Pod Insights So True with Caleb Hearon Zach Zimmerman is Not Evil About this episode Welcome! This week’s guest is the hilarious Zach Zimmerman! Zach and Caleb talk moral dilemmas, parental expectations, good vs. evil, praise, so much more!
Join our Substack for an exclusive post-episode chat with Zach and other bonus content! https://calebsaysthings.substack.com/
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Produced by Chance Nichols @chanceisloud
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So True is a Headgum podcast, created and hosted by Caleb Hearon. The show is produced by Chance Nichols with Associate Producer Allie Kahan. So True is engineered and edited by Nicole Lyons. Kaiti Moos is our VP of Content at Headgum. Thanks to Luke Rogers for our show art and Virginia Muller our social media manager.
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Transcript 14,093 words · 10 speakers
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0:30 Speaker 01 Ugh, I hate Mondays.
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0:48 Speaker 03 Mmm.
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1:32 Speaker 04 This is a HeadGum Podcast.
1:35 Speaker 06 I think it depends. I think some bad people genuinely say they're bad. There's a troll who can never tell a lie. One more time? There's a troll who can never tell a lie. A third time, just to make sure we have it? You got it.
1:50 Speaker 06 How are you, sugar?
1:51 Speaker 07 I'm hanging in there.
1:52 Speaker 06 Yeah? What does that mean?
1:53 Speaker 07 Living, loving, learning.
1:54 Speaker 06 What, can you... You told me about 10 topics. I think you're the first guest ever to walk in and tell me 10 things I didn't know that I'm not allowed to talk about.
2:01 Speaker 07 Yep. It's called boundaries, baby. I'm learning what they are.
2:05 Speaker 06 I'm really happy for you.
2:06 Speaker 07 They're very hard to do.
2:07 Speaker 06 I'm really happy for you.
2:08 Speaker 07 It's all I want to talk about are those 10 things.
2:10 Speaker 06 Yeah, and so that's... Oh, I get it. So this... Yeah, the reason you're having to be so intense about not talking about it is because you're dying to talk about it.
2:16 Speaker 07 Oh, of course. It's the headline of my summer.
2:18 Speaker 06 It's hard for us.
2:18 Speaker 07 But I'm processing those things.
2:20 Speaker 06 It's hard for us, but we're the kind of people... I think most comics in general, but we want to talk about everything that's ever happened to us.
2:27 Speaker 07 Oh, yeah, and that's, uh... Nice in that it's vulnerable. My friend said like, that's what she loves about me. I like, open up and I share my innards so people can like poke around.
2:37 Speaker 06 Yeah.
2:37 Speaker 07 But I'm realizing like, oh, not everyone has, and I'm sort of violating my own boundary now. Not everyone has the purest intentions. Like, hey, this is how to love me is also like, hey, here's how to emotionally abuse me. And so I need to be a little more mindful about who I let in.
2:55 Speaker 06 Well, you're giving them the code to the safe.
2:56 Speaker 07 I gave them the code to the safe because I trust people.
2:58 Speaker 06 Yeah.
2:59 Speaker 07 I, I'm so naive and immature. I thought people were good. I still think they're good. I'm very Anne Frank, Jesus Christ in that way. And what happened to them, you know, says something.
3:10 Speaker 06 Do you feel positive about referring to yourself just now on the So True Podcast as very Anne Frank, Jesus? Does that feel good to you? Because I'm a mere humble interviewer and I'm happy to.
3:24 Speaker 07 I believe people are good to my detriment.
3:28 Speaker 06 Yes.
3:28 Speaker 07 That's what I mean by that.
3:29 Speaker 06 And so did.
3:32 Speaker 06 I'm not saying that I'm Jesus.
3:34 Speaker 07 I'm not, and I'm also not Jewish. I realize both those people were Jewish. And I'm not. What else do they have in common?
3:43 Speaker 06 That is so funny.
3:44 Speaker 07 Anne and Jesus.
3:45 Speaker 06 Um, I don't know.
3:47 Speaker 07 I'm empowered by this.
3:49 Speaker 06 By what? The shoes off?
3:50 Speaker 07 Yeah. And I feel like a little kid.
3:53 Speaker 06 You, yeah, the striped shirt, the shoes off, the, the just.
3:56 Speaker 07 I'm a baby.
3:56 Speaker 06 Just learning about boundaries last month.
4:01 Speaker 07 Really? I thought you told everybody everything.
4:03 Speaker 06 Me?
4:04 Speaker 07 I thought one did.
4:05 Speaker 06 Oh, one, that one should, the capital, Royal U.
4:07 Speaker 07 Oversharer.
4:08 Speaker 06 Yeah. Well, I think it's fun to share. I like to share. I think I share a lot, but I, I keep, I keep some things for myself, but very rarely, very little.
4:17 Speaker 07 What do you keep for yourself?
4:17 Speaker 06 Um.
4:18 Speaker 07 See what I'm doing? I'm testing his own boundary. That was wrong of me.
4:20 Speaker 06 No, I, I, I was just talking to somebody about this yesterday that like in work, I'll talk about absolutely anything. I don't really have much fear around any topic. I don't have fear around any topic. I, I, I exercise some boundaries in my work only around a key couple of specific, like familial relationships.
4:39 Speaker 07 Hmm.
4:39 Speaker 06 And not my dating or sex life, but my romantic life.
4:44 Speaker 07 Oh, you talk about fucking but not falling.
4:46 Speaker 06 Yeah, exactly. Zach, you are such a poet.
4:48 Speaker 07 Stop.
4:49 Speaker 06 You are such a poet.
4:50 Speaker 07 No, one to know, you also.
4:53 Speaker 06 You make me wanna, you make me wanna embrace my, my southern poet side.
4:57 Speaker 07 Stop. We do, where's Midwest South?
5:00 Speaker 06 No, I'm, I'm.
5:01 Speaker 07 Stolen valor over there.
5:02 Speaker 06 Some people talk about, uh, Missouri as the South, but the truth of the matter is there's really two Missouris and one of them is southern, one of them is midwestern. I am from squarely from the midwestern portion.
5:12 Speaker 07 But there's, it's a spectrum.
5:14 Speaker 06 Yes, because if you're down in the boot hill of Missouri, that is.
5:17 Speaker 07 They call it the boot hill?
5:18 Speaker 06 Yeah. And it's, that's like Arkansas, Tennessee. Yeah, that's like down in the little dip of Missouri, you're down there. And then up in the north, it's like Iowa.
5:26 Speaker 07 Is it a pair of heels or it's a boot for sure?
5:28 Speaker 06 Yeah, it's, I'm just telling you what it's called.
5:31 Speaker 07 You know what I'm realizing these chairs are?
5:33 Speaker 06 Tell me.
5:33 Speaker 07 They're kinda like rocking chairs.
5:34 Speaker 06 It's fun to swivel.
5:35 Speaker 07 And we're on a porch.
5:35 Speaker 06 Isn't it fun to swivel?
5:36 Speaker 07 It's fun to swivel. I feel like, uh, one of those fans.
5:40 Speaker 06 What?
5:41 Speaker 07 You know, a fan that kinda gives a little air over here.
5:44 Speaker 06 You're referring to the concept of oscillating, yeah.
5:48 Speaker 07 Okay, S A T. I know that word also.
5:51 Speaker 06 Don't act like you don't know what oscillation is.
5:53 Speaker 07 Comedy is just synonyms.
5:55 Speaker 06 Yeah, it is.
5:58 Speaker 07 Vassilating?
6:00 Speaker 06 What do you think that you're blocking from me right now? By focusing on the, the chair and the shoes?
6:06 Speaker 07 I'm keeping things light so you don't get into the summer, the summer of from hell, the summer, the summer I turned broken.
6:18 Speaker 06 Oh my God, I just love that.
6:20 Speaker 07 We were talking before the show about Portland and you mentioned a fun experience you had. May I share a Portland experience I had?
6:25 Speaker 06 Well, I wish you would. This is Portland, Oregon.
6:27 Speaker 07 Portland, Oregon. I was there having a nice fun. I was on a dating app and matched with a beautiful trans woman and we started messaging and then we, she was like, oh, can I get your number? I was like, sure. We started chatting. We were gonna meet up, uh, to fool around. We shared, she shared a dirty pic and I was like, oh, that's a, that's a different pic than your profile picture. And she was like, oh, that's my roommate. She's also a trans woman.
6:49 Speaker 07 I was like, okay, you're a catfish and I blocked, et cetera, et cetera. Phone call. Do it now. I was like, what? Do it now. I look at my phone. He's, this scammer has sent a report of my name. They have my address, my age, a list of possible family members, some of which are true. A picture of me and then a picture of a penis, which is not my penis. I never sent this penis.
7:15 Speaker 06 Are you lying right now?
7:16 Speaker 07 No, it's literally not my penis.
7:18 Speaker 06 They sent a penis which is in mine.
7:19 Speaker 07 It was in my penis. I don't know whose that was.
7:22 Speaker 06 Yeah.
7:23 Speaker 07 No, it was, it's not, it, it was bigger than mine and.
7:28 Speaker 06 They always are. They always are.
7:30 Speaker 07 They always are. I know. That's why being bi is nice. Gay men like need 10 inches to feel anything.
7:36 Speaker 06 No, I've, I have been on record about this. A big dick is such a, it's cumbersome.
7:41 Speaker 07 Hmm.
7:41 Speaker 06 Don't bring a big dick around me. It's cucumbersome. It's not, it's like, why do you even have that thing?
7:46 Speaker 07 Yes, but I have to finish the story.
7:49 Speaker 06 Well, then get back to it.
7:50 Speaker 07 I forgot where I was.
7:52 Speaker 06 That he says, do it now.
7:53 Speaker 07 Yes, they built this report, not my penis, that they're gonna, they're like, I'm gonna send this to your family and ruin your life. I was like, what? And they're like, I'm counting down 10, nine, eight. And I was like, you don't.
8:03 Speaker 06 That is so.
8:04 Speaker 07 Like texting this, like 10, nine, eight, like do it now. And I'm like, what? He's like, send me $500. I'm gonna ruin your life. I was like, you don't have my family's phone numbers. And then he's like, all right. And so a couple of minutes go by. My sister texts me like, hey, did you get that text? I was like, how is this scammer like pretending to be my sister? That's insane. So I call her like, Hannah, what are you talking about? He somehow sent this report to my immediate family and my brother's ex-wife. Their numbers must be online with like, this guy does gay and teenager and they send the dick pic.
8:40 Speaker 06 Not gay and teenager.
8:41 Speaker 07 Gay and teenager. To be fair, I was talking to an of age trans woman.
8:46 Speaker 06 Yeah.
8:46 Speaker 07 What, when the allegations aren't even.
8:48 Speaker 06 Yeah.
8:49 Speaker 07 Like based on anything. And I'm just texting my mom like, that's not my dick, mom. That's not my dick. And I think she was most offended by just being reminded that I'm queer in her inbox.
8:59 Speaker 06 I was gonna say, it's, it's, it's not great for your mom who has like maybe some, some questions about queer. For her to get a text. It's like, here's your son's dick. He's doing teenager. It's like, okay. Worst case scenario, really. Yeah.
9:13 Speaker 07 And she, she was probably just like, send him the $500. Just do it.
9:18 Speaker 07 No, but that was quite a, quite an afternoon. It was quite a rush, actually. Cause I wasn't going to give into it. I knew it wasn't real or mattered, but it does get your heart racing.
9:28 Speaker 06 I mean, this is a horrifying story.
9:30 Speaker 07 Yeah, I do have a habit of going through terrible things and immediately thinking they're funny before actually like sitting with the emotions.
9:36 Speaker 06 Oh, it's horrifying that this person did this to you. So it's such an invasion of privacy.
9:40 Speaker 07 I know. It makes you kind of not wanna go on apps or give your number anymore or trust your gut more. I kind of knew something was up.
9:47 Speaker 06 I don't give my number.
9:48 Speaker 07 She was like, I don't charge. And I was like, well, that's a funny headline for your account. Like, okay. I was like, I do. Dollar a minute, babe.
9:58 Speaker 07 But they, they prey on sweet horny tourists.
10:01 Speaker 06 Yeah. Yeah, that's true. I hate that it happened to you.
10:05 Speaker 07 Thank you so much.
10:06 Speaker 06 What app was this?
10:07 Speaker 07 Grinder.com.
10:08 Speaker 06 This was Grinder.
10:09 Speaker 07 Grinder, full of bots these days.
10:11 Speaker 06 I know it.
10:11 Speaker 07 Hot people, ooh, hey, join my OnlyFans. Like, no, I wanna meet up.
10:16 Speaker 06 They're getting better at too. I think for, for a number of years there, when I was a little bit younger, the Grinder fake accounts, the pictures were so clearly fake.
10:24 Speaker 07 Yeah.
10:24 Speaker 06 It was always like some, some man in like a mostly unbuttoned white shirt on the beach with like a Pinot Grigio. And it was like, you're clearly not in rural Missouri right now. And now they've gotten good at finding like multiple pictures of a real looking person from the area. They're pretty good.
10:41 Speaker 07 My big beef with Grinder right now isn't the bots. It's the, the death of the imagination.
10:49 Speaker 06 Okay.
10:49 Speaker 07 People in these albums are sharing photos that sort of leave nothing to it. They're showing-
10:55 Speaker 06 This is one of my biggest things.
10:56 Speaker 07 It's like graphic, you're showing me a dick in your ass. You're showing me an imagine, there's no, like, write a, write a poem, write, write something like, there's nothing. It's so graphically explicit, like, there's, the mind isn't engaged. It's just body, like, plug and play. This is your thing also?
11:14 Speaker 06 I'm with you. I'm so excited to hear you say this, cause I have been saying, I don't send nudes at all. I don't do it.
11:19 Speaker 07 Oh, same.
11:19 Speaker 06 Because I'm like, I'm, there's too many people, I've, I've caught too many people, even, even kind of early in my career, I caught too many people trying to get me to send nudes.
11:27 Speaker 07 They just wanna see the goods.
11:28 Speaker 06 And then they wanna not, they don't wanna hook up. They just wanna like do whatever they wanna do with them.
11:32 Speaker 07 Yeah.
11:32 Speaker 06 And I'm not interested in that.
11:34 Speaker 07 Are you on LPSG?
11:36 Speaker 06 I'm sorry?
11:38 Speaker 07 There's a forum out there.
11:39 Speaker 06 LPSG?
11:40 Speaker 07 Yeah.
11:40 Speaker 06 What is that?
11:41 Speaker 07 Large penis support group. It's where people share the nudes of notable public figures that they've accessed in order to determine if they have LPs.
11:52 Speaker 06 That's horrible.
11:52 Speaker 07 It's terrible.
11:53 Speaker 06 People are really nasty.
11:55 Speaker 07 I have a page there.
11:56 Speaker 06 Yeah.
11:56 Speaker 07 They have nothing on me.
11:57 Speaker 06 Yeah.
11:58 Speaker 07 Also, I'm, I don't.
12:00 Speaker 06 Whoa. I need to check in on that.
12:02 Speaker 07 On the size of my penis?
12:04 Speaker 06 I need to check in on the size of your penis on the chat. No, the forum, I mean, I find that, okay, so anyway, but the, the, the sending of like every angle of your naked body before you meet up with someone, I'm like, the whole fun is that we like meet each other, we make out for a little bit, we feel around, we wonder about what's gonna be going on. Yeah, it's like, this is the fun of it. Why don't you like, you've removed the whole entire enjoyment of the process.
12:27 Speaker 07 Soon you don't even have to meet up. There's probably some weird AI future where you just bloop bloop and then they appear and you don't even, I don't know.
12:34 Speaker 06 Yeah, it really, I don't like it at all. It really makes me sad.
12:38 Speaker 07 Back to like a letter.
12:41 Speaker 06 Okay, so yeah, you and I are.
12:42 Speaker 07 Dearest Caleb Aaron.
12:46 Speaker 07 The evening has descended, but my penis is rising.
12:50 Speaker 06 Yeah, if you sent me that letter, there's a less than zero percentage chance we'd fuck.
12:54 Speaker 07 How's, that's not how percentages work.
12:56 Speaker 06 Yeah, well, it is in this scenario.
12:58 Speaker 07 Oh, okay.
12:58 Speaker 06 Yeah.
12:59 Speaker 07 Welcome to your world.
13:00 Speaker 06 I like it over here.
13:03 Speaker 06 I like it over here. It's good. Everything makes a little bit more sense in my world.
13:06 Speaker 07 Can I tell you my, the catchphrase of the summer?
13:08 Speaker 06 Yeah.
13:09 Speaker 07 Tell a man no. This is the clip. I already know it is.
13:14 Speaker 06 Clip this.
13:14 Speaker 07 Clip this. Tell a man no.
13:17 Speaker 06 Hmm.
13:18 Speaker 07 Get ready for a show.
13:19 Speaker 06 Whoa.
13:21 Speaker 07 Tell a man no, get ready for a show.
13:23 Speaker 06 Tell me about that. What does that mean?
13:25 Speaker 07 All you have to do is tell a man a little itty bitty no, they will put on a production, a little bit of rejection.
13:31 Speaker 06 Yeah.
13:32 Speaker 07 You will see, do this on an early date with someone, do this with a new friend, it, it shows everything about the person.
13:39 Speaker 06 What do you mean?
13:40 Speaker 07 Um.
13:41 Speaker 06 Like, like, no, give me some context.
13:42 Speaker 07 Ask me something.
13:43 Speaker 06 Okay, well, I don't think, okay.
13:45 Speaker 07 Ask me a personal question.
13:46 Speaker 06 Um. What's, uh, what's your, what's your idea of a perfect day?
13:53 Speaker 07 That's a great question. Uh, I don't, I don't want to talk about that.
13:57 Speaker 06 Well, yeah, that's really rude.
14:00 Speaker 07 Oh.
14:02 Speaker 06 Don't you think that's rude?
14:03 Speaker 07 That was rude?
14:04 Speaker 06 That it would be rude if someone asked you such a benign question to say that you don't want to talk about it?
14:08 Speaker 07 Oh, uh, potentially.
14:10 Speaker 06 Let me give you a better one.
14:11 Speaker 07 Yeah.
14:11 Speaker 06 Um.
14:13 Speaker 07 But you also might not be a man in this scenario.
14:16 Speaker 06 I have to be a man in this scenario. I want to be a man in this scenario to make your thing work. Um, let's, let's go out Friday night.
14:22 Speaker 07 No, thank you.
14:25 Speaker 06 Yeah, there is a better way to do that.
14:26 Speaker 07 Hey, I'm busy. I'm busy.
14:28 Speaker 06 That's different than no, though.
14:30 Speaker 07 You want to see how they respond to being told no to.
14:34 Speaker 06 Yeah.
14:34 Speaker 07 Like, oh, can I get the door for you? No, thank you. What do you mean I can't get the door for you? Like, you're gonna see anger.
14:40 Speaker 06 Yeah.
14:40 Speaker 07 You're gonna see playfulness. You'll see how they react to a no.
14:44 Speaker 06 Yeah.
14:44 Speaker 07 And this summer, I was telling men, no, I got shows.
14:47 Speaker 06 Yeah.
14:48 Speaker 07 I got, they put on little song and dances.
14:50 Speaker 06 I got shows!
14:51 Speaker 07 They got angry.
14:52 Speaker 06 I got shows!
14:53 Speaker 07 They did their little dances.
14:55 Speaker 06 Yeah. And what did you learn?
14:57 Speaker 07 What did I learn? That it's not, uh, to hold firm to it. Don't give in.
15:04 Speaker 06 Yeah.
15:04 Speaker 07 Just because of their oversized emotional reaction to that no.
15:07 Speaker 06 Yeah.
15:07 Speaker 07 Like, maintain your no. Don't personalize their reaction. It's something they have. Even you being like, that was rude, is based on like, your understanding of like, social etiquettes and norms. Like, oh, I didn't, I didn't mean to be rude. I just don't want to talk about that.
15:22 Speaker 06 Yeah. Well, I do think, yeah, I think that's totally fine. It's totally fine for someone to say, I think both sides are fine. It's totally fine for someone to say, that was rude, and for you to then say, oh, I wasn't trying to be rude. If, if I experienced an encounter in dating where I thought someone was rude, I would say, that was rude. And if they said, oh, I wasn't trying to be rude, I'd be like, okay. That, that is enough.
15:42 Speaker 07 Perfect interaction.
15:43 Speaker 06 Yeah, that's a perfect interaction. I think there is something that like, conflict is not inherently, I've encountered a lot of people.
15:50 Speaker 07 Abuse, Sarah Shulman.
15:52 Speaker 06 What is that?
15:53 Speaker 07 Conflict is not abuse. It's a book she wrote. Sarah Shulman.
15:56 Speaker 06 Oh, I don't know who that is. Who is she?
15:57 Speaker 07 Um, she wrote Rent, and it was stolen by Jonathan Larson.
16:02 Speaker 06 Obsessed.
16:03 Speaker 07 She's a lesbian scholar, um, wrote, oh my god, I feel like a queer elder right now. My god. What did, what was the first book she wrote? People in Trouble. That, that inspired, uh, it was stolen by Jonathan Larson to make Rent. And what did I read of hers? There's a family book about how therapists and people need to intervene in homophobic family units that we like celebrate and worship the family like, oh, the parents are always right, let them do. And it's like, no, if the parents are homophobic, the state slash a therapist slash community members need to intervene.
16:38 Speaker 06 Yeah.
16:39 Speaker 07 I forget what the title of that one was. Do we, um, is that a skill?
16:44 Speaker 06 Yeah. What's the, what's the last name?
16:45 Speaker 07 Sarah Schul- am I getting her name wrong? Sarah Schulman?
16:48 Speaker 06 I don't know.
16:49 Speaker 07 I feel like the lesbians are gonna be really mad if I got that name wrong.
16:52 Speaker 06 Don't worry, they were mad at me last week.
16:54 Speaker 07 Oh, what'd you do?
16:55 Speaker 06 Oh, I was talking about, there's this, there's this phenomenon that happens sometimes on this show where if I-
17:00 Speaker 07 Phenomenon.
17:00 Speaker 06 If I make any joke about another group, there's like 12 people from that group that are like, why would you be speaking on this? And it's like, because I can and I want to. And you need to grow up. And I'll keep doing it as well.
17:11 Speaker 08 Is that your right?
17:12 Speaker 06 Yeah, and it is, and I will. That's my job, actually.
17:14 Speaker 07 It's literally, yeah.
17:15 Speaker 06 Did we find a chance?
17:16 Speaker 08 Uh, there's a lot. Was it fiction or nonfiction what you're looking for?
17:19 Speaker 07 Uh, People in Trouble was her fiction work, but the nonfiction was?
17:22 Speaker 08 There's My American History: Lesbian and Gay Life During the Reagan-Bush Years, Stage-Struck Theater Aids in the Marketing of Gay America, Ties That Bind.
17:31 Speaker 07 Ties That Bind.
17:32 Speaker 08 There you go.
17:33 Speaker 06 And what is, what is Ties That Bind?
17:35 Speaker 07 That's the homophobia one.
17:36 Speaker 06 That's the interview.
17:36 Speaker 07 And then The Conflict is Not Abuse is her most recent one, which I haven't read.
17:40 Speaker 06 Yeah.
17:41 Speaker 07 With a head, with a name like that, you kinda-
17:42 Speaker 06 I mean-
17:43 Speaker 07 You don't have to read the book.
17:44 Speaker 06 That is, that is, there's something I've been-
17:45 Speaker 07 Like the let them theory.
17:46 Speaker 06 Yeah.
17:47 Speaker 07 You don't have to read the books, just let them.
17:48 Speaker 06 Hmm.
17:50 Speaker 07 Sorry.
17:51 Speaker 06 No.
17:51 Speaker 08 You were saying?
17:52 Speaker 06 That is something I've been thinking a lot about is, um, conflict is not like, yeah, it's not abuse, it's not inherently a bad thing, that someone, you're allowed to have your thing and someone is allowed to have an opposition to it, and you can probably both get to a place of being like, oh, okay, understood.
18:05 Speaker 07 In fact, it's healthy and good that you both leave that as still individuals.
18:09 Speaker 06 Yeah.
18:10 Speaker 07 Like with your own ideas and thoughts. My dad, God forbid I'm citing him, said-
18:15 Speaker 06 And I'm citing the dark magic on this one. But yeah, I'm gonna invoke my father.
18:19 Speaker 08 You brought him up.
18:21 Speaker 06 You brought him up.
18:22 Speaker 07 If two people, Caleb-
18:24 Speaker 06 Well, you wanna talk about my dad?
18:25 Speaker 07 I told you not to.
18:25 Speaker 06 Yeah.
18:27 Speaker 07 Welcome, Zach. Stop it. Frank Zimmerman is not here. Um, if two people agree on everything, only one of them is thinking.
18:33 Speaker 06 Yeah. Ooh.
18:34 Speaker 08 That actually is really insightful.
18:36 Speaker 07 He has like four or five things, and then my therapist has like six or seven things that are just like Bible verse quality things you wanna cite for your whole life.
18:45 Speaker 06 Therapist beats dad.
18:46 Speaker 07 Therapist is down.
18:48 Speaker 06 Yeah, first of all.
18:49 Speaker 07 Or sort of the nonjudgmental, shameless, kind, loving and supportive, uh, father figure.
18:55 Speaker 06 Yeah.
18:55 Speaker 07 Of course, he's a 55 year old, straight, white man.
18:58 Speaker 06 Naturally.
18:59 Speaker 07 In Chicago, of all places.
19:01 Speaker 06 Gay?
19:01 Speaker 07 Changed my life. Straight, straight.
19:03 Speaker 06 Wow.
19:04 Speaker 07 I've had gay therapists and it's, never took off.
19:07 Speaker 06 Why not?
19:08 Speaker 07 For various reasons.
19:10 Speaker 06 Yeah.
19:11 Speaker 07 One, in Chicago, just would sit there.
19:17 Speaker 06 What do you mean?
19:18 Speaker 07 Just, give me something.
19:19 Speaker 06 Just wouldn't say a word.
19:20 Speaker 07 Just like.
19:21 Speaker 06 Oh, I don't like that.
19:23 Speaker 07 Like, kick us off. And then I had one in New York who was like, more insecure and anxious than me. And I was like, that can't be how this work. We set up a first meeting and I was like, hey, like, if, yeah, if this works out, I'd love to, like, keep seeing, keep, uh, make another appointment. And he's like, what do you mean, if this works out? Of course it's gonna work out.
19:43 Speaker 06 Oh, no.
19:44 Speaker 07 Oh, no, honey.
19:46 Speaker 06 Not iron sharpening iron, please. This can't be.
19:50 Speaker 07 It was, it was dull, sharpening dull.
19:52 Speaker 06 That's crazy, dude.
19:53 Speaker 07 Have you had gay therapies?
19:55 Speaker 06 I don't really do therapy.
19:56 Speaker 07 God, you really are enlightened from, from the jump.
19:59 Speaker 06 Oh, I don't think so. I mean, I, I feel good, but I think I could probably, there's, there's times where I need therapy. I just haven't, uh, made the leap back to it. I did, I, when I say I don't really do therapy, I mean, lately in my adult life, I did therapy a little bit in college. It was fine. Um, but I kind of got over my big thing at that time and then everything since then. I got a lot of tools from that. And then, I don't know, I've just felt like I can mostly handle things.
20:23 Speaker 07 Remember our first lunch forever ago? I was like, Caleb, someone, you know who you are.
20:27 Speaker 06 I do, I think.
20:28 Speaker 07 In a very confident way. And you've ta- told me about saying no to things before. You're just like, you're very sure of yourself and I admire that.
20:36 Speaker 06 Thank you. Do you feel like you know who you are?
20:38 Speaker 07 I'm starting a process of learning who I am.
20:41 Speaker 06 Yeah.
20:41 Speaker 07 Post, putting other people's needs before mine.
20:44 Speaker 06 And when did that process begin? The summer? Is it the, the, the unmentionable summer?
20:49 Speaker 07 I've always been like, I process some of the, I grew up super religious evangelical. Thought I was going to hell. I've processed like some of that, but I'm realizing anew that those wounds by keeping the relationship with my family, those, I'm still receiving some abuse.
21:07 Speaker 06 Yeah, you've given a lot. I noticed from afar. You've given a lot to your family.
21:10 Speaker 07 Yeah. And I thought it was noble. Um, this is sort of on the topic of the, the book I'm writing.
21:15 Speaker 06 The new one.
21:16 Speaker 07 Uh, the new book. It's called Ship Mother.
21:18 Speaker 06 Yeah.
21:19 Speaker 07 Uh, it's, I took my mom on a week long cruise, my conservative evangelical mother in order to fundamentally change and alter her religious and political beliefs. And we all know how that turned out.
21:29 Speaker 06 And it worked.
21:30 Speaker 07 Uh, it worked. She's, she's been, she's running with.
21:33 Speaker 06 She's been door knocking for Mom Donnie.
21:34 Speaker 07 Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's.
21:37 Speaker 07 She loves that free bus.
21:38 Speaker 06 Yeah.
21:38 Speaker 07 Um, I, uh, yeah. And so, but what I've, I don't want to, well, I mean, I'll give it away because the book may never come out or I might die tomorrow. Um, what I learned, me being like obsessed with her and trying to understand her was at the expense of me being obsessed with myself and learning who I am. Like, why am I trying to, why does this woman believe I'm going to hell and sort of can't accept this, this queer part of my life? I, um, I caught her in a lie.
22:07 Speaker 06 Whoa.
22:08 Speaker 07 I caught her in a lie.
22:09 Speaker 06 What was the lie?
22:10 Speaker 07 It's a big lie that she.
22:11 Speaker 06 You don't want to tell, do you want to say for the book? I don't want to pressure you into giving away a big, good lie.
22:14 Speaker 07 I mean, if everyone listening could go buy the first book.
22:18 Speaker 06 Yes.
22:19 Speaker 07 That'll help the second book maybe exist.
22:22 Speaker 06 Okay. So everyone go buy the Zach's first book, which sits in my home beautifully.
22:25 Speaker 07 Oh, thank you. Untouched.
22:28 Speaker 06 It's in a, it's in a mausoleum.
22:31 Speaker 07 No, everyone prays to it when they come in.
22:33 Speaker 06 No, it is touched and has a great cover.
22:35 Speaker 07 Do I mind giving that away? Yeah. Well, I mean, it's not, I don't know if this will be in the book. That she loves me unconditionally was a lie.
22:42 Speaker 06 Yeah. And how did you catch her in that?
22:45 Speaker 07 I came out to her as bisexual, uh, or let her know I was dating a woman this summer. Uh, and she said, I've been praying for this, which is funny and hurtful at the same time, which is sort of her. I know that she hid it behind humor, which is what's tricky. Like, oh, that's actually really hurtful, but hilarious.
23:02 Speaker 06 Yeah.
23:02 Speaker 07 Thanks for the content, mom. Um, and as I was dating a woman, she was asking more questions about it. She sent us like a present, a game for us to play. And I was like, oh, would you have done that if this was a man? You can be honest with me. And she said, probably not.
23:18 Speaker 08 Yeah.
23:18 Speaker 06 And so a couple of weeks later, I was like, hey, how do you show love? Oh, you ask questions, you send gifts, right? Mom, excuse me, I'm not getting choked up. That was like a belch.
23:28 Speaker 08 Yeah, they just had a whole variety of coffee.
23:30 Speaker 06 Yeah.
23:30 Speaker 07 We're at like a.
23:32 Speaker 06 I'm at like a 20% chance of crying on the pod.
23:34 Speaker 08 Nice. I'm, I would say.
23:36 Speaker 06 Have you ever?
23:37 Speaker 08 Have I cried on this pod? Yes.
23:41 Speaker 06 Oh.
23:41 Speaker 08 Have I? I think. Didn't, hmm. Yeah, I can't remember what episode it was.
23:48 Speaker 06 I cried on a bonus segment.
23:50 Speaker 08 Yeah.
23:50 Speaker 06 Once with Bob.
23:51 Speaker 08 With Bob, yeah.
23:52 Speaker 06 Um, have I cried on the main show?
23:55 Speaker 07 Mom stuff.
23:55 Speaker 06 Trying to think.
23:57 Speaker 07 Yeah, I don't. You didn't cry during either of the Kelly episodes.
24:01 Speaker 06 No, Kelly cried instantly on the Kelly episode. My mom.
24:05 Speaker 07 I don't know.
24:05 Speaker 08 Oh, your mom.
24:06 Speaker 06 I feel like she's a crier.
24:08 Speaker 07 I feel like you've gotten choked up or like teared up a little bit.
24:11 Speaker 06 Yeah, I cry. I mean, I was, I've, I cried to you like two days ago. I cry, I just usually on the show, we, it doesn't usually go to a place that gets me to cry.
24:19 Speaker 07 Gotcha, gotcha.
24:19 Speaker 06 But I'm open to it. What's crying on camera? I think it'd be very chic.
24:22 Speaker 07 I, we're at 25% now.
24:24 Speaker 06 Oh, we got.
24:26 Speaker 07 Yeah, feeling a little safer.
24:27 Speaker 06 You got safe. Baby, you are safe here.
24:30 Speaker 07 But I confronted my mom, I was like, oh, it seems like the level of your love is conditional based on the gender of my partner.
24:36 Speaker 06 Yeah.
24:36 Speaker 07 And she's like, ah, ah, ah, ah, well, ah, ah, ah.
24:41 Speaker 07 I, I, I, well, you know, I believe what I believe. I was like, oh, I'm just disappointed in that. And she's like, well, ah.
24:47 Speaker 06 Yeah.
24:48 Speaker 07 And I just stood, stood my ground to co-opt a phrase.
24:51 Speaker 06 Yeah. This is stand your ground state.
24:53 Speaker 07 Yeah.
24:54 Speaker 06 Let's just stand your ground state.
24:55 Speaker 07 And do your own safe.
24:56 Speaker 06 Yeah.
24:57 Speaker 07 And yeah, it was just eye opening to me like, oh, you've said that for so long. I love you unconditionally. We had a funny, you, your mom called when we were having brunch and I, or I asked where you got all your confidence. And you said my mom.
25:09 Speaker 06 Yeah.
25:09 Speaker 07 She like praised me every day when I was a kid.
25:11 Speaker 06 Yeah.
25:11 Speaker 07 And I was like, I called my mom after that. I was like, hey, can, will you like praise me?
25:18 Speaker 06 Sorry, that's so sweet. I love you. That's so sweet.
25:21 Speaker 07 Is it sweet?
25:22 Speaker 06 That is funny though.
25:23 Speaker 07 You're almost a 40 year old man. Why do you need your mom to praise you?
25:26 Speaker 06 Yeah.
25:26 Speaker 07 And I was like, oh.
25:28 Speaker 06 Cause you didn't when I wasn't 40.
25:31 Speaker 06 Yeah, cuz you didn't do it when I needed it most.
25:33 Speaker 07 And then the next day, I got like, you're amazing, my amazing son.
25:37 Speaker 06 That's really sweet. That's effort.
25:38 Speaker 07 Yeah.
25:39 Speaker 06 Yeah, maybe, you know, day late, dollar short.
25:42 Speaker 07 Yeah, and there might be a word for a person who does that sort of push, pull, degrade, praise, degrade, praise.
25:54 Speaker 06 Yeah.
25:54 Speaker 07 That I hesitate to say.
25:57 Speaker 06 Yeah, I, yeah, it's really, it's tough. It's really tough because, I don't know, you oscillate sometimes with parents between, it's, you know, the whole, like, it's their first time on earth, kind of thing where you're like, they're a person who's figuring it out. You're oscillating. Between like that and then, um, also, being like, well, I was the child. I don't, I shouldn't have to have this much grace for you.
26:22 Speaker 07 1,000%. My dad, I asked him once, like, what, what's, what is a good dad?
26:27 Speaker 06 Yeah.
26:28 Speaker 07 Thinking, oh, he had some philosophy. He's raised four kids. We're all like reasonable adults, productive members of society. And he goes, I don't know, I didn't have one.
26:36 Speaker 06 Yeah.
26:37 Speaker 07 I'm like, oh, you're trapped.
26:39 Speaker 06 Yeah.
26:39 Speaker 07 You're, you're, you're 12.
26:41 Speaker 06 Yeah.
26:41 Speaker 07 You're 60, but you're 12.
26:43 Speaker 06 Yeah.
26:43 Speaker 07 And it comes back to one of the Bible verses of my therapist, everyone is a fourth grader.
26:48 Speaker 06 This has been a thing that's been coming up a lot lately. I've seen, I've seen a bunch of-
26:51 Speaker 07 You're anti, you're skeptical.
26:52 Speaker 06 No, I've seen a bunch of stuff online, like, everyone's 12 now. Like, everyone's-
26:56 Speaker 07 We were always 12.
26:57 Speaker 06 Yeah.
26:57 Speaker 07 We've always been 12.
26:58 Speaker 06 Yeah, I don't-
26:59 Speaker 07 Don't you feel 12?
27:00 Speaker 06 No, I feel that I've always been 30.
27:04 Speaker 06 I feel that when I was 12, I was 30. I've felt 60 since the day I was born.
27:09 Speaker 09 Whenever fall comes back around, it always feels like a fresh start. This year, I've been layering in some styles from the new Lululemon fall drop, because the weather is shifting and I find I have to be ready for the entire day and not just one part of it. Lululemon's fall line has some really versatile transitional pieces, so I can just wake up, throw on a matching set, add a jacket or a fleece, and head out, knowing that I'll feel comfortable enough to go wherever the day takes me. Check out the new fall arrivals in store and online now at lululemon.com.
27:38 Speaker 01 Ugh, I hate Mondays.
27:40 Speaker 02 King's Hawaiian cinnamon swirl bite?
27:42 Speaker 01 Uh, Taylor Hansen? Sure, I'll try one. Mmm.
27:47 Speaker 03 Hey, let's get back to work, please.
27:49 Speaker 01 But Taylor Hansen's making my day way better with these new soft and swirly King's Hawaiian cinnamon bites.
27:53 Speaker 03 Taylor Hansen? Nice.
27:55 Speaker 02 Try one.
27:57 Speaker 03 Mmm.
28:01 Speaker 04 King's Hawaiian cinnamon bites. There's nothing like it.
28:08 Speaker 06 And I really do. I mean, I remember being, being 12 and being like, why do I not relate to any of these people? The other 12 year olds? And I'm like, God, I wish I was the adult. They seem like so much more on my page.
28:20 Speaker 07 Oh, the, the teachers and I shared a special bond.
28:23 Speaker 06 Yes, of course.
28:24 Speaker 07 Right, well, of course, every little teacher.
28:26 Speaker 06 Yes.
28:26 Speaker 07 Oh, little straight A. Zach.
28:28 Speaker 06 Of course.
28:28 Speaker 07 My legacy, my poor sister.
28:30 Speaker 06 How so?
28:31 Speaker 07 She was two years behind me. And once the teacher went down and saw Zimmerman on that list, they were like, "Oh, I had your brother." She was just in my shadow.
28:38 Speaker 06 Oh.
28:39 Speaker 07 Poor soul.
28:40 Speaker 06 I bet that was hard for her.
28:41 Speaker 07 Yeah, she's doing well now. She teaches, of all things. Trauma-informed education in South Carolina public school system.
28:47 Speaker 06 Wow.
28:47 Speaker 07 One of the most incredible, just doing it for all the right reasons.
28:52 Speaker 06 It's a big, I was actually just this morning thinking about how big of a swing it is with teachers. There's like, one end, it's, it's very, uh, it's very polarized. There's not much in the middle.
29:00 Speaker 07 Come for teachers.
29:01 Speaker 06 No.
29:01 Speaker 07 Caleb Hearon hates teachers.
29:03 Speaker 06 Well, listen to the take because
29:04 Speaker 07 Overpaid.
29:05 Speaker 06 They, not, certainly not overpaid, but half of them are the sweetest, most angelic, like truly in it. Sounds like your sister, in it for the right reasons, want to like change the future and be there for kids.
29:15 Speaker 07 Hmm.
29:16 Speaker 06 And all you can do is like tip your hat and admire them and ask, what more can we do for you? And half of them are the biggest reject losers who like miss high school and middle school and wish they could do it over again so badly.
29:25 Speaker 07 Miss Bryant.
29:26 Speaker 06 I'm saying, it's like a
29:28 Speaker 07 Name her.
29:29 Speaker 06 It's like ends of the spectrum. And I think there's more of the good ones, but I'm saying it would be ridiculous to pretend that we don't know that some teachers are just like, blood thirsty, like rejected losers who feel bad because they were bullied in high school.
29:42 Speaker 07 Same with parents or people that just have some vendetta and bitterness.
29:45 Speaker 06 Same with comedians.
29:46 Speaker 07 Yes.
29:47 Speaker 06 And we don't even actually have the, the angelic spectrum. We just
29:51 Speaker 07 We're all just shades of demons. It's like, how hurt are you is the only. Yeah, yeah. So I'm not, yeah, I'm not proclaiming to be above. I'm just saying it is an interesting thing, that profession. One of the most interesting teachers I had was my math teacher in high school. And she was a beautiful woman. And at the senior breakfast, she sang That Don't Impress Me Much by Shania Twain. God love. And would cast the cutest boy seniors. Uh oh. Uh oh, hey. She was like, she would come over and like, that don't impress me much. Oops.
30:26 Speaker 07 Uh oh, not that. Not that. She also, she wrote me, uh, letters of recommendation that changed my life. She was, gave me four of them for colleges and I only needed three. Yeah. And it was wrong of me to do, but I wanted to look at what it said, cause I'm a words of affirmation girl and I want to see what it is. And it goes, Zach is one of the best students I've ever had, uh, in all my careers of teaching. She is sure to excel at whatever she does. Wow, but that actually did something huge for you. I was like, she copy pasted, but also she knew. Yeah. Maybe she knew. Kind of nailed it on accident. And I got it. Accidental affirmation, let's go. But then Ms. Bryant was the bad end of the spectrum. Eighth grade, English. Yeah. Evil woman, had us do resuscitations. What's up?
31:10 Speaker 07 Uh, she had us memorize and recite things, but she called it a resuscitation. Yeah, how about a resuscitation? When you're dying. Yeah, weird. And she gave me my only zero. Whoa. Oh, evil. The tears are coming. Thirty, thirty percent. Thirty percent. She, it was back when, instead of like reading a book, you had to do like a hundred different activities to do the book or whatever, little fun things. And she gave, one way to earn points was to draw a picture of a scene from the book. And she gave us all a piece of tracing paper. And so in my book, it was a beautiful intricate scene that had already been drawn. So I used the tracing paper to go over it. Zero plagiarism. Whoa. My mom, love her to death. Rabble rouser, doesn't love me unconditionally, but fights when necessary.
31:55 Speaker 07 Loves a good fight. Loves a good fight. The 2024 election.
32:02 Speaker 07 January 6th. Wishes she could have been there. Charlie Kirk. She wrote, I am Charlie in the sand in Myrtle Beach. That's, that's, that's a fun thing for our listeners to know about Patty Zimmerman. She loves a fight. She called the principal. Why is, why did my son receive a zero? The principal calls the teacher. Zach gets another chance. The next day I drew the most beautiful picture of the scene from that. She goes to the beach, writes, I am Zach in the sand.
32:34 Speaker 07 Je suis Zachary. Je suis Zach. Oh yeah. She fought for me. Also came to school and had me removed when condoms were discussed in sex ed, which did lead to me using Saran Wrap once in an early sexual encounter, but. Which works. It, I don't have a child. Yeah. I don't know. I am not father. I don't know if it's my poor sperm or the, the clinging power of Saran Wrap. It's hard to say. Are they a sponsor? Yes, Saran Wrap, yes. Good, good. They run two million of ads on here. Yeah. This, you're doing well. Yeah. Saran runs two million of ads on here. This is, you've really, this. You like the new studio? I love it. We have much to do, but we're, we're really getting there. Everyone's working very hard on it. I, the pod is great. You, may I praise you?
33:18 Speaker 07 Uh, briefly. And we might cut it. Does it make you uncomfortable? You've just, you're a good egg who's building something really special and doing it your way and bringing people up with you. And I don't think you're evil. Why was there a question mark on it? Just playful. Yeah. Okay. Just playful.
33:39 Speaker 07 Just being a little playful. I was giving room for a further bit, but I liked that. Yeah. Okay. That's nice. Everyone has a little. Evil. Yeah. I clocked myself at like 3%. I went on a date with someone who said 60%. Them? They said 60 for them? Whoa. She. Yeah. I said they. Did you like that? That was nice. Yeah, but, but she. Yeah. But I, but I gave, I left a really open door there. Wasn't that nice? Open door. And I, I let you know what's inside the door. Yeah. Behind door number one. Was she? A woman. Open the door. She. She. It's three doors. Your children listeners won't know this. The Monty Hall problem. It was on Let's Make a Deal. There were three doors. Yeah. And you would open, you pick a door to win a prize and then he opens up one of the other doors, lets you know it's not the prize. And then you can either switch or stay. Yeah. What do you think gives you the best odds? To stay.
34:25 Speaker 07 Exactly. Yeah. No, switch. Whoa.
34:30 Speaker 07 The door you picked has a one in three chance. The door that you didn't pick has a two out of three chance.
34:36 Speaker 06 Whoa.
34:38 Speaker 07 Because.
34:40 Speaker 06 I said so.
34:41 Speaker 07 Something math, it's mathy.
34:43 Speaker 06 Yeah.
34:44 Speaker 07 Because Monty opening a door he knew which didn't, there was more information. It's not just 50 50. There's extra information. All of which is to say, there's three doors and behind one's a she, one's a he, one's a they.
34:54 Speaker 06 Yeah.
34:54 Speaker 07 And that could be kind of a fun way to, to date.
34:59 Speaker 06 Yeah, a doors based dating system.
35:01 Speaker 07 Door based dating system.
35:02 Speaker 06 Doors based dating, we're gonna start a dating app called Doors.
35:05 Speaker 07 Doors. I do think we're, dating apps should have videos. Either we should do a love is blind dating app where you don't get to see the person and you only connect. Okay, superficial Sally.
35:16 Speaker 06 No, I just think it's important to see someone. I like to see someone's eyes. I like to see someone's vibe. I like to see the pictures they choose.
35:22 Speaker 07 That's interesting. I think we should do a little video then.
35:25 Speaker 06 Yeah, I think videos are fun.
35:25 Speaker 07 We should normalize video.
35:27 Speaker 06 Hinge has video. I also like the voice note.
35:29 Speaker 07 Oh, voice, I know instantly.
35:30 Speaker 06 Voice is fun.
35:31 Speaker 07 Oh, you get so much information from voice.
35:33 Speaker 06 Voice is good.
35:34 Speaker 07 More than pictures even, I think.
35:35 Speaker 06 For sure.
35:35 Speaker 07 Cause you get like pacing, tone, personality.
35:38 Speaker 06 Yeah.
35:39 Speaker 07 You can fall in love with the voice.
35:40 Speaker 06 Oh, for sure.
35:40 Speaker 07 Hashtag love is blind.
35:41 Speaker 06 Her.
35:42 Speaker 07 Love is blind is her.
35:44 Speaker 06 Joaquin did this.
35:44 Speaker 07 Oh, I know.
35:45 Speaker 06 Joaquin did this.
35:46 Speaker 07 Everybody, now erotica's on AI. Now, yeah.
35:51 Speaker 06 I don't like it.
35:51 Speaker 07 We're not leaving the house.
35:54 Speaker 06 I am.
35:54 Speaker 07 You can just on Grindr, get all the pictures you need from every angle and then just talk to the AI bot.
36:01 Speaker 06 I like Grindr, but I, I, yeah, the point is to, I enjoy Grindr. I actually, I frequently have like pretty fun conversations on Grindr. I'm like.
36:10 Speaker 07 If people are willing.
36:11 Speaker 06 Yeah, I'll chit chat on there.
36:12 Speaker 07 Sometimes if you deviate from the, hey, hey, what's up, sup? What are you into? What are you into? You're seeing like a freak.
36:18 Speaker 06 For sure. And I get that. Sometimes you're so horny that you can't entertain like a whimsical little convo. Been there, been that.
36:24 Speaker 07 What do you think about a bar that lets everyone know how horny you are? Sort of mental state.
36:29 Speaker 06 I think that would be really, I think that should be on like, I think that should be on Slack.
36:35 Speaker 06 That should be on every application.
36:37 Speaker 07 Hey, does anyone know the status of this report? Someone reach out to Susan. Ooh, she's at a nine. She's really horny.
36:45 Speaker 06 She's rubbing against her desk right now.
36:47 Speaker 07 Let's give her a minute.
36:48 Speaker 06 They should have it on DoorDash, like, hey, your driver's really horny, just.
36:53 Speaker 06 Honestly, I've had some cute DoorDash drivers that I've been like, if I knew, I would, I'd let you in.
36:57 Speaker 07 I've had a UPS or two that there's a vibe.
37:00 Speaker 06 Yeah.
37:01 Speaker 07 Never sealed the deal.
37:02 Speaker 06 I haven't either, never with a, never with a delivery driver. There was one Task Rabbit once.
37:07 Speaker 07 A Task Rabbit.
37:07 Speaker 06 I didn't sleep with him, but there was a Task Rabbit that I'm like, if I wanted it, it's on.
37:10 Speaker 07 You know what they say about rabbits? They fuck like rabbits.
37:14 Speaker 06 Made for life.
37:15 Speaker 07 They're made for life. No, they have so much sex.
37:20 Speaker 06 They fuck a lot, yeah.
37:20 Speaker 07 They're gay, they make, yeah, they're.
37:24 Speaker 06 Rabbits mate for life.
37:25 Speaker 07 They're made for life, and they don't get ulcers.
37:27 Speaker 06 What?
37:28 Speaker 07 I don't know.
37:28 Speaker 06 That's, is that true?
37:29 Speaker 07 Zebras don't.
37:30 Speaker 06 Oh, my God.
37:31 Speaker 07 Cause they don't worry, cause they're animals.
37:32 Speaker 06 Yeah.
37:33 Speaker 07 We worry.
37:34 Speaker 06 We do.
37:34 Speaker 07 As humans.
37:35 Speaker 06 What are you, what are you unworried about? What's making you happy? What are you looking forward to?
37:38 Speaker 07 Oh, my God. Joe, I'm gonna go on a, a fall foliage cruise.
37:44 Speaker 06 Fun.
37:44 Speaker 07 It's like a four hour, it was recommended by another comedian, and it's gonna be so nice this weekend. You just look at all the trees, there's beers, but I think I'll just have a coffee. And just nature, we forget about nature.
37:55 Speaker 06 Yeah.
37:56 Speaker 07 We as in I.
37:57 Speaker 06 We as in me specifically.
37:58 Speaker 07 Me specifically, not a, you forget, you think like, oh, there's no, nothing here, and it's like, no, there's everything here.
38:05 Speaker 06 Where's the tour?
38:06 Speaker 07 Uh, it goes up the Hudson, up the, up the Hudson.
38:08 Speaker 06 Fun.
38:09 Speaker 07 I said that twice to make sure.
38:11 Speaker 06 Just to make sure that it's up the Hudson?
38:13 Speaker 07 Yeah.
38:13 Speaker 06 I think it goes up the Hudson.
38:14 Speaker 07 I'm looking forward to that, and then I'm scheming, I, uh, am not going home for Thanksgiving this year.
38:20 Speaker 06 Really?
38:21 Speaker 07 Because, whew, it's, it's a Trump dinner this year, because my sister is going with her husband and her kids to Guatemala to visit his family. And then my other sister and I were like, this drops our numbers. It'd be like six of us and four Trumpers and just me and my sister, and I was like, I don't know if I wanna go through that.
38:40 Speaker 06 Yeah, don't do it.
38:41 Speaker 07 Yeah, so big old boundary, so I'm figuring out what I'm gonna do.
38:44 Speaker 06 Yeah, these things are supposed to be fun.
38:46 Speaker 07 Yeah, I don't, you don't have to do things you're not excited about. Has anyone seen this TikTok of the guy who says an alien's in his body? And then a kid is like, what's the, what do I need to know? And he's like, I've told you everything you need to know. Uh, do what excites you to the best of your ability with no expectation of the outcome.
39:02 Speaker 06 Missed this one. I missed this one. I haven't seen this one.
39:05 Speaker 07 I'll do it a couple more times.
39:07 Speaker 06 Run it by me. Just let's make sure we got it.
39:09 Speaker 07 Yeah. Um, but it seems so silly. Do what excites you is such a simple idea. But for so much of my life and often for people, you're doing what you think you're supposed to do to be a good son or a good employee or a good community member. It's like, do what is exciting to you because that is infectious and it gets everyone excited. And then we're changing the world with excitement.
39:31 Speaker 06 Yeah. Yes, mostly. No, I come up with a problem with it because I, I have said that the world would just be a much better place if everyone, yeah, did what made them happy. If, if everyone truly just focused on what made them happy, that actually we talk about this sometimes in the tenant union that like you're acting in your self-interest will actually most of the time benefit everybody. When, when you're talking to working people, when you're talking to billionaires, you obviously can't talk like that. But that's the issue is when you say, do the thing that would make you excited. Some people are excited by being mean and bad. Unfortunately, and I think it's a small number, but that's why the, it can't be a universal maxim. Because even though most of us are excited by good and kindness and happiness and joy, there are some people who are excited by nastiness and that's, it's tough.
40:16 Speaker 07 It's, yeah, you forget those people exist, or I forget that they exist. I think they're like over there on the TV or doing awful things in, in other cities. But it's like, oh no, they're your mom.
40:26 Speaker 06 Yeah.
40:27 Speaker 07 They're your friend.
40:28 Speaker 06 Yeah.
40:29 Speaker 07 Or could be.
40:29 Speaker 06 They're, yeah, they're around and it's, it's.
40:31 Speaker 07 Or they're you on a really, really, really bad day.
40:35 Speaker 06 Yeah.
40:36 Speaker 07 Like we all have the capacity for great good and great evil. And what makes choosing good powerful is that you reject the evil.
40:45 Speaker 06 Yeah. Do we all have the capacity for great evil?
40:54 Speaker 07 There's two buttons before you.
40:58 Speaker 07 You're going with that one?
40:59 Speaker 06 No, I'm pointing them out.
41:01 Speaker 07 One, um, kills a man.
41:05 Speaker 06 Okay.
41:06 Speaker 07 And one gives you one billion dollars to invest in changing the world.
41:13 Speaker 06 Yeah.
41:14 Speaker 07 I don't know if this is good or not.
41:15 Speaker 06 I'm, so far it seems only really clear cut.
41:20 Speaker 07 You could save, uh, a malaria net costs $23 and you can save, you could save a million lives. Somebody do the math. You could do, or you kill this one guy.
41:30 Speaker 06 I don't think you got the dilemma right because the question is, you haven't presented.
41:35 Speaker 07 The train is, the train is going 60 miles an hour.
41:39 Speaker 06 Right. It leaves New Brunswick.
41:41 Speaker 07 There's an old lady in the boat and there's a, a doctor in the boat.
41:45 Speaker 06 The button, the moral dilemma you posed was there's two buttons. One kills one guy and one saves a bunch of lives.
41:51 Speaker 07 So what are you gonna do?
41:52 Speaker 06 Save a bunch of lives.
41:54 Speaker 07 Well, it's money. Okay. So you would do something evil. You would kill someone for a billion dollars.
41:58 Speaker 06 No, you didn't present the buttons right is what I'm telling you. You know, you're not presenting the problem you think you're presenting.
42:03 Speaker 07 Present it to me.
42:04 Speaker 06 You said this problem kills a, this button kills a man.
42:06 Speaker 07 Yep.
42:07 Speaker 06 And this button.
42:08 Speaker 07 Gives you one billion dollars.
42:11 Speaker 06 That's not a moral dilemma.
42:12 Speaker 07 I was trying to make you take the money and I knew I needed to say something good to get you to take the money.
42:18 Speaker 06 Yeah, but taking the money is not anywhere equivalent to killing a man. It's not the evils are not equivalent.
42:26 Speaker 07 You kill the man?
42:26 Speaker 06 Wait, I feel crazy. What are you talking about? Are you doing a bit right now?
42:33 Speaker 07 No, I'm so sorry.
42:37 Speaker 06 I'm like, Zach, you have not set up a dilemma.
42:40 Speaker 07 I'm crying. No, it's the same button.
42:44 Speaker 06 Okay.
42:45 Speaker 07 One button. There's one button.
42:48 Speaker 06 For a moment I felt hot.
42:51 Speaker 07 You're welcome.
42:52 Speaker 06 I've been gaslit into.
42:54 Speaker 07 There was always one button, Caleb. What are you talking about?
42:56 Speaker 06 Yeah.
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43:27 Speaker 06 Okay, so what are the buttons? There have to be two buttons because a choice has to exist.
43:31 Speaker 07 You're, no, there's one button. You either press it or not.
43:33 Speaker 06 Okay, so that's the choice. Okay, so there's one button.
43:34 Speaker 07 One button kills a man, but you get a billion dollars.
43:37 Speaker 06 No, I would not take that button.
43:38 Speaker 07 But you're gonna save millions of lives with your billion.
43:41 Speaker 06 I don't, I wouldn't take that button.
43:43 Speaker 07 Okay, then you're good, I guess.
43:44 Speaker 06 I really don't think I would take that button. I wouldn't, I don't think I would. It really depends.
43:48 Speaker 07 You have evil in you?
43:49 Speaker 06 I think I have evil in me. I think everyone, I don't know about evil.
43:52 Speaker 07 You don't think you're capable of great evil?
43:53 Speaker 06 Great, the, specifically the great is the thing I'm asking. And I'm not even asking about myself. I'm asking, do we think everyone has the capacity for great evil?
44:00 Speaker 07 Well, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Do you think if you had complete and total power, you were a billionaire, you could never be tried for a crime? Are you doing only good things?
44:10 Speaker 06 Oh, I, I think so, yeah, but I guess I don't know because it hasn't happened to me.
44:13 Speaker 07 Have you seen Sorry to Bother You?
44:15 Speaker 06 Uh, no, is that, was that Boots Riley who did that?
44:18 Speaker 07 Yeah, yeah. It's sort of the, he's a, well, go watch it. Just the idea of, we all think at this level, we will break down the system when we get there. But if you like get access to power, do you tear things up from the inside or do you enjoy your access to power?
44:37 Speaker 06 I, I've had very, very micro experiences of this that are nowhere compared to what we're talking about. Where I've, we, just this week, I was having a crash out to chance, actually, and a couple other people, about some of the money that we're getting offered at this juncture and who it comes from, and the money is. It was like a little crazy last year, like there would be like an amount of money that you're like, yeah, that would be a lot of money. And this year it has been, I'll, obviously we'll talk about it off mic. There's reasons I can't talk about it, sorry guys. But the specifics of it are-
45:06 Speaker 07 Saran wrap.
45:07 Speaker 06 Oh, it's Saran wrap. It's a lot of money, but like, a thing that I think is not objectively evil, but like, I really don't agree with it and I have concerns about it. Anyway, anyway, there's this very small problem of an ethical dilemma that I've been in this year that has really been tearing me up.
45:23 Speaker 06 And it's hard because I do good things with my money.
45:24 Speaker 07 Right.
45:25 Speaker 06 And so I do go like, oh man, if I took that, I could donate this much to this group and I could take care of this person who needs help. And, but then also, part of the agreement is that I would have to sit here in this chair and tell the people who listen to me, to endorse a thing that I don't believe in.
45:40 Speaker 07 Gotcha, gotcha.
45:41 Speaker 06 So it's a very small version, but it's like, yeah, it's a new thing.
45:44 Speaker 07 Is ICE that bad?
45:46 Speaker 06 That's the thing is I'm, I'm, I'm wanting to run ads for ICE. I want to. But I'm trying to get the number up.
45:51 Speaker 07 I guess, to me, the line from small evil to great evil is just like, the amount of power that you have.
45:57 Speaker 06 Right.
45:58 Speaker 07 Like if you're willing to make the evil choice on a micro scale, like, you'll do the same. Like the extra money isn't gonna, and access to things isn't gonna make you a better person.
46:08 Speaker 06 But I think that spectrum is definitional because I think when you're doing small acts of bad, I wouldn't call it evil.
46:14 Speaker 07 Oh.
46:15 Speaker 06 You know what I'm saying?
46:15 Speaker 07 Would you call it like a little naughty?
46:16 Speaker 06 Like it's like, it's like silly.
46:19 Speaker 07 Silly little girl.
46:21 Speaker 06 I don't know, I don't know, anyway.
46:23 Speaker 07 Great evil. Look at me. Why would I say that?
46:26 Speaker 06 The button dilemma is one of the funniest things. The button dilemma is really cracking me up still because I'm like-
46:31 Speaker 07 I can't believe, you, maybe it's the me, I was messing up the meme. There's a meme where there's two buttons.
46:40 Speaker 06 Yeah, and he's sweating, but they're actually the same choice or the very obvious choice.
46:43 Speaker 07 But I was confusing that with- The box with the button.
46:48 Speaker 06 I understand exactly what you mean. Yes, that there's a box with a button. All you have to do is open it and push it and one thing happens or it doesn't.
46:53 Speaker 07 Hey, I was wrong.
46:55 Speaker 06 It's really funny. I've also done, it's like I, when I try to do, like, sometimes when I try to do, like, spur of the moment, like, the moral problems like that, I do get in my head where I'm like, it's like, the train is leaving and there's an older woman, but there's a younger person and you press or don't press. By the way, someone's wearing a white coat off to the side.
47:12 Speaker 07 Oh, interesting.
47:13 Speaker 06 I get them all mixed up sometimes and I'm like, I don't know, I just, I basically get down to being like.
47:17 Speaker 07 What's the white coat guy doing?
47:18 Speaker 06 Are you good or bad? That's what I want to ask.
47:20 Speaker 07 Yeah. And, uh, if a, will a bad person say they're bad or will a bad person say they're good?
47:26 Speaker 06 Uh, I think it depends. I think some bad people genuinely say they're bad.
47:28 Speaker 07 There's a troll who can never tell a lie.
47:30 Speaker 06 One more time?
47:31 Speaker 07 There's a troll who can never tell a lie.
47:34 Speaker 06 A third time just to make sure we have it?
47:36 Speaker 07 You got it.
47:38 Speaker 07 I'm being mocked. I'm being, I do think my, I do like great evil and great good. I like big story, from growing up Christian, like I love God and Satan, these ideas of great evil and great good. I love Lord of the Rings, like Sauron. I love a good villain.
47:53 Speaker 06 Yeah.
47:53 Speaker 07 I just didn't realize they were right there in my life the whole time.
47:55 Speaker 06 Yeah.
47:56 Speaker 07 Also, hot take on God.
47:58 Speaker 06 Say it. You know I love this.
48:01 Speaker 07 I reread Herman Hesse's Damien recently, which comes for the Cain story. Um, saying like, oh, how did that come about? Like, maybe actually Cain was a really powerful guy people were afraid of. And so they said they had the mark of Cain and that's why people like vilified him. And, and I was like, okay, let me do this with another myth. God and Jesus.
48:21 Speaker 06 Okay.
48:22 Speaker 07 How is it such an act of love to kill your son?
48:27 Speaker 06 This, yeah, this is a.
48:28 Speaker 07 Doesn't really feel like an act of love. Seems like killing, sacrificing yourself would be an act of love to save your son. And so like. God and Jesus to me feel like very different ideas of how to exist in the world. Jesus preached love and acceptance and inclusion. Um, and the Gospel of Thomas, which was discovered at the Na'kamati Library, but not kept in the Bible that we know and love was about how there's a divine light within us all, not just with Jesus, and Jesus being God was later too. And so God is this like angry, um, uh, toxic guy who picks favorites, Cain and Abel. God to me is the original narcissist. People like, yeah, people like this version better. Yes, of course.
49:10 Speaker 07 And so, yeah, people are drawn to, God is evil. Jesus was good. Nobody wants to be Jesus and everyone thinks they're God.
49:19 Speaker 07 Cause Jesus is harder. Yeah, Jesus, being Jesus sucks. You get sent to die. Yes. And you have to be doing that, willing to preach that people are good. Yeah. The people that believe, to come back to Anne Frank Jesus and Zach, the people preach, can I slip myself in there? Yeah, you can. Marianne Williamson, is she allowed to get in there? People that are preaching good, oh, she's still alive. People that are. They haven't got her yet. People that are preaching the importance of love and acceptance and inclusion are, people come for them. Yeah. God. Yeah. So that's my hot take on God and Jesus that I'm still mulling over. Hmm. I think that makes a lot of sense. I like that take. I like thinking about that, the difference between the two. Just pokes a little hole in it. And Jesus being like, why did you forsake me, God?
50:03 Speaker 07 That feels kind of important. Yeah. Like we're kind of, we put that in there and we're kind of overlooking it. Yeah. So maybe Jesus wasn't God. Yeah. I don't think he was. Yeah. Okay. Maybe there is no God. You think? Is that where you're at with it? Oh, I did listen to a clip of yours about this. I'm, I'm, I'm not a like evangelically atheist. I've surrendered to, I surrender to the universe. God, I think God is the dead name of the universe. We say universe now. And just like, hey, there's vibes out there. There are things in this world beyond my comprehension and control. And if I put out good vibes, I've noticed synchronicities happen. I can think of a friend right now, Claire, and I bet I look at my phone after this and she's texted me.
50:48 Speaker 07 And you think like, oh, that was random. It's like, maybe it wasn't random. Yeah. Maybe like you thought of her for some special reason or, so I'm. I'm thinking of a, I'm thinking of a hot.
51:01 Speaker 06 Sweet man in his 30s that loves his family and has a good job.
51:06 Speaker 07 Open your eyes.
51:06 Speaker 06 I bet he texts me right after this.
51:10 Speaker 07 Open your eyes, sweetheart.
51:12 Speaker 06 Man.
51:13 Speaker 07 Gender queer these days.
51:14 Speaker 06 That's what I thought. Yeah, I was gonna say, let's be careful.
51:15 Speaker 07 You put me on trans watch a few months ago.
51:17 Speaker 06 I put you on trans watch and I let you know. I have a couple of watch lists in my life.
51:22 Speaker 07 It just makes, as a gender queer bisexual, people have to love me.
51:25 Speaker 06 I just moved a friend from depression watch to lesbian watch.
51:28 Speaker 07 You?
51:28 Speaker 06 I moved her over.
51:29 Speaker 07 Oh, a friend?
51:30 Speaker 06 Yeah.
51:30 Speaker 07 Oh, a lot of overlap.
51:32 Speaker 06 Yeah, I thought maybe she was giving signs of depression when I was checking in.
51:35 Speaker 07 It's actually just lesbianism.
51:36 Speaker 06 Well, I think she, yeah, it might be. We're gonna find out.
51:38 Speaker 07 Oh, that's exciting.
51:39 Speaker 06 We're gonna find out, but I've moved her. She's on a new watch list.
51:41 Speaker 07 Adley, thank you for clocking my own misgendering of myself. That was beautiful.
51:46 Speaker 06 I was just checking in.
51:47 Speaker 07 Yeah.
51:47 Speaker 06 Happy to know.
51:48 Speaker 07 Yeah, I haven't, I don't, why would anyone wanna be a part of, no offense, the toxic legacy of masculinity?
51:56 Speaker 06 That's how I know I'm a man, is I'm like, I would not be over here if I had any other...
52:01 Speaker 07 Right, right, right.
52:01 Speaker 06 You think I'm not humiliated to be a part of the team? This is a humiliating team to be a part of.
52:05 Speaker 07 You guys have done some Telemann no get ready for a show. That was rude.
52:08 Speaker 06 One of the funniest things you've done
52:11 Speaker 07 Careful, I'll fall in love.
52:12 Speaker 06 in recent memory is that you, I don't know if you will fall in love, cuz it's kinda, it's not, it's not a drag, but it is an observation. One of the funniest things you've done is come into this podcast and say, I had a transformative summer that I refused to talk about, and it put pieces together in a way that I didn't know was still possible. And then to continue to reference it throughout the episode is a legitimately hilarious bit. To be like, to be like, I had a transformative summer that changed the way I think about what I'm capable of. And I don't wanna talk about it.
52:41 Speaker 06 And I envy, I wanna do this, cuz I think this is actually a really brilliant and captivating thing to do. And I mean that.
52:47 Speaker 07 I didn't mean it as a bit, but you're right, it is quite a funny bit.
52:50 Speaker 06 Well, it's hilarious. It's like, I can feel what's actually happening is that you want to talk about things that you know you shouldn't.
52:53 Speaker 07 A thousand percent. Yes.
52:55 Speaker 06 And I do that sometimes where I'm like, I'm not gonna talk about this, but if I was, just know.
52:58 Speaker 07 Yes. Oh, my god. Well, yeah, yeah, but it's my own, I have healing to do around it, and I wanna be really intentional about the words I do use when I am ready to talk about it.
53:10 Speaker 06 I'm supporting the boundary.
53:12 Speaker 07 It feels very like I'm, yeah, on like a talk show and they're trying to get me, and I'm like, I'm not ready to talk about it.
53:17 Speaker 06 And I'm not.
53:17 Speaker 07 But also, I brought it up.
53:19 Speaker 06 That's the funny part. I'm supporting the boundary fully. I will not, I will not go into it, but I do think, I do think it's funny.
53:24 Speaker 07 Her name was Susan.
53:27 Speaker 07 And his name was Corey.
53:29 Speaker 06 Here's a question for you, because you're, this is kind of on that topic. You're somebody who talks about a lot of personal stuff on stage and you're very incisive on stage. You're very insightful. You have what I think to be a really beautiful mix of funny, first and foremost. Thank God. But then also like actually insightful, interesting, important things to say about the world we live in and the way we exist in it. How do you decide when something raw that did actually affect you is like ready to go to stage?
53:54 Speaker 07 I don't know.
53:55 Speaker 06 You don't know?
53:56 Speaker 07 That's a great. I think I err on the side of real time, share how my day went. And that part of that, I think, is the charge of the comedian. Like, hey, tell me about your day. You're sacrificing your personal privacy so that we can all have a laugh or gain some beautiful insight. But I think I need to learn some boundaries around what I keep for myself, what I don't, how soon, how raw. I think like, some space is nice. I think, uh, John Marco said about mentioning his girlfriend in material that like, the thing has to be resolved.
54:35 Speaker 06 Yeah.
54:36 Speaker 07 Like, it can't be live.
54:38 Speaker 06 Yeah.
54:38 Speaker 07 And so maybe that's the move. Like, and also I've learned to add a little space. Because I did tweet like, uh, like, yeah, I can't wait, me when I don't want to do the thing. And when I went on John Marco's podcast, the producer found that tweet like the day I was going on the podcast where I replied to an email like, yeah, I can't wait. And so you want to add a little plausible deniability between the activities of your day and going on stage. Like, if I go on stage tonight and like, went on the worst podcast you guys have ever heard, then.
55:08 Speaker 06 I, that wouldn't, yeah, that'd be fine.
55:10 Speaker 07 Oh, I would never.
55:11 Speaker 06 Yeah.
55:11 Speaker 07 This is, I'm enjoying myself.
55:12 Speaker 06 I know you are. But I do think sometimes people, I found.
55:15 Speaker 07 How do you approach?
55:16 Speaker 06 Uh, how do I approach when to take stuff to the stage? I feel similar. It's kind of like, um, uh, like electrical currents. Like if a wire is cut and the end is still like sparking, it needs to at least be capped. That's not to say that if you took the cap off the current, it couldn't flow again. It's not to say that the thing is completely resolved and I'm never going to have negative emotions about it again, or that I'm completely healed of whatever thing has occurred. But I think the way John Marco put it is frankly even better of like, yeah, it needs to not be like, um, a live wire of a topic in your life when you take it to the audience, because also. First and foremost, I think you need to make sure that you're in a place to be funny about it.
55:51 Speaker 07 Yes.
55:51 Speaker 06 It is simply not any audience's responsibility to like care take for you through whatever shit you're going through. You better be making them laugh.
56:00 Speaker 07 Right. Stand up is not therapy. They paid money to be at the show.
56:03 Speaker 06 Yeah.
56:04 Speaker 07 There is within a set, I do think there is a little space for a freight edge or two, but don't make it the whole thing. Although, well, I feel like one of the great, there's a great set of Tig coming on stage like the day she gets her breast cancer diagnosis.
56:20 Speaker 06 Yeah.
56:21 Speaker 07 So there is a power and a rawness of being fucking real. And you can smell it when the comic is just doing their act and they're not with you. And so it's sort of your right to.
56:35 Speaker 06 You do whatever you want.
56:36 Speaker 07 But you're building a career and if you're, you know, just the guy who comes on stage and talks about, wait, now I want to do a bit where like, hey, everybody, I had a transformative summer, but we can't talk about it.
56:48 Speaker 06 Yeah. I mean, that is a really good bit.
56:49 Speaker 07 Can I have it?
56:50 Speaker 06 I, for sure. I think throughout the set being like, oh God, if I told you guys about this summer. Oh, if I were willing to get into it.
56:57 Speaker 07 Reminds me of this summer.
56:58 Speaker 06 Ma'am, ma'am, ask me about this summer.
57:00 Speaker 07 Sorry.
57:00 Speaker 06 I can't.
57:01 Speaker 07 Not taking questions at this time.
57:02 Speaker 06 Uh, yeah, but Tig also, I will say, by the way, this, this like many, like this, like all other things is a rule for myself.
57:09 Speaker 07 Word.
57:09 Speaker 06 My rules are for me. My rules are not for other people. Other people are allowed to do whatever they want. My rules are for Caleb. I think Tig is an interesting example because Tig as a performer is somebody who's so balanced and so, um, like joke driven to begin with, I trust Tig to go and do the cancer set at Largo. You know what I mean?
57:26 Speaker 07 Trust is the, trust is the word.
57:29 Speaker 06 Yeah.
57:29 Speaker 07 Does the audience trust that you're okay?
57:32 Speaker 06 Yes. And there's also, there's an issue with, there's an issue with less skilled comedians trying to pull off masterful stuff too soon.
57:39 Speaker 07 A thousand percent.
57:40 Speaker 06 It's like, well, you're not good enough to behave that way.
57:42 Speaker 07 Yeah.
57:42 Speaker 06 And that's okay. There's no, there's nothing mean in saying that. You're not Tig Notaro. Tig was a very, very accomplished, like dyed in the wool, toured, successful, skilled, talented comedian when, when she did that set, almost did they. Sorry Tig.
58:00 Speaker 07 What is the, I'm trying to think if there's a metaphor in, um, like painting or another medium for this, like, but maybe there isn't.
58:07 Speaker 06 Maybe there isn't. This is a perfect time. Um. To ask you, Zach Semen, what is so true to you?
58:14 Speaker 07 You don't get to ask questions of the barista.
58:19 Speaker 06 Ooh, tell me what you mean by that.
58:21 Speaker 07 I feel like I was, it's mostly in the Pacific Northwest, no offense, I love Portland. But whenever I'm in a rush, I'm always behind someone who's always like, what is coffee? And I'm like,
58:33 Speaker 07 and then the barista will be like, well, we take be, and it's like, no! Ma'am, pick the thing.
58:38 Speaker 06 That is so funny.
58:39 Speaker 07 So I think a little, but what's hard is I love, I love these little like micro interactions that we have. The do breed community, I do think is important to like have those little moments, but not at the checkout line.
58:52 Speaker 06 Yeah.
58:53 Speaker 07 Can I praise myself?
58:54 Speaker 06 You sure can.
58:55 Speaker 07 I was out Dunkin' Donuts and I got my coffee and then I saw a woman get her coffee and she had a tiny little grimace when she got it. And I was like, oh, did they mess it up? She's like, yeah, I didn't want this cream on top. And I was like, let them know, they'll remake it for you. She's like, oh, I don't want to make a big deal. So I was like, let them know. And she let them know and they remade it for her.
59:12 Speaker 06 Yeah.
59:12 Speaker 07 And I,
59:15 Speaker 07 I'm proud of myself for, I don't know, just those little,
59:20 Speaker 06 Yeah.
59:20 Speaker 07 I think a nu, oh, maybe this is what's so true. A little nudge is very powerful.
59:24 Speaker 06 Yeah.
59:25 Speaker 07 A little nudge, my friend, but also careful because a little nudge can be too powerful. If you're unsure of who you are, like, hey, go, go in there. My friend will nudge me and I will listen. So just, uh, we gotta look out for each other and give each other little nudges like that.
59:39 Speaker 06 Yeah, noticing is love. Noticing the little grimace is loving.
59:42 Speaker 07 Noticing is love.
59:44 Speaker 06 And then there's an additional act of love. Like, if notice, if you had noticed the grimace and just given her a smile to say, I saw your grimace, that would be love. A further act of love is saying, what's the grimace about?
59:55 Speaker 07 Yeah.
59:55 Speaker 06 Did they, did they mess up your coffee? And even further, you made like six or seven acts of, of love in that moment.
1:00:01 Speaker 07 I made it to third base.
1:00:02 Speaker 06 Yeah, you went to third base with love.
1:00:04 Speaker 07 That wink.
1:00:05 Speaker 06 Third base with love.
1:00:06 Speaker 07 Third base with love. I do think, uh, yeah, love is listening, love is noticing. Love is, I use the bell hooks definition, commitment to one's spiritual growth. The willingness to extend oneself, that took a little out of my day. It took an extra 10 seconds.
1:00:22 Speaker 06 Yeah.
1:00:23 Speaker 07 I guess I did love that woman.
1:00:25 Speaker 06 That was love.
1:00:26 Speaker 07 Yeah, I am bi.
1:00:27 Speaker 06 I'm deciding that was love. You're bi. You're bi.
1:00:30 Speaker 07 Care and love, it is funny when you're falling for someone, you don't get to say the word love. Like, I care about you, like you're shy to tell someone like, I love you.
1:00:39 Speaker 06 Are you?
1:00:41 Speaker 07 Me?
1:00:41 Speaker 06 Yeah.
1:00:41 Speaker 07 Oh, no, I, girl.
1:00:43 Speaker 06 Oh.
1:00:44 Speaker 07 I went on a first date recently and I was like, I, I caught myself because I was like, I shouldn't be doing that. But I was like, I can see a world, which is very,
1:00:55 Speaker 07 which might be very similar to this world.
1:00:57 Speaker 06 Yeah.
1:00:58 Speaker 07 Where I fall madly and deeply in love with you.
1:00:59 Speaker 06 Could almost be the exact world we're living in.
1:01:01 Speaker 07 Yeah, might, might be. And then later, later did I say, I love you? I won't say, but.
1:01:07 Speaker 06 The idea of someone saying, I love you, and me saying back, I can see a world.
1:01:12 Speaker 07 No, I said it first.
1:01:13 Speaker 06 I know, I know, but could you imagine it as the response?
1:01:15 Speaker 07 That's dark.
1:01:16 Speaker 06 You love me. I, there are universes in which.
1:01:20 Speaker 07 There, we live in many worlds. Are you familiar with the Marvel Universe?
1:01:24 Speaker 06 There are planes of existence. Can I start there?
1:01:26 Speaker 07 Yeah.
1:01:26 Speaker 06 Um, thank you for saying that.
1:01:27 Speaker 07 The, are you familiar with string theory?
1:01:29 Speaker 06 Right.
1:01:30 Speaker 07 And vibrations?
1:01:31 Speaker 06 Yes, exactly. Zach.
1:01:34 Speaker 07 Did I, I don't think I did the assignment.
1:01:36 Speaker 06 No, you did a great job. You don't get to ask questions of the barista is a great so true.
1:01:40 Speaker 07 And I'm very, if there's no li, look.
1:01:43 Speaker 06 It does beg the question, who then do you ask? But that's not important on this show.
1:01:46 Speaker 07 Google.
1:01:47 Speaker 06 Right.
1:01:47 Speaker 07 Or a friend.
1:01:48 Speaker 06 Right.
1:01:49 Speaker 07 A trusted confidant.
1:01:50 Speaker 06 I think, I think if I really dove into it, I'm team, you get to ask the barista questions, even though it ruins my morning. Even though, I know, I know, it sucks. That's why I didn't bring it up originally.
1:02:00 Speaker 07 This is based on a true story. I'm in an airport and an old lady is like, well, is that problematic that I had to make her an old lady?
1:02:05 Speaker 06 Was she old?
1:02:06 Speaker 07 Yeah.
1:02:07 Speaker 06 Well, then you didn't make her.
1:02:08 Speaker 07 She was like, what's a latte? And so now I'm kind of charmed by the idea of someone living a 65 year old life and not knowing what a latte is. Uh, I need to invent an argument that makes mine okay.
1:02:21 Speaker 06 Hold on, I already said she was old.
1:02:22 Speaker 07 You're behind Jeff Bezos.
1:02:24 Speaker 06 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:02:25 Speaker 07 And he's like, where do you get your beans from? The specific city and county? Now, bitch.
1:02:32 Speaker 06 Yeah, the bitch would definitely take it over. Zach, I have a segment for you.
1:02:36 Speaker 06 You ready?
1:02:36 Speaker 07 Wait, this is an act of love.
1:02:38 Speaker 06 This is an act of love.
1:02:39 Speaker 07 Yeah.
1:02:40 Speaker 06 There, I'm going to read you 15 statements.
1:02:43 Speaker 07 Yep.
1:02:43 Speaker 06 You're going to tell me as quickly as you can, if you think what I just said is true or false. If you get 10 or more correct, we're going to give you 50 US dollars.
1:02:50 Speaker 07 Wow. And may I ask?
1:02:54 Speaker 06 Now, yes.
1:02:57 Speaker 07 Is it random what is true and not? Or did someone sort of make it so that there's a bout, there's some back and forth?
1:03:06 Speaker 06 They're, they're objective trivia questions.
1:03:09 Speaker 07 But then the order of them. Will you deliver them to me in a random order?
1:03:14 Speaker 06 You're about to find out.
1:03:14 Speaker 07 They're randomized. Okay.
1:03:16 Speaker 06 There are two NFL.
1:03:17 Speaker 07 I have to get 10 right?
1:03:18 Speaker 06 You have to get 10 right.
1:03:19 Speaker 07 Okay.
1:03:19 Speaker 06 There are two NFL teams in the state of New York.
1:03:21 Speaker 07 We can't talk about what happened this summer.
1:03:23 Speaker 06 That's the second one. You went through a transformative this summer. Tell me about it.
1:03:26 Speaker 07 What's your perfect day?
1:03:27 Speaker 06 There are two NFL teams in the state of New York.
1:03:32 Speaker 07 False.
1:03:32 Speaker 06 False. There are three. Bank of America has more locations in the US than any other bank.
1:03:39 Speaker 07 False.
1:03:39 Speaker 06 False. It's Chase. Uranus is the coldest planet in the solar system.
1:03:47 Speaker 07 True.
1:03:48 Speaker 06 That is true. William Fleming High School won state men's basketball in 2007.
1:03:52 Speaker 07 This is where I went to high school. We, we won what?
1:03:56 Speaker 06 State in men's basketball in 2007.
1:03:58 Speaker 07 I graduated in 2006. I have no idea. True.
1:04:01 Speaker 06 It is true. Every founding member of the band Aerosmith is still alive.
1:04:05 Speaker 07 False.
1:04:06 Speaker 06 True.
1:04:06 Speaker 07 Oh.
1:04:07 Speaker 06 Bald Eagles mate for life.
1:04:09 Speaker 07 Hmm, false.
1:04:11 Speaker 06 True.
1:04:12 Speaker 07 Oh.
1:04:12 Speaker 06 Spike TV is older than MTV.
1:04:14 Speaker 07 True.
1:04:15 Speaker 06 False. A group of ladybugs is called a loveliness.
1:04:18 Speaker 07 You're, yes, true. Even if it's not, thank God, it's true.
1:04:22 Speaker 06 The Princeton Triangle Club was founded in 1905.
1:04:27 Speaker 07 True.
1:04:28 Speaker 06 False. 1891. Skittles are banned in Norway.
1:04:32 Speaker 07 True.
1:04:32 Speaker 06 True. Reddit was originally a book review website.
1:04:35 Speaker 07 True.
1:04:36 Speaker 06 False.
1:04:36 Speaker 07 Oh.
1:04:37 Speaker 06 The sentence 19 letters long is 19 letters long.
1:04:40 Speaker 07 The sentence 19 letters long.
1:04:43 Speaker 06 Not gonna.
1:04:43 Speaker 07 Is 19 letters long? Or words?
1:04:47 Speaker 06 Letters.
1:04:49 Speaker 07 The sentence.
1:04:50 Speaker 06 19 letters long.
1:04:51 Speaker 07 That's the sentence?
1:04:52 Speaker 06 Is 19 letters long.
1:04:54 Speaker 07 19 letters long. And I am. True.
1:04:59 Speaker 06 It is true. Lawrence Fishburne is six foot five.
1:05:01 Speaker 07 False.
1:05:02 Speaker 06 False. He's six foot. Snapchat was discontinued in 2021.
1:05:05 Speaker 07 False.
1:05:06 Speaker 06 That is false. The current mayor of Roanoke, Virginia is Travis Fleetwood.
1:05:14 Speaker 07 True.
1:05:14 Speaker 06 False. Joseph L. Cobb.
1:05:18 Speaker 06 How do you do?
1:05:18 Speaker 07 Catching strays.
1:05:20 Speaker 06 Nine.
1:05:21 Speaker 07 No! Wait, I wanna litigate. So which ones did I get wrong?
1:05:25 Speaker 06 There's nothing to litigate.
1:05:26 Speaker 07 Well, I don't, I could, that could get me out of a lot of minds. That could get me out of a lot.
1:05:34 Speaker 07 Ah, don't tell anybody that.
1:05:35 Speaker 06 So don't sweat it.
1:05:36 Speaker 07 I thought one of the questions gonna, I'm ready to answer.
1:05:39 Speaker 06 To answer?
1:05:40 Speaker 07 The, the question I refused to answer earlier.
1:05:43 Speaker 06 Okay. There's two buttons in front of you.
1:05:49 Speaker 06 One does nothing, one kills somebody. Uh, Zach, thank you so much for doing this. This was lovely.
1:05:53 Speaker 07 You don't wanna know what my perfect day is?
1:05:55 Speaker 06 I would love to know what your perfect day is. I thought you were doing a bit about your summer and I wasn't gonna actually push you on it.
1:06:00 Speaker 07 Oh, no.
1:06:00 Speaker 06 What is your perfect day?
1:06:02 Speaker 07 October 3rd.
1:06:04 Speaker 06 Okay.
1:06:04 Speaker 07 It's not too hot, not too cold.
1:06:06 Speaker 06 It's really cute.
1:06:07 Speaker 07 All you need is a light jacket.
1:06:08 Speaker 06 A bit of a deflection, but really cute.
1:06:10 Speaker 07 Um, I was thinking about while I was peeing.
1:06:14 Speaker 07 It's, it involves coffee and, uh, maybe an omelet.
1:06:18 Speaker 06 Ooh, what kind of omelet?
1:06:20 Speaker 07 Ooh, my god.
1:06:21 Speaker 06 Cause you know I'm ham, onions and cheese.
1:06:23 Speaker 07 Well, I'm a vegetarian, cause I care about the sentient beings other than humans on the earth.
1:06:27 Speaker 06 And I don't. We've made that clear.
1:06:29 Speaker 07 I love cheese and maybe a little salsa on it, a little crème fraiche, a little sour cream.
1:06:34 Speaker 06 Yeah.
1:06:34 Speaker 07 And, um, sweet potato fries.
1:06:37 Speaker 06 Yeah.
1:06:38 Speaker 07 Or a really good home fries, like a twice fried, twice baked.
1:06:41 Speaker 06 Yeah.
1:06:41 Speaker 07 Home fries, English muffin.
1:06:42 Speaker 06 Yeah.
1:06:43 Speaker 07 Butter jelly. And there should probably be some sex.
1:06:48 Speaker 06 In your perfect day?
1:06:49 Speaker 07 For my perfect day?
1:06:50 Speaker 06 Yeah.
1:06:51 Speaker 07 I think the perfect day starts with a little.
1:06:53 Speaker 06 We'll get you some.
1:06:53 Speaker 07 Cause I don't know about you guys, I wake up a little, ready to go.
1:06:58 Speaker 06 I do, but morning sex is a chore of all chores. Morning sex is like asking me to run a marathon. I'm like, I need, I need to, I need to brush my teeth, I need to shower, I need to stretch, I need, like, it's just too, morning sex is like, oof.
1:07:14 Speaker 07 What? No, it's the best.
1:07:16 Speaker 06 I don't like it. And I don't like when someone tries to have morning sex with me without having like, brush their teeth and whatnot.
1:07:22 Speaker 07 Oh, yeah, you gotta go brush.
1:07:23 Speaker 06 You gotta brush.
1:07:24 Speaker 07 Little mints. You don't have a little sex corner with mints and condoms and a.
1:07:28 Speaker 06 Of course I do, I'm no fool.
1:07:29 Speaker 07 Gallon of lube.
1:07:32 Speaker 06 Something like that, yeah.
1:07:32 Speaker 07 Giant, you know, at a stadium when they've got like
1:07:35 Speaker 06 Yeah.
1:07:36 Speaker 07 ketchup, mustard, mayonnaise.
1:07:38 Speaker 06 Yeah, and I have the little paper cups with it, too.
1:07:41 Speaker 07 Oh, my gosh.
1:07:42 Speaker 06 Bring a paper cup of lube to the bedroom. Uh, Zach, this was so much fun. Thank you for doing it.
1:07:46 Speaker 07 Oh, I had a blast.
1:07:47 Speaker 06 Tell people where they can find you.
1:07:48 Speaker 07 Um, I live at Boundary.
1:07:51 Speaker 06 I live at Boundary.
1:07:52 Speaker 07 Um, I'm on Instagram, ZZ double ZZ. That's ZZ, the word double in ZZ. Um, that's the big place, Instagram, TikTok, uh, Twitter, sorry.
1:08:02 Speaker 06 And your stand-up special, which is on YouTube.
1:08:04 Speaker 07 Yeah, I watched my stand-up special called Surprise Me. It's about my search for a definition of love, and Dunkin' Donuts is there. And then I have a book that came out two years ago called, Is It Hot in Here? Or Am I Suffering for All Eternity for the Sins I Committed on Earth? You can get that on bookshop.com or ask your local independent bookstore to order it for you.
1:08:22 Speaker 06 Yeah. Oh, yeah. Thanks for doing it, Zach.
1:08:24 Speaker 07 Thanks for having me!
1:08:29 Speaker 09 Whenever fall comes back around, it always feels like a fresh start. This year, I've been layering in some styles from the new Lululemon fall drop, because the weather is shifting and I find I have to be ready for the entire day and not just one part of it. Lululemon's fall line has some really versatile transitional pieces, so I can just wake up, throw on a matching set, add a jacket or a fleece, and head out, knowing that I'll feel comfortable enough to go wherever the day takes me. Check out the new fall arrivals in store and online now at lululemon.com.
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1:09:29 Speaker 01 Ugh, I hate Mondays.
1:09:30 Speaker 02 King's Hawaiian cinnamon swirl bite?
1:09:32 Speaker 01 Uh, Taylor Hansen? Sure, I'll try one.
1:09:35 Speaker 02 Mmm.
1:09:38 Speaker 03 Hey, let's get back to work, please.
1:09:39 Speaker 01 But Taylor Hansen's making my day way better with these new soft and swirly King's Hawaiian cinnamon bites.
1:09:44 Speaker 03 Taylor Hansen? Nice.
1:09:46 Speaker 02 Try one.
1:09:47 Speaker 03 Mmm.
1:09:51 Speaker 04 King's Hawaiian cinnamon bites. There's nothing like it.
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