#2569 - Bill Thompson

Bill Thompson is a retired U. S. Army chief warrant officer and the founder and CEO of Spartan Forge, a company that develops AI-powered mapping and predictive tools for hunting.www.youtube.com/@spartanforgeaiwww.spartanforge.ai Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Don’t miss out on all the action this week at DraftKings! Download the DraftKings app today! Sign-up using https://dkng.co/rogan or through my promo code ROGAN. https://ketone.com/Rogan for 30% OFF, or find Ketone-IQ at Target nationwide. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

• 0:14Speaker 00

  Put the microphone in front of your face so we can use this. What are you saying?

• 0:17Speaker 01

  Some people think the stuff about the Roadster online was like, you know, it's not real.

• 0:21Speaker 00

  It's 100% real. My friend was there.

• 0:23Speaker 01

  No, no, I, so I'm even like, words are tough to, you have to use your words very carefully, you know?

• 0:30Speaker 00

  Well, here's the thing. Will it be available in the general public?

• 0:33Speaker 01

  Right, probably not.

• 0:34Speaker 00

  No. How could you use it? How could you make that legal where you have a car that can fly over other cars if there's a traffic stop?

• 0:41Speaker 01

  Uh, like, uh, I'm trying to, I guess what some people are saying, it's like, you know, the, um, a ma- a test model car, like, this will not, this is the version where-

• 0:49Speaker 00

  A concept.

• 0:50Speaker 01

  A concept car, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 0:51Speaker 00

  Well, they're, first of all, it probably won't be released anywhere near when they say it's gonna be released, just based on what he's done in the past. I mean, the Roadster, there's a lot of people that paid $250,000 for the Roadster in 2017.

• 1:03Speaker 02

  I know a guy who did that.

• 1:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, I know a guy who did that, too. And like, imagine, you did that back then, and you were expecting that car. You got a completely different design.

• 1:13Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:14Speaker 00

  I mean, completely different looking car, now it has the fucking Lamborghini doors, and it flies. What? This guy's nuts. I would, he's, he's so out of his mind. He's got too much money. He just does whatever the fuck he wants.

• 1:28Speaker 01

  I'm not with the people saying it's fake with wires and stuff. Some people said that there was wires on cranes, and, yeah, I don't, I'm not buying that.

• 1:35Speaker 00

  No, well, there is already a car that does that trick where it can go upside down. There's this, uh, there's this race car, uh, God, I forget the name of it, but it actually has a fan underneath the bottom of the car that acts as a suction, and this car does insane lap times, because it's absolutely glued to the ground.

• 1:54Speaker 02

  Perfect handling.

• 1:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, perfect handling, and it's only a one-seater car.

• 1:58Speaker 01

  McMur- Mercury's Burrow.

• 2:00Speaker 00

  That's it.

• 2:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:02Speaker 00

  Um, put some headphones on. Watch this thing. Put it, see if you can find, it's a, it's a hype, yeah, see, that's it. It goes upside down. This thing is literally crazy. It, it blows away all of the lap times on every single racetrack, because, first of all, it's really light, really tiny, has insane power, because it's all electric, and it has so much suction at the bottom that it can go upside down. So they were the first ones to at least demo this type of tech, and they did it on this car. Like, this car literally has so much suction, give me some volume so you can hear this. So this is a literal suction cup underneath the engine that's allowing this thing to

• 2:45Speaker 00

  hold its entire body weight, which has gotta be like, I would imagine, at least close to 2,000 pounds.

• 2:52Speaker 02

  I wonder if it's one of those carbon fiber bodies, carbon fiber everything?

• 2:55Speaker 00

  Even if it is, with the engines and the batteries, so if it was a combustion engine car, maybe it could be under 2,000 pounds. Like, there's a few Porsches, like, they make some really old, like, resto mod Porsches from like, the 1960s and early 1970s that can get under 2,000 pounds. They, like, there's this guy that worked for, God, I think he worked for Bugatti or something like that, one of those crazy, high-tech car companies, and he built a car that was completely the opposite. He built a car where he stripped everything out of it, he made like, a 1969 Porsche, stripped everything out of it, made all of the panels fiberglass, and he got it to like, 1,800

• 3:40Speaker 00

  pounds.

• 3:41Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 3:42Speaker 00

  And the idea is like, that is like, the most visceral driving experience, the most connected you are to a car, the lighter they are. The heavier they are, they can get really crazy with performance, like, my Tesla's probably like, 4,000 pounds, but it just, it's like a time machine.

• 4:00Speaker 02

  Isn't the Cybertruck like, 7 or 8, or something like that?

• 4:02Speaker 00

  Well, that's even bigger, right? I have the Model S, but the Cybertruck is all, it's all cold-stamped steel, I think that's the, the type of steel, but it's incredibly heavy.

• 4:12Speaker 02

  I ordered one of those, and then I ended up pulling out.

• 4:15Speaker 00

  What happened?

• 4:16Speaker 02

  I kinda regret it. I don't know, I just, I wanted one, I loved, I just liked the idea of it. Very seldom that I would look at a car and just smile every time I looked at a car, and every time I looked at that Cybertruck, I just smiled. So I was like, I kinda want one of those, and then I put the money down, and my wife was like, "What are you doing?" And I was like, "I want one." Like, I've always been a Ford guy, so I've got like, a Ford Tremor, which I love that truck, and, uh, so I put the money down, and then I started hearing like, other guys got them, and they're like, "Oh, there's some issues and bugs being worked out." So I was a coward, and I pulled out. I shouldn't have done it, but I did.

• 4:46Speaker 00

  Well, you can get one now.

• 4:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 4:48Speaker 00

  I mean, they're making, I'm sure they make them better now, I'm sure they're-

• 4:51Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 4:52Speaker 00

  They've figured out whatever the kinks were.

• 4:54Speaker 02

  It's like, any other thing, with the first generation, it's gonna have kinks that have to be worked out.

• 4:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, but there's some issues where people like, pulling the panels off, and some of the panels were like, literally glued on, but they fixed all that stuff now. So this is the thing in the air. Honestly, though, I, completely honestly, I like the look of the original model better.

• 5:11Speaker 02

  I do, too. That's, that's-

• 5:13Speaker 00

  I think it looked cooler. The original Roadster, it looked more like a modern supercar, and that looks more like a Lamborghini.

• 5:22Speaker 02

  Looks like a Lamborghini had a baby with a Cybertruck.

• 5:24Speaker 00

  Right.

• 5:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:26Speaker 00

  And not even like, a new Lamborghini, like, a Lamborghini from the 90s.

• 5:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:30Speaker 00

  Which are cool.

• 5:31Speaker 02

  Like a Countach.

• 5:32Speaker 00

  Yeah. It's just like, it, like, that one is sick.

• 5:35Speaker 02

  That's slick.

• 5:36Speaker 00

  That's, that thing's sick. That looks amazing. That's the, I mean, maybe they could redo that, I don't know.

• 5:42Speaker 02

  It's a crazy world.

• 5:46Speaker 00

  It's, these things are weird. It's weird that you can get a car that goes 0 to 60, that is gonna be real. It's gonna go 0 to 60 in under a second. That's fucking insane.

• 5:55Speaker 02

  Well, at that test, it was .8, .9 seconds or something like that?

• 5:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's crazy.

• 5:59Speaker 02

  That's, that's like, you're gonna liquefy your insides if you go any faster.

• 6:02Speaker 00

  Well, it's half the speed of sound, right? I mean, it's, it's a full, top speed, rather. Its top speed is, uh, half the speed of sound, which is just insane. I think it's like, top speed is over 300 miles an hour. What is half the speed of sound? Is it like, 380 or something?

• 6:18Speaker 01

  Said 360.

• 6:19Speaker 00

  360? That's insane.

• 6:21Speaker 02

  That's-

• 6:22Speaker 00

  Fucking insane.

• 6:23Speaker 02

  I mean, I like going fast, but I don't know if I wanna go that fast.

• 6:27Speaker 00

  I, I like, uh, I like going fast, but what I really like is the feeling of a car. That's what, unless you're a race car driver, all the how fast you go is all horseshit. They're all fast. Every car's fast. You can get a, you wanna like, the bargain, this is like, the absolute best cool car bargain. Get a Ford Mustang GT.

• 6:50Speaker 02

  My, my favorite car of all time, and I've been saying this for years, and I've never bought one, but my sister and her husband used to race Mustangs, and he had a 71 Ford Mach 1, with the big, big back end, and, uh, he eventually turned it into like, what they call a super calm funny car. So it became alcohol-fueled, and the only thing that was original was like, the back end, but everything else got replaced over time. It was a funny car, essentially, but I've been in love with that car since I was like, 8 years old. Like, I just look at that, and I think to myself, that is, like, that is muscle car par excellence, like, it's the perfect-

• 7:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, and those cars aren't the best to drive.

• 7:25Speaker 02

  No, no, hell no.

• 7:26Speaker 00

  They don't handle that good.

• 7:27Speaker 02

  No.

• 7:28Speaker 00

  But it's the feeling that you get when you're driving them. It's like, you're driving a ride. Like, when my kids were little, they used to love this one ride at Disneyland, God, what is it called? It's, it's based on the movie Cars. It's like, you get in a car, and you're kinda steering, and you're going, it's like, you're on tracks, and you're going around-

• 7:45Speaker 02

  Like the Lightning McQueen car?

• 7:46Speaker 00

  Yeah. I forget. There's two car rides. There's one car ride where you're not steering, you're just in a car, it's like a rollercoaster, and there's a car next to you, and you're supposedly racing. This one's different. This one, you, you get in these little cars, you actually do kinda steer them.

• 8:00Speaker 02

  Huh.

• 8:01Speaker 00

  And they're, they're fun, and it's not fast, it's like, but it's like, loud, and you feel the steering and the engine, like, that's what I like. I like cars that engage you, like, they, there's a visceral connection, there's like, there's some sort of a mechanical connection, you feel it. This show is presented by DraftKings. Think DraftKings isn't available in your state? Think again. The cage is set, and DraftKings keeps the full card at your fingertips in one sports app live in all 50 states. Download the DraftKings Sports app and use the code ROGEN. New customers can spend $5 and get $200 in bonuses within 21 days. That's code ROGEN. Spend $5, get $200 in bonuses.

• 8:44Speaker 00

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• 11:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, I did driving courses while as a military. We had like, what you would call, I guess it was called at the time like a high-risk officer pipeline. So the, I guess like the expectation would be at some point you might be caught or captured. So there's all these different courses that they send you through in order to, you know, it's like Seer School on steroids. But one of the courses was, for like a week and a half, all you do is learn how to drive. Like, they have rally car instructors come and teach you how to drive and like how to do trail turns and how to, you know, navigate a course. And then you do on-road, off-road, and like, they put you in all kinds of crazy scenarios. Like, at one point, they drive

• 11:52Speaker 02

  you up to a checkpoint and you've got a bag over your head. And they put you at the checkpoint and they say, alright, we're gonna take this bag off. When we take the bag off of your head, react to the situation like it's an operational scenario, and you can employ whatever you need to do. Like, they basically just want to see how you do it under pressure, but it's part of the car course. So you're at this checkpoint, and you know, for me, it was, you know, the guards started freaking out, and then they're shooting blanks and stuff. And basically, they just want to see, because they teach you exactly how to do it. Like, you plant your left foot, or you, yeah, you plant your left foot, you stand up, you get behind yourself, and then steer backwards. And like, how can you navigate a serpentine in reverse in a car while under fire and get out of a situation? It was a

• 12:37Speaker 02

  lot of fun. The courses were a ton of fun, and you learn like from the best drivers in the world. And like everything in life, you think, you have a conception of how these things will be before you get into them. It's like golf. Like, I really, I got into golf years ago because I was told I would suck at it. And, because I was a rugby player at the time. And it was my, you know, father-in-law said, you're not a golfer. You're, you're a large blunt instrument. Like, go keep playing rugby. And so I was like, fuck this guy. I'm gonna fucking be as good at golf as I can. So, you know, at first, I was trying to lift the ball, or I was trying to over-correct and prevent a slice by really strengthening my grip. It was actually, no, you gotta hit from the inside to the out. You gotta

• 13:22Speaker 02

  transfer your weight here. You actually, if you want the ball to go high, you need to hit down on it. And it was the same thing with cars. If you want to drive fast, keep your tires in contact with the road as much as possible, use the brake to front-load the weight. Because we were driving interceptor Impalas in the course. So it's like, most of the weight's in the front, so you want to apply brakes through the corners. People think Fast and Furious is like the fastest way to drive a car. You know, I should say the public consciousness. Obviously, anyone who's ever been around a race car driver or watches race cars knows, you need the wheels in contact with the road as much as possible. You, you try to draw a straight line through the course and navigate that straight line. So if you're cutting corners and stuff like that, to keep the cars as

• 14:05Speaker 02

  straight a line as possible. Steer as little as possible. Don't oversteer, like you always see in the movies, like people are oversteering like the car. And it's like, no, like, the guy at the course was like, never oversteer. If you have to put one hand over the other, you're failing. Feed one hand, feed the wheel from one hand to the other, and, and take a trail turn. And if you oversteer, you're gonna lose contact with the ground and you're gonna be slower. So it was all these opposites. I guess the point is-

• 14:31Speaker 00

  Opposites of perception, you mean?

• 14:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. You have a perception going in that this is like a fast, like, when I get really good at this course, I'm gonna be, you know, what do they call it? Like, in Fast and the Furious, when they're, you know, taking a really tight corner and their back end swings out and the car's squealing. I don't remember the-

• 14:49Speaker 00

  Sliding.

• 14:49Speaker 02

  Drifting.

• 14:50Speaker 00

  Drifting.

• 14:50Speaker 02

  Drifting. Like, you think, like, you know, 25, 30-year-old me at the time was like, this is what I'm gonna be doing by the end of the course. Like, no, apply the brake and take the turn. Trail turn it correctly. Keep the wheels on the ground.

• 15:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's the key, is knowing the limitations of the car and being able to avoid doing that.

• 15:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:06Speaker 00

  If you want to get around quicker.

• 15:08Speaker 02

  It's been the case for me in life. Anytime I learned something at a very high level, like even with archery, like, the slower you can pull the trigger on the release, and, and, and, my instinct would be like, slap it. And some people slap it and do fine. But for me, it's the same with long-distance shooting. Like, when I take a long-distance shooting course, pull that trigger. So you almost can't even anticipate where the, where the, where it's gonna fire, at what point it's gonna fire. Like, manipulate the play and pull the trigger as slow as possible, and that will be the most accurate shot you're gonna take. If the shot surprises you, nine times out of 10, it's gonna be more accurate than a shot that you've anticipated.

• 15:46Speaker 00

  Right, because you're anticipating recoil.

• 15:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:49Speaker 00

  There's, there's a caveat to that. The caveat to that is there's some very high-level archers that win a lot of big tournaments that do what they call command trigger.

• 16:00Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 16:01Speaker 00

  And I think what's going on there is those guys learned how to shoot a surprise shot first. And those guys, almost all those guys, those target guys, they use a hinge.

• 16:12Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 16:12Speaker 00

  And, or at least, sometimes they use a hinge. A lot of them use thumb buttons now. But, and they use a thumb button like a hinge, they just load it up with back pressure until it goes off-

• 16:20Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 16:21Speaker 00

  -in a surprise shot. But, there's, there's guys like James Lutz, and there's a few of these, Kyle Douglas, Tim Gillingham. These guys win giant tournaments, and they command shoot.

• 16:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 16:33Speaker 00

  So they shoot, what they do is they put the pin over the, and they know how to stay stable.

• 16:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:38Speaker 00

  And they've done it for so long, and they have tremendous back pressure on the trigger, or on the bow they're pulling.

• 16:45Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 16:45Speaker 00

  And then they hit the trigger when they want it to go.

• 16:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:47Speaker 00

  They can keep their shit together. And I think it's, it's a mental thing. The real problem with people in target paddock is two things. One, if you're in a tournament, like, and you're shooting, if you're getting targeted, like, those guys are shooting, if people have never seen a Vegas round. So what a Vegas round is, you have three targets, and you're shooting at 20 meters, and you're shooting, you're trying to hit a dime at 20 meters 30 times. And so that's how you get a 300 score.

• 17:17Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 17:17Speaker 00

  This guy, Lutz, just shot 719. So he, at a 720. 720 is possible. So at a 72 arrows, this motherfucker only got a nine once. And he's command shooting.

• 17:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:33Speaker 00

  This is the thing. It's like, so it's not, it's not a steadfast rule.

• 17:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:38Speaker 00

  But to overcome the pressure of that anticipation and flinching, that's when people turn to a surprise shot. I think the pressure's the problem. It's not the technique of releasing. Because if you show someone how to shoot a bow, and they put the target, they put the pin over the target, they hit the trigger-

• 18:20Speaker 00

  For a while, they're good at it, right? So what happens? What makes them not be good anymore? Well, it's clearly their mind. It's clearly the pressure. And so I think maybe you can be just as accurate, if not more accurate, using a command shot. But you need to understand how your mind is working. And you need to understand how to mitigate pressure and how to stay calm. And I think there's only a few ways to do that. There's strategies that you can use, you can learn techniques. But the reality is, when a big moment hits you, you're gonna freak out. So I think the strategy might be just have a bunch of big moments. Have more big moments in your life. More instances in your life where you have to deal with pressure.

• 19:05Speaker 00

  And that kind of tracks with everything else in life. The people that have dealt with pressure, that understand pressure and know how to perform, they can kind of do anything. You can kind of go from that and be involved in all sorts of other things that involve pressure. But if you don't know pressure at all, and then all of a sudden, there's a screaming bull elk in front of you at 40 yards, and all you've been shooting at is a target, you're gonna panic. Especially if you're not a pressure person. Now, if you are a pressure person, you're probably still gonna freak out the first couple of times, but eventually you'll figure it out.

• 19:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, your road to figuring out will be a lot quicker. If you've dealt with pressure in the past.

• 19:44Speaker 00

  That's what I think.

• 19:46Speaker 02

  With Spartan Forge, we have a guy on our ambassadors, I guess you'd call them. I don't like any of the terms. He's a guy that we trust to consult for us on features in the app. And then he'll talk about the app. His name is Levi Morgan.

• 19:58Speaker 00

  Oh, he's the best.

• 19:59Speaker 02

  He's a fantastic archer. And just spending time around those guys, they definitely have a way of... Because we had an archery competition a couple of years ago, everyone in the company, and he was part of it. What's funny is, now, if we were to do this nine times out of 10, this guy wouldn't win. But one of my engineers is this killer named Evan Freed. And he and Levi were in the final... Like 20 guys started this archery competition. It was the two of them at the very end. And Evan beat them.

• 20:26Speaker 00

  Oh, my God.

• 20:27Speaker 02

  I couldn't believe it.

• 20:28Speaker 00

  Weaponized autism.

• 20:29Speaker 02

  He's one of them. He's one of them. I mean, he absolutely was a stone cold killer. And then we did it with these other guys at a TAC event, like a total archery challenge. We went...

• 20:40Speaker 00

  How much did he beat Levi Morgan by?

• 20:42Speaker 02

  I mean, he won. I don't remember exactly what the delta was, but he won.

• 20:45Speaker 00

  That's crazy.

• 20:46Speaker 02

  And nobody could believe it. Like, everyone looked at him like John freaking Wick for the rest of the week. And like, who is this guy that just went and shot at the king and didn't miss? And Levi's the best in the world. And like I said, if they had have done that nine times more, Levi would have won the next nine. But for one moment, for one moment, he was Prometheus.

• 21:06Speaker 00

  I don't know about that. See, there's that we're going back to the mind again. If he can do it once, why can't he keep doing it?

• 21:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, maybe. I mean, there you go, Evan. Maybe you should quit as an engineer for me and go and be a professional archer or something like that.

• 21:18Speaker 00

  There's a lot of these rules that people have for things. And I'm like, well, who invents these rules? Other people. And a lot of times, people invent rules to sort of, to kind of rationalize or deal with their own struggles, right? So they invent rules of like, what you can and can't do, what you can and can't get away with, what works and what doesn't work. You only know what works if you try it and it works. Think DraftKings isn't available in your state? Think again. The cage is set, and DraftKings keeps the full card at your fingertips in one sports app, live in all 50 states. Once the cage door closes, everybody has a pick. DraftKings keeps you close to the pay-per-view card from the first walkout to the final horn.

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• 22:58Speaker 02

  That's a heuristic, which is something I talk about all the time, is people come up with a good enough way to do something that works for them. And it might not work for everyone. Well, another example of this would be Ken Haynes. Doesn't he really slap the... Whenever he fires?

• 23:15Speaker 00

  Well, he kind of pulls it slowly back, but it's definitely a command shot. But then again, look at, first of all, his ability to deal with pressure. Right? He runs 300-mile races, does all this crazy shit. On top of that, he's been a hunter for 30 years, plus. Probably more, probably 40 now, right? So he's been hunting most of his life. And he's had so much experience pulling the trigger on animals.

• 23:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. And that reps, it's all about reps.

• 23:41Speaker 00

  It's all about reps with everything in life. And it's all about, it's not just reps, it's recent reps. You know, it's like having the amount of repetitions, like recently, to the point where it's a normal, natural part of your psychology, the way your mind works.

• 23:56Speaker 02

  I'll do that with whitetail hunting is, I always make sure I try to kill two or three doe before I really start zeroing in on going for a buck. Because if a buck's the first thing I'm looking at, and it's been nine months since I've hunted, or six months, or whatever since I've hunted, I'll still get it. I've been hunting for 25 years, and I'll still freak out.

• 24:12Speaker 00

  Buck fever.

• 24:13Speaker 02

  Or get the adrenaline drop afterwards. I don't usually get the... I've never really gotten the adrenaline drop when it's happening. But as soon as that arrow is loosed, then I'm like, I'm just like freaking out, like I don't even know what happened.

• 24:24Speaker 00

  Well, at least you can keep it together before the arrow's loose, because that's where most people fall apart. I mean, I've seen professional, you know, I don't want to call them professional hunters, but people that make their living as hunting influencers, and they have these videos, and you can watch them on YouTube, and they're shaking like a leaf when they're drawing back their bow. And they're like, wow, this guy's been hunting for 40 years. And he still gets jazzed up.

• 24:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's something about that, I think it's why we all want to keep hunting, right? Because it's probably wired...

• 24:50Speaker 00

  Hard to do.

• 24:51Speaker 02

  Well, it's hard to do, for sure. But it's wired into our, you know, however we evolved, however we established over time, one thing is true, is that we were able to stick around and have success because we had these groups of hunters that would go out and hunt for the tribe. So there's wiring in us.

• 25:07Speaker 00

  Hundred percent.

• 25:08Speaker 02

  That hunting might be the only way, or one of the few ways, to tap into that in a way that your body immediately understands.

• 25:15Speaker 00

  Fishing is too.

• 25:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, fishing.

• 25:17Speaker 00

  I always bring, well, I have these comparisons that I do. It's one of the reasons why I say I never go to protests, because protests are like fishing. This is why. Like, fishing is a part of your DNA. Like, you get a little kid... When my daughter was five, it was like the first time I took her fishing. When she caught a fish, she was like so excited, like, oh, oh, oh. It's in you. It's in you. You know that catching this thing means your body's rewarding you with all these good feelings and good endorphins, because now you're gonna eat. You're gonna be able to feed your family. You're gonna be able to survive. When you're protesting, and everyone's walking down the street chanting and cheering, that's too much like war. That excites the part of the brain that thinks we're supposed to smash Starbucks to crush

• 26:01Speaker 00

  the patriarchy, or whatever the fuck you want to do. Light things on fire. When you see people behaving with, you know, air quotes, mob mentality, what is that? I'll tell you what that is. That's war. That's your body's ability to recognize that it's you with a bunch of other people that are supposedly on your side, you're in a life or death situation, and you're against another team. And you're marching and chanting and screaming, and everybody's hyped up. And next thing you know, violence breaks off, and everybody gives into that feeling. Giving into the kind of behavior that would be almost impossible to imagine if you were by yourself. Smashing someone's car window while you're by yourself, walking up to Starbucks with

• 26:43Speaker 00

  a fucking traffic cone and breaking the window and diving in and throwing things off the shelves, you would never do that while you're by yourself. Why are you doing it with this giant group of people? It's the war thing. It's just like the fishing thing. You know, like, oh, it's in you.

• 26:58Speaker 02

  It's that circuitry.

• 26:59Speaker 00

  Let's go. You start, Black Lives Matter, whatever it is, whatever it is, you know? No kings, whatever it is. You start marching down the street, free Palestine. These fucking buildings are keeping us from freeing Palestine. You want to light them on fire. And that's what people do. It's a normal part of us that allowed us to survive to 2026 with tribal warfare.

• 27:20Speaker 02

  Yep. That we needed that circuitry.

• 27:22Speaker 00

  And that feeling that you get from catching a fish, multiply that times 1,000 for archery elk hunting. It's off the charts, the highs and the lows.

• 27:35Speaker 02

  There was a deer I was chasing. I'm more of a whitetail hunter. I've only been elk hunting twice. I want to do it more, I just haven't had the time. And I lived on the eastern seaboard. Most of my career I was in the military, so the option of going west and elk hunting wasn't in the cards for me. So I mostly whitetail hunted. But a couple of years ago, I was hunting a public land buck in the Allegheny that was 12 years old.

• 27:57Speaker 00

  Where's the Allegheny?

• 27:58Speaker 02

  Um, well, it was actually wasn't actually in Allegheny, it was east of there, but it's uh north, it was north central Pennsylvania would have been the better way to say it, but I just say Allegheny cause that's near there. It's farther, it's farther east of there. It's actually a couple hours east of there. But um, anyway, uh, I was hunting up there and uh, there's buck everyone knew about and he was old and huge. And at one point he was like a hundred and seventy inches and it's pretty big for a public land whitetail buck.

• 28:24Speaker 00

  Huge.

• 28:24Speaker 02

  And everyone knew about it and I was going up into this area to hunt where there, he had been historically during the rut. Thermals were wrong in the area. Thermal draw was pulling and, or it was rising still and it should have been pulling at this point. So I was like, this is a bad spot. Like where, where he's at, he's gonna smell me coming in. So I'm just gonna walk to a different part. So I walked to the front of the mountain and just went up there where I knew the thermals would be better. And he was on a doe and I was still on the ground. I hadn't even climbed a tree yet. I was on the ground. And he was pushing a doe into like a ditch and then he popped out and when I saw him, I was like, holy crap, that's him. Like that's the monarch. Everyone called him the monarch. And I was like, ah, like I'm so like, ah, freaking out.

• 29:05Speaker 02

  Anyway, I pulled back and put it right in like double lunged him at like thirty-five yards. And uh, I had like an adrenaline drop for like twenty-five minutes afterwards. I couldn't even call my buddy to come and help me drag him cause I was so, I was freaking out so bad. And uh, it was, it was a consequence of like three years of knowing this buck existed or that he was in the area. And then you put all this time in, like way more time than you should to chase this animal. And you, you have this goal and then all of a sudden it's in front of you and you're like, I can't believe this is happening. This is happening. And then I always say the same thing I used to say in the military when I was shooting, which was to kind of get into my zoning out mode.

• 29:45Speaker 02

  We, I had this acronym I learned in the military, which was stab, steady position, trigger squeeze, aiming and breathing. So every time I'm at full draw, I say to myself very silently, I'm just like steady position, slow trigger squeeze, aim, breathe. And then I always breathe at the perigee of my breath. So I'll take a big breath in, I'll breathe all the way out. So there's no air in my body and then slow pull. And I, when I say that, when I remember to say that to myself, then it's kind of like any panic or anything kind of falls away and I'm just focused on the task of steady position, trigger squeeze, aiming, breathing. But it happened for like twenty-five minutes afterwards, dude.

• 30:18Speaker 00

  Have you studied any of Joel Turner's stuff?

• 30:21Speaker 02

  Uh-uh. I know who he is. Um, we've talked on Instagram a couple of times. I've, I, I mean, I've watched some videos, but to say I've studied him or I know the whole story, I would, that'd be inaccurate.

• 30:31Speaker 00

  Well, his strategy is essentially what you just outlined, just with different words, but the same, the same thing. He, he says you should talk to yourself through the entire shot so that you make this a closed loop thing.

• 30:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:43Speaker 00

  Instead of an open loop thing. And so what that means is an open loop thing is like swinging a baseball bat. Once you start to swing it, you're swinging it.

• 30:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:50Speaker 00

  Right? It's going.

• 30:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:51Speaker 00

  And a closed loop thing is something you could stop at any moment, like writing, when you're writing something down. You could just stop that pen at any moment. It's not like it gets away from you.

• 31:01Speaker 02

  Right.

• 31:02Speaker 00

  So the thing about an archery shot is it can kind of get away from you and that's when you flinch and that's when you're six inches off the mark.

• 31:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:08Speaker 00

  At twenty yards and you don't understand what happened. And it's, that's what he teaches people to avoid. And he was a SWAT team member and he, he would teach people proper techniques in order to, I mean, he learned psychology and he learned like what's going on in the mind in order to be able to execute in those situations that are extremely high stress. Hostage situations, like you had to shoot somebody that was holding someone hostage.

• 31:34Speaker 02

  Right.

• 31:34Speaker 00

  See, he's been in those things and he realizes that that's a life or death situation that can be mitigated by a, a certain amount of understanding of what's happening in the mind and what causes open loop or closed loop thinking. And so what you're doing is instigating closed loop thinking by talking to yourself the entire time. So by having every moment controlled and every moment calm and you have a system and you're actually saying that system through your head, that's what keeps you in the present, in the moment, instead of just panicking. Like a lot of people do. We've all seen it. People just freak out.

• 32:10Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 32:11Speaker 00

  And some people don't understand what is happening in their mind. So they just repeat these things over and over again. And they have good days and bad days and they don't understand where the bad days are coming from. And what is it? Well, what it is, is your mind got away from you and sometimes the mind can just run amok.

• 32:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:27Speaker 00

  It can just take, like, that's why people have anxiety attacks. I mean, maybe some of the reasons why people, I don't wanna say. But I don't know why people have anxiety attacks, but some people have anxiety attacks because they start thinking about some, something and dreading it. And then it builds up in their mind and then all of a sudden it's just a runaway train inside their brain. And they haven't developed personal methods for stopping that and mitigating that kind of stress. And, and recognizing what's happening while it's happening and then talking yourself down off the ledge and just peace of mind, getting, getting yourself to a peaceful place. Some people don't have those strategies. So the moment something goes sideways, especially if they're not used to pressure,

• 33:11Speaker 00

  the moment something goes sideways, it just runs away from them.

• 33:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. So lots of people say lots of things about me. I, I remember Andy on here talking smack about me being Captain America of autism. That's the first thing that comes to mind. Andy's the best. He's, I mean, I talk to Andy almost every day. He's become one of my closest, like I shouldn't say closest friends. I should say someone I regularly talk to and he's good for me. Because he's kind of the opposite of me in ways, like he, like, like my wife and I are good for each other in the way that she worries about everything. She's worried right now. She's sitting outside worried out of her mind right now about something, probably something she hasn't even talked to me about. I almost worry about nothing until it becomes something that's important to me. Like if someone asks me to do some work or something that's particularly important.

• 34:00Speaker 02

  Then I care about like, okay, this work will represent me. I gotta do it as diligently as I can. Um, my, my representation reflects on my family. So then things, I start caring about things. But if I do have a superpower, I would say it was imposed on me in a weird way by my mother. My mother was a alcoholic and um, would go to AA meetings and drag me along, like when I was really young. And uh, she, they would say the Serenity Prayer at the beginning of every um, Alcoholics Anonymous meeting, which was God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, wisdom to the difference. So I'd be standing here and watching these people tell these insane stories, like I went on the seven day vendor.

• 34:41Speaker 02

  I'm from Missouri. I woke up in Las Vegas and I'd just be like, what am I doing here? I'm like nine years old. Like what is, what is happening? But that did stick with me and um, I would say that's one of my superpowers is if I can't affect something, I don't worry about it. Like if there's nothing I can do about it, like I just had a conversation with my daughter about this last night. She was worried about teenager things. I was like, look, you know, I've told you the Serenity Prayer, your alma, my, my mother used to tell you, tell me. Like try to just live by that. And that kind of goes to the things we're talking about with shooting is let's just focus on the things we control and let's develop a heuristic or a way to get through this closed loop system that you're talking about. And for me, it was a heuristic because it was just something the military taught me that worked particularly well.

• 35:25Speaker 02

  I didn't know all the psychology or stuff that you were talking about it there. But um, I would say if I had one superpower, it's my ability to just not care when I can't affect the outcome.

• 35:34Speaker 00

  That's very wise.

• 35:35Speaker 02

  I wouldn't, yeah, and I wouldn't say it's my wisdom. It's something I adopted from someone else, but it's served me particularly well in life. Cause whether it was in Iraq or Afghanistan or the Philippines or Africa or anywhere else I was in like a shady situation is like, okay, this is going horribly. What can I focus on? I can get on the radio. I can do this. I can do that. Like let's do those things. And let's get out of here. Um, and so it's, it's served me really well. Um, so.

• 36:03Speaker 00

  Well, I think that's the proper strategy for navigating life correctly. I, I, I think the opposite, like just freaking out about everything, every time it happens, that just doesn't, it doesn't serve you. I think what we're talking about earlier is an issue too. Like think about all the things you just said, all the different places you were where things went sideways. Like most people don't have those experiences and that's one of the reasons why most people are not resilient. And I think you need a certain amount of very high pressure situations in your life in order to kind of

• 36:38Speaker 00

  galvanize your character.

• 36:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:40Speaker 00

  You know?

• 36:40Speaker 02

  Find out who you are when the chips are down.

• 36:42Speaker 00

  You don't know who you are. Like we've all seen these guys, they're getting in fistfights online. Um, and they, these videos online and they don't know how to fight and yet they talk themselves into this fight. They, it's almost like they want to believe and they want to convince this other person they want to fight. And then they think they're gonna be able to do it and everyone's watching. I'm just gonna hit this guy and it doesn't work out.

• 37:05Speaker 02

  No.

• 37:05Speaker 00

  And they wind up a highlight reel and everyone makes fun of them and then their life is literally ruined now. When I was a kid, if you got your ass kicked, no one knew but you and the guys who kicked your ass.

• 37:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. And it happened all the time for me. It was like every two or three weeks, somebody would be getting in a fight.

• 37:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:20Speaker 02

  Fighting was so common for me, growing up in like in a farm town in the middle of North Dakota.

• 37:24Speaker 00

  Oh, I'm sure.

• 37:24Speaker 02

  It was the highlight of our month.

• 37:26Speaker 00

  Nothing else to do.

• 37:26Speaker 02

  Like if the school bully and someone else threw down or whatever and that guy won or like, it was just like, this is awesome.

• 37:32Speaker 00

  But everybody got over it after a while and you forgot about the fight. Cause there'd been ten other fights since then and life moved on.

• 37:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:39Speaker 00

  Now, if you get your ass fucked up in a, if you, you go to talk some shit to some dude in a convenience store in front of his girlfriend, he KOs you.

• 37:47Speaker 02

  With a can or something like.

• 37:48Speaker 00

  And someone's got the thing in your face like, oh shit, you got knocked the fuck out.

• 37:53Speaker 02

  The internet remembers.

• 37:54Speaker 00

  They remember forever and all your friends remember, all, all the people that hate you remember.

• 37:59Speaker 02

  You become a meme.

• 37:59Speaker 00

  Yeah. It's a way more difficult time to fuck up than ever in the past, but.

• 38:05Speaker 02

  It's one of those things too where I, I said this while, I just did Andy's podcast like three weeks ago.

• 38:12Speaker 02

  But it, it's like essentially we can, if you don't force, you said, talked about resilience, but if you don't force, um, The harshness of nature upon you, like if you don't adopt it and try to put yourself in situations where things will get hard so you can find out who you are, you can do this in a multitude of ways, right? You can do it with jujitsu. You can go to a jujitsu gym and get your ass handed to you time after time and just understand like, okay, I'm not the badass I thought I was. And there's a whole wealth of things that I can learn for the next 50 years. And so you're adopting something or like hunting, my friends that I do, we do fasted hunts together. We were gonna do this one this year, but Spartan Forge kept me from-

• 38:50Speaker 00

  Fasted?

• 38:51Speaker 02

  Fasted. So what we do is we take a cooler, we pack it with drinks and food and accoutrement, like salads and stuff like that. And then we get a yeti and we lock it. And then one of the wives has the code for the yeti. And she doesn't give us the code for the yeti until we kill something. So we have to send her a picture of a doe or send a picture of a buck or something like that. And so we'll just have saltwater and we'll fast for two or three days. And then, you know, somebody kills a doe finally. Like there's in the past when we do, there'd be five or six of us. So someone's gonna kill in the first few couple of days. The shortest time was ever like 36 hours, the longest time, I think we went four days. And you're just hunting fasted. And it's the best feeling

• 39:33Speaker 02

  in the world when someone texts and says like doe down. It's like when you're three days into like, and I'm a heavy guy, so I can go a long time without food. Like I usually do a quarterly fast where I'll go, the shortest is usually two or three days and the longest I'll do is seven days.

• 39:48Speaker 00

  But isn't that different when you're out hunting? Like you're burning off a lot of cows.

• 39:53Speaker 02

  It wears it down a lot quicker.

• 39:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. So like by day three, you're hurting. And so we, we, we have always killed within, was except for one time, we've always killed within three days. But the sense of community, and we talked about the wiring that it taps into, like when you're sitting around a fire with like five, six people and nobody's eaten, and now you're texting the photo and you're opening the cooler and like-

• 40:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:16Speaker 02

  You wanna, you wanna cry almost. You're like, oh, man, you're the best. I was just, I can't believe you did this. This is the best day ever. Oh, my God. Like you're just, you're feeling like you're on top of the world.

• 40:25Speaker 00

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• 42:01Speaker 02

  And it's, you just kill the doe.

• 42:03Speaker 00

  I know, but that's what we're wired for. And we're missing that. I mean, this is one of the reasons why people are so attracted to like, these videos of people who survive or videos of subsistence cultures in the-

• 42:17Speaker 02

  Naked and afraid.

• 42:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, all that stuff. There's a reason why we're attached, attached to those things. I think it's because that, those human reward systems are the strongest purveyors of happiness that we have currently available to us.

• 42:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, because we're not really wired to get happy from an Instagram video. It happens. Like we get happy scrolling.

• 42:36Speaker 00

  You may laugh a little, but it's diff, it's not the same happiness. It's a very temporary, it's not a body happiness. Like you shoot an elk at 60 yards and double lung it and watch it tip over. That kind of happiness is, there's nothing like that. There's nothing like that. That's a different thing. That's a survival thing. It's built into your DNA.

• 42:54Speaker 02

  But the point I was making was if you don't choose something, like choose to eat well, choose to train, choose to hunt, or choose to jujitsu, or choose just to get a degree in something really difficult. If you don't adopt those things, then like nature, reality will judge you and you're gonna get fat and old or have no meaning.

• 43:13Speaker 00

  You're also gonna get anxiety over almost anything. Almost anything and everything. The people that I know that freak out the most about things don't do anything difficult.

• 43:21Speaker 02

  Right.

• 43:22Speaker 00

  And they're the ones that are freaked out all the time about things. And I'm like, just walk it off. You're gonna be fine.

• 43:27Speaker 02

  One of the things that works really well for my wife is I'll tell her to do something creative when she's feeling anxiety. She'll like paint or draw or build something or do something. And that seems to be a good way to get like the creative juices flowing and just like complete something. Because I think one of the other problems is that we work, both of us work in the tech industry. And the job's never done. Like when you're building software, you're building things, like it almost never gets finished. It's always like, we're done with this thing, it's on to the next thing. So you don't get that sense of like, you know, I would go back to North Dakota every year and just farm and drive beet trucks for like two weeks. I'd take vacation to go and farm and drive

• 44:09Speaker 02

  beet trucks, like do harvest. Because I just liked it being done. And most times I donated the money to my church. So I'd just go home and drive trucks for two days, 12 hours a day, beet trucks where I'm following a loader, putting beets into the back of the truck and driving it there just because I was like, I did three fields this week. I feel awesome.

• 44:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, you worked.

• 44:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, I worked. I did physical labor and it's finished. That's the best part about is the work's done.

• 44:31Speaker 00

  Well, there's something about that stuff that's very appealing to people. That's why Yellowstone's appealing, right? These people, they, they have to run these cows or they're gonna not survive. I mean, that's why we like, you know, these people that live as trappers and they live in the fucking Siberian mountains.

• 44:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:50Speaker 00

  There's something about that stuff that's just built into us.

• 44:52Speaker 02

  I think we're probably more evolved for that than we are for what is going on today. So it's, it's satisfying the same circuitry we talked about before.

• 45:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:01Speaker 02

  Which is really what we're made for.

• 45:02Speaker 00

  Which is interesting because like you recognize this, yet you're in tech and you have an awesome application for phones.

• 45:10Speaker 02

  Yes. But the goal of it is to get people out.

• 45:13Speaker 00

  Right. That's true. Your, your tech is actually-

• 45:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:17Speaker 00

  Very good for people that are outside and it actually helps you.

• 45:20Speaker 02

  And because people have less time, they can scout at home or like when they really wanna get out into the woods or the, you know, September 13th and they fly in two days. It's like, or I can go scout this mountain digitally, find out places I wanna go and look at, and then mark them and then get on the app. But I always tell people when we're developing the app too, like, there's a bandwidth between the brain, the thumbs and a phone. And the amount of, I'm try, always trying to maximize that bandwidth. So the less time that I have to interact with an app in order to get more information, I've increased bandwidth.

• 45:51Speaker 00

  Right.

• 45:52Speaker 02

  So less buttons, less time, just, let's just get them the information they need and get them focused on the woods. Because if I had my way about it, they wouldn't pick the phone up once they're in the woods. It goes in their chest pocket or their rig or whatever, and then they're hunting. This is, the apps that I'm building, like we're just about to implement an awesome thermals feature that we've been building for a long time. And we can act now accurately map thermals. So when you're elk hunting and you see like a, you know, I'm waiting for these thermals to switch because where these elk are at, where these elk are at, the sun is hitting the side of this mountain, thermals are rising from the bottom, and the wind is coming from the top. So there's no way to get to these elk. So I need to wait for the thermal switch. So with this update we're gonna put out first

• 46:35Speaker 02

  on the web, you can pick a day, time of the year, you can go historical and look up historical weather. So you can say these elk were in this area. I dropped this pin. Now I'm gonna place this marker here and I wanna see how the thermals are acting in the area. This is what kills most hunters. It's not understanding how thermals work, especially whitetails and elk hunters. They don't know how the thermals work or they don't understand it, or they've never gone in the off season.

• 46:57Speaker 00

  Well, we're talking about with people that don't know what the fuck we're talking about. When the morning is happening, when it's cold and early in the morning, all the wind is going down the mountain. When it gets hot, then all of a sudden the ground heats up and then the wind starts going up the mountain. So when these animals- Are below you as you're coming down the mountain, they're gonna smell you immediately because all the smell is coming down. So you have to approach them from the bottom.

• 47:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:23Speaker 00

  And then when they're above you, if it starts getting hot out, you gotta get above them and you gotta get above them quick or they'll blow out.

• 47:30Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 47:30Speaker 00

  They'll blow out of there. They could smell you from forever away. I've seen animals smell me from a hundred yards away.

• 47:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, I've seen, I've seen good data on studies and a buddy of mine, he used to take, a friend of mine, he died in 2017, but he's a prolific whitetail photo, he took photos of whitetails. He had a deer pen and there was a mountain that was a three quarter mile away from his property in New York. And when those does came into heat, all of the bucks would gather at the base of this fence to smell the wind coming off of this mountain of these does that were three quarter mile away. So you think about that, like how well they can smell. And so, yeah, we're putting this thermal feature out, but the thermal feature, the reason I bring that up is because it's designed to be used at home. So you can map the thermals for an area. You can put in the temperature, you can put in the

• 48:17Speaker 02

  wind speed. And this engine beautifully maps exactly how the scent is going to move around on this mountainside.

• 48:23Speaker 00

  Can I ask you this? Does it vary depending on east or west slope? Because if it's east slope, it, the thermals will rise quicker, right?

• 48:30Speaker 02

  Yes. And, and yes, because the sun and the incidence of the sun. Cause what we had to build into this was an extremely high resolution topographic layer. We had to have this engine, but then we also had to put like canopy cover into this.

• 48:45Speaker 00

  Oh, wow.

• 48:45Speaker 02

  So it, it modulates differently based on the type of canopy that it's in, whether it's elk on the side of a hill or it's in, in the open air, or it's elk inside of a bunch of hemlocks or not hemlocks, but like aspens or something like that. It's gonna change how those thermals work. And I've been using it, um, just the other day, I've got these spots with whitetail, it's a little different because the bucks know where these thermals are as bucks get older. And we'll get off the whitetail deer, I apologize, but you got me hyped up on hunting.

• 49:13Speaker 00

  No, I love whitetail deer.

• 49:14Speaker 02

  Uh.

• 49:15Speaker 00

  It's number one most hunted big game animal in America.

• 49:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know, I just mean hunting writ large people. I doubt most people want to hear me talk about hunting.

• 49:21Speaker 00

  Who cares?

• 49:22Speaker 02

  Okay, cool.

• 49:22Speaker 00

  I think people like hearing people talk about things that are very fascinating to them. And I think people that don't understand hunting, especially people that think it's easy, you really don't understand what it is. They, you really don't understand how complicated it is. Particularly bow hunting, but even rifle hunting is easy. Good fucking luck. Rifle hunting is not easy. It's not, there's so much territory. You have no idea how big the mountains are. When you get out there, it is insanely hard.

• 49:50Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 49:50Speaker 00

  It's all hard. Yeah. Yeah. It's a little easier than archery in that you can be 300 yards away and accurately shoot. Okay. Still not easy. Not by, that's like saying that boxing is slightly easier than MMA. Boxing's not easy. Shut the fuck up.

• 50:05Speaker 02

  It's different.

• 50:06Speaker 00

  It's, they're hard things to do and especially to do them well. And to understand all these different, like when I first started hunting, when Steve Rinella took me, that's that mule deer that I got right there in 2012. That's when I first started hunting. Immediately I was like, oh my God, this is so much more difficult and there's so much more to learn than I ever understood. This layer upon layer, it's so complex.

• 50:28Speaker 02

  Especially to be good at it.

• 50:29Speaker 00

  And I'm not that good at it. I mean, I'm successful at it, but it's also a lot of it because I use really good guides and people help me and I'm, and I can handle pressure. So, and I'm in shape. So there's those things, but I'm learning things all the time. I'd say like, if I was a hunter, if it was like a jujitsu belt, I'd be like a, a high level purple belt, maybe a brown belt. But I'm not a black belt.

• 50:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:50Speaker 00

  I know the difference. There's like, when I hunt with Cam Haynes, I'm like, oh, okay.

• 50:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know anything.

• 50:55Speaker 00

  He's a six degree black belt. He, he, he shows me things all, every time. I've known that guy for 12 fucking years. And every time we hunt together, he shows me something new. And I learned something new, some new approach, some new way to handle a situation. This is what's going on. They're gonna do this. This is why they're gonna do this. You gotta know that. We gotta get ahead of them.

• 51:13Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 51:13Speaker 00

  Like there's things he knows that I, I, I don't know. And I, I, you only learn with time and with studying and when it becomes the primary focus of your life. And for me, it takes over my life around June. Around June, it just takes over my mind.

• 51:27Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 51:28Speaker 00

  I do other things, but I'm thinking about September.

• 51:30Speaker 02

  Same thing. I was, when I was driving yesterday, I was telling my family, I'm like, I'm watching the leaves change. All I can think about is I want to be in those trees right now. It's like, it's, it's, there's something about, well, anyway, to finish the point on the thermals, I marked some of, using this model, I marked some of my best whitetail hunting spots in the mountains. And then I, I mapped the thermals and looked at the thermals. And it was, it became apparent why deer were using these routes because an old wise whitetail buck knows, he's getting thermals from like 320 degrees are funneling into this one spot based on the predominant wind for the area, all these things that the app can tell you. And it's like, oh, that's why he's always been in this spot because he knows the whole mountain before he ever steps a foot on it. He knows, he knows if there's a hot doe on that mountain. He knows if there's hunters on that mountain.

• 52:13Speaker 02

  He knows if there's anything on that mountain. He can smell it. And it really has opened my eyes. Like I can't wait to get this feature out so people can see it. But the goal to put a bow on this is to get people out and experiencing it because, uh, I think it's a great mechanism for like coming of age for young kids. Like, hey, you know, you're, you're 14 or 15 or whatever. I'm gonna treat you like a man from today. We're gonna go out and kill an animal and eat it together and get a bunch of guys together. For men, I think. It works for women as well, but I'm saying particularly for young men, we've kind of lost coming of age, um, rights. Or we've kind of like, you know, in Native American tribes you study or Viking or all of these other, they had a time and place where it's like, now you're a man, I'm gonna treat you like a man, no more excuses.

• 52:57Speaker 00

  Right.

• 52:58Speaker 02

  And we've kind of put that off. And we kind of spoke about this last time, but it's something that I think we desperately need for young men because, and for adults even who haven't really chosen to start acting like men. And I can say I act like a child all the time. So I'm not a perfect dude, but, um, the military was that for me. So mine got kind of outsourced. Um, but it's, I think it leads to a lot of problems that we have in society today, like things my grandpa used to bitch at me about when I was a kid.

• 53:26Speaker 00

  100%. There's a lot of people who are never truly tested. And they live their life with this just cloud of uncertainty constantly hanging over them. And this, not this lack of understanding of their capabilities and how they can expand those capabilities. That's the thing about being tested is that you realize like, oh, I fell short. I'm, I suck at this. This is not my thing. I gotta learn how to do it. And then you learn and then you realize, oh, I can expand my potential in all things. I learned it from martial arts. That's what, that's what happened with me when I was young. I got into martial arts when I was 15, like really heavily. And then it became my whole focus and it changed my whole, the whole way I approached life. I realized like that pressure and big

• 54:11Speaker 00

  moments and things that are difficult are good for you. They're blessings.

• 54:15Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 54:15Speaker 00

  And you, you learn about yourself from those things.

• 54:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. I think I talked about this with Andy, but I think it was Plato, um, was not only known for his great thinking, but known for his excessively good wrestling ability.

• 54:28Speaker 00

  Really?

• 54:29Speaker 02

  Plato, uh, means broad or broad shoulders. That's what his name meant. Um, and he said it's one of the worst things in life to go through life and not understand the full potential of the human body. Like to not push yourself physically to a place where A, you understand the actual capability of your body to make it through a situation. Um, and then B, to understand what type of person you regress to when the chips are down, which was another thing the military gave me. It wasn't like something I had this profundity and I went out and searched for it. It's like I'm in a SERE course where I'm being pursued by, you know, operators. And, you know, cause there's, there's a regular SERE courses in the military and then there's graduate level SERE courses. And that was kind of.

• 55:11Speaker 00

  What is a SERE course? How does?

• 55:12Speaker 02

  Survive, evade, resist, escape.

• 55:14Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 55:15Speaker 02

  So in the initial one, which is kind of more for pilots and aircraft crew members, they teach you how to survive in the wild, how to evade, capture, like if you're being pursued. And then if you're caught, how to resist torture, enhanced interrogation methods, that type of thing. And then how to escape. So you get kind of like a watered down version that a lot of people go to, but then this high risk officer pipeline, or, um, if you're in JSOC and other organizations, they put you through like a real deal Holyfield one. The one I went to was like three weeks and they teach you picking handcuffs, how to escape from a trunk, how to escape from a house, how to improvise, like make firearms,

• 55:55Speaker 02

  shotguns, how to, uh, you know, dress a squirrel and eat it. But they put you through like, like a week, I think it was actually six weeks, maybe, not four weeks, but you do two weeks of training where it's like, you just sit in a place and you're picking handcuffs. You sit in a place and you're learning how to get out of a trunk. You sit in a place and you learn how to like conduct polish on what you're wearing. So if you have to, if you're spotted by a policeman and you need to change how you look, how do you polish yourself? So you change your appearance. So if they've got an APB out for a guy in a gray shirt and a black pants, how do you change that quickly? Um, then after they teach you all of that stuff, they throw you into an operational scenario where you're just being pursued by a bunch of people who do this for a living. And, um, you know, my evasion

• 56:37Speaker 02

  was like, I think like 12 or 13 miles through the Appalachian Mountains. And you're sleeping on the ground at night. And I actually had a crazy, it's the only thing that ever happened to me. So I wasn't in evasion. People are gonna make fun of me for this story, but it's fine. I was in the Appalachians and I was like on day two or three or maybe four or something like that and I'd eaten very little before I left the town that I was in to get up on the and they teach you like how not to just walk a trail. You basically serpentine snake a trail and so you know where the trail is, you can still orient yourself, but you're not following the trail because that's going to make you easily caught. So you're running and when they started

• 57:21Speaker 02

  the the operational scenario, you're put in a trunk of a car with a painting outfit on, you're handcuffed and you're zip tied. So you have to first defeat all of those restraints. So you're learning that you learned how to pick the cuffs, you learned how to get out of duct tape or or these other things. And then you learn how to pop the trunk from the inside whenever it's not built to be popped from the inside. Now they have all of those latches that you can pull and just jump out, but they'll put you in like an older vehicle. And then you have to evade. So now you're running from people who are chasing you and the local authorities know that you're part of this course and they're also if they see you, they'll also pursue you. So you quickly learn how to change what you're wearing, whether that's going to like a Walmart donation point and

• 58:04Speaker 02

  reaching in and grabbing clothes or, you know, at one point in the course, I just put my whole bottom half in a mud puddle. So my white outfit now looked like I had black jeans on in the dark. So you learn all these like, you know, little things to do. And then you do the evasion part. Well, during like day three of the evasion part, and I still don't know if this is a dream, or this happened, I'm pretty sure it happened. I'm 80% sure it happened. But I hadn't eaten for a few days. And I thought I ran into hikers on the Appalachian Trail. So I came to an area and there were these people sitting on a log. And again, I don't know if this was a dream. I don't know if this is because I hadn't eaten for days or because I was being tracked or I was under a lot of pressure. But I had like a quick conversation with them and they're like, well, we're gonna go

• 58:47Speaker 02

  to sleep. And I was like, okay, like, and they had along the trail, they had these like little open faced cabins. And so I saw them go into this open faced cabin and and go to sleep. And then I started a fire and slept on the ground next to the fire. And I just told them, oh, I'm just, you know, they give you a cover. So you can just tell people what your cover is while you're in there when you enter, when you interact with people. And so I did all that. I started a fire. I'm sleeping by this campfire. I wake up in the morning and it was a big dirt area. So I wake up in the morning and I looked over there like three hours later. This was like 2am when I got there and it's like 5 or 5:30 now. And I look up and I'm like, oh, they're gone already. Well,

• 59:32Speaker 02

  that's weird. So like I start the fire again, quickly warm myself up to keep evading. And then I looked at the ground, there were no footprints anywhere. So I was like, wait, did I see people here last night or not? Like, did this happen or not? And I'm like freaking out. I'm like, I'm not seeing like, there should have been dirt. Like, I thought they were sitting on a log. There's no log here. So when I was debriefing after the course, I told the you do a debrief with like a with a doctor who's monitoring everyone because at one point you're being slapped around or you're locked in these cages, or you're locked in like at one point, the government detention part, I'm locked in a cement block, like you're in a cement room where you can't stand up, you can't sit down. It's too thin for you to like get on the ground. And they're playing this horrible freaking music

• 1:00:15Speaker 02

  at the top behind your head. It's like violins that make no sense. And you're in there for like eight hours. And so you really start getting like, have you ever done like a like a dunk tank or like a tank where it's dark?

• 1:00:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, sensory deprivation.

• 1:00:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, so this is what this is. It's sensory deprivation. You can't lay down, you can't stand up, you can't get comfortable because it's only like five and a half feet tall. It's too thin for you to lay on the ground. They're playing this music in the back of your head. And this is after you've been evading. So you've been captured. So you're dehydrated, you haven't eaten. And I was like seeing worms everywhere. And I was like, I kept telling myself, you're hallucinating. Like, I was seeing like all these snakes inside of there, like all this awful shit is happening to you. And so I talked to the doc afterwards. He's like, oh, no, I've heard this story like 15 times.

• 1:00:59Speaker 00

  Did he hear the story of people meeting people that weren't there?

• 1:01:02Speaker 02

  People meeting people that weren't there or having an experience or being in a place because they do have you with a GPS sensor and like a in a fanny pack. So that if you get lost or you get turned up or hit by a car or something like that, they know where you are. But they don't use that to chase you or they're not supposed to. And so he is like, yeah, I had to brief guys who thought they're in like different parts of the city or they were thought they were in a different area altogether. Or they get lost and turned around, they're dehydrated. So like when you're not eating for a while, you've got the stress of being chased by people who do this for a living. You haven't had any water, no reliable meals, you're stressed out and you've been running for three or four days. Like your mind starts doing things to you. So I still to this day don't know if A,

• 1:01:45Speaker 02

  that was a dream, B, I hallucinated those people, or C, they were there and just like the dirt was gone in the morning.

• 1:01:50Speaker 00

  Guys, you know, I'm into ketones and I rock with ketone IQ. But here's something that blew my mind. Throughout history, you see all these civilizations talking about fasting and how good it can be for your body and brain. I honestly feel sharper when I do it. That's because when you fast, your body starts making its backup fuel, ketones. They burn clean, last long, feel amazing, and they help you with focus and mental clarity. But fasting is really hard. So what I need is stay sharp. I take ketone IQ. It delivers the same super fuel your body naturally makes when fasting right to your brain. They help me drop in a laser like focus when I want to stay locked in and think clearly. And that's the beauty of it. You get the benefits of ketones

• 1:02:33Speaker 00

  without having to fast. Finally, you can pick it up at CVS nationwide and your first shot of ketone IQ is always free. So head to your local CVS and try one for yourself or go to ketone.com/rogan for 30% off your subscription order. But maybe they're interdimensional travelers.

• 1:02:52Speaker 02

  Maybe they're interdimensional. It's possible.

• 1:02:54Speaker 00

  If you were an interdimensional traveler, why do you have to look like an alien? You know?

• 1:02:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:58Speaker 00

  If you've got the ability to come here from another dimension, I think you probably have the ability to look like Elon Musk.

• 1:03:06Speaker 02

  I think it's highly likely that Elon Musk is an interdimensional traveler, but

• 1:03:10Speaker 00

  Something along those lines.

• 1:03:11Speaker 02

  He's something.

• 1:03:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's but that's my thought about aliens in general. Like, I think if they were amongst us, there's no way we would ever know.

• 1:03:20Speaker 02

  If they have the technology to do the things that we think that they're doing, we are woefully inept to try to comprehend or understand what it is they're doing or who they are or what they're doing.

• 1:03:29Speaker 00

  Right. And why wouldn't they be able to imitate us? We're simple. And there's also so many different models of us to choose from. There's so many different versions of us that you could draw from and create a compilation and, you know, make an artificial person or an image of a person or just affect someone's visual cortex to the point where they don't see you for what you really look like.

• 1:03:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:03:51Speaker 00

  That seems like simple compared to traveling interdimensionally or traveling interstellar.

• 1:03:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:57Speaker 00

  If they really do have these gravity drives that can instantaneously transport you from one galaxy to another. I think they could probably pretend they're a person.

• 1:04:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, we can screw with our own perception all the time. And then people explain it to you and you're like, holy crap, I didn't even realize that. The two faces looking together with the vase. There's a there's one on the line where it's like, it's a block with like a black bar in the middle.

• 1:04:21Speaker 00

  Uh huh. Yeah, we did that the other day.

• 1:04:23Speaker 02

  Oh, okay. Well, I won't retell the story.

• 1:04:25Speaker 00

  Oh, we've done it twice. It's incredible. What is that called again? Corn sweet? Yeah.

• 1:04:30Speaker 02

  Corn sweet. So you could your perception can be messed with. And if you think

• 1:04:34Speaker 00

  That one's nuts.

• 1:04:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, if you think you're in control of your faculties, you rest on a limbic system and a central nervous system that's been around for a long time. And it's very patterned the way that it metabolizes reality and our ability to mess with that is

• 1:04:49Speaker 00

  I wonder what evolutionary advantage, if any, there is in being able to hallucinate when you're tired.

• 1:04:56Speaker 02

  I think there's probably something to do with, well, I'm not an expert on this, but I know that dreaming is particularly important when it comes to that stage of sleep cycle is where you store memories. So one of the things that happens when you're not sleeping for a long time is your memories are one of the first things to go. Because you need those stages of sleep in order to remember things.

• 1:05:20Speaker 00

  Well, that makes sense because when I'm asleep, my memory sucks.

• 1:05:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, I think dreams have tremendous amount of function. I myself am a huge belief. It's probably one of the things I believe in most is dreams. And this is going to sound crazy coming from somebody who makes this living doing engineering. But I do think that the collective subconscious and the individual unconscious, we're resting on millions of years of learned lessons that we can't possibly be born with. And so they pop up out of this collective subconscious. Like, you see a person, you just get the ick. You're like, I don't know what I like this guy. I don't like this guy.

• 1:05:59Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:06:00Speaker 02

  That lessons probably happened to your ancestors 10 million times. And something is popping out of that substrate that you don't have full access to and is telling you that because it's a heuristic that has been adopted over a million years of evolution or 300,000 years or whatever you think humans have been around for. That story's been told a million times. And I think dreams, it doesn't make sense to me. And again, I'm not the expert on this, but it's stuff that I think about all the time. Actually, I was back in the day, I was trying to impress my now wife. And she's a mathematician. And she, you know, went to Johns Hopkins, super smart, like just outside of the

• 1:06:40Speaker 02

  normal distribution of people, especially, you know, a woman who's really into mathematics is just not normal. Or it's not, you know, there's far more many men. I'm gonna get shit on for this. I meet way more men mathematicians than I do with women. And I'm sorry, I don't control the fabric of reality, but it seems to be the case. I'm just observing things, observing patterns. Anyway, she's a mathematician.

• 1:07:02Speaker 00

  You covering all your bases.

• 1:07:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, dude, doing your podcast the first time, so much hate.

• 1:07:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, you gotta stay out of the comments.

• 1:07:11Speaker 02

  I don't know. I don't go to the I didn't read your comments.

• 1:07:13Speaker 00

  Where are you getting the hate?

• 1:07:14Speaker 02

  DMs.

• 1:07:14Speaker 00

  Oh, well, stay out of the DMs.

• 1:07:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I will from now on.

• 1:07:17Speaker 00

  Close those off anyway.

• 1:07:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. But, oh, yes. So dreams.

• 1:07:27Speaker 02

  I will have a problem in my life. And so the reason I was talking about impressing my wife. She was into chaos theory and she's reading all these books on chaos theory. And so I went on YouTube to watch some videos about chaos theory. And I actually, this is an origin story for me of types of a type. I actually saw a Jordan Peterson video. But it was not about chaos theory, it was about chaos and order. Like it was like, you know, it was one of those, but I didn't know. So I clicked the video and this is before he blew up. This was like, um, you know, when he was just posting stuff on YouTube. So I watched this video and my goal of watching the video was to get into understanding chaos theory. But what I ended up doing was getting into Carl Jung. Cause I watched one of these first videos.

• 1:08:12Speaker 02

  So I have a very addictive personality. So I read it, started reading every Carl Jung book I could. Like the everything about the collective unconscious, uh, the red books, everything that he wrote. And, and, and really got into, to dreams. And this might be a self fulfilling prophecy. It doesn't matter because it's particularly useful to me. But I'll have dreams where, and I used to, you know, have a psychologist that I talked to when I was in a, a kind of a depressive state years ago. And he was, I made sure to hire one who was a union. So I would document my dreams and say, here's what I had a dream about. And, um, it just became astonishing to me that my dreams were trying to tell me things.

• 1:08:55Speaker 02

  And from an evolutionary standpoint, it made sense to me that your body wouldn't just present you fuzz like a TV screen. That dreams would have an evolutionary function where you're able to draw on the lessons of the past. And you could call that the collective unconscious. You could call that the Holy Spirit of God. You could call that transcendent reality. It doesn't matter, but there seems to be something to dreams. I'm convinced of it because I still document my dreams to this day. And when things are happening in my life, the dream will be telling me like, here's where you're at. This is what you need to do. And then we watch these dreams manifested in reality through a particularly good book or a particularly good movie.

• 1:09:35Speaker 02

  And it's, it's tugging on that same string where we're watching something and people have done this better than me. But you're watching something and you're not understanding what you're watching, but you know that you love it. And you want to keep watching it. And it's because your unconscious is telling you, there's a lesson here for you. And I'm going to make you keep watching this until you understand what the lesson is. And the example I always give people is, let me tell you a story. And the story is about a guy who's innocent, but he's sentenced to death. And, um, he had a collection of disciples that followed him around. And he taught them beautiful things about the world and the fabric of reality and gave them appreciation for life. He, he, he died and was reborn or raised from the dead.

• 1:10:20Speaker 02

  Um, but also passed through to this world, um, through a woman's womb. And, uh, he's a fisher of men. So I'll tell people that story and I'll be like, what story am I telling you? Like, well, you're telling me the story of Christ. I was like, no, I'm telling you the Shawshank Redemption. It's the greatest movie of all time per, you know, IMDb, per Rotten Tomatoes. It's a perfect movie. I'm not saying Stephen King wrote that book to retell the Christ story. What I'm saying is, is that story is a very base story. A story of the complete, perfect man who's innocent of a crime. He's tried and killed for that crime, but reborn. And that's because in the collective unconscious and in our lives, we need to undergo those same things.

• 1:11:02Speaker 02

  Like I talked about before, you have to force nature and reality onto you and adapt to them and suffer a little death. Like even an ego death, like you had a system, the system failed. Now it's time for you to recalibrate that system and then be reborn into the world. And so I think all of those things are tightly coupled when it comes to dreams, when it comes to media that we consume, stories that hit with us. We don't understand why. And, and great art is art that's made and the, and the artist doesn't even know the story that he's telling. He just is, is just has a compulsion to tell this story. And so they write it down and we don't know, like Stephen King is a great author. I love consuming his, his, his stuff.

• 1:11:44Speaker 02

  But he's more of a vessel to the unconscious than he is somebody who just thinks up great stories.

• 1:11:50Speaker 00

  Well, he wrote a lot of his stuff, basically unconscious. You know, some of his great works.

• 1:11:55Speaker 02

  What do you mean by that?

• 1:11:55Speaker 00

  Well, he doesn't even remember writing Cujo.

• 1:11:59Speaker 02

  Great movie.

• 1:12:00Speaker 00

  Yeah. Great, great book.

• 1:12:01Speaker 02

  I didn't read the book.

• 1:12:02Speaker 00

  The book is fantastic.

• 1:12:03Speaker 02

  I didn't read the book.

• 1:12:03Speaker 00

  Well, he was heavily drinking and doing drugs.

• 1:12:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:12:08Speaker 00

  Back in those days.

• 1:12:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:12:09Speaker 00

  And he would just get blacked out and write these books. And I think it was Carrie too, right?

• 1:12:16Speaker 02

  I'm not sure.

• 1:12:17Speaker 00

  Well, he's got a, a bunch of his books where, you know, some of the best ones where he was just obliterated when he wrote them.

• 1:12:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:12:26Speaker 00

  And that was the way.

• 1:12:27Speaker 02

  He's tapping into, he's tapping into that.

• 1:12:29Speaker 00

  Get away from himself, get out of his own way and tap into that thing. Cause that's one of the things that creative people always talk about is getting out of your own way.

• 1:12:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:12:37Speaker 00

  And, you know, finding that, that zone.

• 1:12:42Speaker 02

  Heaven drunk or super cocaine induced haze.

• 1:12:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:12:45Speaker 02

  Have you ever seen the movie Maximum Overdrive?

• 1:12:47Speaker 00

  No memory of writing the book at all. Yeah, I did.

• 1:12:49Speaker 02

  Oh, great book.

• 1:12:50Speaker 00

  King wrote it between 81 and 85 while deeply dependent on alcohol and cocaine. One of the best books. Uh, he also wrote books like The Shining, Pet Sematary and the Tommyknockers during that era while regularly consuming alcohol, cocaine, Valium, Xanax, marijuana, and even mouthwash. He's openly shared in his, on writing, yeah, it's in the book. Um, he often had to stuff cotton swabs in his nose to stop cocaine induced nosebleeds from dripping onto his typewriter. Fuck yeah. Meanwhile, some of his best stuff.

• 1:13:20Speaker 02

  Diving into unconsciousness and then like a hero, coming back with something, a story.

• 1:13:26Speaker 01

  Have you ever heard of the hypnagogic state?

• 1:13:29Speaker 00

  Yes, I have, but I don't remember what that term is.

• 1:13:31Speaker 01

  I have a perplexity describing Salvador Dali's use of it. Cause I've found a few people that did it, but I was getting really into dreams too. And was having some weird sleep deprived visions. And I found that this is a thing that smart people, I guess, tapped into.

• 1:13:47Speaker 00

  Being half awake and sleep deprived. Well, I told you about the news radio writers. I've told you that before. Yeah. And so the, the writers on news radio, they didn't do drugs, but they would stay awake. So they'd stay awake to like three o'clock in the morning and then start writing the scripts.

• 1:14:02Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:14:03Speaker 00

  Yeah. And everybody was just like delirious and they would write till like six, seven in the morning. We would show up to do the table read and these guys were still awake from the night before. So they'd written and hilarious shit because they were just like, it's like they were high, but they weren't high. And they would write these ridiculous absurd scenarios and really hilarious lines. And they were doing, they were purposely doing it under sleep deprivation to induce that state.

• 1:14:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. And that, that I think is a, you know, it's going to sound paradoxical to say it, but that's a heroic action, right? Like going into, going into the unconscious, a place where you're either depriving yourself, hurting yourself, but you're, you're, you're diving into the mud, the, the, the, the water.

• 1:14:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:14:50Speaker 02

  And you're pulling out something great. Like it goes to what you said about fishing, like Christ said, I'll make you fishers of men. And that means I'm going to dive into the water to the abyss. I'm going to pull out something of value and everyone gets to eat and be happy. And that's the, that's the hero story par excellence is, um, people going into unsavory conditions, making sense of an unknowable environment. Recalibrating themselves and then returning. That's always the story in the book, right? The hero gets defeated in the beginning. Um, he has to go through some type of transformational period, which often like Star Wars, he's in the swamp or Thor Ragnarok. He goes to this upside down world where he has to fight the Hulk, who's his friend. Or, um, any of these movies, they have that. And then there's the return of the king where he sets order and makes everything right.

• 1:15:35Speaker 02

  And, uh, dreams, I just, it's one of the most valuable things to me. And the, one of the things that kind of sucks about it is, is, and Jung talks about this is once you start to really learn and live. Like you try to become a better version of yourself, you'll actually end up dreaming less. But when you do dream, the dream will be more, um, dense. And but the layers of the dream get more um. The dream is never just to solve one problem. It's usually it's many problems stacked on top of themselves.

• 1:16:07Speaker 00

  So say that again, when you learn more about yourself?

• 1:16:09Speaker 02

  When you start listening to the dreams and you start living like.

• 1:16:12Speaker 00

  You dream less.

• 1:16:13Speaker 02

  Well, not not necessarily. The the better lesson is if you start listening to your dreams and you start orienting yourself based on the feedback that you're getting from the collective unconscious or the word of God or the voice of God. And you start setting your life in order and you start acting like a better person, the need for dreams is not as profound.

• 1:16:32Speaker 00

  Well, how does he make this determination? Does he do? Is he running a study? Like, how many people is he looking at? Is he dealing with his own personal experiences?

• 1:16:40Speaker 02

  So I read this and I think it's called um.

• 1:16:43Speaker 00

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• 1:18:47Speaker 02

  Uh, I think this was in the red book, but I'm not sure. Or it might be, I can't remember which, might be man and his symbols. It doesn't matter. But what what he's basically saying is the dreams are there to provide you input and corrective measures and to let you know the the archetype that you're acting out. And then, once you start setting yourself in order, um, a good marker is you're no longer dreaming. In other words, you're doing the right thing now. So your dreams don't now have to keep giving you this feedback.

• 1:19:16Speaker 00

  Huh.

• 1:19:16Speaker 02

  Um, Jamie can pressure test me because I might be wrong and I don't want to say something wrong on this podcast of all.

• 1:19:21Speaker 00

  It's also, it's like.

• 1:19:22Speaker 01

  This statement, this is taken from something. He said it's almost like that, but it's.

• 1:19:26Speaker 00

  Dreams balance the conscious mind. If your waking mind is overly rigid, hyper rational or arrogant, the dream will supply emotional, vulnerable or contradictory imagery to restore equilibrium. Interesting. Self portrayal of the psyche. Jung saw that a dream was a spontaneous self betrayal in symbolic form and of the actual situation in the unconscious. They show you where you truly stand psychologically without the ego's filters.

• 1:19:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, dreams drive towards wholeness and self-realization. So what I got from Jung was the more you start to become more of a whole person and you engage in the self-realization, the less utility the dreams will have, and therefore you'll have less of them. So in other words, if you're doing well by yourself.

• 1:20:13Speaker 00

  I understand this, but I don't understand how you'd be able to study this unless it's all completely anecdotal from an individual. Because you're one person and your thought process, especially as a psychologist and a psychoanalyst is going to be very different than most people. So like to say that, it's gotta be people that always dream. Like, there's people that have very vivid, lucid dreams. And they're they're able to cultivate those.

• 1:20:37Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I would also say Jung falls out of the distribution of today, what most people engage in is cognitive behavioral therapy or CBT. Is not what Jung was doing. Like Jung was far more radical and I wouldn't say the most pre-reviewed guy in the world. Um, so it just it it and it could be like anything else in life, a heuristic that doesn't necessarily the the right way. And the reason I say that is because heuristic is something that's not the right way to do something, but it works for you. It's the right way to do things for you. Um, and it just might be a useful heuristic to me, but it certainly. Um, I can think of just, you know, a dream even I had last week where I wrote it down and went back to it the next day. Because I woke up at like four in the morning. I wrote it all down.

• 1:21:19Speaker 02

  Woke up the next day and looked at it and it was like smacking me in the face, like what the dream was telling me.

• 1:21:25Speaker 00

  What was that?

• 1:21:27Speaker 01

  Is it personal?

• 1:21:28Speaker 02

  Uh, I mean, I'll, I can talk at it at a high general level, but it is personal.

• 1:21:33Speaker 02

  Uh, uh, problems with legal, with some legal stuff. And um, uh, you know, I'm almost through it, but uh, it's taken a toll on me for about a couple of years. And we got some resolution that was some of what I wanted to see and some of what I didn't want to see. And that night I went to bed pretty angry and then I had a dream where I was on a train. And there were these people that were like rendezvous people all over the train. And they were like, you know, biker looking guys, kind of rough. And uh, they were making fun of me or they were telling me I wasn't shit. And then some of them would challenge me to things. And then in the dream, I met a woman and I was like, hey, I really don't know what's going on in this dream, like,

• 1:22:16Speaker 02

  or I'm not in this dream in this in this place. Like, can you help me out? And she was like, well, you kind of have to learn what's going on here on your own, like. And so at one point, a bunch of gunshots came from the outside of the train. And I grabbed her, like, as the guns were shooting, and I put myself in between her and the gunshots where they were coming from. And then she said, when we got up and like the guns stopped firing, she's like, okay, I can help you out some here. Um, and she started telling me things about this, this, this train world that I was in. And then a guy came and challenged me, whose name was also Bill, but he looked like old, like an old bearded guy, like an old like biker beard guy. And uh, we started fighting and I put him in Americana.

• 1:23:00Speaker 02

  And which, you know, anybody who knows how to fight shouldn't succumb to an Americana.

• 1:23:04Speaker 00

  What are you talking about?

• 1:23:06Speaker 02

  Well, I'm saying like, uh, you know, if I'm fighting like a blue belt and I try to hit him with a, you know, a basic jiu-jitsu move, he's gonna fuck my world up.

• 1:23:13Speaker 00

  Oh, I don't know about that.

• 1:23:15Speaker 02

  Well, Andy would, guys that Gordon would or.

• 1:23:18Speaker 00

  Maybe a high level black belt.

• 1:23:20Speaker 02

  Well, I don't know. It just seems.

• 1:23:22Speaker 00

  People get caught in Americana's all the time.

• 1:23:24Speaker 02

  Maybe. I don't, you know more of this than I do, but I put him in an Americana and I ended up, not that this is possible, but I ended up compound fracturing his elbow.

• 1:23:33Speaker 00

  That happens all the time.

• 1:23:34Speaker 02

  And um, he didn't quit. And the woman told me as I was fighting, she's like, not only does he have to say uncle, you have to accept that he is submitted before it's over. And so he was like, I'm not done. And I was like, oh, my God. So we keep rolling. And I, he tackles me and I get into a guard and I, and I put him in an arm bar and I break his arm with an arm bar, his other arm. And then he's like, okay, I submit. And then she's like, now tell him you accept his submission. And so I was like, I accept your submission. And then, and then later in the dream, like I get off this train.

• 1:24:09Speaker 00

  This is a crazy fucking.

• 1:24:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I wrote it all down. I can show you it on my phone when we get out of here because I woke up at 4:00 AM and wrote it all down. And then I got out of the dream and I ran into my wife. My wife said, um, I'm going to get on the train as well. And I I feel like I need to um, go and test myself or get into the world. And I was like, babe, you don't, like, don't do that. Don't get on the train. Like, it's not a good place to be. It's it's horrible. Don't do it. And she's like, oh, I feel like I need to do it. And then I woke up. So the dream, like, I immediately knew just from like the self-study and and reading these things. The train was a framework for the legal system. In other words, there are these, there are these people that speak terms you don't understand.

• 1:24:53Speaker 02

  Um, it's got a, it's got its own um, direction and inertia and gravity. And you don't control where the train goes, just like you don't control where a courtroom or a judge or the justice system goes. You are subject to everything that's happening in that train and they're gonna say and do things um, that um. That makes sense to you and that you're gonna need someone else and like it's set up there a compensatory, a compensatory function for men is usually an anima character. And anima relation is, you know, you, I've heard you talk about this and what you're describing is anima integration, but essentially men need to first become men. And once men become men, then they can start integrating anima.

• 1:25:35Speaker 02

  And what, what, a way, easy way to say this is a grandfather or a, a man needs to grow up and become hard, he needs to be disagreeable, he needs to fight, he needs to learn how to push himself and test himself and instill these masculine features into him. Once he's done that, then he can be the old grandfather that's got like a granddaughter on his lap, um, or, or he's emotional with the grandchild, or he's starting to learn really more about his wife, but he first needs to learn himself. So he has to harden his masculine, um, his, his, um, his masculine features before he integrates anima features. But anima features in movies, um, or in books or in all of these things, it's usually a character, like if you watch the movie Wolverine, um, or not Wolverine, if you watch the Logan

• 1:26:20Speaker 02

  movie, he's got a young version of himself who's a woman who has no ability to speak. So she lacks logos, she lacks some, an ability to express herself in the world. And as she starts to integrate and get closer to, uh, to Logan, um, who's this masculine character, she finally adopts logos and starts to speak towards the end of the movie and even starts speaking English. And so, and because they're the same person, she's a clone of him, you, Jung would say that's the anima part of Logan that he needs to integrate before he can defeat the bad guy in the end of the movie. So this anima character on this train who is, is, you know, a particularly good lawyer or someone who understands this world that I don't understand, um, and I need to show

• 1:27:04Speaker 02

  them something like protecting her from the gunfire before she starts telling me about this world and how it works. In other words, I have to, I have to use that compensatory relating function in order to understand this train that I'm on that I've got really no control over. And that the stakes of this fight were far bigger than I ever thought they were. And that the person that I'm fighting, which is not the person I'm fighting in court or not the person that I'm fighting in life, was actually me. And there's a part of me that I was experiencing that dream who's not willing to give the fight up. He will fight until his, he's gotten Americana, until he's got a broken arm, until he's got ankle lock and he can't walk anymore. My dream was warning me about taking this to the end.

• 1:27:47Speaker 02

  And if you take this to the end, it, it could be bad or it could be good. We don't know.

• 1:27:52Speaker 00

  Well, it can consume your life.

• 1:27:53Speaker 02

  It could consume me.

• 1:27:54Speaker 00

  More importantly.

• 1:27:55Speaker 02

  Yes, and consume millions of dollars and consume everything else. And so my dream was readying me and saying, look, you're at a threshold where you have to, where you have to open yourself up to parts and really learn the justice system and really learn these things, um, or you're not gonna be ready for the fight. And the fight's not against the other guy, the fight's actually about your, against yourself. Um, and, and so that, that, that, that's the sense, that's the nexus of the dream. The dream's not telling me about the future, it's telling me where I am at this point in time. So it's, it's very useful to me, these things. Um, and we see them reflected in media, like I said, um, in that Logan movie I talked about, he actually fights himself and that himself that he fights, the clone, have you seen the movie?

• 1:28:37Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:28:38Speaker 02

  He's got no logos, he can't speak. And he, and this daughter or this clone of him has no logos and he cannot speak. And they're moving from south of the border, um, which is this like chaotic desert wasteland up into North Dakota, actually, in the movie, which is this like Garden of Eden type of place. And it's there, it's this like buddy travel story across this place where he has to integrate these parts of himself in order to finally defeat his shadow self, which is a Jungian thing, which is this other Wolverine with no ability to speak, who's this animalistic version of himself. And only then, in the end of the movie, he's, you know, it's really the story of Moses, but in the end of the movie, he's literally hung on a tree and killed by his own shadow self.

• 1:29:20Speaker 02

  And then only then can this new version of him, this animate integrated version of him, um, go north into Canada and live freely. So it's, it's one of the highest grossing Marvel movies of all time. I think it made up over a billion dollars, but it's telling a very old story and that old story that it's telling is an ascent of a mountain like Moses to go up and get the new law, but it's also an ascent of the mountain to, that, that will ultimately lead to your crucifixion, but it will save everyone else that you love. It's like, you know, the, the Jews in the wasteland. Um, uh, it's this death and rebirth story that, um, it speaks to a very deep level in people. And even as engineering minded as I am and as scientifically minded as I am, I can't

• 1:30:04Speaker 02

  dispense with something when it's as useful as it is. Um, there's just something there that keeps scratching at me and I can't let it go. And it's part of my addictive personality. Like I said, I've consumed like Eric Neumann and Carl Jung and Freud and Adler and all of these great authors who wrote about all of this, the perseverance of the human soul under extraordinary circumstances. Um, you can't dispatch with these things because it got these people to where we are today and there seems to be some truth there, so.

• 1:30:35Speaker 00

  Well, it's undefinable and it's very strange. Whatever the dream state is, it's, there's something going on there that's very odd, very, very odd. And, um, I, I don't dismiss it. I don't understand it, I don't dismiss it, but I'm very wary of people who are clearly defining it, like mapping the territory.

• 1:30:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:30:56Speaker 00

  I don't, I don't, I don't know if you have the ability to do that. And I don't, uh, you know, I think people want to define things that are undefinable because it gives them comfort.

• 1:31:05Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 1:31:06Speaker 00

  But there's a structure to things that, you know, they can, they can say, oh, I get it now. I don't know if you're ever gonna get it.

• 1:31:12Speaker 02

  I think it's the same thing that you get when you hear from people. When I was 16 is the only time I've ever done drugs in my whole entire life and I can now say this, that I'm out of the military.

• 1:31:20Speaker 00

  That's outrageous.

• 1:31:21Speaker 02

  I've never done anything, but when I was a child, um.

• 1:31:24Speaker 00

  Meanwhile, you're doing drugs right now?

• 1:31:26Speaker 02

  Right, nicotine. When I was a child, um, some friends, some friends gave me mushrooms when I was like 16. And it was a crazy experience. Um, and, uh, it, it also, I won't tell the story because we've already done this once, but it also led me to an updating of my system and an understanding of who I am.

• 1:31:47Speaker 00

  How come you never did it again?

• 1:31:48Speaker 02

  I was in the military.

• 1:31:50Speaker 00

  How come you don't do it now?

• 1:31:51Speaker 02

  A security clearance. Um, I don't know, I just, uh, I'm not saying I wouldn't. All I'm saying is I'm so hyper focused on what I'm doing now that I don't, I don't, there'll be a time and a utility for it, there'll be a time and place for it. And I do think, I've talked to lots of veterans, um, other guys, um, who have done like the, uh, um, what, they go to South America and they do.

• 1:32:15Speaker 00

  Ibergaine?

• 1:32:16Speaker 02

  Ibergaine.

• 1:32:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:32:18Speaker 02

  Um, and, you know, I talked to one guy, um, who said, you know, he had a ton of antidepressants and medication and stuff. And he went down there and did that and when he got back, he threw it all away and he was better afterwards. Um, so there's definitely value there, but again, that's that, that, that's that pattern of diving into unconsciousness and diving into these, this world that will judge you. Um, and some people come back better, some people come back broken, some people overcook the goose, I'm not sure. Um, I think I would probably do it, uh, one day. Um, I'm just so busy building, I, I would worry, I also worry about my mind. Like I also know I would never do like a cocaine or I would never do like some of these

• 1:33:01Speaker 02

  other drugs because I'm really already highly strung and I'm already hyper focused on things.

• 1:33:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's why I've avoided Adderall, even though it's very interesting to me.

• 1:33:10Speaker 02

  I would never be able to get near, I mean, I do nicotine.

• 1:33:13Speaker 00

  I might wanna try it once.

• 1:33:14Speaker 02

  I do nicotine because it helps me think. It's the only thing that can make me focus. Like when I, I don't do too many a day, but when I do them, it's usually when I'm trying to think about a problem or like zero in on something. Whereas other people, like makes them feel like giddy or high or whatever, I get no feeling from this other than, like it just.

• 1:33:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's a, it's a definite nootropic.

• 1:33:35Speaker 02

  Makes the world focus in. Um, and I had it, you know, when I was in Iraq, on my second tour to Iraq, I started doing like mint skull, cause we'd convoy like a long ways and there wasn't anything to do. It's not like we had a turtle box or a Bluetooth speaker in the Humvee. You just had six hours of driving in front of you. So I'm gonna throw a skull in, just like dip mint skull and, but then I started brushing my gums away, so I quit. And then when this stuff came out, I was like, oh, I get to get the nicotine without the, without brushing my gums away, sign me up.

• 1:34:08Speaker 00

  Right. Yeah, it's very addictive to people. It's interesting. It's, uh, it's, this stuff, these pouches have come out of nowhere.

• 1:34:16Speaker 02

  I get off of them every once in a while, like I'll switch to, um, there's this one that I use, um, that's got no nicotine in it.

• 1:34:23Speaker 00

  Ultras?

• 1:34:24Speaker 02

  Ultras, yeah. So I'll just do like that for like two or three weeks.

• 1:34:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, those are great.

• 1:34:30Speaker 02

  And then.

• 1:34:31Speaker 00

  And that's just nootropics.

• 1:34:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, and so I'm not, you know, wired up. Like the first day is always like, this kinda sucks, like I want one. I don't have like the come down that most people have where I'm like, I'm gonna kill someone if I don't get one right now.

• 1:34:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's interesting.

• 1:34:44Speaker 02

  But I do get, I do get, um, disagreeable.

• 1:34:47Speaker 00

  I don't, I think it's biological, man. I, I can just stop taking them. I took them, uh. Like, uh, when I was on vacation, I took off ten days and no problem at all. And I do that all the time. I take three, four days off. Doesn't irritate me. But I think that's biological. I think some people have that weird thing and some people don't. And some people, they, it gets in their system to the point where they need it all the time. And some people don't. I've heard horror stories of people. Um, I've also heard horror stories of people with other stuff that I find really troubling, like kratom. Kratom's a big one.

• 1:35:25Speaker 02

  What is that? I'm sorry?

• 1:35:26Speaker 00

  That's that weird fucking, it's kind of an opiate. And it's everywhere. It's in those live free drinks and those, there's a lot of different, like, they banned the synthetic version of it from gas stations now. People are buying this stuff in convenience stores and weird sketchy stores.

• 1:35:43Speaker 02

  And it's an opiate?

• 1:35:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, man.

• 1:35:45Speaker 02

  That you could buy in a grocery store or a convenience store?

• 1:35:47Speaker 00

  You can get it from a leaf, right? It's from a plant called a kratom. Kratom leaf. I don't know what the plant is. But this stuff has become very popular. And, uh, I've heard horror stories of people going to like, you know, a quote unquote, health food store, like a juice shop, and they have these little live free drinks. And they go, oh, this must be healthy. It's in this place. And you drink it and you're fucking vomiting and it's like, you feel like you're on opiates.

• 1:36:14Speaker 02

  Wow. I've not even ever heard of this.

• 1:36:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's interesting because there was a guy that, uh, he had some real problems with opiates. And then he started telling me that, well, he got off opiates, got clean. And then he was telling me about kratom, that he takes kratom. And I say, uh, what is this stuff? And he said, well, at low doses, it acts almost like a stimulant, like caffeine. And then at higher doses, it's, uh, it's, it more relaxes you. And I'm like, okay, like, well, how much do you take? So he told me, well, you know, if you want to take a couple of them, like before a podcast or something, try it. And I did. And I was like, hmm, this is kind of interesting. Took a couple of pills. I was like, it is, it's kind of like a little stimulant. No big deal. And then I said, how much do you take?

• 1:36:58Speaker 00

  And, uh, he said, well, before I wake out, work out, I take ten. So I said, what? I go, you take ten? I go, what does that feel like? He goes, I don't have a problem with it at all. So I took ten. And, uh, I called him up and I said, hey, man, I go, you're high. I go, you're getting high. This is, you're not sober. Like, this is not a sober thing. You're, uh, this, I'm high as fuck right now. It was a weird high because it was a high that didn't seem to affect my motor skills. So, uh, uh, it was at the studio I did it. So I worked out, have no problem working out. It didn't affect my cardio. It didn't affect my ability to lift weights. It didn't affect anything. And then I was playing pool. It didn't affect my ability to play pool either.

• 1:37:41Speaker 00

  It didn't like, uh, fuck with my motor skills, like alcohol will.

• 1:37:45Speaker 02

  What do you feel like when you're on it? Like, what are you feeling?

• 1:37:47Speaker 00

  So it's weird. It's a weird high. Uh, but whatever it is, it's a high. I was like, dude, you're high as fuck. If you're taking ten of these, like, you're not sober. And, you know, I think there's a bunch of people that have had problems with opiates that don't recognize that this takes them down that same road. And then I know a lot of people that are heavily addicted to kratom and can't get off of it.

• 1:38:12Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:38:13Speaker 00

  Like friends. I have one good friend who takes it every day. He's taking, he drinks bottles of these things and he's drinking like six a day. I was like, fuck dude, that's crazy.

• 1:38:22Speaker 04

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• 1:38:53Speaker 00

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• 1:39:51Speaker 02

  I, I, I'm so afraid of drugs. Just because I come from a family of, not to smite my own, I love my family, but just drug addicts and alcoholics.

• 1:39:59Speaker 00

  Many people do. I mean, it's, it's not, nothing to be ashamed of. It's normal.

• 1:40:03Speaker 02

  I think I'm the only one who's not been to jail or rehab.

• 1:40:07Speaker 00

  That's crazy.

• 1:40:08Speaker 02

  And then, you know, I've got two sisters that died from overdoses and a brother that killed himself.

• 1:40:11Speaker 00

  Oh my god. Fuck.

• 1:40:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, two years ago or three years ago, my sister Jenny died. Maybe even longer, four years ago. And then my sister Heather, who was most like me in the family. In other words, like, we both wanted to get out of North Dakota. And, um, she married into a great family, like one of the best families I've ever seen. And then got on antidepressants. And then I believe when she got off the antidepressants, it was really rough. Like a really rough time for her. And she got addicted to methamphetamines. And then ended up leaving her family and going up to like Fort McMurray, Alberta. And she was up there for like seven years and wouldn't talk to any of us. And her and I were very close growing up. We were the most alike.

• 1:40:55Speaker 02

  And that we just wanted to leave North Dakota and see the world and do things and, um, and so while she was up there, she was at like a rehab facility. And, and this wacky fucking Canadian, America's top hat place, they would give them meth once a week.

• 1:41:15Speaker 00

  What?

• 1:41:15Speaker 02

  At the facility. Yeah. And so she either stored up her meth, like didn't do it one week and kept it and faked it, or got some from someone else, but did like a critical amount of meth and killed herself at the facility. And, and, um,

• 1:41:34Speaker 00

  They would give you meth?

• 1:41:35Speaker 02

  They were giving it, I mean,

• 1:41:36Speaker 00

  Why were they giving you meth?

• 1:41:37Speaker 02

  Jamie, you can look this up, but there's a term for it and I don't remember what it was because I asked the same question. Because her brother, or my brother, ex-brother-in-law, her husband, Rick, told me. And I was like, why are they giving it to people? And he's like, well, they wanted them doing it like in a clean, safe environment instead of like out on the streets. And I'm like, how about we just get them off of that shit? Like, can we all agree that's bad?

• 1:41:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, what a strange strategy. This is the strategy that they employ in a lot of these cities, right? Where they give people access to drugs that are safe and they also give them clean needles and crack pipes. This is something that you see particularly on the West Coast. It's a very common thing in the Pacific Northwest. There's a bunch of these places that will give people, they give them money. They'll give you drugs and they'll give you needles. And, uh, the idea is that you're providing them with safe access.

• 1:42:28Speaker 02

  Well, it killed my sister. Well, she killed herself, but I'm, I'm saying, you know, my family's just the story, not the story of it. There's good people in my family, very good people, that I love very much. So I'm not trying to smite my own, but we have a problem with addiction.

• 1:42:42Speaker 00

  Dude, a lot of people have a problem with addiction, whether they believe it or not. You know, I think addiction is a normal part of human behavior. And I, I think there's probably, uh, an evolutionary aspect to that. I think, um, addiction is what allows people to get very focused on certain things. Like, uh, like to become a good hunter. What do you have to do? Well, you have to be very addicted to the idea of hunting.

• 1:43:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:43:10Speaker 00

  You know, and I think that same sort of pathway can be very destructive. And it can be very destructive, like you can get addicted to gambling, which I've seen a lot of people get addicted to gambling. Or you can get addicted to drugs and alcohol. You know, there's this guy that I knew that was a world-class pool player, like one of the best in the world. And, uh, he hurt his back in a car accident and then become addicted to pills. And my friend Tommy said this best. He said, the same thing that made him great at pool made him addicted to those fucking pills. Like, he couldn't put them down. He, he was just invested in those pills. He wanted to take them all the time. And he died of a drug overdose, young. And this was a guy that never drank, never smoked, was clean, sober.

• 1:43:51Speaker 00

  And was just, his number one focus was just being the best pool player in the world. And, um, I think that thing that we all have, especially some people have, in, in spades, I have it, is, I become very addicted to things.

• 1:44:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, me too.

• 1:44:09Speaker 00

  Very focused on things where it consumes me.

• 1:44:12Speaker 02

  Golf did that to me. I don't golf anymore, but I got to where I was like a six handicap, which is a fairly good golfer.

• 1:44:19Speaker 00

  What are you, Jamie?

• 1:44:22Speaker 00

  About fourteen, fifteen?

• 1:44:26Speaker 02

  So I just shot, I played for the first time in a few months the other day and just shot like twelve over, which is like a good golfer. But there was a point when I lived in Hawaii that I was like, you know, I shot a couple of par rounds, like one or two over. And I did this solely because somebody told me I was too much of a fucking gorilla and I'd never be good at it. That was the sole reason. Every time I was practicing, I'm like, I'm gonna show that motherfucker. I'm gonna show him. I'm gonna show him.

• 1:44:49Speaker 00

  That's so ridiculous.

• 1:44:50Speaker 02

  I'm gonna beat it. And I like devoted my whole life to it. And then when I got really good and I was better than most people I ran into, I lost all interest. I hardly ever do it now.

• 1:44:59Speaker 00

  Really?

• 1:45:00Speaker 02

  Hardly ever do it. It's how am I, that's, it's really weird. It's happened to me a couple of times in life where I would go down a road of addiction. Just fortunately, the addictions were in like positive, kind of, you know, positive control loops. Where I would get into something hard. And then once I felt like I had a certain level of mastery, I'd move on to something else.

• 1:45:25Speaker 00

  Well, that's probably the part of you that wants to learn something from scratch again, to go through that same process.

• 1:45:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:45:30Speaker 00

  Which is, that's the most important part, I think. The most difficult part is the beginning. Becoming a beginner at things, I think is very beneficial to you. Yeah, it's very beneficial to you to learn that there's something that, oh my God, I know nothing about this. I'm terrible at this. I have so much room to grow.

• 1:45:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:45:48Speaker 00

  Whereas something that you've been doing for a long, long time, it, you know, it becomes more of like fine tuning.

• 1:45:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:45:57Speaker 00

  And these slow incremental improvements, rather than understanding this is like enormous sea of information that you're not, you don't have access to yet.

• 1:46:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, with golf, it was like, I'm hitting the ball straight. Moving on.

• 1:46:10Speaker 00

  That's nuts.

• 1:46:11Speaker 02

  Uh, like next thing. Bow hunting is though, is something I haven't exhausted. Obviously, technology is something I haven't exhausted.

• 1:46:19Speaker 00

  Well, I think bow hunting is so variable too. There's so many different things. If every shot was twenty yards and every animal stood still, it would be boring. You'd get bored of it. Well, I don't think you'd get bored of it, but it wouldn't have the same appeal that it has where it's completely chaotic. One of you doesn't even know the game you're playing, that's the animal. You know, it's, it's playing a different game. It's game of survival. It's looking for predators and you are a predator, but it doesn't understand how you're doing it. And your, your, your thing is like to get to a position where you can execute, execute a shot and do it right. And then the amount of time that you have to put into it, I think is the real thing for me.

• 1:47:00Speaker 00

  It's like the understanding that, look, if I take a few days off of archery and I go and shoot, my first few shots are a little shaky. Like a lot of times I'll still, you know, hit the ten ring at sixty yards with, you know, a few days off. But it feels a little odd. It feels, doesn't feel a hundred percent locked in. And then I have to do it again till I'm locked in. And if I had to shoot an animal like that, like if I had to shoot, if I had a very difficult shot on an elk at like seventy yards and I hadn't shot a bow in two months, I would not take it. I wouldn't be able to, which is nuts.

• 1:47:37Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:47:37Speaker 00

  I've, I've shot thousands of arrows at seventy yards effectively in a lethal zone.

• 1:47:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:47:44Speaker 00

  And yet I wouldn't be confident that I could do it. Where there's a lot of other things that I would be very confident that I could do if I hadn't done in months.

• 1:47:53Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:47:53Speaker 00

  It's weird.

• 1:47:54Speaker 02

  It is weird.

• 1:47:55Speaker 00

  And I think because of that, because it's such an engrossing and involving process. The process of archery in particular, and then bow hunting at the extreme level of it. I think there's two different extreme levels of archery. There's target archery, which I think is extreme mentally, but it's still a stable, static shot. Static target versus bow hunting, which is non-static, moving, enormous animals and all their senses and all the different things that are involved, wind, all, all the factors, elevation, changes. There's a lot of stuff going on. They're moving. There's a lot of things happening that you never can master it. There's no mastery. You can get more effective than you used to be.

• 1:48:38Speaker 02

  And there's different ways to do it.

• 1:48:40Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:48:40Speaker 02

  Like I've got, like, I'm a very analytically minded bow hunter. I like breaking everything down, understanding the thermals, rise and fall of the sun, first light, last light. What are these thermals gonna do on this hill? Where's this buck coming from? Where's the doe bedding? Where are the scrapes outside of that doe bedding? How do I get down one of them? How do I avoid the parking lots? How do I do all of these things? Then I've got this other buddy, his name's Johnny Stewart, who is just a deer. Like I'll go scouting with him. This guy kills two or three big bucks every year. And you would think this guy must have like a system. And he's just like, this feels like a place where they're deer. I was like, well, John, what are you talking about right now? He's like, I don't know, Bill, but like, just the way this place looks to me.

• 1:49:20Speaker 00

  What's pattern recognition too, right?

• 1:49:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, but he's pulling it from a place where he, he can't cite to you what's going on.

• 1:49:27Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:49:27Speaker 02

  Whereas when I walk into a spot, I'm like, well, I've got three intersecting trails that come here. There's, you know, doe bedding over here. I've got two scrapes here. The thermals come up at eight thirty, so I wanna be, I wanna wait for the thermal switch before I get into my stand. Otherwise, my scent is gonna paint this side of the mountain. And he's just like, this looks good.

• 1:49:44Speaker 00

  It's interesting that there's, there's people that are system oriented and then there's other people that are instinctive.

• 1:49:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:49:51Speaker 00

  That, that's a, a big factor in striking. So in striking, one of the things that I find interesting is some people who are great strikers, and by strikers, I'm talking about martial arts.

• 1:50:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:50:02Speaker 00

  Uh, some people have a system and they're really good at like showing their system and teaching their system. And other people can't quite tell you what they're doing.

• 1:50:12Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:50:12Speaker 00

  They just know how to do it. They know how to, they know how to like do something at varying speeds in order to fuck with someone's perceptions and their timing and reads.

• 1:50:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:50:22Speaker 00

  And they just do it instinctively. And it's just, they've done it, they've done it so many times, they just know what they're doing, but they can't teach it.

• 1:50:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's so strange, especially when you talk to people who are at that very high level. Like, I, I think you know, but I've become pretty good friends with George St. Pierre.

• 1:50:40Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:50:41Speaker 02

  And when you, him and I bear hunted last year together and I spent basically a week with him. And I didn't do jiu-jitsu. I did mixed martial arts in the milit, or I did combatives, we called it in the military for like seven, eight years. So it was a little different. Like you would learn the basics, but then it would get into, all right, now that you've got him in this position, you can stab him or now that you're in this position, you can break contact. Or like, so there was a combat nexus to it.

• 1:51:06Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:51:07Speaker 02

  That wasn't strictly jiu-jitsu. There was more to it. And, um, but like talking to him and then just like messing around or seeing like how he applies pressure or what he's doing, or how he's a great wrestler and how he integrates these other things. It's just, when you deal with these people, or like with Gordon, it's like you're at a level that's just, I couldn't ever get there, even if I hoped to. And even if you could explain to me what's, like, in other words, Gordon could pin me in a position and say, here's what you gotta do. I still can't do it. You know what I'm saying? Like.

• 1:51:39Speaker 00

  To him.

• 1:51:39Speaker 02

  To him. Um, and so they're just at such a level that even if they are able to articulate it to you, you're still not getting there because you don't have everything that it takes to bridge the gap from here to there.

• 1:51:49Speaker 00

  Well, Gordon's very systematic, you know? And it comes from his teaching under Donahue. Like Donahue, John Donahue was, I think, the great mastermind of jiu-jitsu. He has a very specific systems and he breaks things down. Like they're very technique oriented. And then there's, there's things that you just learn from over the course of training. There's the flow of it all.

• 1:52:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:52:15Speaker 00

  That you learn from it. But Gordon is like a great example of someone who's an amazing teacher as well as an amazing jiu-jitsu competitor. Because like his, um, a big part of his income comes from his instructional, selling instructional.

• 1:52:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:52:30Speaker 00

  Cause they're so good.

• 1:52:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. He, I mean, the thing that's interesting to me about Donahue is like, he's almost like a first principles jiu-jitsu guy. Like when you hear him talk, like he breaks things down to like very elemental levels. Where it's like, what is the point of jiu-jitsu? What are you doing with jiu-jitsu? Like, what are you trying to establish? And it's like, I'm not even thinking about these things, but he's like, cause I think his background's in philosophy, right? Or something like that.

• 1:52:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, Columbia.

• 1:52:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:52:55Speaker 00

  He was, he was a professor.

• 1:52:57Speaker 02

  That's, that's crazy to, that transition to me.

• 1:52:59Speaker 00

  Or Lisa, was he a professor or was he, it was, definitely he was a PhD, I believe. And then started doing jiu-jitsu because he was a bouncer and wanted to learn how to fight. It's like, I probably should learn how to fight, cause he was a power lifter at one point in time and a rugby player also.

• 1:53:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:53:15Speaker 00

  And then became obsessed and, you know, became the greatest coach of all time. And he's like a character from a film.

• 1:53:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:53:23Speaker 00

  Really, he doesn't, he doesn't exist in real life because he's a guy who wears a rash guard every day.

• 1:53:27Speaker 02

  Everywhere he goes. I saw pictures of him at a wedding. You just took the words out of my mouth.

• 1:53:31Speaker 00

  He's, I mean, but he's a real eccentric. It's not like he's trying to be eccentric.

• 1:53:35Speaker 02

  It's like he's either this or he's a bad guy in a Bond movie.

• 1:53:38Speaker 00

  Okay, so six degree black belt, arrived in the United States in ninety-one to study at Columbia University's Philosophy PhD program. After arriving in New York, Donahue was introduced to Brazilian jiu-jitsu. Continued training at the academy, became teaching classes as well while Gracie, Henzo Gracie was traveling for competition. So did he finish his education and did he start teaching?

• 1:54:01Speaker 02

  PhD.

• 1:54:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:54:02Speaker 01

  Master's degree in philosophy and was pursuing a PhD.

• 1:54:05Speaker 00

  Hmm, okay.

• 1:54:06Speaker 01

  In epistemology.

• 1:54:07Speaker 00

  And so that's when he became obsessed. And so while he was attending the university, he worked as a bouncer in various Manhattan nightclubs. So I've elevated his education, but a little bit.

• 1:54:16Speaker 02

  That's insane.

• 1:54:17Speaker 00

  I thought he was teaching. But he, uh, when he started teaching jiu-jitsu, he was like sleeping on the mats. Like he's, he was there all day long, every day.

• 1:54:25Speaker 02

  Another addictive personality.

• 1:54:27Speaker 00

  Not just that, but a man who is obsessed with, uh, do you know the Japanese term kaizen?

• 1:54:32Speaker 02

  I've heard you talk about it.

• 1:54:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, kaizen is you continue to improve on one thing constantly. Where it's this never ending cycle of improvement. And this is his philosophy that applies to jiu-jitsu. This is this continual cycle of improvement. You know, there's, uh, there's certain applications that people have seen, like the, the application of kaizen in engineering, for example. Like a good example is like they take a specific platform and continue to work out, like, a good example is the Nissan GT-R. Are you aware of the Nissan GT-R?

• 1:55:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, yes, yeah.

• 1:55:09Speaker 00

  So Nissan GT-R is one of the best examples of that, where it is essentially the same car for twenty plus years.

• 1:55:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:55:16Speaker 00

  And they, they don't change the body shape. They don't change the geometry. They don't change the way it's all-wheel drive sports car. But what they do is continue to refine it to the point where it was just fucking dialed in.

• 1:55:31Speaker 02

  Tweaking it.

• 1:55:31Speaker 00

  Just constantly improving it and just dialing it in, dialing it in further, further, further, further, further. And if you get like a 2025, I think it was 2025 or 2026 was the last year they made the GTR and you compare it to like a one that was released in the 19, God, when was the first GTR? Was it 2000s? Was it?

• 1:55:54Speaker 02

  I think it was late, late 90s, I thought, but maybe early 2000s.

• 1:55:57Speaker 00

  It might be early 2000s. I think it's in the 2000s, but it almost looks the same, but they're so much better. And that's, that's the same with everything. I mean, Kaizen, as applied to mixed martial arts, as a whole, like if you looked at mixed martial arts as a whole, all of these individuals that are competing in it and all these individuals that are pursuing it and teaching it and, and studying it, they're essentially doing that. They're taking this thing, that used to be this chaotic thing where, you know, there was certain strategies that people had, you know, one guy was a brawler, the other guy was a grappler, get you down the ground, punch you in the face a bunch of

• 1:56:36Speaker 00

  times. And then they're expanding the possibilities to this like insane level where you're seeing people now that are like on the Dana White Contender Series that would be absolute world champions in 1994.

• 1:56:51Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:56:51Speaker 00

  And these guys haven't even entered the UFC yet.

• 1:56:53Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:56:54Speaker 00

  You know, because the level of the game.

• 1:56:56Speaker 02

  So far.

• 1:56:56Speaker 00

  There's this constant pursuit of excellence.

• 1:56:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:56:59Speaker 00

  And then this competition, this boiling pot of competition where you have, I mean, how many MMA athletes are there worldwide now?

• 1:57:07Speaker 02

  My God.

• 1:57:07Speaker 00

  Who knows? It's gotta be in the hundreds of thousands of elite MMA athletes. When I say elite, I mean like guys who can fight professionally. I would, I would say this problem, I mean, they might not all be fighting professionally yet, but they're at that level. When you introduce amateurs and you think about how many thousands and thousands and thousands of gyms there are, and out of those gyms, how many people have like people that are at a very high level? Fuck, it's crazy. So this is a new thing. Like, I, I say this all the time, but it really is accurate. Martial arts have evolved more in the last 33 years than they have in the last 33,000 years. And that is true. Cause from the time

• 1:57:49Speaker 00

  the UFC came about in 1993, I mean, the Brazilians were way ahead. The Brazilians were way, the Gracie family in particular, were way ahead of the curve. They were pursuing this and looking into this in the 1940s and 50s. Like Ili O'Gracy was having mixed martial arts competitions in the 1940s. You know, they were having, they called it Valley Tudo. It was anything goes. And they were having fights in the ring in front of large groups of people, long before the UFC was ever around. You know, Hicks and Gracie famously had them when he was 18 years old. When he became the champion of the family. I mean, he was, he was defeating much larger people when he was 18.

• 1:58:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. I remember watching that back in the day too, like peak UFC, not peak, but it's big now. I still go to it now, but watching like GSP in his heyday back in the day and stuff like that is just.

• 1:58:39Speaker 00

  Well, that was peak emergence.

• 1:58:41Speaker 02

  Peak emergence, yeah.

• 1:58:41Speaker 00

  Yeah. Peak emergence was like 2005 on, so 2005 was the Ultimate Fighter. And it's very rare when one moment really sort of defines the growth of a sport, but you can find that in MMA. And in that one moment was the Stefan Bonner, Forrest Griffin fight in the finals of the Ultimate Fighter on Spike TV. It got millions and millions of people watching it, like more than anything anybody had ever watched on Spike TV before. And it was just because it was so good. It was so crazy. And you see the rise of people watching it. They could, they could track the ratings in real time. So people were calling their friends, going, dude, you gotta fucking watch this. Turn on Spike TV. This is crazy.

• 1:59:22Speaker 00

  And they were watching it and it, it changed the entire course of martial arts forever. That, that one fight.

• 1:59:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, for me, the one, my watershed moment was like GSP bisping, like watching, when GSP went up a weight class.

• 1:59:39Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:59:40Speaker 02

  And what year was that? 2017 or something?

• 1:59:44Speaker 00

  Somewhere around there. Yeah. Went up to middleweight. Yeah.

• 1:59:47Speaker 02

  But for me, it was just like, okay, now I'm obsessed. Cause this guy's just done so, like I thought, I loved GSP, I know him, but I didn't think at the, I didn't know him at the time. I just thought, I don't know, this is gonna be tough. Just to watch somebody go up another weight class and go and win in this like, I just, it was amazing. It was amazing.

• 2:00:05Speaker 00

  By the way, GSP is not even a big welterweight. You know, GSP, when you look at welterweights today, GSP is the size of a large middleweight, or excuse me, a large lightweight today. A large 155 pounder today.

• 2:00:17Speaker 02

  I think he walks around like 160 right now or something like that.

• 2:00:20Speaker 00

  That's light. I think he's heavier than that. I think he's in the 80s.

• 2:00:23Speaker 02

  Is he?

• 2:00:23Speaker 00

  Maybe in the, maybe even in the 90s. Well, it depends on how much he's weightlifting and what he's doing.

• 2:00:28Speaker 02

  I thought he was less.

• 2:00:29Speaker 00

  He's definitely heavier than that. But in his prime, he would hover around the, the high 190s and then cut down to 170.

• 2:00:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, but he was a beast in that fight TV. He looked like such a beast.

• 2:00:39Speaker 00

  Like, do you, do you follow closely like top contenders now?

• 2:00:43Speaker 02

  Not closely. Not like I should. No, not as closely as I should. I mean, I, I'll watch the big events or like, you know.

• 2:00:48Speaker 00

  There's this cat, Michael Morales. He's one of the scariest guys in the 170 pound division. He's a fucking monster. Like a really, really dangerous guy and he's enormous. He gets well over 220. Well over 220 and gets down to 170.

• 2:01:03Speaker 02

  And just cuts at the last minute?

• 2:01:04Speaker 00

  No, he, he cuts it slowly over time, but then he rehydrates and reinflates. And when you see him inside the octagon, you're like, how the fuck? And I don't know how many times he can do that. So that is essentially.

• 2:01:16Speaker 02

  That's tough on the body.

• 2:01:17Speaker 00

  Very. Brutal on the kidneys. It is essentially a, a death's door event. You're getting to death's door. You're getting to death's door 24 hours before you have to fight in a cage. And then you're rehydrating yourself and replenishing yourself, not to 100% by the way.

• 2:01:34Speaker 02

  No, you can't.

• 2:01:35Speaker 00

  You're not.

• 2:01:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:01:36Speaker 00

  There's no way. So this is how big Morales is. He's fucking enormous, dude. And he's so powerful. He's absolutely huge for the weight class. When you see him, he looks like a light heavyweight. He really does. Cause he is. I mean, he's basically like 220 pounds now. He looks like a big middleweight when he's in there.

• 2:01:53Speaker 02

  Jeez.

• 2:01:53Speaker 00

  But yet somehow or another, he makes it to 170. And he's undefeated and not just undefeated in the UFC, he's starching people. And he's a wrestler who very rarely wrestles and has a judo background, very rarely uses that.

• 2:02:08Speaker 02

  It's kinda like, uh, Gaethje, right?

• 2:02:10Speaker 00

  Gaethje, Justin Gaethje, yeah.

• 2:02:12Speaker 02

  He doesn't.

• 2:02:12Speaker 00

  In a way, but this guy is much bigger and just a real seek and destroy welterweight. And one of the absolute top contenders. Terrifying human.

• 2:02:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. I just meant that Gaethje was a really good wrestler.

• 2:02:25Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:02:25Speaker 02

  And you hardly ever see him wrestling.

• 2:02:27Speaker 00

  Right, right. Well, it takes a lot of energy to wrestle people. That's part of the problem. In order to grapple and constantly shoot and taking people down, it's one of the most energy intensive aspects of MMA. Like shooting on someone, you're exploding.

• 2:02:40Speaker 02

  Lot of energy.

• 2:02:41Speaker 00

  And then you're wrestling with them. So you're, you're grappling with all their strength, using technique and leverage, and then you have to hoist their body up in the air and slam them to the ground.

• 2:02:51Speaker 02

  And get that takedown.

• 2:02:51Speaker 00

  And you can only do that so many times, which is one of the reasons why Marab is so fucking extraordinary. Is the fact that that guy could do that full blast for five rounds. It's insane. His, his cardio should be studied in a fucking laboratory. Cause he's a real freak.

• 2:03:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:03:09Speaker 00

  He's a real freak.

• 2:03:10Speaker 02

  I bet.

• 2:03:11Speaker 00

  But very few people have that ability. He breaks world-class fighters. Like, you know, Umar Nurmagomedov, like when he fought him, like, it's like, he almost couldn't believe that this guy was still doing this, like deep into the fifth round. Like it was just so crazy. His, his, his work output. And most people don't have that. So most people, when they're really good grapplers, they develop a style that's like a mix of grappling and striking. Cause there's, even Khabib, like one of the rounds with Conor McGregor, he never shot for a takedown.

• 2:03:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:03:43Speaker 00

  It's the round that Conor won. And it's because he just chose to stand because he had to like realize like, okay, I burned so much energy in the first couple of rounds going after this guy, taking him down, smashing him. Like, I can't keep this up. I have to take a round where I don't burn off as much energy and let my body recover a bit.

• 2:04:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. The White House fight, I watched that from my cabin out in North Dakota. The event at the White, so I was alone. I've, I've shown you pictures, cabin out in the middle of nowhere. It was my father's cabin that I, I bought back in the family like four years ago. Rebuilt it from the ground up. And I was like, I'm in the perfect place to watch this fight. I was so hyped up, like watching the whole thing. Like my son was coming downstairs. I was like, not now, I'm watching the fight. Like leave me alone, watch the fight. I was cheering. It was crazy. I just remember watching Ilya talk, I think he was on your podcast, wasn't he? Saying he was just gonna decimate Gaethje.

• 2:04:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:04:35Speaker 02

  And, uh, that, it was.

• 2:04:37Speaker 00

  Well, he thought it was gonna be easy. And I said, man, I don't know how you could think it. And a lot of people were saying to me, like when I was saying, Justin has a huge chance. And they were go, oh, you're hyping this fight up. I know what you do. Like Ari Shafir accused me of that. He's like, oh, I know what you're doing. The guy who's gonna lose, you're, you're saying he has a chance. I go, no, he has a real fucking chance. He's insanely durable. He's extremely experienced in very high level competition against world-class fighters. And he's been in the deep trenches where you're in hell. Like if you're in a war, like the wars that he had, like with Dustin Poirier, he had a war, he had that war with Max Holloway. He's been in those trench wars where it's four and five rounds. You've been beaten up for fucking three rounds. Your body's broken.

• 2:05:22Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:05:22Speaker 00

  And you're exhausted and yet you have to persevere and press on.

• 2:05:26Speaker 02

  He's a freak of nature.

• 2:05:27Speaker 00

  He's amazing.

• 2:05:28Speaker 02

  So Tyler from Archery Country, uh, is a good friend of mine. We were in Vegas for the Patty fight with Gaethje.

• 2:05:34Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:05:35Speaker 02

  Um, that you were gracious enough to invite me to. And, um, we, we, I don't gamble. And, but we were leaving a casino. We were there for some reason. And I think I had like a hundred bucks in my pocket. So Tyler and I were like, we're gonna go back or go, we're gonna go to the fight, I think. Actually, we were going to the fight. So I sat down at like a three card poker table and I was like, it's an easy game. Let's just play. Like I got a hundred bucks. Let's just do this. So I ended up getting up to like a thousand dollars at this three card poker table with Tyler. So I was like, dude, like, let's just leave. Like we've got the money. Like let's just get out of here. So we're walking out of the casino and he says, hey, why don't we put money on the, um, Gaethje fight tonight against Pimblett? And I was like, okay. So I had to like download an app and we went

• 2:06:20Speaker 02

  to the thing and like placed the bet at the place. And we both were like, we gotta bet on Justin. Like it's gotta go this way. It's like, you know, cause, and he was the underdog.

• 2:06:28Speaker 00

  He was?

• 2:06:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. He was the underdog for sure. Cause I got paid, I put down 500 or something like that.

• 2:06:35Speaker 00

  Wow, that's crazy.

• 2:06:36Speaker 02

  Can you certify that? But I'm 99% sure because I got a big payday on it. I made like, I think I got 2,000 bucks. Or maybe fifteen hundred or something like that.

• 2:06:45Speaker 00

  I do not know why he would be the underdog.

• 2:06:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, there it is.

• 2:06:48Speaker 00

  Patty Pimble is the favorite and Justin Gage is the underdog. Wow.

• 2:06:51Speaker 02

  So we put-

• 2:06:52Speaker 00

  Minus two thirty-eight, that's crazy.

• 2:06:55Speaker 02

  So we, we put that five hundred apiece that we won playing three card, that I won playing three card poker on Justin.

• 2:07:02Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 2:07:03Speaker 02

  And then we got paid and it was in like my DraftKings account or whatever, whatever, wherever the money got deposited. I didn't even know how to get to the money. I just had fifteen hundred bucks there. So at the, at the White House fight, I called Tyler that night, that day of, and I said, dude, I'm just gonna put all of this money back on Justin again. And he's like, ah, I already took my money out. I should have done that. And I was like, I mean, it was a hundred bucks. And now it's fifteen hundred bucks. So I put it all on the, and he was the underdog again for the Ilya fight.

• 2:07:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:07:30Speaker 02

  So it ended up being like six K.

• 2:07:33Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 2:07:33Speaker 02

  That I turned from a hundred dollars into like six K and then I took it out and used it to rebuild my house. So Justin, I owe Justin my, my upstairs. I paid for all the flooring upstairs from Justin's fists.

• 2:07:46Speaker 00

  That's a good way to gamble. Yeah, that's good, that's good, healthy gambling.

• 2:07:50Speaker 02

  Never do it again, but it was awesome. I mean, I had one run.

• 2:07:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm very conflicted about gambling because I've met a lot of gambling addicts. I know a lot of gambling, because I come from the pool world, you know, and the pool world was filled with gambling addicts. That was my first real exposure to people that are addicted. They would go to off-track betting before they ever got to the pool hall. And then they'd show up at the pool hall during the day. They'd have stories, the fucking horse, I, I bet on this horse, he didn't come in. They were all addicts. And then they would all be looking for action.

• 2:08:19Speaker 02

  Oh my god.

• 2:08:21Speaker 00

  They'd play gin. There was guys that would play gin, or they'd play poker. There was like a whole like elevated level where it's like seating and stuff where it was like above the pool tables where guys would hang out and have card games. And then they would gamble on pool games. And everybody was just in action. It was in, everyone was in action. And part of me is like, oh, you know, gambling can be destructive, right? But it wasn't for me. So why is that? So isn't it like, isn't it a, a personal control thing? Like, isn't it like recognizing what's detrimental to you and what's positive? Isn't that a bunch of aspects of life? Like, I'm pro alcohol too, but I recognize that people could become alcoholics. Right? But isn't that also like a personal control thing?

• 2:09:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:09:05Speaker 00

  Like, should you, shouldn't you know what you, you can do and what you can't do? And isn't the real thing, learning how to control yourself? I mean, so I don't have any problem with gambling at all. And I know way too many people who enjoy it to ever like come out against gambling. But yet I have friends that are staunchly anti-gambling. And they think that these gambling apps are terrible. And think these casinos are terrible. And then we should outlaw all of it. And I'm like, man.

• 2:09:31Speaker 02

  You just shove it underground.

• 2:09:33Speaker 00

  It's also, people have enjoyed that since the beginning of time. And then also coming from the world that I come from, coming from the pool world, gambling is a huge part of how you get good at pool. One of the things about pool is stakes. Like, you know the term pool? It comes from pooling money together to gamble?

• 2:09:50Speaker 02

  No, I did not know that.

• 2:09:51Speaker 00

  Yeah. It's not called pool. It's called pocket billiards. So the original, the original billiards game, well, there's a game that is also still played in a lot of Latin American countries, South Korea, they're really big on it. And it's called three cushion billiards. And three cushion billiards is a game that you play on a table that doesn't have any pockets. And what it is, is you have three balls. And the key is understanding geometry and force and spin and how it affects the rails. So the rails are all these rubber rails. And in three cushion billiards, you contact one ball, and then you have to go three cushions, contact the second ball, and then the, the, the original ball. So

• 2:10:35Speaker 00

  you're contacting these, these three balls, but also hitting three cushions.

• 2:10:40Speaker 02

  Huh.

• 2:10:41Speaker 00

  Yeah. Or two, the two balls, but also hitting, uh, hitting three cushions. So you can't just hit one ball into another ball. There's a, there's a, there is an old billiard game where they did that, but it's a very boring game. But this three cushion game is a much more dynamic form of it. So that's billiards. And then there's pocket billiards. So pocket billiards is what people think of as pool. Is where you're shooting a ball into a hole. And there's six holes on the table. So pool comes from the term of pooling money together to gamble on pocket billiards.

• 2:11:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:11:13Speaker 00

  So when you go to a pool hall, that's a gambling hall. That's what they were. And so in New York City, at the turn of the century, the turn of the twentieth century, I think there was some insane number of pool halls just in New York City. I think it was over a thousand.

• 2:11:29Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 2:11:30Speaker 00

  Yep. And it was a lot of these guys, especially in the nineteen forties and guys coming home from the war, they didn't have families, and it was a bachelor culture. And these guys, they didn't want to be a part of society anymore. They just wanted to, you know-

• 2:11:45Speaker 02

  Unplug.

• 2:11:46Speaker 00

  Unplug and be a part of this world of men where men got together and they gambled and they smoked and they talked shit. And they-

• 2:11:54Speaker 02

  Sounds fun.

• 2:11:54Speaker 00

  Engaged in a lot of vice, you know, there's, and that was also when I was exposed to drugs, like a lot of drugs.

• 2:12:02Speaker 02

  How old were you at this time?

• 2:12:03Speaker 00

  Twenty-three. Yeah, about twenty-three, maybe twenty-four, when I really started playing a lot. And a lot of these guys, that was the first time I ever saw anybody do heroin. Yeah, there, it was a guy who was a world-class pool player. Uh, he had two nicknames. One of them was Buffalo Bill and the other one was Water Dog. And this guy, he was a world-class pool player who was also a heroin addict. And what he would do is he would go into the bathroom and everybody knew what was going on. He would go into the bathroom, lock the door, shoot up, and then he'd come out and he would sit on one of those billiard chairs. So he'd sit on like, it's like a big bar stool with like arms on it. He'd sit there like this.

• 2:12:43Speaker 02

  And just pass out?

• 2:12:44Speaker 00

  No, just, just zoned out for like twenty minutes, just high as fucking heroin. And then come back. And then when he's back, he was ready to play. And his eyes, his fucking pupils were huge. That's what I remember. It was like he had gerbil eyes, like shark eyes. And he couldn't miss. I mean, it was insane watching him play. He were playing, there's this table in Executive Billiards in White Plains, New York, where I used to play. Table one had these tiny little pockets, because it was the gambling table. So the table, the pockets were just, just shy of four inches. So you couldn't fit two balls in them. And they were very gaffy, meaning like the way the angles were cut, like, it was like, the way it was made was kind of haphazard. The way they wedged these things

• 2:13:28Speaker 00

  in there to make the pockets tighter. It wasn't perfect. Like, if you would hit the point a little bit, it would bobble out.

• 2:13:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:13:34Speaker 00

  It wasn't, it was very difficult to be accurate on this table. And this fucking guy couldn't miss. And he was playing for ten thousand dollars.

• 2:13:42Speaker 02

  Holy shit.

• 2:13:43Speaker 00

  And I was watching this guy play-

• 2:13:44Speaker 02

  That stresses me out.

• 2:13:44Speaker 00

  I was watching this guy play for ten thousand dollars and he, the other guy, the guy who was playing, this guy, George the Greek, who was a famous gambler. And George would be yelling at him, this motherfucker, he can't play without his shit. He's gotta take that fucking shit. So he's trying to distract him while he's playing. And this guy just, he just couldn't miss, just moving around the table, seeing all the angles. It's like, to him, the game was simple. And it was just when he was on heroin and he had to do heroin. And I ran into him years later. So I, I knew him in New York and then I moved to California. And this was like ninety-five, ninety-six. I was playing in this tournament in Bellflower, California. There's this legendary pool hall that used to exist there. There's

• 2:14:25Speaker 00

  still one in Sacramento, but there's one in Bellflower that was called Hard Times. And Hard Times was the mecca. When I was playing pool in New York, everybody was talking about Hard Times. Hard Times is where all the gambling was. And all the great players, the Filipino players would go there and they had this big Sunday tournament. And so I would go and play in the Sunday tournament, because anybody could play. I'd just get killed every week. But I'd go anyway, just to be able to play like world-class players and to watch and just have fun. And Water Dog was there. And I go, hey, man, what are you doing out here? And he's like, yeah, I took a trip. I took a trip to California, you know, just tried to get, get in some action. He goes, I want to get in the tournament, but I don't have any money. I go, I'll put you in. So it was only like, I don't remember it was, twenty bucks, twenty-five bucks to get in the tournament.

• 2:15:08Speaker 02

  Oh, no.

• 2:15:08Speaker 00

  And so I said, I'll put you in. He goes, oh, but I gotta go get my shit. And I was like, what? I go, well, go get your shit. He goes, I need a ride. I go, I'm not driving you. And he goes, come on. He goes, you gotta give me a ride. It's fine. Don't worry. And but I had a nice car at the time, my first nice car. I had a Toyota Supra Turbo.

• 2:15:25Speaker 02

  Nice.

• 2:15:26Speaker 00

  I loved it.

• 2:15:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:15:27Speaker 00

  I was like, I can't drive, they'll confiscate my car.

• 2:15:30Speaker 02

  Thought you were gonna say Highline.

• 2:15:33Speaker 00

  You can, you can get in real trouble. And he wouldn't, he wouldn't play. Like, or he, he wouldn't accept that I wouldn't take him there. So I put him in anyway. He played sober. He played terrible. He like, he was angry, like, wasn't playing good, he's like rotten, like, you could tell it was a mess. And you just, guy could have won the tournament. He was that good. This episode is brought to you by Quince. Putting together a good wardrobe isn't actually that hard. You just need the right pieces and that's where Quince comes in. Quince is all about creating quality, versatile clothing with premium materials, like a hundred percent Mongolian cashmere sweaters from just sixty dollars and organic cotton tees that are soft and breathable. Personally, I got a bunch of their stuff and I love it.

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• 2:18:01Speaker 02

  I grew up in Canada for a few years, like three years. And I remember reading, and I don't know who this is, and I hope Jamie can look it up for me, Jamie, if you don't mind. But there was a story of a goaltender that would play on drugs. And I want to say it was something crazy. Maybe it was something simple like cocaine. But he would take the drugs before a hockey match because it made the world look slower.

• 2:18:23Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 2:18:24Speaker 02

  And it made him a better goaltender.

• 2:18:26Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 2:18:27Speaker 02

  And he said, it was like, the puck became like catching a beach ball or something like that. Grant Fuhr, that's him.

• 2:18:33Speaker 00

  Edmonton Oilers and Hockey Hall of Fame goaltender. So he publicly admitted abusing cocaine for about seven years. Or using it correctly. Why is he abusing?

• 2:18:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:18:44Speaker 00

  He used it correctly. Rumors and reports circulated about cocaine use involving several members of the powerhouse Edmonton Oilers dynasty, including a well-known 1986 Sports Illustrated report, though Fuhr was the most high-profile player to face official league discipline regarding, well, probably because he admitted it.

• 2:19:01Speaker 02

  Right. I mean, I remember hearing him say like-

• 2:19:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, 1990, he admitted it publicly.

• 2:19:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I was a child then, so I'd have been eight at that time. But I was living in Canada where everything was hockey.

• 2:19:12Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 2:19:13Speaker 02

  Like, you were not, it was Hockey Night in Canada, it was Molson Le Bat Blue, and the whole, like, when I moved there, I was in second grade, and I only knew football. And the coach was like, "Yeah, we only play hockey here." And I was like, "I've never played hockey." He's like, "Well, you do now." And I was like, "Well, my mom, we're poor, we don't have any money." This is like in a-

• 2:19:31Speaker 00

  Oilers on cocaine, look at that.

• 2:19:32Speaker 02

  Look at the-

• 2:19:34Speaker 00

  Hockey news. Wow.

• 2:19:37Speaker 02

  Oh, shit. But all I did was watch hockey, they made you, and I told them, I was like, "We can't afford hockey gear." All of the kids on the team donated a hockey bag full of gear, and the coach brought it to my house. This was like a little town called Plum Cooley, Manitoba, like east of Winkler. Small town, 300 people. And they're like, "You play hockey now." And I started learning to skate and did that for like three years. And it was just, everything was hockey. There was no choice in it. It was, it was crazy.

• 2:20:03Speaker 00

  It's religion up there.

• 2:20:04Speaker 02

  It was total religion.

• 2:20:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:20:07Speaker 02

  And it was, I remember hearing that story about that guy, and it made me think of that when you were saying that. And that's strange, that's so strange that people get better when they're in these altered states.

• 2:20:16Speaker 00

  Well, Ariel Helwani posted something on Twitter today that someone sent me, because it was pretty interesting. And it was about this guy who's a goalie. See if you can find it. And he was talking about how interesting and introspective this guy is, and a fascinating thinker. And this guy's very intelligent, I don't know his name, I don't follow hockey unfortunately, but he was talking about how he has to be in an unconscious state to play a goalie. And that as, when he's in his conscious state, like when he's joking around and talking to people, and laughing, and having fun with his teammates, then he's conscious and he's thinking, he's thinking too much.

• 2:20:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:20:54Speaker 00

  So he has to achieve this unconscious state-

• 2:20:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:20:56Speaker 00

  -in order to just react as, to be a better goalie.

• 2:20:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:20:59Speaker 00

  But it was, see if you can find it.

• 2:21:00Speaker 02

  Like a flow state almost.

• 2:21:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, and the way he described it was really interesting, because I was like, "I get that, I understand what he's saying." Because you get that with everything, like, "I cannot talk and play pool. If I talk and play pool, I'll play like shit." Like, I'm talking to my buddies and having fun, I get frustrated, I'm like, "I gotta stop talking." Because if I'm talking, I can't. Like, listen, yeah, this is the guy, listen to this.

• 2:21:19Speaker 05

  About 34 saves in your night, just how you felt and what you saw as you looked out from your crease. Yes, I felt nothing. The, the problem with me is that I have a lot of fun playing, but when I start having too much fun, it makes me into, from an unconscious goalie to a conscious goalie. And my conscious brain is really bad at playing goalie. So I have to like let my unconscious brain do the work, because it reacts a lot quicker. When I'm having too much fun, and I'm smiling, and I'm talking to everybody, and I'm hanging out, what happens is that shifts me into more conscious brain goalie. And then I can't react in time, and then I'm slow, I'm behind the play, and then I give up seven goals, you know?

• 2:22:02Speaker 05

  But today it was just unconscious, like, don't think about anything, you know, if you ask me how I made a save, I'd be like, "I have no idea, just my unconscious brain does it." And that's what you work and practice for, you know? Well, you felt nothing during the game, but I wonder what you felt like after, when you're doing the three stars and you hear the crowd and- When the buzzer went, that's when it's like, "Okay, now you can let it all go." So you get a huge rush of like dopamine, and serotonin, and adrenaline, and just like goosebumps. It's the best feeling in the world, it's like the biggest reason why I love to play. And yeah, then you can just let it all out. "Now I can smile and enjoy myself." But yeah, like TV timeouts in between period, I'm like, "Don't smile, don't talk to anyone, just focus on your game, let your unconscious brain do it." And it was great. It worked.

• 2:22:43Speaker 00

  What is this guy's name, Jamie? Does it say? And Ariel's, uh- Oh, I don't know. Okay.

• 2:22:49Speaker 02

  I don't follow hockey anymore either.

• 2:22:52Speaker 00

  But it's the same as you were talking about with Archie when you're shooting a deer, right?

• 2:22:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:22:57Speaker 00

  Like, you're going through this process, you're thinking, you're going through it, but it's like, you're just trying to stay focused, then after it's over, you're like, "Ohhh."

• 2:23:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:23:03Speaker 00

  Now you can be conscious and aware of this moment, like, "Wow, this is insane."

• 2:23:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a flow state.

• 2:23:07Speaker 05

  Devon Cooley?

• 2:23:08Speaker 00

  Devon Cooley. Amazing.

• 2:23:10Speaker 02

  The only other place that I ever experienced that was in the military. Like, we would plan for six months for an operation and do all this intelligence gathering going into an operation where blood and treasures are on the line. One of the operations-

• 2:23:22Speaker 00

  Blood and treasure, I like how you put that.

• 2:23:23Speaker 02

  Well, that's always the stake, when I was collecting intelligence, those were always the stakes that I kept foremost in my mind, is that, "Collect this like blood and treasures on the line." Like, our country's money and the taxpayer that has to labor every day to pay these fucking taxes, and the blood of the people, your brothers that you love, are the ones that are going into this. Because I was, like I said before, I'm not the long-tabber, I'm not the cool guy, I was the nerd for the cool guys. So I treated it like it was, like the, like the outcome of the entire operation depended on me, is always what went to my brain. That was the only way that I went into this. And if I wasn't totally locked in, but when the, when I would be on a hill, or in a helicopter,

• 2:24:07Speaker 02

  or in a Humvee, watching an operation go down based off of my intelligence work, I would get into that same flow state I get with bow hunting. Bow hunting, when I was retiring from the military, I was so stressed out, because I had no idea what I was gonna do that was gonna replicate, replicate this experience. I was like, "Where am I gonna get this flow state from?" And it dawned on me while I was in the military that helping hunters in the same way solve targeting problems as helping, you know, JSOC guys, or Rangers, or, or Green Army guys, that sense of completion that I would get at the end, like when bad guys were dead or arrested, or, you know, a terrorist operation was sunk, based off of all that work, was just like the most addictive feeling in the, is a very addictive feeling.

• 2:24:51Speaker 02

  And that flow state that I would get into when I was doing work that was particularly meaningful is such a hard thing to replicate. It's like a place you have to find yourself in, it's not a place you can put yourself in.

• 2:25:02Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 2:25:03Speaker 02

  You have to get there, like, start doing the work, start putting things together, start thinking.

• 2:25:06Speaker 00

  Here is, what do we got here, Jamie?

• 2:25:08Speaker 01

  This is this thing, a friend of mine taught me this a long time ago, I don't, I think he probably learned it in college somewhere, but-

• 2:25:12Speaker 00

  Oh, I've seen this, yes.

• 2:25:13Speaker 01

  Four stages of competence.

• 2:25:14Speaker 00

  Yes, unconscious incompetence, conscious incompetence, unconscious competence, and conscious completion, competence.

• 2:25:24Speaker 01

  No, no, it's unconscious competence is the last one.

• 2:25:26Speaker 00

  The last one.

• 2:25:27Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:25:28Speaker 00

  So the idea is that you start from ignorance, and we're all aware of a lack of knowledge of skill exists, and then you go into conscious incompetence, where aware that a lack of knowledge and a skill exists, we're unaware initially, and then you go to, we are able to use the new skill with effort, so that's conscious competence, and then mastery, we're able to use the skill easily without effort.

• 2:25:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, it gets integrated into-

• 2:25:56Speaker 00

  And then it starts all over again when you learn something new. Yeah, and that's why people are addicted to learning things new.

• 2:26:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:26:02Speaker 00

  From the beginning, beginner stage is very important, very, very good for the mind, and becoming a beginner at new things, I think, is one of the best things a person can do. Especially a new difficult thing like bow hunting, or like jiu-jitsu, or like golf, or like any, or yoga, anything that's hard to do. Like, learning it in the beginning, it's very exciting and very good for the mind. And I think one of the things that happens to people is they stop doing that, and then their brain atrophies.

• 2:26:28Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:26:29Speaker 00

  Their brain atrophies the same way your muscles atrophy when you no longer use it.

• 2:26:32Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:26:33Speaker 00

  And that skill of, or the, the experience, rather, of learning a new skill, learning, learning a new world, a new universe that you are now engrossed in, very, very beneficial to people.

• 2:26:45Speaker 02

  It's so good for your ego, too.

• 2:26:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:26:47Speaker 02

  Just, I, the thing, as I get better at anything, whether it's building apps, military operations, my limited time in doing things like jiu-jitsu, like I just rejoined, or was trying, attempting to rejoin a gym, but I'm gonna find a different one.

• 2:27:02Speaker 02

  Just knowing, there's a thing in life, like when I, when you get really good at something, you actually start to learn how much you don't know.

• 2:27:11Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:27:11Speaker 02

  It's like you've just uncovered a new world of like, holy shit, I really don't know anything. I thought I was getting towards the top and this was a false mountain. And now the big, like, I looked at a mountain, I started to climb, I got to the top and I'm like, oh shit, this isn't even the mountain I was looking at. That's over there.

• 2:27:25Speaker 00

  Dennis McKenna had a great expression about this. He said, and I'm gonna fuck this up, but it's essentially, I'm paraphrasing it, that as you expand the bonfire of knowledge, it highlights the surface area of ignorance.

• 2:27:45Speaker 02

  That's pretty good.

• 2:27:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, and that the more you learn and the more it expands this, this understanding that you have of the world you live in, the more it highlights how much you don't know. And that's why people that pretend they know it all are so fucking dangerous. As the bonfire of knowledge grows brighter, the more the darkness is revealed to our startled eyes. That's Terrence, I think his brother was the original, I think that's, someone's paraphrasing that. I think they're attributing that to Terrence when it's Dennis. I think, cause I'm pretty, I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Terrence is quoting Dennis.

• 2:28:22Speaker 00

  Either way, both brilliant guys.

• 2:28:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's like the, it's like the yin yang thing, like have one foot in the competence of what you've learned and then another foot in the unconscious incompetence of what you don't know or what you know you don't know. And it's like, one of those things too, is like, as you begin to learn these things, you realize, I almost become ashamed when I see how great I can be in certain, like how good, one of the things, my grandmother taught me all of these pearls of wisdom that I come back to now, because there's a significant amount of time where I was being raised by my grandparents. My grandmother used to say, be good for goodness sakes. And as a kid, I was always like, whatever grandma.

• 2:28:59Speaker 00

  Isn't that like Santa Claus? Bad to be good?

• 2:29:02Speaker 02

  I think it's from that song, I think that's right, I think that's right. But she would always say, like, when I was fucking up, she like, be good for goodness sakes, like, just be good. And I threw that away, but she like, put a seed. I think Andy said, I put that can of food on the, in the pantry of my mind, to come back to it later. Cause now in my adulthood, it's like, I'm always trying to, you know, be good, but also for no reward in itself. Like, one of the things, the funny story I always tell is when my wife and kids, when I go to poison my children at McDonald's every once in a while, I always pay for the vehicle behind me. So we'll go through and, you know, we have this thing and my kids are always like, looking at the vehicle behind, because I always tell the person at McDonald's, like, I'm paying for the person behind me.

• 2:29:47Speaker 02

  I do this in other places in my life, much more meaningfully, but this is a good example. And this one time, the lady's like, are you sure you wanna pay for the people behind you? And like, my wife looks at me and she's like, you know, what's the problem? And she's like, it's gonna be like a hundred and seventy bucks or something. And I was like, well, it's not a principle if I don't do it right now, so I'm gonna pay for them. And then as we're pulling away, this is like, big group of like, you know, a bunch of kids just going nuts that their food was paid for. But I would often engage in those types of things because it made me feel good. And that's probably the wrong reason to be gracious. And as I've gotten older.

• 2:30:23Speaker 00

  Why is it bad to feel good, though? You're doing a good thing and you feel good doing a good thing.

• 2:30:28Speaker 02

  Something self-centric about it.

• 2:30:29Speaker 00

  A little bit. I say that all the time, that there's something selfish about being generous.

• 2:30:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, and so now I try to do it with no expectation that the person will ever know who did it. And my hope is that they'll walk around saying they're angels in the world, or good people in the world that, like, I'll never know who this person is. So now I try to do big, meaningful things in that way, but that was the pearl that my grandmother dropped me, was be good for goodness sakes. Like, I'm just being good for goodness sakes. I'm not doing it because it's gonna inflate my ego, I'm not doing it because I'm gonna go tell people what I've done. Like, I'll never tell people these things, I'll use the McDonald's analogy because it's an easy one, that's not like, I'm not this benevolent guy. But trying to do it in that way, it's just, you know, these old ways of doing things and these old sayings that people have, start to come full circle, then you realize that

• 2:31:15Speaker 02

  there's a ton of frickin' profundity in these things, that we can leverage and try to make ourselves better people by doing it.

• 2:31:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's interesting, that idea that there's knowledge that's in us that we don't know. And that we've been given, whether, I guess it's through genetics, or for lack of a better term, or through whatever, soul transmission. But you know, if you were that, there's a young Chinese kid who did an experiment with moths. And he ran this experiment with moths in the caterpillar stage, and he found out that through the transformation from a moth to a caterpillar, you know, they essentially become like mush, and then reemerge as a caterpillar once they go into the cocoon.

• 2:32:06Speaker 00

  Like, this is like, very intense metabolic transformation, where their body's like, broken down to this mush, and then becomes a butterfly. That, or a moth, that this knowledge is transmitted through that process. And not just that, but it's also transmitted to their offspring, somehow or another. And he's proven this.

• 2:32:28Speaker 02

  Epigenetics, I think it's called.

• 2:32:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, but this kid proved this, like, physically with these animals, with these insects. See if we can find that.

• 2:32:36Speaker 01

  I've only found a video saying it, and they don't have a link on that.

• 2:32:40Speaker 00

  It has something to do with lavender, they used a scent, and the scent, when they encountered the scent, they, they developed this like, they, they had something where there was like a vibration, and when they encountered the scent, there was an uncomfortable vibration they experienced, so they avoided that scent. And they, he could prove that the moths had trans, that it had gone from the caterpillar stage and the moth still retained that memory, and then also, it had been transmitted to their offspring.

• 2:33:12Speaker 02

  I believe B.F. Skinner also did this with rats.

• 2:33:14Speaker 00

  Hmm, right, with mazes, right?

• 2:33:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, and with the smell of cats.

• 2:33:18Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:33:18Speaker 02

  Something along those lines.

• 2:33:19Speaker 00

  Well, the rat thing's really interesting too, because this puts it, right, Skinner, right? This also puts it into the, the principle of morphic resonance. You know, like, the idea is that you're, so this is one, one of the things they've shown, is that if you teach rats on the east coast how to navigate a maze, rats on the west coast can navigate that maze quicker.

• 2:33:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:33:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, this is Rupert Sheldrake's work.

• 2:33:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, strange.

• 2:33:45Speaker 00

  Very weird stuff, because I think we're very, we have this narrow-minded perception of what knowledge is, and what information is, and where it is, and where it's coming from. It's like that thing that you said, when you see someone, you get the ick.

• 2:34:00Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:34:00Speaker 00

  Like, I don't know what you're getting. Like, maybe you're getting, there's, maybe it's pattern recognition, maybe it's not, maybe there's like a, there's a sense that we have that's undefined.

• 2:34:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:34:12Speaker 00

  That you can't put a ruler to, or you can't put on a scale, but there's something there, that we're not totally aware of, that allows us to stay safe, and has been inside of us forever.

• 2:34:22Speaker 02

  I think it's like a framing problem, because, like, the Greeks would say, the spirit of war. And I don't think they meant like a flying demon or something, or like, you know, they didn't mean that there's this god of war and he's a physical entity. I think they mean, this is a persistent thing across all classes of humans, that no matter who they are, this is inside of them, and so, it's like a god to us. It's a god, it's a god because it rules us, we don't, it doesn't have, we don't have it, it has us.

• 2:34:54Speaker 00

  Well, it's that spirit that comes out, what I was talking about with protests.

• 2:34:56Speaker 02

  Yes, exactly.

• 2:34:57Speaker 00

  Yeah. And so, there's the mob mentality thing, it's this thing that happens to us.

• 2:35:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, and so, if, that's why I say, I don't make a lot of distinction between god, the collective unconscious, or transcendent reality. It's this abyss of unknowing, that we are fortunate to tap into every once in a while, and pull something out of it. And, like, it was interesting, I watched your interview with J.D. Vance, and you guys were talking about the difference between, like, what he conceptualizes as a demon, and what you conceptualize as an alien. And I just think that was a mismatch impedance. I think you guys could be talking about the same thing, but you're using a regionally accepted formal lexicon to describe it, but you're, but you could be saying the same thing. So.

• 2:35:44Speaker 00

  Perhaps, but I had a purpose to why I was questioning him on that.

• 2:35:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:35:48Speaker 00

  My purpose is that, my perception was that he was signaling to a certain group of very religious voters.

• 2:35:56Speaker 02

  Yes, I know.

• 2:35:57Speaker 00

  You know what I mean?

• 2:35:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, and I know, that's why I was so, I don't know if I messaged you about this or not, I believe I did, but it blew my mind that people were talking shit that you had him on. It's like, why wouldn't you want the vice president on? Like, there are a bunch of comments like, oh, so and so's here, big freaking deal, blah blah blah. I was like, look, we're in a hot war, and there's a lot of shit going on in the world, and even if Joe's been told he can't ask about certain things, like you talked about with Kamala, I still want the guy talking for three hours.

• 2:36:25Speaker 00

  I didn't get any requests from him about not talking about things.

• 2:36:29Speaker 02

  I'm just saying, even if that happened, I still want those people talking for three hours, because you can't sit for three hours and talk, and not reveal yourself.

• 2:36:36Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:36:36Speaker 02

  Like, I mean, things doth protest too much. Like, you will talk about the things that are going on, even if you don't want to, just get the person talking. And that's what I think is the beauty of this podcast, for a myriad reasons. One of them is, everyone can come on here and just talk, and people will reveal themselves in those three hours. You will get to the nexus of who someone is. Um, over that three hours. And that's why I want Bernie on here, or I want JD on here. I want Trump on here, Kamala. And when someone won't come on to the biggest podcast in the world, who's running for high office, then we should dispatch with that person. And it wouldn't matter if it was this podcast or another one. The biggest, if you can't sit there and talk about your principles and your organizing,

• 2:37:22Speaker 02

  criteria of how you, the way you metabolize the world and why you think you're the one who's fit to change it. If you can't talk extemporaneously about that, I don't want you in a high office. Because you're not revealing yourself.

• 2:37:35Speaker 00

  Right. You're not revealing yourself. You're probably a construct.

• 2:37:37Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:37:38Speaker 00

  You're probably, you probably have this thing that you're promoting. This, this image that you're pursuing and that you're, you're trying to get the general public to accept. That's not totally real.

• 2:37:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. This isn't Fox News for 15 minutes where you get to read the talking points.

• 2:37:54Speaker 00

  Right. That's, that's the issue with those things. This is just not enough of an understanding of who that person is. And in a long form podcast, you do get that understanding. I get why people have that sense. You shouldn't platform people. I think that instinct is incorrect.

• 2:38:10Speaker 02

  If I didn't like someone, I want them platformed.

• 2:38:12Speaker 00

  No, but not only that, that you already know them. Like they're already out there. You're not going to make them more popular. They are who they are.

• 2:38:19Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:38:20Speaker 00

  But like, there's certain times, like the Trump interview was a good one. Where you never got a chance to see that guy talk that way. And, and in really a non combative situation, because almost all media that he did is either kissing his ass, like on Fox News, or trying to take everything he said out of context.

• 2:38:41Speaker 02

  It was binary.

• 2:38:41Speaker 00

  Yeah. And, you know, and you get a chance to see someone communicate for a long period of time.

• 2:38:48Speaker 02

  I got so much shit about Trump after the podcast with you, when I gave him like a C plus or something.

• 2:38:53Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 2:38:54Speaker 02

  That was a majority of my messages.

• 2:38:56Speaker 00

  Were they mad or?

• 2:38:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. You don't understand Trump and what he's doing. There's 4D chess here and you're not getting it.

• 2:39:00Speaker 00

  Oh, the 4D chess one is great.

• 2:39:02Speaker 02

  And I was like, okay, um, please elucidate me on what's going on right now because I'm not getting it. But because I was for him in the beginning, and then when everything started going topsy, topsy turvy, and I wasn't able to, you know, rationally predict what the next step was going to be. Now I'm the bad guy. It's like, look, I just wanted like these five things and I'm not getting them. I'm getting one of them.

• 2:39:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:39:24Speaker 02

  Uh, can we have a discussion about the other four? Um, and so just, it's like you said, people aren't going to get changed.

• 2:39:33Speaker 02

  There's no one who's going to listen to your podcast with Kamala and say, you know what? I was a right wing guy, you know, before this podcast, but now I think I might vote for Kamala.

• 2:39:41Speaker 00

  But the thing is, there are a bunch of people that she could have reached that are in the middle.

• 2:39:45Speaker 02

  For sure. Yes.

• 2:39:46Speaker 00

  And that's where I think there was a missed opportunity. And I think a lot of people agree to that.

• 2:39:51Speaker 02

  Or who want to know more about her. Like, the one thing I'll say about, I'll say a good thing about Trump. I've met him a few times. I was on stage with him in North Carolina. He's really good at like summing one up and someone up, summing someone up quickly. Like when I first met him, I like shook his hand. He's like, so you're like the AI guy? You're the AI guy? Could you AI? And I was like, uh, well, yeah, I mean, I was a soldier in the military. I kind of learned it while I was there. And he's like, soldier, I could see you being central casting. AI, I don't think so. And that was our conversation. And I was like, this guy's like, he just summed me up in like a second, like, uh, cause I, you know, I'm more soldier than I am that. And, uh, he said some other things, but that was about it. And I just stood behind him on stage for a couple of hours.

• 2:40:36Speaker 02

  But, um, uh, you know, it's, he's got a ability, he's got this comedic timing, which I think is like unheard of. Pretty good. Um, but, uh, there's other things I just disagree with and that's, that's a free world. I get to disagree.

• 2:40:51Speaker 00

  It's very clear that, um, you don't have ultimate power as a president.

• 2:40:56Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:40:57Speaker 00

  You can't just do things.

• 2:40:58Speaker 02

  And thank God for it.

• 2:40:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, that's what the whole process is supposed to be about. That's, that's the reason why we have Congress and the Senate. It's the reason why all that stuff exists.

• 2:41:10Speaker 02

  What do you think, what do you, are you think we're looking at Gavin Newsom?

• 2:41:13Speaker 00

  No.

• 2:41:14Speaker 02

  And?

• 2:41:14Speaker 00

  I don't think so.

• 2:41:15Speaker 02

  Or someone like that?

• 2:41:16Speaker 00

  I don't, I think he's too much of a liability. I don't think they're gonna, there's, there's too much going on with them. There's, I mean, unless they were severely desperate. I think it's probably going to be someone who's not tainted in the public eye. Um, someone, you know, because we buy narrative so quickly. We, we hated, or I don't say we. A lot of people hated Kamala Harris as a vice president, and then all of a sudden she was our savior.

• 2:41:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:41:40Speaker 00

  And they did that quickly.

• 2:41:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:41:41Speaker 00

  You know, there's, there's a way that they can promote things, especially now through bots and social media. Social media is infested with nonsense.

• 2:41:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:41:51Speaker 00

  It's infested with bots. It's infested with completely fake stories. There's so many stories that I read, like national news stories that are absolutely fake on X. And that people just put up there. And I think they're trying to discourage that somehow.

• 2:42:07Speaker 00

  I think, you know, like you, you don't get as much money from, because there's things like you get money from posting on X. I don't, but some people do. Like you, you sign up and it's people that make their living.

• 2:42:19Speaker 02

  I knew they had it on Facebook.

• 2:42:20Speaker 00

  Oh yeah, they have it on X. Yeah.

• 2:42:22Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:42:22Speaker 00

  People make their living with engagement.

• 2:42:25Speaker 02

  But the bots are a real thing. Um, I can speak personally to that. Like I've pulled the string on the bot stuff, looking at how they get funded, where they're ran out of the people that are behind them, why they do them, how they do them. Um, and it's such a real thing, um, to a degree that people just don't understand how they're being manipulated by these things.

• 2:42:43Speaker 00

  It's enormous.

• 2:42:44Speaker 02

  It's, it's an enormous market, billions. And it's, it's funded in ways that I think would surprise people. Um, and thank God for things like data links, leaks and things like it, um, where we can get to this information. Or just the fact that there's campaign finance laws and that money has to be routed and accounted for and these types of things. So that people can pull the string on it and understand how things are being manipulated in the public eye.

• 2:43:10Speaker 00

  Illegal. It really should be. I, I am all for people being able to express their opinions, but it should be an individual's opinions or the opinions of an individual that represents an organization. If you're a spokesperson for an organization, you want to tweet something, okay, no problem with that. But I think that organized campaigns where, you know, let's say in particular, like, um, there's some sort of big social issue, some, some, some, some thing that's going on in the world, or some thing that involves our civilization, our culture. And then you have either a foreign country, or you have an intelligence agency, or you have a corporation that's funding, uh, this propaganda narrative, this fake viewpoint, and making it look like people are in lockstep with this.

• 2:43:55Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:43:55Speaker 00

  And then you've got a lot of people that if that, whatever that narrative is, is attached to the ideology they identify with, whether it's left wing or right wing, then those people will start parroting those points.

• 2:44:07Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:44:07Speaker 00

  And you'll see it. You see this like sheep-like behavior with people. And it has a tremendous effect on how we view things as a culture. And I think it should be illegal. I think you should have to be a person, post for yourself.

• 2:44:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. Even if you post, even if you're not named, you should have to authenticate some way. If you're going to enter the zeitgeist of public, any of these types of things. Because, I mean, the, the other thing about Facebook and social media and these other things that people don't realize is they can feed you the narrative and put it on the vector that helps you metabolize it in the best way. In other words, if a public person is running for office and you might only agree with 10% of what this public person thinks, there are ways to manipulate the algorithm. So you're only fed that 10%.

• 2:44:52Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:44:53Speaker 02

  So you only understand that you're only getting what you agree with, with this particular politician. And there might be 10 other things you don't agree with, that you're not going to see unless you pull the thread yourself. And unfortunately, just a lot of people don't pull the thread themselves because they're busy. They have to make money. They have families. And so they're only getting one side of the story. Um, and then it's being monetized, which is also really gross. It's just super dangerous. It's super dangerous.

• 2:45:17Speaker 00

  But it's so, super dangerous and it's super easy to manipulate us. It's, it's like, there's never been a better time to use propaganda on a society than today.

• 2:45:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I watched the ways I've been in the past, how it's happened to me. So it's like, I'm not immune to this, even though I understand a lot of it and how it's happening.

• 2:45:34Speaker 00

  None of us are. And you're certainly not immune to your algorithm. Your algorithm in the echo chamber that you exist in, they just constantly bombard you with one-sided opinions.

• 2:45:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:45:43Speaker 00

  Yeah. It's, it's a weird time in terms of truth and, you know, and everyone has to figure out what's the best way for them to engage with that. Uh, my, the way that I do it, I only look at things that people send me. Someone has to send me something interesting. I'm not seeking anything out anymore. It's just too much. It's too negative.

• 2:46:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. And you'll drown in it.

• 2:46:03Speaker 00

  You'll drown in it. And it also takes away from your time. It's, uh, it's such a time suck and such an attention suck and it will wasted, it's wasted energy. And I, I always try to explain it to people in terms of, uh, I try to look at my attention and my energy of the day as units.

• 2:46:22Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:46:22Speaker 00

  I have a hundred units. And if I spend 30 of those units concentrating on nonsense and horseshit, I've wasted 30 units. Very precious units. It's only a certain amount of days in a year and a certain amount of years in your life.

• 2:46:35Speaker 02

  I was going to say that about gambling. The reason I don't like gambling is because if I throw down a hundred dollars, that's an hour of my time. And it wakes me worried. Like I only have so much time. I'm like, I'm, I'm throwing an hour away.

• 2:46:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:46:49Speaker 02

  I just threw an hour to this casino.

• 2:46:51Speaker 00

  I think I would gamble on fights if I wasn't involved in the UFC. I think I would do that because I think I'm pretty good at it.

• 2:46:56Speaker 02

  It gets you into the fight.

• 2:46:57Speaker 00

  Yeah. A hundred percent. If you've got money on Gagey and he starts to knock down Ilya Topor, you're like, oh shit.

• 2:47:02Speaker 02

  I was doing cartwheels in my living room.

• 2:47:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:47:04Speaker 02

  But, um, it, it, I just think about things as time. And so when I had that three grand, I'm like, well, this is what's would take me. I think of my personal time, I bill it about a hundred bucks an hour. It's about how I look at my personal time. So that's the, that's time I can't get back, or I've just gained a bunch of time by getting that 3,000 bucks. So I get nervous when I think about getting rid of it. Like I don't like to spend like that. I want to be able to pull the thread. And you said it is units. I would say money, units, it doesn't matter. Because time ultimately in the final analysis, the only thing we can't make more of.

• 2:47:33Speaker 00

  Right. And I think to live a better life, use your time wisely. And that is an old, age-old expression.

• 2:47:40Speaker 02

  Another one of those pearls of wisdom that seems to come back.

• 2:47:43Speaker 00

  Use your time wisely.

• 2:47:44Speaker 02

  Only so much of it.

• 2:47:45Speaker 00

  Yeah. It's so finite. I mean, it's so funny when I, I have days where I do nothing on purpose, where I just, I'm burnt out. I've done too much. And I just like to veg date. I just like to hang out in front of the TV and watch cool shit. I just want to be entertained.

• 2:48:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:48:01Speaker 00

  But I'm amazed at how much time flies by. It was like, sometimes I'll, I'll be watching just YouTube documentaries and it's five hours later. I'm like, fuck.

• 2:48:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. Covid feels like yesterday.

• 2:48:12Speaker 00

  Right. It does.

• 2:48:13Speaker 02

  It does.

• 2:48:14Speaker 00

  It does. It does. It really does. It's, it's nuts. It's nuts. We live in a very unique moment in history and I think about to become even more unique.

• 2:48:26Speaker 02

  In which ways?

• 2:48:27Speaker 00

  With AI.

• 2:48:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:48:29Speaker 00

  I think the way AI is going to transform society is going to be unlike anything that's ever happened before.

• 2:48:36Speaker 02

  How do you think it's going to transform society?

• 2:48:38Speaker 00

  Well, I think jobs are going to be eliminated. That's a big one.

• 2:48:41Speaker 02

  Eliminated?

• 2:48:42Speaker 00

  Eliminated. I think there's going to be no use for people for a lot of things that people do right now.

• 2:48:46Speaker 02

  What time scale are we talking?

• 2:48:48Speaker 00

  10 years maximum.

• 2:48:49Speaker 02

  Maximum?

• 2:48:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, maximum. In 10 years, the world's going to be unrecognizable. That's what I think.

• 2:48:54Speaker 02

  So, how do you feel? You think this will happen? You think we're on that course already?

• 2:49:02Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 2:49:02Speaker 02

  And that it, that all jobs will be subdued?

• 2:49:07Speaker 00

  No, not all jobs. I think creative endeavors are always going to exist. There's always going to be, human beings are always going to have the need for human connection. We're always going to want to see live sports. We're always going to see, want to see live music. Live comedy is always going to exist. I think going to the movies is a great, like, sort of a community experience. I used to love going to comedy movies. Comedy movies when they used to make them.

• 2:49:30Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:49:31Speaker 00

  Fucking.

• 2:49:31Speaker 02

  Garbage.

• 2:49:32Speaker 00

  Woke killed comedy movies.

• 2:49:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:49:34Speaker 00

  We used to be able to go and you're laughing really hard with a whole group of people that you don't know. Just like going to a comedy club. It's very similar in a lot of ways.

• 2:49:42Speaker 02

  I was telling my wife about your comedy club and I said, it's the closest thing to 1996 that I can get to. And she's like, well, what are you talking about? I'm like, well, you lock your phone away, you go in there, there's no worry about someone's recording something. People get to go on stage and talk shit and you're just, you just feel like you're back in a place, like no one's sitting there scrolling. I hate watching like people at dinner and both of them are scrolling their phones.

• 2:50:06Speaker 00

  I know.

• 2:50:07Speaker 02

  And you don't see any of that. And it's just shit talking and fun and you're with your buddies and you're laughing and it's just a great experience. And so I have a theory about AI with, when it comes to what you just talked about. So I think we're in agreement in at least one thing. And I think what's gonna, I think what's gonna happen is if you look at like the number one movie in 2020 or 2019 was like Avengers Endgame or Avengers Infinity War, those two movies. Highly digitized, tons of CGI, everything's getting done in front of a green screen. And it made, you know, $2 billion or over a billion. I don't remember exactly what the number was. And then you look at this

• 2:50:48Speaker 02

  last year and the biggest movie per dollar spent was Obsession, which was made by a YouTube creator who was doing stuff out of his basement a few years earlier. So I think your, to your point about people wanting genuine human interaction, my theory as it pertains to AI is AI will become ubiquitous in certain ways. It will, it will eventually, fortunately or unfortunately, run massive parts of the economy. It will run a lot of things, but what, but what will happen with, people will get sick. And in a few years, your daughters are going to be able to send you an Avengers movie where it's you, Ari, Shane.

• 2:51:29Speaker 00

  Right now, they can do that?

• 2:51:30Speaker 02

  Well, I'm saying like a, with a prompt, they'll make a two hour movie and it'll just be the Avengers movie and it will look indistinguishable from another movie. And you'll get sick of that quick. And then people, I think things like regional theater houses, my wife and I's favorite thing to do is go to the Nutcracker at Christmas time in DC at the National Theater. Those things will start springing up and they'll be easier to spring up because to start a business, to start an LLC, if you have a novel idea, you're looking at $30,000 to $100,000 of negotiating red tape and government in order to start a business. AI is going to make that super easy. And I think in a few years, we're going to see theaters. I think we're going to see, I agree with Elon in that prices are going

• 2:52:14Speaker 02

  to get way cheaper. To make something production scale wise, Amazon's going to be, you'll be able to buy a coffee table for a dollar, $2, $3. I think there will be a large deflationary effect where products are going to get cheaper and the quality of life will go up because more people will be able to buy cheaper things. And if you're living on $10,000 a year, you're going to be able to live really well in the coming years because of AI. But because people will be able to set up businesses easier, like craft tables, handmade things, people setting up businesses, it will allow a rejuvenation of creative endeavors. And people with money or people who are making money in the middle income and above, middle class income and

• 2:52:55Speaker 02

  above, will yearn for handmade things. And because it's so easy to start these businesses, we're going to, it's the same thing with people who have money now. All of my friends who have money now have classic cars. A lot of them have lots of classic cars. They have handmade things, handmade furniture, all of these things. They're, I think the market is going to get flooded because people are going to be so sick of highly stylized AI making everything look awesome. I think it's much more likely that in 10 years, if you and your wife and myself and my wife are going to go out, we're going to go to a regional theater house and watch Hamlet or some play or something like that. Yes, that will start with people with more money, but as more theater houses pop up and more creative endeavors, I think people are going to be able to get creatively back into things. And AI, in my

• 2:53:39Speaker 02

  estimation, will exist as like a utility in your house. They're trying to not do that in ways that we've talked about, but a good output for AI is it becomes a water heater in your house. You have your own personal GPU that you do your own training or your own things on, or it does your bills for you. It takes care of the doldrums of life and it can do all of these things for you. It's ran locally. It's not something that you go to OpenAI for, or you go to a large company, name your large AI company. A good output from AI would be, we have these open weighted systems that are available to everyone. You buy your GPUs. It goes in your basement. Your data never leaves your home. You're

• 2:54:20Speaker 02

  not out training some other company's AI. It all gets done regionally and it handles your bills for you. It does your bank account. It does all of these things.

• 2:54:28Speaker 00

  Very rose colored glasses.

• 2:54:29Speaker 02

  It is. It is.

• 2:54:30Speaker 00

  But I see where they're, the human thing, like human created stuff is going to be more valuable.

• 2:54:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:54:37Speaker 00

  That's the best possible best case scenario.

• 2:54:40Speaker 02

  And people will be able to afford things. If you're not making a lot of money and you don't have a lot of economic output, you're going to be able to live very well, I think.

• 2:54:47Speaker 00

  Well, we'll see if we don't get killed by the robots.

• 2:54:50Speaker 02

  If we don't get killed by the robots. I mean, I just, I don't see a path to sentience with AI in its current form today. I guess is my big.

• 2:54:57Speaker 00

  That's another conversation that we're going to have to have. We have more time.

• 2:55:01Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:55:02Speaker 00

  That's a long one.

• 2:55:03Speaker 02

  I didn't think there'd be a second time. So now I believe you when you say that there's a third time.

• 2:55:07Speaker 00

  100%. Let's definitely do it again.

• 2:55:08Speaker 02

  I really appreciate you having me here.

• 2:55:10Speaker 00

  My pleasure, brother. It's always great to talk to you. You're a fascinating guy.

• 2:55:12Speaker 02

  If I can do the obligatory, so Spartan Forge, my company, we've released two Hunt Plus updates, tons of UI updates, UX, tons of features. We're about to release that thermal thing that I just talked about before. We've got CarPlay. We've done a lot of things. We've grown a ton. And there's so, too many features for me to go into there, but there's, we just produced a film on YouTube about an engineer in our company who's also a gunsmith called Old Soul. We're doing a third one about my cabin that I purchased back and having my family out there. And we're going to have some veterans out there and raise some money.

• 2:55:50Speaker 00

  Spartan Forge YouTube channel?

• 2:55:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, on the Spartan Forge YouTube channel. And so we're going to do one about my dad's cabin coming up here. And we've got some great companies. Hoyt is sponsoring it. VPA Archery, which, have you shot VPA's before?

• 2:56:01Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 2:56:01Speaker 02

  If you haven't, oh, you have?

• 2:56:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:56:03Speaker 02

  Best broadhead, I love those broadheads.

• 2:56:05Speaker 00

  That's the, they make the archery country broadhead.

• 2:56:07Speaker 02

  Yes. Oh, my God, dude. I've been aiming for shoulder blades with those things on does.

• 2:56:12Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:56:13Speaker 02

  And bucks, because you can just double shoulder blade an animal and drop it.

• 2:56:16Speaker 00

  It's a great broadhead.

• 2:56:16Speaker 02

  It's a great broadhead. So VPA, Azio Camo is another one. And my buddy Joe is, runs Azio Camo. These companies are sponsoring us to produce these films. And we're going to do a coffee table book with it. But we're trying to get into reminding people why we hunt and why we're out here doing these crazy things. And it's not about bloodlust or killing. It's about the joy of having a backstrap with your kids at the table. Like, you know, up until we run out of deer meat, most of my kids has died as deer meat. And it's about that coming of age and getting back to our roots and engaging that circuitry that we talked about before. And as paradoxical as it sounds, I'm hoping to help people do that through an application. But yeah, we're producing a lot of stuff and it's also just reminding

• 2:57:01Speaker 02

  hunters why we hunt. It's not just about the big racks and the bloodlust. It's about food and tribe and.

• 2:57:08Speaker 00

  Beautiful.

• 2:57:08Speaker 02

  Shared heritage. So, thank you again.

• 2:57:10Speaker 00

  Beautiful. My pleasure, brother. Thank you. Good to see you. Bye, everybody.

• 2:57:13Speaker 03

  Streaming October 30th on Paramount Plus.

• 2:57:30Speaker 00

  I'm Dexter Morgan. I've been killing killers for half my life. It gets to you. You're having a midlife crisis. I'm not ready for that.

• 2:57:38Speaker 03

  He's back.

• 2:57:40Speaker 00

  I'm older. I'm wiser.

• 2:57:42Speaker 03

  And sharper than ever.

• 2:57:45Speaker 00

  Things are going to get messy. But if I can't believe in myself, I can't believe in anything.

• 2:57:51Speaker 03

  Dexter Resurrection. New season October 30th on the Paramount Plus Premium Plan. How to sell your car. First, go to carmax.com, then.

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  Get a real offer today at carmax.com. Offers are good for seven days. At-home pickup not available in all locations. Distance restrictions and a fee may apply.