Who's Up For A Circular Economy

What if we could take all the trash and waste we generate every year – gigatons worth – and used it again as raw materials. What we would have is a closed circle, one where we have everything we need without taking anything else from nature. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability, and it starts with a great deal on an off-road ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's longest lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures and style in between. And they're built on a reputation for quality and reliability, which is why Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places. Let's be real, eating is a huge part of our lives. It fuels us, it brings us together, and yes, it's one of life's great pleasures. But once a meal's over, we don't think much about what happens next unless something starts to feel off.

• 0:47Josh Clark?

  Introducing Eating Interrupted, a new podcast from iHeart Ruby Studio, hosted by longtime journalist and Crohn's patient Cynthia McFadden. Listen in to unpack what it means when your body doesn't always respond to food the way you expect and what science is now revealing about why. Listen to Eating Interrupted on the iHeart app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:09Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 1:19Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry will be here eventually, but for now, all you got is Josh and Chuck, but really, what more do you need on Stuff You Should Know?

• 1:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, in our world, in about two or three minutes, Jerry will just come in and go, hey, I'm here, guys, sorry I'm late.

• 1:39Josh Clark?

  I feel like she's learned not to do that. She'll just sit there on mute for a while.

• 1:44Speaker 02

  Really?

• 1:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah, she hasn't done it in a little while.

• 1:49Josh Clark?

  She's really turned over a new leaf.

• 1:52Speaker 02

  All right.

• 1:53Josh Clark?

  We'll see, we'll see. We should leave it in if she does come in.

• 1:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, we should do that.

• 1:58Josh Clark?

  We'll share with everybody.

• 1:59Speaker 02

  Except they'll just hear our end, so all they'll hear is, oh, God, Jerry.

• 2:03Josh Clark?

  Well, no, I think if she chimes in on Riverside, we could edit that into the final edit.

• 2:08Speaker 02

  This will be a fun test.

• 2:10Josh Clark?

  It will be. And there's a little peek behind the curtains for everybody of how we do our thing.

• 2:15Speaker 02

  Slapdash.

• 2:17Josh Clark?

  That's right. While making fun of Jerry.

• 2:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, hey, I just noticed we were not on the list of Time Magazine's 100 greatest podcasts of all time.

• 2:25Josh Clark?

  What? Really?

• 2:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. It was funny, because I saw that list, and my first instinct was, I mean, top 100? Like-

• 2:33Josh Clark?

  That's a lot.

• 2:34Speaker 02

  Like, surely, surely we cracked the top 100.

• 2:37Josh Clark?

  They probably haven't heard of us, is what it is.

• 2:39Speaker 02

  No, we're not on there. Literally, all of our old-time colleagues.

• 2:42Josh Clark?

  Oh, I'm sure.

• 2:43Speaker 02

  You name it. Radiolab, 99% Invisible, Ira, Maron, like, every podcast of note of the past 18 years except for us, basically.

• 2:53Josh Clark?

  That's very stuff you should know, isn't it?

• 2:55Speaker 02

  It is. It is very fitting.

• 2:57Josh Clark?

  We don't let that stuff get to us, though, do we?

• 2:59Speaker 02

  No, it's Time Magazine. Who cares?

• 3:01Josh Clark?

  Yeah. I didn't even know they put out a stupid podcast list.

• 3:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. Watch, we're gonna be Men of the Year now.

• 3:09Josh Clark?

  The headline on the cover will be like, "Oh, gosh, we forgot."

• 3:13Speaker 02

  Well, no, you'll be Men of the Year, but I won't be mentioned. That's how it'll work.

• 3:17Josh Clark?

  That's what Time does. They tinker with relationships by dividing.

• 3:21Speaker 02

  That's right. Speaking of tinkering, I think we could all tinker with our worldwide economy a bit, and perhaps make it more circular.

• 3:30Josh Clark?

  What are you talking about?

• 3:32Speaker 02

  Well, Josh, I'm talking about our topic at hand. Talking about circular economy, my friend.

• 3:38Josh Clark?

  Oh, I got. I didn't get the reference. So, have you heard of this before?

• 3:44Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah.

• 3:46Josh Clark?

  Okay. Yeah, I ran across it. As far as I know, it's fairly new from the 2000 aughts. I didn't see that it was an idea that was laying around already in this exact form, and then was picked up and promoted. So it's possible it was generally created by the Ellen MacArthur Foundation.

• 4:05Speaker 02

  Hats off to Ellen MacArthur.

• 4:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So Ellen MacArthur, as far as I know, still holds the world record for the fastest solo sail trip around the entire world. 26,000 miles of circumnavigation-

• 4:20Speaker 02

  Circular.

• 4:21Josh Clark?

  -in 72 days. Yeah, she loves circles. And apparently on her trip, I was reading about it. It sounds just insane. And by the way, whenever I read of like world sailing trips, I can't help but think of one of the best documentaries of all time, Deep Water, about Donald Crowhurst. I believe you've seen it before. I know we've talked about it. Oh, if you haven't seen it, I actually envy you.

• 4:45Speaker 02

  Is this the guy who, the diver?

• 4:48Josh Clark?

  Nope, he's a sailor. There was about like a 1975 world sailing competition.

• 4:54Speaker 02

  So he was, why is it deep water if he wasn't deep in the water?

• 4:58Josh Clark?

  Because he's, he's sailing over deep water.

• 5:00Speaker 02

  Oh, over deep water. They should call it over deep water.

• 5:02Josh Clark?

  You, you should see it. You should actually, I'll wait. Let's just pause recording and go watch it. It's that good.

• 5:10Speaker 02

  Uh, I'll look into that. I've been on a documentary kick lately, so I'll, I'm ripe.

• 5:15Josh Clark?

  This is, Time would put this one on their top 100 documentaries of all time, probably. So, um, yeah, so while she was sailing around the world, she just started, she had, I guess, a lot of time to think and saw a lot of waste and junk and terrible stuff and realized that there's a better way. And a lot of people have thought like, okay, there's a better way to do this. There has to be. And what she promotes, what she's kind of come up with is this idea of a circular economy. And in a very short back of the envelope sketch of it, the outputs, the waste of the economy get reused as inputs.

• 5:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:52Josh Clark?

  As basically turned into raw materials. And people say, oh, recycling. That's a big part of it.

• 5:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:57Josh Clark?

  But as far as the circular economy is concerned, we idealized recycling. Like, we're like, that's the best you can do. They're like, that's actually the least desirable out of all of them. There's a bunch of other stuff we can do instead. So circular economy.

• 6:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, it sort of aligns with the, the whole reduce, reuse, recycle ethos. Uh, I think that we could best explain it by maybe starting with the, what we generally have now, which is linear economy. Uh, and that's, who helped us with this? Dave?

• 6:28Josh Clark?

  Uh, yeah, Dave helped us.

• 6:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, it smacks of Dave. But Dave calls it, and Dave didn't invent this term, but it's a take, make, waste economy system where you take resources and, you know, whatever, like the cotton or any kind of raw material. You make something into that, to a product to sell to people. And then that thing. Maybe generally quickly wears out and you throw it away. And it goes into a landfill. It's a very, I mean, it's kind of the worst possible scenario you could ask for if you care about planet Earth and people and the world and animals and nature. And it's linear because it goes in one way. You have something, you make something and then that thing wears out and you throw it in the landfill.

• 7:12Josh Clark?

  Yeah, you take the, you take the cotton that you grow, you make it into a car. You drive the car into a landfill and jump out right before it goes over the cliff. That's what everybody does.

• 7:22Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 7:23Josh Clark?

  So you left out kick back and watch the money roll in because that's ultimately what the biggest challenge to implementing a circular economy is. One of the biggest ones is that the linear economy that we have set up that's been around since the industrial revolution is a money making machine. And it's easy to criticize when you sit there and look at all of the terrible waste and pollution and inequality that's been generated from it. You can also say, yeah, this wealth has funded a lot of science. It's improved a lot of living conditions. Even the poorest people in America are living high on the hog compared to the poorest people in other nations.

• 8:06Josh Clark?

  Like the wealthy nations have really done well for themselves with the linear economy. Again, that's a big reason why there's a lot of reticence to transition to something different.

• 8:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. There are some, you know, notable, I'm trying to think of a term we could come up with that labels instead of a gold star, like an industry that gets the opposite of that, like a turd pin or something that you wear.

• 8:34Josh Clark?

  That works so much, turd. But yes, that would work very well.

• 8:38Speaker 02

  Do you know what makes turd worse is that it's spelled T U R D.

• 8:42Josh Clark?

  Yes, that definitely does make it worse. Everything about that word is so bad.

• 8:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally. Turtle-y. So the four sectors that are sort of the worst are food, electronics, consumer goods, and construction. Food, obviously. And we're going to get into these more specifically as we go on. But generally speaking, food is a pretty terrible sector. And we've talked about food waste before. But it's not just the food waste that's like tossed by grocery stores and restaurants and stuff like that. But it's also, you know, a lot of places still are just using those single-use bags. And people are like, sure, double bag it, triple bag it. I don't want my tube of toothpaste to fall through that thing into the parking lot. And then all the packaging that goes into it. And we've, you know, again, we've covered all this stuff in various forms here and there. Unsustainable

• 9:28Speaker 02

  farming. Electronics, don't even get me started on electronics recycling and electronics that are basically impossible to repair or get repaired.

• 9:40Josh Clark?

  Well, they're designed that way. We did an entire episode on that, planned obsolescence.

• 9:45Speaker 02

  And nothing gets me more mad, almost.

• 9:48Josh Clark?

  Yeah. When a company purposefully designs a product to break in a short amount of time, like they'll put some sort of sensor or electrical component next to something that generates a lot of heat so that it degrades faster. Like, it's designed to break for you to throw away and then go buy another one. That's a big problem. Yeah, like you said, with electronics. But clothing is another one, too. It's designed to just be worn. You buy it cheaply, you wear it for a little bit, you throw it away. And we'll, like you said, we'll talk more about this stuff later. But my eyes started popping out when I was reading about clothing.

• 10:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's one for sure. And then construction. A lot of resources used in construction. And, you know, basically, construction materials.

• 10:37Speaker 02

  Anytime we've done any sort of like renovation project, because you know, we live in like a hundred year old house. So we've, instead of moving, we kind of stayed and fixed it up over the years at first by ourselves and then with, you know, the help of contractors and such. And as you know, you've been through stuff like that. It's like when that construction dumpster pulls up, we do everything we can. We fight tooth and nail to give stuff away. Like, hey, can you put all these awesome hundred year old bricks out by the sidewalk? Someone will take them. And, you know, they, they will acquiesce. You know, they hate dealing with us, uh, because they just want to throw that stuff in the dumpster. But we've managed to get rid of a, you know, we're going through a little thing now. And I had this really awesome screen door and they were literally

• 11:18Speaker 02

  throwing this really nice screen door. It was like a good one. It wasn't just like a $40 screen door.

• 11:24Josh Clark?

  It was like a Prada screen door?

• 11:25Speaker 02

  No, it was Gucci, I think. No, but it was like a, from like a craftsman company for craftsmen homes. It was sort of like an upscale screen door. And they were throwing it in the trash and I almost tackled the guy. And I put that thing out there and it was gone in an hour, you know?

• 11:41Josh Clark?

  Oh, I bet.

• 11:42Speaker 02

  Just little things like that make me feel like, oh God, I think I saved one little thing from the landfill.

• 11:47Josh Clark?

  Nice work, man.

• 11:49Speaker 02

  Not for a pat on the back, but you know what I mean? It just.

• 11:51Josh Clark?

  Well, you still deserve it.

• 11:53Speaker 02

  It just kills, our conscience is just burning up when they're throwing away even old wood and stuff, you know? I try to take that stuff to the camp and burn it.

• 12:03Josh Clark?

  You know what I found when you're dealing with contractors and subcontractors? If you want them to do something, you have to tell them directly in a, in a kind of an authoritative voice and then finish with, with chop chop.

• 12:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. And also stand there and watch them because as soon as you leave, they'll just say like, whatever dude.

• 12:20Josh Clark?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 12:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:22Josh Clark?

  For sure. Um, okay. So you guys out there listening probably have bloody crescent shape fingernail marks on the heel of your palms from hearing all this stuff. So just settle down, relax a little bit because now we're going to tell you a little bit about an alternative to that, the closed loop model, not linear, circular, the circular economy. And it basically says, it takes a look at everything wrong with the linear economy and fixes it one by one. And it's like, there's a lot left open. It's not like this is just a,

• 12:57Josh Clark?

  Like a completely ready to go economic model that's going to solve every single problem and it's not going to create any other problems. It's more we're at the most conceptual stage.

• 13:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:09Josh Clark?

  That is being presented to people to say, hey, there's another way. And here are some of the ways we can do it.

• 13:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's sort of just the opposite of everything we were just saying. Instead of planned obsolescence, there's a planned permanence. Like, hey, let's make something that lasts for a long time. That's one. Make something that's repairable. That's another.

• 13:30Speaker 02

  One really kind of brilliant thing that we're going to talk about later is that this idea of instead of owning something like sharing stuff, renting things, sharing things, paying for the use of things that you don't own.

• 13:44Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 13:45Speaker 02

  Like, you know, splitting that up. And then if something finally does reach the end of its life, because not everything will last forever, even the most well made thing. Those components then you can take down. And hopefully, most if not all of that can be recycled or remade into something else.

• 14:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and if you'll notice, reduction of consumption isn't an emphasis of this. I didn't see that talked about much at all. So no one's saying like, hey, you can't keep growing. It's just that the stuff that you're creating needs to last much, much longer. And the greatest thing you can do is to keep it as close to the consumer as possible. Right? So let's say you have a hammer. Everybody knows a hammer breaks like the second time you ever use it.

• 14:30Speaker 02

  Would you hammer in the morning?

• 14:32Josh Clark?

  More the evening for me.

• 14:34Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 14:35Josh Clark?

  But I would do it all over the land.

• 14:37Speaker 02

  All right.

• 14:38Josh Clark?

  So when you take a hammer, I was kidding about it breaking. But if you have a hammer and you don't use it a lot, the best you could do is give it to somebody else who is going to use it more, rather than throw the hammer away. That's a terrible example. I know people don't really throw hammers away. But keeping it reused so that there's no inputs or very little inputs. That's the ideal. The more inputs necessary, taking it apart, transporting it somewhere, putting it back together, refurbishing it. That is the least desirable, even though that's still within this scope that we currently have in the linear model. That that's like the best you can do. The, you know, like recycling. Recycling is the last thing you want to do.

• 15:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, and hammer's not the worst idea, my friend, because I'd say 99% of the people out there, if their hammer handle breaks, let's say you have a wooden hammer handle and that breaks, people just throw it in the trash. And you can fix that. One of my favorite things to do is I follow a few Instagram accounts where people fix things in front of your face, like that, just simple, everyday things. And it's incredibly rewarding to see someone take something that would normally be in the trash, and they're like, all you need to do is get another piece of wood, get that other piece of wood fully out of there, and, and shape it like the broken piece, and then you've got another hammer.

• 15:59Josh Clark?

  How do you shape it like the broken piece? What, what tools do you need for that?

• 16:03Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, these people do this for a living, so they may have a lathe or something. But like, it doesn't even have to be pretty. I could, I bet you, you give me a broken hammer, buddy, with my limited tools and skills, I could make that hammer new again if I really wanted to.

• 16:17Josh Clark?

  Okay. Here, here's a challenge. I challenge All Stuff You Should Know listeners to mail Chuck your broken hammers, and he will fix every single one of them for you, for free, and mail them back out of his own pocket.

• 16:29Speaker 02

  That's right. Send it to top100podcaster@123lane atlanta, Georgia.

• 16:36Speaker 02

  Should we take a break?

• 16:38Josh Clark?

  Yeah, let's take a break.

• 16:39Speaker 02

  All right, we'll be right back.

• 17:00Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability, and it all starts with a great deal on a truck from your local Toyota dealer.

• 17:09Speaker 02

  That's right. Make a smart buy on the off-road Ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's most capable and longest-lasting trucks, built with the strength for the tough jobs, the tech to power your next big adventure, and the rugged style for everything in between.

• 17:22Josh Clark?

  Or discover Toyota's off-road lineup, including the iconic 4Runner and Land Cruiser, designed to go beyond the everyday. And with Toyota's proven reputation for quality and reliability... Plus hybrid power on many models, you can get more for every mile and drive for less along the way.

• 17:38Speaker 02

  That's right. And long after you leave the lot, your Toyota keeps delivering with great resale value. So you could trade in for more when you're ready for your next Toyota. From a great deal today to a great value tomorrow, a Toyota is right for you. Shop toyota.com for deals and details, or stop by your local Toyota dealer today. Toyota, let's go places.

• 18:03Josh Clark?

  Hey, everybody. The best pieces in your closet are the ones you can count on. Whether you're heading to work or going out or keeping things casual. And this time of year, Quince makes finding something great for everyone else just as easy. This holiday season, it's where you want to shop for yourself and everyone on your list.

• 18:20Speaker 02

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• 18:35Josh Clark?

  Yeah, plus, everything at Quince is priced 50% to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen so you can give luxury quality pieces without the luxury price tag.

• 18:48Speaker 02

  So give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com, where you can get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK as well. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was stuff you should know. It's the best way to support the show.

• 19:22Josh Clark?

  So, OK, so far, basically, what we've been saying are all good ideas. Very few people are like, no, I want to throw my hammer away. I get the deep satisfaction throwing that broken hammer away. Most people just don't want their hammer to break, which, again, is addressed, like, making products planned for permanence, making them just better. Better than cheaper. But all of this stuff like is going to take a complete shift in how we view economics, how we view growth, and also how we view consumer behavior. Because we're in a linear model right now, and the basis of the linear model is making it as

• 20:03Josh Clark?

  easy as possible for you to buy and use and throw away, get rid of whatever product it is you're buying, whether it's potato chips, a hammer, a cotton for a car, whatever.

• 20:20Speaker 02

  You're gonna get me every time, by the way, if you keep going back to that well.

• 20:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, but you know, there are examples of things and companies that are and have been doing this. You know, Dave looked down on his kitchen table and saw an aluminum can and was like, hey, there's a good example right there. Aluminum is a very recyclable thing.

• 20:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 20:39Speaker 02

  And thankfully, it's it's being recycled at pretty good rates. It depends on where you are. If like you're in Brazil, that's about 100%. If you're in the USA, about 65%. But the the average aluminum can that you're gonna purchase in the United States is made from about 71% recycled materials. So we're doing okay there. It's a good example.

• 21:00Josh Clark?

  We're doing great. It's a great example. It's the probably the top example as far as the United States goes. People tend to recycle cans and they're easy to recycle. So we have a process and an infrastructure that makes the whole thing fairly low hanging fruit. And because aluminum cans are light enough, but also compactable, you can transport a bunch of them. So it's worth your while to transport them from a pickup site to like our actual recycling center. There's it's just checking all of the boxes. Even still, though, you see with as easy as it is, 35% of those aluminum cans just get thrown away in the trash.

• 21:37Speaker 02

  Who's doing that?

• 21:38Josh Clark?

  A lot of people. I mean, a lot of people do that. Yeah, I know. It's it's kind of nuts, but that it is. That is the case. So that right there just kind of goes to show you like that's where the consumer behavior needs to change. Everything else is basically in place for us to recycle. All of the aluminum cans that we have, we're just not doing it. So that's like kind of one pillar or an example of one of the pillars that has to be adapted to go to a circular economy, making people more thoughtful, I guess.

• 22:09Speaker 02

  Good luck, buddy.

• 22:11Josh Clark?

  I know. I think that's probably more than anything what makes this a pipe dream. I should say the most cynical side of me says that.

• 22:18Speaker 02

  Is getting everybody on board with a single idea these days is not possible, basically.

• 22:23Josh Clark?

  Yeah, because all it takes is one schmo to throw his can away in the trash. And you just lost your 100% recycling status. And then everybody goes, what's the point of a circular economy anyway? And goes back to the linear economy.

• 22:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, but the stat they could throw out then is 100% except Gary. You know?

• 22:43Josh Clark?

  And it would be a Gary.

• 22:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm sorry, Garry's. You know, it's true.

• 22:48Josh Clark?

  Yeah, not all Garry's are bad, but all bad people are Garry's.

• 22:52Speaker 02

  There's a stuff you should know shirt, not all Garry's. Just that's it.

• 22:55Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 22:57Speaker 02

  There are also some examples of companies that, you know, I'm a big Shark Tank fan of that TV show. And it seems like more and more companies are coming through there that are, that are small. And obviously they're small because they're on Shark Tank and looking for initial investments. But they're trying to do the right thing here. Getting corporations on board is the big problem. But I've seen a lot of companies come through Shark Tank where they're like, hey. And the reason I mentioned this is because Unilever is one of the examples of a corporation that's partnered with the L. M. MacArthur Foundation. They're reducing plastic waste and they sell a ton of stuff. But like when they're selling detergent and stuff like that or shampoo. Now they have programs where you're like, hey, send in your empty shampoo bottle and we will fill that thing up and send it back to you.

• 23:43Speaker 02

  Or, or get it in concentrate, stuff like that. And there, there's a lot of like Shark Tank companies that are doing similar things, including cleaning products where they're like, hey, there's a better way to do this. Where you're just not, even if you're recycling that plastic, just burning through these things on a daily and weekly basis and tossing it in the recycling or worse trash.

• 24:04Josh Clark?

  For sure. Right. And I think like entrepreneurs creating small businesses and focusing on like one thing that is sustainable, reusable, whatever. That's how larger corporations start doing that stuff. Because they buy those smaller corporations for that idea and implement it company wide.

• 24:22Speaker 02

  Hopefully.

• 24:23Josh Clark?

  So that's great that those people are out there.

• 24:25Speaker 02

  Or, or they squash it.

• 24:26Josh Clark?

  Yeah, or they squash it.

• 24:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:28Josh Clark?

  Good Lord. I just wanted to tell everybody, we should say, hi, Jerry. Jerry's here, everyone.

• 24:35Speaker 02

  I was, I was wrong.

• 24:36Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I saw that there are, I did not see a single shampoo refilling station in the US. There, I found them in Indonesia, Mexico, Philippines and Pakistan so far.

• 24:48Speaker 02

  I mean, that's, that's even better because then you're not, you know, mailing stuff. You know, because that's another type of waste is like just mailing the empty bottles and having that mailed back.

• 24:59Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I agree. I mean, if you're going to the store already and they're like, they're attractive little shampoo refilling centers. And I guess if you were really hard up, you could go just put your head under the nozzle and, and do a little, a little squirt and then run home and wash your hair.

• 25:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, they've been doing that with the, the big five gallon jugs of water forever, you know, at most.

• 25:18Josh Clark?

  Right. I thought of that too.

• 25:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a, that's a good thing because those things are, are huge and just swapping those out and refilling them just, it only makes sense.

• 25:28Josh Clark?

  Yep. Uh, there's also, there's a Dutch company called Niaga, which is again backwards. You'd never know that unless someone told you or you happen to be wearing a Niaga T-shirt in front of a mirror.

• 25:43Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, it is the word again. I think just the way you said that might be confusing.

• 25:47Josh Clark?

  Okay. I got you. Yeah. I'm sure it was confusing. I, can't you just hear like a time podcast monitor going? And like checking some box that keeps us off the list.

• 25:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. Like, mm-hmm, 101.

• 25:59Josh Clark?

  So if we're lucky, so this company, um, they're Dutch, they targeted carpets and mattresses. And those are two of the worst offenders as far as, um, at least as far as textiles go, but maybe as far as all products go.

• 26:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:16Josh Clark?

  Because they're big, they're essentially impossible to recycle or very, very hard to recycle. And people throw the, a lot of them away. I think 20 million mattresses are thrown away in the United States alone. 30 million in Europe and we toss about 2 billion pounds. Yeah. Of carpet away every year in the United States into landfills. Only 5% of carpet gets recycled.

• 26:43Speaker 02

  Ugh.

• 26:43Josh Clark?

  I couldn't even tell you where you would recycle carpet.

• 26:49Speaker 02

  I don't know. Is there a place called Recarpet?

• 26:52Josh Clark?

  Maybe.

• 26:53Speaker 02

  That's what it should be called, right?

• 26:54Josh Clark?

  Or Carpets Again.

• 26:56Speaker 02

  Right.

• 26:57Josh Clark?

  Or all of that backward.

• 26:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, the other reason those two, they're targeting those two, A, is because the people of the Netherlands are great.

• 27:06Speaker 02

  And hey, if you live in the Netherlands and you would go see a live podcast of us there in Amsterdam, let us know.

• 27:12Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 27:13Speaker 02

  Let's go ahead and just say that. We're putting out feelers for Europe, so we'd love to hear from people about where we might could get an audience.

• 27:19Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 27:20Speaker 02

  Is that okay to say that?

• 27:21Josh Clark?

  Yeah, we should probably tell everybody it won't be for two years.

• 27:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, we're targeting 27, but we're gonna get back on the road next year. Coming for you, Canada, in a big way.

• 27:33Josh Clark?

  Yeah, for sure. So you better close the borders.

• 27:36Speaker 02

  That's a little, well, they might. I hope we'll be welcome. We'll get a pass, I hope.

• 27:40Josh Clark?

  It's up in the air.

• 27:42Speaker 02

  But, long way of saying, the reason that they are targeting those specifically is not just the lifespan, but they actually have a name. They're called medium life bulky products. They, you know, this stuff lasts about 10 years and they're just full of nasty chemicals. And so all of that leads to them being two of the, two of the worst offenders. Mattresses and carpet full of chemicals don't last long and they're fairly large.

• 28:08Josh Clark?

  Yeah, especially if they're stained mattresses.

• 28:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Good luck recycling that.

• 28:13Josh Clark?

  I saw 80 to 120 years for a mattress to degrade in a landfill, which actually seemed a little fast for me, but, you know, it's still not fast enough. So this, this company is like, okay, we're actually gonna make this stuff out of recyclable materials, but even better than that, we're going to make it so that every part of the mattress is replaceable.

• 28:36Speaker 02

  Imagine that.

• 28:37Josh Clark?

  Or repairable.

• 28:38Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 28:38Josh Clark?

  So you're like, I got just gallons of urine staining the cover of my mattress. I need a new mattress cover. Rather than throwing out the whole mattress and waiting 120 years for it to degrade, you just call up Niagara and you say, hey, send me another mattress cover. And they say, hey, we didn't know that you could call direct from the United States to the Netherlands, but that's new for us. We'll send it to you straight away. And they send it to you, you put it back on, and there's no urine whatsoever until the next time it happens.

• 29:10Speaker 02

  That's right. But they say, what's the magic word? And you have to go, again.

• 29:18Speaker 02

  Like a two-year-old, again.

• 29:21Josh Clark?

  They do actually do that.

• 29:24Speaker 02

  It's great, and we'll look at other Dutch companies because they're doing the right thing, it seems like, in a lot of ways. One key to all of this is design.

• 29:35Speaker 02

  If you have a linear economy, which we do, like we said, it's purposeful. It's designed in such a way to make it either obsolete or just a mattress that can't be recovered or whatever. So you have to start with design. It has to start on the very conceptual phase of like, how could we make a mattress that could last you forever? And then you design it that way because it's possible.

• 30:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and design doesn't just apply to products, although that's the easiest thing to do is to say, okay, how can I design this product to fit into the existing recycling infrastructure? Or design it to be reusable or repairable? That's the easiest one. We also, though, need to design our recycling infrastructure to make it easier to recycle products that aren't designed to be recycled. So there's a lot of design that has to go, but you're right. Like, it has to be a conscious choice. And Dave points out something I think is important, too. Waste is a conscious choice, too. Like, when your little mini bag of Lay's potato chips, when you're done with it, you throw it away.

• 30:47Josh Clark?

  It was designed to be thrown away. Like, that was a decision that was made by the package designers. They didn't do anything to try to make it recyclable. They decided that the best thing for you to do with that package is to throw it away. And as much as you hate it, you have no choice. Your choice is to buy those Lay's potato chips or not buy them. And some people are starting to, based on the packaging. So some companies are starting to wake up. But for the most part, people are like, I don't want to think about the packaging that my potato chips come in. I have so many more bigger pressing issues right now that if you can just make it so that the people don't have to think about recycling it, then you're on to something.

• 31:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, 100%.

• 31:31Josh Clark?

  And I was talking about myself. I don't want to think about what I'm supposed to do with potato chip package. And I'm not being judgy. Like, I'm including myself in this. Like, I, I mean, I, I would like to think I'm more conscientious than, say, the average person, but I'm certainly, I'm not at, like, Chuck level.

• 31:48Speaker 02

  I'm not like Emily level. You know me, I'm on her coattails.

• 31:52Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 31:52Speaker 02

  Uh, well, I mean, when I was a kid, we had the Charles Chips driver come around.

• 31:56Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I remember that.

• 31:57Speaker 02

  And we would give them our, I mean, if you're of a certain age, you might remember this, there was a literal potato chip delivery company. They were called Charles Chips, and they came in a big metal tin. And you would finish with that tin, and your chip person would come by, and you would give them the tin of empty chips, and they would give you a full tin of chips.

• 32:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah, they'd reach in with the cuff of their shirt, wipe the tin out, put the chips in the tin, sometimes I saw.

• 32:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, and obviously, again, there's, there's still waste with the delivery truck and stuff, so save the emails. But we're talking about, you know, we're not idealizing it as, as perfect. We're just saying, like, it's a better thing than what we're doing now, which is those little foil bags sitting in landfills.

• 32:41Josh Clark?

  For sure. And yeah, that's another thing, too, is because this is kind of conceptual, and not every issue is being tackled right out of the gate with it. Like, energy use is a big part of it. So they obviously are like, well, we need more renewables. That's kind of a no-brainer. But it's important because not everything can be done with, with renewable resources. Some stuff just requires fossil fuels. Some stuff, say, requires nuclear. So you have to be able to design those power plants, or those industrial smokestacks, so that that stuff's being captured and reused as an input somehow.

• 33:17Speaker 02

  Right, exactly. Uh, and, you know, you talked about educating the consumer, but, um, and it's not educating the, uh, the corporation, because they know this stuff. They do it on purpose for a reason, like you, like you said.

• 33:30Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 33:32Speaker 02

  Uh, but it's more about, like, Companies coming along where the end user isn't the single focus. They take a more macro view and say, well, there's something bigger at work with these products we sell. And that's Planet Earth and Mother Nature. And while the consumer is important and we want to give them a good product, we can start from the beginning and design something that has less of an environmental impact, designed to fit within these recycling networks, like aluminum, like you were talking about. Like, once those are up and running. And a big one that I didn't think of that Day pointed out was like, do you need this new product?

• 34:11Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 34:11Speaker 02

  Does the consumer need it? Or is it just like, hey, I think we could boost sales in Q3 if we released a slightly different version of this dumb same thing?

• 34:21Josh Clark?

  Right. So you kind of mentioned something where,

• 34:26Josh Clark?

  like, using something like leasing or renting something can also be applied to things we don't normally think of as, is what we lease or rent, right?

• 34:37Speaker 02

  Right.

• 34:37Josh Clark?

  One of the, again, a Dutch company called Bundles is, basically, they come to your house. They'll bring you your dishwasher or your washing machine or your dryer or your coffee maker, or you can bundle it all together. That's the name.

• 34:53Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 34:53Josh Clark?

  And they're going to bring you a really high-end Mila sustainably manufactured appliance. And you're going to have this thing in your house and you don't have to lift a finger other than to use it. This company brings it, they install it, they come by and maintain it. When it's done, when you're done with it, say you're moving and you can't use it anymore, they're going to come pick it up, they're going to refurbish it, they're going to bring it to somebody else. It's like really circular. And the way that you are charged for it is by the number of washes you, I guess, carry out. I guess that's how you talk about laundry, you carry out a wash. It is called the paper wash model. And the whole basis of it is Wi-Fi.

• 35:37Josh Clark?

  Like, your washing machine is connected to their servers, so they're tracking how many times you're washing. And then, from what I can tell, you get a monthly bill based on the amount of washes you did, the amount of use you did for that, or you used for the washer or the dryer or whatever.

• 35:52Speaker 02

  You know what my takeaway here is?

• 35:54Josh Clark?

  What?

• 35:55Speaker 02

  You've never washed your own clothes, have you?

• 35:57Josh Clark?

  That is not true. I'm actually kinda good at my own clothes. I had to get good because I don't know how I do it, but there's not a day that goes by that I don't get a spot on one of my T-shirts. So I've gotten good at salvaging T-shirts.

• 36:10Speaker 02

  Same, same. It's incredible how stained my T-shirt gets on a regular basis. And I do believe you can carry out a wash like nobody's business.

• 36:20Josh Clark?

  Do you use Shout? That's what I use. I shout it out. It works really well.

• 36:24Speaker 02

  I use, and I hate having to use it, but my friend that has been working in wardrobe departments in Hollywood for 30 years said Zout is the one.

• 36:35Josh Clark?

  I've not heard of Zout. Why do you hate to use it? Is it made from coal?

• 36:38Speaker 02

  It's just one of those disgustingly smelly products.

• 36:42Josh Clark?

  Is it Naphtha?

• 36:44Speaker 02

  I don't know, but no, I mean, they mask it. It smells like, you know, just really, really, really, really heavily fragranced stuff.

• 36:52Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 36:53Speaker 02

  And, you know, we're not down with that. So it gets out of spot, but it'll taint. You gotta wash it by itself. It'll taint your whole load.

• 37:02Speaker 02

  Should we take a break?

• 37:03Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 37:04Speaker 02

  All right, we'll take a break and be right back.

• 37:29Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it all starts with a great deal on a truck from your local Toyota dealer.

• 37:39Speaker 02

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• 37:52Josh Clark?

  Or discover Toyota's off-road lineup, including the iconic 4Runner and Land Cruiser, designed to go beyond the everyday. And with Toyota's proven reputation for quality and reliability, plus hybrid power on many models, You can get more for every mile and drive for less along the way.

• 38:07Speaker 02

  That's right. And long after you leave the lot, your Toyota keeps delivering with great resale value. So you could trade in for more when you're ready for your next Toyota. From a great deal today to a great value tomorrow, a Toyota is right for you. Shop toyota.com for deals and details, or stop by your local Toyota dealer today. Toyota, let's go places.

• 38:32Josh Clark?

  Hey, everybody. The best pieces in your closet are the ones you can count on, whether you're heading to work or going out or keeping things casual. And this time of year, Quince makes finding something great for everyone else just as easy. This holiday season, it's where you want to shop for yourself and everyone on your list.

• 38:50Speaker 02

  That's right. And you know what? Quince focuses on high-quality staples made with premium materials like 100% Mongolian cashmere, 14-karat gold, and Italian leather, all timeless, versatile pieces that feel special to unwrap and become everyday favorites long after the holidays.

• 39:05Josh Clark?

  Yeah, plus, everything at Quince is priced 50% to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen so you can give luxury-quality pieces without the luxury price tag.

• 39:17Speaker 02

  So give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com, where you can get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK as well. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was stuff you should know. It's the best way to support the show.

• 39:52Speaker 02

  All right, we're back. Uh, I did want to mention one thing. We had to take a quicker break. We were laughing too hard, but on bundles and that renting appliances, you have to do a lot of education in the United States to overcome the perception of what rented appliances means.

• 40:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 40:11Speaker 02

  Because we grew up in, you know, it's probably still the same way as Gen Xers, where, you know, appliance rental was something like you did if you couldn't afford to buy stuff, like you rented your TV or whatever.

• 40:25Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 40:26Speaker 02

  You're like, oh, man, that means you don't have much money to buy a TV. But there is a better way. And I wish they had this here, man, because we've had some really bad appliance luck. And it makes me so mad because this stuff's expensive. I would, I would love to rent washer and dryer.

• 40:41Josh Clark?

  Well, I'll rent you mine.

• 40:44Speaker 02

  I've heard they can carry out a heck of a wash.

• 40:47Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's part of the American dream to own your own washer and dryer.

• 40:51Speaker 02

  Not me, man. I hate those things.

• 40:53Josh Clark?

  The government can take it from your cold, dead hand if they try. Yeah, it's definitely, it's definitely part of American culture is you own your stuff.

• 41:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, let's talk about food, though.

• 41:05Josh Clark?

  Okay, you own that, too. If you buy that, you own it here in the United States. Not sure what it's like in other countries. But food is a huge problem. We've done an entire episode, I think, on food waste before. I know we've talked about it extensively because I remember, and what's sad is we've been talking about this for decades now, and the stat remains the same. A third of all of the food grown in the world gets thrown away every year, about a trillion dollars' worth. And mindless amounts of water and fertilizer and labor inputs just wasted, not just in the face of all that loss of like money or resources,

• 41:49Josh Clark?

  but it doesn't even get diverted to the poorest people in the world who are starving.

• 41:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. And that's a great episode. So I encourage you to go listen to those. But one thing I don't know that we've covered on any of these shows while we were beating those horses.

• 42:05Josh Clark?

  What?

• 42:06Speaker 02

  Dead horses.

• 42:07Josh Clark?

  Skinning those cats?

• 42:09Speaker 02

  No. Is the nutrient cycle. And, you know, obviously, you know, wasting food is a moral problem and ethical problem. But one thing we haven't talked much about is that it disrupts that nutrient cycle. If you look at nature, the system they have is a closed loop system. They're, you know, things grow naturally out in the woods. And it is from soil that is being, you know, if it's just literally out in the forest, just being treated naturally by the natural processes of Mother Earth. And then an animal eats that thing and then poops it out. And that poop goes back into the soil and feeds the soil. That animal falls over dead one day, hopefully of very old age. Then their bodies decompose and release those nutrients back into the earth.

• 42:54Speaker 02

  And it is a, dare I say, elegant system that humans have come along and completely disrupted.

• 43:00Josh Clark?

  Yeah, we make food part of our linear economy where the food waste doesn't just get tossed on the ground and, you know, biodegrade into it. You don't want to do that anyway. Just our annual PSA, don't throw apple cores and banana peels on the ground because that's not a good thing to do. What's the best thing to do is to compost them to some degree or some way. The worst thing you can do, though, is to throw them in a trash can and have them taken to the landfill. Because then those nutrients that were put into that food have been taken out of the nutrient cycle for Earth, at least for however long it's going to take for that entire landfill to degrade. Which I can't even imagine how long it takes an entire landfill to just turn back into nutrients and stuff.

• 43:46Josh Clark?

  So it's disrupted in that way. Then we also disrupt it because we don't tend to collect our waste for reuse. It's an output, pure and simple. We don't, we don't put it back into the system. So there's two ways that we disrupt the nutrient cycle with our, with the way that we treat our food.

• 44:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally. This may be part of a suite, like a playlist one day. Because I just realized we've done things on sewage recycling or sewage treatment plants. We've done them on landfills. So maybe we should do like a little green playlist one day.

• 44:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah, we got one on permaculture that was pretty great.

• 44:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally.

• 44:23Josh Clark?

  Um, wait, before we move on, I should say some of that, those what are called bio solids, treated sewage, um, they, it does get reused in some cases. Have you ever used malorganite?

• 44:35Speaker 02

  Uh, why do I know that word? I think we've talked about that.

• 44:38Josh Clark?

  It's a miracle fertilizer. It does wonders for your grass, especially if you pair it with an inch of water flooding your grass. But it's these little particles and they smell, but not smell the way you would think because they actually are treated sewage from Milwaukee's municipal sewage system.

• 44:58Josh Clark?

  But they, it's like a nitrogen boost for, it's fertilizer for your lawn. It's insane how well it works. It's cheap and you're reusing waste from the good people of Milwaukee.

• 45:11Speaker 02

  Well, that's great.

• 45:12Josh Clark?

  And you can get it almost anywhere. It's very, it's very abundant and easy to get, and I highly recommend it.

• 45:19Speaker 02

  I'm down to zero grass now.

• 45:21Josh Clark?

  Oh, you could use it on basically any plants. So if you have plants that like nitrogen, you can toss a little malorganite on there.

• 45:29Speaker 02

  I'll pass it along to Emily. She, I'm sure she knows about it.

• 45:31Josh Clark?

  Zero grass. Is your entire lawn just, um, or your entire yard just covered with high-end antique screen doors?

• 45:40Speaker 02

  That's right. It's a good look.

• 45:42Josh Clark?

  I'll bet it is. I'll bet they, it's a little wobbly though, right? Walking around on it? Or are they just for looking?

• 45:49Speaker 02

  Uh, no, no, no, you walk on it.

• 45:50Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 45:52Speaker 02

  Uh, so Ellen MacArthur's foundation is, is looking to correct this, uh, and making, um, like basically investing in the biological cycle of the circular economy, like making this a part of it too. And composting is an obvious one, but, um, one of the things that is pretty amazing is called cascading. Uh, that is reusing food waste to make other things. And there's a, a what? A Dutch company? Called Peel Pioneers because you know, in those, in fruit peels, like orange and lemon and stuff like that. That's, the best stuff is in that peel, the zest of those things. And the essential oils that you get from those peels, like that's the gold, man. And people are throwing that away or composting it, which is okay.

• 46:37Speaker 02

  But how about taking those essential oils and actually making other products out of them? And that is what Peel Pioneers out of the Netherlands is doing.

• 46:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and that's, I mean, you can find cascading in a lot of different food companies. But that's a, that's a great example because those, that is, orange essential oils in particular are used in a lot of different other products. So you can have a pretty successful business just harvesting the scraps off the floor of an orange juice processor, you know?

• 47:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, converting stuff to biofuel is another pretty obvious one.

• 47:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and then anaerobic digesters. I have, I'm putting a lot of like, um, hope on anaerobic digesters in the future. Where we just figure out the microbes that eat this stuff. Or these microbes eat this kind of plastic. These microbes eat this kind of oil and like just unleash them on all sorts of stuff. And then reuse their byproducts as inputs. I really hope we reach that future. That to me is like the greenest of green.

• 47:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, we've talked about that too. I can't remember what episode.

• 47:38Josh Clark?

  I can't either. We'll have to, we'll have to use that stuff you should know, um, transcript search tool to find it.

• 47:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, I feel like it was like some, someone was using worms to do something. Doesn't that ring a bell?

• 47:51Josh Clark?

  It might've been a biofuel app.

• 47:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, maybe so.

• 47:54Josh Clark?

  We'll look it up.

• 47:56Speaker 02

  Can we talk about fashion?

• 47:57Josh Clark?

  Yeah, this is just crazy to me. I think we should do an entire episode on fast fashion, but we can hit some high points, I think.

• 48:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, fast fashion is sort of an environmental nightmare and a humanitarian nightmare. Because they're made in sweatshops for very little pay by people, you know, making very little pay. They are sold very cheaply. Cheap synthetic materials are used, so all the inputs are bad. They don't last long and it's, uh, it's an environmental nightmare, basically. I think the fashion industry is the second largest consumer of water. That has to be behind the factory farming, right?

• 48:36Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 48:37Speaker 02

  And it produces 10%. The fashion industry produces 10% of the global CO2 emissions total.

• 48:43Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and 85% of all the stuff that the fashion industry makes ends up in landfills, not recycled, landfills, 85% of all the clothes made in the entire world. There's another issue with it, too. When you wash, just washing, just using these things, washing them in your bundles, leased washing machine. You're releasing microplastics into the ocean because a lot of clothes, even recycled clothes are made from plastics or contain plastics. And those things get flushed out and it's a huge plastic pollution problem, too. Which is, I mean, it's ironic, like Patagonia is always held up as a great example of a company

• 49:27Josh Clark?

  that tries to make sustainable circular clothing. And one of the things that they do is their, I think their line of responsibility T-shirts, super cute. They're made from fabric scraps, cool, but also plastic bottles. Also cool because we want to recycle plastic bottles. But the problem is, is that plastic gets transferred to the ocean. So it's one of those things where it's like, we're so far from figuring this stuff out that even the people who are trying to do something are still having inadvertent effects that, you know, I'm sure keeps them up at night.

• 50:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. And you can also, man, you can send a 10-year-old pullover to Patagonia that had a collar that ripped or something and they'll fix that thing for you, probably for nothing.

• 50:13Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 50:14Speaker 02

  And you can buy, you can send stuff back to them that they will resell. And you can buy like, you know, gently used things from Patagonia online. They are also working with a startup called Infinitid Fiber.

• 50:29Speaker 02

  And what they're doing is they're working on the waste on the front end. It's a process to recycle that textile waste because, you know, it's not like, all right, we've got this much cotton and every single fiber goes into making that T-shirt and there's zero waste.

• 50:44Josh Clark?

  Or that car.

• 50:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, sorry about that, that car. There's, you know, there's going to be some textile waste on the front end. And so what they're doing is they're, they're taking that stuff and they're recycling that textile waste into a new fiber called Infini.

• 50:59Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and that stuff is 100% recyclable. So eventually, over time, if this loop were allowed to really kind of take hold, eventually all the cotton would be put into or transferred into the Infini circle. And since it's 100% recyclable, you could conceivably never have to put new cotton in again.

• 51:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure.

• 51:24Josh Clark?

  I don't think it's going to happen anytime soon. I'm just saying conceptually, that's kind of how this stuff works.

• 51:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's even compostable.

• 51:31Josh Clark?

  It is. So you would have to put some new cotton in once in a while because Gary would go compost it just to be a jerk.

• 51:37Speaker 02

  Right.

• 51:38Josh Clark?

  But yeah, for the most part, you could, and once it really kind of took hold and got going, it could, it could overtake the existing cotton stocks and make them 100% recyclable. And then you wouldn't need more cotton stocks, which is again, an issue we'd have to deal with because then all the cotton farmers are out of work.

• 51:56Speaker 02

  That's right. And we have no more new cotton cars on the road.

• 51:59Josh Clark?

  But one other thing that I found that really got to me, Chuck. I found a stat that said that most of the returns, like if you try something on, like a clothing, especially if it's mailed to you and you try it on and send it back. Right?

• 52:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:17Josh Clark?

  Most of those things are thrown away into landfills.

• 52:21Speaker 02

  No.

• 52:21Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 52:22Speaker 02

  What?

• 52:22Josh Clark?

  9.5 billion pounds of just clothing returns alone.

• 52:28Josh Clark?

  Were put into landfills in 2022.

• 52:31Speaker 02

  Unconscionable.

• 52:32Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and the reason why is because companies are like, I'm not going to pay somebody to fold this thing back up, put the pins back in it, put it in the plastic and make it new again so that I can sell it. It's cheaper for me to just throw it away. And there are programs that divert that stuff to like developing countries so that those clothes are donated. But I guarantee that's not as cheap for the company as it is to just throw it away. That's a huge impact that the fast fashion industry has on on the planet. It's that's crazy to me.

• 53:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I haven't been this upset about something I've heard from you in a long time.

• 53:11Josh Clark?

  And I say some upsetting stuff.

• 53:13Speaker 02

  I know. You usually text them to me, but.

• 53:16Josh Clark?

  Those are upsetting pictures.

• 53:17Speaker 02

  All right. One last thing we can talk about is the right to repair movement, which we talked about in the planned obsolescence episode. But, you know, it's exactly what you think. It's it's hey, we need to be able to repair our whatevers, our small appliances. That's a big offender. A lot of companies are saying, because, you know, I don't know if we covered this part, but because I don't remember why companies didn't do it, or at least why they say they don't do it. One thing they'll say is like, oh, you know what, with electronics, if we publish like how to other people can fix these things and basically give repair companies repair manuals, like it's it leaves people vulnerable to hackers if they can get

• 54:00Speaker 02

  information from that electronic device. And I just call foul on that. That sounds like a bunch of BS to me.

• 54:07Josh Clark?

  They're like, don't forget hackers. Hackers are going to get you more.

• 54:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, because you want your whatever your iPhone fixed.

• 54:18Josh Clark?

  Right. And you can't. I have a Acer Swift laptop that I love, but it's I've tried to replace the battery before and it's designed to not replace the battery. You cannot replace the battery. And obviously, the battery is the first thing that goes out.

• 54:33Speaker 02

  It's infuriating.

• 54:34Josh Clark?

  It is infuriating because it's like, he made it so that you have to get rid of your laptop and get another one. I it drives me nuts. So if you put all this together, Chuck. Like electronics companies successfully lobbying against right to repair laws, companies using planned obsolescence left and right, people like Gary just throwing their stuff away to be jerks. Like, how can this even be implemented? I can't see it happening, at least in the United States. I know the EU is really taking some strides toward this stuff, and hats off to them. But in the United States, I can't, in the foreseeable future, like as far as I can

• 55:19Josh Clark?

  think out, I can't see this being implemented.

• 55:22Speaker 02

  No, I mean, certainly not now with what's going on in our country, and that I'm not trying to get too political, but that's just a fact. It's not, it's not a, not only not a priority for our current administration to invest at all in something like a circular economy, but it's not even on the radar.

• 55:40Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 55:41Speaker 02

  Or it's outright being squashed.

• 55:44Josh Clark?

  Right. Even more disturbing is that even outside of the United States, globally speaking, recycling or secondary materials being put back in as inputs is actually on the decline by significant numbers.

• 55:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, we're headed in the wrong direction.

• 55:59Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 56:00Speaker 02

  Even though Dave points out that like, social media posts and articles about circular economy are, have tripled in the last five years, so there's more awareness, but we're going in the wrong direction as far as actual, you know, feet on the floor kind of stuff.

• 56:14Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and consumption keeps growing and growing and growing. Apparently, from 2018 to 2024, we consumed 500 gigatons of material. That's everything, raw material, finished material, fossil fuels. And that is 28% of the total amount we consumed in the last 125 years.

• 56:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:38Josh Clark?

  So it's just growing exponentially. So, yeah, there's a lot of stuff to overcome. You might say it would take like an authoritarian government to implement this kind of thing. And it turns out China has committed to creating a circular economy for themselves back in the 2000s, and apparently they're focused right now on automotive remanufacturing, which is essentially taking old cars and refurbishing them and their parts, selling them like new at a discounted price because they're refurbished.

• 57:07Speaker 02

  Oh, okay.

• 57:09Josh Clark?

  So I guess keep an eye on China and the EU to see where things go.

• 57:15Josh Clark?

  Chuck laughed a little bit, but his laugh was dripping with, okay, let's go to listener mail. So he just unlocked listener mail.

• 57:23Speaker 02

  This is a correction on a correction. So we heard from quite a few people about the most famous Brant Fortian. People wrote in and said, Alexander Graham Bell, forget Gretzky and Phil Hartman. Alexander Graham Bell was not born in Branford. So this is from Joel. Hey, guys, probably not the first person to say this, but I'm correcting your email correction that claimed Alexander Graham Bell was born in Branford. He certainly lived in Branford. So they claim him, he was born in Scotland and moved to Branford as a young man. I guess at one point in his life, he would definitely say he was from Branford. But that's not where he's from. Love the show. That is from Joel Dawson.

• 58:00Josh Clark?

  Very nice. So I guess Phil Hartman moves back up to number two.

• 58:05Speaker 02

  I guess so. And you know what? Whenever someone sends in their business or something, and it seems pretty cool, we like to tout them.

• 58:12Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 58:13Speaker 02

  And Joel signed his with freespiritours.ca. So I'm looking now, it looks like paddling and stand up paddle boarding, caving, forest therapy.

• 58:24Josh Clark?

  Awesome.

• 58:25Speaker 02

  Wine tastings, woodness wellness.

• 58:27Josh Clark?

  Wow. Also, I want to shout out Witchbolt again. Did you see Witchbolt got in touch with us to say, thanks for the mention on the alchemy episode?

• 58:35Speaker 02

  I did not see that.

• 58:36Josh Clark?

  They did. He did, I should say. He got in touch to say, hey, you guys want some t-shirts? Thanks a lot. He's been listening for 15 years. His name's Nick. He's been a listener for 15 years. Witchbolt has. Remember the dungeon synth guy?

• 58:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 58:50Josh Clark?

  So he wrote in and I was like, I'm actually a little starstruck right now. So there's like this big circular love fest going on. Not a circular economy, but a circular love fest going on between Stuff You Should Know and Witchbolt right now.

• 59:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:04Josh Clark?

  All right. Well, if you want to get in touch with us, like Joel or Witchbolt, you can send us an email, too. Send it off to [email protected].

• 59:17Speaker 00

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 59:33Josh Clark?

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• 1:00:34Josh Clark?

  Introducing Voices of Vivart. Vivart is also known as its generic name, Fgart Tigamod Alpha F-Cab. And this new show features firsthand stories from people living with a rare disease. Hosted by Andrew Stratton, these perspectives highlight that life is more than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Living with a rare disease can be challenging, but it does not define the Voices of Vivart. In these episodes, they share their stories, from diagnosis to working with their care team on their treatment plan. Listen to Voices of Vivart on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.