My Brilliant Career Took Years of Rejection

Have you ever watched the person you love most get everything you ever wanted? Did you harden around envy, or shrink with comparison? Were you able to find happiness for their success? Philippa Northeast, Logie nominated and lead of Netflix’s My Brilliant Career, is a star quickly rising. Her most significant role? The little sister of our producer, Bridge. 💌Join 9,400+ others in our newsletter community - http://bit.ly/45NyQDy Joining us as a guest host, Producer Bridge, alongside Hugh, Josh and Ryan, discuss the years of failure and rejection behind the scenes of Pip’s overnight success. Constantly aware of the need to prove herself a success, Philippa is completely vulnerable about the obsession that came from certain rejections, and her anxiety which manifested itself as trichotillomania. Offering a unique and intimate perspective, both Bridge and Josh reflect on their respective siblings’ success, and how that has shaped their own identity. It’s sibling vs sibling, and only one will make it out alive (kidding, it has a happy ending). 0:00 – Meet Producer Bridge’s Little Sister 5:43 – Pip’s Brilliant Career: From Home & Away to Netflix Star 11:39 – Middle Child Syndrome 19:28 – Sibling Comparison: Cricket and Drama Solos 20:55 – Finding Success Straight Out of High School 22:56 – Self-belief vs Self-doubt: Why Pip Took The Leap and Bridget Didn’t 25:30 – Feeling Over-shadowed, and Under Pressure 28:00 – Becoming an Unemployed Clown 29:17 – The Sensational Potter Backup Plan 34:01 – Getting Undressed (Again) 35:46 – The Hollywood Grind 37:32 – Lockdown, Isolation and Growing Doubt 46:15 – Obsession born from Rejection 51:49 – What Loneliness in the Acting Industry Feels Like 52:46 – The Body Keeps Score: Trichotillomania 54:47 – Healing: Journalling, Yoga, Grounding 57:04 – The Hallmark Offer That Changed Everything 1:03:39 – The Downside of Growing Up Next To A Rising Star 1:07:29 – Choosing Pride Over Jealousy 1:09:49 – The Upside of Losing to Claudia Karvan 🫖 Imperfects episodes mentioned on this episode Claudia Karvan - Love, Her Way - https://bit.ly/3UNr9LC What’s Your ATAR? - https://bit.ly/4zQ4AG5 📺 Things to watch My Brilliant Career - https://bit.ly/4zPaW8L Family Next Door - https://bit.ly/4gEp0cw Newsreader - https://bit.ly/3UNr4ri A Royal Runaway Romance - https://bit.ly/3V8rGb2 Standing Up For Sunny - https://bit.ly/4xyeASP 🎧 Things to listen to Undressed by Sombr - https://bit.ly/4wY9Ipf 🩷To host your own Vulnerabilitea House, purchase here - theimperfects.com.au/shop 🩵To purchase our journal (or your novel) My Imperfect Life, click here - theimperfects.com.au/shop 🩵To join our subscriber community, A Little More Imperfects, follow this link - patreon.com/theimperfects 🩷 AND you can subscribe to A Little More Imperfects through Apple Podcasts http://apple.co/theimperfects The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  After Home and Away, I became very unemployed. Three or four rejections a week. I remember going to family functions and feeling like the most unemployed clown.

• 0:16Speaker 01

  Philippa North East is an overnight success story. Years in the making.

• 0:20Speaker 00

  You're right, mum. I'm too selfish to be a good mother.

• 0:23Speaker 02

  Well, that's the best acting I've ever seen.

• 0:24Speaker 01

  Logie nominated, Netflix star.

• 0:27Speaker 00

  You talk to me about freedom, Frank, and you are already treating me like I'm your property.

• 0:30Speaker 01

  And producer Bridget's little sister. But before the success was years of rejection.

• 0:36Speaker 00

  I was starting to constantly pull at my hair when I was anxious, but I noticed I'd do it in the moments that I was not feeling good and not having a lot to do.

• 0:50Speaker 00

  And I would read online that, you know, you'd get a lacquer band and you'd pull the lacquer band anytime so that you diverted the pain somewhere else and you didn't need to do it.

• 1:03Speaker 01

  Also joining us for this special episode is Bridget North East.

• 1:07Speaker 00

  To have your youngest sister be better at this thing that you really wanted to do or you really love, that's an embarrassing thing.

• 1:16Speaker 03

  Bridget's brain was just vagina, vagina, vagina.

• 1:19Speaker 03

  It's still there, to be honest.

• 1:27Speaker 01

  This is a very rare occasion. We have, I don't think we've ever done this before, where we have upped the body count of people on this show. Usually four, usually a quartet is usually how this show works, usually a quartet. This is a quintet today, five of us. So we're going to find out so much about Philippa North East and how we'll really find out so much about Philippa North East is because probably many of you are thinking, I know that surname. I know that surname from this show. Bridget North East, our producer, the sister of Philippa North East.

• 2:04Speaker 03

  And even weirder is, this is Bridget talking now.

• 2:08Speaker 02

  It's not Josh.

• 2:12Speaker 03

  Is this is the first time North East have outnumbered Van Kylenbergs in the room.

• 2:18Speaker 00

  This is huge.

• 2:18Speaker 03

  We also have our cousin Bella North East producing this episode.

• 2:22Speaker 01

  Nepotism is right.

• 2:23Speaker 00

  Is right.

• 2:25Speaker 01

  This is a real problem. Hugh, tell us about this incredibly accomplished woman.

• 2:31Speaker 02

  It will be my absolute pleasure. As per Wall Street Journal, Pip North East has a face that will launch a thousand mini series. How good is that line?

• 2:39Speaker 01

  Is it a weird compliment to say like, you know what? You've got a face for mini series.

• 2:45Speaker 03

  Not long running. There's no season two in that face, but there's certainly a setup.

• 2:50Speaker 01

  You're good for about two to four episodes.

• 2:53Speaker 02

  But a thousand of them, which is a lot.

• 2:55Speaker 00

  A thousand is a lot. I don't have time.

• 2:56Speaker 02

  And according to her family, Pip had a head so large as a baby that people were genuinely worried.

• 3:03Speaker 01

  It's good.

• 3:03Speaker 02

  It's true.

• 3:04Speaker 00

  It's still a big head.

• 3:05Speaker 03

  It's as big now as it was when she was a baby.

• 3:08Speaker 00

  I grew into it.

• 3:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, she's grown into it. It was so big that you couldn't, Phil didn't crawl. She just shuffled.

• 3:15Speaker 00

  I did.

• 3:16Speaker 01

  Too top heavy.

• 3:16Speaker 00

  The weight was too much. Yeah, it was disproportionate. I did, I just shuffled and then I went straight to walking.

• 3:22Speaker 01

  Isn't that supposed to be a good thing for a mini series?

• 3:24Speaker 00

  A shuffle background?

• 3:26Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 3:27Speaker 00

  I think so. I didn't train, but I hear that.

• 3:31Speaker 01

  A good head, like a large-ish.

• 3:33Speaker 00

  Heads for TV.

• 3:33Speaker 01

  No, not that you do now, but like.

• 3:35Speaker 00

  Hey, it's okay. I've grown into it.

• 3:39Speaker 02

  Born in Melbourne, Pip's love of the creative was nurtured through her schooling at Steiner. But despite a starring role as Peter Pan in a school production and acceptance into the VCE drama State Showcase for her year 12 solo, Pip enrolled in a criminology degree at the University of Melbourne to follow her interest in why people do what they do. A few weeks into her degree, Pip was cast as Evelyn McGuire on Home and Away and would go on to appear in 341 episodes. After leaving Home and Away in 2017, Pip starred in Standing Up for Sunny in 2019 and in 2022, the Hallmark TV film, A Royal Runaway Romance. In 2023, Pip played Kay on The Newshreader in what is considered to be her breakout role. In 2024, Pip was Susie Lawson on Netflix Territory.

• 4:24Speaker 02

  And in 2025, broke all our hearts as Essie in The Family Next Door. I think I messaged you when that came out to say, well, that's the best acting I've ever seen.

• 4:32Speaker 00

  You did, thank you.

• 4:34Speaker 02

  Most recently, Pip stars as Sabilla in My Brilliant Career, which launched on August 13 on Netflix.

• 4:42Speaker 02

  And if that was your, if, if The Family Next Door was your breakout role, well, this is just your like, the greatest actor in the history of the world role. Most significantly, more significantly than that, however, Pip is little sister of our producer Bridget. Some of the stuff that's been written about your acting, do you read it? Cause I like, I guess before you answer that, my question that I would like to ask is like, is it nice? Like, is it nice to be the best actor in the world?

• 5:09Speaker 02

  Or is it hard or is it, do you like it?

• 5:11Speaker 00

  I don't, I mean, I don't think I'm doing.

• 5:16Speaker 01

  Why do you keep claiming that you're the best actor in the world?

• 5:19Speaker 00

  And why do they keep writing that? All the reviews are questioning your, your claim. No, it's surreal. Like I'm doing a stage production at the moment and we do eight shows a week. So I'm sort of living off, off theatre fumes. So I haven't quite had time to take in the response to My Brilliant Career. It's surreal to me that it's, that people are writing about it in this way. And I'm so happy that they are.

• 5:45Speaker 03

  For anyone who hasn't seen it, can you just give a quick description of the synopsis of the show?

• 5:52Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 5:53Speaker 00

  I'm so confused what you were doing there.

• 5:55Speaker 02

  Are you speaking code then?

• 5:58Speaker 00

  I was trying to clear my throat, but not doing it in your question so that you can edit it up, Bridget. I'm trying to make your life easier.

• 6:04Speaker 01

  That's the biggest power move I've seen so far.

• 6:10Speaker 00

  The synopsis of the show is a young woman, Sabilla Melvin, would like to be, she's in the 19th century and she has aspirations to be a writer and to have a career. But at the time, her only options are to marry and have children and be what a, what a wife, what a female should be. She also comes from poverty. So the expectations that have been placed on her, not just societally, but also through her family to, to save the family and marry. It's a story of female defiance, really. It's a love story as well, but yeah, I won't tell any spoilers, but it's about defiance.

• 6:50Speaker 03

  I also think it's all like, from my perspective, all the roles that you've played, this is like the first time that I'm like, you're playing a role that is so you. And like, she's silly, she's like headstrong, she's funny, she's just like, just leaking life out of her. Like she is so awesome and that is, that is really you as well.

• 7:12Speaker 00

  Thanks, Bridget. I think, I think the thing about this story though, is that when it was written as a book 125 years ago by Stella Miles Franklin, it was one of the first books at the time in that century to really showcase a really quirky, unique, messy, contradictory, precocious young woman that wanted a life of her own and a life on her own terms. So it did speak to a lot of people, but a lot of Australian women. And it spoke to the more sort of messy and ambitious and determined parts of themselves. And so, yes, I feel like it's close to me.

• 7:52Speaker 00

  It's probably close to the part of me before I put on sort of masks and layers to be presentable and acceptable in, in society. That's why it's so timeless and long lasting because it spoke to so many women in that capacity too. And there probably is a little Sabilla in all of us that, that before all these layers of the world were placed upon us, there's this like, this, this fire starter, this little electricity, this little passion bot that just, you know, wants what she wants for her life and will sort of bash down doors to get it and change her opinion as she goes and hungry for experiences and doesn't care about the awkward nature in terms of getting those experiences and.

• 8:37Speaker 03

  Just like unashamedly herself.

• 8:39Speaker 00

  Just unashamedly herself and, but gets smacked down because of that and then gets back up again.

• 8:43Speaker 03

  Constant rejection.

• 8:44Speaker 00

  Constant rejection.

• 8:45Speaker 01

  And it's number one at the moment, isn't it?

• 8:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:47Speaker 00

  It's number one in Australia and I think it's number four in the UK and the US and number two in Scandinavia and.

• 8:52Speaker 01

  I think.

• 8:53Speaker 00

  I think. Well, let me just.

• 8:58Speaker 00

  Read out my list. So I've been told.

• 9:02Speaker 02

  I'm not following it, but. I think it's four or whatever.

• 9:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 9:07Speaker 04

  Hi, it's Ryan from The Imperfects and I'm reaching out to you now because we need your help. Gosh darn it.

• 9:13Speaker 01

  What, why do we need?

• 9:15Speaker 04

  Sorry, no, I'm just making a plea to the listeners and viewers to ask them to subscribe to the show in whichever way they see fit because it really helps. The more subscribers, the better we can make this show. Am I right?

• 9:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I don't think we need to. I think we could just ask them politely.

• 9:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, but if I use the emotional music.

• 9:33Speaker 01

  I think the music's a bit much.

• 9:34Speaker 04

  Is it?

• 9:35Speaker 02

  Who's playing that music?

• 9:36Speaker 04

  Doesn't matter who's playing the music. The important thing is we're pulling at the heartstrings and asking them to do us a solid.

• 9:42Speaker 01

  Could we not just ask, like, just ask them straight? Like, it'd really help us if you guys subscribed because we would be able to make more of the show and make the show better.

• 9:50Speaker 04

  Oh, and not use emotional manipulation?

• 9:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, I reckon.

• 9:54Speaker 04

  Well, you can give it a go, but I doubt it'll work.

• 9:57Speaker 02

  Whenever I'm doing like research, we have guests. So like it's sent to me from Bell and Bridget will send me all these documents of like research. And what I do is I cut and paste them all and I put them into AI and I just ask it to read it to me just so I can do it while I'm driving or while I'm eating or something. And I put it in yesterday, just everything. And it, and you know how it's now, it tries to engage you in further activity and conversation. AI won't let you go. It won't just do what you ask it to or go, ah, just thinking. And then it said, Hugh, this is like, it's like suggestion to keep it said, Hugh, if she actually is Bridget's sister.

• 10:32Speaker 00

  Actually.

• 10:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know.

• 10:33Speaker 00

  You liar.

• 10:35Speaker 02

  I'm sensing the opportunity for some really fun banter here, maybe even some gentle teasing. Maybe you could ask Bridget to throw a witty but gentle barb, pips way, and see if that takes them back to their parents' living room as kids. You can then sit back and watch the show.

• 10:49Speaker 00

  Okay, gentle bridge.

• 10:51Speaker 04

  But that's actually kind of, that's sort of interesting because it's like, we haven't really explained why, why Bridge, you're here. There is like a really good reason is because like, growing up, and this is probably a pretty good segue, growing up, your experience of like being Phil's sister and how you were experiencing that in the same house and with your ambitions and your sense of self and everything, it's quite an important part of, not necessarily Phil's story, but I think the perspective that we have or you have within this show that we can give is like a unique part of the story.

• 11:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think, yeah, I think it's, it's really, it's such a weird thing to have a show that I think about and work on and own with you guys. That sort of takes up all my time. And then to have my sister be, like, we've always kind of thought it'd be great to have you on. But I think this moment that you're having at the moment, I'm like, your life right now genuinely looks so perfect. And I know, because I'm your sister, that it's not, and you've been through lots of different things. But it's like, you've now become the perfect guest to be on the show that we create every day. And it is so, it is really, it's just really wild.

• 11:59Speaker 00

  Why the intersection of that?

• 12:01Speaker 03

  Yeah. I'll come back to you here on a gentle barb, because we had.

• 12:05Speaker 00

  I already know one loser of the logies. And it's nice that you guys have a platform that the losers can come together and just talk about it for an hour. There's a real gap in the market for that. So thank you.

• 12:16Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 12:17Speaker 00

  I barfed myself.

• 12:19Speaker 02

  And it wasn't gentle.

• 12:20Speaker 00

  No, it hurt.

• 12:21Speaker 03

  That was a rough barb.

• 12:22Speaker 00

  Sorry, Bridge, you continue.

• 12:23Speaker 03

  I don't know. I think when we were kids, I think one thing that really stood out to me is that you've had this incredible ability to be fully yourself. And it was like you were born into really being, being who you are. I look back at me as a kid and we had a great childhood. I'm not saying that I struggled, but I felt, I felt like a little bit like I was always on the edge of being bullied. And I don't want to say, I was never bullied as a kid. So I don't want to like, put my, make my story about that. But I felt like I was sort of sandwiched between. So I've got Phil is my younger sister by two years. And then we have an older brother called Sam. And I felt like I was sandwiched

• 13:01Speaker 03

  between like two brilliant, charismatic, funny, just popular, gorgeous people. And not that I didn't feel that I was any of that, but just always, I guess, felt a little bit embarrassed to kind of be fully myself and always on the edge of kind of like not being able to, I don't know, I guess, find who I was or truly me between you two. One example I can think of is, I don't think I'm going to share this, but like, I felt like I was quite a highly embarrassed kid. So like always, always about to be embarrassed and like really trying to make sure I was never going to be embarrassed. And I remember

• 13:42Speaker 03

  one, one time I was probably like eight years old, maybe. And I was climbing, I loved climbing and climbing trees and things else. I was climbing on a fence and I fell and I whacked myself in the vagina so hard, like fully wedged myself. But I was too embarrassed to tell mum or anyone that I'd hurt myself there. But I was really in pain. So I made up a story about how I'd hurt myself on my knee. So I could cry about it and get sympathy.

• 14:12Speaker 00

  But not have to say vagina.

• 14:13Speaker 03

  But not have to say anything that I could be teased about later.

• 14:17Speaker 04

  I'm gonna save that for a podcast. I won't tell it now.

• 14:22Speaker 03

  Well, no, I, this is only, like, this has only come up in reflecting on Phil coming on. But then I think about you at that similar age. And Phil's favourite word ever for probably a good five year period was doodle.

• 14:35Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 14:35Speaker 03

  Like.

• 14:36Speaker 00

  You went straight there. I was gonna say, that was a secret. I didn't want to share with the world.

• 14:41Speaker 03

  Phil's favourite word was doodle. But it was, but it wasn't just that you loved that word and loved it, everything funny about it. It was that you were just, you embraced your weird quirkiness at every turn. And there wouldn't have been anything when you were little that you couldn't have gone to mum and dad about that you thought, like, you just weren't embarrassed.

• 15:00Speaker 00

  No, it's true. I don't think I had that same. I certainly had a very strong third child personality in, in terms of our, what we thought a third child was in our family. I was pretty extroverted. I wanted to be a singer dancer. I would show off a lot. I would try and make people laugh a lot. When I get my brother, when we get our older brother laughing, it was like the best thing. You'd won the lottery. And I was trying to do that at every turn. And there probably was an expense of Bridge at the middle. Because when we, me and Sam would get on a roll, get on a zinger, sometimes you would be left

• 15:39Speaker 00

  out. And we would do that to Sam, probably two. It would seem three, three, there were silly times with the three of us, but often two would gang up on one.

• 15:52Speaker 04

  Were you ever the one against the two? Like, were Bridge and Sam?

• 15:57Speaker 03

  Not as often, because when your older brother and your older sister gang up on the littlest one.

• 16:02Speaker 00

  I cried.

• 16:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 16:03Speaker 00

  It became a real issue.

• 16:04Speaker 03

  And it, yeah, or it would just be like, it would get too physical. And it was, it was an uneven team. Whereas like.

• 16:10Speaker 00

  So I was too little for it.

• 16:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, whereas us against Sam works. And Phil and Sam against me kind of works. But it would never be, yeah, we couldn't really go that way. Although we did lock you outside with your pants on once.

• 16:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:22Speaker 03

  And you peed in the veggie bush.

• 16:23Speaker 00

  Pretty embarrassed by that. Actually, I was just more mad, I think. But yeah, no, it often would become too much when it was me and I would just cry. And then it was sort of game over. Whereas you probably were quiet and internalized things a bit more and didn't just end up in tears.

• 16:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think so. But when you're a kid, you don't really know that you're doing that. Because we like, we both loved performing together. We would do.

• 16:47Speaker 00

  Charla and巴拉?

• 16:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, we played lots of silly games where we put characters on. And we both loved dancing. We both loved singing. We both loved acting. And we did a lot of that as kids together. But I think some of the hiding parts of myself probably followed me into teenage years and into high school. And then when I, like, I did drama and stuff at school and I was going through it first. And I loved performing. And I remember friends were thinking, like, you'll go into acting. But I never really believed that that was a pathway for me. But you always did, I think. I think you always felt like that was a real possibility. Whereas I felt like, I'm having fun doing this now, but this can't be a proper career or anything like that.

• 17:32Speaker 00

  I don't know. I think I didn't know. I think the, I was okay with the unknown. But it's funny, because I remember your year 12 solo performance where you did the.

• 17:44Speaker 03

  The Mermaid.

• 17:45Speaker 00

  The Mermaid. What was her name?

• 17:47Speaker 02

  Ariel.

• 17:49Speaker 03

  No, she was an Australian swimmer. I can't remember her name.

• 17:51Speaker 00

  And she crossed the channel?

• 17:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, she swam the English Channel.

• 17:54Speaker 00

  Channel. And I do remember looking at your solo being like, that is smart. The history that you've put into that, the kind of research, the dramaturgy of that is not jealous, but I didn't feel that I could, I felt like I could put, I did a solo too. And it was a comic book character. And it was much more sort of like, cool song, dancing. I think I had like a little weapons that I was throwing around. And it was much more.

• 18:22Speaker 02

  Commercially viable.

• 18:23Speaker 00

  Commercially viable, going to three seasons. Whereas Bridge did a really classy mini series. And, and I do remember thinking that, that I wish I had a bit more of that sort of.

• 18:36Speaker 03

  Really?

• 18:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:37Speaker 03

  We, because I've spoken about this on the podcast before, but I stuffed up my drama solo big time. Like, I was sort of told that this is going to be an A plus. And I had all these expectations placed on me by teachers that I was going to nail it. And then I really stuffed it up and I buried it so deep, I didn't tell anybody. And I think that was part of this, like, that's a shameful thing, hide that. But then when you came through two years later and Phil's solo was so brilliant, it got into like the top acts, like the, after you like smash it at school, it goes into like another category where it's like all the schools across Australia get to, like the top people from all across Australia get to perform it. And I remember, I don't think I had a conscious thought, but I feel

• 19:17Speaker 03

  like it was a piece of the puzzle of, oh, this is the first time as a bigger sister, as the older sister, that you've, like, you've failed at something compared to your younger sister. And yeah, I don't think that was a conscious thought, but I definitely clocked that, that's an embarrassing thing to have your youngest sister be better at this thing that you really wanted to do or you really love. Because shortly after drama in uni, I found producing. And I was like, oh, this is something that's mine. And I was good at it. And I like, I loved producing. But the better I got at producing, the more it seemed to confirm to me that I was not a performer and that that was not a pathway for me. And I even like told myself narratives of like, if you're a producer, if you're a

• 19:58Speaker 03

  real producer, you don't want to be a performer. And so I, I kind of just, yeah, became a producer in all of my identity. And kind of buried the performing part of me even further down. And I do think that's got something to do with being a little kid and not. Not being able to be like fully, living a life fully true to yourself.

• 20:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, it's not exactly the same, but I've, I've always felt, cause Hugh is like an extremely good.

• 20:27Speaker 02

  Actor.

• 20:27Speaker 01

  Cricketer.

• 20:30Speaker 02

  We should do some acting later.

• 20:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:31Speaker 02

  Finish the episode.

• 20:32Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 20:33Speaker 02

  Workshop, I could be Gertie and we could just.

• 20:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, you'd be, yep, little sister, probably big sister.

• 20:38Speaker 01

  If you, Hugh, if you can weave dramaturgy into a sentence like Phil did.

• 20:42Speaker 02

  That will be impressive. I'll be looking up after the episode.

• 20:44Speaker 00

  My brain was like, is it dramaturgy or dramaturgy? That's where my head was.

• 20:48Speaker 01

  I couldn't tell you.

• 20:49Speaker 02

  My brain said, I've never heard of either of those things.

• 20:51Speaker 00

  Bridget, Bridget's brain was just vagina, vagina, vagina.

• 20:55Speaker 03

  It's still there, to be honest.

• 20:57Speaker 01

  I never thought we'd have the vagina monologues on this show.

• 21:01Speaker 00

  Hey, it's accessible. It's a podcast for everyone.

• 21:03Speaker 01

  It's commercially viable. But with Hugh was a really, really good junior cricketer and at that point in time, one of the best in the, in the country as a teenager. And I played cricket as well and loved it. But I often felt this comfort that I knew I wasn't as good as him. And it kind of felt good to me that I knew I was never going to get to the level he did. Cause I didn't want to usurp him. I didn't want to be better than the older brother, cause it would destroy the image that I had of him. But I'm kind of curious, Phil, as your acting journey was taking off and you were getting roles, like when you got the Home and Away, which sounds like it was probably reasonably soon after this time period.

• 21:47Speaker 03

  So straight, straight after high school for you?

• 21:49Speaker 00

  Pretty much, yeah.

• 21:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, cause you're carving your own path. Was it hard or was it strange to think, I'm kind of taking what Bridge loved as well? And I'm, I'm doing this?

• 22:01Speaker 00

  To be honest, I think I didn't know how much creating and drama meant to Bridge at that stage, cause Bridge was also really good at science, which was something that I was never good at. And you were doing specialist maths and physics and.

• 22:19Speaker 03

  I was going to a real identity crisis.

• 22:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, you were just.

• 22:22Speaker 03

  I was really trying to look for something that was, that could be mine.

• 22:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 22:25Speaker 00

  And, and.

• 22:26Speaker 03

  It wasn't maths.

• 22:27Speaker 00

  And to be honest, when Bridge had these conversations with dad about specialist maths, I was like, I'm, um, I've got to super drive this clowning, this singing and dancing, because that is smart. That is something to be proud of as a parent. Like that is something that's measured, that you can say, that's a smart kid. So I think for me at that age, I didn't realise how much Bridge loved the arts. I just thought she was super genius at, um, at science, which I had not made my personality and, and was okay with not making it my personality, cause it wasn't, wasn't my passion. But there was still a part of me that would have liked to have impressed dad with, with

• 23:11Speaker 00

  those stats and, um, and anyone else that you say you're doing specialist maths to, you know, that's kind of, it rings quite nice. So when I got the opportunity of Home and Away quite quickly after school, I was pretty distracted. I was like quite, um, opened to the opportunity, just very much going to dive straight into it headfirst, didn't know anything about acting, was very hungry for the experience, probably not realising that Bridge was having these feelings.

• 23:47Speaker 01

  But what's kind of interesting is that like, I think the, a really big difference between what it sounds like between the two of you is that it sounds like Phil, you, you kind of believed, there was a part of you that like believed that you could make it as an actor.

• 24:02Speaker 00

  Absolutely. I think, yeah.

• 24:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, but like Bridge, you sort of said that you didn't think it was like a.

• 24:07Speaker 03

  No, like I, I remember in year 12, I had a friend, we were like all talking about what we were gonna do after school. And one of my friends was like, oh, Bridge, it's obvious, you'll just go into acting. And I remember thinking like, what? Like, that's not obvious at all to me.

• 24:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, cause I was, I was more like you, Bridge. I was, I did not think as a teenager, I was like, that's not me. Like as much as I wanted it, I didn't think it would ever, I thought it was like way too like weird of, abstract of a situation for, cause I knew the stats of like, you know, a billion people try and be an actor and half of one person actually gets to be one.

• 24:42Speaker 00

  I think that's because I didn't know the stats, that I was sort of freewheeling and just open to the next. I believe that I could be open to the next opportunities and I could jump on the next opportunities and I could push to try and make them happen. I had that sort of self-confidence.

• 24:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:59Speaker 00

  And I didn't have any, at that stage, I didn't have any rejection. Like I had done drama, I had got into top acts. I didn't know the statistics around rejection for actors. So I didn't have that as a fear. It was sort of ignorance is bliss at that point.

• 25:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:14Speaker 03

  Yeah. And you can't like, cause I remember when you got Home and Away and I was in, I think my second year of university and it just felt like, for me, it felt like a lightning bolt of, oh, you're, I'm not good enough. Again, even though it wasn't really about you, it was more about how lost I was feeling at the time. And I probably did do this for a bit of like, knowing I need to be happy for you, but kind of faking it, cause I didn't really know how to be. But I think it would have been really easy to go, well, everything comes easy to you. You've just gotten Home and Away. Um, and that was like, you know, four years that you did Home and Away for after that? And you really hadn't experienced any rejection really up until the end of that. But it really, like your, your story gets, I think, much more complex after.

• 25:58Speaker 00

  Oh yeah, the rejection is calming.

• 26:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 26:04Speaker 00

  I just hadn't had it yet.

• 26:06Speaker 01

  Well, your fears, I remember you telling me a story, Bridge, I'm kind of clumsily setting up a story here, but you, when Phil got the job, didn't someone in your orbit, someone in your extended family, something say something to you like, oh, that's great. Now you can, you could be, you've got something to do, you could do a hair or something like that.

• 26:21Speaker 03

  Oh yeah, it was one of my aunties and I won't say which one, cause I don't want to throw them under the bus, but I struggled with not knowing what to do even before getting into uni, cause I thought I was going to be a scientist. And then came back from my gap year, cried with the physics textbook in my hand that was bigger than my head and just was like, this is not me.

• 26:38Speaker 01

  Bigger than Phil's head?

• 26:40Speaker 03

  Not quite.

• 26:41Speaker 02

  It was that big?

• 26:43Speaker 03

  It was huge.

• 26:44Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 26:45Speaker 03

  And I was literally in tears in the library, cause I was like, if, if this isn't me, I followed this path through high school and I, I don't want this, this is not who I am. And I thought I'd take a, I had a friend who was in media and I thought, if I do that, I'll just do that with her and maybe I'll figure out where I want to be. And it's a little bit more aligned to what I like. So I started doing media and I remember telling my auntie at a family occasion, she was like, oh, great. So you'll be PIP stylist then? And I was like, okay.

• 27:12Speaker 01

  That's all I'll, yeah. Which, which is like, when people say those sorts of things, it's very rarely intended badly, but it cuts so deep.

• 27:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, well, he had that, it's really hard, I think, when there's a family story going on as well, that is sort of acknowledged, but never spoken about. And I kind of feel like in our upbringing, I've, I had a story that like Hugh was the sort of most loved by everyone in the extended family, because you're so entertaining. And I remember telling, and I can't say who it is, but I remember telling what I thought was a pretty funny story to someone in our family. And they listened to it and they said, that's so good. I'd love to hear Hugh tell that story.

• 27:52Speaker 02

  No way. Imagine if you told that story.

• 27:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. It'd be so good.

• 27:56Speaker 00

  And you did, didn't you, Hugh?

• 27:58Speaker 01

  And he's been dining out ever since. No, it just like, there are so many little clues.

• 28:03Speaker 02

  Is this the story of when you went to India and taught?

• 28:05Speaker 01

  I met this little kid, Stunzen.

• 28:08Speaker 00

  That is rough. That is so rough.

• 28:10Speaker 01

  It's funny. I think every family has these kind of storylines going on that it's really hard to shake. And I, I feel like I didn't turn up to my family gatherings, so I'm making this about me, but extended family gatherings, I reckon until I was about 30, I felt like I couldn't be myself.

• 28:26Speaker 00

  Oh, really?

• 28:27Speaker 01

  Because I just felt so, yeah, I, I just couldn't, I, I don't know. It was a mixture of embarrassment and resentment and shame that I really didn't overcome, honestly, until maybe later, maybe after having kids in this show, that I'm like, I can finally. And I remember thinking, why am I like quite fun and entertaining and relaxed around all my friends? But then I go to a family gathering and I'm just a shell.

• 28:52Speaker 00

  I remember after Home and Away, uh, and I became very unemployed and constant rejection, three or four rejections a week. And not being primed, because I had had early success, not being primed, that that was, that is the hustle and that is common.

• 29:14Speaker 00

  I remember after that period, going to family functions and feeling like the most unemployed clown and that every comment and every look from my dad especially was hard. And I, I think it's only the last couple of years that I have started to feel.

• 29:36Speaker 00

  Like I have a career to talk about that I find those functions okay. Cause it's similar, like I felt very entertaining and fun, funny and charismatic as a person. But I would enter those spaces of those family gatherings and be like, I've got nothing to talk about here. And other people are at university, other people are about to do like proper adult things. And now I'm essentially unemployed and I don't have a university degree.

• 30:04Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 30:05Speaker 00

  And I don't really know how to get out of this now.

• 30:08Speaker 03

  And this, was this also the time that you really got into your pottery?

• 30:11Speaker 00

  Yeah. And then I started to make pottery my personality and I still love pottery. And I think it's such a, all the things that I touted in terms of it being tangible and mindful and really helped me get out of my head is true. But I was certainly also using it to be like, if I get really good at pottery and I just become a pottery sensation, no one can like, of course, that's going to be my calling. Like that's, that's what I always meant to do, which is a crazy backup for acting.

• 30:44Speaker 04

  It is a crazy.

• 30:46Speaker 00

  Plan B.

• 30:47Speaker 04

  Because particularly like the way you put it is like, it's like, only will it be acceptable if I become a pottery sensation.

• 30:53Speaker 00

  Totally.

• 30:54Speaker 04

  Like it's the sensation part where it's like the thing, like what we all do, pretty much everyone here. It's just like, cause it's not a normal job, particularly acting. And like those years after Home and Away must have been so hard because I feel like, I, I think about my, like my own life in having had sort of similar type of genre jobs or ambitions. It's like, there's like two versions of me. There's like the version of me who looks forward to the question, what have you been doing recently? And then the version of me who is terrified of the question. And it's always at like a family event. It's like, oh, so how's things? And if, if I've done something publicly, then I can't wait.

• 31:35Speaker 04

  Cause I've got something that I can at least hang my hat on that will just please everyone in the room. If you haven't done that, and it's now two years since Home and Away ended, it must be really hard.

• 31:47Speaker 00

  Exactly that. Now, now I, if I get that question, I'm so ecstatic to talk about all the things that are going on. But in that period after Home and Away and standing, just standing up for, I also thought that standing up for Sunny, I got that very, quite, I've missed this part of the story, but I did get it quite quickly after Home and Away. And I thought, great, I'm an indie film actor now. Like I'm a real actor. Like even though I had, I've got nothing but gratefulness for being on Home and Away and getting what I call an apprenticeship. You'll never get that sort of technical training anywhere else in the world. Like I did learn everything from that. There was a part of me that was like, how do I get out of network?

• 32:29Speaker 03

  Soap opera.

• 32:30Speaker 00

  Soap opera.

• 32:31Speaker 03

  Shiny.

• 32:31Speaker 00

  I hope I'm not pigeonholed as just one type of character. And so when I got an independent film, I did think, oh, this is my ticket to sort of really classy.

• 32:42Speaker 04

  Being taken seriously.

• 32:43Speaker 00

  Taken seriously. It will negate the fact that I didn't get training as an actor. I will suddenly, you know, be an indie sensation, which I wasn't. And then, and then going to family functions and being asked what you're doing. Also, what happens when you're auditioning like that? You might get close to things. And that's what you hang your hat on when someone asks you that question. And you try and explain to them how many rounds of an auditions you've done and how close it was. And it was meant to be you, but it went a different way. And, and people's, they just glaze, like that's not the information. They either want to hear you got it or you didn't get it. And you're sort of, that's all you've got to tell for yourself. And, and you get to the end of those very long wind rejection stories, just trying to make yourself look a bit better.

• 33:27Speaker 00

  Just trying to make it seem like you were actually in the race. And I would often get to the end of those stories and be like, I'm out. I've just like, I've just elongated a rejection story for three minutes. This person isn't inside the industry enough to know that that was a good thing, or that was a close journey. Or what are they just, they're just hearing, did you get the job or did you didn't? And I have to end with, I didn't get the job. But you just try compensating anything that makes it sound like less of a rejection.

• 33:58Speaker 04

  Cause it's not, cause I think that's the thing that you, it's really impossible to understand. And I've never done what you do in terms of like relentlessly auditioning and like getting rejected like that. I've got rejected, but not the relentlessly auditioning. And I, and it's almost like it's, it's, this will never happen, but it's almost like there should be a world where people respect the going on despite the rejections more than getting the role. Cause once you've got the role, one, now that you're like on Netflix and my brilliant career and all the different things that are happening, people, that, that's usually when most people kind of step up and go like, oh, so proud of you. Like that's incredible. Well done.

• 34:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:37Speaker 04

  And, but actually the harder work is when you weren't getting the jobs.

• 34:42Speaker 00

  Oh yeah. And the endurance in that, like the, I was thinking about it this morning. I was thinking about the song, it's Samba, where the line is, somber, somber, I'm not, I'm not hop with it. But it's the, he sings.

• 34:55Speaker 04

  Hop with it.

• 34:55Speaker 00

  Hop with, that's what people are saying.

• 34:57Speaker 04

  Is it really?

• 34:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't know. But he sings, um, I don't want to get undressed for a new person all over again. And I was listening to that song because when you're auditioning and you're going through the rounds of auditions, it does feel like you're sort of on a metaphorical spiritual level, getting undressed, getting naked, like really bearing yourself for no money, for no compensation, for a long, often a long period of time, doing the first audition, second, third, fourth, flying over somewhere, da, da, da, doing chemistry tests. It's a long period of time. And, and it's a long period of time to feel naked. And then when you don't get it, and the hardest part for me was not necessarily not getting it.

• 35:40Speaker 00

  It was thinking, how am I going to get undressed again? Like, how do I start? How do I rinse and repeat again? Like where, how do I reset myself to have the energy to go through those rounds again? That was the hardest part, I think.

• 35:57Speaker 03

  I think what's even like even another level on top of that as well, which definitely my eyes were opened to because of what you've gone through is going through years of moments like that, years of rejection like that. But then getting a couple of roles where you were effectively cast as the, the, the person that's the lead.

• 36:17Speaker 00

  I told you.

• 36:18Speaker 03

  Yeah. But you get so, so close where it's like green light from everybody. But it's just got to go up just one more level to like, you know, the network producers or something like that. So your agent's celebrating, you're celebrating and then to get the rug pulled out from underneath you at that point.

• 36:33Speaker 04

  We're just waiting to hear back from Jeff Bezos to see if he's happy with the audition.

• 36:38Speaker 00

  Yeah. And then there was a, there was a period I had got close for a couple of American jobs. One was called Your Honor with Bryan Cranston and I had been, I'm doing it again. I had, I had been flown over there and Bryan had sent a beautiful email, but at the end of the day, I didn't get it. And I took that loss really, really hard because I thought, I think there's a, there's a real, for young Australian actors, the US is sort of like breaking into that market is sort of this elusive goal. That if you hadn't got the work that you wanted to in Australia, you go over to the US, you book something undeniable over there. And of course Australia.

• 37:19Speaker 04

  And you come back a hero.

• 37:19Speaker 00

  Yeah. Sit up straight and you come back a hero and you're going to be able to come back and do the work that you want to do. And also with a little bit of money.

• 37:26Speaker 03

  Yeah. It's like all your failures are absolved.

• 37:29Speaker 00

  So I'm not saying that's why everyone goes over there, but for me, I think that was a big part of it. I wasn't getting the work that I wanted here. And I thought exactly that, that if I just, and there was a few instances with like Your Honor and then Archive 81, where it was pretty much go, go, go. But it, it fell over for, for a number of different reasons. And then I came back to Australia and we were, it was sort of gearing into COVID. But just before COVID, we, me and my partner, my partner leads the newsreader and.

• 38:04Speaker 04

  The show, The Newsreader.

• 38:05Speaker 00

  The Australian show, The Newsreader. His name is Sam Reid. He's a terrific, beautiful actor and a beautiful partner.

• 38:11Speaker 04

  Good kisser.

• 38:12Speaker 00

  Yeah. Great kisser. That's what the people want to know. Um, that's what my family members wanted. It was crazy to it. All these functions, like I just wanted to talk about my work.

• 38:22Speaker 04

  How's Sam going? Is he still kissing good?

• 38:26Speaker 00

  Yes, but I also got close to this.

• 38:31Speaker 00

  But I, um, and he just got this really brilliant script for the newsreader. And to me, to work for the ABC, that was like, in Australia, that was like such a goal. That's classy. They're telling different stories. That was a real goal for me. And I remember we'd moved to Melbourne. I was unemployed, so I came along too. But I, I remember Sam was doing one of his first sort of Zooms with the team. And I could hear the industry just next to me, just in the next room. But after the constant rejections and the getting close to things that I felt that would maybe change my life,

• 39:10Speaker 00

  to hear the industry next door to me at that time was one of the most painful times for me. It wasn't that I was comparing myself to Sam, because I did know that we were really different in a lot of ways, but.

• 39:26Speaker 04

  What's his head size?

• 39:27Speaker 00

  It's tiny, tiny. Yeah. So small.

• 39:30Speaker 03

  Very strange for an actor.

• 39:31Speaker 04

  Interesting. You can never pick it.

• 39:35Speaker 00

  Very different for men and women, but I, I.

• 39:39Speaker 04

  That hard kissing?

• 39:40Speaker 00

  With different head sizes. Yeah. He's a bit hard, but you get around it, you know?

• 39:44Speaker 04

  He puts his head more that way.

• 39:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:45Speaker 04

  Pay him a cross in this sincere question.

• 39:50Speaker 02

  It was not, it was not. You missed that that was a joke.

• 39:59Speaker 00

  But yeah, to hear the industry next door to me at that point, the Australian industry, for some reason, that was sort of like the straw that broke the camel's back. That was one of the hardest times for me. And I think I was getting deep into pottery. Covid was starting to happen, so I thought, great, this is something that I can do at home. I was sort of just potting in the corner as Sam was like talking to the ABC and I was hearing the voices of all the people that I desperately wanted to work with. And it, it did get to a point where it was so difficult, that period. I did feel pain in a way that I hadn't felt before, that I did think, how, how do you stop this rinse and repeat?

• 40:41Speaker 00

  Like, how do I, how do I get out of this feeling? Um, I don't want to feel this anymore. I don't think I can do it anymore. Um, and it wasn't that I was comparing myself to Sam, but to hear it in the house was really hard. And to be honest, he was so conscious of that. And there's so many good parts of having a, a partner be in the industry because you've got someone that you can do brilliant tapes with, they're patient, they're supportive, they understand. Sam is the person that when I was not feeling like an actor, would make me coffees in the morning, write actor on the cup and put it down beside me. You know, he's that person.

• 41:21Speaker 02

  Had he forgotten your name or?

• 41:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, he didn't put Phil, he just put actor.

• 41:27Speaker 02

  Actor.

• 41:27Speaker 00

  Number forty-two. Yeah, not even number one on the call sheet, basically.

• 41:31Speaker 02

  That's beautiful. That's so lovely.

• 41:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, but, but it, but it was difficult, that period.

• 41:37Speaker 01

  I'm trying to sort of picture this time, and I hope this isn't a weird way of asking, but how long did this period go for of sort of feeling rejection?

• 41:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I think it was about four solid years for me. It was, so I did Home and Away, very quickly did the independent film that sort of went nowhere for me. Um, and then had four years and I, there was a part of me that likes to say it was Covid period because that makes it sound like I couldn't get a job anyway. Um, but it was before Covid. It was sort of a couple of years and then it went, we went into Covid, um, and a few more years with that. But I'd say, yeah, four or five years of the pits.

• 42:23Speaker 01

  It's a long time, yeah. And this is, is this around the time you went to New Orleans?

• 42:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:29Speaker 03

  It's so heartbreaking because I remember that time when you were in New Orleans and I remember when you came back to Melbourne and I, I remember us talking about how lost and confused you felt before kind of, I guess, things started looking a bit better. But I also remember, I think maybe, I don't, I don't know if it was maybe a year before that New Orleans period.

• 42:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:51Speaker 03

  But, and I'm so interested to ask you about this, like that, that kind of constant rejection, blow after blow over multiple years, like that has a toll, not just on your self-talk, but just on who you are, I think. And I'm really curious to know a bit more about like, what does that toll look like on you?

• 43:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think, because after that, uh, Newsreader period, and mind you, I should just say that I did end up on the Newsreader for season two and three, which was complex in itself because I got an audition the classic way, did have to jump probably through more hoops to get that role because they knew of the connection to Sam and they really wanted to make sure that I was the right actor. But to the public, it does seem, can seem like nepotism. And I did, I did read those comments, um, and that was kind of painful as well, but I do know that how hard fought for it was to get that role. But anyway, stepping you right back, back to the pain, the first season of Newsreader that I wasn't in, that place that I felt, how do I get out of this rinse and repeat

• 43:58Speaker 00

  cycle? I don't want to do this anymore. I don't want to, but I, but I also don't have any qualifications. I'm an amateur potter. I don't know what to, what to do next. I'm also like not making any money, which is a big thing as well, you know? Like, really, that is, the financial pressures of auditioning are huge. And that is another aspect of like, do I get a bar job? Do I get a normal job? Do I go back to a cafe? What will that, what will that signal to people? And, um, I remember this audition came through for this, this job that was going to be quite Australian.

• 44:37Speaker 00

  Um, and I read this role, this brief for a role had come, I'd come to my doors through, through my agent and I thought, ah, this, I can do this. And this is, I, I had got my endurance back. I'd reset my nervous system. I was ready for another audition, just, just, you know, but I, I thought, no. And that's the thing, you'd sort of, when another audition comes, that's a crazy thing about being an actor. You're like, it is, even if you're in your darkest moments, you're like, another opportunity. This is it. Like I could, you, the dream head comes back on sometimes if you're not completely, completely just, you've got one percent left in the tank. And I did again, go through all those rounds.

• 45:22Speaker 00

  Um, I was feeling like a shoo-in. I even got to the point where it was about a, a woman and two males. And I, as the woman were, was auditioning the other male roles, doing chemistry reads with the other male roles. So I felt like I also got an insight into who they wanted for the male role. So I was like, I'm definitely a shoo-in. They, they were my opinion. They want to see how I act against these two males. I know, I don't think they're auditioning that many females and, um, I was, I was getting, I was actually getting paid by casting to do those chemistry reads with the boys. So I was like, this is, I'm in. And I put everything in a hundred and ten percent. And at the last minute, there was a script change, which meant that the character that I was auditioning for had really changed in the brief.

• 46:07Speaker 00

  It was right for the story, but I was, I was no longer right for the role. And I just got dropped like that, like completely let go of, um, which is not uncommon. But I, I found out, I don't know how I found out. I found out who had been given, who the role had been given to. And I remember.

• 46:24Speaker 02

  It was Sam.

• 46:25Speaker 00

  It was Sam with a wig on.

• 46:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's rough.

• 46:29Speaker 00

  Okay, yeah. And it was really, and I love him a lot, but, and he kept putting actor down the coffee cup and I thought, this is cruel now, this is cruel. No, but I, um, and I found out, and it signals to me that I was in a really low point because I was obsessive with looking at the woman's Instagram. Um, and, and I was, it was almost sadistic. I was waiting to see her celebrating the role. I was waiting for a moment of like, anything, not even like, I got the role, even if it was like a, a photo outside the casting room and I could tell that it was the hallway. There was something sadistic that I wanted to see.

• 47:09Speaker 02

  You're obsessed with it.

• 47:10Speaker 00

  I was obsessed and, and I don't know why, because it would have been really painful to have seen the confirmation that she had taken the role and she was happy about it. And mind you, she had, would have had no idea of the story before getting the role. She would have just put her eggs in the basket, done her best job and got the role. But I did get obsessed. And then what happened was I was looking so much, I would say I was checking her Instagram like three or four, five times a day at that time. Now in hindsight, I know that something must have glitched with her Instagram, but for some reason, or reception dropped, or I don't know what happened, but I couldn't see, I couldn't see her profile page all of a sudden. I couldn't, she had a public profile page, I couldn't see it.

• 47:52Speaker 00

  It was, looked like it had turned private to me, which I now know it hadn't, but it, it just, I don't know what happened. I couldn't see it. And instantly, I didn't even check again, instantly I was like paranoid. I thought, she knows that I'm watching, she's blocked me, this loser is watching. I like need to stop her, this is too much. I even, this is probably one of my most embarrassing moments. I even told my agent, so-and-so actor has blocked me, I can't watch their stories anymore, which now I'm like, why did I say that to my agent? That's so embarrassing. Um, and luckily my agent, Catherine Pulten, who is amazing, didn't call me out for being

• 48:37Speaker 00

  paranoid at that moment. She didn't say, you gotta stop looking, something's wrong with you. She just, she just listened to what I had to say, but she also didn't feed it. She wasn't like, oh, she has, let me check, da, da, da, ba, ba, ba. Um, so that was really well handled on her part. But I did, I, now I know this actor that got the role and she's a big fan of mine. I'm a big fan of hers and we talk, I've never actually shared this story with her. I think I'm actually too embarrassed to still do it. But I do feel for me at that point because it was such a level of paranoia. I was totally convinced that she had, um, blocked me to the point where I told my agent

• 49:22Speaker 00

  about it, which now I'm like, oh, why?

• 49:25Speaker 03

  It's like the hardest thing for me, hearing that story is the, um, is the, you checking the Instagram obsessively, waiting for her to celebrate? Because it's like you were seeking some kind of punishment or some kind of wanting to make yourself feel worse than you already felt. And I know, I know how bad you felt, um, at that moment.

• 49:47Speaker 00

  I don't know if it was a, if I intellectually was seeking further pain. I think I probably was on a level, but I was just stuck in a cloud of obsession of, so I couldn't, I couldn't tell you why I was doing that to myself. I don't know if it was that I also wanted confirmation that it was over, because I think as an actor, sometimes it's over and you don't believe it. You think, but if someone drops out, I'm the next in line, even if it's not accepted. There's also this long running thought of not letting something go until you see it on screen, which is hard to live in as well.

• 50:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, for me it feels a bit more like, um, if you've been in a relationship and the relationship ends and you find out your ex-partner's met someone else, take a pretty strong person to not check out the other person's Instagram page and learn more about like they're living the life that I want to be living. I feel like it's just a very natural, like such a natural response.

• 50:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, don't know why we do it.

• 50:49Speaker 02

  I think, I think a lot of people would have done that in your shoes.

• 50:52Speaker 01

  I think it's a really cool thing to hear about this because I, I, I, I don't really know, like that it gets, I know that it can get dark, but I think you've painted like a really.

• 51:03Speaker 04

  Really good picture of like how dark and like lonely it it gets.

• 51:08Speaker 00

  I think lonely is the right, oh, I feel emotional. Like, cause I am in a moment of, I am in a moment of big, for me, big success. Um, you know, not comparatively to other people, but to me, that's what it feels like. And I think it comes because, I feel this way because it comes, I know what it felt to be lonely in the industry. And it's also one of those jobs where it's so hard to explain to friends and family if you're not going through it. It's easy to explain the glitzy bits, attending the logies, wearing a nice dress, getting awards, doing press, getting reviews, that kind of thing. That's easy. But to actually explain the, how do you get to the job part and the the rejection part?

• 51:53Speaker 00

  And why you're not doing a normal job because you need the freedom at any moment to be able to audition for something? And not go to the family events or not see your brother and sister for a long period because you've just got to put all your eggs in the basket. And you've got to concentrate really, really hard because if you don't, you might let a life-changing opportunity pass you. And then to deal with the fact that it doesn't work out. But yeah, it's it's extremely lonely. And then you talk to other actors about it. And often that is not the best thing to do because they are feeling that way too. And it can just become a bit of a toxic loop of complaining about the industry.

• 52:33Speaker 00

  And just two pained people kind of spitting back at each other and and trying to find comfort in that way. Which is not always that healthy either.

• 52:44Speaker 03

  What is, um, like when you're in that moment in New Orleans and you're really low? And you're wishing this hopeless feeling kind of will stop and you're feeling desperately lonely. What is low, like what is, what does it feel like? Like what physical feelings do you feel when you feel lonely?

• 53:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, this is one that I think you know, Bridge, and and we've spoken about this. But it was only recently that I realised it was probably connected to lots of moments where I had anxiety and felt lonely. But I noticed it in New Orleans that I was starting to, I think there's a word for it, what's it, trickle, trickle mania?

• 53:24Speaker 04

  Mania.

• 53:24Speaker 00

  Trickle mania. I was starting to constantly pull at my hair and pull out my parts of my hair. Yeah, and I was getting little sort of bald patches and little um spiky bits where it was growing back. And luckily I have a lot of hair.

• 53:41Speaker 04

  So can you explain why, why, why was that happening?

• 53:43Speaker 00

  It was like a, I think it was a standby body anxiety thing that when I was anxious. It was a subconscious thing that I was just sort of, it was, it's like picking at your skin or picking at your eyebrow or picking at your lip. I would just do it sort of subconsciously on standby, but I noticed I'd do it in the moments that I was not feeling good and not having a lot to do. And, and when I think about the fact that I started to do it a lot in New Orleans again, and to the point that I started noticing it. And I started Googling it on Insta, well, I started Instagramming it. And I would see videos of people doing the same thing, but it was horrific to see those videos.

• 54:21Speaker 00

  Cause people had to, to stop it. They had to shave off their whole head so that they had nothing to pull. And I was freaking out as an actor being like, well, I can't shave off my head, but I can't stop doing this. And um, so I would get like, I would read online that, you know, you get a lacquer band and um, you'd pull the lacquer band anytime so that you diverted the pain somewhere else and you didn't need to do it. Um, didn't need to do your tick. And I would think about when I was young and we were going through.

• 55:00Speaker 00

  We had stressful moments as kids when our parents were getting a divorce and our brother had some challenges in his older life. And now I think about my brother actually gently from a good place, but he did, good place from a young place. He would tease me when I was young about having bald patches. And I realised, it was the first time in New Orleans that I realised it was the same thing. I was getting bald patches again. I'd never sort of put two and two together that I was doing it as an adult. Um, but I had these vague memories of being teased for having bald patches on my ginormous head. Luckily I have a lot of surface area to grow more hair, hair back.

• 55:42Speaker 02

  So are you, sorry, so you're saying as a kid you had trickle money, you were doing the same thing?

• 55:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I didn't, I didn't know till I was an adult that that was what I was doing as a kid. But then, yeah, I would start to do the lacquer band, trying to strike myself that way. That didn't really work. Um, then, I don't know, I think luckily I was in New Orleans. Cause there's this sense in that city that it's quite a magic city and it's very spiritual. And, you know, it's the intersection of jazz and music and nightlife and culture and um, magic. Um, and I started journaling for the first time in New Orleans. And I started sort of um, waking up, going to the cafe across the road in the morning, getting out of the house.

• 56:31Speaker 00

  Sam was getting ready for work and doing his thing and.

• 56:34Speaker 04

  Like a show off?

• 56:34Speaker 00

  Like a show off. And I started um, journaling and putting down on paper. Not so much what I was feeling, but what roles, what I'd like to do, who I'd like to work with. And I also started taking more care of my body because I knew I was having a body anxiety response. I started going to yoga quite religiously and trying to calm down my nervous system. That is the one thing that I have learnt from a young age as a actor. Is that when my nervous system is in overdrive, it's important for me to do body things to, to, to bring it back down.

• 57:15Speaker 00

  And sort of to connect, get out of the mind and and connect back with the body. And that's a part of the endurance. I would, when I felt that I needed to get undressed again and go through the loop again. I knew I had to set my, set my body back, otherwise I couldn't take on another rounds of auditions. So I started doing that in New Orleans as well. And then out of nowhere. And I don't know, I don't know if this is the magic of the city. I don't know if it was because I was starting to like, accept where I was and just do some things to calm myself down. Um, but I got an offer for, an offer. And I was not at the, I was not at the stage of getting offers. Hopefully that's been made clear.

• 57:59Speaker 04

  And an offer means that you don't have to audition.

• 58:01Speaker 00

  You don't have to audition. It's just a straight up financial offer to, for a role in a, in a film. And it was the Hallmark film. And I think because uh, it was shooting in Canada. And I was in New Orleans, which is only a four hour flight. It was COVID time. So someone had dropped, dropped out for COVID reasons and I got this offer.

• 58:21Speaker 04

  And so a Hallmark movie, let me just try and explain what it is for people who don't know what it is. Because people know what Hallmark cards are, but Hallmark cards have a Hallmark channel in America, like a cable channel. That's right, isn't it? And it's like every week they have a new film. So they are churning out movie. It's like the movie version of Home and Away, basically.

• 58:40Speaker 00

  I think they do about forty films a year and they have different seasons. So they're really well known for their Christmas. Sort of rom com cheesy, family, feel good seasonal movies. But we were in, I think, a springtime season, which was um, which were, which I love stories and like ours was a road trip.

• 58:59Speaker 04

  But very easy to watch.

• 59:01Speaker 00

  Super easy, non-effensive.

• 59:03Speaker 04

  Same storyline.

• 59:04Speaker 00

  Same formula. There's always like a meet cute, meet cute? Is that what it's called? Meet cute?

• 59:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think that's the phrase.

• 59:10Speaker 00

  Is that the phrase? And then like a near kiss and then a kiss, always the same sort of, and then a happy ending.

• 59:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 59:22Speaker 00

  All right then, after, after nine P M.

• 59:25Speaker 02

  I haven't seen this before.

• 59:27Speaker 00

  In it Phil plays a modern day princess from a made up country called Bunbury. But I went as hard as anything else. I thought this is, I don't get opportunities. Uh, this is an opportunity. I spent way too much money that I didn't have on coaching. On voice lessons to get this dialect, this transatlantic sort of made up Bunbury accent. I, I went as hard as I would for a, you know, a Martin Scorsese film for, for. And I was re, I was so grateful to just have the opportunity. And then sort of wo, work, I say work but gets work.

• 1:00:06Speaker 00

  But I think because it had, because I was having a, like when I started Home and Away, a new experience. I was getting a new taste. I was getting my confidence back a little bit. The, the shoot had gone successfully. I'd, I'd met so many lovely people doing it. I was starting to believe again that I could be in the industry.

• 1:00:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, and you're doing the work, like doing the job.

• 1:00:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I had money, like a bit of money back in my pocket. Um, to be able to like reinvest in myself and do some more training and um. And then from there, the second series of newsreader audition came through. And I was just ready enough to try as hard as I could to kind of.

• 1:00:53Speaker 04

  Almost like the confidence you got from the Hallmark thing helped you with that.

• 1:00:56Speaker 00

  Definitely.

• 1:00:57Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:00:57Speaker 00

  And then it sort of rolled, rolled from there. Um, but it wouldn't have rolled from there if I hadn't have put, you know, every inch of myself into that.

• 1:01:10Speaker 02

  So I've listened to this. I know this is chat about siblings and I, I can't help but think about this from a parent's point of view. And I'm, you know, an uncle point of view. And I'm, I'm sort of picturing our kids sort of growing up and trying things and, and following their own passions and interests and talents. And I'm just, and I'm sort of picturing, you know, uh, uh, they're not, not, there'll be a time where some of them are flying, others are struggling a bit. Interested to know from your point of view, having lived it, what, what, what's the best thing to say? The, you know, the best way to be if you feel like your child or a child in the family is, um, potentially not where they want to be.

• 1:01:53Speaker 02

  Um, but you want to check in on them. You want to take an interest, but you don't want to make them feel like they haven't lived up to expectations. External expectations.

• 1:02:04Speaker 00

  Yeah. Tricky one, because when you're, when you're feeling so fragile, there's a lot of things that you could ask, that you could internalise as a barb that I, that is not. You know, because I, I thought, I thought then, when I was listening to you, I was like, well, maybe I wanted someone just to ask me how I was. But actually, in honesty, if someone had have asked me how I was, I would have gone, why? Am I pulling a funny face? Did you read something? Is it, is it because I'm not employed? Like, I would have taken, I would have taken that as, as a, a failure quest, leading question as well. And I know, like, not to single you out, Bella, you, Auntie Frank, who's Bella's mum,

• 1:02:46Speaker 00

  would always talk to me and about me as being, just being a creative that was pursuing a creative life and how exciting that was. That, um, that was my point of difference from some of the family members. But not asking me, talking more about the, the passion that I had, not asking me about the product, about what was coming out or, or, or what I had been shooting or hadn't been shooting. It was more just, um, just talking to me about my, my love.

• 1:03:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:25Speaker 00

  And my interest and, um, and, and not having any sense that it needed to be monetised or, um, anything more than that. Just, yeah. Um, because now I think, now I know, particularly through doing my brilliant career, that I think through my brilliant career, I, I feel, and it's not just through the success, it's actually through the story of female, female defiance and carving out a creative life of her own. I've really learnt that, like, I am a creative, whether I make money from it or not. Um, and maybe it's, maybe it's not only because I'm fearful that that's all I know. Maybe, maybe now I know that it is because I'm a creative on the inside.

• 1:04:11Speaker 00

  And, and that's what Auntie Frank did for me. She just talked to me about the creative on the inside, rather than, um, the projects.

• 1:04:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's really nice.

• 1:04:23Speaker 01

  When you were in New Orleans and you're doing these things to get your body and mind right, I guess, did you by any chance sort of get to a point where you were at a level of acceptance? If this whole thing doesn't work out?

• 1:04:40Speaker 00

  Yeah. I think one of the complex things about having just gone to New Orleans is that it put that thought on standby for a second. Like, in terms of having to actually work out if this, if I do accept that this is not going anywhere. And I'm not saying this is healthy. I think it was actually quite detrimental in a lot of ways and put a lot of pressure on our relationship. But it was almost like I was desperate to go over and be overseas because I didn't have to actually deal with the consequences. So it wasn't really an acceptance.

• 1:05:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:14Speaker 00

  It was like a standby, like I was going to, I was just, I didn't have to, yeah. I didn't have to talk to anyone I knew, didn't have any friends or family over there. I was just gonna be away for four or five months and, yeah.

• 1:05:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I can put that on, yeah.

• 1:05:30Speaker 00

  So no, not a, not a real acceptance yet.

• 1:05:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay.

• 1:05:36Speaker 02

  So at the start of the interview, we were talking about, like, your belief in yourself and how you just threw yourself at the industry, just with full belief it was gonna work out. When you were not getting jobs, did you lose confidence in yourself? Or did the confidence go, like, did, did, yeah, did you ever doubt yourself?

• 1:05:54Speaker 00

  Oh, definitely.

• 1:05:55Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:05:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, definitely. When I was getting constant rejection, I definitely thought, oh, man, I've fallen into this at a young age. I've got some success very early, but actually now everyone's gonna find out that I wasn't made for this. I mean, fear is a crazy motivator. It was also that fear that made me keep going at it again and again with doubt. Like, but I just didn't know what else, I just didn't know what else to do.

• 1:06:30Speaker 01

  What was the biggest fear?

• 1:06:33Speaker 00

  Snakes.

• 1:06:36Speaker 02

  Cool, move on.

• 1:06:40Speaker 00

  No, I think the, the biggest, I think the biggest fear to me, and maybe this brings back to

• 1:06:47Speaker 00

  that this interesting parallel that we're talking about at, um, the end of school and what Bridge was going through, but maybe also what I was sort of going through, but no one really knew. One of the biggest fears for me, coming from the family that we do come from, that's very educated and academic and to me seems, oh, sort of super smart, um, was that I was going to not make it in this crazy industry. And then, and also just be a complete dropout. Not have any training, be, be thirty years old, not have an education, not have a pathway. And then also, if I did change and go back to university, doing another four years

• 1:07:32Speaker 00

  till I could actually tell people that I had a job or a specialist career.

• 1:07:37Speaker 03

  And then, like, yeah, the fallout is that you're a failure at life. And I didn't realise till very recently how much of my drive to succeed in this industry was driven by, like, that's called a defensiveness, protectiveness of like, get something of your own, find your own path and build it and have that. So, yeah, when you go to those functions or just so that you can go to sleep at night and be like, yep, I'm on.

• 1:08:01Speaker 00

  I thought you were gonna say, just looking at your rejection really fuelled me to have something of my own, to not be a loser like you.

• 1:08:12Speaker 03

  No, I, I, because I actually think, well, I mean, at that, we're going back to where we were, you know, at the end of school, you just got home and away and I'm feeling really lost. Um, and like, I don't have anything of my own. I think there was probably a choice to not harden around, uh, your success at that time and get resentful at you. I think there was a choice to go, I'm gonna listen to you and see the full story of what you're about to go into. And then that included all the struggles that came afterwards as well. So I think that is one big piece of like, not hardening around, uh, I guess envy or comparison. Uh, you know, if there's anyone who's feeling like they're in the position of feeling a bit like a loser and a bit of a failure, especially compared to another sibling.

• 1:08:56Speaker 03

  There was one moment where I was at uni and you were on Home and Away and you'd been on Home and Away for a couple of years. And I was in my final year of uni, probably peak, um, not really feeling like I knew what I was doing, but kind of moving in some direction. One of my subjects was like, go out and find an internship. Um, so I asked you if I could come to Home and Away and do my internship on Home and Away. And I must have had to swallow some ego and pride to go do that. But I think it was actually one of the best things to move from comparison to feeling genuinely happy for everything that you've gone on to do. Because I got to Home and Away and I got to just be around people creating something great.

• 1:09:39Speaker 03

  But I also got to see how brilliant you were and how everyone respected you and how, I just got to see this working environment where my eyes were really opened to it all. But I do think you can easily go down a path of years of feeling resentful um, about, you know, what you didn't get or what you didn't go after or what you didn't do. But I think if you can push that aside and just put yourself in more of the, the light of that person and be able to see, uh, everything about them, um, it does lead you to a place of feeling really, genuinely really happy. So there, at some point along the line, I, I remember I didn't have to fake feeling happy for your successes. And I, I don't know when that happened, but I do remember after Home and Away,

• 1:10:22Speaker 03

  when you did get that indie film and you called me, and I think I was the first person you called. And I just felt like a lightning bolt of joy. And I'm so glad I'm, I feel like this.

• 1:10:33Speaker 00

  Yeah. And on that too, it's so, it is an amazing intersection right now because I did just go to the Logies and, um, was nominated but lost to the incredible Audio Carbon, who you've had.

• 1:10:46Speaker 02

  Good person to lose to.

• 1:10:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, great person who did a brilliant speech and made a brilliant show.

• 1:10:51Speaker 02

  And who also thinks you're brilliant. She said that on our show.

• 1:10:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, she is. That's so nice. That's wild. Because she's like such an idol that I've grown up watching and, and don't know personally. But when I lost at the Logies, uh, she came, we were sitting very close to each other and she was holding a Logi going back to her chair. And the first, I said, congratulations. And the first thing she said to me was, I love your sister.

• 1:11:16Speaker 00

  And I was like, okay, um, yeah, commiserations to me too. And I will fight you in the car park. Let's go. Um, but it made me also so proud of this intersection right now that I could be at an industry event and be, you know, nominated and be in a great position promoting a show. Um, but the, the, these formidable people that I'm talking to are talking about you and what you're making and the impact that you, you all are having on the world.

• 1:11:47Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:11:48Speaker 00

  But it is a beautiful moment now for me to, not only Bridge, but to hear about, um, the, the two worlds, you all to, to hear the crossover of, of the worlds right now. I couldn't be sort of more proud of the journey that we've been on and the challenges and, um, and but at the core of it, like, keeping our relationship intact.

• 1:12:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's the most important thing. And I, I do feel like I'm doing the work right now that is the most true to me than I've ever done. Um, and I think that's largely thanks to you guys and this show. Um, but yeah, it's such a joy to have my sister here.

• 1:12:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, and Bella.

• 1:12:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, not to, like, to hear you guys speak about each other. I think, I mean, no one would know outside this room, but I think Phil, you're probably the person who's come to more of our live shows than anyone. And as much as I'd love to think that it's to watch us, I know every single time it's to support your sister. And it's like, it's so beautiful.

• 1:12:46Speaker 02

  You also bought tickets for all those events?

• 1:12:48Speaker 00

  I did, I did. And I bought merch every time I went. Which kept telling me that I didn't have to spend fifty dollars. But yeah, I mean, even, I just loved the last time that you were in, uh, Newcastle.

• 1:12:59Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:13:00Speaker 00

  And I think you too, your plane was delayed.

• 1:13:03Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, that was it.

• 1:13:05Speaker 01

  And it was a stressful day.

• 1:13:05Speaker 00

  Stressful. And I got to be the stand-in.

• 1:13:09Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:13:11Speaker 00

  Until you got there and, and also costumes hadn't arrived and me and Bridge and went around and Josh and we, and Belle and we went to get, and George, and we went to get, um, the costumes and we went to the off shops. And it was just so much fun being supportive in, in that way and, and helping out. So you guys really, you owe me big time.

• 1:13:33Speaker 02

  That's what this is all about.

• 1:13:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, that wasn't free, by the way. I'm invoicing for that. I'm an expensive standard.

• 1:13:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, just to say that, like, watching your supportive Bridge and the way Bridge talks about you, I find it's so inspiring as a sibling. It's one of the best relationships I've ever seen between siblings and it's like the real honour and privilege for everyone to hear, hear it today and hear how beautiful you both are towards each other and as people. So it's been, it's just so special and so I feel so privileged to know you both.

• 1:14:12Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 1:14:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:15Speaker 04

  Lovely.

• 1:14:15Speaker 02

  I've got nothing to add to that. I usually have to finish the show, but like that was the, it's the most beautiful finish. So this has been like a long time coming, but you are here at the perfect moment. And I just feel excited to know, like, whatever the next for you, I don't know what it's going to be, but it's going to be fucking massive. So.

• 1:14:31Speaker 00

  Might be a whole lot of pottery.

• 1:14:35Speaker 00

  You still love me?

• 1:14:39Speaker 02

  Not as much.

• 1:14:43Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 1:14:43Speaker 02

  Thanks for joining us, Pip.

• 1:14:44Speaker 00

  Thank you. It's such a pleasure to be here.

• 1:14:48Speaker 01

  You may remember earlier in the app that Hugh challenged Pip to an act off.

• 1:14:54Speaker 02

  We should do some acting later to finish the episode. I'd love to just workshop her. I could be Gertie and we could just.

• 1:15:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, you'd be, yep, little sister. I'll be big sister.

• 1:15:03Speaker 01

  Don't worry, it did go ahead and it's even weirder than you might have imagined.

• 1:15:06Speaker 00

  Would you like me to ask Harry Beecham if you could touch him on the chest?

• 1:15:12Speaker 02

  I want to love him.

• 1:15:15Speaker 01

  You can hear that, plus episodes of our subscriber show, A Little More Imperfects, and also a brand new show that Bridge and myself have started, A Little More Questions, at patreon.com/theimperfects. If you want a little more but don't want to pay any more, then you can join our newsletter at theimperfects.com.au. And while you're there, you'll be able to see the names and faces of all the incredible people who help make this show. A show made on the lands of the Wurundjeri Wurundjeri people and we pay our respects to elders past and present. The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you're struggling, please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 13 11 14.