SYSK’s Fall True Crime Playlist: The Tylenol Murders, Part I

On one terrible day in Chicago in 1982, seven people died suddenly and mysteriously. In just a matter of hours, it becomes clear, someone has poisoned bottles of Extra-Strength Tylenol, one of the most trusted and widely-used products in America. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 0:45Josh Clark?

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• 1:42Josh Clark?

  Now up is one of my favorite of our true crime episodes on the poisoning deaths of at least seven people in the Chicago area back in 1982. What makes this case so unsettling is that there doesn't seem to be any connection whatsoever between the victims and the killer. The murderer just seems to have been a mad poisoner. Like most good true crime mysteries, this one is also unsolved. Enjoy.

• 2:10Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio's How Stuff Works.

• 2:20Josh Clark?

  Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, there's Chuck, there's Josh. Not me twice.

• 2:26Speaker 03

  There's Chuck.

• 2:27Josh Clark?

  Guest producer Josh is back in the house. Yeah, and there's little Chuck in your pocket.

• 2:33Speaker 03

  Remember Little Elvis?

• 2:34Josh Clark?

  I was just about to say that. You got that right, Tony.

• 2:37Speaker 03

  Oh, man. What a great sketch.

• 2:39Josh Clark?

  It really was. That was Nicolas Cage, wasn't it?

• 2:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, man. Did you ever see Mandy?

• 2:44Josh Clark?

  Yes, it was terrible. I don't care what anybody else says.

• 2:46Speaker 03

  Did you hate it?

• 2:47Josh Clark?

  It was terrible. Terrible movie.

• 2:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, Noel and I talked about it on Movie Crush. He's seen it like four times. Thinks it's the best thing ever.

• 2:55Josh Clark?

  Come on, Noel.

• 2:56Speaker 03

  And he was like, people either love it or hate it. And I was like, actually, I was kind of in the middle.

• 2:59Josh Clark?

  Were you really?

• 3:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, I told him, young Chuck, like 22-year-old college Chuck

• 3:04Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 3:04Speaker 03

  Would have probably liked it a lot more.

• 3:06Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 3:07Speaker 03

  But today Chuck was kind of like, eh, I get it. Like, sure.

• 3:11Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 3:11Speaker 03

  Parts of it were fine.

• 3:12Josh Clark?

  Sure. To me, spending an hour doing character development, but not successfully making you care about the characters

• 3:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, good point.

• 3:25Josh Clark?

  Just really irked me.

• 3:26Speaker 03

  Wow, you had structural issues.

• 3:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah. That was really the big thing. I also thought Linus Roach was very, very odd for casting, but...

• 3:33Speaker 03

  Who's that? Which one was he?

• 3:34Josh Clark?

  The main bad guy, that cult leader.

• 3:36Speaker 03

  That was weird.

• 3:37Josh Clark?

  Very weird.

• 3:38Speaker 03

  I don't even know him, but I just...

• 3:39Josh Clark?

  He's from Law and Order and like some other stuff. You gotta get into Law and Order to see how much you're missing out on.

• 3:46Speaker 03

  That's becoming a bit.

• 3:47Josh Clark?

  So, did we start recording yet?

• 3:50Speaker 03

  I think so.

• 3:51Josh Clark?

  Oh, I already welcomed everybody to the podcast.

• 3:53Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 3:53Josh Clark?

  So Chuck, we are... This is some true crime stuff we're getting into here.

• 3:59Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 4:00Josh Clark?

  But I feel like we need to set the tone, right? Because this isn't... This didn't happen just yesterday. This happened way back in 1982 in Chicago, Illinois. And I remember this, even though I was like six at the time.

• 4:12Speaker 03

  It was one of my favorite years.

• 4:14Josh Clark?

  Because of this?

• 4:15Speaker 03

  No.

• 4:16Josh Clark?

  No. The opposite of that, right?

• 4:18Speaker 03

  Mainly because of movies.

• 4:19Josh Clark?

  What was so great about 1982?

• 4:22Speaker 03

  Look it up, man.

• 4:23Josh Clark?

  Well, I was kind of hoping you had.

• 4:24Speaker 03

  E.T., Blade Runner.

• 4:25Josh Clark?

  Oh, really?

• 4:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:27Josh Clark?

  Okay, yeah, that was a good year.

• 4:28Speaker 03

  Some of the best movies.

• 4:28Josh Clark?

  Do you know I didn't see Blade Runner until I was 40?

• 4:34Speaker 03

  That's not true.

• 4:35Josh Clark?

  Yes, it is.

• 4:36Speaker 03

  Oh, really?

• 4:36Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 4:37Speaker 03

  The original?

• 4:37Josh Clark?

  The original Blade Runner.

• 4:39Speaker 03

  Huh. Did you like it?

• 4:40Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it was good. I liked the second one, too.

• 4:42Speaker 03

  You like, but they spent way too much time on character development? Yeah, and I just did a little poking around about 1982 and it was um it was a good year for an 11 year old, but it was an uneasy time in America.

• 4:57Josh Clark?

  Why?

• 4:57Speaker 03

  Uh, well, for a bunch of awful things happened that year. Uh, and I don't know if it was any more or less than other years, but uh, Air Flight 90 crashed into the into the Potomac River. Remember that?

• 5:09Josh Clark?

  No.

• 5:09Speaker 03

  In Washington DC, the plane crash in the river.

• 5:12Josh Clark?

  Didn't it hit a bridge?

• 5:14Speaker 03

  Maybe, but uh, there was there was like a daring icy river rescue.

• 5:18Josh Clark?

  Oh, really?

• 5:19Speaker 03

  Yeah. 78 people died, though. That same day, a metro train in DC derailed, killed three people.

• 5:26Josh Clark?

  Geez.

• 5:26Speaker 03

  Uh, February was when Wayne Williams was convicted.

• 5:30Josh Clark?

  Gotcha.

• 5:30Speaker 03

  And that was just the end of a lot of unease, you know, for years.

• 5:34Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 5:35Speaker 03

  Uh, Klaus Van Buehlau was found guilty uh, of attempted murder of his wife in March.

• 5:42Josh Clark?

  I didn't make it to the end of reversal of fortune, so I honestly didn't know what happened to Klaus.

• 5:47Speaker 03

  Guilty.

• 5:47Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 5:48Speaker 03

  Uh, in June, uh, was the murder of Vincent Chen, who was a Chinese American who was beaten to death uh, by two men in Michigan, thinking he was a Japanese and they were like stealing his their autowork.

• 6:02Josh Clark?

  Oh, my God.

• 6:03Speaker 03

  I know, right? Uh, and then July 9th, Pan Am Flight 759 goes down in Louisiana, uh, Louisiana, kills all 146 people on board, plus eight more on the ground. And then in September, early September.

• 6:18Josh Clark?

  Please stop.

• 6:18Speaker 03

  Was when, I know, man, remember planes used to just crash?

• 6:21Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 6:22Speaker 03

  A lot.

• 6:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that never happens now.

• 6:24Speaker 03

  Uh, not as much, but yeah, weird that we're recording this in the midst of more plane crashes.

• 6:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 6:30Speaker 03

  And then early September was when that uh, paper boy in Iowa Iowa was kidnapped and never seen again, Johnny Gosh.

• 6:38Josh Clark?

  Hmm, I don't know that one.

• 6:39Speaker 03

  That was a big deal, too, because it was, you know. The Paper Boy and there was this false story about a pedophile ring from politicians and that turned out not to be true, but he was never found again.

• 6:50Josh Clark?

  So basically, everything that's going on today is just a rehash of 1982, it sounds like.

• 6:55Speaker 03

  I just remember being about that age and they're just, the nightly news sort of just being a horror show. And not politically speaking.

• 7:04Josh Clark?

  You know.

• 7:04Speaker 03

  Like real bad incidences occurring.

• 7:07Josh Clark?

  Well, yeah, plane crash, like just about at any age, like that'll, that'll bring you down. If you see that on the news, for sure.

• 7:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 7:15Josh Clark?

  Because, you know, when you get on a plane, you think, huh, maybe this plane will go down while I'm on it and that would be terrible.

• 7:21Speaker 03

  Although I wasn't flying at 11.

• 7:23Josh Clark?

  So all of those things you just mentioned. Sweep them totally off the table.

• 7:28Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 7:29Josh Clark?

  Because come the end of September of that year, nothing else mattered, but what we're about to talk about now.

• 7:37Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 7:38Josh Clark?

  Nothing. Nothing came close to taking the, over the national psyche, like the deaths of seven people.

• 7:50Josh Clark?

  Beginning on September 29th, 1982 in Chicago, Illinois.

• 7:54Speaker 03

  Yeah. And one of the articles I read about this, I mean, are we trying to keep it a secret? It's a show title, right?

• 8:00Josh Clark?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think they're gonna have to figure it out. So, yeah, go ahead.

• 8:03Speaker 03

  The Tylenol murders?

• 8:04Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 8:05Speaker 03

  Okay. You're like, oh, no, no.

• 8:08Josh Clark?

  But that's, that comes up in part two.

• 8:10Speaker 03

  Oh yeah, this is a two parter.

• 8:11Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 8:12Speaker 03

  As well.

• 8:12Josh Clark?

  So buckle in, everybody.

• 8:14Speaker 03

  So I was doing some research though, and I saw one article that said something about, you know, the first domestic terror incident in the United States that nobody's ever heard of. I was like, what? Who hasn't heard of this?

• 8:26Josh Clark?

  A millennial wrote that headline.

• 8:28Speaker 03

  Well, I have to say, Josh on the way in here.

• 8:30Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 8:31Speaker 03

  I told him Tylenol murders and he went, huh?

• 8:33Josh Clark?

  He goes, what's a Tylenol? You old codger?

• 8:38Speaker 03

  We should probably say what Tylenol is, huh?

• 8:40Josh Clark?

  Oh, okay. Yeah, I guess just in case you are a millennial and you've never heard of Tylenol. But Tylenol was and still is an over the counter pain reliever. It's like you have aches and pains and apparently what's crazy, people would take Tylenol, whatever was wrong with them.

• 8:56Speaker 03

  Right.

• 8:57Josh Clark?

  Because now you can go get like, you know, aspirin and, um,

• 9:02Speaker 03

  You can get aspirin back then too.

• 9:03Josh Clark?

  And Aleve, there was no Aleve back then. That was a 90s drug. There's way more over the counter pain relievers now than there were back then. Back then, Tylenol was basically it.

• 9:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's acetaminophen, which is different than aspirin. And I think a lot of people just think those are interchangeable.

• 9:20Josh Clark?

  Right. Well, the reason I believe Tylenol became so big is because aspirin upsets a lot of people's stomachs.

• 9:28Speaker 03

  Right.

• 9:28Josh Clark?

  Tylenol does not, or it's not supposed to. And that's why it came out of nowhere and just took over the aspirin market. I think by 1982, Tylenol had 37% of the market.

• 9:41Speaker 03

  That's pretty good.

• 9:41Josh Clark?

  Cornered. Yeah.

• 9:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 9:43Josh Clark?

  Almost half.

• 9:44Speaker 03

  Especially since like, some of the other like aspirins have been around since, you know, 19th century.

• 9:49Josh Clark?

  Right. So it makes sense then, that when a little girl named Mary Ann Kellerman, complained that she had a sore throat and wasn't feeling too good at like 7:00 AM on Wednesday, September 29th, 1982, her parents said, "Just take an extra strength of Tylenol and go back to bed."

• 10:09Speaker 03

  Man.

• 10:09Josh Clark?

  For a sore throat, for something like that.

• 10:10Speaker 03

  Can you imagine the guilt?

• 10:12Josh Clark?

  Oh, no.

• 10:12Speaker 03

  These parents feel.

• 10:13Josh Clark?

  Well, don't blow it. We haven't said what happens to Mary Ann Kellerman yet.

• 10:17Speaker 03

  I think everybody knows. Uh, yeah, she got up, said I'm sick. He said, "Take this." Uh, the father said he heard her go into the bathroom and closed the door, then heard something drop and went to the door, saying, "Are you okay? You're okay." Uh, no answer, opened the door and there she is on the floor, um, taken to the hospital but died very quickly.

• 10:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah, probably was dead when she went to the hospital, was pronounced there. And she, they suspected, and this is just a little 12 year old girl, a middle school girl, went to Jane Addams Middle School.

• 10:52Josh Clark?

  She, they think she died of a stroke. That's what they thought happened to her. They were just so baffled that they're like, "It had to have been a stroke. That's the only thing that can come on like this."

• 11:01Speaker 03

  Yeah. So that's 7:00 AM. Just, the day is just beginning and one atrocity has already happened.

• 11:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah, this is a, this is a very bad day in the history of Chicago. September 29th, 1982.

• 11:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 11:15Josh Clark?

  And it started early.

• 11:16Speaker 03

  Uh, Adam Janis, who, uh, will detail his story, but put a pin in this one too, because he figures in even more prominently in a minute. But, uh, a little bit later, that same morning, uh, this gentleman, Adam Janis, he's 27 years old and lived in Arlington Heights, another Chicago suburb. And he died, uh, and they think that this is a heart attack. Uh, he complained of chest pains after he had driven his daughter's neighbor home from school. Uh, said, I'm gonna take the day off. Comes home, eats a little lunch, takes two extra strength Tylenol, uh, that he bought from a local drugstore, collapses in front of his wife. And by, you know, a few minutes later, when the paramedics arrive, he was dead.

• 12:01Josh Clark?

  Right. And again, like you said, they said heart attack because he'd been complaining of chest pains, which had nothing to do with it.

• 12:07Speaker 03

  Right.

• 12:07Josh Clark?

  But just like Marianne Kellerman took an extra strength Tylenol for a sore throat, he took some extra strength Tylenol for some chest pains. This is just what people did back then.

• 12:14Speaker 03

  Yeah. And that's what complicated it a little bit at first. Was that, you know, if you take the Tylenol, it means you felt bad already. So obviously, you know, they're gonna be saying like, wait a minute, chest pains or sore throat. Like, how does that figure in?

• 12:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 12:28Speaker 03

  And it didn't.

• 12:29Josh Clark?

  Plus also, what made this even more baffling is that Marianne Kellerman was 12 and healthy. Adam Janis was 27 and healthy.

• 12:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 12:37Josh Clark?

  And all of a sudden they just dropped dead. People don't just drop dead. No matter what you see on TV or in the movies or whatever, dropping dead inexplicably is a really bizarre thing when you're a healthy person. It just doesn't happen.

• 12:50Speaker 03

  Uh, next we have, uh, Mary Reiner.

• 12:53Josh Clark?

  Same day.

• 12:54Speaker 03

  Same day. This is still all on the same day. Um, she's 27 years old. She's feeling a little dizzy. She had just come home from the hospital, uh, after having given birth to her fourth kid a couple of days before. Super, super sad. All of these are, obviously, but being a, just a brand-new mom for the fourth time is just so tragic. And then by 3:45, she was so ill, she was rushed back to the hospital and again, died very, very quickly.

• 13:24Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and like Adam Janis collapsed in front of his wife. She collapsed in front of her young eight-year-old daughter. One of her children saw her. And yeah, when she was taken to the hospital, they pronounced her dead as well. This is mid-afternoon. Mary McFarland was up next. She was over in the suburb of Lombard, and she worked at an Illinois Bell Phone Center, where you remember like, you'd go get your phone, like the rotary phone? The, you know, you'd actually lease your phone?

• 13:55Speaker 03

  I wasn't involved in that process, but we had them in our home.

• 13:59Josh Clark?

  Okay. Well, your parents went to a place-

• 14:01Speaker 03

  I never knew that. I figured they just bought that stuff.

• 14:03Josh Clark?

  No, there was like a store where you would go. It's like the phone company's retail store, and you would go and be like, that pink one.

• 14:10Speaker 03

  It's like smartphones today.

• 14:12Josh Clark?

  Kind of.

• 14:13Speaker 03

  Same model.

• 14:13Josh Clark?

  Kind of. Yeah, I guess so. But this was with a big, clunky rotary phone, and you had to pay extra for the extra-long cord. Well, Mary McFarland worked in one of these stores, and at about 4 o'clock at the Illinois Bell Phone Center, she was, she had a massive headache that just came on out of nowhere. And she went in back and got some extra strength Tylenol out of her purse, took a couple of them, and within minutes, collapsed in the store.

• 14:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, she was young as well. She was 31 years old. Mother of two. And then, remember, I was talking about Adam Janis a few minutes ago. His family goes to the hospital, obviously, everyone converges there. He passes away, and so the family makes their way home to begin mourning and just sort of trying to reconcile what had just happened.

• 15:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 15:02Speaker 03

  His brother Stanley, he was only 25, and then his wife Teresa, who was only 19- Are both just overcome and worn out and have headaches. So they're at Adam's house. They go to his medicine cabinet, get out the Tylenol that he took. Completely unknowingly, obviously. And Stanley hits the ground. Foam comes from his mouth. His eyes roll back in his head. Everyone's freaking out. And a few minutes later, his wife collapses. And they call the ambulance. By the time the ambulances get there, I think Stanley died that day. And Teresa somehow managed to live a couple of days.

• 15:41Josh Clark?

  Yeah, she hung on and I don't know if like her dose is lesser or what. But, but she, she survived for a couple of days after that.

• 15:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, my guess is that there just wasn't as much cyanide in the capsule she took.

• 15:55Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 15:56Speaker 03

  Did I just give something else away?

• 15:57Josh Clark?

  Yeah, you did. But the, so Stanley took his Tylenol first and then Teresa took hers. And one of the paramedics noted, like Teresa was the one that called the ambulance out to come out for Stanley. And when they get there, they're, they're both like on the ground and they're like, what's going on? And one of the paramedics said, everything that was happening to the guy happened to the woman like a couple of minutes later.

• 16:18Speaker 03

  Right.

• 16:18Josh Clark?

  Like she was just following him through this process of like basically systemic organ failure.

• 16:24Speaker 03

  And this is the same day that the, his brother had passed away.

• 16:28Josh Clark?

  Yep, this is about five, six hours, six hours after Adam Janus had died.

• 16:34Speaker 03

  Then finally, I know this is all tough to go through everyone. And we almost selected this as our next live show.

• 16:41Josh Clark?

  I'm really glad we did.

• 16:42Speaker 03

  It's probably a good idea.

• 16:43Josh Clark?

  Cause I mean, can you imagine trying to liven this up with some jokes?

• 16:46Speaker 03

  I, I thought at the time, I was like, no, we can do that. But yeah, the more I got into it, I was like, yeah, this is probably not good live material.

• 16:53Josh Clark?

  Right. We should have a rule of thumb that any story that begins with the death of a 12 year old girl.

• 16:58Speaker 03

  Probably so.

• 16:58Josh Clark?

  Is not live show material.

• 17:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think you're right. So finally we have Paula Prince, Paula Jean Prince. This is a couple of days later. This is not the same day. This is on Friday evening. She was a 35 year old flight attendant. And she was found dead in her apartment after police responded for a welfare check that her sister called in saying, hey, you know, I know she's a flight attendant and all, but no one knows where she is. Can you go check on her?

• 17:24Josh Clark?

  A welfare checkup.

• 17:25Speaker 03

  And they finally found her and she was gone.

• 17:29Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 17:30Speaker 03

  Very, very sad.

• 17:31Josh Clark?

  She was found in her bathroom with a bottle of extra strength Tylenol still open on the counter. And she, they looked into her receipts and found that she had purchased it on Wednesday, September 29th.

• 17:46Speaker 03

  That's right. So at the end of this very short span of time in the Chicago area, we have seven people dead. And I feel like that's a good time to take a message break. Yeah?

• 17:58Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 17:58Speaker 03

  All right.

• 18:11Speaker 02

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• 18:30Josh Clark?

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• 18:47Speaker 02

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• 19:14Speaker 02

  Hey everybody. The holidays are coming up, so let us throw this out there. Are you prepared to host friends or family? Like, really prepared? Because there's a difference between having people stay at your house and properly hosting them.

• 19:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's what we thought. So maybe it's time for a little refresh. Well, we have a tip. For all things hosting, Wayfair delivers high-quality, customer-trusted products for your home, so you can host and celebrate without the stress.

• 19:39Speaker 02

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• 19:48Josh Clark?

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• 20:00Speaker 02

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• 20:17Josh Clark?

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• 20:34Speaker 02

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• 20:50Josh Clark?

  Yeah, plus, everything at Quince is priced 50% to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen, so you can give luxury-quality pieces without the luxury price tag.

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• 21:26Speaker 02

  Hey everybody. If you've been thinking about securing your home, there's no better time to protect it with SimpliSafe. Right now, you can save 70% on a new system, their biggest savings of the year. You've heard us talk about SimpliSafe before, and you know it's designed to keep threats away from the door and your loved ones safe in the first place. If you thought about SimpliSafe at all, now is the time to finally secure your home.

• 21:45Josh Clark?

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• 22:02Speaker 02

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• 22:29Josh Clark?

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• 23:02Josh Clark?

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• 23:14Speaker 02

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• 23:49Josh Clark?

  Okay Chuck, so you said cyanide, how did you know that?

• 23:54Speaker 03

  Cause I was 11 years old and I watched the nightly news like all 11 year olds did.

• 23:59Josh Clark?

  You just called it, right?

• 24:00Speaker 03

  Just me and Brokaw, Dan Rather, Koppel, who else?

• 24:05Josh Clark?

  That was it.

• 24:05Speaker 03

  Peter Jennings.

• 24:06Josh Clark?

  He came a little later, but sure.

• 24:08Speaker 03

  Was he?

• 24:09Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Yeah, he came after somebody.

• 24:12Speaker 03

  Well, I mean Cronkite wasn't still around, was he or was he?

• 24:15Josh Clark?

  Hmm, I don't know. I don't think so.

• 24:18Speaker 03

  I was, I was kind of into the news as a kid a little bit.

• 24:21Josh Clark?

  Well, yeah, I mean, that was, that was where you got your news back then.

• 24:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, you would watch the evening news. It's very strange to think about now.

• 24:28Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 24:28Speaker 03

  With the, with the up to the minute news cycle.

• 24:31Josh Clark?

  So, oh yeah, I know. How much more innocent things were back then.

• 24:34Speaker 03

  I know.

• 24:35Josh Clark?

  So, remove yourself from the benefit of hindsight, or the benefit of Dan Rather's insight. And put yourself in the shoes of the, the people in Chicago, right?

• 24:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:46Josh Clark?

  These are five, these are seven different deaths. Um, I think from five different townships in the greater Chicago area, including Chicago. Paula Prince, the last person to die, lived in Chicago. These people aren't talking. These people have no idea what's going on. It's just that there were five, seven separate baffling deaths.

• 25:08Speaker 03

  You keep saying five, you want to, few, fewer people to be dead.

• 25:12Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I do.

• 25:12Speaker 03

  That's good.

• 25:13Josh Clark?

  My wishes aren't working though. It just so happens that the ambulance, the paramedics that showed up to attend to Mary, Mary Ann Kellerman, the first girl to die. They were just logging everything, because it was such a baffling thing, and they logged her Tylenol.

• 25:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, logged as in collected.

• 25:33Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 25:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 25:34Josh Clark?

  Took it as evidence to maybe look into, who knows?

• 25:37Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 25:37Josh Clark?

  But they took the extra strength Tylenol that she had taken, not thinking anything of it, but just basically throwing anything at the wall to see what stuck.

• 25:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm sure the dad was like, you know, she went in, took some Tylenol and dropped dead.

• 25:48Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 25:48Speaker 03

  So it probably made sense, even though it's just Tylenol, to say like, well, hey, let's at least take this in.

• 25:53Josh Clark?

  Yes, and that Tylenol, right.

• 25:56Speaker 03

  You know?

• 25:57Josh Clark?

  Because that bottle of Tylenol made its way into the hands of a medical examiner, whose name was

• 26:05Speaker 03

  Michael Schaefer.

• 26:06Josh Clark?

  And Michael Schaefer tested the Tylenol and was rather surprised to find that some of the capsules had not Tylenol in it, but 65 milligrams of potassium cyanide.

• 26:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 26:19Josh Clark?

  And it takes about 50 milligrams to kill a healthy adult.

• 26:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, some of them, I don't think they were all exactly the same, but some of them had been completely emptied of any acetaminophen and completely filled with cyanide.

• 26:33Josh Clark?

  With cyanide, right?

• 26:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, it was, it was someone intent on for sure killing people.

• 26:38Josh Clark?

  Yes, because cyanide is no joke.

• 26:40Speaker 03

  No.

• 26:41Josh Clark?

  It's a, it's a really, really small molecule, and it normally attaches to metals outside of the body, which is why you have, or minerals, I guess, which is why you have potassium cyanide.

• 26:53Speaker 03

  Right.

• 26:54Josh Clark?

  When it goes into the body, when you ingest it, however you ingest it, whether it's from a Tylenol capsule, or breathing cyanide gas like they used to use to execute people with.

• 27:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, like, they stopped using it for executions because it was such a brutal death.

• 27:08Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's a very cruel, painful way to die. In the body, it detaches from its mineral or metal, and it attaches to a protein in the body called cytochrome C oxidase, which doesn't sound like it'd be a big problem, but it turns out that that's about the worst protein that cyanide could attach itself to, because we really need cytochrome C oxidase to breathe.

• 27:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, basically, it, I mean, this sounds like such a cruel thing, because it's just rapid cell death, and it's not like your throat closes up and you can't breathe, like, you're inhaling oxygen, and you've, you are technically taking breaths, but the oxygen is not getting in the cells.

• 27:53Josh Clark?

  No, it's not, because that C, or that cytochrome C oxidase is what helps transport the oxygen and allows the oxygen to be used for energy.

• 28:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 28:04Josh Clark?

  So if the potassium is clinging To it, the oxygen can't. It just stays in the bloodstream and it doesn't get used by the cells. And since your central nervous system is the most oxygen hungry system in your entire body.

• 28:16Speaker 03

  Does a lot of work.

• 28:17Josh Clark?

  It starts to shut down first and when your brain and your spinal cord start shutting down, all sorts of things happen. Your lungs start shutting down, your heart, God bless it, keeps beating for minutes after the rest of your body shut down.

• 28:32Speaker 03

  It can.

• 28:32Josh Clark?

  So you're not technically dead. They're not sure exactly how long the pain and excruciation of dying from cyanide lasts, but they think you're probably conscious and aware and freaked out for about a minute at least, and your heart may continue beating for three or four minutes after that. So it's not a pleasant death at all.

• 28:52Speaker 03

  No, I mean, you're, you're gasping for air, you're breathing in air, nothing's happening. Like I said, Stanley Janis, he was foaming at the mouth and his eyes rolled back in his head in front of his family. It's just like, it's awful, like writhing on the floor, gasping for air, you're breathing, but it's not doing anything. It's just, I can't imagine anything more horrifying.

• 29:14Josh Clark?

  Right, because your central nervous system is kind of falling out of its, out of control or rhythm. Convulsions are usually a hallmark of cyanide poisoning.

• 29:23Speaker 03

  And then you turn bright red at the end of it.

• 29:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 29:25Speaker 03

  Your skin.

• 29:26Josh Clark?

  A cherry red, they said, because when your body has gotten rid of oxygen to your cells and the oxygen becomes depleted, your, your skin kind of turns like a rusty brownish red. But because it can unload that oxygen when you're dead, it stays a bright red and your skin turns bright red. And then the other real telltale sign is your breath will smell a bit like almonds.

• 29:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, not a bit. I mean, these bottles supposedly were really pungent with bitter almond and unless you know what that means. Then you're probably not clued in, you know? Like, I wouldn't, I wouldn't have known.

• 30:05Josh Clark?

  For sure.

• 30:06Speaker 03

  If I opened a bottle of Tylenol and it smelled like bitter almond, I'd probably be like, huh.

• 30:09Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 30:10Speaker 03

  It's a nice smell, actually.

• 30:11Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I like this Tylenol.

• 30:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:13Josh Clark?

  Guess they have a new almond flavor.

• 30:15Speaker 03

  Awful.

• 30:16Josh Clark?

  So, Michael Schaefer, the medical examiner, has just realized that this, this little girl has been poisoned. But he, he knows nothing about these other deaths.

• 30:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:25Josh Clark?

  There's nothing like that. Um, it's not entirely clear how everything became connected, or who connected it. But what I find just particularly astonishing is that, within just a few hours, by that evening, by the evening of September 29th, people were saying, there's something up with the Tylenol in these mysterious deaths that have been going on all around Chicago.

• 30:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, and not, I mean, we'll get into the, the dragnet they cast, but within a few days, they had kind of solved everything, but who did it and how it may have happened.

• 31:00Josh Clark?

  Who done it?

• 31:01Speaker 03

  Who done it?

• 31:02Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 31:04Speaker 03

  So, yeah, very quickly, they figured out the Tylenol, and there are a couple of different stories on, like you said, on who, who was the first person to point this out. Um, one story is that a reporter for the City News Bureau in Chicago was doing the reporter thing, and then doing some deep diving and investigating, and called up a deputy coroner and said, hey, I think this is what's happening, they told the police. Uh, another story is that two people who didn't know each other kind of came together independently to, um, let people know. One was a fire captain named, uh, Philip Capitelli.

• 31:38Josh Clark?

  I knew it, I knew you were gonna do that. There was like a 90% chance.

• 31:43Speaker 03

  You know why? Cause we got a lot of support from people that wrote in saying, I'm Italian and I love it, keep doing it.

• 31:48Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 31:49Speaker 03

  And only one guy who hated it.

• 31:51Josh Clark?

  But ironically, it was Fire Captain Philip Capitelli.

• 31:54Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 31:55Josh Clark?

  Who had written in and said, no.

• 31:56Speaker 03

  So, he, uh, here, here was his deal. His, um, his mother-in-law was friends with Mary Kellerman, the victim's mother.

• 32:06Josh Clark?

  Yeah, the first of the little girl.

• 32:07Speaker 03

  And she said, hey, would you mind looking into this? Cause I'm friends with this little girl's mom.

• 32:12Josh Clark?

  And it's weird that she dropped dead at age 12.

• 32:14Speaker 03

  And he's a fire captain, and they're all connected to, you know, the police and to the

• 32:18Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 32:19Speaker 03

  medical community.

• 32:20Josh Clark?

  Everybody knows, you want something done? Ask a fire captain.

• 32:23Speaker 03

  I would.

• 32:23Josh Clark?

  Sure. Cause they'll bust into the room with an axe. Get everybody's attention.

• 32:29Speaker 03

  So he's, he's investigating and then there's this, there's a nurse named Helen Jensen. And she, I don't, do you know why she was so into this case? Was she just a do-gooder?

• 32:42Josh Clark?

  No, no, no. She was the, um, uh, public health nurse for Cook County, I believe.

• 32:48Speaker 03

  Oh, okay. So she had an official designation to investigate.

• 32:51Josh Clark?

  Yes, but unfortunately, no one would listen to her because this is 1982 and she was a nurse.

• 32:56Speaker 03

  Right.

• 32:57Josh Clark?

  Even though she was like a public health director, she was still a nurse and people wouldn't listen to her. And she recalled in an oral history, I read about this.

• 33:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:04Josh Clark?

  That she was stomping her feet out of frustration, saying like, there's something wrong with the Tylenol. Like the, the Tylenol is behind all this and people wouldn't listen to her.

• 33:13Speaker 03

  Amazing.

• 33:14Josh Clark?

  Supposedly she and Philip.

• 33:16Speaker 03

  Capitelli.

• 33:17Josh Clark?

  Got together and, um, joined forces.

• 33:20Speaker 03

  Right.

• 33:21Josh Clark?

  And I guess were able to convince everybody that no, there's something wrong with the, uh, with the Tylenol. And by this time, people started talking.

• 33:29Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 33:29Josh Clark?

  And, you know, the, the idea that Michael Schaefer had identified Tylenol, I don't know if it was the same day or the day after, something like that, but all of this is within a span of 36, 48 hours tops.

• 33:42Speaker 03

  It was really fast.

• 33:43Josh Clark?

  That all of this is going on, that the dots are being connected.

• 33:46Speaker 03

  Right. So, uh, then what follows is, um, Cook County's deputy chief medical examiner, Dr. Edmund Donahue, holds a presser. I've either watched this one or one of the other ones. Like I remember specifically seeing this press conference on the news.

• 34:01Josh Clark?

  Probably saw Jane Burns.

• 34:04Speaker 03

  That would have been the, the nationwide one, I guess.

• 34:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And I was like, how would that have been nationwide? And then I looked it up. WGN was a super station starting in 1980.

• 34:14Speaker 03

  Oh, you know it, man.

• 34:14Josh Clark?

  So everybody saw it because WGN could broadcast nationwide by 1982.

• 34:20Speaker 03

  I, I watched Cubs games as a kid, just because it was on.

• 34:24Josh Clark?

  Yep. That was it. Like that and Braves games were all you could see.

• 34:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, man. So Dr. Donahue, um, has a presser, a local presser. Um, of course there is panic initially.

• 34:36Josh Clark?

  Yeah. He scares the. S out of everybody because he comes out of nowhere and says, stop taking the Tylenol.

• 34:44Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, sure. And so anyone, I mean, imagine how many people in Chicago had taken Tylenol within two hours of that press conference.

• 34:51Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 34:52Speaker 03

  And are thinking like, should I go to the hospital?

• 34:54Josh Clark?

  Right. And as a matter of fact, um, the poison control lines for basically in every city where somebody saw this started to light up.

• 35:04Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 35:04Josh Clark?

  Right after that. And people were like, I just took Tylenol. Am I okay?

• 35:06Speaker 03

  Or gave my kid.

• 35:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 35:08Speaker 03

  Can you imagine?

• 35:08Josh Clark?

  And the, what came to be the pat response was if you are still standing and talking to us, you're probably okay.

• 35:16Speaker 03

  Which is sort of a double edged sword.

• 35:18Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 35:18Speaker 03

  It's like, don't worry, you die super fast.

• 35:21Josh Clark?

  Right, kind of.

• 35:22Speaker 03

  So just relax.

• 35:23Josh Clark?

  So just hold the line for five minutes and then I'm going to come back and check on you. And if you're still talking, you're fine.

• 35:27Speaker 03

  Oh, man. Um, all right. So then, uh, the Chicago mayor's office gets involved. Like you said, Mayor Jane Byrne, she gets, says, you know, print a bunch of flyers, print them in a bunch of languages.

• 35:39Josh Clark?

  Maybe on Goldenrod and Cornflower Blue.

• 35:42Speaker 03

  Sure. Why not?

• 35:43Josh Clark?

  Really catch people's attention.

• 35:45Speaker 03

  She had police drive through, um, with loudspeakers on their car, literally saying, like, don't take Tylenol.

• 35:54Josh Clark?

  Reenacting that scene from The Blues Brothers where they're driving.

• 35:57Speaker 03

  I was thinking Slacker. That's funny. Two different movies.

• 36:00Josh Clark?

  But do you remember they're driving through in the police car with the loudspeaker talking about their, their show?

• 36:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, same as Slacker.

• 36:07Josh Clark?

  I don't remember. I don't, I guess I didn't make it to the end of Slack or either.

• 36:10Speaker 03

  Hmm. It was in the middle ish.

• 36:12Josh Clark?

  It was No Days and Confused, huh?

• 36:15Speaker 03

  Oh, just different movies.

• 36:16Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 36:17Speaker 03

  So they're, they're posting flyers, cops are driving around blaring it through neighborhoods. And then she has, uh, a press conference. She has all Tylenol removed from the Chicago area.

• 36:29Josh Clark?

  She calls for it.

• 36:31Speaker 03

  Well, sure. She didn't go around with her, her basket.

• 36:34Josh Clark?

  Right. No, I'm not a hundred percent clear if she was actually able to demand that the Tylenol be removed. I think she was more warning.

• 36:44Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, I doubt if there was any law she could invoke.

• 36:47Josh Clark?

  I wonder though. Seems like you would want something like that.

• 36:50Speaker 03

  Well, afterward, I would imagine. That's, you know, we'll talk about that later.

• 36:53Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 36:53Speaker 03

  So, um, the TV and the radio, uh, you know, obviously everyone picks this up, not just in Chicago or the United States. It goes worldwide.

• 37:01Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 37:02Speaker 03

  And so, you know, there's people in Europe and Asia pulling Tylenol off the shelves.

• 37:06Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So, this is a big deal. And there was a lot of attention lavished on this. There was a poll that was taken the next month, in October, that found that 90%, and this was in cities all over the country, that found that 90% of respondents were aware of this Tylenol poisoning story.

• 37:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 37:27Josh Clark?

  Some, uh, some press agency, like a news clipping service, said that it's, the number of, the number of stories dedicated to it were second only to the number of stories dedicated to the assassination of JFK.

• 37:41Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 37:41Josh Clark?

  That's how big this story became overnight. And again, one of the reasons why is because everybody took Tylenol for everything all the time. That's just what you did. It was just something everyone took. And that same product was now killing people.

• 37:59Speaker 03

  So, the most chilling part of all this to me, and this is all chilling, uh, maybe the copycat stuff. Because almost immediately, um, copycat incidences started popping up all over the country. Um, there were 270 reports of product tampering in the month after. Thirty-six were, quote, hardcore, true tamperings. And that's what's most chilling to me is like, there were that many people, at least 36, let's go in the low end, 36 people across the country that wanted to kill people and just saw an idea and were like, oh, that's what I'll do now.

• 38:38Josh Clark?

  I should have thought of that myself.

• 38:40Speaker 03

  I mean, that's scary, man.

• 38:41Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 38:43Speaker 03

  What's...

• 38:44Josh Clark?

  What's scary but also infuriating is that they're such terrible self-starters that they had to be a copycat murderer in that.

• 38:51Speaker 03

  Right.

• 38:51Josh Clark?

  You know what I'm saying?

• 38:52Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 38:53Josh Clark?

  Like, it's bad enough that they're trying to kill somebody.

• 38:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 38:55Josh Clark?

  Randomly kill somebody, anonymously kill somebody, they didn't even think of it themselves.

• 39:00Speaker 03

  I know.

• 39:01Josh Clark?

  That is a pathetic murderer, right there.

• 39:03Speaker 03

  That's pretty pathetic.

• 39:03Josh Clark?

  Put my foot down.

• 39:05Speaker 03

  Uh, Excedrin, extra strength Excedrin capsules, um, were found poisoned with mercuric chloride.

• 39:12Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 39:12Speaker 03

  Uh, and that almost killed a man in Colorado. Uh, his name was William Sinkovich. And he got, he had liver and kidney failure, but he did survive.

• 39:22Josh Clark?

  Uh, this one gets me. So, more than one person thought, "Oh, well, you know, people spray and like drop things in their eyes and nose, I'll put acid in there." So, tampered Cynex and tampered Visine both turned up after they had burned people with acid. Chemical burn up your nose.

• 39:40Speaker 03

  Unbelievable.

• 39:41Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's a bad one.

• 39:42Speaker 03

  So, food was also on the list of things being tampered with. Um, orange juice, chocolate milk, uh, very high-profile incident with ballpark hot dogs.

• 39:52Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 39:52Speaker 03

  They pulled a million pounds of wieners off the shelves.

• 39:55Josh Clark?

  And ran them through a metal detector.

• 39:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, cuz this was a scare, all of, you know, the old urban legend of razor blades and Halloween candy.

• 40:04Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 40:05Speaker 03

  I don't, did they actually find pins and needles and things for sure?

• 40:08Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 40:09Speaker 03

  Okay, cuz I thought that had literally never happened.

• 40:12Josh Clark?

  It hadn't. It was an urban legend that became true.

• 40:15Speaker 03

  Okay. But, nothing in, in the wieners?

• 40:18Josh Clark?

  No, some boys, I think in Detroit, claimed to have found razor blades in their ballpark wieners. And like you said, a million pounds were recalled, and then the boys were like, "Wow, we were just kidding."

• 40:28Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 40:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 40:30Speaker 03

  Unbelievable.

• 40:31Josh Clark?

  And ballpark, we'll, we'll talk about how ballpark was treated after that, but they were put on shoulders and carried around for how great they handled everything.

• 40:38Speaker 03

  Uh, and, you know, there were a lot of hoaxes, there were a lot of, um, tips called in about other tampering. Uh, and it had a really, like, it, if the purpose of this was to induce panic and fear and, and terror, then it absolutely worked.

• 40:54Josh Clark?

  Absolutely.

• 40:56Speaker 03

  Should we take another break?

• 40:57Josh Clark?

  I think so, man. We're gonna come back and talk about the investigation.

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• 41:32Josh Clark?

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• 42:17Josh Clark?

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• 42:34Speaker 02

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• 42:49Josh Clark?

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• 43:02Speaker 02

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• 43:26Josh Clark?

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• 43:41Speaker 02

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• 43:54Josh Clark?

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• 44:08Speaker 02

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• 44:46Josh Clark?

  Okay, Chuck, I also want to point this out. Time Magazine, you know how I'm like super into going back and reading contemporary news articles about an event?

• 44:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:57Josh Clark?

  This one, I mean, it's all over the place. But Time wrote about the copycat incidents back in 1982. And they said that the copycats were trying to, quote, emulate their demonic hero, the still unknown poisoner.

• 45:14Josh Clark?

  They're demonic hero. That's what the journalists from Time decided to go with.

• 45:19Speaker 03

  That's funny. I guess, I mean, that seems like a very 2019 thing to write.

• 45:23Josh Clark?

  That's what I'm saying. I feel like we're reverting back to 1982 right now.

• 45:27Speaker 03

  Are we?

• 45:27Josh Clark?

  I guess so. After that intro of yours, I'm now convinced.

• 45:31Speaker 03

  All right.

• 45:32Josh Clark?

  So everybody's freaked out. There, there are whole towns that canceled Halloween. Because remember, this happened like a month before Halloween and everyone was very scared about candy tampering because of the urban legend.

• 45:46Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 45:46Josh Clark?

  In some places, it turned out to be true, a self fulfilling prophecy. There are all these hoaxes. There are all these actual true product tampering, copycats. People were freaked out and the cops needed to do something. And initially, these seven different deaths in five different towns in the Chicago area were being treated as five different investigations.

• 46:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 46:10Josh Clark?

  That didn't last for very long. Within two days, by Friday, by the time Mayor Byrne holds her press conference on WGN,

• 46:19Josh Clark?

  what came to be called the Tylenol Task Force was formed. All five of those investigations got folded into not just local investigations, the FBI, the Illinois State Police.

• 46:31Speaker 03

  FDA, of course.

• 46:32Josh Clark?

  Yeah, the FDA was involved. And then the whole thing was led by the Illinois District Attorney's Office, who was the nominal head of the investigation.

• 46:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, so they figured out pretty quickly that,

• 46:45Speaker 03

  you know, like I said earlier, they cast their dragnet. They come up with about a 50 mile radius of where all this stuff was bought and sold. And go investigate drugstore after drugstore and they did find more, more bad Tylenol that are still sitting on the shelves, thankfully.

• 47:04Josh Clark?

  Yeah, yeah, I don't, I don't want to skim past that. They found more Tylenol waiting to be bought.

• 47:10Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 47:11Josh Clark?

  Like just sitting there like, hey, come by me. Within two days of, of these first deaths.

• 47:17Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 47:18Josh Clark?

  These first murders, we keep calling them deaths. These were murders.

• 47:21Speaker 03

  That's right. And they name their, their case. There's, there are always code names for all these cases. This one ranks pretty low, in my opinion. Timurs, T Y M U R S, short obviously for Tylenol murders.

• 47:37Josh Clark?

  At the very least, the S should have been a Z.

• 47:40Speaker 03

  Timurs?

• 47:40Josh Clark?

  Yeah. You know?

• 47:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 47:43Josh Clark?

  Just give it a little flavor.

• 47:44Speaker 03

  Agreed. So the cops are, there was some confusion about how this went down because they're trying to figure out, you know, did it happen at the factory? Did it happen after the factory?

• 47:56Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 47:56Speaker 03

  What's the supply chain like?

• 47:58Josh Clark?

  Well, that's huge. That's like the crux of the investigation.

• 48:01Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, absolutely.

• 48:02Josh Clark?

  Where did the tainting occur?

• 48:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, so they found out that all of the containers were from lot number MC 2880, which was pushed out in August. Again, this is the end of September.

• 48:15Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 48:16Speaker 03

  And states east, all states east of the Mississippi, plus the Dakotas, Nebraska, and a bit of Wyoming.

• 48:23Josh Clark?

  Just a touch, just a touch of Wyoming for flavor.

• 48:26Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 48:26Josh Clark?

  Like the Z.

• 48:27Speaker 03

  For that mesquite flavor.

• 48:28Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 48:30Speaker 03

  However, they were from different production plants and they were sold in different drugstores.

• 48:34Josh Clark?

  Which is weird. It's tough to wrap your head around that because it's the same lot.

• 48:38Speaker 03

  Right.

• 48:38Josh Clark?

  But they came from different plants.

• 48:40Speaker 03

  Right.

• 48:40Josh Clark?

  And it turns out Tylenol has also a really weird, convoluted distribution network.

• 48:46Speaker 03

  I think that's every company.

• 48:48Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 48:48Speaker 03

  I have a friend that works in supply chain management and I was like, huh?

• 48:52Josh Clark?

  So supposedly they'll, they'll take boxes and open them up and repackage them in smaller boxes. And it happens at like different, different companies at different points around the country.

• 49:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's pretty complicated.

• 49:03Josh Clark?

  It is.

• 49:03Speaker 03

  From, from a product, from factory to your mouth.

• 49:06Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 49:06Speaker 03

  Like what happens to kind of everything.

• 49:08Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 49:10Speaker 03

  I would think simplicity would be safer.

• 49:13Josh Clark?

  Much.

• 49:13Speaker 03

  You know?

• 49:14Josh Clark?

  Probably not cheaper, though.

• 49:16Speaker 03

  You're probably right. So what they finally figured out was, here's what we think happened is this stuff was not tainted at the factory. This stuff was not tainted in the supply chain, but this stuff was tainted. It from the store and then returned back to the store.

• 49:35Josh Clark?

  Right, because these pills were sold in different stores, which is a big one. Because it not only could it have been like part of the factory, it could have been one of the local stores' distribution centers where there was somebody messing with it.

• 49:49Speaker 03

  Right.

• 49:50Josh Clark?

  But since they were sold in Jewel Food Stores, in Walgreens, and other places too, around the Chicago area, that didn't make any sense. It couldn't have just been like the Jewel Distribution Center. And also, because they were coming from different production plants, it really couldn't have been the production plant or the factory where it came from.

• 50:08Speaker 03

  Right.

• 50:09Josh Clark?

  It had to be, like you said, happening at the stores.

• 50:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, and there were a lot of initial theories, you know? Was it someone who, like a former disgruntled employee of Johnson & Johnson?

• 50:20Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 50:20Speaker 03

  Was it someone, was it just a serial killer? Who just picked Tylenol and wanted to randomly kill people?

• 50:28Josh Clark?

  Right, and this is, that's weird. That's a weird idea at the time. Like now it just seems normal, like, yeah, probably.

• 50:33Speaker 03

  That's sad.

• 50:34Josh Clark?

  But this, but this was two years before the San Ysidro McDonald's massacre, which is one of the very, one of the next random

• 50:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 50:45Josh Clark?

  killings of people who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. This was kind of the first of that. But it was still so new and remote and alien that that's, that didn't seem like a realistic idea at the time.

• 50:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, some of the other ideas, they thought, um, maybe this was someone that was targeting a specific person or people, and then randomly poisoned other people to cover their tracks.

• 51:09Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 51:10Speaker 03

  Uh, one of the weird, um, one of the weird theories that came out later, after, and spoiler alert, we now have tamper-proof, uh, medicines. I'm sure everyone's noticed. There was one theory that it was someone who had a financial stake in tamper-proof technology.

• 51:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I saw something like that, too.

• 51:31Speaker 03

  I don't think there was ever a ton of credence put into that one, but point is, there were a lot, I mean, they were flying blind, basically, because it was just such an unexpected, odd, random thing. They were basically coming up with kind of any idea they could think of.

• 51:44Josh Clark?

  But the one that the cops settled on, and the one that Johnson and Johnson also settled on, too, because they went back and tested samples from lot MC 2880, and found that there was no, there was no tainting of the lot.

• 51:58Speaker 03

  Right.

• 51:58Josh Clark?

  Their samples were pure. So the cops and Johnson and Johnson both decided, they settled on what's called the mad poisoner theory.

• 52:06Speaker 03

  Right.

• 52:06Josh Clark?

  That somebody went around this 50-mile radius in the Chicago area, in about seven hours is what the cops calculated it would have taken, either bought a bunch of Tylenol and then took it back to their house and poisoned it, repackaged it, and then drove around and redistributed it, or went from store to store, went in, bought some Tylenol, took it out to the car, poisoned it, and then repackaged it and brought it back in. But that it was local and it was specific to Chicago. That was the mad poisoner theory. And again, why? Still, no one has any idea why. It could have been random, they could have been targeting somebody, it could have been a disgruntled Johnson and Johnson employee,

• 52:50Josh Clark?

  but the main theory for the Tylenol killings of 1982 in Chicago is the mad poisoner theory.

• 52:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, and do you know how they tested the rest of that lot? They got Detective John Pinky McFarland, who had the best drug pinky in all of Illinois. And he went around and dipped that pinky in, touched it to his tongue, and said, "It's good."

• 53:14Josh Clark?

  He's like, "I can't feel my face right now."

• 53:16Speaker 03

  The guy's a legend.

• 53:17Josh Clark?

  Yeah, his pinky, his pinky ring is so significant, he can barely lift his finger. He only lifts it to test drugs.

• 53:24Speaker 03

  I told you we'd find some jokes.

• 53:25Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 53:26Speaker 03

  So, by mid-October, this is sort of the final bit of part one here. There was another bottle that people, that they found, another tainted bottle.

• 53:37Josh Clark?

  This is so crazy.

• 53:38Speaker 03

  That was purchased on September 29th, so it fit the bill. And it was a woman who... Was feeling bad and went to go get that Tylenol. And her sister was like, no, I've got some Bufferin right here. Just go ahead and take that. And the lady presumably said, well, I really prefer acetaminophen, but I guess I'll take an aspirin.

• 53:57Josh Clark?

  Yeah, her sister in law saved her by offering her Bufferin instead.

• 54:01Speaker 03

  You believe that?

• 54:01Josh Clark?

  She was steps away from dropping dead at a family gathering.

• 54:05Speaker 03

  Unbelievable.

• 54:06Josh Clark?

  Yep. That is a good place to stop, huh?

• 54:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:09Josh Clark?

  So that's part one of the Tylenol murders, or Ty-murders with an S. And we're going to come back with part two after this. If you want to get in touch with us in the meantime, you can go on to stuffyoushouldknow.com and check out our social links, or you can send us a good old fashioned email, 1982 version, to [email protected].

• 54:34Speaker 00

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 54:49Josh Clark?

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• 56:22Speaker 05

  What's that?

• 56:23Speaker 02

  My fresh detector.

• 56:24Speaker 05

  Uh, your what?

• 56:25Speaker 02

  There it is.

• 56:26Speaker 05

  What is it detecting?

• 56:28Speaker 02

  Fresh produce, fresh meat.

• 56:31Speaker 05

  Okay, what happens if it detects something really fresh?

• 56:36Speaker 02

  Apparently, we celebrate.

• 56:38Speaker 06

  At Food Lion, you can count on fresh food at fresher prices when your fresh detector is going off. Head to your local Food Lion or shop at foodlion.com. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.