Norah Jones Is Playing Along
Original podcast
Sarah McLachlan, the multi-GRAMMY and Juno Award–winning singer songwriter, sits down with Norah for an open and reflective conversation.
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This episode is also available as video on YouTube. You can visit Nora Jones' channel and be sure to subscribe while you're there. Hi, I'm Nora Jones, and today I'm playing along with Sarah McLachlan.
Hi, I'm Norah Jones. Welcome to the show. With me as always is Sarah Oda. Here we are. Yay. Today, we have a very special guest because I fangirled out like an 18-year-old Nora. That was my little baby self on this episode. We have the legendary Sarah McLachlan. Grammy-winning singer-songwriter who has an unmistakable voice that certainly left an impression on our generation, but also has connected listeners across all generations. She also founded Lilith Fair in 1997, bringing women artists together on one stage, and she continues to inspire and uplift with her artistry and activism.
There's a great doc out now on Lilith Fair that you should check out. It's pretty awesome. Her new album, Better Broken, just came out in September. That means you talk.
Yes, we do some songs from that album. They're really beautiful, and it was fun to catch her before she goes on tour because she hasn't really performed them live that much. So it was really special to sort of get to be there and play them with her. Very cool. Yeah, she said she was very connected to those songs right now, so. Yeah. In this episode, you're going to hear about the challenge of losing a voice on tour. You're going to hear about her music school programs and also about the Lilith Fair documentary, which just came out as well. And as always, there's beautiful music on the way, some new songs, and then for me, personally, a 90s dream come true. For me as well. Yes. Yes, I got to sing one of my faves with one of my faves. It was awesome.
She's a delight, and we loved hanging with her and having her on the show. I loved getting to connect with her in this way because we've met once, but we've never really got to hang out much. So here she is, Sarah McLachlan. There is some spicy language in this episode, so listener discretion is advised. It's not that bad, but just so you know, it's there.
When Truder comes, it's 4 a.m. The witching hour is back again and I'm
I'm running ragged through the maze.
I know the heart's a tricky beast like some coolly ephemeral spirit of the night blows you and robs you blind and leaves you bleeding on the street. When all you want is arms around you and a whisper in your ear
saying everything's gonna be alright even if it's not 'cause you're only human.
You can only take so much before we break. When you feel like you're drowning alone And the waves keep on coming and hold you down. And the circle goes round and round and round Till you can't breathe. But this light, you cannot see.
I know these rooms, these prison halls I've stumbled through so many times before To find the devil lurking just behind the door.
I don't pretend to understand The roads you've walked, how you still stand But I wanna try to lift some of the burdens that you bear. When all you want is arms around you
And whisper in your ear Saying everything's gonna be alright. Even if it's not. Cause you're only human.
But this light, you cannot see.
So beautiful, thank you.
That's so pretty.
Thank you for letting me sing with you.
I love, I love that we got to do that together. I literally have done this twice live.
That's amazing.
And that was like two months ago.
Okay. Yeah, I love this song. And when I was listening to the new album, I was like, the harmonies are beautiful.
Thank you.
Have you always done your own harmonies on record?
Pretty much, yeah. I mean, I harmonize to everything.
Yeah, same.
Whenever I'm listening to anything on the radio, in the car, I just instantly go to the third or the fifth or the fourth, or, you know, try and find another place. Because I just, I want to sing with everybody, basically.
Yeah, I get it. But you have really interesting harmony in the way you play. You use a lot of seconds and sort of...
I like a little bit of dissonance.
I like that.
And it's not so pretty. I mean, because it's, as you said, it was really pretty, and it is. And I'm really drawn to that, but I like, there needs to be some rubs.
Where does that come from? What, like, how did you learn music? I don't even know your history.
Uh, well, I started with ukulele when I was four years old.
Really?
Yeah. Because I, basically, I wanted to be Joan Baez.
Not bad.
Yeah, my mom listened. She had a couple of records, Joan Baez, Cat Stevens, Simon and Garfunkel. So, American folk was what I was steeped on, you know, and that's what I grew up with. And so I got a ukulele when I was four, and then we moved to the big city. And I started taking classical guitar lessons, because that was kind of the only thing that was available to be taught. Then moved from that. I kept taking guitar, then I started taking piano, then I took opera for a couple of years, which so was not my cup of tea. But, you know, it's like, oh, you sing, you want to sing, let's give you some singing lessons. And honestly, it did nothing but screw me up.
I almost took classical, like, opera. I was kind of dabbling in that when I was in high school, and I was afraid that it would train me the wrong way.
I feel like it kind of did. I actually had to, I had to unlearn some things, because one of them, they taught you to stand really rigidly, and they mentioned the diaphragm, but I was, you know, I'm really good at faking stuff. I can mimic pretty much anything. So I would just pretend to be an opera singer, and they didn't really teach me anything. They just, it was about, you know, staying in tune and hitting all those notes. But I was stiff because of it. I actually had to remind myself to loosen up. That was one of the very first things, when I started working with a vocal court coach after I blew my voice out on my first tour. She's like, okay, I just sang for her. She goes, mm, go run around the block as fast as you can and come back.
Are you serious?
And so I sprinted around the block, came back panting, and she says, lie down on the floor. So I laid on the floor. She goes, now sing that same part. And I'm like, oh, everything was working. My diaphragm was open, my lungs were opening up, and I-
You were just loosened.
I was loose.
Yeah.
Yeah, I'm like, oh, that's how I'm supposed to do this.
That's so cool.
One of my favorite albums is Surfacing, and I have a story to tell you later about that. But you really seem to be drawn to these weird sounds as well on the recordings.
I don't even know if they're synths or they're, they don't sound like typical synths, but whatever they are, they're very like organic but electronic.
Where does that come from?
Again, trying to create a soundscape that pulls you away from that sort of traditional prettiness. Because, you know, that's where I go. That's my, that's my comfort, beautiful melodies, harmonies, but it's, it's often very pretty.
I can relate.
Because it's the piano singer girl.
Exactly.
You don't want, I think I was-
And I love that.
But I, you know, when you think about why I love production, why I love going in the studio, there's an elevation that happens when you bring other musicians together and they create and bring colors to it that you wouldn't be able to think of on your own. That's why you collaborate.
Totally.
So why not use it all?
So why not utilize that? And you know, it, it's sort of a, sometimes a singular argument because I have so many people that say, I just want to hear you play and sing on the piano. And I go, do you understand how boring that gets for me as a listener? Like, I need, I need some dissonance. I need some, I need something to rub up against. That came out the wrong way.
So she said, yeah.
There needs to be a conflict in there.
It's also just, it's more fun playing with others.
Yeah, because you never know what they're going to come up with that makes you come up with something different.
Yeah, it's, it's a conversation that continues to happen every time you work together, every time you're experimenting and trying something different. It's like, that's where the magic happens.
Totally. Do you have a tour coming up?
I sure do. Yeah, I actually had to cancel my tour last year. I got a wicked virus right at the onset of my, I was doing this 30th anniversary, Fumbling Towards Sexist tour. I did it in America. I blew out my voice.
Wow.
I just, you know, I came on hot, like rehearsing seven hours a day, going right into the shows and kind of did some damage. So I was on steroids the entire tour.
Oh, God.
And you often put yourself in a bit of a false sense of security with those. And I did more damage on tour.
Ah.
And then I took the summer off, thinking that that would be enough to recuperate. And then I went back out in the fall and got a wicked virus, like day two, and lost my voice completely. And it was gone for three months.
That's insane.
And I went into ENT, got scoped, and they're like...
Were you worried it wouldn't come back?
Oh, yeah. I spent the whole, I spent most of the winter on vocal rest, like I wasn't allowed to talk, which is a little bit...
How did that go?
Really challenging.
And I was lucky, I'd finished almost all the vocals for the record. But I went through this last winter, thinking, oh, I might not be able to sing this album.
Which was, you know, I'm very lucky, I have a lot of things that bring me joy in my life. But I am, to a large degree, defined in my own sense of self around my voice.
And being able to sing, and using that as a, you know, a form of expression.
It's your superpower.
Well, yeah, I mean, it was, I was pretty bummed, thinking that it might be gone. But I just, you know, you have to think positively. So I did everything the doctor told me to do. I sound terribly hoarse right now, because I've been talking for the last seven days straight, which isn't the greatest thing for a singer. But it is back. I got it back. I got a clean bill of health, and I did all the vocal rehab and everything. And I'm going back out to do the same tour that I didn't do last year, starting on the exact same date, almost, October 15th.
But with a new album.
Well, yeah. And so for me, it's like, oh, this is a great opportunity. It's a soft launch. I'm gonna do the fumbling tour, but I'm gonna add in, not all of, but a few of the new songs. I'm fully aware that people, you know, aren't familiar with this material, and they want the old stuff. And they're paying good money to come see me, so I'm gonna give them what I want. But
Yeah, how do you navigate that?
I'm also gonna do a little bit of what I want, as well.
Yeah. You just do a balance, right?
You do, try and do a balance. I'll probably do four new songs.
Okay.
It's a two and a half hour show, so
Oh, yeah.
They're just gonna have to put up with it.
They're gonna be happy. They're beautiful songs. Yeah, that's such a balance, trying to do what you think people want, but also
Yeah, I mean, I'm also
Not getting stale.
I'm really lucky that I, for the most part, I still really love all these songs.
Good.
Like, I'm not sick of them yet.
That's great.
Yeah. You should be proud of them, you know?
I am, you know, but I don't know about you, but like, you know, the older stuff for me, I have less of an attachment to and less sort of an association.
Yes.
And if it feels disingenuous to sing it if I don't feel attached to it.
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Do you want to try the other song from the new record?
Sure.
What was the other song we were going to do?
I think we talked about doing Better Broken. This is also the title track.
Has it been a while since you released an album?
11 years.
That feels like a long time.
Well, 11 years since new material.
So I did a Christmas record, maybe six or seven years ago.
Because I had a two album contract on my last.
It's usually why people do Christmas albums.
Exactly. It's like, hmm, shall I press the easy button? Yeah. Yeah, all the songs are already written. It's great. But yeah, 11 years since new material. And I mean, I've been busy. I raised two.
Daughters. I just dropped off my little one at university.
A couple of weeks ago. Yeah, so I'm an empty nester.
How does that feel?
Well, I haven't been home, so I think I'm okay.
You're busy.
Honestly, yeah.
You're busy enough.
I mourned it for probably the last six months.
Before she left. We're super tight. And honestly, every time anybody brought it up to me, I started leaking.
Like, okay. I'm like, oh, my God, I'm going to be such a mess. But I think when you know something is coming, you can kind of, I was kind of grieving it along the way. And then when I got there and I'm. Moved her in and she was so ready and so excited. And I walked downstairs and I've got to go, I've got to go get on the plane and go home. And she's like, I got this, Mom.
Aww.
I'm, I'm good. And I said, well, then I'm good, too. And gave her a big hug and said, I'll see you in a couple of weeks. Because I'm going to LA in a couple of days. So it's been like, you know, a month and then.
It's not like a year.
It's not. And, you know, I think in the winter, when I'm home by myself and it's a big old house and, you know, there's not the noise of her music or, or just her big presence. Like, I'll definitely, I'll miss her and I already miss her. But here's the other cool thing, like she FaceTimes me almost every day.
Oh, that's great.
So she misses me, but it's not like, I want to come home, miss you. It's just like, hi, Mom, how are you?
Okay, bye, I got to go.
She's just checking in. And I'm sure that will lessen over time, but.
It's such an interesting dynamic.
I mean, I'm just, I'm so grateful that I kind of semi-retired. Like COVID happened and it was as awful as it was. It was in some ways a gift for me to just be able to slow down and realize how introverted I actually am.
Yeah, it's a funny thing.
Yeah, and it just, I was like, okay, I'm just, just going to be a mom. I've got a couple of years left. I really want to enjoy this.
My youngest also is a big dancer, so I was full-on dance mom. Doing all the hair and makeup till about 14, when she's like, no, I got it, Mom.
That's funny.
Oh. Yeah, and I was fundraising off the side of my desk, too, for my free music schools. And I'm very actively involved in those. So, and I was continuing to tour a little bit.
So, writing just, it kind of took a backseat for a chunk of years, so.
But it probably doesn't feel like that long to you, does it?
It doesn't.
Yeah, that's the thing. I think people think, people have a perception of that between album thing as being much different than the person.
Yeah, well, because they're all, they're on the outside just waiting for the new material or waiting for something new and we're, you know.
It's like, what have you been doing? Well, what have I not been doing, right?
Yeah, we're busy living our lives, gaining experience, gaining hopefully some wisdom so that we can. Write and have some perspective and feel like we have something to say. So "Better Broken," yeah, this is the title track. Actually, this is 14 years old. Really? Yeah, it was a song that was meant to go on my last record. And I think, I didn't have a bridge at the time. Okay. And we ran out of time, so I just archived it. And then when we were thinking about material for this new record, I had seven songs about a really ugly breakup that I went through. And that was like, you know, six or seven years ago. When I pulled them back out and I realized that, A, they weren't that good, and B, oh my God, I don't want to give that any energy. I'm so over it now.
You're glad you got it out of your body? I got it out of my body. And you're done. It was good therapy to write those songs, but nobody needs to hear them. Yeah, well, that's good. I feel like that's a good self-awareness. The self-editing is not always... Yeah. People aren't always good at that. No, well, I mean, unfortunately, it meant I didn't have enough material for the record. But, you know, getting into the studio, creativity begets more creativity. Yeah. And it was easy to... There was a bunch of other ideas that just kind of, you know, came to fruition quite quickly, being in that kind of environment. But "Better Broken" was, yeah, the very first song. And it's funny that it ended up being the title track and the title of the record, but it kind of is really apt, you know, for getting to 57,
you know, all the challenges and struggles that we all face as humans. The loss of both my parents and my brother to cancer, you know, disastrous failed marriage and relationships, you know, and challenges with my children, like, normal things. Look, I'm really, I'm lucky and blessed. I lived this ridiculous life because of music, but, you know, we still... You have a life. Have hard shit we have to deal with. And it's all relative, so having music has been an incredible outlet. That's great. And the idea of being better from all those challenges that we face. You know, you have to pick yourself back up and keep moving forward and figure out how to do better and be better. Yeah. So, resilience. That's right. That is the name of the game. Amen.
You know what? I'm gonna put the damper on, because it just settles it a little bit. I kind of like that mute. Yeah.
Maybe if I catch my breath Maybe if I wait a little I'd remember how it hurts And stop before I fall
I'd forget to come apart Catch myself and hold on tightly Let memory wash over me Forgive, but don't forget You come back to me begging why'd you leave? Tell me why? How could you let this go? Let it be all it is Small and still a memory like a stone A jagged edge made smooth by time
Let it be all it is Small and still a better left alone Some things are better broken
Some things are better broken
Illusions come, venom stings Swirling visions, soft and perfect You blur all the edges Till everything's fine
I'll pretend I didn't cry And you'll pretend that you're my savior We both remember what we want To get us through the night So don't come back to me begging why'd you leave? Tell me why? How could you let this go? Let it be all it is Small and still a memory like a stone A jagged edge made smooth by time
Damn, that feels good to sing. Right? See? It's the best. Music is magic. We met at the Bridge School of Benefit. Yeah. That's the only time we've met. I think that is the only time. Yeah. And that was so fun, hanging with you then. Those were magic. They were. I think I did three of those over the years. And what an incredible, eclectic crew of musicians. Yeah. I remember Ray LaMontagne. From that one? I don't know. I don't know. It might not have been the year. I think that was a different one, maybe. And he, I mean, I'm a massive, massive fan of his. And, you know, I was trying not to sob, listening to him perform. And we shared very briefly, same manager, Michael McDonald. And so I got to meet him afterwards with Michael.
And he was just beating himself up and berating himself for the shitty job he had done. And I'm just like, I took him by the lapels. And I'm like, are you fucking crazy? You are so talented. My God, you're stopping so hard on yourself. And I was like, OK, don't touch the man. Artists are so tortured sometimes. We have no idea. I mean, I guess we do from their music sometimes, but not really. I mean, and I know...
In some ways, we need that to propel us forward.
Like, I've, I've grown up with a healthy dose of self-loathing that I think has, you know, pushed me to, to be better and to just work, work really hard at making this your absolute best, or you suck. There's, there's no middle ground. It's either you suck and you're an idiot, or it's fucking great.
Yeah, exactly. Would you tell me a little bit more about the music schools?
Yeah, sure. So, um, it started almost 24 years ago. I took a, a big chunk of the money that I made during Lilith Fair, put it into a foundation. I mean, we gave over $7 million to charities, national and local women's charities.
For Lilith?
From Lilith.
Wow, that's amazing.
Yeah, so, so I really wanted to continue that legacy of giving.
Um, so, I looked around, trying to think, at the time, I wasn't even sure what I wanted to do with it. I just knew I wanted to figure something out. And all the public schools were cutting their music programs.
This is in Canada?
This is in Canada, yeah. And I mean, I think it's kind of the same everywhere. The arts are the, kind of the first thing to go. And I saw this happening, and I thought about what music did for me, growing up. And, I mean, basically, it saved my life. I don't think I'd be here if I hadn't have had that, that, that medicine, that, that salve, that safe space where I could just be myself and actually have something that I knew I was good at and that fed me and gave me a sense of my own worth. So, to think that kids didn't have that opportunity, just felt like, oh, we're, this whole generation is going to be missing out on something really profoundly important. Like, our, our social, emotional growth, our sense of where we sit in the world and, and our, you know, our, our understanding of empathy and of each other.
Like, all those things come into play when you, when you create music, especially when you work together.
Um, so, making a kind of music, making a music school seem like the, the right choice.
That's so cool. So, it's an all-encompassing, it's from the ground up, it's its own thing?
It's its own thing, yeah. So, it's, it's an after-school music and mentorship program.
Yeah, so, um, I opted out of working with the school system. I thought, I'm gonna stay out of it. It's just, there's so much bureaucracy.
So, I thought, I'm just gonna do something independently of it. And, um, it's for at-risk and our sort of children, youth. So, socioeconomic is the first barrier to break down, but obviously, social, emotional as well. But it's completely free, always has been, always will be, and, um... We started with 200 kids in a pilot project and there's now over 1,200 students a year, over three schools in three different cities.
Yeah. It's an incredible thing to be part of. Like, I can be having the crappiest day and I'll go into the school and everybody's happy and smiling and talking and laughing and every room has different music being made and it's just very joyful.
That's so great. It's all over the map in terms of, um...
The curriculum's very, it's very flow.
Like, it's depending on, um, six kids to one teacher. And the whole first year is all fundamental, so they kind of come in and they learn every instrument and just kind of get a bit of a foundation and then they branch off into various instruments and if they want private lessons, they can have that.
Oh, that's cool. So you don't have to start that way?
Does it start at a young age and go all the way through high school?
So, school's grade four through 12.
But we have a pretty vibrant alumni program too, because, you know, 18 kids time out of the system and all of a sudden they're adults and they're...
They're not and there needs to be a bridge.
And is it, at this point, is it like a nonprofit that you raise, have to raise money for...
Yeah, our annual operating budget's 3.2 million. It's not cheap.
Wow. So if anybody wants to donate to it, they can go to...
Yeah, sarahschoolofmusic.com.
We have a 501(c)(3) here in the States, Friends of Sarah McLachlan Society, which you can donate to here in the States and you get a fully refundable, or tax receipt. And yeah, it's, I mean, I've been fundraising for the last 24 years for it. You know, some years, it's like all the gigs I do, that money goes into the foundation, goes like, oh, we're short, okay, I gotta go do another gig.
Yeah, that sounds amazing.
Yeah, it's really, really fun to be part of.
I want to come visit the school. Next time I'm up there.
Oh, please.
Yeah, it would be fun.
Yeah, if you want to come do a little workshop or anything like that, I would hook you up in a hot second.
I'm not a great teacher. I don't know if I would be a good teacher.
I'm a terrible teacher, too.
It would be fun to do something.
Just talk to kids, talk to, you know, some of the high schoolers, as I said, like, there's a few who really do want to pursue music and it's really good for them to be able to talk to someone who's in the industry and, you know, understands the challenges and just, you know, have someone to shoot the shit with.
And most of the kids just, they just want a safe place to come and they get fed every day and have a community.
It's good for kids to have a place to go after school.
Well, a lot of their parents, if they have two parents, they're both working. You know, and they come home to an empty house and there's no food sometimes. You know, we had a couple of years ago, there was a mom, we didn't know what was going on and she was living in the car, living in her car with her daughter. You know, so one of the cool things as well is we have a lot of community partners and we're able to offer assistance in other ways.
It's a community. It's very much about the music even.
It's very much a community.
Being a community safe place.
Yeah, it's hard being a teenager. It's isolating and lonely and social media is awful.
I'm terrified of my kids getting to that place now.
Yeah, it's just, it's so scary. They're so besieged constantly with negativity and misinformation.
And you raised two girls, right?
I raised two daughters.
And they were right at the perfect age for it to be extra.
Yeah, so my first born was just, it was at the beginning of social media. And she was deeply affected.
The Wild West.
It was, well, it still is, honestly, it still is. And my little one, because I think she had dance, she was just too busy to be so involved in it. But my first born for sure got taken a little bit more by it and was really influenced by it and, you know, felt judged and which is, social media is a rating system, right? You post yourself a picture in a bikini, you get 100 likes. You post a picture in a turtleneck and you're like, oh, why are you so boring?
So messed up.
Oh, God. You know, I just think about how easily influenced I was as a teenager and as a young adult. I'm so thankful I didn't have to deal with that.
Same. The Lilith Fair documentary, is that out?
Yeah, well, it's, yeah, we debuted a TIF last week.
Last Sunday, I think, and which was super exciting. It's amazing, like, I obviously have seen all the iterations of it as we were editing. But to watch it on the big screen.
There's this weird kind of disconnect for me of like, I know that's me.
I was wondering how that felt.
Obviously, this like massive pride and like, just, I still can't quite put into words how cool it is to have something that you were part of. Encapsulated and in such a beautiful succinct manner in a motion picture. Basically a talk inventory for all to see. And it's so joyful and beautiful. And you know, and of course, you know, you talked about all the challenges, all the things that people wanted it to be or didn't want it to be.
Yeah, did you have to fight through a lot?
Yeah, I mean, I had to defend it every step of the way, every day.
What year was the first Lilith fair?
Uh, 1997.
So it was the year Surfing came out?
Literally, Surfing came out, I think, a week after the first show at the Gorge.
Oh, wow.
Yeah, which was crazy because I had never, you know, didn't really know how to headline a festival.
Um, and I was so excited about the new record that we played the whole new record. At the end of a long day of music, now you as a musician will know that probably didn't go over very well.
It didn't though?
Nobody knew the song.
But they were so excited and they're such great songs.
Yeah, but nobody knew them. No, they were tired and they wanted the stuff that they were familiar with.
Yeah, yeah.
So it fell flat on its face and I was like, I just, I felt like it did.
The first one.
Just my part, my performance at the end of the night, I think I was probably exhausted too. Because, you know, you're trying to maintain your energy over the entire day. And you're basically, you know, you're up in the morning, it's go, go, go the whole day. So, um, yeah, we quickly pivoted and put a bunch of older material back in and then it was off to the races. But, uh, yeah, that was, it was an incredible time that that record just, I think, very much because of Lilith and just getting out to this massive audience that I would never have been able to play in front of. It hadn't been for all of us agreeing and sharing our audiences and bringing our, you know, bringing ourselves together and to have way bigger audiences.
What was your moment where you, you had the idea?
Um, the year before, uh, I wanted to do some shows in the summer. I felt like I don't want to have all the responsibility, I don't want to do a big tour. Wouldn't it be nice if maybe we have Paula Cole come again? A guy had opened up, Paula Cole had opened up for me and there's all these other artists that are so cool.
You just want to hang out.
I just want to hang out, like it's a weird business, right? And we're surrounded by men. And I love my guys, I love my band, I love my crew, but I just thought, this is, I miss that, that community that I think exists out there. And I want to be able to talk to my peers about this crazy job that we have. And I want to sing with them, too. So, let's be honest. So, you know, putting it together was like, we talked to a couple of promoters that we knew really well, and they're like, "Well, okay, I don't know if this is going to work, because you're not supposed to put two and back to back on a tour." I'm like, "Well, I..." Yeah, you laugh out loud. But Irie had done that.
That's what you had to fight.
That's what I had to fight. So, we incurred all the risk, the financial risk. We did four shows. Everyone sold out. And it was very successful. So then we went, "This is amazing. This is so much fun. Let's do it next summer as a full, full tour."
Like, all these other, you know, festivals are completely male dominated.
Like, why aren't women being represented? There, you know, there's, all these women having huge success in their own genres of music. So, we'll just do it ourselves.
It was massive.
And then all the promoters were like, "Oh, no, no, no, you can't do that." I'm like, "Well, we just did, and we sold out all these, we sold out these four markets as a test run." And I'm like, "Well, yeah, but no, I don't think you can." I'm like, "Oh, you know, so when someone tells me I can't..."
How old were you?
I was 28.
And it's amazing.
And, you know, that was my, my mother, you know, in the back of my head going, "Why would you even try? You're going to fail. You know, you can't, you can't do this. Don't, don't go thinking you're anything special."
Yes, I can.
And honestly, that was the thing that propelled me. It's like, "I'm going to prove, I want to prove my mother wrong that I wasn't going to, with my record late, with my record contract, I wasn't going to come home pregnant or on drugs." And, you know, because that was her thing. It's like, "Well, you're just going to, you're going to fail, and you're going to, you're going to mess up your life."
Oh, that's so sad.
Yeah, I mean, that...
The language.
That was her cross to bear. You know, like, she was just very afraid for me, and that's how it was articulated.
But I wanted to prove her wrong. And I came back nine months later with a record. And then, "Look, no, no needle marks, Mom, I'm still good."
Oh, man.
But so the same thing with all these guys saying, "You can't do that." I'm like, "Well, we just did, and fuck you."
So, the year is 1997, and I got dropped off at college in Denton, Texas. And I, I must have gone out for food or something, and I, and I didn't know anybody. And I, well, that's a lie, I didn't know people. But at that night, that night I was alone and I, I came back and I remember being in the parking lot of my new dorm, in my car, and I was listening to the college radio, and "Angel" comes on.
And I will never forget hearing a song for the first time as much as that song.
Cause it was, it was like, the stars were out, it was just a crazy moment in my life, and the song is just, you know, one of the best songs, I think.
Yeah, it's just.
I love it.
It's such a beautiful song.
And I don't, you know, I don't know anything about how it came to be or how you recorded it, I, I, I just knew that it hit me right, right in the heart that night, and I've just always loved you since then.
Oh, thank you. Well, honestly, that's kind of how it came out.
That's, that's what it sounds like.
I have never been prolific at all. Writing is a slow, painful process.
Especially lyrics, and I had actually, I had read a Rolling Stone article about Jonathan Melvoin, the keyboard player from Smashing Pumpkins, who died, OD'd on heroin. And I had just come off the road of two and a half years, I was exhausted, the record label was screaming for a new record, and so I sequestered myself away in a little cottage in the Laurentians, Kate and Anna McGaragels cottage. And tried to write, and I, you know, I couldn't, or I was blocked, so I went and got a bunch of magazines and started reading. Anyway, so I read this article, and I just had this flood of overwhelm, and empathy, and sadness, and, and, and understanding.
I've, I've never done heroin, I never will, but just that desperate need to find some kind of release.
And some kind of escape. And that song came out in like, a day and a half.
Start to finish.
The best ones do, don't you think?
Opened, I was merely a vessel, you know? I just, the universe opened up, and I got to be the conduit, and it's, it's still one of my very favorite songs. Like, I, I never tire of playing it, I don't tire of hearing it. I think the energy that has been created by it going out in the world, like, I've had over the years, so many people. Like, connect with it in so many different profound levels.
You know, in hard times in their life when it's like, you know, this was, this is what we played when my mother passed.
As hard as that was, it gave us comfort and, you know, that's
I could see that.
Amazing validation as an artist to know that you've created something that has gone out in the world and in some small way made someone's really tough time a little easier.
Absolutely, it has for so many people. And of course, the ASPCA campaign.
For a whole lot of dogs and cats, too.
Whole lot of animals.
They've raised so much money with that campaign.
Yeah, I think it kind of changed the face of fundraising a little bit. I had no idea.
It's amazing.
Honestly, it was like, you know, I had a couple hours free and my friend was on the board. She said, hey, we're thinking about having a celebrity endorsement. You want to do this? I'm like, yeah, I love animals.
I love animals.
I'll do this. Honestly, I had, and then you pair the song with those images.
Oh, God, it's like, just a tearjerker.
And I remember, you know, I was, um, this is what I'm like. I'm kind of a goofball. And I remember the director just going, I'm just a little more earnest. You know, and I'm like, oh, fuck, this is killing me. You know, and then, of course, memes are created.
Yeah. Oh, I didn't, I didn't see the memes, but.
No, it's funny, you know, it's like, you know, I remember someone said, hi, I'm Sarah McLachlan, and I'm about to ruin your day.
Oh, yeah. No, that's funny.
But you gotta take it.
But it worked like a hot damn.
You gotta take it.
Because it worked.
Yep, it worked.
Really, really well.
Producer, songwriter, guitarist and co-founder of Chic. But in this series, he's hitting the road to sit down with some of today's most fascinating artists. From hitmakers like Miguel to rising stars like Alex Warren, Niall explores the stories behind the careers, the songs and the moments that changed everything. Because every artist can point to that turning point. The moment before the breakthrough, before the success, before everything changed. Through candid conversations and personal stories, you'll hear what happened before the moment that made them who they are today. Listen to Before the Moment, a Lincoln Original Series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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Well, I love this song and I asked you if you would, if you would consider doing a song from that album. You could, you could have said any song from that album. I know them all so well. So I'm glad you picked this song.
Yeah. Do you wanna, do you wanna sing the, the second verse?
Yay!
Do the whole second verse for me.
Okay, I might cry, but I'm gonna try not to.
What about the last chorus? Do you wanna, um, do you mind if I sneak in on a harmony?
Okay, cuz I've, I've only practiced that harmony, you know, for
A few times?
Twenty, twenty something years.
I wanna hear you sing wherever you want to sing.
It's in D flat. Also, what a key. Do you do it lower?
Oh my god, I dumbed it down to D because
Oh, that's up even. Dang, girl.
Yeah. Yeah, I, I don't know what the hell I was thinking.
It's all good.
It's a really hard key.
Because you have a very high crystal voice. And, and I was actually singing along. I was like, I don't know if my voice can go that high anymore.
I'm not sure if I can anymore.
But also, I was wondering, like, that break in your voice, you know, that, I don't know what you call it.
It's like a glottal stop or whatever goes from
It's not a yodel, but it's
Yeah, it kind of is though.
Kind of is, right?
Pushing from chest into head.
Have you always had that? Is that something you sort of like worked on at a certain point?
You know, quite honestly, I stole that from Peter Gabriel.
Yeah, that's awesome.
I'm not gonna lie. I was like, how does he do that? And I just found a way and like, oh, I can do that too.
And so I cultivated it.
Yeah, I talked to, I asked Gillian Welsh once where her yodel came from. She said, she said she taught herself to do that on a long cross-country trip once. I was like, oh, I didn't know I could like learn to do that. I guess it's a muscle. You just gotta train it.
Yeah, it's like pushing and pulling in there. I don't know quite how else to describe it, but
All right.
I don't know how I would explain it, but
No, you don't need to. Also, you know, you don't want to force it. It's natural.
You spend all your time waiting For that second chance For the break that would make it okay There's always some reason To feel not good enough And it's hard at the end of the day I need some distraction Oh, beautiful release Memories seep from my veins Let me be empty
Oh, weightless, baby I'll find some peace tonight
In the arms of the ages
Fly away from here From this dark, cold hotel room And the emptiness that you feel That you are home from the wreckage Of your silent reverie
You're in the arms of the angel Where you find some comfort here
So tired of the straight line
And every way you turn There's vultures and thieves at your back The storm keeps on twisting You keep on building lies That you make up for all that you lack You don't make no difference Escaping one last time It's easier to believe In this sweet madness All this glorious sadness
That brings me to my knees In the arms of the angel Fly away from here From this dark, cold hotel room
And the ancestors that you feed. Oh, you are born from the wreckage. Are we held silent or breathe? You're in the arms of the angel. May you find some comfort here.
You're in the arms of the angel. May you find some comfort here.
Thank you so much. So beautiful. Thank you. Oh, thank you. I love you. I'm just gonna say it. I know we've only met once before, but... It's okay. We got... I love you so much. Shared... Thanks for doing this. Shared things. Yes. Thank you. Oh, gosh, my pleasure. Your dream. It was really fun. Good. Good. Oh, that was so fun. God, so beautiful. What a dream. That was amazing. That was a high-up song. I might have cried a little. Did you? One single tear down my cheek. Just a oner.
That was a real honor. You know, she wanted to do songs from her new album and I was totally stoked. And I said, you know, if there's any way you could maybe do something from surfacing with me. It was just a really huge album for me at that time. She's like, oh, cool. I think Angel makes the most sense. And I was like, yes. I was so happy. Thanks, Sarah. If you'd like to know what songs we played in this episode, the first one was called Only Human from Sarah's album Better Broken, released in 2025. The second song was the title track from that same album, Better Broken. The third song was Angel from
the album Surfacing, released in 1997. Special thanks to Sarah McLachlan for joining us today. Norah Jones is Playing Along is a production of iHeart Podcasts. I'm your host, Norah Jones. Visit Norah Jones' channel and be sure to subscribe while you're there. This episode was recorded by Matt Marinelli, mixed by Jamie Landry, audio post-production and mastering by Greg Tobler, additional video by Kay Loggins, artwork by Eliza Frye, photography by Sherwin Laness, produced by Norah Jones and Sarah Oda. Executive producers, Erin Wong Kaufman and Jordan Runtog. Marketing lead, Queen Anaki. Thanks a lot for listening.
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