Winston Lee ID’d as Former South Korean Prime Minister’s Grandson: Cornell 7 Case

Politicians typically are THE most loved when they’re dead.
That’s not a threat. Something about no longer wielding power makes them more lovable. And obituaries typically omit the bad stuff. Which brings us to Lee Hong-koo, South Korea’s former prime minister, who held office when the Sampoong Department Store collapsed, a case we covered. His legacy spans decades. But now, netizens speculate that his grandson could become better known than him. They believe Winston Lee, one of the accused in the Cornell 7 case, is his grandson. That connection remains unconfirmed. But if true, Lee comes from one of South Korea’s most prominent families. And he’s lawyered up. His lawyers want New York’s Attorney General off the case. This is the final part of the Cornell 7 case. Full show notes available at RottenMangoPodcast.com

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Twenty years after Natalie Holloway disappeared on a high school graduation trip to Aruba, Natalie's mother Beth is ready to tell the complete story. Taken: Natalie Holloway is a three-part series that follows Beth's relentless pursuit of answers and justice for her daughter and gives a fuller picture of who Natalie was as a person. It's the definitive account of a case that gripped multiple nations and never let go. Watch Taken: Natalie Holloway, November 4th, only on Netflix. Does your closet need a fall reset? Stitch Fix is the secret for refreshing your wardrobe and feeling totally confident in how you dress. Their expert human stylists get to know your lifestyle and budget, so they can pick pieces that actually work for you. Unlike other services, there's no subscription required,

• 0:45Speaker 00

  so you can order whenever you want without a huge commitment. Plus, you get free shipping and returns. Get started today at stitchfix.com. That's stitchfix.com. Having insurance isn't the same as having State Farm. It's like showing up for movie night, ready for a heart-pounding thriller, but getting a three-hour documentary on lawn care. That's kind of like insurance. Insurance may all seem the same on the surface, but when it comes to getting the help you need, State Farm is the real deal. You wouldn't settle for a snooze fest when you came for a thrill ride. So don't settle for just any insurance when there's State Farm. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

• 1:25Speaker 00

  Politicians typically are the most loved when they're dead. That is not a general threat aimed at a singular person or a group of people, but something about politicians not being able to wield their positions of power typically makes them seem that much more lovable. And of course, I would say that most obituaries omit all the bad stuff that they've done, because I feel like that would have been a bit of a faux pas, I imagine. And I'm not saying that every politician is more bad than good, but I'm just saying it's very interesting that all the bad stuff they've done is almost forgotten the minute that they die. And that may be the case for Lee Hong-goo. He's the former prime minister of South Korea.

• 2:07Speaker 00

  He was the prime minister of South Korea when, we talked about this case on this channel, the Sampoong Department Store collapsed because all of the building regulations were just bad. There were greedy, money-hungry developers involved. He was the prime minister at that time. We've covered that on this channel. But he's also held some other really high titles. He was a major figure in a pretty conservative South Korean politics. Some of his top positions that he held was as a unification minister, just like unifying North and South Korea, deputy prime minister, and an ambassador to Washington and London. He died earlier this year at 92 years old. And I'm not saying that he doesn't have an admirable legacy

• 2:49Speaker 00

  or that he wasn't a good person, but this was a powerful man in South Korea. But all of that, the articles now state along the lines of, "He leaves behind a Korea that is more democratic, more connected to the world, and more sure of itself, in no small part because of him." He was also known to help bring the World Cup Games to 2002 in Korea, which they co-hosted that. That was probably one of the more controversial World Cup Games that ever existed. But overall, he's just a well-known figure with a long legacy. That's what he's going to be well-known for. But it seems like all of that could be changing recently, because netizens have put two and two together that his own grandson might be become more well-known than him,

• 3:33Speaker 00

  at least over here in the United States. Netizens believe that his grandson is Winston Lee, one of the accused...

• 3:40Speaker 01

  Are you serious?

• 3:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:41Speaker 01

  Wait, how...

• 3:43Speaker 00

  So in Korea, a lot of these major political heads, their family lineage is trackable. So The New York Times, as well as a lot of big mainstream Korean news outlets, they found his Korean name, Winston Lee's Korean name, and then that matched up with Winston Lee's middle name in the US. They were born on the same day. I believe there was some sort of indication that he went to Cornell. I mean, what are the odds, right? It could be that they have the same name, were born on the same day.

• 4:11Speaker 01

  Same day, same name.

• 4:13Speaker 00

  Could be going to the, I think there was indication that, yeah, they went to Cornell.

• 4:17Speaker 01

  That is crazy.

• 4:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:19Speaker 01

  So this is the report right now, out there?

• 4:22Speaker 00

  That it is most likely his grandson is Winston Lee, one of the accused in the case that has been dubbed the Cornell Seven Case.

• 4:30Speaker 01

  That's freaking crazy.

• 4:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:33Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 4:34Speaker 00

  Because I know netizens were like, "I think he's back in Korea. I think he's in the army right now." Everyone was trying to track down Winston Lee. Some people were saying, "No, he's at Cornell." Others were saying he transferred to this university. But regardless of the facts, if this familial connection turns out to be true, Winston Lee might be one of the most prominent students out of the seven that have been accused, coming from one of the most prominent families in all of South Korea. He is now since lawyered up, and these are lawyers that you may be very familiar with, Tenney Gergos, who is with Agnifilo's law firm, Mark Agnifilo, who represented Sean Combs, later Luigi Mangiotti, well, also Keith Raniere. But they want the Attorney General of New York off the Cornell Seven Case.

• 5:18Speaker 00

  And if, I guess, anyone has enough power and connections, it maybe could be them. This is the final part of the Cornell Seven Case as of right now.

• 5:48Speaker 00

  We'd like to thank today's sponsors who have made it possible for Rotten Mango to support RAIN, AKA the Rape, Abuse, and Incest National Network. RAIN provides free confidential support services and information to survivors of sexual violence, available 24/7 by phone, chat, or text. This episode's partnerships have also made it possible to support Rotten Mango's team of dedicated researchers, and we'd also like to thank you guys for your continued support. As always, full show notes are available at rottenmangopodcast.com. Before we begin, a content warning. This episode discusses alleged sexual assaults, including drug and alcohol usage, potential coercion, as well as the greater ripple effects that have resulted from this case. If there's going to be heavy debates of people doubting victim's stories, of people coming out and having very strong opinions

• 6:30Speaker 00

  about who the accusers are, who the victim is, who the real victim is, there's just a lot of heated discussion. If that's something that's very hard to hear, please take care of yourself. Skip this one if you need to. And I also cannot stress enough that this case is currently ongoing. When we describe what happened that night, we're describing what is alleged in court filings reported by news outlets or found in public records up until the time of recording. Due to the current pending legal status, we also have to use words like alleged, according to Jane Doe, according to the accused, according to the defendants, right? The usage of these words does not discredit anybody's stories. I'm just telling you, this is what this person said. This is what this person claims. I feel like these words have become charged over time, but just know that nothing has been proven in the court of law.

• 7:15Speaker 00

  Nobody has been charged with a crime as of right now. Nobody has been convicted or found guilty, and everybody should be treated as innocent until and unless proven guilty in the court of law. And also do your own research. Any comments, theories, speculations, opinions, claims, any of the leaked information, they are all available publicly online to look at and to peruse through yourself. They do not reflect Rotten Mango's beliefs, and nor are we saying that this is the only comprehensive overview of the case that you should be receiving. If there are any massive developments or changes in the case, we're going to do our best to keep you guys updated. So with that being said, let's get started. After the night in question, October 20th, 2024, Jane Doe says that she wakes up around 4:00 to 5:00 p.m. the next afternoon.

• 7:58Speaker 00

  She gets back to her sorority house really early in the morning. She goes to sleep, wakes up, and says, quote, "I was made aware of what happened to me at KaiFai was becoming public knowledge. It was made clear to me by several friends that members of KaiFai were bragging about having an eight some with me. Some rumors said it was 10 people, but nonetheless, it was now obvious that everyone knew it was me that this had happened to." This is where things get pretty murky. You have a lot of people online who look at the night in question, and everyone's initial statements about what they said happened that night in question. And either they firmly believe that Jane Doe was victimized, or they firmly believe that she was not victimized, but now she may be victimizing the seven because she has changed her mind about what happened.

• 8:43Speaker 00

  There are some netizens who believe that Jane Doe consented to everything that night. She did not mention saying no. She did not mention being forced by way of physical force. I will note that, um, I don't know if these netizens are forgetting, but she does mention coercion and intoxication.

• 8:58Speaker 00

  Some of these netizens are pointing out that at certain points in the night, she did in fact say no, and the guys did not push her further, such as when she said no to a foursome and a foursome did not occur. So they're almost using this as evidence of when she did say no, nothing happened. Others say just because she didn't violently scream no at the top of her lungs doesn't make it consensual. Jane Doe tells the Title IX panel that she did not show any excitement, any enthusiasm, which is kind of the basis of consent. Many netizens argue that consent shouldn't just be a yes, it should be an enthusiastic yes. And even if she said yes to the initial threesome, she could have withdrawn consent at any given point. However, other netizens disagree, saying that's too vague of a standard. Like, that's very difficult to prove.

• 9:40Speaker 00

  One netizen comment reads, "How enthusiastic must a partner be for sex to not be rape? How often must one receive updated consent during an encounter to have satisfied the requirement of getting consent at every stage? This shifts burden of proof onto the accused and it's normally the job of the accuser to prove their claims." But a lot of netizens are pushing back on that sentiment, saying, "Okay, but like, come on, this is not a situation where it's like, oh, well, maybe they really didn't know." They put it in the Snapchat. The Snapchat was sent out, people are coming into the room, asking to do things on her body, whether it be snort drugs, or whether it be kissing her. She doesn't know many of the people in the room, she's unclothed, she's provided with drugs and alcohol. Sure, it's not a clean, black and white issue of she screamed no and they tied her down and abused her,

• 10:24Speaker 00

  but a lot of people say to act like we don't know what's going on in that room with this energy, this kind of environment that's in that fraternity house, it feels like a setup. And if you don't acknowledge that, it's like abandoning all of your brain cells left in your mind to play the unpaid internship role of devil's advocate. These conversations have only gotten more intense as more information has been released about text messages and phone calls between Jane Doe and the accused in the days and weeks after the incident, before Jane Doe reports the incident to campus police. So this incident takes place October 19th. She reports the incident November 8th.

• 10:59Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 10:59Speaker 00

  This timeline is not uncommon for survivors or victims. Not saying that there was a crime, but I'm saying it's not strange. However, people have different opinions about why she went to the police. The people who are firmly against Jane Doe, they say her breaking point was that she got disinvited from the KiFi Halloween party, and that is when you see her, this is what they claim, that is when you see her messages and her tone against the accused shift less from "I love you, that was fun," to more so "something bad happened to me, like, explain yourself." Others argue it's not that she got disinvited from the Halloween party, it's because trauma takes time for the individual to even grasp what happened to them. So what exactly is everybody debating about?

• 11:42Speaker 00

  Jane Doe wakes up in the sorority house, 4 to 5 p.m. She finds out these rumors are being spread. People are finding out that something occurred in the fraternity house the night before. Jane Doe's roommates were interviewed by the school's Title IX investigation, and they report that Jane told them that if anyone asks about them, just, just say none of it happened. Like, if anyone's like, "Hey, I heard about your roommate Jane," just say it didn't happen. Which, it appeared the roommates agreed, but they were just concerned. They later tell school investigators, she was just recounting it as this sort of crazy thing that she had done. As the days went on, I think she kind of came to realize that it was something bad, and that she didn't really enjoy her time there, which is contentious. Even that statement is being debated, because some people are saying, "See, this is what happens.

• 12:27Speaker 00

  Trauma takes time for you to come to the truth." Others are saying, "You don't just get to decide you didn't have a good time after the fact." Regret is not the same thing as a crime, so there's a lot of debate going on, even the roommate's word usage. However, I will say, one other statement from a roommate is, the roommate told the investigators that Jane Doe was essayed before, and that made it incredibly difficult for her to openly talk about what happened at this time. So there's some sort of history of trauma, they indicate. I don't know how true that is. The roommate says, "I think she wanted it to be consensual. I'd have conversations, and she would describe a part of what happened, and I would tell her that, you know, this would be classified as rape." So is it a change of mind? Is it a change of heart?

• 13:10Speaker 00

  Or is it denial process that takes her time so that she can face the trauma? One of Jane's other roommates recalls the morning after Jane said, "Oh my goodness, like, isn't that crazy?" The roommate states that Jane does not refer to the incident initially as rape or assault, but she was also kind of like laughing as she recounted the events. However, the roommate notes that it seemed like Jane was in some sort of shock, quote, "not really understanding the gravity of what she was saying." A second roommate states that Jane Doe told her, quote, "I wasn't comfortable." One of her roommates later states, "I don't really remember her ever kind of citing that she had said yes to anything that occurred." So they're saying, "Okay, the vibe that I get from some of these snippets of the Title IX investigation, and this is not the full Title IX investigation because it hasn't been made public,

• 13:53Speaker 00

  but this is what I pulled from the John Doe v. Cornell lawsuit. Please, if you guys haven't listened to part one and part two, or seen those videos, go watch those, because it's just really extensive to cover it." However, in those lawsuits, there's little snippets of the Title IX investigation. And it seems like the vibe that I'm getting from the roommates is Jane is telling them like, "Oh, it was such a crazy night," and they're all feeling like, "Ooh, this is essay, and she is not seeing it." That's the vibe I get. Like, she's in shock, we're telling her, that's not... And then she said that she didn't say yes to anything, she wasn't comfortable. People around Jane feel like she's a victim of essay before she even considered herself a victim of essay, is the vibe that we get. Another individual student at Cornell heard rumors about what happened. And the version that she heard was something along the lines of,

• 14:37Speaker 00

  "Oh, Jane Doe intended to have a threesome, but the situation, quote, went off the rails." She later contacted Crime Alert, so she's calling the campus security system, like alerting system. She had the screenshots of the KiFi Snapchat messages. She heard the rumors of what was going on. And she was interviewed for 30 minutes by the Cornell University Police Department, telling them everything that she knew, and she just assumed that they were competent, and they were going to handle it, and there would be some sort of investigation. She says now in hindsight, she feels betrayed on how the situation was handled, because the DA didn't even open an investigation.

• 15:10Speaker 01

  This was November 9?

• 15:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, around November.

• 15:13Speaker 01

  November, okay.

• 15:14Speaker 00

  Another point of contention is that people have been interpreting differently. Jane Doe is, she's in a sorority, so she has a sorority big, which is kind of like a Greek life thing. It's like an older, upperclassman who is your guide in the sorority. So she goes to her big, and she's like, "Hey, I know that there's probably going to be rumors about me that are circulating, calling me a slut." Jane Doe apparently laughs and adds, "Unfortunately, they are true." Some people take this as, "Wow, look at this girl, she's fucking laughing about what happened. She thinks it's hee hee, ha ha, well, not two years later, now she wants to sue the fuck out of everybody. She thought it was funny, why isn't it funny now?" Others think she's clearly not actually laughing.

• 15:56Speaker 00

  Like, none of that seems like a silly goofy time that actually seems like someone on the verge of a mental breakdown. And the big sister from Tri Delta even later tells school investigators, "I could tell that, just from personal experience, that what she was going through is that she had not yet processed what had happened." The day after that, October 21st, Jonathan Newell texts Jane Doe. So this is the guy that was involved in the first sexual encounter and the second, as listed by Jane Doe's lawsuit. And also, he's the one that poured, allegedly poured ketamine onto his erect body parts. "Hey Jane, this is Jonathan, redacted, gave me your number. I just wanted to apologize for how things went down the other night. My memory's kind of fuzzy about a lot of it,

• 16:39Speaker 00

  but me and Matt both feel like shit for being too fucked up to shut it down and kick people out before it got way out of hand. You're an amazing person, and I genuinely hope you're not catching as much heat from this as we are. We've been shutting down any stories we've heard, but again, I'm so, so sorry." This message on the surface, a lot of netizens believe is evidence that Jonathan is a kind, caring person. If he did essay her, why would he reach out to her and frame it this way? But other netizens think that's a bizarre message to send to someone after a consensual threesome at a party. It's one thing if Jane's friend Matthew sent her something along those lines, but this feels like a damage control type of message. Also, I guess you could argue that maybe Jonathan is just being a nice guy. However, not being nice is not a crime.

• 17:20Speaker 00

  But Jonathan, to me, and maybe my standards of someone being nice is skewed. He doesn't seem like a nice guy at all. He sent the initial Snapchat message, "Free pussy alum, pull up," but suddenly he's out here checking up on everyone, checking up on the well-being, just saying sorry just because I'm apologetic for nothing, even though I didn't commit a crime or do anything wrong morally apprehensible. I just like to say sorry to people. Like, he just doesn't fit that vibe in my mind.

• 17:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:44Speaker 00

  But the more contentious online argument lies with Jane Doe's response to his message, because she responds, "Oh Jonathan, I really appreciate this text. My memory's super clouded too. I think we were all way too fucking drunk and high. I'm getting a little heat, PiFi girls, so, eh, other sorority. Redacted and redacted, can't get my name out their mouth, but that's to be expected. But at the end of the day, none of the sexual stuff was illegal, and honestly, I really liked being with you and Matt. So anything anyone has to say about the gangbang is out of their jurisdiction. I don't think we should feel any shame for the part, because our body is our choice, as fuck. But if you have any regrets, or anything you want to talk about, I am always here to talk about it, because that was a lot. I really do love you and Matt, and I promise I won't get quiet and weird with you like I did last time."

• 18:29Speaker 00

  She suggests later that they smoke together, and this time, quote, "But like, leave out the extra five billion men and ketamine." It has been alleged that Jonathan Newell was with Jillio Lopes when he sent this apologetic text message to Jane Doe and Jillio Lopes attorney, who on behalf of Jillio denies that, okay, so Jillio Lopes is accused in Jane Doe's lawsuit as being part of the second sexual encounter with Jonathan Newell.

• 18:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:57Speaker 00

  Jillio Lopes, his attorney comes out and says he never saw drugs being used in that room. Like he's, that was his room. He just popped in. Like they're, everyone's having a good time, right? He's confronted with this information. Like your client was with Jonathan when he sent this message apologizing for the drugs and things getting out of hand.

• 19:16Speaker 01

  How do we know that they're together when they send the message?

• 19:19Speaker 00

  I believe it was in like the Title IX investigation that mainstream media were able to get their hands on. The attorney responds.

• 19:26Speaker 02

  Well, it wasn't Mr. Lopes apology. He didn't write an apologetic text or email to her.

• 19:32Speaker 00

  So he's just arguing like, what does that have to do with my client? Which I guess is a valid argument. The next day, October 22nd, Jane Doe goes to Cornell Health because she has a UTI and wants to get tested for STDs. She briefly mentions to the doctor that she contracted the UTI in a quote traumatic way. She claims that the doctor, I guess, doesn't really follow up on that and just suggests Jane should go to therapy.

• 19:55Speaker 01

  Therapy? Oh, for the trauma, I see.

• 19:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, which is Cornell Health, what the hell is happening? I'm so lost. Like, I don't know. One interesting thing to note is that early on in the communications that have been made public, Jane Doe seems very confused about how these rumors are spreading so quickly. She keeps trying to figure out where the hell it's coming from. And as she's texting Matthew, which is the friend that invited her to the fraternity party, he also sounds confused. Befuddled, that one is, okay? One text message from Matthew to Jane Doe sounds like he's just as frustrated and perplexed as she is. He says, dude, I have no fucking idea. This shit is incredibly frustrating. And now I know how fast nonsense spreads

• 20:39Speaker 00

  at this school. It's fan behavior from everyone talking about it. Boring people who have nothing to do with their time. It'll blow over in a couple of days, I imagine. Until then, we just have to sit tight. How have you been coping with the stress? You need anything?

• 20:52Speaker 01

  Fan behavior?

• 20:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:54Speaker 01

  What?

• 20:55Speaker 00

  Now, mind you, another reminder, though, I don't think it needs to be reminded, 57 member group chat, they're all responding, free pussy, come whip it out, boys come whip it out, firsthand POV, this is not a bit like, what do you mean? You don't know how the rumors are responding? Could it be that any singular one of the 57 people told another person about it and they told someone else about it? They were all there in that group chat. It seems like if anyone's a rat, it's you guys. Jane Doe responds, I will also say this is fucking ruining my life temporarily. My reputation is destroyed. I'm utterly ashamed. I'm fucking pissed because this many people shouldn't know. And I feel like I know who some of the rats in the room were. If I ever find out, I swear to God, it's on sight. Literally, people are making it crazier every fucking day. On top of it, I have a UTI

• 21:38Speaker 00

  and all I do is sleep and cry all day. Okay.

• 21:41Speaker 01

  When was this? Do you know?

• 21:43Speaker 00

  Two days, like two days after. Again, another reminder, Matthew was in the group chat. He's the one that invites his friend.

• 21:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:50Speaker 00

  Three, five minutes of dancing go by. He's like, you want to have a threesome? Okay. Then he's in the group chat, boys come whip it out. No, like you can just come in and whip it out. Okay. That's all I know about his personality. Maybe he's a great person outside of this incident, but that's all I know about this man. And then all of a sudden, his text messages to me are like two different people. I'm so sorry, dude. This sounds incredibly overwhelming and fucked up on all fronts. I've been dealing with similar stuff on my end, but obviously it doesn't compare to what you're going through. The most reassuring thing I can offer is that it will blow over and soon. Stupid bitches like to yap and the fact they're doing it shows that they're just jealous of you for

• 22:31Speaker 00

  any number of reasons. I understand the regret, but personally, I don't think you have anything to be ashamed of. The only shameful thing is how this is spread and how people won't shut up about it, which just reflects poorly on them, to be honest. As for the UTI, I'm pretty ignorant about how that works, but if there's anything, medicine, a call, et cetera, you need from me, then let me know and I can make it happen. This sucks, dude. But we've been through worse, right? I'm sorry if this isn't what you're looking for, but I'm here for you anyway. Heart hands, heart emoji.

• 23:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. It's a lot, you know?

• 23:06Speaker 00

  This is a very strange message. I mean, I feel like a friend wouldn't respond in this way. They would just be more realistic and comforting. This is a very PR message. It's like if you worked with a PR firm.

• 23:22Speaker 01

  Or maybe he's just a very, very, very caring guy.

• 23:24Speaker 00

  Exactly. And I don't know him, so it could be one or the other or something in between, right? So again, boys come whip it out to turn around. I don't know anything about UTIs, but if you need medicine, if you need a friend, if you need a shoulder to lean on, if you just need someone to listen to you, whatever you need, I know this isn't helpful. I'm here for you. I'm just saying, what the fuck's happening? Are these the same people or not?

• 23:54Speaker 00

  Twenty years after Natalie Holloway disappeared on a high school graduation trip to Aruba, Natalie's mother, Beth, is ready to tell the complete story. Taken, Natalie Holloway is a three-part series that follows Beth's relentless pursuit of answers and justice for her daughter and gives a fuller picture of who Natalie was as a person. It's the definitive account of a case that gripped multiple nations and never let go. Watch Taken, Natalie Holloway, November 4th, only on Netflix. For kids, summer means freedom. And for adults, summer still means freedom, thanks to Mint Mobile's summer sale. Right now, all of Mint's plans are $15 per month, even unlimited. Free yourself from big wireless and switch to Mint for high-speed data and

• 24:36Speaker 00

  coverage on the T-Mobile 5G network. When I made the switch to Mint, everything stayed the same, except for the money that I was saving. I got to keep my phone, my number, save my time, my money, and the coverage stayed the same. No loopholes, no hidden fees. To get your new wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month, go to mintmobile.com/rotten. That's mintmobile.com/rotten. Cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com/rotten. That's it. There's no catch. Upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months, or $180 for 12 months, plan required. $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. Initial plan term only. Greater than 50GB may slow when network is busy. Includes up to 20GB hotspot. Capable device required. Availability, speed, and coverage varies. See mintmobile.com.

• 25:21Speaker 00

  Having insurance isn't the same as having State Farm. It's like showing up for movie night, ready for a heart pounding thriller, but getting a three-hour documentary on lawn care. That's kind of like insurance. Insurance may all seem the same on the surface, but when it comes to getting the help you need, State Farm is the real deal. You wouldn't settle for a snooze fest when you came for a thrill ride. So don't settle for just any insurance when there's State Farm. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

• 25:54Speaker 00

  Some netizens have been pointing out that Jane Doe's responses to all of the accused are overly nice and overly sweet. And I think one of the more nuanced netizen takes that I don't see a lot of people talking about is one big factor I do think should be considered is not only the fact that this is statistically and anecdotally, a lot of people do try to believe that the essay was not essay and that they consented to it because that would mean that their brain doesn't have to deal with the turmoil, that they can act like, oh, this is something that I actually wanted. And they can even try to convince themselves, no, I had a great time. But another factor that should be considered is she's probably a social pariah at the school. Aside from her close friends, which who knows how many she has, and if they're even behaving weirdly around her, or if they're on the fence about

• 26:36Speaker 00

  what to believe or who to go with, who knows how they're reacting. And aside from them, it's likely nobody is showing her care, concern, or sympathy. She's probably being judged. She says all she does is cry. Her reputation is ruined. And these guys are messaging her, hearing her out, making her feel like they're all in this together. They're also victims of this rumor mill that she did nothing wrong. Fuck everyone else. As long as we stick together, we're gonna come out the other end stronger. They sound caring. Why would she not latch on to that if she's in such a sensitive point in her life? It's likely she can't call her parents and tell them what's going on. Who's going to relate to her and care for her right now as she's processing these very big emotions? Jane Doe responds, you're right, it'll get better. And you think everyone's just jealous

• 27:20Speaker 00

  of us? But also, like, everyone needs to grow up because sexuality and sex and shit is changing and stuff like this is going to become more common. I'm also really open-minded, though. I love you, King. Also, tell anyone who gives you shit that I'll actually beat them up. They don't want the smoke, I promise. Later, Matthew texts Jane Doe, you good in the library? Jane responds, Jonathan definitely told people. I heard something today and I know he told people. He was at PyFi two nights ago, too. Matthew responds defending Jonathan, like, and again, he never brings up the Snapchat. Jane is like, I think Jonathan is going around telling people about what happened in that room because he was at the sorority house where all the rumors seem to be starting from.

• 27:55Speaker 01

  Oh, she doesn't know about the Snapchat yet?

• 27:57Speaker 00

  Yeah. And these guys are not telling her.

• 28:00Speaker 01

  I see.

• 28:01Speaker 00

  So he's like, no, he didn't talk about it at PyFi for sure. They wouldn't bring that up in front of him when his story has been, it's not true the whole time. I'll ask him, though, it was definitely one of the upperclassmen in the room who told someone else and it spread. That one is unbelievable, though. Who told you this? If we can narrow down the girl, we can narrow down the suspects. I know it wasn't Jonathan. Trust me, he would never. Trust me, he would never. He sent the initial Snapchat broadcasting free body parts. So I don't know if I trust you on that one. But also, like, what's with the intensity of the investigation if you don't really care? Like, I've never met a group of guys broadcast free body parts of a woman so openly and be sexually involved with them in an easily accessible room, but also suddenly be so upset that people are talking about what happened? Jane Doe responds, she wouldn't tell me who she heard it from because it's one of her friends, so I'm just dropping it. I give up. I'm defeated. Matthew responds, I'm sorry,

• 28:46Speaker 00

  Jane. I know this sucks a lot, but I think hopefully very soon these idiots will move on and it'll be done with. Eventually, Jane Doe messages Matthew and her tone starts to shift as well. And it appears at some point Matthew tries to call Jane Doe, but she texts him and said, I'm with my mom, what's up? It's all right, never mind. It'll sort itself out, hopefully. What? Just give me a gist. My ex told me that I'm being labeled as an assaultor in the public eye. I was gonna ask if you may have said something along those lines to someone, but I know you wouldn't. I haven't said anything, but I do know that people are changing the narrative because like in any sexual scenario with one woman and many men, the woman was probably victim. I know there are rumors I was gangbanged. I've never said anything against you, but I have about Jonathan. She says, I have a friend who was going to KyFi

• 29:29Speaker 00

  and I said, I don't, but I've never mentioned her name. So this is referencing to she's not going to KaiFi, which speaking of Jane Doe was really upset that she was disinvited from the Halloween party. So the guys are talking to her about like, we'll just meet up at the Halloween party at the KaiFi house. She's like, I'm gonna bring cigarettes, like, we'll bring something to smoke, it'll be fun. Then she gets a call from the president of KaiFi, who tells her, for her own safety, not safety, but more so like, for her and for everyone, she probably shouldn't come to the party. And she texts Matthew, like, this is what always happens, women always get the short end of the stick. I know you guys are just covering y'all's asses. But he responds, okay, I appreciate that a lot. Thank you, prayer hands. So he's still confirming,

• 30:12Speaker 00

  like, she's not going out and calling him and assaulting her. Then, November 8th, Matthew texts Jane Doe, Jane, you free to call soon? Cornell Armada, when we call, sending so I remember. So I guess Cornell Armada is some sort of note to self. Jane Doe responds that day, what? I think I'm done talking to you. I know you lied. What? Can you call? No, never again. Jane, what did I lie about? It's unclear if there is a single moment, or if it's a slow realization that dawned on Jane, that she did not like or believe what happened to her at the KaiFi house was consensual. But there is this, um, one reported incident. So about a week after the incident, Jane Doe is online browsing a forum for Greek life. And she comes across a post that reads, are KaiFi brothers Crips or Bloods?

• 30:57Speaker 00

  Because I hear they've been doing just hell, like, gang banging. So I guess they're saying, like, what the fuck is going on in that fraternity house if they're out here gang banging people? Are they, like, part of a gang? Another response, they do drugs and gang raped a sophomore. Report them. Jane Doe says, that's the first time I had ever heard the narrative change that I wasn't a whore, that I was assaulted. She even sends this link to Matthew with question mark, question mark, question mark, and he just responds, ridiculous, I'm going to report them. There are a series of phone calls. Now, some of them have been recorded and they've been getting leaked to the media. However, there are some that I don't think have been recorded, and these are the earlier phone calls, but Jane Doe's roommates, they told the Title IX panel that they were there for some of these

• 31:41Speaker 00

  phone calls in the same room as Jane, and they heard what Matthew was saying. One of them reports that during the conversation, they just heard Matthew apologizing to Jane Doe over and over and over again, and Jane Doe was being rather confrontational with her questions. She was asking Matthew how he could let this happen. Who are these people? Later, on another phone call with one of the accused, Jane Doe's roommate hears her saying, you had penetrative sex with me. I had so much ketamine, my eyes were closed, and you still had sex with me. And by November 3rd, Jane Doe is texting Jonathan. So she went from like, that, nothing illegal happened, in the days right after the incident. She's texting him, like, that was fun, like, I loved hanging out with you and Matt. And then she texts him, let's be clear that 90% of what happened that night was not consensual. I

• 32:24Speaker 00

  was given more key than I can remember. Key being ketamine. And I know I told you that I felt uncomfortable and I didn't know anyone in the room. She details in that text message that one of her only memories was doing ketamine off of Jonathan's private parts, quote, in front of everyone, like a sex doll or sex worker. November 7th, Jane Doe goes to the ER and requests a rape kit. And that same day, there's a recorded phone call between Jane Doe and Matthew. And Jane Doe is just telling Matthew, the only way for me to heal is to know what happened. That's why I'm trying just to piece it together, you know, I'm like, I'm so confused. If I just know what happened, then I can feel a little bit better and move on and maybe be able to stay at the school. Portions of this phone call have been released, so I can't tell you that this is the exact full

• 33:05Speaker 00

  phone call, or that this is the exact series of events in that phone call, because it could have been altered. So the full unaltered phone conversation has not been released. But in one of the recorded phone calls, Jane Doe is asking Matthew, like, how did we even end up in a threesome? Matthew asks Jane Doe, you want me to give my recollection of the entire night? Matthew continues, so you, you come in, say hi. Uh, we start dancing for maybe three, five minutes. And then I pop the question, asking for a threesome. You say, yes. Yes. And then, uh, I remember, like, we didn't know who else to bring, so I go up to Redacted, who was on the dance floor too, and I pop the question, and he's like, yeah. And then we go upstairs. He then indicated that the threesome activity began in the alumni room, and quote, after like 10 minutes, they slowed down

• 33:50Speaker 00

  a bit, drank alcohol, started smoking, and then the case started happening. He continues, and then I think by this point, it'd been like half an hour and everything was hitting me at the same time. I thought I was about to die. I moved to the bed and passed out. He recalls waking up, others coming in, Jane Doe's second consumption of ketamine and later, and from there, it's kind of hazy. I think people left eventually, like, after like 20, 30 minutes, I was still in and out of consciousness. But after that, we moved up to the faux fist, you, me, and Redacted, but I think it's Winston, right? Then you tapped out and we were like, fair enough. And then you moved to my room. Jane Doe asks for the names of all the people in the alumni room that night. And Matthew responds, and again, these are, these are people that are pretty trackable, and this is in the Snapchat group

• 34:35Speaker 00

  chat. He says, I've racked my brain for this, like, mystery part. You know, it's possible that both of us, like, remember this, and it's not true.

• 34:43Speaker 01

  What?

• 34:44Speaker 00

  Yeah. Which Jane doesn't believe it.

• 34:46Speaker 01

  He's trying to say, this might not be true? Our memories might not be true?

• 34:50Speaker 00

  Yeah. And Jane Doe is like, I don't think that's true. No, because I remember looking up and being like, this is too many people. Jane asked how many people ended up in the bedroom and why? Like, the alumni, why are they in the alumni room? And again, the truth is in the Snapchat message, but it doesn't appear that Matthew responds to that. And she asks, like, do you remember how any of these guys walked in? He's like, the door was just unlocked, the party was sort of like crowded. So people started like, um, filling up the balcony, just because there was nowhere to go. So the balcony is the upstairs, like, second floor railing, where sometimes they have the DJ. So they're all like, filling up that area, and then the alumni room is unlocked. And the party's crowded, so people are just like, I guess, getting shoved and pushed into the room. No, it definitely is not the Snapchat group account. Meanwhile, Matthew knows damn well,

• 35:35Speaker 00

  it's Snapchat. Jane Doe tells him, you already knew that I was like 10 shots deep. Matthew responds, you did tell me you were sober, by the way. You, you did. You said you hadn't been anywhere. So he's saying, like, you said that you didn't go anywhere before coming to the fraternity house, which Jane Doe pushes back, saying, that's not true. I never would have said that. Which I also don't know why she would lie about not being at a bar prior to it.

• 35:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, why would she say that I'm sober?

• 36:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:01Speaker 01

  While they're about to get wasted, wasted.

• 36:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, that, and I also don't know why someone would ask. I would imagine that maybe only ask because you're trying to catch them up to getting drunk, like, are you sober? Okay, then maybe you need more drinks. She said that she was 100% sure that she told them that she had been at the bar for the sorority event prior to this, and she said, I never lie. Ultimately, Jane Doe tells Matthew straight up in the phone call, if I wanted to take this somewhere, what y'all did would be classified as gang rape. Which, by the way, there are so many things that people have been picking apart about this phone call. One of the things that is kind of relevant, but not really relevant, is the fact that Matthew asked Jane Doe for a threesome after dancing for three to five minutes. A lot of netizens are saying, it's just not a normal request. The way the whole thing goes down,

• 36:44Speaker 00

  it feels weird. Something about it feels off. To just jump in with that request, it feels kind of...

• 36:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, the idea was formed before the three minutes, five minutes.

• 36:56Speaker 00

  Exactly. It was not a spur of the moment, like, oh my gosh, we're clicking so well, maybe we can click with a third party. Like, it's, even if a guy, after three to five minutes, is like, do you want to engage in something? Just you and me have intimate relations? It's still kind of achy and, like, okay, I think that's the whole reason he invited. But this whole threesome, and if Jane Doe's account is to be believed, and she said that three guys in front already knew her, and she doesn't recall meeting them, some people are speculating, it's been planned and discussed by people. But that is purely speculation, just based off of, I guess, how abrupt the whole thing was. And also, people don't like the fact that he was saying, like, so I pop the question. And everyone's like, why is he acting like he fucking proposed? Jane Doe's attorney has been pushing back to people

• 37:40Speaker 00

  having very strong feelings against Jane Doe because of these messages and phone calls. He says, I think a lot of people don't like that she said, I love you, King. I think the word King, people, so, some people have been really running with it, saying, like, she is idolizing these guys and did this because she wanted to be part of their group. She came out and said, that's just what she calls people, like, that's what she calls her friends. I guess it's like, I love you, twin, I guess, right? Jane Doe's attorney says, I think part of it is, these guys were apologizing, he was being nice to her. Any abuser, that's the classic thing. A guy beats his wife the next day, comes home with roses, and then kind of gaslights them to think, well, I'm not such a bad guy. That's what I think happened in this. I think she really wanted to believe she was a victim, because it's

• 38:24Speaker 00

  really tough to deal with the label of being a victim, a rape victim. It's very hard. And I've seen a lot of people who are survivors, that's the first hard thing to do. One victim advocate seems to agree with this, and says it's a very common process, just saying, one of the first things that people will say on the hotline is, I think something happened. So they're not sure in their victimization. They're not, they're not like, I was brutally essayed, like, I need 911. I think something happened. And she says, and so what people want is some black and white narrative that says, everybody absolutely recognizes what essay is, and this is that, and this is that. And the victim must also know exactly what happened to them and retell it to the exact detail with exactly the right emotions for the remainder of their lives in order to be believed. They say,

• 39:09Speaker 00

  this is profoundly unrealistic and just another avenue to blame victims. But at the same time, many legal experts say, it's very tricky when you're in this type of legal case, because evolving stories is very typical for survivors of essay. However, it's exactly what defense attorneys are going to attack over and over and over again. Another point of contention is, people are asking, maybe all of this is happening, Doe is hearing from people who are telling her, no, that's not consensual. If you didn't say yes, that's not consensual. And then she later finds out about the Snapchat messages. She sees how quickly they're turning their their backs on her and don't really care for her. Did she then decide after the fact that she was raped? Or was that part of her realizing her trauma? And does it change anything?

• 39:53Speaker 00

  I don't know. Some people are debating about that as well. Like if she had said yes to all of this, but then she found out about the Snapchat. Was she tricked into saying yes? And what does that mean? I mean, legally, it's trickier, but morally, I guess the debate is up. I think at points, some netizens believe that Jane Doe being too honest is also harming her case, which is really shitty. A lot of people are saying victims can't be honest because people will nitpick every little thing they say. So for example, a snippet of the Title IX investigation that has been circulating is Jane Doe talks about how she did have a crush on Matthew. And she said that crush was kind of like a quote chokehold. And she would have done quote, anything to please him at the time.

• 40:35Speaker 00

  Netizens are saying, well, maybe anything to please him means engaging in all these sexual activities. So they're saying like, well, now maybe she's upset because she didn't end up getting him at the end. And now she wants to claim rape. Netizens are fighting back on this sentiment, writing things like, "An awful lot of people are defending the right of a pack of men to take advantage of a willfully intoxicated woman, so long as it doesn't dot the i's and cross the t's of the specifics of these state rape statutes." Which I will say, if you do have to bring up the state rape statutes or the penal code in your argument that Jane Doe is not a victim, I feel like you've lost the plot. I feel like you have kind of lost the argument. I'm not saying that this is exactly the series of events that occurred that night, but I'm just saying,

• 41:17Speaker 00

  when you're referencing the penal code, it's kind of getting a bit out of hand. The Title IX investigation, I will say, is not a criminal investigation. The fraternity brothers did have ample time to talk to each other about what happened and what they were going to say about it. I'm not saying that they did in fact do that. I'm saying they had opportunity to if they really wanted to. But one student later tells the Title IX investigation that some of the KiFi brothers were doing quote, "damage control to make sure that Jane was not upset about the situation." One student straight up tells the panel, they tried to contact Jane almost every day after it happened. I guess to keep them on her good side and keep her happy and not upset about the situation. The investigators, the CUPD, they straight up asked some of the fraternity brothers, like, "Did you guys have meetings about this case?

• 41:59Speaker 00

  Like, did you guys talk about getting your story straight or talking about, like, did you guys talk about it?" One of the fraternity brothers who was not part of the accused, he said, "It did come up, but it was in like a chapter meeting." Okay, so he's explaining it was in a chapter meeting. They have a weekly chapter meeting, so all the active members have to be in there. And they just like go over the events, the schedule, all of these things. Dues, any fees, anything that's coming up, anything big. And then he said that, you know, they have like a winners and idiots of the week segment in the chapter meeting. So they're like, oh, here are the winners of the week and like, this is something cool they did. And then here are like the idiots of the week, like they had an orgy in the alumni room, ha ha. And so like it came up in that portion because it was like really idiotic.

• 42:41Speaker 00

  But then he's like explaining this wasn't a, we didn't like have a specific meeting for it. It just came up in a chapter meeting that we were already having.

• 42:48Speaker 01

  That's it? They called them idiots of the week?

• 42:50Speaker 00

  Basically. I don't think that made it any better. And one of the guys, he was interviewed by CUPD and he's like, okay, well, the officer is asking, so, "So what was said about this incident?" And he was like, well, that it was like consensual.

• 43:05Speaker 00

  And so the CPD is like, oh, I mean, listen, I was in a college at one point, you know? Like, let's not be, you're part of the fraternity and you're telling me one of your brothers just had sex and is like, hey, guys, let me tell you about this consensual thing I did. It was super consensual.

• 43:19Speaker 01

  CUPD said that?

• 43:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, even CUPD is like, what the fuck are you saying?

• 43:22Speaker 01

  Oh, my god.

• 43:23Speaker 00

  That's all you heard about it was like, hey, guys, something really crazy happened?

• 43:27Speaker 01

  Really consensual happened?

• 43:29Speaker 00

  Super consensual, as consensual as it gets. I'm not even going to talk about the activity. It was just, just know that it was consensual. It's crazy. Eventually, when Jane Doe finally goes to the authorities, one group chat shows one of the accused writing into the, the fraternity group chat, "Fuck, should I call Jane?" So I do think they have a mole. I think they have a mole.

• 43:47Speaker 01

  Mole around Jane Doe?

• 43:48Speaker 00

  In this group chat. So some of these were probably given by people who were in the fraternity that were being investigated by Title IX or being spoken to by Title IX. But also Jane Doe's attorney says that at some point, one of the fraternity brothers in this group chat did anonymously send Jane Doe screenshots. And they were actually asleep during the party. So they were asleep during when these Snapchats were happening. But it seems like Matthew sends into the Snapchat, "Fuck, should I call Jane?" The fraternity president responds, "Wait a bit for me and executive board to figure out what we're doing because there are a couple of things going on. When was the last time you spoke to Jane?" Matthew responds, "Yesterday. What's the plan of action? Should I call Jane Doe? I don't think she would have reported this."

• 44:32Speaker 00

  Now, side note, the president also tells Matthew to wait because CUPD initially listed the incorrect date for the alleged incident. So maybe he thinks they'll just close the case because it was the wrong date. Or maybe they thought it was a different incident, which doesn't make it any better. But here's what's crazy. I did some weird digging and I found there was a KiFi fraternity template that you can download online. And it's for all the chapters. So it's like for every school in each chapter and it's a template of all of their internal rules of what to do in a crisis. So obviously, if anyone is dying, the crisis is like, you gotta get emergency attention. Like if there's a crime scene, no one's allowed in the room. If someone is dying, you gotta get an ambulance. You can't try to hide them or whatever. That's the main thing.

• 45:15Speaker 00

  But there's some side notes that are recommended by the KiFi fraternity, the national board, I assume, which is things like, if you are being investigated by the police, never wear any of the KiFi shirts. Letters, yeah. They say, "Talk to the president before talking to authorities or the school." Talk to the executive board before talking to these people because statements should be taken.

• 45:37Speaker 01

  Who's on the executive board?

• 45:39Speaker 00

  It depends on each, yeah, like the national board. But I will say, another crazy thing is, um, don't. So there are lots of crazy things that have happened where people have come out and said, "Hey, if shit goes down, don't talk to the executive board of your fraternity." Yeah, don't, don't. Treat them like cops. Like just lawyer up for everyone because they're not looking out for you. They will throw you under the bus if you did something that they think is throwing you under the busable.

• 46:08Speaker 01

  I see. That's why you're saying the fact that the president say, "Let me talk to the board first."

• 46:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:13Speaker 01

  What are you guys gonna talk about?

• 46:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:15Speaker 01

  This is, you are not there, right?

• 46:17Speaker 00

  Yeah. If this is a crime that was reported, was the board there? No, were you there? Like, hello? And why is Matthew waiting on the president? Like, should I call? What's the, what's the action plan?

• 46:28Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 46:29Speaker 00

  It's very odd. So I'm assuming that this template is to some degree accurate because that's kind of how things are playing out. It's very bizarre. And then the Snapchat group just gets dumb again because the brothers are discussing the parties from that month, try to figure out exactly what party this happened at. And one fraternity brother is like, "Wait, was that the night with Jane Doe? What party did we have on the 19th?" Another brother is like, "I think it was the risky business party." They're like, no, that was the 25th. Then they're like, oh, it was the Hawaii themed party. And I'm like, I just...

• 46:59Speaker 01

  They have that many parties?

• 47:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, so many parties. And that, that is why many legal experts think Cornell is gonna go down. This civil suit, Jane Doe has listed Cornell, Mooney's Bar, Tri-Delt, she's named KiFi and the accused. Now Cornell is interesting because the day that Jane Doe went to that party, like 22 hours before, there have been reports in the Title IX investigation that a individual almost overdosed on ketamine in the KiFi house and had to be rushed to the hospital. And there was a ketamine related arrest at the KiFi fraternity house, which happens to be on Cornell campus. So this is not an off-campus arrest.

• 47:40Speaker 01

  A separate incident?

• 47:41Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 47:41Speaker 01

  Someone just got arrested 24 hours ago?

• 47:43Speaker 00

  22, yeah, before Jane Doe arrives. Now, people are saying it was probably in Cornell's best interest to temporarily shut down KiFi, suspend KiFi, and to make sure that they, at the very least, do not have any other official parties. So when these fraternities and sororities have official like house parties, they have to get it approved, like they have to submit it to Cornell. It's not like they can just be like, hey, guys, I'm throwing a rager. These are official fraternity events. But they had one 22 hours after they had been, someone had been arrested at the KiFi house for ketamine usage.

• 48:18Speaker 01

  Cornell didn't do anything about it?

• 48:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, they didn't issue a temporary suspension.

• 48:22Speaker 01

  Right.

• 48:22Speaker 00

  And this is on campus, so Cornell has power. So I think that's where people are saying legally Cornell might be in a pickle mainly because of that. Yeah, so that's a huge thing. I will say, I did look up their policy and it said that they may be temporarily suspended if drug usage is like caught on these fraternity houses and sorority houses. I guess maybe the key word is may, but it's not looking good. And these are just the Snapchats that were submitted by students. Jane Doe's attorney says, "You had a complaining witness who said, 'I was raped.' You had evidence of a crime in the form of that invitation to rape her." So he's saying like those Snapchat messages, he's taking that as an invitation. He said, "That's enough to investigate and more than just meeting her. I mean, think about what must have been on the cell phones of these guys if you can get them right away. They're gone now."

• 49:04Speaker 00

  And all they have to show for this is this very shitty Title IX investigation. And according to the Title IX investigation, like snippets from the John Doe lawsuit, it seems only one of the fraternity brothers shows any sort of outward remorse and contemplation. Again, maybe all of them did, but one student, they say, "I'm sorry that maybe if it wasn't consensual and she was victimized, I was sorry for not stopping it." So this is one of the accused that was not involved in any of the sexual activities, the three sexual big activities of the three threesomes.

• 49:35Speaker 01

  But he's one of the seven?

• 49:36Speaker 00

  Yes. So he's saying like, "I'm sorry that maybe if it wasn't consensual and she was victimized, I was sorry for not stopping it and that I'm sorry I couldn't tell if she was under the influence. Just sorry that I felt like something actually bad happened and I didn't stop it." Which is a phenomenal apology. If you have a lobotomy and somehow got accepted into Cornell, it seems to be the only one that she receives. And it's not even for Jane Doe. I guess it's more so for the panel? I don't even know what kind of apology that is. But in another recorded phone call, there is a recorded phone call between Winston Lee and Jane Doe that has been released. He's talking about how he felt so bad about what's happened to her that he actually thought about writing her a letter.

• 50:17Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 50:18Speaker 00

  Cause he's like, you know, all the rumors. He's insinuating it's like all the rumors and he felt so bad. He wanted to write her a letter. I've never, what? They're not even friends. Also, even when friends feel bad for me, they don't write me fucking letters. That's weird. This is so weird. Why are you writing? What?

• 50:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:35Speaker 00

  He's like, I've thought about writing you a letter and he says, but you know, there was so much going on. He almost says like, you know, people kind of talked me out of it because there was so much happening and so much going on. And Jane Doe is pretty firm and like, I just want to know what happened because I don't like this is why were there so many people in the room? Why were there so many people? What was happening? And he's like, I don't know. I don't know. And then eventually he kind of snaps and is like, can I just ask why you called me? So now he is suspicious because I guess he thinks she's recording it, which she was, but.

• 51:01Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 51:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:02Speaker 01

  He's not, okay. And then?

• 51:04Speaker 00

  And then that was all of the phone conversation that has been leaked so far. I don't know if that's the extent of the phone conversation. But he is asked about this with the panel. So Jane Doe had turned these recorded phone calls over to the panel. And he says, you know, I think when I was having this phone call with Jane Doe, I was concerned that there would be a crime alert that would come out accusing me of things that I didn't do. I was just trying to not argue with her. And for that reason, I was kind of reaffirming that she, what she's saying or kind of giving passing comments. I was not aware that this was a recorded phone call and I was just kind of in a very casual state of mind. I don't know this girl that much. I mean, that was the first time I ever had a conversation with her, really. So I didn't really feel like I had any obligation to be completely telling the truth with her.

• 51:43Speaker 01

  What? Wait, what, what about, what truth? What's the truth?

• 51:45Speaker 00

  So I guess in the phone call, he's not saying like, no, that's not true. Like I did not essay, like none of this happened. What you're describing is not what happened. That seems to be what I'm picking up from these statements. But he's saying like, hey, I was just worried she was gonna alert me for something I didn't do. And like, I didn't owe her the truth. I'm not her friend. Like I barely know this girl. Yeah, I don't know. Honestly, nothing makes sense in my mind. I believe that statement is from Winston Lee because just like judging by the phone calls, it's Matthew Winston and then the rest were text messages. But these are the two recorded phone calls. Unless there's more that we don't know of, right? And it's not surprising that this entire case has become quite political.

• 52:27Speaker 00

  I do think that there has always been a very strong tie of crime and politics, even just the language used of how politicians describe crime can indicate where they stand in their politics to indicate how tough they are in crime. If they use words like law and order phrases like that, the rhetoric of how they treat police officers. It's very politically charged language. But I think more now with these cases, it's becoming this very weird initiation test, almost like a fraternity hazing to pledge your allegiance to a political party. By pledging your allegiance to hating or loving a victim or a perpetrator or believing in someone's innocence or guilt. It's just gotten so bizarre that people cannot even have conversations without just going off their rocker.

• 53:11Speaker 00

  Even Trump has commented on this case. Now, I will say Trump does not like the attorney general that has been named the special prosecutor for this case. Letitia James, it's quite personal, like very personal. He's tried to get the DOJ to indict her on federal charges. She sued him. There was a whole, yeah, there was like a whole lawsuit and settlement. The, the beef runs deep. I think Trump was ordered to pay like three hundred thirty-five million dollars plus interest for fraud. The monetary penalty was thrown out in court, but some of the other stuff still stood. I think it's safe to assume they're not going golfing together anytime soon.

• 53:46Speaker 00

  AOC was at a town hall in Ithaca and she said, I want to be clear that the culture of rape, essay and pedophilia is protected in elite institutions across the United States and including Cornell University in this instance. It has got to stop. Those men posted in a group chat, that means it was normal to them. That means it was acceptable to them. This is a culture. This is norms. These are practices and what we must do is understand that we cannot protect these spaces anymore. Some netizens believe that there should be some sort of middle landing ground. One netizen states, the university immediately put the men on suspension with absolutely no investigation or due process. The police did absolutely nothing to investigate the incident or follow up with the report in any way. It sounds like everyone involved, independent of what actually happened that night, failed to receive fair treatment and reasonable due process.

• 54:31Speaker 00

  They say there has to be a better way than A blindly believing any accusation that anyone ever makes, or B completely ignoring what are obviously very serious accusations. So some people are saying maybe the school went overboard in their power and the DA did nothing, which I don't know. I mean, these are strong sentiments as well. Other netizens have been using this and linking it to a handful of well-known cases where accusers were reportedly found to be caught lying about the crimes, right? Um, but other netizens have been pushing back pretty passionately saying, okay, well, you can think of maybe three cases off the top of your head where someone was fucking lying. We can't even name every single case where someone was gang essayed.

• 55:16Speaker 01

  True.

• 55:17Speaker 00

  And it was found to be true. Like we cannot Nate, we cannot put that in a TikTok comment. Others think it's less about the legal charges and more about like, what do we want our future to look like? One person says, the guy's intoxication does not automatically put them in the same position as the incapacitated woman. Because that's a huge argument. Everyone's like, well, everyone is on ketamine. So everyone got raped. Cause they're like, why is only the woman allowed to say she was raped if she was high on ketamine when everyone's high on ketamine? So is everyone raping everybody? But one netizen with a little more nuances saying, the guy's intoxication doesn't automatically put them in the same position as the incapacitated woman.

• 55:56Speaker 00

  If someone is capable of reading the invitation, deciding to respond, locating the room and deliberately performing a sexual act. It's difficult to argue that he was simultaneously so incapacitated that he could bear no responsibility for that decision. But then others have been pointing to a new recent leak. This was in the Title IX investigation as well, but Jane Doe had reported that her phone was across like across the room in the alumni room and there's all these strangers. She's naked in the bed. She couldn't reach her phone. She felt trapped. She didn't, her wallet, her credit cards had been canceled. She, she can't get an Uber back to her sorority house. She felt trapped in a den of lions is kind of how she describes it. Now there is this one text message around three in the morning where her roommate asks her if she's coming back to the sorority house and she writes IDK.

• 56:41Speaker 00

  So some people have been using this as she had her phone. I don't know what kind of argument that is, but they're saying like, she was not held away from her phone. She was not trapped. She could have called nine one one. She could have called someone. But again, others are arguing that's exactly rape culture. Like rape culture is not just like, haha, we're gonna joke about rape. It's also you don't really feel like you can call nine one one because it's not a very clean cut. I'm gonna tie you up and put a gun to your head. One netizen comments, I think too many men and lawyers and wannabe lawyers are focusing on, will these men be convicted of rape? As if it's the only thing that matters here. It also matters that these guys had large quantities of drugs and alcohol and were freely giving it to underage people, including a known date rape drug. It also matters that they advertised that a woman was available as a sex toy for 50 other men.

• 57:25Speaker 00

  This netizen says rape charged or not, if it's legally viable or not. Quote, I do care that our society finds a way to teach boys and men that any of this behavior makes you a horrible person who many rightfully believe should get ostracized from society if you engage in it. We need more policing of these behaviors in our society, not less, and it doesn't always have to involve the criminal justice system. Side note, I will say that ketamine is sometimes used as a date rape drug, but it's not, perhaps it's not known to be a common one. I think due to access. But also many people tend to remember things that are happening to them, but they are left physically unable. I would say ketamine makes you physically vulnerable, but mentally a lot of people are somewhat conscious.

• 58:06Speaker 00

  Like they have some sort of ability to recognize what's going on around them and in the room. They can remember faces and they can remember things and even things that people are saying, which makes people, I guess, um, highly vulnerable to being reported. So it's not like the go-to date rape drug. Cause usually they don't want you to remember that, I guess. But also another thing to consider here is we don't even know if what Jane took was ketamine. All we know is that she was told it was ketamine. It could have been laced. I mean, other people took it. So I'm not saying like they intentionally laced her, even if it was laced. I don't think it would have been intentional, but it could have really been anything. Like there was no way to say that this is ketamine, other than she was told it was ketamine. Which side note, Jane Doe reports that at a previous gathering at Kai Fi, she declined ketamine before.

• 58:51Speaker 00

  So it seems like Kai Fi has a ketamine problem at Cornell and she asked one of the accused how they knew the ketamine wasn't laced. And you know, it was something like fentanyl and he says that he got it from his plug who works in the Cornell lab. Yeah, I don't know.

• 59:04Speaker 01

  Wait, who, who said this? Jane Doe asked?

• 59:06Speaker 00

  Jane Doe asked one of the redacted. Okay.

• 59:09Speaker 01

  One of the seven?

• 59:10Speaker 00

  It seems like one of the seven.

• 59:12Speaker 01

  Or, or somebody.

• 59:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, she was at the Kai Fi house like a week prior. So based off that, some people have been making their speculations of who the redacted is, right? But she's like, how do you know that the kid, she's like, I've never done ketamine. I'm not gonna do ketamine today. But like, how do you know it's not laced with fentanyl? And they're like, oh, well, I get it from my plug who works at the Cornell lab.

• 59:30Speaker 01

  Like implying this is like a lab.

• 59:33Speaker 00

  Or they know how to test it or something. But also in the alumni room, in the recent videos that came out of the empty fraternity house, there was a fentanyl drug test. Remember? Like a fentanyl test that was in that room?

• 59:44Speaker 01

  Oh, right. Interesting.

• 59:46Speaker 00

  So legally speaking, I think ketamine is going to be important, but I also think it's like been overblown. Like the way that some mainstream media news outlets have been talking about ketamine is like all over the place. Sometimes when it's in regard to the accused, they're saying like, oh, they were throwing up. They were so intoxicated from ketamine. Everyone was just out of it. But then when it's Jane Doe, it's like, I mean, ketamine. So it's like, which one is it?

• 1:00:20Speaker 00

  You know how special it feels when you're deep in a true crime rabbit hole? Or you have to work late again? And someone sends you a little surprise to help you get through? That's the magic of DoorDash. Because showing up isn't always about being there in person. Sometimes it's making sure your people have their favorite meal or necessities before they even have to ask. DoorDash delivers from restaurants, grocery, retail, and convenience stores. So you can show up for the people you love, no matter what the moment calls for. And with Dash Pass, there's no delivery fee on thousands of eligible orders. It's one of the best ways to say, I got you, without saying a word. A family friend just had her second baby, and instead of getting the baby anything, because let's be real, they're not going to remember.

• 1:01:04Speaker 00

  I wanted to splurge and send a DoorDash gift card to the family so that they don't have to worry about meals, groceries. They can just be home and focus on their newborn. I love a DoorDash. It saved me so much time and energy personally. So I just know that they're going to really enjoy the doorstep delivery service as well. DoorDash makes showing up for the people you love easy. Needed that? Delivered. DoorDash. Order now. Twenty years after Natalie Holloway disappeared on a high school graduation trip to Aruba, Natalie's mother, Beth, is ready to tell the complete story. Taken: Natalie Holloway is a three-part series that follows Beth's relentless pursuit of answers and justice for her daughter, and gives a fuller picture of who Natalie was as a person.

• 1:01:46Speaker 00

  It's the definitive account of a case that gripped multiple nations and never let go. Watch Taken: Natalie Holloway, November 4th, only on Netflix. You don't need a finance degree to do the right thing with your money. Acorns has your back. Acorns is the financial wellness app that makes it easy to grow your money and build towards your future automatically. Just choose an amount, set a schedule, and they'll automatically save and invest your money for you. Sign up now and join over 14 million people already investing with Acorns. New customers get a $20 bonus investment just for signing up. Takes about two minutes and could be the quickest $20 you'll ever earn. Head to acorns.com/wrten. That's A-C-O-R-N-S dot com slash rotten to claim your $20 bonus today.

• 1:02:29Speaker 00

  Acorns dot com slash rotten. Limited time offer. Terms and conditions apply. See acorns dot com slash terms for details. Paid non-client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns. Tier two compensation provided. Potential subject to various factors such as customers' accounts, age, and investment settings. Does not include Acorns fees. Results do not predict or represent the performance of any Acorns portfolio. Investment results may vary. Investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors LLC, an SEC-registered investment advisor. View important disclosures at acorns dot com slash rotten. Our most recent merch drop with Shopify went so well, we cannot thank you guys enough. I've seen the things you guys make as well, and I'd love to support you. So if you've ever considered starting your own storefront, take this as a sign to do so before the holiday season is over.

• 1:03:13Speaker 00

  The holidays are pretty much just around the corner, and for businesses, that means one of the biggest shopping seasons of the year is almost here. Shopify gives you the tools to launch, sell, and grow so you're ready for that rush. With Shopify, you can launch your store and start selling in just a few simple steps. No e-commerce expertise required. And once you're up and running, Shopify's mobile app lets you manage your store from pretty much anywhere, including inventory, customer support, and payments. And if you launch before Black Friday, you can take advantage of the extra online traffic that comes with the holiday shopping season. If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to Shopify dot com slash rotten to start your free trial. That's Shopify dot com slash rotten. Go to Shopify dot com slash rotten today to hear your first cha-ching.

• 1:04:04Speaker 00

  And another thing that people have been debating is some people are saying like, the guys are all high on ketamine. Not all, but a lot of them are high on ketamine. And they are so committed to this sexual activity. They can't even get it up. And they're so like dedicated, they're fighting through the sedating effects of ketamine. Because ketamine, lots of people report, you just want to lay down. You just want to lay down and kind of hang out there. Like you just want to lay there because it's kind of trippy. And ketamine is also really hard because you can either be feeling a little good, or you can be in a fucking K-hole. And it's just like, it's hard to trace, right? It's hard to track where you're gonna end. But they're fighting through it. They're falling asleep, waking up, trying to do it again.

• 1:04:49Speaker 00

  Like, what the hell is happening? Like, they are clearly so dedicated to something. What? We don't know. Other people have been saying, the whole energy with ketamine is weird. Like, there has been a lot of like demonization talks of ketamine, like, oh my god, it's a date rape drug, right? But a lot of ketamine users are saying, well, it's not really like a date rape drug. And one thing that they've been pointing out is typically when you do ketamine and you are giving ketamine to someone, and you should never do this, you should never do this because there is only like probably one legal way to do ketamine in the United States, and you cannot give it to other people, it has to be prescribed to you, and it's like ketamine therapy, right? But they're saying like, when you are in the ketamine community,

• 1:05:34Speaker 00

  the biggest thing is like, you want to know if it's someone's first time doing ketamine. Because the first time someone does ketamine, it's gonna hit them so much harder than a regular ketamine user.

• 1:05:43Speaker 01

  First time?

• 1:05:43Speaker 00

  Yes. So like, the ketamine community, they're saying like, these are very common things that people look out for, people know. People are like, oh, it's your first time doing ketamine. They usually like try to help monitor you because it's, it can be very trippy. People can feel like their limbs are very heavy. It's like a weird feeling. They describe it as, it's a psychedelic to some degree where you can sometimes see colors. But also you're very alert, so you're not like on shrooms typically, where you're just like, oh my gosh, I don't know what reality is and like what's happening. Others say it's more of like a body experience, some of it, it hits them more in the body senses. They just want to lay down and they kind of feel spinning, they feel a little nauseous.

• 1:06:23Speaker 00

  Others are saying it's weird because you can almost see yourself laying there, but you can't really like move. And you have awareness of what's happening to you. And you can probably talk, but it's like this very specific feeling that you get, which they think matches up with what a lot of Jane Doe is saying. So all in all, I think a lot of people who do regularly use ketamine or in the ketamine community, which again, I'm not endorsing the use of illegal substances unless you get them through a prescriber in the legal sense. But they're just saying like, they side with Jane Doe in this because even if it's not a crime, what these boys did, giving her the ketamine, knowing it's her first time,

• 1:07:05Speaker 00

  and then still asking her to engage in these activities, to pressure her to invite people to the room. This is predatory. Whether it is predatory in the legal sense or not, it is still predatory. It's morally apprehensible.

• 1:07:21Speaker 01

  I see.

• 1:07:22Speaker 00

  They're saying this is gross. This is disgusting. Like, you would never do this. But some firmly believe that Jane Doe is the perpetrator here. They think that they seven accused having their identities out there and being spread before due process, before they're even charged with a crime, before this even went to a grand jury. They say it's unfair, whereas Jane Doe can remain anonymous, which has created almost this weird twisted movement of people trying to find and dox Jane Doe. Which of course, many on social media have responded with the I am Jane Doe counter reaction. But it's not just social media. I mean, there are people, there was that lady on The View, the show, the TV show, The View. And she says, "The picture of these young men who have not been charged, not been adjudicated, are being plastered all over the internet."

• 1:08:06Speaker 00

  "I think people are reporting this story inaccurately. I think they're reporting it unfairly." And while this is something that we have to take very seriously, there's no way, according to her statement in 2024, that any prosecutor would have brought forth this case. "I prosecuted sex crimes for 10 years. I believe women." I am not saying we shouldn't believe her, but in 2024, she said one thing, and now in 2026, she's saying another thing. I don't know what the fuck is happening, okay? But there are so many like women in media who look like moms. And a lot of them, I had to Google it too, because I'm like, are you a mom? That is crazy, you're saying stuff like this. This is bizarre to me, right? But they're out here dragging Jane Doe and calling the defendants, boys.

• 1:08:49Speaker 01

  But you said she did say that she was raped in the report, right? In 2014?

• 1:08:54Speaker 00

  Yes. She said with 100% confidence she was raped. I think the one part, I guess if you want to nitpick, is that the very first encounter. But also people are saying, maybe she started it, saying she was okay with it. But she did insinuate that she did not like the pain. Right? But I guess some are arguing, well, she didn't say stop. So there's a lot of debate, but I think just if you ever call, if you ever find yourself calling fraternity brothers, boys, I would just pump the brakes. Just, young men is even pushing it. Guys, frat bros, defendants, the accused, I don't know, there's so many other ways to describe them, right? But like, everyone can take a side, everyone can have opinions, but the minute that you say, boys, young boys,

• 1:09:35Speaker 00

  after seeing those Snapchat messages, I don't know what's gonna, what that is, what? She did walk back that statement later. She walked it all the way back.

• 1:09:44Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:09:45Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. And I think her, one of her kids went to Cornell or something, is what I heard.

• 1:09:49Speaker 01

  What do you mean?

• 1:09:50Speaker 00

  And by I heard is, I didn't fact check it, but.

• 1:09:53Speaker 01

  What do you mean she walked it back?

• 1:09:54Speaker 00

  She like went on this podcast and she was saying that, yeah, Cynthia Revo from, um, Wicked, phenomenal actress, singer. But she is working on a piece about consent. I don't know if it's a movie or something that's in the works. And she called her and was having a discussion and everyone's like, this just feels like you're walking it back. It doesn't feel, like, it just didn't feel genuine.

• 1:10:16Speaker 01

  I see.

• 1:10:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:10:18Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 1:10:19Speaker 00

  Megyn Kelly, Megyn Kelly, I mean, what more can I say other than Megyn Kelly, right? She scares me. I gotta be careful with my wording. Like, Megyn Kelly was involved in a massive, massive sexual assault, sexual harassment case that she was one of the victims. Can I say victims? I don't think she would like me calling her a victim. Anyway, she has, she, there's a whole history with Megyn Kelly, Google it, okay? But she says, in her little podcast, in her big podcast, and this woman, who I'm just gonna go out on a limb and guess, possibly isn't the most attractive girl on campus. Like, I was listening to this, I'm like, what's happening right now? Why is she, all of a sudden?

• 1:11:02Speaker 00

  She's saying, possibly just a complete random stab in the dark has some history that made her particularly vulnerable. Because I think most women, I can tell you for a fact, my daughter would never have herself in that position. She's too strong in her ego. She's too sound to ever make these decisions. And I think possibly this young woman may have been victimized in her past, there may have been some sort of insecurity there. She does state that she thinks that many of the defendants are despicable and were acting and behaving in morally filthy ways. She does criticize many of the accused, but she does not, it seems her stance is that that is separate from it being a crime. She believes that there are legal boxes that need to be checked. And just because you do not morally agree with something does not mean that it is illegal, I think, is her stance.

• 1:11:47Speaker 00

  From the very little time that I could spend watching her opinion on this case because I was very lost. I don't know what compelled her to say that first part. I don't know. And I do think, to some degree, I think doxxing anyone on all fronts is incorrect and illegal behavior. Anything illegal is probably, I would not condone it. However, I think that some of this weird conversation about, oh, the boys, the boys shouldn't be receiving this backlash when the case has not been adjudicated. I think the boys are getting canceled for their Snapchat message. And you play stupid games, you win stupid prizes. I don't think it's, oh, we have no proof, we at least have the Snapchat messages.

• 1:12:32Speaker 00

  And like, I do think they should be canceled for that or whatever. Should they be fired from their jobs? I would think so, if I was their boss, but I'm not, because I think they work for like fucking Wells Fargo or something, but I'd probably fire them. I'd get trigger happy, I'd fire everyone. That's crazy. So it's one thing to say, hey, I looked at Jane Doe's lawsuit and I think that these seven guys are guilty of heinous crimes. And I'm going to treat them guilty as if they were charged and convicted of these heinous crimes in the court of law. And then I'm going to dox their address. That's one thing. It's another thing to say, hey, I read her lawsuit, I saw the Snapchat. And based off of what we've been seeing from the Title IX investigation that has been reported by mainstream media outlets, I think that they should be shamed from society.

• 1:13:16Speaker 00

  I think those are very different reactions and I think most people are on the latter. And I don't think we need to wait for court adjudication to jump onto that. But right now, this is an open investigation. Letitia James is working on it. There, it's probably going to go forth in front of a grand jury sometime soon. But a lot of people are trying to get Letitia James off of it, including Winston Lee's attorney, Tenny Garagos, and another one of the accused. Because Letitia James, before she was assigned special prosecutor, she had written on her Facebook page and on Twitter, what this young woman has been forced to endure is horrific and unacceptable. I'm holding her in my heart and in my prayers to her and all survivors. You're not alone, we stand with you.

• 1:13:57Speaker 00

  And she's asked, you know, why did you affirm her allegations as fact without doing your own fact finding investigation? And Letitia James says, I'm not gonna talk about a Facebook post. She's like, I'm not gonna comment on a Facebook post, which like, exactly, but also, I will say, the accused, they didn't call out the DA, Matthew Van Houten, when he very clearly did not like Jane Doe. But they were like, that's fine, he should reopen the case for sure, whatever. I mean, they didn't say that, but. And the netizen comments have been very mixed. One comment reads, 911, what's your emergency? I was robbed last night, please can you send help? And this is poking fun at Matthew Van Houten and they say, uh, are you a lawyer? How can you be sure that you were robbed? That is a legal conclusion.

• 1:14:40Speaker 00

  Cause, um, he was asked like, why Jane Doe said she was raped? And he said, well, I didn't see that, but also that's a legal conclusion, I remember, so. Everyone's making fun of Matthew Van Houten. One netizen comments, one point I've seen floating around that I strongly agree with is basically in response to, men, you need to ask yourselves why no one in the frat stood up for her and what you would have done. It's a very fair question. But one response is that many men would have responded correctly. But that's exactly why they wouldn't be in a fraternity like that in the first place. So, these are like cesspools of just shitty people. So of course they're gonna do shitty things, that's what they're alleging. And they believe that's why a lot of colleges and universities should just altogether ban Greek life.

• 1:15:24Speaker 00

  They're not saying that you should ban academic fraternities because those have really good communities. But these like Greek life where it's just underage drinking and getting hazed is bizarre. One netizen says, colleges and universities have no business investigating or adjudicating sexual assault cases. These cases in particular should be handled by trained law enforcement professionals rather than administrators who have been through training and workshops. So they're saying like, the Title IX investigation is also ass. One Cornell student protesting at Cornell says, too often we are met with silence, we are met with statements, we are met with procedures, but not enough support. How much does it take our university to stand with survivors?

• 1:16:01Speaker 01

  Well, didn't you tell me something about like, the essay comes from Cornell?

• 1:16:05Speaker 00

  Yes, so the term sexual harassment came from Cornell allegedly. It was like first used at Cornell by one of the professors, that terminology, and was popularized. Yeah, but you know, Cornell and much of these older Ivy League institutions have a long history of sexual assault and harassment.

• 1:16:28Speaker 01

  Interesting, wow.

• 1:16:30Speaker 00

  But one person says, from all these reporting and the cultural fallout, my understanding is that a young boy who is inebriated is responsible for not only his own decisions, but the decisions of young women in his company. A young woman who is inebriated is responsible for none of her decisions. So that's great. Cornell's Board of Trustees announced that the law firm, King & Spalding, has been retained to conduct an investigation that will be led by the former Deputy U.S. Attorney General, Sally Yates. It's gonna be an investigation, right? She served under the Obama administration. And it's gonna be an investigation into Cornell's handling of Jane Doe's allegations. But a lot of Cornell students just freaking hate it. They say, I mean, the difference in how Cornell treated protesters

• 1:17:15Speaker 00

  who were protesting genocide in Palestine versus how this case is unfolding is just insane. Like, how those seven accused, a lot of people at Cornell during the time that this happened, didn't even know what was happening. One Cornell building had bright red graffiti writing on there, at Cornell, rapists are protected, protesters are expelled. They also smashed a window there. That's the Day Hall building. That's where, in the parking lot, remember?

• 1:17:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, but that's the center of Cornell's administrative function, so. They were just like, we just wanted to make sure they can't do business as usual. And business was not as usual because in front of probably one of the worst green screens I've ever seen, there is President Kotlikoff of Cornell, and he is doing a statement. It is the mother of all statements. This is, if you had AI write a statement about how to give a statement, that means nothing, but it is a statement that is stating something in the statement. This is the statement. It's 10 minutes long, it's filled to the brim with what I like to call professional nothingness. Like, it, we're just saying words. Hello, Cornellians, students, alumni, faculty, staff, parents.

• 1:18:21Speaker 00

  Include us, okay? Include angry TikTokers as well, because everybody's pissed off, but no, he doesn't. This has been one of the most difficult weeks in our history, and I know many of you are angry, saddened, and struggling. And that those bonds are under extraordinary stress. He describes, quote, what happened to Jane Doe in 2024 is, one, deeply disturbing, two, something that will weigh on the community for years to come, three, my heart aches, four, it raises heartbreaking and troubling issues about essay dehumanization and aspects of party culture, alcohol and drug use, and five, it raises questions around the investigations conducted after the allegations were reported.

• 1:19:01Speaker 00

  He gives the very almost textbook statement that they don't have all the answers, but they're committed to finding the answers and investigating. Which like you already did that, so no thanks. There's also subtle shifting of responsibility that is, I guess it was, it's not even subtle. He says, "I believe we as an administration and we as a community must do better." Why we? What happened? You're the goddamn president, you're the one with the power, why don't you start first? And then maybe everyone will follow after. He continues, "We must do everything we can to prevent what happened to Jane Doe and everyone before her and everyone after her from ever happening again." He outlines a few vague things that the school will be working on, basically saying,

• 1:19:46Speaker 00

  "We need to be the author of our own future as an institution. At the appropriate time, we will speak in greater detail about how Cornell will use this moment, this conversation, this anger to help lead the broader effort to combat sexual assault, not only on our campus, but beyond it." Well, don't get ahead of your horses here. Fix your own campus first, like, you don't have to be fucking superhero fixing everyone, like, I, it's just, the statement makes me so upset. "You have my commitment that this will not be a moment that passes. We will continue taking every step necessary to make Cornell an institution that leads not just in what we say about these issues, but in the work that we do to address them. This is a defining moment in Cornell's history, we must lead the way.

• 1:20:30Speaker 00

  We owe it to Jane Doe and to survivors of assault to get this right, and we must keep each other safe." What? Most of the accused and their attorneys have come out to say that they deny the allegations, that this is not what happened. Some of the attorneys have been a lot more vocal than the others. Jilio Lopes, so he was the one that was filmed on campus recently. Yeah, and his attorney was like, "Yeah, this is what's happening and this is crazy." And he says, "You know, I told Jilio and his parents to expect this story's not gonna end anytime soon." He says, "Let me say it this way, right? I don't wanna take away from whatever Jane Doe's experience was. It was clearly very traumatic to her. We differ on whether it was consensual, we differ on what he saw, what he experienced, and how long he was in the room."

• 1:21:14Speaker 00

  His attorney says, "You know, plaintiff Jane Doe's counsel has masterfully manipulated the media narrative and the consequences are now very real. Mr. Lopes was publicly accosted and is being condemned before the evidence has been fully heard." Scott Kay's attorney states about the Snapchat messages, "Taking part in an offensive conversation is not the same as taking part in a rape." Which like is valid, but we still hate you for taking part in offensive conversations. We can hate you for both, even if only one of them has been proven, you know? But he says, "Please let the process work before recklessly proliferating or coming to a wrongful conclusion about him." He states that he is confident that his client will be exonerated and that he will repair him. He further states, "At bottom, Scott never sexually assaulted or even touched the plaintiff in any way, period.

• 1:21:59Speaker 00

  We look forward to confronting the plaintiff in the court of law for her selfishly false claims with both the evidence and her own words." He says, "We welcome the opportunity and are so confident, overwhelmingly so, it will resolve in the same way it already did previously, with no charges." He says that for his client, this is guilt by association, that something might have happened to Jane Doe, but it wasn't while his client was there. Scott Norris's attorney and team have released a statement saying, "I did not participate in any sexual activity or drug use. I was not found responsible by Cornell for any of the accusations involving sexual activity and drug use, for which others receive serious consequences. I thoughtlessly engaged in a Snapchat and briefly stopped in a room where misconduct happened, but not when it happened."

• 1:22:42Speaker 00

  And it does seem like the two Scott's lawyers are a little more vocal than the others, and I do think that they are in a weirder area of, they're not being accused of engaging in sexual intercourse that Jane Doe claims she did not consent to. Right, and you know, the ketamine coming back negative for at least one of them did, you know?

• 1:23:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, got it.

• 1:23:06Speaker 00

  But, that is where I leave you with the Cornell 7 case. I, it was so hard to sift through all the information out there because it just got, it got very muddy. The opinions got muddy as well. What are your thoughts? Let me know in the comments, stay safe, and I will see you in the next one.

• 1:23:33Speaker 03

  "A perfect crime film," says The Daily Beast. John Turturro gives a career best performance. Sony Pictures Classics proudly presents the acclaimed new thriller, The Only Living Pickpocket in New York. Turturro stars as an aging master pickpocket whose latest score puts him in the crosshairs of a ruthless crime family. Also starring Giancarlo Esposito, Tatiana Maslany, Will Price, and Steve Buscemi. See the film that the LA Times calls "Instantly Classic", opens October 23rd in New York and Los Angeles, nationwide, October 30th.

• 1:24:04Speaker 00

  The Hulu original series, Phony, is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+. Sonny's life is pretty great until he wakes up from a car accident to a world that looks exactly like his, with one exception, his mom. Starring five-time Emmy nominee Connie Britton and Sam Nivola, this small town is hiding the mother of all mysteries just beneath the surface. Watch the Hulu original series, Phony, now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+ for bundle subscribers, terms apply.