I Tried No-Sleep-Parenting For 10 Months

What impact does sleep deprivation really have on your wellbeing? What about your parenting? What about your identity? Matt D’Avella has amassed over 4 millions subscribers on YouTube undertaking 30-day wellness challenges, and promoting his minimalist lifestyle. In life that was meticulously controlled, having kids changed everything. 💌Join 9,400+ others in our newsletter community - http://bit.ly/45NyQDy Blessed with a baby who woke every 30 minutes for the first ten months of their life, Matt chats to Hugh, Ryan and Josh about how becoming a new parent impacted every facet of his life. Hugh and Josh share just how lonely they have felt at different times during their parenting journey, and Ryan saves the day by holding a baby for a full 40 minutes (save the applause! please!) Matt this was a dream come true. To watch the full episode on YouTube - https://youtu.be/foilZTRGXco 00:00 - I Tried Being Vulnerable for 30 Days 7:03 - Minimalism Maxxing 18:00 - The Vulnerabilitea House 20:25 - Becoming a father, losing sleep (and himself) 24:14 - Depression Diagnosis Wake-Up Call 32:56 - Hugh's Sleep Score 40:38 - SOS: Hiring Help, Expanding your Village 48:50 - Sleep Training: What Actually Works 52:02 - The Real Cost of Sleep Deprivation 58:29 - Being A Mum: The Additional Burden 1:01:32 - 'Do You Regret Having Kids?' 1:04:00 - The New and Improved Matt D'Ad-Avella 🫖Other Imperfects episodes mentioned in this episode Dr Edna Lekgabe - New Baby… New Brain… Matrescence - https://bit.ly/4zVt9Si 📺 Things to watch Minimalism Documentary - https://bit.ly/3SSZb0t Why I disappeared - Matt D’Avella - https://bit.ly/3SwYA4g Matt D’Avella YouTube - https://bit.ly/4wOzFXW 💤 Things to sleep train Tresillian Sleep Organisation - https://bit.ly/4zAGTS5 The Ferber Sleep method - https://bit.ly/4iCdqB4 Masada Sleep School - https://bit.ly/4qNi7uc 📚Things to read Regretful Parents subreddit - https://bit.ly/4gx9W0b 🩷To host your own Vulnerabilitea House, purchase here - theimperfects.com.au/shop 🩵To purchase our journal (or your novel) My Imperfect Life, click here - theimperfects.com.au/shop 🩵To join our subscriber community, A Little More Imperfects, follow this link - patreon.com/theimperfects 🩷 AND you can subscribe to A Little More Imperfects through Apple Podcasts http://apple.co/theimperfects The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Have you had any joyful moments in the past week? No? Do you often have feelings of anger or resentment? It was like every single one, it was clear that I was going through something serious.

• 0:14Speaker 01

  Matt D'Avella made a name for himself on YouTube.

• 0:17Speaker 00

  My name's Matt, so I've been a minimalist for over 14 years.

• 0:20Speaker 01

  Amassing an enormous audience who eagerly watch as he puts himself through more and more uncomfortable but controlled self-development challenges.

• 0:30Speaker 00

  I think I started with cold showers for 30 days and then I did, you know, quitting social media for 30 days and then meditating for 30 days.

• 0:37Speaker 01

  But his greatest challenge was something he couldn't control.

• 0:42Speaker 00

  That was just like the beginning of this 10-month period where my wife and I just got no sleep day after day.

• 0:51Speaker 01

  He describes the extreme effects of sleep deprivation on new parents.

• 0:56Speaker 00

  I was diagnosed with depression at that time. My wife was diagnosed with PTSD. It progressively got worse and worse. And so it went from him waking up five times a night to him waking up 15, 20 times a night, which is basically every 30 minutes. I'm a bit of a perfectionist and I think when I'm faced with these kind of challenges, I go to anger, which is something that I was quite ashamed of in those moments, just being so angry to be put in that position, to feel like it was so unfair.

• 1:24Speaker 01

  It's a feeling every parent understands.

• 1:27Speaker 02

  It's the loneliest feeling in the world.

• 1:28Speaker 01

  And something we can all relate to. Friends of ours just had a baby and she's three weeks old. And so she could go and, you know, have time for herself. I was holding the baby and I held the baby for like 40 minutes. Hero. Yeah, well done, man.

• 1:52Speaker 02

  Well, I'm very excited today because we are joined by someone whose content I have been consuming. It actually reminds me of when I first discovered Bluey, how much I watch Bluey. I've just been doing the same thing to Matt D'Avella.

• 2:03Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 2:04Speaker 02

  Who is a YouTuber. And I have to say, I feel like I need to say straight after I said YouTuber, one of the good guys. He is one of the good guys.

• 2:11Speaker 00

  We've got some baddies out there.

• 2:12Speaker 02

  There is some, there is some real baddies at the moment. Uh, and you know, one of the real goodies.

• 2:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:17Speaker 02

  Uh, Matt D'Avella, now how many YouTube followers now? Is it like four million and?

• 2:21Speaker 00

  I passed four million last year. Yeah.

• 2:24Speaker 02

  Goodness me.

• 2:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, I would say from watching your stuff recently, a lot of the time I'm on YouTube, vast majority when I finish, I feel a bit yuck and a bit like, oh, well, that was such a waste of time. What am I doing? I felt really good. I feel really good after I watch your stuff. I feel like, it just feels like that was nice.

• 2:41Speaker 01

  Wholesome content.

• 2:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, just wholesome, but also a full meal. I felt like it was good for my brain.

• 2:45Speaker 00

  Um, whereas I feel like, and maybe that's because everyone else is like just going,

• 2:50Speaker 02

  smashing with dopamine at every opportunity, but yours is like, you get rewarded for watching it properly.

• 2:56Speaker 01

  So I thought AI was going to kill us last year. So now you're saying it's next year? When is AI going to kill us all?

• 3:03Speaker 00

  And I'm not to get too far into the YouTube world, but I do think that there's a huge difference now and a huge opportunity for creators to focus on long form where short form, it's, it's easy to replace. Like AI is kind of like becoming harder to distinguish and understand in the short form. I just don't think that they, they can reproduce the same quality and the same connection in long form. And I do think that's where like, you watch a long form YouTube video and if it's meaningful and thoughtful, you can, you can kind of pause. You're not going, oh, what's the next one? What's the next one? What's the next one? You can just be like, let me think about what I just watched.

• 3:38Speaker 02

  We are in the tea house, so we're here to draw a card, but before, there's a couple of things I want to ask you before we get to the card. So the other thing you're really well known for is minimalism. So in 2014, you directed a Netflix documentary on minimalism. So I'm interested to know about that, but I'm also interested to know about the series you did where you, for 30 days, you would try different, um, would you call them health trends or health fads or?

• 4:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, like self-development trends.

• 4:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. So can we start there? So how many did you do in total? Do you know?

• 4:07Speaker 00

  I did, this was kind of at the peak of, of my YouTube channel and when it was really taking off. Like it started with minimalism content and talking about simple living and, um, that was very popular back then, still is. And then, yeah, I started making these self-development experiments where it was like, I think I started with cold showers for 30 days and then I did, you know, quitting social media for 30 days and then meditating for 30 days. But I probably ended up doing about 14 or 15 of them in the initial sprint of making these videos.

• 4:38Speaker 02

  Okay. So just looking back on them, if you had to go back and choose three of them that you would, that you felt were really good for you, like you felt this is something that can really improve our life, could you pick three?

• 4:53Speaker 00

  Meditation for sure. I say that even though I don't meditate, like these days I don't have as much time to meditate. Uh, I will, will try to find these moments of silence in between the craziness of parenting and being a creator. You recently, I did do power lifting, but I would say what's tied to that too is just like an exercise habit. For me, lifting weights has, has really been one of those things that has, I've always come back to. For me, that is actually quite a meditative practice. Sometimes I don't even listen to music at the gym. It's just a time where I can just be by myself and, and work out. And the third one, I don't know. Cause it's like, again, it's like, it's so funny looking back at all these experiments

• 5:37Speaker 00

  because it was like, this was before I had kids. And I don't even think I could do these now with two kids. And I, you know, and I actually, I feel like a little bit cringe when I look back at it where I think I was just a little bit starry eyed. I had so much spare time, like I could, like even for some reason, cold showers, it's not adding much time to your day. You can just do it in the shower, but like just the mental load of thinking about.

• 6:01Speaker 01

  Handling enough stuff.

• 6:01Speaker 00

  Yeah. And like, don't take away just one more thing, like one piece of joy that I have in the day. Like that, uh, you know, 10 minute warm shower, hot shower is just like that to me. Don't take that away. And so I do think like, we are also entering into a phase where I think people are noticing the over-optimization and we're trying to do too much. And so it's like, these days I'm just focusing on quality connection time with my family, lifting if I can.

• 6:28Speaker 01

  For longer than 30 days.

• 6:32Speaker 00

  I did do a video, I tried being a dad for 30 days when I first became a dad. Yeah.

• 6:36Speaker 01

  You had to continue?

• 6:38Speaker 00

  Yes, yeah, yeah. And, um, but, uh, yeah. And then, you know, just trying to find little pockets of time. Cause at the end of the day, like I'll be lucky to have 30 minutes to 45 minutes to myself, um, every day. And so when you're looking at these 15 to 20 habit experiments I tried, there's no room for 99% of them.

• 6:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:57Speaker 02

  And minimalism. So that's something that was, you said before, it's still very popular. Can you explain that to people who don't know what it is?

• 7:05Speaker 00

  Yeah. I think, you know, I learned about this idea of minimalism back in 2010. I just graduated from university. I had a hundred thousand dollars in student debt.

• 7:17Speaker 02

  What did you study, brother?

• 7:18Speaker 00

  Uh, broadcast and telecommunications. And so it was really about like, you know, sports broadcasting and news broadcasting. And then I just kind of branched off and started doing filmmaking on the side. I, I was in this place where I was, I moved into my parents' basement. I was, uh, in all of this debt. I was trying to figure out my way and, um, I also felt this like deep desire and urge to prove to everybody that I was successful. Cause I was like so buried in debt. I had this weight of a hundred thousand dollars in student loans. I was living in my parents' basement where like the roof wasn't even complete. It was just like, and I was just surrounded by a bunch of crap, like a bunch of stuff that I had that, that I didn't really find meaning, a closet filled with clothes that I didn't use.

• 8:01Speaker 00

  And then it was, you know, it was just like online and came across a couple of blogs that were talking about this thing called minimalism, which was the intentional pursuit of less. It was focusing on having less stuff, focusing on consuming less, being more intentional and trying to find meaning and purpose outside of all of the things. And that was like, it was permission to stop trying to prove to everybody and also stop trying to prove to myself that I was successful. And if I was happy and if I was, you know, making work that I was proud of, if I was connecting with family and friends in a meaningful way, that was enough. And if I didn't achieve all the things, um, I had hoped to, then, then that was okay. So I, I didn't feel like I had to get the house, get the car, get all this stuff to prove myself to anyone.

• 8:46Speaker 01

  Because, because minimalism kind of taught you that those things, you don't need those things.

• 8:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, you don't, you don't need those things. It's, you know, I saw all these examples of people who were living a life of intention. And I was like, let me, let me try that. And so for me, it was like a one day process. I didn't have that much stuff, but it was like just loading everything up into bags, um, you know, donating what I had, throwing out the things that just, that weren't salvageable. And then, um, yeah, just committing to being a minimalist, which at the time was like this crazy idea. I remember feeling really embarrassed, like telling people, it was like telling people you were a vegan. Not that that's embarrassing.

• 9:23Speaker 01

  No, but there was a time where, where it was.

• 9:25Speaker 00

  Yeah. Whereas, yeah, it's like, kind of like showy, like, oh, cool. You're a minimalist. And people, yeah, I don't know if, um, anybody actually cared, but, uh, for me, it was, it was important to attach the label to myself because it made it real and it made me more intentional with every purchase and every decision I made from that moment on.

• 9:42Speaker 01

  I remember when the minimalism thing kind of exploded, um, in its own little way and I got really into it. I didn't really follow through with all the things, but I really loved the concept of minimalism. Cause I was like, you know, I forget what, what the actual numbers were, but it was something like, you should only have five tops, four bottoms, you know, you should have this like very minimal wardrobe. And, and I remember thinking, that's great. That's, yes, let's get rid of all the shit. I've got all this crap in my cupboard. And then I would think about it and then I would go to the cupboard and be like, yeah, but I can't get rid of that. But that's my, no.

• 10:19Speaker 03

  You know what? Let's do 25 t-shirts, 15 pants.

• 10:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:23Speaker 03

  And it's just very hard to actually do, to do it, even though I love the concept of it. Love the concept of it, but we're so conditioned to sort of want all this stuff and need all this stuff. It's very, it's a very hard thing to actually do it properly.

• 10:38Speaker 00

  Yeah. And unfortunately it feels like it's gotten a whole lot harder. Like it's so much easier to buy stuff now and we're also being sold in more ways than we've ever been sold to before. And we're comparing ourselves to people more than we ever have. I mean, if you think about it, like 50 years ago, how many, like our parents, like how many homes would they see the inside of? And now you're seeing like 10,000 every week. You're seeing minimalist home tours and you're seeing like different people like show off their homes and show off the things that they have. And actually I do think that that's kind of, I think the area that, the part that we missed with minimalism, I think initially, was that it was like the aesthetic was too perfect. It's like when you look at the minimalist aesthetic and it was about curating these perfect items.

• 11:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 11:19Speaker 00

  And I think that that actually did a little bit of a disservice.

• 11:22Speaker 03

  That's interesting. That's true.

• 11:23Speaker 00

  There was a little bit of a movement a couple of years ago. It wasn't huge, but it was called under consumption core. And it was more of like the Gen Z approach to minimalism. And like, I wish it got bigger than it did, but it was people showing off like their tattered, um, office chairs showing off like their kettle that was just like scratched up and ding, their water bottle that had like fallen off a cliff. And I think that, that to me is a more aspirational view of minimalism. We should be like using our things until they're unusable. Like that's a true sustainable practice rather than being like, I need this perfect kettle that matches my toaster and it matches my trash bin.

• 11:57Speaker 03

  That's true. When I think about minimalism in my mind, the videos I've seen, the people who I've seen like talking about minimalism, there it's like kind of perfect Scandinavian level.

• 12:08Speaker 02

  It's a beautiful aesthetic, isn't it?

• 12:10Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah. It's very calming and grays and blacks and whites and navies. And it's like, oh God, that kind of feels like severance or something. But like in a, in a kind of nice way, but yeah, maybe that's the problem is it sort of seemed too unattainable.

• 12:23Speaker 00

  Yeah. Too perfect. And then I think, cause I, I had this experience too, where I like, you know, early on into minimalism, I had this like stag kettle, which is like that, like beautiful black gooseneck kettle that you use for pour over coffee. But I got it like a scratch on it and then it revealed this like stainless steel. And then I'm like, it's like, it just felt like, I felt like I like lost something. And I'm like, actually being able to embrace the scratch and being able to embrace the imperfections of your things, I think is, um, a beautiful way to approach ownership of anything. And I think it helps us, yeah, be more sustainable.

• 12:57Speaker 03

  Hi, it's Ryan from The Imperfects and I'm reaching out to you now because we need your help. Gosh darn it.

• 13:03Speaker 01

  What, why do we need?

• 13:05Speaker 03

  Sorry. No, we're, I'm just making a plea to the listeners and viewers to ask them to subscribe to the show in whichever way they see fit. Because it really helps. The more subscribers, the better we can make this show, am I right?

• 13:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I don't think we need to, I think we could just ask them politely.

• 13:21Speaker 03

  Yeah. But if I use the emotional music.

• 13:23Speaker 01

  I think the music's a bit much.

• 13:24Speaker 03

  Is it?

• 13:25Speaker 02

  Who's playing that music?

• 13:26Speaker 03

  Doesn't matter who's playing the music. The important thing is we're pulling at the heartstrings and asking them to do us a solid.

• 13:32Speaker 01

  Could we not just ask, like just ask them straight? Like, oh, it'd really help us if you guys subscribed, because we would be able to make more of the show and make the show better.

• 13:40Speaker 03

  Oh, and not use emotional manipulation.

• 13:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I reckon.

• 13:44Speaker 03

  Well, you can give it a go, but I doubt it'll work. I really think the less consumption is like, for me, from the whole minimalist thing, the most, personally, the thing that I resonate with the most and think is the most important thing. I feel like I've had to come to terms with that by kind of just feeling a bit poor for the last few years with like how expensive everything's gotten. Having a mortgage, having two kids, I just haven't been able to buy things. And it's been a sort of painful journey to realize how much of a crutch purchasing things was. But I'm kind of happy with where I've gotten to with having a lot, buying a lot less sort of toys for myself is a really nice place to be. But on the, on the scratch, um, on the kettle, so we do, we have a cleaner that comes every couple of weeks.

• 14:29Speaker 03

  And that Monday is just, I love it because I come home and the house is like, it's like, we don't have kids for, for an hour or so, or an hour, and then they get home from.

• 14:39Speaker 01

  You really hate those kids, don't you?

• 14:42Speaker 03

  And the place is trashed, but recently, um, my wife was, went home to her family home in Bendigo for a couple of days. And it happened to be on a cleaner day and I got home and the house is perfect. And it was just so cold and empty and I found it really sad. And then I, then another day went by and I got home from work on the Tuesday and it was exactly the same. Nothing had changed. There was no mess and I, I found it really sad. And I had a sort of realization that I think the cost of entry for me to having a sort of fulfilling life at the moment is mess. And is chaos and is this kind of like.

• 15:19Speaker 01

  It's sort of like a representation of like, there's, there's life in the house.

• 15:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:24Speaker 01

  And without, without it, it's like we, yeah, I mean, I'm like my partner Jam, she went away last night. And so it's now just me in the house for, it'll be for ages. And yeah, I hate being home alone. Like sometimes I think, oh, that'll be so nice. Cause I can like, watch Terminator two.

• 15:43Speaker 00

  Finally.

• 15:45Speaker 01

  So, you know, I can, I can like do whatever I want. Um, but, but the reality is it's like, there's just no life in the house.

• 15:51Speaker 00

  No, I think that's, um, having kids definitely changed my perspective on minimalism. Cause it was like, it was a lot easier to keep the house like what tighter, but also to like, you know, not have like crayon all over your walls. And it's like, we like, there have been times spew all over you or all over your house. And it's like, um, I think even, we would even let like, so he, like our son wants like just, you know, colored crayons all over the wall. And like, we just left it there for like months. There was, I didn't care. I was like, and also like part of it is just because you're so busy. You're like, I'm gonna, like, I tried to clean it off. It didn't come off and I'm like, what do I have to paint it? Like, I don't know even how to get this off.

• 16:29Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 16:30Speaker 00

  And then I just didn't care. And then I'm like, all right. And like, you know, back in the day, it's like, our fridge was just completely like pure and clean. There was nothing on it. And now it's just filled up with his artwork and photos and family, uh, family photos. And to me that feels like a lot more whole. It feels a lot, yeah, it feels amazing. And it's like, I think we tried too much to, to kind of like curate and create a perfect home. But it feels a lot better when there's a mess. Yeah.

• 16:54Speaker 02

  We have to get into the cards. So the cards, um, you draw three cards from the deck and, um.

• 17:02Speaker 03

  What are you doing?

• 17:04Speaker 01

  This is hilarious because for whatever reason it's, I, I usually explain it.

• 17:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 17:08Speaker 01

  And I found she, she's doing it.

• 17:10Speaker 00

  That's my line.

• 17:11Speaker 01

  And I was, and I was like, well, this would be interesting.

• 17:14Speaker 03

  It is very interesting.

• 17:15Speaker 02

  As I was talking, I was thinking, I've never said this before. I don't know if I'm saying it right. Yeah. So we have our cards. If you would like to pick one.

• 17:25Speaker 03

  This one.

• 17:28Speaker 01

  I'll fill in the blanks for those who haven't heard before. So we have a, this deck of cards. It's a vulnerability house cards and there are 52 cards in the deck. And on each card, there's a question which will hopefully invoke some sort of vulnerable memory or something from your life, Matt. Uh, so we just, if you just pick the top three cards, read them out. And if one of those questions does resonate with you and it triggers some sort of story or trauma, um, please,

• 17:59Speaker 01

  please share it with us.

• 18:01Speaker 00

  I'll dig deep into the trauma for this one. Um, do you feel like you add value to the world? Why or why not?

• 18:08Speaker 01

  Well, that's gonna be a quick yes.

• 18:10Speaker 00

  Yeah. Nice question. Have you ever felt disconnected from yourself? What happened? What helped you find your way back?

• 18:19Speaker 00

  What do you spend too much time on trying to control?

• 18:24Speaker 00

  Which one should I pick?

• 18:25Speaker 01

  I feel like, I mean, speaking on your behalf, and I feel like you've done so much self-reflection. I imagine you'd have a quick, an answer for all of those, but is anyone jumping out?

• 18:34Speaker 00

  Yeah. I think this one here. Have you ever felt disconnected from yourself? What helped you find your way back? For me, I immediately think about becoming a parent and becoming a father.

• 18:47Speaker 00

  It was, it's like you have, you have to say the, the good parts first, right? Like you gotta be like, parenting's amazing. It's beautiful. It's like, it's life changing. It was like, it was also just that first year was just like the hardest year of my life and my wife Nat's life. We were just rocked, I think in ways that we never expected.

• 19:09Speaker 00

  We, from, from just the very, the very first day, um, our son was, just had such trouble sleeping. And it was initially, you're like, okay, is this, this is, this is just what happens. This is just what everybody goes through and then. As we went on, we just realized that his sleep challenges were a bit more than maybe average. And so it was, that was just like the beginning of this 10 month period where my wife and I just got no sleep day after day. We were split shifting every night. We were, there were nights, many, many nights where we had two hours of sleep and we just

• 19:51Speaker 00

  were broken. And I don't think in the moment, in that, throughout that, we just felt, oh, this is normal. Like, people go through this. But it like, it truly consumed us and I think broke us down in a way that we weren't, we weren't expecting.

• 20:06Speaker 01

  How, how were you guys together? Like, did it affect like, your relationship at all, or moods, or anything like that?

• 20:13Speaker 00

  Hundred percent. I mean, it's one of those things where then, that you start to realize how important sleep is. And when you're not getting consistent sleep, how much it impacts your ability to show up for your partner, also your ability to show up for your child. It's that you feel this like, deep sense of sadness that you, you just cannot be there emotionally. You just don't have the patience to be able to, I think, parent in a way that you would like. And then, for me, there was one moment in particular that stands out. I was, this was after like, 10 months of sleep deprivation after Frankie was born. I was working on a YouTube video. I'm trying to balance. I'm trying to like, keep my old life. I'm trying to make videos and I'm trying to go to the gym. I'm trying

• 20:55Speaker 00

  to do everything that I was doing before having kids. And I'm working on this video. And the video is called, this is really embarrassing, but it was, it was something like, Nine Ways I Found My Motivation Again. I think I was like, trying to convince myself that I had, like, I was back and like, I figured it out.

• 21:13Speaker 01

  Because were you still in the mindset at that stage of like, wanting, like, success being an important part of your, or did you already kind of shed that?

• 21:21Speaker 00

  No, no. I wanted to be, for me, it wasn't really about success and showing people that I was successful, or feeling successful. It was about feeling like myself, and feeling like I still had that part of me that was creative and energetic and was excited about showing up and making stuff. And I'm working on this video late at night. I'm 95% of the way through finishing this video. Like, the, the way that I usually make videos, at least certain kind of videos, is like, I'll put together the entire script and the entire video. And then, because I don't love being on camera, I kind of keep those parts for the very end. So like, all I had to do was just like, do my on-camera parts. Like, hey, everybody, this is how I got motivated. Like, you know, these are the nine ways I

• 22:04Speaker 00

  got motivated. And I was just looking at the timeline. And I was like, I can't do that. I can't do it. I, there's, I can't do, I cannot. I had 24 hours until this video was, had to be done by the deadline. And I was like, I can't do it. I'm done. So I like-

• 22:19Speaker 01

  You can't do it in the sense that you can't physically perform, or you don't want to?

• 22:23Speaker 00

  I couldn't force myself. I couldn't be on camera. I was like, I had no drive. I just did not care about this video. I felt fake and forced, being like, giving people advice on motivation, when I felt the least motivated I've ever felt in my life. And so, at that moment, I, I like, reached out to the, the brand who like, was tied to the video. There was a deadline for, and I just told them, I was like, I can't, I can't do this. I remember, like, immediately after that moment, I went to my wife and I was like, uh, like, I was, I was like, I'm just really struggling right now. And at the same, like, at the same exact time, we said something. She said something, I said something. It

• 23:04Speaker 00

  was different. She said, you need therapy. I said, I need medication. And I ended up getting both. But that was kind of the, the beginning for me of, kind of, me trying to find myself again, and feel connected to myself again, after 10 months of it just sneaking up on me and, and losing myself in the process of becoming a parent.

• 23:24Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, I imagine, and I only would assume this because of what we do and the podcast we do, but was there a part of you, when that happened, that thought, I should make a video out of this?

• 23:37Speaker 00

  It's, it's good. I mean, it's funny, because it is, there's a part of being a creator. And, and especially when you start to reveal and share parts of yourself, you're like, well, that's good content. That's interesting. That's something-

• 23:50Speaker 01

  It's real. Well, especially when it's real.

• 23:52Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. I, I have a hard time, and I've done that in the past. I've shared moments of vulnerability. I've shared, I had generalized anxiety when my channel first started to build momentum and I started to get like, millions of views on my videos. It just really put this immense amount of pressure on myself. I made a video about that. I always felt like making those videos, it just never felt natural and I never felt great about it. I loved hearing from people that, like, it was worth it for me to open up, because then I could hear from people who were impacted by it and who, who had helped. But I just always feel, I think, I felt uncomfortable opening up and sharing that. When, when I was going through this phase, it was like, there wasn't a part of

• 24:35Speaker 00

  me that wanted to share that with anybody, because I just had no drive to turn on a camera, no drive. I just didn't want anything to do with it. I was like, I thought, at that point, I thought I was gonna quit YouTube and I might never go back. And I did end up taking an eight-month break from creating any videos. And that was the longest break I'd taken since, since I started in 2017.

• 24:56Speaker 01

  When you, you said before that you didn't know, really, I think, paraphrasing, you didn't really know who you were at this point. Then going and not making content, which was such a big part of you, did you feel more lost in that initially of like, who, who am I? Like, what, what have I become?

• 25:12Speaker 00

  I think so, in the beginning. And I didn't know where, I didn't know where to start. Like, I think, for me, it was like, I think, obviously because the, the sleep deprivation had just like, broken me down. But I also just genuinely had less time to invest in myself and my habits and, and healthy eating and going to the gym. And so I was in a fortunate position that I could take a break, that I could stop working. Like, I couldn't imagine if I had to keep pushing through and keep working through that.

• 25:41Speaker 01

  Which a lot of people have to do.

• 25:43Speaker 00

  So many people do. I, I have so much empathy for people who, who are in that position. And they're like, I have to, like, I have to pay the bills. I can't take a break. And I think that's what having a village and a support system, that's why it's so important to be able to have people that you can lean on. But I, I was fortunate to be able to kind of take a step away. And I just, I didn't feel like myself for the longest time. It was like, months of just trying to figure out, how do I, like, how do I find it again? Part of it was like, finding my healthy habits. The other part was finding that creative spark. For me, it started with, I told you, like, I did a little bit of medication. I only did that for about a week. And then I didn't like how I felt. So then I stopped. Therapy was, was really great. That was so helpful.

• 26:24Speaker 01

  What'd you learn in therapy?

• 26:25Speaker 00

  It just gave me, I think, like, at the time, I was relying too much on my wife, Nat, to be my therapist. And we were both struggling. Like, we both needed therapy. We both needed mental health support. Like, we, we were, I was diagnosed with depression at that time. My wife was diagnosed with PTSD. When you think about the realities of what those wake-ups were like, it was, we would, you know, it progressively got worse and worse, as our son got more associated with us, attending to him for every wake. And so it went from him waking up five times a night to him waking up 15, 20 times a night, which is basically every 30 minutes. You're, you're just in there in the room with him. You're holding him mostly through the night. You're holding him for sometimes four hours.

• 27:09Speaker 00

  You're, you're wide awake. You can't sleep.

• 27:11Speaker 01

  It's the loneliest feeling in the world.

• 27:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, it is. And I, I sometimes, this is like, I think this is a side, like, I'm a bit of a perfectionist. And I think when I'm faced with these kind of challenges, I go to anger, which is something that I was quite ashamed of in, in those moments. Just being so angry to be put in that position, to feel like it was so unfair, that, that, that we were being put through this. It was very, very quick to spiral in the middle of the night. And yeah, to your point, it's just incredibly lonely. I, we, we got to the point where it was like, these 20, 20 wake-ups a night. And we just felt, I don't

• 27:55Speaker 00

  know, it's just, in that process, you certainly kind of lose yourself. I think, for me, coming out of it was, the therapy helped me to like, reflect on a lot of those feelings. The feelings of anger, why I jumped to that, what I can do when I feel anger. Also, just being, accepting the anger and not trying to hide from it. I think it's very easy to try to like, bury these feelings down and actually shame yourself for feeling this sense of anger. And just being like, this is okay. This is like, it's natural. It's, it's okay to feel this way. Like, your, your body and your mind are just being pushed to the absolute limit.

• 28:36Speaker 01

  Do you, do you remember, or if you, if you mind sharing, why you resorted to the anger?

• 28:44Speaker 00

  I don't know if I ever got to the bottom of like, why the anger comes up. I think to me, I feel like, I mean, I know the anger came up because of the feelings of it. It felt feeling unfair, feeling like it was just robbing me of everything, of all the joy of my life. And like, again, I'd like, you have to say the, the good parts too. Like it was, it was also a magical time, like being able, looking back at photos of, of my son Frankie. And, and, and there was it like, I burst into tears the moment that I saw my son. It was just like, for me, I know not everybody has like that instant connection, um, especially fathers. But I, I was fortunate that like, I just had that instant connection with my son and I just balled, I just balled.

• 29:28Speaker 00

  And then I think it, it just cracked me open and I was so much more emotionally open during that time. But with all these extra emotions, anger was a part of it as well.

• 29:39Speaker 01

  I mean, I, I don't know, like, I really, I really resonate, like, I don't have kids, but I, I, I, I would worry that if I did, I would have the exact same reaction to what you did. I don't, you know, to what, to what degree, who knows, but I, I, I get really overwhelmed when things are, when things go wrong. And I, from what I can tell and from all the therapy that I've done, it's because I'm, growing up, I didn't have much go wrong. So like my discomfort, um, my ability to kind of weather the discomfort or weather a storm is I've got a pretty low tolerance level because I didn't, because I wasn't hit with many big storms as a kid.

• 30:21Speaker 01

  And so since then have been able luckily to be able to control most of the things that I do in my life and been able to kind of like have a pretty good handle on everything. So if I was dealt something like that, which was completely out of my control, I can see myself really struggling.

• 30:36Speaker 00

  Mm hmm. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, is it just like a rite of passage? It's just like, as a, as a parent, you just like, it's gonna be a struggle. Or are there people out there like, cause sometimes you see people online and you're like, I don't think they're struggling. I think they're actually.

• 30:48Speaker 02

  So our former nanny has just had a baby over the last year and she's not struggling. She's fine. Baby sleeps nonstop.

• 30:55Speaker 03

  I think some people just get babies who sleep.

• 30:57Speaker 02

  We dropped our baby last night. Babe didn't even cry. So they came over last night and one of our kids dropped the baby and the baby was totally fine. She's like, that's fine. Don't worry about it. Like what, our child would have cried for four days. So yeah, I, I one hundred, so we've got three kids, nine, six and four. And for whatever reason, all three, all three of our kids were exactly the same as yours. Um, in fact, my wife and I noted only in June of this year, so nine and a half years in, have we started getting proper sleep?

• 31:24Speaker 00

  Are you serious?

• 31:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, um, so I know exactly how you feel. And it's, it's, it has changed me so much that I like, I'm still not nowhere near the person I used to be, as in not a negative, I'm just totally different. I, I, I know I've said this analogy before on the podcast, but it, I always feel like, um, the scene from Gladiator where Russell Crowe is about to go out and fight. Um, and the final scene, they're about to have the.

• 31:53Speaker 03

  Against the Emperor.

• 31:54Speaker 02

  Yeah. And the Emperor, um, before he hugs him underneath, no one sees it. He hugs him underneath and he stabs him with a knife into the back and puts it deep into his back and then wraps him up with bandage. So no one can see he's been stabbed in the back and he has to go and fight with one arm and he's been stabbed. And he's just, no one knows what he's dealing with. No one knows why he's losing. No one knows why he can't be himself. That's what I, every day I go into the world feeling like, no one knows, no one knows how depleted I am, how much I'm struggling. And I can't, you can't just, it, it's, and I, so, uh, two weeks ago I did it. Um, my, my job used to be I'd do so many talks all around the country and I haven't done it for a long time. Mainly because it was, I couldn't do it when I had no sleep. And I did one the other day. And this is after a couple of months of good sleep again.

• 32:39Speaker 02

  And I, I, the crowd were, they were fine, but they wasn't the warmest, most engaged crowd. And I was up there going, I used to, I would have been able to win them over so quickly and turn this into a really incredible energy. And I was like, I can't do it anymore. I can't do this. I'm too, I'm still too tired. I don't, I'm not myself. I'm not as confident as I used to be. I'm just, and I noticed, I just, I was on stage going, gosh, I am not who I used to be. This, uh, I'm, I'm a totally different person now and it's because of that sleep deprivation. That's what it is.

• 33:07Speaker 00

  Did you find that you, you were like desperate for people to understand? How hard it was like that for the longest time, it was like, that's all we talked about. And, and we talked, we, we, in every detail, we shared with family and friends how hard it was and what we were going through. And they were all amazing and very like supportive and compassionate, but like, um, until you talk to somebody who's actually been through it and been in the trenches, it's like, you feel like you're not being heard.

• 33:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:33Speaker 00

  And I, I just felt this desperate need for, we both, Matt and I both did this desperate need for people to be like, to really, like, almost to like feel it and to really understand the depths of how low you can get when you don't have sleep.

• 33:44Speaker 01

  It's really, I mean, it's impossible for me to properly know what it's like, obviously. It's a real, so like, when, cause when parents tell me kids aren't sleeping, I haven't slept in days. I'm like, oh no.

• 33:59Speaker 01

  But I don't really know what that means. Like I can't possibly understand.

• 34:04Speaker 00

  It's, it's, it's kind of bizarre though too, cause you like, it, what's crazy to me is that like, if I had one of these nights before kids, like you just rewind five years ago, if I had one night like this, I would take a week off.

• 34:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. And you tell everyone about it.

• 34:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, we tell everybody about it. But like now it's just regular, like, like I, the other night I had just a random two hour night where I only got two hours of sleep. And I was like, this is, I guess that's what happened. You, you gotta get up, you gotta get the kids ready. You gotta go to work and you gotta continue on with life. And, um, resilient, I think you build a little bit of resilience, but also I think it's just like your, your body is just like, just.

• 34:40Speaker 01

  Dying.

• 34:41Speaker 00

  Gets, it's dying inside, but you just are somehow moving and you're somehow, you know, showing up.

• 34:46Speaker 02

  Particular, two, two thousand and twenty-three, this particular night where the next day I was, I had a very important, um, speaking, I was, I was launching the Queensland State of Origin preseason camp. I was like, the opening address. I never met the players before. And it meant a lot to me and I knew it was a really big deal. And I had prepared the talk and everything and I had to fly up the morning. So my flight was six AM flying to Brisbane, going straight to the hotel, they're staying up to do the talk. And I, for, we just had a really bad night and I was, I remember being with my son from about, um, I was just falling asleep at about, my alarm was going to go at four o'clock. I was falling asleep at nine thirty and my son woke up and he had a, it was having a, it was a lot going on.

• 35:30Speaker 02

  And I remember lying in bed with him until he didn't go back to sleep till four. And I was lying there with him and I was in tears. The clock got to four o'clock the morning, I just started crying because I was like, this is, this is fucked. This is, I'm, I may not sleep here. And then sure enough, he finally fell asleep. And I remember 10 minutes after he fell asleep, my alarm went off and I hadn't, and I hadn't slept. And I was going to the airport and I, I hadn't, I was, I literally hadn't slept. My hands were shaking. And I remember I wanted, I was gonna call Josh. I was like, I need to tell my brother what's happened. I need to talk about this. Cause this is, I thought I can't call him. It's four in the morning. So I was meant to send you, I don't even remember this, I was meant to send you a voice note.

• 36:05Speaker 03

  This is ringing down.

• 36:06Speaker 02

  And I, I pressed the button to send the voice out and I tried to say it and I started crying and I'd try, I just cried for like a minute. And then I was like, I can't send him this. And I just like took my thumb off and it sent it to him. And I was, and I was in such a rush to get the plane in, I just, I didn't have time to like follow up and say, hey, just say no, like I'm not dying or anything. I'm just like, but, and then I go on the plane and then there was no wifi. And I went, oh, I can't tell him. So I arrived in Brisbane at nine o'clock in the morning. Josh just got this voice out four o'clock in the morning, me crying for a minute at all. No words, just me crying.

• 36:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then I remember.

• 36:41Speaker 03

  All Josh asked was how's the resilience project going?

• 36:46Speaker 02

  And I had to go and stand in front of those people. And it's such an important thing. It was like, I'm at, I'm at about one percent of my.

• 36:52Speaker 03

  You told them? No, you.

• 36:53Speaker 02

  Uh, halfway through because I just, I was trying to push through and then I was like, I can't. So I just told them what happened and I think I was quite teary because I was quite worried about my son as well. And I just, yeah. And it was, the only thing that saddened me was telling, sharing what I was going through, like you said before. But it was just, it was just a thing of like, this is not fair. This is so unfair.

• 37:11Speaker 00

  I think though, like some things just suck in life, like there's sometimes there's no silver lining. I think when I look back at it, like just hearing you, you share that I got quite emotional just about how hard it was for you. It brings me back to where I was, but it also like, I just, I understand how hard it is. And like, I don't want anybody to feel that way. And I just think that maybe before having kids and before having this experience, I didn't have that level of empathy where I was, I really, I mean, I think that's just one of the things that, that helped me, I think be a, maybe a better person is just being able to better understand, empathize with people who go through struggles, whether it's like challenges with

• 37:52Speaker 00

  pregnancy, or it's, um, yeah, sleep, or there's just so many other challenges as well that people go through with parenting that we've never experienced, whether it's like, um, you know, for women, whether it's breastfeeding challenges, or it's reflux, there's just, you hear from so many people who have had so many different challenges than, than you've had, and you don't realize all the things that you can be grateful for.

• 38:15Speaker 01

  I guess that's why parents like often are attracted to each other in terms of hanging out together because you want to like, share your thing.

• 38:21Speaker 00

  The war stories.

• 38:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, the war stories. Because like, as an, as a non-parent, even though there's no, it's not like I don't believe parents either way, but like, it's a really hard thing to get your head around, which is like, this is, I'm really, really struggling, but it's also the most amazing thing ever.

• 38:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:37Speaker 01

  So it's like, which one, what do you mean? How is it possible to be both?

• 38:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:43Speaker 01

  It's really, I guess, impossible to understand until you're in it.

• 38:46Speaker 00

  Yeah. I, I want to say one thing that I think is important, because you know, when you talk about building a village, I think these days, you kind of have to pay for it. Um, if you can, like if you, if you don't have the people around you. And so, uh, sometimes you do have to like, pay for it, whether it's daycare, or it's a nanny support. For us going into having our second kid, we decided to get a night nanny. Um, and that was just like a game changer. Like I, I look back and I'm like, I wish we did that with our first. Because like even one night, what, out of that 10 month period, if we had one night of full sleep, it would have changed my life. And I'm like, I think that, so if, if, for whatever reason though, we just felt like we had to do it ourselves and do it alone.

• 39:31Speaker 01

  Were you feeling like a failure with your first child during that?

• 39:35Speaker 00

  I would say, did we feel like a failure? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like the whole time you're like, I'm obviously doing something wrong. There's something that, that we're getting, like you're just compulsively tracking their sleep and figuring like their nap schedule, like this must be something that I'm doing.

• 39:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:49Speaker 00

  Because everybody else seems to be having like babies that sleep through the night, or at least sleep in two hour trunks.

• 39:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:55Speaker 00

  But that, yeah, that, that feeling of putting your baby to sleep, it's like they're like sleeping in your arms, and then you slowly lower them down, you put them in the bed, you, you're just quietly pulling your hands away, you're creeping out. But then like you, because you've done this so many times, you know, that it's not gonna, it's gonna be 15 minutes or 20 minutes. It's just like you, you lie down and like, you're just about to fall asleep, and then they start crying. And you're like, okay, here we go. And like, I think that, that feeling to me is like, one of the hardest things when you're like, so deprived of sleep, and you're just about to fall asleep, and then you're just thrown back into it.

• 40:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:27Speaker 00

  But, um.

• 40:28Speaker 01

  And it's almost like the definition of anxiety of this, like anticipating what's going to come all the time. Anticipating how it's going to go wrong at every.

• 40:36Speaker 00

  That's it.

• 40:37Speaker 01

  At every step.

• 40:39Speaker 01

  Is there, was there an element for you, Matt, where the, and I don't know if you, like as a performer and as a creator and someone who's just making stuff, and particularly online, you're getting feedback, you're getting often, you know, really positive feedback, and you sort of measure the success of video, maybe based on how many views it got, or how many comments or likes, whatever. Was it at all hard, and maybe I'm just projecting a future me potentially, was it at all hard to not be getting constant praise for parenting?

• 41:09Speaker 00

  Um, you mean online?

• 41:11Speaker 01

  No, just, just in general.

• 41:13Speaker 00

  From your child?

• 41:13Speaker 01

  Because like I, like I often wish I got a bit more praise from my baby.

• 41:18Speaker 00

  Pat on the back.

• 41:18Speaker 01

  Well, because like the other day, I was like, my friends of ours just had a baby, and she's three weeks old. And I, and I, and so she could go and, you know, have time for herself. I was holding the baby, and I held the baby for like 40 minutes. And.

• 41:33Speaker 00

  Hero.

• 41:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, well done, man. But genuinely.

• 41:37Speaker 00

  Stop the episode, that's it.

• 41:39Speaker 01

  So I get it.

• 41:42Speaker 01

  But at the end of, you know, when I had to hand it back to, um, the mom, I, I realized that I'd been like flexing, unintentionally flexing my arm, and I was so, my arm was so sore.

• 41:56Speaker 01

  And I said, and I said, oh geez, like my arm was so sore, and no one gave a shit.

• 42:02Speaker 01

  But my arm is so sore. And there was, there was no like, thank you so much for holding the baby while I was able to, not that I expected it, but it was just like, it's just a weird experience.

• 42:17Speaker 01

  So I just wonder, considering like, I don't know if we're similar at all at that, but did you, did you, going through this really hard thing, was it weird to, no, no one's going, hey, Matt, you are killing it right now?

• 42:30Speaker 00

  You know what's, it's funny is that, um, just recently, what's, what's amazing about technology now is that you can kind of go back and look at a snapshot of who you were and what was happening through text messages and emails and, and photos. And recently, my wife went back and she's like, I just want to like, look at a snapshot of our text messages and conversation of like, what were we saying? And how were we communicating with each other back then? And it brought me to tears. It was amazing. Like seeing the level of love and compassion that we, that we gave towards each other was, um, it was, it was like I,

• 43:10Speaker 00

  it made me realize that like, we weren't alone, you know, during that, that period, that we had each other. And, um, it was still really hard, but it was just like, we do these like handoff notes in the middle of the night when our shift was over. And it was just like, we were shift workers passing in the middle of the night. But then we would be like, yeah, nappy change at this time, you know, vomit on me, like a little bit of reflux. Um, you know, I love you so much. Thank you so much for everything. Love, heart. And it was just seeing us give each other so much grace and compassion during like the hardest point of our life.

• 43:44Speaker 01

  That is awesome.

• 43:45Speaker 00

  Was amazing. Yeah. And it was just like, I think, when you're in the trenches, you, you, you have, like having somebody there, not having to do it alone, I think, um, changed us. Like, and, and also now looking back, we both have been through that experience together. We're both, like, nobody knows what we've gone through but each other. And I think while having a relationship with kids is much more challenging, you don't have as much time, um, I think it made our relationship so much stronger.

• 44:14Speaker 01

  That's so good. That's incredible. I mean, it just, can you imagine doing that as a single parent? Can you imagine not having the person?

• 44:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:25Speaker 01

  That to do, like, I just can't, I mean, I've never done it, and I can't imagine.

• 44:29Speaker 00

  You've got a sore arm.

• 44:30Speaker 01

  That's true. That's true. I did single parent for 40 minutes.

• 44:33Speaker 00

  Your arm okay now?

• 44:34Speaker 01

  It's just healing. Thank you, Josh. Yeah. No, that's really kind of you to ask. Um, yeah. But, but seriously, like, that is really wild that like, people are doing that on their own.

• 44:42Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 44:43Speaker 01

  I've often thought that, um, the, the hard stuff as a parent would be really hard on your own. But I think what would be harder is not being able to share the good stuff, like have no one else that understands what they just did. Like if it's, if it's sleeping through for an hour, like to have no one with you to be like, this is the best moment of a year.

• 45:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:04Speaker 01

  Well, I think that would be the hardest part, to not share the good stuff.

• 45:08Speaker 00

  Yeah. It's like, it feels like your heart's going to explode sometimes, just because like the amount of love. And like, it's just as, as I've seen, um, you know, our two sons get older and develop and like, you know, our, our oldest is now three years old. It's just like that level of connection and playfulness and silliness. And it's just like, we have like, such amazing moments together. And being able to share that as a family and see like our family dynamics start to be formed as these kids get older, has just been, that's been the best part. And now we can enjoy it because now, now we're sleeping. Like our second actually sleeps, like, knock on wood. I mean, he still has like these days where he wakes up at like 4:00 AM, but he'll sleep for like eight hour chunks, easy.

• 45:46Speaker 01

  You've done, you've done your hard yards. You deserve it.

• 45:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:50Speaker 01

  You mentioned earlier that you were diagnosed with depression. I, um, about a year and a, I think it was a year and a half ago, I started seeing a psychologist, and she told me that, yeah, I think you have depression. And it was the first, I've been in some dark places in my life, and that's the first time anyone had ever said that to me. And I, I got really scared and terrified. Um, and it was a really.

• 46:17Speaker 03

  I would have thought it would have been a relief, but I was terrified when it happened. And it took me quite a while to come to terms with that. I wanted to know what it felt like for you when you were told, when you heard the words and when you actually diagnosed with this is what you've got. This is where you are.

• 46:32Speaker 00

  I don't think I was surprised. It was a label that I was really, I didn't wanna attach to myself. I remember, you know, they have these like quizzes online, these like little questionnaires. Are you depressed? Do you have ADHD? And I, I filled out one of those depression quizzes. It was like 20 questions and it was, it was really bad. It was, it was, and like while it probably, maybe it wasn't scientific or it was, everything was, it was like, have you had any joyful moments in the past week? No, you know, have you, do you often have feelings of anger or resentment during that? Yes, it was like every single one, it was clear that I was going through something serious.

• 47:16Speaker 00

  And, and it was, I had gone to the doctor because I wanted to get medicated. Cause I felt, cause at the time I felt like the only way I'm going to be able to show up and continue to work is if I medicate. And that was my first, like, that was my first thing was I gotta push through this. I gotta keep working on medicate so I don't have to change my life and I don't have to like do the real work.

• 47:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's like, it's like strap up my legs so I can keep playing the game.

• 47:41Speaker 00

  That's right. Yeah, just keep going.

• 47:42Speaker 03

  And also I can't change my life. Yeah, like the thing that's causing this is

• 47:47Speaker 00

  Always gonna be there.

• 47:47Speaker 03

  Always gonna be there.

• 47:48Speaker 00

  And I think obviously like medication helps a lot of people. I think for me, what needed to change was just everything else in my life. And then figuring out how to build a life that was, was compatible with having children. But going to the doctors, getting that diagnosis, I think helped me just accept that, that this, this is, this is what I'm going through. Like this is, this is pretty heavy.

• 48:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 48:15Speaker 00

  And I do need help and I need support and I need therapy and I need, you know, some, some space to be able to feel, to feel this and move through it. And fortunately for me, the depression was linked to the circumstances and what I was going through. And it was around that time that our son started sleeping again. We, you know, we tried every sleep thing, every sleep training we did. We initially did the, the cry it out, and then that didn't quite work and it was really hard. And then we did the gentle sleep and that's when things got progressively worse. And then we tried Ferber again, just cause we were like, maybe he's ready for it now. For, sorry, Ferber, Ferber method, have you heard of it?

• 48:56Speaker 03

  Probably.

• 48:57Speaker 00

  Yeah. Ferber is, um, his book is something like solve your child's sleep.

• 49:03Speaker 03

  I've never heard of it.

• 49:04Speaker 00

  Oh, you haven't? Okay. So it's, it's like, it's quite a popular method of, of sleep training of essentially progressive waiting. So, you know, the first night you might check on them every two, three, five minutes. The next night you do three, five, seven. And then each night you progressively go up until you're, have 20 minutes in between each wake. And so the, um, and, and these days it's, it's like a little bit controversial, even at Tracilian, which is an amazing, amazing organization in Australia, where you can like bring your baby and they, they help you work through sleep challenges. Because it's controversial, because there's an element of crying, they don't recommend it in the Tracilian system. But there's a lot of science to back that it doesn't do any harm to your child and, and, and can, can work.

• 49:50Speaker 00

  And for us, we, we did the, the first night, a lot of crying. Also, there was a lot of crying before, like me and the kids. It was like all of us were crying through the night.

• 50:00Speaker 03

  So it's a Tracilian thing, you bring your child in and they kind of have a look under the hood.

• 50:06Speaker 03

  It's just making this weird noise.

• 50:09Speaker 00

  It's actually, yeah, Tracilian is, is an amazing organization that is, they don't have anything like it as far as I know in America. But if you're having feeding issues with your child, or if you're having sleep issues, you can bring them there. They've got a little buzzer, kind of like in a hospital where you can buzz it. And then somebody will come in, like a midwife or whoever will come in to, to help you and to give you advice on how to get your child to sleep. So we actually did that. That was our breaking point, to be fair, because we had gone through this whole thing. And they, like the advice they were giving us was everything that we were already doing. And so we're like, yeah, we're like, we're, we're, we're doing this kind of gentle approach when they're crying, we're going to them immediately, going to Frankie. And then we were like, the, the only way we're gonna get through this, I think, is if we try some form of sleep training.

• 50:54Speaker 00

  So we did Ferber and it was two nights. It was the first night, he cried for like, I think an hour. And it was like, it was, it was quite sad, like he, he fell asleep standing up, which was like really quite hard to see as a parent. And then I walked in and I like light him down and he slept through the entire night. That was the first time he ever slept through the entire night. It was just like, we were holy, it was like that one hour of crying was so hard as a parent. I remember just put it pulling my shirt over my head and just like, and like I, I didn't wanna put earphones in or plugs in. I wanted to hear it all, like I wanted to be there for him if he's going through it. I felt like I needed to be, go through it with him. And so that was night one.

• 51:36Speaker 00

  Night two, I lowered the bed and he fell asleep sitting up and I lied him back down and then that was it. And then from that moment on, he slept through the night. He was asleep 12 hours straight. It, it like, I, like I was, I was thinking about naming our, our second kid Ferber. Not very Italian, but, but, um, it like, I understand that people like, don't want to sleep train their children or, or, or follow this method. But for us, and it didn't work the first time we tried it, it completely changed our life. We, we, we were able to start sleeping again. We were able to show up and be more compassionate and have more energy. He started sleeping better.

• 52:15Speaker 00

  He wasn't waking up every hour, like he, he is mood and energy change, like the bags under his eyes, like, like a, like a one year old had bags under his eyes. Like they went away. And so, um, it, that was, that was completely life-changing for us. And so, um, yeah, again, I know like you go on Instagram and, and people think it's like the worst thing in the world, but it worked for us.

• 52:37Speaker 03

  We, um, yeah, we, we ended up at sleep school with our first. He just wasn't sleeping.

• 52:42Speaker 02

  With us, same time.

• 52:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah, and we end up at this place.

• 52:48Speaker 02

  Masada?

• 52:49Speaker 03

  Masada? Yeah, Masada. And I found, I, I think it speaks to how important it was for us, but like leading up to that moment where things were really bad and he was kind of waking up. It was weeks and weeks and weeks of him waking up sort of 10 times a night. And just like exactly what you've been talking about, like just basically not, both of us not sleeping. And we got to a point where we were both so low. And I remember this moment in the middle of the night where I was trying to comfort him. And I was holding him and my wife was there too. And I, I think similar to you, I anger, I'm very ashamed to admit it, but anger comes to me when I'm, when things aren't working. And I, I just couldn't handle it anymore.

• 53:34Speaker 03

  And I just left him on the bed and stormed out in anger, leaving my wife alone. Almost blaming him for everything, like this, the anger that was inside me, I was so ashamed of. I couldn't believe I was taking the anger out on a three months old baby who is just like the most important thing at that point in my life. Now I have two child, but at that point in my life, I only had him and he was the most important thing in my world and the most precious thing. I had the same experience of you and that I was lucky enough as a dad that the moment I saw him, I was just like, everything changed. I just had this connection from day dot, yet I was taking it out on the most beautiful thing in the world.

• 54:15Speaker 03

  I guess I just bring this up to say that this is what sleep deprivation does to you. It turns you into a person that you're not, I think, or for me anyway. It turned me into, and so we were desperate and we went to sleep school and it changed everything. And it was so hard, so much harder for my wife, cause she was the one in there at this place. Your, the mom stays with the baby. There's no space for the father to stay there. So I left and went home and got sleep. But it allowed us to become the compassionate, caring, loving parents that he deserved, rather than this person that I was turning into.

• 54:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't know if people realize that, like just how much the sleep deprivation would change you. And it's like easy to say, like, oh, I would never do that in that situation.

• 55:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 55:03Speaker 00

  But it's like, until you've actually been through it and you've been there, would you realize that you actually, you can, if you, if you've been broken down enough?

• 55:11Speaker 03

  But it also made me, I actually wonder if, if you could speak to this, because I, my wife reacted so much better to so many things than I did during that time. The challenges and the stress. And I wondered if,

• 55:29Speaker 03

  if you have, if you learnt anything from Nat during that time? And what you think about when you think about her and her ability to go through this?

• 55:37Speaker 02

  Nah.

• 55:39Speaker 00

  She was all right. She was all right. It is amazing. I mean, as hard as it was for me, it's like, when I look at my wife and the extra burden that she had to carry as well. And the challenges of breastfeeding, we were doing triple feeding. I don't know if you've ever heard of triple feeding?

• 55:58Speaker 03

  What? I only thought there were two breasts.

• 56:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:04Speaker 03

  Cause everyone's different.

• 56:04Speaker 00

  I don't know if you watch Ali Abdaal, it's a productivity hack.

• 56:09Speaker 03

  We're a real deep cut to YouTube.

• 56:12Speaker 00

  Love you, Ollie. But yeah, no, essentially, our baby Frankie, early on, was losing a whole lot of weight. And so, over the course of the, they actually kept us in the hospital for a week because he was losing weight every day. And they, he had to get up to a certain point before they would feel comfortable letting us go. And it was because the breastfeeding was such an uphill battle. And it was, it was just, there wasn't enough supply coming in. And so then, what they had us do was, for every feed, we would start with the breast. Then we would do express bottle, which is like, you know, pumped bottle milk. So that's trying to feed them through the bottle, if they can't take it through the breast. And then it was giving them formula on top of that. And so then it was like, these three forms of feeding. And by the time you get through all this and clean the bottles and

• 56:56Speaker 00

  sterilize and do everything, you have a 45 minute break in between like, each, each feeding session.

• 57:02Speaker 03

  We've got to do it again.

• 57:03Speaker 00

  Before we do it again, 24/7. This is all day. Like, this is like, and this is like, this is our entry into parenting, is that for the first couple of months, it was like, we were doing double and triple feeding. Eventually, we were able to cut out the formula, but you were still doing the express breast milk. And it was just like this relentless nonstop. And like, we were both there for it. But obviously, with Nat, it was like, she would, for her, it was like physically draining on her body. She had a C-section as well. It's like, she was physically recovering from this.

• 57:27Speaker 03

  Not to mention the kind of societal pressure that like, that the things of like, oh, you should be breastfeeding, or like, this, this pressure, I think that, I don't think I'll ever understand the, the expectation pressure on mums, as opposed to dads. There's certainly a level of pressure on dads, too. But it's a different level.

• 57:43Speaker 00

  Sometimes they say it's like, the, the, oh, women's hormones, they, they deal with the sleep deprivation a little bit better, I've heard. I don't think that's true. I think it's, it's brutal on, on everybody. And I learned a lot from, from Nat in that, that period. And I think it was, yeah, it was, it was, I think, more about trying to like, make her proud, and trying to, trying to help her in the ways that I could, and seeing that she was struggling. And I think that's what we both tried to do at times, which was like, sacrifice ourselves. And at times, I think we would rush in to try to help each other too, too soon, where we were just like, so desperate to try to help each other, to try to like, see each other again, that it was like, we were, we

• 58:25Speaker 00

  were just burning ourself to the ground. But yeah, it was, it's fun times.

• 58:32Speaker 03

  In, when you're in the, and this is maybe a bit of a, an ignorant, well, probably is a really ignorant question from a person who's never had a kid. But, just like, you guys talking about how it's so dark, and you become this different person, and you kind of, whether it's anger or whatever, and you kind of behave in a way that is just like, not you, because you're so broken. I guess what I'm trying to ask, is there ever any moments of regret, like wanting your old life back?

• 59:01Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, all the time. The whole time. No, it's like, there is, there's, yeah, there's like, a lot of regret. I think, there's actually a whole subreddit dedicated to regretful parents. I don't know if you've heard about it.

• 59:14Speaker 03

  Oh, I've read it.

• 59:15Speaker 00

  Yeah. It's quite, it's quite sad. I read it when I was like, going through this, because I like, wanted to hear from other people, like, and it's, it feels actually like a different life, because I don't regret being a parent now. It's like, the best thing ever. And it just, it's this, like, my life used to revolve around my work, and now my life revolves around family, and I, and I wouldn't want to have it any other way. Like, I just, I, family comes first, I fit them in. And then, it's like, okay, if I have five hours to work today, okay, I got five hours. If the kids are sick, work goes out the window, and I'm, I'm help, I'm there home with the kids. But there, there was this, there's a subreddit, like, I think it's called regretful parents, and just reading through it, and just feeling heard and seen. And it's, it's saying the things that you could probably never say to your family or friends, that you regret being a parent,

• 1:00:00Speaker 00

  that you regret making this decision, that you want your old life back. And fortunately for me, that was just like, that was just a period of time. I could definitely see there's, there's people that actually, they hold on to their regret their whole life, maybe if they're not able to get the help. Or like, sometimes people rush into having kids, and they're maybe not ready for it at that stage of their life. But.

• 1:00:24Speaker 03

  Or it happens with the wrong partner, like you've described. I feel, so, I feel like, it needs to be mentioned of like, how special your connection with your wife is. And I think you and I are both lucky as well. But that some people out there, they don't have a partner that's supportive or looking out for them. They're looking for the out. And like, I just wanted to acknowledge those people, that it must be so hard for you right now, if you're in that position, and you're dealing with sleep deprivation. And either you're doing it alone, as mentioned earlier, or you're dealing, doing it with someone that is not with you, and you're not a team. It must be so hard. Yeah.

• 1:00:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:00Speaker 03

  We, we had an incredible psychiatrist on called Edna Lekgabe. And she talked about, her episode was about matressence, which is this concept of how the brain changes for a mother when they have a child. And that you can actually track the physiological changes, and you literally become a new person. And there is a version of that pertressence for men, which I've certainly, I've experienced. And I have found it, and I, I think, it's a real, I found it a really challenging thing. And I don't think I've really spoken about this before, but, because it's still formulating in my mind. But I found it to,

• 1:01:40Speaker 03

  I'm loving the person I've turned into, this new version of myself. But I also think I'm really lonely. And I think I'm really lonely, because I don't, because I have all these connections and people who know me as the person before, when I was a dad. And I don't know how to show up now as this new version of myself, to everyone. And I'm wondering if you've found the change of being, becoming the new you at all lonely?

• 1:02:08Speaker 00

  I don't know if I've felt the loneliness. I, the one thing that I have felt, is this like, desperate need to hold on to my identity, and to hold on to the person that I was before. Like, I did not want to change. And I think, because I think, before you have kids, it's like, going into it, it's a little bit of rose colored glasses. You're like, I'm not going to give up, you know, XYZ. It's like, and you would say certain things, like, you just gotta go out at night. You just gotta go on holiday with the kids. Like, you need to do these things. You gotta live your life. You can't sacrifice it. And then, you realize that, like, oh, if we go out with the kids, and we screw up their sleep schedule, that's the next week that we don't get to sleep.

• 1:02:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:02:48Speaker 00

  And so, it was a huge adjustment, just trying to like, you know, making these sacrifices. The one thing that I did during this time, which I would not recommend, is I trained to become a powerlifter for 100 days. And I, this was like, a video that I was making, and I hired Sebastian Orb, who is one of the best strength coaches in the world. He trains Thor Bjornson, who's the world's strongest man, and has the world record for deadlift. Very intense guy, amazing, lovely guy. And I, he's, I basically like, got a little consult from him. And he's like, hey, if you want, I could train you for the whole 100 days. And I was like, well, yeah, let's do it. And so, but like, protocol very intense. It's like, four days a week, two to three hour sessions, every day. And.

• 1:03:31Speaker 03

  So your arm wasn't hurting when you held the baby?

• 1:03:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, luckily, there's no bicep. So, so powerlifting, it's a deadlift, it's a squat, and it's a bench press. So the bicep's not as activated. But, like, I, looking back, I'm like, that was through the period of sleep deprivation. I was, I was getting two hours of sleep some nights, and I would just show up, and I'd be like, like, lifting the most weights I've ever lifted before. It was just so ironic that, at the time that I was getting my strongest physically, I was becoming my weakest mentally, and emotionally. And I pushed through, and, you know, I remember actually getting closer, essentially, it was like, day one, my first day powerlifting, day 100, performing in a powerlifting competition, where I'm competing against other people who are like amateurs, but like, trying to

• 1:04:17Speaker 00

  become professional powerlifters. And it was like, a whole thing. There was like, an audience, and a stage, and you're like, lifting in front of everybody. And I got, my wife did, she took the full night one night, and let me sleep in, so I could, I could actually show up and lift weights and perform. But I remember just finishing that, being like, what, like, what was I thinking? Like, what was I, why did I, and I see this with my friends, too, who have kids, where it's like, you're just doing whatever you can to hold on to a piece of yourself. And for me, that was like, it was the mix of being a creator, and, and being able to like, push myself and challenge myself, and, and lift weights. And it was something that would have been relatively easy before I had kids. But now

• 1:04:58Speaker 00

  it's like, okay, I actually need to slow down. I need to, I can't be making as many videos. I can't be trying to make as much social content. I can't spend as much time on my work as I once wanted to. I need to have a slower, more balanced life as a creator, so then I can actually enjoy the moments with my family. And also give myself a little bit of grace, if I, if I haven't had enough sleep the night before.

• 1:05:22Speaker 03

  And so, to round this out, would you say that you have reconnected with your old self, or you've discovered a new version of yourself?

• 1:05:29Speaker 00

  I've discovered a new version of myself. So, you know, to go back to like, that, that initial moment, right, where I, I told Nat, like, I needed help, and I started, I got, I went into therapy. For me, it took a while, but the first act of creation that I had was just going to a coffee shop and writing, and then just journaling my thoughts, and just letting it all pour out onto the page. And just, kind of discovering myself through the process of writing again. And it was like, it was, it was quite hard to get to that moment. The next day was a little bit easier, the next day was a little bit easier. I gave myself some space to be able to like, be creative again, and make stuff. And it was, it was, I think it was probably about eight months from the day that I, I

• 1:06:13Speaker 00

  took a step away from YouTube, that I decided to come back and make a video again. And, you know, I've been vulnerable on camera before, and I started making this video, and it's like, pretty scripted, I've got like, an outline, I know the things that I want to talk about. And then, it was like, you know, 10 minutes into recording that video, I just like, I was like, I'm back. And then I just like, burst out into tears, crying. And I was like, shit, I'm gonna have to include this in the video. I can't, I can't not include like, this, this, this moment where, not that I'm against vulnerability, or men crying, like, I think that's really important. But I also.

• 1:06:41Speaker 03

  It's kind of what we do.

• 1:06:44Speaker 00

  I'm in the right room, I guess. But I, I also didn't want it to feel like performative. It was just like, a real moment, that like, I was like, I wasn't trying to turn on the camera and cry. I wasn't trying to like, you know, it just came out, and I was, it wasn't, it wasn't in the script. But it, I just realized how important it was to me to find that part of myself again, to find the joy in making stuff again. And it was, yeah, like, I could say that I found the spark again in creating, but I'm not the same person. I'm not the same person I was before. My life looks very different. But I am able to find similar amounts of joy in my work, more joy with my family, also

• 1:07:28Speaker 00

  more frustration. It's still some anger, and still some resentment. But it's, I think I've come through feeling a lot more, and being a lot more open with my, my emotions than I was before.

• 1:07:39Speaker 03

  That's a lovely, a lovely thing to share, because I know there'll be so many people listening to this, who are feeling that way right now, like that loneliness and that exhaustion. And it is, every time you hear someone else going through it, it just makes it a bit easier. So, yeah. Thanks for being so generous with your story today.

• 1:07:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, thanks, boys.

• 1:07:55Speaker 03

  Thanks, man.

• 1:07:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, this is fun.

• 1:08:00Speaker 03

  If you enjoyed this episode, and want a little more, you might enjoy our subscriber only apps, available on Patreon and Apple Podcasts. If you want a little more, but don't want to pay anymore, then you can join our newsletter at theimperfects.com.au. And while you're there, you'll be able to see the names and faces of all the incredible people who helped make this show. A show made on the lands of the Wurundjeri Wurundjeri people, and we pay our respects to elders past and present. The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service, and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment, or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you're struggling, please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 131114.