Matt Willis: I No Longer Hate Myself

GET TICKETS TO THE LIVE TOUR HERE: https://www.livenation.co.uk/joe-marler-will-see-you-live-tickets-adp1647830 Busted legend Matt Willis joins the surgery for an incredibly open conversation about addiction, self-belief and support networks. Matt talks about finding fame at 18, the fear behind Busted’s original break-up and how drink and drugs went from an escape to something he physically couldn’t function without. He also explains what 17 years of recovery has taught him, why gratitude remains part of his daily routine and the importance of building a life you no longer want to escape from. Plus, Joe discovers the origins of Year 3000, how Jonas Brothers paid his mortgage, and somehow ends up receiving more therapy than he gives. Featuring Joe Marler (@joemarler17) and Jake Bhardwaj (@jakebhardwajtv) Follow the show on Instagram: @willseeyounowshow Joe Marler Will See You Now is a Platform Media production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:24Speaker 01

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• 0:54Speaker 02

  This episode is brought to you by Tesco Kitchen. The YouTube series where big personalities and actually useful cooking tips come together. I was invited to join the brilliant Greg James and Seema Pankarnia for a bit of cooking chaos and an attempt at making the world's best kebabs. There were laughs, there was lamb, there were some genuinely brilliant tips, but most importantly, the kids actually approved. And it's not just Joe. Tesco Kitchen has had some brilliant guests through the doors, including Ed Gamble, Phil Wang and Bella Mackie. Head over to Tesco Kitchen YouTube channel after this podcast. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I can't type because I'm going to do the pod like this. Why are you doing the pod like that, Jake? I think, I know.

• 1:39Speaker 02

  I've lost my beard. You lost your beard? Lost my beard. Where's your beard gone? I don't know. I don't know, maybe it's somewhere. Do you know what? I imagine the beard's somewhere in the same place the Ross Kemp wig is. Reveal your face. I can't, I'm so ugly with it. Please reveal your face. You're not ugly.

• 1:57Speaker 02

  You are if you pout like that.

• 2:00Speaker 02

  You don't think that's good? Mate, you're not ugly. Suck the cheeks in a bit. Just shut your face, you're not ugly. Why have you not got a beard? Horrible histories, mate. It's the gift that keeps on giving. I had to play a young Austrian prince and... What, did he sound like? He sounded quite like this.

• 2:18Speaker 02

  I cannot wait. When was the last time you were beardless? Um, I don't know, man. A long time ago. I don't like it, I don't like it at all. Although, although producer Tom said I look a bit like James Dean.

• 2:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, sort of.

• 2:36Speaker 02

  It's still very much James Bean for me.

• 2:40Speaker 02

  Very good stuff. For those of you just tuning into this episode, it's because I look like Asian Mr Bean in this suit. More so now. I can have one in 10, can't I? Oh, God. One in 10, lads. Had a bit of a... I haven't seen you since last Friday, have I? You know, I'm doing this Joe Lysit show. Yeah, the pub stuff. I'm just riding the coattails of anyone called Joe. Good. Yeah. Calzaghe's on the phone. I can't wait to see that one. Biscuali? No, I can't. And we basically did this, so the show is set in a pub. Joe Lysit, the Lysit Arms it's called. The Lysit Arms, yeah. It's basically a real, it's a set, but it's a real working pub. Like, the taps are going, they encourage people to get a drink while they're watching the show.

• 3:25Speaker 02

  So I host this bit right at the end. Episode five, if you can see this happen in this play out, because it's live, it's live TV, and I'm not, you know, I'm new to all this. So I've got three minutes at the end of the show to host this game. I've got Joe Lysit and this contestant from a neighbouring pub to the left of me. To the right of me, I've got Ryland Clark, Maisie Adam, Lara Ricotti and Stephen Libby from last series of The Traitors, all with their mouths closed because the game is, you've got to guess which one of them has not got a pickled egg in their mouth. There's a lot going on. I then say, right, Joe versus this contestant. You've got to guess which one of these celebs has not got a pickled egg in their mouth. Are you ready? Here we go. And this woman in her 60s? I'm just trying to set the scene, like, she comes, she just walks straight into the

• 4:08Speaker 02

  shot, so between me and the camera here, walks straight in, pint in hand and goes, "I'm really sorry, but it's a pickled egg, a quiz." "I don't think so." And I was like, "I don't know what to do here, I don't know what to do here." And she's like, "No, I'm sorry, this is a real quick..." Joe's laughing, Ryland Clark's about to spit the egg out, and my friend Matt, who's a producer, he basically had to say, "Okay, we're going to have to just escort you off." So he escorts her to sit, still in the vicinity of what's going on. And I'm like, "Okay, well, she's on, but we're going to get her back later." She's trying to riff with it. And apparently Matt's sat with her and she's sort of like swaying a bit, and she turns to him and goes,

• 4:42Speaker 02

  "I'm going to do it again."

• 4:45Speaker 02

  And he's like, "No, please don't do it again." "It's the booze, I've got to do it again." You don't have to do it again. She did it again, she ran in and she was like, "I'm sorry, but it's..." But then Ryland took her under her wing and then she joined them for the final song of the show. It wasn't a bit? No, no, no, no, no, no, no. It was all, it was all like, yeah, yeah. It was just a random drunk woman? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's wild. Oh, God. Anyway, how's your week been?

• 5:11Speaker 02

  I don't know what to say to that, mate. Well, you've got some news, mister. Have I? Yeah. Sunday Times bestseller, by the way. Sure. Come on. Come on. Do not applaud that. God, someone in here is clapping a lot more in rhythm than usual. I think we might have a musician in the building.

• 5:29Speaker 02

  Mate, I don't get it, because it was ninth. Yeah, that's in the top 10, isn't it? Surely the best is the number one. Oh, that's the sportsman in you coming out, mate. People who write books, they're not as competitive, I think. They think, "Oh, I came number nine, that's brilliant." I'm not taking it back, what I just said, because that's how I feel. In the sense of, I didn't do it to go, "Oh, I hope I get into the top 10." I did it because I loved doing the book with my mate Tom, who some people think is you.

• 6:00Speaker 02

  And some people think Tom is your Tom. Bless you. I saw you on The One Show talking about your book. Yeah, she got it wrong. And then she said, "Oh, and you're going on tour with the guy you wrote it with." He said, "No, no, that's Jake." And then I think in your head, you must have had the story about me being called Luke for the first six months of my life. Yeah. And he said, "Oh, no, that's Jake, but he was called Tom." He was called, I mean, he was called Luke. And then she said, "What are you on about?" And that's enough time. We've got to, we've got to go off to see some candle making in Warwickshire. I was doing book promo, but I was like, "Oh, I want to do tour promo." And then I had you and the Jake-Luke story in my head from doing Emmet's episode. So, "Oh, when can I get that out?" And then it just came at the end and I went, "I don't think The One Show's for me, is it?"

• 6:42Speaker 02

  And I got the impression from everyone in the room, they also felt the same. The One Show is not for that guy, okay? Don't book him again.

• 6:55Speaker 02

  How was James Blunt? He was beautiful. Yeah? Uh, very nice. Oh, yeah, mate, he was beautiful, he was beautiful. He wouldn't be my favourite musician, though. Nice, nice link, very nice link. I think my favourite musician... Maybe we should do this as live TV, because we are, we don't need an edit, we've got the links in perfectly. He's only your favourite musician. I think my favourite musician, or one of, could be, could be making his way into said chair. Definitely my favourite musician we've had on the show. This is someone who's ingrained into my sort of formative years. Yeah, is it like what you went to school for? Very nice, very... I think I'll be listening to his music till the year 3000. Okay, cool. Enough, enough now. Are you ready? Four. Matt Willis.

• 7:40Speaker 02

  Matt Willis, everybody! How do you think Janet and Matt are getting on? She likes a bad boy? She does like a bad boy, she likes a bit of rough. Yeah. Rough, rough stuff. She'd love Shakespeare.

• 7:56Speaker 02

  Maybe he's been calling her at 3am.

• 8:00Speaker 02

  I don't, can't stress enough, I maybe know some more deeper cuts of the Busted stuff than you do, I think. Yeah, well, you've had less knocks to the head, so we'll allow a little bit of leeway. Shall we get him in before me and you start going at it? I mean, going at each other? Going at each other? Janet, get Matt in, I'm really worried me and Jake might have sex.

• 8:20Speaker 02

  Get him in now. I meant at each other. Get him in now, I can't control what's happening here!

• 8:28Speaker 02

  Oh, fuck it. Janet, send Matt Willis in! Not Matt Willie, no!

• 8:36Speaker 02

  Send Matt Willis in, Willie in trousers!

• 8:41Speaker 02

  You still there? Yeah, yeah, no, please send Matt Willis in, but give it, just give it two minutes, I've just got to compose myself. Okay.

• 8:53Speaker 02

  Matt Willis, everybody! Hello.

• 9:27Speaker 03

  Mate, come on, come here.

• 9:28Jake Bhardwaj?

  Yes, yes. Yes, that's lovely.

• 9:31Speaker 03

  That's really nice, do you know what?

• 9:32Jake Bhardwaj?

  Lovely cuddle.

• 9:33Speaker 03

  Do you know what, I'm gonna settle in.

• 9:34Jake Bhardwaj?

  Do you do that when you, if you take your breath in?

• 9:40Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 9:41Jake Bhardwaj?

  And you just sort of lose yourself in the, in the cuddler.

• 9:44Speaker 03

  Do you know what, I felt your whole body relaxed.

• 9:46Jake Bhardwaj?

  Yeah.

• 9:47Speaker 03

  I mean, when is this, when is that too much?

• 9:49Jake Bhardwaj?

  Do you know what I mean?

• 9:50Speaker 03

  I felt, I felt just the right moment.

• 9:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, the erection.

• 9:53Speaker 03

  It was lovely.

• 9:53Speaker 02

  The erection, yeah, I felt that and I was like, probably time to move.

• 9:56Jake Bhardwaj?

  That's too far, too far. Um, this is Jake.

• 9:59Speaker 03

  Hi Jake.

• 10:00Jake Bhardwaj?

  Lovely research.

• 10:01Speaker 03

  Mate, what's happened? There's something missing.

• 10:03Speaker 02

  You didn't, you didn't know that I had something there, did you?

• 10:06Speaker 03

  I did, I did, I did, um, I've watched a few episodes, mate.

• 10:09Speaker 02

  Oh, well, do you know what, that's made up for me feeling a bit rubbish about not having the beard. I don't like not having a beard, I've, I've had one since, I've had something going on since I was about nineteen. And now it's gone, cause I'm doing, um, I'm doing horrible histories at the moment.

• 10:23Speaker 03

  Are you?

• 10:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I'm running around playing different sort of people from history.

• 10:27Speaker 03

  A child.

• 10:28Speaker 02

  And they said, it's not accurate, what did you say?

• 10:30Speaker 03

  A child.

• 10:31Speaker 02

  A child.

• 10:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm playing a child, so I had to.

• 10:32Speaker 02

  They said, they said it's not accurate for him, um, to have a beard, I said, well, I'm Indian, but, um, yeah. I'm Indian playing, I'm Indian playing an Austrian prince, what are you gonna do? Do you have to, is that accurate? But it's fine, it's fine.

• 10:44Speaker 03

  It's all good.

• 10:45Jake Bhardwaj?

  And the fun starts with an intake questionnaire.

• 10:47Speaker 03

  Fantastic.

• 10:48Jake Bhardwaj?

  As we, as we always do, um.

• 10:49Speaker 03

  What anno, what is annoying after watching it is that they're always different.

• 10:53Jake Bhardwaj?

  Hmm.

• 10:53Speaker 03

  Cause I thought, right, okay.

• 10:54Jake Bhardwaj?

  You could come up with the right answers.

• 10:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly.

• 10:56Speaker 02

  You can't revise, you never know what, you can't revise for this. After naming star sign, you're out on your own.

• 11:00Speaker 03

  You're out on your own, okay.

• 11:02Jake Bhardwaj?

  Okay, well, full name?

• 11:05Speaker 03

  Matthew James Willis.

• 11:08Jake Bhardwaj?

  So three names.

• 11:09Speaker 03

  Three names, full, you asked for full.

• 11:11Jake Bhardwaj?

  Star sign.

• 11:12Speaker 03

  I'm a Taurus.

• 11:14Jake Bhardwaj?

  Hmm.

• 11:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 11:16Speaker 02

  What was that you just said?

• 11:20Jake Bhardwaj?

  What was that?

• 11:20Speaker 03

  That was, that was my Taurus noise.

• 11:22Jake Bhardwaj?

  Hmm.

• 11:23Speaker 03

  Well, you, mate, you, you are a bull.

• 11:26Jake Bhardwaj?

  I'm a bull?

• 11:27Speaker 03

  I'm, I'm more of a calf in this situation.

• 11:31Jake Bhardwaj?

  What is your occupation?

• 11:35Speaker 03

  I'd say musician, actor, professional oversharer.

• 11:42Jake Bhardwaj?

  Um, favourite busted song?

• 11:45Speaker 03

  Favourite busted song? Um, I'd say at the moment, it's Thunderbirds I'll Go.

• 11:53Jake Bhardwaj?

  Hmm.

• 11:53Speaker 03

  Which has changed.

• 11:54Jake Bhardwaj?

  What?

• 11:55Speaker 03

  Because I used to really hate that song, but now I love it.

• 11:58Jake Bhardwaj?

  Why, why, why have you fallen back in love with that song?

• 12:00Speaker 03

  Cause it's really fun to play and really fun to perform, I love it.

• 12:06Jake Bhardwaj?

  Least favourite McFly song?

• 12:08Speaker 03

  Ooh, there's a few.

• 12:12Speaker 03

  I think, I really, It's All About You, that song.

• 12:17Jake Bhardwaj?

  Really?

• 12:18Speaker 03

  It's all, it's so.

• 12:19Jake Bhardwaj?

  Quite samey, isn't it?

• 12:20Speaker 03

  It's just like. I mean, we did McBusted, right? And like, it was like, we'd play busted songs, it was rad, then we'd have to change speed. Play a bu, play a bu.

• 12:33Jake Bhardwaj?

  Could you not like busted them up?

• 12:36Speaker 03

  Um, I mean, we tried, we tried a few times, but unsuccessfully.

• 12:40Jake Bhardwaj?

  Okay.

• 12:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm being nasty, I do love those boys.

• 12:43Jake Bhardwaj?

  What's something that scares you?

• 12:46Speaker 03

  I don't really like horses.

• 12:50Speaker 03

  I'm not, I wouldn't say I'm terrified of them, but being in close proximity to one is a bit weird.

• 12:56Jake Bhardwaj?

  The, the back end?

• 12:57Speaker 03

  Well, yeah.

• 12:58Jake Bhardwaj?

  There's always that fear that they're gonna kick out, I always get scared walking behind a horse.

• 13:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, and, yeah, I know what you mean, but also I remember watching a movie called Freddy Got Fingered. And, and you see the horse's cock and it's enormous and it's just a bit intimidating.

• 13:11Speaker 02

  Hmm, you don't have to suck it off.

• 13:14Speaker 03

  You don't?

• 13:17Jake Bhardwaj?

  Now I'm not scared anymore, okay, great.

• 13:21Jake Bhardwaj?

  What's your career goal?

• 13:24Speaker 03

  Um.

• 13:27Speaker 03

  I don't think I have one, I don't think I have a career goal.

• 13:31Jake Bhardwaj?

  No.

• 13:32Speaker 03

  Mate, the older the, I get, the less ambitious I am, I'm kinda cool, I'm happy.

• 13:36Speaker 02

  You've done loads of stuff, to be fair.

• 13:37Speaker 03

  I'm kinda like, you know what, I'm lucky to be here.

• 13:41Jake Bhardwaj?

  You're content.

• 13:42Speaker 03

  I'm content, I'm all right, yeah. I mean, not to get cancelled is, is kind of a daily one.

• 13:49Jake Bhardwaj?

  Yeah.

• 13:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 13:50Jake Bhardwaj?

  Tell me about it.

• 13:51Speaker 03

  Is it, do you worry about that?

• 13:52Jake Bhardwaj?

  Oh, yeah.

• 13:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:52Jake Bhardwaj?

  Especially working with Jake.

• 13:55Jake Bhardwaj?

  He really puts me under the pressure sometimes, don't you?

• 13:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was just, it keeps us on our toes.

• 13:59Speaker 03

  It's, it's remembering, he can get away with certain things you can't.

• 14:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 14:03Speaker 03

  Exactly that, it's like, just cause he's been, it doesn't mean you can't.

• 14:06Speaker 02

  All the clean shaven stuff.

• 14:07Speaker 03

  I have that, I have that.

• 14:12Jake Bhardwaj?

  If your wife Emma had to describe you in a sentence, what would it be?

• 14:17Speaker 03

  Um, well, she used to call me fifty percent Willis, which is, um, because I'd always do fifty percent of a job.

• 14:24Jake Bhardwaj?

  Right.

• 14:25Speaker 03

  You know, like, she'd say, you, you, you have the best intentions, but you can't ever follow through.

• 14:29Jake Bhardwaj?

  Half cocked.

• 14:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, half cocked, yeah, would she describe me as half cocked? I don't know, it's not a nice thing for your wife to describe you as.

• 14:38Jake Bhardwaj?

  I didn't mean it like that.

• 14:39Speaker 03

  Half a cock Willis.

• 14:40Speaker 02

  Matt walking past a horse, lucky bastard.

• 14:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:46Jake Bhardwaj?

  That's not what I meant, I didn't mean it about your actual genitalia, it's rare, it's rare we talk about.

• 14:51Speaker 03

  Explain then, explain.

• 14:52Jake Bhardwaj?

  Well, half cock means, oh, you're doing something half cocked, don't you?

• 14:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, well, that was very, that was, that was, that was me.

• 14:58Jake Bhardwaj?

  But that's what she used to describe her, fifty percent Willis.

• 15:02Speaker 03

  Better at kind of like, right, okay.

• 15:03Jake Bhardwaj?

  You're eighty percent now.

• 15:04Speaker 03

  I'm, I'm, I'd say seventy five.

• 15:06Jake Bhardwaj?

  You're seventy five percent Willis.

• 15:07Speaker 03

  Seventy five percent Willis, yeah.

• 15:09Jake Bhardwaj?

  What's one thing that Matt Willis is really fucking good at?

• 15:13Speaker 03

  Matt Willis is really fucking good at? Um, well, I'd say jumping.

• 15:21Jake Bhardwaj?

  Hmm.

• 15:22Speaker 03

  Um, I've had quite a bit of experience at jumping, I, um, I, I'm, I'm feeling that in my knees these days. But I've, I have to wear sensible shoes on stage now.

• 15:33Jake Bhardwaj?

  What's a sensible shoe look like?

• 15:35Speaker 03

  A trainer.

• 15:36Jake Bhardwaj?

  Oh, like?

• 15:36Speaker 03

  You know, I've learned the hard way, DMs are not gonna do me any favors anymore. So, um, so now I have to wear running shoes on stage.

• 15:46Jake Bhardwaj?

  In jeans?

• 15:46Speaker 03

  To protect my knees.

• 15:48Jake Bhardwaj?

  Schnins?

• 15:48Speaker 03

  Well, now I've learned that jeans, it doesn't look very good on stage, so now I wear trousers with a, with a, with a, with a running shoe.

• 15:55Jake Bhardwaj?

  Okay, I mean, I'm not one to judge, you're, you're rock and roll, baby.

• 15:59Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 16:00Jake Bhardwaj?

  I'm sitting here in a tree jacket and a pair of shorts.

• 16:03Speaker 03

  I'm very glad you're wearing shorts, though.

• 16:05Jake Bhardwaj?

  Why?

• 16:05Speaker 03

  I don't know, it's just like, it's you, isn't it? I like it.

• 16:08Jake Bhardwaj?

  Rank these acts in order of criminal severity.

• 16:12Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 16:13Jake Bhardwaj?

  A, crashing someone else's wedding. B, climbing a tree to spy on your hot teacher. C, distracting an air hostess, endangering the lives of hundreds on board.

• 16:29Speaker 03

  Well, I don't think you endanger the lives of hundreds on board by distracting an air hostess.

• 16:36Speaker 03

  They just serve you drinks, don't they?

• 16:37Speaker 02

  Yeah. She's, she's the main member of staff on the aircraft to talk to, really, isn't she?

• 16:42Speaker 03

  She's the most important one, exactly, yeah.

• 16:44Jake Bhardwaj?

  So you're putting that one as a three?

• 16:45Speaker 03

  I'm putting that one as a three.

• 16:46Jake Bhardwaj?

  Okay.

• 16:47Speaker 03

  I mean, I'd say crashing someone else's wedding ain't that bad, do you know what, a couple of years ago.

• 16:52Jake Bhardwaj?

  Crashing someone else's wedding that you've not been invited to?

• 16:55Speaker 03

  I've done it a couple of times.

• 16:55Jake Bhardwaj?

  Have you?

• 16:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, we've been in various hotels after shows and, um, and we've walked through like people at a wedding party.

• 17:04Jake Bhardwaj?

  Yeah.

• 17:04Speaker 03

  And they've just dragged us in, you know, cause they're like, oh my God, you know, and I'm like wicked.

• 17:10Jake Bhardwaj?

  Free party.

• 17:10Speaker 03

  Free party.

• 17:11Jake Bhardwaj?

  Let's go.

• 17:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, free party.

• 17:12Jake Bhardwaj?

  Yeah.

• 17:13Speaker 03

  So, um, so that's all right.

• 17:14Jake Bhardwaj?

  Um, okay, do you consent to being analysed by someone who's not a real doctor?

• 17:18Speaker 03

  Absolutely, yeah.

• 17:20Jake Bhardwaj?

  We're getting quite a good strike rate now, aren't we?

• 17:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 17:23Jake Bhardwaj?

  We've only had, what, three that said no, that we haven't put out?

• 17:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, sure.

• 17:29Jake Bhardwaj?

  Said no, and then we just say, thank you, have a great day.

• 17:32Speaker 03

  Thanks very much, thanks for coming all the way here. Yeah.

• 17:34Jake Bhardwaj?

  So let's, let's do this, let's begin.

• 17:36Speaker 03

  I'm well up for it, let's do it.

• 17:40Jake Bhardwaj?

  Right, Matt, you spent most of your life as part of something.

• 17:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 17:43Jake Bhardwaj?

  You're a third of busted.

• 17:44Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 17:44Jake Bhardwaj?

  A seventh of McBusted.

• 17:46Speaker 03

  Correct.

• 17:47Jake Bhardwaj?

  Um, half of Matt and Emma.

• 17:49Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 17:50Jake Bhardwaj?

  Your husband.

• 17:51Speaker 03

  I am.

• 17:51Jake Bhardwaj?

  A dad and a bandmate.

• 17:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 17:54Jake Bhardwaj?

  In your new book, you openly speak about people around you giving you the love and stability you've needed when you've struggled.

• 18:01Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 18:02Jake Bhardwaj?

  But there's one person whose support you've often found it hard to rely on, and that's yourself.

• 18:11Jake Bhardwaj?

  That's quite.

• 18:11Speaker 03

  That hit me, that was quite beautiful, yeah.

• 18:15Jake Bhardwaj?

  And I want you to find some hope that today we might be able to help you.

• 18:24Jake Bhardwaj?

  Get rid of that inner critic and build a little bit more self-belief.

• 18:29Speaker 03

  Great.

• 18:29Jake Bhardwaj?

  Sounds quite cryptic, but.

• 18:30Speaker 03

  It does sound quite cryptic, and, and much more intense than I expected this to be.

• 18:34Jake Bhardwaj?

  I think we can work it.

• 18:35Speaker 03

  But I like it.

• 18:39Jake Bhardwaj?

  Right, before Busted.

• 18:40Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 18:41Jake Bhardwaj?

  Like, what were you like as a kid? What was, what was Matt Willis like growing up?

• 18:46Speaker 03

  What's I like growing up? Um, I mean, I was always kind of in some sort of trouble. Um, never really like really awful, like not prison worthy or anything, but like I was always kind of up to something. You know, yeah.

• 19:01Jake Bhardwaj?

  Like a naughty, just cheeky or just?

• 19:03Speaker 03

  Slightly cheeky, naughty, you know, but like, I, I, I think I found that because I, I felt a bit insecure at school. I was never very good at school and I was always kind of put in special groups that I couldn't read very well or I couldn't spell and I, um, I couldn't sit still and I'd cause naughtiness in the classroom.

• 19:21Jake Bhardwaj?

  You weren't academic?

• 19:22Speaker 03

  I was not academic.

• 19:23Jake Bhardwaj?

  Was there anything that you did like, like so, I wasn't, I was half decent academic.

• 19:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 19:28Jake Bhardwaj?

  But I couldn't ever really concentrate on any of it. So I'd end up being, put in isolation or being one of the naughty kids or in, in different things, even though I was capable.

• 19:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 19:39Jake Bhardwaj?

  I just couldn't really focus unless it was sport. For me, sport, I was like, that's my thing. It was sport and drama. That was the only stuff that I went, oh, I'm in on this. I'll give full concentration. I'll think it. Wha- what about you? Were you into, was music big for you as well or?

• 19:55Speaker 03

  Music was big for me. I mean, from an early age, I kind of found that like that was the one thing that I could get rewarded for. You know, I was quite good at being a show off.

• 20:04Jake Bhardwaj?

  Hmm.

• 20:04Speaker 03

  Um, in any kind of way, anywhere there's a chance to kind of stand in front of people and go, I'd be quite up for that.

• 20:11Jake Bhardwaj?

  Hmm.

• 20:12Speaker 03

  But, um, sport was definitely not the one for me. I learned from a very early age that nothing but ridicule and shame would come from me in that ball. So, so I stayed as far away from it as possible.

• 20:23Jake Bhardwaj?

  So that music that you touched on, at what point did it then start becoming something that you were like, oh, I want to take this more seriously?

• 20:32Speaker 03

  Um, I mean, that happened when I went to, I got a scholarship to Sylvia Young Theatre School and that changed my life. But before then, it was like my mum, we'd go to caravan parks and there'd be a talent show and she'd always make me do it. Like every time, because if you win, you win a free week back at the caravan park.

• 20:51Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 20:53Speaker 02

  I thought this was a story about one mother's belief in her son.

• 20:56Speaker 03

  No, we just, we just, we just wanted to go to finals week to get a free holiday. So, um, and we were there, one of those sun holidays that you cut things out anyway. So, um, so we'd, so I'd have to go in these talent shows. And, um, and she, she picked the song, she picked my outfit. I'd do, um, Sandy from Grease in like a T-Birds coat, which would, uh, which went well for a couple of years.

• 21:16Jake Bhardwaj?

  Hmm.

• 21:17Speaker 03

  And then it went to Love Is All Around by Wet Wet Wex, a big hit at the time.

• 21:20Jake Bhardwaj?

  Hmm.

• 21:20Speaker 03

  And, um, and I'd sing those, but I did, I did win, you know, every time. So I was like, um, I'm, I'm, I'm all right at this, but I didn't really care.

• 21:31Jake Bhardwaj?

  What age did you go get the scholarship to Sylvia?

• 21:34Speaker 03

  I was fourteen, I was fourteen.

• 21:36Jake Bhardwaj?

  And was that when you started to go, oh, I could make something of this, I could?

• 21:41Speaker 03

  It's not, yeah, I mean, it kind of, it, it really changed my life. I mean, and, and I got in, I got that scholarship because of that caravan park performance. Like someone at the caravan park saw me sing and was like, they worked at Sylvia Young and they were like, you should go for this, um, scholarship that's happening. I was like, all right. I didn't really know anything about it. So we, we rocked up there and ended up getting in. And, um, and it was, it was honestly the most like different place I'd ever been in my life. From like a normal school, you can imagine, to kids kind of pirouetting and singing Les Mis. You know, I was like, this is a very different place, you know, and, um, but it really kind of changed something in me. I, I mean, I was in class with,

• 22:21Speaker 03

  um, Billy Piper was in my class, right? And she, um, she was suddenly not sat next to me. Like, I was like, where's Billy gone? They were like, oh, she signed a record deal. She's going to be a pop star.

• 22:32Jake Bhardwaj?

  How old was she?

• 22:33Speaker 03

  Fifteen.

• 22:33Jake Bhardwaj?

  Whoa.

• 22:34Speaker 03

  I was like, what? Like, that's possible. Right. So then she came out, she was huge. I was like, so it kind of made me go, oh, there's, there's more to this life than I've, than I've seen a possibility of, you know? And, um, and it kind of did make me go, I could have a go at this.

• 22:49Speaker 02

  When you started at the school, did all the, you know, you're saying like the, the, the messing around or getting up to stuff outside of school, did that stop? Or were you still sort of getting into bits and bobs?

• 22:57Speaker 03

  Still doing all that, but, um, but, but they.

• 22:59Speaker 02

  What were the sorts of, what were the sorts of sort of scrapes you were?

• 23:02Speaker 03

  Well, I was always, um, I mean, the biggest thing at Sylvia's for me was smoking. Like that was kind of like, I'd always get caught with cigarettes on me and I'd smoke in the toilet and I'd get caught and it'd be, you know, sent home and stuff like that. And they, um, and then when I left the school, when I was sixteen and I kind of did my GCSEs, the woman who worked, um, in the, she was like the school nurse, matron, um, she was amazing.

• 23:26Jake Bhardwaj?

  Yeah.

• 23:26Speaker 03

  She gave me a carrier bag filled of all the cigarettes they'd taken off me. And there was like a hundred packets of fags in there. Yeah. So I was, I had a right result.

• 23:39Speaker 03

  Sounds great.

• 23:40Speaker 02

  Joe, when did you, when did you start? Cause you started like your career, your rugby, the rugby stuff around the same time or earlier? When, when did you start?

• 23:47Jake Bhardwaj?

  I moved out when I was sixteen. And, uh, got my first contract when I was seven, yeah, sixteen, seventeen.

• 23:55Speaker 02

  Getting paid to do rugby?

• 23:57Jake Bhardwaj?

  I was getting paid, paid to do rugby.

• 23:59Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 24:00Jake Bhardwaj?

  I can't imagine, well, hang on, I, I want to compare this actually. When I got my first paycheck at sixteen, seventeen, I've still got it at home. I was like, oh my God, I am, I'm loaded. And it was four hundred and seventeen pound for the month.

• 24:18Speaker 02

  For the month?

• 24:19Jake Bhardwaj?

  For the month. And I was like, I'm in it. And I spent it all in a week.

• 24:24Speaker 03

  Right.

• 24:24Jake Bhardwaj?

  And then I had to keep asking for it in advance for the next month. Cause I was like, oh my God, I've got so much money. I'm seventy, I've got four hundred quid coming in. And saying that out loud to you, who was a member of Busted at eighteen and you'd exploded like that.

• 24:38Speaker 03

  Well, we signed deals first, like before we kind of, um, did anything, we kind of signed a record deal and a publishing deal for songwriting.

• 24:44Jake Bhardwaj?

  Yeah.

• 24:45Speaker 03

  So my first paycheck was ****. And I'd never had more than like sixty quid in my bank ever.

• 24:51Jake Bhardwaj?

  But that's the, the.

• 24:52Speaker 03

  I was like, fucking, here we go. Here we go.

• 24:55Jake Bhardwaj?

  What I wanted to ask you about, cause I was like, I've got four hundred quid in my pocket here. This is most I've ever had this year.

• 25:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, man.

• 25:01Jake Bhardwaj?

  And I think I'm Billy Big Balls going out O'Shaughnessy in Kingston going, yeah, let's fucking go, let's do this. What did that do to you as an eighteen year old when you've got that amount of money in your pocket? You're like?

• 25:11Speaker 03

  It, it didn't really kind of like dawn on me what, what that amount of money meant. Like I've done shit jobs. I worked for like Thames Water and, cut grass and stuff. And like occasionally I'd have like two hundred quid in my bank, you know, but that was kind of the most. So like, this was an unfathomable ma- amount of money. But I literally, I, I had an accountant straight away and I just gave it all to them. And was like, can you pay me a little bit of money every week, please?

• 25:37Speaker 02

  That is so smart. What eighteen year old thinks like that? Were you guided to, to do that?

• 25:41Speaker 03

  I had a bit of a taste for drugs at the time as well. So I was, I was a bit worried, am I spend it all? So I was like, I was like, you can't allow me to have this money. So, um, so from an early age, I had someone kind of like, um,

• 25:52Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 25:53Speaker 03

  Paying me a wage.

• 25:54Speaker 02

  Did, did they?

• 25:55Speaker 03

  Charlie, on the other hand, has spunked everything, you know?

• 26:00Speaker 02

  Was it, was there a particular song that led to that massive deal?

• 26:04Speaker 03

  Well, we'd written the whole first album, but me and James had, had, before Charlie joined the band, we, me and James had been trying to get signed. Like we'd been to a few record companies, just the two of us and no one was interested. And we had the whole album written with those same songs. And then no one would, we looked like two really weird kids rocking there. There was some like four track demos. But then, um, then we got Charlie involved, walked in there with a very handsome front man and.

• 26:31Jake Bhardwaj?

  How, how did you, how did you meet Charlie?

• 26:33Speaker 03

  We auditioned him in. We held an audition, put an advert in the NME and he turned up and, um, and walked in and we were like, yes, you can be in our band. I remember it so well. And he walked in, he was massive. And, um, and I was like, he looks amazing. Please be able to play guitar.

• 26:50Jake Bhardwaj?

  Yeah.

• 26:50Speaker 03

  And he played guitar, started playing, he was amazing. And he sang. I was like, this is fucking amazing. And, um, and I, I didn't know whether or not he'd want to be in it, you know, he was, he looked too cool for us in a way, you know, but, um, he was well up for it.

• 27:03Jake Bhardwaj?

  What were you like, your big best memories from that time as being as big as you were?

• 27:08Speaker 03

  Um, I mean, I'll never forget the first video shoot. Like turning up to the what I got a school for video shoot was like, I couldn't, I couldn't believe it. There was trucks filled with shit. Like lights and not actual shit, like filled with.

• 27:21Jake Bhardwaj?

  Not, I, I really, I really appreciate you.

• 27:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 27:24Jake Bhardwaj?

  Clarifying for me.

• 27:26Speaker 03

  No, there wasn't.

• 27:26Jake Bhardwaj?

  That wasn't a truck of shit.

• 27:27Speaker 03

  It wasn't that, that kind of video.

• 27:28Jake Bhardwaj?

  Actual shit.

• 27:29Speaker 02

  Wasn't a fly video.

• 27:34Speaker 03

  Um, yeah, trucks filled with lights and there was like hundreds of extras and I was like, wow, this is like, felt like being on a movie set, you know, and it was all for our song, which was like, I felt well important. Yeah, it was like, right, we have arrived, let's go.

• 27:49Jake Bhardwaj?

  Mate, it says that the Jonas Brothers changed the lyrics of your song.

• 27:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, two of the songs. They covered Year Three Thousand and What I Got Outta School For.

• 27:59Jake Bhardwaj?

  And they changed both sets of lyrics?

• 28:01Speaker 03

  I think they changed the lyric in What I Got Outta School For, I don't remember, but they were signed to Disney. Do you remember like they had the purity rings and they were very clean cut?

• 28:08Jake Bhardwaj?

  What's a purity ring?

• 28:09Speaker 03

  I mean, I don't know, it's like some Christian thing, I think, that proves that they're still virgins.

• 28:13Speaker 02

  We call them virgin rings, mate.

• 28:14Speaker 03

  Virgin rings.

• 28:15Speaker 02

  Frigid rings.

• 28:16Speaker 03

  Frigid rings.

• 28:17Speaker 02

  So I've got, I've got some, I've got some examples.

• 28:19Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 28:20Speaker 02

  They changed, um, uh, your great, great, great granddaughter's pretty fine to doing fine.

• 28:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 28:25Speaker 02

  She's doing fine. Yeah, she's all right. Uh, they changed, um, uh, the great lyric, triple-breasted women swim around town totally naked. That's what you're into, Matt. Um, they changed that to girls there with round hair like Star Wars float above the floor.

• 28:40Speaker 03

  It's so bad.

• 28:41Speaker 02

  It's just very, yeah.

• 28:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's so bad.

• 28:43Jake Bhardwaj?

  Did it annoy you that they changed?

• 28:46Speaker 03

  Um, I remember seeing an email go like, um, come to me about those changes. And Busted had broken up, like, we weren't using that song. And basically, the whole thing happens, we were, we were like, set up to break in America and Charlie left the band. So like this whole kind of campaign they kind of built around Busted, they just went, oh, let's put that to the Jonas Brothers. And then, and they even gave them the two songs, they, they asked up a mission. And I was like, great. Um.

• 29:16Jake Bhardwaj?

  Because, did you end up still getting paid off the?

• 29:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, we wrote the song, so we were gonna get publishing for it. And, um, and we, and I, we, and I, I said they can, they can have the changes to lyrics, they just can't have any publishing on it. Um, because you wanna change it, not us.

• 29:30Jake Bhardwaj?

  Yeah.

• 29:30Speaker 03

  And so they were like, fine. So they didn't get any writing on it, but they changed the lyric. And, um, and to me, I didn't know anything about Jonas Brothers until I got a royalty check in and was like, oh, what is going on here?

• 29:41Jake Bhardwaj?

  Yeah.

• 29:42Speaker 03

  Um, and they blew up, they kind of broke off that song, so it was, um, it was good for everyone. They paid my mortgage for four years. Thank you very much. Jonas Brothers. Love them.

• 29:51Speaker 02

  You were just about, so that everything was in place to do America, but I didn't know that was the timing of it with Charlie leaving the band.

• 29:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, we kind of, we did this, we did this big thing, like, we kind of, um, we had these plans to go to America, um, and the band was slowly kind of unraveling. And we did this, oh god, if I mention it, people are gonna watch it, but we did this reality show in America called America or Busted, which was, um, a learning experience, shall we say. And, um, and it was the final nail in the coffin for Charlie, who was like, get me out of here. So we, um, so he, he, he left and then it kind of all fell apart. So, um, um, yeah.

• 30:28Speaker 02

  What were the aspects of it that he was saying, you, you only say final nail in the coffin, what were the other aspects of that leading to it?

• 30:33Speaker 03

  Well, I think he was quite unhappy at the time in the band anyway. Like, I don't think, I know he was, like, he was really miserable. Like, Charlie joined this band that we'd, we'd wrote these songs and made these like little quite raw demos of and kind of, um, and he joined this band expecting us, I think, to be a British Bling One Eight Two, and then we were on the front cover of Smash Hits and, you know, and doing photo shoots with bunny rabbits. And he was just like, this is not for me.

• 30:59Jake Bhardwaj?

  He wasn't into it.

• 31:00Speaker 03

  He wasn't into it. Still not very into that part of it, I think Charlie isn't. Oh, I love it. More bunnies, the better. Bring them on.

• 31:09Speaker 02

  Was there any conversation of you and James being like, right, let's, how, how does this work, the two of us?

• 31:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, we, me and James had those chats. Um, but for me, it was, it was never an option. Like, I, I think I remembered going to these record companies with the two of us and being kind of laughed out the door. And it was like, and then we got Charlie and everything happened. So I was like, you remove him, he's the one that's on the cover of all the magazines, people love him. You know, I was like, we're nothing without him, you know, so I was, I was very much, um, I was the one who said, I don't think we should carry on. Also, I never wa, I always remember there was loads of bands who kind of lost a member and they were never quite the same again. You know what I mean? Like, it's very rare that that happens and bands go on to be bigger and better.

• 31:54Jake Bhardwaj?

  When you said you were the one who sort of drove, oh, we shouldn't carry on, actually, it doesn't feel right, was that out of you genuinely thought you shouldn't carry on for the right reasons? Or did you think, oh, it's not gonna be, it was almost like, I'm gonna control, if it doesn't go well, you, you're scared that it doesn't go well and then you have to own that, rather than, do you know what I'm trying to say? That actually, I'm gonna get ahead of it.

• 32:17Speaker 03

  You're, you're, you're bang on.

• 32:19Jake Bhardwaj?

  And not give it a chance, because it could have ended, you could have found someone else and gone, actually, we carried on exploding.

• 32:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, you're very right. I never thought about it like that. But yeah, it was through fear, like, I was scared of kind of like, our lights, we, I, I was like, let's end on a high, let's not go down. You know, and, um, and also I was probably looking for a bit of a way out myself. It was pretty chaotic, it was pretty, um, um, I was in a bit of a dark place and it was, um, it was, things were escalating for me. So I think it was kind of like, I was like, let's, let's, let's stop.

• 32:51Jake Bhardwaj?

  For me, I'm listening to you talk about that moment where you go, oh, actually, I was, I was struggling. You talk about it so well, as if you understood what you were going through or understood in the moment.

• 33:02Speaker 03

  Oh, no, I didn't.

• 33:02Jake Bhardwaj?

  You sound, you sound like, you sound so mature, you were so mature.

• 33:07Speaker 03

  Oh, no, I was far, I was far from it. Like, I didn't know what was going on. All I knew was that I was, I had a serious pro, well, did I even know I had serious problems at the time? No, probably not. You know, I was kind of dealing with loads of stuff and kind of trying to hide away. But on the outside, kind of, um, performing this kind of like, doesn't give a fuck, you know, like, rock and roll lifestyle on the front cover of Smash Hits, you know, and it's like, you know, so it's, with, with the bunnies, you know, so it's, um, it was a very weird place, you know, but, um, I think I was trying to kind of escape it all in some way as well, because I wasn't dealing very well with it.

• 33:44Jake Bhardwaj?

  Do you think, had you not signed that record deal, had you not like, made it big in Busted when you're eighteen?

• 33:51Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 33:52Jake Bhardwaj?

  You were destined to go down that dark route? Or did Busted actually add more fuel to the fire and actually push you in that direction more and made you struggle even more?

• 34:03Speaker 03

  Well, I think, um, like, when I think about my behaviour before, like, it was always like that. Like, I, I'd never drunk like anyone else. Like, my mates would drink, I would always take it further.

• 34:15Jake Bhardwaj?

  Always in excess.

• 34:16Speaker 03

  Always in excess. My mates would take drugs, I would always do it in excess, you know, so like, everything I did, when it came to that, I had no off switch. I, I could never stop. And I wasn't really, like, even when I think back to early kind of times with that, I wasn't like looking for, I was looking for fun and escape, but I was always looking for oblivion. You know, I was always kind of chasing that kind of like, if I do that much, then it all goes boom, you know, I was kind of, I liked that feeling.

• 34:42Jake Bhardwaj?

  Why?

• 34:43Speaker 03

  I don't know, I was, I think I was unhappy. I mean, I was just, um, trying to escape from feeling like me, you know, from a really early age. I mean, I remember that, like, I was talking about in the book, when I was about seven or eight, um, I, I remember having to have loads of appointments with the doctors about my asthma, because it was getting progressively worse. And what was happening was I was underneath my covers at night and I'd take my ventilator and just go

• 35:08Speaker 03

  and hold it in, and it made my head go wom, wom, wom. And it wasn't like a good high, like, I've had some good highs in my time, that was not one of them, you know, but it changed the way I felt. And I liked it, so I did it every night, you know, before I went to bed. So I think that was in me from a really early age. So what, what I think the band did was that it gave me money to be able to carry on the party, whereas before I'd have to stop because I'd run out of cash, you know, and it kind of allow, and I think it's also, I gravitated towards a job that that was okay to do in. You know, like, if I turned up for a photo shoot at ten in the morning and I was drinking, it was kind of like, oh, Matt's doing, you know, right.

• 35:50Jake Bhardwaj?

  Everyone did it.

• 35:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's like, everyone did it. When, actually, no, they didn't. I just did it, you know, but I thought it was okay, it was acceptable.

• 35:57Jake Bhardwaj?

  What, what was the moment then for you?

• 36:01Jake Bhardwaj?

  Or was it the band breaking up? What was the moment for you personally that you went, fuck, I'm in trouble here? Like, I need, I need to go and sort my shit out or

• 36:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:11Jake Bhardwaj?

  I'm not gonna be here anymore.

• 36:12Speaker 03

  There was a few times when that happened, but there was a few moments where I was like, I'm, I've taken it too far, I could potentially, you know, die right now. There was a few of those moments. And then when I tried to stop, I think, um, that was when it became apparent that I couldn't. You know, when I couldn't stop, because like, at times when I, when I tried to stop, I'd have a seizure and wake up covered in stuff and like, be like, what's happened here? And that's because I tried not to drink that day or whatever. And then, so I had to keep, I was physically dependent on it, which, um, which shocked me, you know, because I thought I could stop whenever I want, I haven't got a problem. But then when, even when I tried, I couldn't. You know, um, so that was a big moment for me. Hmm.

• 36:56Jake Bhardwaj?

  How have you got to this point now where you can speak so openly and?

• 37:05Jake Bhardwaj?

  Like I said, like so from a place of maturity and understanding of it all.

• 37:12Speaker 03

  Well, I've had a lot of therapy. I've had a lot of work on it. But I think, I think um I had to. You know, like there was, there was periods of my life where I couldn't um make it to twelve o'clock. Couldn't like, I couldn't do anything. I couldn't um, I couldn't function as a human in the world without a drink or a drug in my body. You know, and um, and so I, and I didn't wanna behave like that anymore. So I, I did as I was told and I, I listened to people and I went to therapy and I went to meetings. And I listened to people who had got clean time and what they did. And then I looked into maybe why I did this, which I'm not, I, I, I, I could kind of probably go back into my childhood and go, maybe this, maybe that, maybe that. But I don't know. I think it was just in me.

• 37:55Speaker 03

  You know, and um, and I think it's, and I meet a lot of people like that who, who just go, it's in me from a young age. You know, this feeling of less than, this feeling of, you know, being uncomfortable in your own skin and, and, and drink, finding drinking drugs as a solution to that problem, which was my experience. It was like, it was like, I didn't. Drinking drugs ended, ended up being something I needed a solution from, but I did them because they solved something in me that was not right. You know, and they gave me something, you know, first to give it, then it take it away. It was my experience.

• 38:29Jake Bhardwaj?

  What, do you think that will always be in you? That feeling, that, that, that little voice in your head that's like, oh, maybe I do fancy a drink or maybe I do fancy a little bit. Do you know, and you'll always have to be fighting those demons?

• 38:44Speaker 03

  I mean, I don't hear that voice that much these days because I do certain things every day that stop it, I think.

• 38:50Jake Bhardwaj?

  What sort, what sort of stuff?

• 38:51Speaker 03

  Well, I talk to other addicts. Like, I think that's really important. Like, I talk to other people in recovery. I talk to um, I, I, I, I work a program and I kind of like, and I do that. And I have a little bit of time for myself every morning, which um, which I'm kind of protective over, which is like something where I do certain things every morning, which I, well, I think helped me.

• 39:10Jake Bhardwaj?

  Hmm.

• 39:10Speaker 03

  Um, I'm very big on gratitude because I can, um, I had someone the first time I went to rehab go pour me, pour me, pour me another drink. And I can fucking turn into that guy. You know, I can wake up on the wrong side of the bed. So I find that starting my day with things I'm grateful for, and I've done it every day since to this rehab. And I wake up every morning after I learn three things I'm grateful for. Even if I don't want to, you know, I do that and it changes my headspace.

• 39:37Jake Bhardwaj?

  Hmm.

• 39:37Speaker 03

  And then I do um, other things which kind of keep me a bit more afloat, you know.

• 39:42Jake Bhardwaj?

  Um, and why do you do them now? Why, not, not just to?

• 39:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:48Jake Bhardwaj?

  Keep the demons at bay, but why? Who are you doing it for? Are you doing it for you? Are you doing it for Emma? Like, who, who are you doing it for?

• 39:57Speaker 03

  All those things. Yeah, I'm doing it for all those things. Because um, without them, I, I mean, I've, I've I've had, I've had a lot of experience of my behaviour, you know, like um, and if I don't do these things, I become a fucking maniac, you know, and um, and I'm, and I ruin everything. And I'm really happy. And my life's great. And my family are happy and they like me, you know. And um, and these things mean a lot to me, you know. So it's like, it's, I, I never wanna let go of that. So I have to pay a bit more attention to certain things than other people. But you know what? The results are pretty cool. You know, I feel pretty at peace and chill

• 40:36Speaker 03

  when I do certain things and I don't find them hard, you know, and um, and I don't have to think about changing the way I feel. I'm, I'm able to sit in that a bit more these days.

• 40:47Jake Bhardwaj?

  I, I'm sorry if I kept asking or keep asking too many questions.

• 40:52Speaker 03

  No, that's why I'm here.

• 40:54Jake Bhardwaj?

  It's not, it's, I genuinely, it's not just

• 40:59Jake Bhardwaj?

  because you're here and it's great to get the messages out there and that like, it's also, I can hear so much of my own.

• 41:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 41:07Jake Bhardwaj?

  Demons.

• 41:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 41:08Jake Bhardwaj?

  In what you're saying. And I'm like, fuck, I wish I was at a place where I had more control. Like you, a sound that you've got and more discipline to stay on top of it and your why and your purpose and, and why you keep doing it as opposed to. And I've, and even you touched on the gratitude, writing down the thing. I went through a point where I was like, okay, I looked into that. I was like, okay, let's try that. And I'd do, I got a little notebook and I was doing it every night before bed. I was like, right, what am I grateful for? I wrote it down, blah, blah.

• 41:37Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 41:37Jake Bhardwaj?

  And then I try, and then something else comes into my head and I go, fucking hell, what's the point of doing that?

• 41:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 41:42Jake Bhardwaj?

  What's the point? I just fucking.

• 41:45Speaker 03

  Can I give you a piece of advice? Start your day with it.

• 41:47Jake Bhardwaj?

  Right.

• 41:47Speaker 03

  Um, it's, it's been a big thing for me, starting my day because otherwise my, and, and when I do it, um, my day goes better. And maybe I don't notice it at first. And it's kind of an accumulative effect with these things, right? Well, with anything, like with, um, no, I'm not super big on meditation. I've been through stages where I've really tried, but my head's a bit busy, right? So like, but this simple thing, two minutes a day, three things I'm grateful for, starting my day with, it can make my whole day better.

• 42:16Jake Bhardwaj?

  Hmm.

• 42:16Speaker 03

  You know, because my first interaction with my kids isn't shit because I've done it. Which doesn't make the second interaction with the first person I meet shit, because I feel guilty about my interaction with my kids and like, and it's just a kind of a cumulative thing during the day. And um, and some days I have shit days and I'm a prick. You know, and that's, and that's just part and parcel of being a human, I think, you know. But if I can do these things, things seem to be better.

• 42:40Jake Bhardwaj?

  I think I need to sit and listen to you more.

• 42:42Speaker 03

  Well, I've been looking forward to meeting you because I do see myself in you quite a bit.

• 42:46Jake Bhardwaj?

  Do you?

• 42:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, I do, I do, I do. I'm like, I think he's like me in a lot of ways.

• 42:51Jake Bhardwaj?

  What's this about um, mending that you wrote?

• 42:55Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 42:56Jake Bhardwaj?

  Years ago.

• 42:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 42:58Jake Bhardwaj?

  And you've actually taken loads of stuff out of it.

• 43:02Speaker 03

  Well, I've, I've condensed it.

• 43:03Jake Bhardwaj?

  Right.

• 43:04Speaker 03

  Like, well, I mean, I started this in my last trip to rehab, which was like, what, sixteen years ago or something? Yeah, sixteen, seventeen years ago I last went to rehab.

• 43:15Jake Bhardwaj?

  Hmm.

• 43:16Speaker 03

  Like, the first time I went, I've been quite a few times, right? And the first time I went, you're supposed to write your life story. But I knew I was leaving before I left to read it out, so I didn't bother. You know, I was like, I ain't fucking sticking around for four weeks, not a chance. So I, I, I didn't even start it. You know, I wrote like a couple of pages maybe. Then the next time I went, I wrote, I think you're supposed to write eight pieces of A four. I wrote four.

• 43:36Jake Bhardwaj?

  Hmm.

• 43:37Speaker 03

  And then the last time I went, I sat down and I couldn't stop. And I wrote like eighty pages of, you know, just mayhem. Um, but I enjoyed that process. Like, it was something quite therapeutic about it. And um, and so about four years ago, I started writing this book and it's sat on my desktop ever since. And probably took me about two years to finish it. And then I, I'm, basically I read it, some other people read it. And it was just um, it was all over the place. And it was kind of like full of, I don't know, the chaos and the, and the kind of like stuff in your head. And I think, um, and then this, then, then I put it to bed. I was like, I'm never gonna put this out because it's like, it's

• 44:22Jake Bhardwaj?

  nuts.

• 44:22Speaker 03

  Not very good. It's nuts. And so uh, a little while ago, I met with someone else and they read it and they were like, this is great. It's just all over the place. You need someone to help you.

• 44:31Jake Bhardwaj?

  Refine it.

• 44:32Speaker 03

  So um, so um, I got a publisher in who really helped me. And like, the editing process was amazing. And we kind of like, I had a reason why I wanted to do it. I was like, I know who I'm talking to here. And I'm talking to me who was in that madness. And who needs to see that you can, you don't have to live that way.

• 44:49Jake Bhardwaj?

  And how, how have you felt about, what was the feeling like actually putting it all together? Seeing it for the first time and then going, shit, I'm actually gonna put this out now? Was there a bit like?

• 45:01Speaker 03

  It's, it's a scary thing.

• 45:02Jake Bhardwaj?

  Shit my pants. I don't want it to be out there. Or do you, were you absolutely frightened?

• 45:06Speaker 03

  Well, I'm kind of ready for, to not have to think about it anymore. Do you know what I mean? Like, I'm like, it's been so in my head for the last like eighteen months.

• 45:14Jake Bhardwaj?

  Hmm.

• 45:15Speaker 03

  And um, and I'm ready for that not to be the case. I'm like, once it's out, it's kind of done. And it's other people's thing to read.

• 45:21Jake Bhardwaj?

  Yeah.

• 45:22Speaker 03

  You know, so um, uh, but it is scary. You know, there's a lot of stuff from my childhood which I'm, I'm a bit scared about talking about. But I think it's important to make sense of what happens next.

• 45:33Jake Bhardwaj?

  Hmm.

• 45:34Speaker 03

  Um, and that was, that was the biggest part I was gonna take out was all the kind of childhood stuff. And I was like, I kept it in because I think it might make the reader go, oh, I see why that is because of this, you know. And like, so you need these bits in.

• 45:49Jake Bhardwaj?

  Hmm.

• 45:49Speaker 03

  But it's um, it's scary to think that people are gonna read that and family are gonna read it and find out what I was up to and all that kind of stuff, you know. So it's a bit scary, but yeah.

• 46:03Speaker 02

  Time now for a new segment from Tesco Kitchen, the YouTube series where big personalities and actually useful cooking tips come together. Joe, you are neither an expert in psychology nor chefing, but that won't stop us from trying to combine the two. We're going to run a kitchen therapy session and help understand your kitchen mindset. Are you ready?

• 46:22Jake Bhardwaj?

  Let's go.

• 46:22Speaker 02

  Okay. I've got a few chef archetypes for you and I want you to sort of tell me which one you relate to the most, which one you are. So we've got the perfectionist. Okay, this is the sort of person who sets impossibly high goals of Michelin level food, feels like a failure if they miss the mark by any tiny margin. Okay? Like someone who just needs to get by the letter. Anything that's slightly off, they're just really hard on themselves.

• 46:46Jake Bhardwaj?

  Okay.

• 46:47Speaker 02

  Do you see yourself in that at all?

• 46:49Jake Bhardwaj?

  Keep going, I'm not drawn to it yet.

• 46:51Speaker 02

  I mean, how far are you? What's your cooking at its best and what's your cooking at its worst?

• 46:56Jake Bhardwaj?

  My best dish is an original carbonara.

• 47:01Speaker 02

  Go on.

• 47:01Jake Bhardwaj?

  So like the proper, I'll grate the cheese.

• 47:04Speaker 02

  Bit of cream, bit of ham.

• 47:05Jake Bhardwaj?

  No, what are you high?

• 47:07Speaker 02

  I'm kidding, I'm kidding, I know that's good. People get so passionate about the carbonara thing.

• 47:10Jake Bhardwaj?

  Because it's our traditional carbonara.

• 47:13Speaker 02

  I'm not doing it.

• 47:13Jake Bhardwaj?

  You just did it to me.

• 47:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, whatever. Talk to you about your traditional carbonara.

• 47:18Jake Bhardwaj?

  What I do with my carbonara is obviously you fry the pancetta, but I also fry really tiny chopped up chicken thigh. So it's not a tradition, it's traditional spin.

• 47:30Speaker 02

  I have to say.

• 47:31Jake Bhardwaj?

  With like a chicken thigh fusion.

• 47:33Speaker 02

  I'm sorry, but in terms of offending Italians on their cooking, chicken and pasta is apparently a cardinal sin.

• 47:40Jake Bhardwaj?

  What?

• 47:41Speaker 02

  Chicken and pasta.

• 47:42Jake Bhardwaj?

  The Vatican gets involved.

• 47:43Speaker 02

  The Vatican gets involved.

• 47:46Speaker 02

  Other fish to fry, lovely with pasta.

• 47:51Speaker 02

  Surely they've got bigger fish to fry, lovely with pasta.

• 47:56Jake Bhardwaj?

  One more.

• 47:57Speaker 02

  Surely they've got bigger fish to fry, lovely with pasta.

• 48:00Jake Bhardwaj?

  It's the best one.

• 48:01Speaker 02

  But yeah, chicken with pasta or chicken with pizza is a no, no, no, no, no, no. Or as they would say, no, no, no, no, no.

• 48:09Jake Bhardwaj?

  So they're just the same?

• 48:10Speaker 02

  Similar, yeah.

• 48:11Jake Bhardwaj?

  No, no, no, no, no. Well, my kids eat it, it's one of the only dishes they don't feed back with, it's troll food.

• 48:18Speaker 02

  So you're not perfectionist? What about these other two? There's the soloist, feels like asking for help in the kitchen is a sign of weakness and that true culinary brilliance means doing everything alone. I've got a little bit of this in me myself, yeah.

• 48:30Jake Bhardwaj?

  Now I'm starting to feel I can relate to this one. I don't like anyone in the kitchen when I'm doing it. I'm like, I have to be in there, in control and not anyone getting in my way. You know, you've got sharp tools, you've got hot pans.

• 48:45Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 48:46Jake Bhardwaj?

  And it means I can sort of sneak food more often if they can't see me or some snacking along the way.

• 48:52Speaker 02

  The final version is the freestyler, someone who refuses to follow recipes, measures everything by eye, considers instructions a personal attack.

• 48:59Jake Bhardwaj?

  Oh yeah, well, that's definitely me then. So I'm a blend of the soloist and the freestyler. So I'm a free solo, that's me.

• 49:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think I'm similar, but I think I'd add a fourth thing in, which is I'm a bit of a backseat chef. If I see someone cooking, I'm like, mm, do you know what? I'd stir it that way around. Or do you know what, you sieve it like this.

• 49:18Jake Bhardwaj?

  Or you'd go over secretly and like do it.

• 49:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, you don't want to saute your garlic like that, mate. Yeah, I think that's why I probably live alone.

• 49:27Jake Bhardwaj?

  So whatever type of mindset you have, check out Tesco Kitchen. There are loads of great celebs on there like Ed Gamble, Phil Wang and Bella Mackie.

• 49:36Speaker 02

  And Joe, of course.

• 49:37Jake Bhardwaj?

  To see me make the world's best lamb kebabs, head to Tesco Kitchen YouTube channel after this podcast.

• 49:47Jake Bhardwaj?

  So we've spoken a lot about your busted days.

• 49:49Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 49:50Jake Bhardwaj?

  But you're now, as we go back to the questionnaire.

• 49:54Speaker 03

  Actor. Yeah.

• 49:56Jake Bhardwaj?

  Like when did that go from busted musician, singer songwriter or that? And then go, oh, I want to be an actor now?

• 50:04Speaker 03

  Well, I mean, it started at school. When I went to Sylvia's, I was okay at singing, but everyone else was better than me. Like, but acting, I didn't see anyone else like me in that classroom. There was other people who were kind of like, who were doing it, but they were very different to me. And I always felt like I could bring something that they couldn't. And not better than them, but from a very different angle to something. And I loved it. But then busted kind of took off and took over my life. And it's only when it all ended and to be honest, when I got clean, that I was like, what am I going to do with my life now? Like I can't go anywhere near music because I'll die. You know, if I go anywhere near that industry ever again.

• 50:48Speaker 03

  So that was like, this was after busted, after, before busted and everything. So there was a period of my life where I didn't know what to do. And then, and then it kind of dawned on me that I had another option. And I eventually went back to drama school for two years, like when I was like 37 or something. 36, 37 and everyone was like 20. It was a very weird experience, but I loved it. I got a lot, a lot out of it, you know, and it kind of, it kind of cemented in me that there's something which I want to pursue.

• 51:20Jake Bhardwaj?

  The amount of times that I get pushed, your version of, what is it? In Rocky Horror Picture Show.

• 51:30Speaker 03

  No, I wasn't in that.

• 51:32Jake Bhardwaj?

  No, you sing it. Oh, Kit, what is it?

• 51:35Speaker 03

  What?

• 51:35Jake Bhardwaj?

  You do sing it, Candyman.

• 51:37Speaker 03

  No.

• 51:38Jake Bhardwaj?

  Kitty Cat, Kitty Club, Kitty Cat.

• 51:41Speaker 03

  The Kit Kat Club.

• 51:41Jake Bhardwaj?

  Kit Kat Club.

• 51:42Speaker 03

  In Cabaret.

• 51:43Jake Bhardwaj?

  Cabaret, in the amount of TikToks I get pushed.

• 51:47Speaker 02

  There's crossover.

• 51:49Jake Bhardwaj?

  I'm like, fucking hell, is that the best gig that you've?

• 51:52Speaker 03

  That was my, that was my favourite gig for a long time. I mean, I saw Eddie Redmayne play that role when it opened and it was like, I love theatre so much, I'll go as much as I possibly can. And I don't think I've ever had such a kind of like transformative experience as watching him play that role. Like watching Eddie Redmayne transform into this character was, it will always stick in my head as one of the most amazing theatrical experiences I've ever seen.

• 52:20Jake Bhardwaj?

  Yeah.

• 52:21Speaker 03

  And so to be asked to play that role, well, to put myself out there enough to go to the audition and audition for it and then to get it was, was just an absolute dream.

• 52:31Jake Bhardwaj?

  You look unbelievable.

• 52:32Speaker 03

  Mate, I loved it, mate.

• 52:33Jake Bhardwaj?

  Every time, I still get pushed it now and even I've watched it.

• 52:37Speaker 03

  I've been at it since May as well.

• 52:39Jake Bhardwaj?

  Even though I've watched it a hundred times, I still go, you're fucking hell. This is great, you can keep going with that.

• 52:45Speaker 03

  Mate, it was amazing, mate, it was amazing. And also like, there was something that I kind of like, I don't know, I'd never done anything which was nothing like me, you know? I've done roles where it's like, I see me in this, you know, I see a way in. Because it's a bit like, mate, this guy was nothing like me, you know? And like, I had to really kind of develop this whole different person. And it was the most fun thing ever. Like every night I'd just be like, it was really intense, really kind of like, Cabaret's quite a dark show, like it's quite, you know, it's about the Nazis taking over Berlin in the 30s. Like it's pretty dark, you know, but it's kind of hidden behind this, you know? So I got to do this guy and this guy, you know, which is just like the most amazing dream role.

• 53:30Speaker 03

  It was brilliant, fucking hell.

• 53:32Speaker 02

  Is theatre more exciting to you than TV or film or?

• 53:35Speaker 03

  I've done more of it. I've done more of theatre than I have TV and film, but I love it all. I love anything where I can kind of go, right, okay, this is me for a while. I don't like, I've had a few experiences where you're like what they call a day player, when you go on to like a set where you're, you've got like a couple of scenes in something and I find that really difficult because you can't really build up a rapport. Everyone else knows each other, you don't, it's quite intimidating. And you've got like one day to prove yourself, wah. You know, that inner critic comes in and the red light goes on, you freak out a little bit. I don't like that. But anything I can get my teeth stuck into for a while and I can kind of like be absorbed in it, I can't think of anything better.

• 54:17Jake Bhardwaj?

  I mentioned earlier about you always having been part of something.

• 54:21Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 54:22Jake Bhardwaj?

  Whether it was busted, McBusted, but also half of the Willises, you and Emma. And you've spoken about like a long-term marriage.

• 54:34Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 54:35Jake Bhardwaj?

  Takes work.

• 54:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, man.

• 54:37Jake Bhardwaj?

  There's a, a long slog, you know, it's not all just happy rainbows and.

• 54:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, you don't fall in love and then that's it forever. You've got to work at that shit, yeah.

• 54:46Jake Bhardwaj?

  And how has that been trying to manage all the demons that you've spoken about? And you've been in rehab, your last time in rehab, was it 16, 17 years?

• 54:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, 17 years ago, that was last time.

• 54:57Jake Bhardwaj?

  And how long have you been with Emma?

• 54:59Speaker 03

  I've been with her 23, since I was 21, so 22 years.

• 55:06Jake Bhardwaj?

  So like, that's, she's obviously been the constant and a big role in that.

• 55:12Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 55:12Jake Bhardwaj?

  How much of a, is it that you want to look after yourself for her? Compared to, I want to look after myself for me that enables me to be good for her?

• 55:24Speaker 03

  Well, I think that's changed over time. I mean, I try, I try to do it for her, you know? The time before the last time I rehab, I went to rehab for her because I thought she was going to leave me. And so I tried to do it for her. And even the very last time I went to rehab, she told me she wouldn't marry me if I kept on like this. So there was a little bit of her in my decision making to go. But I think.

• 55:53Speaker 03

  But I think ultimately, I I wanted to, I didn't wanna be that guy anymore. You know, and it's kind of like, and that's really, I think what changed. You know, is that is that I, every time I tried to do it for someone else, every time I tried to kind of like save something, it it never worked because I I I was still in the equation and I was ignoring that part. You know, I was just trying to kind of look good for them or do something for someone else. But I um then it was it was like, I can't do this anymore to me. You know, and I'm I'm not because I cared about me, but because I I couldn't bear doing this every day. So um so I wanted to change for me.

• 56:36Speaker 03

  And then and even now, you know, like now, um I am a better um husband, like I bloody hope so. You know, like I'm I'm a better husband, I'm a better father, I'm a better work colleague because I do it for me, you know, like um. And I would anyway, you know, I hate to think of a life without any of those things, you know, but like I still wouldn't ever wanna be that guy. So even if one of them was removed, I still, I don't think I would go back to being that guy, you know.

• 57:03Jake Bhardwaj?

  Well, I've heard, I've I've heard people say that to me so many times, of like, you need to work on yourself.

• 57:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 57:09Jake Bhardwaj?

  In order to be the best version as a dad, as a partner, as a friend, as all that lot. But then I have in a voice that goes, well, that's so selfish. That's so, I go, that's so selfish. I no, I need to be doing what's best for them, them and them, not working on me.

• 57:25Speaker 03

  It's also it's quite. It's it's a bit of a get out of jail free card for you as well, right? Cause it's like, it's like, I don't have to focus on me if I look like I'm focusing on others.

• 57:33Jake Bhardwaj?

  Yeah.

• 57:33Speaker 03

  Do you know what I mean? So it's like, it's a bit of a deflection maybe. And that was for me, that's what I'm just saying for me, it was a bit of a deflection, I'm like, no, because I'm being a good person for them.

• 57:42Jake Bhardwaj?

  Yeah.

• 57:42Speaker 03

  So I can ignore the fact.

• 57:43Jake Bhardwaj?

  Then I don't have to deal with it.

• 57:45Speaker 03

  I don't have to deal with my inner, my inner fucking feelings of self hatred, you know, because because I'm because I'm getting past them for someone else. But then actually, what's that like to live with within yourself? Do you know what I mean? Like, it's it's quite unbearable at times, you know. And I and I and I have moments where I slip back into that as well, you know, so I had to really be careful about that. But then um I think working on that stuff was really hard, it was kind of the last piece of the puzzle really. Because um putting down drink and drugs was difficult. But then I think learning how to live as a human who likes himself is is more difficult, you know, because um I don't know what I'm trying to say here.

• 58:27Jake Bhardwaj?

  No, I think I get it that if you you you have an addiction to drink and drugs, that's like an objective marker that you go, well, I can just stop that. Like you said, you can't just stop that, I don't mean like, I mean, I go, well, I don't take that and it'll make me feel better, healthy, like all that lot. But it's more nuanced to then try and work out different ways of of trying to sort.

• 58:51Speaker 03

  Well, I think it's all, it's all about kind of like, um it's about building a life you know wanna, no longer want to escape from.

• 58:59Jake Bhardwaj?

  Hmm.

• 58:59Speaker 03

  Do you know what I mean? It's like, that's what it's always been for what what I've learned about the last kind of like nine years specifically, like since my last relapse, which was nine years ago. Um I realized that I wasn't doing that stuff, you know, I wasn't working on me, I was just like fighting to not take drugs, you know, and like and I was winning. You know, so I was like, mate, I'm not taking drugs, everything's all right, you know. And I'm a bit of an asshole sometimes, but that's like, at least I'm not taking drugs, you know, but then it was like, and eventually I took drugs. You know, so I'm like, right, okay, what wasn't I doing? And and that and and and why do people do these things, right? It's because we wanna, like, if you think about all the terms, get off your head, get out your nut or whatever, it's because we don't wanna be in there anymore.

• 59:42Speaker 03

  You know, because it's unbearable or it's really loud or it's filled of negative voices, you know, like. And that's and I have those voices every now and again, right? And it's just like, and I think building a life where you don't have to escape from anything is is what I am trying to do, you know, and I'm still working on that. But it's much easier than it was, you know, and I think it's just about, you know. I used to hear people talk about loving yourself and I thought, oh, fuck off. You know, like, mate, like, that's the worst thing you wanna be is bloke who fucking loves himself. You know, but you have to, you know, and it's like, and it sounds really lame, but like you, like, I no longer hate myself.

• 1:00:26Speaker 03

  Which is like, which if I think back to twenty years ago, I couldn't ever imagine that, you know, because I'd done some awful shit. And like, and I was a guy that should hate himself, you know, but now I don't do those things and I've worked on it enough to not be that guy. You know, so um and it's exactly what I said, it's about building a life you no longer wanna escape from.

• 1:00:45Jake Bhardwaj?

  I'm fascinated by you.

• 1:00:47Speaker 03

  Oh, mate.

• 1:00:48Jake Bhardwaj?

  Because so much of what you've spoken about, I'm like, fuck it, I feel like that. Oh, yeah, that sounds like me. Oh my god, yeah, I can do that. And then I'm like, come on, tell me how I work it all out then.

• 1:01:01Speaker 03

  Oh, mate.

• 1:01:01Jake Bhardwaj?

  What's happened is gone, oh, let's get him into the the therapy room.

• 1:01:07Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 1:01:07Jake Bhardwaj?

  And then I've gone, fuck, I'm doing the reverse therapy again. Where I'm like, oh, I'm meant to be asking the questions, but actually I just want all the answers from you. And it's like, I just think you're an incredibly impressive human.

• 1:01:21Speaker 03

  Oh, mate, well, thank you, mate.

• 1:01:23Jake Bhardwaj?

  Has obviously gone through.

• 1:01:23Speaker 03

  Appreciate that.

• 1:01:25Jake Bhardwaj?

  A load of shit, um and a load of good stuff as well. And then to see how you've now become this human and the way that you talk about it and how much help you're clearly doing for other people.

• 1:01:41Speaker 03

  Oh, mate, I appreciate it. Thank you, mate.

• 1:01:43Jake Bhardwaj?

  I just think you're fucking brilliant.

• 1:01:46Speaker 02

  Um, Matt, before we go, we have been doing a bit of psychological research.

• 1:01:52Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:01:53Speaker 02

  So much so, I should be able to say psychological without stumbling block. But um we found a technique that is based on stuff off of psychology whereby whereby we stop.

• 1:02:04Jake Bhardwaj?

  It was Jung, wasn't it?

• 1:02:05Speaker 02

  We we we we stopped looking and examining current Matt and we start looking at future Matt and we see how those things might align. Um if you were up for it, we might take you through different steps of the um not so distant and then very distant future and see where you think you might be at, okay?

• 1:02:24Jake Bhardwaj?

  So so back to the future?

• 1:02:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:27Jake Bhardwaj?

  So like taking him to the year three thousand?

• 1:02:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:30Speaker 03

  This is all very exciting.

• 1:02:31Jake Bhardwaj?

  Okay, so you you.

• 1:02:32Speaker 03

  This is my kind of shit.

• 1:02:33Jake Bhardwaj?

  You're best equipped to do that, aren't you?

• 1:02:35Speaker 03

  Absolutely, of anyone in the world.

• 1:02:36Jake Bhardwaj?

  You should have mapped this all out already, cause you wrote the song with the triple-breasted women.

• 1:02:40Speaker 03

  Completely, we've been there already.

• 1:02:41Jake Bhardwaj?

  Yeah, okay.

• 1:02:41Speaker 02

  In fact, three breasts will do three different steps. We'll do what a step. So step one, Joe, step one, where are we taking Matt?

• 1:02:48Jake Bhardwaj?

  We're on stop one, twenty thirty.

• 1:02:50Speaker 03

  Twenty thirty?

• 1:02:51Speaker 02

  What's Matt doing in twenty thirty?

• 1:02:53Speaker 03

  What's Matt doing in twenty thirty? Um.

• 1:02:56Jake Bhardwaj?

  Have you reinvented yourself again?

• 1:02:58Speaker 03

  No, I think I'll be still kind of doing what I'm doing. The thing is, like, I feel like, um, don't get me wrong, like, I love doing what I do, right? But um but I I sometimes um wanna take a little bit of a step away from

• 1:03:16Speaker 03

  public life.

• 1:03:17Jake Bhardwaj?

  Hmm.

• 1:03:18Speaker 03

  Weird thing to say out loud, but like I do feel myself getting less and less wanting to be in that world, you know, and um and uh so, yeah, maybe starting to kind of do other stuff.

• 1:03:29Jake Bhardwaj?

  Stop two, twenty forty.

• 1:03:33Speaker 03

  Twenty forty.

• 1:03:34Jake Bhardwaj?

  You're fifty seven.

• 1:03:35Speaker 03

  Um I wanna be retired, I wanna be playing golf somewhere beautiful.

• 1:03:40Jake Bhardwaj?

  Hmm.

• 1:03:40Speaker 03

  Um I'd like to move to Spain.

• 1:03:42Jake Bhardwaj?

  Oh.

• 1:03:42Speaker 03

  Or somewhere like that, do you know what I mean? Or Portugal or somewhere where there's loads of great golf.

• 1:03:46Jake Bhardwaj?

  Hmm.

• 1:03:46Speaker 03

  Um that's what I'd like to do. But then golf is a bit of a phase for me right now, so maybe I'll be bored of that. Um but um but I do tend to do that a lot in my life, but I'm obsessed with it right now. So the idea, the goal is, do you know what, I'd love to be somewhere nice weather all the time, high golf plots.

• 1:04:06Speaker 02

  And finally, stop three, where do we land?

• 1:04:08Speaker 03

  I wonder where we're going now.

• 1:04:09Jake Bhardwaj?

  Year three thousand.

• 1:04:10Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:04:11Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:04:11Jake Bhardwaj?

  You've somehow like survived, you're future Matt and you've you've nicked my time machine.

• 1:04:17Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:04:17Jake Bhardwaj?

  And taken it to year three thousand and you send back a message to this you.

• 1:04:22Speaker 03

  Oh, my god.

• 1:04:23Jake Bhardwaj?

  From future you.

• 1:04:24Speaker 03

  Right, okay.

• 1:04:25Jake Bhardwaj?

  What are you saying to, what's future you saying to you you?

• 1:04:28Speaker 03

  Um that busted with profits and it's exactly like what we wrote it as.

• 1:04:35Jake Bhardwaj?

  So we're all underwater.

• 1:04:36Speaker 03

  We're all underwater.

• 1:04:37Jake Bhardwaj?

  Like how we started.

• 1:04:38Speaker 03

  Like how we started, exactly.

• 1:04:40Jake Bhardwaj?

  We always used to be fish, didn't we?

• 1:04:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, apparently so.

• 1:04:42Jake Bhardwaj?

  What do you mean apparently?

• 1:04:43Speaker 03

  Uh, well, I mean, if you believe that.

• 1:04:45Jake Bhardwaj?

  What do you mean, if you believe that? We were a fish. We were a fish, weren't we, Jake?

• 1:04:49Speaker 03

  Why are we fish?

• 1:04:50Speaker 02

  I don't know if we direct, I don't know if you can go back that far and say we were fish.

• 1:04:54Jake Bhardwaj?

  I literally wrote in my books and we were fish.

• 1:04:56Speaker 02

  Oh, if you've written it down, then that's.

• 1:04:57Speaker 03

  Well, it's a fucking Sunday Times bestseller.

• 1:05:00Speaker 02

  You've written it down. He's written it down.

• 1:05:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:05:02Speaker 02

  Um was was the underwater thing a sort of climate change cry of we're underwater because the ice?

• 1:05:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think so. I mean, to be honest, I don't really remember, I was drunk when I wrote that. Um we were, we were really pissed, we went to this nightclub in Southend called Tots Two Thousand, which was um it was uh it was uh two pound for a pint and a shot. My kind of place, brilliant. And we came back drunk and we wrote year three thousand, so I don't really remember a lot about it.

• 1:05:29Speaker 02

  Was it linked to Tots Two Thousand? You thought year three thousand?

• 1:05:32Speaker 03

  No, the reason it happened was because when we we got back and James's family were still up and they were watching something in the other room and Robbie Williams's Millennium was playing. And James was like, let's write a song for the next millennium.

• 1:05:46Jake Bhardwaj?

  Oh.

• 1:05:47Speaker 03

  I was like, oh, that's a good idea. What? And we were like, the year three thousand, we were like, right, okay, great, so we wrote down year three thousand and started writing this song. Yeah.

• 1:05:55Jake Bhardwaj?

  That's great.

• 1:05:56Speaker 02

  That's brilliant.

• 1:05:57Jake Bhardwaj?

  To hear that now.

• 1:05:58Speaker 02

  Glad we did this bit.

• 1:06:01Speaker 02

  Wouldn't have got that.

• 1:06:06Jake Bhardwaj?

  Matt, in all seriousness, I need to reiterate, you are incredible.

• 1:06:11Speaker 03

  Oh mate, I've loved it, mate.

• 1:06:13Jake Bhardwaj?

  We have done very little in what we wanted to do about trying to silence your inner voice and do that. That's always something to think of. But what you've come on and the way you articulate your story, the learnings from it, and what you continue to do personally helps me. And I know full well it'll be helping loads of other people. And you articulate it in a way that is just not wanky. Please don't use that as a quote on any of your books or podcasts. Oh, this guy said I'm not wanky.

• 1:06:51Speaker 02

  There's been a misprint, just not wanky.

• 1:06:54Jake Bhardwaj?

  What I meant was, it's like, there's people out there that sort of like, make it hard for me to relate or understand. You talk like a normal person.

• 1:07:04Speaker 03

  Oh mate, well.

• 1:07:05Jake Bhardwaj?

  And I go, fucking hell, that makes sense. I can do it. So, thank you for coming on.

• 1:07:10Speaker 03

  Mate, thank you for having me, mate. I love it. I love it. Thanks. I've had a great time. It's good.

• 1:07:15Jake Bhardwaj?

  But, you know, we haven't quite achieved what we wanted to do with Matt, did we? But we still need to give him a badge, because it'd be remiss of us if we don't give him a badge. And a lollipop. We've got to do the lollipop in the badge. We do the badge.

• 1:07:28Speaker 02

  Badge, we've gone four. I've got Matt's back, and that's for you.

• 1:07:32Speaker 03

  Love that. Thank you very much.

• 1:07:34Speaker 02

  That's for you.

• 1:07:35Speaker 03

  I'm it. Amazing. Thank you very much. Isn't it funny, right? There's one red one. And I had to go, what does that tell you about me, Mr. Psychologist?

• 1:07:46Jake Bhardwaj?

  It tells you.

• 1:07:49Speaker 02

  Appetite of a danger.

• 1:07:51Speaker 03

  Is that what it is? Big red button shit?

• 1:07:53Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:07:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. It looks like the most nuclear one. I love that one, please.

• 1:07:57Jake Bhardwaj?

  Yeah. Matt Willis, everybody. Matt Willis.

• 1:08:00Speaker 03

  Thank you very much.

• 1:08:02Jake Bhardwaj?

  Janet will see you out.

• 1:08:04Speaker 03

  Thank you very much.

• 1:08:04Jake Bhardwaj?

  Thank you.

• 1:08:05Speaker 03

  Thank you, guys. Thank you.

• 1:08:09Jake Bhardwaj?

  If you want to join the doctor's waiting list, then please subscribe to our YouTube channel and follow us on Instagram, at We'll See You Now Show. Remember, unless it's not clear enough, I'm not a real doctor. If you need any professional help, you'll find a link to great support services on our Instagram. I've been Joe Marler, he's been Jake Bhardwaj. By the way, mate, I love you.

• 1:08:31Speaker 02

  Wow, I love you too, man.

• 1:08:32Jake Bhardwaj?

  No, I really love you. I love working with you. I feel very lucky that we met and get to sit in a pretend office and pretend to be super psychologists.

• 1:08:44Speaker 02

  I have to say, I love every episode that we do, but sat there watching you chat to Matt in a way that just had me fully engrossed, I just thought, I love my job.

• 1:08:54Jake Bhardwaj?

  And, um.

• 1:08:55Speaker 03

  Fucking hell.

• 1:08:57Jake Bhardwaj?

  Alf, are you all right?

• 1:08:58Speaker 02

  Love my life. Yeah.

• 1:09:00Jake Bhardwaj?

  Anyway, see you next time.

• 1:09:04Speaker 03

  Oh, you triple one.

• 1:09:07Jake Bhardwaj?

  Oh, man. Oh, Joe Marler, he's been Jake Bhardwaj. We love each other. That's Alf.

• 1:09:11Speaker 02

  Bye.

• 1:09:12Jake Bhardwaj?

  And it's been Joe Marler. We'll see you now. Goodbye.

• 1:09:16Speaker 03

  I'm so sorry I'm here.

• 1:09:20Speaker 05

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