How to Stay Idealistic Without Being Naive: Varun Sharma

Varun Sharma has spent years working in green energy and hydrogen. So why is he now taking on defense and oil & gas clients? Kwame Christian welcomes Varun back to the show to unpack "pragmatic idealism": holding on to your ideals while staying honest about how power actually works. Drawing on a decade in Estonia on NATO's eastern edge, a father who served in the military, and his years in government, Varun explains why strength prevents conflict instead of inviting it, why doing nothing is still a choice with consequences, and why polarization is costing us the middle ground. Kwame also asks the question he poses to audiences in his trainings: would you rather have every negotiation skill in the world, or all the power and leverage? Varun's answer reframes the whole question. Plus: China, batteries and the geopolitics of the energy transition, AI and job losses, and Varun's three-step process for making hard decisions when your values pull in different directions. CONNECT WITH VARUN Sapient Ventures: https://sapient.ventures Varun's previous episode: Stop Talking: How to Use Silence to Win Any Deal Connect with Kwame: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Request A Customized Workshop For Your Company⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Follow Kwame Christian on LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠negotiateanything.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Click here to buy your copy of Finding Confidence in Conflict: How to Negotiate Anything and Live Your Best Life!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ @kwamenegotiates across all social platforms #Negotiation #DecisionMaking #Geopolitics

• 0:00Speaker 00

  If you listen to this show, you're probably one of two people. You're someone who's trying to improve their communication skills and learn how to resolve conflict. Or you're a dealmaker who's trying to learn how to get an edge in their next negotiation. So you could either make more or save more. The American Negotiation Institute is built for both. We have keynotes for conferences, workshops for teams and courses for everyone. Because the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. Playing it safe is easy. Playing it safe is comfortable. But here's the problem. Playing it safe and playing by rules that were never meant for you will never take you to the next level. If you've got what it takes to hit the ball out of the park. The only thing holding you back is whether you're brave enough to take a big swing.

• 0:45Speaker 00

  I'm Kwame Christian and this is Big Swings Only. Every week, we're telling you the stories of people who fought their fear, chased the life they actually wanted, and became who they had to become to get it. This show is built for people who are meant for more. Because if you really want to get to the next level, you've got to do something big. So the question isn't whether or not you've got what it takes. The question is whether or not you're going to swing. You were built for more and this show was built for you. Subscribe now.

• 1:17Speaker 01

  So all of the geopolitical conflicts and all of this, you know, it resurged only recently. And you know, my dad was in the military. And I started to think

• 1:29Speaker 01

  that it's really important that countries are defensive and strong enough to survive in today's world. Because there's geopolitical conflicts turning into military conflicts all over the planet right now, right? And I was conflicted because I always wanted to focus on, you know, Sapien ventures. So upgrading humanity, right? And, and it was, it was an internal conflict. At the same time, I obviously know all the stories, you know, my dad's been in war situations. And I was wondering what drove him and why he did it.

• 2:10Speaker 01

  But I think a lot of people who are in the military, when they start, they're so young, they're not thinking about all of these things, right? They're young, they have a lot of energy. You know, you could even say especially men, they're a bit hot blooded. And so they get into it and then eventually over time, as they get older, they get indoctrinated in a, in a way, even I'd say.

• 2:30Speaker 01

  But I was thinking, okay, I understand this part. I've worked in government, I've worked in, you know, democratization of entrepreneurship and, and other things which I'd love to do. But what happens if you're being attacked? You know, I see that in Ukraine, which is right next to Estonia, Russia's borders bordering with Estonia. And so it was quite a, quite an interesting internal conflict. I spoke to a few friends, few people. And eventually what I realized, especially now with all the oil crisis also going on, right? That the best path isn't on the left side of the aisle or the right side. It's somewhere in the center.

• 3:15Speaker 01

  And I think as a people, we've all forgotten that. We tend to be more polarized. So everything is left wing or right wing, Republican, Democrat. Either I like working with this person or I dislike working with this person. It's not about how can we just get along? Sometimes you may not agree with someone, but you know, you still end up working with them. And this is something that I had already learned when I was working in government. Because a lot of times you might not agree, but you learn how to find common ground, right? And so for me, it was more about finding that common ground with myself. Because now there are some solutions. So for example, with the hydrogen fuel cells, you know, hydrogen fuel cells, that's green energy, right?

• 4:00Speaker 01

  But hydrogen fuel cells can also be stealth power for the military. Because there is no noise, there's no smoke, there's zero heat signature. So drones can't spot the energy source. Because normally when you have these drones flying around, they would look for heat signatures, right? Because you have a diesel generator or a gasoline generator running. But in this case, you don't see it. And at the same time, you're like, okay, do I really want to venture in the military space? And be part of that whole military industrial complex and all of that, right? But at the same time, if you don't have defensive posture, then you're open to being aggressed by someone else.

• 4:40Speaker 01

  And I, and, and, and how it started, how it started coming down for me was I started thinking, why do you go to the gym? Is it just because you want to stay fit? Because to stay fit, you could also just go running, right? But a lot of guys, and also more and more women, they want to go build muscle. Because they want to look strong, right? You want to have those big arms and a broad chest and, you know, boldering shoulders. And why is that? Because you want to portray strength. But that doesn't mean you're going to go and attack every second person on the street. Actually, it's quite the opposite, right? So when you are strong, you don't end up aggressing other people.

• 5:22Speaker 01

  And also you don't invite that much aggression from other people. It's just, there is this primal instinct, which will probably always be part of us. Until the next evolution happens, which who knows how long it'll take. But it's really important that you have strong posture, right? And that's the middle ground. So we apply it to ourselves at an individual level. But then we start getting idealistic because we want to be accepted by each other.

• 5:54Speaker 01

  And so we don't want to talk about, oh yes, I deal with military equipment. Why is that so looked down upon? Or for that matter, I work in the oil and gas business, you know? Whenever someone says that, you're like, oh yeah, okay, you're like those Wall Street guys. You know, you only care about the money. But maybe that's not true. Because now with the Strait of Hormuz closed, the whole world's suffering because there's no oil available, right? And logistics is, is, it's total chaos. And now even the good guys and the good businesses, they're suffering, right? So I think there is a transition and we should recognize that. We're in a moment of transition.

• 6:35Speaker 01

  And for that transition to happen, you have to recognize the dark side of what we still require. It's essential. Because if you don't have that, if you're not a nuclear power, probably Russia or the US will come and attack you. Or I won't say the US, I'll say Trump will come and attack you, right? Not to make it political, but that's the reality of what we see right now, right? India has been a nuclear power for a very long time. And even though we have very tense relations with Pakistan, with China, you don't see us fighting all the time. And one of the main reasons is because they're both nuclear powers.

• 7:18Speaker 01

  So there is that, you know, deterrence of mutually assured destruction.

• 7:24Speaker 01

  And so that's where now I've come up with the fact that if we want to keep upgrading humanity and keep doing net positive things, then you have to recognize the dark side of things. You can't just be all about idealism. It has to be pragmatic idealism, right? That's the point.

• 7:42Speaker 00

  Yes. Oh, there's so much to explore here, Varun. Because I think a lot of folks, we would love to be the, the angels, the angelic figures in the world, the doves, you know, the, the folks who go out and help and solve problems and things like that. And it comes from a very good place. I, I know both of us have that element in us. But then we also have to recognize that sometimes in order to, to effectuate our goals effectively, we find ourselves in a position where we have to make really difficult calculations. Every decision comes with consequences. Every decision has collateral damage. In war, it's real, actual collateral damage in a physical or structural type of way. But in our lives, if I'm making a decision that's beneficial to me,

• 8:26Speaker 00

  it's often the case that it might have some unintended downstream consequences to people who would have rather me done something else, right? So if I'm just simply selecting between different contractors or different vendors that I would like to use, by choosing one, I am by definition not choosing another, which causes harm to them. But that doesn't absolve you of the responsibility of making the right decision for myself, right? And so sometimes we have to just appreciate the fact that the world is complex and we have to do the best we can. And that's why I love that idea of pragmatic realism too. And the, I think one of the things that we don't fully, I, I think there are some people who are very uncomfortable with the reality of power and the power of power.

• 9:11Speaker 00

  I think we underestimate it sometimes. So one of the things that I've, I've started to do in some of my trainings is ask the audience this question. And it's very interesting to see which, which way the people land. And then it spurs a very interesting strategic, but also philosophical question. So let's say if you have a situation, you could either have 100% of your, of the negotiation skills available to humans. So you have all of the best negotiation skills, strategies and tactics at your disposal at all time with perfect execution. Versus having no negotiation skills at all, but all of the power,

• 9:55Speaker 00

  all of the power and all of the leverage on your side. And now you're walking into a negotiation, which would you rather have? And it's, it's interesting because people, a lot of people say negotiation skills. And I say, okay, cool. Well, now let's put you up against an almighty toddler that all they say is no, right? Then what do you do? You put the best negotiation expert against a toddler, the toddler isn't guaranteed to do what you want. And we can't do anything if we don't have power. And the, when people would ask me when I lift, like, why, why do you lift so heavy? And yes, there's an enjoyment thing. I like the endorphins, there's community. But I would also add this point, I say, well, I, my goal is to be strong enough to deter aggression.

• 10:40Speaker 00

  So I am proudly O and O, zero wins, zero losses in fights in my whole life. Because nobody wants to try. And I think you can become, what's interesting is that you can navigate the world with more warmth and compassion. If you don't just focus on the good things that you want to create in the world, but also making sure that you're taking the time to protect yourself effectively. So you don't need to be on guard all the time. And so there's a, there's that pragmatism to it. And I think it would be cool to see when it comes to your worldview and the, the change that you want to see in the world. How does this mentality, along with your recent business shift?

• 11:21Speaker 00

  How does that manifest itself with the way that you are effectuating change in the world that you see?

• 11:27Speaker 01

  So um, right now I'm further building my B to B go-to-market advisory practice. And I'm taking on also defense adjacent businesses. And what I mean by that is anything which would increase geopolitical defensive posture and strengthen it. I'm absolutely open to taking them on as a client, introducing them to my network. You know, I've worked in the public sector. We talked about it last time. And so I have those contacts. I wouldn't have done it, I think, maybe five years ago.

• 12:11Speaker 01

  But in the past five years, the world has started to change. And you know, all of these changes, they show us something, right? So they show us that we need to take that middle ground. I'll give you a small example, and maybe you know, or other people know their own versions of this example. So I was on stage last December. There's ADIPAV, which is the business, you know, the Financial Times of Estonia. Right? And they had this conference on balanced economy. And the last question I got on stage was about, you know, Europe is regressing, the West is regressing. And energy is one of the big topics, because I've been working in green energy and hydrogen and all of that for a while.

• 12:54Speaker 01

  And they said, what are your thoughts? You know, what can we do about it? And I said, the thing that you can do about it is be structured in transitioning. And Europe has this problem, and I think the US, it has gone a little bit to the other extreme now, since Trump came into power. Now, Europe has always had this problem, or not always, but for quite some time now, that they want to be idealists, right? They want to save the world. It happened with the migration crisis, you know? There was an influx of refugees. It created unrest societally. People weren't able to adapt, and it didn't do good for anyone.

• 13:35Speaker 01

  Neither did it do good for the people who ended up coming in from Syria, the Middle East, Africa, you know, wherever. Nor did it do any good for the Germans, or the Italians, or, you know, other places, right? Portugal, I was just in Lisbon, and you see that, and it's not great.

• 13:53Speaker 01

  What Switzerland, on the other hand, and I lived there and I studied in Lausanne, you know, for seven years. What they did very interestingly was, when there was a geopolitical conflict happening in Sri Lanka, they brought in people as well. But they made sure that they had a plan where they helped them settle in. And so now those people get along with everyone else, you know? You see that happen, actually, the only country in the world where you see that happen in the most beautiful and interesting manner is actually the US. Right? But then somehow, problems have now started to emerge. But then you can also look at a modern example of Dubai. The whole world is there, right?

• 14:38Speaker 01

  There's Muslims, Hindus, Christians, there's even Palestinians and Israelis, there's Indians and Pakistanis, there's Russians and Ukrainians. And sure, there's heated discussions. I was just there before this whole conflict started, actually. And I left because this was kicking off, because I had this inkling that something might happen, as unfortunately it did. But I had friends who got stuck there. I still have friends who I'm speaking to. And now things have started to calm down. And they all tell me, yes, there's tensions, but here, everyone understands that this is the melting pot. And this is not who they are. Right?

• 15:20Speaker 01

  And for them, it's important that we understand each other, we get along. And it's interesting that these places exist, because then they speak to people back home and tell them the other side of the story, which otherwise they would never see on the mainstream news. Or, you know, the news that they're consuming, or the YouTube content, or the Facebook content that they're following. Because that's what they keep seeing more of. Right? And so that's my focus right now. So it's very much on finding that sweet spot where the transition can happen. You might end up working on oil and gas deals.

• 16:00Speaker 01

  But that doesn't mean that you're, you know, a rich oil monger who doesn't care about the planet, or any of that. You're actually solving a problem. What's important is, if you get proceeds from those deals, then the majority of it goes into transitioning. Right? So I think there's a, there's a sweet spot. But being so polarized, it's not doing us any good. It's creating more rifts. And maybe we needed to go there, but I think it's high time that we start to come to the middle ground. Politically, energy-wise, whichever way, right?

• 16:43Speaker 00

  Yeah. So it sounds like, if we were to encapsulate this, Varun, it sounds like the point that you're making is bigger than any of these individual examples. It is the recognition that today, everything is so polarized, everything is so extreme. Even when it comes to our strategic considerations, we're doing ourselves a disservice by not recognizing that there has to be some kind of transition from where we currently are to where we want to be. So, for example, we are, we understand that we are in the present, and then we can acknowledge that there are problems or challenges around us. And then we can determine a preferred end goal, an end state, in maybe two, three, five years, whatever it happens to be.

• 17:26Speaker 00

  But then we have to recognize that the way that we get there will look different in different circumstances. And that process might make us, put us in a position where we have to make really difficult decisions that might need to, that might require us to compromise a certain element of ourself. But it is a strategic compromise, because we're doing it in this moment to move us forward. So example, when it comes to defense, or oil, or whatever it happens to be, you might recognize that even though we have an aspirational change in mind, when we want to create this green future that's a little bit more sustainable, we have to recognize that we are still constrained by the fact that the majority of what is required to stay alive is tethered to oil.

• 18:10Speaker 00

  We're seeing that now, when it comes to the effects of what's happening in the Middle East with the Strait of Hormuz closing, and a, like, inflation going up, and prices for everything going up. We can't deny the reality of the current importance of oil. So when we transition, we have to keep that in mind. And it might cause us to have to make strategic compromises in the moment. But we have to stay focused on the end goal and take the most effective path there while being pragmatic in the process.

• 18:39Speaker 01

  I think you phrased it very well. The one thing I noticed, and I'm just pointing it out, right? So you talked about compromise. And when we hear that word, we already start to feel a little bit constricted. Right? Because we're thinking about this situation like it's a compromise. It's not a compromise. It is just the reality of the situation. Right?

• 19:07Speaker 00

  That's a good point.

• 19:08Speaker 01

  So, and that's the thing, that when we use these words, you know, whatever we're telling ourselves, you start to feel guilty. Right? And that starts to bother your conscience. It happened with me very recently, when I was talking about the defense thing, right? And I was like, but I don't want to have blood on my hands. But that's pushing it too far. By not doing anything also, you have blood on your hands. Right? I'm sure all of us know that movie, A Few Good Men. Right? You know, because the guys didn't help that soldier. Right? They were still guilty, because they didn't take action. And that's very true in life.

• 19:50Speaker 01

  If you're not doing something about, you know, what's happening in the world, then you're, you're still party to it, because you're just sitting and waiting and watching. And you're saying, oh, I don't want to get involved in that. Well, why not? You know, of course, there is a balance and you have to define that balance for yourself up to what degree and in what way you want to be part of it. But you have to do your part and you need to figure out what works for you. And it's honestly, I can't tell you what that is. You can't tell someone what that is. It's a feeling. It's a sense, you know, there are certain things we can talk about on the podcast or in life. And then there's a lot of things that you just feel. And I think that's the other thing that people forget.

• 20:33Speaker 01

  To experience life and really see what are they feeling about a certain situation? Do you feel good about it? You know, if you're not feeling comfortable about something or negotiating with someone or doing business with someone, even if you can't put your finger on it, it's already telling you something because ninety percent of communication is body language perhaps. Right? And then there's also aspects around energy and all of that. I believe in it, you know, and it's not just a belief, to be very honest. It's true. You know, um, we, we understand probably two percent of the known universe because ninety eight percent is dark matter. Or the percentages might differ, but you know, ninety plus percent is dark matter and we understand a little bit.

• 21:15Speaker 01

  And then we say, oh, you know, I can reason and rationalize everything. And it's just not how it works. So you have to feel the world around yourself. You have to experience it and then decide, okay, this is where I am and this is what works for me. And this is the balanced middle path that I'm going to take on, you know, what I'm doing. And this is how I support my country.

• 21:43Speaker 01

  I'll give you an interesting example, especially because I think most of your audience is American. And when, um, you know, I've been in Estonia for ten years and it's right next to Russia. And the NATO forward foot, uh, let's say headquarters in a way on the eastern front is very much in Estonia, right? And a lot of my friends have been, um, American special forces guys or, you know, people who are working for the US embassy. And I've had discussions, some were pro-Trump, some were anti-Trump. Some had internal conflicts in their own families where the parents were pro-Trump, but they were like, oh, my God, I don't know how to talk to my family anymore. All of that.

• 22:29Speaker 01

  And there was a time when I was younger, uh, when I was like, yeah, you know, he's a terrible guy. And, you know, everything he does is wrong. But if you look at it, um, he's definitely not the best speaker. But, uh, there is some sense in some of the things that he has done. Right? Uh, I'll, I'll give you an interesting example. So, and this is coming from someone who has been working in sustainable energy and green energy for quite some time now. Right? I used to even, uh, co-organize the largest sustainability conference in Northern Europe.

• 23:02Speaker 01

  He came in and he said, you know, we're done with batteries, EV, all of this out, right? Um, and hydrogen, you know, we don't care about it right now. Too expensive, too whatever. We're going to focus on drill, baby, drill and oil is everything. And of course, that, you know, focus is also not great. But what was happening earlier is the reliance on EVs and batteries has been growing and increasing at a very exponential rate. Right? The US is one of, if not, I think it is the largest consumer market in the world. Who's the largest supplier?

• 23:44Speaker 01

  China.

• 23:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 23:46Speaker 01

  Right? They're the largest producers of batteries. They're doing it extremely well. I mean, you see BYD right now, uh, the Blade Battery and everything. And they already have massive manufacturing facilities, which are totally automated. Right? They're also the largest, um, hydrogen market in the world. And they do it for one tenth, if not less of the price versus even Europe. Right? But if we were to all start immediately moving towards EVs and hydrogen only, then also what would happen is there would be a geopolitical shift in the world. And I'm not sure if we'd want to live in a world where China is now the new superpower

• 24:31Speaker 01

  and communism is all of, you know, all over the world and we live in autocratic societies. I don't know how many of us would, uh, you know, want to live in that kind of world. So when we're preaching, um, green energy, ecotourism, all of that, then it's very important to consider the broader implications. So Trump isn't stupid. He's very intelligent, right? Cause he saw that happening. And so what he did is because maybe, you know, he's a firm believer that the US should always be in power. Right? Um, and he, he, he sort of went the complete opposite way. But I think there is a middle ground somewhere where we continue to transition.

• 25:16Speaker 01

  But the transitioning shouldn't mean that all of a sudden we sell ourselves to, uh, countries perhaps with whose way of governance and, you know, values don't really align with ours in the free world. Right?

• 25:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:31Speaker 01

  But so those are things that I think it's, it's really important for us to sit with ourselves. Um, and, and think about them because,

• 25:41Speaker 01

  you know, it's very easy to criticize someone just because of what they're saying. But maybe we should dig deeper and also understand why are they doing that? And I haven't seen this being recorded, by the way, on mainstream media either. But if you just reason and if you worked in geopolitics, um, and, uh, geo-economics, as I have, uh, you know, international trade, you, you can pick up on these little things and it makes total sense, right?

• 26:06Speaker 00

  Right? This is fascinating because it, it speaks to the complexity of all of these issues.

• 26:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:11Speaker 00

  So you could be somebody who is, um, green and wants to create positive change in that way. And then also recognize, like you described, there might be some polit, policies that consider things that you have yet to consider. Because if you're just looking at it through one vertical, then life becomes very simple. But when you add the, the fact that everything is intertwined and interconnected in some kind of way, life becomes more complex. And then every decision requires a, a set of different trade-offs that you have to consider. And you have to do a cost benefit analysis that sometimes can feel near impossible, which is why so few many, which is one of the many reasons why so few people actually step into the arena

• 26:56Speaker 00

  and have these types of conversations and do these types of things because of that complexity. But it allows you to be in a very safe place to be able to point and criticize and say, look, look at this, look at the thing, the bad thing this person did or, or what. But if you look at it in isolation, the analysis varies, is very simple. But when you think about the interconnectedness of the decision-making, it becomes very, very difficult. And I, I think about the, um, the Dunning Kruger effect, where the, uh, the less you know, the more confident you are because you can only see but so much or know so much. And, uh, you know, for me, I didn't do any international po, policy work, but I did study, um, domestic policy, like US policy and whatnot.

• 27:41Speaker 00

  And I just recognize again, it is very difficult and very complex. And usually, not all the time, but usually if I hear somebody say, why did they do this? Because all you need to do is, I'm like, and anybody who says all you need to do, they are most likely missing a large chunk of the calculus.

• 28:04Speaker 01

  I, I totally agree. And, uh, with all of this, there's always, uh, another perspective. And that's why I said what's important is when you have this conversation with yourself. And I'll, I'll go as far as saying it's actually common sense, at least like how it comes to me. And I think sometimes we end up over-intellectualizing things. You know? So, uh, if you just sit with certain situations and what's happening in the world, you can understand why they're happening. You know, I, I explained one of them, right? Um, and of course there's details and there's, you know, uh, um, history and, and a lot of stuff, which is, which is great.

• 28:50Speaker 01

  But if you want to find, because for me, when I think about these things, right? It's always to find, okay, I have all of these pieces of information. What am I going to do with it for myself? Uh, that I am actually working with these things, right? It's not just to read and be an academic scholar. That's not who I am. I'm a practitioner, right? I enjoy being, you know, in action and seeing that, okay, if I did something, there's a result. That's one of the reasons I left working for the government because it takes quite a while for you to start seeing those results. You stay involved in the process for a long time. And at times, especially I think if you're young,

• 29:36Speaker 01

  you feel you're, you're stuck in this process and nothing's happening. Um, and in some ways that's a good thing because then you end up leaving like I did and trying to do something on your own. And hopefully you can grow it to a level that you're able to make a meaningful impact. Now, whether that's positive or negative, it's always debatable. Right? Uh, but what's important is that you are comfortable with it. If you yourself are conflicted and that's when the problems start, right? Because then you're not happy. You're not, you know, um, sleeping well. Uh, you're not performing well as a result. You're probably not being a good parent

• 30:20Speaker 01

  or a good spouse or a good sibling, whatever it might be. And that's when the world becomes a more sad and negative place to live in. Right? So all of these things, I think that they're so interconnected. But for you or for me, what's important is whatever we're doing, we are comfortable with it. And if you and I sit across the table and you have a conversation with me around Varun, you know, why are you, uh, right now focusing on, uh, defense technologies? Um, and helping them enter new markets or this cross-exchange of training and information? Then I can tell you, well, Kwame, you see the world we live in. This is what's needed.

• 31:06Speaker 01

  It's the same thing, you know, if you have conversations and most of this generation has, uh, unfortunately passed away or they're very old. I mean, Second World War, right?

• 31:16Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 31:16Speaker 01

  Uh, you talk to your great-grandparents.

• 31:21Speaker 01

  Uh, or for some, maybe even their grandparents. But uh, what choice did they have, right? You had to be a conscript. You had to go to the battlefield. And they were engineers and authors and philosophers and, you know, psychologists and all of that. And they had to go into war and either be killed or kill.

• 31:42Speaker 01

  Right? Because you're fighting for your life. Uh, and we don't want to face that because we're like, you know, we're more advanced. We're more evolved. We live in the future. Um, yeah, but we still have the same uh, human biology. You know, and the, and, and the psychology. And so there will be conflicts and sometimes it turns into a physical fight. What can you do about it?

• 32:08Speaker 00

  Right. Hey, when I, I remember when I was practicing law more frequently. Um, that was one of the conversations I had to have with the clients very frequently. Um, it's the, somebody, there's a difficult situation. You might need to sue somebody or, you know, it, it, it gets a little bit contentious and they don't want to engage. And I let them know there's, that's truly not an option. Um, because you have to react to what just happened. It's not just gonna go away. And the, the thing that I would always say is sometimes the war chooses you. And it's your responsibility to protect yourself in those situations. And when you think about the, the prag- the pragmatic idealism, you realize when it comes to this, there are constant wars.

• 32:52Speaker 00

  And it doesn't need to be war in the traditional sense where we have warring factions engaging in like actual militaristic war um, on a national scale. There are things that we have to fight every day. Whatever it is that you care about, there's some kind of battle or striving that has to occur. And whenever you're trying to move in a specific direction, there will always be resistance in some kind of way pushing back. Even if you're going for a bike ride, if you go fast enough, you're gonna feel the wind on your face. There's some kind of resistance and we have to be ready for it. So when I, when you think about your own life and the, the big moves that you have made over the course of your life,

• 33:30Speaker 00

  what are the things that have given you the resilience to overcome that resistance and make difficult decisions?

• 33:40Speaker 01

  Um, I think over the years, it's changed. What's given me that resilience and uh, um, the motivation to change. It's been different things. And it's interesting that you also see it in the world with people like different things drive them. So with some, it's fear because maybe they grew up really poor. And then they work really hard uh, to build their lives. Um, for me, I think at one point it was frustration.

• 34:12Speaker 01

  Cause I was frustrated of working in process oriented things where things would never go anywhere. And I was like, listen, I wanna do something on my own. But I also had this fear, but the frustration, it reaches a point where it crosses the fear. So you're like, you know what? I'm, I'm done. I don't care about being scared anymore, but I need to do something about it, right? And, and then you start doing it. But eventually I'd say now, um, I've reached a pretty good place. And I, I developed a very deep sense of faith.

• 34:47Speaker 01

  And when I say that, I believe in God. Um, but for some people, it might be the universe. As I see it, it's all the same thing. There is definitely something higher. Um, I don't wanna say supernatural, but a higher intelligence at play, right? Uh, if there's too many coincidences sometimes and you catch yourself like, why is all this happening around me? It's not just a coincidence, right? Then there's a pattern. And you have to be honest that I recognize a pattern or could there be a pattern, right? You'll have to ask that question. And when I developed this uh, or reconnected with this deeper sense of faith, I'd say,

• 35:31Speaker 01

  I realized that sometimes things happen and you can stay calm.

• 35:37Speaker 01

  You know? You, you, you can be patient. You were asking this question around uh, if you had a hundred negotiation skills and you were um, having this power struggle or, you know, whatever with a toddler. One of the biggest skills uh, uh, as a negotiator that you would have is amazing patience, right? And if you are amazingly patient with a toddler, you will win that negotiation.

• 36:02Speaker 01

  Uh, but it's, it's, it's a test of patience, isn't it? Right?

• 36:06Speaker 00

  Right.

• 36:07Speaker 01

  So uh, so I'd always choose because if you have those skills on negotiation, on patience, um, listening, uh, all of that, then uh, you have power. You have the leverage. And that's real power, you know, cause it's not um, out there. It's very calm. It's, it's grounded.

• 36:32Speaker 00

  Right.

• 36:33Speaker 01

  And, and that takes experience, I think. Um, real practitioner experience. You can learn a lot about it on the YouTube videos, on listening to podcasts, like, you know, we're speaking right now.

• 36:45Speaker 01

  Um, but I think you really internalize this when you have those experiences.

• 36:52Speaker 00

  Right. Oh, very, very good. This is great. And Simone, I know you're listening. I wanna get you in. What, what is coming to mind for you, my friend?

• 37:01Speaker 02

  I want to share with you a personal anecdote. Uh, my sister last uh, month, she lost her job to AI. And as it's happening in Argentina and all, all, it, that's happening all over the world, right? So some people, I was listening in the news in Argentina, some people saying that they have to find a way to regulate AI um, technology and to try to stop AI from doing that. But, and then I was debating about that inside of myself, right? And said, okay, what happens if we do it ourselves here in the US, Canada, South America and Europe?

• 37:40Speaker 02

  And we, we create our own uh, way to censor or to stop AI from developing. But no one will do it in other countries. So what will happen in terms of defense, uh, businesses and everything is if we stop our developments, but we, there are other countries that won't do it. How, how, uh, how do you envision the future? Uh, with AI, if we do something like that, because I see that many people are asking for a way to regulate or stop AI from um, from uh, maybe doing like workforce or those agents. And there are other countries that don't care about it.

• 38:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:24Speaker 02

  They just work on that and develop AI uh, faster than us. So we're, we're giving them too much power, isn't that?

• 38:33Speaker 01

  Uh, absolutely. Uh, if, if we get left behind, and I'm even talking about us as individuals. If we get left behind in not upscaling ourselves and learn how to use AI, we're doing ourselves. And the people that we're responsible to, a disservice. Um, and why I'm saying this is because this is, it's, it is a massive shift. And if you look at AI itself, right? Like in the past five years, first the models came out and all you could do is have a conversation, right? And even those sometimes were glitchy, you know, people were posting funny things like I asked, I don't know, something around a calculation and it gave me a wrong number or whatever.

• 39:18Speaker 01

  And there were little glitches, right? And now AI has a, is at a level already where it can do sales, you know? And the people, I, I can give you my own example. So right now, what I'm doing with AI is I've always had these really amazing ideas around how sales should happen. But I've never been able to do it because I can't be a whole sales team. You know, but I understand the whole process because I've done outreach and in sales and as, as it is in negotiation, Quami, and maybe you can uh, come in here. The devil lies in the details, right? So it's, it's a little thing, the way you sit across someone, the way you look at them.

• 40:03Speaker 01

  You know, the timbre of your voice, how you speak to someone, the kind of messages and the words you use and all of that, right? But AI today has enabled us and will continue to enable us to do this at an exponential rate. And that was my point in the past five years. If you see how AI has grown, it's the typical hockey stick. And that's normally the case with technology development, right? So initially it was these basic models and then the new ones came out and was just conversational. Now there's open claw. There's like, you know, Claude Mythos, which can expose cybersecurity vulnerabilities.

• 40:44Speaker 01

  Countries are talking to each other on how we can be better and how those uh, vulnerabilities shouldn't be exploited. Um, there's China with deep seek, you know, and they're not getting the Nvidia chips, but they're still able to compete with a Claude or, uh, you know, OpenAI, ChatGPT, all of that, right? So this is normal. But coming to maybe giving you a, a different perspective on this. I had this conversation with someone the other day and I said, um, you know how everyone always says that there is a rise in ADHD or ADD?

• 41:22Speaker 01

  I mean, you hear people, you know, everywhere talking about, I have an attention deficit disorder and I'm taking this medicine. Right? I see it almost everywhere. I don't know about you guys, right? And uh,

• 41:36Speaker 00

  Oh yeah.

• 41:36Speaker 01

  I think I've had it for the longest time. I mean, if you see, I've been jumping around and doing different things for a while. Of course, there's a story behind it, but I never really stayed still. So maybe I have ADD, right? Um, and it's the way we frame it. So it again brings us to the same thing that is this uh, compromise, you know? Or is this a problem? Because now, and there was some research around this also, AI can predict behavioral patterns. And you know, thinking patterns for people who are normal. But if you maybe have a disorder, if you are autistic,

• 42:17Speaker 01

  or if you have A D D, then this is not a liability, it's an asset. And I'll go a little bit deeper, why it's an asset for someone who has attention deficit disorder? Because what do you want? You can't keep on one thing for too long, right? So what you wanna do is, you wanna start stuff, and then let it grow as quickly as possible, because you can't be focused on one thing for too long. But the thing that normally people who I've met at least, who have A D D or A D H D, they're really good at, is seeing the bigger picture and putting all of these pieces together, but they don't wanna work on the pieces. They wanna work on the big picture, but a lot of times, they obviously don't have the funds to hire a whole team and do it.

• 43:02Speaker 01

  But now that's possible, because you have A I.

• 43:05Speaker 02

  There is a famous nutritionist in South America.

• 43:08Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 43:09Speaker 02

  And he had many patients, many. So it was difficult for him to take care of all his patients. But what, he developed an A I agent in WhatsApp.

• 43:22Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 43:23Speaker 02

  So you have your doctor, and you go and see your doctor every, every month. But then the doctor is there so that you can ask questions in WhatsApp, every day in case you want. So at twelve, the doctor sends you a WhatsApp and says, hey, show me the picture of what you're eating. I want to see, I want to see if you're eating proteins and everything, so send me the picture via WhatsApp. And so this doctor find the way for A I to give him more workload than before. So he has more patients and more things, so the way we use A I can bring us more job opportunities and more money.

• 44:06Speaker 02

  So it's not always people losing their jobs through A I, but people making more money through A I too, right? If, if you, it's, it's just a tool that you can, you can let the tool work against you, or you can work with the tool to make more money.

• 44:22Speaker 01

  Absolutely, and maybe taking this a little bit further, so I've been using it like that very recently. Another example perhaps is for research and proposal creation. I literally start Claude and I dictate. And I just speak my thoughts out loud on how things could be, and then I'm sometimes conflicted, and I'm like, you know, I don't really know if this will work. I'm just thinking out loud. And I, I even record sometimes like on my voice memos on my iPhone. And I can copy the transcript, and then I take that transcript and I drop it into Claude. And I say, what do you think? And most of the time, and I'm really saying ninety percent of the time,

• 45:07Speaker 01

  it comes back to me with brilliant ideas, because it will go and research those ideas. It'll, it'll even, you know, I told you, I'm, I'm using like this multi-agent approach, and I, I, I don't have any coding experience, right? So I just told Claude that, hey, go connect yourself to Gemini and also OpenAI. And for a second opinion, ask the other A I sometimes. You know, because I know like ChatG P T is good at generating images, and Gemini is good at deep research, and Claude is good at reasoning and writing, right? So I, I learned that through experimentation. And I was like, listen, for these things, you'll use those guys, but otherwise, here's my ideas, what do you think?

• 45:52Speaker 01

  And it'll take its time, and like ten minutes later or twenty minutes later, it'll come back to me with a full proposal. And I'm like, I don't even think my whole team could have put that good a proposal together, right? Which is well cited, sourced, reasoned. And of course, I'm adding input, right? Without me, it would be nonsense, honestly. So I'm still valuable to that process, but I don't need to sit and format a Word document and waste my time.

• 46:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, for sure, for sure. And you've given me some ideas too, because we got the advanced level of Claude. And so we need to, to do a little bit more, especially with the agentic elements of it. Because you're right, it's like, bringing it back to, to what Simone was asking about the, his sister. It's the, the unfortunate reality is that people are losing jobs to A I. The other unfortunate reality is that it is, it's essentially the, the world's greatest game of game theory at the moment. Where you can see where, okay, there are some advantages of holding back, implementing regulation to enhance safety. But at the same time, the, the companies, the, the countries that are allowed to, to essentially go wild, wild west on this tech.

• 47:06Speaker 00

  They can get a lot of investment and do a lot of development. And sometimes, like we saw with Mythos, potentially doing a lot of damage at the same time. And so it's a really difficult cost benefit analysis for us to make on a societal level. Because even if somebody is saying, I wanna just put a complete stop on this tech, it doesn't mean that other countries are going to follow suit. And so that's the thing, how, what is the next best move that we can make, given the circumstances? And to your point, it's, it's one of those situations where you could say, okay, you, fair enough, you could be a conscientious objector, and say, I'm not going to engage in this, I'm not going to use it.

• 47:45Speaker 00

  And that also would have the consequence of making you less viable in today's marketplace too. So you have to determine what's important to you. How do you wanna compete? How do you wanna live? What is required to do both of those things? And sometimes what you have to do is recognize, hmm, I might see some, I might have some ethical friction with the tech. But at the same time, I also need to make sure that I'm doing what's best for me and my family, and, and putting myself in the best position to succeed. So it's a perfect example of how these decisions become complex, because there's so many cascading consequences, personally, professionally, and societally, when we think about this in, in like the full context.

• 48:26Speaker 00

  And I know we're coming up on time, Varun, so I wanna see, when it comes to, let's think, let's see if we can put some kind of mechanism on this, so people could try to replicate the way that you navigate the world. So when you're thinking about the, the shifts that you make, the, the moves that you make in business, and how you focus on getting the, the pragmatic idealism in your approach with, when it comes to solving these complex processes or problems. What is your approach for decision making? How do you think through it and then come to a conclusion that you can feel confident in?

• 49:06Speaker 01

  So I'm gonna think out loud, right, because I'm gonna

• 49:09Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 49:10Speaker 01

  on this. So I think the first thing that starts to happen with me is the feeling of this conflict, like an internal conflict. And I have, you know, initially you'll feel uneasy or uncomfortable. But eventually, the important thing is for you to consciously tell yourself that I'm gonna sit with it. And as soon as you do that, what starts to happen for me is somewhere in my mind and heart, some of the things and the pieces start to make sense. Right? And they start to fall in place. If I stay in this constant

• 49:52Speaker 01

  place of dis-ease,

• 49:55Speaker 01

  you know, disease or unease, however you wanna call it, then it, it doesn't go anywhere, and it just leads to frustration. So I think that's the first thing, that you just need to be comfortable with the fact that, yes, I am conflicted, and I don't know the answer. But I will figure it out, and I need to sit with it.

• 50:18Speaker 01

  So that's step one. The next thing is, well, there's a lot of tools you have access to, you can look things up on the internet

• 50:29Speaker 01

  to try and get more informed on a certain topic. You can also just look around and talk to people, you know. With the military thing, I, I sat and talked to my dad, I've had other people, or still have other people who are in the military, who I spoke with, I've worked in government, I spoke to people in government to get their opinion.

• 50:51Speaker 01

  And then I realized, like, it is important that you have a strong defensive posture. Otherwise, you're opening up yourself to attack, right? And then I started to think at an individual level, so I always try to bring it down to my individual sense, right? And oftentimes, we are terrible at thinking about ourselves, but we're great at thinking about our loved ones. Right? So we might not want to do stuff for ourselves, but we will definitely do the best things for sister, children, parents, whatever, right? Or at least I hope that that's how it is.

• 51:32Speaker 01

  And when we start doing that, then

• 51:35Speaker 01

  you can break it down at an individual level and think, okay, if this were to happen, then would I or would I not be responsible? And if I am considering that I can change this, or I can do something about it, then what should I do?

• 51:49Speaker 00

  I agree, I agree one hundred percent, and I think that's one of the, like you said, the hardest things, but one of the most rewarding. When you can learn to listen to yourself, and then make good decisions that appear in the real world. So I appreciate you taking the time and, and walking us through that. And before you go, because I, I know you're, you're starting this new approach to your new venture. I wanna give you an opportunity to let the listeners know again about what it is that you do and how they can get in touch.

• 52:17Speaker 01

  Sure, so I have my business, you can look for Sapient Ventures. So it's sapient ventures, so it's an interesting domain, so everyone will remember. And you can get in touch with me if you want to focus on growing a business that is B two B. My current focus in terms of markets is Europe, Middle East, and Asia. Because these are all markets and regions that I've worked in over the years. And it can be a business which might be in a place where, you know, it's oil and gas, or it's defense tech. Or it's something that's, you know, green energy and sustainability.

• 53:00Speaker 01

  And I'd be happy to work with you, because all of this is relevant right now, right? So once again, the focus is upgrading humanity through pragmatic idealism, and focusing on that transition. And not just blatant idealism that, you know, gets us left behind or gets us into trouble.

• 53:24Speaker 00

  Right, oh, that's good, I love it. So Varun, I really appreciate you coming back on the show today, so we'll make sure to link to Sapient Ventures and the previous episode as well, so for people who wanna learn more. Really appreciate the work that you do and excited to see where this goes, because I know it's a big transition for you. But I, I think of all the folks that we've talked to, you're the person who is perfectly situated to, to pull it off. So I appreciate you, brother, thanks for coming back on the show.

• 53:51Speaker 01

  Thanks for inviting me, always good to see you, guys.