02 Alan Jones | Defence questions suppressed while judge decides relevance

Alan Jones allegedly told Complainant J "there are no rules" before an alleged assault at his country property in Fitzroy Falls. Defence barrister Gabrielle Bashir's cross examination has included a line of questioning the prosecution says should not be admissible. Sydney reporter Isobel Roe and Stocky were both in court for Complainant J's cross examination — including the portions that have now been suppressed, while the judge decides their relevance. If you have any questions you'd like Isobel and Stocky to answer in future episodes, please email [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. Watch this episode here: The Case Of… & Mushroom Case Daily — YouTube https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLn2RjxYNpcawm95Te5eEERTTX5EiN-igi Sexual assault support services: MARS Australia (for men affected by rape and sexual abuse) https://marsaustralia.com.au/ on (07) 3857 1222, National Survivors Foundation https://igff.org.au/ on 1300 124 43 The Case Of is the follow-up to the hit podcast Mushroom Case Daily, and all episodes of that show will remain available in the back catalogue of The Case Of.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Patricia Carvallis, the host of Politics Now. And sometimes it can be hard to cut through all the noise from the Canberra bubble. But on the Politics Now podcast, bursting it wide open is our core business. I'm joined by the brightest minds at the ABC to break down the polly speak and have a chat about what's actually going on behind the scenes. It's called Politics Now and you can find it on ABC Listen. ABC Listen, podcasts, radio, news, music and more.

• 0:42Stephen Stockwell?

  Alan Jones was in his 60s when he allegedly assaulted a teenage athlete. Now, as an 85-year-old, he sits in court as his defence barrister challenges that man's account. I'm Stephen Stockwell and just a heads up, there are some graphic descriptions in this episode and we'll give you a warning when they come up. This is episode two of the case of Alan Jones.

• 1:05Speaker 02

  Veteran broadcaster Alan Jones has been a giant of the Australian media landscape.

• 1:10Speaker 03

  Some people said that he was more powerful than the Prime Minister.

• 1:14Speaker 04

  There was an 83-year-old male arrested this morning.

• 1:18Speaker 05

  Detectives from the Child Abuse Squad turned up at Alan Jones' luxury apartment down there at Circular Quay.

• 1:23Speaker 02

  Following allegations that he indecently assaulted multiple young men.

• 1:27Speaker 06

  I'm not going to dwell here on the allegations made about me, other than to say that I refute them entirely.

• 1:34Stephen Stockwell?

  The most serious allegations that we have heard against the former broadcaster Alan Jones have been put before the court. What complainant Jay says happened in the evening at the broadcaster's country estate when he visited. But then, in the cross-examination, challenges to the complainant's evidence and his credibility have begun. There for all of this has been ABC Court reporter Isobel Rowe. G'day Isabel.

• 1:55Speaker 04

  Good morning.

• 1:56Stephen Stockwell?

  Before we dive into this air, can you wrap up the last couple of days for us in 60 seconds or so?

• 2:01Speaker 04

  Yes, so we've heard much more from complainant Jay, the first of six men who is accusing Alan Jones of indecent assault when this man was allegedly 17 years old. We've heard about a trip to Fitzroy Falls, a dinner. We've heard allegations about what happened in that house and in the bedroom of that house. We've heard allegations about a final visit to Alan Jones' apartment where complainant Jay plans to confront him, essentially. We also heard why complainant Jay came forward to police. And then we started the cross-examination, the bundle of dynamite, as you mentioned, which we can't tell you because of a suppression order that's currently in place.

• 2:41Stephen Stockwell?

  Thank you Isabel. We finished our last episode talking about complainant Jay visiting Fitzroy Falls, Alan Jones' country estate. We talked about, you know, some of the alleged kissing that occurred when he arrived, how Alan Jones allegedly touched complainant Jay's penis on the drive out there. And then in the evening, they sit down for dinner. What unfolds in the evening?

• 3:02Speaker 04

  Yeah, so we've heard about more about what allegedly happened inside the Fitzroy Falls property. It's Alan Jones' farm stay, it's kind of isolated in the hinterland of southern Highlands in New South Wales. They basically sit down to have dinner because they're staying the night. Jay says that he notices Alan Jones having wine, he makes a comment about the wine being nice and Alan Jones says, "Oh, I don't pay more than, you know, a couple of dollars for a bottle of wine." Asks if he can have a glass and Alan Jones says that he can. They're talking over dinner and he says, Jay says, "I remember..."

• 3:41Speaker 04

  Alan Jones really directly saying, "There's only one rule here, there are no rules." Now, allegedly, they sort of finish dinner and he says that he thinks the table is cleared and Alan Jones says to him, "I want you to go and have a shower and come back in a robe and nothing else." And he does that, he says he goes and has the shower and he says as he's walking away, he remembers Alan Jones saying to him, "A robe and nothing else," sort of calling out behind him. Jay says he goes and has the shower, he puts the robe on, but he puts underpants on.

• 4:25Speaker 04

  And he was asked why he did that by the prosecutor and Jay said, "Well, I felt like I knew what was going to happen. You know, what had happened in the car, I knew what was going to happen if I, you know, went back out there."

• 4:40Stephen Stockwell?

  Yep. The descriptions of Jay, when he's talking about Alan Jones saying that, you know, "A robe and nothing else," you know, he really emphasised, I suppose, the emphasis of how he says Alan Jones said that, you know, "A robe and nothing else," like very direct.

• 4:55Speaker 04

  He used the word "direct" very often in the way he says Alan Jones spoke to him.

• 5:00Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah.

• 5:01Speaker 04

  So Jay says, you know, he comes back, he has the underpants on, they're in the living room and he sits on the couch with him, with Alan Jones. And he says his heart was racing in that moment. And he says Alan Jones then rubs his penis on the outside of his robe and asks if it felt good. And he says sort of nothing or he doesn't really know. Then they sort of sit there for a bit and watch sport, like nothing happened, he says.

• 5:42Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah. And Jay says that Alan Jones was wearing a robe at this time as well?

• 5:47Speaker 04

  Yeah, so Jay says that Alan Jones was wearing a robe at the same time. Then they finish watching TV, I think Jay says something like, "I'm going to go to bed." So they allegedly head into the bedroom. And I'll put a content warning over this next bit because it does get quite graphic. Jay says he goes into the bedroom and he sort of has just gotten in there and Alan Jones knocks on the door. He says it was only a minute or so after he got in, he says he remembers the light was off, but there was light coming from the bathroom. And he says Alan Jones sort of says, you know, gives his, as he says has done before, sort of puts his arms out for a hug, does a sort of passionate, "I love you mate" or "I love you."

• 6:32Speaker 04

  And then says Alan Jones puts his hand on his backside and then the other hand on his shoulder and sort of pulls him in. That's where he alleges there is another kiss. And then he says that Alan Jones takes his underpants from under his robe and sort of pulls them down. And it appears at the time, he says Alan Jones is also not wearing underwear under his robe because he feels their penises touching, essentially. And he says that Alan Jones, you know, moved so that their penises would cross each other, are the words that he used.

• 7:13Speaker 04

  Then Jay alleges that he sort of feels a moment where the grip loosens, he moves backwards, he goes and sits on the bed and he sort of moves up the bed a bit. Then it's alleged that Alan Jones follows him to the bed, sits next to him and touches him again, allegedly, asks if he liked it. And then says allegedly something to Jay, like, "Do you want to do this with me? You know, do it yourself. You know, do you want to do this together?" And Jay tells the court that he takes his own genitals and he masturbates himself,

• 7:54Speaker 04

  while Alan Jones, he says, is, well, he appears to be doing the same thing.

• 7:59Stephen Stockwell?

  Yep. And the prosecutor asked Jay at this point if he looked over at any point to Alan Jones and he said he had and he sort of gave a description, basically, of what he saw.

• 8:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, he basically was asked to say what he saw Alan Jones was doing. And he sort of pauses as he's giving evidence and then he says something quite specific about Alan Jones' genitals, essentially. And we won't go into it, but what he was doing was, you know, saying, "I saw it." And, you know, but it's important, I think, for the court to understand and for us to understand that he was trying to say that he had seen it and that's what he was being asked.

• 8:46Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, absolutely. And, I mean, yeah, you know, these descriptions are important for the court to hear and understand. Like, they've gone into much more detail than we've gone into here in the courtroom. And I assume and I imagine that those descriptions are important because they may be corroborated or they may be contradicted by other witnesses.

• 9:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's right.

• 9:04Stephen Stockwell?

  And that would go to the weight that Judge Walsh can put on that evidence as he's making his decision.

• 9:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, there's far more detail than anyone would ever want about, you know, all of this out there, but it is all, you know, unfortunately, really important in a case like this.

• 9:16Stephen Stockwell?

  Yep, yep.

• 9:18Speaker 04

  The prosecutor also asks Jay in this moment, "Why did you, you know, masturbate? Why did you do this?" And he says he felt trapped and that he, you know, felt that it was the quickest way to get this over and done with. And that if he could just do it, he could go and have a shower and he could clean up and it would be over. That was the answer he gave.

• 9:43Stephen Stockwell?

  Yep. Alan Jones, I think Jay has a shower following this and by the time he's out, I think Alan Jones has left the room, they don't see each other until following morning. And from my memory of Jay's evidence, that interaction was kind of like that sort of business mode kind of interaction. And what I found kind of interesting from that was that, you know, Jay was asked what or how he left the property, like what happened the following day. And I think he remembered having breakfast, but he actually couldn't recall returning from that property, how he got home, any of that process or anything like that. Is that right?

• 10:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, he said he didn't remember the trip home. He must have driven Alan Jones' car home, he thinks, because that's how they got there. He drove Alan Jones in his car. But yeah, he doesn't remember it. And he said, "Yeah, that morning it was businesslike, it was like nothing had ever happened the night before." And he said he sort of just felt like he wanted to get out of there.

• 10:41Stephen Stockwell?

  Following that visit, it's actually, according to complainant Jay, a little bit of time passes until he sees Alan Jones again. It sounds like they, you know, stay in contact, there are text messages and things like that between the two, but he doesn't actually see Alan Jones for a little while until he gets a message to, you know, visit him at his apartment, basically. And this is the moment, according to Jay's evidence, that he decides he's going to stand up to Alan Jones, that, you know, this tainted relationship that he's described has gone on for long enough, this is the moment where he wants to confront him, tell him this needs to stop, that it can't go on any longer. What happens when he arrives?

• 11:17Speaker 04

  Well, he doesn't do it. Yeah, he says, um, he had all the plans to say something, um, and that he is disappointed in himself, uh, that he didn't say anything. And I think I was filing a story while some of this evidence was giving, so I'm going to hand over to you for the more specifics of what else happened in the Macquarie Street apartment that day.

• 11:38Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, the thing that stuck with me was what Complain at Jay says happened when he arrives in this apartment. So he arrives in the apartment, um, and Alan Jones, according to Complain at Jay, immediately comments on his appearance, uh, in the room, you know, comments on, I think maybe his teeth looking slightly yellow, the, the way he's dressed, and he gives him $500 in cash, according to Complain at Jay, to go and buy some clothes. And Jay wanders out, gets some pants, a shirt, a belt, some, some white shoes that he, he notices and goes back to the apartment, um, and, you know, offers Alan Jones the, the cash when he gets there, according to Complain at Jay. And Jones says, no, you keep it. And according to Complain at Jay, sort of reached out and closes his hand, um, over the money. Uh,

• 12:21Stephen Stockwell?

  he remembers putting it back into his right pocket. And then, yeah, they have dinner. Um, Complain at Jay told the court that he has a shower. Throughout that, he's expecting Alan Jones to kind of come into the room. Um, and he doesn't. It's not until after the shower that Complain at Jay said that, um, Alan Jones came into the room. And in our last episode, we described these kisses, well, Complain at Jay kind of describes these kisses, kisses as these kind of like chomping motions. He alleges that Alan Jones comes into the room while he's there and another one of those, uh, moments, according to Complain at Jay, where Alan Jones says, oh, I love you, mate. And, you know, it's this kind of chomping kiss. And, yeah, the, the evidence from Complain at Jay following that

• 13:02Stephen Stockwell?

  was, you know, really, you know, it's quite emotional from Complain at Jay. And he's talking about how disappointed he feels in himself for not saying something. He, yeah, just sort of sits there and sort of reflects on it. He realises and talks about the kind of the power that someone like Alan Jones has. He talks about how he kind of froze in that moment. And he, he said it was, you know, different from being there and planning to do it. You know, he, he talked about how keen he was to confront Alan Jones and, you know, sort of say what he was doing wasn't okay, but he didn't. Um, you know, he didn't think anyone would believe him. Um, you know, he thought if he stood up to him, he'd lose everything. He'd lose his athletic, athletic career. And, you know, it still upsets him now, knowing that he, he didn't do that. So that was that exchange. He said he called

• 13:45Stephen Stockwell?

  his girlfriend at that point as well and just spoke to her, not about anything that had happened, but said it was comforting being able to have a conversation with her and just hear her voice in that moment. And stays in the apartment. Alan Jones is gone in the morning, uh, assumedly, according to Complain at Jay, doing the breakfast show. And, um, yeah, it's a little wild, really. Well, he doesn't really say, I don't think Alan Jones after that much, does he?

• 14:06Speaker 04

  Um, no, not really. He sort of says that that's when the relationship started to become less and less, like they saw each other in person, less. Um, and then the payments that we've heard about continue. So we heard earlier in this case that there was $400 a week initially being transferred into his, uh, bank account in fortnightly payments, so $800 a fortnight. And that was to cover, um, what Alan Jones framed as sort of, you know, helping with his athletics career. Um, that increased, we heard, to $500 at one point. It was after a trip to Canberra,

• 14:48Speaker 04

  where allegedly Jay said Alan Jones had told me I'd been a good boy and I'd get more money. We then heard that it increased to $600 at some point. Uh, and then the payments just continue. We heard until 2012, yesterday, which is quite some time after these allegations are meant to have happened in 2003, 2004. Uh, and he gives evidence yesterday that he basically gets this, um, call from Alan Jones's accountant, uh, who's just quite matter of fact and says, look, the payments will be stopping. Um, and he got given this document, um, sent to him from, um, Belford Productions, which is Alan Jones's, I guess his media company, the, the name he operates

• 15:31Speaker 04

  under. Um, and it said something about $110,000 that you'd been paid, uh, from Alan Jones. And he said, he called Alan Jones, he was a bit confused, he didn't know if that meant that he had to pay the money back. Uh, but Alan Jones said to him, no, no, no, you don't need to pay the money back. Um, so he said by that point, you know, they were not speaking as much. He was doing less in, in his athletics career. Uh, there was a few texts and like the occasional call, but essentially their relationship, he said, had petered out.

• 16:05Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, the, the document, um, that was sent to, um, Complain at Jay, where he says was sent to him from Alan Jones, was interesting because that number, $110,000, for the years that we know these payments were coming in, uh, and the amounts that we know they were, and they've been quite specific outlining the dates and all of that, and there've been bank statements shown to the court or not, rather shown to the, uh, the witnesses and put before the court. Um, didn't feel right, so I got a spreadsheet out and I, you know, anyone who listens to the case regularly knows that any excuse for a spreadsheet.

• 16:34Speaker 04

  I don't do spreadsheets, so you can keep doing that stuff.

• 16:36Stephen Stockwell?

  That's all right. I'll screenshot you and give you the relevant bits. But, um, yeah, I put that in just to sort of see how they matched up. And they didn't seem to match up in the way that I was expecting them to. So, uh, something for us to unpack a bit more later on, uh, at the end of this trial to see, you know, talk about where that might have been. And, you know, there were other gifts and one-off payments as well that were discussed. Uh, Jay thought there might have been payments to help with registrations and credit cards and, and things like that, uh, over these years. Um, you know, it is a, a number of years that this kind of relationship happens over, uh, we've heard in the evidence from Complain at Jay. Does he ever tell anyone?

• 17:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, he says he told his girlfriend, uh, at one point. He says he sort of, you know, they were having issues and he sat down and he said, Alan Jones has been touching me. Um, and she said, well, you have to report it. You know, you've got to tell someone. And, uh, Jay said, I, he told her he couldn't. Um, and he said he's, you know, talked about it before in the, in the case, and he's admitted that he was, I guess, fearful that, earlier fearful about saying anything because the payments would stop and he recognised that it was, you know, important money for him. Um, but yeah, he, he basically said to his girlfriend, I can't, I can't tell anyone. And he'd be embarrassed. Yeah.

• 17:51Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah. The defence has made, um, a lot of the timing of when people have come forward with their allegations against Alan Jones. You know, we've heard in the openings, them talking about the people who came forward as part of reporting by Kate McLemont. Um, and then we have other complainants coming forward, um, at different times after that. Complain at Jay doesn't come forward to police until after Alan Jones's arrest. We talked about that in our last episode. He sees the arrest, he contacts the police station that, uh, Alan Jones is taken to and asked to talk to someone there. What did he say about why he came forward?

• 18:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, he, he basically said sort of a series of quite, I guess, emotional things. He said, um, that he was a father now and that he's a proud dad and he wanted to teach his child, uh, right from wrong. Um, and he said what the defendant did was wrong. Uh, he said he, he sort of volunteered this information. He's like, I don't want money. Um, you know, I don't want anything out of this. I just want justice for what happened. He said, I won't accept anything from the defendant. I don't want anything. Uh, and the people need me to do this. And I think he was suggesting that, you know, he wanted to, you know, complain, he wanted to make the complaint and show that that was something you could do if that had, if this had happened to other people in his life or other

• 19:07Speaker 04

  people that heard the story. Um, so, yeah, he was quite forceful in saying, I don't want any money. You know, I don't want compensation from Alan Jones and I won't accept anything if it's offered. You know, I'm, I just want justice. What he says is justice.

• 19:23Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah. All right. And Isabel, you know, we, the cross-examination of Complain at Jay started Tuesday afternoon. So been working through kind of a, a day and a half of this at this point. And one of the things we learnt, uh, in that cross-examination was that this wasn't Complain at Jay's first time in court.

• 19:42Speaker 04

  No. He says he's done it once before. Um, but also because what we heard is that after he finished his early athletics careers, he went on to be a police officer. Um, and he was a police officer for some years. And as part of that, he was asked under cross-examination, you know, have you ever been trained to give evidence? Uh, and he said, yeah, he, he got that training kind of early in his career in police college. Um, what the cross-examination was trying to do, it seems, was to, you know, cast doubt on whether he was trying to speak in a certain way or, you know, he was practised at giving evidence. That's a line of questioning, you know, that may come up

• 20:26Speaker 04

  again. Um, but that was kind of all we heard of it at the time, you know, have, have you learnt about how to do this? Um, and, you know, he, he only said, I've, I've given evidence in court once before. He'd been at a couple of bail applications. And yes, he got a basic training when he was at, um, police college.

• 20:45Stephen Stockwell?

  And Isabel, yesterday in court, there was some, you know, a lot of really interesting evidence that was presented and discussed with Complain at Jay. I would love to tell everyone about that, but we cannot. How come?

• 21:01Speaker 04

  Because there is a non-publication order over the cross-examination as it stands, that possibly won't be forever, probably not forever, but for now. When we got into the cross-examination, before the suppression order was placed over it, there was some concern about inadmissibility from the Crown. So the Crown was going, was saying, we don't want this line of questioning to be included because we think it's inadmissible or should be ruled inadmissible. The judge was like, well, I can't rule something inadmissible if I haven't heard it. So we need to hear it. And so he wanted to hear the whole argument. The problem with that, the Crown said, is that the media's here.

• 21:44Speaker 04

  And usually in a jury trial, what happens is if there is an argument about inadmissibility, the jury gets sent away. And anything that happens when the jury's not there, the media doesn't report because that would be prejudicial to the jury. Now, in this case, we don't have a jury, but the Crown says we do have witnesses and they argue that witnesses can be prejudiced.

• 22:04Stephen Stockwell?

  Hmm.

• 22:05Speaker 04

  So the judge agreed and he said, you're right, there's a non-publication order over all of this. And it's until I say it's no longer there, and he'll hear the argument about admissibility at some point in the future, potentially the end of the cross-examination of this witness.

• 22:24Stephen Stockwell?

  Yep.

• 22:25Speaker 04

  So at some point he'll make a decision on whether parts of that, all of it, some of it, we'll hear about.

• 22:30Stephen Stockwell?

  Mm-hmm.

• 22:31Speaker 04

  Or we won't.

• 22:32Stephen Stockwell?

  Yep. I think the, the moment that led to this, you know, it's an objection that the prosecution has made to kind of have this conversation about what is admissible, what's not, and to lead Judge Walsh to this decision. And it's not the only objection, there have been a number of objections over the last couple of days. I think yesterday, we started with like a row of four or five. There was a point on Tuesday as well where Alan Jones' barrister, Gabriel Bashir, was popping up every, you know, few minutes with an objection to clarify something, to point out that the witness had made a gesture and the gesture hadn't been recorded by the prosecutor. A man of significant patience, Justice Walsh.

• 23:12Speaker 04

  Well, he sort of made the point that this is different. It's not a jury, so you don't need to object and explain something as much as you would with a jury. He says, I know what I'm doing, essentially. I've been here for 17 years. I'm, you know, I will just, I know what you mean. I know if something is, is legal or not in this argument. You don't need to leap up every three seconds and tell me.

• 23:35Stephen Stockwell?

  Yep.

• 23:36Speaker 04

  So potentially that point's been taken. And he had been, yeah, so essentially then he allowed all of this evidence in the cross-examination to be put to him, mostly objection-free.

• 23:48Stephen Stockwell?

  Hmm.

• 23:49Speaker 04

  Because he knows that he's going to go back, look over it all and decide what is and is not in a, in, what is and is not admissible.

• 23:57Stephen Stockwell?

  Yep, yep, yep. I, I noticed as well, he is, he's also, you know, while there are objections, he's also jumping in at moments when there is an inappropriate question that's asked. You know, there'll be a question that may be asked at some point of Complainant Jay that shouldn't be allowed to be asked, and he will jump up straight, well, quite quickly and say, don't answer that. And then the question will be rephrased or asked in a slightly different way and picked up there. And there was a lighter moment as well at one point in court yesterday. See if we can thread the needle on the MPO with this one because it was after that point, but it doesn't really relate to cross-examination, so I'm going to try my luck here. You know, as we've discussed, Complainant Jay is an athlete and there was a point where

• 24:37Stephen Stockwell?

  Gabriel Bashir was taking him through some of his achievements and, you know, basically talking through, oh, you know, did you win X on X year? And he said, look, I won a lot. It was hard, yeah, I couldn't, I couldn't say. And his honour congratulated Complainant Jay.

• 24:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, he was like, hmm, congratulations. There was, it was a moment of levity in the courtroom, which always feels a little bit odd in something so serious, but everyone sits there for so long with each other all day. You sort of have this weird, I was going to say parasocial, but you're in the right, in the same room. You have this strange relationship with everyone by the end of it, I think.

• 25:14Stephen Stockwell?

  Hmm, yeah. And there is, there's so much tension and there is this, this, this build-up of it. And those moments are this sort of like release valve of, you know, you realise there is disrespect between these people, you know, this, the cross-examination is, feels confrontational at times. There are challenges, these are difficult questions being asked. And then there's a moment like that where you realise that, oh no, these people aren't, you know, enemies in the sense that it might feel like they are. These are all people and they all respect each other in these ways. And it, it comes forward in those moments, which I always appreciate.

• 25:43Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 25:44Stephen Stockwell?

  We are getting a lot of questions, Isabel, to [email protected]. The inbox has started to bulge as the, the trial of, well, the case of Alan Jones has begun. We have one here from Lee and Mal, and they have asked, given the age of some of the complainants when the offending occurred, why are we not using the term paedophilia instead of saying young men?

• 26:03Speaker 04

  Hmm. Well, we use the words interest in younger men because that's what the court uses. And we would never use words the court doesn't use because we are here, court reporting essentially.

• 26:14Stephen Stockwell?

  Mm-hmm.

• 26:15Speaker 04

  But the other, but the reason the court is not using them is because, well firstly, paedophilia, I, and I did some research before this, paedophilia is not a legal term, it is a, a medical or a scientific term. And it means young, very young children or in, and in legal terms, young is, or of, under ages 16 or younger. So while they were younger than Alan Jones, you know, they were not children, they were of consenting age and therefore that's why the court and we would not use the term paedophilia.

• 26:52Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, thank you, Isabel. Thank you, Lee and Mal, for that question as well. It's really helpful to be able to explain and give some context to some of these things as well. Another one here, Isabel from Bethany, she has noticed that we've been referring to the man overseeing this trial as a judge, Judge Glenn Walsh. She's asked, is he not a magistrate? Has this been heard in the magistrate or local court?

• 27:10Speaker 04

  He was before March, but I did some research again and, oh, well, I knew this because I've most recently become a court reporter and my elder court reporter colleague, Jamie, was like, make sure you remember that magistrates are now judges in New South Wales. Everyone's a judge, except if you're a justice in the federal court. But a judge is now for everyone and they changed this because they recognised that magistrates were doing the work of judges, they were doing a lot more, you know, in, for example, this is a massive trial, that a magistrate, apparently magistrate felt not as significant.

• 27:51Stephen Stockwell?

  There we go.

• 27:52Speaker 04

  So everyone's a judge, you're a judge in the magistrate's court, and it actually is also the local court. So we're almost doing away with the term magistrate at all. And in the district court, you're also a judge. Everyone's a judge, you're a judge, I'm a judge, we're all judges.

• 28:08Stephen Stockwell?

  Everyone's a judge in New South Wales.

• 28:09Speaker 04

  Everyone's a judge in New South Wales.

• 28:11Stephen Stockwell?

  Love this for me. When I go to a different state, I need to remember who's a magistrate, who's a judge.

• 28:14Speaker 04

  That's right. Apparently the Northern Territory have done the same, they've gotten rid of magistrates and now everyone's a judge.

• 28:21Stephen Stockwell?

  Look at this, we're all learning. This is great. Speaking of clarifications, Isabel Scott has been in touch, sending an email to [email protected]. He's correcting us. He says, the difference between sexual touching and indecent assault is actually the timing. It's a similar offence, but after 2018, the legislation was updated. So it means that, you know, those, those offences, basically after that date, are now referred to as sexual touching before that, indecent assault.

• 28:46Speaker 04

  That makes a lot of sense and thank you because I went back and looked at the timing of the charges and the two, of, two of the more recent charges, like 2017, 2018 were sexual touching as opposed to indecent assault. So thank you for clarifying.

• 29:02Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah.

• 29:03Speaker 04

  That shows that we don't know everything.

• 29:04Stephen Stockwell?

  That's it. And no, this is the wonders of the case of inbox, [email protected]. Very much appreciate all of the emails that are being sent there as well.

• 29:12Speaker 04

  All the experts out there, so that's good.

• 29:14Stephen Stockwell?

  Absolutely. And I'm very excited, Isabel, to announce the return of more of a statement. And now this, you know, you're a new player here, so this is where someone sends in something that isn't quite a question, but is nonetheless very interesting and worth talking about. And this one is from Paula in the UK, whose partner is a silk who works in the English civil courts. And Paula explains that her partner needs to refer to lots of documents when they're working. Now, this is talking about the use of paper in courts. And so Paula's partner, a silk in the English courts, and says that she needs so many documents when she's working. She doesn't have a script when she's cross-examining people or talking to people, she has lots of different documents that she's using. And we've seen this in the court here, as Gabriel Bashir, often working from four or five different documents as she is kind of talking to Complainant Jay. So she needs all of that to kind of refer to.

• 29:57Stephen Stockwell?

  Paula says her partner, when she's working at home or in chambers, has five different screens with all the different stuff on, but couldn't take that to court because she wouldn't be able to see the judge there.

• 30:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's true.

• 30:06Stephen Stockwell?

  So that's why the paper is there. And I will say, the paper in the courtroom is growing substantially. I, I thought you'd sort of overegged it a bit last week when I got there on Monday and I was like, oh, there's like four folders, but there's a lot of folders now.

• 30:17Speaker 04

  There are many folders, they're piled on one side, they're piled on the other side. And I actually have always amazed, I've been amazed at the way the barristers are constantly like, they're like, and your honour, and then they'll be like halfway talking and they'll pull another piece over and they'll be like, and then this, and then they'll refer to this. And you've got to be across so many different pieces of paper.

• 30:37Stephen Stockwell?

  Mm-hmm.

• 30:38Speaker 04

  They're not reading off one sheet. They are, it sounds like they're do it, they're kind of making it up as they go, you know, they're like, and this was here and they remember this was there. It's a skill, it's a real skill.

• 30:47Stephen Stockwell?

  It is very impressive to watch unfold in the courtroom. It's been a pleasure, Isabel, to be in court with you throughout this week as well. If you have any questions you'd like us to answer, please get in touch, [email protected] is where you can reach us. Isabel, where are we off to next?

• 31:01Speaker 04

  We are off to court, Stocky. We are still hearing from Complainant Jay in the cross-examination that we may or may not be able to tell you about. And then that will end the week, we think. And then next week, potentially another complainant, potentially different witnesses.

• 31:20Stephen Stockwell?

  Yep, we'll find out, we'll see when we get there. There's plenty to unpack, along with some very exciting developments for our Lord and Saviour, ABC Listen from next week. There'll be videos available on there, so be able to watch Isabel and I talking through the case of Alan Jones. So keep up to date with videos on ABC Listen. If you're listening to this somewhere else, please leave us a rating or a review, tell your friends, share this around so that more people can follow the developments in this, you know, incredibly anticipated trial. So much detail coming out in the case of Alan Jones. If this has raised anything for you, you can reach out to 1800RESPECT and we'll put a few more resources in the episode description as well for you to review. Be back in your feed on Tuesday.

• 32:05Stephen Stockwell?

  The Case of Alan Jones is produced by ABC Audio Studios and ABC News. This episode was reported by Isabel Rowe and presented by me, Stephen Stockwell. Our supervising producer is Greg Muller and our executive producer is Claire Rollinson. Thank you to senior lawyer Jasmine Sims for her legal advice to the Sydney newsroom and to Audio Studios manager, Eric George. This episode was produced on the land of the Gadigal and Marangiru people.