Vanessa Van Edwards: How to Turn Small Talk Into Real Connection

Vanessa Van Edwards once lost a dream TV deal over small talk. After 20 years of research, she knows how to turn small talk into real connection. On this episode, Kwame Christian sits down with Vanessa Van Edwards, behavioral researcher, founder of Science of People and bestselling author of Captivate and Cues, to unpack her new book, Conversation: How to Connect with Anyone & Make Every Interaction Count. A self-described "recovering awkward person," Vanessa shares the science-backed conversation skills that changed her life, from escaping conversation dead ends to asking the questions that build deeper relationships. If you've ever run out of things to say, overthought what to say next, or left a networking event feeling like you never really connected, this episode is for you. In this episode, you'll learn: - Why questions like "What do you do?" lead to conversation dead ends, and how to escape them - The 3 levels of conversation: putting people at ease, connecting deeply and creating meaning - The memoir question that sparks deeper conversations with the people who matter - How your self-story (redemption vs. contamination frames) shapes how you listen and talk - Why naming social cues calms your nerves, plus the body language that signals confidence - Why talking for more than 40 seconds can turn a conversation into a monologue - How to disagree respectfully and handle difficult conversations, even with family - How to turn nerves into "good nerves" before a negotiation or presentation - Constructive vs. deconstructive language: how to be authentically assertive - How AI, voice notes and podcasts are weakening our conversation muscles Recorded in partnership with The Ohio State University Moritz College of Law. Students from the school's new podcast, [STUDENT PODCAST NAME], join the conversation with questions on code switching, speaking a second language, fear in negotiations, toxic positivity and more. Connect with Vanessa Get Conversation by Vanessa Van Edwards: https://www.scienceofpeople.com/conversation/ Vanessa's website: https://www.scienceofpeople.com/conversation/ Connect with Kwame: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Request A Customized Workshop For Your Company⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Follow Kwame Christian on LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠negotiateanything.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Click here to buy your copy of Finding Confidence in Conflict: How to Negotiate Anything and Live Your Best Life!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ @kwamenegotiates across all social platforms #VanessaVanEdwards #SmallTalk #CommunicationSkills

• 0:00Speaker 00

  You know Vanessa Van Edwards, right? You know, the person who is known as one of the best communicators in the world. Did you know that she calls herself a recovering awkward person? And did you know that just like you and me, she has a horrendously awkward story? That propelled her to be who she is today?

• 0:19Speaker 01

  And so I was stuck in one of those conversational dead ends, didn't know it at the time. And I knew by the time I got to the presentation, I had lost them. And afterwards, I didn't hear back for a while, which is never a good sign. And I got a call that was, they just don't feel that you have the presence to carry the show. So they're gonna say no. And the crazy thing about that call is I knew they were right. Like it wasn't even, I wasn't even mad. I was like, they are right. Like there is something I am fundamentally missing about connecting with people. And a big part of the show was connecting with people. Like it wasn't just about the idea.

• 0:54Speaker 00

  Today, we're focusing on the conversation about conversation. Her book, I believe this is her magnum opus. When I read this book, I spent so much time getting into this. I took 30 pages of notes, reading this book. Every page was like a treasure chest filled with delightful information that I used immediately after reading it. So I'm telling you, I had high stakes conversations after reading this. I said, oh, Vanessa told me I could do this. Let me do it. Boom, conversation better. Next conversation, I tried a different thing. Boom, made it better. I'm telling you, I thought I was good at communication and I am. But this will make you better. I know because it made me better.

• 1:35Speaker 00

  I'm telling you, this might be the most important episode we have ever had on the podcast. Because the things that you will learn today will not just make your conversations better. It will make your relationships better and it'll help you to change your life and the lives of those around you.

• 1:50Speaker 01

  If you don't know yourself, how could you share it? Truthfully, someone else. So I had to dip into the intra-personal bucket. The question that I would start with, and maybe we could do this together, is beginning to identify who you are. So you can share it. And one of my favorite questions is, if you had to name your memoir, what would you name your memoir right now?

• 2:14Speaker 00

  So here's the thing that people don't talk about enough when it comes to communication and charisma. When it comes to these things, these are skills that you can learn. Vanessa was just like you and me, and now she is who she is because she took the time to learn from her mistakes and got better one conversation at a time. And in this episode, you're going to learn the secrets of the world's best communicators. You're going to learn how to connect with people. You're going to learn how to avoid those awkward silences. And it's all going to be based in science data and research. In this episode, you have the opportunity to learn from the best. Because when it comes to your big swing, I guarantee you, there is going to be a constellation of conversations that will either help you get there or get in your way.

• 2:59Speaker 00

  This, my friends, is a story of Vanessa Van Edwards. Welcome to Big Swings Only. Today's episode is brought to you by Shopify, Granola AI, Quince, and the Anxious Achiever Podcast. Stay present in your meetings. Get three months of Granola free at granola.ai/kwami. For your gift list, shopquince.com for free shipping and 365 day returns. And make sure to tell them that Kwami with Big Swings Only sent you. Subscribe to the Anxious Achiever today on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Do you have an idea that you want live for the holidays? Launch before Black Friday at Shopify.com/kwami.

• 3:40Speaker 00

  Listeners, here's an added bonus. This episode is very special because it is done in conjunction with the Ohio State University's Moore's College of Law, which has the number one dispute resolution program in the country. And the students that are running their new podcasts are in this episode as well, asking incredible questions. And they really elevated the conversation. So please give them a shout out, support their work, because it is going to be life changing.

• 4:08Speaker 00

  You know what that is? Those are my notes on your book. 30 pages, size 12, single space. It was delicious. I did not read it, I devoured it. It was so good, so good. What was my favorite part about it selfishly was that it, it kind of put me into a state that I, I don't get to go into as much as I like to. Especially with communication is going into that beginner's mind where just every page was like, oh my gosh, something new. Oh my gosh, something new. We could incorporate this in this type of way. And it's, it's really, really cool to see how you are even building on the all, the impressive thought and leadership that you already have. So kudos to you on this masterpiece.

• 4:51Speaker 01

  Oh my gosh, thank you, thank you. This, it's, I've been researching this for two decades, two decades. It was not ready. When I first got my first book deal for Captivate, it wasn't ready. So I wrote a different book where I wrote Captivate, which was great. And I was like, okay, next is going to be conversation. And then it still wasn't ready five years later. And then I wrote cues and so it literally, I kept getting book deals and like it just, it wasn't there yet. Because I had to study master conversationalists. I had, I had to find those people who had figured it out in the wild. Because research can only tell you so much about conversation, right? So it was like, I had to pair the research with hearing these very charismatic people in the wild.

• 5:36Speaker 01

  What kind of phrases were they using? What kind of pacing were they using? What was their approach to a difficult conversation, a high stakes conversation, silly conversation, a date, a negotiation? Right? Like, did you, Kwami, I don't know if you noticed, but I was very purposeful. I did like the most odd pairings. I had like a forgotten conversation between MLK and Lyndon B. Johnson, like critically historically important. And then like Love Island.

• 6:07Speaker 01

  You know, like it's both, conversation is both, it's good in both places.

• 6:12Speaker 00

  That's brilliant. Yeah, it was, it was great because you touched on every type of interaction that anybody would care about in a meaningful way. But in also a substantive way too. Because you brought in research, then you brought in legitimate anecdotal evidence. And then you also, when there wasn't any research, you did your own research, which was really, really important. And also, one of the things that I love that made it a lot more endearing and approachable was the fact that you describe yourself as a recovering awkward person. And you start off the book with a really great story that had me literally laughing out loud. Can you tell us about the Steves?

• 6:53Speaker 01

  The Steves, yes. So first, I should say, I was hiding this story for about 15, 12 years. I was so embarrassed about this that I did not share it. I did not share it on podcast. I think just like my husband and my agent knew. So I was really embarrassed about this story until I was writing this book. And I had this realization that we all have that moment where we feel like we lost an opportunity because there wasn't connection. And this was that moment for me. Major life moment, I got offered the chance to do a TV show with a major network that you would know. I will not mention them because I am an NDA, but a major network that you would know. And this was like the opportunity of a lifetime, right?

• 7:38Speaker 01

  Like this was everything that I could have ever wanted. And we had worked out the show, we'd worked out the treatment, we had all the details. I had like this great like reel that was going and like, okay, we just want you to come in, meet all the execs and we'll finalize the details of the show. Great. So I had prepared, and I'm a preparer, right? Like I love a good slide deck. I love bullet points and details. So of course I had prepared, quote, "the perfect presentation to present to these executives." A 15 slide deck presentation on the, on the show. And what I didn't prepare for was the few minutes of small talk before the pitch. I thought that everything was about the pitch. It just mattered once I showed them the idea.

• 8:21Speaker 01

  But what I didn't realize is that rapport is like a truth serum. Rapport is social lubricant. That before anyone can believe how smart you are or hear your great ideas, they have to be able to connect with you first. I did not understand that. And so I show up to the TV studio and I'm like in my head, right? I'm super anxious, I'm social overthinking and a guy walks up, let's call him Steve, because he looked like a Steve to me. And we're walking down this hallway and I'm telling you, it was the longest hallway I'd ever experienced in my life. I mean, it was like thousands of doors and I had to do this thing that I knew. I knew it was time for small talk.

• 9:04Speaker 01

  And so I was like, small talk, I can do small talk. And so I, how are you, Steve? Good Vanessa, how are you? Good, how are you? You know, just like total social autopilot. And he's like looking at me weird and I'm like, the weather, the weather is, is so bad today. Will it, will it be better tomorrow? Now, it was in LA, right? So like, you can only talk about the weather for a few seconds before it gets weird. And I just did not know what to talk about, right? So I was like, weather, weather. And then I kind of blackout, like I'm, I don't even know what I was talking about, but I, I knew it was not going well. Whatever happened to you or like you're in conversation and you just know, like you're just not clicking?

• 9:48Speaker 01

  And I get into the room and I'm like, okay. And like everyone looks like Steve when I get into the room. And I was like, okay, I'm just gonna dive into my presentation. And they're like, oh no, we just want to get to know you first. And I was like, what? And they, they tried, you know, they tried to get to know me, they tried to connect with me. And I was so focused on the presentation, the idea, I could not bond with them. I did not know how to get out of those, what I now call conversation dead ends. A conversation dead end is when someone asks you a question that is fact based. Where are you from? Where do you live? Got any kids? You married? What do you do? Right? They're, they're very socially scripted, one word answers.

• 10:32Speaker 01

  And someone is trying very hard to get to know you, but those are very hard to jump off of. And so you end up having this weird back and forth where you don't actually feel connected. You're just learning facts. And so I was stuck in one of those conversational dead ends, didn't know it at the time. And I knew by the time I got to the presentation, I had lost them. And afterwards, I didn't hear back for a while, which is never a good sign. And I got a call that was, they just don't feel that you have the presence to carry the show. So they're gonna say no.

• 11:04Speaker 01

  And the crazy thing about that call is I knew they were right. Like it wasn't even, I wasn't even mad. I was like, they are right. Like there is something I am fundamentally missing about connecting with people. And a big part of the show was connecting with people. Like it wasn't just about the idea.

• 11:21Speaker 01

  And that was the start of really trying to understand what makes a good conversation. How do we feel connected? How do we escape those conversational dead ends? And that was the story. I was sweating while I was writing it. That's my opening story, as you know. I was like, I was like, I could feel the anxiety. It's horrible. I'm so glad it made you laugh, though.

• 11:43Speaker 00

  Yes, it did. It did. And I'm so glad we can laugh at it now. Because the thing is, you have taken that and turned it into something that propelled you into who you are today. Which is fascinating, because the thing is, a lot of people, they speak in terms of absolute identity. Where they say, I am awkward, I don't like these interactions, things like that. And it's the, you know, we have to think in terms of the growth mindset versus the fixed mindset. But when it comes to human interaction, the way we communicate with each other, for some reason, people can have a growth mindset in so many other things in their life, but a fixed mindset and blind to the fixed mindset when it comes to the way that they interact with people.

• 12:27Speaker 00

  I'm wondering for you, as a fellow behavioral nerd, when it comes to this.

• 12:33Speaker 01

  Totally. Love a nerd, yeah.

• 12:34Speaker 00

  What is it that helps people, that causes people to be so growth oriented in so many areas of their life, but completely blind to the fact that this is a skill that they can develop?

• 12:46Speaker 01

  Okay, so I firmly believe there are facts and there are frames. And there are people who see the facts of their life, the facts of who they are, the facts of a situation, and they leave it at that, right? They, they're, you know, I'm, I'm an introvert, I'm good with people, I am a lawyer, and I'm organized. Right? Like, they see those as facts. I think that there are another group of people who see frames of those facts. And the research shows that there are kind of two different frames. There are people with redemption frames, and there are people with contamination frames. People with redemption frames are always growth.

• 13:27Speaker 01

  So no matter what the fact is, they're always thinking, it might take some hard work, it might take some grit, it might take some resilience, but I will overcome. People with contamination frames are very fixed. They feel that no matter their hard work, no matter how much they try, or how much grit or resilience they have, they won't overcome. They typically feel more, they take a more passive role in their life. So the facts are happening to them, as opposed to them writing their own facts. So in my research, this actually leaks out in conversation.

• 14:01Speaker 01

  People with redemption mindsets, redemption frames, they give you what I call narrative hints. These are hints about how they see themselves. And I am always listening for these hints. So it sounds like this, you know, I'm just, I'm always, always the one behind. Oh my gosh, you know, I'm, I'm, I just feel so lucky. I'm so lucky. Right? Like, lucky, feeling like you're seeing opportunities that tend to be more redemption narrative hints versus superlatives like always and never tend to be fixed mindsets. I don't want to judge anyone for having either of these, because actually, your own history determines what kind of frame you have. And that's, we need to respect that.

• 14:43Speaker 01

  What's really important, though, is people at least are, become aware of the frame that they have. That they are actually, their self narratives are self-creating. I believe the story you tell yourself about yourself creates your story. And the research shows this as well, that if you see yourself as very lucky, you literally see the world differently. So in conversation, lucky people, they listen differently. They're literally always listening for growth, they're listening for learning tidbits, they're listening for things that they could change or aha moments. They literally listen to their person differently. They also ask very different questions. When you take someone with a redemption narrative, a really redemption frame, the types of questions they ask are so different than fixed folks.

• 15:28Speaker 01

  Fixed folks tend to focus more on facts. Right? Like, they want the chronology of your life, not the interpretation of your life. So your fixed folks, they're gonna ask more fact-based questions. They're listening to know, as opposed to listening to connect. Those are very different experiences if you're in a conversation with them, right? If someone, if you're talking to someone who has a redemption or growth mindset, you're probably learning together. You're probably having mutual aha moments. You might even craft more inside jokes. I've noticed anecdotally that people with growth mindsets, they tend to have a lot more inside lingo, inside lingo, inside lexicon.

• 16:12Speaker 01

  Whereas people with fixed mindsets, they want to get it right. They're, they're very focused on getting it right. And so they are the ones who will Google fact-check you when you're talking.

• 16:23Speaker 01

  They're the ones who are trying to understand the facts so that they don't feel as scared. And the last thing I was gonna say about this is, I think all of this comes from a fear place. You know, the reason why sometimes people have a contamination frame is because they've been hurt. They're really afraid of that happening again. And so their way of protecting themselves in conversation is be in the know. Know all the things. Like, if I understand everything about this person, I'll be okay and I won't be surprised. Whereas someone with a redemption frame, they're afraid to. They're often afraid of not feeling liked. They're a little bit more focused on being liked.

• 17:07Speaker 01

  And so they're trying to connect and build inside jokes because they really want to be liked. They really want to feel like they belong. Neither are right or wrong, but man, your conversations are gonna be very different.

• 17:18Speaker 01

  That was a very long answer, sorry.

• 17:19Speaker 00

  Oh, this is exactly what I want to hear.

• 17:22Speaker 01

  You have redemption. You have redemption. You're a redemption frame, right?

• 17:26Speaker 00

  That's true, for sure, for sure. But it's also learned. And I think this is one of the many parts of the book that can be so inspiring when people understand the depth of it. Because, again, that's an element that can be learned. What I always say is that you are the author of your own life, and your job is to write the best story you can, but also recognize that your story is going to have a co-author named fate, who will jump in and write something down and then bounce. You have this, and you say, okay, well, my job is to write a better story. And so, the hero was down, and now that was the best thing ever, because there we go. And it becomes this, this never-ending game.

• 18:06Speaker 00

  And speaking to what you talked about luck, for me, I think about luck as both a skill and a strategy, but the skill is seeing it. There was this study, and I'm going to mess up the numbers, but you'll understand the spirit of the study. There was a study where they had two people, like, two groups of people. People who self-identified as lucky and people who self-identified as unlucky. And then they gave them a newspaper, and their goal was, the task was to count how many images are in the newspaper. And so when they looked at the average time, the lucky people, well, the unlucky people, it took them about five minutes or so to count all of the images. But the lucky people, it took them about 15 seconds or something like that. And it was because they see it differently.

• 18:48Speaker 00

  So the, on the second page, there was a big, bold box that said, stop counting, there are 50 images in this newspaper. And the lucky people see it, the unlucky people don't. And once you recognize that, like you said, it's a frame that you can shift with intentionality, then your whole life changes because you start to see the world differently.

• 19:13Speaker 01

  I also think self-authorship is a concept, like, you know, social media calls it main character energy, which I also love, right? And so, let's talk about some very practical tools you can use here. So this is a very deep concept, right? Redemption versus contamination narratives. Some very practical tools is in conversation with people, asking questions like, are you lucky? Do you feel lucky? Right? You can do this when they have a new project, they're going to Vegas, right? Like, it's actually a question that can come up organically if you're listening for opportunities to use it. Someone's answer to that question is going to tell you a lot about that person, right? So, oh yes, I am so lucky. Okay, you know that they're probably optimistic, they probably have a redemptive narrative.

• 19:55Speaker 01

  They are going to see different opportunities, and they're probably more growth mindset. If someone hesitates, ooh, am I lucky? Am I lucky? They're probably in a pivotal moment of their life where they are assessing their life choices.

• 20:13Speaker 01

  This is anecdotal, but if someone is like, they're really thinking about this. And I've asked this question to thousands of people. They're really thinking about it. They have not decided yet, and then they got to meet you. Right? And you get to maybe, just maybe, guide them to self-authorship. And the way that we get to self-authorship, knowing that you're the author of your own story through conversation, that's how we get there, is talking to someone else and asking and answering questions about, am I driving my life? Okay, maybe I can't control the facts that always happen to me. Maybe I can't control if I get a raise or if I get a promotion. And I mentioned earlier, I didn't get into the school of my dreams. I couldn't control that. I did the best I could, but I couldn't control it. But how I interpret it mattered, right?

• 20:56Speaker 01

  How I interpreted it then and how I interpret it now. So conversation is how we guide someone to decide. It doesn't matter the facts. It matters your frame and how you see it. And then, of course, if they say, no, my gosh, I've been so unlucky recently. Then you also have opportunity to explore why. And so I think that's a really practical question. Another one is whenever anything happens to someone, like a fact, something bad happens, is asking someone, you know, how do you interpret that? You know, does that change your perspective on life? Does it change your theme? Like, you can literally ask someone how they interpret the facts of their own life, and it's very helpful because it's allowing them to step back. Like, that question is a gift because you're basically asking them to just take a quick

• 21:40Speaker 01

  step back from the own fact of their life and give it a reevaluation. So I like using different techniques in conversation to actually help enable someone's self-authorship.

• 21:50Speaker 00

  Amazing. And I've got great news. We've got our first student question. Sydney has a question. Awesome. Please come to the stage, ask your question.

• 22:01Speaker 02

  Yes, so I love what you said when you were kind of explaining the difference between people who have more so of growth mindsets versus fixed mindsets. But I was wondering if you think that the environment that a person is in kind of or could influence which mindset they have? Because I know personally, for me, I feel like in professional development settings, when I get to speak to professionals who are maybe working in career paths that I'm interested in, I approach those types of conversations with more so of a growth mindset. But when I'm in the classroom and, you know, we're, we're speaking on a topic, maybe I have more so of a fixed mindset, kind of being a lot more reserved, like, when wanting to speak up or offer my opinion.

• 22:46Speaker 02

  So can you speak to if, in your experience or your research, whether the environment that you're in can also impact the mindset that you have?

• 22:55Speaker 01

  I actually think this is a great comparison. We're talking about, it's actually not growth or fixed mindset. What you're talking about is actually your communication style. So growth and fixed mindset is internal, right? It's how you're interpreting facts. And that can be a little bit different, but still, learning is learning, right? If you're in a classroom, you're still learning. But actually, I think what you're talking about is a communication style, which is, if you're in a collaborative setting, right? You're, you're with friends, you're in a study group, you're in a collaborative brainstorm session with colleagues, that is an external communication style. You're, you're verbalizing. Extroverts tend to thrive in those settings. Introverts tend to struggle in those settings, simply because introverts usually need more

• 23:36Speaker 01

  time to internally process before they share, whereas extroverts tend to verbalize out loud and figure it out as they're verbalizing. Just very different approaches. In a classroom setting, you're being given, being given information by a teacher or a TA or someone who's up front. And so you have to, out of respect, have a more introverted communication style. I wouldn't even say introverted, to have a, a listening communication style because you're absorbing. I think that is good. That is really good. Like, we want to be able to adapt our communication style to the environment we're in. Actually, that's a micro-social skill. Very charismatic people are doing exactly what you just asked about. They're like, oh, wow, I'm in a peer setting.

• 24:19Speaker 01

  Great, I'm gonna raise my hand first. I'm gonna take the ball. I'm gonna lead everyone in an icebreaker. I'm gonna go through our agenda. Like, that's a micro-social skill to know when to step up with their communication style versus, whoa, I'm in a learning setting and I know, I'm the, I'm the person who knows the least amount in this room. So I want to learn from everyone else in this room, and I'm gonna actually go into listening mode. I'm gonna go into absorbing mode. That is such a skill, like that flexibility in communication style. I think that flexibility, social flexibility, is such an under-talked-about micro-skill, and it is incredibly useful in conversation because your conversation with your boss is gonna look different than a peer.

• 25:02Speaker 01

  Your conversation with a teacher or professor is gonna look different than on a podcast. My conversations right now, like if Kwame and I were having lunch together, it would not be this.

• 25:11Speaker 00

  Right.

• 25:12Speaker 01

  Right? When we had dinner together a few weeks ago, it was not this, right? Right? And so I, I know that I'm expected in an interview to speak longer. I would never normally speak this long in my conversational turn at dinner, right? But I know that this is the setting that we're in. So I think that being flexible is actually a great thing. So your question implies something great, which is that you already observed that you need to have flexible social skills, and that works. Yeah, that's great.

• 25:39Speaker 00

  Brilliant. And Sydney, let me ask, ask you a follow-up question here. So when you were asking the question, are you thinking about it kind of in a similar vein to code-switching?

• 25:49Speaker 02

  That is a really good question. No, because I don't think that I'm, I think it's more so, what resonated more so with me was the aspect of like fear, the idea that like people with certain mindsets have been hurt in certain settings. And so I'm like, I wonder if there's something that happened when I was in a classroom setting, whether I gave the wrong answer or the professor's response or facial expression made me feel a type of way to where I felt like I have to kind of more so center my thoughts and my ideas before I express them in the classroom, opposed to when I'm in environments of professional development where usually those professionals, because I am a student, are so open to pouring into me and sharing their experience.

• 26:33Speaker 02

  So I feel more comfortable just being able to, you know, throw out my ideas to them because I feel like it might be a safer space to land. So whereas code-switching, I think is more so like a internal overthinking in every environment, like, do I have to show up a certain way?

• 26:51Speaker 00

  Yes. Oh, this is delicious. Vanessa, you want to take first shot?

• 26:56Speaker 01

  No, I, Kwame, I, it's so amazing that you just mentioned code-switching because it's on my list to do a deep dive on it because I don't mention code-switching in the book. But I think it's a really important topic. Can you share your opinion on this? Because I think there is so much here. And also, maybe I'll bring you on my channel to talk about it. But yes, can you?

• 27:13Speaker 00

  Let's do it.

• 27:13Speaker 01

  You go first.

• 27:14Speaker 00

  So, so Sydney, let me tell you this too. Code-switching, when used improperly, can be overthinking, but when used properly, it is, properly and authentically, it is a superpower. So code-switching technically falls under cultural intelligence, what in cultural intelligence we would call mimicry. So you have to have an authentic version of yourself within every environment in order to code-switch effectively. So the way that you talk to your parents or grandparents is going to be naturally different than the way that you talk to your friends. You're not overthinking, you just understand how the cultural nuances in order to shift appropriately based on that situation. Code-switching gets out of whack when you don't have an authentic version of yourself within that environment, so you feel as though you're acting inauthentic.

• 27:59Speaker 00

  And so the key is twofold, internal and external. So internally, it's to spend more time in those uncomfortable environments so you can find the natural, authentic version of yourself within that new environment. And then externally, it brings in a more DEI-related question as it relates to inclusion, whether or not we're creating spaces where people who are different feel that they can be themselves, whether or not they have, they, they feel authentic in that environment. So that's one thing. And then the other thing too, just kudos to you for having the self-awareness of processing law school trauma in real time, because it took me about a decade to figure out what was happening. Because I will, this is a professor I love dearly, I won't name the name, but he said something interesting. I think this was after school.

• 28:43Speaker 00

  He said, "Every year, I swear that I'm going to get ahead of holiday shopping. This year, it started with a Quince cashmere sweater that I bought for myself. It was so soft, so well-made, and my first thought was, who else on my list needs one? Quince makes high-quality staples with 100% Mongolian cashmere and Italian leather, and their cashmere sweaters start at just $60. All of it is 50 to 80% less than similar brands because they work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. As a negotiator, I know a great deal when I see one. This is luxury quality without the luxury price tag. I use Quince, and you should too. Give the gift of quality this season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or just go to quince.com.

• 29:28Speaker 00

  Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Kwame with Big Swings only. That's the best way to support the show. If you were going to take a big swing this holiday season and start a business, what would you build? Maybe it's that one idea that you can't stop thinking about. I've built a business from the ground up, and I can tell you that the hard part isn't the idea, it's getting it live. That's where Shopify comes in. You can sell everywhere people shop, online, in person, across social media, even in AI chats. And Shopify Checkout with Shop Pay converts up to 36% higher than the competition, so

• 30:11Speaker 00

  more of the people who show up actually buy. Plus, Black Friday is when more people are already shopping and ready to buy, so the sooner you're live, the better. If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to Shopify.com/Kwame to start your free trial. That's Shopify.com/Kwame. Go to Shopify.com/Kwame to hear your first

• 30:34Speaker 00

  He said, you know, sometimes when we cold call on students and then they give an answer that's wrong, they would say, oh, interesting. And he's like, listen, I don't find any anything interesting about being wrong. If you're wrong, you're wrong.

• 30:50Speaker 00

  I think, I think everybody has a little bit of law school trauma, because the thing is, we, there is a social penalty of being wrong publicly on all levels. If we are wrong, the professor might call us out. We might feel silly in front of our classmates. When we take the bar exam, if we, if we fail, then that's a public failure. We don't even get to the, the benefit or the dignity to fail in private for the, the most important test of our life. And so there is a, a gun-shyness that comes from being in this environment that works well for being in a legal type of environment, but outside, it can make us really hesitant to connect and be ourselves. So it's really good that you're recognizing

• 31:33Speaker 00

  that distinction. And the key is to recognize that this is a very unique environment that you're in. There will never again be an environment just like this. So be, be aware of it, but don't let it dim your glow and stifle your ability to connect with other people.

• 31:51Speaker 01

  I, I, okay. So we have to dive into this further. I think there is an underlying physiological mechanism that is happening that can cause you to feel that you have to code switch. And I think it's helpful to understand our physiology because then you're like, oh, there was an innate reaction happening. It was my, my chemistry. For example, one study did something really cruel to their participants, which is they brought people into their lab and they had someone in the room flash them a cue of social rejection. A cue of social rejection could be a, it could be an eye roll. It could be like a, a dismissive scoff or nod. So they had them flash the unsuspecting participant, this

• 32:35Speaker 01

  social rejection cue. And then they measured what happened to the participant. The participant, before they even really consciously realized they got a social rejection cue, their field of vision, their pupils dilated, their field of vision increased. Meaning the moment they saw that, received that social rejection cue, their eyes dilated so they could take in more of their environment. Who else is sending me a cue of social rejection? Or what's my escape route? So their body went into a responsive mode already. That's going to have all kinds of ripple effects physiologically. So if you walk into a room where you're, you, you feel your professor or you feel your boss give you a, a, any kind of negative cue,

• 33:18Speaker 01

  maybe not even social rejection, maybe dismissal, or they're tired and you interpret that as a cue of social rejection, your body is reacting before your mind even does. And then all of a sudden, you feel uneasy. Like, why? I feel like, ooh, you start to kind of feel out of breath. Maybe you, your hands start to sweat a little bit. You get that uneasy nervous feeling. Maybe you have a little bit more cortisol. We don't want cortisol when we're performing, especially when we're about to answer a question or do a presentation, right? That gives us dry mouth. It slows down our thinking. It makes our endurance less. And then we start really overthinking, right? So it's, it's, there's two things here to

• 33:59Speaker 01

  think about, which is noticing the cues that are being sent to us and being able to label them is quite empowering because it gives you the choice on how you want to reply, how you want to respond. That study fascinated me when I, when I read that study. I went, wow, there are so many things being sent to us that can affect us, even if our mind is right, even if we are super prepared, it is affecting our physiology. And then my second question was, what do we do about it? Right? Like, I can't control if Joe Schmo sends me a microaggression or doesn't like me, but I can't let it affect my performance, right? If I'm about to go present or I need to go do something. So that got me thinking, okay, well, how do we control this? So that led me to a set of studies by Dr. Matthew

• 34:44Speaker 01

  Lieberman at UCLA, who studied how we interpret emotional signals. And what he found in a very elegant experiment where he put people into an FMRI and he flashed them fear micro expression. Now, fear micro expressions, we widen our eyes so the whites of our, upper whites of our eyes show, our eyebrows go up, we, we should be like taking a deep breath. That is a universal sign of fear. If you see someone on the subway make that face, you get nervous, right? You're like, what's going on? What's happening? So he flashed this fear expression in people and he saw they caught the fear. Their amygdala lit up with fear, even when he did it with under a second. So an extremely quick flash, the brain caught the fear. Then he taught them what the fear expression looked like and

• 35:29Speaker 01

  said to say out loud, fear, to label the emotion very clearly. When they labeled it, the activation stopped. So the act of labeling cues of, of saying, I see that, I see the fear, I see the social rejection, that is very empowering for the brain. It almost takes back that physiological response, like it deactivated the amygdala. And then I think it gives you choice. So I think a lot of my work is giving people the tools to label clearly, right? You cannot control the cues that are being sent to you, but you can hear a narrative hint and be like, ah, contamination narrative, right? I don't want that to affect me, but I can help them try to self-author it. Or hmm, that was a fear micro expression,

• 36:13Speaker 01

  or a scorn micro expression, or a lower lid flex. And then saying, I know how I want to reply to that. So I think that it's so great that you're already thinking about how your reaction was. And I think that by labeling the different conversational cues or the blueprint, it helps put you back in that, in that self-authorship, right? Control. Like we're in control of our responses. Quami, do you?

• 36:37Speaker 00

  Brilliant.

• 36:38Speaker 01

  When you see like a negative cue, do you ignore it? Like, are you very good at ignoring it?

• 36:43Speaker 00

  No, I'm not good at ignoring it. I can't. I've trained myself to be very perceptive, but one thing I'm learning is the, we might have the ability to pick up on the cue, but we don't have the ability to mean, read minds and understand where the cue has come from. And so the, the thing that I'm telling myself all the time is that it is not about you. Quami, it's most likely not about you, right? Because we can understand the external manifestation of what is inside, but we don't know where it came from. They might've just remembered something bad. Think about, everybody has those social traumas where you remember something awkward you said like 12 years ago and you're like, maybe that's what it was. I don't know what it was. And so I'll pay attention to pattern. So, okay, I'm going to note that,

• 37:26Speaker 00

  but most likely it's not about me. Statistically speaking, it's not about me.

• 37:30Speaker 01

  That's a frame. Yes. You, you created a frame for yourself, which is it's not about me, right? It's not about me. That's a great growth mindset frame that is a rule for yourself to like, separate yourself from that thing. And, and by the way, it could be about anything. It could be about anything. For example, I was doing an interview with someone and they were making very odd, non-verbal, negative non-verbals. And I was like, her, her answers were so great. Her resume was so great. And I was like, what is going on here? And so I, I did a second interview because I was like, I, like, what was going on? And I said to her in the second interview, you know, this is so great. It was so great. The second interview was like, poof, like this is exactly who I thought I was getting with that, with

• 38:11Speaker 01

  the resume. I said, you know, were you really nervous for, for the first interview? Because I noticed, she knows my job, right? So I said, I noticed you were making all kinds of negative non-verbals. And she said, you know, I borrowed my roommate's heels. And I, and they hurt so bad. And there were blisters all over my feet. And I think that I was like uncomfortable, like physically uncomfortable. She's like, every time I moved my foot, I was like, ooh. I was like, this is it, right? Like, here I am thinking like, she doesn't like me, or is she lying? No, her heels just didn't fit. So I, I should, I think about that all the time. So I'm like, it could be the heels. You don't know. It could be the heels. You do, you do not know.

• 38:49Speaker 00

  This is so great. I think one of the, the hidden keys to charisma is comfort, of comfortability. Giving yourself permission to be as comfortable as you can in the location, while still being respectful to everybody else. You're not going to show up to a job interview like, hey, guys, what's up? You know, like, that's a little bit excessive. But being respectful to the environment, but also recognizing what makes your body feel comfortable, right? So for example, Vanessa, you saw me speak. And so I recognize when I speak, I like to always have a podium, not to stand behind it, but to lean on it. I'm really comfortable when I lean. And it also gives other people, the person listening, more permission to be comfortable too. He might be talking about a heavy topic, but

• 39:33Speaker 00

  he's comfortable, so I can be comfortable. And if you're physically uncomfortable, that's a distraction that takes away from your ability to be present with the other person.

• 39:42Speaker 01

  I noted that podium.

• 39:46Speaker 01

  At Global Leadership Summit, they ask you, what do you want on stage? And you could have literally anything you want on there. Like, I think that if I had said, I want a ball pit on stage, they probably would have gotten me a ball pit. Right? They are so kind. They would have gotten me whatever I want. And I was, so I had nothing on stage with me. I had like a little table with a gift on it because I was giving the audience a gift. But I was like, ah, like, that is a great use of a podium because I'm sure you know this. But so the comfort, like, your comfort absolutely added an element of ease. Right? You were, you were giving competent ease, which is like our favorite. We love someone who is so comfortable with their own knowledge that they can relax.

• 40:29Speaker 01

  This is like contagious. Because we're like, if you're comfortable up there telling me what you're really good at, then I can be, I can know that you're doing a really great job. You, you know your stuff. But the second thing it did is it put you into more winner body language. So when you're speaking or on stage, right? It's, I'm, I have what I would call like, uh, like the strike zone, right? Like, I have some space between my arms and my torso and my shoulders down and relaxed. But I couldn't really claim space like with my arms outspread, right? Like, that would be too much. But if I had a podium next to me and I could put my arm up like this and lean, all of a sudden, I am taking up way more physical space. I have way more exposure to my torso. I have way more exposure to my arms.

• 41:14Speaker 01

  That subconsciously is a signal of, I feel so confident. I feel pride. I don't feel worried for my physical safety that I can literally expose. I can like have more space. And so I thought to myself, when I saw you do it, I was like, oh, what an elegant way to look like a winner.

• 41:31Speaker 00

  Oh, thank you.

• 41:34Speaker 01

  I'm gonna steal it. I'm gonna steal it. I'm like, I'm gonna ask for a podium and then not use it. Like, I'm just gonna lean on it.

• 41:39Speaker 00

  That's it. Amazing, amazing. So thank you. This is something I will cherish forever. So thank you for that.

• 41:48Speaker 00

  Another thing, I want to ask you about level three, communication. Because I'm wondering the, I know you're a person with high degrees of intentionality. It was very interesting to me because there was, it was very skills heavy in the beginning and focused on the art of connection, the science and everything. And then, tell me if I'm wrong on this. It seemed like with level three, that's where you get into life-changing type of territory. Where you gave people the tools to, without being too invasive, give, help other people to have the gift of rewriting and renegotiating their own self-narrative. But also the tools to renegotiate their own self-narrative with kind metacognition.

• 42:31Speaker 00

  So was that something that, can you tell us about level three in general and the self-narrative part? Because I think that's really, really deep.

• 42:39Speaker 01

  Thank you. I, that was my goal with level three. But I was walking a fine line between interpersonal and intrapersonal. Right? When we talk about conversation, we think of it as an interpersonal skill, right? You can't have a conversation with yourself, not really. Yes, you can talk to yourself mentally, but really, conversation is an interpersonal skill. You need someone else to do it. And so it was very challenging because like, conversation comes in three levels. We have level one, which is about putting people at ease. Level two, which is about connecting deeply. Level three is about creating meaning. So here I am in level three, talking about creating ultimate meaning with others. But it's also a very personal journey, right? To be able to go deep with someone, you have to know yourself. So which comes first? Knowing yourself.

• 43:23Speaker 01

  But you cannot share who you truly are authentically. And you mentioned something earlier about code switching. You said, you know, if you don't know who you are, you know, you can't be authentic. And that's true. If you don't know yourself, how could you share it truthfully with someone else? So I had to dip into the intrapersonal bucket, which I also love. I don't talk about it a lot in my work, but I got to do it in level three. And I also thought to myself, if you've made it through 90 pages of my book, we're there.

• 43:53Speaker 01

  We're there. And so the question that I would start with, and maybe we could do this together, is beginning to identify who you are so you can share it. And one of my favorite questions is, if you had to name your memoir, what would you name your memoir right now? Now, I've asked this question, I'm gonna make you answer it, Kwame, so, so deep think about it. Now, I've asked this question to many people, and you cannot say, an answer that's not allowed is a work in progress.

• 44:28Speaker 01

  Or any version of that. That doesn't, that doesn't count. So I want you to just think for a second. What would you name your memoir? Another alternate for this that I do with younger folks is, because they don't have as much life, you know, in them, is what would be your life theme song right now? What song? So that's another way that we can look at this. And then, and I'm giving you some time to just think about it. And then, what we can do is, and if you're willing to take out a pen and paper and do this with me, write the name of your memoir at the top of your paper or your document. And then, if you had to outline your life in chapters, what would those chapters be?

• 45:13Speaker 01

  And I would challenge you to not just think about chronological chapters. Yes, we can do, you know, zero to five, the baby years, the teen years, the tween years, high school, college, law school. But actually, more learning chapters. Like, what did you learn as a tween? You know, what, what was your takeaway in law school or in law school? What are you learning in that chapter? And then, what were the pivotal chapter change moments? Yes, they can often be graduation or moving, but oftentimes, they're not. They're an aha moment, or meeting a mentor. Or I've had books, chapter change for me.

• 45:57Speaker 01

  I've had podcasts, chapter change for me. Like, I've literally listened to a podcast. I listened to one podcast about high conflict people. And all of a sudden, someone in my life made a lot of sense to me, and it was a chapter change. It was a full-on chapter change. Where I was like, oh my, oh my gosh. So was there like a podcast or a book or an aha moment? And just start to brainstorm, like, dreamstorm with me on that. That exercise is very intrapersonal, right? Like, and I, and I want to hear yours, Kwame, in a second. But if you know that, it informs your conversations in a beautiful way. Because then you know what chapter you're in. Maybe you've just had a major chapter change.

• 46:41Speaker 01

  So next time someone says to you, how are you really? How are you doing? Instead of saying, oh, good, busy, you know, love your three of law school, very fact? You can say, you know, it's been a crazy time. I just had a major pivotal moment for myself last week. And, and then you're beginning to share a story, something that's way deeper than I'm in my third year of law school.

• 47:08Speaker 01

  So I think that this intrapersonal exercise, it changes your conversations. It like, it's like a portal, or like, it, it, it gets you ready for when you're with someone who feels safe. And you would not do that with level one people, right? If like, a student you barely know walks up and they're like, how are you? And you're like, well, let me just tell you about my pivotal life moment that I just had.

• 47:30Speaker 01

  No, it's too much, right? But if a level three person asks you deeply and you have the time and the space and you're there with them, you have an opportunity that you wouldn't have had if you hadn't done the interpersonal work. So with that, I ask you, Kwame, what would the name of your memoir be?

• 47:46Speaker 00

  Oh, this is so good. Just, students, I hope you paid attention. She is a master at her craft. You notice how she didn't just drop the bomb and then peace out and let me sit there awkwardly? She gave me a little bit of runtime to think. That was very generous. So thank you. So take note of that. So I, I think the, the title I came up with is The Humble Winner. And so here's why. I think it's, it could be pretty narcissistic to call yourself humble. But so I need to clarify what I mean when I say humble.

• 48:16Speaker 01

  You work on that.

• 48:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's a skill. Humility to me is a skill. I don't think about humility as a virtue. So the way that I define humility, it's through self-awareness and accuracy. What is accurate? What is inaccurate? So it allows me to say, oh, I'm, I'm good at public speaking. I can, I can say that. I can, I know a lot about negotiation. I can say that. And I can say that with humility by, because I know I've put in the work to earn that title. Now saying, I am the best in the world. Now that, now that's arrogance. Now that is inaccurate because there's no way to substantiate that, right? So humility to me is the, the self-awareness to recognize what is and isn't with accuracy. So.

• 49:01Speaker 00

  If you are really good at something and then you say you're not, that's not humility. That's just a lie. That's inaccurate. And then for me, winner, um, notice I didn't say champion because champion is a moniker given to somebody externally from something else. Um, for me, winner is an identity, winning on my terms, though, things that are completely controlled by me. So it's more of a stoic perspective on winning. So I say, winning isn't something that I do, a winner is what I am. So what does a winner do in this situation, in these circumstances? So for me, blending those two things together, I could say, okay, speaking with accuracy, this is a skill that I have simply not developed. I performed poorly at whatever this thing is, but I am a winner.

• 49:45Speaker 00

  And what would a winner do with that information? A winner would then go into the cave, dedicate a lot of time to get to a high degree of proficiency on, on that thing. That's what a winner does. Now, when I exit the cave and I perform, I might not win externally, but I can win internally because I knew that I performed the best that I could with the skills that I had. Take that information, filter it through the humble accuracy and figure out what I need to do to continue to win on my terms. So that would be the, the, the, my life memoir.

• 50:15Speaker 01

  And what chapter are you in now? Do you, I didn't give you much time for the exercise. Do you have an inkling like, like was Global Leadership Summit a chapter change for you?

• 50:23Speaker 00

  Yes, it was a, it was a coming out party. Uh, that was, that was my biggest, my biggest event. And it was-

• 50:30Speaker 01

  I felt that for you, by the way.

• 50:31Speaker 00

  You did?

• 50:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did. I felt that for you. Like, it was like a real, like, celebration, like you on stage, I just felt like, so I, I was wondering, I was like, oh, I wonder if this is a chapter change for him. So kind of, it was a little bit?

• 50:44Speaker 00

  Oh, for sure, for sure. Because again, seven thousand in person, up to four hundred thousand online. I mean, that was, that was massive. And it was the first time ever speaking, ever. Cause I, again, I'm, I'm a recovering people pleaser. That's what got me into this. But then I also had just horrendous stage fright. So students, when I was in law school, I was afraid to get cold called. I was afraid to answer questions. And then I, I again, changed the narrative. I said, okay, the way that I, I look at fear is that I don't run from fear. I don't fight fear, I hunt fear. So when there is a feeling of fear, when I feel the, the cortisol rise, when I feel the, the limbic system start to flare, I say, okay, cool, that's fear, gotta attack it. The very thing that was afraid, that I was afraid of, I've got to do it.

• 51:29Speaker 00

  So in law school, whenever I felt nervous, that's when I answered questions. Hey, anybody want to speak? I feel that nerve, okay, boom, gotta do it. And so for me, when I was on stage at GLS, it was the first time in my life I felt no fear, no nerves. I just said, I have a gift. I am excited to share it. There's so many people here, I get to share it with everybody. This is exciting. You, you all should be excited too. I cannot wait to share this with you.

• 51:55Speaker 01

  New era then. You were in like a part change. I mean, to go from, I'm nervous speaking, I don't know if I can do that on stage to, I got this, I love being on stage, I, I can own my material and deliver it. That's a, that's a part change. Like, that's like a speaking era, right? Like, that, that means you're going into a speaking era because you've unlocked it. And I, I, that's really important, right? Like, that you have unlocked this new superpower that is now no longer holding you back. And now it's just like, get me on stage.

• 52:29Speaker 00

  That's it.

• 52:29Speaker 01

  You know, I mean, that's how I feel. I'm like, get you on, get you on more stages.

• 52:34Speaker 01

  I mean, like, it, is that the goal for this part? Like, can we get you on more stages? Because if you have all that unlocked, you should be on more stages.

• 52:41Speaker 00

  Thank you. Yes, that is the goal. And, and I told my team, I said, hey, this is going to be a busy season and it's going to be uncomfortable managing all of this, just temporally. Like, there's a lot to do in a short period of time. But I said, the momentum doesn't stay with you forever. So I want to make sure that while I've got it, let's, let's go, let's go, let's go. So yeah, you're, you're reading it 100% right.

• 53:04Speaker 01

  Oh my gosh, well, let me know how I can help with that.

• 53:07Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 53:09Speaker 01

  Corporate speaking is its own world. Now, it's interesting because we're not in a real conversation, right? I'm in an interview. So I would, if I were in a normal conversation with you, just to like meta, take a step back, I would, I would be, I'm a, I'm, I'm an aggressive dream hunter. So like, I would be like, let's break a speaking business plan for you.

• 53:30Speaker 01

  I would be like, let's go. Like, what's your real, like, you gotta have testimonials, here's how we leverage GLS. Like, that's what I would do if I were in real conversation with you. But awkwardly, we're not in real conversation. Interviews are actually very unnatural, I think. They're not my favorite because I would, I just want to talk to you about that, right? So now I have to be weird. One, I, one, I can't like go down that path with you and like dreamstorm and like help you talk about your speaking career. Second is, it's like weird for me to be like, well, here's my answer, right? Like, I wouldn't do that. So instead I wait for like the next question. So it's just, I just am meta calling out that, um, there are these hidden rules that happen in conversation and actually interviews are not, are not one of them. So there's two things that are happening right now, just trends wise, I've noticed.

• 54:15Speaker 01

  One is that we are talking more than ever to AI. So conversations used to be either usually in person, right, for a long time, then okay, video, and that was close to reality, but not quite. Cause like, I have people on the call right now who are on mute. This is not very natural, right? Like, I can see your lovely faces and I cannot talk to you. That is very non-natural. That is very weird. Like, I can see, right? Like, if you're laughing, I can't laugh with you. I can't hear it, right? So, um, that is, that is one weird thing. Then we now are doing a lot of conversations by a voice note. That's weird.

• 54:58Speaker 01

  You know, I'm, I'm talking to my best friends all the time over voice note. That is wonderful because they live across the country, but also very odd because I will take a nine-minute speaking turn, right? Like, I'll record my poor friend nine-minute voice note. And then she records me a nine-minute voice note and I can't reply to every little piece, right? So that's changing our muscle in our brain of how we speak and how we share. And then lastly, we're talking to AI, a lot, not everyone. But when I was sitting next to my husband while he was talking to his AI, he's a programmer, so he was developing, and he was like, do it better. No, that's wrong, do it better.

• 55:43Speaker 01

  And, and, and then, you know, I, I asked him a question and he turns to me and I'm like, don't tell me to do it better.

• 55:52Speaker 01

  You know? Because he had been talking for 20 minutes to his AI thing, I was gonna say person, his AI thing, in a very like not warm, not congenial, no good tone way. And then he has to turn and talk to me and code switch, kinda.

• 56:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:12Speaker 01

  And so I think it's training these muscles. And the same is, the last piece of it is, we're also listening to a lot of conversation. We're listening more than ever to podcasts, like podcasts are, most of us are listening while we walk, while we wash dishes, while I cook, like, I'm listening to them. But actually, an interview is not a conversation. It's not really, right? Like, even the most conversational podcasts are not real conversations, they are interviews. And so it also is like, we're listening to something that is not a real, true, connective back and forth. It's public, right? Like, you know someone's on, they are performing, right? They are performing, whether or not they would admit it or not. And they're taking turns in a very different way and they're not going as deep.

• 56:56Speaker 01

  So I think all of this has atrophied our conversational muscles. It's one of the reasons I rushed to get this book out. When the research was ready, I asked my publisher to move it up.

• 57:05Speaker 00

  Yep. I was wondering about the timeline of it too, because it seems like we are rushing to a crisis of communication and there is not enough moving in the opposite direction to recalibrate. And for me, again, this is the, the most important book at the most important time because we have to address this with urgency. When you think about it, with the plastic nature of the brain, the more often we see these reps of, of, okay, I'm gonna have these long monologues on voice notes, which I do too. I do it for Vanessa, as you know, I'm a note taker, I'm a note taker. So I do a lot of metacognitive journaling. So my journal is just dictation. So when I, when you send, see my notes, I guarantee you, there will be some odd typos,

• 57:49Speaker 00

  I apologize in advance. And so sometimes when I am in that flow state after like a, a really significant event like GLS, I'll just go for a walk and just talk out my thoughts for 40 minutes straight. And I've recognized, and I remember it, it really hit me in your, in, when you shared the research about turn-taking in conversations, anything more than 40 seconds in a real conversation feels like a monologue. And I was like, oh my gosh, I've been torturing my wife. Um, Whitney has been calling that out for a long time. And I said, you don't, it's funny because I said, you never used to say that before? Yeah, cause your brain shifted. Your, the neuroplasticity has created this new groove where now I'm used to speaking

• 58:33Speaker 00

  like this, even when I'm on interviews, people want me to talk for longer. So we have to be able to be mindful of code switching appropriately based on the context, but also just constantly remembering what it takes to truly connect. Because, you know, the science of people says, there is part art, part, part science here. And once you understand that, you can affect your, your conversations much better.

• 58:57Speaker 01

  And also setting up purposeful conversations for this. You know, I, I end the book with a challenge to do a cornerstone conversation, which are these foundational conversations to have with the important people in your life. That could be work people, that could be personal, that could be romantic, your partner, that if we craft time, we're like, okay, we're gonna go on, you know, three dates and we're gonna do three of the power questions for each date, or we're gonna do one level for each date. Or, you know, you, you, you open your work, your work bestie Slack channel and you're like, hey, I, I just heard this podcast, or I just read this book, um, can I do an icebreaker every Monday? Would everyone be open to it for a couple of weeks? Or like, you're gonna open up your group text to your friends and say, hey, can we send some voice notes back on these questions that I heard? If we're purposeful with it, it actually like, it's like going to the gym.

• 59:43Speaker 01

  I think we, we think about doing, um, body maintenance, you know? We go, we like lift, we do our biceps, we do our back, we do our legs. I think we need to start thinking about social reps, like social fitness, that we need to actually purposely think about, wow, like- I gotta flex some of these muscles. Like, I haven't had a deep conversation like this happens a lot. You know, I've been married for, for almost twenty years, married for twelve, together with my husband for twenty years. You know, you get into logistics, like you're, all you're talking about is the kids, you know? And so like, we have to be like, wow, I'm gonna be intentional about this conversation. So a, a challenge I would give is do the, the memoir exercise, the title of your memoir and your chapters with one person in your life who matters to you, a best friend, a

• 1:00:27Speaker 01

  parent, you know, how interesting would this be to talk to your parent about this? You know, and, and, and give them the space. We never do that with our parents, right? Now, especially like with my parents, it's like a quick check-in, you know, how's your back? You know? And so I would just encourage you to do a purposeful conversation or conversational conversation with one important person in your life.

• 1:00:50Speaker 00

  Perfect. Ooh, we have another question. Let's go ahead, get the student in.

• 1:00:56Speaker 03

  Awesome. Um, I, I think the topic of conversation is really cool. So actually before law school, I used to be, I used to work for a nonprofit called Living Room Conversations. And the whole, um, the whole purpose was that we would host conversations with people from across the nation on social topics. So I, it was so fascinating to hear people talk about, uh, their views. But I did have a question. So whenever we were talking, um, it would often get uncomfortable because we were talking about very serious social topics. So how do you, how do you balance giving, like having a respectful space and letting people talk, but also staying true to yourself and not backing away from your own, um, perspectives? But again, also not letting it turn hostile very fast? Cause I think it's a very tricky balance, but how do you maintain that?

• 1:01:41Speaker 01

  Okay. So Kwame, I would love your opinion on this because you're in different kinds of tense conversations that I'm in. So I think that there are two approaches, and this is really important because what can happen in a high stakes conversation is you give yourself, right? Like, that's exactly what can happen is like, you, you, you hide who you are, or you're afraid to say who you are. Um, and that is the worst thing that we can do because you end up leaving feeling inauthentic and you actually didn't get anywhere in the conversation. So preparing for these is actually a very good mental exercise so that you don't accidentally do that in the room, especially for my people pleasers. That is typically the first thing that goes. So, um, the first tactic I would give, and this is not based on research, it's just anecdote, um, is, um, humor can lighten the mood even in the most tense conversations, and it can

• 1:02:26Speaker 01

  remind everyone that they are human. So saying, ooh, this is uncomfortable, right? Okay, we're getting to it. We are getting to the issues, right? Like calling out the discomfort and naming it and just, okay, everyone, take a deep breath. We're about to disagree. We are about to disagree. It's not gonna feel good, but it's gonna be good for us. It's, it's like a vitamin, right? Like, I think that we can gently and, and humorously call it out to just like remind everyone to take a deep breath and that like, we can disagree and still be ourselves. So I think humor is one, doesn't always work, but I think that humor, it is one way to do it. The second is, um, respectfully using language that allows them to have their perspective

• 1:03:11Speaker 01

  and your perspective like this. You know what? I think two things can be true, or I love that for you. Oh, you know what? Thank you so much for sharing that perspective. Or as Kwame said, professors say, you know, that's interesting, or you know, that's, I, I think about it a little bit differently. There are phrases that we can use that are quite like, this is different, or I love that for you, or adding, keeping those in your back pocket can help you transition into whatever your opinion is, right? They're, they're, they are hopefully making it so that you don't say sorry, or apologize, or qualify. They're still very clear, but they're very gentle. They're still, um, soft. So I have a lot of those phrases that I will use to transition to whatever my opinion is, or maybe I don't even share an opinion.

• 1:03:55Speaker 01

  I just say, you know, I think about it differently, but thank you for sharing, right? So I think have, like, I think it's okay to memorize those kinds of phrases because they, they serve as tools when your body is like.

• 1:04:06Speaker 00

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• 1:04:46Speaker 00

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• 1:05:58Speaker 01

  You know, um, they're kind of like, they help you lean on it. Kwame, what's your opinion? I'm so curious.

• 1:06:06Speaker 00

  I've got thoughts. Um, so, so this is, I, I, I shout out the, the second book that I wrote, How to Have Difficult Conversations About Race, because that, this is something that we, we touched on a lot. So the first thing is, a lot of times with these conversations about sensitive issues, we jump in at the key point of, of contention. It's like, hey, let me tell you why you're wrong. Um, you're not gonna get anywhere with, with that. You put them in a defensive position. Studies have demonstrated that a fact that disagrees with somebody's worldview is processed in the brain as a threat. It triggers the, the fear mechanisms. So that you, the part of the brain that is, is even used in deep thought is not activated.

• 1:06:51Speaker 00

  So that's why persuading with logic and facts alone, it, it's doomed. So if you see those debates online, nobody's changing their minds. We just wanna see people dunk on each other. Now, the problem is, when you think about social media, the, we're seeing, we're consuming much, so much content. When was the last time you saw a respectful conversation go viral? It just, it doesn't happen. And so whenever we're talking about certain issues, we've been modeled a specific way of debating at this, this content, and then we model that debate style in a way that's destructive versus constructive. So what I would suggest is renegotiating the rules of engagement before you even begin the engagement. What are we here to even do? What's the goal? Am I trying to persuade you? Are you trying to persuade me? Are we just trying to share our thoughts? Are we just trying to vent?

• 1:07:35Speaker 00

  And have that conversation with yourself before you have the conversation with them? Because if you need to vent, maybe you need to journal instead. Maybe you need to call a friend who agrees with you and get it out that way, because the way that you're trying to process this is incorrect in terms of who you're trying to process with. So we can think about it, bringing, bringing some, um, elements of couples therapy into this. We can call it the fair fight rules. So if we're gonna actually have this conversation, let's negotiate the terms of engagement. So if somebody, for example, if somebody makes a point before the other person can give their rebuttal, they first have to demonstrate their understanding of the point. So what I heard you say was this. So, because a lot of times you make your point and the person just contends it without

• 1:08:20Speaker 00

  even fully understanding it. And if they didn't get that right, they say, okay, let me try to explain it again. And so the goal first level is just mutual understanding. And then talk about the points that you agree, because it's very unlikely that you disagree on literally everything, but we only talk about the things that we disagree with, which makes the conversation more destructive than it needs to be. So first, okay, I say my piece, you respond by demonstrating your understanding. Did I get that right? Okay, good. Now that I've demonstrated my understanding, I'm gonna talk about the parts that you mentioned that I actually agree with. I can agree with theoretically those elements. And now here are the parts where we disagree with. Boom. And now you can see how we have really shifted the way the conversation goes, where we are

• 1:09:05Speaker 00

  building upon each other, um, more so than tearing each other down. I created this, this thing called the, uh, constructive conversation blueprint. What did I do with it? Nothing. I've like, my notes are just a bunch of relics.

• 1:09:19Speaker 01

  Oh, it's not published?

• 1:09:20Speaker 00

  No, I don't.

• 1:09:20Speaker 01

  You never shared it?

• 1:09:21Speaker 00

  I'll, I'll post it, somebody steal it and do something with it.

• 1:09:25Speaker 01

  No, no. Kwame, you should, we, we should talk about it on my channel together.

• 1:09:29Speaker 00

  Okay, we can do that. Yeah, that'd be great.

• 1:09:31Speaker 01

  Let's do that, because then, then we can share it together and you can walk me through it. So don't post it yet.

• 1:09:37Speaker 00

  Great.

• 1:09:37Speaker 01

  Let's do it together.

• 1:09:38Speaker 00

  Okay, there we go. That's great. That'll be fun. But yeah, I think a lot of times these conversations are doomed from the start, just because they're not structured the right way. And so if we can just take the time to align on the process of communicating with each other, that would make the conversation flow so much better. Yeah. What, what, what do you think? Go, you can go ahead and keep, keep going. You can unmute again.

• 1:10:02Speaker 03

  Yeah. No, that's, that's, I fully agree with that. Um, we also, when we were doing this at, at work, we would talk about listening to understand and not listening to know, and, and it goes back to what you were saying, that knowing is very static, and it's just like, yes, I know, and then you stop. But understanding is an active process and you continue that. So I think, like, just having that mindset, but I was just thinking, like, it's easier, I think, with like friends, but with family, it gets so heated, so trying to have those parameter, like with my brother, we argue constantly. So it's like, how do we try to do that? But then, I don't know, there's no like formal structure when you're talking with your family as well, so that.

• 1:10:38Speaker 01

  I, I am so, like, the fact that we are all here and, and people are listening, like, this is how we have better conversations, like this is how we prevent it. Like, if you can send it to your brother, you know, hi, we're so happy to meet you, you got sent this podcast, you know, so that someone could have a better conversation with you, we're happy to meet you, right? Like, I think, I'm so, I was so grateful that Kwame wanted me on because we're actually getting to talk about the process of how to do this right, and that already is like leaps and bounds ahead. So the fact that we're all here, we're listening, and we can share with others is like, that's gonna already get us ahead. So send in this, this episode and be like, hey, I, I really wanna do this better with you. Here's what they said, could we try? Could we try? Yeah.

• 1:11:22Speaker 00

  I love it. That's so good. And a quick thing, because especially if it's your brother, one thing to do is reaffirm the foundation of the relationship. No matter what you believe, no matter what you say, we are always going to be siblings and I always love you and care about you deeply. And the reason why I have this conversation with you is because I care. And just stipulate to that, to that at the beginning. And then when things start to get heated, just circle back. Because that's the shift of the frame, which is, I think about it as the storyline we have over the conversation. So coming into this, I'm going to set the frame. I am very aggressive when it comes to setting the frame. My goal in every conversation is to set the frame so positively and collaboratively

• 1:12:04Speaker 00

  that you would actually look ridiculous rejecting that, you know? So that's the thing. And so I set that frame. And then when things start to veer off track, I don't even respond to what was said. I just say, hey, listen, before I respond, I want to say, like I said at the beginning, my goal here is blah, blah, blah. And so that alone will help to lower the volume of the relation of the.

• 1:12:24Speaker 01

  Another way you can do that, another way you can do that is, let's pause. Isn't it crazy that we grew up in the same house with the same parents? And we have such different perspective? Like, when, when, when do you think that happened? Right? Like, like, let's just go back in time. I'm just curious, like, you know, we have the same parents, same house. But we just feel so differently. Like, I think I started this in sixth grade. You know, I think when I took that civics class or whatever, when, when did you start to feel this way? Like, go back, like, literally go back and like, talk about the process. Sometimes even just like stepping back and talking about the process of the relationship, the process of the conversation.

• 1:13:05Speaker 01

  It's like, it allows you to diagnose like some of the, the why, like the narrative that's there. And you'll have a much more productive conversation if you learn when your brother got that idea. Like, I don't even know what his idea is, right? But like, wouldn't it be interesting to know when you went, was it slow? Was it fast? Did he have a chapter change moment? Or he saw something or learned something, right? Like, it's, it's gonna make it such a more interesting conversation. And maybe, maybe you'll understand him better from that. Or he'll understand you better. If you're like, you know, I had a moment. My chapter four was when I was, and then you're having a totally different conversation and maybe a deeper understanding.

• 1:13:44Speaker 00

  Brilliant. Ooh, so good. And I've got great news. We've got questions coming through. This is great. So Simone, you're up and then we'll go to Charlie and Alia.

• 1:13:56Speaker 04

  Well, sometimes it's very difficult to know, at least for me, who I am. Uh, maybe you're noticed, but I am not native English speaker. I come from South America. I live in Canada.

• 1:14:08Speaker 01

  Which country?

• 1:14:09Speaker 04

  Uh, Venezuela.

• 1:14:11Speaker 01

  Love it. Yep.

• 1:14:12Speaker 04

  Yeah. So I live in Canada now. Uh, I made my first Canadian friend. We play soccer together. We spend some time, uh, uh, we spend so much time together. Then I invited him to a Latin party. We went together and he, he saw me talking to other people in Spanish. He told me, wow, I didn't know you were like that. And, and then I realized I didn't know it. I, I swear I didn't know it. Uh, but it, I, I was two different people. I am two different people. When I speak Spanish, I am like extroverted. When I speak English, I, I am afraid because I feel I am making a mistake in every word I say.

• 1:14:55Speaker 04

  And perhaps it's not gonna change in a long time. So I cannot wait to, to be a perfect English speaker, to, to, to be the same person. So I don't know who I am. Maybe I am both, or I am no one. I, I don't know. And my question for you is, how can I, uh, close the gap between these two Simons that I am facing now in this chapter of my life?

• 1:15:17Speaker 01

  Well, first of all, um, speaking a second language or a third language is one of the hardest charisma tests. It's like a charisma stress test every time you're speaking. Like, for example, I speak Spanish also, and I also feel very different when I speak Spanish. Like, you know, cuando yo hablo español, yo pienso que yo soy diferente, you know? And so I think like, I also have the same feeling. I'm thinking about my language. I'm thinking about, I'm not even thinking about my body language. Like, all of my cognitive load is going to my words. So this is what I want you to think about is one, first, understand that is right. You are in a stress test for charisma. So, um, have grace for yourself because it's very challenging.

• 1:16:00Speaker 01

  Second, what's happening is all of your cognitive load is going to words. But we know that words are a very small part of our communication. We have multiple channels of communication. I narrow it down to four. Words, verbal, nonverbal, body language, vocal, how we say our words, volume, pace, cadence, and ornaments. What you're wearing, what's behind you, if you're carrying something, what you're holding your profile pictures. That's the smallest one. Like, hair, jewelry, clothes. When you're speaking a second language, it's all verbal. So what I would practice when you're speaking your native language is dialing your nonverbal and your vocal so it is muscle memory.

• 1:16:42Speaker 01

  So if you are super purposeful and practiced with your nonverbal presence, you know what kind of gestures you make, you know how you like to claim space and stand, you know how you like to have head movement, you're very, maybe you're very engaging, like you have a lot of head nods, maybe you head tilt. Great. That's all part of your charisma recipe, right? There are 97 cues to choose from. You've chosen your cues. Vocal power, you know where you speak, right? Like, I know, I'm in, I'm right now, I'm, I'm using my lowest maximum resonance point. So when I'm on podcasts, I typically speak at this pace. When I'm talking to my daughters, I often speak a little bit higher like this. Hey, girls, it's so good to see you. Now, if I were to do my podcast like this, it would drive you crazy, right? This is not how you want to hear me speak. So I, I, um, want you to practice in your native language,

• 1:17:27Speaker 01

  dialing in your nonverbals so it's muscle memory, you don't even think about it. And also knowing exactly where you deliver best. A lot of the times when we're speaking our second language, we go higher. It's like when I just spoke Spanish a minute ago, it sounded the same. Like, it was the same vocal tone as when I speak English. But I had to work at that. I had to make sure that was muscle memory. Same thing for you. So I want you to figure out where is your maximum resonance point in Spanish? Wherever that is natural to you. My preference, if, if I could give guidance, is the lower end of your natural range. That, that is where we showcase and demonstrate the most competence and confidence, confidence specifically. That way, when you switch into English or, you know, a third language, second language,

• 1:18:10Speaker 01

  um, your body and your voice are taken care of, right? Like, you know that you're delivering with those three channels and ornaments too, in your most charismatic professional way, so that you give yourself a little bit more leeway on, on the verbal. Um, that's gonna really help you feel like you're yourself, right? Like, you're still, you sound the same as you do in Spanish, like vocally, using the same kind of pace and cadence, and you look the same. That's gonna translate into the words as well.

• 1:18:39Speaker 04

  Wow. Thank you so much. I'm gonna start working on that today.

• 1:18:43Speaker 00

  That's so good. And quick note too, with Simone, it's one of the coolest parts about working with Simone for so many years is that we've been able to see his, his personality flourish just month by month. Um, it's so fascinating because we all knew Simone, but we started, we were able to know him more as he was able to express himself more. So for me, I can, I can speak Spanish, so I could, we could go and do a little bit of Spanglish. So, but for the rest of the team, they could, they could start to see how funny and charismatic and charming he is when he started to be able to express himself. And I remember I studied abroad in Ecuador and, um, we talk about the different versions of yourself

• 1:19:27Speaker 00

  when you're in, when you're speaking different languages. So cuando yo hablo español, yo siento muy tanto. Um, right? That's one of the things that I just wanted to say as I'm having the, stumbling through these conversations. I'm like, I, I promise you all, I'm smart. I promise you, I am smart. I just can't speak. And the, uh, it was the, the culmination for me, the big win at the end was I was able to tell a joke and people laughed. I was like, yes, I did it. I had a taxi ride for 20 minutes. Got it. Um, but it's just recognizing that you will be limited in your ability to express yourself when you're limited in your capacity to, to speak the language. And then when we parlay that to more of a societal thing,

• 1:20:11Speaker 00

  the, there are very disturbing statistics right now about literacy in America. Fifty-four percent of people can't.

• 1:20:17Speaker 01

  Don't get me started.

• 1:20:18Speaker 00

  Don't read above a sixth grade reading level. Fifty-four percent. And when you think about literacy, there was a part where I, I made this note as I was reading your book because you, literacy is not just your capacity to read words. It's about the word quantity that you have, but then also your capacity to understand context and subtext. So the literacy crisis extends far beyond the capacity to read because words are the tools that we use to be able to think. And so there are people who don't have the capacity to know themselves or know other people simply because of their inability to understand words. And one of the things that people say to me frequently is after I'm talking, when I'm talking to them

• 1:21:01Speaker 00

  and I'm, and I'm listening and reflecting back my understanding, since I've studied this and I have more words for emotions and feelings and perspectives, they say, after I talk to you, I have a better understanding of myself. And so when you understand the tools from your book and you can communicate at a deeper level, you're really giving people a gift of not just communicating and connecting with them on a deeper level, but helping them to understand themselves and see the world itself in a much deeper level too.

• 1:21:32Speaker 01

  Um, can we talk about literacy for a second?

• 1:21:35Speaker 00

  Please. Yes.

• 1:21:36Speaker 01

  Okay. So I'm gonna share a wish that I have. This is, uh, something that I've wanted for a long time. My end goal is to be able to make what I do a nonprofit and then actually be able to focus fully on literacy. Um, I just think it's like the mechanism that we have in, in so many areas. Um, that if we were able to get our literacy rate up, recidivism, um, homelessness, it would, it's just, it's a skill that we could give and then someone has forever. So the wish that I have is I need someone who's a linguistic expert to figure out what is the fastest way to teach someone to read. I actually don't think we figured that out yet. I thought, yeah, we just teach people how to read. And then my daughter turned five and I tried.

• 1:22:19Speaker 00

  Oh, my gosh.

• 1:22:20Speaker 01

  And I was like, this is so hard. It is so hard to teach someone how to read. And so I need a linguist and like, I hope to have enough money one day to hire a researcher. If there's anyone out there who's willing to do this, you have a lot of really smart people. What is the mechanism? Is it via a software? Is it, could we do it over the radio? Could I buy a radio station and, and send people workbooks and, and broadcast it for free? Is, is it have to be via computer? Could we put it in libraries, i- in all libraries? Is it a workbook? Like, what is the way? Both like mode wise, like what is the technology? Or is it old school workbooks? And then what is the way that we teach someone to read the fastest? Because it is quite difficult to teach someone to read. And I underestimated that.

• 1:23:05Speaker 01

  And then I was teaching my own daughters how to read and I was like, wow, this is really challenging.

• 1:23:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, it, it is humbling how difficult it is. Are you, do you, are you connected with Jim Quick?

• 1:23:15Speaker 01

  I know Jim, yes.

• 1:23:16Speaker 00

  You do? Okay, so this is, so he's, he's really focused on this. And yeah, yeah, this is a big side project for him too. So you all should chat about this, especially with his brain hacking. That would be interested and I'd be interested to see too, if there's any value in connecting with more counterintelligence folks to CIA FBI. Cause they, cause when you think about literacy as it connects to the ability to communicate effectively. Think about how they have to be dropped into different countries, speak with a native tongue and they have a process to do that. I wonder if there's a way of connecting the, the brain hacking with those counterintelligence methodologies.

• 1:23:51Speaker 01

  Right, like they figured out the way to do it the fastest. I think that that's actually the first hurdle in this journey is like some, just researching the fastest way to do it before we even figure out how to disseminate it is like, what is the fastest way? Because that's a huge difference. A workbook is very different than an iPad. The rollout on that is very, very different. And so I think, um, and, and can it be done asynchronously? Like, could it be done via app? I just like, I think we have to figure that out first before we even figure out how to roll it out. All over, you know, schools, prisons, libraries, right? Like, but we have to get it everywhere. The question is, well, what is the thing? So.

• 1:24:27Speaker 00

  Right, oh, so cool.

• 1:24:28Speaker 01

  Please, that's my wish.

• 1:24:29Speaker 00

  We'll brainstorm on this and listeners, reach out if you, if you have any leads. Great, awesome question, Simone.

• 1:24:36Speaker 00

  Who is next? Charlie, you're up.

• 1:24:37Speaker 05

  Okay, so I have a question for you, Kwame, and then also a question for you, Vanessa. So Kwame, earlier I, I really keyed in on when you were talking about fear and attacking fear. And I was trying to think of other perspectives or way it could apply besides just, you know, the, like you were talking about related law school trauma that we all go through. But I was curious how you apply it to negotiations. Cause I feel for me, from my experience, you know, whether that fear is, what kind of leverage does the other side potentially have over me? Maybe there's some sort of surprise they might throw during the negotiation that then throws off my whole strategy. Or maybe it's something as simple as, you know, I'm walking in against someone in negotiation. I immediately recognize they have all this vast experience over me. How do you sort of address attacking fear in the negotiation setting?

• 1:25:21Speaker 05

  Whether it is any of those examples I brought up or some other fears you've experienced in negotiating?

• 1:25:26Speaker 00

  This is so delicious. Okay, so my challenge will be to synthesize this in 90 seconds or less. So the first thing, this is the internal negotiation. So I have this process called focused catastrophizing. So when you're catastrophizing, you're focusing on all of the things that are scaring you. What you need to do is, is focus that process. So I say to myself, Kwame, if you want to freak out, freak out, but you got a shot clock, you got 10 minutes. So you write down everything that is scaring you about this situation. And what you'll find is that usually it's not a long list of things, but it's just remixes of various combinations of the things. And your task is to find a way to be okay in all of those scenarios. So confidence isn't always feeling amazing. It is just knowing that no matter what the outcome is, I will find a way to be okay.

• 1:26:09Speaker 00

  And I need to become very, very, very comfortable with the worst possible scenario that could possibly happen in this situation. And then I also freak, I, I changed my mindset about, I don't really care about the, the outcome of the negotiation. I, my mentality is I divorce myself from the outcome, marry myself to the process. My goal is to use every conversation as practice to get better at the next conversation. So I like the tough conversations where there's a power asymmetry, information asymmetry. Because I say, okay, negotiating from behind, this will be a heavy rep as I get my negotiation muscles stronger. So I embrace that difficulty. And then what's going to happen is when you think about the very simple definition of leverage as it relates to negotiation.

• 1:26:50Speaker 00

  There's a more textbook approach, but when you think about just old school negotiation parlance, the person who needs the deal most loses. And so for me, my goal is to emotionally detach myself from that need before I have that negotiation. And a lot of times in the negotiation, they will recognize that leverage point and they will lean on it and create this pressure point on you that will cause you to concede more than you need to. But when people have these negotiations with me and then they recognize that I am completely okay with whatever way this goes. It forces them to negotiate more in good faith because they can't leverage the emotionality that comes with need, the feelings of need against me in the negotiation. So when people threaten me, there is really no response because I've already been through it.

• 1:27:35Speaker 00

  Listen, I know you could do X, Y, Z and it'll have that outcome. I'm, I'm, I'm okay with that. So let's just have a conversation about the, what really matters. And if the person has more power, then I just use it, I use their ego against them. And I use the, the framework that I use is compassionate curiosity, but I, I angle it more towards advice. Hey, listen, I'm really excited to have this conversation with you. I know my client has certain needs and I know you've been practicing for a few, way longer than me. So I'm excited to not just converse with you, but also learn from you in this process. So out of curiosity, how are you seeing this? And so when you demonstrate that complete lack of fear and, uh, and detachment from the outcome, it makes it much more difficult for the person to use that against you in the negotiation.

• 1:28:19Speaker 00

  So I hope, I hope I was under 90 seconds. I was aiming for it. Vanessa, any other thoughts?

• 1:28:26Speaker 01

  I'm, I really like the idea of, um, like giving yourself a time clock for that nervousness. I also think like you can sometimes trick your body into feeling like a winner. And, you know, winning hormones really do help with the chemical of fear, like the chemical feelings of fear. Um, and remember that, um, when we're talking about fear, your body doesn't always know the, the difference. Like it doesn't know exactly what you're afraid of. And so I think like, um, laughing, laughing in the face of fear, like it, your body's like, oh, I guess we're okay. I guess we're okay. So, um, like I have playlists that I will use or like certain funny people that I will watch

• 1:29:09Speaker 01

  just to like get my brain into like that, that funny zone. Because if you're, ha, ha, ha, if you're doing that, your cortisol is lower, right? Your endorphins are starting to trigger, endorphins are so good. If we're about to go into a very tense negotiation. I know there's, you know, Tony Robbins jumps, right? Like, you know, there's ways you can get your body into it. I, I've seen people do pushups before, really high tense things. I, I watch a lot of speakers backstage, um, dealing with their fear, right? Like they're very afraid to go on stage. And so, um, I think that that all works, like getting your testosterone going for both men and women, getting your endorphins up, getting your dopamine up and having like a curated success routine. And remember, as Kwame said so beautifully, uh, fear is not the absence of confidence.

• 1:29:53Speaker 01

  Fear is not feeling confident in doing it anyway. Right, so, um, just doing the thing, even if you're not like ready or don't feel good about it. It tells your body like, I'm still brave enough to do this. So I think that, um, we have this mistaken belief that, that we have to feel no awkwardness and no fear. No, no, fear does good things for you, right? Like it's, it's sometimes giving you the adrenaline you need and that can be good. Like if I'm not nervous before speaking, I actually get nervous. Like I want the adrenaline on stage. Yeah, like I want that adrenaline because it like, that adrenaline is like, it makes you like perform really well. So the, the sweet spot is adrenaline plus, plus positive chemicals, endorphins and dopamine and testosterone. We don't want adrenaline plus cortisol.

• 1:30:35Speaker 01

  So if you can flip that high state, that high energy state into good nerves, it really helps you.

• 1:30:42Speaker 00

  Amazing, ooh, I love that. I love that. And, and Charlie, you said you had another question for Vanessa too.

• 1:30:47Speaker 05

  Yeah, and I was gonna say, I actually thought Vanessa made a really good point about trying to find different ways to sort of either combat that fear or nervous energy beforehand. Like I know for me, for example, if I ever knew I had a big presentation coming up, whether it was at an internship or in class, I would get funny looks, but I wouldn't care because it would just get me into that sort of like pregame mode where I would just put on different songs that would just have me in some sort of uplifting, good mood. That just had me relaxed and then you just have that relaxing feel good energy. And I just, at least for me, from experience, feel that that then exudes on the people that you're presenting in front of. Because then when I have, you know, other people around me that look all uptight and they're shuffling their notes and trying to make sure they memorized every point correct.

• 1:31:27Speaker 05

  I'm walking in, listening to my favorite song, smiling ear to ear, like looking like some crazy person that couldn't be happier when everybody else is trying to help. And I'm just going, I'm confident of it's just gonna happen how it is. I trust what I did. It just, I don't know, that energy, I feel like gets off to them and feels different.

• 1:31:43Speaker 01

  Love it, love it.

• 1:31:45Speaker 00

  So good.

• 1:31:46Speaker 05

  And then my question for you that I had is, so as someone who has limited, but still for a couple of years have been part of my own podcast. I thought you made a very interesting point when you were talking, Vanessa, about, you know, social media and technology and how it's taking over more and more of our conversations. And I feel like especially podcasting, which has really blown up over these past few years, has become a mainstream of communication. You also talked about like, for example, what we're having here, how it doesn't feel quite the same, no matter what you try to do as a natural conversation. Right, like you were saying, where we're all muted and waiting. And I mean, even I feel my co-hosts that I have all this chemistry with, we still have the points, right? Where we're guiding each other into a question where if this was in real life and we were sitting having our discussion, you wouldn't be

• 1:32:30Speaker 05

  waiting for your cue to share something, there wouldn't be these guiding points. So I'm curious what you think can be done in podcasting to sort of bridge that gap and try to get as close to, because I know it'll never quite be the same thing, but what kind of steps could be taken to make it feel more like that natural conversation?

• 1:32:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, um, I think, do you know the, the podcast Good Hang with Amy Poehler?

• 1:32:53Speaker 05

  I've heard.

• 1:32:54Speaker 01

  So, okay, so, um, it was interesting, I, you know, podcasts were, were, everyone was like, oh, it's too late to have a podcast, everyone has them. And then Amy Poehler came on the scene with her podcast, maybe like a year, year and a half ago. Um, and everyone was like, oh, another podcast. And it just, like, it just skyrocketed in popularity. It's always one of the top podcasts. And I think it's because she is trying to get as close to a real conversation as she can. Unlike, well, yes, it's her interviewing other person. She, it's called Good Hang, right? She's, it's not an interview show in this traditional sense of like, she just wants it to be a good hang. And she says in her very first episode, if you're gonna watch anything, go watch her very first episode. She says, you know, I'm not trying to make you better, not gonna try to change your life.

• 1:33:40Speaker 01

  I'm not gonna give you advice. We're just gonna have a good hang. I think that without realizing that we were so desperate for that kind of a show, that it, it, it's the most conversational I've heard of any podcast, maybe also world's first podcast, um, with Sarah and Aaron Foster. They are very, very conversational, even when they bring someone on. Like, if you listen to their episode, I was listening to their episode with Gwyneth Paltrow, it's like you're just listening in on their gab. And I think that those shows are just taking off, right? Like, those are the ones that people are like, yes, because our brain kind of knows that it feels more natural. Um, so I think one is, um, in person, if you can do it, right?

• 1:34:22Speaker 01

  Like, you don't have the muting issue. Um, two, making it feel like a real conversation as much as possible. So I actually like the conversations, like, um, Stephen Bartlett on D I R B C O. Uh, I went on that last year and the year before. It's actually like a real conversation over a table. It feels like a real coffee conversation. I like the setup because we're not in too, you know, a lot of the, the shows are set up like two chairs diagonal. I, I would never have a coffee with a friend that way. I just like, wouldn't do it. Um, whereas Stephen Bartlett has it set up where you're both facing each other over a table. That's very much like a boardroom table or a coffee table or a date. Right? So, like, the setup, being in person, and then really trying to have, um, depth with, with

• 1:35:06Speaker 01

  agenda, like, you, you could have a general idea, but not pre-scripted questions. Like, my favorite podcasts are like this one, where, yes, I know, we did our research, we have things we wanna share, I have my little bullet points, and Kwame has his, like, kind of questions, but we're also just sort of going where it takes us. I think the more that you can have, like, very unstructured agenda is, I think those are the podcasts that are gonna take off. I think, like, that's, those are the ones that are gonna really grow.

• 1:35:31Speaker 00

  Yeah. Oh, great question, Charlie. Hey, hold up, Charlie. And so, you need to shout out your podcast.

• 1:35:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:37Speaker 00

  Can't, you have to shout out the podcast.

• 1:35:40Speaker 05

  No, I mean, I would say it's definitely a little more, uh, unique than maybe what somebody would expect a podcast that'd be a part of is, given, you know, that this is law school and dispute resolution and communication related, but I'm part of the, uh, HHH racing podcast, and actually, it's more of a horse racing podcast, that I ended up being on completely, uh, by randomness and chance, uh, simply from a family friend, uh, coming to visit one time and seeing me have the horse racing program sitting on my desk, cause I was getting ready to leave to go to my home track. And I was in high school at the, or no, I was a freshman in college at the time, so it was a very young age to be into something like that. And he just pitched to me the idea, cause he already had the podcast going of one day coming on as like a guest episode to get younger people into the sport. And then that blossomed into actually becoming a full-time member and have been doing that for a

• 1:36:25Speaker 05

  couple of years now, or three years now.

• 1:36:27Speaker 01

  Wow. Learned a personal passion. Cool.

• 1:36:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's so cool. That is so cool. Okay, thank you, man. Thanks for sharing. Great. We have Alia and then Priya.

• 1:36:37Speaker 06

  Hi. I just wanna say I've really enjoyed listening in. I think all of this is really resonating with me. Um, I wanted to circle back towards the beginning when we were talking about the different frames that people have. So, I think I'm someone who has a redemption frame mindset, and I feel like sometimes when I'm interacting with people who have the contamination frame, we end up butting heads. So I was wondering if you have any suggestions for how I can share, like, my more growth-oriented perspective, and like, understand where the other person is coming from and not make them feel invalidated.

• 1:37:13Speaker 00

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  app for app-exclusive offers, or just go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Kwame with Big Swings only. That's the best way to support the show. If you were going to take a big swing this holiday season and start a business, what would you build? Maybe it's that one idea that you can't stop thinking about. I've built a business from the ground up, and I can tell you that the hard part isn't the idea, it's getting it live. That's where Shopify comes in. You can sell everywhere people shop, online, in person, across social media, even

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• 1:39:04Speaker 01

  Yes. Okay. Great question. So, redemption folks, growth mindset folks, have such good intention, right? Like, we wanna help, we wanna help you be a self-author, we wanna convince you that you are lucky, we wanna tell you that you can create your own luck, it's just your, just your mindset, like, we have such good intention to help. But what that can come across as is toxic positivity. Right? And so, redemptive folks can sometimes accidentally do the, oh, it'll all work out. If you look on the bright side, it'll be okay. You know, it's what you make it, it's what you make

• 1:39:43Speaker 01

  it, you know? Where's the silver lining here? Um, and that is really soul-crushing. Like, toxic positivity is, is a really challenging thing. I, I, so, one is, there is a very fine line between sharing optimism and hope and toxic positivity. And I think as redemptive people, we have to be very aware of that line. I think the difference is curiosity. So when someone says to me, like, I have a couple of people in my life who do this to me, and it drives me absolutely crazy. I actually have a redemption mindset, but sometimes things are hard, right? Whenever anything's hard, these people will say, like, oh, you always work it out, you always figure it out. And what I notice

• 1:40:25Speaker 01

  there is a lack of curiosity, right? They're giving me a prescription, they're telling me what they want the frame to be for me. That's not curious. Well, so what we need to do instead is offer curiosity. So, my gosh, like, how does that feel for you? You know, what do you think is gonna happen next? What caused it? Is it, are you having trouble sleeping because of it? Tell me about how it's affected your personal life, right? Like, the more questions we can ask, that A, give us understanding, but B, help them discover their own understanding, right? Like, help them, like, have a meta moment of like, gosh, you know, I, I didn't realize, I hadn't thought about it that way, or, I guess it did start last month. That, that's true. Or, or you could ask questions like,

• 1:41:09Speaker 01

  you know, do you think it will ever get better? Do you think it'll ever get better? Right? And they're like, well, you know, I, I, I guess someday. When? When do you think it will get better? Right? Like, you're guiding them to that idea that this is a temporary state, or this is a temporary thing. So I think curious questions, well-intentioned questions are much more important than toxic, toxic positivity. I think that, uh, curiosity is like that magical ingredient.

• 1:41:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, I agree. I, just, there's a folk tale that is coming to mind. It's the, uh, the blind man and the elephant. So imagine that there is a, a literal elephant in the room, and five blind men observing the elephant. So they said, okay, I want you to touch the elephant, tell me what an elephant is. So one person touched the elephant's ear and said, an elephant is like paper. Somebody touched the tail and said, elephant is like a rope. Somebody touched a tu, the tusk and said, an elephant is like a spear. And then the men started to argue. So who was right, who was wrong? They were all, all both right-ish and all both wrong-ish. And so, bringing it back to what you're talking about, I think about it in terms of not denying the part of the elephant that the person is seeing.

• 1:42:14Speaker 00

  So, tell me about what you're feeling. Okay, go deeper, go deeper and validate it, saying, yeah, you have every right to feel and think the way that you, you do. And just make sure that you're leading, like Vanessa said, with that curiosity, so you can get a full understanding of where they're coming from. And then all you, your goal is to just help them to see, perhaps there is more to this elephant than they've considered, right? You have every right to feel the way that you feel, considering everything that you, you have right now. And perhaps, there's another way that we could look at it, but it's completely up to you. And the thing is, a lot of times when we try to persuade, we use the most unpersuasive way of persuading, where it's like, the thing we push hardest toward

• 1:42:55Speaker 00

  is the thing they push most against. And so, you want to feed into that autonomy and say, you have every right to believe what you wanna believe, you have every right to, to see what part of the elephant that you wanna see. There might be something else. If you wanna talk about that, I'm here for it. Um, and if, but if you don't, that's cool too. It's, it's your life, your choice. And sometimes that approach opens them up a little bit more to it too.

• 1:43:15Speaker 01

  I love that elephant metaphor. I've never heard it before. It's so good. If only I had put it in my book. Oh, you should've told me about it. That's gonna be in your book. That's gonna be in your book.

• 1:43:26Speaker 00

  Thank you. That was great. Great question. Great question. And then, let's wrap with Priya.

• 1:43:33Speaker 07

  Thank you. Um, Vanessa, in your new book, I think you address, I haven't read it, but according to the, um, the bio or the description, you discuss how to be authentically assertive. Um, and I think that's such a difficult concept in it of itself, but especially balancing that with, um, things like being humble and whatnot, and especially for law students and people like Alia and I, who are gonna be new attorneys in the field, hopefully next year. How do you suggest that we enter new spaces as novices, or even as women sometimes, and feel comfortable enough to be authentically assertive?

• 1:44:10Speaker 01

  By the way, this is for everyone in every area of their career. This is a struggle for not just new folks in their career. This is for C-suite executives who hire me to help them with authentically assertive. So don't feel like you're behind. Actually, it's a very, very hard skill to learn for every area. And the answer is, and actually, this was my longest chapter in the book, and my editor made me keep cutting it down, cutting it down, cutting it down, to be like, really like synthesized. The answer is constructive language. So being authentically assertive is being masterfully in control of the words you use. This means there is deconstructive language and constructive language. Deconstructive language is hedging, it's apologizing, it's dismissing.

• 1:44:53Speaker 01

  But it also can be vague, generic, AI slop. There's a whole new category in that deconstructive language bucket of we're using AI to write our emails. We're using AI to clean up our memo or our cover sheet. And what AI does is it vagifies. I don't know if vagifies is a word, but that is what it does. It takes precision of language. It takes nuanced metaphor and it strips it. Like, that's what its job is. And so it's like this filter that we're using that's actually making us more deconstructive. So the most obvious ones are, you know, I don't know if this is like a good question or not,

• 1:45:38Speaker 01

  but that was deconstructive. Like, that is the opposite of authentically assertive. Or, hey, everyone, I'm happy to be here. So sorry I'm late. And can it, are my good, am I, can you see me? Right?

• 1:45:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:45:56Speaker 01

  Right? So those are all in the bucket of deconstructive language. Your first five words matter. So being very precise with your first five to 10 words. What are the first five words you say in an email? The first five words you say in a text? The first five words of your resume? The first five words in your LinkedIn profile? Your headline? The first five words in your opener? Those matter. Second is how you're sharing your opinion without qualifications or apology, but with the confidence that you feel. I encourage my students to say the words, "I'm confident that", not "I think", not "I'm pretty sure",

• 1:46:40Speaker 01

  not even "based on my research". I would rather you say "I'm confident that" or "I'm confident in". So adding in very precise constructive language in our first few words, but also right before we're about to share an important point, right before we're about to share our perspective, that is signals to the other person's brain that, wow, this person really knows their stuff and they're being careful with their words in the sense of I can trust their words. Like, they've thought this through. There's no throwaway language here. There's no language that's making it vague or hard for me to understand. And this, the final effect of this is it makes you easier to listen to. We really like people who use constructive language. We, I went back when I was writing Conversation

• 1:47:24Speaker 01

  to look at the most underlined passages in my first two books. So I went to the Kindle version of Captivate and Cues, and I was just curious what people had underlined. And it shocked me. They did not underline my most complicated, erudite sentences, the ones that I sleeved over. They underlined my shortest sentences. My shortest, most concise, most direct, helpful sentences. And that was really surprising to me because it meant that was constructive. So this constructive is not about big words. It's not about complex sentences. It's about being really easy to comprehend, really easy to listen to. So that is short, concise, specific ideas and sentences.

• 1:48:09Speaker 01

  So I think that is the way that we can speak in a way that makes us like a pleasure to communicate with.

• 1:48:14Speaker 00

  Hmm, such a great answer. And also, this description helps me to understand the way that you approached writing this book too, because it felt like a good hang with Vanessa Van Edwards. That's what it felt like as we were reading it, because you weren't trying to talk over us and demonstrate how incredibly intelligent you are with the big words, and you spoke directly to that in the book. But it sounded so real and authentic. And it's huge. And then, speaking to the assertiveness piece, one thing to consider too is recognizing, again, this is a challenge that everybody deals with to a certain extent. A lot of people deal with. So as you become more assertive, something to keep in mind as you become more of a compassionate, warm communicator is helping other people to be assertive with you.

• 1:48:59Speaker 00

  So the same things that you heard Vanessa say don't do, you will hear other people doing those things. And so what I've learned to do is just say, hey, listen, before I even respond, I want us to have a relationship where you feel comfortable telling me like it is. I don't need you to make me feel good. I need you to help me to get better and be right. I don't care about being right. I care about helping you, you helping me to get right. Right? So tell me like it is. It's not going to hurt my feelings. And so then, they can be a lot more direct. So as you think about how you can be more assertive with other people, also think about how you can help other people be more assertive with you. When you see these signals, give them permission to tell you like it is.

• 1:49:40Speaker 01

  Hmm, what a gift. What a gift that would be.

• 1:49:43Speaker 00

  Yes. Amazing. Well, this, this was so much fun. I had a blast. Vanessa, before you go, let us know again about the book, how we can learn more from you and how we can support you too.

• 1:49:58Speaker 01

  Yes. Oh, my goodness. You know, this book has been a labor of love. As I mentioned, my longest, most researched book, and I tried to write it as a conversation. Like, I really, I try to like write it as I'm speaking to you. I have nine power questions in the book, three for each level. My greatest, fondest wish is that you do those nine questions with your important people. If we could be asking these questions to the important people in our life, we would feel more connected, we would feel less alone, we would be having a more productive, connected world. So I read the audiobook. If you like my, if you like my voice, we also have it, of course, wherever books are sold. And please, please do the nine questions.

• 1:50:40Speaker 01

  I'm actually going to do a little, a little yap challenge for the, for the book launch. So if you're feeling real brave, you can also join me for that. And I'm just super, super grateful. Thank you so much for letting me share these ideas, for reading the book, and all of you who joined us. I'm sorry that you were on mute. I couldn't really get to know you as well as I would have liked. But thank you for giving your, your beautiful questions.

• 1:51:02Speaker 00

  Amazing. Vanessa, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.