SYSK’s Fall True Crime Playlist: Who Committed the 1912 Villisca Ax Murders?

In a small town in Iowa in 1912 eight people were murdered in the grisliest of ways while they slept. Local reputations were ruined when accusations flew, but could a drifting serial killer working across the Midwest have been behind it? See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 1:44Josh Clark?

  Moving on with our next episode in the playlist, this one's on a horrific and truly saddening multiple-axe murder in Iowa in 1912. To some, it looks like a random act of violence committed by someone who is a stranger to the victims, but some odd clues also point to it as the work of possibly someone who knew all of the people who died, which included children. This one is harrowing, interesting, and bizarre.

• 2:14Speaker 03

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know from HowStuffWorks.com.

• 2:24Josh Clark?

  Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant. There's Jerry. Put the three of us together, add a little mystery, a lot of mayhem. You got stuff you should know.

• 2:36Speaker 04

  And one axe.

• 2:38Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 2:41Speaker 04

  How many is this? Three?

• 2:43Josh Clark?

  We got Lizzy Borden.

• 2:44Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 2:46Josh Clark?

  Hinterkai effect? Yep. And then this one. I couldn't think of any more.

• 2:49Speaker 04

  Well, I looked, it's funny because I looked, I was like, I wonder if we could do a spinoff show just on axe murders. And Wikipedia had 30 listed.

• 2:59Josh Clark?

  I'm surprised that's it. There's like 10 mentioned in this, this article alone.

• 3:05Josh Clark?

  Well, we'll see why there are so many axe murders. This, this, um, this whole researching the Veliska axe murder kind of solved a question I've had that I didn't realize I knew, had.

• 3:18Speaker 04

  How to pronounce Veliska?

• 3:20Josh Clark?

  We just settled that by calling the Veliska Town Hall.

• 3:23Speaker 04

  I know. That was a pretty great moment. Right before we recorded, I was like, are you sure it isn't Velissa? And Josh called the town hall and lied.

• 3:33Josh Clark?

  Well, it was kind of a bet that she settled.

• 3:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, you said.

• 3:36Josh Clark?

  We just never put money on it.

• 3:37Speaker 04

  So if you are, whoever answers the phone at the Veliska Town Hall, um, first of all.

• 3:43Josh Clark?

  Thank you.

• 3:44Speaker 04

  Um, you got a call today, so congratulations.

• 3:48Speaker 04

  And second of all, you just spoke to an internet celebrity.

• 3:51Josh Clark?

  I don't know, man. I think Veliska is on the map and it is 100% because of this, this murder.

• 3:59Speaker 04

  Well, if you just type in Veliska, almost all you see is stuff about this axe murder.

• 4:05Josh Clark?

  Well, yeah, the site veliscaiowa.com is entirely dedicated to this axe murder. It's a, it's a pretty big deal.

• 4:13Speaker 04

  Yeah, no, it's just, it doesn't mention it at all, but all the copy is just in the outline of the shape of an axe. They just talk about like their boys' club and

• 4:23Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 4:24Speaker 04

  Stuff that they're doing, their 4th of July parade.

• 4:25Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 4:26Speaker 04

  It's in the shape of an axe.

• 4:27Josh Clark?

  Yeah. The population and elevation is in a drop of blood coming off of the axe.

• 4:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's this population, not as much as it was on June 9th.

• 4:37Josh Clark?

  That's morbid.

• 4:38Speaker 04

  1912.

• 4:39Josh Clark?

  Did you, uh, did you hear about this before?

• 4:41Speaker 04

  Well, I think after Hinterkaiffect, we had some emails from probably local, uh, Iowans?

• 4:48Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 4:49Speaker 04

  Iowans? Iowans?

• 4:51Josh Clark?

  Iowiniannites.

• 4:53Speaker 04

  Uh, saying, hey, you guys should, if you're into the, not into axe murders, but

• 4:58Josh Clark?

  Get a load of this.

• 4:59Speaker 04

  If you're into reporting on grisly crimes, you should check out the one we had in 1912.

• 5:05Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 5:05Speaker 04

  They were right, man. This is, ooh. So before we get into it, I think it goes without saying, listeners, that this is a very horrific grisly crime that we're going to talk about in some detail.

• 5:16Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 5:16Speaker 04

  So, uh, listen at your own discretion.

• 5:18Josh Clark?

  Axe murder is in the title, everybody.

• 5:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, just want to make sure we cover ourselves there.

• 5:23Josh Clark?

  This is one of the most brutal crimes in American history.

• 5:27Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 5:27Josh Clark?

  And a lot of people don't know about it.

• 5:29Speaker 04

  Man.

• 5:30Josh Clark?

  Well, let's, uh, let's stop jabbering and get to criming, okay?

• 5:35Speaker 04

  All right. Where did, where was, where was this from, by the way?

• 5:39Josh Clark?

  Uh, well, one of the articles we researched was from Mike Dash of the Smithsonian Magazine.

• 5:46Speaker 04

  They do great work.

• 5:47Josh Clark?

  Great work. Um, there's another guy named, named Ed Epperali, who we

• 5:52Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 5:52Josh Clark?

  Have to give a shout out to, who has like a whole site called Ask Ed that's dedicated to this murder. Guy's researched it for like 55 years or something like that.

• 6:02Speaker 04

  Did he write one of the two books, probably?

• 6:04Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 6:04Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 6:04Josh Clark?

  He's widely known as the expert on the Velizka axe murder. He knows everything there is to know. And he's got a really fascinating site. If you're even remotely into true crime and this thing floats your boat, go check out Ed's site and you will just spend days poring over it.

• 6:19Speaker 04

  Yeah, one thing I realized in researching this is it was way easier to get away with murder.

• 6:24Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 6:25Speaker 04

  In 1912.

• 6:26Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of agreement that had this been done today.

• 6:32Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 6:33Josh Clark?

  They would have caught the guy very quickly.

• 6:35Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 6:36Josh Clark?

  But yeah, 1912, it was like, you wear gloves and you just confounded their only means of detection, basically, aside from an eyewitness.

• 6:43Speaker 04

  Pretty much.

• 6:44Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So, we keep saying 1912, specifically, like you said, June 9th, 1912.

• 6:50Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 6:51Josh Clark?

  In the little town.

• 6:52Speaker 04

  June 10th.

• 6:52Josh Clark?

  Well, it was one of those things where it crossed over into midnight.

• 6:56Speaker 04

  Right.

• 6:56Josh Clark?

  So, June 9th, 10th.

• 6:59Speaker 04

  Depends on if you're still at partying.

• 7:00Josh Clark?

  Potato, potato, Valiska, Valissa, right?

• 7:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 7:04Josh Clark?

  But at 508 East Second Street in Valiska, Iowa, which is in the county of Montgomery, in the southeast of the state, I believe.

• 7:13Speaker 04

  Not as far from here as I thought.

• 7:14Josh Clark?

  No?

• 7:16Speaker 04

  I just looked on the map and I was like, wait, I was there.

• 7:19Josh Clark?

  I thought Iowa was like, basically in Canada.

• 7:22Speaker 04

  No.

• 7:22Josh Clark?

  Huh. Where is it?

• 7:25Speaker 04

  It's right in the middle of the country.

• 7:27Josh Clark?

  I did not realize that.

• 7:28Speaker 04

  Like, it doesn't look further west than like Dallas.

• 7:32Josh Clark?

  I can believe that, but it was the north that gets you, the northern, the northerward direction.

• 7:37Speaker 04

  That's what gets you?

• 7:38Josh Clark?

  Sure. So, on this night, June 9th, 10th, 1912, in this little house, there were eight people sleeping. There were a mom and a dad.

• 7:51Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 7:51Josh Clark?

  Joe and Sarah Moore.

• 7:53Speaker 04

  Uh huh.

• 7:54Josh Clark?

  And then their four kids, what were their names, Charles?

• 8:00Speaker 04

  I believe Herman, Catherine, Boyd, and Paul.

• 8:03Josh Clark?

  Right. And then downstairs, there were two additional people sleeping in the house, little Lena and Ina Stillinger.

• 8:11Speaker 04

  And they were just having a sleepover, right?

• 8:13Josh Clark?

  Yeah, they were friends of Catherine, the oldest daughter.

• 8:16Speaker 04

  Man.

• 8:16Josh Clark?

  Or the only daughter, I guess, of the Moores. And the whole group had been at church, they were Presbyterians. And they had been at church that day, it was Sunday, for a special Children's Day Mass.

• 8:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 8:32Josh Clark?

  That Mrs. Moore had helped put on, and the kids had all participated in.

• 8:35Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 8:35Josh Clark?

  And at that mass, Catherine had asked her two friends, Lena and Ina, the sisters, to spend the night. And so, they came back home with the Moores from the Children's Day Mass. And by, I think, 10:00 or 10:30, they were all at home, in bed, and the lights were out. And the house was settled and dark.

• 8:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, man, the Stillinger girls, I mean, this is all very sad, but anytime I hear of a fateful turn, like, oh, yeah, we just spent the night there that night.

• 9:04Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 9:05Speaker 04

  And things go bad, it always, I don't know, bothers me more.

• 9:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah, for sure. Twists of fate are terrible, especially when they result in terrible deaths.

• 9:13Speaker 04

  So, uh, very late at night, like you said, after midnight, um, someone crept in to the back of the house, which was not locked.

• 9:22Josh Clark?

  Uh, that's up for debate.

• 9:25Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah?

• 9:25Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 9:26Speaker 04

  All right. Locked or unlocked, they got in without raising suspicion.

• 9:30Josh Clark?

  Right, yeah.

• 9:31Speaker 04

  A two-story house, and this is a small town, this is, um, there were, I don't even think 2,000 people living there then, and I think even less now than there were back then, yeah. One of those places.

• 9:43Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 9:43Speaker 04

  Um, so this person, and I think by all accounts, we can safely say it was a man, uh, creeps in this house, uh, with an axe from the property.

• 9:55Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it was Joe Moore's own axe.

• 9:57Speaker 04

  Yeah, and as we will see, apparently, um, they call these, uh, weapons of convenience, because back in the day, every single house in the US had an axe, like, in the front or backyard.

• 10:09Josh Clark?

  That just explained it. That was the question I didn't realize I'd had. Why were there so many axe murderers at a certain period of time in American history? It's because everybody had an axe.

• 10:20Speaker 04

  Well, yeah, and you would leave it just, you know.

• 10:21Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 10:22Speaker 04

  Uh, like chopped into the, the stump that you use.

• 10:25Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 10:26Speaker 04

  As the chopping block or whatever.

• 10:27Josh Clark?

  It'd be like a weapon of convenience.

• 10:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, these days, you would have to kill people with like a mailbox.

• 10:33Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 10:33Speaker 04

  Just some, something that everyone has.

• 10:35Josh Clark?

  Like a silicone spatula.

• 10:39Speaker 04

  Or a high-speed internet cable.

• 10:41Josh Clark?

  There you go.

• 10:42Speaker 04

  Choke somebody with that.

• 10:43Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 10:44Speaker 04

  Okay, all joking aside, so this, uh, this dude creeps in there, he's got this axe, he gets, and this is very key here, he gets the, the lamp, an oil lamp, from, uh, the dresser inside the house, he takes off the, the chimney, the glass,

• 10:58Josh Clark?

  uh, you know, chimney. Yeah.

• 11:00Speaker 04

  And takes it off, bends the wick in half, uh, so the flame is smaller, lights the lamp, and then turns it down really low, and then commences creeping.

• 11:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah, with an axe in hand in this low light, um, oil lamp in the other.

• 11:16Speaker 04

  Chimneyless lamp, which we'll see is a big clue.

• 11:18Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so he goes up the stairs, apparently, so he passes the Stillinger girls first.

• 11:25Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 11:25Josh Clark?

  Goes up the stairs, he, he passes the children's bedroom. And then opposite, I believe the landing from the children's bedroom are Joe and Sarah's room, or is Joe and Sarah's room, they're sleeping. And he sets the oil lamp down, I believe at the foot of the bed. And he raises the axe over his head and using the flat, the flat end, flat side of the axe, not the, the sharp blade side, but the other side. He delivers a blow to Joe's head. Joe, I believe, was lying on his back, even though Smithsonian article says something different.

• 12:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, raised it so high, he even gouged the ceiling, correct?

• 12:06Josh Clark?

  Yeah, brought it down hard on Joe's head, probably killed him instantly from that one blow.

• 12:12Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 12:13Josh Clark?

  Then apparently he didn't disturb Sarah at all because he did the same thing to her. And both of them were found in a, a position that they would have been sleeping. And there wasn't like, the bedclothes weren't ruffled, there wasn't, their arm wasn't up to defend themselves.

• 12:28Speaker 04

  Right.

• 12:28Josh Clark?

  They, they died in their sleep, it appeared, right?

• 12:31Speaker 04

  Yes, uh, so he kills the parents, um, either immediately or they're, they die probably pretty quickly.

• 12:38Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 12:38Speaker 04

  Uh, leaves the room and goes next door, and this is really just almost too awful to talk about, but he kills all the children in their sleep.

• 12:46Josh Clark?

  One by one, but again, without waking any of them.

• 12:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, uh, by the time he got to the Stillinger girls downstairs, um, it seemed evidence points to the fact that they may have awakened finally.

• 13:01Josh Clark?

  One of them, the older one, Lingna, I believe is the older one.

• 13:05Speaker 04

  And then he, he dispatches with both of them in the same manner.

• 13:09Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 13:10Speaker 04

  Grisly, awful, awful murder.

• 13:12Josh Clark?

  So that's bad enough, right? This guy just went around and murdered eight people, six of them children under the age of 12.

• 13:18Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 13:18Josh Clark?

  Or 12 or under, um, with the blunt end of an axe. That's bad enough, but then. It just gets a million times worse, and this is probably why this axe murder is just part of American history, whether we like it or not. So what the guy does next is, well, he took the axe and he flips it over and he takes the sharp side and he goes around and he starts bashing everybody's head in, one by one. Apparently Joe was later found to have been struck as many as 30 times in the head with the axe.

• 13:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 14:00Josh Clark?

  Just one by one, he went around and completely caved in the head and face of all of his victims, methodically, throughout the house after they were dead, which is a bizarre, horrible thing to do.

• 14:13Speaker 04

  Yeah, so then it gets a little bit strange. He goes around to the rooms and all over the house, really, and does different things in each one. He covers windows with sheets and things, he covers mirrors.

• 14:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah, all the mirrors in the house were covered.

• 14:30Speaker 04

  He covered the faces of, I believe, all the victims, right?

• 14:34Josh Clark?

  Yeah, one way or another, I believe all of their faces were covered.

• 14:38Speaker 04

  With either sheets or pillowcases, or I think in the case of the girls, he pulled their dresses up over their faces.

• 14:43Josh Clark?

  Yeah, we'll talk about that in a second.

• 14:47Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's very... I think in the serial killer or psychopath mode, though, I've heard of stuff like that before, though.

• 14:57Josh Clark?

  Right, like, you get the idea that the murderer doesn't want the victim looking at him.

• 15:04Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:05Josh Clark?

  Which may also explain why he bashed their faces in, who knows? So the guy apparently hangs out for a little while.

• 15:15Speaker 04

  He does other weird things, though, the bacon?

• 15:17Josh Clark?

  He grabbed a two-pound slab of bacon, and I saw elsewhere that there was another slab of bacon found in the house, but there was at least one two-pound slab of bacon that he wrapped in a dish towel and then left on the floor of one of the bedrooms.

• 15:30Speaker 04

  So weird.

• 15:31Josh Clark?

  There was a bowl of bloody water that was later found. He washed himself off. He washed off the axe, although he left it behind.

• 15:41Josh Clark?

  And he apparently hung out for a little while in the house before leaving sometime before 5:00 a.m. So the murders took place around midnight.

• 15:53Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:53Josh Clark?

  And then come 5:00 a.m., the house is dark still. It's 5:00 a.m., so that's not the weirdest thing, although we're talking about Iowa. So plenty of people were up at 5:00, including the neighbor, a woman named Mary Peckham. And she noticed that there wasn't anybody up at the house, which was a little odd. It was a Monday morning now. And by 7:00, she thought it was just downright eerie that there was no sign of life at the house. She went over and let the Moores' chickens out so that they could peck around and feed. She called Joe Moore's store and said, hey, has Joe showed up? And found from the employee that he hadn't.

• 16:36Josh Clark?

  And finally, one of those two gets in touch with a guy named Ross Moore, Joe Moore's brother. And Ross comes over and unlocks the door. The front door is locked. And he goes inside and he comes almost immediately rushing back out, calling for the local marshal to be called.

• 16:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, basically, he gets Hank Horton is the marshal's name. He gets him on the scene. And this, this is where things just kind of go berserk. It's such a small town, such a grisly crime. Any chances of preserving a crime scene? And this is 1912. I don't even know how much a small town like this knows about preserving a crime scene at the time.

• 17:21Speaker 04

  But any hopes were lost within those first few hours after the discovery because, by all accounts, there were 100 or more people that went through that house, from doctors to coroners to investigators to just townspeople.

• 17:37Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 17:38Speaker 04

  That were allowed to just go in there and check things out.

• 17:40Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so the first group that comes with the marshal, Hank Horton, right?

• 17:48Josh Clark?

  Was two, two doctors and a minister.

• 17:51Speaker 04

  J. Clark Cooper.

• 17:53Josh Clark?

  Right, great doctor name.

• 17:54Speaker 04

  Uh, J. Clark Cooper and Edgar Huff and Wesley Ewing, who was the minister of the church.

• 18:01Josh Clark?

  They were the first contingent to make it into the house after Ross Moore came running out.

• 18:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 18:06Josh Clark?

  So they go in and they know enough to not disturb things too much.

• 18:10Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 18:11Josh Clark?

  Another guy gets brought in, um, L.A. Lindquist, he's the coroner.

• 18:15Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 18:16Josh Clark?

  Uh, he tries to take some notes about the crime scene, but the person who, um, got the most information was another doctor. His name was, um.

• 18:26Speaker 04

  F.S. Williams.

• 18:27Josh Clark?

  Yeah, F.S. Williams was the one who examined the body and at a later inquest, um, he had the most details to offer about the bodies, the positions, all that stuff. So when those guys walked in, they were at least well versed enough to know, not disturb things as much as possible, or at least more than the townspeople knew.

• 18:47Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 18:47Josh Clark?

  And F.S. Williams allegedly came out of the house pretty shaken and said, "Don't go in there, boys, or you'll regret it till your last day."

• 18:56Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 18:56Josh Clark?

  And, uh, the townspeople said, "Nuts to you, we're going inside, we want to see some dead bodies."

• 19:01Speaker 04

  And they all regretted it probably till their last day.

• 19:03Josh Clark?

  Yeah, cuz they, they not only messed with the crime scene, they poked around, there was supposedly the town drunk took, um, fragments of Joe Moore's skull as mementos. Like, the, the crime scene was toast, like you said, if, if it could have ever been preserved, it was toast. And even the local druggist showed up with his camera to help preserve the crime scene, cuz he heard that the, the townspeople were, were tramping all over it. Um, and Ross Moore, not understanding what he was doing, threw the guy out, thought he was just being a ghoul trying to get pictures. So the crime scene is utterly and completely lost.

• 19:37Speaker 04

  Yeah, and, uh, one of the things about, uh, Valeska, I almost said Vassila. Is that it was a train town. There were about 30 trains every day that went through there. And so by this time, unless this person was local and maybe hiding out locally, by all accounts, the murderer had probably hopped a train and was out of there by that time.

• 20:00Josh Clark?

  Right. But they didn't realize this until they had already released some bloodhounds. They searched the countryside. There was like a pretty, pretty big search to find whoever did this and they didn't find anybody. So the town was just terrified. Town of 2,000 people, eight, including six children, had just been murdered with an axe in your town. And now the sun's starting to go down and nobody's been caught.

• 20:24Speaker 04

  All right. So let's take a break and we'll come back and talk about suspect number one, right after this.

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• 23:23Josh Clark?

  Yeah, plus, everything at Quince is priced 50% to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen, so you can give luxury-quality pieces without the luxury price tag.

• 23:36Speaker 02

  So give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or go to quince.com, where you can get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK as well. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was stuff you should know. It's the best way to support the show.

• 24:11Speaker 04

  Okay, so suspect number one might be a little surprising when you first hear that he was a state senator. Very, well, well-respected by some as a local businessman. And a very prominent Methodist. Seems the town was pretty sharply divided between Methodist and Presbyterian. You know, those days. And that stuff mattered to those people.

• 24:40Speaker 04

  And his name was Frank Jones. And Methodist immediately said, no, he's, he's gotta be innocent. This is a fine upstanding member of our church.

• 24:51Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 24:52Speaker 04

  Presbyterians are like, no, it's gotta be him. And at first I was like, well, why would it be the state senator? None of this makes sense. There were a couple of big things that made people believe that he could be the guy.

• 25:03Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 25:04Speaker 04

  Joe Moore worked for him for seven years and was one of his best salesmen on his farm equipment team. And apparently he left in 1907 and was not too happy with the work hours, which were 16-hour days, six days a week.

• 25:23Speaker 04

  Who would be?

• 25:23Josh Clark?

  It's like us.

• 25:24Speaker 04

  And then set up a rival business and even took one of the clients, the John Deere Company.

• 25:30Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that was a big one.

• 25:31Speaker 04

  I'm sure.

• 25:31Josh Clark?

  So big that when Sarah Peckham called Joe Moore's employee to tell him the news.

• 25:39Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 25:40Josh Clark?

  Joe Moore's employee called the John Deere people in Omaha to let them know.

• 25:44Speaker 04

  Oh, sure.

• 25:44Josh Clark?

  They were like the third people called after the bodies were discovered.

• 25:48Speaker 04

  So he takes John Deere with him. So this set up an obvious rivalry. And

• 25:54Speaker 04

  Worse than that, apparently, and I don't know if this is super confirmed, but at least the rumor was that Joe Moore had slept with Jones's daughter-in-law.

• 26:05Josh Clark?

  From what I understand, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that's understood is true.

• 26:09Speaker 04

  That's true.

• 26:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 26:11Speaker 04

  So slept with his daughter-in-law, who apparently kind of had several affairs in town and was not very discreet.

• 26:17Josh Clark?

  Yeah, apparently, according to Mike Dash at Smithsonian, she used to set up her meet and greets over the phone.

• 26:28Speaker 04

  I think it's called a liaison.

• 26:29Josh Clark?

  Oh, that's right. Over the phone, and this was at a time when there was a switchboard operator running the phones in the town.

• 26:36Speaker 04

  Yeah, they could listen in on everything.

• 26:37Josh Clark?

  Who just sat there and listened, yeah. And this lady obviously didn't care. So apparently, it was pretty well-known that Joe Moore had had an affair with F.F. Jones's daughter-in-law.

• 26:47Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 26:48Josh Clark?

  Which is huge. You put those two things together.

• 26:50Speaker 04

  They were not friends.

• 26:51Josh Clark?

  And the fact that apparently, they used to cross to the other side of the street to keep from encountering one another.

• 26:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 26:58Josh Clark?

  That's a big deal in that town. You know, it's a small town, right? So suspicion fell onto F.F. Apparently, from what I understand, within a couple hours of the bodies being discovered.

• 27:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, and suspicion, not that he may have done it, that Jones was actually the killer, but maybe Jones, because he was 57 years old and probably had some pretty good money, clearly.

• 27:20Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah, he was wealthy. He was building a bank, overseeing his new bank being built when he got the news of the bodies were discovered.

• 27:27Speaker 04

  When you're building a bank, you're rolling in it.

• 27:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 27:29Speaker 04

  So everyone thought that he probably hired somebody out to kill him. And there was a very, the Burns Detective Agency, there was a detective named James Wilkerson, who said, you know what? I think you're right. I think he hired someone. I think that man's name was William Mansfield.

• 27:44Josh Clark?

  William Blacky Mansfield. He was already, um, no, he wasn't already. He would later be, I believe convicted of an axe murder himself.

• 27:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, which is probably one of the chief reasons he was suspect.

• 27:58Josh Clark?

  Well, no, that, that came a couple of years after, I believe. That was like 1914 or 15 that he murdered his wife, her parents and their child, their child, his child with an axe, right?

• 28:10Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 28:11Josh Clark?

  This guy was a bad dude, but there was one problem with James Wilkerson's theory. Blacky Mansfield had, um, an airtight alibi. He was in Illinois hundreds of miles away when the crimes occurred. Not only did the foreman vouch for him, but the payroll records showed very clearly that he had not been in Velazca that day, um, and couldn't have done it.

• 28:35Speaker 04

  Yeah. So he was exonerated, but, um, a lot of townspeople still thought that, that, you know, how it was back then and still is today to a certain degree.

• 28:44Josh Clark?

  Sure. Especially in a small town.

• 28:46Speaker 04

  Yeah. People were convinced that he was the guy and a lot of people probably went to their graves thinking that.

• 28:50Josh Clark?

  So even though Chuck, that Mansfield was exonerated and, and like you said, a lot of people thought that, um, Jones, FF Jones, apparently went by FF.

• 28:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 28:59Josh Clark?

  Um, did have something to do with it. The Stillinger girls' father and Ross Moore, Joe Moore's brother, both thought FF Jones was behind this.

• 29:08Speaker 04

  Right.

• 29:09Josh Clark?

  Um, and, and Wilkinson made it like his personal mission to take Jones down and apparently ruined his, his political career, cost him reelection to the state senate.

• 29:20Speaker 04

  I would think that probably happened anyway, just from suspicion, but.

• 29:24Josh Clark?

  Maybe, but I think like there is something between townspeople suspecting you and a detective like bringing evidence against you and getting a grand jury.

• 29:34Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 29:34Josh Clark?

  To, to indict you.

• 29:35Speaker 04

  It was like the good old days when you could be suspected of an axe murder and still win a senate seat.

• 29:39Josh Clark?

  Right, exactly. Um, the, uh, the, but Jones, he didn't win reelection.

• 29:45Speaker 04

  No.

• 29:46Josh Clark?

  And, uh, yeah, apparently to their dying day, some people assumed that it was him behind it.

• 29:53Speaker 04

  Another candidate, candidate, suspect.

• 29:56Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 29:58Speaker 04

  In Canada, it's not the right word. Lynn George Jaclyn Kelly. The man with four names.

• 30:06Josh Clark?

  He went by George Kelly, though.

• 30:07Speaker 04

  He was an Englishman.

• 30:10Speaker 04

  Which was probably a little weird at the time.

• 30:12Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 30:13Speaker 04

  If you live in there.

• 30:13Josh Clark?

  No one had ever seen an Englishman in Iowa.

• 30:15Speaker 04

  Maybe. He was a preacher, though, and it says in this Smithsonian article, "A known sexual deviant." He definitely had some mental health problems, but

• 30:27Speaker 04

  there were some things in his case where it sort of were suspicious and others that made him not a great suspect. One of which, he was a little guy. He was 5' to 119 pounds. So, maybe not the best suspect for...

• 30:42Josh Clark?

  Swinging an axe like that?

• 30:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 30:44Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 30:45Speaker 04

  Although, you know, he could have been strong as an ox. You never know.

• 30:47Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 30:49Speaker 04

  Thumbs of little guys, you know.

• 30:51Josh Clark?

  Yeah, but they're usually good with like jujitsu sleeper holds rather than axe swinging, you know? They just scramble up on top and before you know it, their legs are around your neck and you're losing consciousness.

• 31:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, their thumbs are in your eyeballs.

• 31:02Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 31:03Speaker 04

  That kind of thing.

• 31:03Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 31:04Speaker 04

  Yeah, so, fair enough. But he was left-handed and the coroner linguist did say that, you know, from their analysis, as rudimentary as that might be in 1912, it could probably at least determine that it was a left-handed assailant.

• 31:18Josh Clark?

  From the blood spatter, I believe.

• 31:19Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 31:20Josh Clark?

  On the walls.

• 31:22Speaker 04

  So, good for them for being that advanced.

• 31:25Josh Clark?

  So, there were some other things that implicated George Kelly. One, he was in Villisca. He was a traveling preacher. He and his wife toured around. And they were in Villisca the day of the murder.

• 31:39Josh Clark?

  They were actually at the children's service.

• 31:41Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 31:42Josh Clark?

  That the Moores and the Stillinger girls were at. Again, this guy was a sex maniac is what he was known as.

• 31:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, I kind of wonder about that.

• 31:50Josh Clark?

  And...

• 31:51Speaker 04

  Does that mean he liked to have sex?

• 31:52Josh Clark?

  I guess. There were, he placed an ad, and this is in the 1910s. He placed an ad in the Omaha World-Herald looking for a stenographer who would be willing to pose as a model. And when one woman named Jessamine Hodgson replied to his ad, he sent her a letter, and apparently it was quite lewd. So much so that the court that heard the case against him said that it was so obscene, lewd, lascivious, and filthy as to be offensive to this honorable court and improper to be spread upon the record thereof.

• 32:32Speaker 04

  I really want to know what was in that letter.

• 32:34Josh Clark?

  Well, one of the things was that the lady would be required to type in the nude.

• 32:38Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 32:39Josh Clark?

  This is the 1910s.

• 32:40Speaker 04

  No, that's what I'm saying. I wonder how it would be judged by today's standard.

• 32:44Josh Clark?

  Oh, although, I mean, by today's standard, if you sent a potential job candidate a letter that said

• 32:50Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 32:51Josh Clark?

  going to require you to be typing in the nude.

• 32:54Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 32:55Josh Clark?

  You would get in some trouble for that.

• 32:56Speaker 04

  Sure. I just don't know that you would say it was obscene, lewd, and lascivious.

• 33:00Josh Clark?

  No, I'm with you.

• 33:01Speaker 04

  They'd say that's kink.

• 33:02Josh Clark?

  But I think the, so, okay, George Kelly was a kinky, traveling preacher who had his wife in tow.

• 33:08Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 33:09Josh Clark?

  And he was in Velazca at the time of the murders.

• 33:13Speaker 04

  And he left that next morning on a train.

• 33:15Josh Clark?

  Right. But there was supposedly a witness that said that he had a very incriminating statement when he got off of that train that very morning.

• 33:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, he apparently referenced the murders, but he had left town before they found out about the murders.

• 33:31Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 33:32Speaker 04

  But then later on, those people recanted those statements, correct?

• 33:35Josh Clark?

  Right. So when Frank Jones, F.F. Jones, had a grand jury brought to hear evidence against him, he was exonerated. Same thing, not with George Kelly, actually. I should say, he was actually the only person to ever go to trial for these murders. And he was tried twice. The first time, the jury found 11 to 1 in his favor.

• 34:00Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 34:01Josh Clark?

  The second jury acquitted him entirely. The evidence against him was just too flimsy, and it probably wasn't him.

• 34:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, the idea was, they were like, he was at that church service, he's a pervert, he saw these kids in the service, he went back and peeked into their house and camped out in their barn.

• 34:21Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 34:22Speaker 04

  And the evidence there was there were some hay bales in the barn that had depressions as if someone had been laying on them. And if you'd laid down in one of them, there was a peephole right there in the barn where you could see the house. This is all pretty flimsy.

• 34:35Josh Clark?

  There was also, though, I think one of the reasons why the case was brought against him, he was specifically tried for the murder of Lena Stillinger. And that's

• 34:46Josh Clark?

  That's noteworthy because although they don't say in the official court record directly

• 34:51Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 34:52Josh Clark?

  That she may have been sexually assaulted or that some sort of sex crime had been committed against her.

• 34:57Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 34:58Josh Clark?

  Supposedly, she had been found with her night clothes hiked up over her waist, like above her waist.

• 35:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 35:05Josh Clark?

  Her undergarments had been taken off and stuffed under the bed.

• 35:08Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 35:09Josh Clark?

  And then her, her legs had been arranged so that her genitalia was prominent, right? That was done after she had been murdered. And I think that's one of the reasons why they suspected George Kelly. Because to add a sexual dimension to this brutal murder, they said, well, this guy's just, just enough of a sex maniac for that to be possible.

• 35:33Speaker 04

  Yeah. Oh, I forgot about this fact, though. He actually returned a week later and posed as a Scotland Yard detective so he could get a tour of the house.

• 35:41Josh Clark?

  That is so George Kelly.

• 35:43Speaker 04

  Well, it's definitely one of those things that makes you go, wait a minute. Returned to the scene of the crime. You lied to get in there and look at the house.

• 35:51Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 35:52Speaker 04

  But apparently everyone wanted to go look at the house.

• 35:54Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 35:55Speaker 04

  So it's.

• 35:55Josh Clark?

  And plus, what's posing? You know, we've seen so many like cartoony movies that like somebody gets like the, the deer stalker hat and a pipe and says they're from Scotland Yard. Posing could be like somebody saying like, oh, you must be from Scotland Yard and like grunting in the affirmative.

• 36:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's true.

• 36:12Josh Clark?

  I guess that technically constitutes posing in the real world.

• 36:15Speaker 04

  Apparently signed a confession.

• 36:17Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah, that was a big one, too.

• 36:18Speaker 04

  Yeah. But, I mean, the confession literally said, I killed the children upstairs first and the children downstairs last. I knew God wanted me to do it this way. Slay utterly came to mind. And I picked up the axe, went into the house and killed them. But, you know, he took it back later. It's like, yeah, all that very specific stuff I said about killing this family, it didn't really do it.

• 36:41Josh Clark?

  So he was exonerated. So, so far, the little town of Villisca has looked around and said, we couldn't find any tramps. So who's the person that hated Joe Moore the most? F F Jones. Well, it wasn't him. Who's the weirdest pervert we can find who is in town at the time?

• 36:58Speaker 04

  Yeah, that Englishman.

• 36:59Josh Clark?

  George Kelly. It wasn't him. So. They didn't know. A lot of people went to their graves dying, not knowing what happened. And we still don't know what happened, but with the hindsight of, I guess, modern forensic techniques, modern profiling, and the work of dedicated historians like Ed Upperaly, we have something of a clearer picture emerging, and that picture seems to be centering on the serial killer.

• 37:27Speaker 04

  We'll talk about that theory more right after this.

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• 38:03Josh Clark?

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• 38:47Josh Clark?

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• 39:20Josh Clark?

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• 39:32Speaker 04

  So give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or go to quince.com, where you can get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK as well. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was stuff you should know. It's the best way to support the show.

• 40:06Speaker 04

  All right, so we've ruled out these local suspects. Local-ish, I guess, in Kelly's case.

• 40:16Speaker 04

  And now, the modern take on this is that this was a serial killer, because in 1911 and 1912, there were a lot of axe murders in the Midwest, at least 10, everywhere from Colorado Springs to Ellsworth, Kansas.

• 40:39Speaker 04

  And many of them had similar traits.

• 40:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah, like some very startlingly similar traits, right?

• 40:49Speaker 04

  But not all of them. And some of them are like, and we'll go through these, but some are like, well, in five of them, these same things happen, and two of them, these same things happen. So it makes me wonder if it wasn't, if they're kind of grouping too many of these together?

• 41:04Josh Clark?

  This does. Ed Epperaly actually whittles it down to five, including Villisca.

• 41:10Speaker 04

  Oh, I thought it was three. Was it five?

• 41:11Josh Clark?

  Five. So there's three that happened in 1911. There was one that happened in Colorado Springs, Colorado, that supposedly kicked the whole thing off.

• 41:20Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 41:20Josh Clark?

  Followed by Monmouth in Illinois.

• 41:24Josh Clark?

  I forgot the S is silent.

• 41:25Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 41:26Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And then, uh, Ellsworth, Kansas. Then there was one in, uh, Paola, Kansas. And then the last one in Villisca. And those five crimes have some similarities that make them really, really suspicious. That the idea of just, uh, like five different people, or even a couple of different people, um, separately committing these crimes. And as Ed Eppersley, uh, puts it, kind of dismissively, the idea that these were local vendettas, or, you know, um, that, that people were.

• 42:00Speaker 04

  Like an argument over farming or something?

• 42:02Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 42:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 42:03Josh Clark?

  That's not what these, these crimes reflect at all. They reflect the work of a, like, just a straight up nut job psychopath.

• 42:12Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 42:12Josh Clark?

  Who, um, are, are few and far between. So that the fact that these things occurred between October of 1911 and June of 1912, um, suggests strongly that, that there was one person doing them.

• 42:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, there was that final one in Columbia, Missouri in December, 1912. Um, and one of the theories is that a man named Henry Lee Moore, uh, killed, uh, Georgia Moore in Columbia, Missouri, who was his mother, Mary Wilson. Um, so.

• 42:48Speaker 04

  Is that the guy?

• 42:49Josh Clark?

  No.

• 42:50Speaker 04

  It would be weird to commit a series of murders and then finish up with your own family.

• 42:55Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 42:56Speaker 04

  Usually it's the other way around.

• 42:57Josh Clark?

  Yeah, right. So like, if you're gonna go off on a killing spree, you usually start, you practice on your family first.

• 43:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, like a recital.

• 43:04Josh Clark?

  Get a feel for it, right? Um, he, this guy, Henry Lee Moore, aside from having three names, is not a good suspect for the serial killer, right? Um, he apparently wanted the deeds to his family house. And, um, like you said, it's very rare for a serial killer to go back.

• 43:22Speaker 04

  You know the deal with the three names? They don't all have three names.

• 43:25Josh Clark?

  No, I know, but so many of them do.

• 43:27Speaker 04

  Well, no, the news reports it that way to distinguish them from every other Henry Moore in the world.

• 43:33Josh Clark?

  Gotcha.

• 43:34Speaker 04

  So like, everyone's always like, serial killers have three names. No, they're just reported that way.

• 43:38Josh Clark?

  That's awesome.

• 43:39Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 43:39Josh Clark?

  I love it when things are just explained, yeah. Wrapped up in a nice little bow. Thanks for that.

• 43:46Speaker 04

  Like Lee Harvey Oswald, he, I think went by Lee Oswald.

• 43:50Josh Clark?

  I think you're right.

• 43:51Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 43:52Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 43:54Speaker 04

  So if anyone ever writes a story about Charles Wayne Bryant, we're in trouble.

• 44:00Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah. I'm in trouble.

• 44:02Speaker 04

  No, I wouldn't kill you.

• 44:04Josh Clark?

  Uh, thanks, man. I wouldn't kill you either.

• 44:07Speaker 04

  Hey, you want to shake on it? Jerry witness?

• 44:11Josh Clark?

  So the Henry Lee Moore thing, he's almost like a red herring. Like, a lot of people say, well, he was the one, he was the serial killer behind it. Cause the serial, the serial murders started, um, right after he got out of prison in Kansas.

• 44:25Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 44:25Josh Clark?

  And then they ended right after he got caught in Columbia, Missouri with his family.

• 44:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, kinda makes sense.

• 44:31Josh Clark?

  It does, but that's where the whole thing really begins and ends. So a lot of people say, well, it wasn't Henry Lee Moore, so it wasn't a serial killing.

• 44:38Speaker 04

  Well, plus, uh, sorry, but his, his killing hi- his own family was about, uh, obtaining the deeds to his family house.

• 44:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's what I was saying.

• 44:47Speaker 04

  Oh, so that was greed motivated?

• 44:48Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 44:49Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 44:49Josh Clark?

  Yeah, not, not a serial psychopathic sex-based serial killing spree, right? This guy was just a jerk. Um, so since Henry Lee Moore is associated with the serial murder theory, once somebody then finds out that it wasn't Henry Lee Moore, they stop thinking it was a serial murderer.

• 45:06Speaker 04

  Right.

• 45:06Josh Clark?

  And that probably says, not so fast. Wait, wait, wait. Just because Henry Lee Moore's out of the equation doesn't mean there's not a serial killer involved.

• 45:14Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 45:15Josh Clark?

  He's like, consider the similarities between these five cases. And they're, they're, they're pretty thick, right? In a couple of the cases, um, there were oil lamps found where chimney, the chimneys were removed and set aside.

• 45:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 45:31Josh Clark?

  And the wicks were bent in half to keep the light low.

• 45:34Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 45:34Josh Clark?

  That's a big one. Uh, axes were used in four of the five, but he says that's just probably a matter of convenience. A pipe, I think, was used in the Monmouth, Illinois case, which is, again, an implement of convenience too, right?

• 45:49Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 45:49Josh Clark?

  Don't have an axe handy? Go for a lead pipe, right?

• 45:52Speaker 04

  You probably didn't bring that with you.

• 45:53Josh Clark?

  Right. Um, there were, tell them about the, tell them about the mirrors, Chuck.

• 45:59Speaker 04

  Well, I mean, at, at several of these places, the mirrors were covered up. I mean, that's a big one.

• 46:03Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 46:04Speaker 04

  Uh, mirrors and windows. And in one of the places, the telephone was covered and... The thought there is, is that, like you said earlier, like, they don't want the victims to be watching them even after death.

• 46:17Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 46:17Speaker 04

  Or to be seen, and the mirrors and windows being covered, but the phone, apparently, it was one of those old box phones on the wall that you, that you crank, and it has the two, it sort of looks like a face.

• 46:29Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 46:30Speaker 04

  When you look at it, it has, like, it looks like two eyes and a nose, and so the thought was that that even looks like a face to the deranged serial killer, so they'll cover that up as well.

• 46:39Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 46:40Speaker 04

  Because, nothing else makes much sense, you know, you're not gonna, in 1912, you're not getting phone calls after midnight, you probably, probably don't get more than a couple of phone calls a week in 1912.

• 46:52Josh Clark?

  Right, most people don't have phones.

• 46:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, and throwing a sheet over it, it wouldn't, like, disable it anyway.

• 46:57Josh Clark?

  No, um, there was a, another female victim, a young female victim in Monmouth, who was found basically the same way that Lena Stilinger was found.

• 47:10Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 47:10Josh Clark?

  Um, with her, her nightgown thrown up over her waist, and her, um, undergarments removed, um, and, apparently, there was a similarity in, I believe, Monmouth and Villisca, where, and one other town, too, where the killer was, went on to try to kill again.

• 47:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, this was the most interesting to me.

• 47:32Josh Clark?

  Either successfully did kill again, there was one where he went to an adjacent house, whose backyard connected the, the first murder house, and then went in and killed the, another family right afterward.

• 47:41Speaker 04

  That was Colorado Springs.

• 47:42Josh Clark?

  And then in Villisca, there, the telephone operator, who was, like, sleeping in the telephone switchboard headquarters.

• 47:50Speaker 04

  Cause no calls were coming through.

• 47:51Josh Clark?

  She reported the, um, the doorknob being tried about two hours after the Moore house, um, members were murdered.

• 48:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, like, heard footsteps, come up to the door, try to open it, and then heard the footsteps leave.

• 48:05Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 48:06Speaker 04

  That's a little shaky, but, this, the last one was the one that kinda sent the chill up my spine, it was the one in Kansas, specifically, you said Paola, I bet you there are people there laughing, cause it's probably pronounced Paola, or something.

• 48:21Josh Clark?

  Probably.

• 48:22Speaker 04

  Uh, but who knows, P A O L A Kansas, there was a second family, um, Mrs. Uh, Longmire, the Longmire family.

• 48:30Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 48:31Speaker 04

  Um, they were awakened, she and her daughter at about midnight, uh, to the sound of broken glass, uh, went downstairs and saw a dude in their dining room who had just broken a oil lamp chimney.

• 48:43Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 48:43Speaker 04

  And then got the heck out of there through a window.

• 48:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 48:46Speaker 04

  They actually saw a guy.

• 48:47Josh Clark?

  So, think about that Chuck, think about that. They saw, they woke up and saw the man who was about to probably bludgeon them all to death with an axe.

• 48:58Speaker 04

  Um, this probably.

• 48:59Josh Clark?

  Leaving their house, yeah.

• 49:01Speaker 04

  And these were all train towns.

• 49:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 49:03Speaker 04

  So, they were all linked by train depots, so by all accounts, there was a train-going serial killer, uh, for a couple of years in the Midwest.

• 49:13Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 49:13Speaker 04

  Killing people, hopping trains.

• 49:15Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 49:15Speaker 04

  Never, ever caught.

• 49:16Josh Clark?

  Isn't that nuts?

• 49:17Speaker 04

  It is nuts.

• 49:18Josh Clark?

  And the, the Villisca Axe murders were probably one of his. Crazy. But we'll never know.

• 49:25Speaker 04

  No.

• 49:26Josh Clark?

  You know, when you say stuff like that, or when you see stuff like that in print too, like, we'll never know who it was. It makes you wonder, like, what kind of technology are we gonna have in the future? Like, uh, will we never know, or are we gonna come up with something one day where we're like, oh, it was this guy?

• 49:43Speaker 04

  Yeah, like, now we know.

• 49:44Josh Clark?

  You know? Um, who, who knows? The future knows, that's who knows.

• 49:50Speaker 04

  We should do one on Ed Gein.

• 49:52Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 49:53Speaker 04

  That's like, kinda one of the big, big ones we haven't covered.

• 49:56Josh Clark?

  Okay. I got a couple more too.

• 49:58Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah?

• 49:59Josh Clark?

  I don't wanna, I don't wanna even tease them yet.

• 50:01Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 50:01Josh Clark?

  Okay? True crime.

• 50:04Speaker 04

  Maybe we'll do one in, uh, like, this October.

• 50:07Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 50:08Speaker 04

  We used to do multiple, kind of creepy, episodes.

• 50:10Josh Clark?

  I think we did last time too, last October, yeah.

• 50:14Speaker 04

  All right, we'll look forward to another, uh...

• 50:17Speaker 04

  Ghoulish serial killer type thing.

• 50:20Josh Clark?

  Okay. Yeah, we did hint or kayfek, I think.

• 50:22Speaker 04

  Oh, was that last October?

• 50:23Josh Clark?

  I think so, yeah.

• 50:24Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 50:25Josh Clark?

  If you want to know more about the Velizca axe murders, well, again, strongly recommend you go look up Ed Epperali. You can read the Smithsonian article, The Axe Murderer Who Got Away, which is great. And there were plenty of other articles that we relied on that we love. Thank you for those.

• 50:44Josh Clark?

  In the meantime, you can also hang out with us on Host of Works dot com and our famous search bar. And since I said "search bar," got it in there. It's time for listener mail.

• 50:54Speaker 04

  Hey, guys. Love the show. And now I have even more reason to promote your podcast to everyone I know. I work in a small family business with my cousin, and this previous January, started experiencing severe gastrointestinal issues.

• 51:05Josh Clark?

  Oh, I love this email.

• 51:07Speaker 04

  Yeah, remember this one? It was like from yesterday.

• 51:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 51:11Speaker 04

  I won't go into detail, but for months afterward, he saw specialist after specialist, hoping to find out the root, tested for Crohn's, ulcers, IBS, everything under the sun, none of which had a positive result or diagnosis. Couldn't focus on anything, no energy, took a ton of time away from work. He felt totally lost and even sought the help of a psychologist because of his diminished work ethic and deteriorating quality of life. You see where this is going, people? Think listeners might know.

• 51:38Josh Clark?

  And he was southern.

• 51:40Speaker 04

  One day last month, he was southern, actually. He came in after a doctor's appointment and said he developed an iron deficient anemia, to add to his list of issues. At first, it sounded disconnected until, and I kid you, this is in all caps, "I kid you not, Josh and Chuck, I was listening to your hookworm episode that day." Man, when he got to the part about the aggressive iron deficient anemia, I lost my mind. I looked up hookworm infection symptoms, immediately brought it to my cousin, and he had every last symptom. His doctor prescribed a medication and he is currently being dewormed. From the first day he started his treatment, he had a noticeable increase in both mood and

• 52:22Speaker 04

  energy. I don't know how these symptoms could have slipped by a half dozen GPs and specialists, but I truly can't thank you both enough for your podcasts and this wide range of topics. That is James in St. Pete, Florida.

• 52:33Josh Clark?

  That is so awesome, man.

• 52:34Speaker 04

  Dude had hookworm.

• 52:35Josh Clark?

  Can you believe it?

• 52:36Speaker 04

  Man.

• 52:37Josh Clark?

  Man. Thank you, James, and...

• 52:40Speaker 04

  Good luck to you, cousin.

• 52:41Josh Clark?

  Way to go for being so smart to connect the dots, too.

• 52:44Speaker 04

  I think your cousin owes you a pizza or a beer or whatever you like.

• 52:48Josh Clark?

  Maybe both.

• 52:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 52:50Josh Clark?

  Yeah. A trip to Chuck E. Cheese drunk. If you want to get in touch with us to tell us an amazing story like James did, you can tweet to us. I'm at Josh Umlark and SYSK Podcast. Chuck's at Charles W. Chuck Bryant and Stuff You Should Know on Facebook. And you can send us all an email, including Jerry, at [email protected]. And as always, join us at our home on the web, stuffyoushouldknow.com.

• 53:21Speaker 00

  For more on this and thousands of other topics, visit howstuffworks.com.

• 53:35Josh Clark?

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• 54:14Speaker 05

  It may be time to try something else. Extensor is an ultra-long-acting prescription-maintenance treatment for severe asthma, eosinophilic type, ages 12 and older. It isn't for sudden breathing problems. Extensor is the first and only add-on treatment that can help deliver protection from asthma attacks with two doses a year. Just one dose every six months. That's a lot of time for everything in between. Serious allergic reactions can occur. Get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. Don't change or stop medicines, including steroids, unless told by your doctor. Report if you have a parasitic infection. Common colds, sinus infection, inflammation in the nose, flu or flu-like symptoms, joint pain or sore throat may occur.

• 54:57Speaker 05

  Carry on with fewer attacks and ask your doctor about Extensor. Learn more at extensor.com or call 1-833-393-3678.

• 55:08Speaker 06

  What's that?

• 55:09Speaker 02

  My fresh detector.

• 55:10Speaker 06

  Uh, your what?

• 55:11Speaker 02

  There it is.

• 55:12Speaker 06

  What is it detecting?

• 55:14Speaker 02

  Fresh produce, fresh meat.

• 55:17Speaker 06

  Okay, what happens if it detects something really fresh?

• 55:22Speaker 02

  Apparently, we celebrate.

• 55:24Speaker 07

  At Food Lion, you can count on fresh food at fresher prices when your fresh detector is going off. Head to your local Food Lion or shop at foodlion.com. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.