How to Speak Up with Confidence ft. Tori Kelly

Have you ever talked yourself out of speaking before you even opened your mouth? I think a lot of us have. We convince ourselves that everyone else is smarter, more experienced, or has something more valuable to say. So we stay quiet. The problem is, the more you do that, the easier it becomes to believe the lie that your voice doesn't matter. In this conversation, Tori Kelly shares how she spent years believing people only wanted to hear her sing—not hear what she thought. We talk about where that belief came from, how she learned to challenge it, and what it takes to find the confidence to speak up when your mind is telling you to stay silent. Join me on Supercast for ad-free episodes, bonus content, and AMAs: https://jefferson.supercast.com/ Leave me a voicemail to be featured on the show! https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/ask-jefferson Order The Next Conversation Workbook: https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/workbook Thank you to our sponsors: Cozy Earth. Upgrade Your Every Day. Get 20% off at cozyearth.com/jefferson or use code JEFFERSON at check out. LMNT. Head to https://drinkLMNT.com/jefferson to try risk free. Upwork. Visit https://Upwork.com right now to post your job for free and connect with expert freelancers who can help you grow faster without adding full-time overhead. Try Gusto today at https://gusto.com/JEFFERSON, and get three months free when you run your first payroll. BetterHelp. Click https://betterhelp.com/jeffersonfisher for a discount on your first month of therapy. Order my book, The Next Conversation, or listen to the full audiobook today. Like what you hear? Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a 5-star review! Suggest a topic or ask a question for me to answer on the show! Want a FREE communication tip each week? Click here to join my newsletter. Join My School of Communication Watch my podcast on YouTube Follow me on Instagram Follow me on TikTok Follow me on LinkedIn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:30Speaker 01

  Here I am at the table, and I know I have something to say.

• 0:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 0:32Speaker 01

  But I'm dealing with that mental block. Nah, they know better than me. I probably shouldn't say anything. I'm just gonna be quiet.

• 0:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 0:38Speaker 01

  How, Tori, how did you get over that?

• 0:40Speaker 02

  Remove that lie that I've told myself a lot of my life, which is, you don't have anything to offer the conversation. People just know you as a singer. So just sing your little songs. Think I grew up feeling like my opinion didn't matter. Think I've had to unlearn that. You do have something to say. You can offer something to the conversation.

• 1:03Speaker 01

  When it comes to self-worth, what have you learned

• 1:10Speaker 01

  now that, about your self-worth that you didn't know before?

• 1:15Speaker 02

  I think I've definitely struggled with self-worth, I would say. I've been an artist for most of my life and a singer most of my life. And I think me as a person and me as an artist, a lot of times it was hard to separate that, especially growing up. Because, you know, if I'm singing for people and I'm getting applause and, you know, getting a reaction, I'm like, oh, cool, I'm worth something to them.

• 1:50Speaker 01

  And you were signed really early.

• 1:51Speaker 02

  I was signed when I was 12.

• 1:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, technically 11, actually. Like 11, 12, I was in the industry.

• 1:59Speaker 01

  Before you really know who you are as a person.

• 2:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, like at all. A literal child. Yeah, looking back, it's insane. But I did feel really protected. I mean, I had my parents right there with me. So, you know, I was, I felt,

• 2:18Speaker 02

  yeah, I feel like I didn't have any crazy experiences as a kid in the industry. I just always felt like I was kind of one foot in, one foot out. Like, I'd get signed, didn't work out. You know, go back to the drawing board, go in my room, be sad, write some songs, which was, I mean, that's how I discovered songwriting. It's like, oh, I have stuff to say now. Yeah, an outlet. So, yeah, I think when it comes to self-worth,

• 2:48Speaker 02

  it was, yeah, it was hard for me to separate the approval and applause and like the praise from, that I would get from people, from this gift that I have. You know, I would, that was my self-worth. And then I think as I got older and, you know, started to have more doors closed, like things just wouldn't work out. Labels just didn't really know what to do with me.

• 3:23Speaker 02

  That really sucked because then I'm like, oh, now I don't have self-worth. You know, or what am, you know, what, who even am I if I don't have this praise from other people? Or if I'm not singing, you know, who am I? So I definitely struggled with that. I think that's where my faith really came into play because, you know, I grew up going to church, grew up learning about Jesus. And I think it was somewhere around high school where,

• 3:54Speaker 02

  I would say before high school, I still had a very real, pure relationship with God. But then it became, you know, way more personal around high school. And I think that's where, that's really the only other place I knew to turn to get any sort of worth, you know? And reading like, oh, I'm, even if I don't have music and all of this stuff goes away, I'm still a child of God. I'm still, like, this is where I get my identity from. So I think that was, that started to shape really like the foundation of who I was. And I've always just kept coming back to that.

• 4:37Speaker 02

  So when something, you know, doesn't go the way that I want or it's, it's just so freeing to be like, okay, I don't actually have to rely on other people, you know, to get any sort of worth. Because I already know where that comes from. And then anything on top of that is just bonus.

• 4:56Speaker 01

  Bonus, yeah.

• 4:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's like, okay, cool. Like, I'm glad you like my art, but that's, I'm not gonna.

• 5:02Speaker 01

  Tie myself.

• 5:02Speaker 02

  Exactly. I'm not, I'm not gonna like rely on that to, you know, make myself feel better. Or nowadays, it's, you know, social media too. It's like, I'm not gonna, I don't need these comments. And whether bad or good, I'm not gonna let that affect,

• 5:17Speaker 02

  you know, who I am at my core. It's definitely hard still. Sometimes I wrestle with it for sure. But I think having that as my real foundation has been like an absolute game changer.

• 5:29Speaker 01

  I want us to imagine that there's a 11 or 12-year-old girl who's listening.

• 5:40Speaker 01

  What would you tell her that

• 5:46Speaker 01

  you want her to know about her self-worth?

• 5:52Speaker 02

  I think I would want to say,

• 5:57Speaker 02

  if I'm picturing, picturing myself at that age, I think I'd want to say,

• 6:04Speaker 02

  you don't have to figure out who you are right now. Like, there's, you have time, there's no, there's no rush. I remember feeling like, I don't know who I am. I need to, you know, and then you start grabbing for things. I would say just,

• 6:26Speaker 02

  yeah, take a breath, slow down. You don't have to, you don't have to have all the answers. You won't, you will never have all the answers. And then, and then, yeah, kind of what I was saying, you know, just, just a second ago of speaking from experience, like, don't, don't put your

• 6:46Speaker 02

  self-worth in the hands of other people. You know, make sure that comes from, from within. Have some, some kind of,

• 6:58Speaker 02

  something you can really hold on to, you know? And for me, that's always been Jesus. It's always been my faith. But, yeah, I think, I think ultimately not letting other people determine that for you, I think is, is important.

• 7:13Speaker 01

  I like that. Don't loan out your self-worth.

• 7:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:17Speaker 01

  Don't, don't put it in somebody else's hands.

• 7:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. But at the same time, you don't, because I think when I, when I hear that, I'm like, okay, well, if it's not coming from other people, I gotta figure out, you know, who I am. What's my, even personality-wise, like, I just, I didn't know, you know, I was comparing myself to other people so much too, as a kid. You know, that artist over there, they're, he's like, you know, giggly Disney kids with these big personalities. I'm like, I gotta somehow be that. Because I was so shy and reserved. And, you know, instead of just owning that and

• 7:53Speaker 02

  being okay with that, I thought that there was something wrong with me. So I tried to change myself, and then it's not authentic. And, yeah, so it's, it took me some time to, you know, be okay with just who I am.

• 8:07Speaker 01

  Would you say that you're still a little bit shy and reserved?

• 8:11Speaker 02

  For sure, yeah. But the difference now is that I've just, I've just leaned into it. I'm like, okay, this is, this is who I am.

• 8:19Speaker 01

  So that's, that's what people need to know. Tori Kelly is a very shy person.

• 8:24Speaker 02

  I am. I feel like a lot of people who are on these big stages, they actually are more reserved behind the scenes.

• 8:30Speaker 01

  How do you do that? How do you switch that from, because we'll be at the show tonight. I mean, going from thousands of people to maybe just having a harder time when it's just you and 12 people in the room?

• 8:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know what it is. I think maybe when I'm up there. And so I just, I kinda, I kinda zone out. I just, I feel like my, you know, my voice takes over, the words that I'm singing take over and I'm kind of transported into this other place, I think. And then, you know, being on stage all the time and touring all the time, it is, it can be very overstimulating. It, I mean, it's like a high, it's like can be like a drug, people get addicted to it, right? And so the, the af- what you do afterwards, I think, is important. I think I actually crave the quiet now because I'm constantly, you know, in front of people and like

• 9:26Speaker 02

  just in performer mode.

• 9:30Speaker 02

  So I think having, you know, even, even immediately after the show, I'll tell my team like, hey, I just need like 10 minutes, decompress, I do my cool down, my vocal cooldowns. And um, kind of like come back to earth and then I'm, then I'm ready to, you know, be back in real life.

• 9:51Speaker 01

  Well, first, I'm gonna, I can't let this go. I've never heard of a vocal cooldown.

• 9:58Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, it's just as important as the warmups.

• 10:01Speaker 01

  Tell me what that is.

• 10:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. So do you know warming up your voice? I'm sure you've heard of, right?

• 10:05Speaker 01

  I, I know like,

• 10:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. I don't wanna spit on the mic, but it's like a, a popular one is like,

• 10:16Speaker 02

  like that kinda like loosens up.

• 10:19Speaker 01

  Warm your stuff up.

• 10:19Speaker 02

  Your voice. Yeah. So a warm up before the show, it's hard to do.

• 10:25Speaker 02

  If you like this, actually it helps. And you can't smile.

• 10:28Speaker 01

  I know, I'm smiling, Tori, I can't.

• 10:30Speaker 02

  It's like really relaxed. Yeah, there you go.

• 10:33Speaker 01

  I'm ready to perform.

• 10:35Speaker 02

  You can, you can probably warm up before your, for your podcast. I feel like talking actually tires me out more than singing, funny.

• 10:42Speaker 01

  Oh, we'll say less words then, okay.

• 10:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm done now.

• 10:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, this is a wrap.

• 10:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:47Speaker 01

  Okay, so what's cooled down?

• 10:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, so cooling down, so when I'm doing the show, my voice is kind of like, I mean, I'm hitting high notes, it's, it's sort of, it stays up here for pretty much the whole show and then, you know, everything's elevated. And so if I were to get offstage and just keep talking and I'm like, you know, talking louder without realizing it, cause I'm still in that heightened place. So if I just continue my night like that and I'm like, hey, thank you so much, and I'm talking to everybody backstage, then my voice is, that actually does more harm to my voice than even being on stage. It's like what you do after is so important. So I'll kind of hide in my green room for a second and I'll,

• 11:29Speaker 02

  it's literally the opposite of, you know, if I'm warming up and I'm going, ooh, the cooldown would be, and I'm kind of getting my voice back to.

• 11:38Speaker 01

  That's awesome.

• 11:39Speaker 02

  Back to like speaking level, you know, and so it'd be like, like hmm, or like, just everything is down and getting it, you know, back to just relax, don't overdo it. A lot of it's mental too.

• 11:54Speaker 01

  So if they're listening like to the green room door, it's just you doing the.

• 11:59Speaker 02

  They're probably all, yeah, they're all used to it by now. Like, oh, Tori's doing here.

• 12:03Speaker 01

  How long do you do it?

• 12:04Speaker 02

  It doesn't, it, it doesn't take, I mean, I'll, I'll actually continue to do it throughout the night even. If I'm, if I'm feeling a little funky, but uh, I mean, just a couple of minutes even sometimes is all I need. Yeah. And then I end up, I have like my tour talking voice. So even, even right now, I feel like I'm subconsciously kinda talking lighter.

• 12:27Speaker 01

  Light and airy.

• 12:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, light and airy, you know.

• 12:30Speaker 01

  So this is not, is this your like, this is, this is conversational interview.

• 12:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:36Speaker 01

  Tori. Okay, got it.

• 12:38Speaker 02

  But it's also on tour, Tori, on, on tour.

• 12:42Speaker 01

  Then what's like?

• 12:43Speaker 02

  Version. Nor, I feel like my normal, yeah, home, if I'm not thinking about singing, it's like a little more like this, it's a little, you know,

• 12:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:50Speaker 02

  thicker, lower, more annoying.

• 12:54Speaker 01

  Ready to go. Gotcha.

• 12:56Speaker 02

  Ready to go.

• 12:57Speaker 01

  I might beat you up.

• 12:57Speaker 02

  I think I have a lower speaking voice than I realize. And then I have to like remember, you're trying to protect your vocals, so.

• 13:05Speaker 01

  Okay, got it. Well, yeah, for sure. That's a, that's a big part of it. Uh, also, the way you just described, the shyness, makes me think, th- in this question's really from my kids.

• 13:19Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, I know where this is going.

• 13:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:21Speaker 01

  Is it, yes, from Sing, the movie Sing. Is that really your like

• 13:25Speaker 02

  easiest character ever?

• 13:26Speaker 01

  To relate to.

• 13:27Speaker 02

  It's literally me.

• 13:28Speaker 01

  So shy.

• 13:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:30Speaker 01

  And then she starts singing and the, the voice comes out and everything gets lost.

• 13:33Speaker 02

  Literally me to a T as a kid. I mean, I never got that shy where I like knocked over a microphone or anything, but I relate so, so hard to me when they, when they approached me to, to do that role. I auditioned and everything and I just couldn't get over how perfect. It was just a dream role.

• 13:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:54Speaker 02

  Like this is literally my life. So yeah, I still, I still can't get over just the, yeah, the fact that I'm Mina, the elephant.

• 14:01Speaker 01

  That was cool.

• 14:03Speaker 02

  Like little Tori would be freaking out.

• 14:05Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 14:06Speaker 02

  I was, I had never done voice acting before, so I was inevitably a little nervous going into it. I, you know, I could do all the songs, that was.

• 14:13Speaker 01

  It's just a different level. I mean, but you're an artist, you know, so it's just, it's like painting on a different canvas.

• 14:18Speaker 02

  Exactly. But I, I still was like, I don't know what to expect. You know, the director's in the room with me, so it's, you know, it's a, it's big movie production. So I get in there, but then I quickly realize any nervous energy that I have, I could just channel into this character who's already, she's supposed to be shy and nervous. So it, it really was uh, pretty funny how that all worked out.

• 14:40Speaker 01

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• 16:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:10Speaker 01

  You know, what would you?

• 16:15Speaker 01

  When I'm, when I'm thinking on, you see, I'm like working.

• 16:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, I love it.

• 16:18Speaker 01

  Of somebody who's shy

• 16:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:20Speaker 01

  and reserved. Because the, the people I get the help, Tori, all the time are people who struggle or want to improve in the way they communicate with people.

• 16:31Speaker 01

  And what I find so beautiful about it is everybody has a different style of voice.

• 16:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:40Speaker 01

  But the message is always something that's could just blow you away. And I find that people who are very shy, very introverted,

• 16:51Speaker 01

  like, don't count them out on having some of the most like deepest thought provoking words. If you were to talk to somebody who's super shy, what kind of advice would you give them

• 17:08Speaker 01

  to say this is something worth valuing?

• 17:12Speaker 02

  Like being shy is something worth valuing? Yeah.

• 17:14Speaker 01

  Not, not to be anything different than who you are.

• 17:17Speaker 02

  I, I would say I do think it's important to have some kind of outlet. I think songwriting for me has, has been that. Because like you said, I think people who are more shy and more reserved, I think we might have a harder time in the moment saying the, the deep thing that we're trying to think of. I, I, I still, I don't think I'm the best at, you know, on the spot, like just having the best.

• 17:47Speaker 01

  Thinking on your feet.

• 17:48Speaker 02

  Words all the time. Yeah. But I think my superpower is in my songwriting. I feel like I can really get an emotion across. I can, I can make people feel things that maybe they haven't felt before. I can help people put, you know, yeah, describe a feeling that they've been trying to describe, but they can't. So, and sometimes I, I can't even put into words, but I can sing it for you. You know, I can sing it in a song. So I, I feel like lately too, I've been writing things out helps me a lot too, because I'm a very slow processor.

• 18:29Speaker 02

  And I don't know if that goes hand in hand with, I don't know if all reserved shy people are also slow processors.

• 18:35Speaker 01

  I'm a very slow processor.

• 18:36Speaker 02

  Okay. And would you say you're shy slash reserved? No.

• 18:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I am a slower processor, that's for sure.

• 18:45Speaker 02

  So I have, so I have all, all three then, yeah, shy, reserved, slow.

• 18:51Speaker 01

  Amazing voice. Got it.

• 18:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:53Speaker 01

  It bounces. It really does.

• 18:54Speaker 02

  It bounces out. Yeah, yeah. But um, but yeah, writing things out has really helped me even, honestly, like even before, I don't know if this is even advice anymore. I'm just more speaking.

• 19:04Speaker 01

  It doesn't matter.

• 19:04Speaker 02

  Experience, but.

• 19:05Speaker 01

  We're just talking.

• 19:06Speaker 02

  My uh, even when I'm about to have some kind of phone call or I know I'm gonna, you know, or I need to talk to somebody about something, I'll write it out in like letter form. And that already just helps me. I'll just write it out and then I don't even have to look at it again and it just kinda, you know, gets my, my wheels turning and makes me feel a little more confident.

• 19:30Speaker 01

  So you write, you write out what you're gonna say ahead of time?

• 19:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, even if I don't end up saying it, it just, it helps me streamline my thoughts. Cause I think I just have so much going on up here at all times. And the you know, the over thinker in me wants to be like, okay, well, you can't say that because then, you know, that'll lead to this or someone will think this and it's just, it's all, it's all nonsense, but I.

• 19:59Speaker 01

  I share this belief like you.

• 20:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:02Speaker 01

  That if you're able to write it out ahead of time, there's something about it that. Can click the lightbulb in a way you didn't expect.

• 20:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:13Speaker 01

  To approach a conversation from a different advantage.

• 20:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. Honestly, sometimes I've even I've even written out a long paragraph. And then by doing so, I've realized, oh, I don't even need to have this conversation anymore. I just needed to write out and process whatever this is.

• 20:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:36Speaker 02

  And I actually think it'd be better if I don't have this conversation.

• 20:39Speaker 01

  This is so good. Yeah, okay.

• 20:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, it has, it has helped me a lot to, to just get out my thoughts. I think it goes with songwriting too, of just kind of having, having an outlet, having a place to just, yeah, let all of that out, I think is important.

• 20:53Speaker 01

  You gotta flush it out.

• 20:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:55Speaker 01

  Because I know that what I find is when you're able to, no filter, just write or type, get it all out. Then you're able to look at, do I even need to have this conversation?

• 21:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:10Speaker 01

  I probably don't need to say this. Now that I've looked at it, like in, in front of me and it's not in my head, it's like,

• 21:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's not.

• 21:17Speaker 02

  Comes out wrong.

• 21:17Speaker 01

  It's, that's just for me. It's not for them.

• 21:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:21Speaker 01

  And I think that's a really smart way of handling conversations. So is that, has that helped you as a shy person?

• 21:26Speaker 02

  It has, yeah. And when it comes to, yeah, communicating with people, or if something is burdening me, I have to, you know, let it out or consider talking to someone about it. Yeah, that, that's definitely helped me, just writing it all out. And I should probably, this is making me wanna like journal again. I do so much on, on my phone these days.

• 21:50Speaker 01

  Oh, that's what we got in our hands.

• 21:51Speaker 02

  I know. But it's, it makes me miss, you know, I used to journal all the time growing up and, but it's, yeah, it's that, that same concept, I guess.

• 22:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it, that it can easily turn into writing or songwriting or

• 22:06Speaker 02

  Right.

• 22:06Speaker 01

  Anything else. So I, that's, that's wild. I, I would have never pegged you for somebody who was super

• 22:13Speaker 02

  Really?

• 22:13Speaker 01

  shy.

• 22:14Speaker 02

  Really?

• 22:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:16Speaker 02

  That makes sense because, yeah, you see me on stage. It's funny, my husband even said before we started dating, uh, he, he had this, you know, idea of me because he saw that I, I had kind of a following at that point when we met. He, yeah, he just assumed I was, you know, kinda outgoing.

• 22:35Speaker 01

  On the stage.

• 22:36Speaker 02

  On stage, cared about, you know, whatever, like, whatever artists care about and somewhere not in reality, you know, and uh, maybe a little bit of a diva or something. And then he obviously got to know me and he was like, okay, yeah, that's, you're obviously not like that. But, um, yeah, he just, he just assumed that I was more outgoing. Cause I guess I, I guess I kinda turn into a more confident version of myself on stage. I don't know why that is.

• 23:09Speaker 01

  I mean, I guess.

• 23:10Speaker 02

  Artists though, that, that, that's, that happens.

• 23:13Speaker 01

  They're very shy and then they turn into something else. Or like, in other words, some inspirer comes out of them.

• 23:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 23:20Speaker 01

  I mean, in a little time I've known you, you know, one is, you know, when you have your, your voice can an incredible range. So your voice can get big.

• 23:30Speaker 02

  Right.

• 23:30Speaker 01

  You have big hair, you know, like, and so it's easy to be like, okay, this is just by instinct of,

• 23:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:37Speaker 01

  Oh, I think I know who this is. And then you actually get to know them and they go,

• 23:41Speaker 02

  Right.

• 23:41Speaker 01

  Hey, I'm Tori.

• 23:42Speaker 02

  Hey, I'm Mina.

• 23:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is my Tori voice.

• 23:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 23:46Speaker 01

  Something like that. Would you say you're somebody who throughout your life has been like a people pleaser type?

• 23:55Speaker 02

  Hmm. I mean, yeah, I think in the past, yes. I mean, when I was talking about, you know, craving that approval from other people, um, or even like approval from my parents or, because I'm, I'm the oldest.

• 24:11Speaker 01

  Of how many?

• 24:12Speaker 02

  Of, of just two. There's, there's one younger brother. Uh, what about you?

• 24:16Speaker 01

  I'm the oldest of four.

• 24:17Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 24:18Speaker 01

  But I feel like if it was just two, I would always be like, oh, you know, I'm the oldest.

• 24:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:23Speaker 01

  I guess as, as oldest of four, I don't, I don't have to say it.

• 24:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. I, I think, uh, yeah, I, I definitely used to care more about what, what people thought and therefore, you know, wanted to please them and, and yeah, gain approval, whatever, whatever that meant. Especially I think when it came to my music. Um, but now it's kind of a new thing for me stepping into motherhood and really not caring about what people think. It's like, right when I had him. So really, yeah, seven months of not caring what people think.

• 25:04Speaker 01

  Right, yeah.

• 25:05Speaker 02

  Um, but no, I, I think the first wave of it was when I turned 30. There was something about stepping into my 30s. I felt more sure of, of who I was. It goes back to even like owning the shyness and just be like, whatever, I'm,

• 25:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:18Speaker 02

  You know, this is my personality, take it or leave it. I'm not gonna try to fit in this box for, for anybody. And then that was the first wave of it. And then now, you know, becoming a mom, I'm like, oh, okay, now there's.

• 25:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. For us, it was like.

• 25:33Speaker 02

  My family, you know?

• 25:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. For us, it was definitely, Sierra didn't really care about when anybody thought, like at that point in time, she's like, I was, I have this child and this is all I care about.

• 25:45Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 25:45Speaker 01

  My hair's gonna be in a messy bun. I have nobody, I don't care.

• 25:47Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 25:48Speaker 01

  I'm gonna go to the store, I don't care. And then for me, as soon as our son's born, like, I'm just, I just cry, like all the time. It's just dad. I think dad feels are real. I don't know what it is.

• 25:59Speaker 02

  Oh, my goodness.

• 26:00Speaker 01

  But all of a sudden you can read a book and you're just.

• 26:03Speaker 02

  Just everything hits you different.

• 26:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Which is, which is a beautiful thing. Before we get going, I want to take a moment to tell you about Upwork. For those of you who own business, you know that it does no good to do more things. What you need to do is the right things and let go of the rest. That's exactly what Upwork does. Upwork is a platform that allows you to find, match and hire thousands of different types of freelancers from all kinds of different backgrounds. So it could be website design, it could be dev development, it could be, um, um, from Excel to accounting to you name it, design.

• 26:45Speaker 01

  They're all on Upwork. I've used Upwork personally many times when it comes to specifically to design and website. And it's been awesome. The best thing about it is that it's all in one place. You can search by category, you can search by type, you can go in and look at what they charge, look at their whole portfolio. You get to see everything you'd want to see and want to know to feel confident that this person can do the job you want them to do. So rather than trying to put out a big ad and try to hire all these people, Upwork cuts all that time and says, hey, if you wanna get with this contractor and do exactly what you want, and they can perform these type of actions, here's where it is. And you can pay and deal with billing and invoicing all from the platform, which just makes things that much easier.

• 27:27Speaker 01

  So if you're like me, you probably need some help delegating something in your life. Well, if you need help, look no further than Upwork. It is totally free to create a platform and it is super easy to post a job. So if you haven't tried Upwork, you're really missing out. In fact, you're really just acting with one hand tied behind your back. So visit upwork.com right now and post your job totally for free. That is upwork.com to connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That is U P W O R K dot com, upwork.com. And now let's keep going. Well, I'm, I'm glad to hear that this transition you've had with, um, people pleasing, because there are people out there who really struggle with that.

• 28:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:10Speaker 01

  That idea of doing what somebody else wants them to do and tying their identity to, tying their self-worth

• 28:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:18Speaker 01

  Um, to somebody else. And I feel like you've,

• 28:22Speaker 01

  you're somebody who is an example of not necessarily that you've changed the whole dynamic, but you've grown into a different, different place. What's something that you've had to unlearn about the way you communicate now?

• 28:41Speaker 02

  Can I ask you the same question and see if it?

• 28:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:44Speaker 02

  Inspires me?

• 28:44Speaker 01

  Let's do it.

• 28:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. What's something you've had to unlearn in how you communicate?

• 28:50Speaker 01

  I've had to unlearn that.

• 28:56Speaker 01

  My opinion's not always the best opinion.

• 28:59Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 28:59Speaker 01

  And having to invite more voices into not only my decision making, but also into my into my life. I think it's real easy.

• 29:16Speaker 01

  And honestly, sometimes more comfortable, Tori, to sit at a table alone, like of your mind.

• 29:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:24Speaker 01

  Uh, because it's safer and I have learned

• 29:29Speaker 01

  that you have to fill seats at your table of like, who's gonna be, who's worth the seat in your life, you know, who's, who's worth that? And that affects how I communicate in the way that I try to keep things very tight. Before I tried to be a friend to everybody. And now I'm still friendly.

• 29:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:52Speaker 01

  But that doesn't mean we always have to be friends.

• 29:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:55Speaker 01

  Because you, like, keeping your friends few.

• 29:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:59Speaker 01

  In the same way, you could tie that to, I mean, how much of even in, and I know with, with our faith of the New Testament is Jesus going to be public and then what's he doing? He's going to withdraw. He's like, I'm out. They have to go find him. They have to go look for him.

• 30:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:18Speaker 01

  And so it's a lot of that of almost the more public you become, the greater the need there is to withdraw.

• 30:25Speaker 02

  You need to do the cooldown.

• 30:28Speaker 01

  There you go. That's exactly right. Yeah, that's, that's what that is. You need a lot of how to, how to cool down your life. By Tori Kelly.

• 30:36Speaker 02

  Is that my memoir?

• 30:37Speaker 01

  That's your next memoir. That's right.

• 30:40Speaker 02

  That actually, I'm glad I asked you that because that did, that did get me thinking.

• 30:44Speaker 01

  Good.

• 30:45Speaker 02

  For what I've had to unlearn. I almost feel like it's kind of the other side of that where I think I grew up feeling like my opinion didn't matter. And I think I've had to unlearn that and realize you do have something to say. You can offer something to the conversation. Because I think a lot of times I would be in a conversation and just, you know, kind of sit back and be a little intimidated like, okay, what I, what I have to say is not as good as what they're saying. So let me just sit back. And I did learn to become a good listener that way, which I think is very important.

• 31:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course.

• 31:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think there's this balance of like being a good listener, but also yeah, having to

• 31:34Speaker 02

  remove that lie that I've told myself a lot of my life, which is, you know, you, you don't have anything to offer the conversation. People just know you as a singer. So just sing your little songs. That's when they react, you know, they react when you sing. Not when you're just, you know, talking in a, in a normal setting.

• 31:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:55Speaker 02

  So I think I've had to unlearn that and, and realize like, oh, I, I do have something to say, even if it's just something small. It doesn't, I don't have to overpower the conversation. But, you know, just being more confident in the, the story that I've been given, things I've gone through, like no, no one can, no one can take away your story like that, or, or, or, you know, discredit things.

• 32:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, they can't invalidate your experience.

• 32:23Speaker 02

  Invalidate. Yeah, exactly. So I think having that, you know, and, and carrying that with me through different conversations has, has helped.

• 32:33Speaker 01

  All right. I, this is where my brain's going.

• 32:36Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 32:36Speaker 01

  You want to come with me?

• 32:37Speaker 02

  I'd love to.

• 32:39Speaker 01

  What you just described of here I am at the table and I know I have something to say.

• 32:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:46Speaker 01

  But I'm dealing with that, that mental block of now they know better than me. I probably shouldn't say anything. I'm just gonna be quiet.

• 32:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:55Speaker 01

  There's somebody who's listening who feels that and they go, how, how Tori, how did you get over that? So I want to break this down.

• 33:02Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 33:03Speaker 01

  We're gonna get sciencey for a second.

• 33:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:05Speaker 01

  On kind of a step by step approach that we could tell this person. So what I heard you one say is identify when you are reserving. Like you first acknowledge, like recognizing, becoming self-aware that I have something to say.

• 33:25Speaker 02

  I'm holding.

• 33:26Speaker 01

  And I'm holding it.

• 33:26Speaker 02

  Back. Yeah.

• 33:27Speaker 01

  Is to acknowledge that moment.

• 33:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:30Speaker 01

  Two is, how do you get over the, you called it the block? How'd you get over that?

• 33:37Speaker 02

  I think realizing

• 33:40Speaker 02

  that one, that everybody is equal. I feel, I feel like realizing that we're all, like, nobody is better than another person.

• 33:55Speaker 01

  So it's a mindset, kind of, you deserve to be in the room.

• 33:58Speaker 02

  Exactly. Yeah. Cause it's, it's interesting because as I'm thinking about it now, people would probably look at me as like someone above, you know, which is so funny. Cause I, yeah, I'm like, you know, coming in being like, I have nothing to say. But then like, wait, people are looking at me on stage, you know, I'm

• 34:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:17Speaker 02

  In very, I'm in a literal sense. I'm like,

• 34:20Speaker 01

  And you have a lot to say then.

• 34:21Speaker 02

  Elevated. Yeah, I have a lot to say there. Um, and that is kind of a safe space for me. I feel like where I feel comfortable, more comfortable sharing. But yeah, my, my challenge has always been more in the, you know, the, the normal conversational place. But, um, yeah, I think that's, that's one aspect of how I got over it was just realizing we all don't, like, no one really knows anything. People might know some things, but it's, I think one of the most powerful phrases we could say is just, I don't know.

• 34:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:55Speaker 02

  I think it's really freeing and even, even like allowing myself, like one, yes, having something to say and offer the conversation, but, but also being okay with not knowing. Like if someone asks me a question, you know, some, yeah, sometimes it's just, I don't know. What, what do you think about that? You know, and kind of, I think I just did that to you too. I don't, I don't have the answer yet. Will you?

• 35:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was good.

• 35:22Speaker 02

  Answer it first. So yeah, just kind of being, being more kind to myself.

• 35:29Speaker 02

  And yeah, realizing that we're all, we're all kind of in the same boat. The more I realize that and we're all trying to figure it out and we all have a lot more in common than we, than we, you know, don't have in common.

• 35:45Speaker 02

  I think that has been like my, my starting place.

• 35:47Speaker 01

  Of the

• 35:48Speaker 02

  Nice exhale moment.

• 35:50Speaker 01

  Okay. So we have, we have one, recognize when you're holding back.

• 35:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:56Speaker 01

  Two, to get over this mental block

• 36:01Speaker 01

  is what I hear you saying it's, one, there's a mindset of, hey, you deserve to be here.

• 36:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:06Speaker 01

  You wouldn't be here if you didn't.

• 36:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:09Speaker 01

  And you, like, how do you practically, physically do it? My guess is you have to choose to say something, even if it's small.

• 36:21Speaker 02

  Even if it's small.

• 36:22Speaker 01

  So it just maybe the smallest sentence, comment, like you have to say something out of your mouth.

• 36:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:30Speaker 01

  And then as a test balloon to see like, did I survive? Okay.

• 36:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:35Speaker 01

  Actually, yeah, the, the fear that I had that they weren't listening to me.

• 36:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:39Speaker 01

  No, they actually do care.

• 36:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:40Speaker 01

  And you can only, you know, make progress by proving it, proving it to yourself.

• 36:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:46Speaker 01

  Have you had to do that?

• 36:46Speaker 02

  Practice. Yeah. And it depends on, you know, of course, the, the group of people that you're in. You know, some people are more conversational and, and more interested, I guess. But, um, even just that, like, I, I think I've on one end, it's like, yeah, I've learned to offer something to the conversation with, without forcing it though. I will say that I don't think it's helpful for me if I'm just kind of, okay, let me just try to say something to like,

• 37:16Speaker 01

  Getting aggressive.

• 37:16Speaker 02

  Get over this fear. Yeah. Like I think sometimes you just have to wait for that right moment and you'll know like when, when it feels natural and, and organic.

• 37:25Speaker 01

  Before we keep going, I need to tell you about Cozy Earth. Now, if you've been a listener of the podcast, you know that I love Cozy Earth. Why? Because everything they do is top notch premium. I'm somebody that likes to wear not, not something that's overly, you know, fancy and also not too casual, somewhere in, in the middle. And Cozy Earth hits that for me every single time. Now, their clothing is not just amazing. It is also their pajamas. It is also their bamboo bedding, which keeps me cool at night. It is their towels. It is their house shoes, for goodness sake. My mom is crazy about their pajamas. Everything they do is good quality. And that is really hard to find, in my opinion, when you're asking for really comfortable clothes. So go to cozyearth.com. Whatever you get, it's not going to steer you wrong.

• 38:09Speaker 01

  Use code Jefferson for up to 20% off. cozyearth.com/jefferson. Use the code Jefferson for up to 20% off. And now let's keep going. We said start small.

• 38:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:19Speaker 01

  Yes. Starting small with that piece, being able to say just a little bit.

• 38:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:23Speaker 01

  Which I really like because I think that's for anything. It's just, you have to do something.

• 38:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:30Speaker 01

  If you always keep it in, you'll never be able to push that out. So it's, it's, you don't think that you have to come into the meeting or conversation with a beautiful, you know, picture book worth of thought. It's okay just to have something small.

• 38:45Speaker 02

  Yes. And that reminds me of the other thing I was gonna say. That is really unlocked a lot for me, which is asking questions, which I'm sure you, I mean, you're obviously really good at it because we're here. So one thing I have learned, if I don't, you know, I don't feel like I can offer anything to the conversation. I'm, you know, maybe, maybe I feel like they're talking about things that are like too smart for me or whatever it is. I can still be a part of the conversation by asking a question. Um, and even, even like just being a curious person in general has unlocked so much for me. Because I think a lot of what we're talking about is like,

• 39:30Speaker 02

  you know, how do I get over this shyness and, you know, say, like, say things that I, that I feel and, and be a part of the convo. But what we haven't really touched on is sometimes it's just being curious, you know, and that is your way of, or that opens the door to, you know, be a part of it. Um, I think that, that actually has really, really helped me get over any sort of shyness or feeling unworthy of being a part. Cause it's like, oh, I'm just, you know, tell me more about that. I'm really curious about. You know, your, your life, if someone's like sharing their story, I can kind of connect with them by just, that's where I think the becoming a good listener too. It's like asking questions, listening.

• 40:16Speaker 01

  It's a real skill.

• 40:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I've, I've, I've tried to work on that over the years, but yeah, just thinking of different questions I can ask people has, has helped me.

• 40:27Speaker 01

  Do you have like a go to question? Let me tell you mine.

• 40:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, tell me, tell me yours.

• 40:31Speaker 01

  My, my, I guess it's not really a question, actually. Um, if I'm thinking about it.

• 40:38Speaker 02

  Statement.

• 40:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is all usually, I like to say, tell me more. And I guess that's the shortened version of tell me more, please? Like, maybe that's, maybe that's a question.

• 40:48Speaker 02

  Can you tell me more?

• 40:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, can you tell me more? I think that's the abbreviated version, but.

• 40:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:53Speaker 01

  Um, same thing with say more.

• 40:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:56Speaker 01

  Or tell me more.

• 40:58Speaker 02

  Just drawing more out of them.

• 40:59Speaker 01

  Exactly. Do you have, you have one that you typically like to keep in your pocket?

• 41:03Speaker 02

  I like, oh, this is kind of a funny one. On tour, we've been, uh, we've been asking each other, what's your hot take? Like, do you have any hot takes?

• 41:13Speaker 01

  Oh, that's a good one.

• 41:15Speaker 02

  It can be something, I feel like you can kind of learn about a person too, if you ask them that, because it can be something that maybe they really love that everyone else hates, or they really hate that everyone else loves, or something that's really quirky and, and unique about them. So I've, I've been actually really liking that question lately, because I could see people trying to think of.

• 41:35Speaker 01

  That's a good one.

• 41:35Speaker 02

  You know?

• 41:36Speaker 01

  What's yours? I'm, I'm gonna be thinking of it.

• 41:38Speaker 02

  I, so an example, a kind of a silly one, uh, my hot take is, is what I start with. I don't believe that ketchup should be refrigerated, even though it says on the bottle. You can look at your face, mortified.

• 41:57Speaker 01

  I can, I can imagine, you like warm ketchup?

• 42:00Speaker 02

  Think about it, think about it. So when we go, when we go to, not restaurants, like fast food, right?

• 42:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:06Speaker 02

  You get ketchup in the packets.

• 42:08Speaker 01

  They're not.

• 42:08Speaker 02

  Are they cold?

• 42:09Speaker 01

  No, they're not.

• 42:10Speaker 02

  They're not.

• 42:11Speaker 01

  I didn't think about that. Or if they're like on the table?

• 42:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't want cold ketchup. It freaks me out.

• 42:16Speaker 01

  I thought ketchup was always refrigerated.

• 42:19Speaker 02

  I know, but I don't think the little packets are ever cold.

• 42:21Speaker 01

  No.

• 42:22Speaker 02

  And they, that tastes better to me. So even though it says refrigerate after opening, I think it's a lie because it's vinegar based, so it should be totally fine. Not in the fridge.

• 42:31Speaker 01

  That's a good one.

• 42:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, mustard too. I'm not as mad at cold mustard, but.

• 42:34Speaker 01

  I don't like mustard.

• 42:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:35Speaker 01

  Um, mustard and pickles.

• 42:37Speaker 02

  That's my, that's my hot take.

• 42:39Speaker 01

  That's a good hot take. Uh, my, let me see, let me think on the floor here.

• 42:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:43Speaker 01

  Uh, my hot take is if you keep your window shade down on the plane, you should be kicked off. Like, that's my, like, just.

• 42:54Speaker 02

  If you keep it down?

• 42:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, if you don't open your window on the plane, yeah, just.

• 42:59Speaker 02

  But what if it's not, what if I'm trying to sleep?

• 43:01Speaker 01

  That's fine, but just use a sleep mask, like I can't.

• 43:04Speaker 02

  Wow, okay, that's a good one.

• 43:06Speaker 01

  Because it's like I.

• 43:07Speaker 02

  That's like a pet peeve.

• 43:08Speaker 01

  It, yeah, that's my, I don't know, I don't think I've learned a difference between a pet peeve and a hot take.

• 43:12Speaker 02

  Maybe it's the same, actually.

• 43:15Speaker 01

  Maybe. Obviously, don't kick them off, of course, but.

• 43:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:18Speaker 01

  Mine is like, we're thou, you're flying in the air, thousands of feet. You don't even want to look, like, you can't even.

• 43:27Speaker 02

  It's a pretty wild experience.

• 43:27Speaker 01

  How bo, how bored do you have to be just to go, you know what, I'm, I'm a human with legs, but you know what? I'm flying through the air at hundreds of miles per hour.

• 43:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:38Speaker 01

  Not even gonna lift my finger to lick out this window.

• 43:41Speaker 02

  My pushback on that.

• 43:43Speaker 01

  Let's hear it.

• 43:43Speaker 02

  Would be if it's an international flight.

• 43:46Speaker 01

  Oh, fair.

• 43:47Speaker 02

  The time zones, it's supposed to be nighttime, but we're flying through.

• 43:53Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 43:53Speaker 02

  Bright.

• 43:54Speaker 01

  I think that's, that is totally valid.

• 43:57Speaker 02

  Mad at you.

• 43:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, which if, if you're trying to sleep, I get that, absolutely. Or if the sun's like beaming in and it's super hot.

• 44:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:05Speaker 01

  Go for it.

• 44:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, but at least, you're saying at least a peak, yeah.

• 44:08Speaker 01

  Once, to be like.

• 44:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:10Speaker 01

  This is what it looks like. And then close it, and that's fine. I just need also.

• 44:14Speaker 02

  Just something.

• 44:14Speaker 01

  Just a little something to go, oh, am I, am I appreciative of this modern machine that I'm in?

• 44:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, no one is grateful for airplanes.

• 44:23Speaker 01

  No, it's true.

• 44:24Speaker 02

  It is crazy when you think about, we're up in the sky on seats, just floating, and then we end up in another place.

• 44:31Speaker 01

  You were sitting.

• 44:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:33Speaker 01

  Getting a mostly terrible snack, but you are going through the air.

• 44:39Speaker 02

  It's wild.

• 44:40Speaker 01

  That's my pet peeve slash.

• 44:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, honestly, what, what's your pet peeve is also kind of a good icebreaker. I, I've played this game before at, it's a good one at, uh, like restaurants and stuff, if you're with, if you're meeting new people, maybe. And we've, we've said, uh, I think, I'm trying to think if my husband heard this somewhere, I might have stolen it from him, but three loves and three hates.

• 45:05Speaker 01

  Oh, that's also a good one.

• 45:06Speaker 02

  Everybody goes around and, and shares theirs, and it can be anything from, like, you could, you could share that as a hate, oh, I hate when people do this. It could be lighthearted, but most of the time you'll find people, you know, getting pretty deep, and you could, you can learn a lot about a person by what they say.

• 45:22Speaker 01

  Another one that I heard was, um, to ask everybody to show their last, like, seven items ordered on Amazon.

• 45:32Speaker 02

  Oh, my gosh, that's so good.

• 45:34Speaker 01

  To see what everybody's like ordered.

• 45:37Speaker 02

  Mine's all baby things, I'm sure.

• 45:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, oh, yeah, no doubt, no doubt. I think mine was like a gardening tool, and like a book.

• 45:46Speaker 02

  Because it feels so personal.

• 45:47Speaker 01

  I know, it's like, you know, like, yeah, mine was like a new tube of toothpaste, like, you don't need to know what kind of toothpaste I use.

• 45:53Speaker 02

  We're definitely, yeah, we're doing that on the way back.

• 45:55Speaker 01

  Definitely gonna add this.

• 45:56Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 45:57Speaker 01

  Close, are starting to delete her, her Amazon, or I can already tell.

• 46:01Speaker 02

  Can you delete?

• 46:01Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 46:02Speaker 02

  Delete history of Amazon.

• 46:03Speaker 01

  She's probably trying, once she can let us know. Um, I think using icebreakers.

• 46:10Speaker 01

  What's like the deeper message there? The deeper message is find a way to talk about something lighthearted.

• 46:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:15Speaker 01

  Something, uh, something not serious.

• 46:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:18Speaker 01

  Because I know I'm, we're about to finish up the, our, our sciency step process.

• 46:24Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 46:25Speaker 01

  Is knowing the, what you're about to share doesn't have to be something huge or heavy.

• 46:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:31Speaker 01

  It can be something light, and it can be simple as tell me more.

• 46:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:37Speaker 01

  Or it's, it could be something that you're wanting to bring up to the conversation more as an icebreaker.

• 46:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:44Speaker 01

  Just for something of getting a little bit of their personality.

• 46:47Speaker 02

  For sure. Yeah, I think I've, I've learned to, just to add kind of on top of that, I've, I've learned to not sort of, um, be a, I guess, let me, let me rephrase this. I've, I've learned to sort of read whatever room that I'm in. I think I've gotten a little better at, you know, maybe, okay, when I walk into this room, it seems like there's a lot of big personalities, you know, I'm not gonna try to like force.

• 47:19Speaker 01

  I'll do them.

• 47:20Speaker 02

  Stuff, okay, they're, you know, they got the topics, I'm kind of chiming in whenever, and then if I'm in another room, or maybe I am actually the more outgoing one, which is crazy, because I feel like I'm very.

• 47:32Speaker 01

  You crank it up.

• 47:32Speaker 02

  Very shy, yeah, but then I can, you know, if it seems quiet or maybe a little awkward, that's when I can, you know, bring up one of these questions, or just, yeah, I think questions are just so powerful, because I think it, it then gets other people to start talking, and then, you know, if you, yeah, if you can't think of anything to say, I think really just being curious is, is the best, is the best move.

• 47:57Speaker 01

  I think you just finished out our, our process. One, you can tell me how, if this is Tori Kelly approved. One, to recognize when you're holding it in, when you're reserving something that you, you feel like you need to say.

• 48:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:11Speaker 01

  Uh, second is when you are up against that mental block, have the mindset of you deserve to be there.

• 48:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:18Speaker 01

  And choose to do something. It, it can start small, so start small.

• 48:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:23Speaker 01

  What's a three? What's a one? We can start small. Be curious and ask, ask an easy question.

• 48:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, and a fun little sidebar can be, what's your hot take?

• 48:33Speaker 01

  There we go, something, yeah. What's your, what's your, what's your hot take? What's your feeling on refrigerating condiments, or, or not, something, something like that.

• 48:44Speaker 02

  So specific.

• 48:44Speaker 01

  I know, I know. I'm, I'm probably, even after our episode, I'm gonna be thinking of like eight other hot takes, and like, I really need to have one at the ready.

• 48:53Speaker 02

  It's fun, yeah, it's fun. I keep adding, I keep adding to mine. Someone said, uh, because I was, I like went on Instagram and just asked people.

• 49:02Speaker 01

  That's a good.

• 49:03Speaker 02

  To get, to get some good ones. One really good one I read was red velvet is just chocolate but dyed red. And I was like, I don't know if that, that's more just a fun fact.

• 49:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know. I feel like that hurt my, I feel like that hurts my feelings. I don't know about that.

• 49:19Speaker 02

  Are you a red velvet guy?

• 49:20Speaker 01

  I like red velvet. I think, I like it for the cheese, cream cheese.

• 49:24Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah, but next time you try it, I don't think, you won't be able to look at it the same. It's literally just chocolate.

• 49:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I definitely have seen some of those on social media where it's, they, they like totally bust your bubble on something, and it's.

• 49:40Speaker 02

  I think that's one of those things, yeah.

• 49:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:42Speaker 02

  So sorry to the red velvet lovers out there.

• 49:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, sorry. Yeah, I feel like it's worth an apology, probably. There's somebody eating the red velvet cake, piece of cake right now.

• 49:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, just throwing away the, the albums right now. That's how mad they are. You know, between you and, um, your husband, remind me of your husband's name.

• 50:04Speaker 02

  Andre.

• 50:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, Andre. When you all, you communicate, how, how have you improved the way you communicate?

• 50:13Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 50:15Speaker 02

  Well, we've been together for 11 years.

• 50:19Speaker 01

  That helps.

• 50:20Speaker 02

  Married for eight. Yeah, so you learn a lot along the way. I think some of it is just knowing him more now. That, you know, just naturally, I think we've gotten better, but also. I gotta give him credit, man. Even some of the stuff that I'm saying about like asking questions and things like that. I really feel like I've gotten some of that from him. I think I've, I've watched him in, in different settings and he's such a, he's a great communicator, honestly. I think that's, he's gonna love this whole conversation because he really cares. Yeah, shout out to Andre. He really cares about connecting with people and. You know, he's great at, like, he's done speaking and.

• 51:05Speaker 02

  He has been in a lot of different settings and different communities where. You know, he can get pretty deep pretty quickly.

• 51:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I think I've, I think I've gotten some of that from him, I think. I think we both, I'm sure he's gotten some things from me too.

• 51:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, probably just osmosis, you know, just being around each other. Have y'all found?

• 51:29Speaker 01

  Because we've been married 15 years.

• 51:31Speaker 02

  Nice.

• 51:31Speaker 01

  And I can tell you in that amount of time, you don't survive that amount of time without. Being really good at handling conflict between.

• 51:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:44Speaker 01

  So have y'all, is there like a, a method or a system on how y'all specifically handle conflict?

• 51:52Speaker 02

  I think we both can get, we're both pretty passionate people, so we can get pretty. Heated quickly, we've, we've realized. I think we both kind of were pretty fiery, but it's because we care. And I used to get freaked out by any sort of arguing because in my house, that just wasn't a thing. I came from more of like, we don't, you know, we don't argue, it's all behind closed doors. So then when, you know, and his family's actually the opposite. It's like everyone's like loud and just, yeah.

• 52:26Speaker 02

  You know, an argument isn't even the end of the world in his family. It's like, we're just, we're just talking.

• 52:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:32Speaker 02

  So that was interesting coming into the marriage with that, but I quickly learned to not be afraid of conflict. Because I, and I actually learned to not, obviously not love it, but. See the, the good in it and realize. I kind of changed my perspective on it because I realized I would rather argue about this and. And get through to the other side because it actually shows that we care. If you didn't wanna, if there was something I cared about and you actually just didn't wanna argue with me. About it or try to understand where I'm coming from, that would actually scare me more because that's. Now you're being complacent and I think that's the scariest thing. Complacent is the word, right?

• 53:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so because he's not, he's not in it with you.

• 53:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. I think that's complacency is, I think, scarier than like fighting in some ways.

• 53:28Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 53:29Speaker 02

  For us at least.

• 53:30Speaker 01

  Oh, I, I, it's the same for us. I mean, I think.

• 53:35Speaker 01

  You can, in all kinds of like marriage advice world, the phrase they use is lean in, you know, whenever. If there's conflict.

• 53:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:45Speaker 01

  And let's say Andre was like, actually, yeah, okay, whatever. And not wanting to, that would.

• 53:51Speaker 02

  You win, whatever.

• 53:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, it would probably make you fight even harder because you're wanting that.

• 53:56Speaker 02

  I just, I just crave understanding to on both ends. Like I want to understand where you're coming from. Why, why did you say the thing that you just said? Like what, what's the heart of the issue here? And, you know, and then on the, on the flip side, I also want to feel understood. I want to be understood by. By other people. Like I really crave that. So I think, uh, I think we've learned to tone down the, the firiness though. And, and there's been times too where we have this little thing where like, you know, maybe there's like an argument kind of. Bubbling or we can tell we're like annoyed with each other and we'll just be like, okay, wanna rain check this? Okay.

• 54:37Speaker 02

  And then we're able to just like, we know, because then it's acknowledging like, okay, we're not just gonna sweep this under the rug. But we're, we're definitely gonna talk about it later, but now is not the time.

• 54:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:47Speaker 02

  Like there's other things happening. Let's, let's rain check. I care about how you feel.

• 54:51Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 54:52Speaker 02

  But let's rain check this. I think that's helped a lot.

• 54:54Speaker 01

  Well, what you just said was, uh, that, that's not a small thing at all.

• 55:01Speaker 01

  Like, uh, rain check, timeout, that is not only important, it is necessary.

• 55:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:09Speaker 01

  And what you added on to that was, we're gonna be okay. Like, I, I love you.

• 55:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:15Speaker 01

  That little component.

• 55:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:17Speaker 01

  I think is really important because it's easy to go, you know, I just timeout and you leave. And that can create a lot of anxiety and stress.

• 55:27Speaker 02

  And it's like, wait.

• 55:28Speaker 01

  Are we good? Are we okay?

• 55:30Speaker 02

  Good, yeah.

• 55:30Speaker 01

  And, but if you just. Like there are times when transparently, Sierra and I, we know that we're in a major discussion and also. It typically happens at night, right? And you're tired, you're tired. We've had long, and yeah, we got kids and we got, geez, we got kids that like, we're, we're, we're talking.

• 55:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:54Speaker 01

  And we love each other, but yeah, we're, we're just starting to. Go, um, in a circle or, but being tired is really bad. So it's like at night, you kind of have the midnight madness and, um. It's a, it's, it's because I think it for a lot of parents, just like kids, it's, it's our witching hour too, you know, we're tired. And so if it's like, hey, look, let's just put this in, we're gonna talk about this tomorrow.

• 56:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:21Speaker 01

  What I've learned is I cannot just roll over and, because I could, I could just roll over and be out.

• 56:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:30Speaker 01

  There has to be some, hey, we're gonna be okay.

• 56:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:33Speaker 01

  We're gonna get through it.

• 56:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:34Speaker 01

  It's not, you know, there has to be that little something.

• 56:37Speaker 02

  Too, if, if it's not talked about. Yeah, and I can't, I mean, I have only one little baby. You have, you said you have.

• 56:44Speaker 01

  I have two.

• 56:46Speaker 02

  How is that, like, how do you guys stay connected and find ways to like check in with each other with now? Your kids are slightly older and they have their own lives. Like, how do you guys? I need all the advice.

• 56:59Speaker 01

  All the advice, yeah.

• 57:00Speaker 02

  Get into this parenting thing.

• 57:01Speaker 01

  We truly do. So we, we have, um, what we call check-ins and check-outs. So in the mornings, it's every morning, uh, we, we check in.

• 57:10Speaker 02

  It's like a hotel.

• 57:10Speaker 01

  Even for like, yeah, really, because you got to.

• 57:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:14Speaker 01

  And so we have a, it might be even five minutes to read. So some portion of that, we're talking about what we have during the day. Because that's what your brain's thinking first. And that's, he's like, get out what your schedule is for both of you. Because it's like, okay, and go, team, team break. Uh, but also of just how are you feeling about the day? What do you, maybe something you, we, we read earlier in that morning that's, you know, been working on us. And then, um, it could be as easy, simple as two, three, five minutes.

• 57:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:44Speaker 01

  The bigger ones are check-outs. That's, you know, how did the day, how did the day go?

• 57:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:51Speaker 01

  It might be, you know.

• 57:52Speaker 02

  The rain check that we had earlier.

• 57:54Speaker 01

  Exactly. But it, but what you'll find as, as your kid gets older, just the more. You will. Like now we'll have arguments about things our child did. Like, so it's, if, if I have a different perspective on something he didn't, it's not that big of a deal. And she feels like it's a really big deal or vice versa.

• 58:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:18Speaker 01

  And so now the problem is not between us.

• 58:20Speaker 02

  Interesting. It's how you're raising this kid.

• 58:22Speaker 01

  Exactly. And so that's, that's a lot of the conversation of, because you both want what's best. You both.

• 58:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:28Speaker 01

  Love, um, you know, it just immensely. So having those check-outs of. I think we typically also try and run it through like, just how are we, how do we? How did we feel about the day? What did we struggle with about the day? So if there were like any thoughts or moments that we really had.

• 58:47Speaker 01

  And then kind of the same thing of what's been, what God's been working on our heart and what we felt like we. Were gonna do and work better and try to be encouraging.

• 58:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:56Speaker 01

  And put on the plate if we know something's, something's brewing, like, you know, we're gonna have to have a major thing. So that's, that's helped us a lot.

• 59:04Speaker 02

  I'm gonna steal that, I think. Yeah. That's really good.

• 59:07Speaker 01

  Buckle up, Andre. That's all I gotta say, man.

• 59:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, get ready. No, I think we kind of do the schedule thing, like we're, we wake, we don't call it check-in and check-out. But I'm gonna steal that because it's great. Yeah, we, I think we naturally have been sort of like, all right, what do you? Or, or we've said like, what are your hopes for today? Like, what's your?

• 59:28Speaker 01

  What's your hope for today?

• 59:28Speaker 02

  What are your ideals? Because, and that's actually helped me because I am, I can have crazy ideals of what, you know. What I want things to look like. And it helps me to verbalize them because then it's like. It just gets it out of my body and then if it doesn't happen, it's fine. But if I hold on to, you know, whatever ideals I have for you. Then if you don't do that, I'm like, wait, the day's all, all scrambled now.

• 59:53Speaker 01

  The unvoiced expectation.

• 59:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. Expectations, yeah. It's, so we've, we've actually used that word too, like what are your expectations for today? And then it, it just kind of gets it out there. If it doesn't happen, then it's, then it's cool.

• 1:00:06Speaker 02

  So I love the check-in, check-out thing. That's really cool.

• 1:00:08Speaker 01

  I do think that if you only talk about schedule. You really talk about nothing. You know, you really don't get to.

• 1:00:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:18Speaker 01

  It's not helping you know the person.

• 1:00:20Speaker 02

  You gotta get to the emotion.

• 1:00:22Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:00:23Speaker 02

  How you feeling?

• 1:00:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, and one thing my wife said once that I still always love is I was kind of down about a conversation that we'd had and she said, well, either way, it's good. In other words, every time, even with a difficult conversation, she got to know and learn more about how I was thinking and I got to learn more of like this person that even though we've been together and y'all have been together, what, 11 years?

• 1:00:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:00:51Speaker 01

  There's still a lot you don't know about each other.

• 1:00:53Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 1:00:54Speaker 01

  And you don't, you don't get to know that person better.

• 1:00:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:59Speaker 01

  The person that you say, you know, you love by just talking about the schedule.

• 1:01:03Speaker 02

  Totally. Yeah, and it's crazy how we can forget to check in. It's like you're just kind of, you're doing life with this person.

• 1:01:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:09Speaker 02

  You know, and then kids start getting, I mean, I'm, I'm so new, so I can't even imagine, but I.

• 1:01:14Speaker 01

  It's still hard. Seven, seven months is still hard. That's like.

• 1:01:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, we have like this new project that we're like pouring into.

• 1:01:20Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, and it never stops.

• 1:01:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:22Speaker 01

  It's not like you can set it aside and be like, oh, we'll try again next month.

• 1:01:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, let's take a break.

• 1:01:27Speaker 01

  It's constant.

• 1:01:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, it just made me think of something my, my friend texts me often that I, I love that she does this. She'll, she'll just text, how's your heart? And I love that because it's not, how are you doing? Which, you know, you could answer that in so many different ways, but if you say, how's your heart? It kind of forces you to get to the.

• 1:01:51Speaker 01

  Oh, I love that.

• 1:01:51Speaker 02

  Emotion, the, what's really underneath. And it's, it's making me think of that because I, I feel like it's making me want to like go text my husband.

• 1:02:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's really good. Yeah, how's your heart? Yeah.

• 1:02:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it's just, it feels.

• 1:02:04Speaker 01

  That's really sweet.

• 1:02:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, I feel, it feels good to, on both sides of that, I feel, it feels good to be.

• 1:02:11Speaker 01

  I'm gonna copy that. I like that.

• 1:02:13Speaker 02

  I'll take the check in thing.

• 1:02:14Speaker 01

  I'll take the how's your heart.

• 1:02:15Speaker 02

  Shout out to my friend Naomi. She's the one.

• 1:02:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, Naomi, that's a wonderful, how's your heart?

• 1:02:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, she's great.

• 1:02:19Speaker 01

  We, we like to also ask, what's coming up? Like, what's, what's coming up for you? Instead of a, what's wrong? What's going on?

• 1:02:27Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:02:27Speaker 01

  What's the matter with you? What's coming up?

• 1:02:29Speaker 02

  I like that.

• 1:02:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, because there's something coming up.

• 1:02:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:32Speaker 01

  You know, for the thing. What's your number one red flag?

• 1:02:38Speaker 02

  Well, are we talking?

• 1:02:40Speaker 01

  Let's talk people, like in terms of, maybe it's personality or, because I don't want to be specific with that. Like, you know what my red flag is?

• 1:02:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:48Speaker 01

  My friend Naomi. You know what I mean? Like, I'm like.

• 1:02:51Speaker 02

  Naomi asking me how my heart is.

• 1:02:53Speaker 01

  Exactly, yeah, that's a red flag.

• 1:02:54Speaker 02

  Because when I think red flag, I think like romantic relationship, but you're saying red flag in general.

• 1:03:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay, let me, then let me set the stage. So, okay. Uh, let's put it in a more commercial, corporate kind of meeting context.

• 1:03:10Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:03:10Speaker 01

  Where there are lots of other voices in the room, people wanting you to do things, getting asked for you to be pulled in on things.

• 1:03:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, what's, what's your number one red flag?

• 1:03:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, okay, that, that kind of sets it up differently, I think. Hmm, I probably have a few red flags. I feel like I'm pretty observant.

• 1:03:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, because you said you read the room really well and the way you described it is exactly right of like being able to. It's, it's like a, a soundboard, right?

• 1:03:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:40Speaker 01

  You're starting to.

• 1:03:42Speaker 02

  I think I, I never thought of it as a red flag, but I think I kind of tense up or have my eye on someone who kind of carries this kind of know it all energy.

• 1:03:56Speaker 01

  Like the cockiness kind of, yeah.

• 1:03:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, or like if, if it seems like they always, it's funny, because we were talking about adding to the conversation. I think if there's somebody who's kind of overpowering a conversation or maybe, you know, you ask them something and it seems like they always have like an answer ready or. Yeah, just, I guess, yeah, someone who isn't willing to say that they don't know, especially in my industry, because what, what I do, I was just talking about this today. It's like, we're not, I'm not curing cancer. You know, I'm a musician. It's like, this would be fun. This is very, this is very light.

• 1:04:41Speaker 02

  And I think so much of, of my industry can feel like it's so chaotic and we're all stressed.

• 1:04:47Speaker 01

  Trying to make it more serious than it is.

• 1:04:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I'm like, we're making music. I actually stole that quote from Max Martin, incredible legendary producer. So like, if he's saying this, you know, we should, we should take what he's saying seriously, but. Yeah, so I think with that in mind, I think when someone, especially in my, in my field is just, you know, seems to like act like they know how it works, because it's just not true. No one knows how this music thing works.

• 1:05:16Speaker 01

  Number one red flag for Tori Kelly is a know it all.

• 1:05:18Speaker 02

  A know it all.

• 1:05:19Speaker 01

  I think that's good. That's good. Well, let me just remind you, I don't really know him very much, Tori.

• 1:05:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:24Speaker 01

  I just need to tell you, I don't, I don't know very many things. I really, I know a few.

• 1:05:28Speaker 02

  When you come around me, just act like you don't know anything.

• 1:05:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:31Speaker 02

  And then we'll be friends.

• 1:05:32Speaker 01

  That, there you go. I mean, and I, I think that's, I think it's also healthy.

• 1:05:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:37Speaker 01

  Um, what we do is all, if I need to kind of get my mind in that space, because I think that's healthy to be like, hey, you said we're not curing cancer here, mine's.

• 1:05:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:47Speaker 01

  I may, I may have started making videos in my car. Like, that's, that's.

• 1:05:51Speaker 02

  It's freeing, right?

• 1:05:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, all of a sudden, it's like.

• 1:05:53Speaker 02

  What are we even doing?

• 1:05:54Speaker 01

  Why am I taking this so seriously? I need to, I need to take it, take it down a notch, but. Um, Tori, I have thoroughly enjoyed the time and the conversation. I'm so proud of, of the growing family that you and Andre have and that cannot be easy being and doing all the things that you were being and doing. And I can promise you that we will be losing our voice probably tonight at, at the concerts. We're looking forward to the show. Thank you so much for coming on.

• 1:06:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, thanks for having me. This is so great.

• 1:06:26Speaker 03

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