SATHIYA SAM | How Porn is Destroying Minds, Marriages, and Men

Pornography addiction isn't a willpower problem. It's a brain problem and, understanding the mechanics changes everything about how you fight it. Today, we go deep into the neuroscience: what edging actually does to your reward system, why desensitization and hypo-frontality reshape how your brain processes stress and pleasure, and why getting exactly what you want can leave you more depressed than before you started. We also unpack what "Rat Park" study reveals about addiction and isolation, and why the opposite of sobriety isn't willpower; it's connection. My guest, Sathiya Sam https://www.instagram.com/p/DcTZc30oJOX/, and I go beyond the behavior to the coping mechanism underneath it, what porn is really substituting for, what predicts who struggles with it, and why quitting cold turkey rarely works without addressing the root. You'll learn the real skills required to overcome it, why a satisfied heart rarely wanders, and how to build an identity that doesn't need to prove itself through control or escape. If you've ever wondered what's actually happening in your brain when you engage — or how to build something stronger in its place — this episode gives you the science and the path forward. Contact Sathiya Sam: www.thelastrelapsebook.com https://www.thelastrelapsebook.com https://www.thelastrelapsebook.com www.deepcleancoaching.com/innercircle https://www.deepcleancoaching.com/innercircle SHOW HIGHLIGHTS 00:00 - Introduction and AI's Impact on Pornography 03:20 - Emotional Connection and AI Sex Bots 05:39 - Dopamine, Variable Returns, and Edging 08:00 - Supernormal Stimuli and Accessibility 10:32 - Meeting Psychological Needs vs. Physical Drive 14:12 - The Rat Park Experiment & Connection vs. Addiction 18:16 - Meaninglessness as the Primary Driver of Vice 22:00 - Practical Skill Building Beyond Behavior Manipulation 24:52 - Connection, Control, and Validation 27:23 - Mainstream Pornography and Aggressive Content Trends 31:40 - Physical Transformation After Breaking Addiction 33:27 - Overcoming 48 Years of Addiction 38:23 - Identity Shifts and Rethinking 12-Step Frameworks 44:00 - Anchoring Identity Outside of Temporary Roles 47:00 - Who You Are and Who Told You 52:17 - Authentic Conviction vs. People Pleasing 56:30 - Public Apologies vs. Personal Alignment 01:00:02 - The Myth That Pornography Only Affects One Person 01:01:59 - The Four Neurological Effects of Pornography 01:03:33 - How Pornography Distorts Relational Intimacy 01:10:50 - Hypofrontality, Sensitization, and Stress Responses 01:18:45 - Replacing Addiction with Purpose 01:22:00 - Where to Find Sathiya Sam and The Last Relapse Battle Planners: Pick yours up today! https://store.orderofman.com/products/order-of-man-annual-battle-planner Order Ryan's new book, The Masculinity Manifesto https://www.amazon.com/Masculinity-Manifesto-Establishes-Influence-Credibility/dp/1684513316/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1665048672&sr=8-1. For more information on the Iron Council brotherhood https://orderofman.link/iron-council. Want maximum health, wealth, relationships, and abundance in your life? Sign up for our free course, 30 Days to Battle Ready https://orderofman.link/battle-ready-0

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Pornography addiction isn't just a willpower problem. It's a brain problem and understanding the mechanics changes everything about the way that you fight it. Today, we go deep into the neuroscience. We talk about what edging actually does to your reward system, why desensitization and hyperfrontality reshape how your brain processes stress and pleasure, and why getting exactly what you want can leave you more depressed than before you started. We also unpack what the quote unquote rap pack study reveals about addiction and isolation, and why the opposite of sobriety isn't necessarily willpower, it's connection.

• 0:43Speaker 00

  My guest today, Satya Sam, and I go beyond the behavior to the coping mechanisms underneath it, what porn is really substituting for, and what predicts who struggles with it and why quitting cold turkey really works without addressing the root. You are today going to learn the real skills required to overcome it, why a satisfied heart rarely wanders, and how to build an identity that doesn't need to prove itself through control or even escape. If you've ever wondered what's actually happening in your brain when you engage, or how to build something stronger in its place, this episode gives you the science and the path forward.

• 1:28Speaker 01

  You're a man of action. You live life to the fullest, embrace your fears, and boldly chart your own path. When life knocks you down, you get back up one more time, every time. You are not easily deterred, defeated, rugged, resilient, or strong. This is your life. This is who you are. This is who you will become at the end of the day, and after all is said and done, you can call yourself a man.

• 1:53Speaker 00

  And then, welcome to the Order of Man Podcast. I am your host, Ryan Mickler, and also the founder of the Order of Man Movement. Thank you for tuning in today. This is an episode that we need to continue to have because the conversation around pornography and what it's doing to us as men, and how it's ruining and undermining relationships and businesses and just men in general, is something worthy of having a discussion about. Now, before I get into the conversation today, and it's a very powerful one with a good friend of mine, just want to mention some supporters of the show. My good friends over at MontanaKnifeCompany.com. It is August, excuse me, I believe, yes, as of the release of this podcast, it is September

• 2:38Speaker 00

  1st. You know what that means? That means it's fall. And what that means is that it's hunting season. And what that means is that you need a good knife to break down the animal, whether it's a pig, or a deer, or a javelina, or a turkey, or an elk, or a moose, or whatever it is you're out there hunting. And I want you to be hunting all of the things. You need a good knife to break that meat down, to process it, and to bring it home and put it back in your fridge. I would look no further than MontanaKnifeCompany.com. Guys, use the code ORDEROFMAN when you pick up one of their skinning knives, or their deboning knives, they've got fillet knives.

• 3:21Speaker 00

  If you're a fisherman, why you would be a fisherman, I don't know, when you could be a hunter. So if you are, you can get one of their fishing fillet knives. But if you want to be a man, pick up one of their hunting knives, so you can break down real meat, not just fillet some fish. I know that's going to piss people off, and you know, so be it. Anyways, if you want a good knife for your hunting, or for your fishing, or for your kitchen, check out MontanaKnifeCompany.com, use the code ORDEROFMAN at checkout to save some money when you do. All right, guys. Again, Montana Knife Company, use the code ORDEROFMAN at checkout. Now, let me introduce you to my guest. His name is Satya Sam.

• 4:04Speaker 00

  He spent 15 years trapped, like probably many of us, in a pornography addiction that started when he was just 11 years old. And then he spent years cycling through internet filters and accountability partners that never really addressed the root of the problem. And after finally breaking free, he built a program called Deep Clean, which is a research-based, faith-even-informed system that has helped, at this point, thousands of men, from college students to medical doctors to professional athletes, regain control of their lives and rebuild the identity that porn had been quietly eroding.

• 4:48Speaker 00

  His work has been featured on 700 Club Canada, 100 Huntley Street, and Consider Before Consuming, among other platforms. Satya is the author of The Last Relapse: Realize Your Potential, Reclaim Intimacy, and Resolve the Root Issues of Pornography Addiction. And he also hosts his own show, The Man Within. He lives in Toronto, we'll forgive him for that, with his beautiful wife and two young children. And he continues to coach men around the world through Deep Clean's community and coaching programs. If you want to learn more about what he's doing, or connect with him directly, head to SatyaSam.com. Now, let's get to the conversation. Satya, what's up, man?

• 5:32Speaker 00

  So good to see you and glad to have you back on the podcast.

• 5:35Speaker 02

  It's always a privilege, man. Thanks for having me.

• 5:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, of course. It's interesting, when I started this movement 11 years ago, yeah, 2015, so 11 years ago, I never would have imagined how relevant the discussions that we were having would become. And as we move into a new era of technology and robotics, I imagine, from where you sit, talking with guys about overcoming pornography addictions, it's probably very much the same way for you.

• 6:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, the messages are getting a little bit different. You know, you find out what kind of, what guys are getting into. I had a guy, probably, this is about a month ago now, who was like, dude, I, he asks girls out, if they say no, he just goes and makes AI content with them, doing, you know, whatever he pleases kind of thing. So it has been totally changed by AI. I worked with a guy last year who had three affairs, and they were all of the emotional variety, they were all online, and each of them, he found out, after he got deep enough into the affair, that he was talking to a chatbot.

• 6:51Speaker 00

  Whoa, really?

• 6:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I actually had a, I had a former OnlyFans recruiter on my podcast, and you know, she's had a complete change of heart about OnlyFans and everything. She's left the industry and is doing a very different work now. But she was explaining that what really makes the most popular OnlyFans models effective is the team that runs the chat. Now, this was, this interview was a little while ago, before AI had really exploded. But she was talking about how you have to have a really effective team that understands how to keep people hooked, understands how to talk to them in the chat, and obviously sends them content and transacts and whatever. But AI now has completely replaced all of that, right? So they don't have to hire a team anymore, and AI is going to be better because it has the memory history and all that. And so you're talking about like, deep systems that are being developed here because of

• 7:38Speaker 02

  AI in this industry.

• 7:40Speaker 00

  Well, and it's also interesting, because based on what I've seen, you can, like this guy you were talking about, who if he gets turned down, he's like, all right, well, I'll just take her name, her image, her likeness, or whatever, her personality, maybe even potentially, and just build this into an AI chatbot, or whatever. And now I'm talking with Cindy, the woman who denied me, and she's showing me every aspect of her life, physically, mentally, emotionally, et cetera.

• 8:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, it's pretty scary. The, the big thing now, okay, when you and I would have been exposed to pornography as kids, it would have been, I can't even remember what movie it is, but you know, you watch those kind of trashy movies like American Pie and stuff? And the joke is like, the escalation in your bad sexual behavior is a blow up doll. That was kind of like the epitome of it, right? Today, so now because of AI, there's a bot, I think it's called Emily, and it's, it's not a sex bot, but it's, it's like, this is your, your like, live-in robotic girlfriend that knows everything about you, can have conversations with you, and obviously is still, you know, has like, whatever, sexual faculty, shall we say?

• 8:47Speaker 02

  And that's, but that's what they're offering, and that's why I used the OnlyFans example earlier to illustrate. A lot of people mistake this and just think like, oh, you know, guys are, guys are just super horny, can't control their sex drive, this is all just a sex thing. But the, the deeper, more effective companies, what they actually understand more than anything is they understand how to build an emotional connection with men, right, through the chat? The OnlyFans recruiter said, the, the most effective people in the chat were the ones that could engage men's curiosity. They knew that as long as you could engage their curiosity, they would come back and they would transact again and again and again. And so with the bot, it's the same idea. It's, the, the marketing is not, she'll do whatever you want sexually.

• 9:28Speaker 02

  The marketing is she will be whatever you need emotionally, psychologically, and physically. And that's, that's where they're really hooking men these days.

• 9:37Speaker 00

  There's a, there's an interesting principle I've heard about, and I'm going to butcher this, but the concept, I hope I can get across, but there's this concept that if I know I'm going to go to Vegas, let's say for example, and I live two hours from Vegas, I could go down to Vegas anytime I want, if I hit the slot machines, and I know that every 10th pull on the slots is going to produce a reward, that's not actually as powerful and compelling if there's a variable or a variant in whether or not I'm going to get the reward. It's, it's something about the dopamine that's released with the anticipation. And it sounds like what you're saying with Emily is very much the same. Like, if I know I'm going to go get laid, look, of course, men are going to be interested in that.

• 10:22Speaker 00

  But if I don't know, and there's a possibility, depending on how I play my cards, it seems like that tends to be more compelling for men. I don't know if it's because we like the chase, or, or the not knowing, or the risk of it. I'm not quite sure what it is, but it seems like the variable return is more compelling than the guaranteed one.

• 10:45Speaker 02

  That's a really good point. So that actually illustrates a very common misconception about dopamine. Because when people talk about porn addiction and dopamine, they talk about how, you know, we're just chasing these dopamine hits. But the actual, the actual draw, and that is true, like you do get a dopamine hit when you, you know, get your reward, whatever it is. But the, if you talk to any like neuroscientists, the neurobiological basis of all addiction is what's next. So for the gambling addict, like you said, it's going to be the next jackpot. For the cocaine addict, it's going to be the next line. For the, you know, the alcoholic, it's going to be the next drink. And it's the anticipation that, that our brains actually get hooked on. So in neuroscience, you have this thing called edging. And edging is sort of the in-between state.

• 11:30Speaker 02

  So, you know, sobriety is like, I'm not thinking about it. I don't have any temptation. And then, you know, on the complete other end of the spectrum is the, we'll call it a level 10 out of 10. I'm watching pornography. I'm doing the thing. Edging is everything that happens in between. It's thinking about it. It's doing a double take with that girl down the street. It's going on Instagram, looking for a model that, you know, technically is not pornography. Edging is, is you kind of just ramp up the brain. And you kind of just get it slowly and slowly more interested in, until eventually you've gone far enough that pornography is just the next, the next natural step. And that, it's that edging that we actually become incredibly addicted to. It's the thrill of the chase more than it is the thrill of the reward.

• 12:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's interesting because when you were talking about when we were kids, and you're younger than I am, but when I was a kid. I mean, my, my pornography was Sears catalogs, like literally Sears catalogs. You know, mom would have the Sears catalog come in and I'd turn to the lingerie section. And I'm not trying to be crude, but it's the reality for a bunch of guys. Like we would get off to the models in lingerie in the Sears catalog. Uh, and then it became, you know, the Pamela Anderson Playboy edition or whatever. But it wasn't as readily accessible or as graphic as it is today. And, and we certainly couldn't cater it to what we want, our personal desires and dreams and wishes, et cetera, et cetera.

• 13:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, that, that's the danger, right? Like I was talking to Connor Beaton, like a mutual friend of ours on, um, I forget who's, we've been on each other's podcasts. But we were talking about how one of the dangers of AI now is that you can get everything you want. And we all like, you, you understand how weak of a man you become if you actually, like, nobody actually gets everything they want in life. And if you can get everything you want, that actually starts to create major problems in you, you know, in your character. Um, in your, certainly in the, the way you're going to show up in a relationship and everything else. And I think we were at a huge advantage, not just because, um, there weren't, there wasn't the same accessibility that there is now. You know, porn's the three As, they call it affordable, accessible and anonymous.

• 13:44Speaker 02

  But I think additional, additional to that is just the fact that when you can get whatever you want, actually you become very depressed. You know, you think of like a Michael Phelps. He achieved everything he wanted in life, everything he could have dreamed of as a little boy, wanting to become an Olympic athlete. Attained everything he wanted and he was super depressed after. Because you, you, you very quickly realize, oh my goodness, there's nothing in my life that's actually going to compare to that high. And pornography is like that as well. In fact, neuroscientists call pornography a super normal stimulus. So the amount of stimulation it provides your brain and body is just unnatural. And that, when you're getting exactly what you want, there's nothing else in life that's really going to match up to that.

• 14:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, but you're, you're also making the contention that men are after more than just getting off, right? Now you're talking about, again, Emily, who's not just getting you off, but she's tapping into the psychological components of your desires. I, I think there is this misconception, misconception that men, um, just want to get laid. Uh, and, and, and look, don't get me wrong. That's, that's obviously something we're interested in.

• 14:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, we have a sex drive for sure.

• 14:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, but there's something deeper that I think is missing in society and missing in these men's lives. Do you feel like if, if young men in particular could figure out a way to receive that emotional and mental stimulant from a woman, that it would diminish the use of pornography?

• 15:18Speaker 02

  Like if men could find a way to get that psychological need met properly through a real woman, would they pursue pornography less?

• 15:25Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 15:27Speaker 02

  A 100%. Yeah. And, and sometimes-

• 15:30Speaker 00

  Do you think it's more powerful than the sexual drive that we have?

• 15:38Speaker 02

  I think it, I think it allows us to make better decisions with our sexual drive. So I'll, I'll, I'll frame it this way. And what I was going to say in response earlier is it's not even necessarily a woman getting your need met. So this is a very big, this is something that I push back on a lot. Cause a lot of guys are like, well, I just have sex, these sexual needs. And I'm like, well, let's be careful with that language. And I, cause I, and again, I'm not, I'm not diminishing the fact that we all have sex drives. And as men, generally we are quite driven by them. But I mean, water is a need. Oxygen is a need. You know, do you, do you need a, a sexual release and a sexual outlet to survive? I don't think so. Now, obviously we need to procreate, like it's, it's up there, you know, I, I get it.

• 16:23Speaker 02

  But I think sometimes what happens is, um, and this is especially with single guys, which was kind of the context of your question. I think with single guys, they, we become so obsessed of like, I have this need. Girls are rejecting me. I'm not getting sexual opportunities. I can't get into a serious relationship. You know, you fill in your blank. And so then it's like, well, I'm just going to go get my fill. I'm going to go get my need met. Watching pornography, OnlyFans, whatever it is. And I, I think in that instance, your pursuit of just the sexual release will severely diminish any kind of relational experience you can have. I'm kind of talking about it inverted here. If, if that guy was to go, and let's say, let's say really what the, what he's really after is he's looking for some validation. So he's feeling insecure because he's like, man, I'm, you know, I'm approaching these girls.

• 17:07Speaker 02

  I'm, I'm, feel like I'm getting opportunities, but nothing really materializes. So he's looking for validation. If he gets that need for validation met, however it might be, but let's just call it in a healthy way. You know, it's peer to peer or it's, or yeah, he does eventually get into a romantic relationship where he's feeling that validation. I would say generally he is going to be in a better position to make better decisions with his sex drive. Now he might still turn to pornography. So it's not that, it's not like a causational kind of thing. But I do think people who get their needs met on a psychological level effectively, they are in better control of the decisions they make with their sex drive and really pretty much every other area of their life.

• 17:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, I'm glad you said that last part because I was going to throw that in there. Because if you can control your sexual impulses, frankly, as a man, I think you can control anything about, about the way that you view the world. Only, you, you've, you've elicited OnlyFans a couple of times. This is, this is fascinating to me because, um, you could, i- if you join an OnlyFans account, like let's say there's, there's this woman and you're attracted to her and you want to pay her 50 or 80 or a hundred bucks a month. I don't even know what it is. But you pay her a hundred bucks a month, let's say, to get access to her exclusive content. What's interesting to me about this is you could go get that shit for free, man.

• 18:32Speaker 00

  Like you can go get free pornography. It's readily available. And yet you're choosing to spend, let's say a hundred dollars a month on OnlyFans. Why is that? And I think the reason is, you tell me if I'm wrong, but I think the reason is, is it goes beyond the sex drive and it goes to the connection. Oh, this woman, she, she knows me, like she gets me. It's exclusive for me. She's only giving it to me. Uh, it, it's, it's very similar to the guy who thinks the waitress or the stripper is flirting with him only exclusively, because it's not just about sex.

• 19:13Speaker 00

  It's about the connection. And I think that's a misconception that a lot of people have.

• 19:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, you nailed it. I, I don't know if I've talked about rat, have I talked about Rat Park with you before on the podcast?

• 19:23Speaker 00

  Did you say Rat Park? No, I don't know what that is.

• 19:27Speaker 02

  Okay. All right. So, um, Rat Park is a, is a experiment that was done a long time ago. It got popularized by a TED Talk probably 10 years ago. And so the premise is this, you have, um, you have a cage with two bottles in it. One bottle is water. The other bottle is water laced with cocaine. And so one at a time, they put a rat in and surprise, surprise, the rat, every single one of the rats gets addicted to the cocaine laced water. That's their test group. Okay. Control group is the same cage, same two bottles of water. And then they also put in toys and, you know, rat wheels and tunnels. And instead of putting one in at a time, they actually put in groups of rats. So they can play together and they can mate and whatever.

• 20:11Speaker 02

  And not a single one of them gets addicted to the cocaine laced water. Cause they're all having so much fun engaging with the other activities that are available to them. So it, in this TED Talk, the guy basically says that they, they actually started applying this to prisons. Cause people start to go, why do we, why do we have these people that are, they, they generally grow up without fathers in the home. They're super disconnected. They don't know how to have real relationships or real friendships. So they go and they do these terrible things. And then we basically put them in these isolated prison, prisons, or whatever you want to call it. Like we put them in these prisons. They have no connection. They have a little bit of connection with each other, but they don't really have much. Why don't we find a way to integrate them that's still safe to the general public? And what they found is that the, the results of these guys, especially when they integrated, because

• 20:56Speaker 02

  the, the likelihood of getting re-prisoned again is like, I forget, it's like 70 or 80%, right? Are back in prison within three years of being released. So they just found that that rate plummeted. And between Rat Park, between what they were witnessing in these prisons, they drew this big conclusion that the opposite of addiction is not sobriety, it's connection. And at a fundamental level, I think especially when we're talking about sex addiction, porn addiction, and even, even maybe not addiction, people don't always like that word. And sometimes they write themselves out from these conversations, Ryan, because they're like, oh, I'm not addicted. But if you're having, let's call it sexual misbehavior, fundamentally, I think what most guys are after is actually connection.

• 21:37Speaker 00

  I'm thinking about this because I am somebody who struggles with alcohol abuse. So I'm thinking about it through that lens. You're saying the opposite of sobriety is, is not abstinence, but connection.

• 21:53Speaker 02

  Opposite of addiction.

• 21:54Speaker 00

  Addiction, excuse me. Yeah, sorry, addiction. Yeah, I would, I would lean towards that because even for me, you know, I spent a week, last week in Maine with some good friends and people that I've known for a long time and I spent out, spent the week out there training jujitsu. And my cravings were significantly diminished. Like, I didn't even have time for it. I was engaged, I was having conversations, I was physically tired, right? Because of what we were doing. There was a lot of factors where my craving, which is something I have to, I have to battle with every day,

• 22:35Speaker 00

  was significantly diminished because I was with other men who I like, I trust, I care about. I want to get to know, I want to be involved in that community. I, I would agree with that, actually, from an anecdotal perspective.

• 22:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, we, we have a saying in our community, a satisfied heart rarely wanders. And, you know, you can, you can decide what satisfied means to you, but I think going back to the needs thing, and this is something I talked about in, in the book as well, The Last Relapse. It's so important as guys that we do understand what we need at a fundamental level and that we have healthy and effective ways to get it met. Because I think what you're saying there, again, when I think about you going on that trip, it's funny. A lot of guys, actually, when they travel, their cravings spike, right? Because you're out of routine, you're out of whatever. This is especially, I would say, work trips and that kind of stuff. But what's, what's really cool about this example is, I think you're with other guys. The other thing that you kind of touched on there is you guys were there for a specific purpose, right?

• 23:34Speaker 02

  You're doing, you're training jujitsu together, so, or you're competing. So I think what's really interesting about that is there's actually a lot of data. It's probably one of the biggest studies they ever did on porn usage. And they were trying to see, is there anything that really predicts whether or not somebody will watch pornography, return to pornography, depend on pornography, you know, etc. So they're looking at all the obvious factors like trauma, relationship dysfunction, any other mental illness like anxiety, depression and whatever. And they do what's called a multivariate analysis. I used to be a university researcher, so I always geek out on this stuff a little bit.

• 24:07Speaker 00

  So in a multivariate analysis- In a way, I don't, for sure, so.

• 24:11Speaker 02

  Okay, all right. All right, I won't keep it too nerdy, don't worry.

• 24:14Speaker 00

  No, no, no, dive fully in.

• 24:17Speaker 02

  So basically, in a multivariate analysis, they're looking at, I think in this case it was 15 to 20 variables. And they're just trying to see, is there a standout? Or are there some things that people think, okay, this, this is probably an indicator someone's gonna watch pornography, but maybe it's not? And there were a couple that were obvious, like trauma history, relationship discord, whatever. But the number one indicator that somebody would struggle with pornography was meaninglessness in life. So when people, and I think about what you do in the Iron Council, Ryan, like, I think this is why what you're doing is so important. Because you give, you give guys the community and the connection we talked about. And then I think you help guys find that, that the goals at the very least, but hopefully, you know, bigger case, a purpose.

• 24:56Speaker 02

  And that purpose is so powerful in, not just in the like, okay, I have something I'm moving towards, but I also have a reason to not engage in that thing. Because engaging in that thing is gonna actually take me away from, you know, my God-given purpose and the thing that I'm chasing after.

• 25:12Speaker 00

  I mean, again, anecdotally, I would definitely agree. When I'm driven or motivated through a business project or something that my kids have going on, like, I don't even have time to deal with that. I'm so focused on what's going on over here that my temptation becomes less relevant. But, but I do, but I also do get frustrated when I hear, again, I'm talking about it from the lens of, of alcohol addiction, not pornography. I do get frustrated when I hear people say, oh, well, you know, if, if you're, if you're drinking or engaging in pornography, or, you know, pick your vice of choice, where people are like, oh, it's because you're, you know, you're running from something. Oh, there's like meaninglessness in your life. And I'm like, I just wanna get drunk.

• 25:55Speaker 00

  And I imagine a lot of guys are like, I'm not running from anything, I just wanna get off. So there's a bit of a disconnect for me from this, like, deep-seated, oh, it must mean something psychologically happened to you when you were three years old that you can't remember, or versus, no, I'm just horny and I wanna get off.

• 26:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I honestly, I think it probably exists all across the spectrum. Like, when I think of the clients we've worked with over, over the years, we definitely had some guys who did have trauma history. And it was pretty obvious that, like, this started at a young age, this is how you coped. And the pattern is, it's attached, it's attached to the trauma you went through. I think you have some guys who actually just lack skills. And this is one of the biggest things that I tell people is, if you're gonna work with somebody to quit pornography addiction, you have to make sure that you're not just like doing talk therapy and working through stuff, whatever that means. They need to be helping you build skills. Because fundamentally, going back to what we were just talking about a few minutes ago with purpose, my goal, even at Deep Clean, is, I'm not trying to get you to quit pornography.

• 27:03Speaker 02

  Like, that's, that's such a, to me, that's such a weak goal. And there's lots of ways you can manipulate and modify behavior. My goal is for you to become the man that God made you to be. And so for that to happen, yes, you need to quit pornography, but you actually need to have skills that last beyond your usage of pornography. So this is actually, this is where the needs thing is a really great example. Like, if, if you have a hard time building meaningful connections with, let's say, other guys. Let's say other guys intimidate you, you had a bad, I don't know, you've had bad experiences making friends, you don't know how to make friends, you don't have, I know for me, dude, I got thrust into my, thrust into my early 30s. I mean, aging happens the same way for everyone, but all of a sudden, I'm like, man, I'm 33, I don't have any friends. I don't know what happened. Like, I have friends that I text and I'll see at birthday parties,

• 27:47Speaker 02

  but I don't have friends that I'm doing stuff with. And that was a total miss on my part. So I had to make a bunch of adjustments. I'm 36 now, in a much better shape as far as that goes. But a lot of guys find themselves in these places. And I would say, yeah, there's some skill development there on, we gotta, we gotta kind of teach you how to, how to understand, you know, how to build friendships, but also like what it looks like to show up in relationships in a meaningful way. Needs, getting needs met, you know, like, if, if you have a, I don't know, an unmet need for control, that might manifest as watching pornography, because pornography is the one area where you're like, hey, I can actually control the situation, I can control the outcome, right? Especially if you're talking about AI outcomes and that kind of thing. So, you know, I think there's, there's a lot of a middle ground there where, okay, not every single thing's attached to your childhood.

• 28:32Speaker 02

  But probably it's, maybe it's at least a layer deeper than, I just had an urge and I, I gotta kind of get one off. Usually, there's probably a little bit more to the equation if you trace it back far enough.

• 28:44Speaker 00

  No, that, that's interesting. Like, this need for control, that's, that's, I can see that, for sure. And I actually wrote down here in my notes as you were saying that, I said, what is the coping mechanism of pornography addiction? Like, what is it that you're, that you're addressing, right? Like, so, immediately what comes to mind for me is, hey, if I'm feeling lonely, I can have a companion of sorts, right? I can, even if it's just some blonde bimbo who I have no connection with, but I can, I can create, I can, I can, I can bridge that gap, right? I can say, okay, well, she's performing for me, right?

• 29:26Speaker 00

  Or with AI, she's talking, she, I'm using quotations, is talking directly to me. So therefore, I'm not lonely, she's paying attention, I'm, I'm somebody worth paying attention to. I'm trying to go through all of these things, but what is it that you think that pornography is addressing? Because if it wasn't, if it wasn't solving a problem, even if it's unhealthy, if it wasn't solving a problem, we just wouldn't engage in it. So it's solving something. What is it solving for?

• 30:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I would say, I, I think generally it's offering people one of three things, usually a combination. Connection, which we've talked about. Control is a big one. And, and control kind of expounds even into like stressful relief, overwhelmed. That's a really big one. Like, a lot of guys are like, oh, I'm just bored, or I'm overwhelmed. And so what? You know, like, there's also people who are bored and overwhelmed that don't watch pornography. So what is pornography offering?

• 30:32Speaker 00

  Journal or whatever else.

• 30:34Speaker 02

  Sure, yeah, yeah. So generally, like, if, if, you know, you feel overwhelmed, control is the thing that gives you an opportunity. I worked with a guy, he's a, he's a starter, he's a starter in the NFL. And I was working with him last year, and he said the most common time he watches pornography is right before the game. So they do all their stuff in the morning, and then, you know, the game starts in the afternoon or in the evening. And he's always got like 45 minutes in the hotel where he doesn't really know what to do. He feels super stressed about his performance, so like a little bit overwhelmed. And then he, but he also is just like stuck in a hotel room, you know, like bored, feeling alone, you know, whatever it might be. So it's, it's a really good example of kind of like, it's actually so much overwhelm

• 31:18Speaker 02

  that pornography for him, it's not offering connection in that moment. I don't think he's necessarily looking for connection, even though that maybe could be helpful. But what he's actually looking for is something to, to like dissipate the anxiety, something that like stills everything down. So we just worked on like, again, this is where pornography can be deeply psychological. It can also be very practical. For him, it was just like, hey, let's, maybe let's not get you in your hotel room watching TV, you know, in that 45-minute window. Let's figure out what, what else that might look like, and we just altered the protocol. So I think it just depends a little bit, but control is a big one, is basically what I'm saying. And if you really wanna, wanna test out what, what you're getting out of pornography, pay attention to your fantasies.

• 32:00Speaker 02

  Because I'll tell you, for me, when I really struggle with, with pornography, I, like, some of the stuff we were talking about was hard for me to pinpoint. Once I paid attention to what I fantasized about, dude, I was always about control. It was always about me being in a position of control, controlling the situation, controlling the outcome. That gave me a lot of clues. And then I would say the third thing that guys often will go to for pornography is validation. That's another really big one. So connection, control, validation. Yeah, those three are huge.

• 32:29Speaker 00

  So I wrote a couple things down. Yeah, the fantasies, I imagine, and I don't know the statistics, you probably do as well. I imagine more and more the fantasies revolve around BDSM.

• 32:44Speaker 00

  Like, again, I don't know.

• 32:45Speaker 02

  How did you guess that?

• 32:46Speaker 00

  Well.

• 32:46Speaker 02

  People never guessed that.

• 32:47Speaker 00

  Well, you talked about control, right? So if I can take this female and I can absolutely control and dominate her, that makes me feel powerful. So I imagine the trend is moving more and more to BDSM.

• 33:03Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 33:05Speaker 00

  Consensual non-consent is a, is a, is a genre. Even rape is a genre. I imagine it's moving more and more towards that.

• 33:15Speaker 02

  They just dress it up differently, but yes. I had a researcher on my podcast, her name's Joe Robertson. And her and her team, I guess they were, they were doing this deep dive into violence and kind of the, like to see if there's a correlation here. And what they found is that 80% of mainstream pornography, and this is an old number, it's probably higher. 80% of pornography depicted scenes of violence and/or aggression towards the woman.

• 33:42Speaker 00

  80%?

• 33:42Speaker 02

  This is mainstream, right? So 80%, yeah. So this is just kind of the norm now. And maybe like, this is a really harrowing story. Did you ever hear Billie Eilish's interview with Howard Stern, this is probably like five years ago?

• 33:54Speaker 00

  I may have caught glimpses, I'm not sure I remember though.

• 33:56Speaker 02

  It, it actually went viral and I think they took it down, but she basically talked about how her early sexual experiences as a young woman. I think she was actually still a girl at the time, to be honest, were all BDSM. And she thought that was normal because of the pornography she watched. And, and again, think of like a young girl who's getting into pornography, she, no one's looking for this like super niche stuff when you start out. Your, your brain might get there eventually, but for her, that was just like, she watched what was considered normal, standard pornography. And it was all violent, aggressive BDSM. And she, she said like, I didn't like it. I thought it was kind of strange, but I also kind of just thought this is normal.

• 34:40Speaker 02

  And it wasn't until she became more of an adult, got into more of her formative years, that she realized, actually, this is totally messed up. And I, I think it just illustrates how, again, I can't believe you guessed that, most people don't.

• 34:51Speaker 00

  What do they guess?

• 34:51Speaker 02

  But that is, that is. I don't know if people have guesses to be hon, like either you're watching and you kind of know. But I don't think people think right away, oh, it's getting really violent and really aggressive. But mostly, again, you got that, you got that guess because we talked about control, right? I think that's what connected the dots for you, you said. And I think a lot of people don't realize that. Again, I think a lot of people reduce this conversation to guys are horny, they're just gonna do what they do. Everybody watches porn. I think it's, again, it's a layer deeper that you start to get better answers and better explanations for what's really going on.

• 35:22Speaker 00

  Men, real quick, before I get back to the conversation with Sathiya, on September 16th, pull out your calendars real quick if you can. On September 16th at 8:00 PM Eastern, I and my good friend and co-host, Kip Sorenson, are going to be hosting a live War Room session. This is our second War Room session on the three roles every man needs to understand and operate in. It's the enforcer, it's the rescuer, and it's the anchor.

• 35:52Speaker 00

  Most men default into one of these without ever really being conscious or choosing it. And that default is quietly running your marriage and your fatherhood and your leadership, whether or not you're aware of it. And it's not always good. Okay, the enforcer and the rescuer are not the ways that you need to show up. The anchor is, and we'll talk about that. But this session is about identifying which of those that you're leaning on, where it's failing you, and how to move between all three with intention instead of just your default instinct. This is not theory, it's, it's gonna be live, it's gonna be direct, and it's built for men who are done operating on cruise control or autopilot.

• 36:36Speaker 00

  If you head to orderofman.com/warroom, all one word, orderofman.com/warroom, right now, you can get your spot reserved. I think we've got about 60 men signed up for the War Room on September 16th at 8:00 PM Eastern. Again, this is free and we're gonna share with you the frameworks of the enforcer, the rescuer, and the anchor, and why you want to move from the enforcer and the rescuer into the anchor. So show up, September 16th, 8:00 PM Eastern, bring your notepad, and let's get to work. I'll see you there. Until then, let's get back to it with Sethia.

• 37:16Speaker 00

  Well, I mean, incentives are what drive, well, I, I should say this, incentives and consequences are what drive human behavior. And I've mocked it a little bit, I've said, if you understand that concept and you embrace that into your life, then you are basically a PhD in human psychology. Like, if that's all you knew about humans, really, I mean, it, look, we can use it in any scenario. Why did you agree to be on this podcast? Because you think that your message is going to be valuable to my audience, and therefore, some of my audience will come over and connect with you. And I'm trying to, like, there's no maliciousness in that, but that's what's driving you to be on this podcast, let's be honest about it. And what's driving you to invite?

• 37:58Speaker 02

  Well, I also didn't want you to beat me up, there's a, there's a consequence to it, right?

• 38:00Speaker 00

  Fair, fair. And I would have, I definitely would have, I would have tracked you down and definitely would have physically assaulted you if you didn't join me. But, but again, so what is my incentive? Well, I think that enough of my guys are dealing with pornography use and addiction and frustration, that it's worth having you on because it will add value to these guys' lives and they'll think better about the community. I don't understand why we get so confused about incentives and consequences. And pornography is very much the same way. Like, you would not engage in something, moral or immoral, if you didn't get some sort of perceived benefit or value from.

• 38:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, 100%. But I, and again, I think that's why people stay stuck. I think that's also very powerful for people building a new life without pornography, right? If you understand the right incentives, which is not just, it's, it's not just like, oh, I want to be, you know, I want to be married one day if you're a single guy or whatever. But if you have purpose, if you have things that are really motivating you, pulling you in the right direction, I'll tell you, like, the number of guys that have gone through our program, quit pornography and then start a business, get more involved in church, start showing up better at home. We get tons of messages from wives that are like, I don't know what you're doing with my husband, but he's more present, he's more connected, keep doing it. Like, these are very common stories. I know that one thing you emphasize that I really respect in the Iron Council, and I even saw this when we did the, we did the Forge.

• 39:26Speaker 02

  I wasn't at the Forge this year, but the year prior. You guys obviously emphasize taking care of the body. So this is a fascinating thing that I, I don't, I never really set out to do this, but this has just happened. But the number of people in Deep Clean that have quit pornography and then gone on to run a marathon, like, we should start tallying this. It's, it's a shocking amount, yeah. And most guys say, they say two things. So one is they say, as I quit pornography and I started to like view women differently, I also started to view my own body differently, like I had a higher value for it and I wanted to take care of it. And I, I mentioned the marathon one because that, those are specific examples that I was surprised by. But if it's not marathons, it's, I started going to the gym, I started lifting weights, I started eating better, you know, whatever it is.

• 40:11Speaker 02

  But the other thing that's really cool is as they go through the process of quitting pornography, especially when it's something like,

• 40:18Speaker 02

  you know, one of the stronger stories we had out of our community last year was a guy, this is actually a wild story. He addicted to porn for 48 years. This would be a good example where, where Trama was part of this.

• 40:29Speaker 00

  48, is that what you said?

• 40:29Speaker 02

  Forty, forty-eight.

• 40:31Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 40:31Speaker 02

  Forty-eight, yeah, almost 50 years. So he's in like, you know, his early 60s, was sexually abused as, as a little boy. And then there's this concept in psychology that if, if you have sexual abuse, often you will in your adult years reenact the abuse, if you don't heal from it or cope with it or process it. So what that means is.

• 40:50Speaker 00

  Reenact as in portray, put, put that on somebody else or subject yourself to that?

• 40:56Speaker 02

  Both, both. So it depends on the person. In his case, he was, so he's a married man, lives in the Midwest, married, two kids, and is doing anonymous hookups with other guys through Craigslist back in the day, because this lasted for a long time, and then, you know, over the last 20 years, digital means. So he's, he's about to engage like in another hookup. The guy identifies him and blackmails him for 10K. Like, I'm gonna tell everybody, I, I like, this is your wife's name, this is where you live, I'm gonna let them all know if you don't wire me 10 grand.

• 41:36Speaker 02

  So, so this guy amazingly decides, I'm actually, I'm gonna come clean. Like, I always knew this moment was gonna happen, I'm gonna come clean. Good example of carrots and sticks, right? Consequences and incentives, right?

• 41:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:50Speaker 02

  So now he's got a huge consequence and he's got a good incentive to go and tell the truth. Tells the truth, his wife accepts it like very graciously, they start doing their work. He has an amazing outcome and has been clean of porn for a year now. Is sharing his story in prisons actually, and celebrate recovery groups and that kind of stuff. He and his wife renewed their vows, like, it's a really, really powerful story to come out of the community. But you're talking about 50-plus years, oh, sorry, not 50-plus years, almost 50 years.

• 42:21Speaker 00

  Almost 50 years.

• 42:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, of an addiction that gets turned around. And for him, like, he is, he's just viewing the world through a different lens. So, to, to complete my thought here, guys are, guys take better care of themselves because they get confidence. They get their confidence back. This thing weighed on him for 48 years, he finally conquered it. And now he feels like, rightfully so, that if he could figure out this thing that had grips on his life for 48 years, there's probably a lot of things he can do in his life that are gonna be a lot easier than that. And so that's why a lot of these guys go on to run, you know, marathons. There's one guy who actually, I think he ran an ultra marathon or he was training for it.

• 43:02Speaker 02

  And, and that's, that's a really cool part of what we do here is like, we get, we get to see guys like step into this, this God-given purpose at a much deeper level.

• 43:10Speaker 00

  Yeah. Is that just re-channeling energy? You know, I, I imagine, so for example, when it comes to drinking, it's like, I could sit here tonight, I've got a couple calls this evening, but outside of that, my kids aren't here, I'm alone. And so it's like, okay, well, I know like that this is something I'm gonna be tempted by, and so I just occupy myself, right? I might go to the gym, there's some hot springs here, I might just go to the hot springs and just get out of the house because that keeps me from the temptation. I guess, I guess a couple of things. Is it just filling the gap? And then my second question is, is that healthy? Or is it just ma- I guess, I guess, I'm thinking out loud. I guess all behavior,

• 43:55Speaker 00

  positive behavior is what we would call a coping mechanism. Are there, are there bad coping mechanisms outside of pornography or alcohol abuse, drug abuse, gambling, et cetera?

• 44:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I, I, I think this is where it actually boils down to. It's not always about the behavior. It's also about your relationship to the behavior. So like, let's say you and I are addicted to pornography and we're both like, you know what? Instead of watching pornography, every time we have a craving or a temptation, we're gonna go to the gym. Maybe not every time, but we're gonna go to the gym like four or five times a week just to, like you said, get out of the house. We're gonna train our bodies. We're gonna channel that energy. But let's say you are able to, like, you go and you work out for forty-five minutes. You're like, man, I feel great. I'm gonna go to the sauna for a little bit. I'm gonna do cold plunge. I'm gonna go home. But I, I am like, I can't miss a workout. I gotta nail every rep. If I, if I only have thirty minutes,

• 44:49Speaker 02

  it's like, it doesn't count as a workout. And I have this totally toxic relationship. That's when it's like, oh, actually, that's a, that's not just like a healthy outlet for you. That's now become a coping mechanism. So that's where I would make the distinction, the language. I don't think every behavior is a coping mechanism per se. I think there's such a thing as just, you know, I, I have some, I have energy, I have drive, I have emotion, I have a non-met need, I have whatever it is. And I think there's healthy ways to get those things addressed. And I think there's also unhealthy ways. And sometimes what makes it unhealthy is not the behavior itself, it's your relationship to the behavior.

• 45:23Speaker 00

  It's probably a lot like identity. You know, when people are trying to form new habits or break old ones, the sooner you can relate with the identity of changed behavior, the more likely it is that that behavior will change and or last, right? So if I, a silly small example, it's not even true, by the way, but a silly small example that I embraced, and I recognize it as not being universally true. Years and years ago, I was drinking a ton of Monster Energy Drinks, a ton. I got this eye twitch and it kinda scared me. It freaked me out. And I got this eye twitch for days that would not go away. And I'm like, I think it's the energy drinks. And so I stopped drinking the energy drinks and a couple of days later, the eye twitch went away and that's what it was.

• 46:08Speaker 00

  It was the caffeine or whatever, the chemicals in, in the Monster. And

• 46:16Speaker 00

  in order to stop drinking energy drinks, I told myself, again, this is not universally true, but I told myself, I said, "Successful men do not drink Monster Energy Drinks." That is not universally true. I know successful men who drink a ton of Monster.

• 46:35Speaker 02

  The, the video game world would definitely disagree with that, yeah.

• 46:38Speaker 00

  Say it again.

• 46:39Speaker 02

  I said, "The video game world would definitely disagree. Those guys are hopped up on all kinds, yeah."

• 46:43Speaker 00

  Video games, X-Games, all that, all that kinda stuff.

• 46:45Speaker 02

  Sure, sure.

• 46:46Speaker 00

  It's not universally true, but I embraced it as so. And what actually helped me stop drinking energy drinks was the identity that I had wrapped out around it. Like, successful people don't drink energy drinks. And so I stopped drinking energy drinks because my desire to be successful outweighed my desire to drink a Monster.

• 47:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. And if there's anything uncomfortable that you were, like, that you would say, like, but let's say it's like, when I say uncomfortable, I'm even talking about the stress or overwhelm. And maybe you're just like, man, I'll just pop an energy drink. I feel better, get my energy back. You probably found in, in having that drive for, you know, being a successful person with that new identity, yeah, you probably just found better ways to channel some of those, some of those challenges or some of the stress or the overwhelm or whatever else might be there. And, um, another thing that's really interesting with the energy drink example is it also kinda shows you that you can, you can actually change things relatively quickly. And I think people sometimes get caught up on this, especially with porn addiction, because they think, this is like probably the most common thing I get is like, you don't know what I've done.

• 47:50Speaker 02

  And I'm like, well, try me, you know, I've worked with over fifteen hundred guys. I've been helping guys quit pornography for eight years. I, I probably have heard everything at this point. But I think a lot of guys think that because of, I'm thinking of the story I just shared, this guy struggled for forty-eight years. And it has he thinking, this is gonna be years. It's gonna be years to reverse all this. But I think the reason that things can actually change quite quickly is, well, it's twofold. One is it's the identity shift that you just talked about. And this is why I'm not a huge fan of some of the twelve-step,

• 48:19Speaker 02

  principles. Like, at, at, at a whole, I'm grateful for twelve-step, but one thing that twelve-step perpetuates is once an addict, always an addict. I don't know if you ever, again, I don't know if you did twelve-step or kinda what you've gone through, so I'm,

• 48:30Speaker 00

  I'll share a story with you shortly, but yes, I very much am in alignment with you on this.

• 48:35Speaker 02

  Okay, okay, got it. Yeah. So that, that would be an example of a tenant of twelve-step that I'm like, hey, actually, I just can't, I can't buy into that because I do believe at a fundamental level you can change. And even at a, at a faith level, like, I, I really believe that you can change and be a completely new person. That's the whole premise of, of Christianity in my belief system. So I think the, the whole identity shifting piece is super, super critical. And I think the, the thing that, you know, accentuates it or allows an identity shift to take place and to actually take root is having a community. Cause when you say like, you know, I'm a person who does X, Y, Z, that's one thing. But when you say we, like, we do this collectively, that's really, really powerful. I was just talking to, um, he's, he's, to the, to this day, one of my best friends,

• 49:18Speaker 02

  but he really helped me out when I started Deep Clean in twenty eighteen. And I was telling him the story, cause he was, he pulled up like a picture from back in the day or something and it just triggered a bunch of memories from that season of my life. And, um, I was like, uh, I was a want entrepreneur. Like, I was, I did not actually know anything about business. I had this idea to help guys, but he was very established. And, um, we hung out and we actually watched an interview between Grant Cardone and Ed Mylett. And I forget the name of the guy that interviewed him, but he used to have a big channel back in the day. He might still be around. Anyways, really, really interesting interview. I'm, I'm pretty green to all this. So he's like, he really understands the conversation. I'm like, kinda getting it. And, um, we, uh, we go out for, for some pizza or something afterwards.

• 50:03Speaker 02

  And I was asking what he thought about Dave Ramsey, cause I could just tell like he, he wasn't a budget guy and whatever. And I was deep into some Dave Ramsey stuff at the time. And he was like, "Oh, you have to be careful because Dave, Dave Ramsey isn't necessarily talking to people like us." And I was like, "What do you mean, people like us?" He's like, "Well, we're entrepreneurs." And he, he just kind of like, he grouped me in, like, I was, I was like him, even though in my world, like, he was in a completely different level than I was. But he's like, "Oh, like, we don't, you know, like, he, he's not really talking to business owners generally. Like, he's not talking to people like us." Dude, that sense of belonging, that did something for my identity. As, as like a, an entrepreneur. And I stopped saying that. Like, I stopped saying like, I'm trying to get into business or whatever. And I, I just started saying, "Yeah, I'm an entrepreneur."

• 50:44Speaker 02

  Like, my friend Jake just kind of imparted that into me. And so I think that's where that brotherhood and that communal element is a really powerful accelerator for guys who need that, which every single person struggling with pornography needs that identity shift. Yeah, those, those two things go hand in hand very, very effectively.

• 51:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, that's powerful. I, I've been trying to like, play around with this idea of identity lately and I, I think what a lot of guys wrestle with is that much of the way they've identified themselves can be stripped away at any given point, you know? So for example, if, heaven forbid, you know, we're, you and I are both fathers. Well, if one of my children dies, am I still a father? Potentially goes away. If, if, uh, I'm in the military, we see this, right? The, the insane levels of, of suicide and suicidal ideation in the military is, is astronomical. Uh, especially when they are separated from service, whether they retire out, medically disqualify, et cetera, et cetera. It's like,

• 51:43Speaker 00

  they're no longer a soldier or a marine or fill in the blank. And, and I've wrestled with this. I'm like, okay, so if that's not who we are, if we're not a soldier or we're not a business owner, like you said, then who are we? And there's only one thing that I've come to the conclusion of. I'd like your take on this. There's only one thing that I am that is universally true, and that's I'm a son of God.

• 52:08Speaker 00

  All the rest is subject to interpretation. So I even think about fathering, like, I'm careful to say, "I'm a dad." I am not a dad. I father my children.

• 52:21Speaker 00

  I don't, I don't, I am not a business owner. I run a business. Like, I'm, I'm very hesitant to identify myself as this title instead of what I'm actually doing. So I'm fathering my children. I'm running this organization. I think that's a, I don't want to say safer way to do it. I think it's a more appropriate way to look at what you do. Because then if whatever that external source or that external title is, goes away, I'm not defined by that because I can father, or at least be fatherly to other children. If this business goes away and crumbles and falls apart for whatever reason,

• 53:05Speaker 00

  whether it's my own doing or external circumstances, I can still run other businesses. And I'm not so bogged down or tied to this title that is at the mercy of external circumstances.

• 53:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, dude, I think that's really powerful. And I'll tell you why. Because once you, once you complete that I am statement, inherently attached to that statement is your value as a man. So if, if I am a business owner and that's really my core identity that I embrace, then my value is determined by how well my business performs. Which means when the P and L looks great, I feel like a million bucks. I got all the confidence in the world. And when it doesn't, I'm a shell of a man, you know, or I'm, I'm, or I'm like working overtime to try to like get everything back in order. And there's some merit to that, but when it, when you're doing it to prove yourself or to get your value, it becomes a problem. And I actually talked about this in the book, because basically the deep clean system is three pillars.

• 54:04Speaker 02

  It's, um, it's build emotional awareness or learn how to regulate, heal your heart and shift your identity. So this identity piece ties perfectly into, um, the third pillar of the deep clean system. And one of the things I talk about in the book is how you have to answer two fundamental questions about your identity. Who are you? And just as importantly is who told you?

• 54:27Speaker 02

  Who are you and who told you? So, um, so and the quintessential example, you know, I was a pastor. A lot of what we do is faith-based. So I'll use a Bible example. I hope your audience doesn't mind. When Jesus gets baptized, uh, the story, it's documented in Luke three, Jesus gets baptized. The heavens rend and there's a voice from heaven that says, this, you are my beloved son in whom I'm well pleased. This is my beloved son in whom I'm well pleased. So Jesus kind of gets this affirmation from God the Father, like this is my son and I'm happy with who he is. I'm proud of him. That would kind of be like our equivalent language today. So if you read the next chapter, Jesus goes into the wilderness. He fasts for 40 days. And after 40 days, he gets tempted by the enemy. And so it says that the enemy tempts him three times.

• 55:09Speaker 02

  But the first temptation that the, that the devil uses is he says, if you are the son of God, command these stones to become bread. So basically the temptation is like, use your power, you're hungry, right? You fasted for 40 days, feed yourself, you know, you're God, you can convert stones into bread, go and make it happen. And Jesus' reply is, man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. And what's powerful about that is I, my personal conviction is that the temptation was not to perform some miracle and turn stones into bread and make a meal. I think the actual temptation was to, for Jesus to believe that he had to prove himself. Because the beginning of that statement was, if you are the son of God,

• 55:50Speaker 02

  when previously, 40 days ago, the Father had already told him, you are my beloved son and in you I'm well pleased. And the enemy's saying, well, okay, then prove it. And Jesus is basically saying, it's already been proven because it came from the ultimate authority that we have access to in this universe. And so I think what's powerful about what you said and kind of like chiseling away at the identity and trying to figure out what actually stands the test of time, you know, what can, what actually endures and, and lasts beyond any set of circumstances or any season of life. Dude, I, I think you nailed it. It's that at the end of the day, we are children of God. And the reason that can never change is because number one, no external circumstance changes it. But number two, we know that God doesn't change his mind.

• 56:34Speaker 02

  And I think if you can find your identity there, again, what's powerful about the value equation is now your value as a person also has no waiver. Now, it doesn't mean that some days you might not, you might feel better about yourselves than others. That's, that's fine. That's part of the human experience. But it gives you something to fall back on that is actually already established, already determined. You don't need to go and get a better P and L to feel better about yourself. You need to go and, you know, lift more weights or put on more muscle to feel like a real man. You can actually find your identity in something that's already established, period. And I think that's really, really powerful.

• 57:07Speaker 00

  Do you think that, so I, I would agree with the overwhelming sentiment of that, right? We don't need to prove ourselves to anybody else. We've already been proven by the ultimate. Do you think that there is?

• 57:24Speaker 00

  I'm asking rhetorically because I believe there is, but I'm curious about your perspective. But isn't there value in proving it to yourself that you are this thing? Whether it's a son of God, or you're strong, or you're devoted, or you're loyal, or you're ambitious, or you're dedicated, or fill in the blank with your virtue of choice?

• 57:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I think it's necessary. Um, I, I don't, yeah, I don't want people to get the wrong message and think this is meant to produce some kind of apathy because, hey, you're proven and you're good to go and you can kind of just kick your feet up. I think it's quite the opposite. We, we have a proverb for this pillar, which is, I would rather be a hundred percent my true self and rejected than 80% of my true self and accepted. And I think when people, when, when guys really-

• 58:06Speaker 00

  I gotta hold, I guess, I gotta stop you on this one real quick.

• 58:11Speaker 00

  I take a little bit of issue with, not what you're saying.

• 58:15Speaker 02

  No, go for it.

• 58:15Speaker 00

  Not, not how you're saying it, but what, the words you're using. So this, this concept in modern culture of true self, you know, we hear this. I'm gonna be authentic. I'm gonna be genuinely myself. And what I, what I hear and what I see is an excuse for poor behavior typically. I'm just being authentic. You know, guys, guys will say, like, for example, I might jump on your social media feed and say, you know, Sophia, you're an idiot because X, Y, and Z, and you're, you're a fool and you're dumb, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, hey, I'm just being honest. I'm just being true to myself.

• 58:55Speaker 00

  And so I think when people embrace this idea of like, I'm gonna be authentically me, I'm gonna be transparent. I think what they're doing is they're giving them an excuse to be jerks, to be less than they're capable of, to excuse away poor performance because they're being authentic.

• 59:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I, I would say what I'm actually talking about is what you just did. So I think one of the things that we observe in a lot of our clientele is a lot of them have a bit of a people pleaser in them that they don't know how to control. And so what you just did, which is you interrupted me, you said, actually, I kind of see things differently. I want to challenge that a little bit. To me, that would be like the textbook definition of being a hundred percent your true self. It's, it's just saying, hey, I actually like, I have a say in the matter as well. And I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna diminish that, what I believe, what I stand for in the name of being, uh, accepted or approved of. And I think that that's a skill, that would be an example of a skill that actually needs to be developed in a lot of guys.

• 1:00:02Speaker 02

  Now, not, not all guys have that, that issue. But when I talk about being a hundred percent your true self, um, and rejected, basically what, the, the real emphasis there is, I will be true to myself, even if it means that something I care, that I'll lose something I care about. Someone's opinion, someone's approval, whatever else it might be. You know, you and I are in the, the content space where that's something you have to get over at some point if you're gonna grow an audience, right? Like the, the amount of hate that you must get, like my goodness. And you would be shocked, you'd be shocked at how much, how much hate I get as well, like feminists come after me and like all kinds of groups. It's really, really weird. Um, that's just part of it, you know, it's just part of it. And for me, when I started, dude, I was going back through some old content, like I, I would cower.

• 1:00:47Speaker 02

  Like I would cower because I would, I would share my opinion about something. And then people would be like, I can't believe you think this, this is disgusting, you know, whatever, whatever. And then I would, I would sometimes even issue like apology pieces, like I'm sorry, that was a little bit insensitive. And after a while I realized, wait a minute, like actually, no, it wasn't like, I, I wasn't being like, I think the examples you're using are, are probably a little bit more extreme where someone is a jerk or they are immature. You know, guys are gonna do that. I wasn't doing that. I was actually, I was actually very nicely saying what I believe. And I've had to learn, I'm not gonna apologize for that, you know, because it's something that I fundamentally have a conviction about that I believe to be true and I'm gonna, I'm gonna stand by it. So that's kind of more what I mean by the statement.

• 1:01:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, that makes sense. I'm glad we talked about, like, even with apologies. I've, I've got a friend, a mutual friend of ours who made a public apology about something he did not need to publicly apologize about. I, I just made a rule. I, I apologize privately and one-to-one. I do not make group apologies because if, if I post something on social, even if I was insensitive, and, and I have a tendency of doing that. I get a little hot-headed at times and I'm a pretty black and white thinker. And so, yeah, I tend to like just throw stuff out there. It's not always real coherent or respectful. I don't make public apologies.

• 1:02:10Speaker 00

  Like, i- if you decided to be offended about that, even if I was in the wrong, that's for you to decide, not for me. But if I, if I slighted you personally in some way, I will make a personal apology with a private phone call and tell you, hey, I'm sorry.

• 1:02:28Speaker 02

  It depends on the nature of it though, right? Because I would, because I, actually like one thing that really, um, gained you some respect in my books was when you went through your divorce and you did a post about it and you talked about, I don't know if it was an apology, so maybe, maybe it's, it's a slightly different context. But to me, it came across as an apology, like, hey, there's some things in my life that haven't been aligned with the message I've been portraying. I'm gonna be better. I'm sorry this happened. Again, I don't know, I'm putting words in your mouth now. But to me, I'm like, actually, that was, I think that's, that would be another great example of like, actually, you're just, I think you're being honest about, about who you are and where you were at. Maybe after a season where, where you weren't, or there were things going on that people didn't know about. I think that's pretty healthy. But in that case, I think you, you owed it to your audience because that would be like if I was secretly watching pornography for the last couple of years.

• 1:03:14Speaker 02

  I would, I would issue an apology to my audience, right?

• 1:03:19Speaker 00

  No, I don't think I would. And I don't, and, and I don't think I did. I explained and that was a move to get me back in integrity, but I didn't. What I was saying was, okay, so let, let's take your scenario, for example. So let's hypothetically say you've been watching pornography for the past five years. Was your message wrong?

• 1:03:41Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:03:42Speaker 00

  So were people served by your message or hindered by it?

• 1:03:46Speaker 02

  Hundred percent.

• 1:03:47Speaker 00

  Hundred percent served, right?

• 1:03:48Speaker 02

  Hundred percent, yeah.

• 1:03:49Speaker 00

  So what apology do you owe to them?

• 1:03:52Speaker 02

  I guess for me, I would, my, my whole thing is follow me. Like I was addicted to porn for 15 years as a pastor, university researcher. I've been clean in the last 10 years. Here's, here's what's worked for me, follow it.

• 1:04:05Speaker 00

  So I don't think that, even though I don't think that about you though, Sophia. If I can be really blunt, I don't think your message is follow me. I think your message is follow God. I, I believe that about you. I believe, I believe, I don't know your, your, your spiritual beliefs other than what you've shared. But your message to me doesn't come across as follow me. It's follow the truth and the truth is this, based on your spiritual beliefs.

• 1:04:31Speaker 02

  Oh, you just made my marketing team super happy. They're gonna love that because that is, that is the message we're trying to get across. I think, I think I, I, for me, I definitely feel a responsibility of, and it, I guess it, it could be semantics here, Ryan. But I would say I would need to issue something because I would be living out of integrity. If that makes sense.

• 1:04:50Speaker 00

  Definitely agree.

• 1:04:51Speaker 02

  So maybe, yeah, is it an apology? I, yeah, I guess that's where, I think that's where maybe, maybe we're using different language. But to me, I'm like, I would have to communicate something. Cause for me to say, you guys shouldn't watch pornography. It's terrible for you. It's been in my life, like there's a misalignment there that needs to get addressed. I guess what you're saying specifically though, is you don't need to apologize. I wouldn't need to apologize for the content that I had created in the past. Is that what you mean?

• 1:05:15Speaker 00

  Well, I mean, I didn't, I didn't hurt anybody in some measurable way. There, there, there was no, when, when I told people about what I was dealing with, there was no, look, they may have interpreted that as a sense of betrayal. Absolutely. But I did not hurt anybody by my own behavior. I, well, that's not true. I hurt my wife and I hurt my children and I've apologized to them individually and personally. But I didn't hurt the, the public at large. And what I told them when I came clean with what I was doing is I said, hey, this is what's going on. This is how I've behaved. And so now I'm trying to get into alignment, but I'm not apologizing to you.

• 1:05:59Speaker 00

  You have not been slighted by my behavior. In fact, you're better off because I shared what I shared, even though I struggled at times to uphold it in my own personal life.

• 1:06:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, I, I haven't, I hadn't really gone that deep down this, to be honest. I mean, thankfully it's been a while since I've had to apologize for anything publicly anyway.

• 1:06:20Speaker 00

  Don't do it. Don't, don't put yourself in a position where you have to like actually debate those things. That's the better way to do it. Let me ask you this, Sophia. Do you think that, I, I already know the answer, but what, let me ask it this way. What would you say to a man who says that pornography is not immoral? You know, you've got two consenting adults. One consenting to show her body and use that for visual or physical satisfaction. And one guy who agrees to compensate her with time, attention, energy, money, et cetera. Those are two consulting adult, consenting adults. What would you say to that guy?

• 1:07:02Speaker 02

  Uh, well, slight correction is three consenting adults because you're watching. So that's a, that's a.

• 1:07:09Speaker 00

  Wait, because what?

• 1:07:10Speaker 02

  Cause you're watching, there's a consumer, right? So you're, you're talking about two people on the screen and then the third person who's watching the pornography?

• 1:07:16Speaker 00

  Okay, fair, fair enough. Yes, fair enough. I, yes, fair enough.

• 1:07:19Speaker 02

  So, I mean, I think that would be a good starting point because if we're talking about what's moral and immoral, um, there's nothing, you know, constant, there's, there's nothing generally in a sexual conversation that is moral. That involves three parties. Usually it's all, it's always two. So that's a good starting point. Now, again, you can push back and be like, well, what if I'm just looking at pictures of a girl? Then it's me and her and you know, whatever, whatever.

• 1:07:38Speaker 00

  Exactly, right.

• 1:07:39Speaker 02

  So, so I, I understand that. So I think, I think at a deeper level, I would say there's a couple of things. Number one, the biggest lie that guys believe is that pornography only affects me. It only affects me. Um, I would love to go through, um, the guys that have been in the iron council. I can show you all the guys that have come through deep clean over the years. That will tell you firsthand pornography affected, um, their marriage. I'd affected future spouses. I just had somebody reach out to me very recently who's like, dude, I've been following your stuff, was single, knew I probably should have got this taken care of, didn't. I'm married. I thought marriage would take care of it. It did for the first three months. Then we got into our big first fight. Then we had a kid, like you can fill in your blank. I hear the story all the time. I'm back to pornography. She found out she's devastated.

• 1:08:24Speaker 02

  She wants to leave. Um, I get messages from women who want to leave their husbands over it. So I think, I think we have to understand if you have any interest in having a romantic relationship or you have one, your partner is likely going to be affected if she has any sense of self-worth. I think the, the second thing, and this is to the point earlier about guys who quit pornography step into their purpose. They take better care of their bodies and their physique and their fitness. There is something inherently destructive about pornography. So probably the most prolific researcher on, on porn addiction from a neuroscience perspective is a guy named Dr. Gary Wilson. He passed away during COVID, unfortunately. Um, but we're talking about over 800 peer reviewed journal articles about this stuff. Very, very, very knowledgeable. And his conclusion was that there were four main effects that pornography has on the brain.

• 1:09:10Speaker 02

  Desensitization. And so that's why, you know, the stuff that you used to watch back in the day doesn't really cut it anymore. Your brain built some tolerance and now you watch more hardcore content, more niche content. Maybe stuff that you even thought you'd never watch. Um, that happens. Uh, maybe it's why watching stuff online doesn't cut it for you anymore. And now you're meeting up with people or whatever it is. So desensitization is the escalation.

• 1:09:33Speaker 00

  And you know what's interesting about that? I've talked with women who are adamant, and I believe them by the way, are adamant that they can tell through sex, which of their partners watch porn and which don't.

• 1:09:48Speaker 02

  Oh dude, that's not, that's not like, that's not even a debate for me. That's such a no brainer. It's, it changes so much how you, how you show up and how you engage there. Yeah. Even to be honest, most women, like, most women that ask me, hey, like, I think my partner might be watching pornography. Like, what can I do? I'm like, oh, if you think he is, he, I would almost bet money he is. They always like, their intuition is just, is usually very on point.

• 1:10:14Speaker 00

  What is it, what is it about? What is it about the way that a man shows up, whether it's in the bedroom or just generally that women pick up on?

• 1:10:24Speaker 02

  So, okay, there's layers to this. I think the, um, the physical sexual part of it is that women, for women, sex is a very emotional experience. It is for men as well, but it's not necessarily the thing that's at the forefront when they're engaging. So for women, they, they will feel, they feel the difference in the emotional connection. And when your brain is programmed by pornography, that's not a woman. That's an object for your pleasure. So the way that you show up emotionally is very, very different than if that's a, a woman, a daughter of God. If we want to use some language from before, you're going to engage and treat her very differently, even when you're engaging sexually. I would say actually, especially when you're engaging sexually.

• 1:11:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, I bet there's a, there's a level of, um,

• 1:11:10Speaker 00

  empathy and consideration in the bedroom that may not exist otherwise.

• 1:11:14Speaker 02

  Eye contact, where do you go with your hands? How considered are you of her? What is the conversation? Is there dialogue going on? Like all, all, it's all little things that women may not even be able to articulate, but they, they're picking up that information. They're, they're compiling that data and they're saying like, yeah, something's off or this guy's not as connected.

• 1:11:33Speaker 00

  Interesting. Okay, keep going.

• 1:11:35Speaker 02

  The other, I would say the other layer emotionally for women is, um, when the conversation starts to get more personal, even, we're not talking about sexual things anymore, but just when it's more intimate. Women can feel when there's that block there, like when they're getting the wall. And so if they're getting, if they're getting the block or the wall, it's not like, oh, he's watching pornography. But they're like, oh, something feels off there. Um, I had a, a buddy reached out to me. This is a bit of an unfortunate story, but he's been married for about a decade now. Probably two years in, his, his wife is kind of, can kind of tell like, something's like, something's just like not fully adding up. And so she talks to him about it. She tries to talk to him about it a couple of times. She's kind of getting stonewalled and he's like, no, like everything's good.

• 1:12:20Speaker 02

  I'm, I'm very happy with the emotional connection. Like we're good. So they get a little bit, they go further down the track and, um, and then he, he comes to me, you know? And, and he's, he wanted to talk through some issues. And I, I ask him like, because his behavior was very indicative of, of a specific thing that you'll see in a minute. And so I had just asked him like, hey, like, tell me a little bit about like, you know, what was your upbringing like? You know, a super rigid religious home. And I'm like, okay, yeah, some things were kind of adding up, but, and then, so then I was like, okay, dude, have you experienced any, any sexual abuse before? And he's like, oh my gosh, you know, he was like a little bit, a little bit caught off guard by the question, but he's like, yeah, I haven't really told, told anyone about it. And he's like, actually my wife has been asking me for the last like year or two, if I, if I was ever sexually abused.

• 1:13:04Speaker 02

  Cause she's just, she could just feel like if that something was, was wrong. Um, and so he, he came clean about it. He did the right thing, but she was obviously really upset. She was hurt, um, because she had suspected for a year.

• 1:13:15Speaker 00

  What a selfish thing. Like what was she hurt about?

• 1:13:19Speaker 02

  Cause he lied. Cause she asked him, were you sexually abused? And he said, no.

• 1:13:22Speaker 00

  Okay, but like, look, I get both sides of the equation, but what a selfish thing to be hurt that a man is trying to position himself as, as a leader or somebody who's capable, somebody who's, you know, bold and assertive. And she's upset because he got sexually molested as a child. That's crazy to me. It's so selfish.

• 1:13:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I mean, again, I'm not giving you the full picture there. Like they, they worked through things and they did it well. Um, but she was upset about the dishonesty. And honestly, Ryan, I think that goes back to what we were saying earlier. Like he did something that, or he was portraying something that wasn't as it was. So he was, he was correcting and making it, making it right.

• 1:14:04Speaker 00

  Yeah. Again, I don't know the nuance, but like, we, we can't.

• 1:14:11Speaker 00

  Like it's crazy to me that we societally expect men to show up fully and capably and strong and bold and courageous and um and then you know then women in society will ask them to be vulnerable and the minute that we are and we actually share the truth we're looked down upon, we're frowned upon, we're diminished, we're punished for it, like you said, and then and then we societally say, well, he lied, of course he did, because he was trying to position himself to be the man, this is a completely off tangent here, this one gets me fired up a little, obviously.

• 1:14:49Speaker 02

  No, that's alright.

• 1:14:50Speaker 00

  He was trying to be the man that you wanted him to be.

• 1:14:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:54Speaker 00

  I'm not saying she's a horrible woman by any means, I'm just saying, don't expect your man to come clean, knowing that and history showing that the minute he does, he, you get the ick, for lack of a better term.

• 1:15:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. So I, I also disagree with those narratives out there that are like men should be vulnerable, then they're vulnerable and they're penalized, I'm not about it at all.

• 1:15:19Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:15:20Speaker 02

  I do think if you're hiding a lie, if you're hiding something in your marriage, though, I think a spouse has a right to be upset about it, that would be an upsetting thing.

• 1:15:27Speaker 00

  That's fair, it's fair enough.

• 1:15:28Speaker 02

  You know, yeah, like I think that's the core of it. Now, again, if that's all it is, and she's arms crossed and he has to go, and again, we see this as well, it's very unfortunate, and the spouse, arms crossed, and you gotta go figure your stuff out, because you're the porn addict, you're the person with the problems, and they're not, you know, they're not doing their part, they're not getting help, they're not getting support, they're not coming back with compassion, empathy, understanding, absolutely, that person's gonna be just as much problems as the porn addiction itself. So, you and I agree on that front, but I do think if you're hiding something, you do have to come clean about it.

• 1:15:58Speaker 00

  So I, I would say, I agree, and I was gonna ask you that question, so I, I would agree with that. So I think, I think there's some nuance here that we're, we're covering, so that's good.

• 1:16:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, and, and if you wanna go a step further, I would say where the woman has the right to be really upset is if she catches him. So I think in this story, he confessed it, right? So he's at least coming clean, that's like you're saying, that's a decision to be vulnerable, but if I'm hiding, I'm hiding, and then you catch me and then you're mad at me, I'm like, well, yeah, I did this thing that I know I wasn't supposed to be doing in the relationship, I hit it, so of course you're gonna be mad.

• 1:16:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, but the difference, the difference in this scenario is he wasn't, now, he may have been watching pornography, that's separate from the conversation we're having, something happened to him, he was victimized, he didn't actively go out and engage in poor behavior, that's the difference.

• 1:16:51Speaker 02

  Yes, absolutely, no, I agree with you, 100%. So, uh, to loop it back, I think when women engage sexually, they can often tell, there's, there's, there's just tells, and then I think emotionally, if they're not able to, like, if there's certain places they can't get into, they can't access emotionally, they can also feel that, and it does, again, it, it doesn't mean like, you know, he's definitely a porn addict, it's just where they start to wonder, like, why is there that lack of intimacy, or why do I hit a wall when I break this conversation?

• 1:17:21Speaker 00

  There's some questions there, for sure.

• 1:17:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:17:23Speaker 00

  I mean, we would do the same thing as men, like, if our wives wouldn't engage with us for a week, or two weeks, or a month, I'd be like, okay, where's she getting, where's she getting her needs met? Because it's not here, so, let me figure this out.

• 1:17:34Speaker 02

  100%.

• 1:17:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:17:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, 100%. Of course, yeah. Um, I'll finish off my thought about the, the neuroscience real quick, if I may. So, desensitization, um, hypofrontality, this is another big one, so you have the prefrontal cortex, the front part of your brain, um, this is where you develop your sense of self, identity, what we were talking about a few minutes ago, um, this is also where you learn, um, they call it executive decision-making, or functioning, so you can see long-term, you know, you save up money, you don't just impulse buy everything, that all happens here. Hypo means less of that, so you actually get less circulation to that part of your brain, and this is why a lot of guys who, who actually get engaged in pornography make bad decisions with finances, they make bad decisions with food, all that kind, like,

• 1:18:20Speaker 02

  it's all very interconnected, because it's actually affecting structures in your brain. Um, sensitization.

• 1:18:26Speaker 00

  Do you think that's correlation or causation, right? Is it, you know, the way you do one thing is the way you do everything? So, is that, is this hyperfrontality, I think you called it, is that a byproduct of watching pornography, or is pornography a byproduct of the way you're doing it in other aspects of your life? Because you're always looking for instant gratification.

• 1:18:46Speaker 02

  Well, it probably is, to be honest, it probably is initiated or instigated by pornography, because most of us get exposed to pornography at such a young age.

• 1:18:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I was like 10 or 11 years old.

• 1:18:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, dude, the average age of first exposure now is eight.

• 1:19:01Speaker 00

  It's crazy. I've got a 10-year-old, I can't even imagine him looking at pornography or even seeing it two years ago, it's crazy.

• 1:19:09Speaker 02

  It's right, and, but here's the big difference, and we, we were talking about this a little while ago, what you and I got exposed to, like a Sears catalog, or like, I had to download videos on Kazaa or LimeWire, that, like, so it took, it took hours, I had to, I had to hide it on the device, like the subfolder directory, you know, and the reality is, like, kids now just have it, they have it right there, and like you said, it's all BDSM, it's violence, it's a great, like, it's super intense, and sexual stimulation is processed in your brain 20% faster than any other kind. So the, the programming that comes from, like, sexual exposure, like pornography, is pretty real, so I would make a strong argument that it probably does start there, it's maybe

• 1:19:54Speaker 02

  not, it's not all initiated by pornography, like, I'm not that guy that everything bad in the world and in a guy's life is because of porn, but certainly, it plays a major role in it.

• 1:20:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, cool, keep going.

• 1:20:05Speaker 02

  Sensitization's the third one, so this sounds, uh, almost like a contradiction, because desensitization was the first one in the list. Sensitization is when non-sexual stimulation triggers porn use. So I'll give you a great example from my own life, um, if I ever walked into my room, probably 10 o'clock at night or later, and I had left my laptop open, that was like an instant cue for my, for my brain, like, I would just go there right away, something about seeing the laptop open, that's not true for everybody, in fact, I would say most people can see an open laptop, they don't think anything of it, but when I was really addicted to pornography, that was like, my brain had been sensitized to that particular visual, because that was such a part of my ritual.

• 1:20:47Speaker 00

  I mean, I, look, I think that's true, I, what, so, when I was watching pornography, I knew there was a problem, when I would be out in public, and I would just see an attractive woman, and I would think about her with her clothes off, or, hey, she's got nice breasts, or, like, every, just a wom, just like a random woman at the airport or a restaurant, and, like, I wasn't even necessarily attracted to her, but it all became sexualized, I'm like, oh yeah, this is a problem, like, everything is being viewed through the lens of me getting off, frankly.

• 1:21:24Speaker 02

  Hmm, yeah, yep, exactly, so that's exactly what sensitization is, it's cues and cravings, and then the fourth effect on the brain is, uh, which one did I, did I miss here? Uh, low stress response. So, and this is, and actually, I would love for you to speak into this a little bit, because this is, the low stress response thing is actually from, well, all of these, but this one especially, they've actually first observed in, like, alcohol addiction or drug addiction, which is much more studied and researched, but it's a common thing that as people get deeper down their addictions, the understanding is, their ability to handle their general stresses and responsibilities in life gets reduced, because they get so consumed by the substance or the behavior. Would you agree with that? Was that your experience?

• 1:22:06Speaker 00

  Uh, the way I'm understanding you're saying, yeah, I mean, when I was drinking, even just a drink would make me more, more agitated, less patient, more agitated.

• 1:22:16Speaker 02

  Did it affect your ability, like, to, to manage the, like, to manage the business, or to handle curveballs in the business, changes in the business, or curveballs at home, flares in your kids?

• 1:22:24Speaker 00

  When I was in the throes of my alcohol abuse, I would say, I did not think so, but, when I got sober, I realized, well, I convinced myself, I said, well, you know, I'm, I'm looser, I'm more enjoyable to be around, I'm a better podcaster, hell, Sophia, you and, you and I, I'd have to look at the dates, you and I may have done a podcast together where I was drunk.

• 1:22:48Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:22:49Speaker 00

  And I convinced myself that I'm a better podcaster, I'm, I'm better at this, I'm better at that, and I was still kind of checking all the boxes, so I convinced myself that I'm better this way, and then I, and then I got sober, and within a couple of weeks, I, I was like, oh my gosh, like, I was so ineffective, I can get, I can get all of my work done in three or four hours, and it was taking me three or four days to do the same level of work, but I didn't realize it until I was sober, so, the answer to your question is, yes, for sure, but I did not acknowledge it in the throes of my addiction.

• 1:23:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, exactly, so I, I think that, that, that would be like, it's very symptomatic, so a lot of guys, actually, I talked about this at The Forge, I got a lot of comments about it, a lot of guys experience, uh, low working memory from porn usage, so low working memory is when, you know, you open your phone, because you need to text your buddy, and then 10 minutes later, you're on a completely different app, and you forget why you opened your phone in the first place, and you didn't text your buddy. So this is like, this is the kind of low stress response.

• 1:23:56Speaker 00

  Like, I, I've had this, where you text your buddy, and he responds back to you, and you have a conversation with him, and then the next day, you're like, wait, I need to, I need to message Sophia, and you go back, you're like, oh shit, I had an entire conversation with him, I completely forgot about that.

• 1:24:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, so, um, yeah, again, like, there's plenty of data that shows pornography will have this effect on your brain, and all of it kind of stems back from that reduced stress response, um, and some hypofrontality as well, the other thing we were talking about.

• 1:24:30Speaker 00

  Man, this is so good, like, we could keep going, um, I just know, this, this has not been a big issue for me, you know, the alcohol stuff has been more so, but there's so much correlation here, that I just know what it's like to be, to be consumed, you know, I know what it's like to, to create the stories that you create, it's not that bad, everybody's consenting, it's not impacting me, it's not affecting me, I know all of those stories, and this is why I think it's so, so powerful to talk about, because I also believe, and I'll say this, and I'd be curious what you think about this.

• 1:25:03Speaker 00

  Um, when I was deeply involved in my addiction, I also knew at the core, there was something wrong. And I was really good at masking it and hiding it and telling myself it wasn't the case. I imagine that's the same with pornography. So what would you tell a guy who maybe is just consumed with usage? But is also deceiving himself, knowing that deep down inside, he knows what's happening. He knows what's going on.

• 1:25:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I think if you have to justify it, that probably tells you everything you need to know. But I would, I would ask a different question. I would actually ask, like, who do you want to be five years from now? And do you think you have a better chance of becoming that person with or without pornography in your life? And I have to imagine that will, that will clarify the priorities. Like, I have to imagine for you at some point, you realize like, actually, the person that I want to be probably is probably going to be better off without alcohol. Maybe you didn't realize that right away, but at some point, and at some point, you probably knew, like, actually, the person that I want to be is without alcohol, because who I am with alcohol is a problem. And I think with pornography, it has to be the same. I remember Jordan Peterson said this, I was, I paid for like a VIP ticket at one of his events.

• 1:26:20Speaker 02

  And he, somebody had asked him about casual sex. Dude, it was the funniest response. I wish it was recorded. Cause he, he basically was like, he's like, casual sex is the stupidest, stupidest thing I've ever heard of. He's like, sex? He's like, what is casual about sex? There's, there's nothing casual about it. He's like, that's the most oxymoronic thing in our society to think that you can have sex casually. And he was, it was a genius response. But one of the things he said, he went on a little tangent about addictions. And he said, he, cause he used to be an addiction psychologist before he kind of brought into his horizons.

• 1:26:47Speaker 00

  Oh, I didn't know that.

• 1:26:48Speaker 02

  And yeah, yeah, for, for years, I forget how long, but he's, he's very knowledgeable about it. And he said, the main reason that people quit addiction is because they find something better to do. And so what better thing could you be doing in your life if pornography wasn't around? Like, what better husband could you be? What better thing might you be doing for your kids?

• 1:27:10Speaker 02

  I have, dude, I, I hope I don't get emotional, but I might. This story always gets me. I was recording a testimonial with a guy that had finished our program. He'd been clean of pornography for, I think it was about nine months at the time. But he had a faith revitalization and a bunch of things in his life turned around. And he said, my kids, my kids don't know that it's been nine months since I've watched pornography. But they do know it's been nine months since I yelled at them.

• 1:27:36Speaker 02

  And I'm just like, dude, that, like, to me, that's it. Like, what, like, maybe his kids never need to know about that. But they see the difference in dad. He's showing up differently. He's a different man because, because he's, he figured out, he figured this area of his life out. So, you know, what, what changes in your life, uh, family wise, maybe in your career?

• 1:27:58Speaker 02

  What changes? A lot of guys quit pornography and then they make more money. I just, just talked to a guy who, with all the energy, all the time he got back, he started going to work early. Boss noticed it. He's been clean of pornography three years now since he finished our program. And he's gotten two raises and two promotions in the last year. Cause just with his extra energy, he just started showing up differently, started being more productive. So, um, it's, it's, I'm not going to try to logic you into this thing if you think pornography is okay to keep around. But I just, the reason I do what I do is because I see what guys can be and I see pornography hold them back. And I think if, if that's you, you know, and if you know there's more, there's more that you could experience and you're not experiencing it. I think you have a much better shot at it without pornography.

• 1:28:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, I would agree. Without any addiction, I would definitely agree. Well, Cynthia, I appreciate you, man. I know you've got your inner circle. I know you've got some other programs available. So for anybody who's interested in learning more about what you do and connecting with you, where do they do that?

• 1:28:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, the last relapsebook.com is your place to get the book. I mentioned that a couple of times. That's a great place to kind of get, get the blueprint, understand our framework. But look, if you're, you know, we're an hour and 20 minutes into this conversation, if you made it this far and you know it's time to do something about this, um, Inner Circle is our brotherhood of guys from around the world pursuing freedom from pornography. Uh, all the stories I shared, um, they, they are going through that exact same system right now. And, um, and so we'd love to invite you to be a part of that if, uh, the inner circle sounds right for you. And, uh, we'll, I'll send the link over to your team, Ryan, so they can throw it in there if people want to check it out.

• 1:29:31Speaker 00

  Excellent. We'll sync it all up. Brother, I appreciate you. Keep up the good work. Men need this and, uh, I'm glad to know you. And, uh, I know a lot of guys are getting value from what you do. So thanks for joining us today.

• 1:29:41Speaker 02

  Thanks, Ryan. Thanks for having me.

• 1:29:44Speaker 00

  Gentlemen, there you go. My conversation with Mr. Cynthia Sam, a good friend of mine and obviously such an intelligent and powerful speaker on the subject of overcoming pornography addiction. And it's something that so many men need to address, and I hope it helps you. If you want to connect with him, do so at cethiasam.com or on the gram, at Cynthia Sam. Also just take a screenshot. There's a lot of guys that you work with, your friends, your, your father, your brothers, your cousins, colleagues, coworkers, who might be struggling with overcoming pornography addiction. And if that's the case, I want you to introduce them to this show. Just take a screenshot, tag me, tag Cynthia, and, uh, let people know what you're listening to and how it serves you.

• 1:30:30Speaker 00

  Guys, uh, other than that, make sure that you check out our War Room on the differences between the enforcer, the rescuer, and the anchor. Again, that's going to be held September 16th at 8:00 PM Eastern. Head to orderofman.com/warroom, orderofman.com/warroom. And then check out a knife from Montana Knife Company for your upcoming hunt. And if you do have an upcoming hunt, now you know what knife to use. If you do not have an upcoming hunt, now you know what knife you need to get when you get that scheduled. All right, guys, we will be back tomorrow for our Ask Me Anything. Until then, go out there, take action and become the man you are meant to be.

• 1:31:13Speaker 01

  Thank you for listening to the Order of Man Podcast. You ready to take charge of your life and be more of the man you were meant to be? We invite you to join the order at orderofman.com.