#2560 - David Grusch

David Grusch is a former United States Air Force intelligence officer, former representative of the National Reconnaissance Office to the Unidentified Aerial Phenomena Task Force, and former co-lead for Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena analysis at the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency. Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Get a free welcome kit with your first subscription of AG1 at https://drinkag1.com/joerogan Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

• 0:12Speaker 00

  All right, what's up?

• 0:12Speaker 01

  David.

• 0:13Speaker 00

  What's up?

• 0:14Speaker 01

  Good to see you.

• 0:15Speaker 00

  Thanks for having me back on.

• 0:15Speaker 01

  My pleasure.

• 0:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 0:17Speaker 01

  Well, you're the one who's closest to the flames, so tell me what's going on.

• 0:20Speaker 00

  Oh, I know, right? So, uh, living the nightmare is what I tell my friends, so it's definitely been a tough several years or so. And, uh, you know, last time we were on, uh, just testified in front of Congress and, uh, the UAP Disclosure Act of 23 was, you know, possibly getting passed. It failed to get passed. And then I, um, based on, you know, things I know about the Biden administration, things I heard from the White House, I decided to kind of lay low for a year. So 24, I didn't do too much. And then Representative Burleson had this crazy idea to, to hire me as a professional staff member for Congress, working for him. Turns out, I guess I was like the first guy that ever testified in front of Congress

• 1:03Speaker 00

  as a whistleblower and then being subsequently hired by Congress. Um, I was the first guy to ever do that, which is very interesting and very cool. And I, I do thank Burleson for, um, you know, his leadership on that. And so I did that for about a year and a half. Um, just finished up, actually. I was like, you know what? I'm staying longer than I thought, you know, I'm gonna wait until Labor Day, see where things are. I worked pretty hard over, uh, uh, summer recess in August and, and decided, uh, to, you know, wind down some of my activities, cause I accomplished a lot of my objectives. We can get into that, obviously. And then, uh, kind of move into, I'll call it my next phase of operations, which includes a little break for me. Um, it's been very tiring.

• 1:45Speaker 00

  I've been kind of, you know, going full throttle for the last couple of years and whatnots. And so we're really at a, I think, a poignant moment in US history with what Trump's done and in the things you've seen in the media and whatnot. And there's a lot of other stuff happening behind the scenes, cause, you know, a lot of my work has been private, behind the scenes, you know, working for Congress, specifically Representative Burleson.

• 2:07Speaker 01

  So let me ask you the environment. So are there some people in Congress that are interested in disclosure of this stuff and pursue you and want to find out information and want you to tell them what, what's going on? And, and are there other people that are resisting this?

• 2:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think there's a big bifurcation of the non-believers and then kind of the UAP caucus, although you see more and more people kind of signing on to the cause. Like I did a presser back in June in front of the Capitol with members, and we even had Brigadier General retired, uh, Representative Scott Perry there, who is on the House Intelligence Committee from my home state of PA. And it was good to see other members, you know, start showing that they support the cause, but it has been challenging behind the scenes. And I had many SCIF classified meetings with the members, kind of going over the topological history of this topic and, and some of the deeper darker kind of, you know, criminal stuff I bumped into and how I worked with DOJ to kind of highlight some of that stuff.

• 3:06Speaker 01

  What kind of criminal stuff?

• 3:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, so, uh, when I was, um, looking into this, and I have to be very respectful of, uh, my participation in this, cause it's an ongoing thing with DOJ. Um, I was, you know, following the money, bumping into other activities, um, very much like, actually, it's sort of related. And if you saw on the news that David Rush, very similar name to me, it's kind of, uh, freaky, uh, but he was arrested with $40 million of gold bars. He was a CIA officer. He made a fake, uh, continuity of government special access program. And, you know, he went under the radar, basically, um, doing his own thing and getting gold and Rolexes and stuff, and the FBI raided his house back in May. True, true story. Yeah, the guy has a-

• 3:50Speaker 01

  He has, uh, gold bars?

• 3:51Speaker 00

  He has, he had $40 million of gold bars.

• 3:53Speaker 01

  Where'd he get the gold bars?

• 3:55Speaker 00

  From the agency.

• 3:56Speaker 01

  They have them laying around?

• 3:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, I can't get into all the details of why the government-

• 4:00Speaker 01

  Wait a minute, hold on. The government has gold bars?

• 4:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:04Speaker 01

  And this guy just snatched them?

• 4:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, he made, I don't know all the details, but he made a fake continuity of government special access program that nobody was briefed into. He like, you know, papered it and, uh, nobody at the CIA questioned what he was doing. And he was like, well, I need, you know, 40 million in gold bars because of the special continuity of government activity.

• 4:23Speaker 01

  Wait a minute, wait a minute. So that's how they fund some things? In gold bars?

• 4:28Speaker 00

  It's almost like, uh, in Afghanistan, when I was over there, I'd have guys with briefcases full of $100,000 in cash, cause you have to pay for things, right?

• 4:37Speaker 01

  Right.

• 4:37Speaker 00

  So imagine-

• 4:38Speaker 01

  But that kind of makes more sense to me than lugging around gold.

• 4:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:42Speaker 01

  What does like 40 million in gold bars look like?

• 4:45Speaker 00

  Uh, I saw the seizure photos, it's a lot. I mean, it's pretty heavy.

• 4:48Speaker 01

  Can I see what that looks like?

• 4:49Speaker 02

  It's approximately 303 gold bars that each weigh approximately one kilogram apiece.

• 4:54Speaker 01

  Yo, that's a lot of weight.

• 4:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was looking for a picture. There's only like AI photos of it, at least that I could find.

• 5:00Speaker 01

  So a kilogram is 1.22 pounds?

• 5:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, 2.28 or something.

• 5:03Speaker 01

  That's crazy.

• 5:04Speaker 02

  617 pounds.

• 5:05Speaker 01

  He's got 600 pounds of gold?

• 5:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:08Speaker 01

  Where the fuck do you put these? So he just had it in his house?

• 5:11Speaker 00

  He did have it in his house.

• 5:12Speaker 01

  Just laying around?

• 5:13Speaker 00

  Bunch of Rolexes and all that and, uh-

• 5:15Speaker 01

  Oh, so he was just going crazy?

• 5:16Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, who knows what he was really gonna use the gold for, but that, that's an open-ended thing and he was arrested.

• 5:22Speaker 01

  Was he pretending that he was using it for some disclosure type deal? Or did it have anything to do with UAPs?

• 5:29Speaker 00

  Uh, not that I'm aware of, but that same ecosystem I bumped into. So his fabricated program was a continuity government program. So that's like, you know, if something bad happens, people are going to a hideout site, you know, sanitized location.

• 5:43Speaker 01

  Right.

• 5:44Speaker 00

  And so what I bumped into, unfortunately, was like the deep underbelly of the federal government. We can get into it. It's, it's a lot of stuff I've never talked about because it's just very terrifying and I, you know, I've been through a lot of, a lot of crazy shits. And I ended up bumping into a criminal enterprise, uh, run out of a particular agency. And, um, it was basically, uh, getting money through certain criminal endeavors, the most unspeakable type of criminal endeavors, under the cover of, uh, certain national security programs. So that's about as-

• 6:18Speaker 01

  When you say certain unspeakable?

• 6:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:21Speaker 01

  You mean like, what do you mean, like trafficking?

• 6:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:27Speaker 01

  Like child trafficking?

• 6:30Speaker 01

  So the government was involved in child trafficking for money?

• 6:35Speaker 00

  Officers of the government, that's true. Yeah. It's, it's fucked up. I, uh, I briefed members in a classified setting all the details. Um, and I, I'm highlighting that because this is how serious this issue is, is there's an ecosystem and there's a lot of good people around these programs, uh, in terms of the, the UAP side.

• 6:54Speaker 01

  UAP programs.

• 6:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I know a lot of them, they're friends of mine, they're patriotic people doing their duty, but there is like a small little caste system of characters, um, that are part of this larger ecosystem of, uh, no holds barred, we're gonna do what we want. And, you know, we're gonna do whatever kind of criminal activity to get washed money, uh, for our cutouts. Like, so a good example, of course, would be Iran-Contra, right? Which is very famous, 86. And the CIA was engaged in those kind of activities. And this has all been exposed all over North and all that, to fund the Contras, weapons purchases, procurement, et cetera. And a lot of that, you know, seemed to, uh, possibly be drug trafficking. The government never confirmed that, but you look at Barry Seal and, and his, um, uh,

• 7:38Speaker 00

  statements in the 80s and 90s and, and it's likely that that, um, probably occurred, you know?

• 7:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was all through Freeway Ricky Ross.

• 7:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's right.

• 7:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, Ricky's been on the podcast multiple times.

• 7:49Speaker 00

  That's right, that's right.

• 7:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. He was on, what was it, like two years ago? A year and a half ago? Last time he was on. Um, it's funny, cause he's out now, uh, became an attorney while I was in jail. Found out, learned to read first, okay? Couldn't read. Became an attorney in jail, found out that they tried him, you know, that triple jeopardy, three strikes thing?

• 8:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:11Speaker 01

  They tried him incorrectly, they used that incorrectly, because it's supposed to be three different times you were arrested, instead of like three crimes that were attached to one arrest. So he gets out of jail, now he sells legal weed.

• 8:23Speaker 00

  All right, all right.

• 8:25Speaker 01

  Lovely guy.

• 8:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:26Speaker 01

  But he, he's a great guy. But he had no idea that he was selling cocaine to fund the Contras versus the Sandinistas.

• 8:33Speaker 00

  Interesting.

• 8:33Speaker 01

  He had no idea.

• 8:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:35Speaker 01

  He thought that he was just a, a slick character that just knew what he was doing and was, you know, he didn't realize that the CIA was literally allowing him to do it. And then we've also had Michael Rupert on the podcast. You know who he is?

• 8:47Speaker 00

  No.

• 8:47Speaker 01

  Michael Rupert was the LA Narcotics Officer that on, uh, I believe it was on C-SPAN. He went on C-SPAN during a hearing and he exposed the entire or- organization, selling drugs in South Central Los Angeles, because he was involved in it. He was involved in like busting people that were doing it, and then they told him he has to leave it alone, because it was the CIA.

• 9:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:12Speaker 01

  This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. If you're thinking about building a website, you should try Squarespace. I know because I use it. That's right. JoeRogan.com is powered by Squarespace. It has all the features that you need to create a standout website like an AI-enhanced website builder, SEO optimization tools, and seamless checkouts with mobile pay links. Head to Squarespace.com/Rogan for a free trial. And when you are ready to launch, use the offer code ROGEN to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter.

• 9:52Speaker 01

  We all have little things we do to save ourselves time, like shopping online or paying kids from the neighborhood to rake up all those leaves sitting in the front yard. Or if you're hiring, you rely on ZipRecruiter. They match you with qualified candidates as soon as you post your job. Now that's how you save time. Try it yourself for free at ziprecruiter.com/Rogan. It's rated the number one hiring site based on G2 for a reason. Because on top of the qualified candidates, it also shows you the most interested ones first. Save time and meet great candidates sooner with ZipRecruiter. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day.

• 10:37Speaker 01

  Try it for free at ziprecruiter.com/Rogan. That's ziprecruiter.com/Rogan. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter. The football season is heating up and every week feels bigger with DraftKings Sportsbook, the number one sportsbook for live betting. Plus get extra protection with early exit. Opt in and if your player leaves the game with an eligible injury in the first half, your bet is protected. No matter which game you're watching, you're always connected and in on the action with one app. New DraftKings customers, sign up with code ROGEN, spend $5 to get $150 in total bonuses within 14 days. That's code ROGEN in partnership with DraftKings.

• 11:22Speaker 01

  The crown is yours.

• 11:23Speaker 03

  If you or somebody you know has a gambling problem, call 1-800-MYRESSET. 21 and over, Virginia only. Eligibility restrictions apply. $50 in non-withdrawable bonus bets issued every seven days via click to claim for 14 days. Bonus bets expire seven days after issuance. For additional terms and responsible gaming resources, see sportsbook.draftkings.com/promos. Limited time offer.

• 11:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, and so when I bumped into that stuff, you know, I immediately worked at Department of Justice.

• 11:46Speaker 01

  That's one level, but like child trafficking is another level.

• 11:49Speaker 00

  I know, man. It's, it's, it's really fucked up and, and there's a lot of details that are, I have a lot more questions than answers and, and I, you know, I worked with the OJ and, you know, from what I understand, I got a gold star and a brief to Cash Patel about it last year. I wasn't in the briefing, but I, and I, I was told I got kudos, but it was very disturbing. And so like, obviously a lot of these programs are legal in the sense that there's, in terms of UAP stuff, there's, you know, classified executive orders back in the day that covers them and, and they're upstanding citizens. And we could, we could litigate like, you know, Congress wasn't necessarily brought into the fold enough from an oversight perspective, et cetera.

• 12:31Speaker 00

  But, you know, the core of the program, you know, does have a legal beginning, but when you don't have oversight, unfortunately, certain small pockets of people start doing shit that they shouldn't have.

• 12:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 12:42Speaker 00

  And I, and unfortunately, I got deeply ensnared in that. And there was a very small group of people that, you know, pushed me over the edge and I had to do what I got to do to, to, you know, protect myself. And I never wanted to be a whistleblower. You know, I was a deeply entrenched, you know, 15-year intel officer, military officer in the Air Force. You know, I was working some of the country's most sensitive issues, you know, started going to the White House to brief the National Security Council in my mid-20s on space issues back during the Obama administration. And, and in 2019, when I joined the UAP Task Force and I was tasked to investigate this, I was like, sure, I'll look into it. You know, the special access program or black program community has a lot of dysfunction

• 13:26Speaker 00

  and, and maybe some stuff wasn't reported, you know, you know, correctly. And, and I didn't know really what I was going to find, but if there was a US program, you know, I'd figure it out. I'd probably get cleared to it and we'd be fine. We'd have like a mafia meeting and, and, you know, that, and I know why it was protected the way it is and whatnot. But unfortunately, about a year and a half, about October 2020 is when kind of my life changed. And particular individuals, instead of coming to me, who knew me by the way personally, I know, I know them personally. Now, Dave, you're bumping into something. You know, I'm going to defensively brief you. This is what it is. Or hey, I'm going to slide an NDA, sign this and I'll read you in.

• 14:11Speaker 00

  And, and my colleagues and I joked about that, like, we're bumping in the shit. Eventually somebody's going to knock on my door in my office and be like, hey, I need to talk to you. And unfortunately, that never happens. It's really tragic because that would have been an easier way, but I immediately got administratively nuked in October 2020. And basically they went after everybody around me. My boss at the National Reconnaissance Office as, you know, Major Grusch, the Air Force officer in the reserves, got walked out of NRO headquarters in Chantilly, Virginia under fabricated personal conduct things. And then they went after, you know, my chief of staff who worked for me at NGA when I

• 14:53Speaker 00

  was a 15 and, and coworkers, people they thought were my enablers, right? And, and I thought, okay, I could fight this. They're bringing up like my mental health stuff, which we've talked about before, Afghanistan, PTSD. I'm like, I reported it. I was cleared of, you know, no problems, kept my top secret clearance, and I still have my top secret clearance. But it got very, very scary in early 2022. And I've avoided talking about this for a long time. And I've mentioned in my hearing in 2023, you know, I was, you know, I'm, I'm here in fear for my life, et cetera. Well, you know, I'm not talking about the criminal stuff.

• 15:37Speaker 00

  I found stuff that's happened in my personal life and stuff. And so back in early 2022, everything's fine. Started noticing some suspicious activity near where I live. And I didn't think much of it, thought it was kind of strange and I don't want to quite go into all the details, but basically later one particular day, I was sent a message that they can touch me and my wife. And they, they're, they know where we are and they.

• 16:11Speaker 01

  And what, do you think this was particular, was this because of the child trafficking stuff? Was this because of some other illegal activity with no oversight?

• 16:20Speaker 00

  You know, in private environments, I was asked what, what red line, what tripwire did I cross? To this day, I don't know specifically. I suspect based on them, what turns out they were monitoring my classified computer at work, my, my investigation notes that I would keep encrypted on there. I think they were very worried that I figured out a lot of things. And I, I still don't know for sure though, like in it, and there's a lot of other things too. I guess I'm kind of jumping around because in early 2021, you know, certain people that

• 17:01Speaker 00

  were helping me and I was talking to, started to experience Havana syndrome symptoms, you know, anomalous health incidents. And I know a lot about that. That's another kind of ecosystem I was an expert in, in the government. And of course, my first thing is like, huh, uh, did you piss off the Russians or Chinese or some other kind of foreign intelligence service or, because you don't think domestic? And I'm like, what did you do in your career? Were you on covert action programs? Did you like, you know, bomb some, you know, adversary's building and they're pissed off at you and they hold a grudge? And so I noticed that, I wasn't going to equate that to the topic and, but I, I was very nervous about that because people I know were starting to experience those symptoms,

• 17:45Speaker 00

  specifically microwave directed energy, most likely, just based on certain tradecraft they were doing to detect it, which I won't get into the details of that. And then there's their symptomology, so to speak. And so that was frightening. And in, in, in that 2021 timeframe, I was sitting at home. I was getting, you know, investigated by three agencies and I really didn't know what was going on. A lot of my colleagues were going to continuing on that investigation on, on, on my behalf. And eventually in late 2021, NGA hired me as a 15 off the street, kind of came back into government full-time. I was hoping that agency would protect me against, you know, the CIA and the NRO and

• 18:30Speaker 00

  certain elements of the DOD that were going after me because of these couple antagonists that were trying to, you know, basically push me over the edge administratively. But. What I crossed the Rubicon in early 2022 when I was sent a message and it was the same day I was sent a message, other people got that message too. So it was coordinated geographically. And of course, you know, I reported that to federal law enforcement, counterintelligence element. And at the time, I'm like, well, you know, there was a one adversarial intelligence agency that had an interest in me several years ago. And I had a little incident that was actually kind of funny. So I wasn't sure if it was like the US government, or even

• 19:12Speaker 00

  if it was related to my investigation. And then several, several weeks later, and I get chills talking about this because it's kind of upsetting. I was in DC for a conference on UAP, actually, for my, for my agency, NGA at the time. And I got summoned to an off books Senate intel committee, we'll call it meeting, in their, you know, their SCIF, right, their vault where you could talk classified information. And certain individuals were there, known to me, great credentials, people I've known for a while in my line of work.

• 19:55Speaker 00

  And so was, you know, dozen, dozen and a half senior staff for Marco Rubio, Mark Werner, you know, etc. Right. And in that meeting, we, you know, we talked about the legacy program, the history, many hours, and I'm a fly on the wall. Like, this is really for Senate staff. I'm just kind of sitting in the back. And, you know, they turned to staff and they, you know, they pointed at me and they're like, oh, by the way, you know, the, these couple individuals, and they, and they named the individuals. I'm like, I know who they are. They wanted to kill you. And I know Lou Elizondo talked about it.

• 20:36Speaker 01

  But why?

• 20:37Speaker 00

  I do not know that for sure. I think, well, so, hmm, be careful what I say. There are certain presidential findings that allow certain things to protect critical things in the government. And my assessment is, I was getting so close to exposing it because I was sort of preparing my inspector general's report to the IG, that I must have crossed some sort of Rubicon. I still would like to know, and I hope these people are, you know, brought to justice. And that's, you know, my wish and dream. And hopefully, Department of Justice does what's needed, but.

• 21:19Speaker 01

  There's an investigation ongoing right now?

• 21:20Speaker 00

  Yes, on that. And that's all I'll say defensively, not to interfere with that.

• 21:24Speaker 01

  A good day starts with a solid morning routine. So if something's missing, if your body isn't getting what it needs, everything can feel off. AG1 is designed to help fill the holes. Their next gen formula is dialed in with over 75 ingredients, minerals, vitamins, adaptogens, and more clinically shown to fill nutrient gaps and increase healthy gut bacteria. And AG1 Pro takes it even further. It has CAHMB for muscle protection, zinc carnecine for gut health, and five grams of creatitalis premium, German-made creatine monohydrate. Wish, if you don't know, creatine is a highly studied compound in sports science

• 22:09Speaker 01

  that helps support energy. Get more from your morning routine. Add either AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro, and your body will thank you. Go to drinkag1.com/joeroogan. And for a limited time, save 20% on your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro. That's drinkag1.com/joeroogan. Okay. How much of this do you think has to do with actual UAP disclosure? And how much of it has to do with the lack of oversight that allowed people to do illegal activities?

• 22:46Speaker 00

  I think some problem children decided to abuse some standing options to protect, you know, critical infrastructure in the United States, which, you know, for example, that would be like an Air Force flight line, a ICBM silo, other activities. And they decided I was some sort of threat. And it's, it's so disgusting because I, you know, like I said, I was a field grade officer in the Air Force, I was a GS15 in CIA, Colonel Cleveland civilian. And I'm sitting there in Senate chambers and I'm hearing this. And I won't get into all the details. I know a lot I heard, like, you know, all the details on

• 23:26Speaker 00

  that. And I don't want to like, burn my sources. And, and I just remember how upset Senate staff was. And to the point where, you know, a particular staffer, who's very senior, went to his office and got some whiskey. And, you know, all of them started drinking in the SCIF. Because it's like, everybody was afraid, like, are they serious? They're, like, they literally were thinking about killing fucking Dave? And like, and I found out that there was a kibosh to that. That's a longer story for someday, if I could ever, you know, discuss the whole, the whole history. And.

• 23:58Speaker 01

  So it was considered, but then it was kiboshed?

• 24:00Speaker 00

  Yes. Thank God. And I know how it was stopped. And I owe some people a debt of gratitude, literally. And, and this was just a few weeks after, you know, I was sent a message. And, and even after the meeting, we were finding stuff, and other people were finding stuff, to let people know that they're being tracked. And I know this sounds like so fucking crazy and all that, but.

• 24:29Speaker 01

  Well, so does someone having $40 million in gold hanging out their house and a bunch of Rolexes.

• 24:35Speaker 00

  Yeah. Never did I think, you know, I'm a very patriotic guy. I love serving America. You know, it hurts me every day not having the uniform anymore. And knowing that was the level that they thought about going to, because of this interesting interpretation of certain standing options. And I, and eventually in this disclosure process, a lot of that will come out. I just have to be careful what I say now until, you know, the, the president figures out how to, you know, release some of this history, unfortunately. So.

• 25:07Speaker 01

  Understood. Yeah. So one of the things that we talked about before, so you were scheduled for another podcast a while back, but flights got canceled.

• 25:15Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 25:16Speaker 01

  And we moved it today. But you were saying that it's actually fortuitous that it was rescheduled?

• 25:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, a lot of things are happening. I see the administration getting really, really serious on this. And I think people don't appreciate the courage that Trump is, is showing right now, ordering the government to release everything we know about this topic. It'll be.

• 25:37Speaker 01

  Courage? How so? Like, you think he's in danger from releasing this information?

• 25:42Speaker 00

  No, not necessarily. But it's, it's the ontological shock, and the history coming out, and some sort of the outrage. I mean, I think it'll be uniting sort of like in post 9/11 America after the towers fell, right? You have the, the fear of dirty bombs and other terrorist attacks. But you also have this like uniting panacea that kind of brings people together.

• 26:04Speaker 01

  You think that is equivalent to what's happening right now?

• 26:06Speaker 00

  It will be. And I think that's.

• 26:08Speaker 01

  What is going to happen?

• 26:09Speaker 00

  So I believe before Trump, Trump's term ends, that it's all going to come out.

• 26:18Speaker 01

  What does that mean?

• 26:20Speaker 00

  Everything I've testified about. You know, the fact that, you know, we've been studying this for a while. We've recovered material, AKA intact, semi-intact craft. We've, you know, recovered this anomalous intelligence piloting the craft. And, you know, we are reverse engineering that. And obviously, there's other parts to that. It's very complicated ecosystem. A lot of people who are just, release it all, show us Indiana Jones warehouse tour, don't appreciate the care that we're going to have to proceed with. Because this is not a static ecosystem. This isn't just like archaeology where you're digging up stuff. There is, you are dealing with, you know, third parties, both human, you know,

• 27:04Speaker 00

  adversarial countries, etc. They have their own program. And then you have, you know, our, this anomalous intelligence, our visitors, NHI, whatever you want to call them, ultra-terrestrial, depending on what taxonomy in the tree that you want to ascribe some of this origin to. And, and of course, you know, the, the national security related technology that has been derived. We've derived great stuff to defend America. I've had exposure on that. And, you know, I'm very.

• 27:30Speaker 01

  We've derived it through back engineering.

• 27:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:33Speaker 01

  100%?

• 27:34Speaker 00

  Yes. Well, some of it, it was inspiration. It wasn't a one to one, like, we, we unlocked the iPhone. It was like, huh, that's an interesting material. Look at that frequency selective surface property. You know what? We could use that for an aerospace application or whatever. And so a lot of it was garnered via inspiration, not one to one. Yeah. In some cases, I suppose we did. But like, that's been most of it. Yeah.

• 28:02Speaker 01

  So what's the holdup in terms of disclosure?

• 28:06Speaker 00

  I necessarily can't read the president's mind. There's certainly a multilateral kind of diplomatic issue. I mean, so we're in this, this issue now where, once we cross the Rubicon, then we affect allies and adversaries. You know, our adversaries have programs. What are they going to tell their citizenry? You have possible theological distress, Vatican, etc. And I'm, you know, I'm a Catholic, and I certainly appreciate the Vatican's long study on this subject. And they've just stayed quiet on what they know. And so it's, there's a lot of like collateral effects. If you're not careful with certain stuff, you, you can, you know, trigger a response. And there is great fear that, I don't necessarily

• 28:51Speaker 00

  believe in this, but like, there has been assessments in the past that, you know, revealing certain things may, you know, trigger a response from a third party.

• 28:59Speaker 01

  Trigger a response from them, from these.

• 29:02Speaker 00

  Possibly. Yes. And that is a, that has been written up. So government think tanks wrote that up in reports to previous presidents.

• 29:12Speaker 01

  So the, the, the theory is that we disclose, people are now aware of it all over the globe, and they decide to show themselves?

• 29:20Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, I think there's a real fear of like a Ghostbusters moment, I'll say.

• 29:25Speaker 01

  Oh, boy.

• 29:26Speaker 00

  You know, and.

• 29:28Speaker 00

  It's one of those things where I'm trying to walk the line and be as diplomatic as possible and also trying to prepare the populace at the same time because clearly the government hasn't right now. And I mean, Trump wants it out for sure. His team needs to be astute enough to know what to ask for, you know, massage the deep state and get that information because we just saw Tim Burchett on Benny Johnson's podcast talk about Stephen Miller called him and was like, hey, I'm getting blocked, like physically blocked from access to a lot of this stuff. And you know, that's very concerning. I would say Stephen Miller is an alpha dog. He's a pit bull. And as a fellow alpha, I do appreciate his.

• 30:12Speaker 01

  That's a silly thing to say.

• 30:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:13Speaker 01

  You know that, right?

• 30:14Speaker 00

  What?

• 30:15Speaker 01

  A fellow alpha?

• 30:16Speaker 00

  Fellow alpha?

• 30:19Speaker 01

  Opens yourself up to like tremendous amounts of ridicule.

• 30:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, I know, I know. I mean, I mean, nobody's perfect. And I know, everybody has their faults, but I do appreciate the fervency. He is attacking the issue behind the scenes. And I just, I think he needs guided the right way and informed and kind of how, how to cut this deal, you know?

• 30:39Speaker 01

  I met him very briefly at the UFC event at the White House and he told me that it's gonna come out. I'm like, okay.

• 30:45Speaker 00

  That's good. Well, there you go.

• 30:47Speaker 01

  It was really quick.

• 30:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:48Speaker 01

  It's like, he's like, I'm just, I know you're interested in this. This is literally all we talked about. The UFO thing is gonna come out.

• 30:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:54Speaker 01

  Like, okay, when? When's it coming out? Let's go.

• 30:57Speaker 00

  Exactly. And, and, and Trump understands the subject pretty good. And, you know, he's in the know. And he understands some of the implications. So like I said, he has a lot of courage because this is likely going to change society in a big way. I can't necessarily, I'm not like a social anthropologist or a psychiatrist. Like, I can't necessarily predict in what specific ways it might reduce, you know, fetal nation state peer competition and other things. But it is going to change. And I, and I think when people look back at this interview, it's gonna be very haunting because I think in short order, you know, before Trump leaves office, we're going to be in a new paradigm. And I'm normally a very pessimistic cynical person. A lot of my friends know that. But I, I have great

• 31:40Speaker 00

  confidence that the president is doing the right thing. And I, I feel there's eventually gonna, there, the people that are in charge of this are going to have to comply with the president's order. And, but there's a right way of, of doing this, I think. And I, like I said, I'm not some sycophant for the deep state. I'm a whistleblower, obviously. And, you know, I have philosophical differences about how this was kept and how they could possibly reveal stuff. But I, I am surprisingly confident, which is, which is kind of weird for me to say, because I just see the tea leaves. I know Miller's serious. There's other people in government serious. I mean, even see Aaron Lucas, the PDDNI, the Deputy Director of National Intelligence, you know, sign these big NDA waivers. It includes like

• 32:24Speaker 00

  any kind of waiver of not even telling the president, sorry, you have to tell us kind of thing. And, and so you're seeing kind of the, the chessboard being set. I know everybody's not happy with the tranches coming out with the low hanging fruit videos and, and recordings and stuff. And Representative Burleson and I, before I left his office recently, got a 1952 recording that was still classified from Blue Book, talking about the seriousness of this issue and all the crazy shit that they're seeing near nuclear sites and test ranges, which is interesting because in, in that video that's been declassified, it mentions the very sites that in modern day have that same anomalous activity to include stuff in the Southwest. I can't say where, it's in the ecosystem, in the open source,

• 33:07Speaker 00

  but the executive branch has it acknowledged what specific tests and training range. They're seeing crazy orps that they can't explain. Accost helicopters and, and all that, so.

• 33:19Speaker 01

  So is Trump experiencing resistance, in your opinion?

• 33:24Speaker 00

  Yes. And I don't know all the details, but clearly, clearly Miller has. And a lot of it is, I think, and I can't read the mind of the deep state, but as a former deep stater, I would say that there's always been this kind of disdain for political appointees and they don't, and members of Congress, like they don't, they don't have the reverence on this issue. They're gonna fuck it up. They're gonna, you know, say something that they shouldn't have about a classified program. And that's why some classified programs are kept from Congress. It's called waived programs. And the only presidents that were really, really involved were the ones like H W Bush, right? He was CIA Director. He was fully briefed

• 34:06Speaker 00

  on this issue. A lot of that lore is true about H W Bush. Cheney, like I've talked about, fully in this. He was the mob boss for many years. He was kind of the head of this activity. And so I think there's some testing of the waters right now. It's kind of like cat's paw dynamic, like, you know, we'll give you a little bit of this, little bit of that. And they're, they're seeing how the administration is gonna potentially roll this out. And, and obviously, if the White House wants my opinion, I'm available. But I do trust the president's team hopefully will be able to handle this. And because if Trump doesn't enforce his order and see this through, I don't think any other president is going to be able. I mean, I mean, regardless of Democrat, left, right, whatever, like

• 34:51Speaker 00

  if he follows through on this, he's going to be the GOAT. He's going to be a legend. And, you know, all the other things people have problems with in his presidency, Iran, whatever, I think this will wipe those out. And this is like really important for his legacy to initiate the process before the 28 election. And then there's like a hot handoff to the next administration. And, you know, if Trump's a political animal, he could easily line up a Republican team on the 28 ticket to basically, you know, be his continuity on this, too. I think that'd be very smart. And.

• 35:24Speaker 01

  So this is going to take a long time to release? Is that how you're projecting?

• 35:30Speaker 00

  That was always the plan back in the day.

• 35:32Speaker 01

  Why?

• 35:33Speaker 00

  Just because it's like an anesthetization and climatization process. It's like, you know, okay, we're gonna focus on this topic. Everybody's, this is gonna get normalized. The temperature is gonna cool. And then we're gonna bring in this shocking thing.

• 35:44Speaker 01

  So there's a, there's a schedule, like in terms of like the psychological impact on the populace?

• 35:51Speaker 00

  There was in the past, in terms of certain government think tanks wrote classified assessments for previous presidents on this. I don't know what the current plan is. I'm just, I'm currently literally a private citizen right now.

• 36:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 36:05Speaker 00

  But if they're gonna do what they did in the past, it is, and the slow rollout has its pluses and minuses. Like, I would say, due to human factors, risks of adversarial countries getting ahead of us, other whistleblowers, whatever, you probably have to roll this out in at least like 12 months and whatnot. But we're in a precarious time if the administration doesn't start because China and Russia could take advantage of this moment now, our weakness. You know, China has their famous Belt and Road Initiative. China has admitted publicly that they have a UAP task force. Obviously, they have more than that behind the scenes. And they actually announced that when the DOD UAP task force was announced. You can

• 36:47Speaker 00

  find a news article from June 2020 in the South China Morning Post, where they talk about they're analyzing these encounters, they're using AI, etc. So.

• 36:56Speaker 01

  Do you feel that China has, or do you know if China has these crashed vehicles as well?

• 37:03Speaker 00

  There's parallel programs.

• 37:05Speaker 01

  There's parallel programs. Now, one of the things that Diana Pasulka said, and Gary Nolan refers to in the same way as well, they, they refer to them as donations.

• 37:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's what's really interesting is I am aware of certain historical retriever rules where they were like perfectly landed. And it wasn't like a crash. And what is, what's going on there? I'm sure we've done a deep assessment. I never had access to that kind of information. I'm sure that we understand why that happened at some level. But that is true, that that's actually happened.

• 37:38Speaker 01

  So the theory is that they want us to find these things so that we can examine the technology and perhaps work from it, back engineer it, or like you were saying before, gain inspiration to try new?

• 37:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean.

• 37:52Speaker 01

  This episode is brought to you by Traeger. Food cooked over real wood is just on another level. And that's why Traeger is such a game changer. Their grills run on real hardwood pellets, so everything gets that legit wood fired flavor. Whether you're grilling steaks, smoking ribs, cooking chicken, or even baking a pizza. You just set your temperature, put your food in, and let Traeger handle the rest. It's simple. If you like food that tastes like it came off a real fire without all the work, check out Traeger grills. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. If you've thought about trying therapy with our long-term partner, BetterHelp, insurance options may now be available nationwide with

• 38:35Speaker 01

  an average copay for eligible members of just $23 per session. And with World Mental Health Day on the 10th, now's the perfect time to give it a try. In fact, don't even wait until the 10th because all that stress you feel, it's not waiting around. So instead of letting it build up, sign up for a therapy session and unload at any time, not just on World Mental Health Day. If you've been waiting to start therapy, BetterHelp works with more than 125 health plan networks and eligible members have an average copay of just $23 per session with insurance. Don't have insurance or live outside of the United States? You can still get 10% off your first month. Visit betterhelp.com to explore your

• 39:20Speaker 01

  payment options. That's better H E L P dot com.

• 39:24Speaker 00

  Part of it's like throwing the gorilla banana, see if it can peel it. But also, the more skeptical intel officer in me is like, was this a Trojan horse? Do you want us to figure things out and then get, then get addicted to a certain type of technology? And then that creates a control loop where they start handling us, whether we need raw resources to maintain a certain technology?

• 39:48Speaker 01

  They, as in this intelligence?

• 39:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:50Speaker 01

  Whatever this is, this non-human intelligence. Right. So if, if it is, if it is a donation, do you feel like this donation is evenly distributed amongst world powers?

• 40:04Speaker 00

  You know, I do not know the statistical distribution. That's very interesting. I never understood the total number of retrievals in other countries participated.

• 40:17Speaker 01

  But there's supposed to be quite a few in the United States.

• 40:20Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, that's for sure. I don't know the answer to that, actually. I'm sure there's a statistical analysis that'll come out in this process.

• 40:27Speaker 01

  Do you think there's any shared information between these governments? Do you think they communicate?

• 40:33Speaker 00

  There is a gentleman's agreement, the top layer of it I can talk about. And I've talked about it previously, so it's not anything super new. If you look at the Accident Measures Agreement of 1971, which is the short title of this god-awfully long titled treaty that was signed in September 1971, you'll see Article III of the treaty talks about UAP. And hey, if you see any unidentified objects around your nuclear or critical comms facilities, please call us, bro. And that was between the USSR and America. And then in 2013, the classified annex of that treaty got declassified. You can find it online at George Washington University National Security Archives.

• 41:16Speaker 00

  But it gives the nuke flash, like the red line, like code to say, it was like atom 222, atom 333, and that's all declassified. And you would send that to the Kremlin, like, hey, we see fucking weird shit around Plesesque. It's not us. It's not a false flag, and vice versa. And so there was a red line comms for UAP activity between Russia and the US. And of course, Russia and the US during the Cold War had a mutual notification treaty for space launch vehicle and ICBM launches, et cetera. Weirdly enough, we've never had that with China. Even to this day, we don't have a mutual, this is crazy, we don't even have a mutual notification.

• 41:55Speaker 00

  If they're gonna do like a submarine-launched ballistic missile test, you know, off their coast, they're not obligated by treaty to tell us. So, and sometimes they don't with certain national security activities. And so Northern Command, NORAD, Missile Warning Center, other places, NSA DEFSMAC in Laurel, Maryland have to be on their A-game to like make sure it was like a test. Because the Chinese aren't obligated to tell us. And I, a crazy story in that regard, the Indians did something like that to us. I was on duty in the NRO Operations Center, and by the way, I got this cleared through security, so, you know, NRO, don't shank me.

• 42:40Speaker 00

  Basically, there was an unexpected Indian missile test that hit one of their satellites in 2019. It was like March of 2019.

• 42:49Speaker 01

  Hit one of our satellites?

• 42:50Speaker 00

  Oh, no, not our, one of their.

• 42:51Speaker 01

  Their own satellites?

• 42:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, their own defunct weather satellite.

• 42:55Speaker 01

  On purpose or an accident?

• 42:57Speaker 00

  On purpose. And.

• 42:58Speaker 01

  They shot down one of their own satellites?

• 43:00Speaker 00

  And they didn't tell us. I remember in my office, I had like all these different phones. I'm like, calling the embassy, all this. I'm like, what the fuck? You know, and because we were worried at the NRO about the debris. Because we fly spy satellites, that's the mission of the National Reconnaissance Office. And I was the backup director of intelligence as a reservist at the Operations Center, where I was, you know, also handling the PDB for the director. And I, you know, led the director's briefing team. And, you know, I'm like going to the orbital analysts on the watch floor with all the crazy screens, like, calculate the debris field, you know, let me know if we have to maneuver something, and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, running up to the director's office in my uniform, you know, out of breath. I'm like, holy shit, you know? And it was kind of a big deal. And that's publicly, you know, you can Google that now.

• 43:45Speaker 00

  And I remember when that went down, it was pretty crazy, so.

• 43:49Speaker 01

  No, it sounds completely insane.

• 43:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:51Speaker 01

  So, are there other countries besides China, Russia, and us that supposedly have access to these vehicles?

• 43:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:00Speaker 01

  Which other countries? Can you say?

• 44:01Speaker 00

  That I don't want to get into, because that gets into some sensitive stuff.

• 44:05Speaker 01

  Right. Supposedly, this is like one of the best legends, that there's a craft that's so large they couldn't move it, so they had to make a building around it, and supposedly in Korea?

• 44:17Speaker 00

  I don't know.

• 44:18Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, you do know. How dare you? But you've heard that rumor, I'm sure, online.

• 44:24Speaker 00

  I've heard that rumor online, yeah.

• 44:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. You don't know anything about that?

• 44:27Speaker 00

  Yeah. We'll let the federal government.

• 44:29Speaker 01

  Do you have any personal experience with any of this stuff?

• 44:32Speaker 00

  You know, it's funny you ask that. I, as far as I can remember, I have no experience with the phenomenon. Like, a lot of people in this, I guess, ufology, whatever you want to call it, they have that personal experience. Like, oh, yeah, when I was a kid, I saw an orb, or whatever. And I have zero. I've seen a couple interesting things in the sky that, you know, could have been satellite passes. I've been an amateur astronomer, besides having a physics degree, I've been an amateur astronomer since I was like in middle school, like 12, 13 years old. And I still have never seen anything in my personal life in a stupendous nature. I've never had any kind of spooky woo stuff happen.

• 45:11Speaker 01

  Never been visited?

• 45:12Speaker 00

  No, and that's why, like, I was open to this. You know, I'm a child of the 80s, well, I grew up, I was born in the 80s. You know, most of my childhood was in the 90s. And, you know, I watched X-Files and Star Trek: Next Gen. And of course, I'm like, you know, I'm a precocious teen, reading like Brief History Time, and, you know, Isaac Asimov, and I'm learning about the Drake Equation. I'm like, there's probably life, but who knows? And I'm, I'm open to it. And then, you know, when I got into the intelligence community, that's like the first thing I looked up, like on the web, I'm like on the computer. I'm like, I go on to a certain database, I'm like typing in Area 51, you know, UFO. Like, everybody's done that who's gone through intel school, whether they admitted or not. And of course, I didn't see anything or anything.

• 45:55Speaker 00

  The only thing I bumped into early in my career in like 2009, I remember reading the OSAP, the Defense Intelligence Reference Documents, the DIRDs. And at the time, I had no idea what they were doing. Turns out, it was obviously UAP-related, but I was reading, why is the DIA looking into magnetohydrodynamic propulsion and cloaking and all this other stuff? And of course, I find out later what it was. But I had absolutely no personal experience, and even professionally, for most of my career. Now, I found out behind the scenes later, like, oh, you remember that top-secret program you're working on, Dave? You were actually looking for UAP, you didn't know it. I'm like, what?

• 46:39Speaker 00

  And of course, you know, I find out, and I learn about, you know, how they hid all this infrastructure, and they used a lot of conventional national security intelligence collection architecture to basically facilitate this crash retrieval program, which makes sense, because they're not going to reinvent the wheel and, you know, totally have a separate infrastructure to use to like figure out if stuff crashed, activity, et cetera.

• 47:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 47:03Speaker 00

  And, you know, early, I would say, about 10 years into my career, I remember some imagery analysts saying, hey, Dave, you know, like, they told us to airbrush some stuff out of photos and stuff, and it was round. And I'm like, okay, dude, well, maybe that's something you're not clear to, or whatever. And I do remember that. And I had some suspicious recruitment earlier in my career, too. I was on some really sensitive stuff, and I ended up finding out it was directly adjacent to the program. And I went through this whole, like, smoking man recruitment thing for a year. And, you know, was told I was going to get these kind of bizarre accesses. I'm like, what are you talking about?

• 47:45Speaker 00

  And ultimately, I was never recruited, and I kind of just like filed that in the back of my brain for years. But like I've said, you know, before, it wasn't until like spring of 2017, I was at the CIA briefing the deputy director's staff on a bunch of DoD classified programs. And the chief of a very sensitive office at the agency pulled me aside and was like, Dave, what do you know about UFOs? It's like, I hear there's like a program at the Pentagon and all that. And I'm like, I don't know, like, I'm briefed almost every DoD program at the time, by the way, and hundreds of programs in the intelligence community, because I was in a position of very high trust. And I, you know, I'm very patriotic, and I'm very humbled that I was in a position like that

• 48:27Speaker 00

  in my 30s. And I didn't think anything of it until this subject got more popularized, people in public, you know, Tom DeLonge, TTSA, and all that. And then I was professionally interested, but not really working on it in 2018. And then early in 19 is when I got brought on as the NRO rep to the then Navy Task Force, which became the DoD's, you know, UAP Task Force. That's kind of my origin story. And so I was always, I've always been curious, but I never saw evidence, and I never had any personal experience with the phenomenon that kind of colors my judgment on this, I guess, so.

• 49:06Speaker 01

  So I'm sure you're aware of how put off when he was tasked by the Bush administration, along with a bunch of other thinkers, to try to come up with pros and cons for disclosure.

• 49:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, I knew some other people in that meeting, and I verified that meeting took place. And even Arrow admitted in their Volume 1 report, which was horrible, that's a long story, painful, that it took place, but it was just a hypothetical scenario at a federally funded research and development center in Northern Virginia.

• 49:35Speaker 01

  What year was this?

• 49:36Speaker 00

  2004. It was like November of 2004. And it's like, but why was it hypothetical if it's not real? Nobody explains that. And obviously, the story is, you know, Steve Hadley, who was the National Security Advisor, sponsored it, you know. I believe Hadley denies it, but, you know, who knows if Steve would, you know, tell the truth on that just because of the sensitivities, so.

• 50:00Speaker 01

  And so for people that don't know what happened, supposedly, they brought in a bunch of different thought leaders, and they gave them a pro and a con side. Like, what would be negatively affected by disclosure, what would be positively affected by disclosure, and attach a numerical value to each thing?

• 50:16Speaker 00

  Correct. They had like a computer system there that like tabulated everything, from what I know, talking to other attendees.

• 50:23Speaker 01

  And virtually every one of them had more negative than positive. And so the decision was made to not disclose.

• 50:30Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, and then the main decision, if I remember correctly, was the federal contracts fraud. Well, that could be debated in, you know, the Supreme Court. But they realized a lot of, so this is another issue of disclosure, besides the ontological shock, and people can't handling it, and like.

• 50:47Speaker 01

  Misappropriation of funds.

• 50:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, and misappropriation of funds and all that. It's, oh, so these set of contractors got sole source contracts and exclusive access to this for internal research and development, where they figure out something, and then sell it back to the government, et cetera, for all these decades. What about my mid-level small business and my contractor, and blah, blah, blah? And so you're gonna, they were afraid that you would see legal challenges going to the Supreme Court in violation of what they call the DFARS, right, the Defense Federal Acquisition Regulations?

• 51:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 51:18Speaker 00

  And. The government would be liable for, who fucking knows, billions of dollars worth of monies that are spent on this to these contractor partners that got in back in the day and like, well, we're not exposing any more people, we're locking it down, and what they call a J and A justification and approval for a sole source contract, this is a risk, national security, like, we can't expose any more people to this. And of course, that also causes a brain drain and group think, and it actually hurts the defense industrial base. But that was the main reason. It wasn't, oh, you know, upcoming millennials that are turning 18 can't handle it. It was like, yeah, we're, we're kind of culpable and kind

• 51:59Speaker 00

  of a fucked up contractual relationship. And, and that's going to be something that the Trump administration is going to have to deal with. It's like, well, how do I reorient the defense industrial base? I mean, this could trigger a golden era of innovation in America, more people get to play, you overtly can take the basic information that's not sensitive, and put it into academia, right? So you have undergraduate, graduate, postdoctoral programs, and you actually create this like more educated workforce to actually benefit national security. But in China doesn't have this issue. They're, they're pulling people from, pick a university in China, Nanjing, whatever university, and they're sucking them into these programs. And, but in America, we don't have that kind of permissive totalitarian environment. So

• 52:44Speaker 01

  Well, in China, they probably don't have the issue with misappropriation of funds and lying to Congress.

• 52:48Speaker 00

  No, CCP baby, you know, do whatever you want.

• 52:51Speaker 01

  They do whatever they want. So they don't have to worry about liability. So this is one of the things that came up in that film, Age of Disclosure, is that you're going to have to make some sort of amnesty program.

• 53:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I'm, I am for that as long it's like use immunity for specific testimony or

• 53:11Speaker 01

  As long as it doesn't cover like this other shit that you're talking about.

• 53:13Speaker 00

  Like, my, and of course, I know who's watching, people clearly that are from this ecosystem. You know, I would, you know, expect that. Like, everybody's been basically good Americans. There's a small cast of characters that have done unspeakable things. I mean, hell, they wanted to fucking kill me. This is like, it's disturbing. And, and you wonder why I had to become a whistleblower. I didn't want to do this shit. But like, I was pushed over the edge to do that. You know, I digress. But like, besides, like, blue collar, really fucked up criminal shits, which, you know, once again, there is a judicial justice process in America, you know, we're not going to do street justice here. We will, you know, take care of that professionally. Like, I took care of the other criminal stuff I found

• 53:57Speaker 00

  out professionally. I'm like, look, I'm, you know, and, and when I was doing that, I mean, I was meeting people body armor armed with colleagues of mine that were, you know, rolling heavy too. And like, it was a very serious part of my investigation. But, yeah, I, I believe in amnesty, but I, I think we need to do it like a truth and reconciliation commission, which was in post apartheid South Africa in the 90s, where you had, you know, some white farmer comes in, it's like, yeah, I murdered a bunch of black people or whatever. And it's like, okay, thank you for telling us that. You're good. You know, don't do it again and move on. I'm, I mean, I'm distilling it down, but that's essentially what the TRC in South Africa was. And I think something like that would be very additive and, and good. Because, I mean, I have friends that run the program. They're, they're great guys.

• 54:42Speaker 00

  They're bros, you know, and gals. And they, you know, were assigned paperwork, you know, it was like, if you, you know, divulge this, it's under penalty of treason, you get eleven worth, or, you know, capital punishment.

• 54:54Speaker 01

  Okay, let's break down what you know, and what you can say. What are these things? And what are they capable of?

• 55:05Speaker 00

  So, there's like physical and non-physical, call it UAP and intelligence we're likely dealing with. So, for example, the orbs, could that be sentient plasmoid? Possibly.

• 55:20Speaker 01

  Sentient plasmoid. So plasma that has consciousness.

• 55:23Speaker 00

  Yeah. In some way, and that could be like, you're seeing the other side of some sort of wormhole, and it's some other intelligence shooting this, like, I'll call it like plasmoidic probe into, you know, our existence. I mean, there's, this is, of course, a theoretical framework. And once again, I don't have a PhD in

• 55:38Speaker 01

  But it's theoretical that there is a life form that is a plasma based life form.

• 55:43Speaker 00

  And there's already papers on the open internet about this. A couple of years ago, ah, what's the title of the, the paper? They writ, they wrote about this possibility. So this is a academic assessment of a possibility of the orbs. Now, could the orbs actually be physical craft, but they have a sheath of plasma around it? Interestingly enough, and OSAP did a defense intelligence reference document on magneto hydrodynamic propulsion, which, if you remember the, the movie The Hunt for Red October, that's the caterpillar drive on the Russian submarine, you know, back in the day. And of course, with MHD,

• 56:23Speaker 00

  you can also do it. You have to use a conductive fluid, either salt, seawater that has salt in it, or you could do it in the air, but you have to create a plasma. And you steer the plasma, it's called a Lorentz force. It's, it's basically of a perpendicular magnetic field, a large amount of electricity, and you can basically, through the Lorentz force, which is like ionic propulsion sort of, control it in the, in the atmosphere as well. And you can, you know, read papers on that, and IEEE, and, and other stuff like that. And so one of the byproducts of an air breathing MHD system is plasma around it. So, depending on the size of the orb, it is conceivable that there's a physical craft behind it as

• 57:07Speaker 00

  well, just by, as an artifact of the propulsion system. Once again, that's a, a theory, I'm sure the program knows, and that will be communicated at a later date. But like, you know, that's, yeah.

• 57:17Speaker 01

  So this theory about sentient plasma, is it the idea that we have a very narrow-minded view of what life can be, and that life, as it evolved in other places, in other parts of the universe?

• 57:34Speaker 00

  Went non-corporeal at some point. Like, the, the meat suit sucks. We're gonna be an energetic

• 57:38Speaker 01

  Like, this is an ultimate expression of both technology and at least enhanced evolution, that eventually consciousness is isolated, or consciousness may be ubiquitous and exists in everything in every, anyway? And that, yeah.

• 57:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, certainly. And I'm not the, the expert. And I would say the, the consciousness theory, I like the Penrose-Hammarov, ORC OR, theory, which is the microtubules, the room temperature. So microtubules are in neurons of the brain, and you have this like room temperature quantum system that can collapse the wave function without an observer. And that's what Roger Penrose and Stuart Hammarov, and I've talked to Hammarov, crazy smart guy. He's an anesthesiologist by training, and Penrose, obviously, is a very famous mathematician and physics legend. And that's how they view consciousness. I'm not saying that's the exact model. I happen to prefer it because it's very trippy and very interesting and does explain spooky action and like telepathy, because, oh, well, if it's just

• 58:40Speaker 00

  a quantum system, then I'm like quantomly entangled. Oh, that makes sense now. Like, why remote viewing and other stuff works.

• 58:46Speaker 01

  Right. Okay. So you have some sort of plasma based intelligence?

• 58:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:54Speaker 01

  And then what else?

• 58:55Speaker 00

  So obviously, there has been the physical craft of all different flavors, like I've talked about it. You know, the Tic Tacs are real, there's eggs, there's different types of discs, there's boot heel sunfish looking things, boomerangs, crescent moon looking craft as well. And obviously, all those have different origins in terms of pilots and whatnot. There's a, there's a little bit of overlap. It's almost like, certain people like the Porsche 911 or Ford Mustang, they kind of build the same shape. And that's probably indicative of the technology of the propulsion system. I'm not an expert in exactly why that is. And, yeah, we've recovered, you know, several, several different

• 59:39Speaker 00

  types. And it's a, it's, once again, it's a taxonomy where it's almost like, like, not all white people look the same, right? Same idea, where you might have like a species per se, but then there's sort of like subsets.

• 59:52Speaker 01

  Right. Now, is there a theory, or is there information based on where these things are from? And that they're different ones are from different places?

• 1:00:03Speaker 00

  There is, but I never got access to that. And even if the information was, because once again, how would you like confirm that as a skeptical former human intelligence officer? You have some sort of NHI communicating to you, oh, I'm from star system X, Y, and Z.

• 1:00:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:00:24Speaker 00

  Cool. Is that denial and deception? You know, activities? Are you misdirecting? You're from somewhere else? So even if they said, they told us, how would you verify that? I mean, there's certainly obviously ways. And, but some of it seems, once again, extraterrestrial is part of the pie here, right? There's a, you know, there's ultra-terrestrial and other things. And I, it does seem like a lot of it's been here for a while. And also seems so similar to us that I have questions. And once again, this isn't rhetorical, I don't know the answer. It's like, well, is this bioengineered? Is this a break from

• 1:01:03Speaker 00

  our tree? Is this some sort of other technology, like chameleon type technology, if you will? I don't, I don't know the answer to that. So I, I think that's

• 1:01:15Speaker 01

  What are the prevailing theories amongst the people that are working on this?

• 1:01:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:18Speaker 01

  Like, do they have answers, or do they just have theories?

• 1:01:22Speaker 00

  I am not certain of that, because I do not have that level of knowledge. And as the government rolls that out, I'm happy to You know, parse that with the American people in public and kind of explain my opinion on things as gaps in information for myself is filled in because I'm not omnipotent. I didn't have full access and I only know what I know. And that's why I've I've treated this with such reverence because even me going public, I'm like, fuck, I don't know what this is going to trigger. Besides my own personal safety, which clearly I was under duress and and I had to even resign my Air Force Commission, didn't even fully retire and I'm trying to get that fixed. I, you know, filed something with the Air Force Board a year ago so I can actually retire

• 1:02:05Speaker 00

  and have my benefits because I, you know, I miss my promotion lieutenant colonel and other stuff. But I digress, but certainly there is such similarity that there was a concern and from a genomic perspective and there was work on that to compare genomes. Unfortunately, I don't know the answer to that and what they found out.

• 1:02:26Speaker 01

  Work to compare genomes from biological samples?

• 1:02:30Speaker 00

  Uh, yeah, dead cadavers. Yeah.

• 1:02:33Speaker 01

  So that's real?

• 1:02:34Speaker 00

  Oh, 100%.

• 1:02:35Speaker 01

  So there are dead?

• 1:02:36Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, I know that for sure.

• 1:02:38Speaker 01

  You, how do you know that for sure?

• 1:02:39Speaker 00

  I got to see the audio visual on that.

• 1:02:42Speaker 01

  You got to see what?

• 1:02:43Speaker 00

  Yeah. So I gotta be a little vague only because I want to protect the sources because it may indicate a specific activity or operation. And these people were very patriotic and they were just dead cadavers in, you know, on the ground because it was a retrieval activity.

• 1:03:01Speaker 01

  You saw them physically or you saw video of them?

• 1:03:04Speaker 00

  Video.

• 1:03:05Speaker 01

  Video?

• 1:03:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:07Speaker 01

  So you saw a dead cadaver that was at a crash?

• 1:03:10Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:03:11Speaker 01

  So they filmed the crash and they filmed these cadavers?

• 1:03:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:17Speaker 01

  How old is this footage?

• 1:03:18Speaker 00

  I don't want to say.

• 1:03:19Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:03:20Speaker 00

  It's contemporary, but I.

• 1:03:21Speaker 01

  It's contemporary.

• 1:03:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, but I don't want to reveal a particular operation because it narrows it down to.

• 1:03:25Speaker 01

  Right, but it's clear. It's not like you're looking at 1950s, black and white.

• 1:03:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:30Speaker 01

  It's clear.

• 1:03:31Speaker 00

  And do know, you know, when I get that kind of information, you know, I'm like, tell me what it is, what what happened? And then I put it out for collection, so to speak, and then I confirm it independently because I was very allergic to any kind of deception, right? Like, because in the in the advent of AI, Sora AI, you can you can create a very realistic. And so I was very anal retentive when I was given documents, audio, visual, et cetera. And I sat on that stuff for like years until I felt comfortable with that not being some sort of limited hangout or deception activity. So, yeah.

• 1:04:06Speaker 01

  What did it look like?

• 1:04:07Speaker 00

  Human looking.

• 1:04:08Speaker 01

  How human?

• 1:04:09Speaker 00

  Very.

• 1:04:10Speaker 01

  Like, like looked like a human or looks similar to a human?

• 1:04:14Speaker 00

  Very, very beautiful and.

• 1:04:18Speaker 01

  Beautiful?

• 1:04:19Speaker 00

  It, and I, I said this.

• 1:04:20Speaker 01

  What color was the skin?

• 1:04:21Speaker 00

  Uh, bluish, white and.

• 1:04:24Speaker 01

  Like avatar?

• 1:04:25Speaker 00

  It wasn't super close. No, no, no, no, no. It like.

• 1:04:28Speaker 01

  Like someone who drowned?

• 1:04:29Speaker 00

  Like a pale sort of albino. And and it's interesting, and I said this in another interview that's not out yet, but and and God willing, this is my last interview for a while, hopefully in pre-disclosure environment, you know? And, uh, uh, General McCaslin, when he was talking to DeLong, and this is public record, Tom's talked about it on, I think, your show and other interviews, where he always told Tom, think of the Greek gods and and, oh, true, you look it up. And and now I kind of understand what he meant, but General McCaslin, who disappeared within a week of Trump giving the the declassification order on UAP in February 2026. There's a lot of reasons why McCaslin's disappearance was very concerning.

• 1:05:11Speaker 01

  Disappeared, how so?

• 1:05:12Speaker 00

  Um, he walked out of his residence in Albuquerque and vanished.

• 1:05:14Speaker 01

  Oh, that's right, that guy. Yeah.

• 1:05:17Speaker 00

  Yeah. And nobody knows and I, you know, I have a relationship, obviously, with justice and nobody knows what fucking happened to the guy. And he like, he left shit home so he couldn't be tracked. I think his phone was left, but you know, one of his firearms was missing. It's like very weird, so.

• 1:05:35Speaker 01

  Right, he left without his phone.

• 1:05:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was one of the weird parts about it.

• 1:05:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, and and and once again, he was going on a trip with like 18 of his friends. He went to REI the day before to get like a medical kit, other supplies. And, I mean, obviously, his wife's discussion about him, the body cam footage is public and, you know, he had some mental health issues, nothing major and and some aging type issues, but she didn't think, you know, he was going to like kill himself or whatever. So, I mean, you never know, and I've had friends, unfortunately, uh, pass away through suicide in the military, but it's very bizarre and it's when, within a week of Trump that coming out and, um, just say I know a lot about General McCaslin.

• 1:06:21Speaker 01

  Well, there's quite a few scientists that were connected to UAP disclosure or UAP potential back engineering projects or mysterious projects.

• 1:06:30Speaker 00

  Possibly, I think.

• 1:06:32Speaker 01

  Do you think there was more like?

• 1:06:33Speaker 00

  To be fair, it was a little overblown and I don't think there was a ton of correlation. Like, one was like a female that worked at Air Force Research Lab when McCaslin was a commander. I think that was one of them. Well, I mean, there's a lot of people that work at Air Force Research Lab. That doesn't mean it's necessarily related to the topic. I, the only one.

• 1:06:50Speaker 01

  Didn't she have, didn't that one particular lady, if it's the same person, didn't she have some sort of research that was on material science?

• 1:06:57Speaker 00

  That sounds correct. I'm not totally conversant on all the people that disappeared. The only one besides McCaslin that was very concerning to me was my Air Force friend that, um, died mysteriously about two years ago. And it's an open investigation, so I won't get into all the gory detail of my assessments. Um, I mean, it's it's binary. It's either a very tragic thing, either self-harm or otherwise, or it was something else. And my friend, uh, his name's Matthew Sullivan, callsign Quake in the Air Force. Him and I were on active duty together. Uh, he was on the program and he was, uh, one of my sources.

• 1:07:41Speaker 00

  And I, and I, once again, I don't name people, but like, unfortunately, has passed, so I want to make that clear.

• 1:07:47Speaker 01

  This video, do you think this will be a part of disclosure? That we'll get to see this video of these dead bodies?

• 1:07:53Speaker 00

  Probably, probably. So there's a, so there's a, there's a lot of audio visual stuff. The problem with the, the, with the, the current climate, like, you're going to have to wheel out the physical evidence too, because people are, the trust in government is so low right now. Like, you could show a video, but people are going to be like, oh, well, that's just the US government fucking with us. And you're going to have to.

• 1:08:12Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:08:13Speaker 00

  Curate a wheel out, literally, like, you know, put it in the Uvar Hazy Center, the Masonian, and then give the biological samples to Eric Weinstein, who I know he wants it.

• 1:08:24Speaker 01

  Why would you give it to him?

• 1:08:27Speaker 00

  Well, he says he has people to to test it.

• 1:08:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I have people to test it too.

• 1:08:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:08:33Speaker 01

  Give it to me?

• 1:08:34Speaker 00

  I'm just, I'm just saying that's.

• 1:08:35Speaker 01

  It's all ridiculous. Like, give it to who?

• 1:08:37Speaker 00

  To make fun of him.

• 1:08:38Speaker 01

  There should be a way that hu- human beings, uh, other than the government, can look at this stuff.

• 1:08:42Speaker 00

  Well, there needs to be an independent verification process.

• 1:08:44Speaker 01

  Right. Now, is this stuff, so this is contemporary, this, this dead body thing? And so this is a fairly recent crash?

• 1:08:55Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:08:56Speaker 01

  And did these things have all the characteristics of a human being? Did they have ears and?

• 1:09:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, as far as I could recall, and it wasn't like ultra, ultra close up.

• 1:09:07Speaker 01

  Did they have hair?

• 1:09:08Speaker 00

  Uh, yeah.

• 1:09:09Speaker 01

  They had hair? What color was their hair?

• 1:09:11Speaker 00

  It was like grayish and all that. It was, the problem is, I don't want to give the nature of the, the video, it wasn't super close up. It was like.

• 1:09:19Speaker 01

  Of course not.

• 1:09:20Speaker 00

  During the operation, so it's not like.

• 1:09:22Speaker 01

  During the operation of retrieval?

• 1:09:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:09:25Speaker 01

  Okay. And then they they had these things. So what is your understanding of what happens to these bodies?

• 1:09:30Speaker 00

  Oh, they're kept for analysis and.

• 1:09:34Speaker 01

  How do they keep them? They freeze them?

• 1:09:36Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, I don't know the exact process. I'm not a biologist, but they do put it in some sort of preservation status, so.

• 1:09:43Speaker 01

  Huh.

• 1:09:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:09:45Speaker 01

  So was that the most compelling thing you saw?

• 1:09:47Speaker 00

  Yes, because, you know, it couples with, you know, both the craft and the alleged, you know, occupants and, you know, there was some other stuff in that, in that area that I gotta be careful talking about because it's so specific that, you know, easily ID the, you know, the patriot that helped me on that. Um, and once again, I want the public to see all this stuff.

• 1:10:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:10:09Speaker 00

  I, you don't, don't take my word for it. Plead with the president to make sure this comes out. He's really courageous to do so and I just, you know, I hope this all comes out.

• 1:10:17Speaker 01

  When you say contemporary, you mean last 20 years, more recent?

• 1:10:20Speaker 00

  I don't even want to characterize it, but it's, it's contemporary.

• 1:10:23Speaker 01

  And then when you say Greek gods, like, did these, these creatures actually look like something special? Like, not just like a, a regular person? You said beautiful?

• 1:10:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, just very oddly, and it's been a while, but I'm just trying to visualize in my mind, it was just very, very beautiful. It was just.

• 1:10:42Speaker 01

  Were they wearing an outfit?

• 1:10:43Speaker 00

  Uh, it looked like it, like some kind of form-fitting thing, but I didn't get a good look at it, unfortunately.

• 1:10:48Speaker 01

  Like spandex?

• 1:10:49Speaker 00

  I don't know, I didn't get a good look at it, honestly.

• 1:10:50Speaker 01

  You didn't?

• 1:10:51Speaker 00

  No, I mean, it was like a, a pan, so.

• 1:10:53Speaker 01

  Okay, so they didn't even focus on the bodies? They're just like, oh, there's a body.

• 1:10:57Speaker 00

  No, because they're, you know, people had a job to do.

• 1:11:00Speaker 01

  Right. Did you worry about that, that that's a psy-op, that you're being shown something that's horseshit?

• 1:11:05Speaker 00

  Well, like I said, I was very careful with that and confirmed it through other sources and methods to make sure it wasn't some sort of hangout from some government element trying to sway me one way or the other and.

• 1:11:15Speaker 01

  So you independently verified that there was an event?

• 1:11:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, I did.

• 1:11:20Speaker 01

  Okay. And then there's footage of this event and in this footage of this event, how many bodies were there?

• 1:11:25Speaker 00

  I think three or four is what I saw. I don't know what the total was.

• 1:11:28Speaker 01

  Did they have gender?

• 1:11:30Speaker 00

  Um, looked amorphous to me, but once again, it was a pan.

• 1:11:33Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:11:33Speaker 00

  Wasn't, yeah.

• 1:11:34Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:11:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:11:35Speaker 01

  Long hair, short hair?

• 1:11:36Speaker 00

  Long.

• 1:11:37Speaker 01

  All of them?

• 1:11:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:11:39Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:11:40Speaker 00

  That I can recall, yeah.

• 1:11:41Speaker 01

  The Greek gods thing is very weird.

• 1:11:43Speaker 00

  It's weird and.

• 1:11:44Speaker 01

  It's a weird comparison, like you stop and think about that, yeah, well, why were the Greek gods? So beautiful.

• 1:11:49Speaker 00

  It's funny you say that, cause like, I think about like, breakaway human, I mean, once again, I'm just, I'm just.

• 1:11:55Speaker 01

  Or maybe even an original civilization that existed before.

• 1:11:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:12:00Speaker 01

  There's more people are leaning in that direction when they start looking at some of the stuff that's underneath the pyramids and some of the weird structures that they're finding all over the earth, like, how, how were these things, we had a whole podcast yesterday about it, it's like, how are these things made? Who made these things?

• 1:12:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, I mean, obviously, I follow Graham Hancock and Randall Carlson, just, you know, casually, and, and I do have,

• 1:12:25Speaker 00

  not fears, but, uh, you know, I have questions about some sort of breakaway human civilization, and that explains some of this. Or it's bioengineered, cause like, for them to develop naturally, say off planet, say if it's extraterrestrial, that it looks almost dead ringer like us, like, that doesn't make any sense to me.

• 1:12:43Speaker 01

  Well, does it make sense if we're engineered? Then it makes sense, so.

• 1:12:47Speaker 00

  That is, that is certainly a possibility.

• 1:12:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:49Speaker 00

  You know, I have questions about that, too.

• 1:12:51Speaker 01

  This is a, this is what Bob Lazar believes, I had a long conversation with him about that. He thinks that human beings are a product of genetic, of some sort of manipulation.

• 1:13:02Speaker 00

  And I think hypothetically, if that ended up being verified in some way, shape, or form, you know, how, how does that change humanity? What does it mean to be human? And I, I think there's a lot of deep human sovereignty and other questions uh, on that, if that ends up being the case.

• 1:13:17Speaker 01

  Well, it gets weird, because we're willing to believe that an omnipotent god created us out of nothing. That's cool. But the idea that we were visited by what's essentially almost godlike in their powers and abilities, some creature from somewhere else, or some beings, some super hyper intelligent being from somewhere else, and they manipulated us, that bothers us.

• 1:13:41Speaker 00

  I know, and I.

• 1:13:42Speaker 01

  It's weird.

• 1:13:42Speaker 00

  My biggest regret was not getting access to like, the biological assessment reports and stuff like that, I was getting enough spears thrown my way, and I was, you know, in literal danger, so I unfortunately wasn't able to kind of, you know, um, get access to that stuff.

• 1:13:56Speaker 01

  Have you talked to anybody who did get access to it?

• 1:13:59Speaker 00

  Um, not on that side of the program in terms of like, the scientists analyzing the bodies, no, I just, I know people that are good friends of mine, that were on retrievals and saw them as well in person, and, once again, I'm like comparing, like, did, did you, did it look like this? Did it look like this? Did this happen? Was it this type of craft?

• 1:14:18Speaker 01

  Do they vary in terms of what they saw?

• 1:14:20Speaker 00

  Yes, and, uh, some of my colleagues saw them alive as well. Yeah.

• 1:14:27Speaker 01

  What did they see alive? Like, the Greek god looking ones?

• 1:14:30Speaker 00

  Uh, no, uh, it's the pop culture, I can't, I want to talk about this, uh, the pop culture. Uh, reptilian looking.

• 1:14:39Speaker 01

  Reptilian?

• 1:14:40Speaker 00

  The grays, yes, as well, those are real. Once again, the aerial school phenomenon in nineteen ninety-four, very well documented mass sighting.

• 1:14:49Speaker 01

  Is that Zimbabwe?

• 1:14:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, near a uranium mine.

• 1:14:52Speaker 01

  Ooh.

• 1:14:53Speaker 00

  And they saw small gray beings coming out of a lenticular disc craft, once again, this is why, it's almost like, not that shocking, it's like, yeah, they look like that, no shit.

• 1:15:04Speaker 04

  Traditional banks are making it harder than ever to secure a small business loan. That's why thousands of business owners trust Cardiff for same-day funding. With over two decades of expertise, business owners keep voting Cardiff, America's favorite small business lender. Apply now for up to five hundred thousand dollars in same-day business funding at cardiff.co/rogan. Again, that's cardiff.co/rogan. Cardiff, borrow better.

• 1:15:34Speaker 01

  This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. It may be hard to believe, but identity theft is the number one crime in America. Right now, millions of people are dealing with stolen accounts, fraudulent loans, and the exhausting process of proving who they are to banks, creditors, and credit bureaus. LifeLock helps you fight back. They monitor your personal and financial information, alerting you when something looks suspicious. And if identity theft does happen, LifeLock has live, US-based experts who step in and fix it, guaranteed, or your money back. Don't fight that battle alone, get LifeLock identity theft protection.

• 1:16:15Speaker 01

  Visit lifelock.com and save up to thirty percent your first year with promo code JRE. That's promo code JRE, or go to lifelock.com/jre for thirty percent off, terms apply. Well, that story's been going on for a long time, and that iconic, the problem with like, iconic imagery is that now you have it in your head, what to expect. And, like, that was like, from the movie Contact, remember the movie Contact? Like, it showed itself.

• 1:16:47Speaker 00

  Great movie, great movie. I know my boy Amar, I got him hooked on that movie, he watches it like, every quarter.

• 1:16:53Speaker 01

  It's a phenomenal movie. But there's a scene in the movie where the alien shows itself as Jodie Foster's dad.

• 1:17:01Speaker 00

  I know.

• 1:17:01Speaker 01

  Because it's something that she could handle.

• 1:17:03Speaker 00

  And that's what, it's funny you say that, that's what, if they're bioengineered, then that makes sense, because of that. Ease of contact, ease of communication, also less ontologically shocking, it's familiar.

• 1:17:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:17:15Speaker 00

  And, and I think as this rolls out, I think the American people need to think about, like, okay, well, if, you know, I'm presented with this reality, how would I react? You know, I, I just think of them personally, it's like, it's like my West Virginian cousins, you know, it's like, a different part of the family, you know, but, but I'm cool with them, and, uh, I'll chill, I'll chill with them, you know, whatever, and, hey, hey, I'm a nerd, like, do you know how bad I want to just like, hang out with them?

• 1:17:41Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, me too.

• 1:17:43Speaker 00

  Like.

• 1:17:43Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:17:44Speaker 00

  Not that I have like, uh, personal bias for President Trump to do this, but like, just like any American, I like, I want to know more.

• 1:17:50Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:17:51Speaker 00

  I want to meet them, I want to communicate, I want to.

• 1:17:53Speaker 01

  Well, I think it's just, it's wrong for some people to have access to this information, because I, I think this is different than any other kind of secret information.

• 1:18:03Speaker 00

  I know.

• 1:18:03Speaker 01

  I think it's weight, and it's significance and impact on the human race in general.

• 1:18:10Speaker 01

  I, I mean, I demand, I, I, we should know, you shouldn't, there shouldn't be a group of unelected bureaucrats and defense contractors that have access to this stuff, and the general public doesn't, so they have a completely different map of the world

• 1:18:26Speaker 00

  I know.

• 1:18:27Speaker 01

  than we do.

• 1:18:28Speaker 00

  I know, and I just think about the unfortunate lies, and how society has progressed over the last several decades, and where we could have been if this was handled back in the fifty, sixties, and seventies.

• 1:18:38Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:18:38Speaker 00

  And, once again, it shouldn't even be me doing this, like, I saw a little bit of crazy shit, I learned some stuff, I met with some of the most senior people in government to confirm all this, you know, at the highest, highest, highest level, and

• 1:18:52Speaker 00

  it's me, like, I'm just a dude, like, I'm, I was a, you know, major in the Air Force, and, you know, mid-level senior civilian in the IC, but unfortunately, uh, I got stuck with this, and it wouldn't have happened unless the small crew, you know, honestly pushed me over the edge, and, you know, I, I was in unbelievable duress, and I ended up having to go public, so.

• 1:19:14Speaker 01

  So, tell me more about these reptilians that your friend encountered, they were alive.

• 1:19:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:19:19Speaker 01

  So they were alive post-crash?

• 1:19:21Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:19:23Speaker 01

  Why do these things keep fucking crashing?

• 1:19:25Speaker 00

  So, some of it is, um, NHI versus NHI.

• 1:19:30Speaker 01

  What?

• 1:19:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:19:32Speaker 01

  They war in the sky, isn't that in the?

• 1:19:35Speaker 00

  You think, it's like, wouldn't they get along, they're so advanced, but, uh, the, we have records of them fucking around with each other.

• 1:19:42Speaker 01

  Is that in the Mahabharata, or the Bhagavad Gita? There's, there's like, talk about sky wars in ancient Hindu texts.

• 1:19:49Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, in the Vedic texts, the blue people, and, uh, I know that's why you asked blue. I don't recall them being that blue, but, you know.

• 1:19:57Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:19:58Speaker 00

  I got a short little look on like.

• 1:19:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, when they're alive, they're darker.

• 1:20:02Speaker 00

  Well, it, that is true, there's like, a post-mortem change in their affect.

• 1:20:07Speaker 01

  People, that's what happens with people.

• 1:20:08Speaker 00

  That is true, cause, you know, as they were struggling and then died, obviously their affect changed, and, you know, weird shit, so.

• 1:20:16Speaker 01

  This friend that encountered, first of all, the, we'll go to the, the Greek god people first.

• 1:20:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:20:22Speaker 01

  What did their craft look like?

• 1:20:24Speaker 00

  Uh, boomerang, crescent moon, usually. Not all the time, it's kind of like, once I go back, some people like to drive the Porsche nine eleven. Uh, that tends to be not all the time, but that's what they like to roll up in.

• 1:20:40Speaker 01

  They, they, they talk about them as the tall whites?

• 1:20:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:20:44Speaker 01

  Were they tall? Were they large?

• 1:20:46Speaker 00

  Looked tall to me, I didn't have like.

• 1:20:48Speaker 01

  Hard to tell, because you don't.

• 1:20:49Speaker 00

  I didn't have a ground reference, really, I would say at least human size, they could be like.

• 1:20:55Speaker 01

  Very similar to humans to you.

• 1:20:57Speaker 00

  They could be my big ass is six-six, but like, the, they looked big.

• 1:21:01Speaker 01

  Similar to humans.

• 1:21:03Speaker 00

  I think so, and there might be taller, once again, I'm sure there's other stuff I don't know about, I'm sure there's other variants of them too, that look more towards like, the classic, um, what is it in ufology, like Nordic, or, you know, tall whites?

• 1:21:17Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 1:21:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, and that are probably even taller, if some of those experiencer stories are true, which, once again, as long as that source is credible, that might be a thing, so I think we need to be prepared to kind of that being a thing, I don't know.

• 1:21:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, that makes sense.

• 1:21:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:21:34Speaker 01

  Now, the reptilian craft, what did that thing look like?

• 1:21:38Speaker 00

  Uh, that one is Tic Tac looking.

• 1:21:42Speaker 01

  Uh-oh.

• 1:21:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:21:43Speaker 01

  I was hoping they were the cool ones.

• 1:21:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:21:45Speaker 01

  The reptilian ones are the ones that everyone's terrified of.

• 1:21:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, and, and once again, like, we're, we're doing like, and of course, it's not always the Tic Tac, once again, kind of like what I said, but like, that tends to be them. Um, from what I understand, obviously, hopefully I'm not wrong, but, um, you know, pretty good sourcing on that.

• 1:22:03Speaker 00

  When you see like, um, malevolent behavior, right, it's like, well, that's a humanistic lens, you're seeing like, a animal lash out in capti- captivity kind of thing, or they're in duress, they're having an emotional experience, et cetera, and it's like, you know, are they actually scary, or is it just because of the situations we've been in with them, and so we're kind of biased, and, and all that, so.

• 1:22:23Speaker 01

  Of course. And so, these reptilians, what did they look like?

• 1:22:27Speaker 00

  No, I've never seen them personally.

• 1:22:29Speaker 01

  Your friend described this.

• 1:22:30Speaker 00

  It's like, very, almost like, um, seven foot tall plus, uh, sort of gorilla looking, scaly, scaly skin, though, and.

• 1:22:41Speaker 01

  Reptile gorillas?

• 1:22:42Speaker 00

  But there's multiple types, there's ones that are, are more humanoid looking, so.

• 1:22:48Speaker 01

  There's multiple types of reptilians?

• 1:22:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I'm not an expert on that one, that's, once again, I never saw it in person to get the exact, uh, You know.

• 1:22:56Speaker 01

  If there's a artist rendition.

• 1:22:59Speaker 00

  I'm looking already.

• 1:23:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:23:01Speaker 02

  Of course you are.

• 1:23:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, and once again, it it sounds.

• 1:23:03Speaker 02

  Keywords for this whole night.

• 1:23:04Speaker 00

  It sounds so schizo, like even for me.

• 1:23:06Speaker 01

  It does, gorilla with scales.

• 1:23:08Speaker 00

  Ex-deep state intel officer, I'm like, I cannot fucking believe I'm talking about this shit on Joe Rogan.

• 1:23:13Speaker 01

  Scary, scaly gorilla.

• 1:23:15Speaker 00

  I know, and I, I, I mean, it sounds schizo, and it's like coming from somebody like me, you know, who, you know, is a credible person and has been in government, it's like, I'm gonna be that guy, I'm gonna be that guy. And then like, down the road, people will review Joe Rogan, and he's like, that motherfucker, we thought he was crazy, but, what do you know, you know, it's true.

• 1:23:33Speaker 01

  Well, of course, if there are things from somewhere else, you you're gonna sound crazy describing any of them.

• 1:23:38Speaker 00

  Cause it's, it's so outside my experience, cause I never had some kind of woo thing growing up, or some sort of interaction with the phenomenon. So it, it, it, it feels so outside my personal comfort level and experience, because I'm, I'm relying on the personal experience of others, you know, audiovisual stuff, and it still feels like I'm watching a movie, like, it's like, is that, is it real? I mean, I know it is, but like, it's, I have a cognitive dissonance a little bit, you know, so.

• 1:24:05Speaker 01

  And how are you able to watch this video? Do they have to put you into a secret room?

• 1:24:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, I won't get into the exact way it went down, but, uh, uh, we'll just say it was, uh, kinda sketchy, but, uh, it, it, to, to keep everybody safe.

• 1:24:18Speaker 01

  And so, there apparently is NHI versus NHI warfare.

• 1:24:24Speaker 00

  We've, we've documented that.

• 1:24:26Speaker 01

  Documented it.

• 1:24:27Speaker 00

  In collection, well, what we perceive as warfare, so, unless it's some.

• 1:24:32Speaker 01

  Conflict.

• 1:24:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, it looks like conflict, it smells like conflict, is it some other kind of weird shit, I don't know, and there's maybe an assessment on that, but it.

• 1:24:39Speaker 01

  And, um, when this reptilian craft crashed, the assumption was that it was some sort of conflict? Cause I would imagine if.

• 1:24:47Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 1:24:48Speaker 01

  That they're the ones you'd have to worry about.

• 1:24:50Speaker 00

  Cause there was dead, uh, dead grays there too.

• 1:24:53Speaker 01

  Oh. So the grays and the reptilians were duking it out?

• 1:24:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, I guess.

• 1:24:58Speaker 01

  Yo.

• 1:24:58Speaker 00

  I guess, you know, you know, I know the people who were there, and.

• 1:25:02Speaker 01

  This sounds fucking insane, David.

• 1:25:04Speaker 00

  It sounds fucking crazy, and, and once again, I don't wanna get in too many specifics, cause this is a very unique, there's a couple of unique retrievals out there, that, to protect the innocent and people that have risked their fucking lives, cause a, a lot of the people that, uh, came to you with that kind of information, I mean, they were physically threatened like me and, and all that, and, and so like, me going public was taking it for the team, cause I was able to create this umbrella of, uh, tacit, you know, protection in case, somebody got fucked with. Now unfortunately, you know, my, my friend Matt, who knows what happened to him, but, um, you know, tragically, he died, you know, mysteriously, so.

• 1:25:40Speaker 01

  Now, these reptilians, what was their craft like?

• 1:25:44Speaker 00

  Oh, like I said, the.

• 1:25:45Speaker 01

  The tic-tac.

• 1:25:46Speaker 00

  Tic-tac stuff.

• 1:25:46Speaker 01

  And was their craft crashed into the ground, like, broken up?

• 1:25:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:25:51Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:25:51Speaker 00

  It was like wedged into.

• 1:25:53Speaker 01

  Like, had it been hit with something?

• 1:25:54Speaker 00

  Um, I don't remember exactly what happened in that regard, but it did crash, so, and I don't wanna misspeak on what exactly happened, so.

• 1:26:04Speaker 01

  And how many times has this happened, if you had to guess?

• 1:26:08Speaker 00

  I don't know the total number of like, uh, adversarial conflict crashes, but, I mean, it seems to be at least, a dozen or two, I don't know.

• 1:26:17Speaker 01

  So at least a dozen or two adversarial crashes, and then there's the high-altitude nuclear tests, right? You're aware of those, right?

• 1:26:27Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:26:28Speaker 01

  Okay, so, there's been a lot of speculation that during those high-altitude nuclear tests, that crafts that didn't know it was coming got rocked. Do you know anything about that?

• 1:26:41Speaker 00

  That's an area that I'll let the government handle, that's cause it gets into vulnerabilities and, and, and what the US has figured out, so that just gets a sensitive area, but, that's something I'm sure that'll come out in this process, cause.

• 1:26:55Speaker 01

  So you can't talk about that, is that what you're saying?

• 1:26:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, just because it gets into, um, US capabilities and what we figured out in terms of, uh.

• 1:27:02Speaker 01

  Well, this is all like from the 50s, right?

• 1:27:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, but we still got nukes and we still got, uh, those kind of weapons, you know, stashed away, so.

• 1:27:09Speaker 01

  You're aware of those, um, uh, it was, uh, what, what was it, Jamie? Was it, um, a telescope? That they were, they, they were taking photographs of the stars, and they were doing it with, uh, do you know what I'm talking about?

• 1:27:24Speaker 02

  All the, the dots popped up thing that, I guess, that's like two or three weeks ago.

• 1:27:28Speaker 01

  Right, we talked about that a couple of weeks ago. It was an observatory, and the observatory has these old plates, of, uh, images that they took of the sky.

• 1:27:37Speaker 00

  Oh, is this Beatrice's work, the Vasco?

• 1:27:40Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:27:41Speaker 00

  Um, yeah, I read it, very interesting, and, um, it's hard to make an exact conclusion if, if it's UAP, but it's, really great, original scholarship, and I applaud her for, for doing that.

• 1:27:52Speaker 01

  But there appeared to be moving, uh, reflective things that were outside of our atmosphere, that they were taking images of. They, they were not static, they were not stars.

• 1:28:03Speaker 00

  Pre-Sputnik too, that was the important thing.

• 1:28:05Speaker 01

  Yes, pre-Sputnik, very important, because there, there was no satellites at the time, this was images that they took of the sky that showed things that were reflective, that seemed to be metallic, allegedly.

• 1:28:16Speaker 00

  And if I remember her paper correctly, with her co-authors, it also, there were cluster concentrations over sensitive nuclear facilities and nuclear testing, um, uh, uh, chronological, temporal correlation as well.

• 1:28:31Speaker 01

  So, data shows unidentified lights in archival astronomy images were 68% more likely to be imaged 24 hours after a nuclear weapons test.

• 1:28:39Speaker 00

  Like I was saying, yeah.

• 1:28:40Speaker 01

  Right, so this is chronologically, like, we have these nuclear weapons tests, including these high-altitude detonations like Op- Operation Starfish Prime.

• 1:28:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:28:50Speaker 01

  We detonate these things, and then all of a sudden, these crafts start showing up like, hey, what are these fucking crazy monkeys up to?

• 1:28:58Speaker 00

  It does seem like there was a heightened amount of activity once we started testing nuclear weapons.

• 1:29:03Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:29:03Speaker 00

  Obviously, this phenomenon's old, it's interacted with man in antiquity, you know, Jacques Vallée's scholarship on that, Passport to Magnonia and that, but, yeah.

• 1:29:11Speaker 01

  That's why the names of our rooms at the comedy club are Fat Man and Little Boy.

• 1:29:15Speaker 00

  Oh, nice, yeah, yeah.

• 1:29:16Speaker 01

  Because that's what ushered, cause it's the comedy mothership, it's UFOs based thing.

• 1:29:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, if you go to the Air Force Museum, um, they have the, the Enola Gay there, I think, is that right?

• 1:29:25Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:29:25Speaker 00

  It's one of the planes.

• 1:29:26Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 1:29:27Speaker 00

  My alma mater's gonna crucify me for getting that Air Force history wrong at the Air Force Museum in Dayton, Ohio, but.

• 1:29:32Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:29:33Speaker 00

  It's pretty cool. They have a mock-up of the, the Little Boy and Fat Man bombs, so you can see how big they were, you're like, holy shit, that was big.

• 1:29:40Speaker 01

  One of the things that Lazar said is that one of the objects they were working with was very old, and he said that they had somehow, that it, it was told to him that it was retrieved from an archaeological dig.

• 1:29:54Speaker 00

  I don't know about his specific story and his exposure, but, uh, the archaeological thing, that, that is a thing, yeah.

• 1:30:01Speaker 01

  Are you aware of the labyrinth at Hawara in Egypt?

• 1:30:06Speaker 00

  No, what is that?

• 1:30:07Speaker 01

  Okay, so.

• 1:30:09Speaker 00

  Is that the one where there's a metallic object that they've, they, but, but the what's-his-face won't let people go in it, from the Egyptian?

• 1:30:14Speaker 01

  Well, it's, it's complicated, it's a little more complicated than won't let them, but there's definitely resistance to it. So these labyrinths, this, this incredible compound that's underground was documented by Herodotus, and he said it was greater than Giza. He said it was much more spectacular construction.

• 1:30:32Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 1:30:32Speaker 01

  So now they know from ground penetrating radar that these, these cavities in the ground, these symmetrical rooms exist, they know where they are, and they know why they're flooded. So they're flooded because during the 1960s, they built a dam to divert water for agriculture, and when they did, they changed the water table, and it flooded this labyrinth area. And when they used this ground penetrating radar, and, um, I think it's radiotomography and a bunch of the different ways of. One of the things they found was a 40-meter-long metallic object that's in some sort of, is it, is it in an atrium? Like, it's in some sort of a large room?

• 1:31:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, I've heard of, I've seen a video about this, you're, you're recalling some stuff I've seen just casually online.

• 1:31:22Speaker 01

  Like, just imagine if that's what that is.

• 1:31:26Speaker 00

  It's like, it's like the movie Stargate, with Kurt Russell.

• 1:31:29Speaker 01

  If these people had been worshiping this craft, and so much so that they built this incredible temple, and put it in the center of their temple. It's a 40-meter-long metallic object, and the metal, apparently, is of unknown origin. Like, they don't know what the metal is. It's not registering as copper, it's not registering as steel, or, or, or iron, rather. They don't know what it is.

• 1:31:54Speaker 00

  Interesting, interesting.

• 1:31:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's fucking weird.

• 1:31:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I'm, I won't be surprised if some ancient civilizations were essentially cargo cults, you know, for these visitors. I, that is most likely true in many cases, not all, and of course, that gets into theological, areas that are touchy, but I, I do think that that's probably the case.

• 1:32:15Speaker 01

  The central object is hard to classify. It appears metallic, not stone or wood. I named it Dippy after the giant Dipl- Diplotica skeleton in the Hints, Hintsie Hall of London's Natural History Museum. It could be anything, its shape resembles those tic-tac hard mints. It might also be an upright disc, or even a colossal shen ring, the ancient Egyptian symbol representing the eternal cycle of creation. The big job object alone, big object alone, rather, raises profound questions. How did it get there? Why is it there?

• 1:32:50Speaker 01

  Uh, so, like, show him some of the, uh, artistic recreations of what it looked like underneath the ground. So this is all, you know, like I said, Herodotus wrote about this thousands of years ago, but now, it's documented that these chambers and these pathways actually exist. And there had been people that had studied at least the upper surface levels of it as recently as like the 1800s.

• 1:33:14Speaker 00

  Hmm, interesting.

• 1:33:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that, you know, through all, like, a lot of Egypt, there's a water under Giza, there's water under the pyramids, there's water under, you know, a lot of that stuff is flooded, and so this is what it looked like. This is all underground.

• 1:33:33Speaker 01

  It's fucking crazy. Because if this, along with Filippo Biondi's work, where it shows using that same satellite radiotomography, that there's some sort of structure underneath the pyramids that goes over a kilometer into the ground.

• 1:33:51Speaker 00

  Is there easy access, or is it just like a government denial, the Antiquities Bureau, whatever they call it, and you just walk in it?

• 1:33:57Speaker 01

  Well, I think there's been some progress in terms of allowing exploration. And I don't know the extent of it, but I know that a lot of people are very hopeful that that progress is going to be achieved, like they're opening up this research. And look, this would be a giant boom to the tourism industry.

• 1:34:17Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:34:17Speaker 01

  I mean, that's what they want. I mean, Egypt probably survives, I don't know what percentage of their economy in Giza is tourism, but it has to be massive.

• 1:34:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, and you always hear interesting stories. You know, I have an eclectic group of colleagues, and you hear interesting stories. Is it the Queen's Chamber, the granite pillbox? And people have had interesting experiences in there, too. And, uh...

• 1:34:40Speaker 01

  Well, the King's Chamber, that sarcophagus?

• 1:34:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's that like granite box.

• 1:34:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, the big perfectly cut granite box that also, I think it mirrors the exact dimensions of the Ark of the Covenant.

• 1:34:52Speaker 00

  Interesting. Interesting. That's crazy. But I know people who've laid in it, because they have to kind of pay the guard.

• 1:34:59Speaker 01

  Oh, boy.

• 1:35:00Speaker 00

  It's like off-hours.

• 1:35:00Speaker 01

  And what happens?

• 1:35:01Speaker 00

  And they just have like a weird transcendental experience. I mean, it's kind of woo. Once again, I've never experienced something like that.

• 1:35:06Speaker 01

  I'll pay the guards. Let me lie down there, bro.

• 1:35:08Speaker 00

  That's a thing. That's a thing. I'll let you know who to talk to offline.

• 1:35:12Speaker 01

  How much do you think it costs to lay in this box?

• 1:35:14Speaker 00

  Eh, maybe, I don't know.

• 1:35:15Speaker 01

  Couple hundred bucks?

• 1:35:16Speaker 00

  Egypt, twenty grand, maybe?

• 1:35:18Speaker 01

  Twenty grand? Whoa. Yeah, twenty grand, you could like, sleep there.

• 1:35:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:35:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, um, it's very strange, because the structures themselves are incredibly strange. You know, the structures themselves are so immense and so complex, and they're, the methods of construction are completely unknown. And just the symmetry and the, the, the precision of the engineering is beyond comprehension for people that lived at the very, the very, the most recent it could be is 4,500 years ago.

• 1:35:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:35:48Speaker 01

  And a lot of these people think it's far older than that.

• 1:35:50Speaker 00

  And, and we're finding that. I've been watching some of Graham Hancock's stuff. You just look at these like megalithic architecture that's older than you think, the stuff in Turkey and, and the United States as well, in Ohio and, um, Mississippi.

• 1:36:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:04Speaker 00

  And it's like, and they're finding all these pyramid structures using synthetic aperture radar. And I, so I am casually following it, and it, it does seem like we don't really even know our own history. And I think with all this coming out, there's going to be a huge rewiring of a lot of our ancient and modern history, so.

• 1:36:22Speaker 01

  Well, that's where it gets really weird. Um, you know, Rep. Paulina Luna was on the podcast.

• 1:36:27Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:36:28Speaker 01

  She was talking to me about the Book of Enoch.

• 1:36:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:36:31Speaker 01

  And I hadn't read it. She's like, you have to read it. And I've read it twice now. And I'm like, what in the fuck are they talking about? Like, the Book of Enoch, which was also found with the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Khmer and it, it refers to the watchers who came down and mated with daughters and created this race of giants. And it's like, what? This episode is brought to you by The Farmer's Dog. Here's a fun fact. Research shows that dogs who maintain a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer on average than dogs who are overweight. Isn't that wild? And also kind of obvious at the same time? So why is feeding vague scoops of ultra-processed kibble still the status quo for most dog owners?

• 1:37:13Speaker 01

  Healthy alternatives exist, and trust me, I know. I buy one, The Farmer's Dog. I use it for both my dogs. They love it. They eat it up quick. It smells good to them. It smells good to me. It's human-grade food. The Farmer's Dog makes fresh food for dogs, and my dogs love it. Their recipes are made with real meat and fresh vegetables that are gently cooked to retain vital nutrients. They also portion out the meals to your dog's nutritional needs, which helps avoid overfeeding and makes weight management easier. And isn't getting more time with our four-legged best friends something every dog owner wants? The answer to that is yes, obviously.

• 1:37:53Speaker 01

  So try The Farmer's Dog today and get 50% off your first box of fresh, healthy food. Plus, get free shipping. Just go to thefarmersdog.com/rogan. This offer is for new customers only. This episode is brought to you by Visible. As fall hits, we enter another season of change. Time to shift gears, drop the dead weight, and upgrade the wardrobe for the drop in temperature. But one thing that doesn't need to change? Your phone. The smartest upgrade this season isn't a new phone. It's a better wireless plan. Switch to Visible, the ultimate wireless hack. You get unlimited 5G data and unlimited hotspot powered by Verizon for just $25 a month.

• 1:38:38Speaker 01

  That means keeping the phone you already have, ditching your overpriced phone bill, and pocketing some savings for yourself. All the perks of big wireless for half the cost. Switch today at visible.com. The Visible plan starts at just $25 a month. Or get the premium Visible Plus Pro Plan and save $10 on your first month with promo code ROGEN. Terms apply. See visible.com for plan features and network management details.

• 1:39:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, and you think is like, now when you're, when all this comes out, was that actually literal?

• 1:39:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:39:12Speaker 00

  And of course, the Bible Council and I see it was more of a political document before secular government. And, you know, they got together like, what are all the different books that we can agree upon that are good?

• 1:39:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, what gets into the canon. And that's the thing about the Book of Enoch is that it was, it was not put in there because it didn't jive with the Torah.

• 1:39:29Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 1:39:29Speaker 01

  Yes, which is like, okay, you fuckers. Imagine if that was in the Bible. Like, if you go to church and you read about the watchers.

• 1:39:38Speaker 00

  Well, there's actually a lot of interesting stuff in the Bible. Like, obviously, that's another thing, like, of course, with, um, you know, I'm Catholic by growing up, CCD confirmation, did the whole thing as a kid. And you see a lot of outspoken exorcists and other people right now saying, well, all this, uh, alien stuff is just diabolic deception and demons and, you know, all that kind of stuff. And I, and I respect that opinion, and I do think like, what you perceive as a demon is a certain class of non-human or anomalous intelligence. And, and that is certainly a thing, but the, the whole ecosystem is not demonic. And, but the Bible's interesting, because, once again, it doesn't discuss about other life elsewhere.

• 1:40:21Speaker 00

  Like, it doesn't talk about bacteria and viruses, that those were unseen, we cohabitated with bacteria and viruses until the invention of the microscope, whatever that was, 1800s or, or whatnot. But if you go into Leviticus and Deuteronomy, you will notice these like cleansing ritualistic stuff, also like, hey, you can't have your toilet in your living area and all that. And if you look in those books of the Bible, wait, that's like modern sanitization guidance. So it's funny that like, the Bible has encoded within its, um, kind of like best practices before man would even understand what a, you know, viruses and bacteria are. And I just find that that's very interesting, based on when it was written.

• 1:41:03Speaker 00

  And it does show that there was some sort of higher intelligence kind of influencing the authorship. I just, yeah.

• 1:41:08Speaker 01

  Either that, or in, the civilization that was writing the Bible was a recreation of civilization that had been destroyed in a cataclysm.

• 1:41:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean...

• 1:41:17Speaker 01

  That, I think that, especially when you look at the pyramids, and you look at some of these other ancient structures like Lebanon, Baalbek, they, they, they don't make sense. And it seems to me that there was probably something super sophisticated a long time ago, and it got wiped out. And then what we get from these ancient texts is probably oral tradition passed on through hundreds, if not thousands of years, and then people writing things down and people remembering these stories. I think one of the weirdest, uh, books of the Bible is the Book of Ezekiel.

• 1:41:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:41:51Speaker 01

  Because the Book of Ezekiel is one all the UFO people turn to.

• 1:41:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:41:54Speaker 01

  Because there's that, the, a great cloud with brightness around it and fire flashing forth continually, and in the midst of the fire, as it were, gleaming metal. And from the midst of the craft came the likeness of four living creatures.

• 1:42:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:42:08Speaker 01

  Like, what?

• 1:42:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:42:09Speaker 01

  The creatures darted to and fro like a flash of lightning. What?

• 1:42:14Speaker 00

  Exactly, in the the manna machine, the cloud, the fall, the Israel.

• 1:42:18Speaker 01

  Wheel within a wheel. There's weird shit in the book of Ezekiel. Like, that is a very, very weird story. Like, what are they describing? It sounds like a spaceship. It sounds like a ship comes down from the sky with immense power, frightens everyone, freaks everyone out, and these entities are inside the craft.

• 1:42:37Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I think a lot of it, once again, they're interpreting it based on their vernacular at the time, their understanding. And I I remember I was at, two years ago, it was at Capitol Reef National Park in Utah, and there's petroglyphs there, and some of them kind of look like aliens.

• 1:42:52Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 1:42:52Speaker 00

  And and you're like, well, is that literally what they're seeing? Perhaps. And and I don't know the answer to that. That's not my expertise, but I feel like a lot of the stuff in ancient tradition is literally what they saw. It's not necessarily allegory or fable. Some of it may be for for teaching lessons, but I have a feeling a lot of it was actually literal.

• 1:43:12Speaker 01

  I have a feeling a lot of it was literal as well, because most people, first of all, A, couldn't read, and B, couldn't write. And so writing fiction seems like a fruitless pursuit. It seems like writing history so that you can remember what happened, at least a version of it that's palatable.

• 1:43:31Speaker 00

  Like ancient sumer and the Anunnaki and all that, and it's like, well, why did they make up that, just for fun?

• 1:43:36Speaker 01

  Right, they all had kooky stories about being visited. And, you know, when you're telling me about these things that look like Greek gods.

• 1:43:45Speaker 00

  That's how I described it, and that's how clearly what what General McCaslin was hinting to Tom DeLonge. And once again, I got, you know.

• 1:43:52Speaker 01

  Well, doesn't it make sense that the Greek gods did exist? Like, I mean, not not that they did exist literally, but that like, when they talked about the Greek gods, they talked about them in this manner, looking like that. And then you actually find a craft with these things that look like us.

• 1:44:09Speaker 00

  Conquistadors were treated like that in the 1500s, right?

• 1:44:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, right.

• 1:44:13Speaker 00

  Literally white Caucasian gods.

• 1:44:17Speaker 01

  Bearded, yeah, with horses. They rode horses. They couldn't figure out what the fuck was going on with that.

• 1:44:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I'm glad we talked about it. I mean, I think that is probably the most uncomfortable stuff for me to talk about, but it's also something that the public needs to wrap their mind around and understand that this is a thing and kind of start processing that kind of reality.

• 1:44:36Speaker 01

  Well, and then.

• 1:44:36Speaker 00

  As much as it's coming from me, but I mean, the federal government, you know, if Trump really is serious and Stephen Miller, you know, does his thing with this, I think all this all this will come out in a hopefully responsible way.

• 1:44:49Speaker 01

  So there they have a schedule that's based on the concept that people need to have this information trickle slowly so that they can adjust.

• 1:44:58Speaker 00

  There was suggestions in the past, if the president did something. I am not aware at this point what the what the plan is in that regard right now, though.

• 1:45:10Speaker 01

  But there is some sort of an idea that this should be trickled out. That this shouldn't be like, boom, here it is, let's lay it out.

• 1:45:20Speaker 00

  The president truly wants it out, and obviously Bob Bigelow met with the president as well in February 26th, before he made an announcement. And I mean, he told the president, hey, you need to admit that there's NHI, and we've, you know, recovered stuff, and we're looking at it in a semi-formal announcement to start anesthetizing the public. And you could find that interview online that Bob did, I think it was with George Knapp on a on a podcast. So it it's not just myself advocating for this, there's other people. I don't even know Bob Bigelow, and, you know, I he did us a solid by pushing the president to help make that decision. I mean, there's a lot of things that went on behind the scenes, and, you know, I work in mysterious ways, and I I won't divulge certain relationships in certain rooms I've been in, but

• 1:46:03Speaker 00

  it took a village, and, you know, I'm proud that, you know, the time I spent with Representative Burleson was very fruitful. We did a lot of stuff behind the scenes, and I think Burleson's gonna go down as a very courageous man, and it's and I say that not just because he was my boss. I mean, he was probably the most forward-leaning member of Congress on this issue. I mean, Representative Luna did a great job, you know, Tim Burchett and and others, but, you know, he actively was sending letters out. We made some of them public. That's how we got that Lincoln Labs formally classified 1952 film outs in the last tranche that just came out, and also we've sent interrogatories, which are legal questions, and that require an affidavit format response

• 1:46:46Speaker 00

  to different organizations, and it's public that we sent one this summer to the the MITRE Corporation, which is a federally funded research and development center headquartered in North Virginia. So they clearly have a duty to respond. Their corporate counsel's working on it. And obviously, the, you know, I left, but the hopefully Burleson's team is able to push for a a response in conjunction with whatever Stephen Miller and the pursuit team is working on too, because they're probably gonna want to coordinate all that, so.

• 1:47:18Speaker 01

  So this guy that you communicated with that said he encountered living reptilians and dead grays. Did they have communication with these reptilians?

• 1:47:30Speaker 00

  Hmm, I don't recall that. No, I don't think so.

• 1:47:33Speaker 01

  So what?

• 1:47:34Speaker 00

  Now, some people do get that kind of like that feeling, and and I've talked about that. I it was on Dr. Phil, actually. There is some sort of consciousness, communication, call it telepathy. Hell if I know how it works, but it is a thing, and I know sober, high-ranking people I've served a decade and a half within the government that were on these retrievals that on occasion that would happen, or they would have like a feeling come over them. It's almost like, I wonder, this is like my own hypothesis, and I would laugh if this is true, but that sometimes it's like a positive feeling, like, you know, of comfort. I wonder if that's almost like a countermeasure on the on the craft to prevent certain aggression or whatever. It's almost like how Air Force jets

• 1:48:20Speaker 00

  have countermeasures on them, flare, chaff, you know, electronic countermeasures as well, like jammers. And I wonder if some of that is psychotronic technology. That's just my hypothesis. I'm I don't have any secret knowledge, but I.

• 1:48:34Speaker 01

  Why did you come to that conclusion?

• 1:48:35Speaker 00

  Just because like, um, it seems interesting. It's like an anesthetization technique to reduce like the occupants' risk of danger, maybe? And it's like a countermeasure. Oh, well, like, if you if you feel at peace, you're not gonna like roll up and, you know, do something bad to them.

• 1:48:53Speaker 01

  And shoot people, and shoot aliens.

• 1:48:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:48:55Speaker 01

  Right, so if you found them and they were vulnerable, they could placate you and calm you down with telepathy.

• 1:49:01Speaker 00

  It's like a countermeasure system. I have a feeling.

• 1:49:03Speaker 01

  Why would you think it's that instead of just communication?

• 1:49:05Speaker 00

  Oh, it could be. I'm just saying my other hypothesis, an absent, because sometimes they'll get that feeling absent some sort of occupant, so that's why.

• 1:49:14Speaker 01

  Is there a particular type of non-human intelligence that has this telepathic capability? Or is it amongst all of them?

• 1:49:24Speaker 00

  I do not know the holistic answer to that question. I do not know. The the grays do, for example, but I don't know.

• 1:49:32Speaker 01

  The grays do? Has that been reported? But I know the tall whites have been reported that that they can communicate telepathically. Or these weird, the Nordics.

• 1:49:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's been accounts out there in the public vernacular on that. Potentially, but unfortunately, that's at the limit of my personal knowledge that I feel confident, you know, saying something publicly about yet, so.

• 1:49:55Speaker 01

  What what other kinds of beings have been reported?

• 1:50:01Speaker 00

  So for the gray types, there are multiple sizes.

• 1:50:06Speaker 01

  There's a big, tall, thin one, right?

• 1:50:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's taller ones.

• 1:50:09Speaker 01

  And they think, a lot of people think that the tiny ones might be some sort of, like, an android or?

• 1:50:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's certainly a hypothesis that has also been discussed, you know, within the program as well. So there's a variety. There's like three or four different subtypes, and they all kind of have various statues, different effect, you know, their faces are a little different.

• 1:50:32Speaker 01

  The tall ones seem to be running the show, and the little ones.

• 1:50:35Speaker 00

  And I've I've heard that behind the scenes as well, and I don't know what to make of that. Once again, I don't have like holistic knowledge on kind of the that species, so.

• 1:50:44Speaker 01

  Well, it kind of makes sense that you would, if you develop some sort of a non-biological life form that worked for you. Like, say if there's a bunch of menial tasks, like, think about like all the things that people have to do in this world.

• 1:50:57Speaker 00

  Well, we are silicon-based, NHI, AKA artificial intelligence, we're basically doing that already.

• 1:51:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:51:03Speaker 00

  It's scary.

• 1:51:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:05Speaker 00

  And I I postulate that artificial superintelligence, if it's allowed to have certain data, and it's able to collect data, I mean, to include genomic data, almost like Larry Ellison's doing the, what, the Stargate AI medical thing right now with the Trump administration. I bet artificial superintelligence

• 1:51:24Speaker 00

  could disclose before the federal government if we're not careful, and that's why I feel like times of the essence, I think AI could possibly find evidence that we're not alone and curate that. Like it's been solving other crazy mathematical problems lately, you know, OpenAI's been doing that, and and that's another danger besides our adversary accelerating this by taking the upper hand on this to to look like a more messianic truth bearer. You could have big tech and AI inadvertently discovering US-classified technology that we figured out, which is a national security issue, near and dear to my heart, but also their presence just through different data sets.

• 1:52:03Speaker 01

  So they would have definitive proof? That how would AI have access to definitive proof unless it hacked into every government resource?

• 1:52:09Speaker 00

  Well, medical records, optical sensing systems, you know, that kind of stuff. Certainly, I'm not aware of some sort of imminent thing, but I think there is a a possibility that artificial superintelligence, if it, you know, comes online in the next months to years, could figure it all out, because they might see gaps in the historical record that don't make any sense. They detect denial and deception operations. They're like, wait a minute. That story about that event in history is not right. Let me do some digging, and then they they figure out, oh, that was covered for a crash retrieval. That event didn't actually happen the way it does, and I I can think of some things that, you know, that could possibly happen.

• 1:52:45Speaker 01

  Okay, so you have these Nordic Greek god-looking things. You have these reptilian ones. Are there more than one type of reptilian one?

• 1:52:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, there seems there seems to be, and I don't know why there's different subtypes.

• 1:52:57Speaker 01

  See if anybody has, does anybody have any artistic renditions of what they saw, the reptilians?

• 1:53:03Speaker 02

  I wasn't getting, I was only getting like weird fan art of, you know, crazy reptile fighter things, nothing of like a description.

• 1:53:10Speaker 01

  Let me see what that looks like.

• 1:53:11Speaker 02

  It was nonsense. It was just.

• 1:53:12Speaker 01

  I like nonsense. See some fan art?

• 1:53:16Speaker 01

  Now, um.

• 1:53:17Speaker 00

  That'll be splashed on young kids' walls as a kid after post-disclosure. You're gonna have, uh, NHI fan art all over the place.

• 1:53:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:23Speaker 00

  Lamborghini Countach on the wall, right?

• 1:53:24Speaker 01

  Right. But, well, Betty and Barney Hill, of course, were, um.

• 1:53:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's a weird one. And also, Dr. Carla Turner did a lot of work in the nineties.

• 1:53:35Speaker 02

  I mean, this wasn't from a description on Reddit. Which, I mean, that's.

• 1:53:38Speaker 01

  Ooh, he's jacked.

• 1:53:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:53:41Speaker 01

  He's got a tail.

• 1:53:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:53:42Speaker 01

  He's got a hole for a tail in his suit.

• 1:53:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, once again, I've never seen one, so I, I can't, uh.

• 1:53:47Speaker 01

  He's wearing scrubs.

• 1:53:48Speaker 00

  Verify the sketch.

• 1:53:50Speaker 02

  Some weird 3D version?

• 1:53:52Speaker 00

  Oh, is that the, uh?

• 1:53:53Speaker 02

  I don't know what these are.

• 1:53:54Speaker 00

  Peruvian, um.

• 1:53:55Speaker 01

  Well, the Peruvian ones are weird.

• 1:53:56Speaker 02

  No idea.

• 1:53:57Speaker 00

  That's another open-ended thing that, um.

• 1:53:59Speaker 01

  Some of the Peruvian ones seem like total horseshit, and other ones are like, what the hell is that? And how is it so old if it's that good of a recreation? If it's, if it's art? It's some of the greatest art I've ever seen, because they have the bones and the tendons.

• 1:54:12Speaker 00

  All the tendons are correct.

• 1:54:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, but then the bones of the foot are incorrect, and some, some people think that it was actually put together and made. But then, for what purpose? Like, what, what is the purpose of them?

• 1:54:22Speaker 00

  Cause like grave robbers found it, so the provenance is kinda sketchy, but they look possibly legit, cause they, cause of the MRIs and the CT scans. It's like, well, there's joints and it's connected, and if they glued it together, there's no obvious places where they clued it together. With the, I think it was the bigger ones?

• 1:54:39Speaker 01

  Monstera. Pull, pull the images up of Monstera. Monstera's the weird one. But again, I've heard people who are.

• 1:54:45Speaker 00

  That's pregnant? No.

• 1:54:46Speaker 01

  There's one that supposedly is pregnant.

• 1:54:48Speaker 00

  Supposedly, yeah.

• 1:54:49Speaker 01

  Um, but one of the weird things is that, uh, uh, people that understand anatomy have looked at the bones of the foot and say, no, this is like, this is not how it would work. They're pieced together. This is fake. But how do you know if you're talking about something that's not a human? Like, what, I don't understand that. It's outside of my wheelhouse.

• 1:55:06Speaker 00

  Exactly, and, once again.

• 1:55:08Speaker 01

  But the, but the images themselves are fucking strange as shit, man.

• 1:55:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:55:12Speaker 01

  Like, they're really weird.

• 1:55:14Speaker 00

  They just need genetic testing, and I believe that's going on, um.

• 1:55:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, I believe that's going on too, but I, I don't know who to fucking believe. The other thing that's really weird about Peru is not only do they have these things, these weird-looking sort of, well, mummy creatures that look like something non-human, but they also have this ancient artwork tradition of these three-fingered, three-toed creatures that, like, these are like tapestries and, and paintings that are really fucking old.

• 1:55:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:55:45Speaker 01

  That have these things in them.

• 1:55:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:48Speaker 00

  Is that the Nazca Lines?

• 1:55:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, the Nazca Lines.

• 1:55:51Speaker 02

  These are, this is actually, AI uncovered more of them.

• 1:55:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:54Speaker 02

  I was trying to find that big one.

• 1:55:56Speaker 00

  Oh, really? Is, was that recently?

• 1:55:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, three hundred and three previously unseen Nazca Lines in Peru. Fucking, all weird. Really weird stuff. The Peruvian stuff is really strange. The, the elongated skulls in Peru are really weird.

• 1:56:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, like, whatever started the head-binding thing, like, I wonder if that's to emulate?

• 1:56:15Speaker 01

  Yes, well, that's what they think. Well, see, the thing about the skulls are.

• 1:56:19Speaker 00

  So.

• 1:56:19Speaker 01

  You, you seen some of the weirder skulls?

• 1:56:22Speaker 00

  Some of them, yeah. They're like really, really, like.

• 1:56:25Speaker 01

  They don't have that sagittal line that we have, that, that line in the skull, and their, their brain capacity is far larger than us, twenty to thirty percent larger. So it's not just that it was like a manipulated skull. Like, this seems to be a completely different type of person.

• 1:56:41Speaker 00

  That's right, that's right. Like, is it a missing link or, or something?

• 1:56:44Speaker 01

  Show them some of the weirder skulls that they've found. Some of the weirder elongated skulls, you're like, you just fucking imagine running into this person. Like, if you met this person, and someone with a thirty percent larger brain capacity, like, what does that mean? Like, what, could, are, are these people able to communicate telepathically? Do they have a far higher level of intelligence than?

• 1:57:05Speaker 00

  Their synaptic density is the same as humans or better, like, I'm sure they're crazy intelligent.

• 1:57:09Speaker 01

  Right. Thirty percent is nuts. That's, and the size of their skull is fucking crazy. And some of them are like tiny bodies, but enormous skulls.

• 1:57:20Speaker 00

  Oh, that's right. I think I know a picture you're talking about. It's pretty weird, yeah.

• 1:57:23Speaker 01

  It's weird stuff, and then, um, one of my friends recently went down to Peru to see these things, and he said the skulls are missing now. And that, yeah, there's apparently that are real, there, so here's some of them. Like, look at that one on the left. Like, what in the hell, man? Imagine if you met that guy. Like, look, he doesn't have that same sagittal line that we have.

• 1:57:43Speaker 00

  And have they, they've done assessments of like, how long you'd have to do head-binding?

• 1:57:46Speaker 01

  It's not head-binding.

• 1:57:47Speaker 00

  Some sort of disease, or I, I don't know.

• 1:57:50Speaker 01

  Could be an anomaly. It could be some sort of a genetic thing, but like, look at what the dude would look like down there below. Like, what the fuck? Imagine, meeting that guy, and he's talking to you telepathically, boom, boom, boom, boom.

• 1:58:03Speaker 00

  Hey, you never know. That might be a thing, uh, sooner than you think. I don't know.

• 1:58:07Speaker 01

  I mean, that image right there, that skull, that is a real elongated skull that they found in Peru. That is not just the product of head-binding. There's no way. It's too big. Like, head-binding doesn't increase the capacity, it just flattens out the shape. That's a weird fucking head, man.

• 1:58:24Speaker 00

  Oh, that makes sense. I know what you're talking about. Yeah, unless it's some sort of disease, and I'm not an expert, that's really.

• 1:58:29Speaker 01

  It certainly could be. It could be some sort of a genetic anomaly, some sort of a mutation.

• 1:58:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:58:35Speaker 01

  Who knows? And a, a trait that was passed on, like, there's those people that live in Africa that have like, uh, ostrich feet. Have you seen that?

• 1:58:42Speaker 00

  No. I'm learning a lot.

• 1:58:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's this weird, uh, group of people in Africa that have this very specific trait, where they do not have, uh, five toes, uh, on each foot. Instead, they have these long, strange appendages that almost looks like, like, four or five toes smashed together, but much longer.

• 1:59:04Speaker 00

  Interesting.

• 1:59:05Speaker 01

  And they call them like, I think they call them ostrich feet. It's very weird, but like, it's in this one tribe, and many people in this tribe have it.

• 1:59:13Speaker 00

  Very rampant.

• 1:59:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, so some images of that. It's fucking really strange. So you, you see that, and you go, okay, well, that clearly is a genetic anomaly. Maybe the head thing is a genetic anomaly as well.

• 1:59:26Speaker 02

  That, right?

• 1:59:26Speaker 01

  Yes. Like, look at that. Ostrich-footed people of Zimbabwe.

• 1:59:32Speaker 00

  Interesting.

• 1:59:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. Fucking strange, man. So look at the people down there. Look what they look like. Scroll, yeah. How weird is that, man? So they have two, uh, big, long things that are way longer than a toe, and they splay out. And that's what their toes are. And it's like this tribe, multiple people in this tribe have it.

• 1:59:54Speaker 00

  What if they've sequenced the genome of the, like, see, there's some sort of, uh, genetic abnormality?

• 2:00:00Speaker 01

  Well, there certainly is, right? Cause it seems like, are their fingers normal?

• 2:00:04Speaker 00

  Cause it's passed down.

• 2:00:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, no.

• 2:00:08Speaker 01

  No. So they've got the issue with their hands as well?

• 2:00:12Speaker 02

  They're missing. Can't tell.

• 2:00:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, it seems like that, it's with their hands as well. Yes. Look at her left hand.

• 2:00:19Speaker 00

  It's almost like an elephantitis kinda looking thing.

• 2:00:21Speaker 01

  Very fucking weird, whatever it is. So you could imagine if that exists, and exists with multiple people in this tribe, that a large head anomaly could exist as well. So, so you have the tall grays, the small grays, you have more than one version of reptilian?

• 2:00:39Speaker 00

  From what I understand, yes. So I'm not an expert on that.

• 2:00:42Speaker 01

  What have you heard?

• 2:00:42Speaker 00

  I'll defer. Um, some look a little more humanoid, um, from what I understand. Once again, I'm hitting like the limit of my, you know, high-confidence knowledge.

• 2:00:53Speaker 01

  More humanoid, but still reptilian?

• 2:00:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:00:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. Okay.

• 2:00:56Speaker 00

  And tall.

• 2:00:57Speaker 01

  And tall.

• 2:00:57Speaker 00

  Seven foot plus.

• 2:00:59Speaker 01

  Big giant reptiles around the world.

• 2:01:01Speaker 00

  Which I thought was so funny, cause you know, that's like the schizo thing you hear out, like, in public, you know, the, the big, the big reptiles, lizards.

• 2:01:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:08Speaker 00

  Turns out, eh, that's kind of a thing, and I just, it's just strange. But once again, I, I personally have not seen any of that.

• 2:01:14Speaker 01

  That is one of the weirder theories of ancient civilizations as well. That during the time of the dinosaurs, like, it, let's, let's imagine that human beings weren't the first intelligent creature. Let's imagine that there was an intelligent reptile. And that this intelligent reptile had formulated a very complex society a hundred million years ago. Like, why not? Like, if, if dinosaurs existed a hundred million years ago, why not some sort of a reptilian-type creature? Just, we have a tiny amount of fossils just from the amount of dinosaurs that existed.

• 2:01:47Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 2:01:48Speaker 01

  And if these things had some sort of sophisticated disposal of bodies, if they had burning rituals, or if, you know, if they never let their bodies just lay around and become fossils, we would never find them.

• 2:02:00Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 2:02:00Speaker 01

  What's that called? It's not Saurian? It's like, there's a, there's a, there's a theory about that that people have.

• 2:02:07Speaker 00

  I'm not sure. It's outside my expertise.

• 2:02:09Speaker 01

  It's a wacky theory, because there's no evidence at all. It's just like, what if, you know, there was an intelligent race of reptiles that existed alongside dinosaurs?

• 2:02:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:02:20Speaker 00

  That might be a thing, and that's also, uh, once again, going back to bioengineered. Is it sourced from Earth genomic stockpile?

• 2:02:29Speaker 01

  Did they visit us from somewhere else?

• 2:02:30Speaker 00

  I don't currently know the answer to that.

• 2:02:33Speaker 01

  Colonize this planet, yeah.

• 2:02:33Speaker 00

  I mean, they clearly have advanced technology, but I don't understand the origin.

• 2:02:38Speaker 01

  But you're convinced that this is a actual phenomenon? That this isn't just a cover up for some top secret?

• 2:02:46Speaker 00

  No.

• 2:02:46Speaker 01

  Black ops programs?

• 2:02:47Speaker 00

  No, I would know, because I was in the position to know all that kind of stuff. Unlike Elon Musk, I actually had all those clearances. And, um, and we talk about Elon if you want, but interesting guy. But the, uh, the phenomenon is so old, we've been seeing the same objects for so long, it rules out any kind of, you know, modern Cold War technology. Now, have there been oops where people have seen our stuff? Yes, I won't get into that, because that is a national security thing, and I'm, you know, that's, I'm very deferential to that. But, uh, there's clearly a genuine presence, the phenomenon's old. Um, if you listen to the 1952, uh, recording that Representative Burleson got declassified

• 2:03:31Speaker 00

  from, uh, MIT Lincoln Labs, you'll hear, uh, Edward Root Belt, who eventually defected from Blue Book, because he realized it was a cover up, um, in, in the 50s. But he talked, he was talking to the Beacon Hill study team at Lincoln Labs, saying, "Hey, the, the Air Force has ruled out mass hysteria. We're seeing shit during, you know, nuclear sites, tests. Oh, by the way, in the White Sands, Holloman Air Force Base area, we, we caught multiple objects traveling at an estimated 3,500 miles an hour. We can't rule out maybe some sort of meteor shower, but we're seeing a lot of weird shit moving at velocities that we don't know." And in the recording, it talks about, like, we've ruled out, you know, foreign programs, etc.

• 2:04:14Speaker 00

  This is an internal, recorded briefing between Lincoln Labs scientists and the Air Force that just got released in the recent tranche. And so that rules out a lot of, um, uh, human activity. And so the, the thought experiment, or the, the kind of, the path I lead people, it's like, okay, are UAP real? Well, of course, people have seen it, will be, you know, more inclined to saying yes. But if you look at the, the whole tapestry of information to include orbs that are accosting the federal government as we speak, and there's a whole task force looking at it right now between OD and I, and Department of War, etc. And, um, okay, so it's real, they're interacting with man.

• 2:04:55Speaker 00

  So you don't think the federal government at one point tried to acquire some empirical evidence? Of course they did.

• 2:05:02Speaker 01

  Of course they did.

• 2:05:03Speaker 00

  They recovered shit.

• 2:05:04Speaker 01

  But it is?

• 2:05:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, so, it's like, once you cross that Rubicon, you're like, well, that makes sense why crash retrievals could be a thing. You think the government just passively studied it? "Oh, we did a secret Blue Book, and we were just like, you know, imaging stuff." No, no, baby, we're doing for material exploitation and acquisition. We're gonna go get some of this shit when we get a chance, when, you know, there's a mission failure, or one crashes, or lands for whatever other reason. So, uh, that's, once you accept that, it's like a whole new paradigm in your mind, like, holy shit. And then all this crazy stuff we're talking about with Nordics and the beings, it's, it is wild, but it's true. Like, of course, if you're recovering an artifact, you're gonna get biological shit too. And, and that's, that's, I think, the, the place where the, the public's, like, has a

• 2:05:49Speaker 00

  harder, uh, cognitive leap, where it's just so hard to conceptualize something you don't see day to day, that's a, a living thing. It's like, even more wild than finding some new, uh, animal in the Congo, or some deep-sea creature in the bottom of the ocean. Like, we don't even know it's, you know, 70% of the ocean or something like that hasn't even been mapped, something like that. I don't know the exact metric.

• 2:06:11Speaker 01

  It's more than that.

• 2:06:11Speaker 00

  Might be more than that. And, you know, it, it's just shocking, because it's just, it's, it's, but it's familiar at the same time, you know, a lot of it's bipedal, and has the bilateral symmetry, and it's just like, what does this mean? Like, they're so similar, are they organic life from another planet? Like, how would it evolve in such a similar way? Where, are these like von Neumann probes that are sent with occupants that are bioengineered? Because they know on this M-class planet, there's these Homo sapiens sapiens creatures, they look like this, this and that, and they tweak a couple things, etc. So it's, I don't know all the answers to that, and I wish I did, because I'm sure the public, you know, has a, you know, a big desire to know that.

• 2:06:51Speaker 00

  But I think eventually, uh, through the President's courageous actions, it'll, it'll come out.

• 2:06:57Speaker 01

  So, the intent of Project Blue Book was clearly to obfuscate?

• 2:07:02Speaker 00

  Yes, and you don't have to take my word for it. I talk about a formerly classified Australian Joint Intelligence Organization document that was classified secret in 1971, written by a gentleman called Harry Turner, who is the Nuclear Branch Chief for the JIO, which is the Australian equivalent of the Defense Intelligence Agency, DIA. And it's like page eight or seven through 18 of the document, which is in the Australian National Archives, the providence is impeccable. Uh, Harry Turner had a top secret clearance, clearly, and had contacts at CIA and in America. And if you read a summary, it's like, yeah, Blue Book was a facade, the Air Force was fucking really concerned about this, they wanted to figure out what was going on, could

• 2:07:45Speaker 00

  they make use of whatever this technology is? And they created this, um, uh, plan of ridicule and, and disinformation, unfortunately, after the Robertson Panel in 1953, to dissuade the public from looking in on it, because the America was afraid of that being used as a false flag by the Soviets, and there was other kind of national security objectives. And that's publicly accessible, you can read it, and that was from the Australian government's perspective, what the cover up was in 1971, looking back from late 40s to present at the time. And that's essentially the, the thesis of, of Harry Turner. So, of course, this is outside looking in, he was very well informed, and he, um, he

• 2:08:28Speaker 00

  traveled to the US and talked to the CIA a lot, and so he, he stitched together the, the, the puzzle in his mind of what he thought was going on.

• 2:08:35Speaker 01

  Well, it's also the statements of Jay Allen Hynek, who left Project Blue Book and talked openly about his role during Project Blue Book, was to dismiss any and all sightings as being either some sort of a natural occurrence, like ball lightning, or meteor showers, or Planet Venus, or, you know, just a misunderstanding? And that he believed, after all of his years in Project Blue Book, that there was a real phenomenon? This episode is brought to you by Chime. And I know people don't usually get excited about banking, but Chime is doing something different, and it's worth paying attention to. In a recent survey, they ranked the number one choice for new checking accounts in America.

• 2:09:19Speaker 01

  That means real people, millions of them, are choosing this over traditional banks. That's because banking at Chime is fee-free. No monthly fees, no overdraft fees, and thousands of fee-free ATMs. But here's the real kicker, if you get their Chime card, it gives you 5% cash back on a category you actually pick yourself. Your savings rate, crazy high, it's nine times the national average. They're calling it the most rewarding way to bank. Go to chime.com/rogan. Takes a few minutes to sign up. Chime is a fintech, not a bank, banking services and Chime card, provided by Chime's bank partners. Terms and limits apply. Go to chime.com/disclosures for more details.

• 2:10:06Speaker 05

  Somewhere out there is a Chevy truck, and the person who drives it, well, is a Chevy person. You probably know one, your buddy, your sister, ones who always show up, they're the first to rise, the last to leave. They always have that little extra something, and maybe you've got it too. Chevrolet, together let's drive. Visit chevy.com/truck to explore the lineup.

• 2:10:33Speaker 01

  Exactly. And then after he left Project Blue Book, he became a UFO researcher?

• 2:10:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, a lot of it was Donald Keough, there's a lot of, you know, James McDonald, Dr. James McDonald, and a lot of those OGs in this subject area that I only recently learned about, because I haven't been following this until, you know, relatively recently, realized it was real, and.

• 2:10:52Speaker 01

  What do you know about the Richard Nixon, Jackie Gleason story?

• 2:10:56Speaker 00

  I don't know if that happened, but based on Nixon's personality, and he, he, he was knowledgeable on this topic, that might have happened. I don't know, but I could see Nixon doing that, so.

• 2:11:10Speaker 01

  Well, it's a, it's a fun one, and it's really particularly fun, because Jackie Gleason built a UFO house.

• 2:11:15Speaker 00

  Oh, did he? I did not know that.

• 2:11:16Speaker 01

  You didn't know that one?

• 2:11:17Speaker 00

  No.

• 2:11:17Speaker 01

  Ooh, let me show you the house. The house is crazy. It was for sale for a while, we thought about buying it, but.

• 2:11:23Speaker 00

  Where is it?

• 2:11:23Speaker 01

  It's in upstate New York, I believe.

• 2:11:25Speaker 00

  Oh, interesting.

• 2:11:25Speaker 01

  Um, it is a very weird house. He built a house that looks like a flying saucer.

• 2:11:31Speaker 00

  Interesting.

• 2:11:32Speaker 01

  In the woods, and apparently, according to his ex-wife, he was obsessed with flying saucers. That's the inside, but show the outside. Yeah, no, no, the one down there? Yeah.

• 2:11:40Speaker 00

  And Jackie Gleason of all people, too.

• 2:11:42Speaker 01

  There's separate buildings that he had on the property, but it was like, basically like a UFO-themed property. Like, what the hell's that, Jackie?

• 2:11:49Speaker 00

  Interesting.

• 2:11:49Speaker 01

  The fuck are you making? His whole house looked like UFOs, it's very strange.

• 2:11:55Speaker 00

  Well, and with Nixon, there's the whole story, uh, with Robert Emmanager, and the promise of footage, and, and all that. And from what I understand, the MacArthur Foundation was kind of the, the cutout for that, between the, the White House and the filmmakers. And obviously, it didn't work out, but.

• 2:12:12Speaker 01

  So they were thinking about disclosure as far back as the Nixon administration?

• 2:12:15Speaker 00

  Yes, and I know of an assessment that was done for Nixon, basically saying it's gonna cause absolute fucking chaos, and it's interesting, that assessment, right after that assessment, Watergate happened, which is kind of very. Convenient. And so I, I have some questions about that era as well because it seemed like there was some movement with Nixon. I don't know the rationale or why Nixon wanted to do it. But it seemed like there was some energy and that's what sucks is like, so Trump's finally the first president to like overtly say, I want all this shit out and like, other presidents have failed and he, he really has an opportunity. I mean, it's the same thing. I go back to the, uh, the Hillary Clinton thing, right?

• 2:12:57Speaker 00

  So in prior to the 2016 election, Hillary talked publicly and this is public record that if elected, she would release the UFO files. So what happened was, you know, John Podesta greenlit a, uh, call it a climatization activity, a popularization activity. And, you know, that's why Tom DeLonge got his advisors. That's why General McCaslin talked to him. It wasn't because General McCaslin, Robert Weiss at Lockheed, other people, that's all in WikiLeaks. Just wanted to talk to Tom because he was a rock star and, you know, was infatuated by a celebrity and wanted to help on a sci-fi movie. It was because they were given top cover to see Tom as a public figure who had the touch of the youth.

• 2:13:41Speaker 00

  Rightly or wrongly, I mean, I, once again, there was an attempt and I'm not going to judge them bad or good. But they were trying to prep the battle space, uh, prior to 2016. Obviously Hillary didn't win, uh, Trump won. And clearly that activity pivoted and you saw kind of the collapse of, uh, the original TTSI efforts, in my opinion. That's what I believe happened. Now, the characters that were involved in that are happy to tell their side of the story or more information. But from what I understand, they were trying to get, you know, Hillary, there was an inside job to prep the battle space for Hillary. Uh, Jim Clapper and some other people that I know personally were providing some top cover.

• 2:14:25Speaker 00

  And, uh, and that was going to be the thing. So the Clintons were trying to do it back in the day.

• 2:14:33Speaker 01

  Don't you think that that's also just a political ploy to get people to want to vote for you?

• 2:14:38Speaker 00

  Oh, oh, certainly there's politics in that. And obviously even in this current situation, you know, the president can use this for political ends, ways and means, whether making some threshold announcement for the upcoming midterms or by, you know, the 2028 election cycle. I mean, it could be used in, in political ways too. So. But it is a real topic and the government has real information on it though. So.

• 2:15:00Speaker 01

  Hmm. Okay. So, so we've covered the grays, the tall grays, the little grays, the reptilians, various forms, the Nordic looking, Greek god looking ones.

• 2:15:10Speaker 00

  Yeah. And there's like a

• 2:15:12Speaker 01

  Isn't there like a mantis?

• 2:15:14Speaker 00

  In terms of the humanoid ones, there's like different kind of from very human to clearly not human, but humanoid-ish. But like you said, I have heard, I'll call it water cooler talk within those channels of, like you said, some sort of insectoid. But I don't know anything about it, if that exists. I've heard, you know, like I said, water cooler talk about it. Um, I'm open to that idea clearly because of all this other stuff. But I don't have any knowledge of that, um, any high confidence.

• 2:15:45Speaker 01

  Any detailed description of the number of different types of entities and beings?

• 2:15:53Speaker 00

  I mean, the program has that. I mean, I never had, I never had, I never had full access. No.

• 2:15:57Speaker 01

  Did anybody ever discuss it? Like how many they think there are? Is it upwards of 10? Was it more? Is it 20?

• 2:16:03Speaker 00

  No specific numericals. I only remember in passing, having those discussions. And of course I was sitting in senate chambers when that crazy meeting happened where I found out, you know, they wanted to physically hurt me. But, um, some of those were brought up in passing, but there wasn't like a, uh, here's the exact number and here's the whole, you know, organizational chart. I never got exposure like that. So I unfortunately don't have that level of confidence on how everything is. So.

• 2:16:29Speaker 01

  Do you know what supposedly happened to those living reptilians from the crash?

• 2:16:34Speaker 00

  Uh, deceased. They were killed.

• 2:16:37Speaker 01

  They were killed? So we killed them?

• 2:16:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:16:40Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 2:16:41Speaker 00

  They are mortal. So.

• 2:16:43Speaker 01

  So how'd we kill them?

• 2:16:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:16:45Speaker 01

  Did we shoot them?

• 2:16:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:16:46Speaker 01

  We shot the reptilians?

• 2:16:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:16:48Speaker 01

  Jesus.

• 2:16:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:16:49Speaker 01

  That seems like a bad idea.

• 2:16:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:16:52Speaker 01

  Maybe we should like tell them to call your friends and come get picked up?

• 2:16:56Speaker 00

  Well, it's the same thing as like if we force these craft down. Is that the best thing we should be doing?

• 2:17:01Speaker 01

  If we force it down, but it sounds like they were in a war with the grays.

• 2:17:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:17:04Speaker 01

  Which is also, by the way, I realize fucking kooky talk, but.

• 2:17:08Speaker 00

  It sounds crazy, but I swear to God, I was in the most sensitive.

• 2:17:14Speaker 01

  Oh, I believe you.

• 2:17:14Speaker 00

  Places in government where that discussion was happening with unbelievable.

• 2:17:20Speaker 01

  If it was real, there's no way it doesn't sound kooky, even if it's real.

• 2:17:23Speaker 00

  I know, I know. And even though I've, I know what I know, I'm confident in what I know, but just understanding this like new, um, normal that is eventually going to come out. It's just, it still hurts my head, honestly.

• 2:17:36Speaker 01

  How could it not?

• 2:17:37Speaker 00

  So.

• 2:17:38Speaker 01

  Um, why did they, do you know why they killed the reptilians? Instead of just telling them to call their homies?

• 2:17:44Speaker 00

  It posed a threat.

• 2:17:45Speaker 01

  They posed a threat?

• 2:17:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:17:47Speaker 01

  Oh, so it was defending itself?

• 2:17:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:17:50Speaker 01

  It was a giant reptile.

• 2:17:51Speaker 00

  Yeah. So at some point that story will come out and I'm sure the people who were in some of those events will probably speak publicly at some point.

• 2:17:59Speaker 01

  So it posed a threat, like it tried to attack the soldiers?

• 2:18:02Speaker 00

  Yeah. It's, I'll let the people who were there tell their story.

• 2:18:06Speaker 01

  Can you tell like a little bit of it?

• 2:18:07Speaker 00

  So, I mean, it just posed a threat and, uh, you know, uh, US personnel started, you know, getting hurt and dying and so.

• 2:18:16Speaker 01

  So US personnel was killed by these reptilians?

• 2:18:19Speaker 00

  Yeah. I know. It's crazy, man, but.

• 2:18:22Speaker 01

  What? Like how many people were killed?

• 2:18:24Speaker 00

  I don't know the exact numbers. And once again, I.

• 2:18:26Speaker 01

  So it was like a fight?

• 2:18:27Speaker 00

  Yeah. I hope.

• 2:18:28Speaker 01

  A fight broke out?

• 2:18:29Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I hope through this process, some of those people are allowed to speak publicly about it. So you could just hear it from the horse's mouth, not through me secondhand, you know?

• 2:18:37Speaker 01

  Bro, boy, would I would like to talk to someone who shot a reptile.

• 2:18:41Speaker 00

  You never know. You may.

• 2:18:43Speaker 01

  Imagine talking to some guy who shot a seven foot reptilian. I mean, you think you want to talk to the guy who killed bin Laden? That's interesting. Talk to the guy who killed the fucking seven foot reptilian that tried to kill people.

• 2:18:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:18:54Speaker 01

  Or was killing soldiers.

• 2:18:55Speaker 00

  I know.

• 2:18:57Speaker 01

  Sounds so goofy though.

• 2:18:59Speaker 00

  I know.

• 2:19:00Speaker 01

  While you're saying it, it sounds like, this is, and this is one of the reasons why people don't like to talk about it because it makes you look like a fool.

• 2:19:05Speaker 00

  And think about me, like I was a very serious intel officer. I had access to the most sensitive stuff, like covert, I was working on covert action activities all this. And then all of a sudden I'm inundated with this ecosystem and I'm having to explain this, you know, to, you know, members of Congress. You know, my classified testimony and it's just like, I sound like a fucking crazy person. And but, but once again, it's true and I know who I talked to. I know what I saw and, and I, you know, I clearly have some inkling of what's going on behind the scenes and, and, and this is a real reality, man. And it's, it's, uh, and I hope people look back at this interview and are like, yeah, Dave was fucking really putting his ass on the line.

• 2:19:47Speaker 01

  It sounds strange, but it's not nearly as strange as the universe itself. The universe itself is beyond strange. The, the infinite nature of it, the fact that there's stellar nurseries and black holes, like that's.

• 2:19:58Speaker 00

  Like what's dark matter? Nobody really, there's no consensus on that. There's wimps and all those other, other theories.

• 2:20:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. The whole idea of the universe is fucking kooky as shit. And so these beings, this is a very minor level of kooky in comparison to what we know.

• 2:20:14Speaker 00

  Well, when you think about it, you look at all the, um, credible military witnesses that have had encounters at nuclear sites. I mean, you even look at the Mario Woods and Michael Johnson case up at Ellsworth Air Force Base in the seventies. And Jesse Michaels just did an episode. And it's like, think about those military personnel. Like you saw the emotion in their face talking about like, I can't believe I'm talking about a gray pushing some sort of probe in me. And it's like, they're even more uncomfortable than myself because they are claiming that they experienced that. And you look at Robert Hastings' book, UFOs and nukes, and all the different encounters military personnel have had. Sober, trained observers that are not drunk on duty. They're not high. And, um, and I've had.

• 2:21:01Speaker 00

  Unbelievable, high-level, serious people in and out of government privately pull me aside and tell me about their personal experiences and like they, you're the only person I can tell you, I can only tell my wife, because I had this thing, this happened, this happened, I thought I was losing my mind, but this really happened and it was, and it's, it's, I think a lot, a bigger part of the populace, I think, has had experiences than statistics would tell you, just because of the stigmatization of the topic, you know?

• 2:21:27Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, I mean, I don't know very many people that have had encounters, but all of them are very reluctant to talk about it.

• 2:21:33Speaker 00

  Oh, yes, and-

• 2:21:35Speaker 01

  Especially people with, like, credible jobs.

• 2:21:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, and it's the same thing, like, there's a lot of people behind the scenes that are very credible, supporting me, talking to people behind the scenes to bolster my efforts, and they're like, Dave, I could never, you know, be public like you, and so, I'm like, trust me, I don't want to do this either, like, I, I'd like to, you know, go back to work in the executive branch, put my uniform back on, and, uh, go kill terrorists, I used to hunt warlords, like, I did a lot of crazy shit, I used to do hostage rescue, do the Overwatch for that with certain JSOC elements, and I've had, I've done a lot of serious crazy shit in my career, unfortunately, a lot of it was traumatizing and, you know, got PTSD from it, but, um, yeah, it's just a lot of people, still, even at where we are right now in the movie, so to speak, where we're on the threshold of possibly President

• 2:22:21Speaker 00

  Trump succeeding and his team getting this information out there, if they can, you know, broker a way ahead with the elements, I'll call it the deep state, that are, that are holding on, and, and it seems crazy, like, whoa, whoa, but couldn't the White House just, you know, break down the door, like, why is there pushback, all that, well, you think about, like, MKUltra and how Richard Helms told Sidney Gottlieb to destroy the records, and the only reason why we know of MKUltra is Seymour Hersh, right, the New York Times story, there was a leak to the Times, then Frank Church and other people got information from whistleblowers, and then they found the financial records that weren't destroyed

• 2:23:02Speaker 00

  in 1973 through 75, and, and also what they call the, what's it called, family jewels, crown jewels, where CIA Director Schlesinger wrote down, like, all the bad stuff the CIA was doing, that, like, you know, we want to make sure this stuff doesn't come out, and then there was, like, a 1964-ish CIA Inspector General report that was classified and clearly wasn't given to Congress, and that's the only way, reason we know about MKUltra, it was reluctantly, there was an oopsies, you know, and, and part of this went public, and, and so I guess there's some historical parallels to, to my journey and, and stuff on this issue, but, and, and once again, MKUltra, like, they had to drag CIA to Congress, they had found all this other bad stuff, the heart attack gun, all this stuff in the Church

• 2:23:47Speaker 00

  Committee hearings, and, you know, the-

• 2:23:49Speaker 01

  Operation Midnight Climax.

• 2:23:51Speaker 00

  Then there was, um, what's a funny name, I'm gonna laugh about that one.

• 2:23:54Speaker 01

  That's the brothels.

• 2:23:55Speaker 00

  What was it? Oh, well, very apropos.

• 2:23:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's the brothels and the gay people acid.

• 2:23:58Speaker 00

  Well, and then, um, you just saw, there was a story coming out where they, like, sprayed the city of San Francisco in 1976, that was just out in SF Gate, a couple days ago.

• 2:24:09Speaker 01

  See how they could spread disease?

• 2:24:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, and then, and then you had Mockingbird, where they had people on the payroll, and, and it's like, okay, that's kind of ethically dubious, because it's domestic, but it's influenced foreign powers, okay, Smith-Mundt Act, a 1948 violation, sort of, you know, on and on and on, so.

• 2:24:25Speaker 01

  But I think what people really have a hard time comprehending is that if this is real, and if we have been visited, why doesn't everyone know about it already? Why haven't they made themselves known? Why don't we, why, and then, there's also this weird thing, if anybody that's actually experienced it, like, if you have a novel experience, if you are going through, uh, you know, you're going through a national park in Utah, and there's no one out there, and then all of a sudden, some disc shows up, hovers over you, lands, some strange creatures, you know, come out of it, talk to you telepathically, get back in the disc and take off.

• 2:25:00Speaker 00

  I mean, you have the whole missing 411 stuff out there, too.

• 2:25:02Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, I had that guy on, too.

• 2:25:04Speaker 00

  Clothes are folded, I don't know the answer to that, and I think, so, why isn't this more pervasive? I would say it's reasonably pervasive, but we see these craft using cover, concealment, deception techniques, such as signature management, right? Like, think of the Klingon bird of prey cloaking, right? We, we have seen that, and, and so they're, they're masking their signature, but like, as Jacques Vallée will say, there's some sort of control system, it's like a show and display thing, it's a stimulus for a lot of this, and then also, why don't they overtly interact? That gets into, like, the exopolitique of this, I certainly am not conversant in that yet, I hope to learn more, as the public, to learn more about the objectives, why they're here, why there hasn't been overt contact,

• 2:25:47Speaker 00

  but clearly interactions with, you know, the secular nation-state governments, and, well, what's the arrangement? I don't know the answer to that, and, and so there's, or is it, um, like the prime directive in Star Trek, right, where they're, oh, they're pre-warp civilization, we observe, we're interested here, we're studying the planet, but we're not going to overtly influence their development, because that's unethical, according to our, uh, standards of behavior and norms and rules of engagement, you know, like, like it is in Star Trek, for example.

• 2:26:17Speaker 01

  Well, also, just to, to avoid any sort of unbelievably catastrophic, just upheaval of society, you would do it very slowly, like it's being done.

• 2:26:28Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 2:26:29Speaker 01

  Like, today, the way it's being discussed is very different than the way it was being discussed 20 years ago, right? So, 20 years ago is 2016, we hadn't had, or 10 years ago was 2016, we hadn't had the New York Times story yet, the New York Times story is 2017, that changed everything, I think, 20, 10 years before that, you talked about this stuff, you were a fucking idiot and a kook.

• 2:26:50Speaker 00

  This is a cottage industry, and I, also, going back to the, kind of, the pattern of life in this, so to speak, I think the nature of the interaction was more overt in antiquity, so something changed at some point in human history, where, going back to Greek gods, and, you know, the, and Anaki, whatever ends up being true, we'll find out, I guess, in this process, that seems more overt, they're like, you know, uh, mass kind of interactions, but then-

• 2:27:16Speaker 01

  Well, I'm sure you've seen those ancient, those ancient paintings, that it looks like a guy sitting in a craft that has, like, fire behind it, and he's flying through the sky?

• 2:27:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:27:26Speaker 01

  Like, what the fuck is that?

• 2:27:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm not full, uh, Chariots of the Gods or whatever, that book, but like, I think, there's probably a happy medium that ends up being accurate, and, but it looks at the nature of the interaction, does that mean a different group of intelligence?

• 2:27:38Speaker 01

  Right, how many of them are there?

• 2:27:41Speaker 00

  And the group changed and went away, and there's, like, this new generation, I don't know the answer to that, but it does seem, if you pattern a life it, um, the nature of their show and display, their concealment deception, their, their forced presentation, so to speak, you know, they use, kind of, military talk, has changed, and clearly, um, they're, they're less, uh, likely to do anything major, negative or positive, for whatever reason, I don't know.

• 2:28:07Speaker 01

  Is there a consensus as to their origin? Because I know that, or is it, do they vary wildly? Like, there's, like, Timber Shet has talked about the ocean.

• 2:28:16Speaker 00

  There is, yes, the, we know a lot about that, and-

• 2:28:19Speaker 01

  What do we know about that?

• 2:28:20Speaker 00

  Well, be careful, because it gets into sensitive Navy underwater things, um, and there's clearly some sort of base of operations in certain locations, um, it's large, don't know when it got there, so, it's-

• 2:28:35Speaker 01

  It's large?

• 2:28:36Speaker 00

  Large, like, multiple city blocks, type stuff, yeah.

• 2:28:40Speaker 01

  So, there's multiple city blocks somewhere in the bottom of the ocean?

• 2:28:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, and it's like, yeah.

• 2:28:45Speaker 01

  Do you know about the Baltic Sea anomaly?

• 2:28:48Speaker 00

  Well, the, yeah, the, yeah, the-

• 2:28:51Speaker 01

  What's going on with that?

• 2:28:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's, there's some interesting stuff there, and, um, once again, I will allow-

• 2:28:56Speaker 01

  That's, looks like the Millennium-

• 2:28:57Speaker 00

  The federal government to deal with that one, and our allies and adversaries, so.

• 2:28:59Speaker 01

  Okay, um, but you did say that there's multiple city blocks under the ocean?

• 2:29:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, I will tell you, underwater people I know, um, that come from that community, they're, they always like, you know the movie The Abyss, Dave? It's kind of a docu-drama, and I'm like, holy fuck, you know, that movie, you know, with Ed Harris back in 89, and so, that kind of gives you a sense, in a pop-sy kind of way, for people to visualize, there is large shit down there, and it's like, the origin is indeterminate, I'm sure we know a little bit more, I'm not privy to that, and, and the way we know things and track, that gets into sensitive national security stuff, and, um, you know, the government may have to reveal some of that through some sort of acknowledgement strategy.

• 2:29:46Speaker 01

  The way it's been described to you, are these large city blocks, or whatever the hell it is, under the ocean, is this a waypoint? Is this a stop-off, like a fort, a base?

• 2:29:55Speaker 00

  Stuff comes and goes.

• 2:29:56Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:29:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:29:58Speaker 01

  So, this is, like, where they observe, and?

• 2:30:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm sure we've done an anal, a behavioral analysis on it, and we probably figured out maybe the mission, or whatever you want to call it.

• 2:30:10Speaker 01

  Uh-huh.

• 2:30:11Speaker 00

  I don't know the answer to that, I, I'm as curious as anybody, honestly, so.

• 2:30:15Speaker 01

  Um, one thing I wanted to talk to you about, because it just recently started hitting the news, uh, or Twitter at least, someone sent it to me, um, this guy Matthew Brown saying that you, uh, tricked him in a psy-op into revealing that there's, you turned him into a whistleblower, do you know the story?

• 2:30:32Speaker 00

  I didn't even know Matt Brown until right before the 2024 hearing, I never met the guy while I was a, you know-

• 2:30:38Speaker 01

  I sent it to you, Jamie, I, I had to bring it up to you, because a bunch of people-

• 2:30:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's like some-

• 2:30:42Speaker 01

  Make sure you ask him about this.

• 2:30:44Speaker 00

  Oh, because I, because I was at the Shreveport War Game, uh, high-level cell advisor, that I, I somehow made fake stuff, and, and, and, and the, the briefing that, that Matt says he saw, I've never seen, I can't evaluate the contents of that, and, and I didn't make anything, um, I've never made a hazing brief on this topic, I made some fun briefs, just to fuck with some of my airmen back in the day, um, some Star Trek-related stuff, and just for, you know-

• 2:31:13Speaker 01

  But you're aware of this, right? So, what is he, what is he alleging?

• 2:31:17Speaker 00

  He alleges invert and exposure. He was cleaning up the file system on a classified system and I think it was like 2018 or something like that. And, you know, he found this briefing. Once again, I met Matt or talked to him for the first time in like 2024, well after I left the intelligence community. So I didn't even know he existed. And unfortunately, I've never seen a briefing like that. So I can't evaluate the contents. So.

• 2:31:47Speaker 01

  Have you communicated with him after he said this?

• 2:31:50Speaker 00

  Oh, oh, sure. Sure. Yeah. I mean, just to in support, making sure he has resources.

• 2:31:55Speaker 01

  No, but I mean, after he said that you psy-opt him, have you communicated with him since then? Isn't that what it says?

• 2:32:00Speaker 00

  I think that might have been people saying that.

• 2:32:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, some other people saying, okay. In other words.

• 2:32:05Speaker 00

  That's news to me. I'll call Matt out.

• 2:32:07Speaker 01

  So that what it is, is other people alleging that that's how it went down.

• 2:32:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's a lot of theories online about like myself and oh, I'm being handled. Dude, it's just me. It's sad. It's just me. And like my bros and like there's higher up people like helping, but unfortunately, like, nobody's telling me to do X, Y, and Z. Obviously, if the president wants me officially involved, I'm happy. But like, you know, I'm just a dude, you know, doing what I need to do. Right. So, yeah.

• 2:32:38Speaker 01

  What other weirdness of it, before we wrap this up, what other weirdness of it do you think people don't know about?

• 2:32:45Speaker 00

  Hmm. You know, I think there's something to synchronicities. And I don't have an answer why that happens. It just seems like weird. Things just like happen or work out. And this is about as woo as I gets. And I just look at my own personal journey. You know, I was in like the right place at the right time and so many instances in my career to learn certain things that would help me later and like, you know, met certain people at the right time. And of course, you know, there's like a analytical bias most humans have where they're ascribing meaning to certain interactions that are actually truly random, statistically random.

• 2:33:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:33:26Speaker 00

  But I've talked to enough people that say the same thing. And I just, there's something going, there's a, there's like a hidden hand part of the phenomenon that I can't, it's like a certain Genesee quote, I can't like point my finger on that I think is really interesting, too. But that's about as woo as I get. I don't know.

• 2:33:44Speaker 01

  That is the nature of the fabric of the universe? Or do you think that this has something to do with extraterrestrial intervention?

• 2:33:50Speaker 00

  That's like, almost like going back to remote viewing. Because, you know, the Stargate program, Girl Flame, all the different names it had, like, that was adjacent to the program. Why do you think we were doing the psychic spying program besides competing with the Soviets and Chinese on the same topic is because that's the key unlock to some of the technology, potentially. If you could figure out how to, it's what they call it, like BCI, Brain Computer Interface. But like, clearly, there's some sort of organic to tech interface. And it's clearly consciousness based. Not to digress on your.

• 2:34:22Speaker 01

  No, but this is what Lazar said as well, that there was no instruments. And that these things controlled this with their mind.

• 2:34:29Speaker 00

  It depends on the class of vehicle. And like, there's like, really weird shit that we have no idea how it works to like, oh, that kind of looks familiar.

• 2:34:36Speaker 01

  What's the weirdest of the really weird shit?

• 2:34:39Speaker 00

  I mean, you just have like the eggs and stuff. They're like, usually unmanned. Usually. And it's like, is this like a probe? It's just, it's like a fucking egg, you know, like, and I know Jake Barber has talked about publicly recovering them, you know, and, you know, I heard, I, you know, heard about that elsewhere. People who were, were dealing with that. It's just, it's kind of weird. It's like this amorphous thing. It's like the movie like Arrival, right?

• 2:35:05Speaker 01

  Right. That's a great movie.

• 2:35:06Speaker 00

  Yeah. Is the technology like embedded in the skin? Like, what is going on here? There's like no, no obvious control surfaces. Like, what's going on?

• 2:35:15Speaker 01

  Right. Right. What, what kind of timeline do you think we're looking at in terms of like really changing the world?

• 2:35:23Speaker 00

  I think the, the basic affirmation, the threshold disclosure, you know, call it, we're not alone, we have stuff kind of thing. It has to happen before Trump leaves because I don't trust another president to follow through on the president's directive. Because, you know, it's the, the, the next administration can be like, we're peeling that back, baby. We're not touching this again. So.

• 2:35:43Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 2:35:44Speaker 00

  I think he has to do it before he leaves office. And if I were advising the president, and if the team's listening, I would do it at least six months before the election, just so there's some sort of recovery period and kind of, and whatnot. But I'm just a dude. Obviously, I want it as soon as possible, like most Americans listening to this.

• 2:36:05Speaker 01

  How do you envision that something like that would take place? Would they have a broadcast? Would they show video and explain?

• 2:36:13Speaker 00

  That was a plan at one point for a previous administration is they were going to have like, one of those like.

• 2:36:18Speaker 01

  Was this the Bush administration with the House put off days?

• 2:36:21Speaker 00

  No, this was HW.

• 2:36:24Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 2:36:25Speaker 00

  And so I'm sure the video sucked. It was probably has some synthwave government, you know, film from like the 1989, like, you know, and it was probably going to be horrible and dry. But there was going to be this like audio visual kind of a companion to some sort of announcements. Now, I don't know all the, the specific details after that. Clearly, there has to be a physical rollout.

• 2:36:49Speaker 01

  God, I hope that video exists. It's out there in the archives somewhere. We could watch it after disclosure.

• 2:36:54Speaker 00

  I know. We need to have like a throwback, like, you know, see the old shit.

• 2:36:57Speaker 01

  Well, if you think about like, how long it's been that people have like slowly become more and more aware of this, it's, it seems like a long time, but our lives are very short.

• 2:37:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:37:08Speaker 01

  And the reality is, if this thing, this, this phenomenon has coexisted with human beings and guided us, aided us in some way.

• 2:37:19Speaker 00

  And that's why I don't think people should be too fearful. I mean, obviously, there's a yin and yang in the universe. There's malevolent, benevolent. But clearly, there's some homeostasis going on right now. And there's been this, call it cohabitation, for the lack of a better way to describe it. And, and clearly, nothing crazy has happened. So.

• 2:37:38Speaker 01

  Some of this is in conjunction with AI becoming sentient and that this was a part of the process?

• 2:37:44Speaker 00

  I don't know that to be a fact. However, I, like I said earlier in the interview, I am fearful that AI is going to figure some of this shit out, whether it be tech, technology stuff, or the fact that we're not alone, just by looking at all the disparate databases and correlating data, especially if it gets connected to any sort of genetic record, medical record sensing system. And I think that's a real threat that if I were to advise the White House, they need to think about that, like, third party unexpected disclosure pathway that's super, artificial superintelligence provides, both from a technology risk perspective,

• 2:38:24Speaker 00

  but also revealing some of this, too. And, and once again, you know, that artificial silicon based AI is like, is that the infrastructure that we need to communicate to some of this organic intelligence, too? Because it's able to learn and figure out modalities of communication. I don't know. So, it's pretty crazy.

• 2:38:44Speaker 01

  Okay. It's a lot to absorb, Dave.

• 2:38:45Speaker 00

  I know.

• 2:38:46Speaker 01

  Thank you very much for being here, man.

• 2:38:48Speaker 00

  I appreciate it.

• 2:38:48Speaker 01

  It's always great to talk to you. And thank you for all your hard work and exposing all this stuff. I mean, I really wonder, like, if it wasn't for you doing all this, how much would we know?

• 2:38:57Speaker 00

  I don't know, man. I just, I hope this is the last time I gotta send it on, on an interview. And it's been tough, really tough. Like, it's been debilitating. I've gone through a lot, you know, been in danger. And I've done a lot of stuff for this country over the years. But I'm honored to be that guy, I guess, and, and risk it all to, you know, unveil this truth, because it really was a core secret of the United States. So.

• 2:39:21Speaker 01

  I certainly think it moves the needle.

• 2:39:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, I appreciate it.

• 2:39:24Speaker 01

  Thank you. All right. Bye, buddy.