Glorified Trailers and She-E-O's with George Civeris

George Civeris joined us for a story about a starry-eyed idealist, a “good cause,” and some big egos. We are now on YouTube. Be sure to follow us on there at @DefectorMedia https://www.youtube.com/@DefectorMedia where you can watch today’s episode. Subscribe to our newsletter for writing from Rachelle, Se'era, Jae, Alex, and Kelsey, plus blog recommendations and secrets! https://defector.com/normal-gossip-podcast You can support Normal Gossip directly by buying merch https://defectorstore.com/collections/normal-gossip or becoming a Friend or a Friend-of-Friend at supportnormalgossip.com https://defector.com/products/normalgossip. You can also find all kinds of info about us and how to submit gossip on our Komi page:https://normalgossip.komi.io/ Episode transcript here https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XRUVSFS9GPOIRdWmjt-7MN1YgsY22C4RbEcf8e4Oiys/edit?usp=sharing. Follow the show on Instagram @normalgossip https://www.instagram.com/normalgossip/, and if you have gossip, email us at [email protected] or leave us a voicemail at 26-79-GOSSIP. Normal Gossip is hosted by Rachelle Hampton (@heyydnae https://www.instagram.com/heyydnae/?hl=en) and produced by Se'era Spragley Ricks (@seera_sharae https://www.instagram.com/seera_sharae/?hl=en) and Jae Towle Vieira (@jaetowlevieira https://instagram.com/jaetowlevieira?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==). Our audio engineer is Samantha Gattsek. Justin Ellis is Defector's projects editor. Show art by Tara Jacoby. Theme music composed by Hrishikesh Hirway. Normal Gossip is a proud member ofRadiotopia https://www.radiotopia.fm/. Learn about your ad choices: dovetail.prx.org/ad-choices https://dovetail.prx.org/ad-choices

• 0:01Speaker 00

  Hey there. It's Robyn from PRX. If you're a longtime listener of Radiotopia, you may know that we had a podcast that ran from 2016 to 2020 discussing every episode of the show The West Wing. Well, I'm excited to tell you The West Wing Weekly is back. Joshua Molina, who starred on The West Wing as Will Bailey, and Rishikesh Hirway, creator and host of Song Exploder, have reunited to discuss the hit Netflix political thriller, The Diplomat. Just as they did in their original run, they're discussing each episode of the series in sequence, joined by special guests from the show and from the real world of diplomacy. Rishi and Josh will be wrapping up the first season with a special live taping at Union Chapel in London on November 14th. Subscribe now to The West Wing Weekly wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:50Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 0:51Speaker 00

  Oh, my God.

• 0:51Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. What? Oh, my God.

• 0:53Speaker 00

  Oh, my God.

• 0:54Speaker 01

  Oh, wow. Oh, my God.

• 0:55Speaker 00

  Oh, my God.

• 0:56Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. What? Oh, my gosh.

• 0:59Speaker 00

  What?

• 0:59Speaker 02

  Hello and welcome back to season 10 of Normal Gossip. I'm your host, Rachel Hampton, and in each episode of this podcast, we are going to bring you an anonymous morsel of gossip from the real world. Today, we're welcoming someone new to the show. George Severus is here. George Severus is a comedian, writer, and co-host of the Stradio Lab Podcast with Sam Taggart. His stand-up has appeared on Comedy Central, and he was selected as a new face of comedy at the Just for Laughs Festival. His debut comedy special, A Sense of Urgency, is out now. George was going to join us for one of the last episodes of season nine, but as y'all know all too well, we had to change plans at the last minute.

• 1:40Speaker 02

  But today, we get to hold our long-awaited gossip session at last. George, hello.

• 1:45Speaker 03

  Hello. I'm so excited to be here. I have to say, I just downed a caffeinated protein smoothie, so I have no idea what my behavior is going to be like.

• 1:54Speaker 02

  You're pumped and ready to go.

• 1:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, I really am.

• 1:58Speaker 02

  You've spent years unpacking the rich, multicolored tapestry of straight culture.

• 2:03Speaker 03

  Correct.

• 2:04Speaker 02

  What have you learned about how straight people gossip compared to how queer people do?

• 2:08Speaker 03

  Okay, this is an interesting question. So, I feel like, and I feel like y'all are part of what I'm about to say. There's this sort of movement that started like five to 10 years ago, where it was very much like, we're reclaiming gossip as a feminist exercise, which I totally get. Has not been my experience. Like, in my, I'm kind of like, I don't know if what I do as gossip I'm ready to reclaim as a pro-social type thing. Although, I will say, I was thinking about my own relationship to gossip. In terms of gossip as a feminist praxis, I was just home in Greece, and I was witnessing my mom, having heard a piece of gossip, sitting on the couch and just making phone calls and relaying the same

• 2:52Speaker 03

  exact story in the same words to a variety of aunts, friends, sort of like quasi-aunts, that like, we call aunts but are not related to us, whatever. And I was like, wow, this is bringing her so much joy. And it's actually a victimless crime. And so, I think that maybe for straight people, it is an act of feminist praxis. And then for queer people, it's more like, kind of like a cruel act of revenge.

• 3:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. Unfortunately, that does make sense. But that's also kind of why I love gossiping with queer people, because sometimes, I've said this on this show before, I do enjoy the reclaiming of gossip as a feminist act. I do think that women's activities and women's business is often diminished. However, sometimes I just want to be a judgy bitch.

• 3:36Speaker 03

  Right.

• 3:37Speaker 02

  And I don't want to pretend that it's for the best of other people. It's for the best of me and my friends and my circle.

• 3:43Speaker 03

  100%. And to be honest, I have a friend who, in the last, I would say, two years, I used to be able to gossip with him way more. In the last two years, something has happened where like, I will bring up a piece of gossip, and he'll be like, well, she's been going through a lot. And I'm like, I know. That's not what this is about, though.

• 3:59Speaker 02

  That is so rude.

• 4:00Speaker 03

  And I actually think that is more mean than just gossiping.

• 4:02Speaker 02

  It's so judgmental.

• 4:03Speaker 03

  Because then you're just like judging me.

• 4:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:05Speaker 03

  I'm not, I'm separately supporting her, and I'm texting her, are you feeling okay? But I would also like to talk about her with you.

• 4:11Speaker 02

  Exactly. I'm not bringing these judgmental thoughts to her. I feel like people don't understand that negative energy has to go somewhere.

• 4:18Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 4:18Speaker 02

  And if you don't want it to go towards the person, you have to let it go somewhere else. We're humans. We judge each other. It's simply what our brains do. And I feel like you can simultaneously be kind and also say, I simply wouldn't do that.

• 4:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:34Speaker 02

  Well, this kind of goes into the question of what is your relationship to gossip? And it sounds like it's very family-influenced.

• 4:41Speaker 03

  Yes. Well, I'm in a very family-oriented moment right now, because I was just at my sister's wedding. That's why I was in Greece. And we were in the cauldron of like, so, how's, you know, so-and-so's aunt interacting with this member of the family? Because we know that they might have, there might be some sort of cultural difference there that might not go well. Like, how was this person interacting with this person? And so, I was in a very, like, family gossip space. And so, that's where I'm at right now. And because I was gone for two weeks and now I'm back, I'm kind of like, so what's been going on with everyone here? What's happening in Manhattan? What's happening in Brooklyn? Because I haven't gotten the last few, sort of like, social newsletters.

• 5:17Speaker 02

  It's so nice to come back from a vacation and get the download.

• 5:20Speaker 03

  First piece of gossip I've heard on being back in New York is that two guys I know that broke up got back together at a music festival.

• 5:28Speaker 02

  Ooh.

• 5:28Speaker 03

  And they said that the music festival brought them back together. I said, well, I love that.

• 5:32Speaker 02

  Well, a little birdie told me you have another piece of gossip to tell me.

• 5:37Speaker 03

  Okay, so I'm really going to do my best to anonymize this. Basically, it's a very quick story, which is that there's this couple, I always thought they seemed, I would call them, you know, those couples that are very Instagram, like, two months together, three months together, four months together, like, we went to Italy, we went to Capri, whatever. Both very attractive and sort of like, not afraid to be in bathing suits, let's say. Kind of like, when Instagram first came out, and you were like, wow, I'm feeling this, like, bad jealous feeling, you know?

• 6:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:06Speaker 03

  It's people that, like, are from my past. At some point, I noticed that they weren't posting together anymore. I like, asked around, seems I got divorced. I was like, oh, what happened? Apparently, they did some sort of hallucinogen together. I'm not sure if it was shrooms or acid. And one of them had the realization that the other one was, quote, fundamentally evil while on drugs. And then, when they were back to not being on drugs, the person, I'm trying to not use genders, could not get that out of their head. And so, they couldn't be with the other person anymore. And they got divorced.

• 6:38Speaker 02

  That is the worst-case scenario of a shroom trip.

• 6:41Speaker 03

  I know.

• 6:41Speaker 02

  I also don't know if I could get over experiencing someone I love is fundamentally evil.

• 6:48Speaker 03

  Well, yes. And to be honest, like, I don't have this specific fear. I don't necessarily think I would decide my partner's fundamentally evil, but like, even smaller things, like, what if I decide his leg looks weird? And then I like, can't unsee it. Like, it doesn't have to be a moral, ethical thing. Like, I do have that fear, because you just never know what might happen. And you hear stories of people being like, oh, I did an ayahuasca experience or whatever, and then I realized I needed to be a sculptor. And it's like, well, you're not very good at it, you know? And, but you can't get that out of your head.

• 7:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, I feel like that is one of the kind of revelatory things about things like shrooms or ayahuasca or like ketamine, is that they can rewire, like, your neural pathways, which is great. But also, once you rewire something, it's kind of hard to unwire it.

• 7:33Speaker 03

  To me, it's such a recipe for disaster. And maybe I'm too conservative, but I'm really, like, I will do things with friends way easier than I will do them with a partner. Maybe this is something where people are like, that's a red flag. We don't trust each other. But it's really not that. I'm just like, I'm happy with my life. Like, I'm happy with my marriage. I don't want anyone to be like, what if you looked at it from like, a completely different perspective?

• 7:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. I'm choosing this perspective, and we're staying there, unless I'm being forced to do something. And ayahuasca's entirely voluntary.

• 8:03Speaker 03

  Yes, completely. Yes. Despite what some people, what some shamans might tell you.

• 8:08Speaker 02

  Despite what seemingly everyone LA says, yeah. But I have some gossip for you.

• 8:13Speaker 03

  I can't wait.

• 8:14Speaker 02

  Are you ready?

• 8:14Speaker 03

  I am.

• 8:20Speaker 02

  We've been cooking up a fun, special holiday project for y'all over here at Normal Gossip. And usually, when work gets crazy, I kind of just try to continue my life like nothing's happening. But recently, thanks to therapy, this time around, I was like, what if I did not try to pour from an empty cup? And that is what growing feels like. If you've been thinking about starting therapy, then I think you should check out today's sponsor, Growth Therapy. Growth Therapy is built for therapy that actually feels like care. You can find therapy based on what matters most to you, like insurance taken, mental health specialties,

• 9:01Speaker 02

  identity, or night and weekend availability, if you're working a lot. Book your first session in minutes, and you can start in as little as two days. Sessions average $21 with insurance, and some pay as little as $0, depending on your insurance plan. Prepare for holiday glimmers instead of holiday stress. Visit growtherapy.com/gossip to get started today. That is growtherapy.com/gossip. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. I'm going to admit something embarrassing. I know. Shocker. I have not had a bedside lamp for an undisclosed amount of months, long enough that I basically haven't read

• 9:42Speaker 02

  before bed for a really long time. And I only realized this because I'm hosting a friend, and I was like, wow, they deserve to have a light by their bed at night. I don't. But this finally inspired me to find the perfect bedside lamp, and I had a vision in mind, Wayfair, they had exactly what I need, which is one of those library-style lights with like, the green lampshade and little pull cord. I have been having this image in my mind of having one, and now I have one because of course Wayfair had it. For all things hosting, Wayfair delivers high-quality, customer-trusted products for your home, so you can host and celebrate without distress. When refreshing your home

• 10:24Speaker 02

  this holiday season, Wayfair delivers exactly what you need. Head to wayfair.com to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com.

• 10:35Speaker 02

  Every style, every home. There is nothing I love more than roasting a whole chicken. It is so easy to do, much easier than you think it's gonna be. And then you have a whole chicken to make chicken salad with, or just to eat off of, like a caveman, or to offer little bits up to your cat. And the whole chicken that I love to roast comes from ButcherBox. ButcherBox's chicken is so high quality. ButcherBox delivers 100% grass-fed beef, organic chicken, wild-caught seafood, and more, all sorts of standards they can actually tell you about. They've already done their research and made the tough sourcing decision, so all you have to do is decide what's for dinner. It's kind of like having the neighborhood butcher everyone wishes they still had,

• 11:19Speaker 02

  except it's delivered to your door. So I'll just have a whole chicken in the freezer and think, wow, that's dinner, lunch, for at least three to four days. I don't have to worry where it's coming from. Love it. If you're looking for an easier way to get great meals on the table, give ButcherBox a try. Go to butcherbox.com/gossip to get $20 off your first box, plus chicken breasts in every box for life, or filet, or New York strips for a year with free shipping always. That is butcherbox.com/gossip. Again, that is butcherbox.com/gossip. Be sure to use our links, they know we sent you.

• 12:07Speaker 02

  Today's story is about nonprofits.

• 12:12Speaker 03

  I'm all in.

• 12:14Speaker 02

  Say more.

• 12:14Speaker 03

  One of the great sites of struggle, and I don't mean that in the larger sense of like nonprofits are sort of fighting for greater equality and social justice. I mean, you know, in the same way that, let's say, a queer-owned small business is bound to fail.

• 12:33Speaker 03

  Like, I'm like, the more social justice-oriented you are, the more infighting there's gonna be, and like, it's not gonna end well. Oftentimes with these places, it's like, you actually are exposed to even more of the inequality you're fighting because you're forced to like, throw this big gala, and then suddenly like Lauren Sanchez is there, and she's making a speech about like, adult literacy. So I don't know, I'm sort of like, I'd rather volunteer locally than be involved in sort of a global Ford Foundation type.

• 12:58Speaker 02

  I also feel like nonprofit jobs are kind of spiritually similar to media jobs in that they're both like, passion careers, where you get paid no money, but you can keep your nose ring in at work. I'm not talking about myself at all.

• 13:13Speaker 03

  No, of course.

• 13:14Speaker 02

  But I wanted to ask, when you hear someone works for a nonprofit, what is your first impression? What do you expect their vibe to be?

• 13:21Speaker 03

  I think you could be like, sort of like, a really privileged person that has decided to quote-unquote, "give back." And it's like, you come from money, you went to a really good school, all your friends work in finance, but like, you're like, this is my thing, like, I'm a bleeding heart, and I'm gonna dedicate my life to this. I don't need to make more money, whatever. And then I think, unfortunately, sometimes you are, you do not come from money, and you are actually implicated in the systems that you are trying to dismantle. In my limited experience, I've never worked at a nonprofit. In my limited experience, it sort of is like, a lot of the people in charge are the more privileged people,

• 13:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:57Speaker 03

  and they don't understand that difference. And so then they're kind of like, why are you complaining?

• 14:04Speaker 02

  Also very media-coded.

• 14:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:06Speaker 03

  And so I feel like, again, the like, larger struggles that are the focus of whatever the nonprofit is, are also being played out in miniature within the nonprofit itself. But then everyone has to speak in this coded language because they can't say "the thing" on their mind, which is like, our CEO makes $20 million a year.

• 14:24Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, until the union drive.

• 14:26Speaker 03

  Right, exactly.

• 14:27Speaker 02

  And then things get complicated.

• 14:29Speaker 03

  Right.

• 14:29Speaker 02

  Well, our friend of our friend today is named Riley. Riley is 21. She just graduated from college, where she majored in environmental policy. And the best way to describe Riley at this point in her life is bright-eyed and bushy-tailed. She's at that age where she still believes most people are good. Like, she's aware of the world and its problems, somewhat overly aware, like most 20-somethings now. But she also believes that most problems can be solved with like, an honest conversation. Riley's like, if the right people got in the right room together, we could solve world hunger.

• 15:00Speaker 03

  Well, I would love to know where that room is.

• 15:03Speaker 02

  Were you ever this idealistic?

• 15:05Speaker 03

  No offense to Riley. I was this idealistic, but like, way younger.

• 15:09Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 15:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, Riley is still so idealistic that she believes that she picks the right job, she can change the world.

• 15:16Speaker 03

  Right.

• 15:17Speaker 02

  Which is great, because Riley was recently accepted into a year-long fellowship with, you guessed it.

• 15:22Speaker 03

  The Ford Foundation?

• 15:22Speaker 02

  A nonprofit.

• 15:26Speaker 02

  We cannot name anything here.

• 15:28Speaker 03

  Okay, okay, okay, no, bleep it, bleep it.

• 15:30Speaker 02

  Well, the overall vibe of this nonprofit is very much like, young people fixing the system.

• 15:34Speaker 03

  Right.

• 15:34Speaker 02

  It was founded by a group of plucky, young college students, and its mission is housing justice.

• 15:40Speaker 03

  That's one of the big ones.

• 15:41Speaker 02

  Along with Riley, there are four other fellows, and the organization itself employs about 15 full-time staff, including Alyssa. Alyssa is one of the plucky, young founders of the nonprofit. She manages the entire fellowship program. She's got a full sleeve of botanical tattoos, and Riley described Alyssa to us as magnetic. Riley told us that Alyssa was beautiful, warm, thoughtful, emotionally fluent, and deeply committed to the mission of the organization. Riley also told us that Alyssa made herself available to all the fellows for anything: career advice, life spirals, personal crises. Like, as soon as Alyssa and Riley log on to their first Zoom call, Alyssa's like, Riley, it is so good to finally meet you.

• 16:26Speaker 02

  Let's cover the business stuff fast. I've been wanting to talk about this video game with you ever since I read your cover letter. Something that is important to know is that even though Alyssa is technically Riley's boss, Alyssa is also basically Riley's age. Like, she had graduated maybe two years prior to this story. So this is a workplace ran and managed by people in their 20s, who are then managing other people in their 20s.

• 16:50Speaker 03

  I've been there.

• 16:51Speaker 02

  How functional would you expect this workplace to be?

• 16:54Speaker 03

  Okay, so my experience with child CEOs is not in the nonprofit world, it is in the tech startup world. So like, when I was in college, and then, like, the two years after college, I had experiences of being in these sort of like, I was living in the Bay Area, like, Bay Area, Silicon Valley startups, where like, if anything, being younger means you get even more money, because people are always like, looking for the next Mark Zuckerberg. And so I did have a lot of experiences of like, the person in charge being 22. So it's like a 22-year-old interviewing a bunch of like, 50-year-olds that are coming from Wells Fargo, or whatever. I remember even at the time, just being like, is everyone here on crack? Like, what? Everyone here meaning Silicon Valley. Like, I'm like, I understand, my thoughts on Mark Zuckerberg aside,

• 17:38Speaker 03

  if you think he's like, amazing, I understand that he at least built this thing, and he had like, an unusual amount of follow-through and whatever, regardless of the fact that he's like, destroyed the world. But the average 22-year-old simply is not gonna do that. And like, in the nonprofit world, it's different because there's this idea that young people have more courage to like, take big steps that maybe older, more cynical people don't. So I understand the impulse behind giving them those resources. But I also think like, you need to first experience what it's like to be in a workplace before you can run one, I guess. This is my final answer.

• 18:14Speaker 02

  I think that is a great answer, and entirely true.

• 18:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:18Speaker 02

  The first few months of Riley's fellowship do go smoothly despite this. And as part of the program, each fellow gets to choose an immersion program to participate in for the summer. So Riley had her heart set on being placed somewhere in the Southwest, so she can be close to her family. And she obviously wants to be with a place that values sustainability. Like, there's actually a specific permaculture program in Arizona that's her top choice. Riley's talking about this permaculture program with Alyssa, and she's like, this is my top choice, but I would also like to be at this one in Nevada. And Alyssa is listening and taking notes before she's like, okay, those both do sound great, but hear me out. I think I have the perfect program for you. Well, Alyssa does site visits with all the fellows every year, both to like, build relationships with the companies, and to check up on how the fellows are doing.

• 19:03Speaker 02

  So Alyssa's like, I don't want to overstep, but since you're my favorite, can I just point you towards this program that's legitimately amazing? They build and design eco-friendly tiny homes.

• 19:14Speaker 03

  Right, okay, I'm seeing where this is going. This is giving like, one laptop per child scam vibe to me, but go on.

• 19:23Speaker 02

  Alyssa's like, there's just something special about the work they're doing over there. And Alyssa tells Riley that she would get to work with the foreman, who's like, the most amazing mentor. It's this company based in rural Pennsylvania, which is very much not in the Southwest. Yes, but Alyssa's like, if you think about it, Pennsylvania is kind of the Southwest of the Northeast.

• 19:44Speaker 03

  Uh huh. So far, so good.

• 19:48Speaker 02

  Well, before I move on, I wanted to ask, how do you feel about the whole like tiny home movement?

• 19:52Speaker 03

  I really struggle with gimmicks. My parents really were like, there are no shortcuts in life. Like, so every time I hear something that's like, it, this goes back to my distress of Silicon Valley. Every time I hear something that seems like an easy way to do something that normally is hard. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. Like, there's some catch we're not like taking into account.

• 20:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:11Speaker 03

  And so that, again, like one laptop per child is like a great example of this. I'm like, that's not going to work.

• 20:18Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 20:19Speaker 03

  Like, you actually need an ecosystem and like well-funded schools and you need to like, look at the big picture. And so to me, I'm like, whatever permaculture is, it sounds like a more permanent solution than tiny homes in rural Pennsylvania.

• 20:34Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, after working with Alyssa for a couple of months, Riley's respect for Alyssa has only grown. Like, at this point, Riley doesn't know if she wants to be besties with Alyssa, or she wants to be Alyssa, or she wants to be with Alyssa.

• 20:48Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 20:48Speaker 02

  I added the last one, but we all have inappropriate work crushes. Whatever it is, Riley agrees to initial call with the owner of the tiny home company, whose name is Grace. Grace seems nice and she is definitely older than anyone at the nonprofit, which like could be 31 or 49 or 57. It is all the same to a 21-year-old. Grace tells Riley that she founded the company just a few years ago after she retired from being a venture capitalist. These tiny homes were a real passion project for her. Grace said that most tiny homes on the market are basically shanties. She's like, people should be able to save on space without living in squalor.

• 21:24Speaker 03

  I, first of all, love the idea of disrupting the tiny home movement, which already is like a disruption of the normal home movement. Like, I'm kind of like, we need to let it land. Like, let's have one generation of normal tiny homes and then we can start disrupting the industry. I mean, obviously, former venture capitalist, huge red flag, but I also don't want to be like, she's not to be trusted. Because what, you know, I think it's good if someone stops being a venture capitalist in order to like found some sort of like pro-social organization or company. Like, I want to encourage, it's like how I feel about performative men, where I'm like, stop being distrustful of a man because he reads. It's like, let's see.

• 22:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 22:04Speaker 03

  If this, maybe this will go well.

• 22:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:06Speaker 03

  So I'm not, obviously, like, my alarm bells are going off, but I'm trying to be really open-minded about Grace is where I'm at.

• 22:11Speaker 02

  Wow, I love that. That's very generous of you.

• 22:15Speaker 02

  Grace tells Riley that while her company is still perfecting the design of their tiny homes, they would have more than enough for Riley to do for the summer. And Grace says, not only would Riley be more than welcome, she would also have free housing for the summer.

• 22:28Speaker 03

  In a tiny home? Yes.

• 22:30Speaker 02

  Apparently, Grace's company built like a village of demo tiny homes.

• 22:33Speaker 03

  I see.

• 22:34Speaker 02

  So that clients can come and like tour the different models. They're all no bigger than 600 square feet. And the company no longer makes the first unit they built because they've like improved on the design since then. But obviously, eco-friendliness is central to their ethos. They can't let a whole tiny home go to waste.

• 22:49Speaker 03

  So she's going to be living in the rejected V1 tiny homes? We're talking like the toilets like shooting piss into your face? Like, you're trying to use the kitchen, the microwave is blowing up? Got it. Okay.

• 23:02Speaker 02

  Well, they converted it to a caretaker space. So it's a one-bedroom, one-bath tiny home with a full kitchen and a patio. And though Grace tells Riley that the inside is not fully finished, it is fully hooked up with plumbing and electricity. And Riley will be the only fellow, so she would have the place all to herself.

• 23:20Speaker 03

  The one-bedroom, one-bath?

• 23:21Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 23:22Speaker 03

  So it's sort of just like a basic level, like, human residence. Got it.

• 23:27Speaker 02

  Well, you're Riley. Is any of this persuading you?

• 23:29Speaker 03

  I'm finding this to be a completely different thing than what she's interested in, in all possible ways. And this is kind of classic Alyssa to me, in that she promised this like plethora of choices, when in fact she had something very specific in mind.

• 23:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:46Speaker 03

  Which I feel like is very much giving like something you learn in business school, where you're like, okay, so if you want to convince your employee to do something, convince them it's their idea. Like, be like, what do you think? And then they're like, I want to go to Arizona. And you're like, amazing. So Pennsylvania is like Arizona. I would actually respect Alyssa more if she was just sort of like, we're placing you in an internship. Like, that's how this works. And like, we're taking, you know, names out of a hat, or like, I'm deciding as the head of this, whatever. And so I'm definitely in a distrustful place with Alyssa. However, but I'm kind of like, you're 21, like, if you're being placed with the tiny homes, like, you have to go to the tiny homes. Like, you don't have freedom to do anything you want in your first job.

• 24:29Speaker 02

  It's true.

• 24:29Speaker 03

  I'm familiar with this feeling of being like, but I was promised this. But I'm just sort of like, see how it is. Like, it's one summer.

• 24:37Speaker 02

  Yeah. Riley is a fan of free housing, because not all the internships necessarily have free housing. But she also wants to talk to the foreman that Alyssa had hyped up so much. But when she asked about him, Grace is like, he's really busy. He's got a lot on his plate right now. But we can definitely set up a time for you to talk to him after you've committed.

• 24:56Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 24:57Speaker 02

  Alyssa reaches out to Riley after her call with Grace to see how Riley is feeling. And Riley's like, I don't know, I kind of wish I had like a little more time to talk with the other programs. And Alyssa's like, I totally hear you, but can I give you a little advice? Alyssa tells Riley that there are times in life when you just have to make a leap of faith, like Alyssa did, when she founded the nonprofit.

• 25:18Speaker 03

  I mean, here's what I'm struggling with. To me, this sort of like critique of girl bosses is often like veiled misogyny.

• 25:25Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 25:26Speaker 03

  And I have many women friends who are entrepreneurial in some way. Why are we criticizing them and not like men who are starting businesses every day? And so I don't, I'm not saying you're setting me up to do this, but I feel like this story is being set up to be like, Alyssa's a classic girl boss, like, we've seen this before, like, and I don't want to go down that road. Like, I'm trying to really be like, not having that reaction.

• 25:50Speaker 02

  But.

• 25:51Speaker 03

  But here's the thing, it's tough, because I do feel like this is a double bind of being a a woman entrepreneur, is like, a man, a stereotypical man, would be like, you're doing this, no questions asked, like, don't complain. I think what Alyssa's trying to do is to basically have it both ways, where she's both like controlling everything and also being like, but it might, but I have an open-door policy.

• 26:12Speaker 02

  I'm emotionally fluent.

• 26:14Speaker 03

  I'm emotionally fluent. And it's like, unfortunately, that's where the pitfalls lie, is like, in making this false promise that you can't really keep.

• 26:22Speaker 02

  I think the issue with girl bosses is not the girl part. Actually, I do think it's the girl part. I think it's that we should just be bosses.

• 26:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And not afraid of being not liked.

• 26:33Speaker 02

  Exactly. Well, Alyssa's like, this company would be an incredible opportunity for you. And then she's like, if you're the fellow at this company, maybe I'll schedule my site visit in a way where I can hang out for more time and like spend a whole weekend with you. And this is enough for Riley. So Riley signs. Riley arrives the night before her internship starts, and she's not going to lie, she's a little nervous. It had really only occurred to her on the flight to Pennsylvania that the tiny home that Grace had talked up so much might just be like a glorified trailer.

• 27:02Speaker 03

  Right. And maybe not even glorified.

• 27:05Speaker 02

  But as soon as Riley is dropped off on the company lot, she spots the village of tiny homes. And honestly, it's kind of cute. It's a bunch of little houses, like side by side, all laid out in a big circle, all painted different colors. It's nighttime when Riley arrives, so she can't make out like a ton of detail. But she can see that all the homes are basically slightly different versions of the same design, which is a rectangular box. The company has put some effort into making each model look different, like one of them has a big window, several of them are taller, so they can have a loft. And in the center of this little tiny home village is a gorgeous stone fire pit that looks like it has never been used, surrounded by new wooden Adirondack chairs.

• 27:45Speaker 03

  Oh, wait, wooden?

• 27:47Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 27:48Speaker 03

  Fire pit. Are they going to catch on fire? Okay, no spoilers.

• 27:53Speaker 03

  I know that I've, of course, famously come out as anti-tiny home, but as like a summer fun little like camp vibe, I'm kind of into this. Like, I honestly probably would live in a tiny home for one summer.

• 28:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:07Speaker 03

  As like a little like fun activity. I don't, I would not invest in a tiny home company necessarily, but I think that sounds fun to me.

• 28:14Speaker 02

  You and Riley are on the same page. She's like, so far, this is nicer than I expected. But she's also not getting her hopes up. She follows the instructions that Grace sent her, retrieves her key from the hiding spot, lets herself into the little caretaker home. And what she finds is nothing like her expectations. Like, the floor is not vinyl planking. It seems to be actual hardwood.

• 28:32Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 28:33Speaker 02

  The fridge is fancier than any fridge Riley has ever used in her life. Like, it's got Bluetooth for some reason. The tiles in the backsplash behind the kitchen sink are gorgeous. And when Riley lends them for a closer look, she's like, are these hand-painted? The mattress in the bedroom has been made up with fresh linen sheets.

• 28:50Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 28:51Speaker 02

  So you're expecting cheap housing. Instead, you get what seems to be really expensive housing. What questions do you have?

• 28:58Speaker 03

  It's very clear that the tiny home startup is gonna be sort of like image forward. I'm like, it doesn't surprise me that the fridge is Bluetooth powered and the floors look nice. This is made to be photogenic, I guess, because it's like made to be put on a website to advertise the tiny homes. Again, as someone who has worked in tech startups, I'm like, what is hiding under the surface here?

• 29:19Speaker 02

  Well, Riley's like, okay, they must have made some upgrades to the caretaker space. This can't be what the rest of the tiny homes are like, because otherwise, who is buying these? The point is that they're cheaper than a regular house. But Riley's also like not complaining. She sleeps well in her little house. She eats some farmer's market granola that someone had left for her. And then she steps out to start her new job the next morning. Grace is waiting for her at the fire pit. And now that Riley can see her, she would guess that Grace is in her early 50s. She's wearing Van Cleef earrings.

• 29:49Speaker 03

  I can picture it.

• 29:50Speaker 02

  Some coveralls that Riley suspects that she had tailored, because Riley has never seen a pair of coveralls look this good on someone. Grace has Riley get into an electric golf cart, so she can give Riley a tour of the premises. She shows Riley the office, the warehouse. She gives Riley a tour of the other tiny homes in the village, which to Riley's surprise, all seem to be constructed out of really high-end materials. Like, there is sustainably sourced granite countertops in the newer models, and solar panels built into the roofs.

• 30:21Speaker 03

  Well, I will say that like, if this woman is a former VC, I was imagining her younger, to be honest, Grace. I thought she was also kind of a 22-year-old CEO. But if she is like, she has this whole career as a VC, she's starting this company. I'm now understanding, like, yes, she's clearly raised a lot of money and built like high-quality tiny homes. Obviously, I don't know how she's gonna have a return on her investment. But in my experience with VC-funded companies, they never do. And it's sort of like, at some point, they like crash and burn. Or it's like Uber, where like, we were trained to think that Ubers are $5 and now they're 55. And you just have to like deal with it.

• 31:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, Grace is like, I'm gonna drop you off for your orientation with Benji, who runs the warehouse in the assembly. So Grace pulls up outside the warehouse, and Riley is barely out of the golf cart before Grace is speeding away. Riley goes inside the warehouse, and she finds a lanky guy sprawled out on a beanbag chair, eating pickled-flavored Pringles. Now, before I describe what this man on the beanbag looks like, I need to ask you a question. Have you ever heard the phrase "drug rug" before?

• 31:28Speaker 03

  Is a drug rug that hoodie that like a stoner wears? Okay, yes, I do know what that is.

• 31:35Speaker 02

  I actually had not heard of this before this gossip story. I'd seen one, but I just never heard the term. And it is that thick pattern, like pullover sweater type thing that's from Mexico, and stoners used to wear back in the day. So this guy with the pickle-flavored chips is outfitted in a drug rug, a tool belt, cargo pants, and a backwards Oregon State baseball cap. He's pretty tall, like at least 6'2", but he's not brawny. He grins when he sees Riley, shakes her hand, and then without warning, gets extremely serious. This guy looks Riley dead in her eyes and is like, what do you put on your hot dogs?

• 32:12Speaker 03

  Okay, so let's take this sort of one step at a time.

• 32:18Speaker 03

  I'm very familiar with the sort of, you know, again, I used to live in the Bay Area. I have a lot of friends who go to Burning Man. Like, I get this type of guy, and obviously, I'm, you know, I roll my eyes a little bit, but it's not foreign to me. Like, I've met good ones and I've met bad ones. Like, I'm not immediately, god, I'm being so like generous today. I'm honestly usually way more of a huge bitch, but like, I'm, I'm really trying to like, I'm being understanding of the girl boss, I'm being understanding of the Burning Man drug rug guy. Like, I find the hot dog question to be really, really frustrating. I don't like people having like a little shtick, and then suddenly it's like on you to have a funny answer to it. It's like, I haven't met you yet. I don't like that.

• 33:00Speaker 03

  It's almost like a way to assert your dominance, to be like, I'm defining the terms of this conversation, and we're talking about hot dogs. It's like, that's a professional woman. She's there because it's her job.

• 33:11Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 33:12Speaker 03

  So that's how I feel.

• 33:13Speaker 02

  Riley is also like, what? And the guy's like, no wrong answers. But his body language is kind of saying the opposite. So Riley is more than a little nervous when she answers. She's like, ketchup and onions? And thankfully, this seems to be the right answer. The guy in the drug rug starts smiling again, he gives her a high five, and he's like, you passed.

• 33:32Speaker 03

  Well, I do wanna say that ketchup and onions is the wrong answer.

• 33:37Speaker 03

  Like, now I'm kind of like, wait a minute. And this is, by the way, this is this guy's trick. It's like you ask something, it's like when people ask, what's your bagel order? It's like the mayoral candidates, and it's like, well, there's no right answer.

• 33:49Speaker 02

  No.

• 33:49Speaker 03

  As we learned from Cynthia Nixon.

• 33:50Speaker 02

  I was literally just thinking Cynthia Nixon's order.

• 33:54Speaker 03

  So I was on Riley's side, and then she said, ketchup and onions. And I'm like, girl, what are you talking about? So anyway, but fine, he's being nice, this was a way to break the ice. Okay.

• 34:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's like, I'm Benji, I'm the four man. Benji starts showing Riley around the warehouse, but Riley can barely pay attention to what he's saying about like packaging orders, because he keeps drifting off topic. Benji's like, so you met Grace, huh? And then he sort of rolls his eyes. He's explaining how they clean their woodworking tools, and he hands Riley a hammer. And then he's like, there, now you have more construction experience than our dear leader.

• 34:29Speaker 03

  Well, listen, any kind of like back-to-the-woods guy is gonna distrust an older woman with Van Cleef earrings that is like a former VC. So I wouldn't, and it's also like, it's a great, there's a great tradition of like making fun of the boss, and like, it's a way for him to relate to her. I'm not so worried at this point.

• 34:48Speaker 02

  Yeah. Benji shows Riley a desk with a couple of old desktop computers. He's like, here where we work out the designs. And then he's like, don't bother coming up with anything original, though. We don't do new ideas around here anymore.

• 35:00Speaker 03

  So Benji needs to kind of figure his shit out, because like, clearly, he's mad at the company about something. They like said no to one of his ideas, whatever. And it's very unprofessional that he's opening with this to Riley.

• 35:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, so you're Riley. It's your first day on the job. How would you handle this kind of gossip being handed to you?

• 35:19Speaker 03

  I think what I would do is sort of like, really cozy up to him and be like, wait, dish. I think you connect to him and like, get him to tell you more. I don't think you should like, be awkward about it and be like, oh, okay, you know?

• 35:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. Riley is like, um, not to be nosey, but I'm picking up on some tension. Did something happen? And this is enough for Benji to spill. Benji tells Riley that he used to live full-time in the tiny house that Riley is currently staying in, and that he lived there for three years since the founding of the company, until Grace had kicked him out a few months ago, when she caught him and some of the other guys racing the golf carts behind the warehouse.

• 36:02Speaker 03

  Whatever, I can see both sides. Like, I'm like, okay, yes, if you're the big boss with the Van Cleef earrings, you're gonna fire someone for like doing something he's not allowed to. But also, he's like, that was a victimless crime, why am I being kicked out? Okay.

• 36:14Speaker 02

  And since Grace had kicked him out, Benji had had to move back in with his parents.

• 36:18Speaker 03

  That's tough.

• 36:19Speaker 02

  So you're Riley. How would you respond to this?

• 36:22Speaker 03

  I would empathize with him without taking his side. Rather than being like, she's such a bitch for doing that, I would be like, that sounds so hard. Is it a long commute? Like, just sort of like,

• 36:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 36:34Speaker 03

  Kind of like change the conversation into like his experience. And then I would sort of like clock that, okay, Grace is like a strict boss. Like, I should make sure to, you know, be on time, not do anything I'm not supposed to, et cetera.

• 36:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. Riley's like, damn, that sucks, I'm sorry. And Benji's like, it's okay. It's not your fault that the house has become this symbol of power and control in the company.

• 36:57Speaker 03

  Okay, well, this is interesting, because as I said, there's many different types of drug rug guy. I'm getting the sense that he's read some Marx, and he's very aware of like, Grace is the enemy, because she's like corporate and wealthy and used to be a VC.

• 37:13Speaker 02

  She's the man.

• 37:13Speaker 03

  Yes, she's the man.

• 37:15Speaker 02

  Fortunately, Benji does move on from this point. Unfortunately, what he moves on to is not much better.

• 37:19Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 37:20Speaker 02

  The next question Benji asks Riley is whether or not she's seeing someone.

• 37:24Speaker 03

  No, no, no, no.

• 37:25Speaker 02

  Riley's like, ah, no, I'm not really dating right now. And Benji's like, that's cool. And then Benji's like, I have a partner, but we're long distance.

• 37:34Speaker 03

  Both Riley and Benji are like naive 20-year-olds that haven't had a job before, but coming from different places. Like, to me, she's coming from a very like, went to a good school and wants to be a good person, and like, is an idealist, and he's very like, you know, my only job has been like woofing, and I like moved here from Oregon, and like, I've never had like a desk job.

• 37:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:59Speaker 03

  And so I'm like alienated by the corporate nature of this thing. Everything to him is kind of like a group project, rather than like a professional environment.

• 38:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, Benji goes on to tell Riley all about his partner. He never tells Riley her name, but he tells her a lot of other details, like how his partner's from North Carolina. By day, she kicks ass in her intense nonprofit job. By night, she plays a ton of video games. Obviously, she's gorgeous, but she also truly understands what Benji does for a living, because she also works in affordable housing.

• 38:32Speaker 03

  Okay, so he's dating Alyssa.

• 38:35Speaker 03

  Keep going.

• 38:36Speaker 02

  Riley is like, huh, that person sounds an awful lot like Alyssa. But Riley's also like, it would be so weird of Benji to share all these details in this way if he knows that I know Alyssa, which he definitely does. Everyone here does.

• 38:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 38:51Speaker 02

  So Riley's like, I have to be overthinking it. Do you agree that Riley is overthinking it?

• 38:56Speaker 03

  No, I don't think she's overthinking it. I knew something like this was gonna happen when the hot dog question came up. Let me just say that. Because both the hot dog question and this are both sort of like mind games to assert dominance, and basically make it so that it's like, spotlight's on you now, like, I just told you this thing, clearly something's in the air. What do you have to say about that?

• 39:16Speaker 02

  Yeah. Riley is determined to let all this drama just kind of wash over her. And she's gonna focus on her work, but she also can help feeling a little disappointed that she's here instead of in Arizona. Like, maybe this company was an inspiring place to work once, but low-key, the vibes are super weird, and Riley is not feeling inspired right now. But it's only been one day. Riley does get a hang for the workflow pretty quickly. She's learning about grant applications, how to take inventory, how to double-check shipments. Sometimes she spends her days in the warehouse, helping assemble the tiny house kits. And as it becomes clear that Riley has no interest in like ratting Benji out to Grace, he starts to trust her more and more. Like, a few weeks in, Benji shows Riley where the workers go in the back of the lot

• 40:01Speaker 02

  to race the golf carts, because of course, they never stop. They just learned how to do it quieter.

• 40:06Speaker 03

  Benji.

• 40:08Speaker 02

  Benji also builds an obstacle course for Riley to practice with the forklift, which is one of the most fun days of Riley's life. Until the end of the day, when Benji tells Riley that Grace expressly forbid him from letting interns use the forklift, Benji's like, but you're cool, so you won't tell, right?

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• 44:17Speaker 02

  Riley's like feeling very in over her head in this moment. And she remembers her talk with Alyssa and how Alyssa said she could reach out like any time, day or night. So she texts Alyssa to see if she can talk and Alyssa calls her right back. And Alyssa's like, how's it going? And Riley's like, I don't know, really? Benji's kind of intense. And then she's like, he had me drive the forklift today without certification, which I think is against OSHA. And Alyssa is quiet for a long time. And then she's like, did Grace see you drive the forklift? And Riley's like, no, no one saw me besides the guys. I think it was just like a one time thing. And Alyssa's like, okay, that's good. She's like, my take is don't worry about it. I won't tell anyone if you won't. Does this feel reassuring to you?

• 45:01Speaker 03

  Well, I mean, needless to say, I still think Alyssa is dating Benji. So that's incredibly shady. And clearly something's off. Let's, we have to be honest with ourselves.

• 45:09Speaker 02

  Well, the next day, when it becomes clear that Riley did not tell anyone about her forklift joyride, Benji comes to Riley with a company hat and a bag of Funyuns. Benji tells her that Riley passed the final test and she is officially part of the crew.

• 45:24Speaker 03

  But I hate that because it's like, who died and made you king of the crew? Like you're, this is so, again, this is hot dog question. This is like him being like wishy washy about his relationship with Alyssa. Like he's seeing a naive young woman and being like, how can I dominate her?

• 45:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, what's your plan for how to handle the next six weeks?

• 45:46Speaker 03

  My defense mechanism when I'm in this type of situation is to be like, I'm gonna keep my eye on my own paper and like pretend I have friends in the area that I'm having dinner with every night and like not be so involved in the community of the company with like all the guys doing like drag racing around the tiny home park. I would be like, something here is sketchy. I don't know what it is, but I'm gonna sort of like do my own thing.

• 46:10Speaker 02

  Riley, also similar. And luckily it is time for Alyssa's site visit. So she does have a friend in town that she can go hang out with. And Riley has been counting down the days to when Alyssa is coming. First, because she is genuinely excited to see her bestie Alyssa. And second, because Riley wants to catch Alyssa up on everything and make sure that her own ass is covered if things between Benji and Grace blow up. Alyssa is due to arrive on a Monday and spend the whole week on site with Riley. So it is the Thursday before Alyssa's site visit. And Benji is showing Riley some like new gutters they're gonna be installing when he mentions that he's gonna be skipping work on Friday. Because coincidence of all coincidences, his long distance girlfriend is coming to town.

• 46:54Speaker 03

  This guy is like Mr. Ripley or something like. Although again, I'm like, I mean, I see why Riley isn't taking the bait. Cause like it's complicated and it's her boss. But I'm just like, he's pushing buttons to see what he can get away with.

• 47:11Speaker 02

  Riley's like, huh, it's kind of wild. But Riley is also like, Alyssa's my friend. We're homies. She would tell me if she was dating Benji. Or at least she would tell me if she was getting in early so we can hang out. But after lunch, Riley is chatting with one of the warehouse guys when he says, are you excited Alyssa gets into town today?

• 47:30Speaker 03

  Well, thank God for him.

• 47:32Speaker 02

  At this point, Riley has had it. She finally just asks this guy point blank, are Benji and Alyssa secretly dating? And the warehouse guy is like, I mean, it's not exactly a secret. Everyone knows except Grace and I guess you, I thought Benji already told you.

• 47:48Speaker 03

  Wow. Okay. So this is interesting because Alyssa is like, first of all dishonest and weirdly setting her up to have some sort of like negative interaction with Grace because she is giving her incomplete information about the circumstances of her employment. Okay. Well, obviously the world is a fucked up place. And as I was saying earlier, women should not run companies.

• 48:19Speaker 02

  Riley has a lot of questions. She's like, is this why Alyssa pushed me to come here instead of Arizona? And is this why Benji has been making me do all his stupid little tests? Did Alyssa and Benji just want to arrange like an all expenses paid vacation? And use my future as a bargaining chip? So what do you think Riley's next move is?

• 48:37Speaker 03

  Okay. So Alyssa's like about to arrive in a few days. Riley has learned the big secret. Nothing good will come out of confronting anyone in this situation. Like quite simply, you're not gonna come out on top. Like you have the least power of anyone here.

• 48:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:51Speaker 03

  Obviously you're clocking this and you're saying, when I'm back home, I'm gonna leave the Alyssa company as soon as I can. I'm gonna start sending out, you know, some LinkedIn messages and sending out my resume. Like you're not gonna stay at the Alyssa company for three more years. But for now, to me, you have to kind of keep your head down and just like get through the summer. Now, if you're like a little more conniving, you could be like, what if I ally with Grace? Who has the most power of anyone here? And sort of like spill the beans to Grace and be like, I'm just telling you because I believe in the tiny homes. Like, and then you can even kind of parlay that into a, hopefully even better job with the tiny homes company, which undoubtedly has more money than the nonprofit because it's founded by this VC woman with Van Cleef.

• 49:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:37Speaker 03

  A, I don't think I have the courage and the tenacity to do that. And I certainly don't think Riley does. So I think the best thing she can do is sort of keep her head down and not say anything to anyone.

• 49:47Speaker 02

  Well, Riley decides she just needs to ask Alyssa what's going on, point blank, period.

• 49:51Speaker 03

  Right. So again, this is like the pitfalls of the millennial workplace where you think everyone's your friend. And I've done this before, like I have thought that I was in a good place with someone that I work with to be like, okay, like let's dish, like what's going on here? And then realize that that was not the case.

• 50:08Speaker 02

  Well, luckily Riley doesn't have to wait long. Alyssa reaches out over the weekend to ask if they can get breakfast together in town before work starts on Monday. And as soon as Alyssa sits down in the restaurant, she's like, I have something to tell you.

• 50:20Speaker 03

  Well, let's hear it.

• 50:22Speaker 02

  Riley is done with the bullshit. And she also knows that if she lets Alyssa talk too much, she'll just fall under her spell again. So Riley cuts Alyssa off. She's like, I know you and Benji are together. Why didn't you tell me? And for a moment, Alyssa looks surprised. And then she's like, I'm so sorry you found out from someone else. And then she's like, I've just been under a lot of pressure lately. And as Alyssa goes on and on about how disorganized the fellowship is behind the scenes and how Benji can't take off any time to visit her right now because Grace is watching him like a hawk. Riley has this realization, which is that while it's true that Alyssa does have a lot going for her, she's smart and accomplished and beautiful.

• 51:05Speaker 02

  Underneath it all, she is just a 22 year old. And apparently 22 year olds don't actually know that much more about the world than 21 year olds do.

• 51:13Speaker 03

  Period.

• 51:14Speaker 02

  Are you buying any of this from Alyssa?

• 51:16Speaker 03

  Um, I'm like, yeah.

• 51:21Speaker 03

  I mean, I think like, again, she's 22. Like, yes, I am buying that she like is having a difficult time balancing her personal life and her professional life. And she's like trying to run a company that is sending people to like Wisconsin and Pennsylvania to like work on tiny homes. Like, none of this makes any sense. A 22 year old should not be in charge of any of this. And like, I think that where Alyssa is now, it's like, the way that this will be handled will kind of define how she lives the rest of her life. If she gets humbled by this whole experience, then maybe she will kind of like reassess and do a better job with communication next time around. But if she somehow quote unquote gets away with it, then this is the making of like

• 52:02Speaker 03

  a Machiavellian sort of like girl boss that will just like maintain this level of, you know, slight deception, sort of like emotional manipulation. Talk about emotional fluidity. And then she will sort of like do this with higher and higher stakes people and then, you know, become a sort of like Sheryl Sandberg figure eventually.

• 52:25Speaker 02

  I was gonna say Elizabeth Holmes.

• 52:26Speaker 03

  Elizabeth Holmes.

• 52:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. No, I'm seeing it very clearly.

• 52:29Speaker 03

  But like, do I believe her? Essentially, yes. Like, she is saying, I'm a mess. And I do, and I do believe it. Yeah.

• 52:35Speaker 02

  That's real. That's real. Well, at the end of the breakfast, Alyssa, our mess, is like, listen, I understand why you would say no, but Riley, will you do me a favor?

• 52:46Speaker 03

  Oh, God.

• 52:48Speaker 02

  Riley's like, what's the favor? Before Alyssa's like, I'm not asking you to lie to Grace. Like, if she asks you a direct question, say what you need to say. But I would appreciate it so much if you would do us a solid and not tell Grace that Benji and I are together. So, do you do Alyssa the solid?

• 53:09Speaker 03

  This is really difficult. I mean, and here's where I'm starting to feel Machiavellian, because I'm kind of like, at this point, I actually don't care about any of these people. And this is about my career. Like, I really feel no loyalty towards Alyssa. We basically know Grace only through the eyes of Benji and Alyssa at this point. And obviously, I'm imagining this like really kind of strict, scary authority figure. But what if that's not the case? What if Alyssa and Benji have in fact like been so unprofessional and disappointed her at all turns? And that's why she's been strict with them. But in fact, she's like a really good businesswoman, she's good with her employees, she treats everyone well. Like, I don't know. I think that something that Riley should have done from the beginning is develop her

• 53:52Speaker 03

  own independent relationship with Grace, because I think that would have helped her with her career and with the summer. Like, I think it was a bad strategic move for her to like become besties with Benji. But I have to say, at this stage, Alyssa has lied to her, Benji has sort of like lightly harassed her the entire summer. I'm going to Grace.

• 54:12Speaker 02

  Unfortunately, Riley is like, I'll try not to tell her. And Alyssa like kisses her on the forehead, all like, thank you, thank you, thank you.

• 54:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:20Speaker 02

  So they head over to the front office to kick off Alyssa's site visit. Grace is there to welcome Alyssa. She gives her a tour to show her how everything has changed since the previous year. They walk through the warehouse. Benji comes over and like shakes Alyssa's hand. And then he winks at Riley. And when they get to the tiny home village, Grace points out the little tiny home next to Riley's. And she's like, and that's where you'll be staying, Alyssa. And then Grace turns to Riley and she's like, I told Alyssa she could use the bathroom and shower in your place, since you two are so close. That's okay, right?

• 54:51Speaker 03

  Okay, so everyone here really needs some HR training. This is like the pitfalls of startup culture. And I'm not some like corporate prude, like, not everything needs to be like a Zoom training. But your boss shouldn't be showering in your bathroom.

• 55:07Speaker 02

  Exactly. I've been at companies, not the current one I'm at, thank God, where the retreats, if they weren't in your city, you had to share a hotel room with one of your coworkers.

• 55:18Speaker 03

  I've heard about this, yeah. No, that's crazy.

• 55:19Speaker 02

  Riley doesn't feel like she has much of an option here, much like my coworkers who had to share a hotel room with their other coworkers. So Riley says yes. So that night after work ends for the day and all the other employees are gone, Riley gets a text from Alyssa that reads, hey, can I come over and take a shower? And then, can we make dinner in your kitchen? LOL.

• 55:38Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 55:38Speaker 02

  Once again, Riley is like, what other option do I have here? So Alyssa comes over, and while she's in the shower, Benji shows up at Riley's door.

• 55:48Speaker 03

  I mean, they're pushing it.

• 55:49Speaker 02

  He's like, hey, thanks so much for letting us make dinner in my old house.

• 55:52Speaker 03

  Oh, my God. Wait, so, so Alyssa wants to use Riley's kitchen for a date with Benji, who she is secretly dating. This is interesting, because it's like, you want to be a girl boss, you want to be the boss, but then you're creating this environment where you're all like keeping a secret from the teacher.

• 56:09Speaker 02

  Yeah. Benji's like, I know this must be weird for you, but thanks so much. But turns out, Benji doesn't even want to cook dinner in his old house. He wants to try out the new fire pit that Riley saw her first night on the job and which Riley has never seen anyone use in her six weeks on the job. We're almost at the end of our story. Do you have any predictions for how this is gonna go?

• 56:30Speaker 03

  I'm sensing that potentially Grace is gonna like walk in and see them making out or something. Benji is obsessed with like doing things he's not allowed to do. Maybe there's a reason why she has never seen the fire pit used, and it's because they're not allowed to use the fire pit. And so he's gonna try using it, and then it's gonna like blow up or like set something on fire.

• 56:46Speaker 02

  Those are all great predictions.

• 56:47Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 56:48Speaker 02

  Well, Benji has brought kindling and firewood and some matches, along with veggie and tofu to roast on skewers. Riley goes out to look at the fire pit with him, and this thing is just like gleaming under the setting sun, just like underscoring the fact that it has never once been used before. Riley's like, are you sure Grace is okay with this? And Benji's like, yeah, of course, it's a fire pit, that's what it's used for. He spends an hour getting the fire going, but it starts to rain right as Alyssa finishes her shower, so he ends up bringing all the food inside. And they cook and eat in the kitchen together. They drink all the beers Benji brought. It's actually like a really lovely night. Riley can see that Benji and Alyssa are clearly smitten with each other, so she's not surprised when they leave her house at like 8:00 PM and she sees Benji go inside Alyssa's tiny

• 57:33Speaker 02

  home with her. Riley's like, there's no way Benji's dumb enough to spend the night. But also, this isn't my problem anymore. Do you think Benji is dumb enough to spend the night?

• 57:43Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 57:44Speaker 02

  Didn't even finish the question.

• 57:47Speaker 03

  Well, I mean, it's not dumb. And I mean, it's like, also, not to blame the woman, but it's like Alyssa's clearly the more, presenting herself as the more like professional buttoned up one. So she clearly has like a fetish for sort of like this kind of Burning Man type like hippie guy, but it's like on her to then domesticate him, which she's clearly not doing. But like, it's not that he's like dumb or not dumb enough, but like, they haven't been together for a while, they obviously want to sleep together, so like, that's gonna happen. And I think he'll probably be like, oh, it's okay, I'm gonna set an alarm for like 6:00 AM and then like drive home after.

• 58:20Speaker 02

  Well, the next morning, at around 7:00 AM, Riley is awoken by the sound of someone like pounding on a door. It is so loud that at first Riley thinks it's someone pounding at her door, but then she hears Grace screaming.

• 58:35Speaker 03

  Oh, no.

• 58:36Speaker 02

  Benji, come on out of there, Benji. Riley stumbles out of bed to peek out of her bedroom window, which offers a perfect view of what is happening. Grace has her arms crossed, she is clearly furious. Alyssa is nowhere to be found, but she texts Riley like, oh, my God. Grace is like, I know you're in there, Benji. And like, to his credit, he does come out of the tiny house. Though to his discredit, it does prove that he is indeed dumb enough to stay the night and not leave early enough. Grace is like, I told you not to use the fire pit.

• 59:10Speaker 03

  Classic.

• 59:11Speaker 02

  And Benji's like, what's the big deal? You can just pay someone to clean it or buy another one, this is all monopoly money to you anyway.

• 59:19Speaker 03

  He's talking back to her. Well, see, it's interesting. I mean, I can't believe I'm on Grace's side here, because obviously she's the one that needs to be guillotined. But I'm like, she has actually given him like three chances, and he's now talking back to her again. But okay.

• 59:34Speaker 02

  Grace is fuming. She's like, the work we're doing here is real and important?

• 59:39Speaker 03

  That's up for debate, but let's keep going.

• 59:42Speaker 02

  She's like, if you don't respect my leadership, or if you don't believe in what we're doing here, then maybe it's time for you to go. Riley is like watching from her window. And at this point, she's like, Benji, please, just shut up and apologize. But Benji does not just shut up and apologize. Instead, Benji is like, what are you even talking about? We're not exactly saving the world here. We're making souped up mother-in-law suites to help your rich friends get tax breaks.

• 1:00:06Speaker 03

  Well, he did spill with that one, but not the time or place, maybe.

• 1:00:10Speaker 02

  And Grace is like, that's it, you're fired. Get your shit and leave. And she follows Benji all around the tiny home village and the warehouse as he gathers all his stuff. A few people are showing up for work by the time Benji is ready to go, but Grace does not let him say goodbye to anybody. She just marches him all the way out to the gate. Grace announces to everybody that she has fired Benji, and she gives everybody the day off to rest and recalibrate. And she asks them all to show up rejuvenated tomorrow and ready to do the work.

• 1:00:38Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm. Well.

• 1:00:39Speaker 02

  The entire crew hits up the store for hot dogs and beers, and then everybody goes up to Benji's parents' house to process slash get extremely drunk. And this is kind of how Riley's summer internship ends. She finishes out her time with Grace's company as quietly as she can, working by day and playing pickleball with Benji and his friends every afternoon, which she goes to great lengths to hide from Grace. She never really finds out who exactly is buying these souped up tiny homes, but by the time she's done, she's just like, I don't need to know anymore. And that is the end of our story. I do have some little updates for you.

• 1:01:13Speaker 03

  Oh, thank you.

• 1:01:14Speaker 02

  The first I wanted to ask, what life lessons do you think Riley has learned this summer?

• 1:01:19Speaker 03

  Needless to say, I'm still confused about where Alyssa fits into all of this. And I will say, as I was saying before, I was like, if Alyssa gets away with all of this, that's like a bad lesson for her because then she like goes through life thinking she's invincible. And I do think clearly that's what's happening. And that like, all these people are like collateral damage to her. She's like the main character and she's allowed to do anything she wants at any given point. So I think Alyssa, I'm sensing a really dark future for her. I think what lessons does Riley learn? I think it can go one of various ways. Like, I think the two directions this could go is like her being like, okay, well, I guess the whole nonprofit sector is fucked and I should just like work at a bank.

• 1:02:01Speaker 03

  Or her being like, well, I'm the right, it's like, wow, this sector is fucked, I can do it better. So I'm gonna start my own sort of tiny home company, whatever her version of that is. You know, maybe we're going back to permaculture. Maybe she's gonna apply to the Arizona permaculture nonprofit sort of on her own. But otherwise, she basically is coming out of this unscathed. So credit to her. If anything, compared to everyone else, she seems like the best worker be there. So maybe Grace has taken a liking to her, who knows? She has kept her promise with Alyssa as well, so Alyssa can't be mad at her. If anything, this bonds her with Alyssa even more because they can both be like, oh my God, like, do you remember when this crazy thing happened to us? And she can wield that against Alyssa and have like, always have her right ear, kind

• 1:02:46Speaker 03

  of, and like be in a good place within the company. So I'm thinking all this has been pretty good for Riley.

• 1:02:52Speaker 02

  Yeah. That was also very Machiavellian at the end. Use this to get closer to Alyssa.

• 1:02:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, genuinely.

• 1:02:59Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, Riley basically does that. Riley and Alyssa stay in touch, their friendship becomes genuine, and Alyssa is no longer Riley's boss, so Alyssa lets Riley in on a little secret, which is that apparently when Grace first founded the company with Benji, Grace and Benji were hooking up all the time.

• 1:03:18Speaker 03

  Whoa.

• 1:03:19Speaker 02

  And they continued hooking up for years, until Benji ended things with Grace, when he and Alyssa went exclusive, which is why Alyssa says Grace kicked Benji out of the tiny house and ultimately why she fired him. Though privately Riley does kind of feel like Grace had more than one reason to fire Benji.

• 1:03:38Speaker 03

  Okay, this is interesting, because this is really painting everything in a different light. Because I was, I really didn't think Grace had all that in her. I thought, I really thought she was, I thought she was like the normal level of evil and not like this kind of like, sort of sex criminal, uh, based, kind of like, you know, Nicole Kidman in Baby Girl, type of, type of gal. That said, you know, I have to say, the only person who didn't get any action in this story is Riley, so my advice to her is, you know, get on those apps, like maybe go to a bar. It's time for you to sort of have like a nice relaxing hookup, maybe with someone that's

• 1:04:20Speaker 03

  wearing like a normal shirt or a normal hoodie, um, because you've been through so much and you have been witness to so much sexual drama, that I think it's your turn. Like, I, I want Riley to, and I would even encourage her to do something like, a little risky, just to have an adventure, a normal level of risky. Like, maybe like find someone who like, is the barista at the in-house coffee shop at the Alyssa company and hook up with him.

• 1:04:48Speaker 02

  That's a safe option. Yeah, no, I feel that. Riley deserves a casual fling. Well, after being fired, Benji does end up moving to be closer to Alyssa. They then break up.

• 1:04:59Speaker 03

  Well, yeah.

• 1:05:00Speaker 02

  And now Alyssa is in a long-distance relationship with a woman who lives in Boston.

• 1:05:03Speaker 03

  Oh, well, good for her. Happy Pride.

• 1:05:06Speaker 02

  And as for our girl Riley, she now works for her dream company in Arizona, which she says is much more organized and doing far more meaningful work.

• 1:05:15Speaker 03

  Oh my God, I am so happy for Riley. I hope she has a really lovely Arizonan boyfriend. I've heard the, the food scene in Phoenix is, um, is very cool, and I hope that she's doing some, you know, ecotourism and going to some national parks.

• 1:05:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:33Speaker 03

  And I think unfortunately Alyssa's burgeoning lesbianism is only gonna make her more Machiavellian and kind of single-mindedly Machiavellian. So I don't, I think we're dealing with a sort of like Kristin Sinema type, uh, woman here. But that said, I'm all for queer women in positions of power and I'm excited for her to be in charge of the Ford Foundation one day. Um, here's what I think is gonna happen with Grace. I think she's gonna let go of the social justice messaging and just sell it as a luxury product, because that's what it is.

• 1:06:11Speaker 02

  That's what it is. It's for people to have in their backyards and get a tax break because it's eco-friendly, like you get a tax break for solar energy, which is not, not a bad thing to have. Rich people are gonna have it anyway. Thank you for listening to Normal Gossip. If you have a gossip story to share with us, email us at [email protected]. Or you can leave us a voicemail at 2679Gossip. If you love this podcast and want to support us, become a friend or a friend of a friend at supportnormalgossip.com. You can follow the show on Instagram and TikTok at Normal Gossip. You can follow me on all social media at HeyDanae. Subscribe to our YouTube channel at Defector Media to watch today's episode.

• 1:06:56Speaker 02

  Normal Gossip is written by me, Rachel Hampton, and Jay Tolviera. This podcast was produced by Sierra Spragley-Ricks and Jay Tolviera. Our audio engineer is Samantha Gatzic. Emily Cherish is our video editor. Theme music composed by Rishi Kesh Hirway. The co-creators and dour your queens of Normal Gossip are Kelsey McKinney and Defector's supervising producer Alex SuJong Loughlin. Justin Ellis is Defector's projects editor. Jaster Wang is Defector's business guy. Tom Lay is our editor in chief. This season was made in memory of Dan McLeod, who ran our merch store, which you can find at normalgossip.store. Tara Jacoby designed our show art. Thank you to Brandy Jensen, David Roth, Catherine Shu, Sabrina Embler, Chris Thompson, Dave McKenna, Patrick Redford, and Ray Rado for your help with this season.

• 1:07:40Speaker 02

  Thank you to the rest of the Defector staff. Defector Media is a collectively owned subscriber-based media company. Normal Gossip is a proud member of Radiotopia. I'm your host, Rachel Hampton, and remember, you didn't hear this from me.