Selects: The Disappearance of Flight MH370, Part I

In 2014, a Boeing 777 airliner disappeared. Despite two full years of searching an area of ocean covering more than 120,000 square kilometers, it has never been found. It is the only unexplained missing vessel in modern aviation history. Listen to this classic episode and find out more about what exactly happened. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 0:45Josh Clark?

  Hosted by Andrew Stratton, these perspectives highlight that life is more than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Living with a rare disease can be challenging, but it does not define the Voices of Vivgard. In these episodes, they share their stories, from diagnosis to working with their care team on their treatment plan. Listen to Voices of Vivgard on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody. It's me, Josh, and for this week's select, I've chosen our two-part episode on the disappearance of MH370 from back in January 2020. It is the greatest unsolved mystery in aviation history since the disappearance of Amelia Earhart and Puerfred Noonan, which is really saying something. It's astounding that with a decade

• 1:30Josh Clark?

  of exhaustive time and attention, the plane still hasn't been found. Maybe someday when we're mapping the entire seafloor of the Indian Ocean, we'll stumble across it. Who knows? But until then, enjoy this harrowing mystery episode of Stuff You Should Know.

• 1:50Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 2:00Josh Clark?

  Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark and there's Charles W., Chuck Bryant and there's Jerry over there and this is Stuff You Should Know About One of the Most Interesting Mysteries in Modern Times.

• 2:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:15Josh Clark?

  Like, it's really tough to get across what a mystery the missing airliner MH370 is.

• 2:23Speaker 02

  Malaysian Airlines Flight 370. Yeah, and this is gonna be a two-parter because it's pretty robust.

• 2:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 2:29Speaker 02

  And, boy, hats off to the grabster. He really put together a lot of great research for this one.

• 2:33Josh Clark?

  He did. I also want to give a huge shout-out to one of my journalistic heroes, William Langwaisch.

• 2:38Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:39Josh Clark?

  He wrote something, he writes in The Atlantic, but he's not just an Atlantic writer. He wrote "What Really Happened to Malaysia's Missing Airplane?" Big, old, long article on it.

• 2:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, those are great.

• 2:50Josh Clark?

  And this guy is an aviation expert to begin with, but he's also, have you ever read a Tom Wolfe book or article or whatever? He has a really great knack for making you feel like you're there in the action.

• 3:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:02Josh Clark?

  But then, he also has a knack for making you step back and think, "How does Tom Wolfe know all this? Was he there?" William Langwaisch is the same way.

• 3:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:12Josh Clark?

  And I will, I will go ahead and recommend that you not, unless you are a very courageous person, read any of his work, especially the stuff about airline disasters, anytime around when you're flying.

• 3:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:24Josh Clark?

  Because he puts you in that plane when it's going down or whatever.

• 3:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:28Josh Clark?

  He's really, really good at it. So, I recommend, basically, anything Langwaisch has written, go read. It's worth it, for sure.

• 3:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I think this, coupled with the brief times that we've touched on this kind of thing in the past, whether it was DB Cooper or Bermuda Triangle, like, there's something about aviation disasters and mysteries that are really intriguing to me.

• 3:48Josh Clark?

  Right, yeah.

• 3:49Speaker 02

  And airline forensics.

• 3:51Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 3:51Speaker 02

  It's all, Rick, just super, super interesting.

• 3:53Josh Clark?

  It is. So, you talked about airline forensics and that kind of stuff. This is lousy with it.

• 3:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:58Josh Clark?

  But the reason I was saying why it's tough to overstate, like, what a mystery MH370 is, it's the only airliner that is considered disappeared.

• 4:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:08Josh Clark?

  Vanished. They know where all the other ones are. They know what happened to all the other ones. It's the only major one that is just, where the official investigation said, "We don't know."

• 4:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, and, you know, in part two, we'll get to- A pretty good, well, actually, I think the leading theory comes in this episode, but we kind of think we know, but it's that thing where you like, you can't definitively say.

• 4:32Josh Clark?

  Yeah, can't say where, and you can't say why.

• 4:35Speaker 02

  Right. Yeah, and then the why is, and the where are both really confounding.

• 4:40Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and the reason why air travel in the 21st century is way safer than auto travel is because anytime an airliner goes down, everyone in the international community comes together, investigates it, they do so openly, the airline, the airplane manufacturer, everyone involved is expected to like, tell the truth.

• 5:02Speaker 02

  Right.

• 5:03Josh Clark?

  And you get it out there and you figure out what went wrong, and then you make things safer. And then that makes air travel safer for everybody. They couldn't do this for all sorts of reasons with MH370, and so it's a huge failing among the international community. Not for lack of trying, but because it's just an asterisk out there. It's the only one.

• 5:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, and that's why airplanes don't crash as much anymore. I mean, growing up, it's not like it was every other week or anything, but you used to hear about airline crashes enough to where it gave you pause.

• 5:35Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 5:36Speaker 02

  And you just don't hear about it much anymore.

• 5:38Josh Clark?

  It's true. I mean, it's still out there for sure.

• 5:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, but they seem much more rare than they used to be, kind of like skyjackings.

• 5:47Josh Clark?

  So we'll do our best to put you in the plane.

• 5:51Speaker 02

  In the passenger seat?

• 5:52Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 5:53Speaker 02

  Can we at least be in business class?

• 5:55Josh Clark?

  Buckle, sure.

• 5:56Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 5:56Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 5:57Speaker 02

  Were you about to say buckle up?

• 5:58Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 5:59Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 6:00Josh Clark?

  Buckle up, because we're going to take off on March 8th, 2014, in Kuala Lumpur. It's the very beginning of March 8th. The takeoff scheduled for Malaysian Airlines Flight 370 from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing was scheduled for 12:35 a.m.

• 6:17Speaker 02

  That's right, we're in a Boeing 777-200ER.

• 6:21Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 6:22Speaker 02

  And there are 227 fellow passengers aboard, 12 flight crew.

• 6:27Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 6:28Speaker 02

  It's a lot of people.

• 6:29Josh Clark?

  Almost about two-thirds of the passengers are Chinese nationals, I believe. There's a bunch of other people from other countries, but for the bulk of the people on the plane were from China.

• 6:39Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 6:40Josh Clark?

  And it's a late night flight. It's expected to arrive in Beijing at about six o'clock.

• 6:47Speaker 02

  Six thirty.

• 6:48Josh Clark?

  Six thirty in Beijing time. And it's gonna fly over the South China Sea, over the Gulf of Thailand, through Laos, Vietnam, and then into China to arrive at Beijing. It didn't actually take off at twelve thirty-five. They took off at twelve forty-two. Not too shabby. Seven minutes, I'm not like sitting there rocking in my seat like, let's go yet, you know? I might not have even noticed. And they take off and it flies up to eighteen thousand feet. And the air traffic control center at Kuala Lumpur says, hey, you guys are cleared for, to go up to thirty-five thousand feet, which is cruising altitude for this flight, I think.

• 7:30Speaker 02

  That's right. And at this point, at eighteen thousand, they switch from the airport's air traffic to Kuala Lumpur area control center.

• 7:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 7:38Speaker 02

  And, you know, the way, the reason we're mentioning all these details is because it turns out they're very important.

• 7:43Josh Clark?

  Very important.

• 7:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, so these are all key.

• 7:46Josh Clark?

  Keep rewinding fifteen, thirty seconds to get every single detail, okay? Because you're gonna need them for the big finish.

• 7:53Speaker 02

  So four minutes later, like you said, they were cleared to go to thirty-five thousand. Took them about fifteen minutes. And it's here where Captain Zahari, and there were two people on board flying this plane, Captain Zahari and, what was the other gentleman's name?

• 8:09Josh Clark?

  First Officer Farid Abdul Hamid.

• 8:11Speaker 02

  Right.

• 8:12Josh Clark?

  And Captain Zahari Ahmad Shah is piloting the plane. First Officer Hamid, this is his last training flight. After this, he'll be fully certified to fly Boeing seven seventy-sevens, which if you're a commercial airline pilot, that's pretty much the peak right there.

• 8:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, and that's important, too, because one of them is a very experienced pilot in his fifties. The other one is a brand-new kind of greenhorn, and that's gonna factor in, for sure.

• 8:36Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 8:37Speaker 02

  So, like I said, it took about fifteen minutes to get to thirty-five thousand feet, and this is when the lead pilot radios that Kuala Lumpur control center, says, we're at thirty-five thousand feet. Then, seven minutes later, he radios again, says, by the way, we're still, and this is not me doing him, I don't know what he sounded like.

• 8:57Josh Clark?

  Uh, Kuala Lumpur.

• 8:59Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 9:00Josh Clark?

  This is Captain Zahari.

• 9:04Josh Clark?

  Yeah, everybody sounds like Chuck Yeager.

• 9:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I guess so.

• 9:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 9:07Speaker 02

  So, he confirmed again that they were at 35,000 feet. And this is where Ed points out that this wasn't some sort of big alarming thing. But what usually happens is you radio in when you leave an altitude, not when you arrive. And you also don't radio in seven minutes later and say, "By the way, we're still at 35,000 feet."

• 9:26Josh Clark?

  Still here.

• 9:26Speaker 02

  Like, once you hit it, you're just sort of there. That's your cruising altitude.

• 9:29Josh Clark?

  Right. So, it wasn't alarming or anything, but it was weird that he made those two radio transmissions. But it was nothing compared to the weirdness that was about to take place.

• 9:39Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 9:42Josh Clark?

  Shortly after that, I think at 1:19 a.m.

• 9:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:47Josh Clark?

  Kuala Lumpur Area Control Center.

• 9:49Speaker 02

  It's like 11 minutes later.

• 9:50Josh Clark?

  Yep. Said, "Hey, MH370, you're about to leave our jurisdiction and enter Ho Chi Minh's jurisdiction. Go ahead and contact Ho Chi Minh Air Traffic Control and let them know you are on with them on this frequency."

• 10:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, if you remember our air traffic control podcast, you're handed off. Like, you don't just stick with one air traffic control when you fly around the world.

• 10:15Josh Clark?

  No.

• 10:16Speaker 02

  You're handed off all along the way whenever you enter the airspace of that whatever district.

• 10:20Josh Clark?

  Precisely. And the way that it's set up is there's not supposed to be any time where you're just flying alone and then you move into the other one. You're going right from one to the other.

• 10:29Speaker 02

  You want a handoff.

• 10:30Josh Clark?

  So, Captain Zahari responded with, "Goodnight, Malaysian 370." Those are the last words anyone heard from Captain Zahari, as far as we know. And that in and of itself was kind of an odd transmission because typically, any airline captain would have replied with the frequency, said the frequency back to confirm that that was the right one. But instead, all he said was, "Goodnight, Malaysian 370." And very shortly after that, two minutes later, MH370 disappeared from the radar. The moment it showed up on Ho Chi Minh Air Traffic Control's radar screens, it just vanished.

• 11:14Speaker 02

  Right, without ever having made contact with them.

• 11:16Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 11:17Speaker 02

  Via radio frequency.

• 11:19Josh Clark?

  This should have like set off alarms with Ho Chi Minh City. And apparently, they did notice. Kuala Lumpur didn't notice. The guy was, they had all this other air traffic to deal with.

• 11:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, and they were out of their zone at this point.

• 11:31Josh Clark?

  Yep, and he'd said, "Good night." And you know, everybody knows, "Good night." You can't go back on that. You have to wait until tomorrow.

• 11:36Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 11:37Josh Clark?

  To make contact again. So, the, the, Kuala Lumpur is, I don't know about blameless in this, but certainly less blameful than, um...

• 11:48Speaker 02

  Ho Chi Minh?

• 11:49Josh Clark?

  Ho Chi Minh. And Ho Chi Minh noticed that they just disappeared from the screen, but it took them a full 18 minutes before they called Kuala Lumpur and said, "Hey, do you know anything about where MH370 is?" Because they kind of vanished from our radar.

• 12:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, I don't know the exact process. In their defense, they were trying to get in touch. It's not like they just said, "Well, we'll see what happens." They got in touch with another pilot who was nearby in that airspace to contact them. And this pilot, uh, this pilot reported there was interference and static. I heard mumbling on the other end, but that's the last we heard and we lost connection.

• 12:25Josh Clark?

  Right, we're not even sure that who, if he was talking to the right people.

• 12:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, so, I mean, they were trying to get in touch, but you're right. I think like, sooner than 18 minutes, they should have said, "By the way, this plane that just left your airspace has disappeared. Like, do you know what's going on?"

• 12:38Josh Clark?

  Right, protocol, international protocol is five minutes.

• 12:41Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 12:42Josh Clark?

  So they waited 13 minutes longer than protocol dictated. And it was so, so much beyond when they should have called, that the controller in Kuala Lumpur actually said on the record like, "Why didn't you call me sooner? How are you just calling me about this?"

• 12:55Speaker 02

  It's like that may as well have been yesterday.

• 12:57Josh Clark?

  Right, it's missing for 18 minutes, which, as we'll get to later on, stuff that came up in the investigation, that was just the first step in a series of missteps.

• 13:07Speaker 02

  Right.

• 13:07Josh Clark?

  That led to the reason why MH370 may never be found.

• 13:12Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, uh, should we take a little break and talk about radar?

• 13:17Josh Clark?

  Radar O'Reilly?

• 13:19Speaker 02

  We'll be back right after this.

• 13:35Josh Clark?

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• 14:35Speaker 04

  First thought is like, wow, how are we going to do all this?

• 14:38Josh Clark?

  Hey, this is Josh and Chuck from Stuff You Should Know.

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• 15:04Josh Clark?

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• 15:28Josh Clark?

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• 15:49Josh Clark?

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• 16:52Josh Clark?

  Radar O'Reilly?

• 16:53Speaker 03

  Not Radar O'Reilly. Radar used by air traffic control.

• 16:58Josh Clark?

  That's different.

• 16:59Speaker 03

  It is different than Radar O'Reilly. This is called Secondary Radar, and it sends out a little beam that, it's very narrow and it sweeps the area. And onboard the aircraft, they have a transponder that detects this beam and sends their own signal back that says, this is how fast we're going, this is where we're headed, and a code that says, and this is who I am.

• 17:21Josh Clark?

  Yeah, maybe even MH370, as simple as that, something like that.

• 17:25Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 17:25Josh Clark?

  That's what's supposed to show up on air traffic control's radar screen. That's so they can see, oh, here's MH370 coming toward DL1722 or whatever.

• 17:35Speaker 03

  At this speed.

• 17:36Josh Clark?

  Right. They have all this information. And it's called Secondary Radar. Primary Radar is what you think, where it's like, you know, it's a blip on a screen that this big, this big radar ray is bouncing off of and receiving information back from, but it's just... You see it's physically there. This has far more information and that's why air traffic control around the world uses.

• 18:00Speaker 02

  Right, and this is very key because just a few seconds after it made that switch over into Ho Chi Minh's airspace, the transponder stopped sending information. That transponder that's supposed to say who you are, where you are, and how fast you're going, just stopped.

• 18:15Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 18:15Speaker 02

  It vanished, and this is when the ball was dropped by, a little bit by Kuala Lumpur not noticing, and definitely by Ho Chi Minh not doing anything immediately in response to Kuala Lumpur.

• 18:28Josh Clark?

  Right. So, primary radar, the radar that you typically think of when you think of radar, that's, there are very few places in the world where you can't be tracked by someone on radar. It's fairly old technology, it's been around for a while, but the places where you can't be tracked can be vast. Over the ocean, in the desert, over extremely mountainous or wooded areas, there are places where you can't really put a radar tower, and there, you can disappear from radar, right? There's, I think what I'm trying to say here is, if you take your plane out of radar range and you turn off your transponder,

• 19:10Josh Clark?

  you can make a modern airliner, as big as a 777, vanish.

• 19:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:17Josh Clark?

  Where people don't know where it is. And that's a really, I think, hallmark point or trait to this, this mystery, that kind of like gets people a little unnerved is, wait a minute, like, this is the 21st century, this happened in 2014.

• 19:30Speaker 02

  Right.

• 19:31Josh Clark?

  What do you mean there's times and situations where an airliner can disappear and people don't know where it is?

• 19:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:37Josh Clark?

  And that was the situation. And as Ho Chi Minh City and Kuala Lumpur are starting to scramble to try to figure out, you know, where this is, apparently they called Malaysian Airlines and said, "Hey, do you know anything about MH370?" Malaysian Airlines said, "Oh yeah, they're flying over Cambodia right now." And they're like, "Where? What are you, how are you seeing this?" After an hour, finally Malaysian Airlines is like, "No, we're just referring to the flight plan."

• 20:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:02Josh Clark?

  "They should be over Cambodia right now. What do you mean you can't find them? What's going on?"

• 20:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, but because of that primary radar, the secondary radar wasn't functioning, like we said, because the transponder was off. But the primary radar did track them for about an hour after those communications dropped. Because of the Malaysian military was able to track it with the primary radar.

• 20:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah, apparently it flew through the primary radar of five different countries. And the only one that bothered to track it was Malaysia's air force.

• 20:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:33Josh Clark?

  But they, they didn't do anything about it. They didn't follow up to see who it was. They didn't scramble any jets to go see if everybody was okay. Or they just knew that there was an unidentified plane flying through Malaysian airspace. And the air force didn't do anything about it. This is embarrassing enough that the air force didn't reveal this

• 20:50Speaker 02

  Right.

• 20:51Josh Clark?

  to anybody for a while, which was a really important point. Because during this time, about an hour, about an hour and a half after the takeoff and an hour after the thing disappeared from transponders. The Malaysian air force was tracking MH370. And it saw that it seemed to have taken a turn.

• 21:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, they know what happened at this point for a little while. It made a sharp turn.

• 21:18Josh Clark?

  That was not part of the planned flight plan.

• 21:20Speaker 02

  No, not at all. This is where things definitely took a metaphorical and literal turn.

• 21:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 21:25Speaker 02

  It headed southwest at that point, crossed over the Malay Peninsula, over Malaysia again, and then parts of Thailand. Then it made a right turn, this is very key, near the island of Penang, just put a pin in that. Then headed west by northwest toward the Andaman Sea. And then at 2:22 AM vanished from radar, from that primary radar as well.

• 21:50Josh Clark?

  Right, so the Malaysian Air Force saw this happen on its radar, didn't tell anybody for a while. The flight plan had it leaving Malaysia, crossing over the Strait of Malacca, into the peninsula where Thailand is located, into China, right? Just away from Malaysia. From what the Malaysian Air Force saw, this thing doubled back on itself and then went in some totally different directions. Almost the opposite direction it was supposed to be going in. And like you said, it dropped off of the radar, and that was the last time anyone saw it on radar. But, that's not the last time we were able to track MH370.

• 22:34Josh Clark?

  And that's thanks to a satellite network that's run by an outfit called Inmarsat.

• 22:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, so Inmarsat, if you've ever been on a plane, and you've enjoyed the benefits of watching movies streaming, or connected to your computer via wifi, that is because of satellite communication. These airplanes are equipped with a system, and it transfers data and all their voice communications via satellite. And some of this data from the plane is automatically shared with these ground tracking stations, which is a really big deal. So, not only are they letting you watch movies and doing all that, but it's sending this automatic data on the reg, basically, from that satellite to these ground stations.

• 23:18Josh Clark?

  Right, so, they think by this time, actually, I believe they know by this time, MH370's navigational systems, entertainment systems, a bunch of its systems have been turned off. The only thing that was still operating was this satellite link, I guess beacon?

• 23:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's called a satellite data unit.

• 23:42Josh Clark?

  Okay, so the satellite data unit, which was capable of contacting and receiving contact from the Inmarsat satellites. Now, at the time, no one knows that this is happening, right? Like, there's no sound being made, there's nobody tracking this. This all came out much later, when Inmarsat realized they were sitting on a bunch of data. But- During different points over the next six, seven hours, the satellite and the satellite data unit talk to each other under a few different circumstances. And because of this, this company, MRSAT, which is located in or headquartered in Great Britain, but literally covers the globe,

• 24:26Josh Clark?

  not just with airline stuff, but maritime thing, which I think where they were originally, they were originally founded to do is to enable maritime communications.

• 24:38Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 24:38Josh Clark?

  Like, you know, satellite phone?

• 24:40Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 24:40Josh Clark?

  You're calling through MRSAT.

• 24:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:42Josh Clark?

  Right? So they've got this whole constellation of satellites. And when MRSAT heard about MH370, they were like, I'll bet our satellites were tracking this thing in some way, shape, or form. And it turns out that they were right.

• 24:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, and there's four, and this is important here. There's four different ways or circumstances where that satellite data unit on the plane is communicating with the satellite in space. Whenever you're making a data transmission or a voice transmission, whenever someone on the ground tries to contact the plane, there's something that happens every hour. If no one has made either one of these contacts for an hour, you get a check-in called a handshake. It's just like, you're still here. Shake hands, buddy.

• 25:27Josh Clark?

  Yeah, just want to make sure you're logged on. It's kind of like when you watch too much Netflix and Netflix sends a message saying, are you still there?

• 25:34Speaker 02

  Are you still here, loser?

• 25:35Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Have you finished all the tub of cookie dough yet?

• 25:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, and then it has a thing that says, go outside.

• 25:41Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 25:41Speaker 02

  Or actually, it doesn't. It says, watch another one.

• 25:43Josh Clark?

  Right, watch some more. Why not have some more cookie dough? It's the same thing. It's sending a message to the plane's satellite data unit, saying like, are you still logged on?

• 25:51Speaker 02

  Right. And then the final thing, and this is super key, is whenever the, whenever you first log on to the satellite system, that thing on the plane, whenever it kind of checks in and links up, that is very key because what can also happen, if that thing goes down and then reboots, it treats that as a new login. So it'll make another ping, basically, that it's logged on to the system.

• 26:14Josh Clark?

  Right. So MRSAT goes back and looks at their data and says, okay, so here's a couple of things. Right now, this is, I think, within the first, like, few days. Everybody is looking in the South China Sea for MH370 because that was what was along its flight plan. The Malaysian Air Force hasn't revealed yet that it tracked MH370 turn around and go the opposite direction of what its flight plan was, where it was scheduled to carry it.

• 26:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:44Josh Clark?

  And Inmarsat is now saying, wait a minute, this thing didn't crash like an hour and a half after takeoff. This thing turned around and flew into the Indian Ocean for six or seven more hours because our satellite was talking to the, to the plane.

• 26:59Speaker 02

  At various points.

• 27:00Josh Clark?

  During this, during this time.

• 27:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, and we should point out too, after Air France Flight 447, which crashed in 2009, this is when Inmarsat really kind of beefed up their system. They added more ground stations and they added a lot more capability to add storage for this data because they know that this can really help out in situations like this.

• 27:22Josh Clark?

  That was a big one too. Do you remember that one?

• 27:24Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 27:25Josh Clark?

  So that one was the first one that really opened people's eyes where it was like, wait a minute, when we're flying over the ocean, like no one knows where we are?

• 27:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:33Josh Clark?

  And they were like, no, actually not really. And they, I think that's why Inmarsat was like, we gotta build more ground stations. We gotta bulk up our data, data storage, all that stuff. We gotta add more satellite capabilities. And in doing so, they made it so that you could be tracked when you're over the ocean, even if you didn't want to be, as seems to have been the case with MH370. So it was a huge difference between 2004, was it 2004 or 2009?

• 28:01Speaker 02

  2009.

• 28:02Josh Clark?

  2009 and 2014, just five years.

• 28:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:05Josh Clark?

  The thing proved itself. These upgrades they made were substantial. But Air France Flight 447, in and of itself, another Langwais gem that just puts you in the seat of this terrifying plane crash. That one in particular, they knew where the plane was and it still took two years to recover the black boxes and figure out what went wrong.

• 28:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:25Josh Clark?

  Which is terrifying and if you know what happened to that one, it basically the controls got ripped away from the pilot and it just went right into the ocean.

• 28:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:34Josh Clark?

  And they're still down there, apparently. There was a big debate over what to do with these people. When they started raising them, they were perfectly preserved because they're so deep in the pressure and the anaerobic situation.

• 28:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:47Josh Clark?

  Yeah, the temperature just kept them perfectly preserved, but as they were raised up into warmer waters, the decomposition over two years just happened immediately.

• 28:56Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 28:56Josh Clark?

  So they, I think the French government said, they have to stay there. It's now a memorial. Do not try to raise anybody. And they're still down there strapped to their seats.

• 29:05Speaker 02

  Jeez.

• 29:06Josh Clark?

  Which, when you, just do not think about that the next time you get on a plane.

• 29:10Speaker 02

  I know.

• 29:11Josh Clark?

  It's a terrible thing to think about. I can tell you firsthand.

• 29:13Speaker 02

  Yeah. You've gotten so much better over the years, but I'm sure this is gonna be a setback.

• 29:20Josh Clark?

  No, I'm hanging in there.

• 29:22Speaker 02

  All right, good.

• 29:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah. If it happens, it happens. Like, that's the way I, I kind of view it.

• 29:26Speaker 02

  Well, there's certainly nothing you can do about it.

• 29:27Josh Clark?

  This isn't something that they, that you guys are gonna play in my memorial, my funeral, my last words, but if you're, if, if I go down in a plane crash, my number was up.

• 29:37Speaker 02

  Right. And everyone else would be like, that's so weird. He always talked about it.

• 29:41Josh Clark?

  Yeah, right.

• 29:42Speaker 02

  This was his worst fear.

• 29:42Josh Clark?

  He was such a freak. There was, actually, I had a tweet once that said, if I ever go down in a plane crash, I'm gonna shout, I wish I would've spent more time at work.

• 29:54Speaker 02

  Well, I'm not sure I get that.

• 29:55Josh Clark?

  Well, you know, it's like no one ever says in their deathbed, they wish they'd spent more time at work. Well.

• 30:00Speaker 02

  I got it. An ironic funny on the way down.

• 30:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I'll make people laugh.

• 30:03Speaker 02

  Good for you.

• 30:04Josh Clark?

  Give them their last laugh.

• 30:05Speaker 02

  So, uh, this, uh, where they're getting all this information was from a ground station in Perth, Australia, a place we have been to.

• 30:13Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 30:14Speaker 02

  It was quite lovely.

• 30:15Josh Clark?

  Lovely town.

• 30:16Speaker 02

  That's right. It was great. Uh, anyone ever tells you, don't go to Western Australia, you tell them, that's BS. Cause Josh and Chuck said it's great.

• 30:25Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 30:27Josh Clark?

  Very stupid. That's what BS stands for.

• 30:30Speaker 02

  So, they had a lot of data, like we said, because they had beefed up their storage capabilities over the past five or six years.

• 30:37Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 30:37Speaker 02

  And they have a couple of types of data. Something called burst timing offset and burst frequency offset. BTO is, it measures how long that a signal takes to reach a satellite. You know the speed of the signal, so you know exactly how far that plane is from the satellite at that exact moment. It's very easy to kind of understand.

• 31:00Josh Clark?

  Right. First taken into account, MRSAT has, oh, here was a ping, here was a ping, here was a ping, here was a ping.

• 31:08Speaker 02

  Right.

• 31:09Josh Clark?

  Now they're digging in to analyze these pings and just the quality of them, the timing of them, all this stuff, because they're like, I'm pretty sure we can figure out where this plane was and maybe where it went if we really drill in and do some incredible math and figure out just kind of the nature of these pings.

• 31:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, and what they're trying to do here is to narrow it down into an arc instead of a circle.

• 31:35Josh Clark?

  Well, I think that's just naturally what happened. Oh, yeah, you're right. You're right. I'm sorry.

• 31:38Speaker 02

  Because Ed explained it in a very easy way. If you tell someone, "Hey, I'm 100 miles from Atlanta", then you draw a circle around Atlanta that's 100 miles, and you could be at any point along that circle.

• 31:52Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 31:53Speaker 02

  But if that phone call was from Athens, which is not 100 miles from Atlanta, but it's, you know.

• 31:59Josh Clark?

  It's not too far.

• 32:00Speaker 02

  65 or so.

• 32:01Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 32:01Speaker 02

  But if you said you're from some other city in Georgia, then you would know where you were, and if you knew how fast they were going, then you could really, it doesn't become a circle, then it becomes an arc.

• 32:11Josh Clark?

  Right. The number of points on that circle where that person could possibly be.

• 32:16Speaker 02

  Yes, is smaller.

• 32:17Josh Clark?

  Yeah, much smaller, maybe by half, maybe by two-thirds. And yet, so the circle becomes an arc. And because of that burst timing offset, they could establish those arcs, and there were seven of them, I believe.

• 32:32Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 32:32Josh Clark?

  No, they could establish the circles.

• 32:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, the circle.

• 32:36Josh Clark?

  Because of the other one.

• 32:37Speaker 02

  The BFO.

• 32:38Josh Clark?

  The BFO, the burst frequency offset. Those are more complicated. They involve the Doppler effect.

• 32:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:46Josh Clark?

  And basically, tell the satellite, or the satellite data tells MRSAT, "We're going in this direction." Because the Doppler effect when an ambulance sirens coming to you. Er, ee, er, ee. And then it passes you. Er, ee. Right, it changes in pitch because of the relative distance and the direction that it's traveling. They could tell from this ping, the satellite ping, not even a data transmission, just a ping, which direction the thing was headed and roughly how fast it was going. And so they were able to create seven arcs. And after the seven arcs, the seventh arc was created by a ping that took place at 8:19 a.m.

• 33:31Josh Clark?

  And after that, there was another, there was a log on request, a handshake request that the SDU failed to respond to. And they think that in between 8:19 a.m. and that last log on request at 9:15 a.m. The plane finally crashed, probably from running out of fuel.

• 33:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, and they think that 8:19 was from one of those reboots that I was talking about when that system comes back on.

• 33:59Josh Clark?

  Which will come into.

• 34:00Speaker 02

  After power failure.

• 34:02Josh Clark?

  Right, which will come into play pretty soon.

• 34:05Speaker 02

  All right, so let's take another break here.

• 34:07Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 34:08Speaker 02

  All right, we'll be back with the leading theory right after this.

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• 36:49Speaker 03

  All right. So the leading theory, and this is...

• 36:55Speaker 03

  The more I read this, the more it was Occam's razor kind of staring you in the face.

• 36:59Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 37:00Speaker 03

  Because we'll get into some of the kind of cockamamie theories, and there are many of them. But this one is the simplest, and it's probably what happened.

• 37:10Josh Clark?

  It's the one I believe.

• 37:11Speaker 03

  It is that someone on board...

• 37:15Speaker 02

  And should we, should we tease this out?

• 37:18Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 37:19Speaker 02

  Okay. Someone on board took control of the plane, disabled that transponder, and then started flying in the other direction, back across Malaysia, then put it on autopilot until it ran out of gas and it crashed into the ocean.

• 37:34Josh Clark?

  Yeah, about the Southern Indian Ocean, which is where the Southern Seventh Arc was.

• 37:38Speaker 02

  Right. One of the reasons this makes a lot of sense is because that transponder going off at the exact moment when the plane transitioned from Kuala Lumpur's airspace into Ho Chi Minh's, it would be an incredible coincidence if that was just an incredible coincidence.

• 37:54Josh Clark?

  That in and of itself says that some, that there was a human factor involved.

• 38:00Speaker 02

  Like someone knew what that meant.

• 38:01Josh Clark?

  Right, exactly. So somebody who knew how to do that, when to do it, and the timing of it was just too spectacular for it to have been an accident.

• 38:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, because what they probably counted on is exactly what happened, was there was a period of time, they might have figured five minutes, which is what you said the standard was.

• 38:21Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 38:21Speaker 02

  But what they got was 18 minutes

• 38:23Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 38:23Speaker 02

  of confusion.

• 38:24Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 38:25Speaker 02

  I mean, they, it tripled what they were counting on.

• 38:28Josh Clark?

  Exactly.

• 38:28Speaker 02

  Best-case scenario.

• 38:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah. The other thing was that the, the turn that the MH370 made was so abrupt that an autopilot wouldn't have done that.

• 38:44Speaker 02

  No.

• 38:44Josh Clark?

  If you put a, if you put a plane on autopilot and have it, and it turns, it would make a much wider turn. This is a hard kind of backtracking turn that it made to its left to the southwest from the north. You're traveling the northeast, the turn was to the southwest. So just the turn alone, which came after the transponder was turned off, shows that it was under human control. It was a person piloting the plane, making it turn.

• 39:15Speaker 02

  Right. And that rules out things like mechanical failure or fire.

• 39:20Josh Clark?

  Everything from meteor strike to squall line

• 39:23Speaker 02

  Pretty much.

• 39:23Josh Clark?

  to any kind of weather. It was, all that was, is ruled out by the fact that this turn took place clearly under human control.

• 39:31Speaker 02

  Right. That also rules out hypoxia. If you remember the, the Very eerie crash with golfer Payne Stewart on that private jet.

• 39:41Josh Clark?

  I don't really remember that. Can you kind of refresh my memory?

• 39:44Speaker 02

  That was in 1999 and I think the postmortem on that one was that this private plane, essentially everyone on board died of hypoxia, including the pilots. And it flew for a number of hours.

• 39:59Josh Clark?

  Oh, really?

• 39:59Speaker 02

  On autopilot. It was a ghost plane, essentially.

• 40:02Josh Clark?

  Wow.

• 40:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:04Josh Clark?

  So they don't think that hypoxia affected whoever was in control of the plane?

• 40:09Speaker 02

  Because it made that turn.

• 40:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it was a very deliberate turn and then it followed a more, an even more deliberate flight pattern after that. This was not random movements of a plane where somebody who was suffering from hypoxia but still alive would make. These weren't confused decisions. They were, they were difficult to understand decisions, but they weren't random and confused behavior. They were deliberate.

• 40:34Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 40:34Josh Clark?

  So hypo, one of the pilots or both of the pilots suffering from hypoxia is ruled out. And the fact that they were deliberate turns also rules out the idea that both of the pilots were dead.

• 40:47Speaker 02

  Right.

• 40:47Josh Clark?

  That again, it was just the plane flying itself.

• 40:50Speaker 02

  Right. These log on requests by that STU unit on the plane, it was another big clue there because there was a log on request made at 1:43 a.m. and that basically says that the power on the plane's electrical system was shut off for a period of time in between that transponder disappearing and that time of that log on request.

• 41:14Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 41:14Speaker 02

  So someone like purposely disabled, purposefully disabled these systems.

• 41:18Josh Clark?

  Right. So 1:43 a.m. would have been about an hour after takeoff, just over an hour after takeoff. After the transponder was turned off with perfect timing between Kuala Lumpur and Ho Chi Minh, but also before the turn.

• 41:39Josh Clark?

  That the Malaysian Air Force tracked.

• 41:42Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 41:43Josh Clark?

  Or at about the same time.

• 41:44Speaker 02

  Right. The other thing that could have happened when these, when the transponder and the SDU were shut off, it could have depressurized the plane. If that happens, then hypoxia is the fear. Those oxygen masks are going to drop down, but you only get about 10 minutes of oxygen as a passenger. The cockpit is going to have a lot more oxygen than that. But we do know for a fact from that log on request that the systems were off for an hour. So even if that were the case, then the masks run out 10 minutes later and the people die of hypoxia, the passengers shortly after that.

• 42:22Josh Clark?

  The thing is, is they believe that not only was MH370 still at cruising altitude, it probably actually climbed to 40,000, maybe a little over 40,000 feet. It's basically the maximum that a 777 could stay aloft at.

• 42:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:39Josh Clark?

  So the, the drop down masks would have been totally useless to begin with. There's not enough oxygen coming through them to offset that kind of height in the depressurized cabin. That's meant for a much lower altitude. And the reason why, I found it very disconcerting to learn that there's only like 10 or 15 minutes worth of oxygen coming out of those masks.

• 42:59Speaker 02

  I mean, is the idea there that a plane crash doesn't take longer than that?

• 43:02Josh Clark?

  The, the, the idea is that it's used for an emergency transition down to a much lower altitude where you could breathe without a pressurized cabin.

• 43:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 43:11Josh Clark?

  And that that takes less than 10 or 15 minutes. You can do that much more quickly, a few minutes.

• 43:15Speaker 02

  So basically you're going to start flying with your own oxygen tank?

• 43:18Josh Clark?

  Basically.

• 43:18Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 43:19Josh Clark?

  I'll be like, try to take it away from me, TSA. You can't do it.

• 43:22Speaker 02

  Uh, here's another thing is that, that SDU log on request, um, at the end, it's, it suggests that it was turned back on. And the thinking here is that whoever did this, it probably didn't care at that point because it was too late because everyone on board was dead.

• 43:41Josh Clark?

  Right, so the idea behind all this is that the power was shut off and they know that the power was turned off because the log on request came at a certain point, right? So that means that the power had been shut off and it was coming back on and they think that it was to depressurize the cabin and be a very easy way to depressurize the cabin, just turn off all of the power.

• 44:04Speaker 02

  And then maybe whoever did this, and we'll get to that, was like, I want to get back down to normal cruising altitude here so I can fly this plane without wearing a mask maybe or just in a less stressful environment.

• 44:19Josh Clark?

  Right, exactly, maybe go get a bite to eat or something like that. There's a lot that can be done in a pressurized cabin.

• 44:25Speaker 02

  And then there was that final arc, the seventh one, that log on request was probably the plane running out of fuel and this I thought was super interesting. So the plane runs out of fuel, those engines shut down, but there's still air pumping through those turbines and that's going to spin the turbine and that's certainly not going to be enough to fly your plane, but it could be enough to act as a generator and power up the auxiliary power system.

• 44:51Josh Clark?

  That's right.

• 44:52Speaker 02

  Super, super interesting.

• 44:53Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so in the running out of fuel, electrical goes down, those air ram jets come on and the auxiliary power system comes on, the thing logs back on.

• 45:04Speaker 02

  Just enough to get that going again.

• 45:05Josh Clark?

  Right, exactly. So let's just, before we stop for this episode, Chuck, let's just kind of recap what MMSA has been able to figure out from seven pings between its satellite and the satellite data unit. Seven pings. They dove into these things so deeply that they were able to figure out that the flight did not crash, that there was probably a hypoxia event among the cabin, that it was deliberate and that the plane kept flying, not that it did not crash, but that it kept flying for at least six more hours and finally did probably crash in the Southern Indian Ocean, all from seven little pings between the plane and the satellite.

• 45:49Speaker 02

  That's right. And then the final little clue here from the satellite is the ELT, emergency transmitter.

• 45:56Speaker 02

  Failed. It's emergency location transmitter. And that's linked to a different satellite system. And one person, if you're conspiracy minded, might say, well, you know what? This means it didn't actually crash into the ocean. But these ELTs apparently have a pretty low success rate. And when you dive into the ocean with no power, it's at tremendous speed. And that would have been enough probably to destroy the plane instantly and this ELT.

• 46:24Josh Clark?

  There's, there's another, so there's four, I think, on the plane? Did you say that?

• 46:28Speaker 02

  I didn't say four.

• 46:29Josh Clark?

  So I believe there is four on the plane. One of them, like, they can be disabled.

• 46:33Speaker 02

  It's not a black box, by the way.

• 46:35Josh Clark?

  No, no, no. This is just a beacon that's, it pings a satellite, but isn't even, it's a different satellite from Inmarsat. So it's like an extra failsafe. And this means that they, all four of them failed, which, again, some people think that's, that's, that's evidence right there that this thing didn't actually crash. We'll talk about that in the next episode, about that.

• 46:55Speaker 02

  All right. I think we don't do listener mails on a part one.

• 46:58Josh Clark?

  No.

• 46:59Speaker 02

  So just strap in and I hope you can hold off from researching for a couple of days on this one.

• 47:04Josh Clark?

  Maybe have a Bloody Mary while you're waiting.

• 47:06Speaker 02

  Agreed.

• 47:06Josh Clark?

  Well, anyway, in the meantime, if you want to get in touch with us, you can go on to stuffyoushouldknow.com and check out our social links. And you can also send us an email to [email protected].

• 47:20Speaker 00

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 47:35Josh Clark?

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