Selects: The Disappearance of Flight MH370, Part II

In the absence of an official explanation of why flight MH 370 disappeared in 2014, conjecture and conspiracy theories have filled the vacuum. Find out the current state of things in this classic episode. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Josh Clark?

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  Hosted by Andrew Stratton, these perspectives highlight that life is more than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Living with a rare disease can be challenging, but it does not define the Voices of Vivgard. In these episodes, they share their stories, from diagnosis to working with their care team on their treatment plan. Listen to Voices of Vivgard on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody, it's me, Josh, and I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The disappearance of MH370 is one of the biggest mysteries in aviation history. In the second part, we talk about the investigation into the disappearance and the theories of what might have happened. Hope you enjoy.

• 1:30Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 1:39Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and this is part two of two about MH370, the most mysterious disappearance of any airliner in the history of modern aviation.

• 1:54Speaker 02

  That's right. We won't do a full recap, but where we're picking up now is-

• 1:58Josh Clark?

  No, no, wait.

• 1:59Speaker 02

  You want to do a full recap, probably?

• 2:00Josh Clark?

  Twenty minutes easy.

• 2:02Speaker 02

  We are at the point where the plane has crashed, and we're going to pick up with post-crash investigations, which, like many airline crash investigations, were bungled in a lot of ways.

• 2:19Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah. So Ed points out that, like, kind of oddly, that-

• 2:26Josh Clark?

  There are a lot of crash investigations you can point to that, you know, kind of deferred toward the airline manufacturer when they were at fault, or tried to do some cover up, or was not great. None of them, from what I can tell, compared to this one.

• 2:41Speaker 02

  No, agreed.

• 2:41Josh Clark?

  This was very, very not good. And the seems to be the roundly, the roundly accepted reason for the, the whole thing being bungled, was that Malaysia at the time was a dictatorship, and you could disappear if you weren't doing your job very well, or if you offended the, the people in charge. And a crash of a Malaysian's airline flight, in particular, was kind of a dicey thing to talk about, because Malaysian Airlines was the pride of Malaysia. And it was a, at the time, a government, largely government-owned and controlled airline, a state-owned airline.

• 3:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:19Josh Clark?

  It was the, the Malaysia was the majority owner of stock, and it was publicly traded, Malaysia Airlines was, but they owned the majority of it, they called the shots.

• 3:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:27Josh Clark?

  And after 2014, which proved to be a terrible year by any airline standards, because not only was MH370, did it vanish, MH17 was shot down over Ukraine.

• 3:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:39Josh Clark?

  The same year, just less than six months later. The Malaysian government set about buying back all of the shares that were outstanding of Malaysian Airlines.

• 3:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:49Josh Clark?

  And took it off of public listing, made it a fully state-owned company.

• 3:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, so they certainly didn't want the, the bad press that was sure to follow.

• 3:58Josh Clark?

  No. So, there's a lot of people who say the Malaysian government covered this up, not because they did anything nefarious, but because they were worried that something embarrassing was going to come out. And this is not a government that could handle embarrassment very well.

• 4:12Speaker 02

  Right.

• 4:12Josh Clark?

  And so they literally obfuscated the, the, the investigation into what happened to MH370.

• 4:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, so the first problem here is, we know now that this plane crashed in the South Indian Ocean, and it took a week before they were looking in the South Indian Ocean.

• 4:32Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 4:32Speaker 02

  So, the first 24 hours was in the South China Sea, between Malaysia and Vietnam. They ended up hooking up and creating a joint-agency coordination center, or actually, Australia is who created that. And they led the search efforts, because it was close to them. And they found no trace, even after they did all this ocean floor mapping. Searching, you know, they had that seventh arc pegged, searched all along there.

• 5:01Josh Clark?

  120,000 square miles.

• 5:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, which is, you know, even if you find that seventh arc and you know it's somewhere in here, that's still a vast, vast area. And this thing is on the bottom of the ocean at this point.

• 5:12Josh Clark?

  And we should say, by this time, Australia has stepped up and been like, well, this happened not too far from us, I guess, we're the closest major country.

• 5:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:22Josh Clark?

  Certainly, Western democracy in this, in this area, we'll, we'll head this up. Malaysia will help you out. And they footed a lot of the bill, which was pretty cool.

• 5:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, 160 million bucks.

• 5:34Josh Clark?

  Yeah, from what I understand.

• 5:35Speaker 02

  That's what Australia spent.

• 5:36Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and I think it was the most, and still is, the most expensive search in aviation history.

• 5:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:43Josh Clark?

  Which is kind of surprising, you'd think that more would have been spent, but I think they usually find them sooner than this. This was not found.

• 5:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:50Josh Clark?

  And they searched for two solid years for this thing. And just on that seventh arc.

• 5:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:56Josh Clark?

  There's a lot of people who at the time were like, no, you know how it forms a circle? Well, there's a northern arc and a southern arc. And some people said, no, northern arc, somewhere it's in Kazakhstan. The southern arc was in the Indian Ocean. Most people said, it's probably the southern arc.

• 6:10Speaker 02

  Right.

• 6:11Josh Clark?

  So that's where they searched, and they still didn't find it.

• 6:12Speaker 02

  Yeah. And it took so long to even get there. By that point, there were a lot of things, if you had that first 24 hours, it's sort of like a murder investigation. That first day is so key.

• 6:25Josh Clark?

  The first 48?

• 6:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, is it 48? I'm saying, I'm making, I'm narrowing it down to 24, buddy.

• 6:30Josh Clark?

  Yeah, okay.

• 6:31Speaker 02

  So Malaysia then heads up what's called a joint investigation team. The US was involved, China, Britain, and France.

• 6:38Josh Clark?

  This was the one that was meant to follow the protocols of just the internationally agreed upon.

• 6:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:46Josh Clark?

  Accident investigation to make air travel safer for everybody. And Malaysia did not help out very well.

• 6:52Speaker 02

  No, so they issued, the Malaysian Ministry of Transport issued a preliminary and a final report. The preliminary report Ed describes as more or less a reprint of the Boeing 777 manual. Just like, well, here, here was the plane.

• 7:08Josh Clark?

  Which I think is kind of standard to have technical information, but this is-

• 7:12Speaker 02

  But not just the whole report.

• 7:13Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 7:13Speaker 02

  And then the second one, the, the final report, basically pointed out where air traffic control failed along the way.

• 7:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and I saw in that Langwaisch article that, that they were politically speaking the easiest targets. They were not going to, there wasn't going to be any backlash by kind of taking them to task, especially taking the Ho Chi Minh air traffic controllers to task too.

• 7:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:39Josh Clark?

  They should have been taking it task. Eighteen minutes is a very long time to let an airliner in your jurisdiction just be disappeared.

• 7:46Speaker 02

  Right.

• 7:47Josh Clark?

  So that, that was a big problem, but the Malaysian Air Force also should have been criticized for covering up the fact that they hadn't done anything for an hour that they were tracking this, this unidentified airplane in their airspace.

• 8:03Speaker 02

  Right.

• 8:03Josh Clark?

  And let an entire search, multinational search be mounted in the South China Sea-

• 8:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, in the wrong place.

• 8:10Josh Clark?

  For like a couple of days before they were like, um, actually-

• 8:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:13Josh Clark?

  We, we think they went this way.

• 8:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:15Josh Clark?

  You know?

• 8:16Speaker 02

  Cause it takes a long time to even assemble that kind of search squad.

• 8:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 8:19Speaker 02

  So I think if they searched for two days and didn't get started till a week later, that's like four days just to like move.

• 8:27Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 8:27Speaker 02

  You know?

• 8:27Josh Clark?

  And so in that time, an oil slick, a debris field-

• 8:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:31Josh Clark?

  All that stuff can just vanish.

• 8:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:33Josh Clark?

  And an airliner really can in an area the size of the Indian Ocean, especially even when you know where to look-

• 8:40Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 8:41Josh Clark?

  Can just disappear.

• 8:42Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 8:42Josh Clark?

  And that is why a lot of people say, we will probably never find-

• 8:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:47Josh Clark?

  MH370. There's, there's another couple of reasons why too.

• 8:51Speaker 02

  Are we gonna get to this?

• 8:51Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 8:52Speaker 02

  Okay. The police in Malaysia, and this bore a little bit of fruit. They conducted some background checks on everyone on the plane. And they did find two passengers who were Iranians that had stolen passports. Apparently, they were just seeking political asylum, though. Although, that does factor into some of the conspiracy theories

• 9:12Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 9:13Speaker 02

  that pop up later on.

• 9:13Josh Clark?

  Yeah, anytime you have two Iranian nationals traveling under fake passports on a plane that disappeared, some people are going to say,

• 9:20Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 9:21Josh Clark?

  "I don't know about that one."

• 9:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. And then, here was the one thing about their final report from the police. Is, they described Captain Zahari, basically saying, like, "This guy was great. Nothing wrong. He was a great pilot.

• 9:39Speaker 02

  Nothing to alarm anybody here about Captain Zahari."

• 9:42Josh Clark?

  Nothing to see here.

• 9:43Speaker 02

  And that's in the final report. And we'll get to him, but that does not appear to be true.

• 9:49Josh Clark?

  No.

• 9:51Josh Clark?

  So, after the search, after two years and $160 million and 120,000... Sorry, 120,000 square kilometers. I think it said square miles. Still a lot of square miles searched. The Australians, the Malaysians, and the Chinese that made up the tripartite commission that were kind of running the show in this search, said officially, "We don't know what happened. All we can say is that we believe MH370 ended somewhere in the southern Indian Ocean." That's the official stance on what happened to a vanished airliner.

• 10:33Josh Clark?

  That they said, "We don't know, and that's as far as we're gonna go."

• 10:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I do want to point out quickly, there was one private agency called in, or I think volunteered, called Ocean Infinity.

• 10:44Josh Clark?

  From Texas.

• 10:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, they performed a search, basically, pro bono. If they find the plane, they get paid. But, just as a... Sort of a nerd in this way, I looked into that company. They're awesome.

• 10:56Josh Clark?

  Yeah, they are.

• 10:57Speaker 02

  It's really cool, man. They are, uh, they call it seabed intelligence. And it's, it's like James Cameron style stuff.

• 11:04Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 11:04Speaker 02

  The, the, the resources and the, the toys that these dudes play with.

• 11:09Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 11:09Speaker 02

  It's pretty, pretty cool.

• 11:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah, they'll have a mothership. Well, at least this is what they did for the MH370 search. They have a mothership.

• 11:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:16Josh Clark?

  And I think the mothership goes through and maps the underwater terrain in 3D first. And then that forms their search area. They release some autonomous drones.

• 11:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, they look like torpedoes.

• 11:28Josh Clark?

  Yep, but they're drones that can be controlled from this mothership. And they go through and scan using sonar.

• 11:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:33Josh Clark?

  They can detail the seabed.

• 11:35Speaker 02

  It's so cool.

• 11:36Josh Clark?

  And.

• 11:36Speaker 02

  I R S photography, it's like really cool stuff.

• 11:39Josh Clark?

  It works really well. Ocean, Ocean Infinity has a great track record in finding stuff.

• 11:44Speaker 02

  They're who I would call.

• 11:45Josh Clark?

  They, they found like a missing submarine from Argentina. They found a bunch of other things. I would call them too, by the way.

• 11:50Speaker 02

  We should get them on the, uh, we should hire them out for the Tybee Island nuke.

• 11:54Josh Clark?

  We totally should. I'm surprised they haven't just done that for fun.

• 11:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:58Josh Clark?

  As a matter of fact, I think they should.

• 11:59Speaker 02

  Solve a mystery.

• 12:00Josh Clark?

  Yeah, of the broken arrow.

• 12:01Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 12:02Josh Clark?

  Or the empty quiver.

• 12:03Speaker 02

  And they're like, we spent how many multi-millions of dollars just to say we solved that mystery?

• 12:08Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 12:08Speaker 02

  Wait, is someone gonna pay us for this?

• 12:10Josh Clark?

  No, no, they're from Texas, so anytime they find something, they don't think about that. Instead, they just shoot their six shooters into the air.

• 12:17Speaker 02

  That's right. Forgot about that.

• 12:18Josh Clark?

  Right, so that's fine. That's a good enough for them. It's pay enough. But Ocean Infinity, yeah, they, they know what they're doing and they still couldn't find MH370. There were some things that were found in the search. Number one, this was uncharted, um, territory. And now huge swaths of it are now mapped. They found an underwater volcano, an enormous one that they had no idea existed before. They found a couple of shipwrecks from the 19th century that had just been totally lost.

• 12:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:45Josh Clark?

  But they still found no trace whatsoever of MH370 despite two major searches. And an official finally, uh, an official final report from Australia saying, we don't know, we will probably never know. All we can say is that the flight ended almost certainly in the southern Indian Ocean.

• 13:05Speaker 02

  That's right, and, um, we should shout out the independent group. Uh, this is an online group of enthusiasts.

• 13:13Josh Clark?

  Internet sleuths.

• 13:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, who got together to try and figure this out and. It even pointed out like, you know, you hear internet sleuths and you're like, come on, get off the tinfoil hat. But it turns out that these people, a lot of them were engineers. They worked in aviation formerly or currently. And they were really interested in trying to help. And I think ended up helping in a lot of ways.

• 13:36Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and even beyond like tinfoil hats, internet sleuths can, they've done things like identified John Does and Jane Does.

• 13:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure.

• 13:44Josh Clark?

  They've done a lot of cool stuff, but typically they're not qualified

• 13:48Speaker 02

  Right.

• 13:49Josh Clark?

  in what they're doing. They're just very interested and very dogged in their pursuits, right? With the Independent Group, these are actual like people with PhDs in electrical engineering and secondary radar and satellites and the stuff that they're doing, they just all happen to come together bound by their common interest in the search for this plane. And if you go and read, I will give you a thousand dollars if you can make it through one of their blog posts.

• 14:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:17Josh Clark?

  It's so dense and so scientific.

• 14:19Speaker 02

  I looked at one of them.

• 14:20Josh Clark?

  But they're so legitimate that the Australian government, when they wrapped up their search or maybe at some point during it, they actually acknowledged and thanked the Independent Group for their work because they were relying on it to some extent.

• 14:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I'm sure like no one ever in this kind of thing or search and rescue, no one ever wants this to happen. But this is their chance to really get involved and try and do some good.

• 14:43Josh Clark?

  Who, the Independent Group?

• 14:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:45Josh Clark?

  Sure. They also agitated for more transparency in this stuff.

• 14:50Speaker 02

  And they got it.

• 14:51Josh Clark?

  And I think they got their hands, well, they went in a roundabout way. They made friends with some of the family of MH370, just by the families hearing about what they were doing. And from one of the families, they got the raw MRSAT data. At a time when MRSAT was saying, this actually belongs to Malaysia or Malaysian Airlines, we can't release it. Malaysia was saying, well, no, MRSAT has to release it. They just went around both and got the raw data and were able to really do some much better calculations than they had before with the raw MRSAT data.

• 15:23Speaker 02

  All right, so let's take a break and we'll go start up our own internet sleuthing concern, get that ramped up.

• 15:30Josh Clark?

  What are we going to get to the bottom of? Puppies?

• 15:34Speaker 02

  Sure. Why are they so darn cute?

• 15:36Josh Clark?

  That sounds like us.

• 15:37Speaker 02

  All right, we'll be right back.

• 15:52Josh Clark?

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• 19:09Josh Clark?

  Okay Chuck, so.

• 19:11Speaker 02

  Are we at wreckage?

• 19:12Josh Clark?

  Not quite yet. I want to talk about the, uh, yeah, we are at wreckage. I think that'll tie in nicely to what I was gonna say.

• 19:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, because this thing disappeared, that is not to say there were no traces, because we have pieces of this plane now.

• 19:27Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 19:28Speaker 02

  There are people, sort of like these internet sleuths, that are captured by a story such that they will spend a large portion of their life trying to solve it and looking for stuff.

• 19:40Josh Clark?

  And savings.

• 19:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure, a lot of money.

• 19:43Josh Clark?

  I think, I think by people, you really mean person.

• 19:46Speaker 02

  No, there are a lot of other people. There was one man called Zahid Raza, who searched for years and he was murdered in Madagascar.

• 19:54Josh Clark?

  So he was, his job was as the Malaysian council to Madagascar. He's like the ambassador to Madagascar.

• 20:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, and the conspiracy-minded will say, no, this guy's finding stuff. And they, they took him out.

• 20:08Josh Clark?

  So there was a dude who did leave his life in, I think, Seattle. And moved, well, actually just started moving around the world, which he did normally anyway, but his name was Blaine Gibson.

• 20:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's an attorney.

• 20:20Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he factors big into that William Langweish article, he talks about him a lot. But he just became moved by this and decided that he was gonna go start finding wreckage, and he has.

• 20:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:31Josh Clark?

  I think a third of the debris found from MH370 has been personally found by Blaine Gibson, just globe trotting, basically.

• 20:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, amazing.

• 20:42Josh Clark?

  But he figured out if it was the southern Indian Ocean, then this wreckage is probably gonna start to show up somewhere around the southern, the southwest coast of Africa. South Africa, Mozambique.

• 20:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:58Josh Clark?

  Madagascar.

• 20:59Speaker 02

  Right.

• 21:00Josh Clark?

  And he was right, and the first piece turned up in 2015, it was a six-foot piece of an airplane.

• 21:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:07Josh Clark?

  And it washed up.

• 21:08Speaker 02

  Can you imagine what he felt like?

• 21:09Josh Clark?

  No, I can't, as a matter of fact. I mean, looking for this and then finding it.

• 21:14Speaker 02

  It's like searching for a needle in a haystack.

• 21:16Josh Clark?

  But it was found on Reunion Island off of Madagascar, I think it's under the control of Mauritius, and this was a really big deal for a couple of reasons. One, it showed incontrovertibly that the southern arc was correct, that it hadn't flown north into Kazakhstan, that the flight had ended the Indian Ocean.

• 21:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, it showed that it crashed.

• 21:43Josh Clark?

  That's a big one, it showed that it had broken up, like it wasn't like a fire or anything like that, it had come apart.

• 21:49Speaker 02

  Well, and it wasn't secretly landed somewhere, because some of those conspiracies get pretty out there.

• 21:54Josh Clark?

  Right, but the other effect that this had was that it devastated the MH370 families who had been holding out hope.

• 22:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:02Josh Clark?

  Because it was disappeared, this airliner vanished, and people were saying, no, it actually is in the Air Base Diego Garcia, under US control. No, it's under Russian control in Kazakhstan.

• 22:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:14Josh Clark?

  It's somewhere, our people are somewhere, maybe, maybe there's this hope. This dashed those hopes.

• 22:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:20Josh Clark?

  And it came a full, more than a year after the plane disappeared. So they had been like really holding on to this hope to a desperate degree for more than a year, and then it was dashed.

• 22:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:32Josh Clark?

  So it was a big deal when it was found, and that was the first of several pieces that washed up in that area.

• 22:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, this was a part. Of the airplane called a Flaperon. Uh, it's on the back edge of the wing and it's a control surface.

• 22:47Josh Clark?

  You know the kind that just kind of flaps up and down on it? It's a great name for it.

• 22:50Speaker 02

  It is.

• 22:52Josh Clark?

  Now all know.

• 22:53Speaker 02

  Uh, and the serial numbers confirmed it, so it was definitely from, uh, MH370. And then, uh, many other pieces have, I think, uh, what dozens? At this point, the pieces of plane have been found.

• 23:06Josh Clark?

  Yeah. What's creepy is other pieces have been found, but they're not from MH370. It's like, well, what planes are these coming from?

• 23:14Speaker 02

  Oh, well, yeah.

• 23:16Josh Clark?

  That's creepy.

• 23:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. I, I think maybe every... Is there any way to completely tag every square inch of an airplane?

• 23:25Josh Clark?

  I don't know. I don't know.

• 23:26Speaker 02

  And not necessarily with a stamp, but, um... I don't know.

• 23:30Josh Clark?

  No, I know what you mean.

• 23:31Speaker 02

  Some kind of technology.

• 23:32Josh Clark?

  If there's a... You could probably attach some sort of marker to atoms eventually and you would be able to tag any so... any part of any plane down to the atom.

• 23:41Speaker 02

  Like you find a little four inch piece of metal?

• 23:44Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 23:44Speaker 02

  And you know what it is.

• 23:45Josh Clark?

  You just like analyze the atomic makeup and be like, oh, look, MH370.

• 23:49Speaker 02

  But that's the future, everyone.

• 23:50Josh Clark?

  That's not too far off. Once we get into nanotechnology, that will be commonplace. Although we'll also probably be able to make planes that don't come apart.

• 23:57Speaker 02

  Right. Uh, so, the other thing this suggests too is that, um, the plane hit... And we talked earlier about when a plane is descending into an ocean like that, is going super fast.

• 24:10Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 24:10Speaker 02

  And this really kind of confirms that because they didn't find much wreckage. The plane, um, these parts probably ripped off on the way down. And most of the plane, fairly intact, hit the ocean and went south very, very fast.

• 24:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah, right to the bottom.

• 24:26Speaker 02

  Right to the bottom.

• 24:27Josh Clark?

  So this also dashed the hopes of the families even further in that that those four electronic location transmitters?

• 24:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:35Josh Clark?

  The beacon, the life beacons that were supposed to go off and all four failed?

• 24:38Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 24:39Josh Clark?

  Uh, some family members and a lot of conspiracy theorists are saying, all four of those failing? No way.

• 24:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:45Josh Clark?

  It means that the plane didn't descend quickly, didn't catch fire, didn't hit water, because some of those transmitters are supposed to go off when they hit water.

• 24:54Speaker 02

  Right.

• 24:54Josh Clark?

  But if they broke up on the way down.

• 24:57Speaker 02

  Right.

• 24:57Josh Clark?

  Because here's the thing, is the planes, if it entered a steep decline at 600 miles an hour, which is about what they think it was cruising at, if it drops from 35,000 feet at 600 miles an hour within two minutes, it's going to just break up either on the way down or the moment it hits water.

• 25:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:14Josh Clark?

  So much so that some of these beacons that are designed for this scenario are not going to function.

• 25:19Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 25:20Josh Clark?

  And there's another, there is one beacon that is designed to go off on impact. It's designed for that kind of thing. But it needs 50 seconds above water.

• 25:30Speaker 02

  Right.

• 25:31Josh Clark?

  To transmit to the satellite, so they think this thing hits so fast that that beacon might have just gone right down underwater and not been able to transmit in that 50 seconds. So it's an explanation that the plane came apart in the Southern Indian Ocean, didn't just crash in the Southern Indian Ocean, it came into a million pieces in the Southern Indian Ocean.

• 25:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, and you know, we mentioned the black boxes in the previous episode. Obviously, we don't have these black boxes. They're down there with everything else. Haven't recovered anything like that.

• 26:02Josh Clark?

  But they think that they probably wouldn't tell much of a story anyway.

• 26:06Speaker 02

  No, not unless there was some sort of final communications or something.

• 26:11Josh Clark?

  That's what it would take. It would take whoever was in charge of the plane at that time still, talking and explaining. And if you were the only person alive on this plane, who would you be talking to?

• 26:25Speaker 02

  Well, let's go ahead and talk about who this might be, because all indications point that it was the captain of the airplane himself, Captain Shaw.

• 26:34Josh Clark?

  Yep, Captain Zahari Ahmad Shaw.

• 26:36Speaker 02

  That's right. So the wreckage, basically, I mean, there's a lot of clues, again, we can't say anything for sure.

• 26:43Josh Clark?

  No.

• 26:44Speaker 02

  But no one ever claimed, you know, it's unlikely that it was terrorists, because... One thing terrorists do, which is what makes them terrorists, is claim responsibility.

• 26:52Josh Clark?

  They like to brag.

• 26:53Speaker 02

  Well, so everyone knows who it was.

• 26:54Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 26:55Speaker 02

  No one did this. No one even falsely did this.

• 26:58Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 26:58Speaker 02

  Which happens sometimes.

• 26:59Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 27:00Speaker 02

  The same can be said for a kidnapping, because there are some theories about that. That there were some important people aboard that they wanted to disappear or something.

• 27:09Josh Clark?

  Right. Like, if you were kidnapping somebody, you want them alive, and they can't be alive if the plane's in a million pieces in the southern Indian Ocean.

• 27:17Speaker 02

  That's right. And there were only two people on that plane who knew and had the knowledge and access to do this stuff, and that was Captain Shaw and First Officer Hamid.

• 27:30Josh Clark?

  Also, yeah, there's something really important to point out here, too, Chuck. There was no distress call.

• 27:35Speaker 02

  Right.

• 27:35Josh Clark?

  And for, if it was a hijacking, between the time that Zahari said, "Goodnight, Malaysian 370."

• 27:42Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 27:43Josh Clark?

  And the transponder went off at exactly the right time, right when it hit a Ho Chi Minh air traffic control's jurisdiction, it would have taken a minute for terrorists to make their way into the cockpit, which was sealed with an electronic lock, super bolted. It would have taken less than a minute at a precise moment in time for terrorists to take control of the plane.

• 28:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:05Josh Clark?

  That just would not have happened.

• 28:06Speaker 02

  No. The idea that these two were working together is not very plausible. The idea that it was First Officer Hamid himself is not plausible, because, like we said, this is a Green Horn. He was just getting started in his career. He was super happy to be, to have this job, this great job, flying the Pride of Malaysia. Nothing at all points that he had anything to do with this.

• 28:33Josh Clark?

  No, it doesn't. And also, it would have been much harder for him to get Captain Shaw out of the cockpit.

• 28:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, "Why don't you go take a bathroom break?"

• 28:44Josh Clark?

  Yeah, Captain Shaw would have been like,

• 28:45Speaker 02

  "I don't need to."

• 28:46Josh Clark?

  "I'm the boss of you."

• 28:47Speaker 02

  He's like, "No, but seriously, go do it." I'm wondering how Captain Shaw might have gotten him out.

• 28:52Josh Clark?

  So, one thing, language. This is a well I will keep going back to all day long.

• 28:57Speaker 02

  The Langwaisch Well?

• 28:57Josh Clark?

  Yeah. He said that Captain Shaw was known as a, somebody who wanted to know all the details of what was going on, so it would have been very normal.

• 29:09Speaker 02

  Go back and check on something?

• 29:10Josh Clark?

  Exactly. It would have been very normal, it would have been very easy, and First Officer Hamid would have hopped right up and gone right out of the cockpit, leaving Shaw alone, to lock the door, lock him out.

• 29:20Speaker 02

  Yep, and that's all it took.

• 29:21Josh Clark?

  That's all it took.

• 29:22Speaker 02

  So, when you start, we said that the report from the Malaysian police came back as a glowing report for Shaw. When you start doing a little digging around, that's not exactly the case. Before this plane disappeared, in the months before, he had separated from his wife, he was living by himself, apparently was having an affair with a married woman.

• 29:45Josh Clark?

  I think a platonic affair, but a weird emotional affair.

• 29:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:49Josh Clark?

  It also involved her children that he was really into.

• 29:52Speaker 02

  Right. He apparently was very big on social media, but he did not leave like a Facebook post.

• 30:00Josh Clark?

  No suicide note?

• 30:01Speaker 02

  No suicide note, no video, and he was on YouTube. He did DIY repair things on YouTube, videos, which is pretty remarkable.

• 30:09Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 30:10Speaker 02

  But here's the big clue, to me and everyone else, is that he, Microsoft has this flight simulator that's a lot of fun. I don't know if you've ever played around with one of those?

• 30:20Josh Clark?

  Not for many, many years.

• 30:22Speaker 02

  It's a ton of fun. I've crashed tons of planes, because it's really hard, as it turns out, to fly one of these. But he loved doing this. He loved flying these. It was one of his hobby, was flying this flight sim. So, they were able to get into the flights that he flew preceding this disappearance, and one of them really closely matches the flight path of MH370, right into the Indian Ocean. Some people might say like, hey, listen, that doesn't prove anything. But all the other flights that he had played around with, he took from takeoff to landing. This is the only one where he jumped forward like a podcast commercial.

• 31:08Josh Clark?

  Don't say that.

• 31:09Speaker 02

  He's skipping forward in time on that flight alone to see how these fuel calculations were going to play out and where this plane would be when it ran out of fuel over the Indian Ocean. Flight sim over.

• 31:22Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 31:23Speaker 02

  That is so suspicious, like, I mean, it's, I know you can speculate, but it's almost an open and shut case when you hear that.

• 31:32Josh Clark?

  It's so suspicious. I saw one member of the independent group said that he left it as a breadcrumb.

• 31:38Speaker 02

  Oh, interesting.

• 31:38Josh Clark?

  You know, that like, he wouldn't have learned anything from Microsoft Flight Simulator, which is, to a guy in a 777, basically a game, you know, that he was just basically leaving something behind. That was, that was one guy's interpretation in the independent group.

• 31:53Speaker 02

  Well, the very least, he could say, if I, if I'm here and I'm on this header, and I put it on autopilot, who knows, he may have killed himself.

• 32:01Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 32:02Speaker 02

  He may have wanted that thing to fly into the ocean for sure.

• 32:05Josh Clark?

  So, the, the idea is that Captain Zahari took control of the plane by locking First Officer Hamid out of the cockpit, turned off the electrical system, took the, the 777 in a hard turn, backtracking, and probably going up to about 40,000 feet at the same time, accelerating the effects of depressurization, depressurization in the cabin.

• 32:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, killing everyone on board.

• 32:33Josh Clark?

  Killing everyone on board, putting it on autopilot and setting a course for the Southern Indian Ocean with a plane full of dead people for a good six something hours. He may have killed himself at some point, he may not. He, there's some data that suggests that the plane running out of fuel and dropping from the sky would not have hit the ocean as hard as the wreckage suggests that it hit, and that it might have taken somebody driving the plane into the ocean.

• 33:04Speaker 02

  Oh, really?

• 33:05Josh Clark?

  So, he may have been alive to the very bitter end. And if he was a 777 pilot, dying by crashing a plane in the ocean, I'm betting that he wouldn't have killed himself before the crash. It just doesn't seem right. But the idea is that he killed his passengers and then killed himself by crashing this plane into the Southern Indian Ocean. And this, like, the mind recoils from that idea. But the problem is, it's happened before. Pilots have killed their passengers.

• 33:34Speaker 02

  At least four times.

• 33:35Josh Clark?

  Yes, multiple times in the history of air travel.

• 33:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, and here's the other final clue, which to me is kind of the cherry on top, is that...

• 33:44Josh Clark?

  Really, I found this one tough to...

• 33:47Speaker 02

  Oh, really?

• 33:47Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 33:48Speaker 02

  Oh, I didn't think so, because we mentioned earlier, he took a very deliberate path to do a little flyby of Penang Island that was out of the way, and he grew up on Penang Island. And, I don't know, man, I don't think that was...

• 34:01Josh Clark?

  So that's it?

• 34:01Speaker 02

  I don't think that was an accident.

• 34:03Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 34:03Speaker 02

  I think a final little flyby makes sense.

• 34:08Josh Clark?

  I mean, I could see it, sure. To me, it's the simulator.

• 34:12Speaker 02

  Well, I think...

• 34:12Josh Clark?

  It's like a smoking gun.

• 34:13Speaker 02

  Both those things to me.

• 34:15Josh Clark?

  So, we were saying that people have done this before, right?

• 34:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, German Wings Flight 9525.

• 34:23Josh Clark?

  I remember that one.

• 34:24Speaker 02

  LAM Mozambique 470, Egypt Air 990, and Silk Air...

• 34:31Josh Clark?

  That's another Langmuir's article you should read.

• 34:32Speaker 02

  I'm not reading any of these.

• 34:33Josh Clark?

  You got it, man, he's so good, Chuck.

• 34:36Speaker 02

  Then Silk Air Flight 185. They murdered everyone on board.

• 34:41Josh Clark?

  Yep. Like, there's no other way to take your own life.

• 34:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:46Josh Clark?

  There's so many other ways to take your own life that don't involve the innocent lives of your passengers, that this is one of the most despicable things you can possibly do.

• 34:55Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 34:55Josh Clark?

  And so, in response, a lot of people...

• 34:57Speaker 02

  It's like a suicide bomber.

• 34:58Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 34:59Speaker 02

  You know?

• 34:59Josh Clark?

  A lot of people say, "There's no way he did this," including his family. They are like, "No, this guy did not do that, he was a nice guy, he wouldn't kill a bunch of people." But if you follow the evidence, and again, nobody can say for certain, and probably no one will ever be able to say that it was Captain Shaw that did this. But if you follow the evidence and you form your own opinion, there's, it's pretty convincing that he did.

• 35:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:24Josh Clark?

  But a lot of people say, "No, no way." And because they've not been able to explain what happened, it's formed this vacuum that's being filled by conspiracy theories.

• 35:34Speaker 02

  Right.

• 35:34Josh Clark?

  And there's a lot of them.

• 35:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, so we'll take our last break here, and we will, we're not going to go too deep into those, but we will kind of rattle off some of the leading ones right after this.

• 35:58Josh Clark?

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• 36:07Speaker 03

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• 36:20Josh Clark?

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• 36:36Speaker 03

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• 37:01Josh Clark?

  Everyone has a story to tell. What's yours? The moment you met your partner, landed that promotion? For people living with a rare disease, life can feel divided into before the diagnosis and all the after moments that follow. On Voices of VivGart, VivGart is also known as its generic name, Fgart Tigamod Alpha F-Cab, you'll hear powerful stories from people facing challenges and embracing a life with a rare disease.

• 37:24Speaker 03

  Join host Andra Stratten as she guides listeners through honest conversations about life after diagnosis. You'll hear how each guest worked with her care team on their treatment plan as well as their personal challenges, setbacks, progress, and moments of connection.

• 37:37Josh Clark?

  These stories reveal that life is bigger than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Listen to Voices of VivGart on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 37:54Josh Clark?

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• 38:11Speaker 03

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• 38:26Josh Clark?

  Yeah, plus, everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen, so you can give luxury-quality pieces without the luxury price tag.

• 38:39Speaker 03

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• 39:15Josh Clark?

  And Chuck, before we rattle off some of these conspiracy theories, I want to say because we can't explain this, nobody can say that it was Captain Shaw.

• 39:23Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 39:24Josh Clark?

  There are some things you can say it's not, like it wasn't an accident. It wasn't, it wasn't terrorists or anything like that.

• 39:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:31Josh Clark?

  But you can't say definitively that, yes, it was Captain Shaw. And if this floats your boat, there's a whole rabbit hole for you to dive down with MH370. There's a lot of other interpretations, but this seems to be among air disaster experts, the likeliest explanation.

• 39:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, we are not saying, to be clear, that it was Captain Shaw.

• 39:54Josh Clark?

  Nobody can say that it was.

• 39:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, we're just sort of following Occam's razor here and the findings of experts. Like you said, it's the cleanest explanation there is.

• 40:04Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 40:06Speaker 03

  All right, well, some things that aren't so clean. Should we go over some of these? This was compiled by theweek.co.uk.

• 40:14Josh Clark?

  The Week?

• 40:14Speaker 03

  I didn't see, yeah.

• 40:16Speaker 02

  I didn't see any authorship, though, on this one.

• 40:21Josh Clark?

  Yeah, maybe they're like The Economist and they don't, it's all The Economist speaking. It's all The Week speaking, you know what I mean?

• 40:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. They're a collective. So, let me see here. One of these is that Captain Shaw parachuted out of the plane to meet that woman on a boat.

• 40:38Josh Clark?

  Totally unnecessary because he and his wife had already separated.

• 40:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:43Josh Clark?

  He was living alone.

• 40:44Speaker 02

  That's right. But that was actually written by a journalist in a book called The Hunt for MH370 by E. Ann Higgins.

• 40:51Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 40:53Speaker 02

  What else? This one is interesting, that it was cyber-hijacked. This is in another book called Beneath Another Sky: A Global Journey Into History. And this is the suggestion that Boeing's Honeywell Uninterruptible Autopilot Onboard Computer was hacked and reprogrammed.

• 41:12Josh Clark?

  Yeah, there's, that ties into another one, that the CIA got their hands on the plane remotely. But I don't know that it's true, but there's a definite thread through conspiracy-minded groups that after 9/11, they have engineered some sort of mechanism onto airliners so that they can be remotely controlled in case they are hijacked, so nobody can fly something into the World Trade Center or anything like that again.

• 41:38Speaker 02

  Makes sense.

• 41:39Josh Clark?

  It does make sense. It makes so much sense that I'm like, wait, did they actually do that? But that's the, that's like step one to that conspiracy theory. Step one is that that exists, and then step two is that somebody used it to vanish MH370.

• 41:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:56Speaker 02

  What else? Asian Bermuda Triangle?

• 41:58Josh Clark?

  No.

• 41:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, should we just?

• 42:01Josh Clark?

  That's all you need to say.

• 42:02Speaker 02

  Well, this one, I thought it was funny because it said that...

• 42:07Speaker 02

  When you look at where it crashed, it's the exact opposite of the Bermuda Triangle on the other side of the globe. And then I guess someone just looked and they were like, um, no, it's actually not.

• 42:17Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 42:17Speaker 02

  So go ahead and throw that down the tubes.

• 42:19Josh Clark?

  Maybe in the general neighborhood, but definitely not on the.

• 42:22Speaker 02

  And also, there's no Bermuda Triangle causing plane crashes.

• 42:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's, that's a big, big issue with that.

• 42:27Speaker 02

  What, what do you got?

• 42:28Josh Clark?

  Um, another one is that, uh, that it was used as MH17. Remember I said that 2014 was a terrible year for Malaysian Airlines? And the idea is that they hijacked, they, meaning probably the CIA or the US government or some shadowy cabal, hijacked MH370, safely landed it in some, at Diego Garcia Air Base or somewhere under US control, um, killed everybody, or maybe they were dead from hypoxia to begin with anyway.

• 42:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:00Josh Clark?

  Um, put them in freezers and then staged this, changed the call sign from a zero or from an O to a D on the plane.

• 43:09Speaker 02

  Easy enough.

• 43:10Josh Clark?

  Um, and then used it to be shot down over Ukraine. And supposedly there's reports from Ukrainian journalists and humanitarian workers and even Ukrainian rebels saying that the, the corpses that fell from this, this shot down plane, MH17 over Ukraine, were already decomposing and rotting as if they died weeks before. Um, I've not found anybody who actually said that or anything like that, but that's the, the whole thing is that it was a big false flag operation.

• 43:41Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 43:42Josh Clark?

  But isn't it nuts that like, if you can't explain something like a disappeared airliner?

• 43:47Speaker 02

  Right.

• 43:47Josh Clark?

  People go onto the internet and write books and say, here's what really happened.

• 43:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:51Josh Clark?

  And then it's this.

• 43:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:53Josh Clark?

  Think about the level of distrust we have for the people running the show that this has an audience.

• 43:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:59Josh Clark?

  Like, I do not blame anybody who believes stuff like this because we've been lied to for so long.

• 44:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:05Josh Clark?

  That you can buy this.

• 44:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:07Josh Clark?

  You know, that's that some government agency would hijack a plane, kill everybody, and then use it to pin it on, um, you know, Putin-controlled, uh, Ukrainian forces.

• 44:18Speaker 02

  Right.

• 44:19Josh Clark?

  Come on.

• 44:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was Hunter Biden.

• 44:22Speaker 02

  So here's another one that I thought was interesting and not I'm saying it's interesting is like, could it be? But if you go to look at passengers on an airplane and try and find a thread, you might want to look at the fact that there are 20 people that worked for a company.

• 44:39Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 44:40Speaker 02

  All onboard called Freescale Semiconductor. So I hear that and I think, well, we should at least look into this.

• 44:46Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 44:47Speaker 02

  Is there any reason someone would want to tank this company? Or tank 20 people that worked, important people that worked for this company? And the theory is that they might have been killed by a plane crash, either for secret technology or to manipulate stock prices.

• 45:03Josh Clark?

  Right. And apparently that company helped the NSA or the CIA or the US government in general create some of its Prism program surveillance technology. So they were supposedly already in cahoots with shadowy agencies within the US government to begin with. And since this plane was headed to Beijing, China.

• 45:23Speaker 02

  Right.

• 45:23Josh Clark?

  Perhaps these, this company was going over to work with China now and the CIA didn't like that, so they did this. Pretty interesting. As you said, interesting.

• 45:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's all it is.

• 45:34Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 45:35Speaker 02

  And then there are other various ones from life insurance scams to false flag hijackings.

• 45:41Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 45:42Speaker 02

  To alien abductions. Apparently 5% of Americans surveyed believe it was abducted by aliens.

• 45:49Josh Clark?

  Believe MH370 was abducted by aliens? I saw that and my brain wouldn't accept that. I think I just saw it as 5% of Americans believe in alien abductions.

• 45:58Speaker 02

  No, I think.

• 45:59Josh Clark?

  I don't, I can't hear what you're about to say.

• 46:00Speaker 02

  It's just some dumb survey.

• 46:03Josh Clark?

  Okay. You got anything else?

• 46:05Speaker 02

  No.

• 46:06Josh Clark?

  Well, if you want to know more about MH370, friend, meet your new hobby because it is all over the internet. And you can follow whatever thread you like. And since I said that, it's time for listener mail.

• 46:19Speaker 02

  This one's a bit long, but boy, is it a good one. And a super important one for this gentleman and his family. Hey, guys, my name's Tyler. I live in Michigan. I've got a story for you. The Sunday before Thanksgiving, my family and I woke up and went around business as usual. I was playing a video game with my two boys, and my wife said she was going out to the garage to get something and walked out the door. After about 10 minutes, my neighbor banged on the door. I opened it to see my next-door neighbor pointing at my wife, laying motionless on the ground in front of my car. Full-on panic mode set in. I ran the 10 feet or so to find her not breathing, fingers and face already blue, and my neighbor started calling 911. Luckily, I remembered some advice from your CPR episode.

• 47:02Speaker 02

  Not only how much pressure to apply to the sternum, which is a lot, but the rhythm. No. And I began to sing "Staying Alive." That is so great. By The Bee Gees in my head as I did the chest compressions. Trying to sing along while my adrenaline was pumping was not easy, but I did my best to stay calm and keep singing that part of the song in my head. The colors started coming back to her face a little bit after I started. The EMTs and police were at my house within five minutes and used a defibr... I always mess that word up. ...defibrillator on her three times, gave her three shots of epinephrine. Oh, my gosh. Before they finally got her heart beating again. Her brain went without blood for 20 minutes, though, and as a result, she's been diagnosed with brain damage. She's got a long road to recovery ahead of her, but the doctors think she has a good

• 47:46Speaker 02

  chance because of her age. Her heart had a severe arrhythmia that ultimately caused cardiac arrest. I'm doing the best I can for her and my kids while she heals. I'm the primary provider for my family while my wife was the primary caregiver. Having to take off work and take care of my kids has been really scary, but I've gotten tremendous support from friends and family here in my time of need. So I just want to thank you guys for the work you do. Without your podcast, I likely would have been burying my wife instead of visiting her in the hospital. What?

• 48:19Speaker 02

  This is like Christmas time, too.

• 48:21Josh Clark?

  Chuck, I wasn't prepared for this one. You could have given me like-

• 48:23Speaker 02

  Sorry.

• 48:23Josh Clark?

  Stuck me in the hand with a needle or something first.

• 48:26Speaker 02

  Uh, sincerely, thank you both so much. That is from Tyler Elliott. He said, "If you guys read this on the show, could you shout out my best friend, Justin?"

• 48:33Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 48:33Speaker 02

  He got me into the show back in the day and has been there for me and my family every step of the way.

• 48:37Josh Clark?

  So Justin is the one who should be thanked, really.

• 48:40Speaker 02

  It all, in a weird way, comes back to Justin.

• 48:42Josh Clark?

  Man, what is his name again?

• 48:44Speaker 02

  Tyler Elliott, and I hope your wife is recovering and-

• 48:47Josh Clark?

  Yeah, same here, Tyler.

• 48:48Speaker 02

  Best of luck to you, man. That's a, quite a harrowing experience.

• 48:52Josh Clark?

  Not only are we thinking of you, but everybody listening to this podcast right now is thinking about you, too.

• 48:57Speaker 02

  That's right. Sending out the best vibes into the universe.

• 49:00Josh Clark?

  Agreed. Wow. Well, if you want to try to top Tyler's email, best of luck.

• 49:05Speaker 02

  Good luck.

• 49:06Josh Clark?

  You can go on to stuffyoushouldknow.com and check out our social links there, and you can also send us an email yourself to [email protected].

• 49:18Speaker 00

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 49:33Josh Clark?

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• 50:04Speaker 07

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• 50:35Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.