01 Alan Jones | Alleged payments for 'being a good boy'

Alan Jones allegedly kissed a teenager and touched his genitals in the early 2000s, a Sydney court has heard. Reporter Isobel Roe and host Stephen Stockwell break down all the biggest moments from the first day of this highly anticipated trial. Alan Jones denies all the charges against him. If you have any questions you'd like Isobel and Stocky to answer in future episodes, please email [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. Watch this episode on YouTube here: The Case Of… & Mushroom Case Daily — YouTube https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLn2RjxYNpcawm95Te5eEERTTX5EiN-igi Sexual assault support services: MARS Australia (for men affected by rape and sexual abuse) https://marsaustralia.com.au/ on (07) 3857 1222, National Survivors Foundation https://igff.org.au/ on 1300 124 43 The Case Of is the follow-up to the hit podcast Mushroom Case Daily, and all episodes of that show will remain available in the back catalogue of The Case Of.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Patricia Carvallis, the host of Politics Now. And sometimes it can be hard to cut through all the noise from the Canberra bubble. But on the Politics Now podcast, bursting it wide open is our core business. I'm joined by the brightest minds at the ABC to break down the polly speak and have a chat about what's actually going on behind the scenes. It's called Politics Now and you can find it on ABC Listen.

• 0:28Speaker 01

  ABC Listen, podcasts, radio, news, music and more.

• 0:42Stephen Stockwell?

  The first man to testify against Alan Jones told the court he was kissed on the lips and paid a weekly allowance that Alan Jones allegedly said no one needs to know about. I'm Stephen Stockwell and just a heads up, there is some graphic language in this episode and some descriptions of alleged assaults. This is episode one of the case of Alan Jones.

• 1:01Speaker 03

  Veteran broadcaster Alan Jones has been a giant of the Australian media landscape.

• 1:07Speaker 04

  Some people said that he was more powerful than the Prime Minister.

• 1:11Speaker 05

  There was an 83 year old male arrested this morning.

• 1:14Speaker 06

  Detectives from the Child Abuse Squad turned up at Alan Jones' luxury apartment down there at Circular Quay.

• 1:20Speaker 03

  Following allegations that he indecently assaulted multiple young men.

• 1:23Speaker 07

  I'm not going to dwell here on the allegations made about me, other than to say that I refute them entirely.

• 1:30Stephen Stockwell?

  Claims of double dealing, treachery, rivalry on one side of this case, a description of tainted relationships on the other. The openings had been made and the first man to have his allegations against Alan Jones heard in court has started his evidence. And there for it all has been ABC Court reporter Isobel Rowe. Welcome Isabel.

• 1:49Speaker 05

  Thank you. Nice to be here with you.

• 1:51Stephen Stockwell?

  It is nice to have you here for this. There is so much to unpack. But before we dive in, can you sum up the first day of this trial in 60 seconds or so?

• 1:59Speaker 05

  Look, it was incredibly wild from the media point of view. It was packed. There was a huge amount of people outside and we went in, we really quickly started hearing from the first of the six men to give evidence, complainant Jay, who went into some pretty graphic detail about the sorts of assaults that they say happened with Alan Jones and the sort of relationship that he had with Alan Jones, the way he paid him money, gave him a car, all those sorts of things to support his career. But something that this man said he felt scared about, he felt fearful of Alan Jones. He felt he couldn't say anything about this alleged abuse because of what Alan Jones was giving him.

• 2:38Stephen Stockwell?

  Hmm. It was really confronting evidence in that first day of the trial, really kind of understanding the detail of some of the allegations that are made against this from a incredibly powerful broadcaster. There was so much interest in this trial that we had to line up outside of the courtroom. I was lining up for about quarter past nine, court opened at 10. So it was in that line Isabel, we were standing there and we got our first look at Alan Jones as he walked past into the court.

• 3:06Speaker 05

  That's right. People were wondering whether he would be like in a wheelchair and because he's 85. I mean, he's sort of getting on a bit. We haven't seen him around in public in ages, but he had a walking stick, but he was, you know, he was pretty upright, slow maybe, but expected for 85. And yeah, he came and sat in the court with us. There were so many people there. I was actually the last person in and they said the person after me, that's it. But yeah, there's only about 25 seats, I think, for media and the general public, who of course also were allowed in at this point of the case when the Crown was opening.

• 3:41Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, prosecution opening started quite quickly. You know, we really sort of dived in and that's where we started to get this, a kind of a much clearer picture of the complainants. So the people who've brought these allegations against Alan Jones.

• 3:51Speaker 05

  Yeah. So to recap, 22 charges all up Alan Jones is facing, 20 of assault with active indecency, two of sexual touching. The six men we have learned and will describe them as essentially two young athletes, someone from the media industry, a man who worked at a newspaper, a man he met at a charity event, and then a student, a year 12 student at the time who Alan Jones was sort of financially supporting. They are the people, the six who will eventually give evidence in this case. There was some talk about the reporting that happened in, for the Sydney Morning Herald

• 4:36Speaker 05

  in 2023. So that's where some of the allegations against Alan Jones initially came out. We don't know exactly who is who, but we did hear that some people came forward and spoke to police after those stories were published. And the police investigation really got underway after those stories were published in the Sydney Morning Herald in 2023.

• 5:00Stephen Stockwell?

  Hmm. Yeah, it was really interesting kind of understanding that timeline of when people had come forward and when they started talking to police. And we'll get a much clearer picture of that as well throughout the trial and as these complainants start giving evidence as well. There was no sense of theatre for the prosecution opening and that really surprised me initially because I'm used to these sort of like bombastic openings when there's a jury, but there's no jury, it's just a judge who's listening to this. So it's very technical. The prosecution kind of ran through each count. It was very much substance over style for the prosecution opening. And I was kind of wondering where the defence was going to go. And they kind of had this complete opposite approach. It was yeah, kind of bombastic, basically launching into this kind of trial by media narrative, right?

• 5:40Speaker 05

  Yeah, it was essentially, it was for the media because there was, as you say, there's no jury. So the defence wanted some quotes out there to really paint a picture of what they say this case is about. I think the main quote that really got everyone was rivalry, money, hatred, desperation. Those are the sorts of things that Gabrielle Bashir, who's Alan Jones' barrister in this case, is saying that this case is about. She's essentially tried to paint it as a media rivalry, that people like Ray Hadley, who was at 2GB at the time with Alan Jones, is someone who is, you know, out there planting rumours about him, out to destroy him, I think she said at one point.

• 6:25Speaker 05

  You know, she wanted the media reporting this to, to think that it was about competition in the industry and about people who hated Alan Jones, wanting these complainants to come forward and these stories out there. So it really gave a clear picture of what Alan Jones' defence will be. And of course, he denies all of this and he's pleaded not guilty to all of the charges.

• 6:51Stephen Stockwell?

  The way the defence kind of zeroed in on complainants to go, well, you've heard, you know, we've had the prosecution opening where, you know, we've had these allegations kind of laid out in. And then, you know, Gabrielle Bashir is talking about the different complainants saying, well, you know, complainant, you know, this complainant here, you know, you've heard this, but you know, we'll show that they're untrustworthy, that this person's untrustworthy as well. That was really kind of fascinating to hear that level of detail of where they're planning on going with some of these complainants.

• 7:18Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think she said one of the complainants, complainant A, is someone whose mother encouraged them to come forward to police and that they did that because the mother was no longer going to get money from Alan Jones. And then she pointed to complainant Jay, whose evidence we heard in chief yesterday. And she said, you know, he's concocted his story. He only came forward after all the media reporting. And she said, her quote was something like, you know, we will find out in this case what these complainants didn't tell police. And she pointed to a little dossier of, you know, information that she'd recently got that she thought was, you know, I think she said dynamite?

• 8:02Stephen Stockwell?

  A little bundle.

• 8:02Speaker 05

  A little bundle of dynamite. Yeah, the dynamite that was going to point to, you know, what these people really did or what they didn't, haven't told police. So yeah, it's, it's interesting to see where this will go with the defence.

• 8:14Stephen Stockwell?

  Very dramatic opening, very quick, very quick as well. It's like 12 minutes or something, I think, that she spoke for.

• 8:19Speaker 05

  That's true. Yeah.

• 8:21Stephen Stockwell?

  There. And then, yeah, we were into the first witness, complainant Jay. He's a young athlete. How did he first end up meeting Alan Jones?

• 8:27Speaker 05

  Yeah. So complainant Jay says he was in high school, essentially. He was a young athlete. He was like a promising sort of, you know, person in his career. And he said Alan Jones essentially took an interest in his career. He got in contact with the man's coach and got him into doing interview or be, come into his studio in Piermont. That's how they first struck up a relationship. Apparently they spoke many times over the years. One of the first things Alan Jones gave this young man was his first mobile phone. He said that, you know, he didn't have one. He came from a pretty poor family, didn't have much and getting this first phone, you know, was significant.

• 9:12Speaker 05

  And that's how Alan Jones allegedly contacted complainant Jay throughout the years, now that he had his own phone, it didn't have to go through the coach. And then eventually he ended up allegedly going to Alan Jones's apartment in Macquarie Street, not just the studio.

• 9:30Stephen Stockwell?

  Hmm. And, you know, we got a picture of kind of a bit of support as well as the phone. There was a car. There were also payments that he was offering, uh, complainant J or, you know, that complainant J says Alan Jones offered him to mean that he didn't have to work. He could focus on his athletic career as well. Um, what does complainant J say happened?

• 9:50Speaker 05

  So when he first went to the Macquarie Street apartment, that was the first alleged incident. He says he was watching TV with Alan Jones. They were sitting on the couch. They were talking about, uh, what was happening on the TV. And Alan Jones supposedly started talking about some of the people on the TV. And they talked about having to play larger athletes or African American athletes. And, uh, he said, oh, they're big everywhere. And then, and I'll just add, there's a graphic language warning here. Alan Jones allegedly then said, uh, to about one of the players on the TV, oh, he's got a big cock. And, uh, complainant J said, he remembers thinking that

• 10:31Speaker 05

  that was sort of unusual. Uh, and he said that was kind of his cue to leave. And he got up from the couch and, and thought he'd leave. And Alan Jones said, oh, righto, you know, you leave. And then a complainant J says Alan Jones sort of put his arms out and as if to say, you know, give me a hug. And he said, I love you. And the complainant said, I love you too. You've done a lot for me, you know, very grateful. And that's when complainant J says Alan Jones then gave, gave him a peck, as he described it, uh, on the lips. Um, and then he went on his way. He went and got the train and went home. That was the first alleged incident.

• 11:10Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah. And this is the first in several instances that complainant J kind of detailed in his evidence in court yesterday. It's the first of, uh, probably five or six that we kind of heard recounted to the court. Not all of them relate to charges and we'll talk a little bit about that. Um, what happened following this meeting?

• 11:29Speaker 05

  So allegedly he went back to the studio. He sort of continued to meet Alan Jones. Uh, and Alan Jones says at one point to him, I'm going to give you some money. Allegedly, he said he would give him $350 a week, but it was actually $400 when he looked at his bank account. And that was money, uh, that Alan Jones framed as, as something that could help him with his athletics career.

• 11:52Stephen Stockwell?

  Hmm.

• 11:52Speaker 05

  Essentially meaning he didn't have to work. Um, you know, he could focus on his career. Uh, and so he started getting $400 in his bank account, uh, fortnightly payments. So $400 a week, 800 payments every fortnight, um, for a little while. Uh, and at some point, he also got a car. So Alan Jones also, uh, took him to a car dealership at one point. We heard, uh, allegedly said, look, you know, this one's for you essentially. He said he thought it was about 11 or 12, maybe $13,000 worth.

• 12:23Stephen Stockwell?

  Yep.

• 12:24Speaker 05

  Uh, and that was his first car so that he could drive around and, um, drive himself to training. And, you know, these things he's were like, you know, these were amazing gifts that I was getting, um, from this man. And as you said, he came from a poor background. It was, you know, something he really appreciated.

• 12:39Stephen Stockwell?

  Okay. So we have Isabel, this kind of first alleged incident at Alan Jones's apartment. There is a second alleged incident at the apartment as well, I think in Alan Jones's off, office potentially.

• 12:51Speaker 05

  Yeah. So complainant J says on another occasion, he goes to Alan Jones's apartment. He's driven there by someone and allegedly, um, Alan Jones, he says, oh, can he come up? And Alan Jones says, no, he should stay in the car. Then he, uh, complainant J allegedly goes upstairs. He sees Alan in his office in the apartment. Um, complainant J alleges then that Alan Jones sort of gets up and hugs him and kisses him again. And he describes it as a, like a slobbering or, um, or chomping movement. Um, he uses that word to describe Alan Jones's kissing a few times, that it, that he, uh, gets sort of saliva on his face. And he says at one point, he needs to turn around and sort of wipe the saliva off his

• 13:35Speaker 05

  face with his shirt. Um, and then again, he goes, you know, he, he says that all of these times he keeps his mouth closed. He says he, you know, he just stands there when this is allegedly happening to him. He then leaves, goes downstairs, gets in the car, doesn't tell the person who he's with what happened. Um, and then, yeah, moves on.

• 13:55Stephen Stockwell?

  Yep. And there is a trip to Canberra at one point. I believe complainant J says he drives Alan Jones to some kind of election function.

• 14:03Speaker 05

  Yeah. Yeah. So he, he says he, Alan Jones sort of then gives him the keys to his car one day and says, drive me to Canberra. Um, so he gets in his big car. They're going down the highway. They head to Canberra. Um, Alan Jones goes to some, he, I don't know. He says the election, but he also says Parliament House. I'm not sure. He sort of used those words interchangeably, but he's, he's going to something to do with Parliament in Canberra.

• 14:27Stephen Stockwell?

  Yep.

• 14:28Speaker 05

  Um, and complainant J is told to stay in a hotel, uh, and just wait for him. So he does that. But when they sort of arrive at the hotel, uh, he says he's looking around and, um, you know, puts his stuff down. And then Alan Jones comes up to him again and says, you know, I love you, mate. And, um, you know, allegedly then kisses him again. It's again, that chomping action. He says he turns around while, or Alan Jones turns around and he wipes the saliva again.

• 14:56Stephen Stockwell?

  Hmm.

• 14:57Speaker 05

  Um, and then they don't stay overnight. They get back in the car, uh, that night and he drives, uh, back to Sydney.

• 15:04Stephen Stockwell?

  Okay. So just to clarify, those are the allegations from complainant J. And there is what the, the longest sequence of, uh, alleged incidents is a trip that complainant J takes with Alan Jones to Fitzroy Falls, which is this property. It, it sounds like in the New South Wales Highlands somewhere.

• 15:23Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 15:24Stephen Stockwell?

  What happens?

• 15:24Speaker 05

  Yeah. So it's a, it's a big sort of, I guess, like a country property, if you like. It was Alan Jones's, um, sort of second home at the time. Uh, he went there for functions and that sort of thing. So this time complainant J drives him there. He says this is now the second time he's used Alan Jones's car. He, you know, jumps on the highway. Alan Jones says, you know, drive straight and take the exit at Moss Vale. Um, they're driving along. Alan Jones is asleep most of the time, he says. Then complainant J says, sort of 20 minutes away from Fitzroy Falls, he alleges that Alan Jones sort of wakes up and puts

• 16:03Speaker 05

  his hand on complainant J's, the outside of his crotch essentially. Um, and complainant J sort of says he was stunned a bit. Again, in that trip, he says Alan Jones then puts his hand inside of his pants. Uh, and again, we'll get sort of a little bit graphic here. So a warning, but, uh, he says he puts his hand on the inside of his pants, sort of directly on his genitals and squeezes really hard. And he says he remembers the squeezing really hard, um, because it hurt, I guess, or it felt, he said, almost said like the blood vessels were going to pop.

• 16:39Stephen Stockwell?

  Hmm.

• 16:40Speaker 05

  Um, and he kept driving, but he said he's, he veered off the road sort of temporarily and, and corrected the car because he was shocked.

• 16:53Stephen Stockwell?

  Hmm.

• 16:53Speaker 05

  Um, complainant J alleges then that, you know, Alan Jones sort of says something like, do you like it? Or is it comfortable? Uh, and he says he doesn't remember what he said in response, but it was something in the negative, like, I don't know or no.

• 17:07Stephen Stockwell?

  Hmm.

• 17:07Speaker 05

  Um, and then, uh, you know, he, he says to the court, you know, no, I didn't tell him to stop. It was, I mean, he was asked, did you tell him to stop? And he said, no, I didn't. I was driving at 80 Ks on winding roads in a, in a large Mercedes car that belonged to Alan Jones. And he said, I had one of the most powerful people in the country in my car.

• 17:29Stephen Stockwell?

  Hmm.

• 17:30Speaker 05

  Uh, I just had my eyes on the road.

• 17:32Stephen Stockwell?

  Yep. They continue this drive, you know, as you've mentioned, complainant J, as this is unfolding, saying that they were only about, you know, kind of 20 minutes from the Fitzroy Falls property at this point. Um, you know, they continue that drive. They arrive at the property and it's during a tour of the property, uh, with Alan Jones that there's another one of these alleged incidents. I think that was top of a hill near a pigsty?

• 17:55Speaker 05

  Yeah. So he then goes into some of the incidents that happened there. Uh, again, it's another kiss. Uh, he says Alan Jones, you know, approached him and kissed him. And, and one of the occasions at the property in Fitzroy Falls, he said it was the, one of the first times that Alan Jones asked him if it was okay. So he sort of alleges that Alan Jones kissed him and then said something to the effect of, is that all right?

• 18:20Stephen Stockwell?

  Hmm.

• 18:20Speaker 05

  And, uh, complainant J told the court that he said, you know, no, like, you know, this is not something I, I don't do this with men. This is not something I'm comfortable with.

• 18:31Stephen Stockwell?

  Hmm.

• 18:32Speaker 05

  Um, and he said that was one of the few times, or perhaps the only time Alan Jones sort of went, oh, okay, right, righto then. And they sort of kept on with the tour as if nothing happened. And he described a few times when he was talking about these incidents. He described Alan Jones being in a sort of passionate mode when he said, I love you. Uh, or he let, you know, he allegedly kissed him. And then straight afterwards, he described Alan Jones as sort of snapping back into a more business-like mode and sort of continuing on with whatever it was they were doing. So in this case, it was a tour of this Fitzroy Falls property that he'd just arrived at.

• 19:07Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah. Um, we talked earlier, Isabel, about the support that was being offered to complainant J allegedly by Alan Jones over this period. You know, Alan Jones has said, um, according to complainant J, that, you know, this money was provided to him as a gift. You know, you don't need to tell anyone else about this money. Uh, this is to support you. So you don't need to work and focus on your, your, um, your career. Um, what changes with that support throughout these various incidents? Cause these are happening over the course of kind of a, a year or two. Um, what's going on with that support?

• 19:39Speaker 05

  Yeah. So I guess to lay it all out, the, the phone he was given, the very first phone was before any of this happened. It was when they, you know, one of the first times that they met, one of the first interviews that they were doing.

• 19:50Stephen Stockwell?

  Mm hmm.

• 19:50Speaker 05

  He was then allegedly given these weekly $400 payments sometime in 2003. Uh, that started after the first visit, the alleged first kiss that happened in the Macquarie Street apartment. Uh, then they went on the trip to Canberra we talked about. It was after that trip that Alan Jones allegedly said, well, you've been a good boy. I'll give you more money. And the payments went from $400 a week to $500 a week. Um, At some point, we don't know exactly when, because it seems a little bit unclear, but he was given the car and that was to get himself to training. The complainant Jay told the court, he thinks it was in 2004 at some point.

• 20:32Speaker 05

  And it was at that time that Alan Jones, when he was giving the car, said to complainant Jay, allegedly, your problems are now my problems. You know, I'm, I'm giving you this to, to help you essentially. And it was interesting what complainant Jay said in response to that. He said, I was fearful of Alan Jones, but I was also accepting these things from him and I was grateful. The friendship, I would say it was tainted by the things going on. So he said, were it not for, you know, what he describes as the alleged abuse, it would have been a good friendship, he said, you know, Alan Jones had supported him. But he felt that these things that were going on behind closed doors, when there was just

• 21:16Speaker 05

  the two of them, he said, those things, you know, were bothering him, but he felt he couldn't say it to anyone because he'd be embarrassed. And, you know, he admitted it was because he thought the payments and the gifts would stop.

• 21:29Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, there was a moment in court, you know, when, you know, we talked about complainant Jay allegedly going to Alan Jones's apartment and him being, him telling the court that he was kissed by Alan Jones in the office there. And, you know, he talks about coming back downstairs, getting in the car with the person who's driven him there. And he's asked, did you say anything? And he says, no. And he talks about just kind of how he felt in that moment, how, you know, that sort of tainted relationship, how, how challenged he was. He didn't want to admit to his friends and his family what had happened as well. So it did sound for him as though something that, you know, at least in his evidence in court, was something he was wrestling with. The thing I found interesting as well about complainant Jay's evidence, you know, the way that this evidence is aduced, basically, you have the prosecutor sitting there asking,

• 22:14Stephen Stockwell?

  you know, asking these questions. Okay, so what happened when you drove to Fitzroy Falls, for example? You know, you arrive at the property, what happens then? Sort of these questions. And the prosecutor would try to step in through sort of each moment quite separately, so it was clear to the court. But there'd be moments where complainant Jay would kind of stop and he would apologise. He would say, oh, look, sorry, I just need to kind of visualise this. I need to, I need to remember it and tell it in sort of one go. So he would sit there, he'd close his eyes and, you know, it seemed to think back to something and, you know, in this telling, it made for quite a visceral kind of telling of those moments.

• 22:45Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, we were looking at complainant Jay on a camera because, you know, in camera evidence, they give the evidence from another room. It's so that they're not in the same room as the alleged offender, but also so that it's private, you know, only media and the court and the lawyers are allowed there. But yeah, he sort of went, it's like he went into this sort of mode, he shut his eyes and he's like, I need to step through this. Like he was trying to visualise his memory. And, you know, he even talked about specifics as like, I was going into a room, I'd, I'd put a bag down here. And it was like, if he, if he went through all of it in his mind, he felt he could give the best evidence, you know, that he could, yeah.

• 23:23Stephen Stockwell?

  It was quite interesting, I hadn't seen that presented in that way before. The other thing I've noticed in this as well is that, you know, in the trials that we've covered on the case of, we haven't heard from complainants, you know. Often we've done murder trials and the person at the centre of that isn't there to speak on, on what happened. So, you know, we have all of this other evidence presented, but yeah, hearing from, you know, the complainant really kind of foregrounds them. Not that we can kind of give this face to them that they've given themselves in this moment, you know, we can't talk about any of that because we need to be really careful about identifying who these people are.

• 23:56Speaker 05

  Yeah, and that is one of the biggest things in this case. You know, we are hearing more than we are able to report. Yeah, it is, it's tricky because we, we will, there are things that we have to speak with the lawyers about to make sure that we don't, shout out to Jasmine, don't tell the audience because we don't want these people to be identified. That is the law. I mean, it's not just our choice. Every media organisation needs to, you know, abide by that and that's why the court is closed. Anyone from the public can't just sit and listen to this evidence. It needs to be only people that understand, you know, that these are very serious laws about not identifying complainants of alleged sexual incidents and abuse.

• 24:37Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, yeah, the, there was a moment in evidence yesterday that I found fascinating and had marked as an interesting note to include in this conversation today. Someone whose name I would not have expected to come up, someone incredibly influential and powerful, who kind of had a conversation with complainant Jay. And I thought, oh, this really points to kind of who may have known at what time. But by mentioning what unfolded, that person would then be able to identify complainant Jay because they may remember that conversation. So we can't even get into any of that.

• 25:05Speaker 05

  There are also witnesses we won't be able to identify. The prosecution says they've made a list of them because they're worried if, you know, if you say that person's name as a witness, you will then identify the person, the complainant that they're talking about. So yeah, there's all sorts of hurdles that we need to jump through before we come and talk to you.

• 25:24Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, absolutely. Alan Jones was in the room for this. In fact, one of the interesting kind of moments, and I definitely overused the word interesting in this episode, so I apologise for that because I know we get emails about it. One moment that stuck with me, I suppose, was when the video link was turned on, this in camera evidence, the person giving the evidence, complainant Jay, can see the courtroom. And Alan Jones has been sitting not in the dock but in the public gallery. And someone noticed that he would be visible on the screen to complainant Jay, so he was moved to the other side of the courtroom. It meant that you needed to move to the other side of the courtroom because he went and sat in front of where you were sitting. Throughout this evidence, though, throughout the openings, did you notice much of a reaction from Alan Jones?

• 26:00Speaker 05

  I, I know, I looked at him a few times. I tried to take notes and, and was that side, look at him. He was taking notes in a little black notebook. I couldn't read what he was writing, but he was a little, this size book. So he was clearly paying a lot of attention. He would sort of frown a few times and sort of look like he was thinking about what was being said. His lawyers obviously take notes at the same time and they were doing that. But, you know, there was, there were things he clearly wanted to remember about what the evidence was, maybe things he wanted to query with his lawyers later. He was listening intently the whole time. It's day one of a very long trial. It's going to be a huge amount of work for not just him, but everyone listening to, to

• 26:45Speaker 05

  evidence for weeks, months ahead.

• 26:48Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, I think we have a hundred or so days or something that this has set down for, so a bit of a way to go. Deep breath. We are getting plenty of questions already into the case of at abc.net.au and I'd love to dive into some of them. If there's anything you, you would like to know about what's unfolding in this trial, some of the limitations or restrictions or anything like that. Isabel's here and will, maybe not happily, but, you know, will be made to answer these questions. We do have one here from Catherine Isabel. Why is Alan Jones getting a trial without a jury?

• 27:17Speaker 05

  Ah, this is a common question and we have addressed it, but we will, we will address it as many times as everyone asks. It's a jury, it's a judge only trial because the charges are of a level that can be dealt with in a lower court or a magistrate's court, otherwise known as the local court in New South Wales. So the charges at one point were more serious, they were aggravated, or they had the word aggravated in front of them. If, if that was going to be the case, they would be in a higher court. But at one point in the last couple of years since Alan Jones was arrested, the charges were reworked, the defence called them downgraded and some of them were dropped. And that meant that the charges we are dealing with are of a level that can be dealt with

• 28:01Speaker 05

  in the local court. And in a local court, while it is a trial, it's sort of called a summary hearing as well. It's like a less of a trial, I guess, and there are no juries. So it essentially means that there is a judge only who will decide the facts, whether or not he believes the complainants, whether or not he believes the defence, and whether the trial is running according to the law. So it's a pretty big job.

• 28:26Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, yeah, lots for Judge Glenn Walsh to kind of keep an eye on. Gabrielle Beshear has had a number of objections thrown around so far already and some sustained, some let through to the keeper and the prosecution's continued with the line of questioning.

• 28:40Speaker 05

  Yes, she does, she has popped up a few times, objecting to leading questions. Yeah, and the judge has sometimes said, I agree, and sometimes said, no, no, no, keep going.

• 28:50Stephen Stockwell?

  So it's a bit of the, bit of the drum, a bit of the tension from the courtroom that I'm sure we'll see a lot more of over the next little while as well. Another question here, Isabel, from Janet on Nunawal Country in Canberra. She's wondering about the terms sexual touching and indecent assault. What does that actually mean?

• 29:07Speaker 05

  Sexual touching in this case means something slightly more serious than assault with active indecency, which is the technical name for the other charge. So there was a, there's a sexual touching complaint with one complainant, complainant H, who we will get to at some point, and that's touching him on the back and the bottom during an event. There is another sexual touching complaint that is with complainant M, and that is kissing him on the corner of his mouth, pushing his body, including his genitalia, into the complainant's upper inner thigh at his accused residence. So those are the

• 29:45Speaker 05

  two sexual touching charges. The assault with active indecency is, I think the court described it yesterday as well, as you have to prove there is an assault, an act of indecency. So it is like a, it's a sexual connotation to an assault. But all of the rest of the charges are assault with active indecency. So on my reading of it, it is difficult to say, it's like, an assault with active indecency is not a specific thing. It is almost a little bit subjective. The prosecution has decided that lots of different things are assault with active indecency in this case. Kissing, you know, alleged touching, touching over the pants,

• 30:27Speaker 05

  touching under the pants. It clearly covers a wide range of things.

• 30:32Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, yeah, okay. Thank you for explaining that. And it's a wonderful question as well, Janet. So appreciate hearing from, hearing from you. Both email through to the case of at abc.net.au. It is a well monitored inbox. And we have a system for keeping track of everything. So don't worry, you're not going to get lost in there. And also, Isabel, Ted has written in following our last episode, we were talking about the room of paper at the registry office that has, that has filled up all the documents. I noticed yesterday, I was sitting right in line with a table full of documents that the prosecution would come over to and shuffle bits of paper around everything, get something, take it over somewhere else. It seems as though the defence is using the doc as their paper repository, which I imagine will grow throughout this trial. We did wonder if there was a better way. Maybe this could be on the cloud. But Ted has pointed out that in history and history or hoarding

• 31:15Stephen Stockwell?

  with Annabelle Crapp, another great ABC podcast available on ABC Listen, they talk about the way we do things now, and how that may not be in the future accessible. So potentially, one of the reasons that the New South Wales courts are staying on paper is that sometime in the future, okay, something happens to computers, they'll be able to have all of these records available to them.

• 31:35Speaker 05

  That is true. I mean, the paper has worked for as long as, since we invented paper. And someone can Google when that is, I don't know. But yes, it's, it's a system that has not failed us yet. That's very true.

• 31:47Stephen Stockwell?

  I'm sure we'll have an email to the case of at abc.net.au explaining the origins of paper, and the origins of paper in courts. I look forward to, to reading that, one lunch break sometime this week. Where are we off to next in this trial, Isabel?

• 32:01Speaker 05

  So we're going to keep hearing from complainant J. The evidence in chief for, you know, the questions that the prosecution will be asking, then they will be cross examined by the defence, and their claims will be put to the test. Then we will continue to hear from other witnesses. I don't think that we're going to immediately hear from another complainant. There are six, and there's, there's a long way to go. Potentially, they'll be a bit spread out. We haven't been told the exact order, but we do know that, you know, that complainant J's cross examination will be another big thing that's happening this week.

• 32:38Stephen Stockwell?

  Yeah, Gabrielle Bashir in her opening, Alan Jones's defence barrister, yeah, referencing that little bundle of dynamite. So it'll be interesting to see what unfolds in court for the rest of this week. Thank you so much for joining us this episode, Isabel.

• 32:49Speaker 05

  You're welcome.

• 32:50Stephen Stockwell?

  There will be much to discuss in our next episode. You can follow along on ABC Listen, you can just favourite and heart the case of there. It means you'll be at the front of the queue when we publish new episodes. If you're using another podcast app, just leave us a rating or review. Makes it easier for other people to find us. And if you're watching on YouTube, as a lot of people are, you know, if you want to listen in your car, ABC Listen is the way to go about that. You can tell your friends and family as well. Of course, if this episode has raised anything for you, if you need to talk to someone, you can reach out to 1-800 RESPECT. We'll also pop a link in the episode description for a few other services as well, if you need that. We'll be back in your feed on Thursday.

• 33:35Stephen Stockwell?

  The case of Alan Jones is produced by ABC Audio Studios and ABC News. This episode was reported by Isabel Rowe and presented by me, Stephen Stockwell. Our supervising producer is Greg Muller, and our executive producer is Claire Rollinson. This episode was produced on the land of the Gadigal, and we're Untrue People.