#2283 - Billy Corgan

Billy Corgan is the lead singer of The Smashing Pumpkins and host of "The Magnificent Others" podcast. The Smashing Pumpkins' latest album, "Aghori Mhori Me," is available now. www.smashingpumpkins.com This video is sponsored by BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com/JRE Don’t miss out on all the action - Download the DraftKings app today! Sign-up using dkng.co/rogan or with my promo code ROGAN. GAMBLING PROBLEM? CALL 1-800-GAMBLER, (800) 327-5050 or visit gamblinghelplinema.org (MA). Call 877-8-HOPENY/text HOPENY (467369) (NY). Please Gamble Responsibly. 888-789-7777/visit ccpg.org (CT), or visit www.mdgamblinghelp.org (MD).21+ and present in most states. (18+ DC/KY/NH/WY). Void in ONT/OR/NH. Eligibility restrictions apply. On behalf of Boot Hill Casino & Resort (KS).1 per new customer. $5+ first-time bet req. Max. $150 issued as non-withdrawable Bonus Bets that expire in 7 days (168 hours). Stake removed from payout. Terms: sportsbook.draftkings.com/promos. Ends 3/16/25 at 11:59 PM ET. Sponsored by DK. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The Joe Rogan Experience.

• 0:13Speaker 01

  What's happening, man? Good to see you. Thank you for having me back. My pleasure. How many times a day do you get bombarded by the whole Bill Burr thing? When it gets into the family and people I haven't talked to for 20 years. Then do you have to break character and tell the truth? No, you know, the thing is, this is what's crazy. Okay. You want the whole setup story? Sure, sure, sure, sure. So where I tape my podcast is in one of Howie Mandel's buildings, and he has another building in this area. So I was working on something and I was supposed to go on Howie's show that day. And they said, "Howie, you'll meet you out in the street," or something, for whatever reason. So I go out in the street, and the first thing Howie says to me when he sees me, he

• 0:58Speaker 01

  goes, "Here comes Bill Burr." And I go, "You too? Like, do you know this story?" And he said, "No, I don't know about it." And I said, "You know what? Heck with it. I'm just gonna tell it on your show, so don't ask me anymore." And I went on the show, and I told this story about how 10 years ago, my stepmother came to me and said, "Do you know who Bill Burr is?" I'd never heard of Bill, didn't know who he was, because I don't really consume much, you know, popular culture. I had no idea he was a famous comedian. He could have been the lawnmower guy. Looked up Bill, first thing I saw was like, "Oh, my God, he looks just like Daddy." When I was 18 years old, at an IHOP, on my 18th birthday, my father told me, "You have a half-brother that I sired at the same time as you, whose name is Bill." So suddenly, these facts come together, my mother telling me these stories.

• 1:41Speaker 01

  I talked to my dad subsequently about it, and he was very cagey about it. And when I said, "Why won't you tell me where this person is or who this person is?" He said, "I'm trying to protect you."

• 1:53Speaker 01

  So when my stepmother had told me, it kind of made sense like, well, if my half-brother is this super famous comedian, my dad, in a way, wouldn't want me to know because he wouldn't want me to feel like I was number two because Bill's so famous. I know, it sounds crazy, right?

• 2:08Joe Rogan?

  You think that's why he's trying to protect you?

• 2:10Speaker 01

  Well, I don't know. So, so fast forward to Howie saying something on the streets. I was like, you know what? I'm just gonna say something. And I swear to God, hand on my heart, last time I was with you in California, I almost pulled you aside after we were on and I was gonna tell you the story because I knew you knew Bill and I was gonna back-channel see if there was anything to the story from Bill's side.

• 2:29Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:30Speaker 01

  So imagine seven, I think, six or seven years since we talked on your show.

• 2:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I don't even know.

• 2:34Speaker 01

  2018, somebody said to me today, but, so, anyway, sorry to talk over you, but the point is, is, so here I am, fast forward, I'm just sick of seeing memes of my face with Bills and so I just decide on a spur of the moment, you know? So Howie, of course, loves it. But I said on Howie's show that first time, I don't think Bill's my half-brother. I don't think, I don't think there's anything there other than like an uncanny resemblance. Fast forward, the thing comes out, it gets a little bit of social media and then it goes away. And I think, good. And Bill didn't say anything, so I figured Bill was kind of like, whatever, it was a mild amusement, you know? He could have made a joke out of the whole thing and he didn't. So then Howie calls me and I'm in LA working recently and Howie's like, we've come on the show, Bill's gonna be on. And I said, is Bill cool with it?

• 3:18Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, no problem. So then I go there and it's like, it turns into this thing that you see happening on camera. It's weirdness times, it's like a, like a, like a skit, but it's real. And, and Bill's on me, then Bill's on Howie and it gets just, okay. So, I just told you I have basically everything I know, okay? I have people I've known for 20, 30 years coming up to me going, what do you think? And I said, I don't, I don't, I don't think we're related. I mean, yeah, there's a resemblance, but I don't think we're related. Well, did you get a DNA test?

• 3:51Speaker 01

  And I'm like, no, I don't, there's nothing to get a DNA test for. Well, I think he's your brother. So people that know me and I'm telling him I don't think he's my brother, now they want a DNA test to prove it. That's how much it's taken on a life of its own.

• 4:03Joe Rogan?

  Do you think it's just because they want a DNA test because it's fun if he's your brother?

• 4:07Speaker 01

  No, no, they're convinced.

• 4:09Joe Rogan?

  For real, for real?

• 4:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:10Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 4:11Speaker 01

  For real, I swear to God. I mean, people I'm close to, people that were at my wedding, I'm like, they're like, no, you need a DNA test.

• 4:18Joe Rogan?

  Did Bill's dad know, well, did your dad know Bill's mom?

• 4:24Speaker 01

  No, my father wouldn't talk to me about it at all. Okay, some more context.

• 4:30Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 4:30Speaker 01

  My stepmother in that same time, 10 years ago, when she told me that she thought Bill Burr was my half-brother.

• 4:35Joe Rogan?

  Jesus.

• 4:35Speaker 01

  This guy I don't know, right? I mean, just imagine if I tell you, hey, do you know Joe Polanski?

• 4:40Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 4:40Speaker 01

  And you look up and it's a famous comedian, that's, you know, I mean, that was.

• 4:42Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right.

• 4:43Speaker 01

  So, in that same thing with my stepmother, she told me that she thought my father had sired 12 children.

• 4:51Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 4:51Speaker 01

  You know, uh.

• 4:53Joe Rogan?

  All over the place.

• 4:53Speaker 01

  All over the place. He was a traveling musician and a whore to his own admittance. So it kind of makes sense. He once told me he'd slept with a thousand women. So, 12 out of a thousand, you know what I mean?

• 5:04Joe Rogan?

  Normal odds.

• 5:05Speaker 01

  The ma- yeah, the math are.

• 5:06Joe Rogan?

  It's actually pretty good.

• 5:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:09Speaker 01

  And so, um, when I went to my father and I told him what my stepmother had said, he got really cagey and wouldn't tell me anything. He promised me that he would write down the names of the illegitimate children on a piece of paper so I could find them after he died.

• 5:22Joe Rogan?

  Oh, my God.

• 5:23Speaker 01

  And he died, he's died, and there's no paper.

• 5:25Joe Rogan?

  Oh, my God.

• 5:27Speaker 01

  So now I got people wanting DNA tests because they're convinced that Bill is my half-brother.

• 5:32Joe Rogan?

  Is Bill willing to do a DNA test?

• 5:34Speaker 01

  I think that's ridiculous. You know what I'm saying? It's like.

• 5:36Joe Rogan?

  No, you have to do it.

• 5:37Speaker 01

  No, no, that's what I'm saying. I mean, first of all, to Bill's credit, he's been, you could, well, everything you saw on camera was his, I think, his general irritation on the thing, but he also kind of finds it funny because he's a comedian.

• 5:50Joe Rogan?

  I thought it was a skit. I thought you guys put together a skit. I really did. I thought you got, because I thought, you know, Bill does a lot of acting. I thought you guys were just fucking around. You like pro wrestling. I thought you guys just decided to troll the world.

• 6:03Speaker 01

  Let me put it to you this way. Have you ever seen it, and I, well, I'm assuming, but you tell me if I'm wrong. Two guys get in the ring to roll around a bit, right?

• 6:13Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 6:13Speaker 01

  They're bros, they're gonna roll around a bit.

• 6:15Joe Rogan?

  Uh huh.

• 6:15Speaker 01

  Emotions kick in, and next thing you know, somebody's tapping somebody out.

• 6:19Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 6:19Speaker 01

  Do you ever see that happen?

• 6:20Joe Rogan?

  For sure.

• 6:20Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 6:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 6:21Speaker 01

  So, in the, in the heat of that moment with Bill and Howie egging it on, you know, like, the emotionality of the thing came out because it's a sort of an, it's, it's sort of a weird thing. We're like, we're suddenly in the middle of a situation, it's like a meta-situation.

• 6:37Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 6:37Speaker 01

  So, yes, on some level, we were playing along, but then it starts to become like, wait, this is kinda weird. And then it starts to kick in, and then Billy Bush is in there, and it just, it took on a life of its own. So what I'm saying is, is there's enough there that people are all over me to come up with more answers, but you see what I'm saying?

• 6:56Joe Rogan?

  I do see.

• 6:57Speaker 01

  It's like, it spun out of control into its own thing. Now it's a DNA test problem.

• 7:01Joe Rogan?

  Oh my god.

• 7:02Speaker 01

  Which is a bit on its own, like, we're gonna do like a livestream with, we'll do it here, me, you, and Bill, like, you know what I mean?

• 7:07Joe Rogan?

  Well, people would trust you if the two of you got together and just both took a DNA test and found out you were brothers.

• 7:12Speaker 01

  I don't think Bill's my half-brother, but he, he looks...

• 7:16Joe Rogan?

  Well, listen, there's a simple way to find out, I'll finance it. How much is a DNA test? How much does a DNA test cost to find out if someone's your sibling, Jamie? Let's find out. It can't be that much money, it's 2025. I'll do it.

• 7:29Speaker 01

  We'll get it sponsored.

• 7:30Joe Rogan?

  Yes, maybe 23andMe, but didn't they get, sell out to somebody, somebody buy them? 200 bucks!

• 7:36Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 7:37Joe Rogan?

  I'll pay 200 bucks to find out. Why wouldn't you wanna know? If I thought somebody was my half-brother, I'd be like, for real?

• 7:44Speaker 01

  I, I don't think it's necessary.

• 7:45Joe Rogan?

  If I found out Sebastian Manos Alco was my half-brother, I'd be like, kinda, I could kinda see that, maybe.

• 7:54Speaker 01

  Again, all I know is, I don't think, but when I look at him, he looks just like my father.

• 7:59Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 8:00Speaker 01

  Like, he doesn't look, we look similar-ish, but when, when I look at him, he's got the same thing as my dad had. I don't know how to, you would know if somebody looked like your dad, right?

• 8:08Joe Rogan?

  Sure, yeah, yeah.

• 8:08Speaker 01

  So that's where it's freaky for me.

• 8:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 8:10Speaker 01

  And, and... You know, if you want to play the game one step further, you've got two world-class communicators. People might argue against me calling myself a world-class communicator, but I've been doing it for over 30 years.

• 8:21Joe Rogan?

  You're a world-class communicator.

• 8:22Speaker 01

  So, it's not too crazy that you'd have one guy go this way and one guy, you know what I mean?

• 8:28Joe Rogan?

  Not at all, no. Especially when you consider how many different ways you've gone. Like, not just smashing pumpkins, but pro wrestling, you know?

• 8:35Speaker 01

  And now I'm into your game, which is podcasting.

• 8:38Joe Rogan?

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• 9:20Joe Rogan?

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• 10:05Joe Rogan?

  So you're in all kinds of stuff, and you easily could have been a comedian as well.

• 10:09Speaker 01

  I don't think I'm that funny, but...

• 10:10Joe Rogan?

  You're funny, there's a lot of people that are professional comedians that aren't as funny as you.

• 10:15Speaker 01

  I assume you know Carrot Top?

• 10:16Joe Rogan?

  Sure, very well.

• 10:17Speaker 01

  Okay, so Carrot Top and I have become friends recently.

• 10:19Joe Rogan?

  He's great.

• 10:20Speaker 01

  Love him, he's a total sweetheart.

• 10:22Joe Rogan?

  Sweetheart of a guy.

• 10:23Speaker 01

  And really...

• 10:23Joe Rogan?

  Genuine.

• 10:25Speaker 01

  Just a great guy to know.

• 10:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 10:27Speaker 01

  But as you know, because you do this for a living, suddenly everybody wants to start pitching you bits. So I made the mistake of pitching Carrot Top a bit. I thought I had a good bit for him. And he didn't respond, you know what I mean? And then I texted him like an hour later and say, hey, did you just get that bit? He said, and he goes, yeah, that's why I didn't respond.

• 10:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, people get tired of that. Also, it's like most comics, they want it to be their idea. Like, the whole idea, what you're doing on stage is essentially like, here's the world in my eyes.

• 10:58Speaker 01

  I see. Yeah, it's like somebody telling me how to write a song. I get that.

• 11:00Joe Rogan?

  Right. It's one thing for another. Comics, we give each other tags. Like, if someone says something, I said, you know what else you can add to that? Add this.

• 11:08Speaker 01

  Oh, I see.

• 11:08Joe Rogan?

  A buddy of mine was doing this bit on the guy who tried to shoot Trump. And we were bantering back and forth, and we came up with like, the perfect line, like, oh!

• 11:18Speaker 01

  There it is.

• 11:18Joe Rogan?

  But it was already his premise and his bit. Comics add to stuff for each other, for fun. It's like, we just, we sort of, you're tossing the ball around in the green room, and then someone will come up with a new line for you. We'll do that, but no one ever says, hey, you should go on stage and talk about this.

• 11:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I've had a couple professional comedians, Carrot Top, preeminent among them, kind of let me know you're not that funny.

• 11:45Joe Rogan?

  It's probably not that you're not that funny. First of all, you sent a text. Premises in texts are terrible.

• 11:51Speaker 01

  Oh, right, okay.

• 11:51Joe Rogan?

  You really have to be...

• 11:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, tone, tone is probably...

• 11:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's everything. And you really have to be there with the person. And you really have to like, say it the way you thought it, and then they get it. Because texts are just, unless it's just genius, unless it's just like, rock solid structure, like, oh my god, this joke can't fail.

• 12:08Speaker 01

  We do have a movie idea that we're working on.

• 12:10Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah?

• 12:11Speaker 01

  And it's a good one.

• 12:12Joe Rogan?

  What is it?

• 12:12Speaker 01

  I can't give it away. I'll tell you privately, but it's a good one.

• 12:15Joe Rogan?

  You and Carrot Top?

• 12:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:17Joe Rogan?

  Oh, nice.

• 12:17Speaker 01

  That he likes.

• 12:18Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 12:19Speaker 01

  He likes my movie idea.

• 12:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. I'm telling you, a lot of it is that comics don't like people coming to them with a premise. They only want, and they only want help from other comics, generally.

• 12:32Speaker 01

  Okay, I get that.

• 12:32Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. It's just one of those things. And even then, it's touchy. Like, I would never help somebody I don't know. I would never go up to them, hey, you should say this. Like, never, never, never, never, never. It's gotta be like, your friend, they know you love them, you're fucking around, you can talk. You can say, did you ever try to say that? You know what you left out? Like, you forgot, and they're like, oh, I forgot about that. Yeah, that's a big part of the bit.

• 12:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. I never tried stand-up, so that's...

• 12:56Joe Rogan?

  You could do it.

• 12:56Speaker 01

  It seems terrifying to me.

• 12:58Joe Rogan?

  Eh, so singing onstage. You could do it.

• 13:01Speaker 01

  It's a lot easier to scream with, you know, fifty thousand watts behind your voice, you know, than than tell a joke and bomb.

• 13:06Joe Rogan?

  Is it though? Cause you could suck at that and then it's terrifying too.

• 13:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. I mean, it's all hard to do. Anything at the highest level, it's hard to do.

• 13:15Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 13:16Joe Rogan?

  You're doing arena shows. I've watched a lot of people perform in front of arenas, singing. It's hard. That's a hard thing to do. Most people freak the fuck out.

• 13:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know. Some, that that part doesn't bother me, strangely.

• 13:27Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's why you're good at it.

• 13:29Speaker 01

  Right? I feel like I'm, I I kinda know what I'm doing up there for some reason.

• 13:32Joe Rogan?

  Well, also I think it's like, there's a buildup, right? You start working in small clubs, you make your way to larger places, and then eventually you sell more and more records. Like Smashing Pumpkins is like, they burst on the scene and sort of keep, you guys kept getting more and more popular, so you kinda got accustomed to it.

• 13:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, you do normalize to the insanity of standing in front of ten thousand people.

• 13:54Joe Rogan?

  Same as comedy. You normalize.

• 13:56Speaker 01

  What's the biggest, uh, show you've ever done, comedy?

• 14:00Joe Rogan?

  Twenty-five thousand.

• 14:01Speaker 01

  That's a lot of people.

• 14:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, me and Chappelle, we sold out the Tacoma Dome. And we were, we were standing backstage. I'll never forget it. He, he looked at me, like right before he goes onstage, he goes, "Not a lot of motherfuckers get to do this." We were just laughing how fun, much fun we were having. Twenty-five thousand people, it was crazy. In the round, too, in the round. It was very fun, though. It was very fun.

• 14:25Speaker 01

  I actually know Dave from way back in the day.

• 14:27Joe Rogan?

  He's the best.

• 14:28Speaker 01

  When he first, first kinda burst on the scene, we used to hang out a little bit. So I feel like it's cool that I knew him.

• 14:33Joe Rogan?

  Like, what year is this?

• 14:34Speaker 01

  Like, er, like, remember he did like a couple of things on SNL, like, really early on, or he was kind of around TV. It was like when he, the first year he was on television, I don't remember. I'd see him in New York and he was hanging out with some other, maybe it was because he was hanging out with SNL people.

• 14:48Joe Rogan?

  Ah.

• 14:48Speaker 01

  And I'd see him out in New York back, gosh, with like, late nineties?

• 14:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 14:52Speaker 01

  Early two thousands, and so I knew him when, I don't wanna say he was a nobody, but I-

• 14:56Joe Rogan?

  He wasn't famous yet.

• 14:57Speaker 01

  He wasn't a known, I, I'd seen him on TV, but he wasn't like a household name like he is now.

• 15:01Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right.

• 15:03Speaker 01

  So there was this one night where I was out, I did a benefit for Roger Waters and, uh, and military vets. It was amazing in New York. It was all these guys who were like, single, double, and triple amputees playing Pink Floyd music. And so I did this concert with, uh, with, um, Roger. So afterwards, somebody came and said, "Oh, Chappelle's in this hotel," you know? And I hadn't seen him for a few years, and I said, "Well, I know him." And you could see people thinking like, "You don't know him." You know what I mean? So when he came by, I was like, "Ah!" You know, it was like that moment, like, "See, motherfuckers, I do know him." So what a great guy, though, such a...

• 15:35Joe Rogan?

  He's a genuine person.

• 15:36Speaker 01

  What a... yeah.

• 15:37Joe Rogan?

  He's another sweetheart, just a sweet, sweet guy. Easy to hang out with, very fun.

• 15:42Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. I mean, the guy, like, guys with that kind of mind is just, it's just, it blows my mind, because they just... I mean, you could, I just, I don't know, I could sit, listen to for hours.

• 15:50Joe Rogan?

  He's also, he's kind of a legend for what he did, you know?

• 15:53Speaker 01

  Oh, walked away?

• 15:54Joe Rogan?

  Left Comedy Central in the height of Chappelle's Show, passed up on a $50 million deal, went to Africa, hung out there, and then came back and didn't do stand-up for 10 years.

• 16:05Speaker 01

  I didn't know that, I didn't know that he didn't do stand-up for 10 years, part of it.

• 16:08Joe Rogan?

  He would do stand-up occasionally for free.

• 16:11Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 16:11Joe Rogan?

  So what he would do is he'd bring like a speaker to the park, and like, set up a mic in the park in Seattle and just start doing stand-up. And everybody would be like, "Holy shit, it's Dave Chappelle."

• 16:19Speaker 01

  Was he making any money, or was he just...

• 16:20Joe Rogan?

  Nope. Just living off of his Chappelle's Show money. He had a ton of money.

• 16:24Speaker 01

  I didn't know that part.

• 16:25Joe Rogan?

  He made millions of dollars from the show, passed up on 50, but probably made...

• 16:28Speaker 01

  I remember that.

• 16:29Joe Rogan?

  And, you know...

• 16:30Speaker 01

  Remember it became a big conspiracy thing?

• 16:32Joe Rogan?

  Yes, it became a conspiracy of why he left.

• 16:34Speaker 01

  That he was saying no to the Illuminati and all that stuff?

• 16:37Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right, right. Those are always fun.

• 16:39Speaker 01

  That's some Alex stuff, right?

• 16:40Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 16:40Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? It's like, you're like, "What?"

• 16:42Joe Rogan?

  Are you sure that's what happened? I, I kind of know what happened, because the, the, the people that were running Comedy Central back then, I had dealt with. There were, it was, it was nice folks, shouldn't have been running comedy. They shouldn't have been telling comedians what to do, and they wanted to kind of...

• 16:58Speaker 01

  They were back to telling comedians what to do.

• 16:59Joe Rogan?

  It was, well, it was a situation where a bunch of non-creatives had gotten involved in the process. I'm sure you're familiar with that, that's...

• 17:06Speaker 01

  This is so, so dear to my heart.

• 17:08Joe Rogan?

  It's disgusting. It's the worst, the worst aspect of show business. You, you start dealing with money people, and then they start doing something that they're not supposed to be doing, which was like adding, changing, directing, moving ideas. And then you're dealing with literal morons that somehow or another got this job, and they're telling you how to do what you're doing, which is what... Is the best sketch show in the world.

• 17:31Speaker 01

  And still, still popular.

• 17:33Joe Rogan?

  It's as good as any sketch show that's ever existed and they only did two seasons. So, he just decides, I'm just gonna be an artist. I'm just gonna hang out. I'm not gonna make any money. He would do like, show up at open mic nights, so they'd have open mic nights for like musicians, play folk songs, and at the end of that, like midnight, he would pull up and start talking, and by fifteen minutes into the set, everybody had told everybody that Dave Chappelle's there. So then the place is packed.

• 17:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:58Joe Rogan?

  And he did this for like ten years, man.

• 17:59Speaker 01

  I didn't know that part.

• 18:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, he just fucked around. We'd, you'd hear about him just showing up places and fucking around.

• 18:04Speaker 01

  I love that.

• 18:05Joe Rogan?

  And then somewhere, I think it was like two thousand thirteen, fourteen, starts doing standup again.

• 18:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:11Joe Rogan?

  And then boom. Yeah, that's, that's really how it all went down.

• 18:16Speaker 01

  It's, it's really a testament to his po- the power of his talent because my wife, who's thirty-two, she loves him. And it's so cool because like, we went to see him, I think, at, uh, Radio City Music Hall. And it's so cool because it's like, you know, I'm fifty-seven, she's thirty-two, it's like, that he can speak to both of us.

• 18:35Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 18:35Speaker 01

  So.

• 18:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 18:37Speaker 01

  Right, right to the heart. It's, it's really a rare gift. I mean, he, I, you know, you got a picture out there, Richard Pryor, who was, you know, from Illinois like myself and my father loved Richard Pryor, and so because of my father's love of Richard Pryor, I paid a lot of attention to Richard when I was, when I was a kid. And he strikes me, he's got that, that transcendent ability.

• 18:54Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 18:54Speaker 01

  To somehow almost heal the country.

• 18:56Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 18:57Speaker 01

  With his messaging.

• 18:58Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 18:59Speaker 01

  Eddie Murphy had that too in his own way, but, but to me, Chappelle's more in the, the Pryor mode of like, somehow he can address issues that are uncomfortable.

• 19:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 19:08Speaker 01

  And, and, and, and I know a lot of people have issues with what he says, but I, I ultimately see what he's trying to do is heal things.

• 19:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it might, very much like Pryor. Whereas Eddie Murphy was just really, really funny. You know, it's just really, really funny. And he's still to this day, I always, to this day, I'm like, why doesn't that guy come back? He, he did this one thing when he got the Mark Twain Award where he did this whole impression of Bill Cosby finding out, they had to give away one of his awards because of, he was caught up in the scandal. And so he's doing a Cosby impression and it's fucking genius. It's dead on. He's doing like brilliant stand-up and he hasn't touched stand-up in 25, 30 years.

• 19:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, you would think he would just do one victory lap tour.

• 19:48Joe Rogan?

  If he wanted to, it would be sold out.

• 19:50Speaker 01

  Talk about stadium.

• 19:51Joe Rogan?

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• 20:32Joe Rogan?

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• 21:17Joe Rogan?

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• 21:58Joe Rogan?

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• 22:19Speaker 03

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• 22:42Joe Rogan?

  I guarantee you that guy would be the best. He was so fucking talented, but just decided it was just too much. I'd rather just do movies.

• 22:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:50Joe Rogan?

  Which is kind of crazy. But Pryor never did, obviously. Pryor kept doing stand-up the entire time.

• 22:55Speaker 01

  Has anyone ever tried to pull you in the movie orbit?

• 22:57Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Yeah, I'm not.

• 22:58Speaker 01

  Like action hero?

• 22:59Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I'm not interested. I'm not interested.

• 23:01Speaker 01

  They only offer me parts like a serial killer, so I always turn it down.

• 23:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, there's been a few tempting ones, but no, I don't have that kind of time. And I also don't have the desire to do it. It's not something I enjoyed.

• 23:14Speaker 01

  Sitting on that set all day seems like a...

• 23:16Joe Rogan?

  It's a lot of work. It's hard. And to be a real good actor, like a really good actor, you know, the rehearsing and the practicing and the going over the character, it's like, I couldn't do it because I don't have the time. It would require everything I have.

• 23:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:30Joe Rogan?

  If you really wanted to do it right, if I really wanted to do a role in a movie where I played somebody, I would have to fucking really spend time not doing anything but that, you know?

• 23:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:42Joe Rogan?

  It's just not. That's not my jam. There's people out there that do it. I'm glad they do it because I love movies.

• 23:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:49Joe Rogan?

  But I don't want to do it.

• 23:50Speaker 01

  Did you watch the Oscars?

• 23:52Joe Rogan?

  I did not.

• 23:52Speaker 01

  Me neither.

• 23:53Joe Rogan?

  I never watch award shows. I don't think you should give away awards for art. I think it's silly. I don't get it. I think it's dumb. I think it's all, really who's making money is the people that are putting it on television. I mean, that's really what it is. It's just a big money grab. They're all just selling advertising and everybody's wearing a tux and it's like.

• 24:12Speaker 01

  Well, certainly the public's growing disinterest in awards shows is some indication that people no longer believe in either the integrity of the process or the, or the, maybe the intent of the process.

• 24:25Joe Rogan?

  Right. Well, the integrity of the process and the intent are both compromised, right? Because there's, there's people that, like you could kind of guess just by the subject of some movies whether or not they're going to win an award.

• 24:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:36Joe Rogan?

  Because, you know, people feel obligated to address this very important message.

• 24:40Speaker 01

  The guy who won Best Picture, I was actually in talks with about five years ago. Because he had made some really cool movies. He made one on, on cell phones, I think it was called Tangerine, about prostitutes working the streets in LA. And he got two street workers, I believe, and then he cast them. So it was a movie. It wasn't a documentary. It was a really beautiful movie. And then he did that movie called The Florida Project, where he, at the end of the movie, they actually snuck into Disney World and shot stuff and somehow Disney let it go.

• 25:10Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 25:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. But it was a kind of about the social milieu around a place like Disney World, like what goes on outside the gates. People living in motels and kind of perpetual tourist economy, kind of living hand to mouth and kind of using the tourist, the white whale of tourism to just get enough money. Because there's always some turnover, you know, whether it's running scams and stuff. So he made a really beautiful movie about that as well. So I was in talks with him for a while about doing something and then it just didn't go anywhere.

• 25:36Joe Rogan?

  Like what kind of scams?

• 25:38Speaker 01

  I can't remember because it's been a few years since, but it's just the idea that anywhere there's a tourist economy, there's money to be made.

• 25:45Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 25:45Speaker 01

  You know, there's the guy standing on the corner selling brochures or hustling you into a van to see where the stars live. It was kind of about that.

• 25:52Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right.

• 25:53Speaker 01

  It was about a cast of characters living in the shadow of, of this idealistic place.

• 25:58Joe Rogan?

  Right, just like those Hollywood tour people that you would get in LA.

• 26:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Those were the weirdest fucking people.

• 26:06Speaker 01

  I always get offended when I walk down Hollywood Boulevard and they think I want to go on it. You know what I mean? It's like, I don't know what it is. They, I feel like, I don't want to go on your tour.

• 26:14Joe Rogan?

  You look like a guy.

• 26:15Speaker 01

  Totally. I get offended, like, I don't want to go on your tour.

• 26:17Joe Rogan?

  Just got off the boat.

• 26:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:19Joe Rogan?

  Just came here from Nebraska.

• 26:20Speaker 01

  Totally, yeah. Like, gee, I wonder where the stars live, you know?

• 26:24Joe Rogan?

  That's such a creepy thing to do. Just drive around and point, that's where Ben Affleck sleeps.

• 26:28Speaker 01

  But they've been doing it since the 30s.

• 26:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, forever, yeah.

• 26:31Speaker 01

  I mean, I, I have some of the old brochures, you know, see where Greta Garbo lives and all that stuff.

• 26:36Joe Rogan?

  It's just always been weird. Well, back then, it was even weirder because those were the first stars.

• 26:42Speaker 01

  Well, back then, I mean, they, they, they went way out of their way to turn them into gods, you know, that they airbrushed the shit out of every photo and, and they, they cover up scandals. There's that one famous scandal where one of the top male stars, maybe it was Gary Cooper, Cary Grant, ran somebody over in a car.

• 26:58Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 26:59Speaker 01

  You know about that?

• 27:00Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 27:00Speaker 01

  You might want to look that one up.

• 27:01Joe Rogan?

  I know the Fatty Arbuckle one.

• 27:03Speaker 01

  No, it was a top A-level star. I think he was drunk, ran over somebody in a car, and somebody from the studio went to jail for like seven years and took the rap.

• 27:12Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 27:13Speaker 01

  So that the star could stay out and the studio paid the guy like a stipend to go to jail. It's a very famous story. So some guy did seven years or something.

• 27:22Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy. You know, there's a similar story about that in China with the bodies exhibit, you know, that.

• 27:29Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 27:29Joe Rogan?

  There was a woman who was married to a mayor of one of the cities in China. And this woman who was married to this mayor, the, the mayor was having an affair with a TV newscaster. And she got the TV, he got the TV newscaster pregnant. And. Apparently, there was a confrontation between the woman and the wife. And the lady winds up missing. She gets scrubbed from the internet. I mean, she's scrubbed. There's only like a photo of her on the internet. And then, all of a sudden, in the Body Works exhibit, there's an eight-month-pregnant woman.

• 28:06Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 28:06Joe Rogan?

  Who they believe is this newscaster. Here's the other part. The woman who's the mayor's wife is also the manager of the local plastination factory, where they take the bodies and they emerge them, they immerse them in these solvents and turn them into statues. This woman was the manager of the place that produced the woman with the eight-month fetus in her body.

• 28:36Joe Rogan?

  And you can still see it, like, it's on tour. You can go see this lady, who was most likely murdered. So, then, she didn't just kill that lady. She poisoned some British businessman. So she poisons this guy, and she has to go to trial. Well, she doesn't go to trial. Some other woman goes to trial, who doesn't look anything like her. Raises her right hand, the whole thing, goes to jail. So, she probably paid some family off, some poor family. I'll give you a million dollars. Give up your daughter. She goes to jail. Everybody who's writ- it's not a bad jail. She's gonna do yoga, play checkers.

• 29:13Speaker 01

  Have you heard the ones where like, uh, because there's so much plastic surgery in Asia, where guys are suing their wives because they marry some woman that they think is hot, and then the kid comes out and the kid's not very good-looking?

• 29:23Joe Rogan?

  Jawline's totally different, different nose. Yeah, there's a lot of plastic surgery over there. In Korea, it's nuts. They do their eyes in this, like, strange doorway.

• 29:30Speaker 01

  Somebody told me as much as 75% of the women in South Korea have surgery.

• 29:34Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 29:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:34Joe Rogan?

  Is it really?

• 29:34Speaker 01

  Somebody who's Korean told me that. I don't know if that's true.

• 29:36Joe Rogan?

  Google that, Jamie. We need to find this out. This is important information.

• 29:40Speaker 01

  Because last time I was in Korea, I was like, wow, these women here are really hot. Like, this was like, woman after woman after woman. And somebody pulled me aside and said, "Bro, that's like, that's just all plastic surgery. That's not real."

• 29:50Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 29:52Speaker 04

  As many, as up to 50% or higher, maybe, some people have said.

• 29:56Joe Rogan?

  A lot of liars. A lot of them ladies are lying about it. Up to 50% or higher. Well, higher could be like 75%.

• 30:04Speaker 01

  I like, I like this whole new business of, um, like, plastic surgery tourism. Where it's like cheaper to get on a plane and go somewhere.

• 30:10Joe Rogan?

  Oh, like, go to Turkey and get your transplant.

• 30:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, somebody was recently trying to talk me to go to South Korea to get some work done on my face.

• 30:16Speaker 01

  It's like, so like, what?

• 30:18Joe Rogan?

  I guess the idea would be you could go and recover over there. Your neighbors don't have to see you with bandages over your head.

• 30:23Speaker 01

  No, I think it's the idea. It's cheap. It's cheaper.

• 30:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, cheaper.

• 30:26Speaker 01

  Cheaper and better because they can do stuff there that we can't do here yet.

• 30:29Joe Rogan?

  Oh, really? What can they do there that if we can't do here?

• 30:32Speaker 01

  Apparently they have some new thing that's unbelievable.

• 30:36Joe Rogan?

  What is it?

• 30:37Speaker 01

  Something, it's, they tried to explain it to me. It doesn't make any sense. Some kind of new facelift that's not a facelift or something.

• 30:44Joe Rogan?

  A facelift?

• 30:45Speaker 01

  Like a non-invasive facelift.

• 30:46Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 30:47Speaker 01

  The guy, it's a relative of mine through marriage, a Chinese relative. And he's in that business and knows the Koreans over there in LA and all this. And he was saying, he was saying in five years, this will be the number one thing. So you might as well get to Korea now. I, it's the stuff I hear when I'm sitting around the hot pot dinner, you know?

• 31:07Joe Rogan?

  Non-invasive facelift. Isn't that weird that like, that one of our biggest fears is that your face zags?

• 31:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I don't know how I would feel if I wasn't in the entertainment business, right? I mean, I mean, you're in a cosmetic business on some level, you know what I mean?

• 31:22Joe Rogan?

  On some level, I guess.

• 31:23Speaker 01

  I know it's not just your brand.

• 31:24Joe Rogan?

  It kind of helps me a little being uglier.

• 31:25Speaker 01

  I never, I never thought of you as ugly. I'm not, I'm not attracted to men per se, but, but I never thought you were unattractive.

• 31:32Joe Rogan?

  Definitely less attractive than I used to be. That's just time and booze and not so much sleep.

• 31:38Speaker 01

  Success creates a glow around a man.

• 31:40Joe Rogan?

  It has a little bit of a glow.

• 31:41Speaker 01

  Right?

• 31:41Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it can.

• 31:42Speaker 01

  Little bit of a, little swagger.

• 31:44Joe Rogan?

  Well, just age beats us all. You don't win. Nobody wins. Everybody looks worse at 80 than they do at 20.

• 31:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:51Joe Rogan?

  Just how it goes.

• 31:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. I'm 57, so you kind of look down.

• 31:55Joe Rogan?

  I'm 57 too.

• 31:55Speaker 01

  Oh, are you?

• 31:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 31:56Speaker 01

  When's your birthday?

• 31:57Joe Rogan?

  August.

• 31:57Speaker 01

  Okay, I'm older than you. I'm March. But you know, you look down that, that, that road and you're like, like,

• 32:04Speaker 01

  like, am I gonna be all right when I get to 80, you know?

• 32:06Joe Rogan?

  Very few people are. You know, there's a few people at 80, like, wow.

• 32:09Speaker 01

  When you're calling UFC like 972 or like, I don't, you know, I don't know what the number would be, but.

• 32:15Joe Rogan?

  I'm worried about Bruce Buffer. Cause Bruce, Bruce Buffer, he puts out so much energy. I was telling the guys the other day, one day, he's just gonna be in the middle screaming someone's name and he's just gonna fucking check out. Like right in the middle. It's time. Boom. His eyes will roll back.

• 32:32Speaker 01

  But that's, for any performer, that's the way you go out. You go out on your shield, right?

• 32:35Joe Rogan?

  That would be amazing. I don't want him to die. I love him. But if he did die that way, I'd be like, what a legend. What a legend.

• 32:43Speaker 01

  The Buffers, right? Both of them.

• 32:44Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah. Isn't it crazy that they didn't know each other until they were like 30?

• 32:47Speaker 01

  I only have-

• 32:47Joe Rogan?

  He didn't even know he had a brother?

• 32:48Speaker 01

  I only have-

• 32:49Joe Rogan?

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• 33:31Joe Rogan?

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• 33:44Speaker 03

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• 34:15Speaker 01

  I only have one Michael Buffer story if you want to hear it.

• 34:17Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 34:19Speaker 01

  So, I went to see Holyfield Lennox Lewis at Madison Square Garden.

• 34:24Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 34:25Speaker 01

  And I was hanging out with all the cool people at the time. So, I'm in the fourth row and it was infamously a draw. It was almost all English tourists that had come in for the fight. They were booing the National Anthem. I mean, it was a pretty riotous-

• 34:37Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 34:37Speaker 01

  -atmosphere. And, you know, I don't know anything about fights, but it was a pretty boring fight and it-

• 34:46Speaker 01

  Lewis seemed to be a little bit more agile because of youth and all that. Anyway, so, right when I- You know, they're, they're, whatever they're doing HBO, they're over there in the corner. They're doing their bit, you know, they mean, they're talking before they go to the scorecards. And a guy leans forward, the, the ref, to tell someone in the second row, might have been Don King. And I heard him go, "It's a draw." Right? So I, I knew it was a draw like 60 seconds before they announced it. And I was with a lot of well-known people. And I said, "Run." And they're like, "What do you mean?" I said, "We gotta run." Like, and I started grabbing people and we ran out of Madison Square Garden. And we're almost totally out the building, you know, kind of where you get to the concourse part.

• 35:32Speaker 01

  And you hear the decision and it's like, and people start, like, here comes the riot vibe.

• 35:37Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 35:38Speaker 01

  So somehow we ended up, because it got so-

• 35:39Joe Rogan?

  Was it because the decision was bad?

• 35:41Speaker 01

  Well, the English people didn't like that it was a draw.

• 35:44Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 35:45Speaker 01

  Because Holyfield was on the older side and-

• 35:47Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 35:48Speaker 01

  I don't know, it's not a well-renowned fight.

• 35:50Joe Rogan?

  I can't remember it.

• 35:51Speaker 01

  It was just a draw. It was a stone cold boring fight, but because it was a draw and all these English people were mad, and Don King was involved, so it was like all that typical brouhaha that was going on in boxing at the time. Anyway, so because of the, suddenly the riotous, or potentially riotous, situation, the police started like making people go different ways, like funneling traffic or something. You know, it was almost like they got like Code Red or something, because like suddenly it got really weird. So then we couldn't get out of the building. So somebody was like, somebody recognized somebody in our party, "Follow me." And so then, next thing we know, you know, we get, we end up like in the VIP backstage part where it's safe. And, and there's, and there's, you know, Michael Buffer on a chair.

• 36:32Speaker 01

  And he wasn't talking to me, but he's talking to somebody, and I heard him go, "That's bullshit." Like in that voice, that's all I remember. "That's bullshit."

• 36:40Joe Rogan?

  That's, so was he talking about the decision?

• 36:41Speaker 01

  He thought the decision was bullshit, you know?

• 36:44Speaker 04

  Letterman's card was heavy for Lewis.

• 36:46Joe Rogan?

  Wow, 117 to 111, Harold Letterman, who's always dead on the money. Harold Letterman was always right.

• 36:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, so they're saying, as it got called, like, this is a travesty.

• 36:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I mean, again, I'm not a, I mean, I'm not a fight aficionado, but I, I thought Lewis was slightly better.

• 37:02Joe Rogan?

  Wow, I forgot about this fight. I completely forgot about this fight. There's so many fights from this era that were incredible. That was an amazing era for heavyweights.

• 37:13Speaker 01

  And this is when Don King was still running everything.

• 37:16Joe Rogan?

  Did they have a rematch?

• 37:18Speaker 01

  I don't, I honestly don't remember.

• 37:20Joe Rogan?

  You don't think so?

• 37:21Speaker 04

  No, I think so. I was typing and it said two, let me see.

• 37:24Speaker 01

  That's bullshit.

• 37:25Joe Rogan?

  There's a lot.

• 37:26Speaker 01

  With that great voice.

• 37:28Joe Rogan?

  He's still truckin'. He's still truckin'. He still announces huge boxing fights.

• 37:33Speaker 01

  Like, like, like, cause you ever get that, like, like, like, somebody wants you to do their bar mitzvah or anything? You ever get those requests?

• 37:40Joe Rogan?

  No, those don't make it to me.

• 37:42Speaker 01

  Will you come do my bar mitzvah?

• 37:44Joe Rogan?

  Who won this one?

• 37:45Speaker 01

  Is that the rematch? Had to be Louis, right?

• 37:48Joe Rogan?

  I would imagine.

• 37:51Speaker 04

  Well, similar Letterman card.

• 37:53Joe Rogan?

  Similar, similar card. Let's see if they robbed in twight, they gave it to him. Alright.

• 37:58Speaker 01

  Well, they got their, they got their rematch. Um, no, you get this thing like, hey, will you come do my?

• 38:03Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right.

• 38:04Speaker 01

  I wonder what Michael Buffer gets to show up somewhere. You know what I mean?

• 38:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's probably like Saudi Arabia. They have him come over there and introduce someone's birthday.

• 38:11Speaker 01

  Like, is it, is it like, half a million, half a million thing?

• 38:13Joe Rogan?

  Probably more. Depends. You know, I mean, like.

• 38:17Speaker 01

  You know, in my business, we become privates.

• 38:19Joe Rogan?

  Right. I saw Stone Temple Pilots. They played Dana White's 40th birthday party.

• 38:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:26Joe Rogan?

  And, uh, there was no one in the room other than UFC employees, and they put on a show like it was a fucking sold-out arena. I mean, full blast went, they didn't go through the motions at all. It was a phenomenal show.

• 38:40Speaker 01

  That means Dana paid him.

• 38:41Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, it was a lot of money.

• 38:43Speaker 01

  I mean, totally. I love, I love those guys.

• 38:44Joe Rogan?

  But they were so professional. It was like, it was so impressive. And because they were so, like, powerful on stage, everybody just started paying attention.

• 38:53Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 38:53Joe Rogan?

  Because it kind of broke out in the middle of this party.

• 38:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:55Joe Rogan?

  Where this birthday party, we're all standing around tables, eating food, having fun.

• 38:59Speaker 01

  I've done a few things that's always a bit awkward.

• 39:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 39:02Speaker 01

  Which is weird, cause they're all paid gigs.

• 39:04Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 39:04Speaker 01

  But something about a paid, paid gig feels different.

• 39:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's, there's a lot of entitlement that's attached to, like, someone's paying you to come perform at their birthday party.

• 39:15Speaker 01

  You see the guy's wife going, who, who's this?

• 39:17Joe Rogan?

  Right. There's that, too. The people that aren't fans, you're like, oh, no. Yeah.

• 39:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, those are weird gigs, cause then you go, how much?

• 39:28Joe Rogan?

  I can have one shitty night for a million dollars.

• 39:34Speaker 01

  I mean, I'd like to tell you, I haven't been there, but I've been there.

• 39:37Joe Rogan?

  Ron White did one last year in Vegas. And he was talking about, he's like, I don't, I didn't want to do it. I kept saying no, and they kept going higher and higher. And eventually got to a point where like, oh, fuck it, I'll do it. And he goes, it wasn't worth it. He, he goes, it was one of the worst fucking nights of my life. He goes, all the time I'm doing it, I'm thinking, I shouldn't have fucking done this. He said, they didn't laugh, they barely paid attention. It's like, why am I here? But if like, you're a giant fan, like say, if you're a giant Ron White fan, and you hire Ron White, but your like, office doesn't give a shit about comedy, and they just want to like, have fun and drink and

• 40:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:14Joe Rogan?

  eat hot dogs.

• 40:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I went to a billionaire thing once, where the guy had hired Diana Ross.

• 40:19Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 40:19Speaker 01

  It had to at least be a million dollar gig for her.

• 40:22Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 40:22Speaker 01

  And maybe seven hundred, eight hundred people.

• 40:25Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 40:26Speaker 01

  You know? And you're like, wow, I mean, basically a private concert with Diana Ross, I mean,

• 40:31Joe Rogan?

  That's pretty dope. If you were really into it, and people paid attention, it'd probably be fun. Small intimate concert.

• 40:37Speaker 01

  I've done them where they're fun.

• 40:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah?

• 40:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:38Joe Rogan?

  What percentage?

• 40:41Speaker 01

  Less than fifty. We don't get, to be fair, or not fair, we don't get asked to do it a lot. I don't think we're on most people's bingo's card for a private event.

• 40:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 40:50Speaker 01

  I think, I think my, my, my rep precedes me, you know?

• 40:53Joe Rogan?

  It's like a Beyonce thing.

• 40:55Speaker 01

  Although, I mean,

• 40:56Joe Rogan?

  She does like, giant ones in front of-

• 40:58Speaker 01

  Have you ever heard some of the numbers that some of those pop people get, come out of Saudi Arabia?

• 41:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 41:01Speaker 01

  Like fourteen mil and

• 41:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, for one show.

• 41:04Speaker 01

  And nobody calling us for, you know what I mean?

• 41:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 41:07Speaker 01

  I'd take that phone call.

• 41:08Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's one of those things, if like, who was that, um, the richest man in India, his son had a birthday, and it was like, the most extravagant birthday of all time?

• 41:17Speaker 01

  Fifty, fifty mil on entertainment alone? Something crazy like that.

• 41:22Joe Rogan?

  God, it's so crazy. That's so much money.

• 41:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I wish there was a perfect formula before, but there isn't. Because that's what I mean. I mean, we play, every time we play, we basically get paid.

• 41:35Joe Rogan?

  I think it was a wedding, not a birthday party, right? It was a wedding.

• 41:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, you got like.

• 41:39Speaker 04

  And Lennox Lewis was there.

• 41:42Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, Lennox Lewis was the announcer. Yeah, it's just, that's the weird world of extravagant amounts of money, like unbelievable amounts of money, where you want to hire Kanye to come to your house.

• 41:55Speaker 01

  There you go. His wedding was a hundred million. That's where Beyonce.

• 41:57Joe Rogan?

  They probably spent over a hundred million for Anant's sister, Isha's wedding in 2018. The ceremony featured a performance by Beyonce.

• 42:04Speaker 01

  I mean, if I'm Beyonce's manager, she's not going over there for less than 20, 25.

• 42:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, why not? They have so much money. They won't even notice it. They'll make it back tomorrow on the stock market.

• 42:15Speaker 01

  I don't know. I'm saying that, so.

• 42:17Joe Rogan?

  Once you get to that goofy hun- that was a hundred and how many million? One ninety? How much did that guy? No, I'm sorry. Um, how mu- billion. How much is he worth?

• 42:26Speaker 01

  Sixteen billion.

• 42:27Joe Rogan?

  Hundred sixteen, yeah. You're making twenty million dollars every day, probably. It's like rolling in constantly.

• 42:35Speaker 01

  I mean, you've, you've met, I mean, you just had a billionaire in here.

• 42:39Joe Rogan?

  Couple of days ago.

• 42:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, you've met your share of billionaires. It's always an interesting thing how they, how they, how they spend or don't spend their money.

• 42:45Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 42:46Speaker 01

  It's, there's no consistent guide for billionaires.

• 42:48Joe Rogan?

  No. I like the Jeff Bezos way. Wear tight shirts, get a yacht, have a hot girlfriend, let's fucking go. That's what you're supposed to do when you've got two hundred and fifty billion dollars. You're not supposed to be a fucking weirdo and wear a sweater and go visit Haiti. No, you're supposed to be ballin', go to the Mediterranean, popping corks with models, let's go.

• 43:11Joe Rogan?

  Get a, get a million dollar watch. Who gives a fuck?

• 43:13Speaker 01

  To make that decision, see, I'm not there yet.

• 43:17Joe Rogan?

  Well, the weirdest one is billionaires that compare themselves to super billionaires, and they feel poor. Like Brian Callen was telling me about his buddy who's worth, I think, three billion dollars. And he's like, I really need to fucking up my game, because he's friends with a guy who's worth eighty billion dollars. So he feels poor compared to his eighty billion dollar friend.

• 43:39Joe Rogan?

  Boy.

• 43:40Speaker 01

  I like to be poor like that.

• 43:41Joe Rogan?

  The forest for the trees.

• 43:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know.

• 43:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 43:47Speaker 01

  Not this lifetime, I don't think.

• 43:49Joe Rogan?

  It doesn't seem like fun. It seems like the amount of stress and energy that must be required to acquire that much fucking money.

• 44:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, Jimmy Chamberlain of The Pumpkins, the drummer, is friends with Jimmy John, the sub, the subkey.

• 44:06Joe Rogan?

  Ah, okay.

• 44:07Speaker 01

  So I know Jimmy John a little bit. And we were at dinner one night in Nashville at a place he owns with other people. And one of my buddies started pitching him on like some kind of money thing. And I just saw his face change because everybody in the world wants to, we're back to pitching ideas, right?

• 44:23Joe Rogan?

  Of course.

• 44:24Speaker 01

  And Jimmy John knows this mutual friend, so it's not as rude as it might sound coming out of my mouth. But at some point, he looks at me and goes, "Tommy, you know how I got that money? I made a lot of fucking sandwiches."

• 44:41Speaker 01

  That was the way he shut him down.

• 44:42Joe Rogan?

  The...

• 44:44Speaker 01

  Like, like, I know how, I know what I had to go through to make that money. Like, you just, you just see me as a walk-in ATM.

• 44:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, it just changes the dynamic of the friendship now, too. Now he's not going to be able to trust your friend.

• 44:58Speaker 01

  Well, nobody trusts, nobody trusts Tommy.

• 45:00Joe Rogan?

  Tommy's a mess.

• 45:01Speaker 01

  Tommy's infamous, actually.

• 45:03Joe Rogan?

  Infamous?

• 45:03Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 45:04Joe Rogan?

  Infu-dash-mess.

• 45:07Speaker 01

  I've literally been walking down the street in foreign countries and strangers will come up to me and say, "Oh, you know Tommy?" He's like, he's just the legendary character in the entertainment business.

• 45:15Joe Rogan?

  What was he trying to pitch Jimmy John on?

• 45:17Speaker 01

  Uh, some kind of investment scheme or something. Because my friend Tommy collects billionaires.

• 45:25Joe Rogan?

  Oh, boy.

• 45:25Speaker 01

  I call it, he plays billionaire Lotto. He's hoping that when one of them knocks over, they'll leave him, you know, a taste.

• 45:35Joe Rogan?

  How bizarre. He's like a vampire familiar.

• 45:37Speaker 01

  Well, what's interesting about Tommy is his uncle was the founder of Hard Rock Cafe. So he grew up in a family with money. So instead of somebody who you figure was poor and aspirational and want to hang out with billionaires, he actually came from money.

• 45:52Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 45:52Speaker 01

  So he knows how to speak the language of wealthy people. And so he's kind of generally welcome in those circles where I, you know, I grew up in the suburbs. I don't know how to roll in that world. And so, yeah. But yeah, Tommy, I think he's probably up to about seven or eight billionaires that he counts as friends.

• 46:07Joe Rogan?

  And what does he do for a living?

• 46:08Speaker 01

  No one knows.

• 46:10Joe Rogan?

  No one knows?

• 46:10Speaker 01

  That's the legend of Tommy.

• 46:12Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 46:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, and in fact, I pitched Tommy once I'm making a documentary called Who the Fuck Is Tommy Litnik? That's his name, Tommy Litnik. And he doesn't like the idea.

• 46:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I wonder why. He just outed him.

• 46:23Speaker 01

  But, I mean, we don't have time for it, but I could make you a list of 50 people that are super famous, like Bono on down, who have pulled me aside and go, "What's the deal with Tommy?" And just the fact that we're talking about Tommy will really please Tommy, but he'll take umbrage. In fact, I have to tell you a story about my father too, but he'll take umbrage with the way I'm portraying him.

• 46:47Joe Rogan?

  I'm sure he will.

• 46:48Speaker 01

  The story I wanted to tell you about my father was, when I was on your show, I told you a story about how I found a double-barreled sawed-off shotgun under my father's bed. It was in a guitar case.

• 46:58Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 46:58Speaker 01

  Well, my father heard the show about a month after I told the story on your show. And so I get this text from my father, this is when he's still alive, obviously, and he goes, "Yeah, I heard what you said on Joe's show." And I'm like, you know, you're looking at your phone like, "Here it comes," you know, because I thought he was gonna be pissed at me. He goes, "There's one thing you left out of the story, waiting, text. The shotgun wasn't loaded." That's all he wanted me to know. Like somehow he made it better.

• 47:24Joe Rogan?

  How bizarre. Your father sounds like a fucking character.

• 47:28Speaker 01

  He was unbelievable. Unbelievable.

• 47:30Joe Rogan?

  What did he play?

• 47:32Speaker 01

  Guitar.

• 47:34Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 47:34Speaker 01

  Great musician, really, truly great musician. He's the classic guy that should've made it and didn't. So when I made it, it made the whole thing really weird.

• 47:43Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 47:44Speaker 01

  Because he looked at me and said, "How did my schlubby kid make it, and I didn't?"

• 47:50Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 47:50Speaker 01

  He must've gotten lucky. He must've done something. Because if it didn't work for me, how could it work for him? So that was a weird, a weird thing. But he was talented. I mean, he really was talented.

• 48:01Joe Rogan?

  That's great. Did he, did you get, did you feel resentment? Did you get along with him after that?

• 48:06Speaker 01

  My father had a lot of issues with drugs. It was always kind of like it can be with addicts. It was like, depending on the day. One day, he would tell me I was the greatest thing that ever happened to him, and I was the number one son, and da-da-da, and two weeks later, he's telling me he wished I'd never been born, and I should've been aborted. So it was a weird, it was weird. It was a weird thing. So that's why, that's why that story's funny to me because he didn't mind that I told you about finding a sawed off shotgun. He minded that I implied it was dangerous when he made sure that it wasn't loaded, so it was okay. That's the way his brain worked.

• 48:37Joe Rogan?

  Do you believe in that it wasn't loaded?

• 48:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 48:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah?

• 48:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. He was, um, he should have been an arch criminal or something, but he didn't have the nerve.

• 48:47Joe Rogan?

  So he just became a guitarist?

• 48:49Speaker 01

  No, he was, he was a drug dealer and he, he, he used to run drugs and guns for the mob.

• 48:55Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 48:55Speaker 01

  Oh, he, he would do stuff like, uh, Melrose Park is kind of an infamous city just outside the Chicago city limits, where a lot of the mob wise guys lived. And he was friends with the kid of a wise guy. And the kid would dabble because he was protected because his father was a made man. So we'd go over to that guy's house for hours and just hear these crazy stories about the mob. And my dad would pick up something in a satchel and deliver it, you know, like it was, I thought that's, I was eight years old going through all this shit.

• 49:23Joe Rogan?

  Wow. What a crazy environment.

• 49:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:27Joe Rogan?

  So you're eight years old, he's running drugs and guns?

• 49:30Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 49:31Joe Rogan?

  Wow. Did you see like a lot of shit?

• 49:34Speaker 01

  I, I saw a lot of stuff, but it was like, you know, when, when adults are trying to hide stuff from you, but not really.

• 49:40Joe Rogan?

  Uh huh.

• 49:41Speaker 01

  You know, so like, for example, they would stay in the basement all night and party, whoever he was with, musicians, whatever.

• 49:47Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 49:47Speaker 01

  So I'd come down at night and there'd be coke everywhere. And rolled up twenties.

• 49:51Joe Rogan?

  How old were you?

• 49:51Speaker 01

  On Black Sabbath mirrors. I was like seven, 10.

• 49:54Joe Rogan?

  Oh my God.

• 49:55Speaker 01

  So I had a feeling, call it intuition, I had a feeling that he, he wanted me to clean up, but not the mirrors. And he was, and I was like, what's on the mirror that, you know, that you left behind? He was like, oh, that's a, have a cold or something, but yeah, it's good you didn't get rid of it. And they're like, why do you need the rolled up 20? Oh, it's just easier to, you know, it was like, so you knew it was bullshit, but you're 10, you don't know what coke is.

• 50:21Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right.

• 50:22Speaker 01

  You don't have any concept of what they're doing, but you know something's going on.

• 50:25Joe Rogan?

  And this was constant, this was normal?

• 50:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, my dad would do stuff like he'd take me to lunch with his mistresses and stuff and introduce them as his friends and.

• 50:32Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 50:32Speaker 01

  So it was all kind of in plain sight weirdness. But, you know, you'd be driving down the street and suddenly you were in a drug deal and it was just.

• 50:40Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 50:41Speaker 01

  He told me, he told me he was shot at nine times and stabbed three times.

• 50:46Joe Rogan?

  Holy shit.

• 50:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, you want to hear, it was one of my favorite stories.

• 50:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 50:52Speaker 01

  So, um, uh, the band had a van, um, he had a van and we bought it off him and it was our band van for a while. And then after we were, we didn't need it anymore because we got too big, he wanted to buy it back. So we sold it to him. So one day I went over to his house and, uh, if, you know, if this is the driver's thing, well, right behind the driver's, where the driver's head would be, but in the middle of the car was a bullet hole. So I said, did somebody shoot at you? He goes, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I said, well, what happened?

• 51:21Joe Rogan?

  Exactly.

• 51:22Speaker 01

  He's like, yeah, I, I was, I was stopped over there on Narragansett and, and some guy came up and I thought he needed something like a dollar or something. So I rolled down the window. As soon as I did, he put a gun through the, put a gun through the window at my head. And then, you know, I hit the gas and sped off. And so as I went, he tried to shoot me, but then he missed and the bullet went in behind my head and I got away. That's the story he told me at the time. So years later, the story came back up somehow. And he goes, oh, that wasn't the real story. Here's the real story. So same setup. He's sitting somewhere, but it was a drug deal. He rolls down the window to make the drug deal. Guy puts a gun at his head. He does hit the gas. The guy does try to shoot him.

• 52:04Speaker 01

  But because my father's mad now, he spins the van around and he tries to run the guy over. And the guy's trucking down the street. And the guy ran into a gas station. So my dad came barreling at the gas station at full speed in this van and he was going to run the guy over. And he said he reached a point where the guy was gonna, if, if the guy stopped, he would run him over. But the guy leapt a fence and the only way to kill the guy was to have to run the fence and ram into a house that was next to the gas station. So he hit the, hit the brakes and didn't run the guy over. So that was the real story. So back to the kid thing, excuse me. That's why it's so hard to pin this whole thing down because there's so much smoke, you know?

• 52:44Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 52:45Speaker 01

  Like, he did tell me there was another kid named Bill. That's a real thing. And, and when he told me when I was 18, he lied and said he didn't know where the kid was. Well, when my stepmother brought up the whole Bill Burr thing later, and I asked him, he admitted that he did know where the kid was, but he didn't want to tell me.

• 53:02Joe Rogan?

  What did Bill think about this? Like, the possibility that his mother had an affair with your dad?

• 53:07Speaker 01

  I don't, I don't think Bill gives it any credence. I mean, that's my sense of it.

• 53:13Joe Rogan?

  He just thinks it's bullshit.

• 53:14Speaker 01

  I don't know. Honestly, I don't know what Bill thinks, you know what I mean? Because, because-

• 53:18Joe Rogan?

  I can see how you would think it'd be possible because your dad was insane. Your dad sounds like a fucking maniac.

• 53:23Speaker 01

  I mean, the only, the only way-

• 53:24Joe Rogan?

  A Scorsese movie maniac.

• 53:27Speaker 01

  Well, put this way, if a person doesn't believe-

• 53:29Joe Rogan?

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• 54:12Joe Rogan?

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• 54:56Joe Rogan?

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• 55:32Speaker 01

  That somebody is their father, not their real father, that they grew up with. And I do know people who've had that. They grew up with somebody and they've, in fact, it just happened in my family.

• 55:41Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 55:41Speaker 01

  That a cousin of mine found out that her father was not her father and she's in her 60s. Cause of a DNA test.

• 55:47Joe Rogan?

  Oh, my God.

• 55:47Speaker 01

  So it is possible that people can find out later in life. Oh, by the way, that guy that you thought was your dad, he ain't your dad. Here's your real dad.

• 55:55Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 55:56Speaker 01

  Right. So it does happen, but I don't get any sense from Bill that he believes that's possible.

• 56:01Joe Rogan?

  Got it.

• 56:01Speaker 01

  So the only way it would be possible if, if Bill grew up in some kind of weird lie.

• 56:07Speaker 01

  You see what I'm saying? And I don't believe that.

• 56:09Joe Rogan?

  Right, right. Well, I don't know. He's, I don't know how much he's talked about his family.

• 56:16Joe Rogan?

  But that's, I just can't imagine a kid coming downstairs and seeing cocoa over the mirrors and Black Sabbath albums and people blacked out and empty booze everywhere. Like, like this is a normal thing at your house to have these wild parties.

• 56:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:32Joe Rogan?

  And you're a little kid.

• 56:33Speaker 01

  To be fair, I think a lot of people grew up in that atmosphere. I think we just don't hear about it.

• 56:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but not a lot of people grew up with a dad that's running guns and drugs for the mob.

• 56:40Speaker 01

  That's true. That's true. That is true.

• 56:42Joe Rogan?

  That's so insane. That's such a crazy way.

• 56:47Speaker 01

  Like, we would have conversations, like, we would have conversations, because, you know, as you get older, you start to ask questions, right?

• 56:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 56:53Speaker 01

  So I'd say, Dad, aren't you worried, like, if you get pulled over? You know, because he would carry, like, a lot of fucking weed in the car, just for his own personal use. He smoked constantly, like, my whole childhood, like, I mean, I just remember joint after joint all day. At the dinner table, in the car, I'd contact high and the whole thing. So finally, at some point, I said, Daddy, aren't you worried about if you get pulled over? And he, he, like, popped the, the, the, the engine, you know, old cars, you know, when you pop the trunk. Now, what is it called? The hood?

• 57:22Joe Rogan?

  The hood.

• 57:23Speaker 01

  He had figured out some system where you, if you put, if you put weed in a, in a, in a thing full of whiskey. He said that the dogs couldn't pick up on the scent.

• 57:35Speaker 01

  So there was like a compartment in the engine compartment, like a thing that was full of whiskey. And then he would put a waterproof baggie with the weed in the whiskey. And so that if a dog came around the car, it would never, never smell it.

• 57:47Joe Rogan?

  That's hilarious.

• 57:48Speaker 01

  So it was like life lessons, you know, from pop.

• 57:50Joe Rogan?

  How many, but dogs can only smell one thing. They're only looking for one thing. When you train a dog, you train a dog either for a bomb or you're training for heroin. You don't train a dog for everything. Like, what do you got? Three barks for coke. The, the way they train dogs is it's one thing that they're trained to smell.

• 58:06Speaker 01

  They have one.

• 58:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. They're, if they're looking for bombs, they're only looking for bombs. They're not going to stop you for weed.

• 58:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:13Joe Rogan?

  Which is like the dumbest thing to train a dog for, if you train a dog for weed. I mean.

• 58:17Speaker 01

  Well, now, yeah.

• 58:17Joe Rogan?

  Now, it's the dumbest, but they still do. They still have weed dogs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If they smell weed, they'll call the weed dog.

• 58:24Speaker 01

  Is weed legal in Texas?

• 58:26Joe Rogan?

  It's not. It's weird. It's decriminalized. There was actually a lawsuit that Ken Paxton tried to stop Dallas from decriminalizing weed. And they just lost in court. So Dallas now marijuana is decriminalized for personal use. It's stupid. It should be the whole country. It should be legal, just like whiskey is. Don't do it if you don't want to do it. But, you know, you should probably know what the effects are. And we should probably study what the actual correct doses per person, like we know with drinks. Like, one drink is one drink, right? You know what it is. You go to the, the bar, you get a shot of tequila. That's what it is. It's one shot of tequila. Everybody's pretty much, it's standard. With weed, you don't know what.

• 59:08Speaker 01

  Oh, I see, yeah.

• 59:09Joe Rogan?

  You don't know what's the right amount. Like, should I take two hits or three hits? What? You can build up a tolerance, like your dad, you're smoking weed. Like, if I smoked weed all day long, I'd be a fucking mess. I'd be paranoid and freaked out. I'd be like, everyone's out to get me.

• 59:22Speaker 01

  But he was.

• 59:24Joe Rogan?

  And he just kept doing it. That's what's even crazier. Weed back then was not weed today. It's, you probably could get some weed that's commensurate with weed today. Acapulco Gold or something wacky, but generally-

• 59:39Speaker 01

  They have all these crazy strains now, right? Isn't that the-

• 59:41Joe Rogan?

  Now they have scientists, botanists got involved in the game. And they're making super weed.

• 59:47Speaker 01

  I noticed one thing, because I was in LA for a couple of months this winter. And when they first, whatever, decriminalized in LA, it seemed like everywhere you went, everybody was smoking weed. It became like a thing. You couldn't go anywhere without smelling, you know, the telltale smoke. And now it seems to have calmed down. And I think it's almost like, now it's like Holland back in the day. Where it's like, it's so normal, it's no longer a thing to like openly smoke weed. So I think it's gone back to a, oh, it's not that big a deal, which I think is probably best. Because there was a year there where you would go there and everybody was stoned. You couldn't get service at a restaurant. Like, I mean, it was like people staring off into space.

• 1:00:24Joe Rogan?

  Edibles. Yeah. Well, for sure, you're gonna have like a normalization period after a while. Where it's like weed's normal. It's just like, everyone's not drunk all the time, even though you can get liquor everywhere. You choose when to imbibe and when not to, or not to at all. That's, you're supposed to have choices. You're an adult, you're an adult human being. The analogy I always make is imagine if it was the three of us in a room. Just us three, and we were the only people on earth. We lived on an island, and Jamie just decided he doesn't want us smoking weed. And so Jamie passed a law, and he wants to lock us up if we smoke weed.

• 1:00:58Speaker 01

  Oh, I see.

• 1:00:59Joe Rogan?

  That's just as ridiculous as 300 million people. And one adult decides that the other 300 million people shouldn't be allowed to smoke weed. Like, do it if you want to do it, don't do it if you don't want to do it. But you can't, putting people in a fucking cage for doing something that they want to do that harms no one, but you don't want them to do, is fucking insane. It's just insane.

• 1:01:22Speaker 01

  I grew up, because of my father's life, I mean, I don't know what age I became conscious of my father doing drugs constantly, but let's say I was five years old, so that's 1972. So I've been in weed culture since 1972.

• 1:01:36Joe Rogan?

  Jesus.

• 1:01:37Speaker 01

  So, I always thought it was-

• 1:01:38Joe Rogan?

  Old Vietnam War days.

• 1:01:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I met all those guys too, you know, these guys with PTSD and all that stuff.

• 1:01:43Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:01:44Speaker 01

  So, I guess what I'm after is-

• 1:01:48Speaker 01

  I never understood what the big deal was. And the only thing that freaks me out are people that are really into weed. Like, you know what I mean? Like the 420 crowd.

• 1:01:57Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:57Speaker 01

  Like, that's their identity. That freaks me out.

• 1:01:59Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. It's a crutch for some. It's a tool for others. You know, it's a creativity tool for a lot of people. You know, Carl Sagan was one of them. Carl Sagan.

• 1:02:09Speaker 01

  Carl Sagan was a stoner?

• 1:02:10Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah. Huge stoner. He's got one of the best quotes on states of consciousness that are that are available to people under cannabis that are not available any other time. See if you can find that quote. It's a brilliant quote. Yeah, Carl Sagan. I mean, he kind of had to keep it under wraps a little bit because marijuana was really illegal back then. But he still wanted to talk about it sometimes. It just depends on the person. It's like everything else. There's some people that should not drink. They drink and then their eyes turn to shark eyes. They're gone and they go away. That's it. "The illegality of cannabis is outrageous and impediment to full utilization of a drug,

• 1:02:52Joe Rogan?

  which helps produce the serenity and insight, sensitivity and fellowship so desperately needed in this increasingly mad and dangerous world." That's not the quote. That's a quote. But the other one had to do with states of consciousness that you could achieve.

• 1:03:09Speaker 01

  It's a very stoner-like thing to say.

• 1:03:11Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Hmm. Well, I'm sure he talked about it a bunch. But either way, he was a a regular cannabis user. It's supposed to be like everything else. You know, like, you could have wine in your house. It doesn't mean you're gonna drink wine all day, every day. You know, just, you should not be high all the time.

• 1:03:31Speaker 01

  I just don't want the 420 people to hear me that way.

• 1:03:33Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's like, those people, like, the MAGA people, or like, the fucking insane clown posse people. Like, it's just like, it becomes their whole thing. That's the thing. There's nothing wrong with going to an insane clown posse show, but if you want to be a juggalo, and that's your whole identity is being a juggalo.

• 1:03:50Speaker 01

  Juggalo is a whole, you know.

• 1:03:51Joe Rogan?

  It's a whole thing.

• 1:03:52Speaker 01

  We've done business, because of the NWA, we've done business with the juggalos.

• 1:03:56Joe Rogan?

  They seem like fun guys.

• 1:03:57Speaker 01

  They're great. No problem with them. You know, Violent J, as he's known, was in the NWA for a hot second.

• 1:04:04Joe Rogan?

  Oh, really?

• 1:04:05Speaker 01

  And he's kind of refired his promotion now. Juggalo, I guess, J C W? Juggalo Clown Promotions or something? So a lot of my wrestlers wrestle for him, too.

• 1:04:14Joe Rogan?

  Oh, okay. I didn't even know.

• 1:04:16Speaker 01

  We had a wrestling promotion. They did back in the day. They used to wrestle. I know they wrestle for WCW and TNA. So they were wrestling at the highest level for a while, when they were sort of in the 90s times. When they were on MTV and all that stuff.

• 1:04:31Joe Rogan?

  I just love that they have like a carnival of outcasts. You know, they like, all the outcasts have a home in the Juggalos. And they're all, like, they have these gatherings of the Juggalos. They look like they're having the best fucking time. Like, they're all like-minded people, all partying together.

• 1:04:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it's freaky when people admit secretly being Juggalos. Have you ever had that experience?

• 1:04:56Joe Rogan?

  They pull you aside?

• 1:04:58Speaker 01

  A friend of mine, former porn star Sasha Grey, like, sent me a picture of her at like 17 in the Juggalo makeup.

• 1:05:05Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow. Seventeen.

• 1:05:07Speaker 01

  And you're like, this is so out there.

• 1:05:09Joe Rogan?

  Juggalo makeup? Do they dress?

• 1:05:11Speaker 01

  Cause they do that, it's a very specific. They do, they do very specific makeup.

• 1:05:15Joe Rogan?

  The Juggalos, do they have different makeup than the Insane Clown Posse? Or is it the same kind of makeup?

• 1:05:20Speaker 01

  It seems to me there's this, there's this kind of a particular way they do the Juggalo makeup.

• 1:05:24Joe Rogan?

  Jamie, can you please Google Juggalo makeup?

• 1:05:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think it's a black and white. I don't know if there's rules, but it's, uh, yeah, clown makeup.

• 1:05:31Joe Rogan?

  What's it look like? Like that guy right there?

• 1:05:33Speaker 01

  Yes, but that's Violent J on the top there.

• 1:05:38Speaker 01

  But like, they'll do their makeup kind of like how Jay is.

• 1:05:40Joe Rogan?

  Okay, so some of the people in the audience choose to make their face up. I don't see anybody there with face makeup though in that picture.

• 1:05:47Speaker 04

  It's hot, it's the summer.

• 1:05:49Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah, there you go. Sweating.

• 1:05:51Speaker 04

  When it washed off.

• 1:05:51Joe Rogan?

  Sweating off your makeup.

• 1:05:52Speaker 01

  See, like the girl there?

• 1:05:54Joe Rogan?

  That split tongue, that dude in the middle, that's a fucking commitment. That's a commitment to never having a real job up top. That's a lot.

• 1:06:05Joe Rogan?

  You gotta really hate your parents to split your tongue like that.

• 1:06:09Speaker 01

  How about the guys who split their cock? Have you ever seen that?

• 1:06:11Joe Rogan?

  Yes!

• 1:06:12Speaker 01

  Who does that?

• 1:06:14Joe Rogan?

  Do you remember the early days of the internet? Um, I don't know how much you were on the internet in the 90s, but there was a page called The Style Project. Do you remember that?

• 1:06:24Speaker 01

  Don't remember that.

• 1:06:25Joe Rogan?

  It was all like, some of the most fucked up thing, things that this dude could find on the internet. And he had a whole website, and you would, you'd go to The Style Project, and you'd get like, just insane fucked up stories about people. And one of them was Body Modification Extreme. And, uh, I became friends with the guy who ran the site, who's actually, that arm wrestler, Devon Lariet, I think that was his brother? Or someone he's related to? Well, Shannon Lariet, I became friends with him, and he gave me access to his website, and it was like a members-only access, where you could like-

• 1:07:05Speaker 01

  So you got the, the VIP tier of split cocks?

• 1:07:08Joe Rogan?

  Oh my god, it wasn't just split cocks, it was crazy stuff. Like, some people, they decided that they wanted to get their arm chopped off, or their hand chopped off, so they devised a guillotine. It was Body Modification Extreme. So it was all different people, doing different things, like putting, like, horns in their head, and splitting their cock, and, and putting- And one of them was this horrible story about this guy, whose boyfriend turned him into a eunuch, wanted him to cut his dick off for him and be a slave, and like, oh my god! And it's, it's like detailing how this guy cut his cock off. Yeah!

• 1:07:47Speaker 01

  Donnie Fargo, who was a famous wrestler, he was famous for, um, as a party trick, he would put a nail through his cock.

• 1:07:53Joe Rogan?

  Ah! That's not nice.

• 1:07:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:00Joe Rogan?

  I had, uh, David Blaine- And he made me stick an ice pick through his arm. Yeah, he's got this trick that he does. It's not a trick, though. I really stuck an ice pick through his arm. It's like you can call it a trick, but a lot of things David does is just it freaks you out because like you should. But, you know, you can survive an ice pick through your arm. But I had to back it out because I hit a nerve. And he made me reinsert it. And so I reinserted it and then the original one just started bleeding and it got like a little bit of a hematoma, it started swelling up. We had to get the medics. And we had seals working for us. They checked it out.

• 1:08:37Speaker 01

  Because of all this body talk, my wife loves all sorts of weird body talk. And she, she wanted me to send you a message because she's literally about to have a baby like right now.

• 1:08:46Joe Rogan?

  Oh, congratulations.

• 1:08:47Speaker 01

  So we were somewhat concerned coming in because it was possible I may not be able to come because of her about to have this baby. So when we were talking last night, I said, please don't have the baby today. You know, I want to be on Joe's show. And she said, you tell Joe that if I start to have the baby, I expect him to give you some of his net checkpoints. So you can get home. It's a very, very rich person joke.

• 1:09:09Joe Rogan?

  That's hilarious. What does that have to do with body modification? Nothing?

• 1:09:12Speaker 01

  Because she loves talking about this type of shit.

• 1:09:14Joe Rogan?

  Why does she like talking about that stuff?

• 1:09:15Speaker 01

  I don't know. It's like, but in my family, we didn't talk about anything. Sex, you know, was all just kind of implied.

• 1:09:22Joe Rogan?

  Oh, I see.

• 1:09:22Speaker 01

  Just him saying, I grew up in a family where nobody hugged. Nobody kissed. Everyone hated each other and, and nobody talked about the secrets of life. You know, good or bad. It was all kind of in the shadows, you know what I mean? And she grew up in a family where it's like, because she has five brothers and a sister. So they talk about everything, like to the point where just like at dinner, like you're talking about all this like weird body stuff. I don't want to be graphic because it turns me off, you know, but they, they seem to think it's funny.

• 1:09:51Joe Rogan?

  When did you learn to hug people and be like outwardly nice?

• 1:09:56Speaker 01

  It's funny you ask me that. My, I didn't grow up with my mother. My mother went crazy when I was four and I never lived with her again. And we started to become close again when I was in my twenties and I, I remember this one time where I walked through her door. And it was that thing where I wanted to hug her because I never really hugged her my whole life. And I just made this decision at 24, like I was gonna hug my mother and give her a kiss on the cheek.

• 1:10:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:19Speaker 01

  And it was like, that was the opening of this other life where people hug and kiss each other, you know what I mean? I mean, obviously I had full around with girls, but it was only within the context of being romantic. I had no physical affection in my life outside of that. Now my kids are all over me and, you know, I got nine and six year olds, so it's like, I'm used to kids like, you know, rug rats climbing all over you, but I didn't grow up in that at all. Like, I had no, the idea of affection was alien. In fact, when I first started chasing girls at 17, 18, you know, girls wanna hold your hand or hug you, you know, in the car, and I was like, it was so freaky to me.

• 1:10:56Joe Rogan?

  When did you relax?

• 1:10:58Speaker 01

  I'm not sure I ever did.

• 1:11:00Joe Rogan?

  Well, I gave you a hug when I saw you today, it seemed pretty normal.

• 1:11:04Speaker 01

  No, I'm actually a very naturally affectionate person, and it was, it's nice to give you a hug, and it's nice to see you, and it's nice to love on people that you admire and are your friends, and that's the great stuff of life. But I came very late to, like, you could even see I'm just uncomfortable.

• 1:11:18Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:19Speaker 01

  And then, you know, I'm sure you know Howie Mandel, you must. I mean, Howie with his, I made the mistake of hugging Howie once, and I mean, I mean, you know, I killed his cat, you know?

• 1:11:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's like you electrocute him, like you tased him. That poor bastard. It used to be you could touch knuckles with him.

• 1:11:37Speaker 01

  He'll touch knuckles.

• 1:11:38Joe Rogan?

  He will.

• 1:11:38Speaker 01

  I'm close enough.

• 1:11:40Joe Rogan?

  Touching knuckles again.

• 1:11:41Speaker 01

  I'm close enough to Howie to touch knuckles.

• 1:11:42Joe Rogan?

  He stopped touching knuckles, and then he would do elbows. He would touch elbows, and then he got to air elbows. He would just kinda like do that, and then put it down.

• 1:11:52Speaker 01

  I am a lead singer, so I do do some of these things.

• 1:11:55Joe Rogan?

  Meanwhile, he's hanging out with us in the green room at the comedy mothership, and then he's going on stage, and there's a comic before him, has the same microphone, they're spitting into it, he's holding on to it.

• 1:12:07Speaker 01

  See, I'm, I think I'm secretly a germaphobe, but...

• 1:12:11Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 1:12:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:12Joe Rogan?

  Secretly? We just talked about it.

• 1:12:17Joe Rogan?

  You know like Howie though. Howie's like, Howie's-

• 1:12:20Speaker 01

  That's another level.

• 1:12:21Joe Rogan?

  He talks about it though. He knows it's a problem. He just can't overcome it for whatever reason and he manages to sort of like have it and still work his way through life. Like he was fun to hang out with. It's not like he's freaking out about other stuff. Like he was cool hanging out with, just talking.

• 1:12:35Speaker 01

  I had, I had him on my podcast and we did, we did talk about, it hasn't aired yet, but we, we talked about all his, I guess phobias would be the word, or his conditions. I mean, there's all these letters. You know, ADHD, OCD, this and that. But he's very open about it, to his credit.

• 1:12:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. No, he is. Yeah, he talks about it and it's, you know, it's been a battle for him. But it's just like, it's so odd because he's so personable. Like you expect that someone like that would be like a recluse, wouldn't like people, like get away from me everybody. But he's not. He's like super friendly, super friendly.

• 1:13:06Speaker 01

  Except when he puts you in front of a professional comedian who's kind of irritated that you're there and claiming you're his half brother.

• 1:13:11Joe Rogan?

  Oh yeah. That was probably a bad pairing. I feel like both of you are kind of a lot in a good way. I would have one of you on by themselves. I wouldn't want you and Burr together on a show.

• 1:13:22Speaker 01

  He's such an alpha. I mean, he's, he's just one of those guys. He just can't help it.

• 1:13:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Well, he has to make fun of everything too. Many ways. Oh yeah, that's a fucking great idea. What about this?

• 1:13:31Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:13:31Joe Rogan?

  He can't help himself.

• 1:13:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. At one point he looked at me. Actually, I was wearing this coat. He goes, where'd you get that in like a Moroccan bazaar? You know, it's like, it's like, no, this is a very expensive coat.

• 1:13:42Joe Rogan?

  It's like a normal coat. I understand. That seems normal. I looked at North Face or something.

• 1:13:46Speaker 01

  But I, but I'm, I'm asking you this in an empathetic way, but um, because you're a professional comedian, so maybe it's different, but when, when a professional comedian puts their death ray on you and wants to make fun of you, it's a very particular feeling. It's like getting carved up by a chef.

• 1:14:03Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:14:04Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? Cause they, they're so good at,

• 1:14:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:07Speaker 01

  Zorro, you know? It's kind of, it's kind of cool. It's like, wow, I'm being insulted by Bill Burr. You know what I mean? It's like, it's kind of an honor.

• 1:14:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:15Speaker 01

  You know, but at the same time, it's like, it's really fucked up because they're like, they know exactly where to poke you.

• 1:14:19Joe Rogan?

  Also, you can't fire back. You'll get killed.

• 1:14:23Speaker 01

  Right?

• 1:14:23Joe Rogan?

  If you fire back.

• 1:14:24Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying.

• 1:14:25Joe Rogan?

  He's gonna chew you apart.

• 1:14:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. What am I gonna tell him? Like, make a little joke?

• 1:14:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, there's not much you can do other than laugh along with it. Is just have fun with it. Just let, let him make fun of you. Have fun.

• 1:14:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:37Joe Rogan?

  That's all you can do.

• 1:14:38Speaker 01

  But it feels like a death ray.

• 1:14:40Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:41Speaker 01

  It's like, zzzzz.

• 1:14:41Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, especially a guy like Bill. He was like really good at tearing things apart.

• 1:14:44Speaker 01

  Who's like the meanest comedian you ever kind of locked horns on you?

• 1:14:50Joe Rogan?

  The meanest at that kind of stuff, but he's one of my best friends, is Tony Hinchcliffe. He's the best at it. He's the fucking best. I just found out, I just found one the other day from quite a while ago. I'm gonna send you this, cuz this is like, young, fresh-faced Tony Hinchcliffe. It's fucking hilarious. And this is just like off the cuff. They bring in these dudes and he starts roasting them.

• 1:15:15Speaker 01

  Just random dudes?

• 1:15:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's two guys and they're, they're, they team up and they start talking shit to him. And he just eats them alive. Put your headphones on. This one's hilarious.

• 1:15:24Speaker 01

  Alright, here we go.

• 1:15:26Joe Rogan?

  He's the best roaster on planet earth. Nobody's better than Tony Hinchcliffe. That's why Kill Tony's so funny. Part of the reason is he's so fast. Did you get it, Jamie? Yes, one second. I'll find my. Okay.

• 1:15:40Speaker 05

  Wrestler, what the [__] you got on wrestler shoes for?

• 1:15:42Speaker 06

  You guys are mean.

• 1:15:43Speaker 05

  Jimmy Newton's granddaddy right here.

• 1:15:45Speaker 06

  You guys look like a before and after for a product that doesn't work. What does ADD stand for? A dose of diabetes?

• 1:15:51Speaker 05

  Okay. Okay. What was it ready for any of this? Yeah.

• 1:15:53Speaker 06

  You guys are wearing sweatpants and sweat skin. Have you guys just completely given up on [__]? Is that it?

• 1:15:58Speaker 05

  Yeah. I am baby doughboy, not me. I'm out here now.

• 1:16:02Speaker 06

  Doughboy? Wait, what?

• 1:16:03Speaker 05

  His name is Doughboy.

• 1:16:04Speaker 06

  Doughboy?

• 1:16:05Speaker 05

  Yeah. I spell it D-O-B-O-Y.

• 1:16:07Speaker 06

  Yeah, I had a feeling you'd misspell it. You guys are two of my favorites. Two chins and ASAP Rocky Road.

• 1:16:14Joe Rogan?

  Wow. Just off the cuff, out of nowhere. And he does that all day long. So he'll do that in the green room. He just turns on people in the green room. It's fucking amazing. This episode is brought to you by Armra. Every week, there's some new wellness hack that people swear by. And after a while, you start thinking, why do we think we can just outsmart our bodies? That's why Armra colostrum caught my attention. It's something the body already recognizes and has hundreds of these specialized nutrients for gut stuff, immunity, metabolism, et cetera. I first noticed it working around training, especially workout recovery. Most stuff falls off, but I am still taking this. If you want to try, Armra is offering my listeners 30% off.

• 1:16:59Joe Rogan?

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• 1:17:44Joe Rogan?

  Plus, both are NSF certified for sports. So you can feel good about what you're putting into your body, no matter how busy things get. Go to drinkag1.com/joe and for a limited time, get a free immunity bundle, including a bottle of omega-3 fish oil and vitamin D tossed in with your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro, backed by a 90-day money-back guarantee. That's drinkag1.com/joe. We have like, when we do these shows, like Tuesday or Wednesday night or whenever we're there, where everyone's in the room. Tuesday and Wednesday nights are a really good night at the club.

• 1:18:24Joe Rogan?

  Club, because all the comics that are traveling on the road on the weekend, they come into the club to hang out during the weekday. And so they'll be like eight or nine of us in the green room, just talking shit about each other. And Tony's just cutting up left and right, this one, that one. It's, oh, it's so much fun. He's the best at it, though. You do not want to fuck with.

• 1:18:42Speaker 01

  I don't want to make Tony Hinchcliffe. Tony, I'm gonna say right now, I don't think he's my brother.

• 1:18:47Joe Rogan?

  He's definitely not your brother. He don't look anything like you. It's a completely different gene line.

• 1:18:51Speaker 01

  Now he'll make fun of me for saying I'm not his brother.

• 1:18:53Joe Rogan?

  So, did Bill know that you were gonna be there with him, or was it just like how he just decided to put the two of you together?

• 1:18:59Speaker 01

  I got the feeling that, that Bill wasn't really given the heads up.

• 1:19:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, probably.

• 1:19:04Speaker 01

  It was a little bit irritating to him.

• 1:19:07Joe Rogan?

  Bill gets easily irritated. But that's also why he's so funny. Like, he's, he gets mad.

• 1:19:14Joe Rogan?

  Gets mad at everything.

• 1:19:18Joe Rogan?

  You know?

• 1:19:19Speaker 01

  Yes, and my mind doesn't work like that, so it's hard. Like, I, I would have a better time understanding like a, like a rocket scientist than a professional comedian, I think.

• 1:19:27Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 1:19:28Speaker 01

  Because, because the, the professional comedians I've known personally a little bit, like Bobcat Goldthwait and Carrot Top, their minds are so different than the average human mind.

• 1:19:37Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:19:38Speaker 01

  I think the way they process information and they're looking for something that, in almost like a meme, like coalesces this whole set of ideas. That's what makes it funny, right? You can, it works on all these different levels at one time. The great comedians, like Dice to me is the greatest, and, and Dice will tell a joke, it works on like eight different levels. You know, it's like, high, low, middle.

• 1:20:01Joe Rogan?

  Do you know what Dice's best stuff is? You want, like, people don't understand that Dice is literally one of the best live performance artists. Just random street artists.

• 1:20:12Speaker 01

  Oh, I, I watch him. You mean when he just goes up to people?

• 1:20:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and pretends that these people wanted a photo with him, and they don't know who he is.

• 1:20:18Speaker 01

  It's the face. You want the face.

• 1:20:20Joe Rogan?

  You want the picture, and he just goes, he's fucking, and it's so, it's so uncomfortable to watch. You start pulling your fucking clothes off, like, no, don't do this. Like, what are you doing? He's the best at that, and he, he does that for zero money. This is, he's, there's, he's only doing that for fun. That's it. He's just being an artist. Like, there's no money in it at all, and he spends all this time wandering around the streets, going to bars and restaurants and just bothering people, wandering up to people on the street in New York City. They're waiting for the light to turn green. "You want the picture?"

• 1:20:58Speaker 01

  I just love that he'll just double and triple and quadruple down on

• 1:21:02Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:21:02Speaker 01

  On the bit.

• 1:21:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:03Speaker 01

  Like, he just won't give it up.

• 1:21:05Joe Rogan?

  He won't give it up.

• 1:21:05Speaker 01

  Azimut is the same thing with the, with, you know,

• 1:21:08Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:21:08Speaker 01

  Tony Clifton.

• 1:21:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:09Speaker 01

  Just the discomfort

• 1:21:11Joe Rogan?

  Uh huh.

• 1:21:11Speaker 01

  Of it all.

• 1:21:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:13Speaker 01

  Um.

• 1:21:13Joe Rogan?

  Well, Dice is the only guy ever, in the peak of his fame, to try to bomb on purpose and then release it as a two-CD set.

• 1:21:21Speaker 01

  Is that the night comedy died?

• 1:21:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:23Speaker 01

  Unbeliev- that is so, I love that.

• 1:21:26Joe Rogan?

  The day The Laughter died.

• 1:21:27Speaker 01

  The day The Laughter died.

• 1:21:27Joe Rogan?

  Rick Rubin produced it.

• 1:21:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:21:29Joe Rogan?

  And Rick, who's a fucking maniac, loved the idea. He loved it.

• 1:21:33Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:21:33Joe Rogan?

  He's like, "What a great idea. This is gonna be amazing." Dice is selling out Madison Square Garden, like, more than anybody alive. Like, he's just selling out everything. In the height of this, he decides to record on a night where no one knows he's gonna be there, and bomb. No material, just talk off the top of his head, sometimes don't even try to be funny.

• 1:21:53Speaker 01

  I've listened to it multiple times, and it's one of the funniest things I've ever heard.

• 1:21:57Joe Rogan?

  It's performance art. It's like him on the street going,

• 1:22:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:00Joe Rogan?

  "You want the picture?" You know, and if, look, if he couldn't kill regular way, I wouldn't respect it. Because there's people that do comedy that pretend they're doing, like, anti-comedy, because regular comedy's too easy. The problem is, they're not good at regular comedy. If you're, like, hilarious at regular comedy, and then you say, "I'm gonna freak these people out by hitting them with some..." He would do this thing at the Comedy Store, where he would go on stage and see how long he could not talk.

• 1:22:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. I saw him do it once.

• 1:22:30Joe Rogan?

  He'd go, like, five minutes.

• 1:22:31Speaker 01

  Five minutes.

• 1:22:31Joe Rogan?

  Five minutes.

• 1:22:32Speaker 01

  He's doing that.

• 1:22:33Joe Rogan?

  And no one knows what to do, and people are, like, nervously laughing.

• 1:22:36Speaker 01

  Laughing.

• 1:22:37Joe Rogan?

  But he also could fucking kill, like, in the Rodney Dangerfield special. You know, when he did Dice Rules, like, he could destroy an arena filled with people. So, it was a choice to do this weird thing.

• 1:22:49Speaker 01

  Who's your favorite all-time comedian? I'm just curious.

• 1:22:52Joe Rogan?

  God, I don't think I have an all-time favorite. I think Pryor, probably, is the greatest of all time, not living, with Chappelle being the greatest living. I think that you have to, you have to give credit to Lenny Bruce, though. Cause he really started the art form. Because before Lenny Bruce, comedy was just a series of jokes. It was just jokes and Lenny Bruce came along and all of a sudden he had social commentary. Cultural commentary that he turned into humor. Then he, the way he described relationships, the way he described marriage, the way he described. It was like completely different. It's like, what is this guy doing? And then I think Pryor took that and made it funnier.

• 1:23:38Joe Rogan?

  Pryor took that and that honesty.

• 1:23:40Speaker 01

  I never made, I never connected that dot, but it makes sense when you say it.

• 1:23:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, because he was just funnier. Pryor was just better at it. And but it, the door was opened up by Lenny. It didn't exist before Lenny.

• 1:23:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:52Joe Rogan?

  So Lenny comes along in the 50s and he's getting arrested all the time in the 60s. Like he was getting arrested.

• 1:23:58Speaker 01

  Well, remember that whole thing where he would just go on to read his court transcripts?

• 1:24:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, that was the end.

• 1:24:02Speaker 01

  That must have been really out there. I mean.

• 1:24:04Joe Rogan?

  I watched the videos of that. I watched it.

• 1:24:06Speaker 01

  Seen actual, actual.

• 1:24:07Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I bought it. I bought a VHS tape that was Lenny Bruce on stage. I forget what place it was. I think it was somewhere in San Francisco. And he was just talking, he was reading his court transcripts and talking about the case. And someone in the audience is go, we want Dirty Lenny. And he's like, I mean, man, it's not about that, man. It's about, it's about, you gotta understand what they're doing here, man. Like, and he would go into the, go back into the court case, but it wasn't funny at all. It was just him on stage for a long time, just talking about his court cases. But you have to, the, the thing about comedy is a lot of comedy, like even from the 80s. It doesn't hold up. It doesn't mean that it wasn't funny at the time.

• 1:24:49Joe Rogan?

  It just means the concepts and the culture has shifted so much and they've become so commonplace. That it's not shocking or funny anymore, but it was maybe in the 70s or maybe in the 80s. And much more so with Lenny Bruce. Cause you go back and listen to his stuff and people are dying laughing and you don't even find it funny. Like it doesn't even make you chuckle. It's hard to laugh at Lenny Bruce's stuff, but. It's because we can't put ourself in the context of being alive, watching this guy perform in nineteen sixty-two.

• 1:25:20Speaker 01

  He read Fox to me, he's still funny, though.

• 1:25:21Joe Rogan?

  Still funny, but.

• 1:25:23Speaker 01

  Like, his stuff holds.

• 1:25:24Joe Rogan?

  Yes, his stuff holds.

• 1:25:25Speaker 01

  Moms Maybely?

• 1:25:26Joe Rogan?

  Yup, some people, some people still hold up, you know, um, Robin Harris still holds up. There's some, some old school comedians, like, from the seventies and the eighties that are just still, like, just, you could tell they were, Eddie Murphy. He was special. He was like a special talent. Like, his, that still holds up today, but some of the stuff doesn't.

• 1:25:49Joe Rogan?

  And then I think, like, the next big shift, the big change was Kinnison. Kinnison was a giant change.

• 1:25:54Speaker 01

  Did you know Kinnison?

• 1:25:55Joe Rogan?

  No, I saw him live a few times.

• 1:25:57Speaker 01

  I was gonna say, I think, age-wise, it probably doesn't.

• 1:25:59Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, no, I was about twenty-one when I saw him live. I saw him live once when I was nineteen, when I was a security guard at Great Woods, uh, Center for the Performing Arts, uh, in Mansfield, Massachusetts. So, uh, I got to see him live there, and then I got to see him live at some, I think it was like, some weird place in the middle of nowhere, and it was like half-empty. And it was, this was, like, eighty-eight, eighty-nine. So by eighty-nine, he was kind of falling off. Cause he had just done so much drugs and partied so hard that he was fucking huge in, like, eighty-six.

• 1:26:37Joe Rogan?

  And then by the time eighty-eight came around, the material kind of dropped off, and then by the time I saw him, it was like eighty-nine or ninety, it wasn't so good anymore. And then he died in, like, did he die, like, ninety-two? I think he died in ninety-two.

• 1:26:51Speaker 01

  Car crash, right?

• 1:26:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, drunk driver, ironically, cause he had jokes about drunk driving.

• 1:26:57Joe Rogan?

  But he just, I was always hoping he was gonna come out with a new album and it would be, he would be back, you know, he'd be back to the Kinnison of eighty-six, but just the partying, the coke, and the women, and the fucking, no time to write. His brother wrote about it. There's a great book called, uh, Brother Sam.

• 1:27:14Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 1:27:14Joe Rogan?

  By his brother Bill. His Bill wrote, uh, Bill wrote about the childhood, about him getting hit by a car and becoming this maniac. He's like the victim of a head injury.

• 1:27:23Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 1:27:24Joe Rogan?

  And that's what turned him into that fucking maniac.

• 1:27:25Speaker 01

  The childhood preaching is also part of the.

• 1:27:28Joe Rogan?

  Childhood preaching, tent revival preaching, and he brought that kind of energy to comedy, you know? He was a different thing. I remember the first time I saw him, like, oh, wow, that's comedy, too? Like, this is crazy. I remember like thinking like, well, this is a completely different thing. I never thought this was stand-up comedy.

• 1:27:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, he felt, he was like, to me at the time, it was like, he was the rock and roll equivalent of comedy or something.

• 1:27:50Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:27:51Speaker 01

  And didn't Guns N' Roses take him on tour or something? There was some, I seem to remember like-

• 1:27:55Joe Rogan?

  Something like that.

• 1:27:56Speaker 01

  Took him on tour.

• 1:27:57Joe Rogan?

  I think Bon Jovi too, I think he was hanging out with those guys too. He was just, I think Bon Jovi was one of, in one of his, because he had a music video called Wild Thing.

• 1:28:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I remember he was singing.

• 1:28:06Joe Rogan?

  He made a song, yeah. He's kinda trying to be a rock star for a while. But it's a quick fall from grace, man, because in eighty-six, he's one of the best comics that's ever walked the face of the earth. And by eighty-nine, he's like a caricature of the guy he was three years ago.

• 1:28:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:23Joe Rogan?

  And I think it's just, it's really hard to maintain, especially in the eighties, when no one was famous. Like, how many famous comedians were there? There were like five, ten at the most. Now there's hundreds. But back then, like, nobody was famous.

• 1:28:37Speaker 01

  It was all about getting on Carson, that was, that was the thing, right?

• 1:28:40Joe Rogan?

  It was about getting an HBO special.

• 1:28:42Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:28:42Joe Rogan?

  That was the big thing. Carson was big in the eighties, but for a guy like Kinison, even though he got on Letterman and he had one of the most brilliant sets ever on, his Letterman sets, fantastic. We played it on the show once, it's really good. But I think with Kinison, it was really the HBO special. It was Rodney's, Rodney Dangerfield's Young Comedian special first, and people got to see him on that, and then he did his own hour special.

• 1:29:05Speaker 01

  You're right, because when Eddie Murphy did his HBO special, that was when he just like-

• 1:29:09Joe Rogan?

  Yup, delirious.

• 1:29:10Speaker 01

  Remember he had that, that, like, leather suit?

• 1:29:11Joe Rogan?

  Yup.

• 1:29:12Speaker 01

  I remember, high school, everybody was like, it was all-

• 1:29:14Joe Rogan?

  Norton, I've been looking at you. And I know you've been looking at me. Yeah, he was, uh, yeah, I mean, it's like, there was only a few back then, though, you know? And then Dice came along, and Dice had a completely different element to it, because people wanted to repeat the lines. "What's in the bowl, bitch?" "Oh!" The whole crowd would go crazy. It was like, they, it was rock and roll. Like, they sang along. You know? "Shot through the heart!" It was like, it was like rock and roll. Like, everybody was singing along. "You give love a bad name." They, the crowd wanted to say that, and the crowd wanted to say, "Little boy blue." "Oh, he needed the money! Oh!"

• 1:29:56Speaker 01

  I tried to talk my wife into seeing if we could hire Dice to do our wedding.

• 1:30:03Speaker 01

  She wasn't having it.

• 1:30:05Joe Rogan?

  Who knows what he would have done?

• 1:30:07Speaker 01

  My, the vision I had, my wife wanted to do kind of an after-party of the wedding. We had it at my house, so the idea was, you know, when, when half the crowd bangs off because it's been a long day, there's still be a crowd that want to hang out and just party.

• 1:30:20Joe Rogan?

  And then Dice shows up?

• 1:30:20Speaker 01

  And then Dice shows up.

• 1:30:22Joe Rogan?

  At 1 a.m.

• 1:30:23Speaker 01

  And then takes the, goes, puts the death ray on me.

• 1:30:27Speaker 01

  She just was not having it.

• 1:30:29Joe Rogan?

  We used to call, we used to say Dice had two dices, but my favorite dice was mean dice. Cause mean dice would like find a guy in the audience, he knew who could take it, who couldn't, who's smiling and laughing along. He'd be like, "Look at you," and just start tearing this fucking poor fool apart.

• 1:30:46Joe Rogan?

  Fun. And back then, the beautiful thing was, the Comedy Store had no audience. So he could go on unannounced, he would show up at like, you know, midnight on a fucking Monday night or something like that, and just torture people. For fun. Just for fun. He was only fucking around.

• 1:31:03Speaker 01

  I'm having Bill Burr PTSD, because that, that feeling when they put the death ray on you.

• 1:31:08Joe Rogan?

  Did you, it really bothered you?

• 1:31:09Speaker 01

  No, it didn't bother me, it's just, I, I-

• 1:31:11Joe Rogan?

  It's uncomfortable.

• 1:31:12Speaker 01

  Well, I, I'm not, I'm not gonna, what do they always say? Don't, uh, don't bring a knife to a gunfight, right? Like, what am I gonna say? You know what I mean?

• 1:31:20Joe Rogan?

  What was he, why was he picking on you?

• 1:31:23Speaker 01

  I think because he was uncomfortable about the whole setup, because at the end of the day, it's my fault. I'm the one who said something in public.

• 1:31:28Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:31:29Speaker 01

  So at the end of the day, I do bear the responsibility for initiating this insanity.

• 1:31:34Joe Rogan?

  It's taken a life of its own.

• 1:31:36Speaker 01

  Because I, I mean, I walk through public now, and people are like, "Hey, it's Bill Burr's brother." So he's gotta be getting it the other way.

• 1:31:43Joe Rogan?

  That's hilarious.

• 1:31:44Speaker 01

  You're the brother of that, that, that weirdo from The Pumpkins, you know? Like, I got, I, you know, I don't know.

• 1:31:51Joe Rogan?

  We were talking about the other night at the club, in the green room, and we were convinced it was a bit that you guys were doing together. We were convinced. Well, no one disagreed. Ever, no one was like, "Yeah, I think it's real." Most people were like, "Nah, I think they were fucking around. I think they, it seemed like they made an agreement."

• 1:32:06Speaker 01

  It's, it's, it's, it's somewhere between a bit and reality, and I think that's where it gets confusing. That's why I would, I would use the word meta. There's this moment, if you watch it back, where Howie splits and just leaves me and Bill alone. And Howie's, you know, Howie has a band that plays when he does a show. So the gentleman who runs the band starts playing a really sad piano. And Bill just starts riffing. It's just me and him in this room alone. I mean, I don't know Bill at all. And he starts talking about our shared dad. And it gets really weird because on some level, it's like, it's possible, right?

• 1:32:41Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:32:42Speaker 01

  Even if it's 1%, it's not a zero.

• 1:32:44Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:32:44Speaker 01

  So that's where it gets kind of, that's why I say meta. It's like you're looking down a hall of mirrors. And you start almost playing with your mind. You're thinking like, well, it could be possible.

• 1:32:56Joe Rogan?

  It's also, the two of you guys doing this publicly is very pro wrestling, which is what you love. There's something about-

• 1:33:04Speaker 01

  I brought a wrestler with me today who runs the promotions for the NWA.

• 1:33:11Joe Rogan?

  But you know what I'm saying? It's like, there's something about it. It's like, is this kayfabe? You know, is this real? Is this a shoot or is this a work? Like, what is this?

• 1:33:18Speaker 01

  Well, Tommy, you know Tommy Dreamer?

• 1:33:20Joe Rogan?

  I know the name.

• 1:33:21Speaker 01

  Tommy Dreamer, famous ECW wrestler, went on to work for WWE and now works for TNA.

• 1:33:27Speaker 01

  Tommy's the classic salty veteran, you know, seen it all, done it all, you know, been split in half and the whole thing. So there's nothing Tommy hasn't seen. And, you know, Tommy will say something like, "It's all a work. It's all a work." Like, basically, it's the cynical view that everything you see in the world is fake.

• 1:33:48Joe Rogan?

  Well, if you're a pro wrestler-

• 1:33:49Speaker 01

  The president is fake, the news is fake. It's all a work. So, once you go there cynically, it's hard to back out of that.

• 1:33:59Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:00Speaker 01

  So I like the discomfort. The artist in me likes the discomfort.

• 1:34:04Joe Rogan?

  Yes. That's what I'm getting at.

• 1:34:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. I really do like the discomfort. I remember watching Andy Kaufman on Saturday Night Live circa 78 or whatever. And it's that idea that you can create a vibration in the room between what's expected and where you're willing to go.

• 1:34:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:26Speaker 01

  I have this one friend who was a performance artist and she would do stuff like when she was in college, she would just walk in the cafeteria and take off all her clothes. And she would stick a camera in the corner and just film people's reactions. And it was interesting to watch because one guy would just keep eating his food and no sell it. Like, I'm just gonna eat my salad and just pretend this isn't happening. Like, every human being goes in a different direction with the weirdness.

• 1:34:49Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:34:50Speaker 01

  So, as an artist, you know, on a stage, you know, there is this kind of crazy power that you have because depending on what comes out of your mouth next or what you do can affect thousands of people. And then, obviously, through a digital medium, even more. So, there's something about flirting with the uncomfortable, but what makes it uncomfortable is there's always, it always has a foundation of truth. You hear what I'm saying?

• 1:35:18Joe Rogan?

  Yes, I do know what you're saying, yeah.

• 1:35:20Speaker 01

  If it didn't have a foundation of truth, it would just be silly.

• 1:35:22Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:35:23Speaker 01

  The discomfort comes from like, oh, I rec, there's something you're doing that I recognize in myself, or I know somebody that's like this.

• 1:35:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, it makes it much more interesting if it's, there's a 1% chance that it's true. If I just think you guys are running a sketch, it's kind of funny, but if it might be true, then it gets to that weird place.

• 1:35:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:35:42Joe Rogan?

  Where it's like, this is uncomfortable.

• 1:35:43Speaker 01

  Okay, so if I walked out of that room that day after, after meeting Bill for the first time, and it was a 1% chance, if, now that I walk through life, we're up into like the 10 percentile in the public's mind.

• 1:35:52Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:35:53Speaker 01

  10% of the public is convinced we're brothers. Even if I sat there and told them, no, it's not true.

• 1:35:58Joe Rogan?

  More now.

• 1:35:59Speaker 01

  That's, okay, but that's what I'm saying.

• 1:36:00Joe Rogan?

  Now, after the show?

• 1:36:01Speaker 01

  But that's why, that's why it's like, when you-

• 1:36:03Joe Rogan?

  This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Look, it's good to prepare for the future, but when you start overanalyzing what's happening around you, dreaming up every hypothetical situation of what could happen, that's when it gets dangerous. You can start to hyperfixate and stress out and all over things that haven't even happened. That's no good for current you or future you. If you're struggling to stay in the present and out of your head, try talking with a quality therapist from BetterHelp. They have psychologists, family therapists, marriage counselors, social workers, and more.

• 1:36:43Joe Rogan?

  Whatever you need to work through, BetterHelp can match you with a seasoned professional with the specialty that you need. BetterHelp is now a network with more than 125 health plans with many copays as low as $15 for eligible members. And if you don't have eligible insurance or live outside the US, you can still get 20% off your first month. Sign up and get 20% off at betterhelp.com. That's better H E L P dot com. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Look, it's good to prepare for the future, but when you start over analyzing what's happening around you, dreaming up every hypothetical

• 1:37:23Joe Rogan?

  situation of what could happen, that's when it gets dangerous. You can start to hyperfixate and stress out and all over things that haven't even happened. That's no good for current you or future you. If you're struggling to stay in the present and out of your head, try talking with a quality therapist from BetterHelp. They have psychologists, family therapists, marriage counselors, social workers, and more. Whatever you need to work through, BetterHelp can match you with a seasoned professional with the specialty that you need. BetterHelp is now a network with more than 125 health plans with many copays as low

• 1:38:08Joe Rogan?

  as $15 for eligible members. And if you don't have eligible insurance or live outside the US, you can still get 20% off your first month. Sign up and get 20% off at betterhelp.com. That's better H E L P dot com.

• 1:38:24Speaker 01

  When you say it's a bit, yeah, it's a bit to the extent that you're playing with the idea.

• 1:38:29Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:38:29Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean?

• 1:38:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:31Speaker 01

  It would be like if I sat down and say, you know, I'm sure you remember the last time it was on your show, but you know, I met you when I was 12. And I told you this whole story about how I met you. Like Carrot Top in his show tells this whole story about meeting Gallagher when he's a kid. Have you ever heard that?

• 1:38:47Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:38:47Speaker 01

  Gallagher is, is, is Carrot Top's hero.

• 1:38:50Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 1:38:50Speaker 01

  And he even does it like a thing at the end of his show in tribute to Gallagher. He kind of does a watermelon bit or something like that. But he tells this thing in the show about how meeting Gallagher when he was like 14 years old and Gallagher like actually gave him some advice that inspired him to be who he became. So, but I mean, for all I know, it's a bit.

• 1:39:10Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:39:10Speaker 01

  But he says it was such earnestness and it does have some, it feels right, but for all I know, it's just another bit.

• 1:39:17Joe Rogan?

  Everything's at work.

• 1:39:18Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying. So if I came here, oh, Joe, I, you know, I met you when I was 12. You were at an airport. You were so nice. You signed an autograph, you know? There's a part of you that would be like, well, it's like it's possible. I mean, you know what I mean?

• 1:39:30Joe Rogan?

  I got a pretty good memory. I'd be like, what happened?

• 1:39:34Joe Rogan?

  Where were we? I never, I never been there.

• 1:39:39Speaker 01

  Sorry.

• 1:39:41Speaker 01

  I have this plague that I can't get rid of.

• 1:39:42Joe Rogan?

  But if you have that, Tommy's perception that everything's at work,

• 1:39:47Joe Rogan?

  the, the whole world gets really weird.

• 1:39:50Speaker 01

  Well, I think we're there.

• 1:39:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:53Joe Rogan?

  We definitely are when it comes to politics and the news.

• 1:39:56Speaker 01

  I think our whole culture has been turned into like, where are we?

• 1:40:01Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:40:01Speaker 01

  Like, you know, that's why I started calling it like five, seven years ago, post-truth era.

• 1:40:06Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:40:07Speaker 01

  I, I mean, we've all been in that situation where somebody in our inner circle will bring up something that we know from a factually presented basis isn't true.

• 1:40:19Speaker 01

  I heard so-and-so did so-and-so and you go, no, that's not true. Let me show you the YouTube clip. You know what I mean? This didn't happen or no, so-and-so made a left, not a right, but because of what they've heard, they, they believe it. And you can literally show them something and say, no, no, look. And they're like, well, that must be AI or edited. It's like, once, once somebody becomes convinced of this culture, it's really hard to unconvince them.

• 1:40:45Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:40:45Speaker 01

  And so from a performing point of view and somebody who's now also in, in the podcasting sphere, it's like, it's like, is it better to play into, into what people want?

• 1:40:57Speaker 01

  Like I, I really appreciated in Bruce Springsteen's Broadway special, when in the first five minutes, the thing he basically says, I'm not really Bruce Springsteen. Have you ever seen it?

• 1:41:05Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:41:05Speaker 01

  It's really worth watching. He, in the first five, it's when he did his long Broadway run. You know about that? He did this thing where it was like, he would talk and then play songs.

• 1:41:16Joe Rogan?

  No, I didn't even know he did it.

• 1:41:17Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, it was huge. It was, he went on this massive Broadway run. And HBO did it and put it on as a special. But he literally in the first five minutes of talking, and it's about 1,200 people a night, so it's a live audience, and he says in the first five minutes, "By the way, I'm not Bruce Springsteen." Like, I mean, that's my name, but the Bruce Springsteen you think, he's like, "I don't know how to fix a car, I've never been to factory in my life." He's serious.

• 1:41:42Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:43Speaker 01

  Now, I knew that as a performer, I knew that what I was watching wasn't real, but people want him to play John Wayne so bad that he puts his finger in there and says, "Okay, you want me to be John Wayne, I'll be John Wayne."

• 1:41:55Joe Rogan?

  Right. But that's audience capture, right?

• 1:41:59Speaker 01

  Yes, but now we're in the business of it. I mean, there's obviously examples, historical antecedents over the last 100 years in media, where people would figure it out.

• 1:42:09Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:42:10Speaker 01

  Charlie Chaplin or something, you know what I mean? Like, they wanted him to be the tramp, so he became the tramp.

• 1:42:13Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:42:14Speaker 01

  He wasn't that guy at all.

• 1:42:15Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:42:16Speaker 01

  He fed into it and obviously connected to something real in him, but he wasn't really a tramp, he was a complete rich Lothario.

• 1:42:23Joe Rogan?

  Well, you really see it in The Dictator, that movie, The Dictator?

• 1:42:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:27Joe Rogan?

  Where he has that insane speech at the end?

• 1:42:28Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:42:29Joe Rogan?

  Of uniting the world?

• 1:42:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:32Speaker 01

  Well, he was an out-and-out socialist, basically.

• 1:42:33Joe Rogan?

  And a brilliant guy.

• 1:42:34Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:42:35Joe Rogan?

  Which is really crazy when you think about how silly his character was. His character was this like bumbling, stumbling goof.

• 1:42:42Speaker 01

  So that's what I'm saying, what is more valuable? What the public wants from you or what is true? In the entertainment world, we're used to it, right?

• 1:42:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:51Speaker 01

  Like, you could play Joe Rogan, the comedian, at the drop of a hat, because you've done it. And Joe Rogan, the UFC announcer, you know, just, I'm not saying it's not who you are, but it's an extenuation. We say in wrestling, you turn the volume up to 11.

• 1:43:04Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:43:05Speaker 01

  It's still Joe Rogan. I don't see him as being disingenuous. I can't even think of one time I've ever seen you in any media where I thought that he's not playing, he's not Joe Rogan. You know what I'm saying?

• 1:43:14Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:43:15Speaker 01

  I've done it, I've played other people, so. But what I'm trying to say is, now we're in this thing where like, everybody's doing it. I mean, everybody. We've all looked at some girl on the internet and said, "That's not how she really looks." And you gotta go through the Instagram and like you find the real picture.

• 1:43:31Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:43:32Speaker 01

  Like, everybody's kind of become comfortable with like a filter over everything. So that's what I mean. We're in a post-truth world where the impression is becoming more valuable than the reality. That's really, I think, unprecedented.

• 1:43:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I think so too, but I also think that authenticity is more valuable now than ever before because it's hard to find.

• 1:43:50Speaker 01

  Well, that would be my argument for why my band has risen back up. Because we're one of the only bands left that sort of represents some ideal that's long abandoned.

• 1:44:00Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right. You're not a corporate creation.

• 1:44:04Speaker 01

  No, we never were.

• 1:44:05Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:44:05Speaker 01

  And we were-

• 1:44:06Joe Rogan?

  And there's so many of them now, you feel like, you know, like, you ever seen, uh, Kinnison's bit about the Monkees?

• 1:44:13Speaker 01

  The band The Monkees?

• 1:44:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:15Speaker 01

  I don't, give me the-

• 1:44:16Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's a bit about Manson. It was, uh, and then, you know, he does this bit about the Monkees, about they weren't a real fucking band. Like, 'cause, you know, they were pieced together by a corporation. The Monkees like one of, which were great. The Monkees are great. I'm a believer. They have some great songs. But they were kind of one of the first corporate creations.

• 1:44:35Speaker 01

  But I actually, on my podcast recently, interviewed, um, Mickey Dolenz.

• 1:44:40Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:44:41Speaker 01

  And we talk a lot about this very subject. It hasn't aired yet, but, but, um, he was less interested in the discussion than I was because my argument would be is that the Monkees are actually the template that came. Our whole lives, the Monkees were dismissed as an anachronistic thing that went against the integrity of the Beatles.

• 1:44:58Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:44:58Speaker 01

  But if you actually look now, Beatles versus Monkees, the Monkees are more accurate of what came than the Beatles.

• 1:45:04Joe Rogan?

  In what way?

• 1:45:05Speaker 01

  Because authenticity is less and less and less important. Those who establish authenticity, and I would include myself amongst that, and I would include you in that, they're very valuable. But you also know, because of your, your public things that have gone on, you've had to stand there and take a lot of shit because- Just even speaking your own truth is inconvenient in a post-truth world.

• 1:45:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:26Speaker 01

  Right? So, so it's actually more politically expedient to, to create a character that can navigate this new world. And by the way, change on a dime.

• 1:45:35Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:45:36Speaker 01

  Does it make sense the way I'm?

• 1:45:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, no, it does make sense.

• 1:45:38Speaker 01

  So, so my argument would be from a rock and roll historical point of view is that the Monkees are actually more relevant now in a particular way. The Beatles are this preeminent band. That's not the argument I'm making. I'm saying is the model of the Monkees, which was always held up as for, for a form of mockery.

• 1:45:53Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:45:53Speaker 01

  See, this is what you get when you make plastic music. No, no, we live in the age of plastic music now.

• 1:45:58Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:45:58Speaker 01

  The Monkees are the, are the four, are the grandfathers of this thing.

• 1:46:02Joe Rogan?

  Right. It wouldn't even be shocking today if the corporation put together a band. No one would dismiss the band because a bunch of people, they cast it together with a bunch of good musicians and created a band.

• 1:46:13Speaker 01

  No, I mean, I, I.

• 1:46:14Joe Rogan?

  We used to want Aerosmith. We used to want Steven Tyler and Joe Perry Young coming up together, playing music. That's what we used to want. We used to want the Beatles. They all got together, they formed a band, they played in Hamburg until they tightened it up.

• 1:46:28Speaker 01

  I used to work with the musician and I was, I was in therapy at the time and I was having a lot of problems with the musician. And the musician was from a wealthy family, but he always, he didn't bathe and he wore junky clothes. He wanted people to believe he was somebody that he wasn't.

• 1:46:42Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:46:42Speaker 01

  You know, I was actually from a poorish family. He was from a rich family pretending to be poor.

• 1:46:47Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:48Speaker 01

  And my therapist had the great line about him. He said, "He looks like a junkie, smells like a junkie, but he doesn't have the guts to be a junkie."

• 1:46:57Speaker 01

  So if you can, if in this culture, you can pick up anything you want and adapt it without the downside of actually becoming it.

• 1:47:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:05Speaker 01

  Well, you can see why so many people without courage or chops, it puts them in a game. It puts them in this social milieu that, that we all sort of have to navigate. So now we're into this place where we're, we're talking to a lot of people who believe that they're, they're, they're furry number four, six, three, because that's all, that's all their status comes from their digital online group.

• 1:47:27Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:28Speaker 01

  You know, I'm 57, I got two kids, another one on the way, I work with animal charities, and I have a tea house and a wrestling company, and I'm still fighting at 57 with people who want me to be this guy that they believe I am from 30 years ago.

• 1:47:42Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:47:43Speaker 01

  And no amount of empirical evidence will change their minds.

• 1:47:45Joe Rogan?

  Right, they're upset with you because you're connected to something that's different than what they want you to be connected to. Like, they don't care what you really are. They don't want you to like pro wrestling.

• 1:47:56Speaker 01

  Sam Kinison's second act should have been, get sober, get straight, and go on another hellacious run.

• 1:48:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I suspect Sam was very mentally ill. I never met him, but I think one of the reasons why he was self-medicating so hard was probably that head injury that he got when he was a young kid. Probably really fucked him up, because I know quite a few people with some pretty significant head injuries, and they're wild and impulsive and aggressive, and they do crazy things. Like, some of them, like, they just go off on benders, they disappear for days. Like, I think it's common with people with severe CTE.

• 1:48:32Speaker 01

  Because I'm on the board, I'm on honorary on the board of the Concussion Legacy Foundation, which I'm sure, you know, has some tie to UFC too, because, you know, Chris Nowinski, who runs it, is my friend. One of the main things that happens with people who start to get CTE early in life is lack of impulse control.

• 1:48:50Joe Rogan?

  Hmm, yeah.

• 1:48:52Speaker 01

  So suddenly you have a 40-year-old retired professional athlete who's faster and stronger than 99% of the population who can't control his temper.

• 1:48:59Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:49:00Speaker 01

  That's what makes that situation so frightening for the families, because they lose the ability to kind of keep it all reined in.

• 1:49:08Joe Rogan?

  Right, right. That happens a lot with fighters, football players, I'm sure it happens with pro wrestlers, probably happens with a lot of...

• 1:49:14Speaker 01

  It's getting better, I think, with wrestling. The awareness is helping. In our, in our organization, we forbid headshots.

• 1:49:21Joe Rogan?

  That's good.

• 1:49:22Speaker 01

  You know, the classic chair to the head. There's none of that in my world.

• 1:49:25Joe Rogan?

  Good. You don't need it.

• 1:49:26Speaker 01

  Well, for what?

• 1:49:27Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, the pain of watching people deteriorate is so awful. The, the pain in their eyes where they just can't navigate life anymore and they're, every day they have a fucking headache and they're just in hell. And they just want to kill themselves. They just can't take it anymore. And it gets to a certain point where it sort of accumulates over time where it doesn't get better, it gets worse.

• 1:49:46Speaker 01

  Well, I think also, and I'm not speaking from experiences, but I've heard the stories. You take people who are held up as, as, as almost like masculine ideals.

• 1:49:54Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:49:55Speaker 01

  That fall isn't just the fall physically, it's the fall of like, I'm not the person, I'm not the hero that you've made me out to be anymore. I'm, I'm broken.

• 1:50:03Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:50:04Speaker 01

  And I, I, there's nothing I can do to put the pieces back together.

• 1:50:06Joe Rogan?

  That's a very hard journey for championship fighters. When they are the fucking man, they're on top of the world and then they have to just integrate society and be one of us. When they used to be the dom- and then they go to the fights, they sit there with a paunch and a, you know, a little bit of a belly. Sit there and watch people doing what they used to do.

• 1:50:26Joe Rogan?

  And they, they don't know how to make a living outside of fighting. They don't know what to do. It's very few of them figure out how to transition into some other stage of life. The thing about athletics is by the time you're 40, you're essentially done. Unless you're a rare Tom Brady type character, Randy Couture, who can compete into their 40s.

• 1:50:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:44Joe Rogan?

  Bernard Hopkins, great example. But at a certain point in time, it's over and you have to know when it's over and then what? You put all your eggs in this one basket. Where to be a championship fighter like a Lennox Lewis or a Van der Holyfield, you have to be all in. You can't have like a side gig in a blues band. There's no room for you writing books.

• 1:51:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:05Joe Rogan?

  There's no room for you, uh, you know, fucking selling things on Etsy like.

• 1:51:09Speaker 01

  Well, that's, it's, it's, I know this is a leap of, of discussion, but that's one of the discussions that's going on internally in my band is. I'm 57 and one guy's 56 and one guy's, I think, 61. You know, it's like, at what point do you start to dial the thing down? My brain is wired, I'm gonna go until I run into a brick wall.

• 1:51:26Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:51:27Speaker 01

  And they're more like, well, things are pretty good. You know what I mean? Like, do we have to keep throwing ourselves into the maw of the public? You know, and my argument is like, it'd be like going into a UFC fight and not fighting to win.

• 1:51:41Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:51:42Speaker 01

  Fighting not to lose.

• 1:51:43Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:51:43Speaker 01

  That seems to me far more dangerous. And that's kind of my argument is, is like, in order to be in the arts, you've got to, it's a palme, all, all, all in.

• 1:51:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:52Speaker 01

  All in or all out. That's the only gear I know.

• 1:51:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. There's a thing that happens to bands when they get to a point where they never make any new music. Right? And they just tour on the old music.

• 1:52:02Speaker 01

  You're, you're, you're touching on, on the nerve of my life.

• 1:52:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. How do you navigate that?

• 1:52:08Speaker 01

  I just keep working. I refuse. That's it.

• 1:52:15Speaker 01

  In my case, back to my daddy for a second, I watched my dad play songs he didn't want to play. I watched him doing drug deals rather than make money from music. I watched him give up on his talent, his dream, all of it. I watched it destroy my father. And then, if you want to even go further in a kind of a mythical way, my success destroyed him again.

• 1:52:39Speaker 01

  So, if you've watched that, well, I, then, I was lucky enough to have kids late, late in life. My first kid came when I was 48 and we're about to have one again in 57. Once my kid came, I was like, this kid is not going to look at me how I looked at my father. Like, shoulda, woulda, coulda.

• 1:52:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:58Speaker 01

  So I had to get myself up off the couch and like, get serious again. And again, that's that mentality, that killer mentality. Like, I can still go, I'm gonna go. So until somebody stops me, I'm gonna go.

• 1:53:09Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's what got you to the dance, right?

• 1:53:12Speaker 01

  Well, even doing the podcast, this is, you know, it's, you know, it's, it looks easy to just sit and talk, but it requires prep and, and mental focus. And it's, it's a lot harder than I would have thought, you know? And, you know, I got money, I mean, I could sit home. I, I like being in the game. I like the hustle. I like having to learn things. I like having to...

• 1:53:32Joe Rogan?

  What do you enjoy about podcasting and why'd you decide to get into it?

• 1:53:35Speaker 01

  A quick story was I did a podcast based on an album that we put out that was 33 songs. And I did it for iHeartRadio and they were fine and everything, but when it all finished, I started to kind of enjoy it a bit and I poked around as you do to see if anybody was interested. And it was like crickets. Nobody gave a shit about me being a podcaster, like at all. And if any kind of response came back and be like, well, if you want to tell stories about the 90s and get other 90s artists on to talk about the 90s, we'd be cool with that. But other than that, we have no use for you. So I just thought, okay, not for me, not meant to be. And then I did Club Random with Bill Maher. And as soon as I was done with the episode and shaking everybody's hands, they said, "Bill's starting a podcast network. Would you be interested in doing this?"

• 1:54:18Speaker 01

  And I said, "Only if I could do whatever I want to do." And they said, "Tell us what it is." And I pitched them the idea that is the show called Magnificent Others now. I said, "I want to talk to whoever I want to talk to about whatever I want to talk about. But here's the reason, and the reason to the heart of your question is, I feel there's a lot of people in this culture that don't get celebrated in the way that I would celebrate them because we've become so skewed with influencers and people who are famous that don't do shit.

• 1:54:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:45Speaker 01

  And I think there's a lot of value in American culture that can be celebrated. So you're talking about like, say, a retired fighter or something. There's a lot we can learn from a retired fighter.

• 1:54:55Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:56Speaker 01

  You know, you have a Shogun armor out here, you know what I mean? To me, a retired fighter is like, you think I don't want to sit down with a retired Shogun?

• 1:55:03Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:55:03Speaker 01

  And ask them about what it's like to be in there alone?

• 1:55:07Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:55:09Speaker 01

  Recently interviewed Steve Vai, a great guitar player. And for some reason, I had this idea of, you know, like the classic Sergio Leone, two guys at the end of the street with the gun.

• 1:55:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:21Speaker 01

  So I said to Steve Vai, "Who do you fear at the end of, like, who's the faster gun?" You know, I mean, that's his.

• 1:55:28Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:55:28Speaker 01

  Not, I'm projecting, but I'm saying, we all have that moment, like, who do we not want to be in the octagon with?

• 1:55:34Joe Rogan?

  Is it Eddie Van Halen? Who was it?

• 1:55:35Speaker 01

  For me?

• 1:55:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:37Speaker 01

  Or for him?

• 1:55:38Joe Rogan?

  For Steve Vai.

• 1:55:38Speaker 01

  He didn't, he didn't want to say.

• 1:55:39Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 1:55:40Speaker 01

  Well, I, I think he's a top guy, so.

• 1:55:42Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:55:43Speaker 01

  Why would you want to create heat where there's no need to create heat? I mean, he's, he's at an elite level.

• 1:55:48Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:55:48Speaker 01

  I'll tell you what, I wouldn't want to be at the end of the street with him, Steve Vai at the other end of the street.

• 1:55:52Joe Rogan?

  Nah.

• 1:55:52Speaker 01

  Or Yngwie.

• 1:55:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, right, right, right.

• 1:55:54Speaker 01

  Those guys are like, insane.

• 1:55:55Joe Rogan?

  Shredders.

• 1:55:56Speaker 01

  I mean, yeah.

• 1:55:57Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:57Speaker 01

  I mean, I'm an amateur, you know, compared to those guys, so I wouldn't want the woo woo woo woo.

• 1:56:01Joe Rogan?

  There's something about that kind of shredding, too, that's just like, so stunning.

• 1:56:06Speaker 01

  Freakish.

• 1:56:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:08Speaker 01

  I mean, you, do you still train MMA, or?

• 1:56:11Joe Rogan?

  I still do martial arts, yeah.

• 1:56:12Speaker 01

  Okay, so.

• 1:56:13Joe Rogan?

  I don't spar, though, I don't get hit in the head anymore.

• 1:56:16Speaker 01

  But, but there's got to be those times where you see a fighter that just, they just get it.

• 1:56:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:20Speaker 01

  And it looks easy for them, and you're like, how is that?

• 1:56:23Joe Rogan?

  Autism.

• 1:56:23Speaker 01

  Okay, God bless, but I'm saying, that's the way it is for me with other musicians sometimes.

• 1:56:27Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:56:28Speaker 01

  I'll look at a guy like Steve Vai or Eddie Van Halen, Ring Van, like, how do you do that?

• 1:56:32Joe Rogan?

  Right, like what it must have been like when Hendrix burst onto the scene.

• 1:56:35Speaker 01

  My dad had a story, actually.

• 1:56:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:37Speaker 01

  He's, uh, he was playing a club in Wisconsin, he never heard of Jimi Hendrix, and Jimi Hendrix was playing the night before they were playing the same club. So one of his boys said, why don't we go up, watch this new guy, Jimi Hendrix, we'll hang out, we'll play at the gig the next night, we'll drive back to Chicago. So imagine, my dad's in a club in Wisconsin, with like a thousand people in 1966 or 67, and out walks Jimi Hendrix.

• 1:57:01Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 1:57:01Speaker 01

  My dad said, he'd never even heard his music, so it split his mind, and he said it was so shocking, the way he played and how masterful he was at it. He said when he got on stage the next night, he felt like he couldn't play the guitar at all.

• 1:57:14Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:57:15Speaker 01

  It was like, it was like an alien instrument, that's, and Clapton talks about it, other.

• 1:57:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:20Speaker 01

  Like, uh, Jimi Hendrix blew Clapton's mind, and.

• 1:57:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:24Speaker 01

  Whatever, Roy Albert Hall, whatever it was, where he was like, oh my God, what the hell is happening?

• 1:57:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:28Speaker 01

  I think it was Bag of Nails or something it was called.

• 1:57:30Joe Rogan?

  He was like, what am I doing?

• 1:57:32Speaker 01

  And this is when people were spray painting on the walls in London, Clapton is God. And here comes, here shows up this guy who was on the chitlin circuit is what they used to call playing for Little Richard and the Isley Brothers. He was just in the backup band.

• 1:57:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:45Speaker 01

  And he shows up in England. Chas Chandler, the bassist from The Animals goes, this guy could be a star. Gets him a record deal. He shows up in England and next thing you know, he's like, Hey Joe is the number one hit and he's on TV. And it's like, I mean, imagine that.

• 1:57:58Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:58:00Speaker 01

  So, yeah, there are those people that's like, it's so shocking. Van Halen was the same way. I got to interview him once and sit in his studio for four hours. He would just play the guitar and you'd just be like, I don't understand how this is possible. You're doing inhuman things and I know, I know how to do what you do.

• 1:58:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:13Speaker 01

  And I can't even come close to doing what you're doing. Shocking.

• 1:58:18Joe Rogan?

  It's always interesting too, that people have a specific sound. Like you can hear them and you know who's playing the guitar. Like Stevie Ray Vaughan had a sound. Like you could hear him, like when he was doing Voodoo Child, you're like, oh, that's a Stevie version. Like he played music.

• 1:58:34Speaker 01

  Do you play guitar at all?

• 1:58:35Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:58:36Speaker 01

  So the one thing I'll tell you guitar player to non guitar players, the thing you learned about the great guitar players, it's, it's, it's, it's all in their hands. Everybody focuses on what amp, what guitar, the gear. It's, it's somehow, it's the way they hit the strings. I couldn't even explain it to you.

• 1:58:54Joe Rogan?

  They just have a different feel?

• 1:58:55Speaker 01

  We call it attack. I have no idea. Stevie Ray Vaughan, for example, he played his strings purposely high. He made it harder to play the guitar.

• 1:59:04Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 1:59:04Speaker 01

  And still played at that level.

• 1:59:05Joe Rogan?

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• 1:59:49Joe Rogan?

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• 2:00:22Speaker 01

  Now, there's a belief with certain guitar players that the higher you put the strings, the more you have to dig out the notes, and that so it becomes more emotive. So imagine he's doing it at that level, even har- he's making it harder to do what he's doing, and he's doing it at that level.

• 2:00:35Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:00:35Speaker 01

  Unbelievable. Incredible talent. I mean, shocking. Again, shocking. It's like, where does that come from? Just has it.

• 2:00:44Joe Rogan?

  We have a photo of him in the tunnel leading up to the stage in my comedy club, of him onstage at that club in 1980.

• 2:00:54Speaker 01

  Oh, at the same place?

• 2:00:55Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. I think it's 88 or 86? Somewhere in the 80s. He's on the- maybe it's 83. But it's early in the- sometime in the 80s. And it's like Steve Ray Vaughan onstage at that club. And it's wild. It's just wild to think that he was in this room. You know, it's Austin, where he's from.

• 2:01:14Speaker 01

  And think about this, because he talked about it. There was a point in his life where he was dropping rocks of Coke. I think he had whiskey and drinking it.

• 2:01:20Joe Rogan?

  Geez.

• 2:01:20Speaker 01

  And rotting his stomach out. And he got sober, like, in the last year or so of his life, and he played even better.

• 2:01:26Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:01:27Speaker 01

  If you listen to the recordings that he made, live particularly in the last year or so of his life, he's playing even better. So that's what I say about Sam Kinison. Imagine if he-

• 2:01:35Joe Rogan?

  He cleaned up.

• 2:01:36Speaker 01

  Was able to make that left and-

• 2:01:38Joe Rogan?

  I- like I said, though, I think Sam was dealing with something. I think his demons were internal. Like, the Steve Ray Vaughan thing, um-

• 2:01:49Joe Rogan?

  What's fascinating to me is, well, first of all, he's the only guy that can play Voodoo Child other than Hendrix. Like, if you're like some upstart and you want to release Voodoo Child today, like, Jesus Christ, like, what are you doing? You're treading, you're treading on hollowed ground. You know, like, maybe you can do All Along the Watchtower, because that was actually a Dylan song, right? Maybe.

• 2:02:13Speaker 01

  But you know why, you know, this is my opinion, but you know why he, he plays Voodoo Child so well?

• 2:02:17Joe Rogan?

  Why?

• 2:02:18Speaker 01

  Because he had studied the same guys that Hendrix had studied. So he's not imitating Hendrix. He's coming from the same wellspring of information.

• 2:02:26Joe Rogan?

  Like, who were the guys?

• 2:02:27Speaker 01

  Albert King.

• 2:02:28Joe Rogan?

  Ah.

• 2:02:29Speaker 01

  B.B. King, Albert King, you know, it's, it's muddy waters. It's understanding the way those guys played. So, he's not imitating Jimi Hendrix, he's playing from the same spot.

• 2:02:41Joe Rogan?

  Have you ever heard of Johnny Thunder?

• 2:02:42Speaker 01

  You mean talking about from the New York Dolls?

• 2:02:46Joe Rogan?

  No. Johnny Thunder was an artist in the 1960s, and he put out a song called "I'm Alive", and I think it was 1969, and it was also covered by another band, but his version is fucking insane. It's so good, you can't believe he didn't make it. Can I play it for you?

• 2:03:07Speaker 01

  Please, yeah.

• 2:03:08Joe Rogan?

  Right, that's right, his version's the cover. What was the other version of it?

• 2:03:11Speaker 04

  It's Tommy James and the Shondells.

• 2:03:13Joe Rogan?

  Tommy James and the Shondells. Their version, eh, but Johnny Thunder? Put the headphones on.

• 2:03:21Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:03:22Speaker 04

  It's another new commercial I've heard recently.

• 2:03:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, we started talking about it, like, a year or so ago. My friend Brian Simpson played it for me, and he goes, "You're gonna fucking love this", and he goes, "This is a one-hit wonder from 1969."

• 2:03:36Speaker 01

  Never heard of him. I'm usually know all this stuff.

• 2:03:42Joe Rogan?

  Fucking fantastic, right?

• 2:03:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. I don't even know where he's from, I can't even identify where he's from by the...

• 2:03:47Joe Rogan?

  The fucking song is fantastic. It's so good. It just, it stuns you, because you hear something like that and you go, "How did he not make it? What hope is there?" Imagine if you were around in 1969, you see that guy up at the Whiskey-a-Gogo, he gets on stage and plays that song, you're like, "Holy shit."

• 2:04:06Speaker 01

  But, but to be fair, I, I saw those people in the 80s, and I saw those people in the 90s, and I, I couldn't imagine that they weren't gonna make it, and they didn't.

• 2:04:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, isn't that weird?

• 2:04:16Speaker 01

  And that was part of the vibe that my father put on me, which was like, well, how the hell did you get out?

• 2:04:21Joe Rogan?

  Right, of course. Well, the fucking resentment must have been astounding. You know, when you're, you know, trying and kind of half-assing it and your son comes along and all of a sudden he's doing arenas. You're like, what the fuck?

• 2:04:34Speaker 04

  This interview from Rolling Stone by Bob Dylan literally almost has what you guys just quoted, like, never heard of it? I can't believe it.

• 2:04:42Joe Rogan?

  Right, we talked about this, yeah. Bob, what year was this?

• 2:04:45Speaker 04

  1969.

• 2:04:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, isn't that crazy? That's right, we talked about this. Bob Dylan.

• 2:04:52Speaker 04

  So he discovered it and was asking Jan Wenner if he'd heard of it.

• 2:04:55Joe Rogan?

  That's so crazy that even Bob Dylan couldn't make it huge.

• 2:04:59Speaker 01

  So 1968, okay.

• 2:05:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, Bob Dylan heard it on the radio.

• 2:05:02Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:05:05Speaker 04

  Disappeared.

• 2:05:07Joe Rogan?

  That's fucking incredible, man. Incredible. Because you feel like a guy who make a song that's that good, oh my god, all you need is good songwriters and that guy's gonna be huge. There's a fucking billion dollars in there waiting for you. Dig it out.

• 2:05:21Speaker 01

  But that's, that's kind of what I was saying before is like, it's, it's, it's a curious thing why certain people make it and certain people don't. My father, before he passed away, he told me, you had the one thing that I didn't have, which was the ambition. Like, he wanted it. He said, I didn't really want it. I just wanted it to come, come to me.

• 2:05:40Joe Rogan?

  Hmm. Well, also, I think if you're involved in a life of crime like that, a lot of cocaine and first of all, there's a lot of bad karma that you have. But also, it's like, you're, you're too distracted. Like, you're too in that life. You're never gonna really be able to go all in on music as an artist. So you're never gonna really be able to reach your full potential, right?

• 2:06:02Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, that's, that's kind of, that's what he was saying. He was admitting to me that he had, he had made some sort of internal decision that, that he didn't want to do whatever he had to do to do it. He, he made certain excuses involving the mob. He did say that, back then, and it is a known thing in Chicago, that in order to be successful in Chicago, you had to basically sign contracts with the mob.

• 2:06:21Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:06:23Speaker 01

  You know, there's always been rumors about the band Chicago, that there were mob ties with their, with their world.

• 2:06:29Joe Rogan?

  I'm sure there was a lot of that going on. Wasn't that the whole Hendrix thing? You ever know that conspiracy?

• 2:06:35Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, I've read about that. That's, that gets into other types of complications. And I'm not, I don't have a... An opinion on it. It's just, it's like saying, there's no way to separate the two things at the time.

• 2:06:49Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:06:49Speaker 01

  Like, anybody back then, you know, any clubs at the time, particularly in Chicago, they were all mob.

• 2:06:54Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:06:55Speaker 01

  Connected.

• 2:06:56Joe Rogan?

  And Los Angeles as well.

• 2:06:58Speaker 01

  Sure. So if you were a comedian, or, you know what I mean, an MC, or whatever you were doing, like, here's Lola the dancer, you know?

• 2:07:05Joe Rogan?

  You were connected.

• 2:07:05Speaker 01

  There was a white guy standing there, and everybody knew who they were, because that's how they did their business. Because if you didn't like what Johnny Rocco was doing, you were gonna get in trouble, and you didn't want to get in trouble.

• 2:07:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:16Speaker 01

  And I went to school with a bunch of the mob wise guys' kids and grandkids.

• 2:07:21Joe Rogan?

  I worked at a mob club in Connecticut. I worked, I did stand up, and another one in Long Island. There was where the guys were connected by the mob. And in Boston as well. In Boston, Nick's Comedy Stop, they would offer to pay you in cocaine or money.

• 2:07:35Speaker 01

  We played a club on Long Island once where the crowd was moshing, and in the middle of the fourth song, guy on the side of the stage that worked for me was waving, like, stop playing in the middle of the song. And I said, fuck it, stop playing, got a thousand people out in front of me. And, and he kind of did one of these, and there were two, two wise guys with, standing there with suits on, kind of like, you're gonna get in trouble with these guys if you don't stop. And I said, I don't give a fuck, and I kept going. So they waited one more song, and then they came out between songs onstage with their backs to the audience, and they pulled their coats open and showed me a gun, said, you better calm the fuck down.

• 2:08:11Joe Rogan?

  Whoa. Because of the moshing?

• 2:08:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. Because it was one of, we used to call them brass and fern bars, you know, like the brass bar and the ferns.

• 2:08:21Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right.

• 2:08:22Speaker 01

  You know that bar, right?

• 2:08:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:08:24Speaker 01

  You've all been there. And we were playing one of those places for some reason, and the crowd was going ape shit, they were bouncing off the walls. So they were blaming us for the reaction of the crowd. So they wanted us to bring the crowd down, but how do you bring the crowd down? So they, they literally showed me a gun and said, you better calm the fuck down.

• 2:08:40Joe Rogan?

  So what did you do?

• 2:08:42Speaker 01

  I just kept going. They were gonna kill me onstage.

• 2:08:45Joe Rogan?

  Jesus Christ, what happened when you got offstage?

• 2:08:47Speaker 01

  They weren't gone.

• 2:08:48Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 2:08:50Speaker 01

  I, I, I mean, I may, there might have been a problem if somebody had done some real damage or something, but I, there was no problem. But they, they definitely threatened me onstage.

• 2:08:57Joe Rogan?

  How do they not know about moshes?

• 2:08:59Speaker 01

  This is me at like 180 pounds and like, long hair and, you know, bad attitude.

• 2:09:04Joe Rogan?

  That's hilarious.

• 2:09:05Speaker 01

  Now, I don't think they'd ever seen anything like moshing. You know, this is like 92. This is a very, very new phenomenon to the, to the outside world.

• 2:09:12Joe Rogan?

  But moshing was going on before that, right?

• 2:09:14Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, but it's only in the underground clubs, is what I'm saying. It's like, that's what I'm saying. You're in a, you're in a wise guy's club on Long Island with brass rails and ferns and...

• 2:09:22Joe Rogan?

  I dated a girl in the 80s who went to see the Cramps and came home with a concussion.

• 2:09:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:09:31Joe Rogan?

  From the mosh bit?

• 2:09:33Speaker 01

  I remember Poison Ivy. She was the guitar player for the Cramps.

• 2:09:35Joe Rogan?

  Oh, right.

• 2:09:36Speaker 01

  So great.

• 2:09:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Bad music for bad people.

• 2:09:41Speaker 01

  Did you, did you ever kind of encounter the alternative scene when you were a kid?

• 2:09:43Joe Rogan?

  Not really, no.

• 2:09:46Speaker 01

  Not, not for you, the freaks?

• 2:09:48Joe Rogan?

  Um, I didn't go to very many, I mean, I went to a few concerts when I was a kid, but not, like, I went to Jay Giles Band. I saw George Thurlgood.

• 2:09:58Speaker 01

  Not exactly alternative there.

• 2:10:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, no, I didn't, I never really saw a lot. And then, once I started really getting into comedy, I didn't really go to see anybody perform. I was mostly just performing myself, so I never got to see anybody.

• 2:10:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:10:11Joe Rogan?

  And I didn't really become friends with band people until I moved to Hollywood and, you know, then, like, in the late 90s and 2000s, I met a bunch of band people. And it was always weird, you know, hanging out with them was always odd. It's like, oh, that's that guy from that band.

• 2:10:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a lot of, a lot of, um, like, what do you call it? When the brain, when the brains don't, uh, connect, the brain hemispheres, bipolar. A lot of bipolarity in, in, in music musicians. Oh, yeah.

• 2:10:42Joe Rogan?

  Particularly high levels?

• 2:10:43Speaker 01

  I, my theory is, is the reason they become musicians is they overdevelop one side of their brain.

• 2:10:49Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 2:10:50Speaker 01

  You know, this, I, you know, you probably get on somebody who knows what they're talking about, but the idea is that if people's, their brain hemisphere, and that's why a lot of musicians do coke, is it helps the polarities work. It helps the brain communicate left to right.

• 2:11:04Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 2:11:05Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. It's a known thing that coke really helps that, if you have that bipolarity.

• 2:11:10Joe Rogan?

  Huh. Do people, is that a medication for people that are bipolar? Do they give them Adderall or anything like that?

• 2:11:16Speaker 01

  I don't know. I mean,

• 2:11:19Speaker 01

  I've worked with people who are bipolar and they've talked about their medications and stuff, you know?

• 2:11:23Joe Rogan?

  Huh.

• 2:11:23Speaker 01

  And it's still kind of an inexact science, bipolarity.

• 2:11:27Joe Rogan?

  It's crazy to think that coke helps fix some things.

• 2:11:30Speaker 01

  I think it helps, I think it helps, what I've heard is it helps the brain communications. Anybody I've known that's bipolar, as a musician, that did coke, told me they felt normal. It's the first time in their life they felt normal, that their brain worked normally.

• 2:11:42Joe Rogan?

  What a terrible thing.

• 2:11:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, it doesn't work.

• 2:11:45Joe Rogan?

  Imagine if that's the thing that keeps you together, it's cocaine? I wonder if what coca leaves would do, because there's a lot of people like the high altitude hurting populations and, you know, like people in Peru. They chew coca leaves just for energy, and apparently it's a very different thing, like the chewing of the coca leaves.

• 2:12:04Speaker 01

  Or you can get tea, coca tea.

• 2:12:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:06Speaker 01

  I was just in South America.

• 2:12:07Joe Rogan?

  I've had that, mate de coca.

• 2:12:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:12:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:09Speaker 01

  It's kind of like you get a little bit of a clarity.

• 2:12:12Joe Rogan?

  But the chewing of the leaves is like, it's so normal for them, and it's illegal over here.

• 2:12:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, but, but back to the theory, the idea is if you have one side of your brain overdeveloped, it makes you good at something that you wouldn't necessarily be good at.

• 2:12:28Joe Rogan?

  And then bad at life.

• 2:12:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, probably.

• 2:12:30Joe Rogan?

  Right, so you need a handler like Elvis, you need a kernel.

• 2:12:33Speaker 01

  If you're, if you're meeting a successful musician, they're the, they're the graduating class of the bipolarity.

• 2:12:39Joe Rogan?

  Oh, okay, that makes sense.

• 2:12:40Speaker 01

  So there's some functional level of, of acumen.

• 2:12:43Joe Rogan?

  That makes sense, that makes sense.

• 2:12:44Speaker 01

  That's why, when, through the years, as I've heard people give rumor to any number of famous rock stars, it's like, I recognize all the behaviors. Most people treat it like, oh, can you believe so and so did this and made this erratic decision? It's like, no, that's, that's a musician, that's, that's how most of their brains work.

• 2:12:59Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:59Speaker 01

  I don't know what it is, and maybe there's a comedic, uh, parallel, but it just strikes me that the reason there's such consistent bad behavior with musicians is because they, their brains don't work right. And I'm sure somebody's gonna get mad at me for saying that, but I mean it as a compliment. It makes them good at something that they maybe wouldn't necessarily be good at, and maybe, I don't know, I've never been tested, I don't think I'm bipolar, but...

• 2:13:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I probably, I would imagine then, a lot of like motivational speakers would not be awesome band members. You know what I mean? Like, people who are completely dialed in with their life.

• 2:13:32Speaker 01

  Tony Robbins is my new bass player, you know?

• 2:13:34Joe Rogan?

  They get up in the morning and they do their exercise, yoga, and they eat well. They stare at the sun as it rises and they got their fucking whole life dialed in. They probably wouldn't be the best band members.

• 2:13:44Speaker 01

  Well, no.

• 2:13:45Joe Rogan?

  Especially like a lead singer.

• 2:13:46Speaker 01

  There's no, there's no good band members, that's the problem.

• 2:13:49Joe Rogan?

  Well, how do you guys, how do you keep it together for all these years? Like, what's the key to a harmonious?

• 2:13:54Speaker 01

  That's, that's the thing. I mean, we broke up in 2000 and then the drummer and I brought the band back in 2007 and it only lasted two years. And then I soldiered on alone as the only original member from 2009 to 2015. And then the drummer came back and then the guitar player, who I didn't talk to for 16, 17 years, came back in 2018. So we've been an intact three-quarter unit since 2018.

• 2:14:16Joe Rogan?

  How come you guys didn't talk for so long?

• 2:14:18Speaker 01

  It's real heat. It was real heat.

• 2:14:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah? That sucks.

• 2:14:23Speaker 01

  No, it's all, it's all resolved now. I mean, it's all good. I mean, I mean, I think if you don't talk to somebody for 16, 17 years, there's a beef there that, you know what I mean? It lasts.

• 2:14:31Joe Rogan?

  A real one.

• 2:14:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:14:32Joe Rogan?

  But it's interesting to me how people can manage, like, that, it's always, like, as comics, we always look at band members going, imagine if all of your fucking success depended on this guy showing up, that guy showing up, this guy's girlfriend not getting in the way, this guy's fucking uncle not trying to manage you guys. Like, you have all these fucking people and you're trying to put together songs and you're trying to like, get out, "Come on, we got a tour." "I don't want a tour." "My mom needs me to help her with the fucking business." And, "What are you talking about, man? We're in a band. We got a, we have a record deal."

• 2:15:05Speaker 01

  I'm nodding my head because this is every, this is my life experience for 35 years.

• 2:15:09Joe Rogan?

  We, we, as comics, we always talk about, "Thank God, we're like a one-man show. Thank God." All we need is other comics to work with us.

• 2:15:15Speaker 01

  The problem with the band is, is the band members have no idea why it works. We're clueless as to the mystery of why people are attracted to us as a unit. We can certainly conceptualize, like, I write good songs and I play good guitar. But there's something about bands that creates a kind of a magical... Pete Townsend referred to it as a gang. A gang that you want to be in. That's what makes bands attractive to people. That was his opinion. I don't totally... I don't disagree. It's... There's something that goes on in those relationships that's kinetic enough that it sustains past whether or not you have a good song.

• 2:15:53Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right. Yeah, it's a... All the pieces make the puzzle together. It's not one piece as an individual. All of them together make Led Zeppelin.

• 2:16:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:16:05Joe Rogan?

  All of them together.

• 2:16:06Speaker 01

  So if you're lucky, and in this new world, you know, you got the Stones playing into their 80s.

• 2:16:11Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:11Speaker 01

  So the economy of music has changed where it's like you're in an elongated state of success. It's just totally unprecedented, by the way. There's no...

• 2:16:19Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:16:19Speaker 01

  There's no... What's going on with rock bands in their 50s and beyond is there's no prior parallel in 100-plus years of recorded music.

• 2:16:27Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:16:27Speaker 01

  There's not even one instance you can point to and say, "It worked that way then." So we're all in uncharted territory. And there's nobody that can even really advise you. There's always the material thing of like, "Well, you're gonna make a lot of money and, you know, you got this IP and the band." But it's like, the actual sort of the nuts and bolts of how to hang together. So for us, it's been really... It's the... I call it the family of the band. There's some sort of pride that's emerged with like, we've all survived, our relationships are intact enough for us to get on a stage, and somehow it benefits our families individually. So it has allowed us a sort of pride, you know? Because it's less about our relationship and more about our relationship with our families. That's allowed us to have a sweetness between the three of us that we didn't have when we were young.

• 2:17:09Joe Rogan?

  Oh, well, that's cool. Well, also, probably just growing up and being more mature and appreciative.

• 2:17:16Speaker 01

  You're really going on a limb there with the growing up shit.

• 2:17:19Joe Rogan?

  A little bit of gratitude.

• 2:17:21Speaker 01

  Perpetual adolescence over here.

• 2:17:23Joe Rogan?

  Well, that is part of the fun, though.

• 2:17:26Speaker 01

  I mean, you do wait.

• 2:17:26Joe Rogan?

  Actually have to really.

• 2:17:27Speaker 01

  And you know, it's funny, even when I say something like this, there's already some guy getting ready to go on Reddit, but there is a day you wake up and you look in the mirror, like, I'm a rock star. This is fucking cool.

• 2:17:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:37Speaker 01

  And, and, and there's another day that you wake up and go, you know, I don't have to get off this rock star train if I don't want to.

• 2:17:42Joe Rogan?

  Well, look at the Stones. I saw the Stones at Coda, the Circuit of the Americas here in Austin, a couple of years ago. It was fucking insane. It's insane. I, I, I was almost like having an out of body experience because you, you can't believe you're really seeing Mick Jagger. Like when he's out there dancing, I swear to God, I felt like I was on a drug. I was like, my friend Bobby and I were hanging, he, he's the one, he owns that place, Circuit of the Americas. And I was standing next to him, like, I can't believe they're really here. Like, there's certain people that you just get weirded out by being like, Bill Murray was here the other day.

• 2:18:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:18:13Joe Rogan?

  And I even told him, I'm like, I'm weirded out. I'm weirded out that you're here. Like, it's just, there's a lot of people that I don't freak, I mean, I've met a lot of people. I don't freak out about too many of them, but Bill Murray I freaked out about. But seeing Mick Jagger, just, I didn't even get to meet him, but seeing him on the stage, I'm like, this is nuts. That's really Mick Jagger.

• 2:18:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, the, the mythical part, see, in, in, in his case, the mythical part of Mick Jagger and Keith Richards is integrated. They, they, they become the avatar.

• 2:18:44Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:18:44Speaker 01

  They're the living example of where it actually works. My argument is against those people where it doesn't work. You know, Larry465 on the internet. Who thinks he's lord of like, you know, D and D or something, you know what I mean? That's where I get kind of like, what is that? I get the other thing. You know, because, you know, whether it's a, you know.

• 2:19:05Joe Rogan?

  What do you mean by Larry 4?

• 2:19:06Speaker 01

  I'm joking about the guy on the internet who's, his entire status is based on being in a subculture and achieving some status within the subculture, which doesn't really apply into the outside world.

• 2:19:16Joe Rogan?

  Or like a Reddit forum or something.

• 2:19:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, whatever.

• 2:19:18Joe Rogan?

  Whatever it is.

• 2:19:19Speaker 01

  Mick Jagger walks into a stadium full of people, they're there to see Mick Jagger and Keith Richards and Ronnie Wood.

• 2:19:24Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:19:25Speaker 01

  Even though they're 80 and you, who's been around everybody goes, holy shit. There it is.

• 2:19:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, just the fact that he was alive.

• 2:19:32Speaker 01

  Okay, but it's the myth made real.

• 2:19:34Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:19:34Speaker 01

  Have you ever watched those YouTube videos like, what was Caesar really like? You know what I mean?

• 2:19:38Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right, right.

• 2:19:39Speaker 01

  That type of stuff? Like, what was it like to live in those times? Because there's the myth and then there's the reality.

• 2:19:44Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:19:45Speaker 01

  And then sometimes if you learn about the reality, you're like, wow, that guy was really a badass, or she was really a badass, because it's, the thing is real, the mythology is real. It's like,

• 2:19:54Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:19:55Speaker 01

  It has truth or resonance in it. It's all this other culture that's risen up where we're supposed to pay tribute, and that goes back to the podcast, it's like, we're paying tribute to people who haven't done shit.

• 2:20:04Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:20:05Speaker 01

  I want to pay tribute to people who've actually done something.

• 2:20:08Joe Rogan?

  Yes. Well, that's what you like about doing your podcast, then. You just like finding people that resonate with you, that really like, strike a chord.

• 2:20:15Speaker 01

  Uh, I just, the other day, I interviewed Susan Olson, who was Cindy Brady. Okay? The Brady Bunch.

• 2:20:21Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:20:22Speaker 01

  Okay, The Brady Bunch is, you know, as far as the original show, I think, has been over for 50 years. Right, I think so. Right, yeah. Okay. Every interview you look up on YouTube on Susan Olson, it's like, it's just getting her to regurgitate the same stories. And she did The Brady Bunch when she was like, seven to 12 years old or something.

• 2:20:41Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:20:42Speaker 01

  You know what I'm saying?

• 2:20:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. You're Gilligan for life.

• 2:20:45Speaker 01

  Okay. My thing is, no, you're not Gilligan for life. So that's, that's what, and then I, we had a great chat, because I, I think there's a lot to learn from somebody who went through a zeitgeist moment at such a young age. Like, how do you navigate past that? What do you do with yourself? Like, how do you pick yourself up off the ground?

• 2:21:03Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:21:03Speaker 01

  How do you deal with typecasting? How do you navigate the fact that as you walk through the airport, you're not Susan Olson, you're Cindy Brady?

• 2:21:09Joe Rogan?

  Do people still recognize her?

• 2:21:11Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:21:11Joe Rogan?

  Wow. Yeah, well, there's Barbara Eden, I Dream of Jeannie, that was another one.

• 2:21:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:21:16Joe Rogan?

  People get locked into who they are, Al Bundy.

• 2:21:20Speaker 01

  I'm still the rat in the cage guy. I mean, I go, I deal with that too, you know?

• 2:21:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but it's such a good jam. It's such a good jam. That's a fucking great song.

• 2:21:30Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 2:21:30Joe Rogan?

  That's on the green room playlist. That fucking song rules, dude.

• 2:21:34Speaker 01

  That was a good one.

• 2:21:35Joe Rogan?

  Oh, my God. All time.

• 2:21:36Speaker 01

  I didn't get it at the time. I actually had to be talked into it.

• 2:21:39Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 2:21:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. We were putting out our double album and it was this big pressure moment, 95. And I wanted a different song to be the first song. And the guy from the record company called, who's now passed away. His name was Phil Cord, a lovely guy. And he, he literally did the thing on the phone, "Kid, it's a smash. You gotta trust me." And I trusted him.

• 2:21:56Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:21:57Speaker 01

  I thought he was crazy.

• 2:21:58Joe Rogan?

  Didn't you think that that's sometimes because you're too close to your own creation?

• 2:22:02Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 2:22:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Like, you're never gonna get to see how your songs impacted other people. The way it impacted that. You know, you're not gonna feel that the way they feel it. Like, hearing that song for the first time, completed, they've never seen you rehearse it. They don't know how you wrote it. They don't know how you guys practiced it. How you fucked around with the lyrics. You did it different way. They just get the first, they get the full version of it done. They're like, "Holy shit." And they're, it's, it's kind of awful that you don't get to experience that. Like, you created it.

• 2:22:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, the only time I've been able to experience that is when I was really high.

• 2:22:35Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 2:22:36Speaker 01

  Like, getting so high that I could hear it.

• 2:22:39Joe Rogan?

  For the first time.

• 2:22:39Speaker 01

  As if it was somebody else singing.

• 2:22:40Joe Rogan?

  Ooh.

• 2:22:42Speaker 01

  What really tripped me out about doing a lot of drugs back in the day was I would hear messages in my music that I didn't even know I was putting in there. And at some point, I became conscious of my unconscious ability to put messages inside. I'm sorry, you're looking at me like I'm crazy.

• 2:22:57Joe Rogan?

  No, no, no. It's fascinating.

• 2:22:58Speaker 01

  So imagine, I'll try to reset up the scenario.

• 2:23:01Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:23:02Speaker 01

  You write a song, you think it's about something. You're sure of it. In fact, you would tell people, "Sorry, this horrible plague I got."

• 2:23:09Joe Rogan?

  No worries.

• 2:23:11Speaker 01

  You're convinced that this song that you've written is about your ex-girlfriend. And then when you're super high, you listen and you can, you can hear yourself actually singing about something else. So now you have a conscious understanding of something your unconscious has implanted in the art. And once I became conscious of the process, I became more aware of how to consciously plant messages in my music. Does that make sense?

• 2:23:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You just operate on layers. You put stuff in there.

• 2:23:43Speaker 01

  Yes, but I didn't know that I was doing it until I did a lot of drugs. That there was this other voice at work, this subliminal voice.

• 2:23:50Joe Rogan?

  Can you give me an example?

• 2:23:56Speaker 01

  The conscious mind wants to believe the song's about your ex-girlfriend, but what it's really about is about being abandoned by your mother. If you came up to me and said, "What's that song about?", and I trust you and I go, "Oh, it's just about my ex." I believed it. I would believe it, like 100%. And then I listened to it high on drugs and I'm like, "Oh, my God, I'm singing about my mother." And I'm weeping. And I had no conscious mind when I wrote the song that was about my mother. And then, once I have that kind of agape moment of like, "Holy shit", then I go back and listen to the music sober and I can totally hear it. And then where it gets really weird is people would come up to me and say, "That song, that reminded me of my relationship with my mother. Thank you. That healed..."

• 2:24:39Speaker 01

  People would come up and respond to me on the unconscious recognition, not what I thought I wrote the song about. That blew my mind, that there was this other person in their layer at work. And I gained a lot more respect for, I guess we'd call it the shamanic aspects of art. I don't know if you've ever read Castanetus, but do you read Castanetus?

• 2:25:01Joe Rogan?

  Maybe I did in high school, I think.

• 2:25:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. It was kind of a thing for our generation. Everybody kind of read Castanetus.

• 2:25:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:25:07Speaker 01

  And it's still, to this day, debated about whether Castanetus was a real thing. It was a documentary. It was true stories or made up? And did Don Juan, the shaman, was he a real person? Is there really a Don Juan? There's a lot of debate. Even, I think there's even been New York Times articles written about it.

• 2:25:22Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:25:23Speaker 01

  About whether Castanetus, this whole thing, is a fraud and all this stuff. And I think Castanetus may even still be alive.

• 2:25:27Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 2:25:28Speaker 01

  That might be one to look up sometime. But anyway, I gained a lot more respect that artists have the ability to communicate at subconscious levels that they're not even aware of. I don't know if that resonates the way I'm explaining it, but it moved something to me, allowed me to be a better artist.

• 2:25:48Joe Rogan?

  That's fascinating. And it also, like, you can never guess, like, what kind of an impact your, especially if you're too close to it, what kind of an impact your work is gonna have on someone who's seeing it for the first time. And if there's like, multiple layers that you're operating on that you're not even totally aware of, and then you put out this thing that has this, like, very complex, layered message in it, and it just makes people go, "Oh, my god." That's like, one of the ultimate expressions of art, right? Like, something that just, it, music does something very strange that no other art form does. It operates like a drug. Like, music gives you more energy when you're on the treadmill. Like, if a great song comes on, you're working out, you're like, "Fuck,

• 2:26:33Joe Rogan?

  yeah." Like, you feel it, you know?

• 2:26:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:26:35Joe Rogan?

  There's riffs. There's guitar riffs, I swear to god, make you stronger. Like, Tool, Prison Sex.

• 2:26:46Joe Rogan?

  That song makes you just fucking, "rawr!" You know, there's like, something to it. It gives you energy. It's like a drug. There, it's an audio drug. It fires up your synapses in this very strange way.

• 2:26:59Speaker 01

  The best explanation I ever heard that resonated with me was, you know, the entire universe is constructed on waves. Light, everything has to do with waves. So, music is the closest thing to the foundational aspects of the universe.

• 2:27:16Joe Rogan?

  That's okay. I know what you're saying. Yeah, well, that makes sense.

• 2:27:19Speaker 01

  Because it penetrates the cellular.

• 2:27:22Joe Rogan?

  Right. Well, people that, you know, go on these shamanic journeys, the ayahuasca journeys, they play these songs that accompany the ayahuasca journey. They're called ikeros. And when you, uh...

• 2:27:36Speaker 01

  Are they traditional ayahuasca songs?

• 2:27:38Joe Rogan?

  Yes. And they have, like, this weird beat to them. When you listen to them by themselves, you're like, "I don't get it." But if you listen to them under the influence, you, the psychedelic experience dances to those songs, and it gets guided by those songs, and it's really wild. Like, really wild. Like, and then you go, "Oh, this is like, a technology to interface with the psychedelic experience."

• 2:28:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, but, okay, but you're hitting on exactly what I'm saying. I think artists, and I'll exclude myself from the discussion so I don't make somebody mad, artists have a way of knowing how to do that without anybody teaching them.

• 2:28:17Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:28:17Speaker 01

  They just know what music beats, chords, melodies, lyrics to use to penetrate. And the successful artists, think of it, they do it at scale.

• 2:28:27Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Well, there's this thing that happens when someone's really in it, where you feel it from them while they're performing. And you just, you just like get drawn into it like, wow. I remember the first time I saw Mr. Jones in me, the first time I saw Counting Crows play that song. The way he was like dancing around in the living room, like that guy is so free. Like, I want to be free like that. You know, I really remember thinking that because it was so real. He was so in the moment while he's singing that song. And I had Adam in here and I asked him about it. I'm like, what, what is that? Like, you were fucking locked in, man. Like, I remember being a kid, I was probably like 23 or something like that when that song came out.

• 2:29:11Joe Rogan?

  And I was in my apartment in New York watching it going, fuck. Watching it on MTV going, this guy's just so loose, man. He's so free. And I remember thinking, I want to be able to perform like that. And whatever I do, I want to feel like, how's that, what's that zone that he's in?

• 2:29:27Speaker 01

  Well, part of that is, you know, a lot of shamanic work involves the breath. So think a singer is, is rhythmically breathing and rhythmically chanting. So that's one thing that most people would not pick up on. There's a ton of expiration of breath. You know, like what's the Wim Hof, Wim Hof? You know, that, well, I do that for two hours.

• 2:29:50Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:29:51Speaker 01

  I mean, I'm totally asphyxiated the entire time. It's not natural to scream your head off for two hours. It just isn't.

• 2:29:58Joe Rogan?

  Do you have to get in shape to do it? Do you have to get your lungs in shape?

• 2:30:01Speaker 01

  I do, I do, to a certain extent, yeah.

• 2:30:02Joe Rogan?

  Do you build up to like a concert performance? Like, how do you do it?

• 2:30:05Speaker 01

  You have to, to a certain extent.

• 2:30:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah?

• 2:30:06Speaker 01

  I don't know, I don't know how to explain it. Like, if you, if, like, I'm off cycle right now. So if you came to see me play an hour and a half show tomorrow, I could do it, but I probably couldn't talk the next day. But if I do a week of rehearsals and prep up, then I can.

• 2:30:22Joe Rogan?

  So it's like a muscle, like your.

• 2:30:23Speaker 01

  Something, yeah. I don't understand, I don't understand it. It's almost like a trained fury. Like, you learn to not go too far. People say blow your voice out. You have to really know where the line is. By the way, when you're, when you're dealing with a ton of adrenaline. Like the, the thing with fighters comes to mind, like they'll come in, they'll, they'll gas in a minute.

• 2:30:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:30:46Speaker 01

  Cause they're so jacked.

• 2:30:47Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:30:48Speaker 01

  Sometimes you see a guy getting in a ring, they're just like, like.

• 2:30:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:30:51Speaker 01

  And they gas in a minute. And I, I know how to see that because of watching wrestlers gas, you know, you, you get, you, you learn the, the body language of somebody getting gassed, you know, they kind of start to lose their posture and.

• 2:31:01Joe Rogan?

  Yep.

• 2:31:02Speaker 01

  Goosey, right?

• 2:31:03Joe Rogan?

  They get loose.

• 2:31:03Speaker 01

  Okay, same thing for, for a singer. I mean, you can gas in the first three minutes and you're dead, and you're dead.

• 2:31:09Joe Rogan?

  Oh, no.

• 2:31:09Speaker 01

  What are you gonna do?

• 2:31:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:31:11Speaker 01

  So you have to almost like have a controlled fury. Like imagine screaming at the top of your lungs, but not totally at the top of your lungs.

• 2:31:18Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:31:19Speaker 01

  Eighty-seven percent, like there's the magical line.

• 2:31:22Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's what fighting, it's the same kind of thing. You don't go a hundred percent.

• 2:31:25Speaker 01

  Or the zen of that.

• 2:31:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, some of the best fighters, they'll, they'll punch like fifty, sixty percent. And that way they could put volume on you.

• 2:31:33Speaker 01

  So I can't imagine being in there and somebody's on the other side wanting to kill you.

• 2:31:36Joe Rogan?

  Uh huh.

• 2:31:36Speaker 01

  And be able to be like, I'm gonna just gonna work my way through these.

• 2:31:40Joe Rogan?

  Well, you have to have serious experience to be able to manage the storm that way. Did you ever have to take vocal lessons to learn how to not blow your throat out?

• 2:31:48Speaker 01

  I did, yeah. I, I worked with a lady. It's a funny story. I worked with a lady at one point. They hooked me up with somebody from the opera.

• 2:31:55Joe Rogan?

  Oh, perfect.

• 2:31:56Speaker 01

  And she came to my, well, no, it's actually, she was great, but she came to my house and, and she said, oh, you sing totally wrong. And, but here's how to sing right and you won't blow your voice out. And it was all about the right posture and all this stuff. And the first time I tried to do it at a concert with four thousand kids going nuts. I tried to do what she taught me and it didn't work because I just, I, I was in the deep end of the pool and I, I ended up having to go back to all my old bad habits. So eventually I found a woman who was used to working with rock singers and she explained to me a bunch of theories about. I think, per memory, I think she said, the human body has eleven folds of tissue in the throat. And if, and if rock singers don't warm up all that tissue, that's how they damage their singing. And she, and she'd also worked with Steven Tyler.

• 2:32:38Speaker 01

  And she said, the thing about rock singers is you, you guys sing wrong because that's the way you want to sound. It's part of your gimmick, you know?

• 2:32:47Joe Rogan?

  Right, right.

• 2:32:48Speaker 01

  I'm sure Steven Tyler and myself, we could sing like choirboys if we wanted to, but that's not what attracts people to us. It's the razor's edge in the voice or something. So you have to learn how to warm up to sing like an idiot, basically.

• 2:33:01Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 2:33:02Speaker 01

  And that's the sound that people are attracted to with rock singers. And even the gentleman you played before, I mean, he's totally abusing his voice. That is not proper singing.

• 2:33:09Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right, right, right.

• 2:33:11Speaker 01

  And there's, there's, there's, there's physical techniques to create that sound. Like, there's, there's, Axl Rose, for example, like, you know, he sings a very particular way, the way he, he uses his throat in a particular way that makes it, you would say that's the Axl sound or whatever.

• 2:33:28Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:33:28Speaker 01

  It's not natural, but it's awesome when he does it. It's kind of the thing.

• 2:33:32Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that has got to be really hard to maintain. I saw them play in Athens, Greece. And they did a three-hour show, like, two years ago.

• 2:33:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:33:43Joe Rogan?

  At, like, how old is he? Sixty? Sixty-something?

• 2:33:45Speaker 01

  I think Axl's about seven years older than me, so.

• 2:33:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, because I remember Welcome to the Jungle was huge when I was in high school. Or just out of high school.

• 2:33:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, eighty-nine. Eighty-eight, eighty-nine?

• 2:33:56Joe Rogan?

  Was it? Okay, so I graduated in eighty-five. So it was like a couple of years after high school. Welcome to the Jungle. I was like, oh, my god. This song, like, I remember watching the, the music video. Remember when he had the teased-up hair back then?

• 2:34:09Speaker 01

  He had the big hair, yeah.

• 2:34:09Joe Rogan?

  He had the huge hair. That was the poison hair era.

• 2:34:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:34:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, so singing like that is, is, is, it's, it's, it's wrong, but that's what makes it right.

• 2:34:20Joe Rogan?

  Right. Well, you can't say what's wrong or what's right. It's just like what's sustainable.

• 2:34:24Speaker 01

  Trust me, no one can tell you. You're surrounded by a lot of people with a lot of opinions. I, I was told that when I was very young, that voice you sing with will never sell records, ever.

• 2:34:35Speaker 01

  And most people that don't like my music will often cite my voice as the reason they don't like my music, but that's the why that my voice is the reason that people who do like my music like my music.

• 2:34:45Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:34:46Speaker 01

  It's a weird, it's like a, like, what do you do with that?

• 2:34:49Joe Rogan?

  Well, you can't do it for other people.

• 2:34:51Speaker 01

  No, no, but I'm saying, I sing the way I sing, and it's like, it's like, don't sing that way. Well, I don't.

• 2:34:57Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's the whole idea of like, you can't do it for other people. You can't do it for them. You can't do it the way they want it to. No, there's gonna be people who like it the way you want, you like it.

• 2:35:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:35:07Joe Rogan?

  You just have to find out what that thing is, and you have to fit, like, you have to, what, whatever your internal compass is that guides you towards this particular style, this particular way of expressing yourself, it has to be authentic.

• 2:35:19Speaker 01

  Well, singing against a wall of guitars is a particular skill set. It's like singing against three airline jets at the same time.

• 2:35:28Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right.

• 2:35:29Speaker 01

  We have three guitars in our band playing at the same time.

• 2:35:32Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:35:33Speaker 01

  So my voice has to cut like a razor through that.

• 2:35:35Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:35:36Speaker 01

  All of noise.

• 2:35:37Joe Rogan?

  Voices are, there, some voices are so fucking compelling. Like, you listen to them, like Amy Winehouse, perfect example. You hear her sing once, and you're just like, whoa. Like, there's something about it.

• 2:35:52Speaker 01

  Okay, so back to my argument about the unconscious thing. Certain voices convey an unconscious information.

• 2:35:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:35:59Speaker 01

  Tonally, it registers in the public as a certain authority or wisdom, or sorrow.

• 2:36:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:36:06Speaker 01

  Like, some voices just have so much sorrow in them.

• 2:36:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:36:11Speaker 01

  Like, for our generation, when Kurt would sing, and I saw Kurt many times live, it sounded like, it was like the literal howl of our generation. It had this great connectivity to what we were experiencing as latchkey kids.

• 2:36:25Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:36:26Speaker 01

  You know?

• 2:36:27Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:36:27Speaker 01

  I don't wanna say tantrum-ish, but it had a certain kind of

• 2:36:30Joe Rogan?

  Anger.

• 2:36:31Speaker 01

  Anger, but it was, it was the anger of disaffection. It wasn't the anger of a hardcore band, like, you know, screw capitalism.

• 2:36:39Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right, right.

• 2:36:40Speaker 01

  It had a sorrow somehow in it.

• 2:36:42Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Yeah, and authenticity, like Kurt was the master of authenticity. He changed, he killed hairbands.

• 2:36:53Joe Rogan?

  He really did. He killed hairbands. I remember when I was a kid, um, Nevermind came out and I was, uh, with a couple of friends of mine. And, uh, this guy goes, have you seen this? And he shows me this fucking cassette with a baby on the cover. I go, what is it? He's like, this is Nirvana.

• 2:37:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:37:10Joe Rogan?

  And he plays to me Nirvana for the first time over his house. I was like, holy shit. Like, this is crazy.

• 2:37:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was for, for our generation, it was the, it was the, the door getting kicked open.

• 2:37:22Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:37:22Speaker 01

  Everything after just got easier.

• 2:37:24Joe Rogan?

  But that's the thing, these unique artists that come along and transform the medium. You know, like I said, Lenny Bruce, Pryor, then Kinnison. There's a few examples of that in music where someone comes along like Hendrix or Kurt. Or even Elvis, someone comes along and everybody's like, what the fuck is going on? The Beatles.

• 2:37:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:37:42Joe Rogan?

  What is happening? This is crazy.

• 2:37:44Speaker 01

  What, what strikes me, and this is a business point, but that's where all the money is. And, and, and yet the music business is not to nurture those talents. In fact, the music business works against those talents. It's almost like they blow up their business model, so it becomes inconvenient.

• 2:38:01Joe Rogan?

  Well, what do you think the music business nurtures?

• 2:38:03Speaker 01

  Control. They want control. They want, they, they want, the, the, the biggest problem I've seen in the music business is they don't understand why musicians can't be as supple in, in the, in the business part of the equation as, as a guy who makes cookies or something. Like, this is what it costs. Here's your quality control. The public wants more chocolate chips. Can't you just put more chocolate chips in there? And that's, and, and none of that is what attracts the public to, to great artists.

• 2:38:30Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:38:31Speaker 01

  It's, it's, it's, it's like completely counterintuitive. So they sit there and they, you just end up as, as a name on a piece of paper or an inconvenient problem. I mean, I've, I've said this a few times publicly, but it bears repeating here is I've been in meetings where they're complaining, they're complaining to me about me.

• 2:38:51Joe Rogan?

  Like, how so? Like, what do they say?

• 2:38:53Speaker 01

  That, basically, the person that I am in the world is inconvenient to their business. The things I'm saying, the things I'm doing, the music I'm making is inconvenient to the business. And could I temper those things more in the direction that they want?

• 2:39:05Joe Rogan?

  Like, what particularly were they talking about?

• 2:39:07Speaker 01

  It does, you name it.

• 2:39:08Joe Rogan?

  Like, give me one example.

• 2:39:11Speaker 01

  It could be anything from, you know, you're too negative, to your songs are too weird, to your voice is too weird, to your guitars are too loud.

• 2:39:19Joe Rogan?

  They just want to sell more albums.

• 2:39:21Speaker 01

  Yes. So to them, it's an intellectual thing.

• 2:39:24Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 2:39:25Speaker 01

  Be like, Joe, if you could just make more jokes about the economy, you'd sell two stadiums, not just one.

• 2:39:32Joe Rogan?

  This is what happened with Dave Chappelle while he left The Chappelle Show. Same exact kind of thing. You know, a different version of it, but...

• 2:39:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it's this weird thing where you're sitting there and then you're like... And what I always try to tell them is, I didn't get here with that type of thinking. And I do think, and I don't want to name names, but you can, I would say this to your great audience, you can pretty much tell who got to the dance on their own, and somewhere along the way between the second and the fourth album decided that the compromise had a bigger yield.

• 2:40:08Speaker 01

  And off goes the organic switch, and on goes the, oh, you want me to be the next-door neighbor?

• 2:40:15Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:40:15Speaker 01

  Or, you know...

• 2:40:18Joe Rogan?

  Romantic movie ballads.

• 2:40:20Speaker 01

  Whatever.

• 2:40:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Aerosmith went through that for a while.

• 2:40:23Speaker 01

  But to their credit, and I didn't understand at the time, it was a brilliant move, because they'd gone about as far as they could go in the one thing, and they're super influential, including on alternative music. And it ended up being a really smart watershed moment for them to do what they did. At the time, they were doing SNL skits, you remember Adam Sandler used to come out? He would do, I think it was Adam Sandler, where he'd do like, the seven Aerosmith ballads in a row? And it was like, "I'm crying, I'm really crying." You know, they would just play, and he'd just sing all those songs, like Steven Tyler. But I think, looking back, it was really smart what they did.

• 2:40:58Joe Rogan?

  Well, also, maybe they're allowed to do whatever they want to do. Artists changed their whole thing. They went from Mamacan to, you know, some of those ballads.

• 2:41:09Speaker 01

  As far as I know-

• 2:41:11Joe Rogan?

  Same band.

• 2:41:11Speaker 01

  And your herstute assistant over there would probably check. But I think Aerosmith is the biggest selling American rock band of all time.

• 2:41:19Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 2:41:20Speaker 01

  So, if you're Aerosmith, did they make a wrong turn? My argument would be no.

• 2:41:25Joe Rogan?

  No, it's not a wrong turn. I mean, obviously, you're allowed to change what you're interested in, too.

• 2:41:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:41:31Joe Rogan?

  You know, like, there's a lot of bands that sort of reinvent themselves with almost every album. Like, my friend Sturgill Simpson. He sort of reinvents himself with every album. Every album's different.

• 2:41:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:41:42Joe Rogan?

  Like, he just gets bored with stuff. Aerosmith's the best-selling American hard rock band of all time, having sold more than 150 million records worldwide, including over 85 million records in the United States. Whew.

• 2:41:57Speaker 01

  So, yeah.

• 2:41:58Joe Rogan?

  That's pretty good.

• 2:41:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, that's what I'm saying is, only the bands can really know what the right direction to go in is. Because, at some point, you know, what seems so obvious to the audience or some guy in an office isn't necessarily what drives the band forward.

• 2:42:12Joe Rogan?

  Well, then, there's weird cases, like, David Lee Roth leaves Van Halen, Sammy Hagar takes over, and it becomes-

• 2:42:20Speaker 01

  They got bigger.

• 2:42:20Joe Rogan?

  Bigger, in a totally different way.

• 2:42:23Speaker 01

  But if you talk to the average Van Halen fan, they want to hear the David Lee Roth Van Halen.

• 2:42:28Joe Rogan?

  Well, especially if you grew up with that. The thing is, like, what you started out with is always what you want to see.

• 2:42:33Speaker 01

  Right, but I'm saying, there's no obvious argument of which is superior. You know what I'm saying? One sold more records, one is sort of held more in people's hearts because of a particular generational thing, which would be our generation.

• 2:42:46Joe Rogan?

  But some people love the Sammy Hagar version better. Yeah, it's okay. You're allowed to. Like Taylor Swift smells sells a lot of fucking tickets. Like it doesn't, if you're not into it, there's nothing, it doesn't mean it's wrong. I mean, everybody has a weird for the way they interface with the world. And some things get in there and really lock on you and like, wow, this is amazing. And you could take the same concert and another person that you like goes to it, they say this sucks. And you're like, this is a fucking amazing. How can you say this sucks?

• 2:43:19Speaker 01

  Well, I think you're about to see that Nickelback and Creed are about to go on a huge run of business.

• 2:43:24Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 2:43:24Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

• 2:43:27Joe Rogan?

  Nickelback took a lot of shit.

• 2:43:29Speaker 01

  That's kind of my point is, is they've survived it. And now here comes the, the, the inevitable moment of like, oh yeah, it was really good and they wrote a lot of great songs.

• 2:43:39Joe Rogan?

  They had some fucking great songs. That Rockstar song, that's a great song. Like I was, but it was one of those weird things where they had become like a punchline. And for whatever reason, everybody thought that it was okay to shit on Nickelback and comics would shit on them and. It was like a thing that people would mock the success of Nickelback. Meanwhile, they're selling out arenas every fucking night of the week.

• 2:44:01Speaker 01

  So, yeah, I think history has a way of sorting out the bodies is the way I look at it.

• 2:44:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:44:06Speaker 01

  That's kind of how I feel. I mean, this is selfish for me to say this, but this is kind of how I feel about my musical life. I think time will, will tell my story much better than I did.

• 2:44:15Joe Rogan?

  You, well, you seem at peace with that.

• 2:44:17Speaker 01

  I am.

• 2:44:17Joe Rogan?

  It doesn't seem to bother you at all?

• 2:44:19Speaker 01

  I made my peace with it. I mean, it bothered me when it bothered me because it felt unfair or. Yeah, it felt like I was being sort of made to pay for the sins of the people who are no longer here. Cause in, in particularly in Gen X, we've had so many great talents die.

• 2:44:34Joe Rogan?

  Oh, so you felt like you weren't getting the credit you deserve because you survived?

• 2:44:40Speaker 01

  There was part of that. Um, that's this, let's call it the, the simpler version. The more complicated version is, is, is generations move with a collective energy. And by the mid 2000s, the, the, the collective energy of Generation X had mostly dissipated in, in the musical thing. There were bands out playing, but a lot of the lead singers had died. So it's hard to sort of stand and carry a flag for something that people feel very sentimental about. If there isn't an army around you carrying the same flag. So you start to, you, people start to put on you this, like a set of cultural and generational expectations that you don't want. You become, you become the emblem of like, the living version of what doesn't work.

• 2:45:25Speaker 01

  But the other guys, or girls, aren't there to grow old with you and, you know, receive the same discernment or criticism.

• 2:45:34Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 2:45:37Speaker 01

  Like, one time, a guy tried to goad me into an argument of comparing myself to one of the top people, musical people in my generation, I don't want to say who, but you'll understand the flow on this, so, and they, and they, and they said, can you compare, you know, who do you think's better, so it was like a real cheese setup. And I said, I said, well, I think they were more talented. And they, but I said, I feel I'm in the conversation. And they said, why are you in the conversation? I said, because I'm alive. You know what I'm saying?

• 2:46:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:46:07Speaker 01

  I'm here.

• 2:46:08Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's also, like, you can't deny that Smashing Pumpkins didn't have some fucking bangers. Like, anybody who denies that.

• 2:46:16Speaker 01

  Well, Joe, that's a, that's a whole other episode, because the band is probably one of the most misunderstood, I mean, they're probably one, we're probably one of the most misunderstood bands in the history of rock and roll, I mean, that's, sounds like a resting statement, but it's, it's fairly accurate.

• 2:46:31Joe Rogan?

  What do you think that's from?

• 2:46:34Speaker 01

  I think it has a lot to do with the issues of Gen X, and it has a lot to do with a relationship that I set into motion with the media when I was a very young person playing kind of a funny game, like, doing my own, my own version of Andy Kaufman or Bob Zemuda, you understand?

• 2:46:50Joe Rogan?

  Uh huh.

• 2:46:51Speaker 01

  Because I thought it was all shitty, so I was just like, I'm just gonna play with this like a toy, because I think it's kind of funny. I didn't realize that the coming culture was going to kind of, almost be attracted to people who are willing to immolate themselves on the public stage.

• 2:47:05Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 2:47:06Speaker 01

  Does that make sense?

• 2:47:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:47:07Speaker 01

  Most people who are attracted to fame, they want to run towards the shiny part of it.

• 2:47:12Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:47:13Speaker 01

  I was attracted to the non-shiny part, which is, okay, I'll light myself on fire, let's see what happens. Or I'll light you on fire, and let's see what happens. So, it kind of worked in the 90s, when everybody was rolling and moving along, well, here comes Napster, the music business craters, then a bunch of people die, and there you are, standing, you know, now at 40 years old, you're supposed to carry some flag for a generation that doesn't even know who it is anymore.

• 2:47:40Joe Rogan?

  How do you navigate that? Like, did that trouble you at the time? Was it difficult to work as an artist?

• 2:47:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's very difficult. The simple version is, and I had some of the top, top people in the music business, sit me down, one-on-one in a room, and say, "Just give them what they want."

• 2:47:56Joe Rogan?

  Jesus.

• 2:47:58Speaker 01

  "Your life will be a lot better, you'll make a lot more money, and you could put your head on your pillow at night and not have to think about all these things." And my response every time was that, "I don't give a fuck." And I used to quote Popeye, "I am what I am."

• 2:48:14Speaker 01

  "I'm here, I'm here because I'm a freak."

• 2:48:18Speaker 01

  Okay? And I ain't changing for anything.

• 2:48:20Joe Rogan?

  Good for you.

• 2:48:21Speaker 01

  And part of that goes back to my daddy. Okay? I watched a man literally broken by the business. So, I'm the last person that's gonna fucking bow down for that shit. Fuck off.

• 2:48:33Joe Rogan?

  Well, the beautiful thing is too, you always had an audience. So you didn't have to.

• 2:48:37Speaker 01

  Well, there is that, but, but, but, at the end of the day, how can I explain it? Everybody in the music business will tell you your value is exponentially related to your success. So, your biggest song is here, and your next biggest song is here, and there's like a pyramid, and as you go down, you lose value. Your aging becomes part of that loss of value. How do you maintain value, relevancy? You no longer have the record business that used to exist, you no longer have the structure. I mean, the music business is basically a touring business first now.

• 2:49:06Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:49:06Speaker 01

  And everything else is in support of the touring business. We're lucky in that we continue to be a very large touring band. So, you're told over and over again, almost in a propagandistic way, that your value is related to what's on a piece of paper. And then somehow, I woke up in the middle of it, and I thought, "No, no, that's, that's actually not my value." And so, the minute I started saying, "No, I know what my real value is. It's that I'm an independent artist, who, like a voice in the wilderness, represents something." And I know it's not for everybody. Trust me, I've got, been getting that message since I was a little kid. Including from my own family. But, I know what I represent, represents something that's valuable. I can't quite put my finger on it, but I see the consistency of the, let's call it

• 2:49:47Speaker 01

  the communication, between myself and somebody who's interested in what I do. And once I started doubling and tripling down the value, my business started going back up.

• 2:49:56Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:49:57Speaker 01

  The way I would say it in a crass way is, I reasserted my brand. Not the brand I was being handed in Forty Plus Brand. You know, you're an oldies band, you're an oldies artist, you play these songs.

• 2:50:10Joe Rogan?

  Well, you just kept and reinforced your true voice.

• 2:50:13Speaker 01

  Hmm?

• 2:50:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:50:16Speaker 01

  But I had to live it.

• 2:50:17Joe Rogan?

  Which brought you to the dance in the first place.

• 2:50:19Speaker 01

  It seems silly, but that's what I had to figure out. I had to figure that out on my own, because there was nobody telling me that. I mean, you gotta understand, and you're a man of the world, so you know what I'm saying. When you're in a room with somebody who runs the fucking world, in my case, runs the music business.

• 2:50:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:50:36Speaker 01

  The guy who can get shit done, the guy who can get you cancelled, the guy who can fucking make stuff happen.

• 2:50:40Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:50:41Speaker 01

  And that guy tells you, here's your value. It's awfully hard to go back to Chicago, Illinois, and convince yourself that he's wrong.

• 2:50:47Joe Rogan?

  Right. Right.

• 2:50:50Speaker 01

  There's nobody, and who do you talk to about it?

• 2:50:52Joe Rogan?

  Especially if fame is fleeting, it comes and goes, album sales come and go, and there's a new big thing right now, there's the new thing. You're not the new thing anymore. Yeah, and then someone's coming along, "Listen, you've gotta listen to us. We know how you can be back on top."

• 2:51:08Speaker 01

  I don't read comments, but I have a social media person who occasionally relays what she sees.

• 2:51:12Joe Rogan?

  Oh, boy.

• 2:51:14Speaker 01

  Well, we kind of keep it on the positive, but my favorite comment of the last few years was, she started poking around with young fans, sixteen, eighteen year olds, who were suddenly seeming to come out of the woodwork and liking the band and me. Almost like a cuddly bear or something. They suddenly were attracted to me in a way that the sixteen and eighteen year olds of the previous generation weren't. So I asked her, I said, "Why don't you poke around with these people and ask them what's interesting?" And my favorite comment, and it became kind of common amongst the feedback that she got, was, "I like him because, because other people told me not to like him."

• 2:51:49Speaker 01

  But what that says to me, anybody can interpret the way they want, but what it said to me is, we need people in the zeitgeist of the culture who don't represent the collective yes. There's always room for somebody on the corner saying no.

• 2:52:05Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:52:05Speaker 01

  And that goes back to Lenny Bruce. As crazy as all that was, you still need that guy going, no, no, no, no, no. You know what I'm saying? And you can call them whatever, disruptors or whatever.

• 2:52:16Joe Rogan?

  Well, authentic voices.

• 2:52:18Speaker 01

  That sounds nicer than disruptor. I like disruptor because that's what I do.

• 2:52:22Joe Rogan?

  Well, it does disrupt, but it disrupt because it's an authentic voice. Because it bucks the idea of creating some manufactured thing for the market.

• 2:52:35Speaker 01

  I've told many people in the music business, I know that you don't want me in this business, but I'm here. And I've made a lot of money. And I've made a lot of people a lot of money. Like, what's the problem?

• 2:52:44Joe Rogan?

  Oh, so you made great songs. Like, the idea that-

• 2:52:47Speaker 01

  But most people are in the business for the music.

• 2:52:49Joe Rogan?

  But the idea that somebody wouldn't want you in the business when you've been very successful in the business is just insane. It doesn't even make any sense.

• 2:52:59Speaker 01

  Doesn't make sense to me.

• 2:53:01Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's the weird thing that you guys have to deal with. You deal with like this whole layer of non-artistic people that have influence over art.

• 2:53:11Speaker 01

  Having heard you many times do commentary for UFC, what I love about you as a commentator is you take me into the passion of the moment, the feeling of like, two warriors are going to enter this thing and only one can emerge. There's a feeling there that's like, and I've been to some of the events, it's like, it has that like, it's sort of a life-affirming, like, here we are. You know, and you know because you're behind the scenes, the training that went in, the injuries the guy had overcome, or the girl, or whatever, or the crazy girlfriend, and they got, you know, the training camp and all of it, and there it is, the clash. It's no different for the musician. It's like, you know? I sit in a room for a year and make songs with only three, four people hearing them.

• 2:53:53Speaker 01

  And I have to believe that I'm going to walk into that, my version of that octagon, and what I'm going to offer is not going to get me killed.

• 2:53:59Joe Rogan?

  What is it like when you release an album? What is that feeling like?

• 2:54:03Speaker 01

  I just, I just, I want to curl up in a ball and just die. Because here it comes. Here it comes. And sometimes I'm pleasantly surprised. But I've had more negative experiences than positive ones.

• 2:54:14Joe Rogan?

  But positive from the fans, is it non-fans that are the problem? It's like the people on the outside peering in?

• 2:54:24Speaker 01

  Twenty years ago, I would have given you a different answer. Now, it's, nobody's the problem. It's ultimately, the game is you versus yourself. I don't know if there's any commonality in the fighting world, or the comedic world.

• 2:54:34Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:54:35Speaker 01

  It's you versus yourself. It's not the audience's fault. It's not the guy at the radio station, or the girl at the arena. It's nothing to do with them. Because the one thing you do know is if you find that value, that makes a wheel turn, that prints cash, they don't care who you are. They'll push you right back under the spotlight. So, once you can figure that game out, that's the game. The game is you versus you. It's not you versus them. In fact, that's the sucker's game.

• 2:55:10Joe Rogan?

  So, it's you just trying to create the best version of what you have inside your head?

• 2:55:15Speaker 01

  Let's do a simple math. And anybody wants to have a problem with it, I don't care. Okay? My band, in over thirty years, has been in the top 0.1 percentile of touring artists in the world.

• 2:55:34Speaker 01

  Period. You would think that if you were in that business, and you were at that elite level, you would think the whole business would rally around you, and try to get you to do more and make more. Not even close to that. There is no system by which you get that kind of support. You are completely on your own.

• 2:55:55Joe Rogan?

  But is that universal with successful artists?

• 2:55:58Speaker 01

  I think so. I hear different stories about the top pop artists, but I think that's because they're making so much money. It's like, they're like a multinational corporation. Most bands, their experiences are similar to ours. You're kind of on your own, you have your team of people, and then you walk into the arena with what you got, what you think is gonna work. But I hear about the modern pop stars, I mean, I hear stuff that sounds, it sounds like they're running a Fortune 500 company because they're, they're, they are literally printing cash.

• 2:56:25Joe Rogan?

  Also, the percentage that the actual artists get versus what they should be getting.

• 2:56:29Speaker 01

  It hurts.

• 2:56:31Joe Rogan?

  It's crazy.

• 2:56:32Speaker 01

  It hurts.

• 2:56:33Joe Rogan?

  It's crazy because they do everything. They create the music, they perform the music, and yet they're not making the money. People are coming to see them perform the music, yet they're not making the money. There's some bizarre vampires that have attached themselves to the veins.

• 2:56:51Speaker 01

  It's changing. I think in the next 20 years, you're going to see a very music, a very different music business.

• 2:56:57Joe Rogan?

  In what way?

• 2:56:58Speaker 01

  Peer-to-peer ability to create commerce.

• 2:57:01Joe Rogan?

  Right. And then also the fact that you could release things so, like Oliver Anthony, he put out that Rich Men, North of Richmond, and then it's fucking gigantic, 100 million views on YouTube. It's like, it's crazy.

• 2:57:15Speaker 01

  But like 20 years ago, your success and who you work with would have been unthinkable.

• 2:57:21Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right.

• 2:57:22Speaker 01

  And you're an independent voice, you've built it. I mean, it's yours, right? So that's what I'm saying, that's coming for music.

• 2:57:28Joe Rogan?

  Mmm.

• 2:57:30Speaker 01

  This is coming for music.

• 2:57:31Joe Rogan?

  Right. Well, that's good.

• 2:57:33Speaker 01

  Yes, I think ultimately will benefit the fans of the artist and they'll get more of what they want and less of what they don't want.

• 2:57:38Joe Rogan?

  Here, here. All right. Let's wrap it up. Thank you, sir. Appreciate you very much. Always fun to talk to you.

• 2:57:46Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 2:57:47Joe Rogan?

  Tell everybody what your podcast's called, where they can get it.

• 2:57:49Speaker 01

  The Magnificent Others. You can get it on YouTube or anywhere.

• 2:57:54Joe Rogan?

  Thank you, sir. Appreciate you.

• 2:57:57Speaker 01

  Thanks, everyone.

• 2:57:57Joe Rogan?

  All right, bye, everybody.