“MND Took Everything” Matt Nable on Grief, Depression & What Really Matters

In the end, Matt Nable wished his brother would give in. Motor neurone disease had taken everything, except his brother’s will to live. 💌 To join our journaling club, with 9,000+ others, subscribe to my imperfect email - https://www.theimperfects.com.au/sign-up-to-our-newsletter/ Joining us in the studio today is writer, actor, boxer, and former rugby league player, Matt Nable. Recognisable for playing infamous tough guys on screen (Arrow, Underbelly, The Dry), Matt’s experience of loss and mental ill health has starkly redefined what he believes it is to ‘be a man’. Using the analogy of a ‘double edged sword’, Matt explains his experience with bipolar and hypomania, and how those periods have lead to the best, and worst, decisions of his life. Matt is incredibly generous in sharing his experience of biological melancholia depression, and explores with Josh just how quickly everything can seem to unravel. Matt speaks about the immense grief he carries for his brother who passed away MND, and how he was able to move through this grief to find purpose and compassion. *Content Warning: today's episode includes a discussion about psilocybin. In Australia, psilocybin is a controlled substance. Outside of authorised clinical settings, its use, possession and supply are illegal. This episode is not medical advice, and we're not encouraging or endorsing illegal drug use. Psilocybin can carry serious risks, particularly when taken without professional screening and supervision. Our guest's experience is their own and won't be typical of everyone's. This episode also mentions suicide. If you're struggling with grief or your mental health, please speak with your GP or a mental health professional. 🚨If you, or someone you know, are experiencing suicidal thoughts call lifeline on 13 11 14. In an emergency, call 000. Chapters 00:00:00 – TRAILER 00:02:48 – Childhood shapes who we are 00:03:40 – What does it really mean to be tough? 00:07:38 – Why Matt doesn’t think he is a tough man 00:09:21 – Redefining Masculinity, and Rejecting the Manosphere 00:12:00 – Letting Go of Ego 00:13:34 – Losing his brother to MND 00:20:40 – A Psilocybin Retreat for Grief: Matt’s Experience 00:23:08 – Meeting his younger self 00:24:09 – Reaching Acceptance 00:28:34 – Figuring out what really matters 00:35:12 – A brother’s love: Hugh & Josh reflect 00:38:55 – Finding humour in grief 00:40:34 – A Parent’s Grief vs a Sibling’s Grief 00:41:30 – The Meaning of Matt’s Tattoos 00:42:10 – Bipolar II + Melancholic Depression Diagnosis 00:43:46 – Hypomania: The Double-Edged Sword 00:46:52 – Matt’s rise to fame 00:51:10 – Bipolar vs Depression: The Crash, Exhaustion + Regret 00:52:34 – Sitting with someone in the dark 00:54:08 – The Quicksand of Men’s Mental Health 00:56:02 – Standing on the Edge: Josh’s Story 00:58:01 – Finding Joy in the Small Moments 01:01:29 – Writing as an Anchor Point 01:07:29 – Why men need to be vulnerable 01:07:59 – Journaling Club “How would you like to be remembered?” Some other great resources are below Black Dog Institute - https://www.blackdoginstitute.org.au Beyond Blue - https://www.beyondblue.org.au 📚Things to read Mire, by Matt Nable - https://bit.ly/4hYglT0 Other books by Matt Nable - https://bit.ly/4dI1uut 📺 Things to watch The Final Winter - https://bit.ly/4s3EYSC Things to donate to Fight MND - https://fightmnd.org.au 🩷To host your own Vulnerabilitea House, purchase here - theimperfects.com.au/shop 🩵To purchase our journal (or your novel) My Imperfect Life, click here - theimperfects.com.au/shop 🩵To join our subscriber community, A Little More Imperfects, follow this link - patreon.com/theimperfects 🩷 AND you can subscribe to A Little More Imperfects through Apple Podcasts http://apple.co/theimperfects The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14. Trailer footage sourced from Mr Inbetween.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The way he passed away, you wouldn't wish on anyone. With motor neurone disease, the only thing that he could move in the end were his eyebrows. So it took everything. That experience shapes a perspective in life that otherwise I don't think I would ever have.

• 0:21Speaker 01

  For years, Matt Nable has played the tough guy on our screens.

• 0:24Speaker 00

  Where's my fucking money? I got brought up in a very physical environment. My father was in the army.

• 0:31Speaker 01

  My dad studied accountancy, so I absolutely understand where you're coming from.

• 0:36Speaker 00

  But personally speaking, I wouldn't categorize myself as a tough man. I'm a man who's hugely flawed. You know, I'm a son, brother, a friend, a partner, a father. And beyond those things, for me, it's all fluff.

• 0:51Speaker 01

  For Matt, real toughness is confronting his own struggles.

• 0:54Speaker 00

  Masculinity for me is being vulnerable. You know, I've had some really bad bouts of depression, which I feel ironically really grateful for. One day I saw this boy in a school uniform, a little brown haired boy. And he turned around, he was crying, it was me.

• 1:12Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 1:13Speaker 00

  So he ran to me and I helped him.

• 1:17Speaker 02

  We've been doing this podcast for a long time, we've chatted to a lot of people. I don't think he's moved me like that.

• 1:27Speaker 01

  Well, lock up your Oscars. We've got an actor in here and a good one.

• 1:35Speaker 00

  I think they're safe, the Oscars are safe.

• 1:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, don't speak too soon, don't speak too soon. You never know, Matt.

• 1:42Speaker 00

  Nah, that's true.

• 1:44Speaker 02

  We're joined by Matt Nable. Now, I'm not sure I've ever met anyone with a CV quite like yours before. You truly are one of one.

• 1:56Speaker 02

  Rugby league player, boxer, novelist.

• 2:02Speaker 02

  I can see how that transition happens. Screenwriter, actor, director. But as unique as your CV is, so too is the stories you've accumulated over your life. The things that you are so uniquely positioned to talk about today. Masculinity, toughness, bipolar, hitting rock bottom, the devastating impact of MND, grief, dementia, love, Robert De Niro.

• 2:33Speaker 01

  I feel like Hugh's just making it really easy to do the hashtags for this episode.

• 2:38Speaker 00

  There's a lot going on.

• 2:40Speaker 02

  What do you feel like in your life has had the most profound impact on who you are right now?

• 2:49Speaker 00

  My family, you know.

• 2:52Speaker 00

  We're a very close sort of mob. My father was in the army and so every two years we moved. There were five of us, five kids, my mum and dad, and they were young parents. I think my mum had, she had five kids under the age of seven when she was 27. So it was a different era. And so dad was a soldier and every two years we picked up and moved. And so we as siblings had each other. And that was a big part in how we've evolved as people, as parents, as fathers, as friends and sons.

• 3:33Speaker 00

  And that early period of my life has really sort of carved out who I am.

• 3:40Speaker 02

  So you play rugby league at the top level, very successful boxer. There are things that we look at and go, well, this is a tough guy. Do you feel like a tough person? And if so, what is it that do you think has made you tough?

• 3:55Speaker 00

  You know, they're physical things, you know. So I got brought up in a very physical environment. My father was, he was the head, what they call physical training instructor in the army. So he was a very well respected man. He was the top non-commissioned officer. So that's a really high respected mantle and position.

• 4:21Speaker 01

  My dad studied accountancy, so I absolutely understand where you're coming from.

• 4:26Speaker 00

  So we, and there were, look, five of us, two boys, my sister, poor sister in the middle, and then two boys. My father was a really handy professional fighter, really good. He didn't force it upon us. I mean, we just grew up in gymnasiums and were tumbling and, you know, watching him work. And so we had boxing gloves on at a very, very early age. And I think as young, young boys, particularly young boys, you're just trying to gain the approval of such a sharp outline, such a strong sort of person to aspire to. So we got involved in boxing and rugby league.

• 5:09Speaker 00

  And those pursuits, you need a physical toughness, you know. But personally speaking, along with that, you know, you had to be mentally tough as well. So when I played rugby league, I remember Jack Gibson, who was a famous coach, you know, it came to talk to us when I was a young fella in some rugby league camp. And he said, you've got to be very careful how you use that word and what tough is and what it is. And he said, when I was a young fella, we were all Bondi lifesavers. And he said, there was a huge surf one day and there were a young family caught out the back. And he said, there was a guy who was a lifesaver with us who also played for eastern suburbs.

• 5:50Speaker 00

  And he said, who we regarded as soft and not tough and not courageous. And he said, not one of us were courageous or gutsy enough to go out and save those people. He said, but that guy, he went out and saved their lives. So the lesson was toughness and courage is relative in the sense, if you've trained to do something your whole life, then the level of courage and toughness that it takes to compete is diminished by how good you are at it. And I remember talking to a, I did a show called Gallipoli, talking to a major there. And he was a historian and he said, what true courage and what true bravery is,

• 6:32Speaker 00

  is what these 16 year old kids and 15 year old kids did at Gallipoli. They had no training and they were whistled out to go out of the trenches, not thinking they would hurt their knee or break their arm, that they were most likely going to die. That's courage. That's what toughness is, you know, not, you know, in the realm of sport. If you train and you're proficient at something, then like I said, the level of courage that it takes to sort of do that is diminished by just how long you've been doing it. So tough is, you know, I can look at people and go, jeez, he's tough. Like he's courageous, he's tough on the field or in boxing. But in life, it's really, really different. So do I see myself as tough?

• 7:15Speaker 00

  I see myself as, like, I would cry every day. You know, at least once a day I'll have a cry. It could be about anything and that actually makes me feel good. So, you know, people would, you know, look at that traditionally speaking and say, well, that's not tough. That's not, and I honestly don't care. And I don't look at myself or judge myself on, you know, am I tough or am I courageous? Or, you know, I'm beyond all that. And look, to be honest, growing up, it was such a big thing, you know, to be recognized that way. That did matter when I was younger.

• 7:53Speaker 00

  But no, I, you know, I'd see myself as a hugely empathetic person. And I look at the world a little differently, but through the prism of, you know, I've had some really bad bouts of depression and I'm over this thing bipolar too. So, which I feel, you know, ironically really grateful for.

• 8:18Speaker 00

  But that's also made me, and I wouldn't categorize myself as a tough man. You know, I'm a man who's hugely flawed.

• 8:31Speaker 00

  And he's worked really, really hard to get where he's now at.

• 8:35Speaker 01

  Do you think it's tricky? Cause I'm thinking about my own life and the question of toughness and courage. And I feel like I've often found myself as I was growing up, trying to work out who I was as a person and as a man. And found myself lacking in areas of toughness and courage and therefore seeing myself as lacking. It took me to get a stronger sense of who I am as a person to be okay with that. The way you talk about vulnerability, do you think it's possible to get there without having a strong sense of self?

• 9:09Speaker 00

  I just, I think it comes down to life experience, you know. And I think something innately as well, you're sort of born with. Like I was a bit of a melancholic kid at different stages and

• 9:21Speaker 00

  and I think that I was sort of born that way, you know. And I think vulnerability comes in many forms and people show it in different ways. And in fact, allow themselves to be vulnerable in certain situations with certain groups of people.

• 9:38Speaker 00

  I just think it's, it's hard when you haven't had life experiences where you've, in a situation where you've got to reflect, you know. And I think that, you know, reflection and growth builds vulnerability. I think, you know, you get to a point in life where it gets so hard at different stages. You're like, you know, I've just got to talk about this or, you know, I need, I need someone. I need someone to listen to what I'm feeling. And for me, it's helped. And, you know, these dickheads that are over in the manosphere and those morons, you know, that do nothing for men in general, who are shameful. No time for those people whatsoever.

• 10:20Speaker 00

  They don't represent masculine men whatsoever, not one bit. Masculinity for me is being vulnerable in the right spaces with the right people when you're trying to impart lessons or teach.

• 10:36Speaker 00

  To be a protector, to know that your family, I've got you, you're safe. You don't have to worry at all.

• 10:42Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 10:42Speaker 00

  I'm here. And then in and around relationships with other men, a masculine man for me is letting them know I've got your back and that you can talk to me. That is what a man is. You know, th- those things that you exhibit where, where you're helping or you're teaching and it's didactic. That's what masculinity is to me.

• 11:03Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 11:03Speaker 00

  But where I was 10 years ago to where I am now, eh, very, very different. 10, 15 years ago, I was full of ego and, and, um, and that might not have manifested in a way that people would have picked up on. But it was happening internally.

• 11:19Speaker 03

  Hey, Hugh and Josh. Yeah. You know how like with magazines? Yep. You can either go to the shop and when there's one there, you just buy one. Mm hmm. And then you go like, oh, hang on, there's an, there's the option to subscribe to this magazine. So it just comes to me automatically without me having to go to the shop. But did you know, guys, that that exact same concept also exists with podcasts and YouTube channels? You can subscribe and if you subscribe, then the, the episodes just come to you without you having to do anything.

• 11:46Speaker 02

  We love doing this and we want to keep doing it for a long time and we wanted to do the best we possibly can. And it really helps us.

• 11:52Speaker 03

  Go to subscribe.com.

• 11:56Speaker 02

  What's happened in the last 10 to 15 years, do you think that has?

• 11:59Speaker 00

  Um, mate, you know, lots of things, just reflection, um, uh, being a father, you know, and then, and then losing, um, you know, the years when they're, they're so young because it's so fleeting. You know, when, when you're in it, you're like, oh, when I go to bed, you know, like, a- and, and I wasn't present enough. And so, you know, when, when you reflect on that and you are where I am now, and I'm hugely envious of when I see parents with little kids. Um, their regrets, you know, so that regret comes into it and, and you go, okay, well, that's, I don't want to feel like that again.

• 12:40Speaker 00

  And also, you know, experienced loss, I lost a brother. Um, and, and perspective really, really sharpens about what life's about and where you are and what's important and what's not. Um, when I say like, I really put my ego to bed, like it's gone, you know, like, I think when you get older, self, self goes away. I mean, I've heard Robin Williams say that once, his self is gone and it becomes about others. And, and when, when you realise that and when, when that actually happens, it's a real emancipating feeling. You're like, oh my God, this is really what it's all about. But I had my head so far up my own backside for periods of that time where I just couldn't acknowledge any of that.

• 13:25Speaker 00

  And, uh, and like I said, it just sort of manifested in ways that I'm regretful for.

• 13:34Speaker 02

  Do you mind me asking, you mentioned your brother, loss of your brother there, I mean that. Do you mind me asking you about your brother?

• 13:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, look, he, he, um, he was the, the, the baby, uh, with us. So he's, um, the, the last born of five and, uh, he, he was a sook, you know, like as a young fella and, and, and an anxious kid and juxtaposed with this immense, you're talking about physical toughness. And Aaron was one of the greatest amateur boxers this country's ever had. Like he was exceptional. So he was this anxious scared boy juxtaposed with this immense, uh, courage and toughness. And so when he got sick, he was diagnosed with motor neuron disease in July of 2022. So you had these two things working against each other.

• 14:25Speaker 00

  You've got this boy, still a boy who's terrified of dying and anxious. And, and then you had this man who was the ability to withstand pain and adapt and, and fight. Worked against each other so that he, the way he passed away, uh, we still deal with, you know, like he died. Um, uh, in my parents' home. Um, and, and when I say the only thing that he could move in the end were his eyebrows and that's all he could move. So it took everything and, and, and that was, um, hard for us to watch because

• 15:09Speaker 00

  with motor neuron disease, you know, it's bit by bit plateau and then they lose this. And in the end, to see him the way he was as a family, we were like, we would say to each other, mate, not to him, but we'd make, give in enough, like let go, mate. And he just wouldn't. And, and so to see that was, like I said, those two things as in his personality that to, um, work against each other to, to get him where he got to. I mean, we, we, the doctor, Dominic Rowe, who's a hero, um, they brought him in, in,

• 15:49Speaker 00

  it was eight months before he actually passed, he, he'd collapsed lung and Dominic got us in. And he said, I don't think he's going to get out of here. He may not get out of here, so we're going to go to him and we're going to tell him, um, that, that I'm going to tell him that and that we can make him comfortable and he can go to a room tomorrow and we can. Anyway, so we got on in and there were, you know, my mum and my dad and sister, uh, two other brothers. And, and at that point he couldn't, he couldn't, his head had gone, so they're trying to hold his head up and he's connected all these things.

• 16:29Speaker 00

  And, um, Dominic said, look, son, I don't think you're getting out of here. Um, so we can make you comfortable and, and he just shook his head. He said, no. And, and for us, like, you're talking honestly, we were like, we were thinking relief, you know, he's, he's going to go.

• 16:50Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 16:51Speaker 00

  And he, um, and he shook his head and, uh, he said, yeah, he texted my mum, you know, I'll never give in. And he lived another eight months. Um, and he, but that was at home, you know, so what we witnessed, um, you wouldn't wish, you know, on, on anyone. You know, it just, it, it took, it took everything and he had, you know, three little boys. Um, so yeah, that, that, that, that, that experience in itself, um, shapes a perspective in life that, that otherwise I don't think I would ever have. You know, he died and there were 2,000 people at his funeral.

• 17:34Speaker 00

  Um, I don't know anyone who's had that many people at their funeral, this is a state funeral.

• 17:39Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 17:39Speaker 00

  And he was a wolfie, you know, he worked on the waterfront. Every person was there because he was such a good, kind, gentle man, you know? So I saw those things and I was like, well, you know, they're the things you aspire to, you know, like five things. You come in as a son, you're a brother, a friend, a partner, and then you're a father. And beyond those things, for me, it's all fluff. It's just bullshit. So there, and I've let myself down in those relationships, um, over the years all the time. But I'm aware of them and I'm aware of what's important in my life and, and inevitably

• 18:23Speaker 00

  how people will see me are only through the lens of those five things. I learnt that watching what happened to him, you know, so it was, um, hugely traumatic and, and that disease is, people need to be really, really, um, aware that it's not a rare disease anymore. It was one in 500 people in 1985, it's now one in less than 200. So it's environmental, um, there's a heap of research suggesting that concussion and head knocks, uh, may trigger it. And as it was in, my brother was in some really high risk environments.

• 19:03Speaker 00

  He was a greenkeeper, so he was in around fertilisers and, um, he was an elite sports person and he'd had, he'd had a lot of head knocks, so. But unfortunately now at the moment, there's just no cure for that, you know, yeah. And I did some work with Beck Dannerher and I, I did the slide with the big freeze for Neil and, um, I've got a second cousin who has it, got another really close mate who has it, Jai Arrow, um.

• 19:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was, I was going to ask you about, I know Jai threw.

• 19:33Speaker 00

  Jai's, yeah, he's, he's great, he's, um, you know, and, and he's showing immense courage and, and, but at the end of it, there is hope, you know, like they're, they're, they're working towards something that, that will either, they're not going to reverse whatever's happened, but they're hoping that there's some sort of, um, remedy where it can stop on its tracks, you know, and so that people can live, you know, with whatever it's ravaged already.

• 19:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:59Speaker 00

  Uh, but yeah, I've been really, you know, vocal and, and active in that space because, uh, you know, I just saw, you know, what, what, what it did to him and what it did to, you know, the people that loved him and, and, and my family. Like it's, like my older brother at the moment's going through some, like a post-traumatic stress sort of situation. Um, same with my sister and I can sort of feel that biting on, you know, tugging at my shirt that, that, that there's something I'm going to have to confront and, you know, because at the moment I'm sort of pushing it away and, but that had a profound effect on, on me personally, on just, you know, what, what's important in life.

• 20:41Speaker 00

  Um, and, and I did something in February last year. I went and did a psilocybin retreat and, and I was really sceptical of, of that. I mean, Aaron would say to me, you know, you should, you know, even when he was sick, this will be good for you. And I was like, that's too many wormholes in my head. I was like, I don't know.

• 21:01Speaker 03

  Can you just give like a quick explanation of what a psilocybin retreat is?

• 21:04Speaker 00

  So that's the, the mushroom, um, psilocybin and I was in a situation, um, in a, in a room, um, uh, up in the northern beaches and it's really well controlled with someone, um, a lot of music and a very calm space, very safe space. But at that point, like I was running towards it, I was like, I want, I need to do this. It was something, you know, to, to trigger, I was, I was stuck in grief and that.

• 21:34Speaker 00

  That experience for me was profound. It was remarkably difficult because there's certain points it it it doesn't tell you anything you don't already know. It's just not ambiguous. It's like, yeah, that's what this is.

• 21:49Speaker 03

  Is it because my my perception of it is that you're you essentially take these magic mushrooms in a controlled environment to essentially access what is sitting beneath

• 22:00Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 22:01Speaker 03

  the blocks and the

• 22:02Speaker 00

  It's a really good way of putting it. So, you know, for me, the first thing that I saw was was um

• 22:12Speaker 00

  I said to the the person who was administering, she said, what's your tolerance like to, you know, drugs and stuff? And I said, this will be high.

• 22:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:22Speaker 00

  Pretty high.

• 22:23Speaker 03

  Is it mid strength or full strength?

• 22:25Speaker 00

  I'm an actor, so this is, you know, it's I'll be okay. So I took, you know, a lot. And when I dropped in, um, the first thing that I saw, remember that you guys might be too young, but there was a cartoon years ago called Kimber the White Lion. And and so and you're awake, but your eyes are closed and saw this TV, this old TV and and Kimber the White Lion was on and the music like I hadn't heard that music in thirty years. It was like it was everywhere.

• 22:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:58Speaker 00

  Anyway, there's this and there's this boy um standing at the TV in a school uniform, little brown haired boy, and he turned around, he was crying, it was me.

• 23:08Speaker 03

  Oh, my God.

• 23:09Speaker 00

  So he ran to me and I held him for ten minutes. Now, I know what that was about. You know what I mean? Like, that was the first thing that it showed me.

• 23:20Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 23:20Speaker 00

  And so I got to do that and exercise that and um and that must have been sitting there for for such a long period of time. And then it it just showed me like you're you talk about ego, like we are so small. You know, like, it was like, we are all connected, but you are so small. And then it held me down in in in some some stuff that was really, really hard, you know, and I knew what that was and it rubbed my nose in it and it was, this is what this is. And it sort of let me go and then it showed me some other things.

• 23:56Speaker 03

  With with stuff that's really hard, do you mean?

• 23:59Speaker 00

  Hard, hard, hard in the in the sense of your regrets or

• 24:03Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 24:04Speaker 00

  you know, um, whatever that is.

• 24:07Speaker 03

  Experiences from your life.

• 24:08Speaker 00

  Experiences, you know, like, if you want to feel this way, then this is what this is and it it doesn't let you go. And then and then it opened up into um some extraordinary experiences where it showed me my whole family, you know, and and I saw my wife with this like a aura and she stepped out from behind a door and and I knew what that was immediately. That was like, she's she's right here. You know, she's right here. Pay attention, you know, like this is you're so lucky.

• 24:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:46Speaker 00

  It showed me my older brother, who was sort of holding my hand through the whole thing and my other brother, who who was um, I just had this immense love for. And then my sister, who was going through some some issues, she had her back toward me. Um, and then my my my two boys, um, I have this tattoo with the the um, the boys and my two boys and my daughter on my wrist. And I could see them so clearly, I couldn't see her. It was fading and I was I was panicking, I was like, what does this mean? Same thing, it's not ambiguous, it's just like, you have to engage, you know, you're

• 25:30Speaker 00

  a father with these two boys and you've got to talk to her, you've got to you've got to be there for her. And and that was and from that moment on, you know, like, I take her to school every day, we talk, it it changed things dramatically, but it was so, so real, you know, like, and not ambiguous, it was that like, this is what this is.

• 25:52Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 25:53Speaker 00

  And then I saw and I was panicking, I wasn't, I was gonna see my brother, you know, like, I was like, what is, what's gonna happen here? And he presented himself and it wasn't him to look at it, it was just him. And I've cried a thousand times for my brother before he passed away and after he passed away, I have never cried like that in my life. Like, I sobbed for half an hour. And again, it wasn't ambiguous, like, that's acceptance, he's gone and this is what this is, this is acceptance. And that pain, my pain, turned into, I saw my parents and their pain of losing a child.

• 26:39Speaker 00

  It was heartbreaking, you know, like, it was um, and then, you know, myself was, you know, you need to treat your mother better, you you got to, she's what she's going through compared to you.

• 26:57Speaker 00

  It's grief, but it's completely different. And my father, the tattoo, a bipolar tattoo, and that that face turned into my father and he was screaming in agony and that was because he can't hear, he's lost his son, he's start of Alzheimer's disease, he was just pure pain. Um, and then I got to let go of all this Catholic guilt that I had, that it was wrapped up in the shit that I believed and uh, it just, I walked out, I got out and it took me a long time to process it, but it was such a profound experience that it changed,

• 27:38Speaker 00

  it it changed me in ways that that the people around me, the people who love me are very aware of. You know, they go, you you're, this is, there's a real difference here.

• 27:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 27:49Speaker 00

  Um, so I feel remarkably lucky that I I I went through that and it came at a point in my life where um, you know, I I needed it, you know, like, it was a profound, profound experience, you know, something I'm really grateful for.

• 28:05Speaker 03

  Wow. It's something that I would I would love to do one day and I know a lot of people and understandably would be really reluctant to do it because it's like it's you're intentionally putting yourself in a situation where you're having to face potentially the most painful

• 28:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:18Speaker 03

  things.

• 28:19Speaker 01

  Toughness.

• 28:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:19Speaker 03

  Well, exactly. But then, like you just said, then it's actually like really the most selfless, kindest thing you can potentially do for the people around you because you've probably become way more available and and present and engaged with them.

• 28:34Speaker 00

  Ryan, what it what it what it, you know, taught me, and I've said this to, you know, my wife, I've said it to um, my brothers, my sister, my um, it it more than anything, to keep me out of the darkness and and and back into the light, the things that make me happy are making the people I love happy, that's simple. And and that might sound really, really basic and rudimentary, but that took a going through that, that that for me, you know, if I'm making, if I can see the people around me that I love happy and I'm making them happy and that's just not my family, it's my friends, it's whatever, then I'm good, you know, I'm I'm happy, I'm I'm I'm at ease with myself,

• 29:20Speaker 00

  I'm not looking in the um, you know, the the rear vision mirror, I'm I'm looking ahead and I'm and I'm moving forward. So uh, as simple as that sounds, that that's taken a long time to get there, you know what I mean?

• 29:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 29:35Speaker 00

  Really long time.

• 29:36Speaker 03

  Well, it's probably pretty common, I think, like, I was literally just talking to the team about this yesterday, but I I a few weeks ago, I was just walking on the street somewhere and I saw a guy who just to me seemed completely free and he was just like this joyous guy.

• 29:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:53Speaker 03

  Just having a lovely time, laughing. From from what I I didn't know the guy, but from what I could tell, felt like he had zero worries or blocks or but I feel like I walk around, I don't have like, I've never struggled with depression or anxiety really, but I feel like I walk around with like a a block, it's the layer of

• 30:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 30:12Speaker 03

  worry

• 30:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:13Speaker 03

  that I'm very conscious of and I find really hard to often break through it.

• 30:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:17Speaker 03

  And I was thinking like, I wonder what surely there's surely there's a drug I can take that can that can get me out of this. Not to get high, but just to kind of like access

• 30:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:30Speaker 03

  or to get rid of that block, but this sounds like

• 30:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, this is, you know, I've had um, um, the retreat I did with psilocybin for me, that was on another level and I think it happened at a point in my life where, you know, me wanting to do it and needing it at the same time sort of crossed over at a point and I took the right amount and felt safe and and so I was able to access. My brother had it um, at the end of the year last year and and he rang me and he had had uh, some mushrooms and and he was crying and what he'd experienced and and because he had this experience with my brother.

• 31:15Speaker 00

  Um, and and and for him, it's, you know, we lost our brother, they were two years apart, they were they were best friends, they traveled together, they were super tight. And so he's, it's been hard for him and he had this, he took these mushrooms and he had this experience where

• 31:33Speaker 00

  A whole room lit up, uh, like a light and, and he, and he's on him, he goes, that was him. And he goes, he, he was telling me, you know, he didn't hear a voice saying, but that what was, what was being transpired was Aaron saying, you need to, this is what you need to do. You need to be kinder to your wife and to, and to mum and to, you know, the, the partners of the, of, of my children and, and, and I'll always be here, you know, I'll, I'll never leave you. And he was like, just absolutely, like a beautiful experience for him, like an amazing experience.

• 32:15Speaker 00

  But again, not, not ambiguous. I mean, these, these medicines, and that's what they are, like have been around forever.

• 32:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:25Speaker 00

  And for thousands and thousands and thousands of years and, and they do work. I mean, psilocybin and the, the, the inroads that's happening with people with PTSD and, and depression. And, you know, they'll feed you. I've been on every goddamn, you know, pharmaceutical drug for those types of things. I've been to therapy for 20 years. Mate, what happened in eight hours? Mate, I, I blew everything out of the water.

• 32:52Speaker 01

  Well, it sounds like what happened in the, in those, and what you often hear from people who do, who do psilocybin retreats like that, and in a controlled way, is that it does feel like it's 20 years of therapy in an afternoon. Because the sort of stuff that you're talking about is the sort of stuff often that the talk therapy is, you know, it can take years to penetrate the layers and to access the stuff that you haven't really consciously thought about.

• 33:20Speaker 00

  No, totally. I mean, I go to therapy and, which is still, you know, it's important for me and I, but what I do is just unload onto my psychologist. Mate, after me, she'd just be going, oh, not again.

• 33:37Speaker 00

  But it's, it's, it's, uh, for me, gun of therapy is objectivity. You know what I mean? So you get stuck in your head and that, oh, well, this is not working because of this and that. You just pull back and, and, you know, therapy is like looking at things in a much more macro way and finding objectivity so that, you know, you can move forward with relationships and, and that's what that is. The, the psilocybin retreat was, was accessing things that I either wasn't courageous enough to talk about or wasn't cognizant that that was there. But that all just was right there. So it's just lifting the blanket and going, what's under here?

• 34:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:20Speaker 00

  There's spiders, there's snakes, there's, you know, so that's what that is. So I feel, you know.

• 34:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:27Speaker 00

  Time and place, it was probably the perfect.

• 34:29Speaker 02

  We've been, we've been doing this podcast for a long time, chatting to a lot of people. I don't, I don't know what's happening in my life at the moment that actually, I don't think it's moved me like that.

• 34:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 34:39Speaker 02

  That story.

• 34:40Speaker 00

  I could see that.

• 34:40Speaker 02

  I, um, yeah, I don't know why, but that's really hit me very hard.

• 34:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 34:45Speaker 02

  But so thank you for sharing that.

• 34:48Speaker 01

  Can I add something to that? Because I, hearing you talk about your brother and, and the way you talked about how you had each other as a family growing up, when you moved so much and how tired that made you. I've, I consider myself so lucky that I have a brother who has always looked out for me like another parent.

• 35:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:08Speaker 01

  Hugh and Joshua brothers.

• 35:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 35:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. And.

• 35:11Speaker 00

  It's amazing.

• 35:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. The way he's always had, um, he's always put me first.

• 35:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:17Speaker 01

  And has looked out for me in every point of my life. I wanted to ask you, and I hope it's not too sensitive of a question, how hard it must be to be an older brother when you can't help?

• 35:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, it, it's really hard. Um, everyone in our family had a, a very unique relationship with him. So my older brother and him bonded through, uh, an organisation they got involved with. Um, and my sister had this beautiful relationship with him that, you know, that they, they shared through live music. And, and then my other brother, they were two years apart. They did everything together. They were super close. I, you know, I, me and Aaron were the scaredy cats growing up as kids, you know, we used to leave the little light on. We used to sleep in the same bed together. He's sleeping with me until he was probably 11 years of age, you know, so.

• 36:11Speaker 00

  Um, and, and ironically, you know, we were the two fighters, you know, that, that, that's what happened, you know. Um, and, and Aaron, Aaron would have looked at me as, as the person in the family when it got really bad or really hard that I always stood up because that's what's happened. You know, like I said, you don't, you either are or you aren't. So there've been moments in our life that have been really hard as a family and, and I, I step up and step forward. And so for him, you know, what he would have seen in me is, he, he would have relied on me. If Matty's there, it's going to be okay. And I know that's how he felt. If Matty's there, everything will be okay.

• 36:54Speaker 00

  Um, and, and so for, for him as well, you know, I was,

• 37:01Speaker 00

  for him, I was a comfort, you know, like I would talk to him about fear and, and, and we shared boxing together, you know, like that's what we had. So, and I could, and it's true, you can't help him in the end, when, when he was ill and, and he was slipping away. You know, we would leave, you know, the house and I would sleep with, someone would stay every night. And, and, you know, I'd say to him, you want me to stay? And he, he couldn't talk, he'd nod. And that was him. That was my relationship with him. You know, like if Matty's here, I'm, I'm safe.

• 37:45Speaker 00

  Um, and he had this fucking bell at one point before it got really, really bad where he'd, he'd ring it during the, you would get no sleep. He'd say, oh, it's the bell. Anyway, he'd zip out of bed and the, and the poor bugger couldn't move. And, and, or you'd have to suction the saliva out of his mouth and, um, when he'd look up, yeah, and you want to be moved. So, you know, move him and roll him over and, um,

• 38:17Speaker 00

  and in the moment, you know, when it, when it was, when it was happening, um, and we all used to joke about it and, and laugh. It just wasn't a, it was never a problem. It was just, okay, we just felt so horribly sorry for where he was, you know, like he, he was tough, you know, like if you talk about physically tough. And, and he couldn't talk. You know, he lost his speech very quickly and he'd be sitting down and I'd say, mate, are you, you must be pissed off, you must be angry. And he'd look at me and go, which meant.

• 38:54Speaker 01

  Like shrugged his shoulders.

• 38:55Speaker 00

  What can I do? There you go. And my poor mother had to, you know, we'd leave at different stages and go home or, and she was there the whole time. And they had this very, very special relationship, you know, so. And going back there now, like it's still hard, you know, like in that room where he was and, um, and my dad, you know, he was at the, look, you, you gotta find humour in, in, in some of the things that were happening. So I'll share this with you. Like my dad's got Alzheimer's and he was, it's probably been exacerbated by losing his, his, his son. But, um, Aaron had a peg in his stomach for 12 months before he passed away. So he hadn't eaten, he hadn't eaten, hadn't spoken, hadn't walked in 12 months.

• 39:40Speaker 00

  Um, he's lying down on his bed, so he can't move. And my old man came up to him and said, you know, mate, I've, I've made some spaghetti polonaise. Would you, would you like some? And I'm, so my old man's there, I'm there, Aaron goes.

• 39:56Speaker 01

  Just gave you a look.

• 39:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, he's just like, what the fuck? And so, but you know, you had those moments where, you know, that you, you'd find some humour in what they were both going through.

• 40:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:07Speaker 00

  And then, but you know, he, he passed away and, um, and my poor old, old, my poor old dad, you know, he, he, Aaron was passed away on, on the bed and, and, and he came up to me and he said, is, did he, did he die last night or today? I said, no, he passed away about an hour ago, mate, you know, and in his, in his head, he didn't, he just couldn't.

• 40:32Speaker 01

  No, really?

• 40:33Speaker 00

  Yeah. So, um.

• 40:34Speaker 01

  Jesus.

• 40:35Speaker 00

  You know, so there were, you know, and I saw my father, you know, things that, like I said, parents' grief and a, and a sibling's grief are both really, really, um, profound. But a, a parent's grief, you know, which I saw, um, you know, I saw my father, you know, when they came and got him, have to walk out with his son. And so I'll never, I'll take him to grave what, what, what, what that looked like. Um, so, but, but these are all things, you know, like these experiences that, that shape who you are. Inevitably, like I, if I don't come out of this a better human being and a more compassionate, empathetic,

• 41:16Speaker 00

  then, then you've missed the point, you know, because we're all going to endure loss. Um, and if there's nothing to be gleaned from it, except just grief, then, then you've, you've missed the, missed the boat.

• 41:29Speaker 01

  What a waste.

• 41:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:30Speaker 02

  That's the, um, you just mentioned through the whole journey you went through, you were tattooed on your arm, um, the bipolar and the depression. I'm interested to know about, you've also got a date tattooed on.

• 41:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I've got, I'm covered in mental health tattoos and, and, you know, there's, um, your ego as well. Yeah, I've got some really bad tattoos, you know, like they're all over the place. But, um, uh, the depression, um,

• 42:00Speaker 00

  you, you know, I was diagnosed in 2012 with, um, biological melancholic depression and bipolar too, which is not a, the, the doctor who diagnosed me, that, um, I'll call Gordon Parker, who's, you know, was the head of the Black Dog Institute. And he said, that, that's not a good combination. You know, and, and he laid out some pretty, um, stark sort of, uh, realities. He said, look, if you don't get help with this, then, then you will end up with nothing, nothing, no family, no nothing.

• 42:33Speaker 01

  Wow. What was that like to you?

• 42:35Speaker 00

  Uh startling, but then, you know, that's got to sink in and and I knew what where my dark moments were, what it what it what it felt like. And it was always sort of cyclic. And it would come and go. And as a young fella, I would get into these, what I used to call funks, where I wouldn't talk to people for quite a long time. And I just couldn't dig myself out. And I didn't know what was wrong. And so that was sort of the start of, like I said, was inside me anyway.

• 43:01Speaker 03

  What what was the sort of, was there an event or things that happened that led you to getting diagnosed? Or was it just?

• 43:08Speaker 00

  Uh, just chaotic life, you know, um, yeah, there were a period of time where it just, yeah, the the train was coming off the tracks and and I needed to to write it and get some answers with a young family and um wasn't looking after myself that well. And and and when I got told what, you know, bipolar two is, I already could explain it. Like, I knew what what was going on. I just didn't know it was that. And and for people who who think that, you know, I know people who think bipolar is bullshit and not.

• 43:46Speaker 00

  Hypomania is about as ten times better than any drug I've ever had in that period, right? When when you're flying that high. Now, I've been there uh over periods of my life that I have been in hypnotic states for periods of time that I have made choices and decisions, both that have set me on a path to where I'm now and really poor ones. So it's a double edged sword. But if I'm not bipolar melancholic depressive, I'm not, I'm not an actor, I'm not writing, I'm not here. I don't, I don't know what I'm unemployable. So I don't know what I'd be doing, but I made choices

• 44:25Speaker 00

  in fits of mania, hypomania, that that that worked out thankfully. Like, I I've I'd never been on a film set before in my life. I had no great desire to be an actor. I wanted to write from a very early age. I had written this thing fifteen years ago. And after a conversation with Thomas Caneely, who who had read a manuscript of mine, I wrote I wrote one, sent it to him. And he remembered me from playing at Manly. And then I sent him another one. He he read the first one. He said, son, if this is what you want to do, you should put it in the drawer and keep writing. So I wrote something else. I gave it to him six months later. And he called me.

• 45:07Speaker 00

  I was I was working as a beer rep for James Boggs. And he called me and he said, son, I've just read your new manuscript. And he said, I'm just gonna tell you now, this is what you should be doing. And I wouldn't tell you that if I didn't believe it, because it'd be immoral of me. That conversation changed everything, because I was in this horrible situations. Like, if I can't make this a career somehow, I'm I'm gonna really, really struggle. I quit my job a week later, and my wife thankfully had read the manuscript, which was auctioned. And, you know, twelve months later, and I got a two book deal. And but I said, give me twelve months just to see if I can make something of this. So in the twelve month period, after leaving the job,

• 45:51Speaker 00

  I'd made a movie, I'd written a movie, made a movie, put myself in it. Paramount Pictures had bought it. That was all done in hypomania.

• 46:00Speaker 03

  Which movie was that?

• 46:01Speaker 00

  It was called The Final Winter. So if I'm not have that disorder, then I'm not making those choices. Look, believe me, the people who loved me and and cared for me, they weren't tapping me on the backside going, mate, where you go? They're going, who the fuck does this guy think he's gonna be in a movie? My parents go, Christ, oh, why? His body's in it. Oh, never, I'd never taken an acting lesson. I've never been a film set. Day one of that film was the first time I'd been on a film set. If I'm not hyper manic, and I'm not reaching for these things that aren't seeded in reality when you're normal, then I'm not making those choices. I remember coming out of mania and and being in the film set and going,

• 46:43Speaker 00

  I I really don't understand how I got here or what I'm doing. Just just put, don't think about it, just keep going. But that that's where I got to.

• 46:52Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 46:53Speaker 00

  The movie comes out um in September of two thousand and seven. November of two thousand and seven, I got a phone call. I didn't have an agent, I had nothing. This agent rings me out of blue and says, look, they're looking for the lead in this TV series over in America. Um, would you go on tape and audition? I didn't know what she meant. I'd never auditioned or go on tape. I didn't like taper tape. She goes.

• 47:17Speaker 03

  How did they get onto you? How did they find you?

• 47:18Speaker 00

  They, the agency had seen the film and they were like, Matt might be right for this. So they were, they were, thankfully, they, anyway.

• 47:26Speaker 03

  And he's also got an agent, so we can get him cheap.

• 47:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And so I'm sitting there going, okay, so I went down to Fox Studios and did an audition. I'd never auditioned before in my in my life. So there's a camera, there's another guy talking with me. I'm like, I don't know, I did the accent all right. Anyway, I got a phone call the next day going, we're putting you on a plane on Monday to go to L A to test for the studio and the network, right? I'm like, what? Okay. Anyway, I told my wife, she goes, what? I said, yeah, yeah. Anyway, get on the plane to go to go to America. I go and.

• 48:00Speaker 03

  There are a thousand actors listening to this guy, like, fuck you.

• 48:05Speaker 00

  And they should be. So I walk into the uh the network or tests for the network. And the director, a guy called John Hertzfeld, he'd done a lot of stuff. He goes, he wanted me, he goes, you've nailed it. You got to do it now for the studio. So I went back in the studio. Anyway, I finished at the studio. Anyway, he rings me up and he goes, mate, congratulations, you got it. I'm like, okay, righto. So I go home. And it's not like I'm number one on the call sheet, like I'm the leader of this thing, right? This me. I'm like, I don't, this is ridiculous. So I go over there, um, film it, you know, main title card, I'm the number one on the call sheet. I had one credit, which was The Final Winter.

• 48:45Speaker 00

  Um, and and if I'm not making those decisions twelve months, eighteen months before, in the in those manic, um, then then none of that happens, you know.

• 48:56Speaker 03

  We're just, this is such a naive question, but with bipolar two, you've got, you say hypomania. So you have periods of of weeks or days or hours or what happens?

• 49:04Speaker 00

  There's all sorts of this fast cycling. So sometimes you get into a a situation where it's like you're really, really uh um high during the day, and then it cycles down at night or the other way around. And you can, you know, that's what's happening. And and then there's weeks where it's you're bubbling away. And then pop, you're like, I'm in it, I'm here now. Look, the way it manifests itself is like, if I'm in hypomania, you're you're big talking, you know, like my wife can tell straight away. I'm like, are you high? I'm like, sorry. And like, so it it big talk, um, you know, risky behaviour, um, exacerbated with alcohol, um, you know, talking to people that I don't know.

• 49:47Speaker 00

  Now, I've been invited to weddings because people have had a good experience with me with, you know, two nights on the drink, because I'm on bipolar, fuck, Matt Nable's a, gee, he's the best. Because what I'm doing is telling them how good they are.

• 49:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 49:59Speaker 00

  So I'm I'm trying to drag everyone up to where I'm at, you know, so you then that's not real, because you come down, you're like, oh, the phone will ring, you'll be like, I don't wanna, fuck.

• 50:11Speaker 03

  Oh, who's that?

• 50:12Speaker 00

  So, you know, um, these days, thankfully for me, um, which can happen as you get older, it can it can really diminish. So there was a period of like ten years where it was, you're surfing it, right? Like, and and as soon as I'd, spring would come, you'd be like, nah, here we go, you know, hang on. Um, look, like I said, I'm not acting if I don't have it. I'm also not married. You know, unless I get a get a hold of it, right? So it's a double edged sword. So um, coming out of it, you're you're like, okay, well, it's it's it's I'm I'm out of it. Um, next time it happens, do I, how do I manage this? So I've been lucky as I've got older, it's diminished.

• 50:58Speaker 00

  And I'm just really honest with it. So I'll just go, well, I I need to hunker down here for a little while, because this is feeling a little too good. Um, and and then it will pass.

• 51:10Speaker 03

  Is there a flip side to it, though? Like, is it, is there a low?

• 51:13Speaker 00

  Look, the low is the depression. Um, but that's different. The coming off the the high of a hypomanic episode is exhaustion and and regret, depending on what you've done.

• 51:26Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 51:27Speaker 00

  Um, melancholic depressive is a depression for me, like bipolar doesn't scare me, depression scares me. Depression is because that can take me to places very, very quickly for no reason. It's not situational, not circumstantial. People could look at my life and go, why, what's wrong?

• 51:42Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 51:43Speaker 00

  So it comes from nowhere. And then there's no real reason for it. It's just this melancholic, dark gloom that will will sit on me. And and and so there are things that I do now to, I I like, okay, I'll I'll get through this. And and I've said this quite often, you know, I've been lucky that people have, I've got people around me who have who have grabbed my hand and and taken me from the dark back to the light and and dragged me out of it, or sat with me in the dark uh until it passes. Um, and it's been hard at times for my children to to bear witness to, because they they they understand, well, they know.

• 52:24Speaker 00

  You know, they go, well, he's he's not right. Um, but more my wife, you know, like, um, hard not to get emotional, like, um.

• 52:34Speaker 03

  She sits with you?

• 52:35Speaker 00

  She she she, what she's endured, you wouldn't put anyone through, you know, it's it's been a hard road. And and she stood by me. She's she believes in me, you know, and she, yeah, she's sat with me. She's, that's different stages, dragged me out of it. Um, but, you know, I'm there there's there's three people in in my life that I've that I've had that are just exceptional people, that are just beautiful people. My mother, um, my wife's mother, who passed away last year, and my wife. You know, um, are people that.

• 53:13Speaker 00

  Have such a goodness, a purity in them that, that I've not encountered anywhere else. And, and you know, what she's had to endure through the, the, the bipolarism has been difficult, but the depression, no, she knows that, that, that this will come and bite me again at some point, you know, that this, it's gonna happen, you know, and she doesn't, she, she, she understands, you know, like, and she's gonna sit there with me and, and she not leaving, she's not saying, oh, this is, this is Maddie and this is part of it, you know, um.

• 53:49Speaker 00

  And there, and there's that, there is a part of it, you know, that knowing that when you're in it, thankfully, that I know what will pass, like, I know that now, so you're not gonna make a permanent decision to a temporary problem. Now, like I said, I have this tattoo on my, my, my wrist where, you know, a- and this is how it happens. Um, you make, all of a sudden, one day, I started making plans really quickly. Like, I was, I was like, I'm, I'm, I'm done. And, and I found myself in a situation at a place, uh, where I, I feel very lucky that I'm, that I'm here. And, and what pulled me away from where I was inevitably was shame,

• 54:35Speaker 00

  shame. Like, it was an overwhelming, uh, feeling of like, uh, you, you're not gonna do, this is shameful, you know what I mean? And, and I'm thankful for that, you know, because that, that led me away from where I, and I've never been there since. But the, the speed in which that happened in a day, that's startling. And for so many people, that is how it happens, you know?

• 55:05Speaker 01

  And is that what the tattoo is? That's the date on your?

• 55:07Speaker 00

  That's the date, yeah. Um, which, you know, I don't speak openly about, I mean, happy to talk about it, but, you know, people look at it and go, who know me, go, they wouldn't have a clue what that's about. But that for me is just a reminder of how quickly things can happen, um, and, and how quickly it could be, uh, over, you know, and, and, and you're gone. And, and, ah, man, you know, it, it, it happens so often. And, and, and unfortunately, it happens, uh, in epidemic proportions for, for men, um, which doesn't get addressed, you know, a, a great deal, or, or nowhere near as much as it should. Um, so, you know,

• 55:48Speaker 00

  I'm, I'm remarkably lucky that, you know, I have the support around me, particularly my wife, um, but my immediate family, because there, there is a, a world where it might not have played out that way.

• 56:02Speaker 01

  I know exactly what you're talking about. Um, I've been, I've spoken about it, um, before, but I, the speed is such an interesting thing I haven't really talked about, but the speed, I, I had a moment in 2010.

• 56:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:19Speaker 01

  Where I, and I've spoken about this, but I found myself on the edge of a building.

• 56:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:24Speaker 01

  And I was really drunk, which didn't help.

• 56:27Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 56:28Speaker 01

  But for whatever reason, I pulled myself back from the edge that night, and I haven't been in that close. But I've, there's been other times, like only two years ago, I just, I was already, so I've had bouts of depression, um, and I, um, and I, I stuffed up the hot cross buns for the family on Easter. And I was so pissed off at myself.

• 56:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:52Speaker 01

  But I found myself in the shower, I needed to get away. It was at my in-law's house. Um, and I, I was punching, I punched myself so hard in the thigh, so many times, and I just couldn't, and I, and I went from 10 minutes earlier, I woke up and I was like, I'm, these, I, I think I wasn't in a good state, and I'm like, these hot cross buns are gonna make me feel good. I'm gonna be the guy that creates this thing, and I'd, and I'd fuck them up. Um, and I went from being, I'm gonna be the guy that saves Easter or makes Easter, to your kids need a better dad.

• 57:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:28Speaker 01

  Within 10 minutes, five minutes.

• 57:30Speaker 00

  Yeah. And that's the startling part, mate. I'm sorry to hear that, but that's how quickly it can happen.

• 57:34Speaker 01

  It, it's, yeah. And, and it's terrifying. It's really scary to me to know that I'm capable of that, of getting there.

• 57:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:42Speaker 01

  But what you said about your wife really resonated with me because I hate being such a downer to, to like, that my wife and my kids are too young to really know, they're four and six. Um, but I hate the fact that I, that it could come again, and I'm gonna be like, I'm gonna have to tell them.

• 58:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think the thing is for that, mate, is you, you talk to people, you know, and you make people aware around you that, that this is what you're going through. That's really, really important. Um, you know, my kids are in an age now, they're a 22-year-old boy, 20-year-old boy, and a 16-year-old girl. So if I find need to talk to them about it, I, I can talk to them about it. The other flip side of that is, and what I've learned is, because there's, that there's that, that there's that darkness, then we as depressives can often look at the world a little differently. So when there is real joy, when there is real happiness, you acknowledge it. Like, it, it lives inside you, like, this is the best.

• 58:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:42Speaker 00

  You know, so you, you, because you felt that, you get to feel this, which is moments I have where, they're, they're tiny little moments, but I go, I'm at, I'm at home, and I see what my family is, what we've all, how we all are with each other, and, and I'll hear music, or, and I'm like, I wouldn't trade this for anything.

• 59:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:08Speaker 00

  And, and also too, mate, like, yeah, you look at the world differently. I, I, I see things that perhaps other people don't take on board or will acknowledge, that you find humanity in. You're like, this, this should affect me. You know, as sad as it is and as hard as it is, you, you gotta, you gotta accept it and you've gotta take it on board.

• 59:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, I feel compelled to add that for, for me, the depress, when I'm in a depressive state, it's a numbness to the world that really gets me down, this sort of lack of engagement with anything.

• 59:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:41Speaker 01

  But then, we've spoken a lot on this show about how being present and in the moment is the, is the goal, it's the dream.

• 59:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:48Speaker 01

  And I feel like there's a moment when I'm coming out of it.

• 59:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:51Speaker 01

  When I, it, it can be like a flower, or a sunset, or a, or just something, and I suddenly just am like lit up, I get tingles thinking about it now, and it's the, I'm like, I'm here.

• 1:00:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:02Speaker 01

  And this is the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. And it's like, yes, I'm back. And I'm, it's just the best.

• 1:00:07Speaker 00

  It's a great, and if I hang on to things, you know, like, um, music is a big thing for me, a trigger, uh, smells, um, like I said, I, I mean, it's, but, you know, if I'm making the people around me happy, I'm happy to see people happy. You know, I get, I work for Fox Sports and you do all the voiceover there, so I get tickets for everything, you know, for everything. And nothing makes me happier. It's like, you know, you wanna go ringside? Yeah, go. You wanna go to the grand final? Go. You wanna go to State of Origin? Go. You know, they, those little things, I'm like, to see the joy on other, other people's faces, just their little things. I'm like, wow, you know, that's, yeah, that, that, that's, and that's what life's about. You know, like, those moments where you're able to impart

• 1:00:50Speaker 00

  some sort of happiness or joy for someone else, nourishes who you are. Yeah, mate, as depressive people, you've got enough to, to deal with, but that, those moments where you can nourish yourself and, and, and love yourself, you know, which I've learned, um, are really, really important because that, that's the lens then that you see life through.

• 1:01:10Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:01:10Speaker 00

  When you feel good about yourself and who you are, mate, there's no, there's no murky lens, it's like clear, it's, it's, uh, it's just a better way to see, see life, you know? And like I said, just took, took way longer to get there than it should have. For something so simple. Yeah, I did. Yeah.

• 1:01:29Speaker 01

  I mean, you, you, you've given us so much today. It's really unbelievable. I just wonder whether or not, for all of us Fox Footy fans, is there a really common phrase you say as the voice of Fox Footy?

• 1:01:41Speaker 00

  Here we go.

• 1:01:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. My, my kids are always like, oh, you know, the, the, you know, I do the AFL, the NRL and the boxing, but the AFL and the NRL every week.

• 1:01:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:53Speaker 00

  And, uh, yeah, there's, there's a few, you know?

• 1:01:56Speaker 01

  What's, what's the catchphrases?

• 1:01:57Speaker 00

  Oh, it's like, what about this guy?

• 1:02:01Speaker 00

  Here we go, you know, so every time Gordon Tallas sees me, he just goes, Matty, here we go. So, um, you know, right here on Fox League.

• 1:02:12Speaker 00

  And look, I feel like I love doing that. It just is a gift. It really is.

• 1:02:17Speaker 03

  What a gig.

• 1:02:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:02:18Speaker 02

  It makes, everything sort of makes sense as to why you can write so well as well. Like why you are such a great writer. And your latest book now, Myer, is that right? I'd love to hear a bit about that before.

• 1:02:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, look, Myer, look, this is the fifth, fifth novel I've had. So like, like I said, writing for me is, is a real anchor. But that's, I feel, you know, someone asks me what I am. And if I say an actor, sometimes I'm like, you know, I don't know if I'm very good at that. I'm not trained. So there's this imposter syndrome that sort of comes with that at times. And then I can get over that pretty, pretty quickly. But writing for me is a great part of my persona. Like it is, like I was writing on the plane here, I'll write on the way back. It's, it's a really important part of anchoring me to my life.

• 1:03:08Speaker 03

  And is that writing? Is that like journaling or is it intentional?

• 1:03:11Speaker 00

  No, no, writing. So either a, a novel, fiction or a screenplay. It's, um, hard to explain how much joy, particularly as I've got all that, that I derive from it, how much I, I love it. Like when I hear people talk about writer's block, I'm, I'm, I'm a bit miffed. I'm like, I've never had that, you know, like.

• 1:03:30Speaker 03

  I'm very miffed.

• 1:03:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. I'm like, I, I just in, I, I could, if I could write in that and that would be it, then, then, then that's what I'd do. But Myer is about a guy who, Dan Milligan, who's, who's a dickhead, you know, and, uh, he's, he's, he's gone through the stock market crash in 1987. Um, and this is a guy who's been wanting his father's approval his whole life. And his father's a soldier and, and he just doesn't name up. And, and so what he decides is I want to be rich and wealthy. And, you know, he's a real tryhard. And I'll preface it by saying, I, I was, you know, Azar had passed away and I needed to have some fun about who I was writing about. So I'd go back and write this guy. I was like, this is just great fun. Cause he's bad choices.

• 1:04:15Speaker 00

  Just like, oh, he's done it again. Um, but he goes through the stock market crash, loses all his money, his wife leaves him, goes down South Coast and, and starts mowing lawns, right? Just that he's got nothing else. So I, it's a bit of historical fiction. Back in the seventies and the eighties, the American mafia were really, really involved in the riverina, growing marijuana. Massive quantities. And they had a little trouble getting it out because it was all cash. So I just put it in, in the South Coast and Dan comes across, as he's mowing a property, comes across this hoard of money in a, like a trapdoor in a, in a, in like a big property.

• 1:04:52Speaker 03

  Hoard of money?

• 1:04:53Speaker 00

  Like a, like a bags.

• 1:04:55Speaker 03

  A hoard of money.

• 1:04:56Speaker 00

  So he sees it and he's like, I'm not touching that. Like there's, there's like a million dollars in there. And he's like, no, no. Leaves it, leaves it, leave it. The guy who owns the property ends up selling it. He leaves, he goes back and he goes, it's still there. What do I do? And this is a guy who's just driven by, you know, the facade. And he's got this grand plan. If I take this, I come back, everyone will, oh, we're fucking flying again. And, and he just can't help himself. And he takes it. And he inserts himself back into the trading life and he's swimming in it. He's, everyone's, you know, and he's very, very debaucherous sort of lifestyle. And, and they, they track it down and they find him.

• 1:05:32Speaker 03

  The mafia.

• 1:05:33Speaker 00

  The mafia. And they, you know, as soon as he's, they're going to knock him up in the Blue Mountains and they're going to knock another guy there at the same time, who's another mafia associate. And this guy, Dan, pleads for his life. He says, look, I'm a trader, I can make the money back. And I've got property. And they go, no, no, we've already got that. We want the cash that he took. And so what happens is he has this moment where he's pleading for his life and the other mafia guy goes, right, if you want to start working it off, start now. And so he's like, I'm not killing that guy. He goes, it's, you, you, look, we're killing him. You're going straight after him. But if you want to live, start working for me.

• 1:06:13Speaker 03

  Great story.

• 1:06:15Speaker 00

  It was, look, it was a real, great fun to write. Like I said, I was, I was grieving and, and I needed something to write that was, that was just a, like a, a fun time. And so hanging with this guy, you know, while I was writing and I was like, this is, this is a real joy.

• 1:06:29Speaker 03

  That's.

• 1:06:30Speaker 00

  So yeah, it's, um, yeah, so it's out now and, um, it's doing really well, which is, which is great. So mate, I am the luckiest man in the world, you know, like on, on so many levels. But, and, and I'm remarkably grateful. You know, I mean, you went through before, I've done all these different things, mate. For a lot of it, and this is the truth, I've been in the right place at the right time. I've had people believe in me that, that, that otherwise, you know, other people may not have, have had that grace. So I, I'm thankful for all those opportunities and, and, and belief. Um, because without those people on the way, I, I, like I said before, when I said I'm unemployable, I'm unemployable. You know, I, I'd be, I'd be looking at, why the

• 1:07:12Speaker 00

  fuck, I'm going to have to get out of this job before they fire me. I'd probably interview really well and then yeah.

• 1:07:19Speaker 03

  Well, you auditioned very well, clearly.

• 1:07:21Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. So I, I'm, I'm really lucky. Like I feel really, really, um, grateful for everything that I've, that I've got. Yeah.

• 1:07:29Speaker 02

  Well, Matty, what you've given us today is the reason that we do this podcast. So thank you so much for your time.

• 1:07:34Speaker 00

  No, and thank you, boys, for, um, you know, I could see that it was affecting everyone. And, and I wish that, um, you know, men could get around and, and talk like this openly a little bit more. For me, it's, it's, it's cathartic. You know, I get to, you know, talk about things that otherwise I might bottle up. So, uh, I've, I've equally enjoyed it as much, boys. So thank you very much for having me.

• 1:07:59Speaker 01

  Hi, it's me again. And I'm here with George. Hello.

• 1:08:02Speaker 04

  Hello, Josh.

• 1:08:03Speaker 01

  George, for those of you who don't know, George is a editor, video person. He just runs so much of the show and such an important part of the team. We're here today to talk about, what are we here to talk about?

• 1:08:13Speaker 04

  The thing that I don't run at all.

• 1:08:15Speaker 01

  True, which is the newsletter. Um, we have a newsletter. It's called My Imperfect Email. And one of the aspects of the newsletter that makes it so special is the journaling club that we've started. Um, every week in our Imperfects newsletter, you get a question to reflect on, uh, that's inspired by the week's episode. And George, you're here to tell us a bit about the question this week and why we went with that question.

• 1:08:37Speaker 04

  Yeah. So this week we have gone with the question, how would you like to be remembered? Quite a beautiful, big question to think about.

• 1:08:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:08:45Speaker 04

  And the reason for that is Matt spoke about his brother Aaron and the turnout to his funeral.

• 1:08:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:51Speaker 04

  I think he said there was like 2,000 people who came because he was such a kind, gentle man.

• 1:08:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:56Speaker 04

  And then Matt also went on to say how all he wants to be known for in this life is five things, a son, a brother, a friend, a partner and a father.

• 1:09:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:07Speaker 04

  And I just thought that was just such a nice way to think about life and think about how you'd like to be remembered by the people around you.

• 1:09:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, fantastic. Um, so for anyone that wants to be a part of the journaling club, you just have to sign up to the newsletter, which you can do so at theimperfects.com.au or there should be a link in this episode, uh, episode notes for you to click on.

• 1:09:26Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:09:26Speaker 01

  Uh, and if you feel comfortable, please share your entries with us and, and it might be featured in, uh, next week or another week's newsletter.

• 1:09:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, we'd love to read them.

• 1:09:35Speaker 01

  This show was made in the lands of the Wurundjeri Wurundjeri people, and we pay our respects to elders past and present. The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you're struggling, please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 13 1114.