Why High Achievers Never Feel Successful | Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby

Kwame Christian sits down with psychologist, marriage and family therapist, and founder of Growing Self Counseling & Coaching, Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby, and it quickly turns into two high achievers comparing notes on the hidden cost of always chasing the next win. Kwame opens up about skipping the celebration of his own graduations, walking away from a national competition award because it wasn't the championship, and turning his marriage into a competition his wife never signed up for. Dr. Lisa Marie explains the psychology behind it (the hedonic treadmill) and why stepping off it doesn't kill your drive. It might actually give you more of it. From there, they get into how social media algorithms are quietly "diagnosing" our partners, the frame game that lets Kwame win a negotiation before it starts, the networking event that sent him hiding in the bathroom five times, and how Dr. Lisa Marie turned the loss of her cousin on 9/11 into her life's work. CONNECT WITH DR. LISA MARIE BOBBY Love, Happiness & Success podcast Connect with Kwame: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Request A Customized Workshop For Your Company⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Follow Kwame Christian on LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠negotiateanything.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Click here to buy your copy of Finding Confidence in Conflict: How to Negotiate Anything and Live Your Best Life!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ @kwamenegotiates across all social platforms

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I've got a question for you. Do you want more love, happiness and success in your life? Well, good news. We had Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby on the podcast and that is the name of her podcast. And that's what this podcast turned into because we are really good friends and she asked me so many questions. So you're getting the best of her and the best of me. So why would you want to listen to this episode? Good question, listener. Here's why. Do you want to hear from somebody who is not just a therapist and clinician, but somebody who grew a small practice to a multi-office location where she serves clients in the US internationally? Yeah, she's an entrepreneur too. Oh, do you want to talk to somebody who knows how to not just help people get from their worst place

• 0:44Speaker 00

  to their best place, but also helps other therapists to become coaches so they can get people to take their big swings? Just like you're trying to do? Yeah, you probably want to hear from a person like that. Well, good news. You have her today in our longest episode ever because we were just vibing out. It was so good. So if you want to have more love, happiness and success as you are taking your big swings, listen to this episode. This is the story of Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby and welcome to Big Swings Only.

• 1:15Speaker 00

  Today's episode is brought to you by Shopify, Granola AI, Quince and the Anxious Achiever Podcast. Stay present in your meetings. Get three months of granola free at granola.ai/Quami. For your gift list, shopquince.com for free shipping and 365 day returns. And make sure to tell them that Quami with Big Swings Only sent you. Subscribe to the Anxious Achiever today on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Do you have an idea that you want live for the holidays? Launch before Black Friday at Shopify.com/Quami.

• 1:50Speaker 00

  If I were to bring the younger version to myself and have him inhabit my emotionality, I think he would be very disappointed because he would look at the outside and say that I have checked every single box that I wanted to check and I still wonder whether or not I've made it. I still wonder whether I'm not, I'm successful. I'm still waiting and pushing off happiness and peace to the, to the next horizon. He would be deeply disturbed that he still hasn't acquired what it is that he wanted yet, which is that feeling of being enough. And I said, oh, wow. So this is a me thing. I've got to figure this out. And so for the last year or so, that's been the, the process of journaling. And now it's just,

• 2:32Speaker 00

  it's just being cool with where I am and enjoying the moment too. It's, it's been a really beautiful transition.

• 2:39Speaker 01

  That is incredible. Thank you so much for sharing that with me. And that's what I think shocks so many people because the, we think that if I do the thing and I get the house and I have the whatever, then I will feel differently. And your 21 year old self would be like, why do I still feel the same? And that, you know, did you know that's actually a name for it?

• 3:00Speaker 00

  Tell me.

• 3:02Speaker 01

  There is. This is a principle of positive psychology. It's called the hedonic treadmill. That if I just climb the next mountain and it keeps people going and going. And it's so hard, I think, to recognize that, especially if, if it's okay to say for somebody with like an achievement orientation, like I think you probably do to recognize that, be like, okay, I'm going to get off this treadmill and just like be, be happy.

• 3:28Speaker 00

  Yes. Oh.

• 3:29Speaker 01

  That's incredible.

• 3:31Speaker 00

  So the, the timing of this is so funny. I just recorded a course with LinkedIn Learning. It's a remap of my course, leading and motivating different personalities and achievement motivation. The achievement orientation is one of the things that we talked about. And what people don't know is one of the things I mentioned in the first course, I said, I have this friend who says, success is like oxygen. You know, you just take a breath and it's great for now, but it's not as good as the next breath. You need one at the next win. But I was talking about myself.

• 4:04Speaker 00

  That's how I feel. And so to, to talk to somebody else who actually knows the psychology, you know, it's a blessing and a curse.

• 4:12Speaker 01

  It is. It feels like being chased by wolves. I mean, I've honestly had to do some personal work around this myself. And um, yeah, because it's never enough. I mean, it's just this insatiable, like what is the next thing? And even from the outside, when somebody be like, man, you're killing it. You're doing all this great stuff. It, it still feels like, well, not really. And it's hard to enjoy it. And what a shame. You know, especially for somebody who works so hard and has done so much like you.

• 4:40Speaker 00

  Exactly. Yeah. It's funny too, because it's for a lot of people that can be coded as humility, where the person's like, no, no, it's really not that. No, in their mind, they're struggling because they don't think it's enough.

• 4:53Speaker 01

  It's never an, okay. Well, now I'm, I'm struggling with myself right now. Do, do I go, um, do I go deep with you right now?

• 5:02Speaker 00

  Let's go deep.

• 5:03Speaker 01

  Shall we? Okay. I always like to ask permission.

• 5:06Speaker 00

  It's just for me. Nobody else is here.

• 5:09Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, maybe one or two friends, fans. Okay. Simone is here. Well, okay. And I, and I mean, I've done some work around this myself, but I'm curious. Why, why is that true for you? Would you say? Like, where does that come from inside of you? This like never enough?

• 5:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think it's um, well-meaning parenting. Because my parents both are high achievers. My dad's a surgeon. My mom has PhD in nutrition professor. And so they were always, and Caribbean immigrants too. And so the mentality was you always need to outperform and overperform everybody to get recognition. So essentially the mindset was, hey, whatever you achieve, people are going to see it as less. So you need to overachieve at all, all times at every level. And so for me, I knew that when I went through, it was hard for me to celebrate wins because I knew the job wasn't done. And I, that was the mentality that kept me going. And so it's like, okay, graduated from high school. Okay. Yes, I know I'm,

• 6:13Speaker 00

  that's, that's expected. And then, okay, graduated from college. Yes, I know that's expected. I didn't even really want to go to, this is, this is sick. But I didn't even want to go to the, the graduations because I'm like, I don't want to feel that satisfaction in order to think that I'm done yet. No, I've still got work to do.

• 6:33Speaker 01

  But no, like you were very aware of your own psychology. I was like, no, no, no. If I go to the graduation, then I'll feel like it's complete and it's not.

• 6:40Speaker 00

  Exactly. So same thing with the master. So I had the, the law degree and the master of public policy still finished in three years. And I was like, listen, these graduations are distractions. I still have to pass the bar. And it was always my family was like, what are you, what's wrong with you? You're going to this, this graduation. We're celebrating you regardless. And the thing was, I said, no, I don't want to ever feel satisfied because it's that hunger that drives me. But what's funny is that now that I'm more at peace, I realize I'm, I'm, not only have I not lost my drive, I feel like I have more energy to drive because I'm not wasting it on needless negativity and scarcity mindset.

• 7:19Speaker 01

  That's a good point that you feel like your capacity for doing more has increased because you're right. I mean, it's, it's energetically like depleting and draining to feel like it's never enough. And that there's a paradox there. Like you released some of that and now you're, you're like, there's more vitality.

• 7:36Speaker 00

  Exactly. Exactly. Cause there's a difference between like, it's, it's not mutually exclusive. You can still find contentment and without being content, like complacent.

• 7:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:47Speaker 00

  Right? Those, those two things you can, you can still drive and it's really interesting. But what's interesting too, is that I can drive and succeed and feel, oh, that's great. And drive and not get what I want and say, that's fine too. I'm good. And so it's, it's very insulating in a way that I didn't expect.

• 8:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:08Speaker 01

  Did, did you have a pivotal moment that were like, you had that recognition? You're like, oh, wait, I can't keep doing this. Or was it sort of like a, a slow boil that happened over time?

• 8:18Speaker 00

  I think it's more of a slow boil, slow boil, just kind of chipping away. Because I, I remember one time when I was, because a big part of my story is the negotiation competitions. So I did this negotiation competition in law school. We won that at Ohio State. And then that let us represent our, our law school at the American Bar Association in Ottawa, Ontario. And that negotiation competition, we won that too. Then we made it to the national competition in New Orleans and we made it to the semifinals where we lost. And um, you see, even that framing is pathological. We achieved a success in getting that far.

• 8:58Speaker 01

  I know, but I'm, I'm already sitting here thinking like, so how do you win a negotiation competition? And then what do you win? Do very good negotiators get better prizes? Because that's like part of what they negotiated for themselves. Like, anyway, I have many questions, Quami, but I, I don't want to derail the story.

• 9:14Speaker 00

  I'll go back to those. Um, but I remember, um, they, they had the, like the award for the folks who made it to the semis. They said, hey, everybody, your awards are, are on the table. And my partner took his award. And I was walking away and my coach said, hey, Quami, you forgot your award. I was like, I didn't forget the award. I didn't come here for that. I came here for the championship. Um, and he's like, Quami, first of all, take your award. Second of all, listen, I've lived my life with that type of pressure on me and I'm telling you, it is not a fun way to live. And I

• 9:49Speaker 00

  A lot, I logged it.

• 9:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're like, I hear what you're saying.

• 9:53Speaker 00

  Yes, and then, you know, reading, you know, studying psychology, that was my degree.

• 9:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:59Speaker 00

  Reading all these books. And so I understood it conceptually and theoretically.

• 10:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 10:03Speaker 00

  Recognizing the nexus between positive psychology and just ancient philosophy, Stoic wisdom. I'm like, okay, I'm seeing that. That's interesting. And then after eighteen hundred episodes of the podcast and hearing people say certain things, I'm like, you know what, I'm seeing this. And then it was all conceptual. And then I said, I said, you know, you, you do these things and you want podcast listeners to live better lives and be happy. And you're not doing the stuff. How about you do the thing, Kwame? Why don't you just try it? And so it wasn't until I gave myself permission to experiment. I was like, hey, listen, treat it like a test drive. Test drive it for a week, see what happens. And if, if, if your, your empire collapses, you could go back to, to being, you know, unhinged.

• 10:47Speaker 00

  And so I, I tried it out for a week. Everything was fine. Uh, two weeks, everything was better. And I guess I'm still running the trial and things haven't fallen apart.

• 10:59Speaker 01

  What, what are you actually doing differently internally?

• 11:02Speaker 00

  It is being more present.

• 11:05Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 11:05Speaker 00

  Being more present, enjoying the moment, not always, um, like time traveling, time traveling to the past.

• 11:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:13Speaker 00

  Like reliving those regrets. Um, and then fast forwarding to the future, what could I be doing? What should I be doing? What am I moving toward? But just understanding this present moment and appreciating it for what it is. And I developed this little mantra, the, the present is perfect. And so the mentality was in this very little moment, here in this moment, here with you, Simone, in this, in this podcast, this is delightful. Utterly delightful. And there are things in life that are beautiful all around you all the time. You just need to start training your mind to see it, but you will find whatever you're looking for. And if you're looking for problems, you're going to find it. And so here, here's an example, here's an example.

• 11:58Speaker 00

  So I remember with Whitney, we've been married for sixteen years now. We got married on graduation day from undergrads who've been married for like a long time, you know? And so I remember I would always ask her this question, what can I do to be a better father? What can I do to be a better husband? Take those notes, go back to the lab, work on it, come back, ask. And so I remember in about September of twenty twenty four, I asked her and she thought for a minute and she's like, nothing, actually. Oh, you're, this is great. I'm really happy right now. And it was the worst thing I could have heard because my mind's.

• 12:36Speaker 01

  So you're like, nothing? What do I work on? I need an assignment like that.

• 12:40Speaker 00

  What do I do? What, what does that mean? What's my purpose now? And so then I started to hyper optimize on things that she didn't ask for.

• 12:49Speaker 01

  Like what?

• 12:50Speaker 00

  It's like, okay, cool. Well, she's doing a lot of, she does clean, she would be cleaning. And I'm like, well, I work from home, I can out clean her. I'm going to do more, more of that housework so she doesn't.

• 13:00Speaker 01

  Cleaning competition.

• 13:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:02Speaker 01

  You're gonna win cleaning.

• 13:03Speaker 00

  Yeah. So I was like, yeah, exactly. So I said, okay, I'm going to think about the things that she would want to do, that she doesn't need, that she needs to do, but doesn't want to do. I'm going to jump ahead and do those things.

• 13:13Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 13:13Speaker 00

  Right? And but then what ended up happening is that it created a bit of resentment because I was saying, but she's not trying to like improve as, as a wife, even though I was perfectly happy because I'm setting these new standards that nobody asked for. And that's when I realized, you know, bro, you got some issues. You got some blimps to work through here.

• 13:35Speaker 01

  That's hilarious. I mean, but how much insight, though, that you're aware of it, but like you, you created an imaginary competition. And then when she wasn't playing the game with you, you were like, but what, and it made you feel bad.

• 13:48Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 13:49Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 13:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:50Speaker 01

  Although even though I have to say like that you would think to do that in the first place, you're kind of making other dudes look bad, Kwame. Like, seriously, what, what does she not like to do that I could maybe do? Do it really well. So I'm glad you stopped because that would like, yeah.

• 14:08Speaker 00

  She is.

• 14:08Speaker 01

  Create a lot of problems for many men.

• 14:12Speaker 00

  Thank you. Well, let's actually, let's talk about relationships, though, because I know you deal a lot with relationships. When you've written a lot on this, you have a lot of podcasts on it and everything. What have you noticed has changed over the course of your practice as it relates to the patterns you're seeing in relationships?

• 14:36Speaker 01

  What a good question. And let me think about this because are, are there really differences? Um, actually, I do think that there are some differences. So generally, and so I, I'm a marriage and family therapist, I'm a psychologist, a lot of what I do is relational work. And I think what has always been true, including when I went to marriage counseling myself back in the day, when people come into marriage counseling, there is this belief that the reason why things are feeling hard is because their partner is doing or not doing something. And that the reason why we're going to go to marriage counseling is so the marriage counselor can straighten them out and then it's going to be great.

• 15:19Speaker 01

  That is why people come. And, and so they, they, you know, come and sit on the couch very expectantly and like wait for me to be like, you're what? How could you do that to her? You should really stop that, you know, like whatever. And so that's always been true. So we always have to work with that a little bit, of course, bringing people into this new experience in a safe way where they can see that people are co-creating relationships all the time, relationships or systems. But what I do think is interesting and different, I think that our culture has changed enough where people are invested in working on themselves and they're listening to podcasts and reading books. And, and I think actively not just aware of more of their psychology, but have new names for it.

• 16:01Speaker 01

  And what happens many times, particularly in the context of distressed relationships, we have some awareness of our own stuff, but it becomes easier in some ways for us to see and then also label the things that we see other people doing. So what is different about now is that when somebody is coming in with relationship distress and there's a story around it being their partner's problem, they will often have a label to go along with that. I think he's on the autism spectrum. They might be a narcissist, like they're gaslighting me. Like, so there's these opinions that aren't just somebody's own experience, but have been formed by taking information from the culture about what it means and what the problem is.

• 16:47Speaker 01

  And that's, that's hard actually to work with as a therapist. I will tell you that.

• 16:51Speaker 00

  Yeah. Tell me, tell me what makes it so tough.

• 16:53Speaker 01

  Um, because there is so much cultural support for their narrative of their experience. So like, for example, in the past, um, somebody could, could come in and say,

• 17:10Speaker 01

  uh, my, my partner Kwame is such a nice man and is also uh, doing a lot of stuff that I'm not asking for. And then like what you were saying, it creates a dynamic where now he expects me to be doing, you know, operating at Kwame levels and I'm just, I'm like a different human. And so how do we just enjoy each other more? I'm just making stuff up right now, but that would be an example. Uh, versus somebody coming in now and saying, um, my, my husband has some kind of diagnosable mental health condition. I think they're hypomanic. I think that they are, um, over functioning because of blah, blah, blah. And, and if I were to say,

• 17:53Speaker 01

  well, you know what, this is a different situation because there isn't that sort of systemic distress. But if I were to say something like, um, so how, how do you meet him where he is? How do you guys talk about this? How do you reclaim the center and, and help each other both feel good and have open conversations about this? In some ways that feels harder because, um, a like, character assessment? Who this person is, how they are, it feels durable. It's hard to, to change that. Like if I've decided my husband has autism spectrum disorder. And the other piece, though, is that there are thousands and thousands and thousands of people

• 18:36Speaker 01

  telling me that I should be interpreting my experiences that way, depending on what algorithm has like caught on to you. And so then as a therapist to say, actually, maybe, maybe there are some other things you could talk about. Because it's so reinforced, it's harder to change the paradigm.

• 18:54Speaker 00

  Oh, oh, okay. So much here.

• 18:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:57Speaker 00

  Quick thing, Simone, I'm going to bring you in because I want you to tell your story about the algorithm shaping you and your decisions. And then also, listeners, if you want to see a role play of me and Lisa Marie, like, uh, as a, as a couple, having a couple squabble, check out the episode I did with her. So it's on her podcast. Um, we'll put a link in the description because that was.

• 19:20Speaker 01

  Fantastic. That was a really fun one. I was like, are we, are we doing this now? Okay, like.

• 19:26Speaker 00

  Let's do it. Okay, Subo, tell your story because it's, it perfectly aligns with the situation.

• 19:31Speaker 02

  Well, it was like one year ago, I was talking to Kwame about the algorithms. And I was telling him that I was living like a situation in a relationship. And the algorithm was telling me, hey, this is what you're feeling, this is what's going on. So the algorithm was trying to show me like what to analyze in the other person, you know? So I was like, like being led by the algorithm about what to do. So it was like prompting me to, to break my relationship, right?

• 20:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 20:03Speaker 02

  So I, I, I got convinced by the algorithm. And then after I broke up my relationship because I was convinced of what I saw, the algorithm suddenly changed and started telling me about reconciliation and how to build the relationships again. So it was like guiding my life without, I, I was not even noticing it, right? But it was telling me what to do and the algorithm knew what was going on exactly in my life and when I took that decision. And then what was my next step?

• 20:39Speaker 01

  Wow. The way that you, I mean, yes, we all know that's happening, but just to hear you describe that so explicitly, but also how it was influencing you in really powerful ways that, you know, changed the trajectory of a relationship. And then that it knew, okay, we need to start talking to Simone about reconciliation now. That is creepy. And I'm sorry that that happened to you, but you know, and listen, you're a grown man and could like detach a little bit. Think about a little 15 year old.

• 21:12Speaker 00

  Right.

• 21:12Speaker 01

  You know? I mean, people who don't have as well-developed of a self yet and the vulnerability, that's wild, though.

• 21:20Speaker 00

  Right?

• 21:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:21Speaker 00

  But for you as a clinician, how do you, how do you combat that? Because you can talk about, based on your years of practice and your certifications and your experience and education, hey, you're making this diagnosis probably not right because of these reasons. But then they go online and somebody who just got their heart broken is telling you, these are the classic signs of a narcissist. If they ever say this or do that, they are this. So you are one person having one conversation with a whole bunch of background and data. And they are thousands of people constantly with a barrage.

• 22:02Speaker 01

  Legion.

• 22:02Speaker 00

  Right?

• 22:03Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 22:04Speaker 00

  Handle that.

• 22:05Speaker 01

  Very charismatic, with great haircuts and strong opinions. It is hard. And now, we also have Claude and, you know, Grok and all these being like, hi, I'm your new best friend. And here's, thank you for telling me all this stuff and like uploading 275 pages of your diary. So now I know everything and, you know, and, and also very confidently dispensing advice. And so the answer to your question, though, I mean, first of all, it's not easy. We're sort of swimming against the tide. I do believe, though, that even education and helping people understand a couple of things first that it's happening, you know, that meta-awareness of like, oh, oh, wait, what am I doing right now? And you know what?

• 22:50Speaker 01

  I am having this experience. And just like being curious about, why do I believe this? Where's this coming from? And so like some of that reality testing almost and making people aware that that's a need. But the other thing I think is very important, education around the fact that getting information, being told what to do, is completely different from having an experience that helps you really like connect with your truth. And that is something that good therapists do and good coaches do. And that's what I'm hearing in your story, Kwame. I mean, nobody told you how to feel and what to believe.

• 23:31Speaker 00

  Right.

• 23:32Speaker 01

  That over time, you were self-aware enough, you were having these experiences doing your podcasts, that you're like, oh, wait, we're talking about me right now, aren't we? You know, like putting that together, but then linking it up with your internal experience. And it is experiential. It is not informational.

• 23:51Speaker 00

  Oh, oh.

• 23:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. So that's what people don't understand. So they're taking in information and confusing it for an experience that it's not.

• 24:03Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 24:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:05Speaker 00

  Time to get super meta, no pun intended, Instagram and Facebook. So when we, this is very interesting because it seems to be a merging between our digital identity and what we are and what we believe in reality. And it sounds like a big part of this psychological literacy slash digital literacy is recognizing that what you're seeing online doesn't directly apply to you, but knowing that consciously. Because I think if you ask somebody, hey, does this random video apply directly to your life? They'll say, of course not. But it's almost like brainwashing to a certain extent.

• 24:45Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 24:46Speaker 00

  Because it feels like it's for you.

• 24:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, it absolutely does. And also, the way that algorithms follow you, it makes it seem like everyone is having the same experience. But like, you know, if you, if you watch somebody else's YouTube channel, mine, it's going to be like all kinds of dumb, boring cooking videos, maybe some doom slime mixing going on, and it's going to say nothing about gaslighting because it's not an interest of mine. But when you're in that space, there's this like, everything you look at supports what you already believe and you don't even know that it's happening. So yes, it's very like cultish.

• 25:22Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 25:23Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 25:24Speaker 00

  Question, did you say doom slime?

• 25:27Speaker 01

  Doom slime. Oh, my God. I'm going to send you some videos.

• 25:31Speaker 00

  We got it, though.

• 25:32Speaker 01

  Okay. So, so what it is, is a video of somebody like with a bowl and like eight containers of slime and like some mixins and some glitter and some sparkles. And they, they put all the slime in a bowl and they just mix it up with their hands. Yeah, it's very relaxing.

• 25:49Speaker 00

  Is this like ASMR type stuff?

• 25:51Speaker 01

  Probably, yeah. Like little crispy noises.

• 25:54Speaker 00

  Yeah. So, okay, tell me.

• 25:56Speaker 01

  Playing with slime.

• 25:57Speaker 00

  Yeah. What's your experience with that? What, what draws you to it?

• 26:02Speaker 01

  Um, I mean, well, it's relaxing, it's colorful. And yeah, like, I mean, if you need to go to sleep, something like that is like boring enough that it's not particularly engaging, but enough to keep watching.

• 26:16Speaker 00

  Yeah. This is so cool. This is, I love learning new things about you. It's, it's funny, too, because as we shift from vilifying the algorithm, it can help you find some things that you're into.

• 26:28Speaker 01

  It absolutely can. Yeah. Yeah, for better or for worse.

• 26:32Speaker 00

  Right. Right.

• 26:35Speaker 00

  Right. Did you, did you know, okay, you know what? I'm a doom slime girl.

• 26:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I never would have gone looking for that, actually. Had the algorithm said, you know what you might be into. And I was like, no, no, oh, yeah, I am, I am, actually.

• 26:52Speaker 00

  Simone, do you have any examples of weird, you know, let's keep it PG, of course, like, anything that you were surprised you liked online? Because I know for me, the thing that surprised me, because YouTube had a wrapped, like just spot, right?

• 27:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:06Speaker 00

  One of my favorite things to watch last year was short videos, like YouTube shorts of baseball. And like

• 27:15Speaker 01

  Baseball.

• 27:16Speaker 00

  Baseball highlights. And if you ask me, Kwame, do you like baseball? I'm like, I respect the sport. I hate watching baseball. I never watched baseball. But then the algorithm told me, well, you like highlights. And I'm like, I like baseball highlights more than any other sport. I hate baseball. I don't, it doesn't make sense.

• 27:36Speaker 01

  Oh, my, what, what is it about, should I start watching baseball highlights? Like, what is amazing about it?

• 27:42Speaker 00

  Well, you know, you have, what, baseball games are what, 12 hours long?

• 27:47Speaker 01

  Like seven days, you're like, bring a tent, yeah.

• 27:49Speaker 00

  And then you have one epic highlight, a diving catch, like, wow, that's like, you have these, these spurts of incredible athleticism. And also, the baseball fights are so good.

• 28:01Speaker 01

  Fights? Oh, wait, like people in the stands?

• 28:03Speaker 00

  No, no.

• 28:04Speaker 01

  Or baseball players?

• 28:05Speaker 00

  Baseball player is like, hey, you hit my player, so next time you're up and bad, I'm hitting you. You think that was an accident, I'm hitting your friend next. Okay, now we're obligated to fight. So it's like a culture of honor. At a certain point, they're like, well, we're all fighting now.

• 28:21Speaker 01

  I did not even know. So you're saying that like if somebody accidentally gets hit by a ball, like, oh, no, that was very on purpose, very personal, and there's almost like this retaliation kind of thing going on.

• 28:33Speaker 00

  And sometimes to make it clear, they'll throw behind the player. So it's like, oh, in case you thought this was an accident, you know, the base is over on this side of you, I'm throwing on the opposite side to make it clear that I'm aiming for you.

• 28:46Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. So there's like this whole psychological intimidation layer to baseball because you know what, those like professional ballplayers, you get hit with a ball, it's going 90 miles an hour, like that could hurt.

• 28:58Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 28:59Speaker 01

  And so they're psyching each other out.

• 29:01Speaker 00

  And then there's also

• 29:02Speaker 01

  I did not know that.

• 29:05Speaker 00

  It's so good. And then there's a higher bar for how much you can yell at the ref. So you can yell like inches, I'm talking inches, to, close to their face, you can yell at the ref for like two minutes before he throws you out. And there are these people who do like lip reading. And so sometimes, again, culture of honor, a manager says, okay, you know, my team is really mad about these calls, I'm going to have to have this conversation with the ref. And so they're close to, and they're yapping at each other. And so then you're actually, the reading of the lip says, listen, listen, okay, I understand that you're mad. Yeah, I'm mad. Okay, do you want me to throw you out? Yeah, I need you to throw me out of this game.

• 29:49Speaker 00

  Are you sure you want me to throw you out? I need you to throw me out of this game. All right, you're out of there. Are you kidding me? This is ridiculous. So he's like, I need to make a stand to my team and I won't, they won't believe that I've got their back unless I yell at you to the point where you throw me out of this game.

• 30:07Speaker 01

  I see. There's performance art. There's theater happening in baseball.

• 30:13Speaker 00

  Yes, apparently.

• 30:14Speaker 01

  I had no idea.

• 30:16Speaker 00

  Me neither. But the algorithm serves me one, they're like, hey, man, you want this? I'm like, no. Wait a second.

• 30:24Speaker 01

  I mean, I could understand why, though. Like, this conversation just locked a whole other dimension of reality for me. I will never look at baseball the same way again. I thought it was like, you know, actually about hitting the ball. That is not what's happening.

• 30:36Speaker 00

  No, it's about, sometimes it's about hitting people, you know? But you see, it's very, the algorithm gets and it takes away. It's so, so funny.

• 30:48Speaker 01

  Okay, can I ask you a question, though? And this actually just is coming up. Okay, so like, you're talking about this whole other psychological thing happening in baseball, which is fascinating to me. So with the art of negotiation, with your specialty, so I know, and from our previous conversations, that you are coming into this as a warrior of the light and of like, I'm your new best friend. I'm here to help you. You love me, I love you. It's gonna be great. And like, that is a very powerful place to be when it comes to effective negotiation. But are there also dark arts in negotiation where you are like intimidating a little bit? Like throwing a baseball at someone? But were there other times that you did some of that where they were like, ooh, okay, like?

• 31:29Speaker 00

  There are methodologies. I'll give some examples, not, not the ones that I use, because for me, I see more long-term value in the relationship.

• 31:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, you don't want to burn it down totally.

• 31:42Speaker 00

  And, and the reputation too.

• 31:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:44Speaker 00

  But there are subtleties. So for instance, proxemics. So the study of the, how close you are to people. And so what's interesting-

• 31:53Speaker 01

  Uncomfortable.

• 31:54Speaker 00

  Exactly. And so you become, everybody has a personal bubble. And so it's a different size for different people culturally, right? And two. But I remember talking to, there was, actually, actually this CIA agent, Jack Schaefer, he was on the podcast, he talked about in his, one of his books, I believe it was his, one of his books, he said, yeah, when you understand proxemics, you could actually move people without them recognizing. So imagine you're in a networking event, you know, when people are standing, they will naturally shift weight from time to time.

• 32:26Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 32:26Speaker 00

  And so they, and so he's, he started to play with proxemics. And he's like, okay, cool. I want to see how far I can move this person.

• 32:35Speaker 01

  Like herding them around the room like a shepherd?

• 32:37Speaker 00

  He moved him to the other side.

• 32:41Speaker 00

  Aggravative, right? And so you see Donald Trump, if you look up a compilation of him shaking people's hands, I feel like some people might have been dislocated. Cause he's a big guy. He's like six two, six three, and he's got some girth to him. You know, he's a, he's a big dude. And so it's, it is cartoonish sometimes, because he'll grab the arm and pull them. It's like, it's, if like, from a weightlifting video perspective, it's full range of motion with a row. And the, a great example is, I think it was one of the Supreme Court justices Gorsuch, was one, you see, it's in front of all these cameras and you go to shake his hand, he's like, pop!

• 33:23Speaker 01

  I, is there any video of him trying to do that with Vladimir Putin? Cause I'm very curious.

• 33:29Speaker 00

  No.

• 33:30Speaker 01

  Vlad would have handled that differently.

• 33:31Speaker 00

  He would have handled, and Vlad would have flown, because he, you know, all horseback riding pictures aside.

• 33:39Speaker 01

  With a no shirt on, like, right?

• 33:41Speaker 00

  He, he, he, he knows, I believe what, Sambo? So like, in a martial arts type of context, he, he knows how to, to handle himself. But size wise, he's much smaller than Trump. So just when you think about inertia and mass and physics, and if you're not expecting that, there, there would have been an impact. But also, there was, there's an odd respect between the two. The psychology matches in a way where it's almost like two people who have very dominant psychologies kind of utilize each other.

• 34:13Speaker 01

  I could see that.

• 34:14Speaker 00

  You know, it's a very interesting thing. But yeah, when it comes to that, there's like the, the harder than normal handshake, the talking over people, the positioning at the table, I'm going to be at the head, you're there. Sometimes it's the height of the table, the size of the, the table to, behind the big table, big desk, you get a little table, you're at the kid's table. These types of games, even positioning with regard to sunlight. So, am I going to put you in a room where you are uncomfortable? The sun shining in your eyes, not mine? I remember talking to some folks who were in a procurement negotiation, and they were put into this room that was really, really hot. And they were saying, listen, we're getting a deal today, we're ending this negotiation now.

• 34:59Speaker 00

  And they'll, obviously, the team had, that had leverage, was saying that, come to our place, we're doing that. They gave them no drinks and just like heated them up, you know?

• 35:08Speaker 01

  You know, psyops. My God, and these are like conversations, the negotiator too, is like, okay, so here's what we're gonna do, like.

• 35:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:16Speaker 02

  I actually, I actually want to say a tactic that I see from Kwame that is very interesting.

• 35:22Speaker 00

  Oh, tell me.

• 35:23Speaker 02

  And it's that-

• 35:24Speaker 01

  Oh, we're gonna spill some tea.

• 35:26Speaker 02

  Kwame is very tall, and he's fit. And when he goes to talk to you, he's like, hey, what's up? I bring donuts. So you have like a big shock, because you're thinking that one of the best negotiators on earth is gonna be very intimidating, very serious. So he comes on the other way. And he, he, he talks, he knows where he goes. He knows where he goes, but he's smiling, he brings donuts, he talks to you like very, he makes you feel really, really at ease, so that he makes sure that the, you know that when, when negotiators are very intimidating, then the regret rate is very high. So after the negotiation, you, you call back and say, no, no, I don't want the deal, you know?

• 36:09Speaker 02

  I, I was still manipulated, and now I don't want the deal. But in this case, and not only Kwame, many, many negotiators that have come to the podcast, they make you feel really, really relaxed. So, you, uh, it, it's like, uh, really difficult to match the person that you've seen in front of you with the level of friendship that they bring into the conversation. So I think that this is a very smooth tactic, because no one can see it. And then people end up saying, wow, Kwame is like very open, and then he gets really good deals, because he makes people feel really, really at ease. And I think that's very, very smart and very subtle.

• 36:53Speaker 00

  I think, try this. Pull up your notes from a meeting last week. Do they still make sense? Or do they just seem like random notes that only the old version of you could decode? That used to be me. And as a negotiator, that's a real problem, because my job is to listen, not type or write notes. That's why Granola has been one of my favorite tools, period. It's an AI-powered notepad. I jot my usual rough notes, and then Granola securely transcribes the meeting in the background. And when it ends, I get clean, structured notes that still make sense a week later. Decisions, owners, next steps, everything that I would need to feel good about going forward. And it works through your device's audio too, so there's no additional setup or any annoying AI joining your call. Just your normal meeting, but with superpowers.

• 37:39Speaker 00

  If meetings are eating up your day, Granola is a no-brainer. You can try it totally free for three months. Just go to granola.ai/kwame. That's granola.ai/kwame to get your time back. Get three months free at granola.ai/kwame. If you were going to take a big swing this holiday season and start a business, what would you build? Maybe it's that one idea that you can't stop thinking about. I've built a business from the ground up, and I can tell you that the hard part isn't the idea, it's getting it live. That's where Shopify comes in. You can sell everywhere people shop, online, in person, across social media, even in AI chats. And Shopify checkout with Shop Pay converts up to 36% higher than the competition.

• 38:24Speaker 00

  So more of the people who show up actually buy. Plus, Black Friday is when more people are already shopping and ready to buy. So the sooner you're live, the better. If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to Shopify.com/kwame to start your free trial. That's Shopify.com/kwame. Go to Shopify.com/kwame to hear your first-

• 38:47Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 38:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:48Speaker 01

  So, is that something you're doing on purpose, or is that just you?

• 38:51Speaker 00

  It's both. It's, it's-

• 38:53Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 38:54Speaker 00

  Because it's-

• 38:54Speaker 02

  Be honest, be honest.

• 38:58Speaker 00

  It is both.

• 38:58Speaker 01

  What's the truth?

• 38:59Speaker 00

  Cause if you chat with me and we, we hang, you'll see the, like, you know, the, the lovable teddy bear side of me, right? And then giving myself permission to be that guy. And I recognize the psychology too, because I always say, in my mind, I'm saying, I'm going to be so warm and collaborative that it would make it abundantly clear to everybody that you're the bad guy in this situation. So I think about it, when I'm very, very, very assertive in one thing, where there is zero wiggle room or negoti, like negotiability on this, and it is the frame game. The psychological framing of the interaction, the storyline for the interaction. Who are you? Who am I? What are we here to do?

• 39:41Speaker 00

  I'm very flexible in other negotiations, but that subconscious subtle negotiation, I will never lose it.

• 39:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:48Speaker 00

  And so, because a lot of times, most people, when they think about the psychology of negotiation, they're thinking tactics, strategies, what's actually said in the negotiation? They are un, completely unaware of the framing of the interaction as a whole. And a lot of times, the framing is the, the, the foundation upon which your strategy is built.

• 40:05Speaker 01

  Okay, so what, and just to define our, when you say framing, what are we talking about exactly? Like the, okay?

• 40:12Speaker 00

  So this is the storyline. So coming into this conversation, I'm, I'm identifying your role, my role, and what we're here to do, before anybody else can. So Lisa, so let's say it's a really contentious negotiation, and you're meeting me for the first time in person. And I greet you with a big, warm smile, I'm like, as, let's say it's a lawyer-to-lawyer negotiation. Lisa Marie, it's so great to meet you in person, thanks for coming. Listen, I know our clients have been going at it for a really long time, and today, we have an opportunity to try to get them a little bit of peace. I don't know if we'll be able to figure this out, but I'm looking forward to working with you as kind of the adults in the room, to see if we can make this work. So tell me, give me a little bit of background, how are you seeing this?

• 40:56Speaker 00

  And so, it's really hard to come at me as an asshole at that point.

• 41:00Speaker 01

  Well, now you're saying, we are on the same team, and we are sharing a higher mission, we're here to save these people, we're gonna work together, we can do it. Like, the leadership, you're like, and that is masterful.

• 41:13Speaker 00

  Exactly. And now, let's say if they push back, they're like, listen, your client has done some incredibly horrendous things to my client, this is ridiculous, we're ready to, to litigate if we, we can't come to a deal today. I'll say, listen, I, I definitely understand where you're coming from, and I think a lot of mistakes have been made, and we can work this out. But if you feel the need to, to go to war on this, I complete, I respect your decision to do that. We still have 30 minutes left in this meeting, so why don't we see what we can do? You know, it's like, it makes it very, very hard to keep that same energy. And then there was a great book called The Charisma Myth. Um, Olivia Fox, I believe is the author. And she said, her description of, of, of, um,

• 41:58Speaker 00

  of charisma was a blend of power and warmth. And so let's take it back. This is going to seem off topic, but I'll bring it back. So when I was doing the TED Talk in 2017, I was motivated a lot by vanity when I started exercising. Cause I said, I'm going to be on stage. I've developed a dad bod. I'm about to start exercising.

• 42:19Speaker 01

  I will be beautiful. I will dazzle them all.

• 42:22Speaker 00

  I need to look good. And so I, um, I got in better shape. I was fitter. And then I said, well, I accomplished my fitness goals, but I feel mentally really clear, much clearer after exercising. So I don't want to stop. I've always been the, the skinny kid, but I wonder if I could put on more muscle. And then I recognized, cause I'm always paying attention to how people treat me. And just like analyzing people, analyzing body language, et cetera. And I realized that people became more deferential as I became bigger and stronger. And so for me, I realized that when people are contemplating power and stra- power and status, at the end of the day, we're still social primates.

• 43:02Speaker 00

  So money finance is one thing, but like physical size still will register. And so for me being six, two, two, 20, um, people aren't expecting that in person. A lot of times, because they only see the, the headshot.

• 43:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:17Speaker 00

  And I get that, I get it in person like, wow, you are way bigger than I thought you were. Right? So it's again, with, when you have those interactions, people are ready for a fight. They say, oh, the negotiation expert. Oh my gosh, he's huge. I'm intimidated. I'm scared. And then he's just like loving on me. And then friends, I'm kind of confused.

• 43:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, it's disarming because people are like, wait, wait, what's happening right now? And like, what, what information do I take it? But I could see that also sort of creating a receptivity if they, they don't know what's happening right now. And that you can then define it for them.

• 43:57Speaker 00

  Exactly. So it's like, why wouldn't I accept this frame? Cause all, all of the things that we, we talk about in psychology about trust, psychological safety, open body language, all of the, all of the single signals that are signaling safety are conflicting with the, the status signals that make you feel scared. And it's like, if this person has power and status and he's really being intentional about making me feel safe and talking about how we win. Let's see how far this goes. Oh my gosh, all the way to the conclusion. And even after the conversation, we're still warm and friendly. I got more than I thought, and I gave him way more than I thought I would. And we're both better for it. Wow, let me tell people about this guy.

• 44:39Speaker 00

  And then the reputation does a lot of the persuasive work going forward.

• 44:45Speaker 01

  That there's almost even a subconscious desire to align with someone like you.

• 44:51Speaker 00

  Exactly. I want to be a person who people want to work with. Where after you, you get enough data points where you see the, the consistency between who you see online, who you meet in person, what I'm saying, and the deals that I'm offering, the offering and the creative solutions I'm creating. You're saying, well, it seems like selfishly, it's in my best interest to, to work with him. Why wouldn't I? You know, and I think it, it doesn't hurt to know, well, if I wanted to tango with Kwame, he's still a negotiation expert and lawyer. So it still gives me a little bit, a lot of protection because even though I'm very open and warm, I'm not concerned about people taking advantage of me because I know I have the skills to protect myself.

• 45:38Speaker 01

  That's so good. That, that it's really backed up by a lot of power. Can I ask you another question though?

• 45:44Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 45:44Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 45:47Speaker 01

  So here's what I really want to know. You are coming into this with so much intentionality and so many, um, not just natural gifts, but also like a lot of skills and have such a strong track record, like making the magic happen. Has there ever been anyone that either you could not touch with all of these powers? Or was there someone that you did not want to, um, do this with?

• 46:17Speaker 01

  Maybe two different stories, but who's, who's immune to the powers of Kwame is what I want to know.

• 46:23Speaker 00

  I will say there were some mediations where I could not get through. So certified mediator done hundreds of mediations. And they, there are some times where somebody is with a mediation, people are coming to you on sometimes like their worst day of their life.

• 46:38Speaker 01

  Oh, of course. They're not okay.

• 46:41Speaker 00

  Charm, affect, labeling, validation and acknowledgement can, can get through that. And then you just kind of have to deal with what you're dealing with there. It wasn't rude or disrespectful, um, in most cases, but it was just like, oh, this person is not, not playing. Um, let's just stick straight to business. That's the best anybody could do under these circumstances.

• 47:03Speaker 00

  There were, there's some people, I'll put this one to the side because it was court appointed mediation too. So you had all kinds coming through and there, there are some times where, um, there were people who I think were suffering from other issues. Um, they would call and all you, you heard was that you, you could just see my, hear the voice, they don't know really who it is. They just think I'm a court of employee and everything. And they just come with a lot of heat and you just take the heat. That's the, that's the role in the cases. But for people who actually know who I am interacting, I will say, at least a great, look at Simone as I say this. Um, I will say that there were, in the thousands of interviews that we've done,

• 47:48Speaker 00

  at least there were two people that I could not get through to.

• 47:56Speaker 00

  And one was very good at turning it on once the camera went on. And when you listen to it, you would not know.

• 48:08Speaker 00

  You would not know. And when the interview ended, he, he just bounced.

• 48:15Speaker 01

  Like bye.

• 48:16Speaker 00

  And the first thing I said to Simone was, Simone, I guarantee you, he does not know our names.

• 48:26Speaker 00

  Yeah. He was a, you know, a big deal. And, but I've heard that I'm not the only person who has had that experience. When I've shared that with other podcasters behind the scenes, they're like, oh yeah, that's, that's this guy. Um, but another one I think was, I think it was a bit of neurodiversity, to be honest. They're numbers oriented. It wasn't that he was mean. He was just like, was just zero warmth at all. You know, and, um,

• 48:57Speaker 00

  yes. Um, but other than that, I can't, I'm really trying to think. There was one time, one time, cause we have to deal with some big clients. Every, every big logo we have, we have to remember we're negotiating with less leverage than Google, Apple, NASA, Intel, whatever. You know, so they, they, they swing a lot of weight. And I was talking to one of my team members, cause we got a question and I was trying to think about how to create content about this. What happens if somebody's threatening you in a negotiation? Or tries to intimidate you in a negotiation? And I was talking to her about it. I said, I don't know, even know if I'm qualified to answer this question because I feel like that doesn't happen to me. And she's like, um, sometimes it does. I've been in those calls with those big clients. You just think it's cute and it doesn't register to you.

• 49:42Speaker 00

  And she's like,

• 49:43Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 49:44Speaker 00

  Yeah. She said, other people in that same situation would have felt pressure. You just don't, because it, it wasn't a threat. So that was an interesting one. So I think the fact that I have the skills to, to fall back on. It doesn't even register as something that's too difficult to deal with anymore. So like the direct challenges, I have answers for it in warm, charismatic, joking way where doesn't register as a threat to me. And I think it's disarming to them where they're like, why would I continue trying?

• 50:17Speaker 01

  That's so interesting though, that your, your actual perception of what is happening in that moment is different. And you feel so like equipped to handle it. And it's sort of like another day in the life, like this is what I do, not a big deal. That you are calm and managing it well. But it is like, not even experienced as a, um, taking a hit, so to speak.

• 50:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:43Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's why it's so important to, to lean into the conversations. Cause every, the way I think about it, every conversation is practice. As long as I don't die. You know, as long as I manage to survive this conversation, I'm going to have another one. And as my goal is to maintain form as well as possible. It, sometimes the reps are heavy, uh, but you just have to maintain the form. And so when I have that mentality, I don't perform with much pressure anymore. It's just about looking at the art and science of it. Making sure everything that I do is, is foundational.

• 51:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. But I mean, was it always that way for you? Again, because you have so many natural abilities, obviously, but like earlier in your career, did you?

• 51:27Speaker 00

  No.

• 51:27Speaker 01

  Or did you, okay.

• 51:28Speaker 00

  No, no, no.

• 51:29Speaker 01

  There's a, a path of, uh, development.

• 51:32Speaker 00

  This was, this was learned. Yeah, this was, this was definitely learned. Cause I think about those, those years of being a younger lawyer, like just like fresh out of law school, all reputation, um, nobody knows me, et cetera. You know, that those, those years, there was a lot more to deal with, more people were more willing to throw things at me. And then also I didn't have, have the same depth of skills. But then once I started to think about everything as a rep, you know, then I say, okay, if I just dedicate my life to making every conversation better than the last, then at some point I'm going to get to a point where it just, you're like, like unbeatable. You know?

• 52:15Speaker 01

  So good.

• 52:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. But like, but even when you did have challenging moments, that the mentality was, I am practicing and getting better every time, which also must've been so sustaining. Was there a, an experience though, that you were like, that was a learning experience that was formative?

• 52:34Speaker 00

  You know what? There, there is one, and it doesn't really relate to, um, negotiation in general. Like in particular, but I think it relates to power and status and psychology in a really interesting way. So, oh, okay. Trivial question.

• 52:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:53Speaker 00

  So too, let's see, let's see who comes up with the answer. If you're at a networking event, where do you find the introvert?

• 53:03Speaker 01

  At the bar, I don't know, or stay by themselves.

• 53:06Speaker 00

  So what's your, what's your answer?

• 53:08Speaker 02

  Uh, wow, no, I don't know. I don't know.

• 53:11Speaker 00

  The bathroom.

• 53:13Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 53:14Speaker 00

  That is the refuge.

• 53:16Speaker 01

  Not in the room. So go hang out in the bathroom.

• 53:19Speaker 00

  Yep. So there was one inter, one networking event that I once, um, and it was my boss at the time, she was getting an award at this really fancy club in Columbus. And we were going there, fancy fancy club, et cetera, big weeks right there. And I get to the room and I drove with her and her and her husband to the event. So now I'm in the room and um, I have the like, the least status in the room, like the lowest status. And so I'm trying to talk to different people. And even when I would see people who are my friends, I'm like, oh, thank God, a friend I could talk to.

• 53:59Speaker 00

  They would chat with me for a little bit and then I would see them look over my shoulder and see somebody higher status and say, oh, okay. Hey, great time with you and go. And um, and I remember in that, in like, probably thirty minutes of networking, I went to the bathroom like five times. Cause there were so many times where I was looking around, nobody was talking to me. I was like, oh, okay. I don't want to be the user by himself. I just go to the bathroom. Okay, we're going to come back. We're going to find somebody to talk to, talk to them. Then they see a bigger fish and they go talk to that person. And again, my boss was the ride and she was getting an award, so she's going to be there the whole time.

• 54:38Speaker 01

  Trapped.

• 54:39Speaker 00

  I was just stuck, trapped there. And I said, hmm, this will never happen again. And so I said, I'm going to figure out what it is that will draw people to me in these situations. Cause this is deeper than just having human value, like, hey, I'm a good person. It's like, no, what is it that they're seeing? And so that's when I started to think about like the psychology of status, psychology of respect, power, perceptions of power and things like that. What is it that I'm not showing that makes people literally, truly, objectively see no value in communicating with me in this instance?

• 55:18Speaker 00

  So I said, I told, I remember telling a friend, like soon after, cause she was at the event. Uh, and she's like, oh, Kwame, I'm so sorry. It's like, nah, that's it. The Kwame Christian is not somebody you pity. I'm going to figure this out.

• 55:32Speaker 01

  You're stuck. Right.

• 55:34Speaker 00

  Next time you see me, best believe I will have.

• 55:39Speaker 01

  I'm gonna win this networking. That's right.

• 55:43Speaker 00

  Never happen again. So yeah, that was, that was one terminal experience.

• 55:47Speaker 01

  Then what happened? How did you win networking? What did you do differently? I, I have to know.

• 55:53Speaker 00

  Uh, I disappeared for like years and went into the cave.

• 55:59Speaker 01

  Is there like a training montage?

• 56:00Speaker 00

  Yes, insert training montage. And it started building the American Negotiation Institute. I was like, we, we have learned our lesson. We are going into the dojo and we are building something special. And so, yeah, that was.

• 56:16Speaker 01

  Okay. So, so, so the, I mean, that's a long game though. You're like, all right, if I want to be in these situations and have influence, I need to come in having built something that other people value and want to be able to be perceived as powerful and valuable in these moments. So it's not like you just got a, got a new haircut or like, you know, send me a little mustache wax or like you, or I'm going to build an empire and next time you see me, you're going to want to be my best friend. Cause you earned it. Okay. Well, that, that's not like a, you know, one, two, three, little listicle. You have to like go build a, build a really successful business.

• 56:53Speaker 00

  And fun fact, fun fact, one of the first things that I was focusing on was my LinkedIn profile. I said, okay, how do I redesign this? And the big thing that I was focusing on for many years, like at least a year, was the, the connection, the amount of connections that I had. And I said, my goal is to get over five hundred connections. Because if I get over five hundred connections, then nobody knows exactly how many connections I have. Because it'll just say five hundred plus. And it's like, that, that'll show me.

• 57:28Speaker 00

  Baby steps.

• 57:29Speaker 01

  Goals. Goals are so important.

• 57:31Speaker 00

  Yes. We, we have successfully achieved that. Thankfully.

• 57:38Speaker 00

  But yeah, what about you? Do you have, when you look back at, at the moments that made you, do you have a moment that really stands out? If you were going to take a big swing this holiday season and start a business, what would you build? Maybe it's that one idea that you can't stop thinking about. I've built a business from the ground up and I can tell you that the hard part isn't the idea. It's getting it live. That's where Shopify comes in. You can sell everywhere people shop, online, in person, across social media, even in AI chats. And Shopify checkout with shop pay converts up to thirty six percent higher than the competition. So more of the people who show up actually buy. Plus, Black Friday is when more people are already shopping and ready to buy. So the sooner you're live, the better.

• 58:23Speaker 00

  If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to Shopify.com slash Kwame to start your free trial. That's Shopify.com slash Kwame. Go to Shopify.com slash Kwame to hear your first.

• 58:37Speaker 00

  Every year, I swear that I'm going to get ahead of holiday shopping. This year, it started with a Quince cashmere sweater that I bought for myself. It was so soft, so well made, and my first thought was, who else on my list needs one? Quince makes high quality staples with one hundred percent Mongolian cashmere and Italian leather. And their cashmere sweaters start at just sixty dollars. All of it is fifty to eighty percent less than similar brands because they work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. As a negotiator, I know a great deal when I see one. This is luxury quality without the luxury price tag. I use Quince and you should too. Give the gift of quality this season. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or just go to quince.com.

• 59:21Speaker 00

  Get free shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty five day returns, now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Kwame with big swings only. That's the best way to support the show.

• 59:36Speaker 01

  Oh, so many, so many of them, and good and bad. You know, I think that there's so much to be learned through all life experiences. I mean, I definitely think part of my origin story, what launched me on this whole thing, was a moment, actually, uh, we, we just, we just passed the anniversary at the time of this recording for nine eleven. Being a very, a young person and sadly, my, my cousin Jimmy worked at Cantor Fitzgerald, which you, if you recall, was, was one of the um, organizations. I think it was one of the, the first places that got hit. And so we, we lost him. But you know, it was one of these moments that was really powerful.

• 1:00:19Speaker 01

  It was terrifying, but it was also like, um, you know, as I did, memento mori, right? Like, remember you will die, which sounds so morbid, but there's a lot to support it. I mean, philosophers, Carlos Castaneda, I mean, writing about it. When we are in contact with the fact that we're not going to be here forever. Maybe, maybe we're not going to be here sooner than you think. It, it can be really galvanizing and put you in touch with your values in um, a very motivating way. And so I had that experience with my, with my cousin. It really pushed me into contact with this existential crisis almost, you know, being a young person and like,

• 1:01:03Speaker 01

  I don't know what I'm doing and, and really focusing in on, I really like um, helping people, you know? I, I like being part of their process. It felt meaningful to me to be able to help other people in their development. And so that is why I went to counseling school in the first place is was that like meaning that came from my experience of not, not just loss, but a traumatic loss. Because it wasn't just that somebody passed away, but you know, young guy minding his own business, it left the house in the morning. He had no idea that something like that would happen. So I think it's the unpredictability of the end too, was part of that for me.

• 1:01:44Speaker 01

  So that, that was definitely impactful.

• 1:01:46Speaker 00

  Wow. Wow. So I'm sorry for your loss and I tell you, what an incredible testament and tribute to him to, because in his passing, you've given so many people new life with the work that you do.

• 1:02:01Speaker 01

  But I think we all have that, you know what I mean? Every single person experiences loss, experiences hardship. And I think that there are some really interesting things that we can do with those moments. I mean, obviously, as you've done in your own life, to think about um, who do I want to be in this moment? But also like, what is this pushing me in contact with if I let it? I think there's so much of our culture where we have um, demonized or pathologized, honestly, all kinds of dark emotions.

• 1:02:35Speaker 01

  Anger, fear, grief, loss, anxiety. But like, when we're able to actually let that in and what is this telling me about me? Like grief is a great example of that. And you know, so like, part of what I do these days is training therapists in coaching psychology, which is different than clinical psychology. And so typically a therapist will view a dark emotion as, as a form of psychopathology, especially when people are stuck in it. But in a coaching mindset, it is, tell me, what about this is true? If we listened to this, what would it mean? And so like, let it in.

• 1:03:19Speaker 01

  Now, of course, if there are clinical mental health conditions, our feelings are no longer reliable reporters. And so we need to like, figure out, is this major depressive disorder? And we handle that differently. But like, in the experience of grief, all grief is, is telling us what's important to us. What do we care about? What do we want? Yeah, that's all it is, illuminating our values, illuminating what we love.

• 1:03:45Speaker 00

  That's powerful. So the, the three words that I'm holding to are if we let, oh, for if we let it.

• 1:03:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:58Speaker 00

  If we let it. And so

• 1:03:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:04:00Speaker 00

  So let's go deeper on that.

• 1:04:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:02Speaker 00

  Because it sounds like there's something there, but there is some kind of acceptance or release that needs to happen in order for us to avail ourselves to it. So dig into that.

• 1:04:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. That's a really good point. And also, we need to understand, like, where is this really coming from? And so we need to rule out things that will scramble the antenna, because a lot of real deal clinical mental health conditions, they change the way people feel, and they change the way people think. And so i- if, if you are in that state, you shouldn't do what I'm about to say, because it won't be productive and it might make it worse. So that's really important. I like what we were talking at the beginning about, um, you know, the importance for it to have a really well qualified professional walk into this with you. So like, you know, and no shade on, on life coaches. I think there are a lot of them that do fantastic work, but the clinical capabilities to really know what you're looking at and

• 1:04:57Speaker 01

  how to treat that is sometimes not there. So I honestly think coaches need more support from clinical people. Right now, it's like vampires and werewolves, like they hate each other, can't be in the same room, but we're gonna change that. I, I might need your negotiation skills to like bring, bring people to the table.

• 1:05:13Speaker 01

  But to say, uh, you know, to lean in, I think is first of all, to be receptive to the fact that there might be a lot of value in dark emotions that we have been socialized to dislike, to try to get away from. If I feel this way, it means something is wrong. So those are all barriers to being able to like come closer, friend. What are you trying to tell me right now? And so much is unlocked when we can help people do that. But it requires a lot of emotional safety, a lot of acceptance, because people can become very afraid of their own feelings.

• 1:05:48Speaker 00

  Ooh.

• 1:05:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's a really interesting way to think about it and very meta too, because it's fear, which is a feeling of other feelings too.

• 1:06:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:06:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:06:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:03Speaker 00

  Say more about that.

• 1:06:05Speaker 01

  Well, I think, again, our socialization and I think, um, I, I, I don't want to over generalize, certainly not on, on gender lines. And many times I think that women have had more acceptance and almost coaching around feelings and what to do with them. And it's kind of okay to feel this way and right compared to men, where I think just a lot of the messaging is nope, shut it down, like bad, get away from it. Um,

• 1:06:35Speaker 01

  and I will also say that in my experience, men are just as emotionally alive and capable as women are. I, I think that socialization can create some differences.

• 1:06:47Speaker 01

  But I think that because of these messages and the fact that it's uncomfortable. I mean, it doesn't, doesn't feel good. It doesn't feel positive and pleasurable. And we're in the grips of like intense anger or fear that we can believe that something bad is happening. It's destructive. It's wrong. Uh, and so what people try to do then is change the way that they feel. And avoidance, I mean, you can go into like the substance use route. That's also very effective, even things like self harm and cutting. As, as people trying to change the way that they feel. And so to create like safety and understanding and like, what you were saying, trying to shape the narrative of like, there is value here. Um, but, but again, this is why it's experiential, Kwame, like you can't

• 1:07:33Speaker 01

  tell somebody that and they're like, oh, okay, light bulb, like people actually need to be in the presence of a guide who like through that physicality even it's gonna like, I'm actually not going to let you get away right now. We're gonna stay here, but I'm going to help you feel safe enough to do this right now so that you can experience what happens next, which would not happen if they were alone.

• 1:07:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, you're so right. And especially when you think about the, the propensity to experience emotions, I feel that we, we both genders, males and females, they often, they, they experience the same thing, but it's the willingness and the, the perception of social acceptance around the expression

• 1:08:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:08:15Speaker 00

  of those emotions. And something that I don't think is said enough is that I think men are often jealous of the fact that men can express themselves more. Where it feels like

• 1:08:29Speaker 01

  That's awesome.

• 1:08:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, because it's like, man, I wish I could share more. I wish it was okay if I could share more. And then, but then there's also too, the reality that when you think about the way that people are socialized, there's often a social penalty associated with male emotional expression. And sometimes within a, let's make it easy here with like a heterosexual relationship. Sometimes a, we don't recognize the amount of, it's not just the amount of emotional intelligence and strength that's required to be vulnerable. But there's a high degree of emotional intelligence and strength that is required in order to receive somebody's vulnerability.

• 1:09:11Speaker 00

  And sometimes within that relationship, there's a social penalty that the woman gives to the man, though the man says, you know what? Never again. We're not going to do this.

• 1:09:21Speaker 01

  True.

• 1:09:22Speaker 00

  Yeah. Have you seen that in your diet, in your, in your, um, your work?

• 1:09:27Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. I mean, I think it's common for people to say they want one thing. And then when somebody actually tries,

• 1:09:37Speaker 01

  I, I mean, it's so hard for me as a marriage counselor to see somebody trying vulnerably to share something and having a authentic moment that is then like slapped down. If there are those consequences.

• 1:09:52Speaker 01

  And so that is also something that needs to be managed experientially. How do we keep two people safe in these moments in order to share them? Because the other thing, when it does come to, I think, male emotionality, yes, all the capacities and all the same experiences. Socialization is different, but also sometimes a, a skills gap, because they haven't had opportunities to kind of practice and and figure out how to do that. That is very developmental, which again is very easy to pathologize as a therapist, by the way. So we're talking about a coaching mindset here. How do we help you, um, you know, broach this conversation or know what you feel and then say it out loud? And why is that valuable?

• 1:10:35Speaker 01

  Because even that might be missing sometimes. Yeah.

• 1:10:39Speaker 00

  That's

• 1:10:39Speaker 01

  There's a lot here.

• 1:10:40Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:10:41Speaker 01

  And in a culture, wait, I just need to say one more thing. In a culture that is so primed right now to demonize men in a way that is also very different, Kwame, even the last three, four, five years, I am seeing so much of that.

• 1:10:57Speaker 01

  I feel like that matters.

• 1:10:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, it does. And you know, to that point, it's, it's very easy for us to think about this just as a, an American phenomenon. But I have been, I'm not an expert, obviously, in this, but as it goes beyond our borders, the, there are gender wars happening in other cultures. I've seen, um, some, some research on the effect it's having in South Korea.

• 1:11:21Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:11:22Speaker 00

  And yeah, it's, it's having significant issues and it's part of what's, um, the, the fertility crisis that they're having, the replacement rate is, is very, very low, like cataclysmic. And like one of their major concerns. So it's, it's really interesting. But again, it kind of circles back to what we're talking about with the algorithm too. Because the most toxic content is what goes furthest. And if you are a woman who has been hurt by a man, and there have been many, or you're a man who has been hurt by a woman, and there have been many, um, you're, the algorithm will hear your complaints and give you what you want. And then we have the, we could say toxic femininity on one side and, uh,

• 1:12:04Speaker 00

  Andrew Tate adjacent characters on the other side, right?

• 1:12:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, I hear you. Yeah.

• 1:12:09Speaker 00

  Yeah. And then when somebody is essentially, you know, radicalized, it's difficult to bring them back.

• 1:12:17Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. It really is.

• 1:12:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:12:19Speaker 01

  Such good points. Okay. So I, I, I am curious though, like, so as a, a podcast host.

• 1:12:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:12:27Speaker 01

  How, because, okay, so what I've experienced on love, happiness and success more and more is like some people coming at typically women with this like, you know, mindset and, and they want to talk about, you know, women, innocent victims and all these terrible things that men are doing. And there was actually an interview that I scheduled not, um, it's probably a month or two ago. And sometimes, you know, I get booked with people and I don't know a ton about them, but as part of my research project, like they, they sent me the book, started flipping through it. And as, as I was reading this book, I was like, oh no, I don't think I can do this because it was all about the, the division of labor and how women are, you know, like, uh, put it, put into these almost like servitude roles and expectations of their relationships and

• 1:13:11Speaker 01

  and men kind of like, you know, leave it all to the women and whatever. And so which I think is certainly some people's experience. I was saying it never happens. But anyway, so this, this woman came on and I just straight up, I was like, I don't know if we should do this interview today. And let me tell you why, because this conversation that you're going to have with me is not going to go the way that you think it's going to go. Because I have different experiences. I have different perspectives and I, I will be talking about that. And she was actually like really receptive and she's like, really? She, this is a sociologist who had done a lot of research and so had like evidence to support this. It turned into the most fascinating conversation that was really balanced. And, um,

• 1:13:56Speaker 01

  yeah. So, so that, that was a save and it was really productive. But does that ever come up on your podcast? Like when you're talking to people who are sort of representing points of view and you're like, I don't want to be part of that algorithm.

• 1:14:09Speaker 00

  Hmm. Oh, such a great point. Um, so kudos to Simone and the team. They do a good job of filtering.

• 1:14:17Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:14:18Speaker 00

  So honestly, no. And we've done what? Over a thousand interviews. So

• 1:14:25Speaker 01

  A lot of podcasts.

• 1:14:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's, um,

• 1:14:27Speaker 01

  But I'm your favorite.

• 1:14:28Speaker 00

  Oh, 1,000%.

• 1:14:30Speaker 01

  Just checking, just checking.

• 1:14:31Speaker 00

  Doubt here. Cause I'm thinking there have been times where I might say, oh, that's a tactic I wouldn't use. There was one time, there was one time we cut one of the things that somebody said completely out because it was just flagrantly wrong and I wanted to protect him. Simone, you might remember this. Great interview otherwise. And this was not, it was not even topical. This was about three years ago ish, and it was not even part of the topic. And he just said,

• 1:15:04Speaker 00

  It's so funny. Okay, this guy said, and listen, let me tell you something about AI. People are worried about AI taking your jobs. AI will not take a single job. I guarantee you, AI will never take a single job. Listen, anybody listening to this podcast, if AI takes your job, email me, I'll send you 50 bucks. I was like, this bro is going to go broke instantly. Cause I was like, there was news a month ago about thousands of layoffs. So that was the only time somebody said something flagrantly wrong. We're like, we cannot post this.

• 1:15:41Speaker 01

  That's good. Yeah. But you're protecting him. That was very nice of you.

• 1:15:45Speaker 00

  That was wise. But thankfully, no. But I think it's mainly because of our vetting process. We had one person who made it through. And we updated our vetting process and I had to cancel day of and I had to tell him straight up why. Without naming names. It's somebody who has accomplished a lot and did a lot of good work. But then, let's say, caught a case and was not treating women very well. And the, like, there was no conviction, but there was enough evidence. There was like some international jurisdictional things that made that difficult. And I said, hey, man, listen, I apologize.

• 1:16:30Speaker 00

  Cause the interview was coming up in two minutes. And I was like, hey, listen, I, we cannot do this. And we can't do it for these reasons. And I apologize just straight up. And talked to him and his booking agent about it. That was awkward. But he just can't do that. Can't, cannot be seen like platforming or supporting something like that that hasn't been really addressed. But yeah, other than that, I think it's been, we've been pretty fortunate.

• 1:16:57Speaker 01

  That's awesome, though. But I love it that there's a responsibility to your community and to algorithm as a whole, to be able to be careful about whose message you promote.

• 1:17:07Speaker 00

  100%. Wow. Okay, great. Simone, let's bring you in. And also, kudos, I think I might like you, Lisa Marie, because this is our longest interview.

• 1:17:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:21Speaker 01

  And see, I wanted to win Kwame's favorite guest. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna take that as a win. All right.

• 1:17:30Speaker 02

  Well, I think that the good chemistry that you have together is because you, you both are two sides of the same coin. It's like the same message with different envelopes. Let's start by Kwame's definition of negotiation. He says that a negotiation is every conversation where at least one person wants something. So it is, it is relationships, it's just relationships. So what would you tell, if you had to join forces to give an advice to someone who tells you, I'm not a conflicted person. I just avoid, if you take advantage of me, I just let it pass, avoid.

• 1:18:14Speaker 02

  Avoid once, avoid twice, three times, four times. But if you do it 10 times, then I become a monster and I explode. But I'm not conflicted at all. It's just that I am pacifist, but I have a limit. So what would you tell to that person?

• 1:18:35Speaker 01

  Well, for starters, I'd be a little bit curious if there was some passive aggressive stuff going on in between the, you know, first time and the 10th time when the explosion happens. But what you're describing is actually a very common pattern for very nice men, where they believe that they are protecting the relationship and doing the right thing by not engaging in conflict. Because again, they're afraid of the feeling. Anger is bad, conflict is bad. So the, the new idea is that you're not doing anybody any favors by avoiding these things. In fact, here's why it could actually be damaging to your relationship. Instead, here's how to have a constructive collaborative conversation that improves your relationship.

• 1:19:20Speaker 01

  But it starts by recognizing, oh, I don't like this, right? Feel frustrated or annoyed? How do I, how do I broach this in a constructive way? And that's that skills gap. A lot of people really don't know how to do it. And so it's, it's not a conscious thing, but after a while, they give up, they explode. And that is actually quite destructive to a relationship, especially when that becomes a pattern. But people do not have, they don't know that a lot of times. They're just doing the best they can.

• 1:19:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's, it's kind of like a pressure cooker, you know? Pressure cookers are great for making food. They also unfortunately can be used to make bombs. Right? That is, that is one of the things that people could use it for. Don't look it up. Don't look it up.

• 1:20:06Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:20:06Speaker 00

  FBI will track you. Okay? So this is, it's true. The thing is, you have to have a pressure release valve. And to Lisa Marie's point, there's a reality that if you think you're holding it in, there's probably some emotional leakage that's happening in the meantime.

• 1:20:21Speaker 01

  Always.

• 1:20:22Speaker 00

  You know, and so you're taking those little digs, hiding behind plausible deniability. No, I didn't mean anything by it, et cetera. You know, and so again, you're not doing anybody a service, you know? And so for me, it's, I like to give people the opportunity to, to adjust and course correct. Cause the most loving thing you can do is let the person know the impact that they are having on you. Because think about if you were doing something unknowingly hurting your partner, wouldn't you want the same respect given to them, to you, right? So when you think about it from the other perspective, then it becomes very clear that what you're doing is destructive, you know? So just keep that in mind as you. I don't know if you can hear my kids downstairs.

• 1:21:07Speaker 01

  I love it. They're practicing it. They're telling you somebody's unhappy.

• 1:21:11Speaker 00

  Exactly. Kai is trying so hard to keep Dominic quiet. And now we have some emotional leakage from Dominic. So let's land the plane. So Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby, hypothetically, if you knew how, if you could give somebody a piece of advice, what is one thing that they could do or listen to to get more happiness, success and love in their life?

• 1:21:49Speaker 00

  If you were going to take a big swing this holiday season and start a business, what would you build? Maybe it's that one idea that you can't stop thinking about. I've built a business from the ground up and I can tell you that the hard part isn't the idea. It's getting it live. That's where Shopify comes in. You can sell everywhere people shop, online, in person, across social media, even in AI chats. And Shopify checkout with Shop Pay converts up to 36% higher than the competition. So more of the people who show up actually buy. Plus, Black Friday is when more people are already shopping and ready to buy. So the sooner you're live, the better. If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to Shopify.com/Kwame to start your free trial.

• 1:22:34Speaker 00

  That's Shopify.com/Kwame. Go to Shopify.com/Kwame to hear your first. Try this, pull up your notes from a meeting last week. Do they still make sense? Or do they just seem like random notes that only the old version of you could decode? That used to be me. And as a negotiator, that's a real problem because my job is to listen, not type or write notes. That's why Granola has been one of my favorite tools, period. It's an AI-powered notepad. I jot my usual rough notes and then Granola securely transcribes the meeting in the background. And when it ends, I get clean, structured notes that still make sense a week later. Decisions, owners, next steps, everything that I would need to feel good about going forward.

• 1:23:18Speaker 00

  And it works through your device's audio too. So there's no additional setup or any annoying AI joining your call. Just your normal meeting, but with superpowers. If meetings are eating up your day, Granola is a no-brainer. You can try it totally free for three months. Just go to granola.ai/Kwame. That's granola.ai/Kwame to get your time back. Get three months free at granola.ai/Kwame.

• 1:23:46Speaker 01

  I think there's two things.

• 1:23:48Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:23:49Speaker 01

  First is get more curious about yourself and other people. This idea, why, why does this make sense right now? And be open to the answers. But I think the other thing is this idea that change is possible and it requires intentional effort. And you can have a different experience.

• 1:24:15Speaker 01

  But you have to believe you can.

• 1:24:17Speaker 00

  Listen, that's all well and good. That's fine as an answer. But the right answer is listen to the Love, Happiness and Success podcast. Come on, how much easier of a setup could I have given you?

• 1:24:31Speaker 01

  You know, but that's, I have failed. You're right. See, I'm so, I'm not good at this.

• 1:24:38Speaker 00

  It's got like eight million reviews. It's such a good show.

• 1:24:43Speaker 01

  You're so sweet. Yes. Come listen to my pod. Well, you know what? Because I have people like Kwame come on the show. And I mean, really, people who know what they're talking about and give good advice and are also very, very generous. My favorite guests are the people who are really here to serve. It goes in with that values mission. And that, that's what I'm trying to do with every episode.

• 1:25:06Speaker 00

  There we go. We will put a link in the description. And we'll have the link where we were having a lover's quarrel. And fun fact, we remember when you talked about the, the guest on your podcast who was talking about the asymmetry of invisible labor at home.

• 1:25:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:20Speaker 00

  That would, if you remember, that was the, the negotiation we had. I was your wife.

• 1:25:26Speaker 01

  Well, cause no, really, I'm, I'm the dirtbag at my house. So that was very easy for me to do. Like if anybody's gonna get yelled at for not unloading the dishwasher, it's gonna be me.

• 1:25:36Speaker 00

  This has been delightful as always. Thank you so much for coming on the show.

• 1:25:40Speaker 01

  Such a pleasure, Kav. You're so much fun to hang out with. And you too, Simone, you're gonna be on my favorite people list from now on.