:29:32Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:29:33Speaker 02

  And, and then I think the bottleneck there was just discovering how slow it is to do things. He's not, he's not used to running that slow.

• 2:29:41Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:29:41Speaker 02

  And.

• 2:29:42Joe Rogan?

  Also how much resistance.

• 2:29:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:29:43Joe Rogan?

  Because there was so much grift.

• 2:29:45Speaker 02

  Correct. Yeah, so.

• 2:29:48Speaker 02

  Honestly, like more than AI, the government is running a lot of legacy software stack. Because a lot of these legacy enterprise companies just have created these multi-decade or like year contracts that are hard to get out of. And the way they do that is to sell it at a much larger discount. And like, you know, like if you're on on like a specific OS, you're not allowed to change this for like 10 years. You have to use the same sort of software. All these people you hired only know to use that tool. So it takes time to actually change and implement new things. Leave alone AI, just if you just wanted to like move everybody from Windows machines to like Mac machines. Good luck with that, it's going to take a lot of time. That's the state of the the system.

• 2:30:33Speaker 02

  And so that has nothing to do with the technology. And so to do things in such messy systems, you still need people. Still need people to navigate all these changes. It's not about the capability of technology, it's more about how the system is structured. And that's why I still feel there will be new jobs. That maybe the, you know, there's a lot of new projects to be done. Maybe some good leader actually wants to change the system and is willing to be patient about it like, you know, over a five to 10 year horizon. If you take 10 years to actually like run majority of the government processes on AIs, it may seem slow to you today, but in the grand scheme of things, it's actually good for the country.

• 2:31:16Speaker 02

  And that's still going to need a lot of nice engineers to go work on these projects. So they're not going to lose all their jobs. There's going to be some displacement, there's going to be some new projects, there's going to be new priorities. But it'll it'll keep going, the system will keep going because that's just how historically things have been.

• 2:31:34Joe Rogan?

  When you think about the future of AI and you think of this. So what do you think about AGI in particular? You think about something that could potentially make better versions of itself.

• 2:31:47Speaker 02

  Self-replicating.

• 2:31:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and then how far does it go?

• 2:31:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, so that is the that is the ultimate form of. I think some people in Silicon Valley have started calling that as ASI. So when you see the word ASI being thrown around, like, people kind of think of ASI as an AGI that can recursively self-improve itself. So that's gonna be on, there's gonna be no limits to how smart it can get.

• 2:32:14Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:32:14Speaker 02

  And I used to think that ASI is bottlenecked by power because you need a ton of compute for this model to keep on training itself and running its own rollouts and collecting data and then going and updating itself. But you could imagine that once the algorithm is correct, the ASI could be tasked with just making itself more efficient too. Where improvement doesn't just mean capability improvement, improvement could also mean power efficiency. And that way the recursive safe ASI that is improving itself also makes itself more compact and more efficient. And it can run on less compute. So that would be the ultimate project in AI.

• 2:32:57Speaker 02

  Think of it as almost as the last project in AI is basically cracking recursive self-improvement. Once you crack that, you don't have anything else to work on.

• 2:33:06Speaker 02

  In practice, I think what's gonna happen is because information is so muddled and fragmented and living in disjointed systems, just the way we have constructed our messy real world, it's gonna be hard to point even a recursively self-improving AI at some metric and say, go improve this. Or go reduce inflation by 5%. That'll be awesome if you can task an AI to do that. If that's the job of the government to just reduce inflation, have a deflationary effect on society and make make goods and services a lot more abundant and efficient. It's gonna have to deal with a lot of messy legacy systems. If the task is to go improve the healthcare, for good luck, like,

• 2:33:47Speaker 02

  who's gonna deal with all the compliance of actually implementing these changes inside hospitals? Most hospitals are still using legacy software because that's, the software provider has lobbied the government in a way where only they're allowed to do that.

• 2:34:02Joe Rogan?

  God, what a stupid bottleneck.

• 2:34:04Speaker 02

  Exactly. So, a lot of the bottlenecks in actually having AIs just take over and massively improve the human society and our hospitals, our legal systems, our government systems, where most of the payroll is going into, is just bottlenecked by a lot of compliance and regulation. And so, that's why I feel the human beings are still necessary to effect the change.

• 2:34:29Speaker 02

  Because these laws and regulations were built for us.

• 2:34:32Joe Rogan?

  It also seems like we have to demand that those systems be usurped.

• 2:34:37Speaker 02

  Sure, hundred percent. And we need the help of AIs to rewrite all these laws. It's gonna be humanly impossible to go and change

• 2:34:45Speaker 02

  one specific line here and there.

• 2:34:47Joe Rogan?

  Right. And then you're gonna have a bunch of these software companies that are lobbying to try to stop that from happening.

• 2:34:51Speaker 02

  Exactly. That's why, like, this messiness and this need for getting all people on the same page and actually steering the society in a positive way, our jobs will probably be more steered towards that. Problem solving at a different level of abstraction, maybe more need for EQ, more need for actually, like, understanding differences of opinion and still, like, a leadership quality, ability to understand people, and ability to convince people. These are the skills that will be even more important in a world where, like, actual work can be done by AIs, but affecting the change in our society, in our country, still needs human beings.

• 2:35:36Speaker 02

  Because the systems are messy.

• 2:35:40Joe Rogan?

  It's a weird world we're in right now.

• 2:35:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:35:43Joe Rogan?

  It's never been weirder.

• 2:35:44Speaker 02

  That said, there's a lot of things that that can still go wrong when you give power so much power to, you know, like specific companies. And they deploy all these bots and then anybody can use them in weird ways. You don't even know if like you're talking to a real person anymore.

• 2:36:03Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:36:03Speaker 02

  They're like people who just run AI responses and chat with like five hundred people at once. And that's like a whole business. And so I think it's gonna it's gonna take a lot of adjustment.

• 2:36:17Joe Rogan?

  Well, the other piece of adjustment that a lot of people are coming to grips with is that this is a new part of our conversation. And that in twenty twenty, like when I first moved here, AI was never discussed.

• 2:36:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:36:28Joe Rogan?

  It was not a thing.

• 2:36:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:36:29Joe Rogan?

  I mean, we knew about it. We knew about AI.

• 2:36:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:36:32Joe Rogan?

  But it wasn't like you it wasn't a huge part of the cultural discussion of what the future holds for us.

• 2:36:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:36:40Joe Rogan?

  Now it is.

• 2:36:40Speaker 02

  It is it is central. Yeah.

• 2:36:42Joe Rogan?

  And in that short amount of time, in just six years.

• 2:36:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:36:45Joe Rogan?

  It really makes you wonder, because we know how technology progresses exponentially.

• 2:36:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:36:51Joe Rogan?

  What it's gonna look like six years from now.

• 2:36:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, the twenty twenty eight, like, like, you're definitely my prediction is twenty twenty eight election debates are gonna be largely about AI.

• 2:36:59Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:37:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. AI, energy crisis, the power, power. The people are gonna care about all these things.

• 2:37:11Speaker 02

  Because it AI is no longer a thing that is new. It's part of all our lives. Everyone's using some form of AI in in some ways. And it's not as dangerous as people thought. It's it's an amazing tool for like doing work and asking questions and learning things and all these things.

• 2:37:28Joe Rogan?

  When used correctly.

• 2:37:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:37:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:37:30Speaker 02

  Can also be used incorrectly.

• 2:37:32Joe Rogan?

  Like everything.

• 2:37:33Speaker 02

  Like everything. So it's far more powerful that incorrect usage can cause serious damage.

• 2:37:40Speaker 02

  Like, like, for example, people, kids who are using AIs for like companionship.

• 2:37:45Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:37:46Speaker 02

  Crazy things are happening there. Crazy things are happening.

• 2:37:48Joe Rogan?

  Not good.

• 2:37:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, it it it's even, it's it's as dangerous as, or probably more dangerous than social media. And it's also scary that social media companies wanna build more of these kind of like companionship apps. Because they know that, okay, their only job is to get you engaged more, and that's the only way to sell more ads and make more money. And clearly companionship is a way to get you engaged more.

• 2:38:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:38:14Speaker 02

  And so that's dangerous. If if ads start being part of like AI chats.

• 2:38:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:38:20Speaker 02

  Because then if tha- and that ends up working, then all these at chatbots is gonna be sycophants that just tell you stuff that you you you wanna hear.

• 2:38:31Joe Rogan?

  It's also, it's an indistinguishable, indistinguishable facsimile to a real person. Like, they communicate like a real person.

• 2:38:37Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:38:38Joe Rogan?

  So you really think you have a relationship with this.

• 2:38:40Speaker 02

  Right. And and and it it truly um screws with your mind. It's hard to like decouple and like it takes a lot of time to recover if you wanna like, you know, unplug. And um so the business model incentives are not realigned to humanity.

• 2:38:56Joe Rogan?

  Did you see that um AI companion that they developed that was at the Consumer Electronics Show in Vegas this year?

• 2:39:04Speaker 02

  Which one?

• 2:39:04Joe Rogan?

  It's like a hot Asian lady.

• 2:39:06Speaker 02

  I see. Yeah, yeah, these are, these are the weird kind of projects that are going on.

• 2:39:11Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's a hot Asian lady that talks to you.

• 2:39:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:39:14Joe Rogan?

  And, you know, she talks to you through AI. And right now, it's just a kind of a crude sort of robot, but

• 2:39:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:39:21Joe Rogan?

  you could see where it's going.

• 2:39:22Speaker 02

  You could see where it's going.

• 2:39:23Joe Rogan?

  Ex Machina.

• 2:39:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:39:24Joe Rogan?

  It's going

• 2:39:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:39:26Joe Rogan?

  right there.

• 2:39:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, that movie was

• 2:39:29Joe Rogan?

  Amazing.

• 2:39:30Speaker 02

  quite far ahead of its time.

• 2:39:31Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 2:39:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:39:32Joe Rogan?

  That was, that's one of my top ten favorite movies of all time.

• 2:39:35Speaker 02

  It's underrated, actually, because pe- like, reviews on online say it's not as good, but I liked it.

• 2:39:41Joe Rogan?

  I loved it.

• 2:39:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:39:42Joe Rogan?

  I thought it was fantastic.

• 2:39:43Speaker 02

  I like it better than her.

• 2:39:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, her, I lost her after a while. I shut it off.

• 2:39:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:39:48Joe Rogan?

  It lost my attention. I'm sure it's good. It was the wrong time for me to watch it.

• 2:39:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:39:53Joe Rogan?

  But Ex Machina, I've seen it like five times. I fucking love that movie. It's just so, I don't wanna give anything away, but it's it's so incredible and so bleak and so

• 2:40:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:40:04Joe Rogan?

  i- in the relationship that he has with the the hot one.

• 2:40:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:40:09Joe Rogan?

  You believe it. You're like, I'd be right there with them. You know, it's too confusing to our system to have something that looks exactly like the thing that you desire that is actually interested in you. It just happens to be.

• 2:40:20Speaker 02

  Could impose all your data.

• 2:40:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Knows too much about you, knows how to pull your strings.

• 2:40:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:40:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. But listen, man, very fascinating discussion.

• 2:40:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:40:29Joe Rogan?

  I'm glad we did it.

• 2:40:29Speaker 02

  Really enjoyed it. Thank you so much.

• 2:40:31Joe Rogan?

  And thanks for having an awesome platform. Perplexity has been great. We really love using it here at the show.

• 2:40:35Speaker 02

  Appreciate it.

• 2:40:36Joe Rogan?

  It's made the show more interesting. It's cool.

• 2:40:38Speaker 02

  Thank you. It's very fulfilling because like we want the app to be used by curious people like that. Like we want to lift the ceiling of what our population can be, you know? Not everyone is like fully curious all the time, but we're all born with it. So at some point in time, the system curbs it from us. So there should be more apps to get us back to what we're naturally good at.

• 2:41:01Joe Rogan?

  It's a fascinating tool for technology or for curiosity, rather, because to be able and it's seamless, the way we use it on the show, because there's always a question.

• 2:41:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:41:10Joe Rogan?

  There's always, it comes up so often, like throw it in perplexity.

• 2:41:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:41:14Joe Rogan?

  Find out what's up.

• 2:41:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:41:15Joe Rogan?

  So it's been great for us. So thank you.

• 2:41:16Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 2:41:17Joe Rogan?

  All right. My pleasure. Bye, everybody.

• 2:41:34Speaker 04

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