Identity After Job Loss, Raising a Daughter, and Overcoming Anger Issues | ASK ME ANYTHING

This week's Ask Me Anything explores the challenges men face when life tests their identity, discipline and relationships. Ryan and Kipp discuss balancing fitness with family, staying sober, managing anger, rebuilding identity after losing a career, navigating divorce and fatherhood, reconnecting with the outdoors, and defining a meaningful legacy. Along the way, they emphasize personal responsibility, healthy boundaries, reflection, identity, and developing the skills and values that endure beyond circumstances. They also share practical strategies for handling temptation, anger and conflict, while highlighting the importance of brotherhood, challenge and time away from the noise of everyday life. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS 00:00 - Jiu-Jitsu Camp and the Importance of Brotherhood 02:03 - Imposter Syndrome, Vulnerability and Earning Your Place 06:34 - Fitness, Marriage and Being Present as a Father 12:56 - Staying Consistent After Quitting Alcohol 19:14 - Getting Control of Anger 30:10 - Identity Beyond Your Career 37:01 - Divorce, Resentment and Protecting Your Kids 40:20 - Why Men Are Drawn to the Outdoors 46:33 - What Legacy Really Means 49:58 - Iron Council and the Upcoming War Room Battle Planners: Pick yours up today! https://store.orderofman.com/products/order-of-man-annual-battle-planner Order Ryan's new book, The Masculinity Manifesto https://www.amazon.com/Masculinity-Manifesto-Establishes-Influence-Credibility/dp/1684513316/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1665048672&sr=8-1. For more information on the Iron Council brotherhood https://orderofman.link/iron-council. Want maximum health, wealth, relationships, and abundance in your life? Sign up for our free course, 30 Days to Battle Ready https://orderofman.link/battle-ready-0

• 0:00Speaker 00

  We as men are wild. The concept is that we are wild by nature. We take risks. We want to explore. We want to dig. We want to build. We want to fight. We want to kill. And we as men don't have that. It's we're docile. All of that's been stripped away from the time we're little. Think about the first rules that you have when you go to kindergarten. Okay, everybody, sit down, be quiet, color within the lines. And if you get quiet, we all put our fingers up or whatever. And then this means to you know, and so we have these female teachers teaching us to imprison the wild man within us. And then we have no outlet to go do it.

• 0:38Speaker 00

  Kip, what's up, man? A little bit of a different change of scenery for me. I'm out here in Maine still as we record this at the Jitsu camp. So it's been it's been a good week, man. Wholesome segment starts with jujitsu. It's been a long time since I actually put like any real level of jujitsu into my life. So it's been good. And I realized that it's not like riding a bike, because the timing is an issue. Like, I still know the principles, but the timing and the conditioning is the problem.

• 1:12Speaker 01

  Totally. Well, and what an awesome, I mean, it one, I'm happy that you're you're you're clear on that, right? That you're like, hey, you know what I mean? I need to make some pivots. But what an awesome experience that is to go out to the immersion camp. It's it's more than just jujitsu. You know this, you know, a lot of guys listening know this. It's it's like a brotherhood. It's it's good to be back around like minded guys getting after it, you know, and think about it. This is a camp where for a full week, these guys are hitting the mats three times a day, training, doing difficult things for a solid week. I mean,

• 1:51Speaker 01

  what other community does that?

• 1:53Speaker 00

  Right. Yeah, it's it's it's a lot. We it seems like really all we do is we eat, train, eat, train, eat, train, and then eat, and then go to bed and do it over again. So

• 2:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05Speaker 00

  It's amazing. I'm enjoying it. We got to get you back out here next year.

• 2:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, man, I feel I can relate to your your segment, right? Like, I was, I mean, who was it? Where did we talk about it last week?

• 2:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, last week we talked about, yeah, we talked about it.

• 2:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, feeling like an imposter, right? Because we've been out of it for a little bit. And it's like, well, you have two choices. Continue being avoiding it because it's uncomfortable, or deal in reality and say, hey, you know, it's not like riding a bike. So what am I going to do about it? Start training more often.

• 2:38Speaker 00

  Right. It's an interesting. So, okay, so here I've been thinking about imposter syndrome because it's not quite to the level, but it's it's it's on par with the idea, the concept of vulnerability for me, like vulnerability has a real definition, the same way man and woman has a real definition. And vulnerability by definition means weakness. So I choose to use proper words based on proper English and proper definitions. And that's why I have a hard time feeling just be vulnerable. It's like, no, no, no, you don't want to be vulnerable. You want to know what your vulnerabilities are, and then work on them. So I understand what people are saying. Okay, I'm not an idiot. But the reason I bring it up is because I kind of have a problem with imposter syndrome. I just

• 3:23Speaker 00

  think we place too much of an emphasis and expectation on who we're supposed to be, or how we're supposed to show up. And I think it hurts us as men. Now, here's what I believe an imposter would be. An imposter is somebody who says, let's take your scenario where maybe your your training has been diminished over the past several weeks or months, or whatever it's been. If you say, oh, yeah, no, I'm I'm I'm training hard. Yeah, I'm training hard, knowing that you're not. That's an imposter.

• 3:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:52Speaker 00

  An imposter is not, hey, I know I'm struggling, or I know I'm not doing what I need to be doing. And so I'm here so I can get back on the path. That's not an imposter, guys.

• 4:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:03Speaker 00

  That's you getting back on the path. So stop this nonsense of saying like, a buddy of ours had this because he recently got promoted. He's like, I just feel like an imposter. I'm like, but you're not. Like, you earned that. Somebody gave that. Somebody awarded that based on what they saw. If you don't have faith in yourself, I understand. That's fair.

• 4:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:24Speaker 00

  But somebody has faith on you. So in the absence of your faith, lean on theirs and act like the belt that you are.

• 4:32Speaker 01

  I hear what you're saying. Like, the imposter would be the guy that that has the belt, and they do think that they're better than the belt. But the guy that goes, hey, I'm not sure if I if I deserve this. That's not impostering. That that is just you being, you know, lack of confidence, or being humble, or something else.

• 4:48Speaker 00

  Humble, right? Yeah, exactly.

• 4:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a really good point.

• 4:52Speaker 00

  I just think if you start talking to yourself and saying, I just feel like an imposter, I think there's something mentally that happens where you start telling yourself, I don't belong in this room. I don't belong with these people. Everything else around me is better than I am. And the proper framing is, I'm really glad to be here. I'm glad that I was invited a seat at the table. I'm excited about the things that I get to learn. And that's humility. Same set of circumstances. One, you're talking to yourself negatively, like, I'm an imposter, I'm a loser. The other is, I'm excited, and I'm really going to step up to the plate to belong with these guys.

• 5:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I love that. You know, let me share this really quick story. I love this, and I think it resonates. It's when I got my blue belt. I was living in New York, and I got my blue belt from Vitor Shaolin. And anybody anybody that's old school, like MMA, you will know who Shaolin is. He's amazing. And I remember I came into the school, and he said, hey, I want you testing, you know, I don't know, in a couple of weeks or whatever for your blue belt. And I said, oh, Shaolin, you know, I don't think I'm I don't think I'm ready. And he goes, and he goes, whoa, that's my decision. If you're ready. That's not your decision. He's like, so if I say you're ready, you're ready.

• 6:13Speaker 01

  Now, if you don't feel you're ready, that's for you to do something about it. So you feel deserving of it. But it's my decision whether you get promoted or not. And I'm like, duly noted, right? Like, yes, sir, got it. Yeah. And I was like, man, that really resonated with me, the way he handled that.

• 6:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's cool. I like that. I like when I like when men are convicted, and then they say it. Not not in a way that's rude or inappropriate, but they're like, no, no, no, you misunderstand. This is the way it is. But they do it with such conviction and clarity that you can't help but respect it, even though it might not feel totally comfortable to hear.

• 6:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally, totally. Awesome, brother. All right. Should we get into some questions? We got your we got our jujitsu in.

• 7:02Speaker 00

  Let's do it, man.

• 7:04Speaker 01

  All right.

• 7:05Speaker 00

  Oh, I think we have a little bit of a time delay or a lag. Can you hear me okay?

• 7:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, I hear you. Nice and nice, nice and loud.

• 7:13Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 7:13Speaker 01

  Okay, all right. Marcus Whitfield, my wife and I have been arguing about how much time I spend at the gym versus the with the kids. How do you personally draw that line between taking care of yourself and being present as a dad?

• 7:32Speaker 00

  I would I would just do it when the kids aren't available.

• 7:37Speaker 01

  So you're not competing?

• 7:38Speaker 00

  Yeah. Right. And then the problem solved, like, the issue is addressed. If your kids wake up at 6:30 for school, then you're at the gym between 5:30 and 6:30. And then then it's just not an issue. Like, there's other ways that we can talk about what's approach, because sometimes there's going to be things that you need to do that will compete with family time, and that happens periodically. But if you can help it, then do it. Like, I know, Kip, one thing that you do is you train jujitsu during the day. Like, you you bring your stuff during the day, take a shower, you know, at lunch or whatever it is, take a quick lunch, train jujitsu, and then go back to work. That doesn't compete with family time. Perfect. Problem solved. No issue that

• 8:19Speaker 00

  you need to address there. So if you're flexible and you work at home, do it at do it at 10 o'clock, you know, your kids are already at school. You probably got a little bit of work done. Go get your train in and then get back to work. So I think there's ways that if we just spend a little bit of time thinking about how our schedule might work, I don't really believe that there's a lot of situations, or at least consistent situations, where it's always going to conflict with something else that you have going on. Yeah. So does that mean that you're going to need to go to bed a half hour early? Maybe. So I think that's a pretty good trade.

• 8:55Speaker 01

  Let me ask you this, Ryan, because I feel, I mean, and I'm not saying this against Marcus, right? But we're obviously talking to more guys here on the podcast, more than just Marcus. You know, I fell into this trap early in my marriage where everything that I did outside the home was a conflict.

• 9:15Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? And it was, and it was part of his like this immaturity of, of a young couple. And it was like, well, if you do anything without me or the kids, then you're being selfish. Right? And some guys that we know, we have a tendency to just stop having friends and everything's just about our home life. And so there's this balance of boundaries, you know? And I, I even experienced this with Asia where when we first got married, I was just like this, I'm doing jujitsu and it did conflict with things. And guess what? I did it anyway. And over time she realized like, okay, got it. This isn't just his hobby. This is really important to him. But it, but I, it required me to have some boundaries around it and prioritize it for me

• 10:00Speaker 01

  to get to that place. Does it make sense?

• 10:03Speaker 00

  Yeah. And, and one thing I would say, when it comes to boundaries is you can communicate with your spouse about what you need, but you don't always need to ask for permission, but you do need to ask for consideration. So if, if you're having this conversation with your wife, you're not, men don't need to ask permission to do things. Okay. And by the way, neither does she. I'm not saying she does either. You don't need to ask your wife for permission, but you do need to take her into consideration. That's probably the best way to say it. So if you're, if you're like, hey babe, I'm going to start training jujitsu.

• 10:46Speaker 00

  And I'm going to go on Tuesday night, but she's been doing girls bunko night every Tuesday night for the last six years. Sorry, pal. You're not doing jujitsu Tuesday night. Wednesday, Thursday? Sure. Not Tuesday though. And that's taking your person into consideration without having to feel like you need to ask for permission. So, and there's tactful ways to do it. And there, and there's just some hills you just don't need to die on, right? If you're both fighting about Tuesday night, but there's a class on Thursday night and that's just as good to you, then let her have Tuesday. Who cares? Why are you going to make that be your battle? You can save your, save your, your energy for something that actually matters, that you actually kind of maybe need to dig your heels in on. But you, you did bring up something interesting is

• 11:30Speaker 00

  you said that she didn't originally understand it, but you did it anyways. I think there's a part of it is a responsibility for us as men to explain that in a way that, that, that she could see it through her eyes. Cause what she sees probably is, well, he's not here to help me. He's not here for the kids. He doesn't love me. He cares about this more than me. He's not helping with this around the house. What she doesn't see is that this is making you a healthier person. This is helping you with your patience and helping you with leadership principles and helping you have a good mental health because you're talking with other men and not having to dump all of that on her. So if you start explaining it from that perspective and she sees that

• 12:12Speaker 00

  that's actually helping in that regard, what ends up happening is she actually becomes an advocate of it. Like, I don't, I don't know if this is the case, Kip, but I would assume that Asia is probably an advocate of you training jujitsu at this point.

• 12:25Speaker 01

  Totally, totally. Right. And the same thing happens with the iron council. Guys will join the iron council and, and their, their wives will be like, oh, your little men group, oh, paying for friends. And they'll kind of mock and poke. And then they get two, three, four months into it. And their wife is like, hey, what would your iron council guys think about what you're doing right now? Or hey, it's Wednesday, it's nine o'clock. This is your meeting time. How come you're not on your call? And the women become the biggest advocate of what we're doing because she sees how important it is, not only for her husband, but for the family.

• 13:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. I mean, let's say it this way. If things are buttoned up at home, it's a lot easier to be spending time at the gym and on the mats. When things aren't buttoned up at home and there's conflict at home, and then we're running off to the gym and the mats, those are going to be greater conflicts in your marriage. Because things are going unaddressed.

• 13:23Speaker 00

  Well, it becomes a form of escapism as a form of, as opposed to a form of healthy habits.

• 13:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. All right. Danny Reese, I'm six months sober after a DUI scared me straight. What's one thing that's actually helped you stay consistent when you quit drinking versus the stuff that just sounded good on paper?

• 13:48Speaker 00

  Um, I mean, there, there's a lot. There is a lot to this, and I don't think it's any one thing in particular. I think it's a, a framework, a, a set of systems. Because if, if I just said, well, you know, just remove all the alcohol in your house. You can run down to the store and get alcohol. Like, that's not a problem. It'll take you two minutes. Uh, if, if all you were doing is saying, well, I have a friend, I have a sponsor I call when I'm tempted. Okay. Just don't call him. And then you don't have to worry about him talking you out of drinking. Like if you-

• 14:22Speaker 01

  You can get around it. Yeah.

• 14:24Speaker 00

  Oh yeah. You can, you can weasel your way through any little system, but the more little webs that you set up, the harder it becomes, right? So if you're like, okay, no alcohol in the house, I don't visit this grocery store or that convenience store or the liquor store.

• 14:40Speaker 00

  You do have a friend group.

• 14:43Speaker 00

  You, when you're tempt, another thing is when you're tempted, have an activity to, to replace it with. One thing that's really been helpful for me is I can have a drink later. So if I'm tempted to have a drink, I'm like, I can do that later, but for now I'm going to go to the gym.

• 15:01Speaker 00

  Because when I go to the gym and I come back, I'm like, nah, I'm good. Like that, that moment has passed for me. Or if it hasn't, then I go right back into, well, I'll do that later. Right now I'm going to cook dinner. Or right now I'm going to call my friend. Or right now I'm going to go do whatever. Go do work. I can, I can always push back a drink, but I don't negotiate that way with things that are important to me, like friendship, hobbies, activities, work activities, emails, things like that. So I always place those as a higher priority. And what hap, like, look at your to do list. Like every man has a to do list. The one that's the least prioritized to you rarely gets done during the day.

• 15:47Speaker 00

  It always gets pushed back to tomorrow, to tomorrow, to tomorrow, to next week, to whatever. Well, the same thing with alcohol. I'm going to, I'm going to push that back. That's my least prioritized thing. And I'm going to do everything else before that. And I'll get to that if I get a chance, but I probably won't. So I think it's a system instead of just like one thing.

• 16:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and systems and often drive

• 16:11Speaker 01

  identity shift, right? Or paradigm shift. And one thing I've heard you say, Ryan, a lot that really resonated with me, even though like this isn't an issue for me, but I just, I don't know, inspires me. But I've heard you say something to the extent that you don't kind of buy into the idea that like, I'm an alcoholic, right? Because you feel like that defines you as someone that has a drinking problem and you kind of have shifted like, no, I'm not. Um, can you share your thoughts around that and, and how that has been powerful for you? I, I know that kind of goes against, you know, AA or whatever, Alcoholics Anonymous, but like, I don't know. I just, I, I love that idea that you've shared in the past.

• 16:55Speaker 01

  And maybe that would be valuable for Danny.

• 16:58Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, I'll share it. I, I don't want to undermine anybody who uses that and it's helpful. Yeah. Right? Like maybe five years ago, I would have said, you're an idiot. You do that. And now with a little bit of humility, I can say that doesn't work for me. This works for me. But if, if, if going to an AA meeting and, and introducing yourself as an alcoholic is what keeps you on the path, do it. I mean, it's not, there's nothing wrong with it. If it works for you, do it. There was this woman who, um, she was sober for like 30 something years. And she kept going to her meetings and she would always introduce herself as an alcoholic. I'm like, are you though? Like, are you?

• 17:41Speaker 00

  I commend her. Like I, I think it's awesome. I think it's great. I actually really resonated with her probably more so than just about anybody else in that group. But it was always interesting to me. I'm like, I don't think you are. I don't, you keep saying that word. I don't think it means what you think it means. And, um, but yeah, for me, it's, it's like, no, I'm not. I know why somebody would say it because the whole idea and concept is that in a way you're weak and powerless against it without outside help, right? The help of God, the help of the support system and group. I believe that can exist and also believe that I'm not defined by being impacted differently by alcohol. And that's really what an alcoholic means is that it impacts you in a different way. And I think part of it is biological, right?

• 18:26Speaker 00

  Our bodies respond different. Like when I was drinking, I could put down, I could, I could drink a lot, Kip, like more than the average person. And there's actually scientific studies that suggest that there's certain biological makeup and even, even pigmentation and hair color come into play, or at least are correlated to it. It's interesting.

• 18:52Speaker 00

  So yeah, basically biologically, a body might respond differently to somebody who's not prone to alcohol abuse. Also, uh, it's genetic. Um, also it's, it's a mindset. You know, if you have a very addictive focus type personality, you're going to be more prone to addiction, whether it's pornography or drug abuse or alcohol abuse. So there's a lot of factors at play here. And so I know what people are saying. And if that's what it takes to help them make a system, then by all means, but I don't define myself as that. I define myself as not that. I'm not that. Now I have a propensity to it. I'm tempted by it, but I'm not that.

• 19:35Speaker 00

  And so I'm going to create systems that keep me from this and other systems that move me towards my chosen identity that are going to help me both the carrot and the stick, if you will, like we've talked about in the past.

• 19:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, I like that. Thanks for sharing that. Um, Nathaniel Cross, I've got a temper and I inherited it straight from my old man. And I hate it. Would it actually work for you to get control of your anger instead of just white knuckling it?

• 20:06Speaker 00

  Well, we just talked about genetics. I don't actually know the science behind this. Maybe you have some insight or somebody else does. Again, words are important.

• 20:16Speaker 00

  Because the words are interesting. They're just noises we've assigned meaning to so we can understand each other.

• 20:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:23Speaker 00

  Like we have the, we have breath and we have vocal cords and it makes these weird noises and we manipulate our mouths to make it make that sound. That's it. That's all noises are, or words are. Spoken words anyways.

• 20:35Speaker 00

  So you said, I inherited it from my father. I don't know if that's the case. A propensity for anger is genetic, possibly. I don't know. I would choose a different word. I would say I learned that from my father.

• 20:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:51Speaker 00

  Because inherited is powerless. Learned is, well, I picked that up. I can pick something else up. And I think that's more empowering. If you learn that, you can learn to be something else. So there's a little, maybe a nuance to consider. And maybe he's just saying it tongue in cheek. I inherited it from my father. I know people are joking and stuff, but it, but it's important, I think. It's like, no, you learned it along the way at some point. You learned that when things weren't going your way, that you're gonna yell and you're gonna scream and you're gonna shout and you're gonna throw a temper tantrum and then people are going to behave the way that you want them to. And that is your form of leadership. I mean, you talk about this, Kip. In fact, we've got a, um, we've got a war room coming up. I think it's September 16th.

• 21:35Speaker 00

  And you're gonna be talking about forms of leadership, healthy and negative forms of leadership. And one is the enforcer. And that kind of falls in line with what anger is, is like, if I just yell, if I just shout, if I be intimidating, if I impose my will against somebody, then they'll do what I want them to do and it'll be good for them. That's a problem. So the que, the question was, and by the way, if you guys go to orderofman.com/warroom, you can sign up for that and it's gonna be September 16th at 8:00 PM Eastern. So it's, and it's free. It's a free training that Kip's, Kip's do. I'll be there too, but Kip's hosting that training and we're excited about it.

• 22:17Speaker 00

  What helped me? I would say a couple of things. Number one, get yourself out of the environment for a minute because there's gonna be something that's bothering you in that moment. Right? And so part of what it is for me is if my kids are disrespecting me, I hate disrespect. It really bothers me. So if I feel disrespect, even if they're not being totally disrespectful, or even if they're not trying to be, but I feel like I'm being disrespected, bro, hammer's coming down. It just drives me up the wall. And so I choose to disengage for a minute. Like, hey, I might even just be going into my room for a minute and like, close the door, you know,

• 22:59Speaker 00

  take a breath, put some cold water on my face, breathe. Maybe it's go for a walk. The problem will still be there. Okay. You don't need to address it right there in the moment. The prom, promise, the problem will still be there. Go for a walk, cool down, calm down, go out into the garage, get a little lift in, you know, read, read a book potentially. I don't, I don't, that probably wouldn't do it for me, but I know it does for other people. Say a prayer, meditate, breathe, box breathing.

• 23:25Speaker 00

  Whatever you need to do, just to like, get yourself in a different environment than the one that's stimulating you right now. Because then you're gonna start seeing it different. And I've, I've never had it not happen where I didn't go for a walk or go in my room and, and lay down for 30 seconds and think, okay.

• 23:42Speaker 00

  All right. Like, yeah, you're feeling disrespected. There being little turds that can exist as well. And also, what's the best way to handle this? Is it to just yell and kick and scream and shout? Or is it to talk with them about why it's important they have respect and they, they treat me with respect and how I expect to be treated and talked to. And then you can actually have a really healthy conversation. But I think the two things that have worked for me is find something to get yourself out of the environment and then just let a little space pass. Just let it pass. And tell them, you know, hey, guys, like, I'm really bothered right now. I feel like the way that you guys are communicating or what you're doing is very disrespectful. So I'm gonna ask you to stop. I'm gonna take a beat for a minute.

• 24:27Speaker 00

  So I don't do something that I will regret later. And I'm gonna ask you to go to your room. I'm gonna ask you to go to your room. And I'm gonna ask you to go to your room. And in about 10 minutes, we'll all come back in the living room. We'll have a little pow wow. And then we'll go on with our night.

• 24:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:44Speaker 00

  And that seems to help.

• 24:46Speaker 01

  I like it. I, I've used the analogy of like, we're in the jar, right? And you can't see the label when you're inside the jar. And so, you know, that stepping away is like kind of getting out of the jar. So you can see the label on the outside and go, oh, got it. Right? Like, that's why I was so upset in there. And, and one thing that I think is important is when we're looking at the label, when we've removed ourselves from the scenario, is getting present to the long-term objective. Often what I think happens is we lose sight. See, enforcement works. Anger works.

• 25:23Speaker 00

  It does work.

• 25:24Speaker 01

  Right?

• 25:24Speaker 00

  Fast.

• 25:25Speaker 01

  This Daniel, it totally works. Yeah. Yeah. You, you can yell and, and they'll do what you want them to do and, and the room will get clean or they'll say sorry. Like, there's all kinds of things that you can get people to do utilizing anger. But was it about the room? Right? Is that your role as dad? Is to never be disrespect, disrespected in life? Is that your mission and purpose? Ah, no, it's, it's to teach these kids. It's to be a good example. It's to give, give them feedback so they can learn and grow and learn how they should treat people. Okay, got it. I can't do that if I'm in the jar and I'm operating it from a different mindset. And so realize it works, but also realize, look at, I think most of the time when we're

• 26:10Speaker 01

  anger, when we're angry, we're operating in the moment of like a tactical win. How do I fix not being disrespected? But I'm not thinking strategic and long-term usually.

• 26:23Speaker 00

  Yeah. The only, the only thing I would add to that, and I agree with everything you said, is I would, I would also take it the other way on the timeline. So you're talking about projecting yourself forward into the future, right? Like, I'm gonna do things that are gonna have a positive impact over a long period of time. But I would also say, take it backward. And at the end of the day, one thing that you can do is just sit down and say, okay, journal every night. I had this experience and my, you know, my five-year-old did this thing and it just pissed me off. Unreasonably so, because now you have a little time between what happened and now. And this is how I wanted to react. Like my knee jerk

• 27:02Speaker 00

  reaction said, you know, I should not say what I was gonna say. But write down whatever came to mind. Okay. Write it down. Drop kick that little turd across the living room, right? I didn't do that. And instead I did X, Y, and Z. And that seemed to help calm the situation down. And here's how it turned out. And then the other part of that to go back is to say, why did I feel disrespected? Where did that come from? Where did I first associate that behavior with disrespect? And then, when did I learn that disrespect warrants this response? And who did I learn that from? Your father, you said it. And start working through some of that as well.

• 27:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, man. Reflection is so important. In the Iron Council, you know, we have a chance to reflect at the end of every quarter, right? And we, we have a month left in Q3. And it's just a good time for us always in the IC to just pause and go like, how did that go? Right? Am I improving my relationship? And, and there's just huge power in it. In fact, yesterday, man, I, I found this old video. Um, what was it? Oh, my Google Drive is running out of space, right? And so I'm like, searching for large files to, you know, delete. And, no, no, it wasn't that. It was, uh, Asia sent me this video. And it was Koa. And he was probably about three years old. And I'm getting ready to leave the house in

• 28:30Speaker 01

  the morning. It looks like I was probably going to the office or something and he's crying. Does not want me to go. Right? And he's like, no, no. And I, I'm like, I give him a kiss. I close the door and he just starts bawling, daddy, you know, and he runs to the window and he's looking out the little window and he's like, bye, you know, love you. And my heart's like, I'm watching this, you know, it's been 40 years and my heart is just being torn, you know, like, I'm so sad for this little kid. And I reflected. I went, how's my relationship with him now? Does, when I leave or when he goes to school, is he a little sad?

• 29:09Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 29:09Speaker 01

  Does he want to hang around me like he did when he was three? Or is he happy to get rid of me? You know, and, and I think that's powerful for all to consider. I mean, maybe we're not in the space of like, I'm angry, but we might be coming across angry.

• 29:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:28Speaker 01

  You know, and, and we're not gonna be aware of that unless we kind of pause and reflect a little bit in regards to how we're showing up.

• 29:34Speaker 00

  Well, we also need to remember, I think this is important. I mean, I've heard my kids say this. I heard my ex-wife say it. And it's not, it's not exclusive to me. I've heard this in multiple scenarios. Men are scary.

• 29:48Speaker 00

  Like, we're bigger, we're stronger, we're more stern, our voices are typically louder, they're deeper, we're way more blunt and direct than empathetic, generally speaking. So to a woman, even if you think you're communicating effectively, you have to understand that a woman is interpreting that as, I'm a little vulnerable here. And kids look at it and now you're significantly bigger, you're significantly louder. And so they're like, why are, my kids used to say, why are you yelling? I'm, I'm not yelling.

• 30:22Speaker 00

  And I genuinely didn't think I was. And I will fight to the day, this day and say, I wasn't yelling. But if I look at it from their perspective, I was yelling. If, if ants could talk, they would think that we were mega giants. And yet, I don't think we're giants. We're just normal sized. Alright, it's all perspective.

• 30:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. Alright, Sal Vitell. I got laid off after 14 years at the same company. And erect more than my bank account, erect how I see myself. How do you separate your identity as a man from what you do to work? And we see this a lot, huh, Ryan? Like, I, I think this is kind of common, right? Like, guys, I don't know, man, I've seen this where like, a guy loses his job and then like, they almost go into depression and then it's a, it's a really difficult time for a lot of guys if, if they lose their job.

• 31:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's a real, I, it's a good, it's a good word of caution for anybody who's not in this boat, where, you know, they, they haven't lost their job, um, they haven't retired. That's another one. Just retirement's hard on men. Um, or they haven't been medically disqualified from, from doing work. You see that a lot in the military. You guys get injured or hurt or shot or whatever, and they get thrown out of the military and it's like, who am I now? And that's the question that you should ask. Who, who are you? And there's, there's one prompt, um, that, that I, that I like, that will help you do this. And it's a, I am a man, it's, it's kind of hard to like, like, describe it, but I think you guys will get it.

• 32:07Speaker 00

  I am a man who, and then you fill in the blank, but it can't have anything to do with external factors. It has to be internal only. So for example, I am a man who loves his family. I am a man who honors people. I am a man who respects myself. I am a man who will do the right thing, even when I'm tempted to do the wrong thing. I am a man who believes in being honest and being moral.

• 32:45Speaker 00

  I'm a man who believes in God. Like, all of these things are, can be true without some external factor having to exist. Even the one of like, I'm a man-

• 32:56Speaker 01

  Define it.

• 32:57Speaker 00

  They don't. Like, even, even if you said, I'm a man who loves my family. Heaven forbid, if a member of my family passed away prematurely, I can still be a man who loves even a, even a dead relative. Them being alive is not even a factor in, in that. So I would spend a lot, and that's why when we do, um, our vision planning inside the Iron Council, we do, we have, it's a, it's a, there's two parts to it. There's the goals based, right? Like, for me, I want to own a ranch in Montana. That's a dream that I have down the road. I, I can see it. I, I know what the house looks like. I know what the property looks like. I know what kind of work I'm doing on the property. I know what kind of friends are coming to the place.

• 33:38Speaker 00

  I can see that. That's goals based. The values based is, I'm going to be a diligent and hard worker. I'm going to be prudent with my finances and resources so that I can get myself to the position where I will achieve that thing. And, and that's why, that's why I think the values based vision is in many ways way more important than the goals based vision. Because the, if I never have a ranch in Montana, I can still do all the right things because it's not contingent upon my external circumstances.

• 34:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:14Speaker 00

  And by the way, look, so here's, so here's an interesting thing, like about work, let's say. So if you say, I'm a man who, who values, I'm a man who prides himself on being valuable to others.

• 34:30Speaker 00

  Okay, I can do that at XYZ company. I can do that at ABC company. I can do that here. I can do that there. I can do it in work. I can do it in charitable circumstances. It does, it's not reliant or contingent upon me working at that particular company. So for this gentleman, I'd spend some time really, really reflecting and saying, okay, who are you at your core that is not contingent upon X outside circumstances? And then go get another job.

• 34:58Speaker 01

  And you know what's great about this is you're a better man for this. This isn't like, ah, you know, this is plan B. You lost your job, you know, have a more definite, uh, form of purpose and clarity of who you are. No, no, you should do that anyway, whether you lost your job or not. And you're going to show up more powerfully, um, for the next employer or where you're currently employed. I, this is a really strong way for us to identify who we are and, and latch onto an identity that's not, um, um, dependent on our circumstances and/or dependent on things outside of our control.

• 35:35Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we, we have, I mean, everybody knows an example of this, but we have a friend, Kip, who, uh, retired from law enforcement after 25 years. And for a gentleman like that, and we've seen this over and over again, especially when it comes to LEO, um, uh, military members, you know, when they retired, many, in many cases, a lot of these guys are young because they got into the department or into the military when they were, you know, 20 years old, 18, 20 years old, and they're 25 years in and they're now 45. That's my age. That's not old by any means. Right? Um, if you pride yourself and you think you're only valuable as a police officer,

• 36:19Speaker 00

  for example, or a, or, or a soldier, or a airman, or a marine, when that's gone, and it will go away, inevitably it will go away. If that's all you built your value on, you're going to have a hard time. But if you, if instead of that, you broadened it out and said, I'm a man who values protecting my community and my loved ones. Well, you can do that in a lot of different ways. Law enforcement is one way. You could, you could become a firearms instructor. You've got a set of skills that could teach other people how to carry firearms. You know, you, you could do that in so many ways. And that's why I really like the book. It's a little bit older now, which sounds crazy. It's probably 10 or 12 years old.

• 36:58Speaker 00

  It's Start With Why by Simon Sinek. And, uh, I would highly encourage this guy to read that and everybody to read that book. So you're starting with the why as opposed to starting with the what you do.

• 37:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I know if you guys even want even more additional assistance around defining that why and how that relates to systems that we kind of talked about earlier, um, you know, join us in the Iron Council. Orderofman.com/ironcouncil to, to get on the path with a group of other guys doing the same thing. Yeah. Alright, Ben Kalowski. I went through a divorce two years ago and still can't, and I still catch myself resenting my ex in front of our son. How do you keep that poison from leaking onto your kids? And, and what do you mean? What do you think he means by resenting my ex in front? Like, saying, like, speaking bad things, probably?

• 37:52Speaker 00

  Yeah. Probably just like taking little, I mean, that happens all the time.

• 37:55Speaker 01

  Jabs.

• 37:56Speaker 00

  Little jabs, little pop shots, you know, like, oh, yeah. Like, let's say, let's say your son said, oh, mom, you know, mom said she was going to do this thing and she didn't do it. And you're like, yeah, that sounds about right. Or that tracks.

• 38:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:10Speaker 00

  Right? Like little, like little passive aggressive things.

• 38:13Speaker 01

  Things never change. Yeah.

• 38:14Speaker 00

  Right. Stuff like that. Exactly. And you can believe that. And it might even be true. You don't need to vocalize it. So here's what I would do, or here's what I would suggest. Stop thinking poorly of her.

• 38:28Speaker 00

  Because then you don't need to worry about, is it going to slip out? Because what you're, what you're trying to do is you're saying, my leg is broken and I'm just going to put a, a, a Band-Aid over it and expect that some, some blood and pus isn't going to ooze out of the wound of a compound fracture. How's that going to work? Here's an idea. Fix the fracture. And then you don't have to worry about it oozing out. So how do you do that? That's the real question. And the real question is, focus on the redeeming qualities. And she's got some. Believe it or not, she's got some.

• 39:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:09Speaker 00

  Because you guys had a kid together and you were in a relationship at some point. And, um, yeah, you can still be honest and you can still reflect upon how the relationship was and how she was and what you want and what you don't want in a new or, or existing relationship. But the more you focus on the resentment that you have towards her, the easier it is to seep out into other aspects of your life. So focus on the redeeming qualities. Maybe she is, like, my ex, she's a loving mother. She's a great mom. I've never doubted that. I've never, that's, I'm not lying about that. I'm not like masking it to try to fool myself into thinking something else. No, she is a great mom.

• 39:53Speaker 00

  She's highly engaged with her kids. She homeschools the kids. Um, they, they, they love her to death. They have fun. She, she's, she's, does fun things with them. She's great at that. She's also very kind. You know, she, she cares about people. She, she wants to pour into people. She wants to serve people. Like, I can choose to focus on those things. And there's things that I don't like.

• 40:19Speaker 00

  And just so what? Like, there, I like you a lot, Kip, and there's some things where that bothers me. So, so what? Like, I choose to focus on what I like. And that works for me.

• 40:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think that's spot on, man. I mean, we can't hide it. And that goes for so many things in life, right? If we see people as a problem, it doesn't matter what you say, they, they'll know.

• 40:42Speaker 00

  Even your facial expressions.

• 40:44Speaker 01

  Sense it. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Alright, Wyatt Solomon. I feel more like myself in the woods than anywhere else. Uh, why do you think so many men are drawn back to the outdoors? And is that a real fix or just a temporary escape?

• 41:04Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 41:06Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 41:06Speaker 01

  And is a temporary escape really bad? I mean, I don't know if I'd label it as a bad thing. Yeah.

• 41:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't know. Maybe, maybe not an escape, maybe a reprieve is, is the right verbiage. It's like, cause here's the reality, we're stuck in these concrete jungles for the, the, the majority of our lives, right? And we as men are wild. If you, if you've never read, um, Iron John by Robert Bly, read that he talks about the wild man and we need to tap into the wild man. Um, uh, John Eldredge talks about this in his book, Wild at Heart. If you haven't read that book, that, that one transformed my life, literally transformed my life. And so if you haven't read that, read that too. But the concept is that we are wild by nature. We take risks, we want to explore, we want to dig, we want to build, we want to fight,

• 41:52Speaker 00

  we want to kill, we want to burn things and bring, bring home the, the tiger skull and, you know, conquer the neighboring tribe and jump out of that tree to see what would happen if we jump out of that tree. You know, you'll break your leg is what'll happen, but you still want to see it, even if somebody tells you, you still want to experience it. And we as men don't have that. It's we're docile. All of that's been stripped away from the time we're little. Think about the first rules that you have when you go to kindergarten. Okay, everybody sit down, be quiet, color within the lines. And if you get quiet, we all put our fingers up or whatever. And then this means to shh, you know?

• 42:31Speaker 00

  And so we have these female teachers teaching us to, to imprison the wild man within us. And then we have no outlet to go do it, even at recess. It's like, okay, you know, at recess, you can go play this or this, but you can't be too rowdy. Oh, you're being too loud. You can't be too loud. Oh no, the tetherball, we don't do that anymore. Cause little Timmy whacked his head on the tetherball pole because he wasn't paying attention. And so instead of telling little Timmy, he's an idiot, we just pulled out the tetherball pole.

• 43:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:01Speaker 00

  So everything in our society strips all of this away. So that's no wonder to me that will, I mean, this is what I'm doing this week is like, I, I go and I fight other men for fun. And, and then we try to hurt each other. Like we try to literally choke each other. Our, the shirt on the tagline, guess what the tagline for camp is?

• 43:27Speaker 01

  What?

• 43:28Speaker 00

  Choke your friends.

• 43:31Speaker 01

  I love it.

• 43:34Speaker 00

  It's, this is what we need as men. We need this, but we don't have it in any other context. So that's the answer as to why we feel like ourselves, because we're letting ourselves be ourselves. And I consider it a, maybe not even reprieve, a recharge, a draw back to, to our, to our core, so then we can go tackle the stuff that's in front of us.

• 43:58Speaker 01

  I think for me too, I totally agree with you. All of that is true for me. I think being out in the woods though, also centers me on how great life is and what's really important. It just simplifies things, you know, when, when the focus is make a fire, eat some food and find some water. It just, it, it lets me look at life and realize how much of that is just noise. All this stuff that like, I think is important in the grand scheme of thing, uh, of things is not, it's not important at all, you know? And, um, you know, this is why I love about small towns, you know, a little bit, because

• 44:43Speaker 01

  their focus is not all the noise of the world and, and politics and all these other things. They're very simplistic and, and there's something to be said for that.

• 44:54Speaker 00

  I also think along those same lines, it's just, you're free of distraction, right? I mean, I've got one, two, three, four, five. I've got seven tabs on my browser pulled up right now. I can, my phone's in my pocket, I can feel it buzz, it's buzzed at me half a dozen times. I've got people walking by here. I've, I've got, I've got an agenda this afternoon I gotta follow. I've got a calendar. I'm like, I could get to these other appointments. Like I've got so much going on, but when you're out camping even or hunting, it's like, no technology, no alarms, no chirps and chimes and notifications. It's just, that's part of the reason I like whitetail hunting. I was talking with another guy this week and he, he's mostly Western mule deer hunting. So he's doing spot and stalk, right?

• 45:39Speaker 00

  So he'll glass up on a hill, find a deer and like work into it, which is great. That's cool. I like that form of hunting. But he's like, oh, whitetail hunting is hard. I'm like, it's not hard. What you do is hard. I just have to sit in a stand. That's not hard. And he's like, no, that's what makes it hard. You have to just sit there and be present without anything to do. I'm like, yeah, good point. Good.

• 46:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. But there's power in it, right? And that's why we love hunting, right? There's so much power in it. Like I, I remember the first time we were in Molokai, I literally watched a spider create, um, a, a web. I literally watched it. I, I remember thinking like, is it gonna start like make the, the center first? Or is it gonna start on the outside? Like I literally got to watch and know for myself if it was going to do the outside and work in or in out. It was fascinating.

• 46:37Speaker 00

  Was it in and out?

• 46:38Speaker 01

  Out. Yeah, out. And then it worked in. I was like.

• 46:42Speaker 00

  It did? I thought it was the other way around.

• 46:44Speaker 01

  I don't know if it's a weird spider, maybe it's a dysfunctional spider that I found in Molokai, but I was like, that's fascinating.

• 46:51Speaker 00

  I mean, you've never really lived until you've sat in a tree stand where it's, you know, 20 degrees and you're freezing and you're watching a squirrel on a branch next to you and you're just watching it like fill its mouth and eat and like do little moves. And yeah, it's hilarious.

• 47:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh man, it's so great. Do you have time for one more question?

• 47:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, let's take one more. No, let's take one more.

• 47:12Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 47:12Speaker 00

  We'll do a rapid fire.

• 47:13Speaker 01

  Let's go with Hollis, uh, Bregman. I had a heart scare last year. Nothing major, but it made me think hard about what I'm actually leaving behind. What does legacy mean to you outside of just money and a last name?

• 47:32Speaker 00

  Um, to me, I think legacy is just a, a set of behaviors and beliefs that you've taught to the people who are important to you. You know, hard work, honesty, compassion, kindness, empathy, toughness, grit, resilience. So that's what I think of. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I definitely would like to leave my kids in a better financial position than, than I was, but I think more important than the financial position is all the skills that it took me to get to that point. It's, it's kind of like, if, if you're trying to learn, learn a skill. But let me, oh, so let's give you, I'll give you in a jujitsu example and then a firearms example.

• 48:13Speaker 00

  So if I were to ask you, Kip, let's say you know nothing about jujitsu, nothing about it. And I say, hey, I can give you one of two things. I can give you the best gi, the best belt, the best instructor, the best mats, the best gym, the best academy. I give you all the best tools. Top notch, like world champions use this stuff. I'll give you all the best tools or I'll give you the best skillset.

• 48:44Speaker 01

  Go for the skillset.

• 48:46Speaker 00

  Even if it means you don't have a dojo, you don't have, you don't even have a gi, you're gonna roll on grass and it's gonna be miserable. Do you choose skillset or tools?

• 48:58Speaker 01

  Skillset.

• 48:59Speaker 00

  Right. In firearms, if I said, Kip, I'm gonna give you this pistol, top of the line, beautiful, beautifully crafted, precise, custom made for your grip, got the perfect vortex sight on it. And I'm gonna just give it to you. Or I'm gonna give you the old beat up revolver that misfires every sixth round. That was your grandpa's that isn't chambered quite correctly in that one chamber and the trigger's a little sticky. But I'm gonna give you all of the skills to proper shooting technique and form. Which one do you want?

• 49:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally.

• 49:40Speaker 00

  Always, always the skills. Same thing with legacy. I can give you the business. I can give you the house. I can give you the 401k. Or I can give you the skillsets it took to achieve it. That's what I think legacy is.

• 49:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And I love, I love it because it aligns perfectly with what I believe allows us to live a life full of fulfillment as it, and it's what did we, how do we serve those around us, right? Are they better off? Did we pour into people? Did we help them, um, progress not through tools, right? But through learnings and, and building confidence and opportunity. And man, when we do that, we build a legacy, but we also live a great life.

• 50:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, definitely.

• 50:33Speaker 01

  Amen to that. Okay, brother.

• 50:35Speaker 00

  All right, brother. Bring us home.

• 50:36Speaker 01

  Couple, yeah, a couple of action items, you know, join the iron council. Um, if you wanna, this is what we do, by the way, this is what we do in the iron council where a couple of questions came up around your vision and systems in place to drive identity. That's what we do. Join us, um, at orderofman.com slash iron council. And then we have the war room coming up on the 16th at 8:00 PM. That's orderofman.com slash war room.

• 51:02Speaker 00

  I think we've got like 50 guys signed up for that already and it's still almost three weeks away. So that one's gonna be a good one. I'm excited to have you teach that. And guys, if you like Kip a little more than me, understandable. I, I think the last call we did, we had a hundred and 25, so.

• 51:19Speaker 01

  Oh, are we gonna, are we competing here? Is that what we're doing?

• 51:22Speaker 00

  On one hand, I want, I want more than a hundred and 25 on one hand. On the other hand, I'm kinda like, I'd like around 120 ish, 122, somewhere right in there to maintain some dignity, but hopefully we get a lot of you guys there. I hope you're there.

• 51:35Speaker 01

  We just announced that it was me. So we'll see if the registries go from 50 to like 20, right? People like, ah, you know, I'll skip this month. Yeah.

• 51:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, we'll, we'll go like, like, like take back their RSVP. They're like, can you even do that? Like, I don't even know if you can do that, but they're like, never mind. All right, guys, well, great questions today. Appreciate you all. Sorry about the, um, the audio. Uh, I know it's a little, it's probably a little echoey on my end, but, uh, we may do with what we have. I think that's, I did a little video, uh, for the iron council members. And this is one thing that I, I talked about is just our, our ability to adapt as men. It's amazing to me how easily some men will just crumble at the slightest sign of adversity and challenge. It's like, just adapt, evolve, get better. That's what we gotta do. All right, guys, we will be back for our interview next week. Until then, go out there, take action and become the man you are meant to be.

• 52:29Speaker 02

  Thank you for listening to the Order of Man podcast. You ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be? We invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.