Pod Insights My Therapist Ghosted Me MTGM EXTRA! "Is this cheating?" About this episode Sometimes, Joanne finds it difficult to reserve judgement until she's heard all of the email from a listener. This week is one of those times... In fairness, it is a tricky one.
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Transcript 0:00 Speaker 00 Observe. The North American Dad. 50s. Great polo collection. He enters his vehicle information on Carvana. An offer appears in minutes. Remarkable. He squints, reads it again, smiles and says, dang, that's a good offer. The highest form of approval. No haggling, no hassle. No one called him boss. He's still on the couch. Astonishing. Sell your car today on carvana.com. Pickup fees may apply.
0:32 Speaker 01 This is a Global Player original podcast.
0:40 Speaker 02 Hello and welcome to the bonus episode of My Therapist Ghosted Me with me, Vogue Williams, Joanne McCallie and Jo Attywell.
0:50 Speaker 02 Do you ever get Uber, okay, and like you'll go in for an Uber and you'll try and get it and then they'll cancel on you and then all of a sudden there's a massive surge price? In China,
1:00 Speaker 02 Uber drivers have figured out a loophole that pays them to do nothing. So you know, if you cancel on an Uber, you're charged a cancellation fee if you cancel, if you've ordered it and like it's on the way and stuff, which is fair enough. So some Uber drivers are selling really like scary profile pictures that look like ghosts and like just really evil people and it's making people cancel the Uber.
1:24 Speaker 03 Shut up. Are you serious?
1:27 Speaker 02 When they see what the driver looks like, they're like, I've canceled that. I don't want him driving me anywhere. But they put up all these really creepy pictures and I thought, you know what? That's clever.
1:36 Speaker 03 That is, like, Vogue, that's like something you would do. That's smart. I like it.
1:43 Speaker 03 That's a really smart business, business plan. I would get into it. Do you know the amount of times I've stepped into cars and only that they say, who are you? I would just sit there and be sped up.
1:55 Speaker 02 Well, do you know what? That says a lot about us because I do the same and no one, no one has even tried to keep us in the car.
2:02 Speaker 03 They don't abduct women our age, Vogue. It's negative. It's actually insulting, to be honest. They don't want...
2:08 Speaker 02 Excuse me.
2:09 Speaker 04 Please be safe. Make good choices.
2:10 Speaker 03 Allegedly, blah, blah, blah.
2:11 Speaker 02 Excuse me.
2:12 Speaker 03 Imagine you got stolen.
2:14 Speaker 02 I would like to remind you, by the way, when I was on my way into, into actually Leicester Square, one morning at half four in the morning, when I was, I used to do a radio show. Disgusting.
2:25 Speaker 03 I couldn't think of anything worse. I would rather gargle silage.
2:30 Speaker 02 No, you'd rather gargle slurry.
2:32 Speaker 03 Slurry, thank you.
2:33 Speaker 02 I, but I was on the way in and this man, it's not funny, but like this man stopped the car and he's like, get in the fucking car, get in the fucking car. And I was like, no. Like, did he think I was just gonna say, oh yeah, hang on a second, just unlock the back, will you? Like.
2:48 Speaker 03 Sorry, Val, this, this is very reminiscent of the time that I tried to tell the story about my stalker and then realised there was no point in it. It was actually really grim.
2:55 Speaker 02 Well, I'm just actually.
2:57 Speaker 03 And we had to cut it from the podcast. This is very similar, very similar territory.
3:01 Speaker 02 I'm just letting you know that I, I'm in demand. I am in demand. Okay?
3:07 Speaker 03 We on the e-scooter, were you?
3:10 Speaker 02 I don't have an e-scooter, actually, Joanne. I have a push scooter. Okay?
3:16 Speaker 02 Do you know what? I can't wait for this summer. I can't wait for the next, like, Be the Boss and stuff like that. Like, all those million people that are gonna come out. Yeah.
3:24 Speaker 03 I hope, I hope I am one, to be honest.
3:27 Speaker 02 Well, you'd have to go to, you might be. I'll tell you what, if you book your flight to Spain, which you haven't done.
3:32 Speaker 03 I could be, I could be a clapping final boss. I don't have to go to Spain. I just have to get a bowler.
3:37 Speaker 02 No, you said you're coming to Spain with me and my family. And now I know that you are pulling out. And Gina and Amber are there. That's my carrot.
3:44 Speaker 03 Obviously I am, because I have no husband and no children. Thanks, folk, for reminding me.
3:47 Speaker 02 That is my carrot on a stick. Gina and Amber are going to be there, Joanne. Okay?
3:52 Speaker 03 Can't wait.
3:53 Speaker 02 Don't forget who's coming.
3:55 Speaker 03 Oh, I'll be, I'll be floating around your paddling pill. Don't worry. I'll be there.
3:59 Speaker 02 Your bloody best of me. Okay, do you want a couple of listener emails?
4:04 Speaker 03 Always.
4:04 Speaker 02 Here we go. Is this cheating or please tell me this is normal?
4:09 Speaker 03 Oh, well, I can tell, sorry, I'm gonna, I'm gonna stick my head in the line here and say it's cheating.
4:16 Speaker 02 I am gonna say, I don't know.
4:19 Speaker 03 I know, I know right away, it is.
4:22 Speaker 02 Joanne, you're very, no, you're very negative in this, okay?
4:25 Speaker 03 I might not be. I'm not in a good place mentally. Alright, go on Vogue.
4:29 Speaker 02 Okay. Could be the nicest story in the whole world.
4:32 Speaker 03 Sure, sure.
4:34 Speaker 02 Okay.
4:35 Speaker 03 Women need to trust their own instincts. This is what I'm saying. If you feel like it's cheating, it's cheating.
4:41 Speaker 02 I, yeah, I do think that you should always trust your gut because when you have that feeling, you're usually right.
4:47 Speaker 03 We need to just work towards the orgasm woman's commune that we have spoken about building several times. Joanne will miss us, but he'll get over it pretty quickly.
4:58 Speaker 02 I, I, listen, I agreed on the, the housing estate with all of our friends. I'm not doing orgasm. I do that privately. And I would not like to share that with anyone.
5:09 Speaker 03 But actually, you weren't invited to the orgasm breakfast, so anyway.
5:13 Speaker 02 Well, I do not, because I won't, I won't have time to go because I'll be doing it on my own in my house and I'll be too busy doing it.
5:19 Speaker 03 Actually, the man we booked to paw the women off in the morning said your gait was too wide and he said.
5:24 Speaker 02 Did he?
5:25 Speaker 03 Yeah, he said he'd be there all day and he was like, I can't afford the resources.
5:29 Speaker 02 Well, the man that you have booked, I have heard really bad reviews on and I heard that he has long fingernails. And so I booked a different man because I didn't want the man with the long fingernails.
5:40 Speaker 03 Okay, you're going back in your own arguments? Carry on.
5:43 Speaker 02 So, yeah, you enjoy the scratchy, scratchy. Hello, Joanne, Vogue and Jo.
5:48 Speaker 03 You can enjoy never experiencing pleasure again.
5:51 Speaker 02 Well, you can enjoy also feeling attacked while you're meant to be experiencing pleasure because somebody wouldn't file us nails.
5:57 Speaker 03 Sorry, no, I will happily be played like a guitar.
6:01 Speaker 02 Okay, well, if you like a guitar pick, with the, okay.
6:06 Speaker 03 Vogue, don't time for this. Please, carry on.
6:08 Speaker 02 You enjoy yourself, okay?
6:09 Speaker 03 I have to go to Australia in half an hour.
6:11 Speaker 02 I'd really love your take on something and I'd appreciate staying anonymous. A bit of context first.
6:16 Speaker 03 Okay.
6:17 Speaker 02 My partner and I have been together five years and are engaged. We're deeply in love and I've always felt our relationship was built on a level of trust I've never had before. Or so I thought.
6:28 Speaker 03 Okay, I'm, I'm, okay, I'm listening, I'm listening.
6:31 Speaker 02 Okay.
6:32 Speaker 03 But when trust is being described as something in the past, I'm not thrilled.
6:36 Speaker 02 He went on a stag this weekend and when he got back, I could tell straight away something wasn't right. He had that guilty look and said he needed to tell me something. Oh no, my sto-, oh no, my, my stomach has dropped for you. My stomach dropped, I hadn't worried once while he was away, but in that moment, my mind just spiraled and I was bracing for the worst. He told me he'd been dancing, dancing sexily with a girl while very drunk and felt bad about it. At first I tried to be rational, I thought people are human, sometimes you find others attractive. And at least he told me straight away.
7:08 Speaker 03 Vogue, I've actually taken my fluffy pen out, I'm actually taking notes. Okay.
7:12 Speaker 02 I mean, even I feel sexy dancing, is sexy dancing another word?
7:18 Speaker 03 Sorry, I'm, I'm just gonna, sorry, Joe, I'm just gonna say it now. What man, what man goes home and tells their partner that they feel guilty about sexy dancing?
7:29 Speaker 04 Well, off the bat, my instinct says an honest one, because the ones who cheat don't say anything, generally.
7:36 Speaker 03 No, or.
7:37 Speaker 02 He didn't, he didn't have to say anything, that is true.
7:39 Speaker 03 So, no, so, or what he's doing is covering his back by going, someone might have seen me sexy dancing with this woman before I, like, carried it on and I want to have my back covered.
7:49 Speaker 04 Let's hear the rest.
7:49 Speaker 02 Okay, I'll let me finish.
7:51 Speaker 03 My partner's schizophrenic, okay.
7:53 Speaker 02 But later that night, my brain went into overdrive, I couldn't stop picturing it, I started asking more questions. It turns out they were grinding, he was aroused and his hand was on her bum.
8:02 Speaker 03 Sorry, sorry, sorry, no, no, no, sorry, I, I literally, I literally blinked and you've got, what, is that a dream that she had or that happened?
8:09 Speaker 02 No, she's asked him and this is what he told her. So that's when it really hit me and I said I wasn't okay with it. I shot up in bed and I was like, tell me everything that happened. Apparently, they met two girls who went bar crawling with them. He ended up talking with one of them all night. He had told her he was engaged. She was a mom and a night away from the kid. And they ended up dancing together and grinding. And eventually she tried to kiss him, but he turned away and left straight away, realising it had gone too far.
8:34 Speaker 03 Because that's where a man draws the line, just when it's about to, just when they're about to actually like get some penetrative action. They're like, no, no, no, this has gone too far.
8:43 Speaker 02 He went back to his Airbnb alone, but admitted he later masturbated, thinking about her.
8:48 Speaker 03 What the fuck? Why is he telling her this?
8:52 Speaker 02 I don't know. Why? Are you doing this to her? This is for his benefit and not her. If you really didn't cheat on her and you're telling her this stupid bollocks, that's gonna, like, I-
9:07 Speaker 03 Why, why is he telling her this?
9:11 Speaker 03 That's so mean. Why is he telling her this?
9:14 Speaker 02 Sorry, we're in 2026. Who masturbates to Thots? What?
9:22 Speaker 02 Sorry.
9:24 Speaker 03 Sorry, Vogue, not everyone can afford the wardrobe of sex dolls that you have, okay? There's a cost of living crisis.
9:30 Speaker 02 This guy's a fucking oddball.
9:31 Speaker 03 Some people are just wanking off to Thots.
9:35 Speaker 02 Oh, my God. Okay.
9:37 Speaker 03 Not everyone can afford to have a top tier gold subscription
9:42 Speaker 03 to wherever you're hooked up to in your St Bart's Vior room.
9:48 Speaker 03 Some of us are just out here with an electric toothbrush and a bit of spirit.
9:52 Speaker 02 Oh, yes, Joanne, you literally have a fucking caseload of dildos. Like, you go in there and do, do, do, which one for today? Like, you don't even have to wash them. You use one and then it's gone. It's big because you still need to get through.
10:04 Speaker 03 Sorry, Vogue, how are you? I don't because I've lost them.
10:09 Speaker 03 I've left them in various houses.
10:10 Speaker 02 For you.
10:11 Speaker 04 Two lockerfuls now, there are two lockerfuls.
10:15 Speaker 03 I'm not comfortable taking dildos off you, Jo.
10:17 Speaker 02 Not me. Okay, now I feel-
10:20 Speaker 03 I'm worried you're dying them or something. Jo, Vogue, go on.
10:31 Speaker 02 Now I feel completely stuck in my head. Part of me believes this is the whole story because I don't think you could handle the guilt of anything else happening. But part of me thinks I'll never really know the full details and my imagination is too good at making them up. I feel hurt and angry and I can't stop repaying it all. He says he feels deeply sad at how hurt I am, but that I'm overreacting. Well, you fucking anyway, and that it's not as bad as I'm imagining, but it really doesn't feel small to me. This is like, this is inside thoughts that he has brought outside. Like you don't bring the inside. It's like, you know, if you see someone hot on the beach or something like I did yesterday, I didn't look at the hot guy and be like, Jesus, man, look at him. He's hot, isn't he? I just, it's an internal thought. I just thought he's hot and I moved on.
11:15 Speaker 02 I'm like, I'm sure Spenny thinks, because I've seen really hot girls on the beach too. And I'm sure he thinks to himself, they're hot and moves on. He doesn't come and tell me, fuck Jesus Christ, I just thought in my own head that they're hot, like, God.
11:29 Speaker 03 I, if I, sorry, Jo, we're gonna bring you in for this if you don't mind, because you are.
11:33 Speaker 02 Let me just, let me just finish, okay? I keep trying to reframe it in my head and something a bit pathetic where he was super messy drunk rather than sexy and then had a sad wank by himself. Yes, that's what he did, a sad little wank. And I'd say it wasn't even like a full hard one either. I'd say it was really that sad.
11:51 Speaker 03 Sorry, so she's saying she's imagining that he had a sad wank, even though.
11:56 Speaker 02 She's imagining that he was just deranged and like, it wasn't like this big, like sexy kind of fucking like crazy, crazy stupid love vibe. Yeah, it's just, I mean, I don't feel like, I think if, if something happened, he would have told you the full thing because I think that this is a man who feels the need to tell you absolutely everything and you did not need to hear about the sad little wank that was a sad little wank.
12:21 Speaker 03 He's deranged for telling her. I do not know why he did that to her. Like, we are like programmed to be very territorial. Women are very territorial. We are sexually very territorial. It was like, it goes back to hunter gatherer stuff. Like if, if someone's not hunting.
12:40 Speaker 03 We'll die, okay, so we protect our resources. Why on earth this person, this man told her, I wanked over some girl that I dry rode in a club? Like, it's nonsense. But now, because he's claiming he did nothing, like crossed a line, whatever, in whatever version that presents itself, she's like, I just have to kind of suck it up. We don't want to know that you're thinking about riding other women. Like, sorry, we don't. Like, I can only speak for myself. I don't want to know. Why are you telling me? Now I fucking hate you.
13:08 Speaker 02 No, of course you don't want to know. That's just such a, oh, hi, I went home and wanked over this person, like.
13:13 Speaker 03 But it's not enough, you can't, it's not enough to like, tear apart the fabric of a relationship. Like, because it's kind of juvenile, it's just whatever, like, we all do it. But like, why tell me you're doing this?
13:24 Speaker 02 This is the problem with men not talking to each other, because if he had suggested to his friends he was going to go home and tell his, his fiancee that he had wanked over the girl on the pub crawl, they would have said, you know what, pal? I don't think you should do that. I think that you should keep that to yourself.
13:42 Speaker 03 To be honest, a man expressing this much feeling is kind of, Joe, like, sorry, Joe, I know I keep dragging you into it, but you are a man, allegedly, and we sometimes do need the male opinion.
13:55 Speaker 04 The reason I think he's telling the truth is because there's an element of selfishness to being that honest. It's absolving his own guilt.
14:03 Speaker 03 Yeah.
14:04 Speaker 04 By saying everything. He goes, well, I don't need to feel guilty anymore because I said everything. And that's why I think it's probably true that nothing else happened. It's a little bit selfish, but I think it's.
14:15 Speaker 03 Well, Esther Perel, who I live and die by, says, she's like, when you tell someone that you cheated on them, it's basically like asking them to take a bullet for you.
14:26 Speaker 02 Yeah, well, it brings me back to that story. Remember that time I got cheated on and a girl mailed me like a year after it, like we'd broken up? And was like, oh, by the way, and relayed the whole story for me, but was going through like this 10 step alcohol and AA kind of program. And one of her steps was like to stop feeling guilty about certain things that she did. And I'm like, I nearly went back and then I was like, you know what? No, you're doing this for yourself. You're not doing this for me. You're telling me this to make yourself feel better. So how about fuck you? And I'm gonna ignore that.
14:58 Speaker 03 Sorry. Also, I will flag, you've no personal relationship with that woman, like in what, where and where and what and who and how does that, like, it's kind of, I know the kind of recovery program stuff is a lot about like, kind of clean your path and keep the side of your street clean. You don't know her. What she's done is actually dropped a bomb into your life. And I think that's actually quite selfish. And Esther Perel says herself, it's like taking a bullet for the other person, because now you have information that you have to sit with.
15:27 Speaker 02 Yeah.
15:28 Speaker 03 And you want to stay with them, but now you're, it's, you've done, they've done damage. And this man has done weird, he's just done weird damage. I'd love to be the type of woman who's like, oh, I don't care that you were grinding up against some young one in the club and wanked over when you got home, but I'm not. So don't tell me about it. I don't want to know.
15:45 Speaker 02 Also, you're not herself for doing that, because you probably shouldn't have done that anyway. Grinding over someone in the club, but you're also then a bigger herself for coming home and just now your fiance just feels like shit. So do we think it's cheating or not? No, we don't think it's cheating.
15:58 Speaker 03 I don't know. Like, to be honest, I like, but also, Jo, like, what man comes home and gives crumbs like that? Like, why on earth would you do that?
16:09 Speaker 02 Yeah, Jo.
16:10 Speaker 03 What is he a priest? Like, would he feel that guilty about grinding up against a woman that he has to come home and admit that stuff to his fiance? It doesn't make any sense. Like, what is that? It's like self harm. Like, why is he doing that?
16:22 Speaker 02 Hmm.
16:24 Speaker 03 No, I'm asking you, it's not rhetorical, Jo. I'm asking you why he's doing it.
16:26 Speaker 04 Not wanting to live with the guilt is what it is. It's a person who feels genuinely guilty and will feel better about you being okay with it.
16:33 Speaker 03 The guilt of having a wank over a stranger? Jesus Christ, Jo, if that was the case.
16:38 Speaker 04 It's an unfortunate detail.
16:39 Speaker 03 We'd all be in the guillotine.
16:43 Speaker 03 Why is he telling her?
16:46 Speaker 02 Think about the weird sex dreams you have as well and you're like, oh my God, that came in an hour. Imagine waking up and being like, here, here, just so you know, I had a sex dream about this person. Like, will we talk about it? No, let's not talk about it.
16:56 Speaker 03 Exactly.
16:57 Speaker 02 How about no?
16:58 Speaker 03 I'm not waking up and telling my partner that doesn't exist, that I rode Kevin Bacon for nine hours the night before. Like, just let it go. Why are you telling anyone?
17:07 Speaker 02 Kevin Bacon's married to his cousin.
17:09 Speaker 03 I don't know if I...
17:12 Speaker 02 He is. I read it. He is. Google it, Jo.
17:15 Speaker 04 It seems...
17:15 Speaker 02 He's married. He's married to his cousin. He is married to his cousin.
17:20 Speaker 03 I mean, you can be removed from a cousin.
17:23 Speaker 02 He is. You should be removed from your cousin. You shouldn't be putting things in your cousin if it's your cousin.
17:29 Speaker 03 You can be removed.
17:30 Speaker 04 He is married to a distant relative.
17:32 Speaker 03 Yeah, distant, folk, distant.
17:33 Speaker 02 Doesn't matter to you on any relative, like, just come on.
17:37 Speaker 04 Ninth cousin once removed, so.
17:38 Speaker 03 Folk, you're, you're royal adjacent now. I, I despair at what you're just going to be set up with, to be honest.
17:46 Speaker 03 The chin will be six foot three.
17:55 Speaker 02 Well, I hope you enjoyed listening to that. We have tried to stay on, on script. And just a little reminder, we are now on YouTube. We're even doing the bonuses on YouTube, much to your answer this May, but here we are. Thanks for listening.
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19:06 Speaker 01 This has been a Global Player original production.
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