How To Turn Your Pain Into Greatness - Bugzy Malone - #1174

Bugzy Malone is a British rapper, actor, and entrepreneur from Manchester, England. Expect to learn what the difference between “making it and maintaining it” is, the childhood experiences that shaped Bugzy, and why it’s important to be ultra vulnerable, if you can ever have mastery without tapping into your darkness, how to handle uncertainty, why you must be ruthlessly accountable to yourself, and much more… Sponsors: Get a Free Sample Pack of LMNT’s most popular flavours with your first purchase at https://drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom Get 35% off your first subscription to the best supplements from Momentous at https://livemomentous.com/modernwisdom Get 160+ lab tests for just $365 and save an extra $25 at https://functionhealth.com/modernwisdom Get 10% discount on all Gymshark products at https://gym.sh/modernwisdom (use code MODERNWISDOM10) See discounts for all the products I use and recommend: ⁠https://chriswillx.com/deals⁠ Get ChatGPT to explore ideas, solve problems, and learn faster at ⁠https://chatgpt.com Extra Stuff: Get my free reading list of 100 books to read before you die: ⁠https://chriswillx.com/books⁠ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic: ⁠https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom⁠ Episodes You Might Enjoy: #577 - David Goggins - This Is How To Master Your Life: ⁠lnkfi.re/SN-Goggins⁠ #712 - Dr Jordan Peterson - How To Destroy Your Negative Beliefs: ⁠lnkfi.re/SN-Peterson⁠ #700 - Dr Andrew Huberman - The Secret Tools To Hack Your Brain: ⁠lnkfi.re/SN-Huberman⁠ - Get In Touch: Instagram: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx⁠ Twitter: ⁠https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx⁠ YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/modernwisdompodcast⁠ Email: ⁠https://chriswillx.com/contact⁠ - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Brand new Modern Wisdom Merch Goes Live this Friday. Look at this beautiful doing the thing angel. We've got our first ever death metal design, sleeveless t-shirt and a hoodie. This awesome high country ranch thing that we've got. This snake design, which I love. Wisdom Nation World Tour, Wisdom Coffee and much more. Sign up at MWMerch.com now to be the first person to get access. What's the difference between making it and maintaining it?

• 0:27Speaker 01

  I think the difference is we're advertised to, right? A lot as, as kids. So coming up to me, I, I seen a lot of nice clothes, Lamborghinis, lifestyles that appeared to sort of be people who have made it in life. So we're sort of programmed into trying to get there. I think when you get there, um, there's a whole maintenance situation that nobody's talking about. And you're not prepared for.

• 1:08Speaker 01

  And I think that's why so many people sort of shoe up and plateau and fall off. Because it's not advertised that. It's tough all the way through. You've got to be the best version of yourself all the way through. It's not just make it, kick your feet up and, and relax.

• 1:31Speaker 00

  I think the total addressable market for people who want advice on how to make it versus the people who want advice on how to maintain it is basically a 10,000 to one, 100,000 to one. Right? Almost everybody is not yet where they want to be financially in terms of status, in terms of recognition or admiration or respect by people that they respect. And because of that, it means that if you're looking at the world of advice, most people are still on the climb as opposed to trying to maintain the altitude that they've got to. And that means, yeah, that almost all of the pieces of goodwill and sage archetype mythology is about you getting to the top, not about what happens when you get there.

• 2:14Speaker 00

  I'm kind of fascinated about the difference between someone who never makes it and someone who's fallen off and the pain and the, uh, the way that that's interpreted. Huh, that person never actually made it to the top as opposed to the boxer or the rapper or the movie star that did had it all in their hands and then let it go. No wonder which one's more painful.

• 2:38Speaker 01

  It's such an interesting concept, man, because you, when we last spoke, you was like, where's your head at? How have you been? And that's something that I'm sort of addressing at the minute. And, um,

• 2:56Speaker 01

  where is the top? Right? And I think what a lot of people do is maybe in the Bible, it says, "A lover of silver will never be content with silver." Something along them lines. And what I've recently figured out is that like, I'm content. I've really got everything I ever wanted and more. And I think if you're not careful, what sort of happens is you're tricked into thinking that you need more. And I think they're the people that get into trouble. You know, they're trying to impress other people. They want validation. They want people to, to pat them on the back.

• 3:41Speaker 01

  And I think when you get into a place where you don't need nobody to pat you on the back, don't need nobody's validation, you actually strip it back to who am I? What are my experiences of this planet? And, and sort of recently I've understood that like, I come from really humble beginnings, man. You know, I've had to sort of, it's been an interesting process making this album because I sort of told myself if, if I can't be more vulnerable and more honest than I've been before, I make something that's of a higher quality than what I've made before, I'm not going to do it. And I was serious about it.

• 4:24Speaker 01

  So, um, I had to go through a process of like stripping it back. And when I spent some sort of time in my mind at the beginning of my life, it dawned on me that like, I've got everything I ever wanted and some, you know, which sort of starts a different direction, you know? And why, what I see is people that have got like a number in their head and material things that they told themselves they would get. And now because they've identified with being somebody that doesn't quit, they have to get there.

• 5:04Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 5:05Speaker 01

  Understand? And, um,

• 5:10Speaker 01

  I don't think any of that's real. I think it's a, an insecurity that you must overcome.

• 5:15Speaker 00

  I had a Navy SEAL on the podcast, a guy called Andy Stumpf. And he's now a big podcaster. I think he's done 10,000 skydives in his career, unbelievably accomplished. I think he holds some world records for maybe base jumping or, or wingsuit gliding or something like that. So like a very extreme human, but does it all with a lot of humor. So you got like a, he's one of those people who very lethal, very trained, but does it with a smile on their face, which makes them feel to me more disturbing. The fact that you do it with that sense of sort of gallows humor to me is like, holy shit. Like you're really scary. Anyway, he was telling me this story. He'd created his entire life identity around being a person that doesn't quit.

• 6:00Speaker 00

  Right? This is who I am. I'm a Navy SEAL. I do not quit. I do not give up. I do not leave my guys behind. I push through selection, training, firefights, anything, everything. I don't quit. That's what I've built my identity around. But the don't quit muscle had also caused him to stay in a very toxic marriage for 15 years. Well, I'm the guy that doesn't quit. He's like, well, sometimes that skill of not quitting, of not giving up, of continuing to push through, of denying your emotions, how you feel, pushing that to one side, can actually be something that is not a performance enhancer, but it's a constraint. And I came up with this line when he was talking to me, which is,

• 6:45Speaker 00

  "What you are praised for in public, you often pay for in private." What are the prices of the things that you have built? You've constructed this very unique version of yourself. Navy SEAL, rapper, person who's overcoming challenges of childhood. Okay. But what's the cost of doing that as well?

• 7:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:08Speaker 00

  And nobody wants to talk about that.

• 7:11Speaker 01

  The cost.

• 7:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, so again, recently I've, I've understood that like, it's sort of cost me anyway. Everything. Because

• 7:29Speaker 01

  we don't understand when you're looking up at essentially a new world. You know, if you're coming from real poverty, real dysfunction, and where you propose to get to is a functional place and a, an affluent place.

• 7:47Speaker 01

  Something's got to give. And there's parts of yourself that have, have to die. And there's a whole life that you identified with that's got to die. And death, death is always violent, right? It's never gentle. So when you talk about sort of paying the cost, I relate.

• 8:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And I think now that I've quote unquote made it, um, the dust starts to settle with where you're actually up to. And I recently had a family member pass away. And it's, it's a heavy one because.

• 8:34Speaker 01

  He would drink a lot.

• 8:37Speaker 01

  And there was some drugs involved.

• 8:40Speaker 01

  And when I, when I was young, I would, I would look up to him. He would, he would be the guy that like, I was trying to be like him. Um. And then life got on top of him.

• 8:52Speaker 01

  We had a fallout. And you sort of see where it's going and you sort of grieving. That relationship.

• 9:00Speaker 00

  In advance?

• 9:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:01Speaker 00

  Oh, that's so interesting.

• 9:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, because, you know.

• 9:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 9:05Speaker 01

  Alcoholism.

• 9:08Speaker 01

  Any of these vices, there, there are train crash waiting to happen.

• 9:11Speaker 00

  They're a slow burn, they're right?

• 9:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 9:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think, uh, relationships are somewhat similar, sort of.

• 9:20Speaker 00

  You have this sense that it's over between you and a, a partner, that it's not going to work. The sort of, the writing is on the wall, but you're still on the train car, so to speak.

• 9:30Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 9:30Speaker 00

  And you can slowly see this thing coming toward you and it's this odd kind of.

• 9:36Speaker 00

  Perspective grief. You know, you're thinking about the future grief that you're going to feel in the moment. It's like you're taking regret from the future and bringing it down into the present.

• 9:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:48Speaker 00

  Anticipating that it's about to arrive.

• 9:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:51Speaker 00

  And, um, I've had. People in my life that have taken their own lives and one of my longest friends did only a couple of months ago in Dubai. Yeah, uh, I mean. He was always an extreme individual, but, uh, he decided that the way that he was going to end it was to throw himself off the. Sixtieth floor of a building. That, that wasn't a surprise to people. It wasn't a surprise as much as everyone loved him and. He had like the, one of the biggest funerals that you can think of.

• 10:28Speaker 00

  I don't think that that many people were surprised saddened distraught, like destroyed by this wonderful guy not being here anymore, but. He kind of saw it coming as well. And I go, fuck, what does that mean? And then there's the guilt of like, well, if you could see it coming, how couldn't you step in to fix something?

• 10:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 10:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think there's only so much you can do. Uh, and I think that's the top and bottom of it is, is.

• 10:58Speaker 01

  In the end, you've got to be responsible for yourself, you know? This position that I found myself in comes with a lot of, um, people asking for advice. People relating, people being inspired by, almost feels like my, my purpose to, to acquire this spot. However, I've got to be the best version of myself. There's only so much externally I can do. So to me, it feels like the, the journey is always an internal, you know? And it's sad and it hurts. However, that's, these are the realities of life. You know, and it's not until you sort of take that on board that you sort of take your own. Life.

• 11:42Speaker 01

  More seriously, you know, and that's the conclusion I came to. Can, can you? Stop an alcoholic from drinking?

• 11:52Speaker 01

  I'm just a man. Can you, can you stop somebody that's suicidal from jumping? I'm not God, you know? All I can do is be the best version of myself and hope that that rubs off in a positive way.

• 12:07Speaker 00

  Can we talk about your childhood?

• 12:08Speaker 01

  If you like.

• 12:11Speaker 00

  For the people that don't know what.

• 12:15Speaker 00

  Growing up for you was like.

• 12:19Speaker 00

  What was that like? What were the formative experiences that sort of made you into who you became?

• 12:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, just complex, really. I think the, the more I sort of look back and understand it from an adult perspective. There was just a lot of complexities going on in there that like, um.

• 12:36Speaker 01

  Create confusion and as people were confused anyway, right? You go from being a, a boy to a teenager, that's confusing. And from a teenager to a man, that's confusing. You start adding in some dysfunctional characters, some crime. Some deaths, some murders and.

• 12:58Speaker 01

  What I've recently sort of understood is.

• 13:03Speaker 01

  You sort of lose, you lose confidence in, in your place in society because you don't feel like you fit in.

• 13:11Speaker 01

  You know, you sort of know things and you sort of seeing things. That go against the norms, that go against what people. Think is reality, you know?

• 13:24Speaker 00

  What like?

• 13:27Speaker 01

  I mean, if we, if we go sort of go to my.

• 13:31Speaker 01

  Early days of.

• 13:35Speaker 01

  Being interested.

• 13:38Speaker 01

  In being a villain for a living. Cause that was sort of the example that I'd, I'd seen. You know, the coolest individual I'd ever seen was a very well-paid criminal.

• 13:52Speaker 01

  And, um, you, you come from tough beginnings.

• 13:57Speaker 01

  And, and you're looking for a job description, right? So in sort of trying to get my education in that world and that area, you stumble across some colorful characters, man. And you meet a man that's murdered people and not been convicted. And he's at large. And he's just in the community.

• 14:18Speaker 01

  Prior to him meeting his, um.

• 14:22Speaker 01

  His own sort of violent demise. You, you, you start to see that like. What people think it is, it's not.

• 14:32Speaker 01

  There, there is a world outside of the parameters of what people are calling normal. And he's really there and he really exists. I always saw, used to.

• 14:44Speaker 01

  As a kid, I'd, I'd watch Harry Potter, right? And then. And that's got an interesting sort of similarity in that, like, you've got what they call the muggles. The humans, the, the normal people, and then there's the wizarding world, but they're separate. You've got to go on platform nine and what is it, three quarters and run through the wall at the right angle. To sort of be immersed into the wizarding world and that's what the underbelly is like. It's just a whole different ballgame. With a different set of rules.

• 15:16Speaker 00

  When did you first get exposed to that?

• 15:18Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying. That's why it's complex because I think, uh, my, um. Mum sort of seen it coming and was trying to shield me from it. We saw it meant I was under. Prepared, if you like. You know?

• 15:35Speaker 01

  And then it's just happening. It's just turning up. That's like Harry Potter when the letters are coming through the door and he's like, what are them letters? And they're hiding them from him because they know like there's a, there's a world that you're. Sort of inheriting. That we're trying to shield you from. It's just turning up and it was like that for me, you know? And, um, so you go from sort of very. Normal. To. You know, a, a man has been murdered in your uncle's house where you'll go and stay at a weekend. But you're a kid, so no one's having that conversation with you. You're just sort of getting exposed to it. Naturally.

• 16:21Speaker 01

  That's confusing. Cause then you'll go to your friend's house to play football in his living room with a little soft football. And you start seeing that like your world's completely different to mine. The way you talk about your family is completely different to the way I'm hearing my family spoke about. And in fact, when your mum gets home, she gives you that look. As if to say, why, why have you got him here?

• 16:47Speaker 01

  So you start, you, you're not fitting in nowhere. Right? And, and there's two ways of looking at that. You can look at that with, with the cup half empty or half full. And the more I.

• 17:04Speaker 01

  Delve into my faith, the more I sort of understand that like special people on the planet get challenged early doors. It's all a challenge to sort of anchor you in, in faith and strength, determination.

• 17:20Speaker 01

  So there's been many a time that I've sort of felt like a victim, like.

• 17:26Speaker 01

  Why was I exposed to these things? And then eventually sort of come to terms with the fact that it was given to me because I can handle it.

• 17:36Speaker 01

  You know?

• 17:39Speaker 00

  It's an interesting.

• 17:43Speaker 00

  Quirk of childhood that when you get exposed to things, nobody explains why they're happening. And you're right, it's just like osmosis. You're around this particular type of function or dysfunction, this type of love or this type of abandonment, this type of belonging or this type of isolation. And all of these things just sort of happen. And because you don't have perspective, because you're a kid, you just think, well, this is what life is.

• 18:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:15Speaker 00

  This is how a family works. So this is how a mum and a dad talk to each other.

• 18:19Speaker 01

  It's an interesting point, brother. You've really got to go and get your education on that as an individual in the world, you know? I see so many people that have sort of taken for granted where they started, right? And let's say their father is an alcoholic and he beats the mum. And that's their understanding of love. And they might be internally fighting that because they sort of know it's wrong. But then you get imposter syndrome because they feel like I'm sort of raised by a man that hits a woman and treats kids bad. And you've really just got to get into the world.

• 19:01Speaker 01

  And that's why in music, my sort of motto was be inspired, is be inspired. You've got to sort of look at greatness and high performing individuals, responsible individuals, accountable individuals, and just take bits, learn bits and understand what it is to be a man, I would say. But it's not just men, is it? Being a good human being.

• 19:32Speaker 01

  And then you've got to sort of detach. You've got to detach from the negative examples that you've been shown, that they don't define you.

• 19:43Speaker 00

  So fascinating when people start to do healing work or reflection or therapy or delve into their own origins, there's so many little pitfalls. It's kind of amazing that anybody ever makes it out of their own childhood challenges by reflecting on them without being completely destroyed. Because there's so many ways that you can go, that thing happened to me, therefore I'm a victim. That thing happened to me, therefore I should be bitter. That thing happened to me, therefore I should repeat it in my life. That thing happened to me, therefore I shouldn't be able to work as hard or I shouldn't be able to get as far. There's so many ways that deciding to finally face what happened when you were younger, whether it's big or small, whether it's traumatic with a capital T or with a small

• 20:28Speaker 00

  T, so many different ways that that could be interpreted in later life as a justification for you railing against the world or not being a good person or being a good person but wrapping your entire identity up about something that happened to you when you were 11 or 12 or 15. It's kind of amazing that anybody makes it through adult life healed without being taken away by what happened to them when they were a kid.

• 20:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's, I think it's the pattern of the universe, man. If we were to use an analogy of a boxing coach, I think what God sort of doing is putting you in the exact situation that is going to create resilience in you for the challenges you're going to have to go through in sort of parenthood or your career or seeking your purpose, basically. I think that's all it comes down to. I think each individual has a purpose of some description. And if we do use the analogy of a coach, when a boxing trainer puts you in a spar,

• 21:36Speaker 01

  and this has happened to me, puts you in a spar with a guy that can whoop your ass, you don't understand that until you get the benefits later down the line. He sort of put you in that situation because he knew it was just enough for you to handle, you know? And the adversity that you have to face on that day is going to be exactly what you need to sort of gain the skills to sort of take you to the next level. I had a situation with a guy, he happened to commit suicide, rest in peace. And, but he was a good boxer, man.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  He was a good boxer from where I'm from, a little villain he was, and a little bit older than me. And I'd sort of been in and around the boxing gym for a couple of years. My coach liked me because I'm a student type character. And he threw me in with this guy and I remember thinking he's a bit good for me, you know? And he was beating me up, pillar to post. And here's an interesting one about belief, because when I was getting beaten up, I just couldn't believe I could lace this guy's boots. And I remember after a couple of rounds, my coach said, remember the uppercut we've been working on? Jab and step back and then uppercut.

• 23:04Speaker 01

  And I was, I'm just doing as I'm told, right? So then I get back in, we get into it, I do the jab, I take that step back, I throw the uppercut and the guy bites his tongue in half, blood everywhere, spar called off, right? And in that moment, what I sort of took from boxing is that same belief that my coach had in me about my ability and what I was actually capable of. I had to learn to have in myself in order to actually attain success. Yeah, no, and that was probably the heaviest lesson that I learned in boxing because it was because of that coach, an elderly man called Brian Hughes, I'll say his name as

• 23:48Speaker 01

  much as I can, just because he had such a profound impact in my life. But the way he was able to see things in me, I couldn't see them in myself. And it took me many years to understand that like, oh, like belief, faith is a journey that you've got to walk by yourself.

• 24:11Speaker 00

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• 25:15Speaker 00

  Good duck, well played. There's an idea called Solomon's paradox. Solomon's paradox is that we are much better at giving advice to other people than we are at giving it to ourselves. And you have a friend that's going through a difficult relationship and you tell them precisely the sort of loving, caring, encouraging, reassuring, motivational thing that they need to hear and it's pithy and beautiful and memorable. And also the exact thing that you need to hear yourself. We're much better at giving advice to other people. But I wonder if there's an equivalent here with regards to self-belief for a lot of people that sometimes we are much better at believing in other people than we are believing in

• 25:57Speaker 00

  ourselves, that we can often see in our friends and the people around us and maybe even just the people that we respect and admire, a type of resilience and capacity and talent that they can't see in themselves. And maybe your goal in life should be to try and find as many friends as possible who believe in you more than you believe in you.

• 26:23Speaker 01

  I'm going to disagree. Yeah, I think it's harder, I think it's a harder path.

• 26:31Speaker 01

  I think the actual challenge of life is removing all crutches that you're leaning on.

• 26:38Speaker 00

  Entire self-reliance?

• 26:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. Get to that place and then you've got something to offer to friends as opposed to being reliant on friends' opinions of you. Because as human beings, we've all got a persona, right? So that means sometimes that people say they believe, but deep down when they go home and take the mask off, they're like, you can't really do that. And that, that will have an effect. That's there in the, in the vibration of that person.

• 27:10Speaker 00

  Do you think that part of that worldview comes from growing up in an environment where you couldn't rely on anybody? This level of extreme self-sufficiency?

• 27:22Speaker 01

  Interesting one because.

• 27:27Speaker 01

  I think

• 27:31Speaker 01

  the closer you can get

• 27:35Speaker 01

  to the, to the dark side of life,

• 27:41Speaker 01

  the more realism you're exposed to.

• 27:43Speaker 00

  That's a

• 27:45Speaker 01

  you, you see it for what it really is. You see human nature for what it really is. A lot of people are acting, man. You know the Scarface scene where he says, say goodnight to the bad guy. Never gonna see a bad guy like this again. And he start, he starts to sort of address the people in the room. And what he's saying is, is you've not got the guts to be who you wanna be. And the more I reflect on that sort of scene and the more I take acting serious and dialogue.

• 28:14Speaker 01

  What he's basically saying there is that like, all of you are savages, man. It's human nature, but you've learned to hide yourself. You've learned to fit into society. Where there was a time on the planet when like, all the laws and rules and regulations weren't in place. And that's when you've seen what, what man is really like. If you look at a lot of the wars where

• 28:42Speaker 01

  people are from one side of the world and they go to another side of the world, they attack everybody there. They steal everything from that land. You know, this is what human nature really sort of looks like. So I guess to answer your question, what I'm saying is

• 28:59Speaker 01

  sometimes violence, dysfunction, sort of chaos is, is

• 29:08Speaker 01

  a people being themselves.

• 29:11Speaker 01

  A people living the most honest version of their existence. You know, not everybody is a good person. Not everybody's learned restraint.

• 29:21Speaker 01

  So that doesn't mean that

• 29:25Speaker 01

  the darkness doesn't exist, you know? It's sort of a part of the, the polarity of life, the, the bigger picture of, of what's going on.

• 29:33Speaker 00

  Isn't it interesting that as a civilized society, a big part of the game is people being noble, calm, uh, socially aware humans.

• 29:51Speaker 01

  Sophisticated savages.

• 29:53Speaker 00

  Yeah. And keeping themselves, keeping their truth hidden. We would sooner somebody lie and be domesticated than be honest and dangerous. That's kind of how society's held together. Hey, you behave yourself. You might have to, this is, there is a type of decorum and behaviour that's mostly acceptable here. Uh, but yeah, maybe that's part of the reason that, um, mafia boss stories and, and true crime killers and, and, uh, heroes are both on the good side and the bad side. What's so alluring about them is that it appears to be someone who is being themselves, unashamedly being themselves for better and for worse.

• 30:31Speaker 01

  We're taught that as kids, right? If you're three years old and a, a kid gets on your nerves and you slap him in his face, you get told off by an adult. Don't do that. That's outside of the norm. That's outside of what's accepted. And you're quite quickly put into line. And what's interesting to go back to your question before about my sort of childhood or my job description now is that like, I've experienced lots of freedom, man.

• 31:03Speaker 01

  I've been outside of the curriculum system. At a point when everybody else was taking exams. I've been outside of

• 31:14Speaker 01

  work at the early phases of people getting the first job and doing the first couple of years. And it creates a freedom in your mind that is, can be drummed out of a person. When you're told about all these rules and regulations. Now, if, if with discipline, you learn sort of self restraint and you become a good person off your own back, you develop your own morals and principles. What you've got that other people don't have is a sort of a freedom of thought. They've been within the curriculum system and within fitting into society in order to get a job and, you know, if restrain themselves.

• 31:59Speaker 01

  I find that tough about the industry. You know, I, I, I really, I'm really sort of from a place where the, the liars are lying from their essence. These are some of the most talented liars on the planet. Some of the most charismatic and sort of fluid thieves on the planet. So when you turn up to me from a, a record label,

• 32:27Speaker 01

  you know, and you went to school and you behaved yourself. You might have done some drugs when you was younger or whatever, but you've been a good person. And you went to university and you've climbed the ladder. And you found yourself in, in this job description that

• 32:43Speaker 01

  means you wanna sort of exploit

• 32:46Speaker 01

  someone for their artistic creations and strike a deal with them. Your lies stand out to me as like robotic, uncharismatic. You know, you, you, you wanna meet a Scouser and see the way that they can steal or sell something.

• 33:05Speaker 00

  Un sophisticated deception.

• 33:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, you get to these sort of

• 33:13Speaker 01

  corporate liars. And, and I, I struggle with it. Cause I can sort of see it coming a mile off. And for them, they've compartmentalized it because it's their, it's their job. And what they're thinking is, yeah, but outside of my job, I'm actually a really nice person. Like when I go home with my family and friends, I'm, I'm honest, I'm cool. But what you've done is you've accepted a job description that means that you're putting a smile on, trying to take more off the table than you're putting on.

• 33:44Speaker 01

  And for me, that doesn't sit well. You know, and, and I think that's why being independent, staying independent. Um, and sort of climbing the ladder has, has been my path.

• 33:56Speaker 00

  What does ignore discreditation mean?

• 34:00Speaker 01

  Yes, it is like, um,

• 34:05Speaker 01

  in that particular instance,

• 34:08Speaker 01

  I'm talking about the fact that when you get into the underbelly, like there's

• 34:13Speaker 01

  certain things you have to get under your belt to be deemed as credible. You know, you're a,

• 34:23Speaker 01

  again, if we use the, the Harry Potter analogy, you're, you're a credible wizard.

• 34:30Speaker 01

  Um, when you then transition over to being completely legitimate and having morals and principles,

• 34:41Speaker 01

  then, then people that have sort of stayed in the darkness will, will sort of try and discredit your,

• 34:50Speaker 01

  the realism of, of your story or who you say you are or what it is that you say that you've lived through. You, you, you're, you're no, you're no longer a part of this. I just don't believe in it, you know, I, I.

• 35:05Speaker 01

  And I think, by the way, I think, I think that's can happen to anybody. I'm sure that you getting to where you've got to in life has came with many a person trying to just discredit you for what you are, who you are, what you've become through all the challenges that you've endured. You know, and just try and take away from all of that as if what's happening here is luck. So it, it's not, I was using it in, in its particular, but it's not particular. I think it's just the mindset of

• 35:40Speaker 01

  the sort of victimhood person towards a person that is, that no longer identifies with being a victim. I think they'll discredit you. And, and I think the psychology behind that is how, how have they done it? Why has it happened for him? Why has Chris's podcast blown up? Right? And because they can't justify that in their head, they'll just discredit everything you've ever done.

• 36:07Speaker 00

  Well, it closes the gap. You know, anyone that makes progress throws into sharp contrast the lack of progress by the people around them.

• 36:17Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 36:18Speaker 00

  And that's uncomfortable.

• 36:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:20Speaker 00

  There's a, the, a bunch of sort of male subcultures on the internet that don't like the word ascending. So, uh, if you're struggling to get a girl and somebody in this community manages to not even get a relationship or get a kiss or whatever, even if the barista at Starbucks, that her eyes linger a little bit longer on them than they think they should do, maybe she might be a little bit interested. That's seen as kind of being persona non grata inside of the community. And the reason is that if you ascend, if you become a, a, a person who's a fake cell as opposed to an incel, so incel involuntary celibate, fake cell, you weren't one of us anyway.

• 37:03Speaker 00

  What it means is if this person is able to be very close to me in terms of construction and worries and concerns and maybe, uh, disfigurement or height or charisma or setbacks or, uh, financial status or whatever it might be, but is able to get to a place that at one point in the past I wanted to, but have since given up on. That now still leaves the doorway open for hope and for aspiration. And that means that if I'm not getting there, that might be on my shoulders. And I think that that's microcosm is what happens broadly when anyone that comes from an area where lots of people would love to get out of it to ascend in one form or another.

• 37:47Speaker 00

  Maybe it's a dysfunctional northern town in the UK. Maybe it's a, uh, sports team that lots of people had the opportunity to get started in. But if one person that you used to play football with goes on to become a pro, oh, well, you know, his parents had more money than mine. Or he, you know, he, he, the coach liked him more than they did me. Or he was a suck up, he was always being a suck, whatever. The ability to try and discredit the legitimacy of someone's progress reduces the distance between the person who didn't make it and the person that did by saying that it was unfair. Or they cheated, they sold out, they aren't that talented, whatever, they got lucky. And, uh, as opposed to going, fuck, what, what should I learn?

• 38:31Speaker 00

  How can I try and deconstruct the path that was taken there? And yeah, for sure, like lots of people managed to make it through fortune and serendipity and, uh, uh, unfairness or like nepotism or favors. All of that stuff happens, but I think far less than people actually think.

• 38:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think my career has allowed me to sort of heal publicly and talk about some of the things that I've been sort of learning on my journey, so I share it with people.

• 39:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:05Speaker 01

  And so I try and I try and take things down to the essence. And I think the word there is accountability, ruthless accountability.

• 39:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:14Speaker 01

  And I think when a person struggles to be accountable, that's what it looks like, you know? And so I'm almost tricking the audience in that a guy listening to me might be thirteen years old and he's not really that interested in healing. He actually doesn't know how broken he's gonna be later on down the line when trauma sort of sets in and takes a hold. Um, but just the sort of phrase to be inspired. If you sort of take that on and take it seriously, it will change your outlook on the guy that became a professional footballer.

• 39:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:51Speaker 01

  And you'll admit to yourself, do you know what? When he was trying, I wasn't. When he was doing the runs, when he was doing the extra stretching, when he was watching and studying the game, I wa- I wasn't even interested, I was chilling. And that's why he's a professional footballer and I'm on the streets chilling with my mates. At least then you get the opportunity to pick somewhere else and go again. You know, and and that's what accountability will do. It will tell you the truth, you know, and that's what I'm interested in. And that's why rap music as a job description is tough.

• 40:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:25Speaker 01

  Because for you to tell the truth about your life experience pisses a lot of people off, man.

• 40:32Speaker 00

  Why?

• 40:33Speaker 01

  Because you sort of can't help but tell parts of their story that they don't want light shining on.

• 40:41Speaker 01

  You know, and you can be as respectful as you as you want, try to be as respectful as you want. Or you can be as brash as you want, but you will end up telling other people's stories. I think Martin Scorsese talks about that in the films that he makes. And a lot of his inspiration comes from early, it might be New York, sort of mob culture. And and he said a lot of people was upset with him because naturally his inspiration was the things he really seen.

• 41:13Speaker 00

  Uh huh.

• 41:14Speaker 01

  Right? But what to us is Robert De Niro having an argument in the street. In his world is is some real person somewhere that's like, Martin, I know you. I'll be telling my story to the world, you know? And I'm I'm sure it's the same for a guy rich here.

• 41:32Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 41:33Speaker 01

  A Tarantino, these artists and storytellers, you're the best, the best stories are true.

• 41:42Speaker 01

  You know, and real and honest.

• 41:44Speaker 00

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• 42:29Speaker 00

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• 42:54Speaker 00

  You flinched.

• 42:58Speaker 00

  You used the word vulnerability earlier on.

• 43:01Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 43:02Speaker 00

  What's your relationship like with vulnerability?

• 43:06Speaker 01

  A heavy one.

• 43:09Speaker 01

  Because it's something that you're always.

• 43:15Speaker 01

  Vulnerability is like a guy that's stood there with his fists up, ready to throw punches at you. And you're just, you're nervous, you don't wanna go anywhere near this guy. He looks big and strong, you could tell it's gonna hurt. And and it's your job to get closer and closer and eventually go and have to fight, go and face it head on. You know, and it's just something that as bravery sort of sets in, courage.

• 43:43Speaker 01

  In in my instance, a hopelessness.

• 43:48Speaker 01

  You you sort of hit rock bottom.

• 43:51Speaker 01

  You sort of realise that you're not as cool as you thought you were.

• 43:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:57Speaker 01

  And and you you ain't got nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. You're too tired to run from it. So you just get into the fight and you just stand in the in the face of

• 44:10Speaker 01

  the truth. Um, and in order to do that, you you have to be vulnerable, you have to be open to embarrassment. Um, and yeah, so that that's been my my experience. And I and I think with making this album, I've um

• 44:29Speaker 01

  I've really had to go there, man. And I think in in going there, you see yourself in a in a way that um might not be as glamorous as you'd like for it to be.

• 44:41Speaker 00

  What did you learn?

• 44:45Speaker 01

  That I'm just a human being, man. I think I thought, I think I think to be successful, early doors.

• 44:56Speaker 01

  Um.

• 44:59Speaker 01

  You think a lot of yourself because you're just trying to get your head around like, how did that happen?

• 45:06Speaker 01

  You know, you know, and you think more of yourself than you actually are.

• 45:13Speaker 01

  And then there comes a point where you see yourself for what you actually are.

• 45:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:16Speaker 01

  And you're like, oh, you know?

• 45:21Speaker 01

  So I, yeah, I guess I learned that um

• 45:25Speaker 01

  the work paid off, the consistency paid off, the standing back up after getting knocked down paid off. But I'm nobody special. Do you know what I mean? Like I'm not above people because my results have came in sooner than theirs, you know?

• 45:40Speaker 00

  Was there a moment or formative experience that was the beginning of that honesty, truthfulness, self-reflection, vulnerability, like inflection point? Is there something that sort of spurred that on or did it accumulate over time?

• 45:57Speaker 01

  Just just the um

• 46:00Speaker 01

  the the solitude of walking the path. While I was making the album, we was using the analogy of the tunnel.

• 46:09Speaker 01

  And what was what I was basically saying in the studio is that like

• 46:15Speaker 01

  success, the place that you see yourself getting to. There's like a tunnel between you and that place and you're in your starting point.

• 46:29Speaker 01

  Dysfunction, whatever it is for you as an individual. And then there's this tunnel, you think, yeah, I'm brave enough to take that. You'll run into this tunnel, everybody else stays behind because they think it's dark, I'm not going in there. There's a point halfway through the tunnel where you're being ridiculed, by the way, by the people that didn't go in. They weren't brave enough to go into the tunnel, but they're shouting and calling you names. They're trying to scare you out of it.

• 46:54Speaker 01

  And there's a point where you sort of look back and you did, you can no longer see the light at the end of the tunnel that way. But now you can't see the light at the end of the tunnel that way. And then you step on the on the bones and the remains of the people that failed before you in the tunnel. You start to realise you're in sort of dark territory and it and it might not happen. And at that point, what do you do? Do you freeze and and try and go backwards? Or do you keep a steady nerve and and keep marching forwards, which is all that you can do? You know, until eventually you can see light at the end of the tunnel and eventually you get to your destination.

• 47:34Speaker 01

  And that tunnel is the reason, that is the difference between individuals like yourself that get it over the line and individuals that stay at the beginning of the tunnel, shouting in and ridiculing you, hoping that you fall, hoping that you you're not brave enough to keep walking forward. Now, I use that analogy to sort of talk about the isolation and the solitude that happens in the tunnel. Because you you lose a world that you're familiar with. You lose a type of an individual that you're familiar with, you understand, you relate to. And there's a long period between going from where you were to where it is that you're gonna go.

• 48:16Speaker 01

  That you'll be isolated and in and in solitude. And I think that for me was the sort of pivotal point where I was like, oh, I have to have this fight.

• 48:28Speaker 01

  I have to face all of my insecurities and all of my fears head on. You know, and I think that unlocks a version of you that people can no longer pull down.

• 48:41Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 48:41Speaker 01

  You know?

• 48:42Speaker 00

  There's a line from Bedros Cullian, he says, your haters are out there holding their breath, waiting for you to fail. Make sure they suffocate.

• 48:51Speaker 01

  Ah, there you go.

• 48:54Speaker 01

  They have no choice other than to suffocate. Because.

• 49:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, and and when I when I talk about the brutal honesty. At the bottom, at the bottom, I've met some of the most honest people I've I've ever met. And then you get into the corporate world and you meet a guy in a suit and you think this is it. I'm around some affluent people now, like.

• 49:19Speaker 00

  High integrity.

• 49:19Speaker 01

  High integrity and it's just not the way it is.

• 49:24Speaker 00

  Just villains with slightly nicer suits.

• 49:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, man, they've learned to hide themselves, man.

• 49:28Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. It's really interesting. I I know exactly what you mean. There's there's something more kind of noble about the, yeah, I'm the bad guy.

• 49:40Speaker 00

  I'm dressed in black. I've got a balaclava in my pocket, as opposed to the dude that's got a protect Philippe on and is smiling at you as he tries to get you to sign this particular contract.

• 49:50Speaker 01

  There you go. There you go. And and and not being said, it means I am educated. And the reason that I talk like that is because you sort of come from the bottom and you don't feel like you belong when you're in a room full of people that went to university. Wow, what's that like, right? But it's like, actually, my education's the real one. Cause we're all in the same world, right? And then you start understanding that actually I'm ahead. My intuition's much stronger than yours. My sense of reality is much stronger than yours. You know, and and that being said, that's that's what I'm trying to do through music. I'm sure I'll go over into acting and

• 50:35Speaker 01

  sort of give an account of myself. But through music, I try and give an account of myself that makes people understand their own strength, their own power. You know, that that just because somebody may have started in a in a position where it was better than the position you started in, it doesn't mean anything, man. You've been given the challenges that you need to take you to, that's quite profound, actually.

• 51:04Speaker 01

  Last time I was on your show, I was talking about like the law of attraction. My opinion on that has has changed slightly.

• 51:10Speaker 00

  Okay, tell me about the law of attraction.

• 51:11Speaker 01

  The more that my faith strengthens, the more the more I have an understanding of God, the more I sort of feel as if we're sort of co-creators in that. You will see the way that your life's gonna go. I'm gonna do a podcast. I'm gonna do these shows. I'm gonna live in this kind of a house. I think you're then given the challenges in order to make you that kind of a person, a person that can not only attain them things, but maintain them things. That's what the solitude's for. That's what the hardships for. That's what the stress is for. It's building a strength and a resilience

• 51:52Speaker 01

  that means that not only will you get that house that you wanna live in, you'll be able to maintain it, light work. You know, so yeah, that's, yeah.

• 52:01Speaker 00

  What's your insight around dark forces as you are able to make a more positive change in the world?

• 52:14Speaker 00

  Dark influence, realizing that the impact is so positive that they need to put increasingly difficult challenges in your way. We talked about this last time, but I find it really interesting. Are you thinking this is devil, bad energy, karmic retribution? How do you see this happening?

• 52:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think you've got, um, in with within the within the album, I play with biblical framework. Right? Just because if you look at some of these cathedrals, men were building them sometimes for three hundred years. And as you know, a man will live for eighty years. He has to pass on the assignment. So there's something in religion to be taken seriously. However,

• 53:00Speaker 01

  I sort of look at, let's say, if we look at a different culture and a different religion, and you look at a guy and you look at the the grandparent of this guy's grandmother, and she's a really nice person, she's helped bring the kids up. Just because she's of a different religion to another person, I'm not sure that means that she's not in contact with God. So I I I sort of take a step back from being sort of particular in my thinking towards religion and the devil and I'm really down here living it, which sort of goes back to what you were saying before about

• 53:36Speaker 01

  when you're living it, it's hard to apply everything. Because it's all going on, you know? So I think you can get as deep into sort of biblical framework or sort of um, spiritual thinking

• 53:52Speaker 01

  as you want, but we're here in the physical, living it, and you've got a sort of, um,

• 53:59Speaker 01

  you've got a sort of wrap your mind around it. And I think from this conversation, you can see that analogies and stuff has has been the way I've learned.

• 54:09Speaker 00

  Do you think pain is the best teacher? Or is it the loudest teacher?

• 54:17Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, if you

• 54:20Speaker 01

  you disrespect a man on a cold night and he punches you in your face,

• 54:27Speaker 01

  you'll you'll quite quickly learn that you've done something wrong in that situation. You'll you'll be in that situation again in front of a guy that looks big and strong. And you will think the next time you you address that person,

• 54:42Speaker 01

  how how am I gonna conduct myself when I say something here? Because I wouldn't like to get a tooth punched out on a on a cold night. So I just think it's the, I think it's, I think it's shocking. I think as a human being to have a nervous system, it's hard not to be influenced by pain. And I think I think these are the ways that God teaches you. I think I think pain's a big part of that. So I think it's one of the one of the most sort of impactful teachers.

• 55:13Speaker 00

  How do you handle fear? What's your relationship like with fear?

• 55:17Speaker 01

  Like everybody else.

• 55:20Speaker 01

  Like everybody else, man. Sometimes fear wins. But what I've realized about fear winning is you sort of run and hide, right? And a pivotal point in my life where I could give you an example of of my relationship to fear is, and I may have touched on it with you, but I I get stabbed off a guy. No? I'm eleven years old. I go onto an estate to see some friends. I asked me to come out and, um,

• 55:56Speaker 01

  and some guys sort of starting a problem with me and

• 56:02Speaker 01

  he ends up stabbing me.

• 56:05Speaker 01

  And what happened, I've touched on this before, but I've not gone into this particular point. And what sort of happened is I I went home, I hid in the trousers from my my mom. I got stabbed in my leg.

• 56:16Speaker 00

  What by? What was it?

• 56:17Speaker 01

  It was a screwdriver. And he opened me up, you know? So there was a lot of blood and the holes in these pants. Um, and after that, I was afraid.

• 56:30Speaker 01

  The six weeks holidays came up where everybody goes out to play with their mates and I wanted to stay in. Right? And there was just sort of a three year period where

• 56:42Speaker 01

  that situation was in the back of my mind. The fear of that situation, the pain that I felt, the embarrassment in front of these people that invited me out. Some of them was girls. They picked my bike up. They smashed my bike.

• 56:57Speaker 01

  I was I was running from all of them feelings to a point where I went into a sort of a really dark place where I was experiencing suicidal thoughts. I made a couple of attempts, but was too young and too cowardly to really sort of get that over the line. And and at that point,

• 57:17Speaker 01

  is when I realized I had to face it. And I went on to have that guy a a fair fight on his estate. Um, and I and I won that fight. And that was, that for me was gave me an understanding of fear. And what it made me realize is you can hide for as long as you want, but at some point, you've you've got to come out of the house. Some point, you've got to face whatever it is that's that you find scary. And again, have that fight. So that's my relationship to fear. Sometimes it still wins. Right? Sometimes I'm just not ready to have that particular fight.

• 57:56Speaker 01

  But then a lot of the times now, I just go and get it done.

• 58:03Speaker 01

  Within reason as well, there's some, there's some fights that the time's not now.

• 58:08Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 58:09Speaker 01

  Some, some fights can wait. Um, and then some fights are imminent and you just go and get it done.

• 58:16Speaker 00

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• 59:00Speaker 00

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• 59:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:23Speaker 00

  What's that mean to you?

• 59:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think.

• 59:30Speaker 01

  So you've just been doing a tour, right? You'll, you'll have made progress on some of them nights. The, the, it's the same as a seed being planted. And you don't see the first bit of the seed growing.

• 59:44Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 59:44Speaker 01

  Because we're outside of the soil, looking at the ground. But it doesn't mean that it's not, it's not progressing. The seed has started to sprout. It's started to grow. You know, eventually it'll be a big, beautiful tree or whatever it's going to become. Uh, but you, you must believe in the fact that progress was being made under the ground.

• 1:00:05Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:00:05Speaker 01

  And they're some of the toughest nights because you might be trying to become somebody in your life and like nothing's happening. It's like me now, for an example, I've made make it maintain it. I call it part one. Because I eventually I'll make a part two, but by the time I make part two, I'm not interested in being a rapper no more. I'm not, I'm not trying to sell albums, even with this album, I've not promoted it much.

• 1:00:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, so this is for the people listening, this is the day before the album drops. Uh, there's been one pre-release song, one, two?

• 1:00:43Speaker 01

  A couple.

• 1:00:43Speaker 00

  Yeah. Uh.

• 1:00:46Speaker 00

  Doing this podcast today, I know why you're here in London. You're busy doing a big project.

• 1:00:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:51Speaker 00

  That isn't the album which comes out tomorrow.

• 1:00:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:00:54Speaker 00

  And you're spending a few hours today and then we're doing dinner later on. But I mean, it's, it's something that's obviously very meaningful to you and yet you're getting on with life outside of it. Two, it's already transcending.

• 1:01:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And, and I'm interested in, in diversifying. So the project there that you're talking about, they actually announced that the other day.

• 1:01:18Speaker 00

  Did they?

• 1:01:19Speaker 01

  So we can touch on it, which is.

• 1:01:21Speaker 00

  Tell me.

• 1:01:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's the, the gentleman series three with Guy Ritchie. Um, which is just an exciting prospect for me. Uh, being that Guy Ritchie films prior to me being in the media were films that really sort of grabbed my attention. His style of directing really grabbed my attention. I look at rap music as a young man's sport, not to say that I'm not a young man now, but.

• 1:01:51Speaker 01

  Rap music is sort of about the and the transcendence of dysfunction. Anything after that, you can hang about too long. And I'm sort of looking at my skill set and I'm like, I've got transferable skills that will apply to different worlds. Acting to me looks like a world I'm interested in, in going over into.

• 1:02:11Speaker 00

  You will be the only actor from the gentleman movie in the gentleman series. Is that right?

• 1:02:19Speaker 01

  Ah, yeah. Yeah.

• 1:02:21Speaker 00

  That's crazy.

• 1:02:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. All right. What a privilege.

• 1:02:26Speaker 00

  I mean, fuck me, like Guy Ritchie is the most on fire man in the world at the moment. Uh, just out of this world. Good. And the most recent gentleman series is like, I'm seeing guys dressing like Theo James.

• 1:02:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:43Speaker 00

  Like people deciding, oh, this is going to be my expression of myself. It's an entire new subculture, I think, and it's crossed across into America as well.

• 1:02:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I'd, I'd sort of.

• 1:02:59Speaker 01

  I haven't even said this to Guy, but I'd sort of say that Guy Ritchie's time is, is coming.

• 1:03:06Speaker 01

  I don't even think we've seen his best work.

• 1:03:08Speaker 00

  Which is crackers to say, given that when was like lock, stock and those movies? Twenty five years old, at least twenty years old, right?

• 1:03:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, look, I'm speaking out of school because again, they're not conversations that I've had with Guy. But in my early sort of career in music, there's a freedom in, in your first releases. You're not really a part of the industry, you know, rigidity is not set in, in that like loads of responsibility comes with it. Fame might come with it. These just things that happen that can impact. Um, the type of work that you make. And in my experience, you end up catering to the audience at some points. That never works. You know, you end up thinking you're smarter than you actually are at some point. So that never works.

• 1:04:03Speaker 01

  And you end up making some work that's not a true representative. It's still solid work, but it's not a true sort of representation of the, the artist that you actually are. Um, so in the, my short experience of, of being in and amongst sort of Guy Ritchie's atmosphere. I think he, I think he gets better.

• 1:04:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't, I don't think he's peaked yet.

• 1:04:30Speaker 00

  There's a line that I had to write down from season two of the gentleman. I think it's Theo's character when he's ill, when he's banged up.

• 1:04:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:04:41Speaker 00

  He's sick and he's, he's been in that fight. And he says, it's not until you leave yourself behind that you can experience who you truly are. I thought that was so lovely and I wonder whether there's something similar with what you're talking about here that you start off. I, I have something to say and it's true, but it's unrefined. It's like rough, right? So I have a lot of raw material to work with, but I don't maybe have the experience that allows it to fully flourish. And then after a little bit of time, you gain some experience, but you gain some pressure and some awareness and some notoriety and some expectations. And people, when you do these things and you've got a great first project, like, let's see if you can run it back again and again and again.

• 1:05:24Speaker 00

  And then maybe you go off track a little bit with that and then, oh, okay, well, I, I tried to chase success by giving people what I thought that they wanted. That's not fulfilled me in the way that the original one did, but now I've got the experience to be able to make something more grand, more beautiful, truer to what it is. But I've got all of these other things pulling me in different directions. So I'm seduced. There's sort of this eroticism of, of, of attention that comes from the people around me and, and, and the world and the recognition. Okay. So I need to rid myself of that. I need to keep the experience. I need to stay tapped into the thing that I had in the very beginning. And then finally, if you can weave through this maze with seductresses and temptresses and sirens all over the place.

• 1:06:07Speaker 00

  Finally you get to come out the other side and you go, wow, I have all the experience. I'm still.

• 1:06:14Speaker 00

  Emotionally, existentially connected to sort of what that route is. And now I've rid myself, all the barnacles have been culled off the bottom of the ship so that I can actually finally get there. And I think that's, that's hopefully what mastery looks like. You know, this sort of ever increasing refinement of getting better and better and better at your art.

• 1:06:36Speaker 01

  The journey of greatness, man.

• 1:06:38Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:06:38Speaker 01

  That, that was a far more articulate way. Of, of saying what I was just saying about Guy Ritchie.

• 1:06:44Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:06:45Speaker 01

  You know?

• 1:06:45Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:06:46Speaker 01

  You, you witness somebody's journey. There's lots of greatness on the way. Um, but then eventually the, the, the work sort of complete. And, and, and yeah, that's what you're left with a, a master of their craft. And I just don't think there's many of them in this day and age, man. You know, if you, if you go back as early as like Da Vinci in the, in the, I've got a track called Da Vinci on the album. And in the beginning I say, in the Mona Lisa, there's hundreds of layers of paint called it's Da Vinci because there's hundreds of layers of paint. And when I was, I'll sort of try and study guys like Da Vinci. This is where I'm probably quite unusual.

• 1:07:26Speaker 00

  But you texted me at the start of this year, I did a, an episode with a guy who broke down the life of Da Vinci, how to think like Da Vinci. I was going back through our messages earlier on today and you'd sent me a text about that, that particular episode.

• 1:07:41Speaker 01

  Bigging you up. It's a big episode. And so now we're getting to a, probably a version of me that I've not probably even spoke about much. Um, and there was, there was a point when, when, when I'm sixteen, I'm sat in jail in solitary confinement. And I have this dream that these, like an earthquake or something. And all the world's coming to an end and everybody's escaping, but I'm stuck in this room. I'm locked in this room. And nobody's going to come and let me out and the whole world's falling down outside. And in that moment, as a sixteen year old guy, people that you came up in school with or whatever are sort of getting their GCSEs. And I remember being like, not so much envious, but.

• 1:08:26Speaker 01

  Aware of the fact that like my household was falling to bits. There's no way I could have focused and got my education. Now, to go back to the victimhood narrative and the accountability that we spoke about before. My approach to that was I'm gonna go and self educate. So I can only really educate on things I'm interested in. So I try and, yeah, I try and find, I mean, I can educate myself in areas. Again, I was talking about ADHD not long ago, talking about ADHD or ADD and whatever. And the more that I take accountability and strengthen up, the more I sort of realise, like, do you know what, I can learn the things I'm not interested in. It just takes more of my energy.

• 1:09:11Speaker 01

  I'm bored, I'm yawning, but I get through it. I will build the stamina to get through it. And that's where I've sort of got to now, right? However, Renaissance art and things like that are things that I'm just naturally interested in.

• 1:09:23Speaker 00

  What was it you were telling me? Did you say that you got into learning about, is it crests? Like how the coat of arms is constructed because you needed it for your house? Am I making this up?

• 1:09:36Speaker 01

  No, no, no.

• 1:09:37Speaker 00

  What's it called? What's the name for it?

• 1:09:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, coat of arms, basically. What would, what would happen is in the early days, and I guess that's attached to my interest in history. Right? Because when I'm, when I'm sort of looking around at the system that's in place, I'm like, let me strip this back. And let me go to the beginning, prior to the system and the types of people that put systems like this in place. So I can have an understanding of what I'm looking at when I'm walking through this corporate world. What I need to take serious and what's not that interesting. And when you get back to the sort of early days, the primeval days, what would happen is lots of wars would be kicking off in them days. And you would have, if you was sort of associated with royalty, family of the king or, you know,

• 1:10:23Speaker 01

  attached to royalty, you would have a coat of arms that would have sort of a representation of how that king came up. And that, I don't know, it just fascinated me in the fact that some of these kings were just men that was able to take power by force. And then you've got to think, who is that individual? Well, that's, that's the essence of what a king is. Because when you get to guys like Henry VIII, when he was like educated and flipping, bit spoiled and chopping his wife's head off. When they'd annoy him, really, he doesn't represent what an actual king is. A king is a, is a man that's took power by force. He's made it and he's maintained it. And that's the essence of what I'm kind of talking about.

• 1:11:08Speaker 01

  I'm talking about the fact that any man can be a king. And this doesn't mean that you're gonna rule the land, you're gonna be the king of the place that you live. But you'd be the king of your own kingdom. And that's just what I got interested in anyway. So that's the nature of me getting interested in the coat of arms. What would happen is be a big battle and you might have had your ass whooped, all you guys are dead. And then you bump into ten guys from the other side on horses or whatever. And they would see you ordinarily, what they might do is just chop your head off, something to do. Torture, whatever they felt like doing, because there's no laws going on at that point. But if you've got this particular coat of arms on, it's in their best interest to take you back to their king.

• 1:11:54Speaker 01

  And they would then, their king would decide what to do. And ordinarily, you might negotiate with, with, with your king and sell you back to that king for a ransom. Anyway, so then they'd make a crest of that coat of arms. I made a fragrance called The House of Vision and it was a part of designing that fragrance. So I guess I'm, I'm lucky in that I've got job descriptions that allow me to educate myself in places. You know, I'm not just generic. If you put me back in a room with the kids that were A class students, that got As in their exams while I was sat in jail, I bet now I'm more sophisticated than them in many areas.

• 1:12:38Speaker 01

  Because that was a generic version of history. I've gone off and got into the nuances, the little details of how things really work and how it's applicable to sort of times now. So, so, yeah. And your episode on Da Vinci, again,

• 1:12:57Speaker 01

  a version of me that people probably don't understand is I, I go away and I, I educate myself more and I read lots. And I, and I go and open my mind because, because of where I've come from. I think there's, there's gonna be people in the underbelly that are coming from real dysfunction, that have no one to grab on to and, and look at. I think the more my career grows, the more they'll sort of grab on to me.

• 1:13:26Speaker 01

  And by the time I get there, I need to be educated enough to be able to stand on what it is I'm actually seeing. Let alone having the type of wife that I'm interested in having. Let alone bringing up the types of kids that I'm interested in bringing up. You know, so education in that respect is, is key, I think.

• 1:13:46Speaker 00

  There's always another level. There's always another level to keep on educating yourself to, to develop yourself toward. And in some ways, that can make people feel a bit despondent because I'm never done. I'm never finished. But also, if you enjoy what it is that you're learning, if you enjoy the process of growth and improving yourself and impacting the people around you, the people that you haven't even found yet. The wife that you don't have, the kids that don't exist, the dog that you haven't raised.

• 1:14:17Speaker 00

  The house that you haven't bought. It's an opportunity.

• 1:14:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I, and I think that is where maintaining comes into the equation. I think that diet, the anatomy, the way that the body works, how to keep the body strong and functional. The mind, how to keep the mind elasticated and open to learning more. I think, I think these are all things that are necessity. I don't think there's any two ways of buying it. You, you even gonna be the type of an old person that's got a walking stick and you're frail? Or you're gonna be one of these that we're seeing a lot of in, in the modern day and age, where you're still looking young and feeling fresh and, you know, living your best life?

• 1:15:07Speaker 01

  That's what I'm interested in. That's the kind of wealth I'm interested in. I'm content. I've got everything I ever wanted.

• 1:15:18Speaker 01

  If I'm smart, there'd be people far richer than me. But if I'm smart, I'll never work again. At that, I'm uninterested, man. What I'm interested in now is enjoying my life, doing the things I enjoy doing. Building the family I'd like to build, looking after my children, giving them every opportunity to live a solid life. You know, and that's what, that's what maintenance is. You know, it's the, you take the kingdom by force and then you maintain the kingdom by,

• 1:15:56Speaker 01

  with discipline and consistency, you know?

• 1:16:00Speaker 00

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• 1:16:44Speaker 00

  That's gym.sh/modernwisdom and MODERNWISDOM10 at checkout. Do you think if you stayed in primarily focusing on rap, that that would limit you? Limit your growth, limit your life?

• 1:16:59Speaker 01

  I've probably been in the rap game longer than you should.

• 1:17:04Speaker 01

  And I've been able to do that because my, my storytelling ability is, that's, that's a gift that I've been given. That's, that's one of the gifts that I've got.

• 1:17:18Speaker 01

  And, and I remember, I remember being young and, and being in lots of trouble. I was at an old friend's house, who was on the computer, the Playstation. And his mum rushes up the stairs all flustered and worried and she's like, just had the police on the phone. And she's like, you've got an Osmond warning.

• 1:17:40Speaker 01

  And I could be wrong about that word, but I think it's an Osmond warning. And that's when there's intelligence that somebody wants to take your life.

• 1:17:47Speaker 00

  About you?

• 1:17:48Speaker 01

  About him.

• 1:17:49Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:17:50Speaker 01

  I had nowhere to live, so I was staying on his sofa.

• 1:17:54Speaker 01

  And it, it didn't fluster us. It was, it was the lifestyle we was living at the time. We thought we was gonna be career criminals and this was the, our sort of practice stages. This was the same as being a, a young boxer in the gym, sparring.

• 1:18:08Speaker 00

  How old were you?

• 1:18:10Speaker 01

  Four, 14, 15.

• 1:18:14Speaker 01

  And at that time of my life, so much chaos was happening on a day to day basis. That I was sort of, that's one of the few times I've questioned God. I've been like, why, why am I having to go through all of this? And it's not until my career sort of formulates and takes shape that I understand that like, oh, I'm able to be a storyteller in the rap business that's actually got lots to talk about. You know? And it's, I'm just coming to a stage now where I think the rap game, it goes in stages of, you're from a dysfunctional background.

• 1:18:57Speaker 01

  You talk about that, here's who I am, here's where I'm from, here's what it's been like. We relate to that guy.

• 1:19:03Speaker 01

  He gets another album out of that if he's clever.

• 1:19:07Speaker 01

  Then he's got some money. And then he starts talking about the money, the cars, the girls and what he spent his money on.

• 1:19:14Speaker 01

  What I'm talking about in this album is the point that's under documented in rap, which is what happens after you've spoke about where you've come from, an audience has connected with you.

• 1:19:29Speaker 01

  You've earned some dough, you've spent some money on some fancy things.

• 1:19:34Speaker 01

  What next? That's maintaining, it's main maintenance. We've got that in America.

• 1:19:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:19:40Speaker 01

  We've got Jay-Z, we've got Fifty Cent, we've got, but if you look at guys like P Diddy, if you look at the way, you know, Fifty Cent conducts himself, there's still some heavy dysfunction going on.

• 1:19:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:19:53Speaker 01

  In the mix of that, and don't get me wrong, America's a big brash place. So the British rap game is a different game.

• 1:20:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:20:00Speaker 01

  However.

• 1:20:01Speaker 00

  Kanye West, probably another good example.

• 1:20:02Speaker 01

  Good example, lots of dysfunction there, right? And but we're British, so we conduct ourselves different.

• 1:20:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:20:09Speaker 01

  So I'm one of the first British rappers, one of the pioneers in that here's what it looks like after that phase.

• 1:20:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:20:16Speaker 01

  And I I I understand the responsibility of that position. And that's why I take diversifying serious. And a lot of other rappers will be shocked. And will find themselves having to follow the blueprint and I I just don't say that in an egotistical way, I don't. I mean it with all due respect, I'm just on my journey. I'm not even interested in being better than anybody else at this point, I'm really just competing with myself. However, rapping is a young man's game. You know, and there comes a point where you must diversify. A lot of boxers don't diversify, a lot of footballers don't diversify and it all goes wrong. We see them, they've put weight on, they've spent a lot of the money on the addictions they've picked up and they're sad.

• 1:21:02Speaker 01

  So therefore, you you have to take that transition serious. You know, you you must diversify. And and in diversifying, you get yourself a more adult job description. So I'm interested in being an actor.

• 1:21:17Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:21:17Speaker 01

  And um take into consideration the fact that as a man, it's your job to look after a wife and children. You know, and I I think I just see people that I that don't take that aspect of um

• 1:21:36Speaker 01

  participating in a young man's sport serious, they don't take the next phase of their life serious.

• 1:21:42Speaker 00

  It's interesting, I've been thinking a good bit about

• 1:21:47Speaker 00

  something like mastery with an open heart.

• 1:21:51Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:21:51Speaker 00

  What drives most people, especially in the beginning, to work hard, to be diligent, to be disciplined, is maybe a chip on their shoulder, it's wanting to prove people wrong. It's wanting recognition and validation, admiration, respect from people that they respect. It's wanting to get money and freedom and independence, to be able to navigate their own sovereignty, to not need permission from anybody, it's a lot of fuel in the beginning. And I'm interested how many people are able to continue chasing mastery

• 1:22:27Speaker 00

  without relying on the toxic fuel that was there in the beginning. What happens when you've spent that fuel tank?

• 1:22:36Speaker 00

  Because you can keep using it, but over a long enough time period, it is toxic.

• 1:22:42Speaker 01

  Well, because then you've got to go and produce more of the fuel.

• 1:22:44Speaker 00

  Hundred percent. I have a a a I know of a a couple of guys recently who have basically manufactured enemies.

• 1:22:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:54Speaker 00

  They've they've, this situation, a bunch of situations actually, did not need the level of friction, cantankerousness, uh divergence, uh disagreement. It didn't need that, you, these enemies have been confected, concocted, confabulated out of nowhere. Purely so that this person has something to push up against.

• 1:23:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, sophisticated.

• 1:23:25Speaker 01

  And articulate, I'm I've been guilty of that.

• 1:23:29Speaker 00

  I'm gonna make an enemy, I'm gonna make an enemy to give me more of this fuel that I worry I'm dwindling out of.

• 1:23:35Speaker 01

  I reckon Fifty Cent's guilty of that.

• 1:23:37Speaker 00

  Who, what, what, which enemies has he done? I don't know the law.

• 1:23:41Speaker 01

  But no, by the way, I have I have no interest in in sort of speaking on another man's journey, it's just an observation. Um if I talk about myself, which is all I understand, um I just see similarities, right, that I can relate to. And what happens in the streets is there's some scary individual that would like to take you off the face of the planet if they could.

• 1:24:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:24:06Speaker 01

  And it's down to, I don't know, jealousy, hatred, anger, whatever the reason is. But it it fires up something in you.

• 1:24:14Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:24:15Speaker 01

  That also happens in boxing. When you walk into the boxing gym and the coach says, I've got you a fight.

• 1:24:24Speaker 01

  Really? Yeah, you're gonna be fighting this guy, he's had this many fights and it's real. You're gonna be having a fight that would have this have a similar effect on you. And what it is, is these uh hmm, there's this sort of final destination in your mind, if you're not careful, whereby the worst can occur, like you can really, you can lose. And in losing, you can lose your identity, you can lose your self-respect, there's so much on the line. And it just brings out a new version of yourself. You'll do the extra run.

• 1:24:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:24:57Speaker 01

  You'll go to bed early, reading a book, you know, you'll and and and I I experienced that in the streets. You have a problem with a scary individual. You you'll take making some money more serious because you're like, I can't be out here forever, man.

• 1:25:13Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:25:14Speaker 01

  Um. So that being said, I'm guilty of trying to initiate the production of that toxic fuel. Yeah, just because

• 1:25:29Speaker 01

  a professional career kicks in in entertainment and some of the lines are blurred. It's like, I'm a rapper, what does that mean exactly? You know, so you've got to create your own framework.

• 1:25:40Speaker 00

  You've manufactured enemies and rivalries because.

• 1:25:43Speaker 01

  Well, they're sort of there, right, but they're just not as

• 1:25:48Speaker 01

  interesting as the worst ones were.

• 1:25:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:25:51Speaker 01

  You actually, your your pride's not on the line. You don't care what they say about you.

• 1:25:56Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:25:57Speaker 01

  But you can open that part of your mind and be like, what did he say?

• 1:26:00Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:26:00Speaker 01

  And it brings out a version of you that you're like, if I bump into him and he thinks, because I'm famous, he's gonna do something to me and I'm not gonna take self-defense serious. That, you know, and that'll just bring out a version of yourself that that turns up with a solid physique.

• 1:26:18Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:26:19Speaker 01

  Turns up focused, has been reading before bed and so there was a lot of that in there. There's a world out there where there's a lot of jealous people, a lot of people that are probably upset with things I've said, things I've done. Um and there's been versions of events where I've actually looked at that. Let me see what these people are thinking and provoked myself.

• 1:26:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:26:39Speaker 01

  Got myself a little bit nervous, thinking, oh, is he out there?

• 1:26:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:26:43Speaker 01

  And he would like a problem with me if he could. All right, for sure. And then you become the version of yourself that is prepared for that challenge.

• 1:26:52Speaker 00

  What do you think about that? Because I I can see both sides of how useful and and adaptive and functional that could be. In one way, it is free fuel for you to push yourself harder to become better. And in another way, you are manufacturing, like just creating out of thin air antagonism against the world.

• 1:27:16Speaker 01

  Well, it's it's energy, essentially, you're farming energy, but it's a crutch also. You're relying on something external to create energy.

• 1:27:27Speaker 00

  In the same way as you were saying, you want to be able to be the best that you can without people around you, bigging you up and telling you that you can be better.

• 1:27:34Speaker 01

  You've got to go through this season of isolation, man, it's just not spoke about enough.

• 1:27:38Speaker 00

  Oh, we're going into winter, that's the winter arc, right?

• 1:27:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, man, and and have the confidence in yourself that you'll come out the other side, man. And in and in that, you will let go of all crutches. I don't need some negative individual that would love to have a problem with me because it prospers his life, but hinders mine, it doesn't matter, I don't need the fuel from that to get up and get to the gym.

• 1:28:01Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:28:01Speaker 01

  And lift heavy, you know, or go sparring and let it fly, you know? So you you you'd learn to

• 1:28:12Speaker 01

  look within and um as opposed to take toxic fuel, find

• 1:28:21Speaker 01

  the real fuel, the, you know, your essence, and really comes from a place of love. That's what the real fuel is.

• 1:28:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:28:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, man, it's love, man. Why am I interested in my purpose? Well, it's because I remember being twelve year old looking at a documentary when we were kings about Muhammad Ali and George Foreman, they go and fight in in Zaire. Was it the rumble in the jungle? And um

• 1:28:54Speaker 01

  and I was just surrounded by complete dysfunction and was desperately looking for sources of inspiration. And that's what I served as in a ma- in a major, major way.

• 1:29:05Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:29:05Speaker 01

  You know, there was suicide on my mind at them times, it was, you know, I was in a dark place and um from a place of love, tapping into that abundant

• 1:29:19Speaker 01

  energy source of love.

• 1:29:21Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:29:22Speaker 01

  I know that kid's out there and I know that that kid is taking strength from what I do next. So therefore

• 1:29:32Speaker 01

  that's all the strength I need to maintain it. In that if I fall off, I let that kid down.

• 1:29:39Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:29:40Speaker 01

  You know, and I could have saved the life there.

• 1:29:45Speaker 01

  And that's, I I I think when you've you've got a very dysfunctional family, there's this internal battle that sort of goes on where you're like, you've got to let go of people.

• 1:29:54Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:29:54Speaker 01

  And you're like, am I not loving, have I have I gone cold? There's a song called Prisoner and I talk about it, I'm saying I'm afraid that I've gone cold. And that's the question I'm sort of asking myself, sort of writing like my diary in in this particular song. And in asking yourself that question,

• 1:30:14Speaker 01

  you have to look at your relationship to human beings in general, because I'm really willing to cut people off, man.

• 1:30:23Speaker 01

  Like if regardless to the title of an individual, to preserve my inner peace, I'll really let go, man. I don't care who you are, what it is. If you're not gonna take accountability and you're gonna lie and be disrespectful or whatever it is, I'm I'm gonna leave you over there. I'm just gonna keep walking my own journey.

• 1:30:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:30:48Speaker 01

  When you then look at your relationship to human beings and you meet an individual that is accountable or from a dysfunctional background, but he's trained. And that's where you see what what's going on in your heart. And it it turns out that there's lots of love in my heart.

• 1:31:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:31:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, and and actually I'm more open than I than I thought I was. I'm just triggered by people that have the same traits, similar traits to the ones that I was sort of brought up, exposed to, and sort of firsthand witnessed the destruction that comes with how them people are.

• 1:31:28Speaker 00

  Do you know why I think that is? Uh, so there's a a a type of illness called SARS, chronic inflammatory response syndrome. And if you live in a house that's got um toxins, biotoxins in like mold and microbes, your immune system begins to learn that that's a threat. It's slowly over time breaking your immune system down. And chronic inflammatory response syndrome means that if you ever get re-exposed to that kind of environment, almost immediately your immune system switches on. It's like a warning alarm. This is familiar and dangerous.

• 1:32:05Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:32:06Speaker 00

  And it's an immediate response. So if you have SARS and you walk into a building, even if you've been out of a toxic environment for twelve months, let's say, you walk into a house that's got mold spores in it, similar to the ones that you were exposed to in the past. Your neck will go red, you'll be inflamed, you'll get a ringing in your ears, you'll get brain fog, you might feel sick. You might, lots of things happen. Immediately this thing switches on. And I think what's happening there is your body has learned that a very familiar but dangerous kind of pathogen

• 1:32:40Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:32:40Speaker 00

  is around.

• 1:32:41Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:32:42Speaker 00

  And I think that this is somewhat similar to what you're seeing here, which is,

• 1:32:47Speaker 00

  I know that archetype, I know that kind of person.

• 1:32:52Speaker 00

  I understand the mentality, the background, the worldview.

• 1:32:57Speaker 00

  And there is a psychological immune system that kicks in, which goes, if I spend too much time around this person, I might go back there. I don't think that it's fully conscious, but I certainly see it myself. There are patterns from my childhood.

• 1:33:12Speaker 00

  People that I spent time around, um, lessons that I learned or observed, people that I saw in the modes of behavior. I'm like, that was imprinted so deep into the source code of who I am that I do not want that in my life. I don't want his relationship with gambling. I don't want the way that he cheats on his wife. I don't want his lack of care for his kids. I don't want the fact that he uses alcohol in order to be able to deal with his problems. And any time that I see something that sometimes isn't even that, I like incorrectly pattern match in the same way as chronic inflammatory response syndrome. You can go into a building and it's one one thousandth or one one hundredth of the dosage that you were exposed to previously.

• 1:33:53Speaker 00

  But immediately the immune system switches on because it's looking for this thing that was maybe a killer that maybe could have taken your life down a path or your immune system or your health down a path that you really didn't want it to go in. And this is kind of the same, which is I see in this person somewhere or in this relationship or in this dynamic or whatever, I see a world that I really, really don't want to be a part of. And it feels familiar to me in a way where my psychological immune system is kicked on to go get the fuck away from this as quickly as possible.

• 1:34:27Speaker 01

  Interesting point, right? Because there's two versions of events there. Okay, and what you're talking about with the the inflammatory response is the sort of the body's like airbags, you know, in a in a car, the car crashes and the airbags come out. And you're talking about them airbags sort of prematurely.

• 1:34:47Speaker 00

  Yes, yes.

• 1:34:48Speaker 01

  Sort of alerting and and coming out.

• 1:34:50Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:34:52Speaker 01

  So in within sort of the healing process, there is a phase where prematurely airbags come out and it's like, oh no.

• 1:35:02Speaker 01

  As you become, the more you become a man, the more you you're making decisions essentially. You're looking at a situation, you're weighing it up for what it is and the impact it can potentially have and you're initiating healthy boundaries.

• 1:35:20Speaker 00

  Hmm. You're not responding uh impulsively.

• 1:35:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:35:25Speaker 00

  Uh, there's a degree of intuition, but it's uh cultivated intuition, refined.

• 1:35:31Speaker 01

  There you go, yeah. And and at that point, you're just making decisions as opposed to just being triggered and there's a triggered response.

• 1:35:41Speaker 00

  Or as opposed to having permeable boundaries so malleable and floppy that you never actually end up standing up for yourself.

• 1:35:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:48Speaker 00

  Or when you were young, being so inexperienced that you weren't able to see the pattern that you should have been aware of. You didn't know what a microbe was. You didn't understand what a moldy house smelt like.

• 1:35:58Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:35:58Speaker 00

  So you go from ignorance to awareness to reactivity. And then finally to discernment, maybe, something like that.

• 1:36:08Speaker 01

  The word would probably be responsibility. You're responsible in the decisions that you make.

• 1:36:12Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:36:13Speaker 01

  You can see what it is that you're walking into and you decide to walk away. You decide to let it go. So like some of them people, them individuals you spoke about, a gambler or, you know, I've I've been around guys that cheat on their partners. And you have to make a decision in that in that moment because there's eighty percent of that person's character that is up your street, this is my kind of guy.

• 1:36:39Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:36:40Speaker 01

  But at the point that he cheats on his partner, it's like, and as a human being, you can't be judgmental, right? Because we all come from dysfunction. However, when you become the person that

• 1:36:54Speaker 01

  you see yourself being, you gotta make decisions, man. And some things you gotta take a step away from. You know, so it's it's it's um it's honesty, really. I think it's authenticity. I think, again, it comes down to love. How am I supposed to look that guy's partner in the eye if I have an understanding that he goes and cheats on his missus?

• 1:37:17Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:37:18Speaker 01

  You know, how how am I supposed to trust what he's saying to me if he goes home and lies to his to his best friend?

• 1:37:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, I mean,

• 1:37:31Speaker 00

  unfortunately, it's one of the things I don't think people fully realize about gossip. That uh everyone likes gossip in one form or another, right? Even if you know that you shouldn't, until you realize that you've been seduced by it. You're like, oh, is that some information about something behind the scenes that could be quite interesting or cool or a little bit like venting and gossipy?

• 1:37:50Speaker 00

  But one of the things that people who gossip a lot don't realize is that even if the person they're gossiping about doesn't find out,

• 1:37:58Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:37:58Speaker 00

  the person that they're gossiping to is taught a really interesting lesson.

• 1:38:02Speaker 01

  Oh, they found out.

• 1:38:04Speaker 00

  That you are the sort of person that talks behind people's backs.

• 1:38:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then you get the types of people that won't do that for that reason. Or you get the types of people that don't do it because it's just against their moral code.

• 1:38:18Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 1:38:19Speaker 01

  That's that's that's who you wanna be. They're the people that are, they're the people I gravitate towards. Their morals and their principles. I like being around them people because they're accountable, they're responsible. Now, by the way, I have been an unaccountable and unresponsible individual.

• 1:38:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:38:37Speaker 01

  And that is the nature of growing up. That's a part of the journey. So I don't sit here as somebody that's like

• 1:38:44Speaker 01

  um perfect and always been perfect, you know, I I sit here with somebody on the journey, you know, but but taking it serious.

• 1:38:53Speaker 00

  There's a letter from Sigmund Freud to Carl Jung, the letter that he wrote him. One of the lines in it says, one day, in retrospect, the years of struggle will strike you as most beautiful. The years of struggle will strike you as most beautiful. And I think that it's just such a gorgeous reflection on what most people realize, but only in retrospect. Unfortunately, when you're going through it, eating shit, unsure whether or not you're going to be able to get out, tarnished, doubtful, in pity.

• 1:39:31Speaker 00

  How can you say that this is beautiful? And yet, when you look back, the years of struggle are the ones where you go, oh, that was it. That was where I was forging myself.

• 1:39:42Speaker 01

  I think the key is to be present, is to try and see the beauty in the

• 1:39:50Speaker 01

  in the darkness, you know, in the midst of the tunnel, in the midst of the chaos, understanding that there's there's beauty within it. And it's a tough place to be. It's a tough place to be.

• 1:40:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:40:04Speaker 01

  But there does come a point where you've just been through so much that you sort of know now that this is my path, so I might as well accept it. And this this will pass, you know? I will get through this.

• 1:40:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:40:22Speaker 01

  One way or another. So you you start to admire the fact that that is the beauty of life, man. You know, I've had some, I've had some really dark situations. Um,

• 1:40:36Speaker 01

  and like I said before, the the the time when I questioned God, I've had darker situations where I've not questioned God and I've just understood that like, this is it, this is how it's supposed to be right now. And I'm sure I'll come back stronger. And I've been right and I have come back stronger.

• 1:40:56Speaker 01

  So, yeah.

• 1:41:00Speaker 00

  When we most uncertain.

• 1:41:04Speaker 01

  When you're not uncertain, man. I think in times when I felt the most certain, it's been fabricated. It's because I'm leaning on these crutches, these friends that you're talking about that like, believing in you more than you do and all that, like, that'll create a false sense of security. I think the whole way through,

• 1:41:27Speaker 01

  these just moments where you're just like, you know, and

• 1:41:33Speaker 01

  I think the most uncertain I've been

• 1:41:37Speaker 01

  is when I'm losing trust in my own mind, my own ability to control my impulses. And I'm making decisions that are out of my right mind. It's like, I wouldn't do a thing like that. You know, or I wouldn't become addicted to doing anything like that. You know, there was a time where earlier in the, in, in, in my life, when I was exposed to violence on a quite a regular basis. And some pretty bad things had happened to me. I was taking

• 1:42:11Speaker 01

  um,

• 1:42:14Speaker 01

  I'm, I'm gonna say joy in sort of inflicting pain. And it's just with some, being somebody that's interested in fitness, it's just one, one of the vices that sort of fit with me. So I'd have a friend that I'd have trouble with an individual and I'd take it upon myself to rectify this situation.

• 1:42:37Speaker 00

  Same retribution.

• 1:42:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I think, and again, like, honestly, brother, like, you sort of grow up. My, my, my stepdad beat me up when I was eleven and it had a profound effect on me.

• 1:42:47Speaker 00

  One particular time did?

• 1:42:50Speaker 01

  You know, yeah, but and it has a, it has a profound effect that you, it's not until you grow, you become adult and you look back at your life and you're like, now I understand why I was interested in just being a nuisance. You know, and it's because that's what you're taught and you, you know that it hurt. But it also felt embarrassing.

• 1:43:14Speaker 00

  How much of it was the pain and how much was the humiliation?

• 1:43:17Speaker 01

  It's a part and parcel, right? And you wanna inflict that onto other people. So that feeling that you feel after being physically violated and left on the floor or whatever, when you see somebody else in that situation, you think, deal with it, I did.

• 1:43:34Speaker 01

  Don't cry, what are you crying for? I didn't, you know, so there was, there was a there was a phase in life where, you know, and all that's part of, part and parcel of thinking you're gonna be a criminal for, for a living, makes you a handy guy to have around. Cause it's a, a thing that you, um, you're at the time enjoying and then you sort of tap back into

• 1:44:00Speaker 01

  the true version of who you are. And you realize that

• 1:44:06Speaker 01

  that's something that life, if I wasn't careful, was gonna do to me. Life was gonna make me that individual. Do you understand that I had to snap out of that? And I had to realize, actually, I'm not like that. I'm a loving, kind, caring, respectful person. That's something I've, I've felt like I had to become in order to keep myself protected in the environment that I was in. This comes back to make it. Some of these environments that unfortunately having no money will leave you in, you will be exposed to

• 1:44:41Speaker 01

  dark things. And you will have to become a version of yourself to deal with them dark things that when you mature, you just won't be able to stand by. You know, and if you're not careful, you take it over the top. And I met a lot of them individuals in, in jail. And they've done dark things and you can see that the maturing out of that mindset now. But what's done is done. And you've got fourteen years in this place. You know, so the, the whole thing is a process of healing, man, healing, man. And only now are people starting to talk about, I mean, now I'm, people starting to talk about sort of men addressing their emotions or what they've been through and

• 1:45:24Speaker 01

  I was, I was talking about this from the get go because my, my original mixtapes were me sort of quitting boxing, coming to terms with quitting boxing and coming to terms with being depressed. You know, and, and sad and down. And, and what I started to do was look at everything that I've been through. Um, just from a perspective of, you know, do you know what? That is sad. That happened. It's sad. It's okay to feel sad about it. I don't have to snap and get angry and just accept and move forward. You know, and, and actually, as I look back through that process, I've, I've built an incredible life for myself, man. I've, I've done really good.

• 1:46:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, man, you know, I'm, I'm a young man, I'm, I'm single. I'm in a position where I know I can protect a family.

• 1:46:19Speaker 01

  You understand? I know I can pick a country in the world that I wanna live. I can design a house exactly how I would like for it to be. And I can protect a, a wife and children. And it just gives me a security and, and I can look after myself, you know, and it just, it just gives me, that is all I think any of us really want. Give or take, you know, and, and and, and, and in that being said, that's what I'm trying to touch on in this album is the, is the getting to that place. I don't think the numbers are important. I think once you're financially secure, financially free, financially free is the word, freedom.

• 1:47:03Speaker 01

  Once you've got to that point, who cares if that's a hundred million, fifty million or a million, half a million, whatever makes you free. Once you're there, you're there. You've got to be content with your position. Once you know you can sort of look after a family. Move on and, and enjoy your life, maintain it.

• 1:47:24Speaker 00

  It's interesting, there's a a variety of different levels of freedom. And one of them is, you've heard of fuck you money, right?

• 1:47:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:47:34Speaker 00

  So fuck you money means maybe you don't need to work for anybody. You don't need to listen to a boss in the same way. You are liberated from having to worry about how much something's going to cost. That's one type of saying fuck you. Another way of saying fuck you is fuck you freedom and fuck you freedom. Maybe you live off the grid or maybe you're able to move to another country where you can design your lifestyle in a different kind of a way. Maybe you've got your own cows and, and sheep and goats and chickens and you're self-sufficient, right? There's a kind of, uh, even the local council, the power grid, sort of, you're not even, you've got solar panels, you're completely prepped and off the grid in that way. But

• 1:48:16Speaker 00

  there's a third kind of saying fuck you that I think is much more attainable for a lot of people. And that's a fuck you family. And that is no longer needing the validation of anyone. Like, yeah, maybe you're not reliant on a boss to tell you when to go to work. Maybe you're not reliant on the power grid or the local food supplier to give you whatever. But something that's much more attainable for a lot of people, I think, is to reach escape velocity from being judged or needing the validation of other people by knowing that the people that you care about most think that you kind of can fly, that you can levitate, that you can lift the world up. And even if the rest of the universe is falling down around you,

• 1:49:01Speaker 00

  the person sleeping next to you in bed and the two people sleeping ten feet above you in the same house think that you're a superhero. And I think that that is a kind of liberation that I see a lot of men when they become fathers achieving, that throws into quite harsh contrast. The way that they were trying to gain liberation and freedom and sovereignty and recognition previously. It makes the, the games that they were playing, like, probably quite shallow and desperate. Look at my need for performance. Like I'm jumping in the air, like, look at me, look at me, look over here, like, look at how cool I am and how much I can do. And they didn't know that the right woman and the right kids.

• 1:49:45Speaker 01

  The bigger picture, right?

• 1:49:47Speaker 00

  Is everything. It's all of the fuel that they needed. And I think it probably in a bit of a smirky way, makes them look at that version of themselves as like kind of a kid. You were jumping up and down, performing for all of these people. It was cool or whatever. But really what you needed was this unit.

• 1:50:09Speaker 01

  So, so I say, why not have all three? Right? And I, I can only speak from the perspective of, of a, a young man. But without fuck you money, you can't get fuck you freedom, not the real kind.

• 1:50:25Speaker 01

  And if you're not careful, the fuck you family will turn around and say fuck you. If you ain't got you, yourself in, you know, if you, if you're not functional and if you've not got yourself together. So therefore, I guess that is the sort of philosophy I'm talking about. But in order to say fuck you,

• 1:50:47Speaker 01

  you need all bases covered. So you're gonna need some money. How much that is, you can figure that out for your particular set of circumstances.

• 1:50:57Speaker 01

  The money will buy the fuck you freedom, you know, and also buy the protection of your family. The freedom of you, you being able to sort of connect, build relationship. Um, and then your family won't turn around and say fuck you. If you've developed the, the sort of functionality to, to be a man.

• 1:51:17Speaker 00

  So that's the, that's the interesting thing that keeps coming up here. And I think it's because you've spent so much time thinking about the psychology, where you've come from, how the human mind works, what human nature is, that when people talk, especially men, especially young men that are aspirational and have ambitions, when they talk about building a kingdom. The kingdom that they're talking about a lot of the time is quite shallow. It, it, it, it's materialistic, it's, it's physical. And these things, as you say, important and maybe even sort of the bottom of the pyramid of let's get yourself sorted first, make sure that you're safe and secure and you've got the surroundings.

• 1:51:59Speaker 00

  But the kingdom that I think matters much more is the emotional one. How much work have you done on yourself? How safe and secure are you as a vessel, not you as a supplier of resources? Yeah, that's important, but I think increasingly to me, I am far more impressed by men who have built a kingdom of psychological security on top of one of financial security. I'd much, much, much, much rather be friends with somebody who is one one hundredth as rich and wealthy and famous and statusful, but has got a cathedral of psychological stability than one who is unbelievably

• 1:52:43Speaker 00

  acclaimed, but just sort of left it there and didn't go any deeper.

• 1:52:49Speaker 01

  Well, the um, the external reflects the internal, you know? You know them by their fruits, you know? What's going on inside a person is will be reflected on the outside. So you see that in a man's physique. You see that in the way that he sort of conducts himself, the things he's acquired, the places he's trying to go, um, which essentially means that the journey is always an internal journey.

• 1:53:23Speaker 01

  And there's no getting around that. And that is, that's, that's work that involves solitude. So sometimes I see people that surround themselves with people. Cause that's what the, the isolation journey will do to you, right? It'll make you think, have I become unsociable? Have I lost the ability to make and retain friendships? And then you sort of, you can see within some friendships that like, ah, you've not got comfortable with walking your journey of isolation by yourself to become the strongest version of yourself. And you're clinging on to these people for validation and a sense of belonging.

• 1:54:06Speaker 01

  And little do you know, you'd be more, far more valuable to that friendship group if you just went through your challenges, man. Embrace the, the solitude, embrace the, the isolation, come out on the other side. So again, I just, I do, I just think it's an, an internal journey that one's taken seriously and, and taken, you, then you come out as a man that can serve. I think, I think people have forgotten what, what a man's job is. I think sort of being around, um, Guy Ritchie exposed that to me and just witnessing certain conversations and having conversations with him. I don't know, because I just think that he's, um, somebody that's, um,

• 1:54:51Speaker 01

  a philosopher, really. That's why we like his films. That's why we like the dialogue of his movies. But who that person is behind closed doors is, um,

• 1:55:04Speaker 01

  an honest man and a devoted husband and a devoted father. And, um, and also someone that's very human, that's come up through all of the levels, you know? I mean, you hear what a person like that has actually got to say as a much younger man. It just has a funny way of seeping into your bones, man. And, and you just sort of understand that, like, again, you have to be just ruthlessly sort of accountable and, and responsible. And then you sort of remember that as a man, it's your, it's your job to serve, man.

• 1:55:42Speaker 01

  I take, I, I take joy in, um, in helping out, if that makes sense. Do you know what I mean? If I can, I've got a young fan called Oliver. He's, um, he's autistic. He's, he's, he's, dad's in jail or was. And for me to be helpful towards an individual like that, I, I take joy from that. You know, I've been in situations where something crazy is going on and I, I can offer a woman in that moment, some sort of, um, protection.

• 1:56:23Speaker 01

  They're the moments that, that I think is like masculine nature. That's, that's like a part of me that, um, I take joy from. I see, I see some people that take joy from like spending money or, you know? A lot of the money I've spent as, as to been, been to reinvest into my brand, which was a rap brand. Big part of rap is the perception. So you've got to give them proof of income. Um, but really behind all of that, I'm quite a simple, a simple guy, man. And, and in that, as a man, I like to, I feel like I like to do my job, if that makes sense.

• 1:57:04Speaker 00

  How do you square rapping about having a hurricane and a wraith that are in the same colors?

• 1:57:11Speaker 00

  While also telling young people that money isn't the point?

• 1:57:15Speaker 01

  I think that you have a brand like mine, you better, you better get financially free, man. And if you're going to be financially free, and you, and you're young enough to be brash and, and for it to be acceptable in, in any way, shape or form, then, then demonstrate, you know? I, I've done this independently. I own, I own the rights to all my music. That's one thing, right? But then you've got to run the record label yourself. You've got to employ the people. At one point, the outgoings of, of, of the, of the business, it was somewhere like 1.3 million on, on

• 1:57:59Speaker 01

  staff along as a rapper.

• 1:58:05Speaker 01

  Or on her, who's doing it? Who's taking on all that extra stress? So you're building a thing independently. And if you're going to do that and you're going to take that path, you've got to show proof of income. Like it's going well. It's possible. You're showing guys coming into the business like, by the way, you, you can do this in a way where you're not just relying on an industry to make it happen. You know? So that being said, that was that sort of part and parcel with the job description I taken on.

• 1:58:40Speaker 01

  However, you take me out of that job description and I'm really a simple guy, man.

• 1:58:47Speaker 01

  I'm really a simple guy. I come from humble beginnings, man. I come from a house with no, no carpet and, and floorboards and, you know?

• 1:58:59Speaker 01

  I really don't need much. And that's the truth of who I am behind it all. But if you're going to be a rapper and, you know, being poor will really do something to you, man. I've been guilty of being a real show off. And I was like that from I first started to acquire money just as a young man. You know, I'd buy a little superbike and, and turn up at the party showing off like it was something that I had to sort of humble myself in that regard. But again, it's the, it's a journey. It's a journey, man.

• 1:59:31Speaker 00

  Is there a line of yours that you wish more people paid attention to?

• 1:59:38Speaker 00

  From the new album, one that you think people might overlook or from past work?

• 1:59:45Speaker 01

  Um, I, I think a mindset, I think there's a mindset that's overlooked. But in the times that I've, I'm always taught, I'm always going on about Vincent Van Gogh, man. I bore myself sometimes, but you know what? That's the truth. I'm a bit of a boring guy. Why? Because that's where progression lies in repetition, man. So the things that I've studied, I've studied them over and over and over again, until I've taken the gems out of them situations. The reason people want to learn off successful people is because they don't want to go and do the repetition that's needed. Anyway, so one of the things I, um, sort of understood is the sort of hinge factor in, in Van Gogh's legacy, which is what it is, let's, let's have it right.

• 2:00:31Speaker 01

  Some of his work is nearly priceless at this point. And he was trying to sell work, the work wouldn't sell. He dies, then his brother goes on to die. And his brother had a wife called Jo. And Jo put the letters between Vincent and his brother Theo out into the world. And when people understood the mindset and the philosophy behind Vincent Van Gogh's thinking and the fact that his literature was probably as beautiful as his artwork, that's what made the paintings there. Okay? So the more that I grow and the more that I'm courageous enough to articulate what I'm actually thinking

• 2:01:13Speaker 01

  as somebody that comes from a very complex background, that sort of identified with being a, a villain at one point, but has also been exposed to sophisticated people and, and sort of took that on. When, when people really get an, an idea of my thinking, then they'll go back and listen to what I was saying in retrospect, right? And there's a film called Eternity's Gate. It's about Van Gogh. You may not have seen it. And there's a point in that, in that film where Van Gogh goes to Saint Remy's Hospital. And in them days, it was like a mental asylum. And what you would do is you would go and see a priest.

• 2:01:55Speaker 01

  The priest would come and see you to, to figure out whether you was copas menace or not. And they would do that by your orientation in faith, in God, your belief. And, um, Van Gogh, his, his parents happened to be like pastors and religion or something he knew like the back of his hand. So then when the, the priest, the priest holds up some of his work and he says, you, you think God made you a, a painter to, to paint this? And what he was saying is your work's ugly, right? It's different. Monet and some of the big painters in France, they was making money from painting like realism. And, you know, all the real, but the, the, the camera was going to come and destroy that little trend.

• 2:02:39Speaker 01

  What Van Gogh had made was from his essence, right?

• 2:02:44Speaker 01

  And what Van Gogh says is, he says, sometimes I feel like God's made a mistake. And he says, sometimes I feel like God made me a painter for people that haven't yet been born.

• 2:03:00Speaker 01

  And when, and when I understood that, I understood that as an artist.

• 2:03:07Speaker 01

  The influence that I am having on people might not be for right now. It might be long after I am gone. So it's my job to do my best work and be humble enough to accept the fact that people might not be able to see what I'm doing. They might not be able to see all of the layers of the painting and the works of art that I'm putting out. But that doesn't mean that I become lazy. Because it's gonna go over people's heads and people might ignore it. Because it's in the world forever. As Vincent van Gogh's paintings are in the world forever. And that's why they go up in value. You know, because the more you understand his philosophy and his thinking and his outlook on the world

• 2:03:52Speaker 01

  as somebody that was experiencing a really sort of rough go of it. He was sort of closer to reality. Yeah, and you can't get, you can't escape reality. So you will always go back and you will always refer back. You know, that's, that's something that had a profound impact on me. And that's what I've tried to do with this album. I've disconnected from feedback, validation. I've just made it. I've tried to make it more musical.

• 2:04:20Speaker 01

  These layers and I've thrown it out there. With part two, I've not really even verbalized this, but with, with part two. I'll, I'll be getting on with my life at that point. I'll make it and I won't be promoting it as a rapper. Because I won't be a rapper at that point. I'll be a husband and a father. So I'll make it and I'll throw it out into the world for people that are following the trail that I've sort of left out there.

• 2:04:47Speaker 01

  You know, and, and that'll be that. And at that point, acting will have either taken off and I'm supposed to be a more famous person or I'm not. At this point, I've let go. You know, they say to let go and let God. I've, I've, I've sort of got the things that I wanted in life. And now I'm sort of revisiting faith and understanding my purpose. What am I here to do? How am I here to help? How can I serve? How can I help? And if that means that I'm supposed to be more famous, then so be it. If that means I'm, I get to be less famous, you know, and I get, get my privacy back and, and freedom.

• 2:05:29Speaker 01

  Then so be it. Both times round, I'll be doing things that I'm, I'm proud of, that I can stand by, that like you say, my children can, can be proud of. You know, so

• 2:05:47Speaker 01

  that's my outlook on that.

• 2:05:49Speaker 00

  Bugzy Malone, ladies and gentlemen. Dude, you rule. I appreciate the fuck out of you. Where should people go to keep up to date with what's going on?

• 2:05:56Speaker 01

  I mean, look, the, the album comes out Friday. So it'll be out by the time this is out. It's called Make It Maintain It, Part One. It's my best work. And The Gentleman, Season Three will come out at some point. I, I'm giving that my all. I, I shaved my hair off and everyone's like, why has he shaved his hair off? It's because I'm giving the acting game everything I've got. So I'm looking a bit different.

• 2:06:20Speaker 00

  Day in, ten kilos, shaved your head.

• 2:06:22Speaker 01

  You know, I'm serious about it. I'd like, it's a job description I'd like. I was lucky enough to be in a film with Jason Statham. And I, and I seen his job description. I seen the way he conducted himself as a man. And it's, it's a job description I'd like. So I'm, I'm marching in that direction. And that being said, I'm, I'm I'm around, you know, and I appreciate you having me on again.

• 2:06:48Speaker 00

  I appreciate you more, man. Until next time. Goodbye, my beauties. Dude, yes.

• 2:07:02Speaker 00

  Hey, a quick note. One thing that we've been told by a lot of our subscribers is that on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and YouTube, they've been unsubscribed or unfollowed even though they pressed it. So just do me a favor and check below. If that has happened, it's happening to a lot of people, means that you get to find out about episodes before anybody else. And it supports the show and makes me very happy indeed. Just give it a little check, give it a little tap. All will be well. I thank you.