PARIS JACKSON: “No Intervention Could Have Gotten Me Sober”

Musician and artist Paris Jackson joins Jay for an extraordinarily raw, courageous, and deeply honest conversation on addiction, recovery, and the messy, non-linear journey of healing. Paris reflects on her unconventional childhood, the chronic loneliness that shadowed her early years, and the dark reality of substance abuse that nearly cost her her life and her voice. She opens up about the trauma of adolescent rehab centers, surviving severe mental health crises, and why true recovery requires moving beyond symptom-focused treatment to embrace holistic health, self-grace, and spiritual surrender. Together, Jay and Paris explore the power of inner child work, why pain can be alchemized into medicine, and how finding a conscious connection to something higher can help us feel truly safe in our own skin. Healing is not linear, and growth is not a straight line, it’s a spiral. Every time you revisit a challenge, you are meeting it with more wisdom, more resources, and a deeper capacity for self-forgiveness. Trust that your darkest moments can become your most potent medicine, and that peace begins the moment you give yourself permission to feel it all. With Love and Gratitude, Jay Shetty PURPOSE10 for 10% at altrarunning.com/onpurpose. Free Shipping and Free 30-Day Trial. Your future is waiting, and Walden is here to help you achieve it. https://WaldenU.edu JAY’S DAILY WISDOM DELIVERED STRAIGHT TO YOUR INBOX Join 900,000+ readers discovering how small daily shifts create big life change with my free newsletter. Subscribe here: https://news.jayshetty.me/subscribe Check out our Apple subscription to unlock bonus content of On Purpose! https://lnk.to/JayShettyPodcast What We Discuss: 00:00 Intro 1:31 The Meaning Behind 'Happiest Day of My Life' 5:07 Unconventional Childhood and Homeschooling Reflections 6:32 One of Paris’s Most Defining Childhood Memories 8:03 Buddhist Parables, Balance, and Letting Go of Judgment 10:52 Chronic Loneliness and The Roots of Addiction 12:20 Redefining Gateway Drugs and Escapism 14:15 The Severe Consequences of Substance Abuse 19:30 Rebuilding Trust and Finding Authentic Friendship 22:27 Suicide Attempts, Turning Points, and Choosing Sobriety 23:34 Adolescent Rehab Trauma 31:38 Developing a Relationship with a Higher Power 35:17 The Dance Between Spiritual Surrender and Intentional Action 36:37 Analyzing 'Stitched' and Soul Connections 40:22 Inner Child and Inner Teen Healing Work 43:07 The Spiral Nature of Healing and Growth 46:24 ECT Treatment, Western Medicine, and Holistic Health Shifts 54:42 Finding Regulation Through Physicality, Nature, and Animals 59:25 Temporality of Emotions and Embracing Life's Full Spectrum 01:03:17 Paris Jackson on Final Five Episode Resources: Website | https://www.parisjacksonofficial.com/ Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/parisjackson YouTube | https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmy63O0SRIlz58gwiZhbbIA X | https://x.com/ParisJackson Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jay Shetty?

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• 0:44Jay Shetty?

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• 1:29Jay Shetty?

  AG1 Next Gen is one of those easy habits to keep. It's the clinically backed, comprehensive daily health drink that supports your gut health, energy production, and foundational nutrition all in one scoop. AG1's ingredients are sourced from quality partners for absorption, potency, and nutrient density to deliver the foundational nutrition your body needs. And alongside a proper diet, AG1 Next Gen meets 94% of nutrient requirements and it's clinically shown to enrich the gut microbiome. For a limited time, save 20% on your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro at drinkag1.com/onpurpose.

• 2:11Jay Shetty?

  That's drinkag1.com/onpurpose. This episode is brought to you by Vinted. Value can be found anywhere, even in the clothes sitting untouched in our closets. That's where Vinted comes in. Vinted is a secondhand marketplace app where you can sell clothes you no longer want and get more value out of them. Whether you're running out of space, moving, or simply updating your wardrobe. Listing items is a quick and simple process. And once something sells, Vinted creates a prepaid shipping label for you. And the best part, there are no seller fees. So you keep what you earn. It's a simple way to clear out your closet, be less wasteful, and maybe make some extra money along the way. And if you've been thinking about a wardrobe refresh, this can make it feel a little more worthwhile.

• 2:56Jay Shetty?

  You're not just letting go of clothes, you're getting more value from what you already have. Give your clothes a second life with Vinted. Download the Vinted app for free to start selling with no seller fees. So you keep every dollar you earn. And we didn't get to introduce Kai.

• 3:11Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, he's napping right now.

• 3:13Jay Shetty?

  And you have more animals, you said?

• 3:14Speaker 01

  I have five right now.

• 3:15Jay Shetty?

  Who are the others?

• 3:16Speaker 01

  I have three cats and I have another dog.

• 3:18Jay Shetty?

  What are their names?

• 3:19Speaker 01

  Kavi is the main coon. And then the other two cats are Canaan and Cairo. And then I have, this is Kai, and then my other dog is Koa.

• 3:28Jay Shetty?

  What's the addiction to K?

• 3:29Speaker 01

  Uh, well, I go by PK.

• 3:31Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 3:32Speaker 01

  And the K has been one of my favorite parts of my name. I'm named after my grandmother Catherine, so.

• 3:37Jay Shetty?

  Where did the name Kavi come from?

• 3:38Speaker 01

  It means sage, his full name is Kavi Raja. And I mean sage, sage king.

• 3:42Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I love that. Hey, it's Jay. I don't know what your day's been like, but I was just thinking about you for a minute. And I hope you're being a little patient with yourself because you deserve it. And yeah, I'll talk to you soon.

• 4:06Jay Shetty?

  Paris, welcome to On Purpose.

• 4:08Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me.

• 4:09Jay Shetty?

  I'm so grateful that I got to listen to some of the album in preparation for the interview. And I found it captivating, I found it moving. I found parts of it painful and difficult and challenging in a, in a really cathartic way. And I found parts of it quite nostalgic, which was really, really beautiful, actually. When something makes you feel like familiarity and positivity at the same time. And so, thank you for putting it together. I wanted to ask you, obviously the album's called Happiest Day of My Life. And you've said that you feel like you're in the happiest place in your life at the moment.

• 4:48Speaker 01

  I do. The, the song title, as well as the cover and kind of everything is, is a bit tongue in cheek. And also, it is cool to say that I am really happy right now.

• 4:58Jay Shetty?

  Talk to me about the tongue in cheek part and the part that feels like it's true.

• 5:01Speaker 01

  So the lyrics are, "This could be the happiest day of my life, but nothing lasts forever." And so it's kind of like, uh, I've always really enjoyed self-deprecating humor. Something with like a pessimistic view, even though, you know, in the last year, I've really redirected my perspective. And I tend to look for the silver lining and I tend to look for the deeper meaning in things. And that hasn't made me happier. I still do enjoy pessimism in a humorous way. And I, I enjoy kind of self-deprecating humor and things like that. And so the "nothing lasts forever" second half of that line is, is very much just like, almost making fun of my negativity.

• 5:40Jay Shetty?

  That's interesting. I, I feel like as a Brit, I can totally understand the self-deprecating humor part.

• 5:45Speaker 01

  Obviously, the, the cover art is kind of the opposite of like happiest day of my, it's kind of just, yeah, a little tongue in cheek.

• 5:53Jay Shetty?

  What would the happiest day of your life look like? If you had to paint an ideal day, what does it look like?

• 5:58Speaker 01

  Ideally, having gotten enough sleep. Like a good, solid amount of sleep. Waking up, feeling rested. I probably need 10 hours. I rarely get it. Usually I get between six and eight. But as, as a female, I do need more. So if I could get 10, that'd be killer. My body usually doesn't let me do that.

• 6:16Jay Shetty?

  Same, I would love 10 hours.

• 6:18Speaker 01

  That'd be super sick if I could do that. And then, um, yeah, wake up, have my, have my coffee, hang out with my animals for a little bit. Maybe do something that is, you know, good for my body. Any kind of like somatic or aerobic thing, like maybe rock climb or something. And spend time with friends. Something related to music, whether it's writing or playing or just practicing guitar or something like that. And then, you know, early bedtime, some good food.

• 6:44Jay Shetty?

  Sounds like a perfect day.

• 6:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:46Jay Shetty?

  You told us about your happiest day today. What did a day in your life look like when you were growing up, when you were a young girl?

• 6:52Speaker 01

  It's funny because it's almost similar to how I live now, which is every day is very different. I know a lot of kids, they'll maybe wake up, have breakfast, go to school, do some kind of after school activity, go home, have dinner, go to bed. And that is like every day. My days were constantly changing. There was a lot of travel, there was a lot of just moving about, seeing new places. I was homeschooled for the first six grades. And anytime we'd be in a new country, our, we would learn about that country that we were in. We'd learn the folklore of the country, we'd learn the legends. It really just depended on what city we were in, what country we were in. It's kind of hard to be like, oh, what was the average day? There, there was no average, really.

• 7:36Jay Shetty?

  This episode of On Purpose is presented by Ultra Running. We all benefit from having a little more space, so do our feet. That's why Ultra Running shoes feature Ultra Fit design, giving toes more room for comfort, balance, and strength. They're perfect for running, walking, or hiking. Any pace, any level, they feel right from the first step. Go to ultrarunning.com/onpurpose and use code PURPOSE10 for 10% off. That's A-L-T-R-A running.com/onpurpose. Stay out there. What does homeschooling look like? What's your take on it? Do you look back at that experience and go, that was really positive, I liked being homeschooled, I saw value in it? Or do you look back at it and go,

• 8:20Jay Shetty?

  hmm, I'm not sure I'd do that if I ever had kids or?

• 8:23Speaker 01

  I think there's, there's things to take from it and things to maybe not take from it, like most things.

• 8:29Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 8:29Speaker 01

  I really valued the, uh, sort of tones and specifics of a lot of what I learned through homeschooling. Because there's, there's a lot that I don't really agree with as far as the standard curriculum goes throughout the United States. I think there's something to be said about depending on which state you live in. Your history book is going to tell you something completely different. Seattle's very different from, you know, West Virginia. Like, you're just going to get different lessons. And also, there is definitely maybe like a lack of social exposure as far as peers go. So I definitely had a bit of a speed bump and, uh, kind of, you know, had to adapt very quickly when I started interacting with people my age.

• 9:10Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I, I found that, like, I was born and raised in London. And growing up, learning about British history, and even though I'm Indian, only learning about what happened in India, like years later and being like, oh wow, that was not in my history books whatsoever. And, and being just quite shocked by it about how I could have just completely missed that part of my heritage and history. And so, you're so right when you talk about how much is lost in national curriculums or state curriculums, as you said.

• 9:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:37Jay Shetty?

  That, that you just don't come across.

• 9:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:39Jay Shetty?

  One of my favorite questions to ask people, and I ask it often on the show, is what's a childhood memory that you have that you feel defines who you are today? Or a moment or experience that you had that you look back on and think, yeah, that really showcases who I still am today?

• 9:54Speaker 01

  My first instinct is to be like, all of them. Because all of the people that we meet are, you know, help create pieces of me and, and blah, blah, blah. But for some reason, I am getting this, this one memory. This was during a very short period where we were in LA. And I was probably 10. And there was a hummingbird that we thought was dead. And I was really affected by that. You know, I held it in my hands and, you know, my dad was like, no, there might be germs. But I was very like, no, I want to hold it and I want to mourn it and I want to be gentle with it and I want to love it. And it must not have been dead because after I like cried over it and held it, I went outside and I was going to bury it

• 10:39Speaker 01

  and I opened my hands to look at it and it flew away. And that was like a really beautiful, even looking back on it, spiritual experience. But just that kind of, when I feel things, I feel so big and I feel so deeply. And I think I've always been like that. And I hopefully always will be because it's, you know, one of the most beautiful aspects of, of life is to feel the highest highs and the lowest lows.

• 11:04Jay Shetty?

  That sounds like such a healing experience.

• 11:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was beautiful.

• 11:07Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 11:07Speaker 01

  I forgot about that until now.

• 11:09Jay Shetty?

  That's so beautiful. I love that. That's such a special memory. I love the idea. The reason why I love it even more is because there's the famous teaching of the Buddha about, have you ever heard the story of how a monk in the monastery finds a bird that seems hurt? And the monk wants to help it. And the monk goes to pick it up and the Buddha goes, be really careful. Because if you hold it too tight, you might actually break its wings or hurt it. But then the monk says, but if I don't hold it tight enough, then it will fly away or it will hurt itself again. And the Buddha says, don't hold it too tight or too loose.

• 11:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:44Jay Shetty?

  And that's that idea of like that balance in life of you can't hold yourself too tight or too loose. And if you want to help someone, you can't hold them too tight or too loose. And this idea of just finding that comfort, it sounds like you held that bird perfectly.

• 11:56Speaker 01

  Just the right.

• 11:57Jay Shetty?

  Just the right.

• 11:58Speaker 01

  I love, I love those stories. There's been a few parables that I've, that I've gotten from the Buddhist philosophy that I really, really love. That have really just kind of guided me.

• 12:06Jay Shetty?

  And there any that come to mind there?

• 12:08Speaker 01

  You know, the who's to say one, the farmer's parable?

• 12:10Jay Shetty?

  Yes, go on.

• 12:11Speaker 01

  That one is just.

• 12:12Jay Shetty?

  I love it. Go on.

• 12:12Speaker 01

  No, I'm gonna, I'm gonna butcher it. I'm gonna butcher it. But it's just this idea of who's to say what's good or bad. And, and I, I've really been in the last year, I've really been trying to practice. The belief that nothing is good or bad. It's either, you know, light or heavy energy and heavier energies are harder to mulch, but it's still. It's still divine, you know, and it's still for a reason. And it's still, you know, whether someone believes in God or the universe or multiple deities or whatever the belief is, is that. It's for a reason, kind of thing.

• 12:44Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I can't imagine how happy the 10 year old version of you was when the bird flew away.

• 12:48Speaker 01

  It was magic.

• 12:48Jay Shetty?

  Did you felt like you saved it and healed it?

• 12:50Speaker 01

  Of course I did. I was 10. I was like, I have magical powers.

• 12:54Jay Shetty?

  You do. I do think there's a healing energy to how a 10 year old must have held that bird.

• 12:59Speaker 01

  I have a lot of apprehension with vocalizing some of my more woo woo beliefs. Just because I've been, you know, I've, I've been on the receiving end of a lot of skeptics. I have an inner skeptic that lives in me. That's like, let's preface every story with, I could be wrong, but.

• 13:15Jay Shetty?

  That's beautiful. Well, I wanted to ask you about how, you know, when you think about memories like that, that come to mind. At the same time, you know, when you're listening to your music, there's so much about. As you said, the heaviness of life. And I love what you just said right now about how. Life's not really good or bad. It's either light or heavy and emotional experience. And I think that's such a healthy way of looking at it. I think we're so quick as humans to label something as good, bad, right, wrong. And I've been trying to use words like honest more. As in, I want moments to be honest. I want them to be experienced. I want them to feel. Real.

• 13:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:55Jay Shetty?

  Rather than good or bad or right or wrong, which feel so conclusive and certain. When did things start to feel heavier for you in life? And when did you start to kind of feel the weight of that, that we feel in your music as you're expressing it?

• 14:10Speaker 01

  Like eight, I'd say, probably about eight. Like I remember, you know, being so surrounded by love and, you know, playing Hot Wheels with my brother. And then going into my room and being alone for a second and having that like sinking, like empty.

• 14:29Speaker 01

  Just feeling, you know, it's hard to explain if, if you don't know what I'm talking about, but it's a. That has kind of been this sort of. I don't want to say companion because it's not the most pleasant thing, but it's, it's been a through line throughout my life. This kind of almost chronic loneliness that I think definitely plays a part in alcoholism, drug addiction.

• 14:52Speaker 01

  Depression, anxiety, things like that.

• 14:53Jay Shetty?

  When you start to experience that, that young, I also imagine there wasn't really a vocabulary for that 20 years ago. In the easiest sense, like, did you even know what you were experiencing? Like?

• 15:02Speaker 01

  No, I didn't, I didn't know what it was. I should know that it sucked. It sucked bad. And just having like unmanageable thoughts and feelings and, and. As I got older, learning how to search outside of myself for things, people, places, things that could. You know, kind of ease that or help me manage it. And for the longest, survival skills versus coping skills.

• 15:29Jay Shetty?

  When you started to notice them at the time, what did you think it was? Where did you think it came from? And what did you do with those feelings?

• 15:35Speaker 01

  I don't know. I mean, I was, I was eight or nine or seven. I don't know exactly when, but it was just like a. Yeah, I didn't know what to, I didn't know what to do about it. And then, you know, obviously as I got a little bit older, I started trying things that would kind of Band-Aid it. For a time or if anything distract me from it. And that's what substances did for a long time.

• 15:59Jay Shetty?

  When did you first get exposed to drugs?

• 16:02Speaker 01

  I mean, that's kind of a perspective thing because alcohol can be a drug.

• 16:06Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 16:06Speaker 01

  So that was, that was in my early teen years, 14 ish, I think. Weed, I don't really consider a drug, but I treat it like one. It is a plant medicine and it is so helpful to so many people. But because there's no way for me to be in right relationship with it, I stay away from it. And that was something that I treated as a gateway. I don't like that people call it a gateway drug. Cause I know for so many people, it's not, it was for me. And then, I mean, yeah, by the time I was 19, I was on like narcotics.

• 16:35Jay Shetty?

  And did you just feel that, like you said, it was a, almost like something that numbed you? Was it an escape? What did it do for you that you couldn't find anywhere else at the time?

• 16:44Speaker 01

  Not numb, because I, again, I feel very deeply. So I think it just brought me to a more moderated. I could still cry. I could still kind of laugh. I could still, you know. I think it just made me feel normal. It made me feel more like managed. And it wasn't that it was like an escape. It was just. I don't like that word either, because a lot of, a lot of people when talking about addiction, they, they use the term escape. And I don't think that it felt that way for me. I think part of it was, I just simply loved the effect produced by these things. And it just made me feel different than how I was used to feeling, which sucked.

• 17:24Jay Shetty?

  How did it then affect your day to day life? Because it sounds like it was helpful in the beginning at least.

• 17:31Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, it's always, you know, fun at first and fun with problems and problems with fun and then just problems. It's typically the, that's the progression.

• 17:38Jay Shetty?

  Where does that come from? Is that a lyric?

• 17:40Speaker 01

  No, it's just, it's something that, you know, my, my friends and I have picked it up around.

• 17:44Jay Shetty?

  Say that again. That was so good. I've never heard someone say it that way.

• 17:46Speaker 01

  It's fun, then fun with problems and problems with fun. And then it's just problems.

• 17:51Jay Shetty?

  Talk to me about that journey, that arc.

• 17:53Speaker 01

  Hindsight's 2020. When I look back on that journey, there were plenty of experiences that should have. Qualified as bottoms that would have gotten me sober, but just wasn't enough. And it's kind of that, it takes what it takes and it had to get to a certain point for me. There were certain things I experienced that would have scared other people into getting sober, but it didn't do that for me yet. It was a lot of this.

• 18:17Jay Shetty?

  What was the experience, if you can share with us, that felt closest that you felt? In your words, should have or could have got you to want to be sober?

• 18:27Speaker 01

  I mean, one of them that really should have, uh, maybe done it. Should have, as if I should be the one in control. Okay. Well, I blew a hole through my nose, which is, you know, public knowledge. I have a perforated, it's not deviated, it's perforated. So it, it whistles, you know, I can show you after the cameras aren't rolling. Like I'll shine a light and you can see straight through, you know, my nose. And I freaked out. There's blood everywhere. I looked in my, you know, in the mirror and I saw it. And when I went to the doctor, he obviously knew what it was from, because that only happens from, you know, cocaine, ketamine, just snorting drugs. And it was like, we can fix this. But if you keep going, it's just going to happen again. There's only so many reconstructive surgeries we can do. So if you're not done, I wouldn't bother yet.

• 19:11Speaker 01

  And I remember having the thought of, well, I'm not done. And that was one, I mean, I've had, you know, someone OD on my drugs that I had to breathe for, for, for the, until the paramedics showed up. And they were like, if you didn't get there in time, he'd either be dead or brain dead. I mean, I've had plenty of experiences that were scary enough to have gotten me sober, but I just wasn't ready. You know, no intervention or traumatizing event could have gotten me there until I was actually ready.

• 19:41Jay Shetty?

  In the way you described it, I'm wondering, when did experimenting turn into addiction for you?

• 19:45Speaker 01

  I mean, I, I've always been the type of person to reach outside of myself to, to, and just become and consuming relationships with things. I mean, even now with, with, you know, over half a decade sober, like I. I will turn Pilates into an addiction. I will turn rock climbing into an addiction. I can turn meditation into an addiction. So the, the main focus in this last year has been, okay, how do I get into right relationship with it? One of the scariest and probably darkest. Moments of my addiction, which was still a year before I got sober, was I'd been freebasing. Heroin and fentanyl. And you can't really smoke it out of a pipe because the effect produces you not out. And so if you have a glass pipe, it's just going to break every time you, you know, get too high.

• 20:30Speaker 01

  And I had lost my voice for, for three months because I was using foil. And I didn't think I was ever going to be able to sing again. For the first month, I couldn't talk at all. Like it was just this strained, like whispery. And I didn't even pick up guitar, my, my guitar during that time. Cause it was like, well, if I can't sing and write, then what's the point? Cause I don't consider myself a guitar player. I know enough just to write. And that was several months of, uh, yeah, not, not thinking I was ever going to be able to do. Literally what I feel is my life, passion and purpose ever again.

• 21:03Jay Shetty?

  What did that feel like?

• 21:04Speaker 01

  What's a good word for it? I don't know that it's hopelessness because hopelessness. Grants the gift of desperation, which typically leads to sobriety. In the right circumstance, but pointlessness maybe.

• 21:19Jay Shetty?

  When I hear you describe these moments, I wonder what you now looking back. If you wanted people to know and understand something about your life during that time. Or that you think would help them, what would, what would you say reflecting back now on that time in your life?

• 21:32Speaker 01

  I don't think I need to. Because I, I do believe that it's through hearing other people's stories of recovery. That I was able to open my ears and find recovery myself. And so it's kind of like a, almost like a word of mouth and, and giving of experience, strength and hope to each other. That helps us stay sober, this beautiful like community that that can exist. And I think for people outside of that, it's not really for them. And, uh, and it is interesting. I've definitely spent several years.

• 22:07Speaker 01

  Where the sobriety has been celebrated and it's been, you know, this, this amazing piece of connection for me and these people that I love so deeply.

• 22:17Speaker 01

  And then I'll see maybe someone's reaction that doesn't understand and maybe someone's reaction that's on the outside of it. And there is a lot of judgment. There is a lot of like, drug addicts, like, and that was definitely a bit startling for me. One of the first times I really experienced that kind of reaction because this whole time, once I actually went from seeking recovery to being in recovery, I've started seeing it as my, this is my superpower. Like, I now see that my experience can benefit other people. My deepest moments of suffering, once I transform them and alchemize them, they can become very potent pieces of medicine for other people. What a gift. And so that's been my perspective. And then when I hear the exact opposite from someone else, it's

• 23:01Speaker 01

  like, whoa, you know, it's very startling.

• 23:05Jay Shetty?

  I remember a few years back, we had Tom Holland on the show and he was talking about his sobriety journey. And the reason, I just saw him this morning. And so I was thinking about it again, and just how many messages we still get years later on with people saying, hearing his story has helped them on their journey.

• 23:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:22Jay Shetty?

  And I can imagine with the same as you're sharing right now, I, you know, look forward to the messages you'll get and I'll get and that we'll get for the show that people hearing your story will help them. Because I think when you're in those moments, I imagine, as you said, you feel extremely lonely, you feel depressed. I've heard people say things to me like, you just feel like you shouldn't be there. Things could be better without you. There's, there's so many thoughts that kind of spiral in your mind. What would you say were the most common thoughts that came into your mind at the time?

• 23:52Speaker 01

  A lot of terminal uniqueness, no one understands, kind of thing, which is almost humorous at this point, because a lot of sober people that I talk to have had that at some point. And that is what, what separates us. We look for the differences as opposed to the similarities. And it is through hearing other people's stories. I've been in situations where I'm talking to someone that has never had a drink or a drug, and they've never even smoked a cigarette. And they're trying to tell me about my heroin addiction. I'm not going to listen to them. Like, respectfully, you don't know what you're talking about. So I'm just not going to take. But then I hear someone whose story is so much worse than mine, or, you know, they've, they've just seen more and been through more

• 24:34Speaker 01

  and done more. If they can get it, I can get it, kind of a thing. It's a tricky line to kind of tread as far as talking about these things on, on podcasts or interviews and things like that, because I, I by no means want to be like a spokesperson for sobriety. But sharing my story is something that has helped me. Hearing other people's stories has helped me. So if I can pay that forward, absolutely. But I also, like, I don't want to be a spokesperson. I don't give advice. I'm not going to tell someone to not do a drug because I needed to, to get to a certain point. And thank God I did. So I'm not going to try and rob someone of their experience. It's very much like, you go and do your own thing. If you need to go do research, that's, you know, that's

• 25:19Speaker 01

  your life.

• 25:21Jay Shetty?

  When drugs started to first become a part of your life, did the adults in your life notice and try and intervene or help and support?

• 25:28Speaker 01

  I hid it really well. Even my self harm, I hid for a couple of years before my family found out. And that was like, one of my first addictive kind of things. That was one of the first, like, compulsive addictions that I fell into was cutting and occasionally burning. I'm pretty good at hiding it in the beginning. And then it starts to get kind of unmanageable. There were some people that, you know, tried to step in, you know, I would deny it. I'd find a way out of it, as we do. We're slippery folk, addictive people. Yeah, I mean, eventually I got to, there was an intervention. I was sent away. It didn't do anything. You know, I wasn't ready. I was still convinced that. I'm like, okay, well, yeah, I'll go because I need help getting off of heroin. So the doctor can give me subs. But, you know, I'm still going to drink and smoke weed. Didn't think that,

• 26:13Speaker 01

  you know, that was going to be a problem, which it was.

• 26:16Jay Shetty?

  And at that time, as far as I know, you were sent to one of the centers in Utah.

• 26:22Speaker 01

  That was after a suicide attempt. So that was when I was 15. The rehab, my family sent, the other rehab my family sent me to, I was not, I was 20 years old, I think. But yeah, Utah, that, I was 15. That was after a suicide attempt. And CPS was like, you guys got to send her away because she's, you know, she's already been to the psych ward a couple of times.

• 26:41Jay Shetty?

  What was the experience like at those centers in Utah? I think we've all had horrific stories about them. And I've not personally interacted with them in any way. And so I wonder, for those of us who don't know, how would you describe them? What was that experience like?

• 26:55Speaker 01

  I mean, each one was different. You know, I know some other, some other people that, that have been to ones that were not as bad or worse. I definitely left with more PTSD than I went in there with and had nightmares for two or three years about going back after I finally left. Because I was there for a couple of months, I had two years. I was one of the lucky ones where we didn't experience physical or sexual abuse. But there was definitely a lot of psychological, emotional, spiritual abuse that happened there. Yeah, like pitting, pitting the clients against each other, kind of a thing, learning how to like, oh, I can't trust my roommate. I can't trust my therapist. I can't trust anybody here because anything you say could put you on the lowest level and could, you know, and you can't really

• 27:39Speaker 01

  call your family and tell them because they're listening and they will, you know, call your family and be like, don't listen to her. She's lying to you. And then you get a consequence for, you know, and you're on meds and you're zombied out. And it's just, you know, it's, it's, it was rough. You have to learn how to kind of play the game if you want to get out.

• 27:56Jay Shetty?

  How's that meant to help anyone?

• 27:57Speaker 01

  Rehabilitation, I think, is a case by case. Whether it's like a young kids treatment center, or a drug addiction rehab, or a, you know, jail or prison or institution, like rehabilitation is kind of a case by case. And I don't know that you can just blanket something and just cover everybody with, with one method.

• 28:19Jay Shetty?

  Did that affect how you trusted people later on in life after that experience?

• 28:23Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, for sure. For sure. And, and it's a shame because I found a lot of beauty in finally learning how to trust.

• 28:33Jay Shetty?

  Talk to me about that journey with trust specifically. When you're in that position where you don't know if you can trust your therapist, your roommate, the people who are meant to be helping you and supporting you.

• 28:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:43Jay Shetty?

  How does one even go back to beginning to trust someone else outside of that space?

• 28:47Speaker 01

  It was definitely a lot to layer on top of an already existing issue with trust as far as, you know, people having ulterior motives and trying to take advantage and, and take. But I think it was just something that happened slowly over time. Yeah, time and consistency. And I've, I've been lucky enough to have some people that have just shown up over and over and over. Like, my best friend of 10 years, just showing up, showing up, showing up.

• 29:17Jay Shetty?

  In every situation?

• 29:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's, it's for with the people that I do trust, it's, it's something that, you know, takes time to build. I've heard this saying that it's lost in gallons and gained back in drops. And, um, yeah, drop by drop.

• 29:33Jay Shetty?

  How do you define a good friend?

• 29:35Speaker 01

  Integrity. The integrity has to match a certain level. The humor is very important. And just the sense of home, I think. I've really whittled my friend group down over the last few years. And the group that the people in my life right now are the most incredible human beings I've ever met. Just really high integrity, really loyal, really funny, just salt of the earth human beings that I can call and they'll, they'll show up. You know, and they can call me and I'll show up. I'm multiple people's emergency contact. And I have a few on mine. And it's, it's, it's one of the most priceless things. You know, money can't really buy that.

• 30:19Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, you want the friend who gets a call at 2am and they're there for you.

• 30:22Speaker 01

  Oh, I'm packing a bag. I'll be there, you know.

• 30:23Jay Shetty?

  I'm so happy that you found that. I feel like everyone deserves that. And

• 30:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:27Jay Shetty?

  As you said, that feeling of home.

• 30:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:29Jay Shetty?

  Everyone's born in a home and then spends their whole life trying to find belonging. And it's a strange thing to say. It's like, it's weird. We, you're born with families, you make friends at, at school or at some place, and you're still searching for belonging the whole time. And so when you kind of find it as an adult, it's, it's pretty rare and spectacular. What is it that then led to you wanting to even become sober? I mean, you're saying at 15, you've had, had a suicide attempt.

• 30:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've had quite a few of those.

• 30:58Jay Shetty?

  What led you to that? What, what led you to want to get to that place?

• 31:01Speaker 01

  Depends on which part of me you're asking. Because if you're asking the part of me that likes to take the zoomed out approach, that's tapped in the source and is seeing the bigger picture, what led me to that would be, you know, a divine soul contract that I signed up for and something that I chose to go through as a part of my journey. If you're asking me that's like down here on earth, really experiencing it, just untreated alcoholism, untreated drug addiction, untreated mental illness. It goes on for long.

• 31:34Jay Shetty?

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• 32:17Jay Shetty?

  That's indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. This episode is brought to you by Wayfair. Home should be a place that feels like a sanctuary, a space that truly reflects who you are. But it can be challenging to balance style, budget, and endless options. I was looking to create a dedicated calm space for my morning meditation and reading, but I was struggling to find pieces that felt grounding but could also stand up to daily use. I went on Wayfair and found a beautiful, solid wood accent chair and a bookshelf. Now that corner is my favorite place to anchor my day. The quality is incredible, it's built to last, and it completely shifted the energy of the room.

• 32:59Jay Shetty?

  Plus, you can shop with Wayfair Verified, where product specialists carefully vet items for quality and functionality, so you can shop with more confidence. And if putting it all together sounds like a headache, Wayfair can handle delivery, installation, and assembly. Join Wayfair Rewards today to get 5% back on every purchase and start saving on your next home upgrade. Head to wayfair.com to shop all things home. That's W A Y F A I R dot com. Wayfair, every style, every home. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. We talk a lot about intentional decision making, and that extends to the practical stuff too, like making sure your coverage actually works for your life. State Farm is there to meet you where you are,

• 33:43Jay Shetty?

  and they know how sweet it is to feel good about your decisions. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with a personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state. This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. If you're talking about quality food, you can't forget Whole Foods Market, who've been holding themselves to the highest standards since they opened in 1980. That means you'll see thousands of organic products across their stores, from the produce department to the aisles. It also means you'll never see certain ingredients.

• 34:28Jay Shetty?

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• 34:38Speaker 01

  Enough, it becomes unbearable.

• 34:40Jay Shetty?

  I appreciate the parts because I think we all have multiple viewpoints and stories of why we end up where we have. And you're so right that there's, there's the version of you, like you said, zoomed out, that can see the bigger picture, that can see the journey you've been on, that can see that that was a choice for growth and transformation, i.e. not wanting to take anyone's experience away. And then, of course, there's the reality of it. What was the point that you were like, I can't keep living like this? Like, I can't keep doing this to myself?

• 35:06Speaker 01

  There were many that led to the attempts. But when I got sober, it was, I had like a month off, a month and a half off of heroin. I'd like detoxed at home. I knew someone that had, you know, Suboxone, and so we were going to take the strips and we were going to detox on our own. But I didn't realize I was on Fentanyl, so I took it too early, precipitated withdrawals. Like, you know, Fetty's got legs. So it was very much, I was like, okay, well, let me just see if I can get through this without subs, because then I'm going to have to taper off the subs, let's just cold turkey this. But it wasn't cold turkey because I was still drinking a lot. I was doing, you know, coke and I was smoking a lot of weed. And after about a month of not sleeping, because that's what happens,

• 35:51Speaker 01

  I was maybe getting an hour or two at night, maybe three if I'm lucky. And I had a suicide attempt that didn't work, which, I don't know the science of it. You know, I could be wrong, but I don't think as someone that had a tolerance whatsoever for benzos at the time, having taken an entire bottle, mixed with an entire bottle of vodka, I feel like that should have worked. And so when I just woke up hours later, and I was like, fuck. That was one of the first attempts where I'm like, fuck, it didn't work. Because a lot of people are like relieved when it doesn't, didn't work, or they feel regret the second they, you know, attempt it. I was so upset when it didn't work. And then a few weeks later, I had like a proper bottom with alcohol where it was just like,

• 36:36Speaker 01

  my behavior scared me into getting sober. And it was, for a long time, went back and forth between this place of I can't be here anymore. And, well, it's not my time, so I'm stuck here. And I can try all these methods, but they're still not going to work. And if that didn't work, then, you know, I would run through all these other ideas and I would see how it would go south, where it's like, oh, well, you know, I could try and hang myself, but then it's, you know, it's not going to work and I'm going to end up like, you know, kind of paralyzed. Or like, I would just think of all of these ideas and then how it would go wrong. And I'm like, I'm stuck here. Like, it's not my time, I'm not going to be allowed to leave unless it's my time. And so I have to wait it out. And I didn't know that there was this secret, very special third place of,

• 37:20Speaker 01

  this is great and we love being here. And, you know, the good or the bad, the light and the heavy, these are all things that are part of the experience. And I'm here to experience the entire spectrum. Like, I'm here for the whole enchilada, I want all the feelings. Because that's what I'm taking with me when I leave. You know, it's all the feelings, all the experiences.

• 37:43Jay Shetty?

  I feel like that requires a lot of bravery and courage to accept that.

• 37:46Speaker 01

  I don't know if I can take credit for that. I think it's, you know, it's something that happened through, you know, spiritual experiences, really.

• 37:53Jay Shetty?

  Were there any experiences that made that clear to you? Because I feel like sobriety, the journey to sobriety has so many ups and downs.

• 38:02Speaker 01

  There were so many. I had what's kind of called like an educational variety kind of spiritual awakening that is not like a boom, white light experience. Like, I didn't have this crazy fall out of bed, hear a booming voice, kind of, kind of an experience. It was something that happened slowly over a period of time. And I learned how to pray and I didn't know what I was talking to. But I think it was the, just the willingness to develop something. Over time, I started with prayer and meditation and just getting into these practices blind and just being like, well, you know, I'm out of, I'm out of ideas, let's try this. I started noticing more and more little coincidences that I couldn't explain,

• 38:45Speaker 01

  more and more synchronicities, more and more God shots, that eventually piled up into a mountain of evidence of like, there's got to be something, you know? And one of them was a really cool experience that I had. I think I had about three years sober at the time, or I was about to get three years sober. And I had heard someone say, I think it was like a friend of a friend, say like, oh, your, your higher power or God or whatever you believe in, the answer or the universe, the answer to your prayers is never no. It's always yes, not yet, or I have a better idea. At this point, I had almost three years sober. And, you know, I did a prayer and I had like this,

• 39:29Speaker 01

  it wasn't like my life flashed before my eyes, but it was all the times since getting sober that my higher power was like, I have a better idea for you. And it was very much like, okay, keep trusting the process because life is becoming more and more expansive.

• 39:44Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, your song Evermore is, I believe, inspired by that relationship with God and spirituality.

• 39:52Speaker 01

  And it's, you know, it sounds like a love song and I like being vague enough so that things can apply to everyone. But that is, that is very much a, a love letter to Source, you know, Great Spirit, God, whatever you want to call it, the thing that has a thousand names, the thing that is the unnameable thing, you know?

• 40:10Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, but you said you wrote it like a love song.

• 40:11Speaker 01

  Pretty much, yeah.

• 40:13Jay Shetty?

  I felt like I could hear it in like a 90s rom-com.

• 40:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's so corny and it's so like, oh, the sky is blue. And like, it's very, but that's sometimes how it feels. Like, you know, when I, when I really developed like a conscious contact with, with something that made me feel safe, it was the first time I'd ever truly felt safe. So it was like, oh, this guy is bluer.

• 40:35Jay Shetty?

  What did your prayer look like? What did it sound like?

• 40:38Speaker 01

  It's often changing and it depends on, on what it is. But typically, it's kind of just giving, giving it over, being like, well, my, my best thinking landed me in some pretty dark places and landed me in the gutter. So, so why don't you take the reins, whatever you are? And, you know, I'll, I'll tap in right before a show, right before I, you know, and it's more like, please help me set aside all these things. Help me set aside like my need to feel pretty or funny or talented or all these like insecure, help me set aside my insecurities. Help me set aside my, you know, these things that I see as needs. And, you know, just use me as your instrument as I use my instruments, you know? If I'm here for a reason and if you gave me these songs for a reason, help me just play them.

• 41:23Jay Shetty?

  How do you make sense of this idea of handing it over, but then still? Taking action and responsibility. Talk to me about that balance between surrender and sincere action or.

• 41:35Speaker 01

  I think a lot of it has to do with putting in the work and staying out of the results. I think that's a big thing and not trying to control outcomes. Cause I think control can be a tricky slippery slope. You know, I, I've been recently trying out different things, trying out, you know, more tools of like exploring similarities between like Christ consciousness and Nirvana, also looking into the Tao a little bit. And I really like the, uh, have the patience to wait until the mud settles and the water is clear to make decisions. And so it's kind of like, okay, let me take a step back, give it 24 hours or give it however much time, really tap in, check in with myself, does this feel icky, does this feel clean, does this feel good?

• 42:19Speaker 01

  You know, and then I also have people that I can counsel with. I have, you know, guides, I have friends, I have people that I can kind of lean on and be like, I feel like this is where my intuition is telling me to go. And if someone's like, that's a bad idea, then, then for sure, we're gonna take that into consideration and add that to the pot of things that we know. But a lot of it has had to do with learning how to be in right relationship with myself. And, um, just waiting for the right indicated action to, to arise, I guess.

• 42:45Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I feel like it's a constant dance.

• 42:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:47Jay Shetty?

  It's a constant dance to, to do that. And I'm guessing that, you know, talking about relationships, I was thinking about in your song Stitched, there's a lyric that I liked. You said, how your soul was stitched into mine with your heart eating into mine. Talk to me about this lyric because fascinated by, we're talking about godly relationships.

• 43:06Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 43:07Jay Shetty?

  Spiritual relationships, but then we have relationships on the planet. Talk to me about that specific lyric.

• 43:12Speaker 01

  I believe in multiple soulmates. I believe that, you know, a soulmate is not necessarily someone that you are in a romantic intimate relationship with. I think, you know, parents can be soulmates, I think siblings can be soulmates. I think, you know, your arch nemesis in this lifetime is a soulmate because that is a great lesson of yours. That maybe that arch nemesis was your mother in another life, maybe it was your father in another life, maybe it was your husband in another life. Like that, that's just my belief and I know it's wacky, but that's just, you know, what feels right and makes sense to me. And this song was, was written about someone that I, I felt like we had experienced every type of human relationship you could have in all of our other lifetimes prior to this one.

• 43:54Speaker 01

  And so it was a very deeply rooted one and it was, um, it was not that I love this person more than other loves, but it was different. It was very one of a kind and it did feel kind of like a, a just stitching, which, you know, when not cared for the right way can become very codependent, can be, you know, especially ours was a drug fueled relationship. And, um, yeah, I definitely felt like his heart ate mine.

• 44:18Jay Shetty?

  I was going to ask you that, what's the difference between a relationship when you're sober versus when you're drug related?

• 44:25Speaker 01

  Oh, I mean, well, that depends if we're talking about emotionally sober or simply physically sober. Because I definitely got into relationships when I was physically sober and didn't really have emotional sobriety. And that can become a consuming relationship in itself, where the person becomes the drug. That's not healthy either. Experiencing a emotionally sober relationship, again, has to do with being in right relationship with myself and has to do with being intentional with everything I do and being incredibly honest with myself. And incredibly honest and transparent with people around me.

• 44:57Jay Shetty?

  I love how you just define the difference between physically sober and emotionally sober.

• 45:02Speaker 01

  Big difference, you know, I, I know, you know, there's some people that will claim to be sober and then they're getting in fistfights with their roommate. And it's like, it's awesome that you're not on drugs, man.

• 45:11Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 45:12Speaker 01

  That's good, good for you.

• 45:13Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. What surprised you most about sobriety?

• 45:16Speaker 01

  All of it. And, um, I said this when I, when I got five years sober that I, which was like a year and a half ago. Like, I can't believe I almost missed it all because my life has, has become so much more opened up. You know, I have more trust and more intimacy and more closeness with the people in my life. And people rely on me, people can rely on me and that's really special.

• 45:40Jay Shetty?

  Was there a time when you felt like you really let people down?

• 45:42Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, I mean, yeah. I feel like that might be the universal experience for people in active addiction.

• 45:50Jay Shetty?

  Was there anyone that you felt like you really let down?

• 45:52Speaker 01

  My younger self.

• 45:56Speaker 01

  More than anyone.

• 46:02Speaker 01

  Oh, fuck, it's a good question.

• 46:07Speaker 01

  I've done a lot of, um,

• 46:11Speaker 01

  so much therapy. I, I went into a really deep depression around three years sober and, uh, tried all the things, like the conveyor belt of medication.

• 46:23Speaker 01

  Probably over a dozen, I think, the SSRIs, the MRIs, like all of them. And, you know, within a span of 18 months, went to five different institutions, you know, Hoffman, Onsite, The Glass House, uh, twice. Um, you know, ended up checking back into my, uh, rehab that I got sober at. I was like, do you guys have a bed? They were like, we have your old room. And I was like, great, I'm going right now, I'll be there in 20 minutes. And I've done a lot of, of inner child work. I've done a lot of inner teen work because those two girls are very different. They want different things, uh, they have very different approaches to life.

• 47:02Speaker 01

  It wasn't until kind of this last year, I've really learned how to listen, differentiate between which part of me is speaking, hear what the need is, and then learn how to meet it myself. Which in the past would be, you know, if it was little, little P grasping for someone to fix this, ease this, you know, fill this, uh, hole, right, uh, void. And then, you know, teen P was very much like, everybody get away from me, don't touch me. You know, so it's, uh, learning how to listen and be like, okay, what's, what's the need? Okay, she wants space and doesn't want to be touched. Okay, why don't we go take 10 minutes?

• 47:45Speaker 01

  Let's communicate, we're gonna take 10 minutes, we're gonna take a breath, we're gonna tap into whatever, maybe smoke a, maybe give her a cigarette. And, uh, meet the need ourselves, you know? You ask about healthy relationships and, and sobriety and that, that's been, uh, one of the biggest things. It's allowed me to start having that and also learning how to have uncomfortable conversations, learning how to step out of the discomfort, say the hard thing, say the honest thing, um, state the need. And, uh, it's done nothing but foster more intimacy and trust in all my relationships.

• 48:23Jay Shetty?

  What was it like to heal that relationship for your younger self and with your younger self?

• 48:28Speaker 01

  I think it's an ongoing process. I don't know that it's healed. It's more healed than it ever has been and it's, it's an ongoing process. There's something really profound in being able to say like, I got you.

• 48:45Speaker 01

  We got out of that mess, we got out, I got you.

• 48:50Speaker 01

  And I'm sorry.

• 48:52Jay Shetty?

  Does it feel good to give yourself that forgiveness as well though? Because it's almost like you're saying sorry, but you're also doing the forgiving.

• 48:59Speaker 01

  It's more grace than anything and I don't think it comes from me. It's more grace than forgiveness.

• 49:05Jay Shetty?

  I feel like when I spent my three years as a monk, I did a lot of healing work. I did that from age 22 to 25.

• 49:10Speaker 01

  Amazing.

• 49:11Jay Shetty?

  Thirty eight now and, uh, two years ago I went through something and I started to do therapy more in order to kind of look under the hood.

• 49:19Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 49:19Jay Shetty?

  Proactively to be like, what have I missed? Like what work have I not done? Talking about this idea of that you're never healed and you're always doing the work. And then something happened in the last 12 months and I was like, I was looking for this and I couldn't find it.

• 49:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:33Jay Shetty?

  And I had to go through something in order for it to be uncovered.

• 49:37Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 49:37Jay Shetty?

  And so it was just this fascinating thing of like, I thought I'd worked through this pattern. And I thought I'd looked through every nook and cranny and every crevice and every little thing. And I thought I'd been to every corner and figured it out. And then something happened and I was like, oh gosh, I missed it. And it was like this really fascinating experience of proactively looking under the hood, thinking I would be able to avoid something in the future, only to realize that it doesn't work that way.

• 50:04Speaker 01

  You know the idea of the wheel?

• 50:05Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 50:06Speaker 01

  The spiral, really?

• 50:07Jay Shetty?

  Please explain.

• 50:08Speaker 01

  Well, it's, it's, yeah, for, for those at home watching, um, it's this idea where sometimes we think we're going around in circles. It's like, oh, it's this again. And it is, but it's different each time. And the idea is the more we go through it, the more we learn and it's instead of a circle, it's more like a spiral. I know about looking under the hood and I know about lifting every little tchotchke instead of no, leaving no stone unturned. And something that happened last year was I kind of just kind of hit this wall with therapy where I'm just like, I'm just gonna take a break from therapy. Because I've been doing so much for so long. Recently I started seeing a, a behavioral specialist for my OCD because that's been like the main thing that I feel really needs to be looked at. I have, you know, thank God permission with depression, you know, one day at a time and, and my sobriety.

• 50:52Speaker 01

  So I do things daily to keep my, to maintain my sobriety. But, um, yeah, I'd reached this point in, in my therapy where I'd kind of just plateaued because I, I'd looked under every stone. And, you know, I kind of envisioned it as like a, like a trailer of like music gear, like we've got all this. And I've just looked on, there's not a single piece of dust on anything in there because I've looked at all of it. Now I want to learn how to just unhitch the fucking trailer. How do I, you know, that's what I want to learn. And, and I've also found that there's a lot of stuff that. You know, was born through experience, so it needs to be healed through experience. And that's a really beautiful gift that relationships offer us. Because if I have like attachment stuff, I have issues with attachment.

• 51:36Speaker 01

  That's talking about it's not going to really do anything. Actually, similar with with with addiction stuff, just talking about it with a therapist isn't going to do anything. I need to take action. There needs to be some kind of experiential process for healing to occur.

• 51:50Jay Shetty?

  This episode is brought to you by Walden University. Balancing work, life and big goals isn't easy. That's why Walden University helps working professionals get the W with tempo learning. So you can earn your degree at your own pace while gaining practical skills through real life scenarios. You'll also learn from faculty with real world experience and have support start to finish. Walden University, set a course for change. Ready to start? Visit walden.edu today. Certified to operate by SHIRV. Tempo Learning, available in select programs. What were those actions and experiences that you feel started to unravel some of that healing? Or the ones that you practice now?

• 52:35Speaker 01

  I'm constantly picking up and putting back down or swapping out my spiritual toolkit. That's the biggest thing. Therapy has been an incredible tool. I feel like I've taken bits and pieces from all of these institutions that I've been to. Because like I said, I went to five different institutions with five years sober. Like I had five years where I checked back into places because I'm like this, I'm not okay. You know, and and it's actually that time was what inspired the album cover. Because I actually did do ECT.

• 53:05Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I was about to.

• 53:06Speaker 01

  And I feel like there is something that I got from each experience. Because again, my belief is that everything happens for a reason. And it's not that those things didn't work. It's that I'm taking what I can and taking what works and kind of leaving the rest from each experience and from each modality. And from each, you know, there's certain things that it's just a very simple tool. Hand on heart, like which which shocker on my hands on? And how are we going to breathe like? Oh, let's practice being gentle with myself. You know, that kind of, that's just a very simple tool that has carried me through a lot.

• 53:48Jay Shetty?

  The ECT therapy was because of a particular suicide attempt? Is that right? Or?

• 53:54Speaker 01

  It wasn't an attempt. It was, I got very close. I got very, very close, like, like centimeters away. And it was after I had felt like I had tried everything. And it was, I mean, like I said, the conveyor belt of medication, five different institutions. CBT, DBT, EMDR, I had done somatic, I had done experiential, I talked to the empty chair, I'd held the pillow. I had beaten the things with bats while screaming. Like I had done so many things. TMS did help a little bit with with OCD, but it had no effect on my depression. The stellate ganglion block was a very, do you know what that is? The, it's like a shot of lidocaine into a collection of nerves in your neck.

• 54:36Speaker 01

  And it's supposed to help with PTSD and kind of reset your nervous system. I got like relief for a week. And then I went back into the other side and got another week. And, you know, Hoffman gave me probably the longest stint of relief was I had like a couple of months after Hoffman where I was really happy. And that was amazing. And something that I've learned with with all things is integration is the number one thing. If I'm not integrating the things that I learned from these places and these experiences, I'm going to resort back to how I was feeling before. So without integration, yeah, I kept, you know, just getting worse and worse and worse. And once TMS didn't work, my psychiatrist was like, he was like, it's not as barbaric as it used to be.

• 55:19Speaker 01

  They use general anesthetic, you're knocked out when they when they shock you, you know?

• 55:22Jay Shetty?

  For anyone who doesn't know what ECT is, can you explain what the experience is and how it's meant to heal?

• 55:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, you go in and I have a lot of metal. So I had to replace all of the metal in my face and, you know, with plastic earrings and and yeah, you go in, you got your hospital gown. They knock you out, strap you down, put a bike guard in your mouth, electrocute you. It helps with the neuroplasticity in your brain. If I'm not mistaken, it still is the leading most effective form of depression treatment. I did nine sessions in three weeks.

• 56:01Jay Shetty?

  Is it painful? Or you're not feeling anything?

• 56:03Speaker 01

  Uh, the first couple of times it is because they're still figuring out how much, you know, Tylenol or Toretol to give you afterwards. You know, I'm very anal about like if I'm going to be going under, what are you giving me? What are you not? You know, I've had experiences where, you know, they gave me something that felt too good. And it's like, okay, let's, you know, daily maintenance, keep the sobriety going, you know? So I definitely ask multiple, multiple, multiple times and I have I have OCD, so it tells me to. But yeah, I mean, the the first time I woke up and it was it was the most sharp pain I'd ever experienced in the side of my head. Like it was.

• 56:38Jay Shetty?

  And what is that pain? What do they tell you that is?

• 56:41Speaker 01

  Well, I have been to soreness from getting electrocuted.

• 56:44Jay Shetty?

  I mean, that sounds so scary.

• 56:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, and the side effects are gnarly. I mean, I definitely had days completely not in my head at all. I'd have, you know, friends visit me and I don't remember even seeing them. I don't remember them coming by. I have evidence that a friend came by because she brought me a bag of vapes. This was before I quit vaping. But I don't remember her being here at all. I don't remember the conversations we had, you know? Amnesia was one of the primary side effects of that.

• 57:13Jay Shetty?

  Was there no part of you that was scared or you just felt that was the last resort?

• 57:16Speaker 01

  I'm very much a lead with the chin kind of person. And so, yes, there's some fear. The biggest fear is what if this doesn't work? There was definitely a point where I had to, I just had to stop because, you know, I was responding to the treatments and it was working. But then there was a discussion of like, well, you're either going to be on these two medications for the rest of your life or you're going to have to come back once a month and continue getting shocked for the rest of your life. And I'm like, that's not going to fucking work for me. And I think, yeah, little bits and pieces of everything that I'd gotten along the way over those courses, those last two and a half years, taking everything I possibly could and just completely flipping my life on its ass and being like, how do I do this in a way that is that is sustainable? And a lot of it had to do with holistic health.

• 57:58Speaker 01

  You know, I do believe that a lot of Western medicine is educated in disease and not health. The disease is the focus. And so I'm like, how do I go, you know, the other way? And so it's a lot of, to get my sleep in order was a lot of saffron and two kiwis before bed at night. Like that completely changed my sleep. Somatic exercising, Pilates, like finding the hardest gym in LA and being like, I'm going to do two sessions in a row, three times a week, which I am a bit of an over, I overdo it sometimes. Rock climbing as much as possible because that is incredible for my body, incredible for my core. Really being right with my body, it's meditative, it's a puzzle that I can figure out.

• 58:40Speaker 01

  It's highly rewarding, it's highly confidence boosting, it's highly humbling.

• 58:45Jay Shetty?

  Eating outdoors or indoors?

• 58:46Speaker 01

  Both, that's what I mean about humbling. So going from a top rope climber, yeah, I'm a 5'11" b climber, that's pretty fucking good, to like lead and then having to like losing a grade and having to build myself back up, switching to lead and then going outdoors and being like, oh, I'm not a 5'11" b climber at all. I'm like a 5'7". That is very humbling and also so rewarding. That's been a huge part of of my life, of picking up new spiritual tools. My animals are a huge part of my nervous system getting regulated. Figuring out, you know, which CP-TSD symptoms are the most prominent? How do I work with those things?

• 59:24Speaker 01

  I'm very big fan of energy work, acupuncture, traditional Chinese medicine, like just all the things that are health oriented as opposed to, oh, well, this is a disease, let's treat the symptoms. I quit vaping over a year ago. I did start rolling cigarettes again a few months ago. Quit caffeine for like six months, which really helped the sleep. Processed sugar was a big thing. And like, I still love sweets.

• 59:52Jay Shetty?

  You have a sweet tooth?

• 59:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I mean, I will, I will go to Arowan and I'll get a chocolate cake. But I get it from there because, you know, they're not going to be using, they're using all organic products. So every now and then, yeah, okay, I'll do something, have a sweet tooth, it's really bad. But where am I getting it from and what's in it is a huge, huge thing.

• 1:00:09Jay Shetty?

  I've used sugar as a drug for far too long.

• 1:00:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I mean, it's eight times more addictive than cocaine.

• 1:00:14Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:14Speaker 01

  And I think they did scans on like what happens when you take like a narcotic and how it lights up one piece of your brain and then sugar lighting up the entire brain is.

• 1:00:26Speaker 01

  It's pretty, pretty shocking. I was really surprised when, when I saw that. And then also part of me was not surprised at all. And it's in everything.

• 1:00:34Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I've definitely, over the years, until I developed a healthier relationship with sugar. Now I don't do any refined sugars like six days a week. But I was using it as a drug easily.

• 1:00:45Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:00:45Jay Shetty?

  It sounds crazy to say that because people are like, what do you mean by that? I'm like, well, no, I'm using it to sedate, numb, get through something difficult, relax your emotions, whatever else it may be.

• 1:00:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:55Jay Shetty?

  And just because it's legal doesn't mean it's, you know.

• 1:00:59Speaker 01

  There's a lot of things right now that are legal that maybe shouldn't be.

• 1:01:02Jay Shetty?

  How long have you been writing this album for now?

• 1:01:04Speaker 01

  I wrote a good portion of it during the, during the depressive spell. Some of it was being recorded right before I went into ECT. So I had the idea for the cover like a year and a half ago. It was a long process. And then some of the stuff like got rerecorded this year. And Stitch was, was written within a span of, you know, sixty minutes, fifty nine minutes, while the new vocals on Maker were being comped. And it was very much like, oh, let's try and squeeze this on the album last minute. And we did, and we got it mixed in time. So yeah, there's, there's a, some of the songs are two years old. Some of them are a few months old.

• 1:01:43Jay Shetty?

  What was the most recent suicide attempt you had?

• 1:01:46Speaker 01

  The most recent attempt was right before I got sober.

• 1:01:48Jay Shetty?

  Right.

• 1:01:49Speaker 01

  But I, I did get very close to actually going for it, right before ECT.

• 1:01:56Jay Shetty?

  Which was about a year and a half ago.

• 1:01:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, somewhere around then.

• 1:01:59Jay Shetty?

  Was that scary to be back there once you're sober?

• 1:02:02Speaker 01

  It was scarier for the people around me.

• 1:02:04Jay Shetty?

  Because?

• 1:02:04Speaker 01

  It's a familiar place for me. But it's, I mean, it's scary for, for the people around me. And I have spoken to the, to the people that were closest to me and, and, you know, saw me the day that I almost did it. And, and I definitely feel like I, there's trauma there. And it's been a long, but very rewarding journey getting to, to where I'm at now. And also with an understanding that that may happen. Again, there's no predicting, you know, it's, it's, everything's temporary. Nothing lasts forever. I think happiness is temporary. I think pain is temporary. I think all like sadness is temporary. And so knowing that I may get sad again, and I may go through a dark time again.

• 1:02:46Speaker 01

  Hopefully we'll be bringing the information with me this time of there is a way out. You've done it before, you will do it again, which I didn't have with me the last time, really. Like I had experienced depression for a lot of my life, but it hadn't gotten that bad before. So I do have this kind of new found understanding of kind of how to get through it. And again, there's this piece of me where it's just like, bring it on. If I gotta go through it again, I'll go through it again because it's, it's gonna help someone.

• 1:03:18Jay Shetty?

  So the familiarity is actually helpful now.

• 1:03:20Speaker 01

  Almost, yeah.

• 1:03:21Jay Shetty?

  I've been here before.

• 1:03:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:23Jay Shetty?

  I know I can get out of it.

• 1:03:24Speaker 01

  I know what to do.

• 1:03:25Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I know what to do. I know what my resources are, my spiritual toolkit, my friends, my support system. It's almost like when we do hard things in life and everyone's done hard things. Everyone who's alive and living today has done hard things.

• 1:03:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:38Jay Shetty?

  We just don't see them as hard. We just see them as our life.

• 1:03:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:41Jay Shetty?

  And so we just think we've lived. And it's really helpful when you can actually look at your life and realize, I can do hard things and I've done hard things.

• 1:03:50Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:03:51Jay Shetty?

  And remember those when new hard moments come around. Because you actually feel a sense of empowerment to think I've lived through this before. And I think a lot of us don't give ourselves enough grace, as you said, and give ourselves enough credit. Because we just think, oh, that's my life. It wasn't that hard. It was okay.

• 1:04:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:06Jay Shetty?

  But recognizing those moments gives us so much more fuel to push forward in tough times.

• 1:04:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:12Jay Shetty?

  What's giving you fuel and empowerment today? What's like, what's propelling you forward? Especially now that you're on tour. The album's coming out like.

• 1:04:24Speaker 01

  A lot of it is, is all these things that I've been doing almost daily to

• 1:04:32Speaker 01

  maintain my happiness and maintain, you know, being very intentional with everything is so rewarding that those rewards are just like, oh, this is, I mean, just keep going. But then obviously like the music is, is so rewarding. I'm on tour right now. Part, part of it is a, you know, very small headlining tour. And then the other part is I'm, you know, playing support for The Pretty Reckless, which is a band I listened to in high school. And I, I'm also, you know, playing songs from this album that I made for the version of me that was in high school that would have liked this stuff, you know, like she was very, she loves the Smashing Pumpkins, and she loved Nirvana, and she loves, you know, this very nineties kind of thing. And I'm like, here's, you know, I got to make this album for her and anyone else that felt that way

• 1:05:15Speaker 01

  when they were that age or even now. And it, it, there's something very nostalgic about it all. And I mean, you use that word. That's one of my favorite things, even like my.

• 1:05:23Jay Shetty?

  I didn't even know that.

• 1:05:24Speaker 01

  Photography is a hobby of mine and, you know, every photographer kind of has their own thing. My best friend is a phenomenal photographer. She shot the album cover art. She shot all my promo. She shot the inside slip for the vinyl. And her primary thing is more like liminal space, kind of like backrooms. My thing is more like nostalgia. And that's just what feels good sonically, what looks good visually, what just kind of resonates the most with me.

• 1:05:49Jay Shetty?

  Why was it so important to have ECT on the front cover of the album?

• 1:05:53Speaker 01

  Shock value.

• 1:05:55Speaker 01

  Literally.

• 1:05:56Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. I don't know why I said, I mean, it felt nostalgic when I listened to it. And it was just, I was like, I'm glad I shared that with you because yeah, just, it was my initial, it was my immediate experience of it.

• 1:06:06Speaker 01

  Yay.

• 1:06:06Jay Shetty?

  Paris, it's been such a, it's been really refreshing talking to you. I feel like I can tell that you're in the work.

• 1:06:14Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:06:15Jay Shetty?

  And that's like really beautiful. It's such an endearing thing when someone's able to talk about the work when they're in the work as opposed to a before and after, which is what we kind of try and present as a Western standpoint of the work. I always feel, as you said, that the work is cyclical and ascending and not.

• 1:06:34Speaker 01

  It never stops. It never stops.

• 1:06:36Jay Shetty?

  And so when I'm hearing you talk today, I feel like you've like taken us into a moment when the work is still churning and you're still processing. And I find that to be a true act of courage and vulnerability because it's easier to be on the other side, so to speak, even though it doesn't really exist. And be like, this is what I went through and this is what I've learned. And it can sound kind of romantic and poetic, but it doesn't necessarily always feel true.

• 1:07:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and also, I mean, it's like, did I get out on the other side of what that was?

• 1:07:10Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 1:07:11Speaker 01

  Yes. And in order to stay there, I have to daily implement things. I mean, it's the same thing with, with, with addiction. It's kind of like this idea of daily reprieve and not reprieve in the sense of relief, but reprieve in the sense of like the postponing of one's execution date of like daily. One day at a time, I am doing the things that I know keep me good. Whether that is my mental health, whether that is my drug addiction, whether that is, you know, being a good friend, being a good family member, being a good sister. What are the things that I can do daily that are gonna keep me good?

• 1:07:47Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:48Speaker 01

  And I could say, yeah, I made it on the other end. I can like chill out now. And then I might go backwards, you know? Cruising is, in physics, it doesn't work. It means you're going downhill.

• 1:07:59Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you're either growing or dying. Yeah.

• 1:08:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:02Jay Shetty?

  What's the one thing you'd like people to know about addiction?

• 1:08:04Speaker 01

  On a human level?

• 1:08:07Speaker 01

  If you don't share my beliefs as far as like, oh, yeah, we come down, we incarnate, we've, we've chosen these things. I chose my name. I chose my parents. I chose my traumas. I chose my zodiac sign, whatever. If that belief doesn't align with you, then I would say, you know, that's not something people choose. On a, on a human level.

• 1:08:27Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:27Speaker 01

  Like my soul chose this thing, but I didn't wake up one day and be like, I'm gonna be a drug addict. And a lot of the things that, you know, may not be the drug addict's fault at some point. It is, it is that drug addict's responsibility to clean up their mess, clean up their side of the street and, you know, make amends.

• 1:08:44Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, but it's not their fault.

• 1:08:45Speaker 01

  It's kind of like a, a tornado kind of tearing through a town. When the tornado finally stops, it's like you're going outside and be like, oh, well, I don't see, I don't see. You're looking at all the calamity and you're like, well, I don't see any problems here. You know, it's kind of like.

• 1:09:02Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:02Speaker 01

  Clean it up. At some point, there has to be, you know, responsibility taken. But faults, I don't know. I don't know about that part.

• 1:09:10Jay Shetty?

  And what's the one thing you'd like people to know about sobriety? That they might miss?

• 1:09:15Speaker 01

  Both sobriety and healing are not linear. And it's a day at a time.

• 1:09:20Jay Shetty?

  Paris, is there anything I haven't asked you that you wish I did?

• 1:09:23Speaker 01

  No, but I want to say thank you for being so respectful and safe. And this has been a really special container. So thank you for facilitating that.

• 1:09:34Jay Shetty?

  Of course. Thank you. We end every episode of On Purpose with a final five.

• 1:09:40Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:09:40Jay Shetty?

  These questions have to be answered in one sentence maximum.

• 1:09:44Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:09:44Jay Shetty?

  I'll probably get you to break it, but I try, I try. I start there and then I get too curious.

• 1:09:49Speaker 01

  Full send.

• 1:09:50Jay Shetty?

  So Paris Jackson, these are your final five. The first question is, what is the best advice you've ever heard or received?

• 1:09:57Speaker 01

  If there's gonna be criticism and misunderstanding,

• 1:10:02Speaker 01

  regardless of what you do and what you say and how you are, then you might as well do what makes you happy. As long as you're not causing harm.

• 1:10:09Jay Shetty?

  Great answer. Question number two, what's the worst advice you've ever heard or received?

• 1:10:13Speaker 01

  Don't trust anyone.

• 1:10:15Jay Shetty?

  Don't trust anyone?

• 1:10:16Speaker 01

  That's the worst advice I've ever gotten.

• 1:10:18Jay Shetty?

  Because?

• 1:10:19Speaker 01

  Some of the most beautiful life experiences have come from trust. Because trust fosters safety and intimacy, and intimacy and safety fosters healing.

• 1:10:30Jay Shetty?

  I love that. Can't agree with you more. Such a need. Question number three, how do you decide to trust someone?

• 1:10:37Speaker 01

  Timing consistency.

• 1:10:39Jay Shetty?

  It's the only way.

• 1:10:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. I'm gonna listen to your intuition too.

• 1:10:43Jay Shetty?

  Question number four, tell me your most spiritual belief and your most skeptical belief. Or take one belief and debate them on both sides.

• 1:10:51Speaker 01

  My most spiritual belief, everything can be spiritual. The deepest, most painful, I said this early, the most painful moments of suffering in my life have been alchemized and once alchemized, become medicine. That's spiritual. That is a spiritual experience. It hurts. And it's that heavy, hard to mulch energy, but it, it becomes magic, you know? And my least.

• 1:11:20Jay Shetty?

  You're my skeptical author.

• 1:11:22Speaker 01

  Who's to say?

• 1:11:24Jay Shetty?

  Fifth and final question, Paris, we ask this to every guest who's ever been on the show. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?

• 1:11:32Speaker 01

  Okay, I have three of these.

• 1:11:33Jay Shetty?

  Oh, wow. Okay.

• 1:11:34Speaker 01

  Can I share all three?

• 1:11:35Jay Shetty?

  People usually struggle with it. Yeah.

• 1:11:36Speaker 01

  Can I share all three?

• 1:11:37Jay Shetty?

  I love all three.

• 1:11:37Speaker 01

  The first one is if you want to be a parent, a parent, you have to apply for a license.

• 1:11:41Jay Shetty?

  That is a brilliant law. I love that one.

• 1:11:43Speaker 01

  Hot take.

• 1:11:43Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:44Speaker 01

  Second one is I, I want there to be more regulation on the poison they're spraying on organic produce. And the third one is I want to match the laws that there are in other countries. There's other countries that some of the chemicals we put in our food are banned in other countries. I'm trying to match that. And I have a bunch of opinions on the school system, on the justice system, on, you know, rehabilitation. I have so many views on that. That's.

• 1:12:11Jay Shetty?

  That's a different episode.

• 1:12:12Speaker 01

  That's, I will go for another hour, but yeah.

• 1:12:15Jay Shetty?

  Those are three of the best laws we've ever had. Now, anytime ever, anyone ever asked like, what did anyone else say? I'll just name all three of yours.

• 1:12:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:21Jay Shetty?

  Those are brilliant. Paris Jackson, I'm so excited for you. I'm excited for everyone to listen to the happiest day of my life. Hope it gives them that nostalgic, cathartic, healing feeling. Thank you for the trust. Thank you for joining me on my platform today and giving my audience an opportunity to hear about your story and your own words. And I hope this is the first of many interactions we get to have. So thank you so much.

• 1:12:42Speaker 01

  Thank you, Jay.

• 1:12:42Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, thank you.

• 1:12:44Speaker 02

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• 1:13:13Speaker 03

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• 1:13:17Speaker 04

  On October 2nd.

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  Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heap the blame on me.

• 1:13:23Speaker 04

  Tom Cruise is. Digger got us into this mess, and Digger's gonna dig us up. From the director of Birdman and The Revenant.

• 1:13:30Speaker 05

  What would happen if I stopped drilling? You stop, you freeze to death, that's what.

• 1:13:34Speaker 04

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 1:13:38Speaker 05

  I'm not the first then.

• 1:13:39Speaker 04

  Digger. See the trailer online. Only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R. Under 17. Under 17 out of 10 without parent.